The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[alpha.charlie]

I literally do not know what to do, all i have ever wanted to do is flyJust wait for a bit, if you start training in two years time you'll be qualified by time you're 30 and still have a potential 35 year career!

What to do in the meantime? Save lots and lots and lots of money. If you're lucky enough to find one try and get a job within an airline and start making contacts like your life depends on it.

[GuyAK]

Cheers for that advice. Also, what about abroad, are pilot carers in the sh*t everywhere. I haven’t really got anything holding me to the UK. I know America is in a bit of a mess but what about anywhere else?

[TheBeak]

Now you are on to something Guy, Pilot carers are a great idea! Until the employment market improves globally though they wont be needed as their aren't as many pilots to care for.

[The African Dude]

Guy,

If it was pilot "careers" that you meant, then yes, the situation is quite bad in many parts of the world. Some areas such as Asia, however, seem to be doing well at a glance, but who really knows.

However, as has been said many times before, aviation is a cyclic industry - it has good times, and it has bad times (such as now).

The advice from alpha.charlie is worth taking on board - save your money, try to get a job with an airline or in the aviation industry, meet as many people as possible and if you can afford it, gradually start doing flying training with your savings. If the market stays like this you might be better off going to America, getting a flying instructor's licence and teaching people to fly in the sunshine. Whatever makes you happy - just whatever you do, don't hand over any large piles of money to anybody in the near future.

And for God's sake learn to use the Search function!! :ok:

Good luck!

[Jamer]

Dear all,

just thought I'd throw my opinion in. This thread used
to be a place for dreams and excitement, now it is a miserable dump. I have just finished the New Zealand phase and only a few hours to
go to irt. The last year of my life has been amazing. Yes I'm massively in debt, yes I may loose my house if I can't repay my loan but do I care? No. Would I do it again. Most definately. Just my experience chaps. I'm sure the other cadets from my course who have become very close friends would agree but I doubt they'll be looking here because of what a bleak, soul-destroying place it has become due to their supposedly supportive peers.

So here's to those inexperienced cadets cleaning your windows and serving your coffees and who knows maybe we'll all have jobs one day.

Good luck to you all.

Signing off and still smiling, jamer x

[VdV]

jamer, im going to say this, and it comes from the bottom of my heart, I hate you. I was a ctc cadet and i lost everything, EVERYTHING! Im going bankrupt, i have no bloody job and you dare say you dont care about the debt. You had better pray i never meet you.

[TFlexMax80]

Throwing away a house for a year of flying and drinking in the Tron?

Muppetry of the highest order.

The dreams and excitement of which you speak came from the fact that the course was regarded as the golden ticket to a permanent contract in the RHS of a shiny jet. That opportunity has for now, and possibly permanently disappeared.

This thread is no longer about passing on the gen about how to pass the various stages of selection. It is about the lucky ones amongst us who happened to escape the system just in time and get a job, and those that weren't so lucky, finished a matter of weeks later, and now find themselves trapped in the cycle of temporary contract work, warning the starry eyed wannabes that gambling a house (whoever it happens to belong to) on the CTC Wings Scheme is not worth it at the moment.

Jamer, you and your course mates can stick your heads in the sand and ignore this bleak, soul destroying forum. And whilst you complete your training I would be doing exactly the same, for you have no other choice. But 70k for a flying holiday in NZ is nothing to be proud of. And yes you should care about being in debt. Because the thing about which you profess to care so little, is part of the reason you won't see a permanent flying contract in the near future,

As one particular thread on the CTC forum suggests, many of us ex-cadets are not happy at all about the future for those that follow behind us. We comment on here not for self-gratification, but because we understand what it means to have to make repayments on a massive loan in the here and now. Not some time in the future, but now.

[FlyBoyFryer]

If you take the plunge now, and at any time in the forseeable future, I promise that the only things you will have at the end of the course are a worthless shiny blue book, and memories of Furnace and Firecats in The Tron. Nothing else.


And yet, John Smith, I think you're also incorrect in the above. The truth (at least for me) lies somewhere in between what people like you and Jamer have to say. Don't get me wrong, I agree with some of the comments you've just made. It bizarre how cavalier some people can be with their money and security?! I'm sure they won't be that way inclined when the baliffs arrive, as you say.

Times are indeed tough but there are still individuals out there who are securing gainful employment. They may be few and far between... but the fact remains. BALPA's healine article from Oct/Nov 09 "A Change for the Worse" sums it all up when it comes to Cadet schemes and the myriad of associated concerns.

CTC still offers a scheme where opportunities are presented. The terms may have changed but if you're prepared to work with them... they're still valid.

Where I have to agree with Jamer is how this forum has slowly but surely degraded into one which shows little or no support for aspiring pilots and where viscous rumours are rife (it's amazing how inaccurate reports about CTC are until someone volunteers the truth - the starting point is always way off!). For every pearl of wisdom, there seems to be ten or so kick in the balls. I used to pay attention to what others like WWW and the rest of them have to say... but now all they do is state there's absolutely sweet FA out there. The predicted timescales get longer, the rhetoric increases, and self-congratulations abound over how right they were it was always going to end in tears. The way they phrase their comments these days, it sounds almost illogical to maintain a positive outlook. Instead, we should simply give up hope.

It's this lack of unity and cohesion that breeds malcontent. Ultimately, it spells the end of any valued contribution from this forum for me. It pains me to say this.

Rest assured I'll read your response to this post (if you so choose) but now that I've said my piece, I'll leave it at that.

Lastly, I sincerely hope we all get what we deserve after the time, money and efforts spent.

All the best to you and Jamer alike.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

I hope Jamer is a troll, otherwise I fear for the standard of person now being given a blue book....

WBV

[Tiger_ Moth]

Jamer,

Your post is so ridiculous that I'm afraid it just has to be shot down in flames.

Yes, this thread used to be a place of "dreams and excitement". However, as things have turned out this is no longer the case. Now it reflects reality, so yes, it is a dump now, but NEWSFLASH: the airline industry is a dump. It is a rape-fest. Whoever will prostitute themselves for the lowest price will get the job, no matter how grossly incompetent (within reason).

Jamer, you try "signing off and still smiling" from your soul destroying office job which you'll no doubt have in a few months and you see if that's still the case in one year. Because it won't be. And if you're particularly resilient you try it a year from then because that's how long it's gonna take. At least. There is nothing in this world which annoys me as much as mindless optimism which you have just displayed. You are meant to be a professional pilot soon so you should be capable of looking at a set of facts and extrapolating a trend from it: the trend is bad. You are going into a world of sh** to quote Full Metal Jacket.

You think we're all so "negative". Oh why do we have to be so nasty!?!?!
I'm not being nasty, I'm telling you this for your own good: This is the way it is. You try keeping your ridiculous "positive" attitude in 18 months from now when you're still unemployed unless your daddy gives you £34K to get done over some more.

You see how happy you are when you've lost you're job, house, girlfriend and life within a week. With no prospects in sight of a recovery from this.

You see how "positive" you are then.

PS: it's definitely, not definately and what's with the "x", I'm not your girlfriend!?!

[pug]

I used to pay attention to what others like WWW and the rest of them have to say... but now all they do is state there's absolutely sweet FA out there. The predicted timescales get longer, the rhetoric increases, and self-congratulations abound over how right they were it was always going to end in tears

Isnt that a good thing? Surely these posters make no monetary gain for giving such advice, yet go on OAA's forum they seem to have a paid 'advisor' on there suggesting not to read pprune!!!

Im sorry but anyone who invested their money and time in such a course recently needs sectioning! I have a very good friend who was 'lucky' to come out of OAA a couple of years ago and get into FR to pay for a type rating. Bear in mind this was the time that BA were recruiting (whom he pinned so may hopes on getting into!!) and it has gone down the swanny!

My instructor (who has nothing to gain) always tell me, never pay more that 40K for your ATPL, particularly never go to an intergrated school. Now he does not do the ME/IR anymore, but when he did a number of students ended up at BA.... This is by no means a well known FTO either!

As for not being worried about losing YOUR (parents?) house. Please tell me when you get an airline job and i will make sure i never fly with you. Surely excellent risk analysis is a certain pre-requisit for any pilot?

[SA242]

Jamer,

Having gone through the CTC course a good long time before you probably thought to do it and still without a permanent contract with an airline I am now into my second year flying for, I frankly feel sick to the pit of my stomach reading such unutterable bollocks. You so obviously illustrate how the quality of cadets has gone downhill as unsecured loans dried up. Myself and my ex-course mates are in financial turmoil and for what??! 4 sector nackering days with no idea if you have a job to pay for food almost every month. Son you shouldn't be anywhere near an aircraft let alone one with 156 people down the back. This kind of post scares me to death and illustrates just how warped the minds of the new wannabes from CTC and OAT are who have secured their loans against houses and other valuables. I wouldn't believe for a second that your age even remotely resembles 27 - this is the kind of attitude I expect from a 17-19 year old with no concept of money or reality. What an insult you are to us ex-CTC cadets who are heading for bankruptcy.

[one post only!]

Jamer, at the moment you are in the training high, its going well, you are living with good friends having a riot and life seems very good. To be honest, enjoy it and try not to worry about what is waiting for you as you need to concentrate on your flying! However do start to give it some thought from a financial point of view. PPP and all that!
However, if you really really don't care about losing your house I will buy it from you for £50 today. PM me and we will arrange the deal. No? So you do care really, I am sure you do. I understand where you come from but don't be surprised at the strength of the replies you have received as some people are experiencing horrendous heartache at the moment and flippant comments like yours only twist the knife further.

FBF(and Jamer), Not everyone is having a go! 10 kicks in the balls to every pearl of wisdom, bit like the job market. People are telling others how it is at the moment.
People may be posting on here saying timescales are getting longer etc etc. Its because they are trying to provide others with information so that they can plan and see what's happening. How is that not supporting aspiring pilots!?!?! Just because you don't like the information you are given you should not just start to ignore it. Read about the mount Erebus accident and see what a false mental model can do!!!

What would you prefer. Unity and cohesion full of lies. Train it's great. You will be out of the hold pool soon and you will will be on £65K before you know it with full benefits. Come on brothers its wonderful....
Or the truth so people can plan?!?!

P.S those conditions you are prepared to work with FBF I am trying to improve. At the moment I am cajoling the union to fight for you. Telling everyone I can about what is happening to try and get them to fight for you. I have already said I would strike tomorrow to defend your future T&C's. I am emailing the union, posting on forums etc trying to help. I think you will find we are supportive Jamer!!! Sometimes I think, do you want to be saved though!?! We try and you tell us stop being so gloomy as it breads malcontent!!!

I tried to stay positive but didn't so you will probably disregard my post. Well I was only trying to help. Part of me wonders why I bother spending my own time doing so?! Do you know what, I don't think I will anymore. Bye.

[R T Jones]

Listening to ex-ctc cadets on this thread has made me realise my thoughts are not entirely unreasonable!
Jamer, I really hope this is just some kind of a wind up. You try reading what you've written here when you've sat in the holdpool for 6 months, with your loan starting to feel like a grand piano suspended just above your head. I don't want to hurl abuse towards you as there has been plenty already done, just wanting to try and understand how on earth you feel this way.
I also echo comments on this thread that anyone looking to start flying training now and for the previous 6 months must have no problems with money. The job I currently do, working 50hours a week will just about earn me £1000k after tax, so I could just about make repayments. Just the small fact I wouldn't have any money left over to have a life! When I joined, it was a golden ticket, the entire amount given to you without so much as a credit check, when you finish, a choice of airlines to go and a permanent contact at the end. A great, great shame that this is no longer the case :(

[sharpclassic]

Jamer,

You are a possibly the biggest moron whose post I have ever had the displeasure of reading on here.

Once again, another ex CTCer here (CP-early20s) and I couldn't agree more with what the previous few posts have said. I'm very impressed with onepostonly's composure to be able to put things so rationally. I, like the others, will not give you that courtesy.

Yes, this forum used to be an upbeat place, encouraging people to go for selection, the best way to approach it etc. but this was when times were good. When airlines couldn't give out proper full time contracts quick enough to crew their massively expanding fleets during an economic boom.

The whole reason that the very people who are currently in the position that you long to be in are making this such a gloomy and depressing place is because we know what it's like and we are trying to do a favour to all those people contemplating starting a training course and putting themselves in your position. We are the good guys here.

As for your comments about losing your house and not caring, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. The day you realise that being an airline pilot is not some kind of Disney dream will be the day that the Captain has been incapacitated and you are frozen with terror by the idea of making an approach on your own into some West African **** hole, trying, but failing, to dodge the biggest thunderstorms you've ever seen.

I pray to God I'm not on your flight then.

If you honestly stand by what you said, have the balls (or ovaries) to come back to what we've all said. If you don't I suggest that you start looking for another full time job. I hear Greggs are going to have more stores than McDonalds very soon.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There's not much more I can add to the above.

All I would say is that all Wannabes, on all schemes, following all paths continue to have my deepest sympathy and my best wishes.

What has come to pass, whilst expected, is truly awful and has the ability to wreck peoples lives. It is for this reason that I have always thought it appropriate that, on this forum, the dangers and downsides were always clearly communicated.



WWW

[go around flaps15]

I don't think the issue with other PPRuNers is what its like to be a CTC cadet. I think the issue is what it's like to be a CTC cadet after the cadet has finished the course. Its the "what happened next............" that other PPRuNers take issue with.

[SA242]

chelsce, you are probably more stupid than Jamer. If thats at all possible. Unless you are the same person.

If you haven't noticed most if not almost ALL of the comments have been from people who are far more qualified to have an opinion on the issue than you are since almost all of them are EX-CTC. You are not in airline and haven't even finished the licence...you look like the clueless wannabe in this case. The advice been given out here is from people having done the course and have already entered airline flying or and WWW's case, a captain for one of the partners who flies with us regularaly. I think he knows.

I absolutely DESPAIR.

[SA242]

Hmmm greggs and mcdonalds...didnt know they were hiring. And yes....for some of us these are the places we are working at due to being LAID OFF.

And no one was bitter until you and the other lad jumped on here banging on about loosing houses and not particularly caring. Come back in a year and a half once you have sat in the hold pool for a year or two and it actually happens and post the same thing. We are in a financial nightmare and you two come on here clueless as ever claiming you wouldn't care. Lucky for some.

P.S. I wasn't joking in the first paragraph. Many are at present working at these exact types of companies after having already flown an airbus/boeing through CTC.

[sharpclassic]

Chelsce! Welcome to the firepit!

If we're honest, the likes of John Smith, SA242 and I couldn't care less about the likes of you and Jamer. We're know you're screwed and there's nothing you can do about it. Like all the other cadets in the hold pool, you now have no choice. You're stuck with it. It's not your fault, you just have to deal with it.

The reason we're speaking up is to stop anyone out there who is thinking of starting the course in the non too distant future from doing so. Out of all the people who have posted here recently, I have the upmost respect for GuyAK who has taken ours, and others, advice and decided to stay well clear for the time being.

Well done to GuyAK. Well done for having the maturity, common sense, intelligence and guts to step away from something that you've always wanted to do. In years to come, it will be the likes of you who will be sat on a beach somewhere (either on a long haul trip or through the millions you've made by going into another career), looking back with great pride at this decision you've made. I truly and honestly mean all that.

What John Smith has said is totally correct. For the likes of Wingus and Dingus to sit there in your current position and claim that everything is great and encourage people to continue to sign up is truly incredible. Too much time in the Dibden spin machine it seems.

This is not just aimed at CTC, it's aimed at every FTO under the sun. Stay clear. Stay well clear until you can see for sure that things are picking up in the way in which we'd all want.

[Jamer]

Dear all,

just wanted to apologise if I may have offended anyone with my perhaps slightly biased view particularly being slightly ott with the whole house loosing scenario, so again apologies. It was just my way of venting my frustrations I suppose. I am not stupid. I know the Market is in a bad way and perhaps my opinion will change as time passes as a jobless pilot but we will just have to wait and see. So particular apologies to
other former cadets of ctc who are finding things difficult. I only have the ctc propaganda to go on as to what former cadets are up to. Needless to say they don't talk about loosing houses and bankrupcy.

Anyway i'll stay positive and the point I was making is that I have no regrets about ctc at this point.

Whilst I understand where people are coming from I just think it's a shame people are dropping out of possible training due to the opinions expressed on this forum.

I've said my piece now people and without my Tongue in my cheek so perhaps any replies may be less abusive.

Good luck.

[Jamer]

I can't be bothered with this anymore. I actually feel bad about some of my comments and yet the abuse continues.

Everyone abuses each other with the protection of a keyboard and screen when they definitely wouldn't have the balls to say it to someones face. So you can
just get on with it.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

It's not a shame if people are dropping out of applying to CTC due to comments on here, it's a very good, sensible, smart thing to do. The market is terrible at the moment. Come back in a couple of years and see how it's going then.

WBV

[Tiger_ Moth]

Jamer says:

I just think it's a shame people are dropping out of possible training due to the opinions expressed on this forum.

No it isn't. They are saving themselves from ruining their lives No one's saying they should never do it, just not now. And these aren't opinions on these forums, these are facts. It is a fact that a lot of ex ctc will be going bankrupt in the next few months, myself included. It is a fact that there are hardly any jobs. These are not opinions.

You say that there's no point in having a go at you, but there is. As someone else said, this thread can dissuade people from making a horrendous mistake. This isn't about CTC, I'm not disputing that their training is good. This is about the state of the industry. You can't expect to make outrageous, naieve and stupid statements about not caring if you lose your house and not expect to get flamed for it.

People like you don't seem to understand the difference between being negative and being realistic. Myself and many others on this forum are giving realistic advice to people thinking of starting training now. Just because we're saying don't train now, it doesn't mean we are negative, we are simply telling them that things are bad now. You seem to think this is not being supportive. I disagree, I think it is being supportive.

Although your comments are infuriating, I do feel sorry for you and people in your situation but you have to man up and face reality.

Everyone abuses each other with the protection of a keyboard and screen when they definitely wouldn't have the balls to say it to someones face.

I definitely have the balls to say this to your face. If you were just down the road I'd gladly come round and tell you this. PM me your number if you want and I'll give you a ring.

[Kerosine]

I definitely have the balls to say this to your face. If you were just down the road I'd gladly come round and tell you this. PM me your number if you want and I'll give you a ring.
Silly bravado getting in the way of a sensible discussion again.

[VdV]

A sensible discussion kerosine? What are you, insane or a CTC manager? These guys needed to get flamed to teach them a damn lesson.

[Kerosine]

I thought sensible discussion was the normal communication medium between people who disagree on something?
This is not a parent/child or teacher/student relationship so find it quite arrogant that you would think it's your place to 'teach them a lesson'.

Edit: I can see however your previous posts indicate you're ex-CTC and going through what most would see as the worst case scenario of bankruptcy so understand why you would have such strong feelings on the subject.

[VdV]

It makes me angry that they profit from the ruination of others and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. They are evil, that's all there is to it. As there is no justice in this world the best we can hope for is that there is a God and he can judge them one day.

[Oishi Yoshio]

There is only one thing left to do in this situation...

BANZAI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MAY THE EMPEROR LIVE FOR TEN THOUSAND YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.indiana.edu/~ealc100/01samurai-kabuki.jpg

[one post only!]

Ok, good idea, but after consulting with a legal expert about the merits of your idea I was informed it could result in some legal problems for me!!! As a result I have been advised not to carry out a samuri sword attack on CTC managment!!!! Thanks for the input though.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Went through Dibden Manor years ago. Ongoing career..... BUT

The management perpetuated a tissue of lies through their instructors and gofers, which we all laughed about amongst ourselves. (All experienced pilots, most left seat on heavies). Those were easy days, 2003/04, with jobs lined up for those who kept their heads down and went through the motions. High standards, corporate propaganda to accompany.

We knew they lied, and we predicted it would all end in tears when their (CTC) greed came up against market difficulties. Today the "difficulties" are immense. As is their greed. CTC have the audacity to continue, making claims which need challenging legally.

Nobody should consider spending money with these sharks. Unless they have a cast-iron case for litigation prepared.

And the same applies for Oxford. No better. In some respects, worse.

Greggs/Morrisons/Tesco/Boots & c. Better job prospects for trainee managers, and no debt.

The problem is that many "intelligent" prospective professional airline pilots believe that they are better than the rest. CTC /OXFORD will outwit you.

[102roadlegal]

Greetings,

I rarely post anything on this but I thought I'd offer my view. I'm a CTC cadet.

Taking a positive view.... I will have completed my training to a high standard, in a short period of time.

However, the right hand jet seat is being pulled out from behind us as the cost burden on the trainee increases.

With 20/20 hindsight, I'd have carried on in my old job, done the modular route of hour building etc, kept working until the last moment before doing my IR and then apply to a turbo prop operator.

I know, it's not a jet and I'd likely have to fork out for a type rating there too but I'd still save a huge amount of cash. Besides, UK turbo prop operators are really competitive now in the domestic flight market.

There are all sorts of views etc being posted here, mine's just one of them and I'm not blaming CTC, but to all the people who are reading this and are thinking about applying (to any FTO for a full time course), all things considered, I wouldn't.

[systematically]

102roadlegal... I agree that with 20/20 hindsight I would have done it the modular way and kept working too.

CTC has been hit really hard by the financial crisis that the only way they stay afloat is by saying they have high quality training, but the fact is they dont anymore. The pass rates for CTC cadets has dropped and will continue to drop.


There are all sorts of views etc being posted here, mine's just one of them and I'm not blaming CTC, but to all the people who are reading this and are thinking about applying (to any FTO for a full time course), all things considered, I wouldn't.


I have to agree with you again.. Maybe CTC will improve again in years to come, but untill then I wouldn't apply either.

[TFlexMax80]

The pass rates for CTC cadets has dropped and will continue to drop

Any more details on this?

An interested ex-cadet...

[systematically]

Are you asking why are the pass rates dropping?

Several reasons I guess..
1. There are a lot more "I can pay cash cadets". ie Selection consists of "ability to pay" not "abilities"

2. The cost cutting in these organisations is huge. (esp. last 12 months)

3. Quality of training is limited to bare minimums now. (I was told CTC has cut upset training (extreem UA's) and other non essential training.

4. One good thing is CTC/OAA will not kick you off the course anymore (due to poor performance), because it will cost them too much.... Have you heard of anyone in the last 6months been removed?

I hope I have answered your question.

[99jolegg]

4. One good thing is CTC/OAA will not kick you off the course anymore (due to poor performance), because it will cost them too much.... Have you heard of anyone in the last 6months been removed?

CTC had around a 1% "failure rate" for Wings Cadets which was quoted in 2007...so that would account for all of the CPs to that date that had finished. To my knowledge, it's not any higher now and I've not heard of a wings cadet being kicked off the course, as far as ability is concerned anyway.

In short, I don't think cadets were ever kicked off the course due to poor performance.

[one post only!]

Yes they were. I know this 100%.


Edit to add: Poor performance is subjective! I don't think all were kicked off due to poor performance, some weren't treated fairly IMHO. Which in my opinion is worse!!

[gyni]

I can personally remember 8 in the first year or so.

[GWidgery]

I know of several over 2008-2009. Although you must bear in mind that statistic is only for Wings Cadets - i.e. only if you get kicked out/leave after the foundation course. And seeing as the foundation course was taking 4-6 months there was a lot more time for people to leave and it not count!

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

I can remember a few, i'd say the rate was higher than 1%. The selection process is a little less involved now so that may have an effect as well.

WBV

Ps ditto what one post only said

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Agree with the guys above. From CP3 through to CP19 or so there was an average of around one cadet per course getting chopped. Not every course lost someone, but I remember one CP in particular losing more than one cadet. Nearly all got the bullet during the IR phase in BOH. The Duchess wasn't quite as helpful as the Twinstar when it comes to NDB tracking!

[systematically]

I dont know how they can quote a 1% failure rate. Where was this from? (The selection rates were about 1%) The failure rates up to about CP59 were averaging one per CP. One CP i know of lost 3!!. So the average is at least 10%.

My point is: there has been none chopped since cp59 when the financial purse strings were tightened... The NZ division was just about closed because they were not making money. Now they have to at all costs. Chopping cadets means loosing income.

And yes the selection process is a little less involved now. It costs money to have long selection processes.

[systematically]

Don't need to see it differently... A new scheme that sees the cadets pay even more! (Probably because the training quality has deteriorated and CTC cant afford the odd X or Y flight anymore).

The advantage of this situation is we don't get kicked off anymore.

Beers anyone?

[102roadlegal]

Whether the training has deteriorated or not, it's a side issue really and I'm not going to get involved.
The appeal of forking out for foundation course, training then this new "contract" with Easy is zero. If you are a current iCP Cadet then you're arguably at less of a "disadvantage" as, once you're through the flying, your wings colleagues are not getting a type rating so you're in the same boat ie, pay for it.
Granted, it's not the full amount but it's still a wad of notes. The Ts & Cs are the real knife to the throat.
Some (many) of us are stuck. In the brown stuff really.

Repayment of loans may be possible or living may be possible, not both !

I've heard this "if we all stand together, we'll force them to offer a better deal" type of chat and realistically, that's never going to happen as it only takes a few folk to hand over more cash and the viscious cycle continues.
Should I see the glass as half full.... ? I do try but really, I can't make this look good :(

[gyni]

The trouble is that the writing has been on the wall for a while now and really anybody who signed up for the CTC scheme from early mid 2008 onwards must have known they were taking a huge gamble if they'd done even the slightest bit of research. What worries me more is that people are STILL signing up for the scheme. What do eJ need to offer before people wake up?!

[one post only!]

gyni, that should be, what will people have to offer to ezy before they wake up!!!!!! You want me to pay how much a year to work for you..........?

[Cancel2LateLunches]

Ladies and Gents please wake up. You are all fooling yourselves! I'm a current EasyJet pilot and I have all the sympathy in the world for the guys who have come out of CTC this year to find themselves left well and truly in the poo.

Unfortunately for all you guys coming from CTC next year and onwards you will find far less sympathy from the pilot population at EasyJet, you guys got yourselves into huge debt in the middle of a recession with airlines going bust. Honestly what were you thinking? What is even more baffling is that CTC are still sending full courses out to NZ, again what are you people thinking?! It makes me question you ability to operate a aircraft at commercial level, clearly you must be slightly mentally unstable to sign up to this course with the industry in its current state. On top of that you are directly affecting the T&C's of the pilots you one day hope to be working with. Are you all that stupid and selfish? Of course when you finally finish you will be demanding the support of the current Easy pilots to support your cause.

Abandon hope all ye who enter the great CTC machine

[fastjetpilot]

In reply to the beginning of your post and to make it clear to others;

The cadets that are starting TR's now, started their CTC training in Summer/Autumn 2007. No sign or very little sign of a recession and a great placement history with funding through an unsecured loan. These are the guys (and gals) that have been left to consider whether they want to continue working in temporary jobs, whilst paying off their loan (without being able to afford to live) OR going bankrupt (whilst being able to afford to live)

The cadets that started in 2008 should have seen this coming and stayed clear. However, at the time, CTC were the giver of all news great and encouraged young impressionable "kids" to start, still with an unsecured loan.

Let's make one thing clear here, the folks going through TR and Line Training, and in the hold pool at the moment have UNSECURED LOANS. Mummy and Daddy did NOT pay, they are NOT going to lose their house and it is up to little Jonny to find the money, or face bankruptcy.

So,

Cadet A (let's call him Steve) has finished his CPL/IR with fATPL. He's working in a temp job somewhere, earning under a grand a month (not enough to repay his loan even), has rent and bills to pay (so can't save anything) and has just been given this latest offer.

Steve deferred his repayments to HSBC for 6 months, hoping that a job would come along on the old scheme, where he would do his TR for nothing, then 6 months line training on £1000 a month, then a FO position on £36k a year. That would be great. Instead, the ONLY option available to enter an airline (ie. a job with a large enough salary to repay his loan) is with CTC as a Flexicrew pilot.

Now, I don't want to go into the details of the agreement, those of you who have seen it know what it involves. But basically, it's a lump sum up front followed by pretty poor pay for a long time after. As I said before, he has a choice, to take it, and hope that there's something more to follow or to turn it down.

TURN IT DOWN!!!! I hear you all shout....

Ah, but then Kevin, (who doesn't really talk to the other cadets, and has very rich parents) decides he can live on pittance and takes the job. Where does that leave Steve - at the back of the holdpool again, with no prospects for a long time, still in a temp job, still not paying off his loan and ultimately to bankruptcy.

So why should he take it? Even if he can fund the initial cost, then he still won't have enough to live on and pay back his loan. But - like the guy that's gone to Africa, like all of you who started out somewhere - he has F all to lose. Even if he joins with the rest of his CP in saying no, there will be people to fill his place, other cadets, from OAA, modular cadets etc etc the list is endless. So he has to say yes. He'll beg and borrow from family for the 10k and say yes.

Unfortunately, a few select individuals keep harping on about saying no, and you're degrading Ts and Cs for all blah blah, yes they probably are. But who set those Ts and Cs in the first place? Why not turn your anger onto those who make the decisions, join Balpa and actually acheive something, like securing your OWN job, because this affects every single one of you.

Easyjet know the exact position these cadets are in, and exploit it to the point of slavery. The only people that can stop it are those within eJ itself and BALPA. CTC cadets don't have BALPA recognition so they can't do anything.

What you have to remember is that CTC actually provided and STILL provide cadets of high quality and caliber (I know, I've flown with them as well as other "cadets" from other FTO's), although they are low houred they are good at the job, learn quickly and try hard. The Captains at eJ obviously don't care if they are sat next to someone with bankruptcy looming and stress induced fatigue, who has flu but can't take the day off because they don't get sick pay and they have rent to pay. When the sh1t hits the fan do you think you might prefer someone who is on the ball and able to actually help you? Because I would.

To come back to your post, the people starting CTC now, or airline training in any form, are either extremely deluded, extremely rich, or extremely thick. Now is not the time to start training, nor has it been for the last 18 months.

We need to stick together and get eJ to raise the conditions for all. They made a profit last year (quite a substantial one), much to everyones surprise, and yet they aren't willing to pay for a decent workforce. I really really hope it comes back to kick them in the nuts.

This was only meant to be a short post, if you feel really opposed to what I have said, please put it directly, without insult and we can discuss it as mature adults.

[systematically]

djfingerscrossed CTC will remove people. It has been recommended to a few cadets and they have had to argue emotionally to remain. We've seen tears and arguments.


But they still remained (even with tears) due to the financial burden to CTC if they are removed... hence use the emotions to offer them the iCP and make them pay more! Not like in the past where CTC would remove them to retain Quality Graduates. Wouldnt you agree?


The more important point is that people are continuing to somehow get the finances together for the scheme. Secured on properties etc is simply crazy during these times with limited employment prospects. I would be happy to recommend the course but it's simply not a viable option at the moment.


Yes, people are going further into debt funding CTC's money making scheme. Companies start off developing a good reputation and then ride on this reputation to make lots of money by cutting quality... I think we will see this more in the next few years. Another reason why it's not a good option at the moment.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The cadets that are starting TR's now, started their CTC training in Summer/Autumn 2007. No sign or very little sign of a recession and a great placement history with funding through an unsecured loan.


Queues around the block outside every high street branch of Northern Rock?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44118000/jpg/_44118226_kingston203.jpk.jpg

BBC NEWS | Business | Rush on Northern Rock continues (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6996136.stm)


Note the date - 15th Sept 2007.

House prices had declined in a straight line every month all year in the USA. Interest rates were being slashed, the media was awash with talk of recession, finanacial crisis, bank runs, house price crashes, credit crunches.

Its 2 years and 4 months since Northern Rock. I think anyone who gambled £70,000 on the prize of a jet job at a major airline post Northern Rock wasn't properly pricing the risk. The financial weather radar was solid magenta by Autumn 2007 but still they took off.


WWW

[bingobingobongo]

Good day to you all.

I have been reading your posts with interest. However, you all say with venom 'NOT TO TRAIN NOW', and if people are training now they are STUPID etc etc.

Would it not be a good time to train. after all, all industries are screwed at the minute so forging a career anywhere is unrealistic. therfore, i could take time out now to train and not really mis anything. Further, when the market returns which it WILL (listening to some of you, you think the economy and world is over, it is not). Therefore If i started trainng with say CTC by this time next year or so I would be nearly trained and thus emerge in a new stronger economy.

you comments are much appreciated so long as they dont just slate me.

Good day

[sharpclassic]

Bingobongo,

Don't be lazy, read the last 20 or so pages. If you can't be bothered, there are a few of us on here who will happily rip you apart.

Anyways, the main reason for my post...

Can someone please let me know what the current total cost is for cadets starting at the moment?

I just want to know about any Foundation course, wings course etc. Don't worry about the new type raping scheme which is under discussion, just want a rough figure for the initial training, both Wings and ICP

Thanks.

P.S. Yes, I could have looked harder on the CTC website but strangely enough, the total cost wasn't very clear.

[CmixTmixC]

BingoBongo,

Do not pay any attention to the dooms day chanters. NOW is a great time to train. The recession will not last forever. Even now they say green shoots of recovery are evident.

My recommendations are: go forth and pursue your career. The best schools to consider are; Oxford, CTC if you are going integrated, which I would recommend you do as this increases your possibility of getting into an airliner after completion of your training.

hope this helps.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Very funny. ;)

Now stop it.

Ta,


WWW

[CmixTmixC]

well i fyour not going to answer bingobongo i feel i have to.


Well why not call across to him as you are using the same connection as bingo?

And GuyAk from earlier in the thread.

Pathetically inept trolling.

Regards
Rob PPRuNe Towers

[Zippy Monster]

Further, when the market returns which it WILL (listening to some of you, you think the economy and world is over, it is not). Therefore If i started trainng with say CTC by this time next year or so I would be nearly trained and thus emerge in a new stronger economy.Yes, you probably could. If you're happy you've done your research properly and this is your take on how things will pan out with the economy, then fine - go ahead and train.

However...

It's becoming clearer by the day that the CTC programme is no longer the route to the job it once was. I've always been a staunch defender of the training on here and continue to be so - the standards are very good, it's a great experience, etc. but the days of finishing the course, going to an airline, doing your six months' 'experience' and then disappearing over the hill into the sunset waving your nice permanent full-time contract are over.

My personal view is, when the economy picks up, they won't be coming back. The airlines (EZY in particular) have made no secret of their desire to force down T&Cs, particularly for new joiners. As I understand it, from what CTC have said, these FlexiCrew terms being offered to the guys now will remain the best available for a long time. For once, I believe what CTC say. The rot has set in.

Part of the attraction of the course used to be the direct route into an airline upon completion. The course was (is) expensive compared to doing it the modular way, but you accepted you were paying a premium partly for the continuity and the high standard of training, but mostly because of the chance of landing a good job at the end of it.

The course now costs £69,000 for the Wings phase plus NZ$17400 (£7500ish at current rates) for the mandatory Foundation phase. So you're looking at a basic £76,500 up to the end of the CPL/IR/MCC phase. This is getting on for £12k more than it was just three years ago (£60k + ~£4k) - an increase of nearly 20% in three years! (Hope that partly answers your question, sharpclassic.) Then of course you have to factor in insurance costs (which have rocketed) and about £5k of living costs, and then finally - as things stand, unless you're unbelievably lucky and BA reopen the doors just as you're coming through - another £10k for a type rating to actually get you the job.

Now, bingobingo, you tell me why you think it would be a good idea to start on this course, paying that completely ridiculous sum of money to train for a career where the overwhelming likelihood is that the only option on completion will be a job on a FlexiCrew contract barely earning enough to cover your loan repayments, never mind afford a home, a car or any sort of lifestyle. Because, the way things are now and with what is happening to the current crop coming through, I can't see for the life of me why anyone would think this would be a remotely good idea. On the other hand if you train modularly and cheaply, you'll be able to afford the full TR cost with easyJet or Ryanair, join as a contractor on similar wages and you'll still be thousands of pounds better off.

And on top of all that, pretty much the only way of finding the finance is through securing it on property! Are you really prepared to stake a house - yours or someone else's - on all this?

[EK4457]

CmixTmixC/Bingo/GuyAK,

That is truly shocking behaviour.

You are using underhand tactics to encourage admittedly clueless wannabes into financial oblivion.

The ONLY possible motivation for your embarrassing stunt is if you have a personal interest in one of the FTOs you mentioned. Or EZY.

They didn't enjoy the best reputations on here anyway; you have dragged them down further.

Shame on you.

EK

[Captain Clack]

Beware of the scam pipework. Once £110K down you will then be offered the fantastic opportunity of buying a 'job' (slavery apprenticeship) for another £30K. Only thing is, you grow envious of that 4.9m x 2.4m patch of diesel tinged tarmac you live on that is earning more per hour than yourself. Remember the 18 months lost earnings whilst training equates to about £30K. The total liability comes to about £215K when you add income tax deductions in. You pay all this liability and whilst training you will have to beg for eveything you'd expect to come as standard, such as flying.

Course fee repayment at 4.75% interest £110K
Purchase a job £30K
Income tax liability on above £45K
Lost earnings whilst training £30K
______
£215K


This is not a "sponsored course", the term probably shafts HMRC out of millions of £s income tax revenue. (This needs to come to light).

The CTC course is just like underwater cave chamber diving, without scuba, or a light. If you are willing to put everything on the line for something so uncertain, with a 99%:{outcome, go for it.
Some of us however signed up in the 'up-times' for a CPL/IR + AQC + Type Rating and that is what was sold, for £65k. So to be short changed like this has lit the blue touch paper.
Simulation:
It is like buying a built-to-order Ferrari with a V8 engine. It arrives and they say: the V8s were breaking driveshafts so we put this lawnmower engine in instead. Oh, and sir you must buy the key separately. Another £10,000 please.
Then months later Ford, Vauxhall and even the car hire companies are playing the same dirty tricks. Congratulations you got the job, now here's the bill for the interview. The precedent of exploitation is set and all "old boys" buddies follow suit.

One thing is for sure. It is paying to beg and be treated like absolute sh#t.


:} :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :}

[Cherrytaz]

Hi all,

Apologies for my ignorance but just a quick question regarding the ctc wings program.

I have been selected for stage 2 of the program (the assessment) which is coming up in the next few weeks but just curious about the financial aspect of the scheme. I read up on their website but not actually 100% sure what the story is.If you get selected are you basically sponsored or do you invest money in it also?

Apologies if the above is a silly question but would just like to be sure before I travel over for the assessment.

Thanks

[54.98N]

Cherrytaz,

Are you saying you've got all the way through finding out about CTC, applying, passing Stage 1, and getting through to Stage 2 without knowing if you or they pay the cost?

[Cherrytaz]

Ok thanks,

As I say I was just asking for clarification. before I fork out quite a lot of money for flights to the assessment.

[VdV]

Cherrytaz, youre almost certainly a troll but if not. Hahahahhahahahahaha go on just keep going, get into ctc and do whatever they say. Take the loan mate, itll all be awesome go on. what could possibly go wrong...........jesus christ....

[Zippy Monster]

Cherrytaz, assuming for a moment you are just a wannabe who hasn't done much research and you're not actually a troll, you'll probably be going into the phase 2 day with your eyes wide shut. In which case, could you do us all a favour; when you've been, come back on here and tell everybody what they said during the slick presentation about the course? I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear how it's being sold these days.

[Cherrytaz]

I just asked for some advice, merely a question. Harsh insinuating im a "troll".

I am a wannabe pilot but im also a realist. I of course wanted to go the airline pilot route straight out of school but was advised to get a college education first and I did this and graduated with 1st Class Engineering degree in November and so i applied to ctc Wings purely out of curiousity and had heard nothing more until i got an email the other day.

Its obvious from the respones that I might be best not attend (as job prospects would be pretty dire) but its hard to turn down anything when currently unemployed with little job prospects in Engineering either.

[Zippy Monster]

Amistad, very entertaining...

You could probably do with removing your age from your profile. I imagine that might help people narrow it down.

[Cherrytaz]

Its unfortunately in Civil Engineering so have been finding it desperately hard to secure any work since finishing College.

[ford cortina]

Let me get this straight, you have no idea if you are Sponsored or paying for the course.
What the hell are you doing, I have just Googled, CTC wings hit the CTC wings cadet tab and hit finances, page two has the answer.
it is here:
Professional Air Training & Airline Pilot Careers with CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/europe/cadets/finance.asp)

Now if you can not figure that out, how in gods name are you going to cope on a cold dark night, when you have a nasty engine fire and start to struggle with the QRH?

Sorry but you should know better, ex university, good education, No bloody common sense, typical.

[Cherrytaz]

Ok admittedly I should have done more research before posting.

I think I am going to attend anyway, I purchased the Pilapt software and have been practising on it.

[systematically]

Cherrytaz...I wish I had an engineering degree... Theres a chance of getting a job and a pay packet with that qualification.
Oh wait CTC know that because all you go are going to do is keep the CTC scam running. Then end up having to get an engineering job to pay them for the rest of your life...

Don't bother studying for the PILAPT.. Thats NOT how they select people anymore. Really. All you need is a secured load...

[fly_antonov]

Cherrytaz, you may think that prospects of getting a job as a civil engineer anywhere in the world may not be that good, but looking for a pilot job 2 years from now could be thousands of times more frustrating.

A friend of mine bought a 70 000 euro loan 9 years ago, just weeks before 9/11. He hasn' t been able to secure a job, has given up hope after 7 years. He was lucky that he went modular and that he had a job because he is on his own (no parents).
Now he is starting a small business but finds himself restrained by 1000 euro monthly loan repayments that he has to keep up with for another 4 years.

As a civil engineer, there is a worldwide market open to you, don' t limit yourself to your own area. There' s many many countries in western and eastern Europe looking for people with your qualifications, especially for government contracts.

It' s your money (that you don' t own yet) and you do what you want with it, but you should face reality. This is not a joke.

With that kind of money you can start your own small engineering business.

[Cherrytaz]

Thanks for the advice.

I think you're right, its a ridiculous amount of money to part with with no job guarantee in the slightest.

After thinking over the past day or so I've decided to stick to Engineering for the time being and try to secure a decent paid job and from there work my way up (PPL etc..) That way I suppose I can manage my finances more appropriately over a longer period and not (hopefully) get myself into serious debt.

Hopefully after a few years the airline industry will have picked up and perhaps then I can look down this route again.

Its so frustrating though having a good degree and failing to find work, hopefully something will show up though. I'm planning on starting a masters in September if I have no work secured by then so I suppose I'll just see what happens.

Thanks again

Cherrytaz

[fly_antonov]

Welcome.

I also gave up flight training for now and I am looking forward to September and my first year on a bachelor degree in aircraft design, probably followed by a 2 year bridge course to master in industrial engineering.

I' ve got just the same in mind about waiting a few years and saving for training in the meanwhile. Worst case, I never return to the industry and use the money for down payment of a home.

Good luck!

[DavidG88]

Hi everybody,

I have recently passed phase 3 of CTC selection and am waiting to recieve an information pack providing all of the details. I have been told i can start around April time but just wanted some views from you guys. I am not sure if to go ahead with the course now due to the large costs and poor job oppertunities. However, there is also a part of me that thinks that when i complete the course in roughly 2 years the climate may have changed and i will get a job fairly quickly, and be able to pay off the loans etc.

I understand it is a gamble at the moment but i really want to go ahead with what would be a dream career, and am worried that if i dont i may regret it in years to come.

Ant info about costs etc and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[jb5000]

I am not sure if to go ahead with the course now due to the large costs and poor job oppertunities.

Pretty much summed it up perfectly.

when i complete the course in roughly 2 years the climate may have changed and i will get a job fairly quickly

It might have, but you won't. The list of CTC wings cadet pilots in the holdpool by then will look like a list of extras for Ben Hur. They will all get employed before you.

Please, don't do it. Read some more of these forums, have a think, and then don't do it.

PS -

..would be a dream career..

:ugh:

[Pick me Flybe!]

How long does it take to complete the course from when you get accepted on to the program until you complete AQC and enter the pool

[Zippy Monster]

I'm not sure if DavidG88 is a troll, but since I've got nothing better to do at the moment I'll assume he's not a troll, just another starry-eyed lazy naive young wannabe who hasn't even bothered to read the last couple of pages of this thread, never mind the thing in its entirety.

David, like jb5000, I'd also like to pick up on your "dream career" comment. What exactly do you forsee this 'dream career' entailing? What is it about this 'dream career' that attracts you so much? Can you put into words what it is about flying a jet for an airline that makes you willing to invest nearly £100k in it?

Is it the utter lack of job prospects on completing the course? The high probability that you'll be working as a contractor with minimal pay and conditions and virtually no benefits or allowances? The possibility of having to live and work abroad, miles from your family/loved ones/mates and not having much of a life? The crap rostering, which sees you doing a block of earlies on minimum rest, after which your days off will be spent mostly catching up on sleep, before switching to a few lates then a few overnighters thrown in for fun? The constant battering of what little T&Cs most of the industry still enjoys by ruthless short-termist bonus-hunting directors who see the F/O as nothing more than a legal requirement the aircraft could quite happily do without, and will go to great lengths to pay you as such?

Or is it the 'dream' of being able to saunter around the airport in your nice uniform past the lines of girls in the check in queue for Ibiza and Ayia Napa, while admiring your reflection in your expensive sunglasses?

If it's something from the former bunch of suggestions, train slowly and modularly and whatever you do, don't over-expose yourself financially. Get your ratings cheaply, and then if all else fails and you're desperate for that jet job, go to Ryanair and pay for their SSTR and join as a contractor; you'll be on similar terms and conditions to a CTC FlexiCrew contractor and you'll have spent a good five figure sum less getting there. You could even spend the leftovers on a 9-month holiday in NZ with a hundred hours or so of light aircraft flying, a few crates of beer and a few trips to Firecats budgeted in and STILL be up.

If it really is the love of flying and the feeling of freedom, liberation and happiness that you can't get out of your system, then go and do your PPL and enjoy flying for fun. I constantly look wistfully back on the days of buzzing around in a 172 or a Twin Star. If you want to fly a big jet for the enjoyment of it, I remember seeing once a programme about a guy who bought a Tristar cockpit from the Mojave desert and rigged it up to MS Flight Sim. That'll be much cheaper.

If it's something to do with the uniform, go and buy yourself a pilot uniform and some sunglasses from Transair or eBay, put it on and go to an airport. Total spend less than £100.

Ok, sarcasm over.

I've been doing the job for a few years and I can't reiterate enough how much the novelty wears off after a VERY short time. Yes it's quite nice when everything runs smoothly, you've got a nice view of the mountains full of snow or the city of London or the French Riviera etc, it's calm/CAVOK and you grease it in and hear a round of applause from down the back, etc. If you're with a decent captain it even verges on being enjoyable. But, knowing what I know now having been here for a few years and seeing how the employment market and new entrant T&Cs has totally and dramatically imploded since I started, would I outlay that kind of money again for this career? Not on your life!

You wanted info about costs? Here you go... £76k, the course costs right now. As a basic cost. (£69k 'bond' + approx. £7k for the compulsory foundation course.) Without insurance, living expenses, and the £10k or whatever it is that is now required as a contribution to the TR should you decide to join the FlexiCrew scheme and join the big orange. Sometimes I don't think people realise that the number on those forms you sign actually MEAN something.

If you have access to that kind of money and you still really think you'll regret it if you don't go for it, and it's still your 'dream career' go for it. The standard of training at CTC is very high. You'll have a cracking time in NZ, great fun at Bournemouth and you'll be under the watch of some very good instructors and some very decent people at Nursling.

If you don't have access to that kind of money, and you're thinking of staking someone's property as security on the loan you'll therefore need, just sit for a while and imagine what it'd be like if/when the bailiffs and locksmiths come round for your (parents'?) home. You should be awoken from that particular daydream when the men in white coats arrive for you.

[DavidG88]

Thankyou for the last half of your post zippy monster, it was good to get some informative answers. May i ask where you get all of this knowledge of the industry from? obviously reliable.

David, sorry i think i mean troll :ok:

[Zippy Monster]

Having been through the CTC scheme, been spat out of the other end, being incredibly lucky to have found full-time employment and seen that real-life is rather more than is depicted by the PowerPoint display and slick presentation at phase 2. Apologies for the troll comment, but you do get them on here - as you'll see on a couple of pages previously.

[blackred1443]

David if you want to enjoy the £70k you are about to waste at CTC go off and buy an Aston Martin DB9.At least that way you have something to show for your cash. You need to be seriously naive and stupid to start training now or for a long time to come. What ever bolloc*s ctc fill you with during their flashy presentations is just that, BOLLOC*s

Contrary to what zippy tells you, i believe even the ryr sstr if for the seriously naive.

[go around flaps15]

Safer bet than giving 30k to EZY for a rating and 6 months work, and then told to be on your way.

[blackred1443]

When we are scrapping the bottom of the career barrel which is what ryr and ezy have become i don't think saying one is safer than the other is appropriate.Both are hopelessly appaulling and to be honest anoyne that signs up to either at the moment deserves all they get. Let the buyer beware.

Hence the quality of candidate now being attracted, note davids post above wondering is now a good time to start training. Daaaaaaah!!There are unborn children in their mother's womb that probably realise training to be a pilot right now is not an wise decision.

The zombie army are alive and well. I think i might start taking the ferry soon!

[DavidG88]

So i should just give up? What if in 2 years pilots are needed? what if the economy booms? Nobody has any idea how the next two years may turn out so why be negative?

[Zippy Monster]

i believe even the ryr sstr if for the seriously naive.

I agree... the underlying point of that comment being even that is better than the CTC FlexiCrew deal at the moment, which is really saying something.

[x933]

FFS. You really haven't bothered reading any other posts on here.

In 2 years time...you'll be a 250hr pilot sat in a big global hold pool with a good few thousand pilots that are typed, experienced and far more employable than you. It's boring the number of speculative phone calls my company gets from people just like you.

If you *seriously* *absolutely* *must* start training now (And other than it being a dream there's no good reason to), do a PPL and for gods sake enjoy it. Get 100hrs (or however much else you want/need) doing something fun - touring around europe, aerobatics (which will teach you a damn sight more about flying than burning holes in the sky flying navigation exercises - which is mostly lots of mental maths and making sure the aircraft does nothing but fly in a straight line, which is pathologically boring) or air racing. Doing a night rating won't harm, it'll mean you can spend more time on it and that in turn will make *You* a better pilot.

THEN see what the market is doing. If needs require you can bash out the ATPL exams, a CPL and IR in 9 months and I can guarantee the market won't turn that quickly - not a hope in hell.

Countless friends have gone through the mill at CabTEford and have had precisely no support upon graduation - regardless of what the bumff says when they sign off your IR/MCC you're on your own. The flexi-crew deal is garbage and the other eazyjet stuff they were generating didn't pay enough to live off.

For reference - I went to uni, didn't get into the RAF, failed selection for CTC (How lucky was I, this was 2007), took an office job in Aviation to bide my time and now earn pretty much what your common or garden F/O does, live in London, get to play with some seriously cool toys and *still* have enough left to be able to play with a Warrior / Chipmunk when I feel like it, go on holiday and pay london prices for stuff. I still love flying, and maybe one day will do the whole CPL/IR thing. And i'm far less stressed than I would be if I £1500 of my income was being burnt every month.

[blackred1443]

David i seriously doubt there will be anything approaching a boom,remember the uk is now seriously debt stricken as is most of the euro zone. As for there being a pilot shortage anytime soon, im sorry but your being seriously deluded. To be honest i'm now starting to think maybe your trying to wind people up. Look there is a seriously long list of bankrupt airlines over the last 3 years from Zoom,silverjet, globespan,Excel the list goes on and on, do a little research. Thousands of unemployed pilots with lots of experience, 200 ctc cadets threading water in the "pool" which is very stagnant now and more like a cess pit,many of the cadets im told have gone bankrupt.

The ryanair deal is now being described as "better", "better" means you are slightly less likely to get properly canned after six months.The ryr deal has no sick pay, no holiday pay ,pay for your own uniform, no pension, no loss of licence, pay for your own id, pay for your own hotac, pay for your own lpc/opc, no guarantee of any hours, you are a contractor not permenant staff, no crew food, no tea/coffee.This costs you 34k by the way. Rumour has is there is now a drop in the hours these ryr newbees get. The best thing for you to do is a little research. Open The Times tomorrow and see if you see anyone writing about a "boom" in 2 year. I don't know what brand of glue has you thinking about booms in 2 years but i reckon you need to go easy on it. Do your homework its going to cost you if you dont.

[go around flaps15]

Ryanair SSTR has been going on for years. It has worked out for alot of people. Myself included.

In two or so years Ryanair are set to stop expansion. So as an option for you(David) it( Ryanair SSTR) might not be an option.

Even if it(Ryanair SSTR) was still going the chances of (A) Getting a call for interview are slim. (B) Chances of being succesful at interview even slimmer.


Those are things to think about.


Makes me laugh that some people think that anyone who has 30k and a frozen ATPL can just walk into the RHS of 737 with Ryanair.


Eh. Eh.

[Ronand]

just a stupid question:
Is it really that bad for those who went bankcrupt while the CTC loan was still unsecured? I mean your credit record will be crap for a few years but after all you got your licence more or less for free?

@DavidG88 If you really dream of a Pilot career there is one last thing you may try: Take a year or so to learn german and then apply for the Lufthansa or Airberlin cadet scheme . I met a guy from the UK who really went to germany for a year to learn german then applied for Lufthansa cadet scheme and made it threw the DLR selection. He couldn't speak a word german when he moved there....

[x933]

WWW Wrote an interesting post on this a while ago. I've got my own oppions on this which will probably get me banned.

I hate flying Ryanair as Michael O'Leary is a spud faced chancer and I hate fuelling his empire (not to mention I don't like his on board product or the way in which he does business). I'd rather fly easyjet as it doesn't push the fact that it's cheap and built down to a price, and their product is better. But at the same time, Do I want to be flown around by a low time wannabe with pockets of depth inversely proportional to flying skill that may or may not have flown much in the last xx months/weeks...

Sod it, i'll get the train.

[go around flaps15]

No arguements on the EZY product. I used them once in the past and was very happy with what I paid for.

[x933]

Spesh moment, meant Michael O'Leary. Duly edited. I prefer EZY...but this is a thread for CTC Bashing and not loco bashing :E

[Zippy Monster]

Do I want to be flown around by a low time wannabe with pockets of depth inversely proportional to flying skill

We're at risk of thread drift here, but this is a point that's been brought up repeatedly over time.

Why is it always assumed that those who have the most money and therefore the financial clout to get on these courses, have the least flying skill? Why do the two have to be linked?

I'm sure it's possible to be a good pilot who happens to be minted, and I'm sure the converse is equally true.

The sad thing is that in the past, in the days of the unsecured loan and the ability to get it sorted simply by scrawling a big shaky X on a few pieces of paper, this wouldn't even be a discussion point on this thread. One big selling point of the CTC scheme was that it was accessible to all, without having to put up security. No longer - as the credit dried up, the course price has also gone up!

[TFlexMax80]

DJ,

I would say that both of your distinct schools of thought are correct at the same time.

Shelling out the huge amounts of money was always a gamble, no matter whether that debt was secured or not. Even if you had something to fall back on, that wasn't even in itself a cast iron insurance policy.

Even in the good times, one had to be mindful that the next downturn might only be just round the corner albeit there were the warning signs in mid/late 2007. The 100% placement guarantee could only ever be one of those temporary and variable things.

As for current potential cadets. Yes, the training is great. Yes, you'll have a great time whilst you doing it. Yes, the golden goose is now dead. It's a lot of money to pay to sit in an imaginary swimming pool full of other equally desperate people, when the brochure has sold you the heated jacuzzi filled with chicks.

[kingofkabul]

Hi, does anyone know of how many cadets have not been placed with airlines as at today?

I ask as I am considering CTC in the future - and by future I mean 3-4 years down the road dependent on T+C's, but am concerned by what I have read on these forums, and so thought I would do some digging of my own. I was recently looking at the annual accounts for Airline Placement Ltd for year to June 2009. Under "Stock" they list £17.826m as the "training costs of those pilots who have not yet been placed in employment with an airline". This is up from £12.056m from the previous period.

The £17.826m is similar to the £18.084m of creditors - bonds which represents the "security bonds deposited by pilots during training". Compare this to the situation on 20 June 2008, the bonds which had not been passed to an airline stood at £9.189m

If the "security bond" is £66,000 as I am led to believe, this implies that approximately 270 cadets were either in training, or had completed training and were in the "pool" at 30 June 2009.

...this figure of 270 seems a little high, and is double that of 30 June 2008. Can anyone confirm this is really the case, and if so how many cadets would there be ahead of me in the employment queue as of today?

Thanks for the insight,

KofK

[kingofkabul]

Hi, thank you for those replies, yes it does seem that the figure of 270 is not a million miles off.

I think it wise to avoid going down that path for the meantime - it does concern me that some others will go into a course now without having done the appropriate research. As much as it pains me to work in an office, at least its a job - and in an airline so can stick it out for a bit!

I wish everyone in the pool the best, it'll pick up eventually. I've heard that CX are developing an abridged version of their cadet pilot programme to those with fATPLs, could be worth a shot for you guys.

All the best,

KofK

[alpha.charlie]

roughly CP's 53 to 80 (?)

27 x 12 per CP (give or take) = 324 cadets ahead of you

placement for this year is essentially over for EZY, maybe another handful or so to leave the pool.

CTC have placed about 60 cadets this winter, at this current rate of placement if you were to start on CP81 it would take you about 5 years to be placed! :eek:


p.s. "placed" means offered the chance of paying EZY £10k for a type rating and then getting paid very little per rostered flight hour for 3 years with no contractual guarentee of anything after.

[LaurentRobert]

Hello All,

Just got a brief contribution to make regarding the hold pool.

I was due to start training with CTC last year, but decided the risk was too great to secure the cost on my parents house. This pprune thread had a lot to do with it, but I was also shocked that the contract I received stated that APL could terminate the agreement if the cadet had been in the holding pool for more than 12 months.

Now, even when CTC were trying to be optimistic they said I could expect to be in the pool for about a year! So I found the fact that they could cut anyone loose after 12 months very worrying.

Laurent

[x933]

I'd venture 50/50, DJFingerscrossed. Kingofkabul has the right idea, I feel. A companies accounts (Which are a publicly available document for the princely sum of £1 from companies house) will always paint a picture of what's going on at CabOxTE. Be wary of any big minus numbers. And if you don't understand them, give them to mummy/daddy/someone that does and ask for their oppinion. It will save you a lot of heartache if your throwing large ammounts of money around.

[fastjetpilot]

DJ,

You give CTC too much credit. This is not a "nice" gesture. A nice gesture would have been paying for accomodation for cadets or something along those lines. This is fully B, with a little bit of maintaining their OWN reputation - which by the way - they have pretty much destroyed in the last 6 months anyway.

And only guys up to the end of 52 have been offered a TR. There were 2 or 3 guys that were upcoursed from 54 that are now on 52 that got the offer.

[mukoba737]

Hi guys,

ok, I was one of the lucky guys who did see the scam in the CTC scheme.
Look, this thread goes all about how bad and what can be done better with CTC.

one of my former collegues had done the CTC thing. Poor him (personal opionion) however, he paid and is still waiting since like more than 7 months now.

No job for him from CTC so far.

Guys before spending this much money, try to apply with others such as Air Berlin, learn german for couple of months, try Sichuan Airlines ...they are expanding and recruiting, and there are many more.

I had my last interview a couple of days ago.

Next for me is Avico Aviation. link to them and sponsored program is here (http://www.avicoaviation.com).
You see, other employ and give you the type rating....this pprune guys which tell you that there is no hope...screw them! Not everything is bad...I belive the CTC guys do a job and a pilot wanting to join CTC must read and evaluate the options.

hope I could help someone

m737

[LaurentRobert]

Could the 12 month clause be a recent addition to the CTC contracts? Or has it always been there?

[systematically]

Thanks x933. Looks like you can also access the NZ CTC companies books... www.companies.govt.nz (http://www.companies.govt.nz) (free). Makes for some interesting reading. Especially who is benefiting from from this scam.... the CEO and directors/fees are Huge!!
Sad about the cadets that are going bankrupt and the instructors that are paid crap just to line the managers pockets.

[The flying bob]

This is well unfortunate indeed.... !! But guys, managment making HUGE amount on the back of their people is not only happening at CTC...
When are we finally going to understand that this world is turning the wrong way!!!!
Seems like we all wanted it when we elected the wrong people to lead our nations.
This is where the American system will take us, a bigger and bigger gap between those who decide and those who simply execute.
Our Terms are getting worst but believe me, we are well above many of the people on this sad planet. Stop thinking just for ourselves, stop the massive consumption, Stop the CRAP TV and the insane Big brother or American Idole, stop byuing your food to Tesco or other crapy Asda, change your way of consuming, and the system may have a chance to change...

All this flexicrew shows one thing, we are not the god we thought we were, we are employed to do a job and that's it! How many times have I heard some guys complaining about strikes.... Well, strikes are sometimes the best option to make these bas:mad:rd at the top understand that without their workforce they are nothing...

Stand up guys and please stop accusing the system! It is what it is because we let things happened... We are cowards

[systematically]

Um OK Bob. What do you suggest we do?

[VdV]

Decommissioned Russian tank + Turret reactivation + Shells = No more CTC

[Pick me Flybe!]

How many intakes a year does CTC have onto the wings course. How many students do they tend to get on each course?

What will be the next CP course intake number...? is it in the 70's or 80's?

[timotei]

Hey,

I think the yearly cadet rate is around 120.....each course has a maximum of 21 cadets (CP79 has 21/CP80 has 16) and they start every 2 months (give or take)

CP81 just started this week (today), just as CP80 starts to sit there first 7 ATPL theory exams this week....and as far as I know 82/83 are starting to fill up for start dates in in the next few months

;p

[fastjetpilot]

Who is still mad enough to be signing up to any FTO at the moment?

Whoever it is must have made a mint telling fortunes. Only someone who can safely say that in 2 years there will be hundreds of jobs, and who can safely invest in this scheme, without any risk to their parents or own property etc should be signing up.

[timotei]

Is that the open day on the 20th March?? If so it is at the Nursling Training Centre, where the sims are and now the where a 5 month ground school phase takes place (for the ATPLs) before going to NZ for 7 months

ps I am one of the cadet volunteers
:)

[x933]

I don't know, its mad! CTC have an open day down at Dibden soon and 250 are attending!!!! Yes two five zero!!! Madness total madness.

As usual they are after volunteers and again I shall go and spread the good word about what it is really like out there at the moment!! Then they can make their own minds up presented with all the facts not just CTC spin. If they then still decide to start, so be it.

I really really hope all the other volunteers do the same. I will be very disappointed if you don't. Just remember you are gambling with other peoples money and other peoples family homes! I implore you to be honest, brutally so with everyone that attends (when the situation presents itself!!).

I expect to be asked to leave Dibden at some point!! Complete free speech never seems to be that welcome.

I might make that 251 :E. Least you'll have some company at the bus stop!

[Mintflavour]

So today CTC had an open day.

Those who attended, apart from the sales blurb, any info on the current state of play, regards hold pool, future prospects etc.


mint

[wingdog]

Any truth in the rumour that some cadet's final flight training report was 'altered' by a member CTC top brass from very good, to very bad - resulting in a missed opportunity at BA?

[One9iner]

That sounds very strange. I wasn't aware BA were recruiting? And haven't done so for some time....:confused:

[Zippy Monster]

Wingdog

Care to name, or at least hint at, the source of the rumour? That might give some clue as to its authenticity. Notwithstanding the fact that BA haven't been recruiting for ages so it's either untrue or a very old rumour, it's quite a strong accusation to make without substantiating it further.

[The African Dude]

Wingdog - and anybody else taking that rumour seriously: if something like that happened in CTC, the entire cadet body would be up in arms about it. FFS, the management are not trolls that live under bridges and spend their time trashing our cadet lives as some evil hobby! It's hard times for everybody but these kind of rumours just serve to breed suspicion and fear. We have enough of that already, what's the point.

[NarKotica]

I totally agree with The African Dude :ok:, as I am a CTC Cadet at the moment.

Spreading malicious rumour like that don't, in my eyes, have any merit. Especially when they can't be backed up with some sort of proof or otherwise....

[systematically]

From experience PR1 reports ARE altered from what your instructors write. I have also herd of a guy being upset at the end of training... So there may be "some" truth to the rumor.

[The African Dude]

For consistency, though, and to give the airlines a realistic impression of the cadet as a whole (so, not Mr. Perfect who can never do anything wrong and thus comes across as somewhat hard to believe). This, if anything, improves our marketability to the airline, not destroy it as this particularly gash rumour suggests.

[Mintflavour]

Just like some clarification.
Anybody know how many people in the following CTC hold pools
Holdpool 1: Completed training waiting to be placed
Holdpool 2: Complete the 6 month placement and back into Flexi pool with no work yet for this summer.

I know of 2 in Holdpool 2


Im just seeing if a recent claim is correct.

mint

[strikermacguire]

At the recent open day i overheard a CTC guy say the hold pool was around 120. After placing around 40 guys with EZY the pool is now down to 80ish.

Don't shoot the messenger on this one, just passing on what i overheard. I don't know the specifics either. May be the case that alot were on flexi terms. I'm sure there are guys out there who'll know more accurate numbers than this.

I imagine the holding pool figure gets averaged up/down depending on who you ask!

[x933]

The sceptic in me says that they'll artifically drop the hold pool number knowing EZY or somesuch will take on a few cadets even though they haven't started yet (Technically they're placed and thus not in the hold sea). When they're finished they go back into the hold pool...It's all statistics at the end of the day. Don't read too much into them, that's still 80 people in front of you that want a job.

[FANS]

Deleted post then to avoid scaremongering.

What's the change to seniority?

[R T Jones]

As someone who has been placed via flexicrew with easyjet this year, there have been more placements this year than last. Holdpool goes back from the the mid fifities of cp's so those in the know will be able to estimate how big it is and where they stand. Yes its not perfect, but what is?

[Polorutz]

I am also on the flexicrew deal this summer and I know nobody who's been type rated who's not flying this summer or going to fly starting in June.

[Mintflavour]

Yep I know of 2, me being one of them. Not being Airbus TR EJ is not a possibility. So for the second summer running, not a look in, yet!! :ugh:

I think the more important issue is how many are getting permanent positions. Living in limbo on 6 month contracts is not the way to live.

My concern is that people are getting complacent with this and it will be the norm even when the up turn eventually arrives.

mint

[MVE]

Mintflavour, you have hit the nail on the head. The airline industry is driven by accountants and if they find one bunch of people willing to pay for their job and work for peanuts, why not assume there are others out there willing to also!:ugh:

[sharpclassic]

Flexicrew is not a job. Don't be fooled into thinking that just because some people are being given these 6 month placements, the hold pool is emptying.... it's not.

Until people starting getting proper full time jobs, the hold pool will continue to grow by c15 people a month.

Facts people.

[Ollie23]

It's an absolutely horrific deal, i just can't see the funny side myself.

[Mintflavour]

DJ
So everyone in the flexi crew pool have been taken up on the 3 year deal?

It is still 3 years of below the going rate salary, A variable salary depending how much flying EJ are going to give you. And finally, after 3 years still the uncertainty of employment.

So to me its 3 years of limbo of not knowing when can I get on with Life such as buying a house and start a family etc.

Now that is fact. :p

[systematically]

It kind of amazes me that there is a real lack of communication about the hold pool and the terms and conditions for our future. Why doesn’t the management communicate openly and honestly about these issues as they are so important for our future?
Or am I missing out on the info somehow?

[La Amistad]

DJ, the average salary for someone in the RHS is at least double what the new cadets get. :yuk: What's worse is I do think its here to stay in some form or another.

Some of the lack of communication from CTC will be that they just don't know what will happen in the future as the airlines (predominately EZY) may not be telling them. There isn't a lot CTC can do about that!! However I would assume a large part of the lack of communication (particularly re the hold pool) may be that it undermines a key selling point for CTC. We WILL get you a job*! Putting out hold pool figures and waiting times would not help them recruit!! In golden days the promise of a quick FULL TIME job stood them apart from other FTO's. Not really anymore considering you can pay more (and now earn less) for the privilege of waiting your turn for contract work.
Anyone else noticed the constant requests from CTC for help at open days, giving them contacts at flying schools, international schools and uni etc etc. It smacks of desperation to me??

Please help us recruit. Errrrr no do it yourself!

There will never be any transparency from CTC. Ever. They don't realise who the customer is (as neither do OAT etc). They seem to think that every last cadet owes them for the wonderful opportunity they have given them. Until they realise that it won't change. Shame really. If they did change I reckon they would be by far the best FTO going by a long shot!!




*terms and conditions apply, Job is no longer a job, more "experience gathering" period then good luck you may be on your own but there is nothing we can do thanks to beancounters at the airlines!!.

[roboa]

Been hearing rumours of Monarch offering jobs exclusively to CTC and the cadets. Anybody else heard this or know if there's any truth in this? I doubt it but it was mentioned to me the other day so I though I'd ask...

[102roadlegal]

Some good points up there. Still dismayed that folk are enquiring....

As for the volunteers required for open days etc.... who, amongst those in the system, would really say with conviction that to shell out a huge amunt of cash for a possibility of getting a TR that you will pay for anyway, is a good idea now ?
The "foundation" phase was hiked up a while back, that's before the "bond" which also went up...

It's not a bond, it's a huge lump of dosh you have to give them.

"The industry will pick up..." etc etc "we're looking out for you.." etc etc

The TR contracts with EZY are so grim but folk signing up just keep the spiral going. "Bend me over please...!" :ouch:

Tough times and all that. Can't take any more cliches (how do you do an
e acute ?!)

[roboa]

Seems to just be a rumour, Monarch haven't taken on anyone in quite a while.That's what I thought and if they were going to give out decent jobs I'd have thought they'd go to some of the many unemployed experienced pilots out there instead of inexperienced cadets. Only thought there may be any substance to it as it came from a cadet who recently finished the course

[sharpclassic]

This Monarch rumour has probably come from the fact that they have been looking at getting a couple of 757s on a temporary basis. IF they do get them, from what I've heard, how they will be crewed is still unclear...

As much as it's nice to have some good news, don't get your hopes up too much. Chances are, after this monumental **** up from Gordon Brown and co., they won't be getting the aircraft anymore.

[giorgioleiros]

hy everyone

i am new here,so first of all,hello everyone

i need help.
i have been called from ctc to participate in the 2nd phase in may,but i dont know almost nothing about ctc.

i would like to know if this is formal,and if they are possibilitys to enter in a company

because i have to pay 188 pounds and firts i want to make sure ,and get some information about it


i hope you can help me

thank you very much

[The flying bob]

Well if you don't know anything about it, why did you apply in first instance???
The training is great, not fun at all from my point of view. You are kind of assessed at every single flight and you don't want to mess up too much.
Be aware that as of now all remedial training will be at your cost and that the days of a permanent airline job straight after the MCC are gone.
You will wait for god knows how long then be offered a type rating for which you'll be asked to pay 10K (current rate, it may increase or decrease in the future..) and then be bonded for 3 years with easyJet on a very very reduced salary.
Still better than no job but you will have paid at this stage around 100K.............................. My advice : Great training, too expensive.. And most of all, think twice before applying to any scheme, FTOs don't like wasting their time with undecided people, especially CTC.....

[giorgioleiros]

thank you but i apllied to ctc wings atp

[The African Dude]

The ATP scheme and cadets scheme are two different things. You're on the Cadets thread.

[wirefly84]

Word is here in the UK (from more than 1 source) that EZY have came to an agreement with CTC to supply 180 pilots next year on a 3 year contract, yes it is not yet confirmed, but apparently it is exciting news that they are keeping under wraps until an 'official statement' is made out in NZ from LW himself next month to cadets. Dont shoot the messenger just thought id throw that out there to see if anyone else can shed some light, as this could be v good news for those of us without jobs. Just to clarify, i would not post based on some gossip i have overheard, there seems to be truth in this . . .

[jestersdead]

"...keeping under wraps until an 'official statement' is made out in NZ from LW himself..."

The King of Spin doing his stuff as well as ever....

[Zippy Monster]

Well if you've heard it from "more than one source", they haven't done a very good job of keeping it under wraps, have they? :}

Make sure you keep Clearways tidy...

[chickenlover123]

Hi, I am doing the stage 2 assessment this month and I was wondering if anyone could give me an up to date list of what it entails? Any info would be most appreciated.
Please no negativity about the industry just what will be expected of me in the assessment.

[One9iner]

Phase 2 - AM.
15 question / 15 minute maths test - no calculator.
Basic stuff, conversions, long div, mult. etc...

Then the PILAPT test straight after. (google it)
6 (I think) tests, with the use of a joystick, headset, number and colour keypad. And then a 7th test which is the combination of 3 previous tests at the same time.

You have 3 attempts at each test, and you are required to show improvement.

Then lunch.

Phase 3 - PM
If you pass phase 2 you have an hour long interview covering questions such as 'Why do you want to be a pilot' 'How can a pilot improve customer service' 'Give an example of how you dealt with a disagreement in the work place'

Standard stuff.

[chickenlover123]

Thanks so much one9iner, most appreciated.:ok:
It is as i thought but I just wanted to confirm.
Anyone have anymore info on the questions that will be asked in the interview.
All the people moaning about the new cadets must be loving my questions.

[Polorutz]

David, the 190 pilots include the ones that they've re-placed from their respective winter stand downs on the old Flexicrew contract, actual numbers this year near the 70 or 80 mark for first time placements as stated on some of their emails.

[Dangerman12]

Does anyone know how many of these 190 placements that CTC predict for easyjet this year are gonna be from the Felxicrew hold pool?

Makes a big difference to us at the bottom end of the other hold pools:{

[Polorutz]

Dangerman, all of them are going to be from Flexicrew, CTC operates no other route into easyJet this year.

EDIT: As far as I know

[sharpclassic]

there you go chickenlover, 250 plus people ahead of you by the time you join them in the pool.

Enjoy!
xxx

[R T Jones]

190 placements via flexicrew, 92 first time placements. i.e cadets

[coffeewhiteone]

Just remember a shortage of pilots is forecast within the next 3-4 years and BA are even planning to start recruiting within a years time......once the cabin crew have been dealt with.

[hollingworthp]

Or we could have this (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/city-fears-of-great-depression-mark-ii-tele-12d592c21529.html)instead

[XTR_Chris]

Hi All,

New to the forum so would like to give a big hello to everyone!!!
I'm sat typing this right now as I'm filling in my CTC wings application. Extremely excited about the future prospects if I am successful.

Cheers for all the useful information and links! Although there is allot to look through, everything on here has been a great help!

Cheers All

Chris :ok:

[waco]

coffeewhite one

.......what makes you think BA will be about in 3 or 4 years..........

[The flying bob]

BA shouldn't be your major concern if you go for CTC as you will more likely end flying an A320 with EZY.
However, I think it's time for BA to understand that you work WITH your people not AGAINST.

[sharpclassic]

Bob,

The point of BA recruiting is that their recruitment normally comes from the likes of EZY/TCX/MON/TOM etc thus creating vacancies at those airlines into which cadets can go.

As for your comment about how they treat people, you'd best go to the relevant other threads if you want a fight about that kind of issue.

[The African Dude]

coffeewhiteone - hasn't there been a shortage of pilots 'in a few years' for a long time now? :\

[coffeewhiteone]

Waco,

No one including those in the city are worried about BA going under if this is what you're meaning. Forecasts are that BA will be breaking even in the next year and it is better placed than many in the upturn having secured credit for new A/C (787s & 380s).

The flying bob,


However, I think it's time for BA to understand that you work WITH your people not AGAINST.....please :ugh: BA have always been extremely supportive towards staff however they can't protect their staff from a mickey mouse union that has only made matters worse for it's members. Fortunately, you'll hopefully be represented by BALPA in the near future. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. If you want to discuss the current CC faff then there's another thread for that.

It is true, you are more likely to be in the right hand seat of an EZY 319 however there are some of us who get through straight from CTCs cadet scheme ;) Senior pilots are now seriously looking at or have gone part time working due to tax and pension reasons. Being BA, everyone moves up the seniority ladder and makes space for newbies at the bottom.

[SimonBlame]

I have searched this thread and the web for that matter looking for the answer to this simple question:

What is the benefit of doing CTC's cadet scheme over ICP or going modular and entering at the ATP stage?

I'm not really interested in what the difference was historically and I'm also not interested in comments like, "There is no benefit or difference as there are no jobs".

Just hypothetically, if you could do any route to a job that CTC offer, what makes the cadet wings scheme so special today?

I would like someone to set me straight because the only benefit I can really see is that IF a partner airline recognises the cadet scheme then the partner airline takes on your training bond and the airline / CTC start paying it back to you as well as being on a cadet salary. However from what I can gather it looks like as a cadet you are being paid less than someone who joins the airline as a normal low-houred FO.

Now that the unsecured loan days are over, why go the cadet route over the other 2 I mentioned? Am I missing something?

Many thanks for considering.

[sharpclassic]

Because the cadet scheme has some kind of quality vetting. You have to have at least some ability to be accepted. The Cadet scheme includes the AQC (a kind of JOC course). As a result, the Cadets are given priority in terms of any jobs that may come up.

The ICP scheme, the way I see it is for those people who failed to get onto the Cadet scheme but still have the money to pay for their ratings. The ICP finishes at the CPL/IR stage. CTC are under no obligation to accept you onto the AQC. As a result, ICP people will be given job placements after the Cadets.

As for the ATP scheme, is that really still going?!

[F/O UFO]

That's right. ICP pilots, presuming you do the ATP AQC, go to the bottom of the hold pool and wings cadets move in above them.

[razor27]

That is incorrect.

Nowadays the Icp cadets are placed in the same order as Wings cadets. There is NO difference between the two routes. The 'selection' process was a gimmick to make you think you were lucky to get onto the course.

It may have been relevant back in the days when Easyjet were paying people to come and work for them but not anymore.

[The flying bob]

All wrong.
According to the latest update, ICP students, after completion of the CPL-IR, take an interview with the head of training! It's basically a review of the training and if it is seen as up to standards then the trainee will be offered a place for the AQC, for which he will have to pay for.
Upon completion of the AQC and because the trainee did his basic training WITH CTC, he will join normal cadets in the holding pool and will remain with his CP fellow mate on the seniority list.

It is different for ATP guys. As they only join CTC for the AQC they won't be in the same holding pool. It doesn't mean they'll be at the bottom, it just a different list I guess.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bottom line is there isn't a CTC scheme which is likely to cost you less than £100,000 on your way to a first career job.

That's a big entrance fee to a £40k gross income job. Promotion to Captain being something you can't actually factor into the equation. THE JOB is airline FO.

WWW

[Air_One]

Went for CTC interview in 2008. (but luckily declined after advice from this fourm!)

As far as I am aware most people who are reasonably competent during the CTC interview process will get offered a place on iCP. Even if they dont meet the 'wings standard'. So despite the myth its not hard to get into CTC. You just need to pass the maths test & average pilapt score to get offered iCP place.

The advantage of the wings course used to be

- unsecured loan
- TR paid for

However now these benefits have gone there seems to be little / no difference between the iCP and Wings streams ?

£100K investment in training is OK, so long as you secure a well paid full time job after graduation. However it all just seemed like to much of a gamble to me... It is quite simply a huge sum of money to invest unless your sure of the outcome ?

There seems to be lots of 'smoke and mirrors' about current job opportunity for CTC cadets. Why wont CTC tell people how long the hold pool might be before they sign up ? The training is with out doubt first class. But I very much doubt it is the golden ticket to becoming a jet pilot that it used to be ? (as the huge expansion of budget airlines seen from 2000-2008 is unlikely to be repeated)

[sharpclassic]

Am I right in thinking that a few years ago, there were far more people bleating on here about how they had failed this stage or that stage and if anyone had any info on reapplication etc.?

[londonmet]

Sharpclassic,

Yes you're right. Because in those days CTC took only the best onto their scheme. No they will take anyone that can stump up the cash. Back in the day if you failed selection you moved onto another route to achieve your dream. Failing CTC selection then never meant you weren't good enough to become a good pilot, it just meant that you didn't meet CTC's criteria.

It's such a sad state of affairs now.

L Met

[One9iner]

I witnessed during selection 3 out of 6 fail phase 2...

[Air_One]

> 17 candidates and 13 failed.

Ahhhh.... But Just because you 'failed' phase 2 doesnt meant they don't offer you a place on the iCP stream instead.

I suspect several of the 13 who failed Wings selection will have been offered iCP places. Historically this used to be (in CTC words) a 'self sponsored' stream. But iCP is now almost identical to the wings course.

The selection process is a total gimmick. Yes - they want to make sure they select candidates are capable of passing. But its also alot of crap - basically designed to make those who do pass feel 'special' so they accept the 'once in a lifetime opportunity'.

[Ollie23]

Maybe they could try something similar to the RAF aptitude tests at cranwell, at least they were actually quite challenging and made you feel satisfied to get through.

I attending the CTC selection days 2, 3 & 4 (back in 2007) and I came out feeling like I’d just been bent over backwards by some sort of sleazy used car sales man.

I'd agree that plenty were being turned away back in those days, but lets face it the calibre was hardly high was it, it certainly wasn't the day I was down in Bournemouth i know that much.

[flyhelico]

hi ,

if you are desperate to pass tests, I can offer you airline training and take care of school inscription.

for a small sum, i can contact all my friends in the airline industry and even offer you a type rating ( and maybe I can get you a job).
in fact I will be your agent, and I work from home to keep price down.

100% pass guarantee (as long you have the money).You keep the money, and you pay for each step.

I can train you in less than 2 years and you will get a CPL( frozen)+IR+MCC+t/r

cost around 100'000$. you keep the money, and you pay step by step.

I charge only my time spent :- to book places, and my time spent with you..
I accept payment online only, paypal,...


avoid these suckers of CTC. believe me, better to go with me, than spending money in these academies who promise only dreams!

I have already 3 guys, I take 10 guys maximum.so hurry up!

[Air_One]

> So what do you suggest they do for a better selection process Air One?

I am just making the point that many of those who 'fail' selection for Wings will get offered an iCP place.

Now the loan is secured, and you have to pay for TR, the 2 courses are almost identical. And it seems you even go into the same hold pool at the end.

CTC is quite clearly a business.
More people on courses = higher profit.

[The flying bob]

Not just "many of those" but ALL. Let's make it clear, as you progress through the selection they clearly ask you the question: If you are not successful, will you consider our ICP program?
CTC is now one more integrated route in UK, with one last advantage, its connection with the airlines. Yes the TR is not free any more but it is a job.
And I suspect emirates to launch a cadet program soon as there are more and more photo of the airline on the walls at both Bournemouth and Dibden... The old Britannia and other monarch jets have now been replaced by some shiny Emirates A380 or other 777...
Sar really

[sharpclassic]

Emirates launch a cadet program with CTC?

HAHAHAHAHA! Just the kind of ridiculous publicity that CTC would love.

Then again, EK are finding it so difficult to find experienced guys to join them that they may well have to do a cadet route.

120hours a month anyone?! Living in accommodation out by the new airport? Enjoy!

[Zippy Monster]

Bottom line is there isn't a CTC scheme which is likely to cost you less than £100,000 on your way to a first career job.

It's difficult to tot it all up because of the number of differing factors involved - how much you borrow to start with, financial commitments outside the course, how long you have to wait for type rating, etc. But as a VERY rough guide, here's how I'd approach it:

- Cost of the Wings course - £69,000

- Interest accrued over the repayment term - (depends on the terms of the loan really, but when I signed up the course cost was £60,000 and the total repayable over 7 years was expected to be £84,000 so let's use that for now and call it...) £24,000

- Foundation course cost (at current exchange rate) - £8,000

- Living costs (you're not earning, so these have to be taken into account - as a very low-end guess, let's say £500/month for 18 months) - £9,000

- Insurance - at least £1,000, from what I hear.

So already that's a total cost - not an up-front cost, as a chunk of it is interest which will accrue over time - but a TOTAL cost - of £111,000 :eek:. And if you end up going to an airline which requires a contribution towards the type rating, it's probably going to be another small five-figure sum on top of that...

Fancy PowerPoint slideshows, slick marketing presentations and website FAQs showing the "money flow" are all very well and good, but at the end of the day that's a sum of money well into six figures which will be against YOUR name, and you're going to be paying back at some stage along the line.

If you still think it's for you then fair enough - it worked for me, although having to pay that much back is like having a millstone around one's neck for 7 years. But just think about it. Well over a hundred thousand quid...

[pipkin]

Hi There

Im off to CTC in Hamilton NZ, next week to sit phase 2. Can anyone help / offer advice?. Also not sure how much NZ is different than CTC UK

[Pilot Chris]

To add to your point Zippy, something no one ever seems to take in account when looking at the cost of these schemes is lost earning potential. If you are currently in a nice £30,000 a year job then by training for 2 years you are in effect losing out on 24k ish a year, adding to the 'cost' of living the dream by another 48k.

[One9iner]

At least the taxman has to wind his neck in!

[The African Dude]

Pilot Chris

Totally agree, although you can also factor in the possibility of a higher end-of-career take home, depending on personal circumstances. This can be good justification for high financial outlay initially when the total career earnings increase by taking the flying option (even when taking in to account the training costs plus 'lost' earnings, which may come back to you with a higher salary later in life).

Normal disclaimers apply; nothing ever guaranteed, different for everyone etc.

[BeccaCP85]

Hi,

I'm starting as a CTC wings cadets soon and need to sort out my insurance. I need to have 'life insurance', 'loss of class 1 medical insurance', 'contents insurance' whilst living in the UK, 'loss of security bond insurance' and 'travel insurence' whilst training in New Zealand. I have been advised of an insurance company that will offer a package including all of these but would like to know if anyone has any other advice on where to gain this insurance, where to get a good deal etc. Thanks.

[F/O UFO]

Hi Becca,

For life insurance and lost of license insurance I used BALPA. They are brokers, and sold me a policy cheaper than that which Paul Jones offer you. I had to get travel insurance through Paul Jones as they were the only company to do pilot training specific travel insurance.

We did not have to have contents insurance whilst living in the UK- and as for 'loss of security bond insurance' are you sure that is not the same as your loss of licence (medical) insurance?

[Herc708]

There is a risk of CTC going bust as well which you need to insure against. CTC is showing all the hallmarks of some of the training companies which existed 15 years ago (SFT ?) - desperate to get involved in all aspects of aviation. Eventually ran out of money. Ensure you get to see CTC financial accounts and get an independent assesment as to whether they are viable any more

The next thing I am expecting is CTC Cadets flying for CTC Airways - a new airline flying state of the art aircraft, using state of the art pilots, trained on state of the art equipment by state of the art instructors. The callsign will be 'Pyramid' e.g. 'Heathrow departure this is Pyramid 101 req start and clearance to Hamilton, NZ'. The trunk routes are London - Southampton (cadet access to banks), London - Bristol (cadet exams), London - Hamilton, New Zealand (CTC Airways is ETOPS approved), Bristol, UK - Hamilton, NZ (ETOPS - for cadets to get to do exams), Bournemouth, UK - Hamilton, NZ (Cadet IR test)

Edited to correct spelling (and add a little humour)!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Money really isn't an issue for a young airline pilot - I promise!


I think you mean money isn't an issue for you. For a huge amount of airline pilots who are starting out in their first job, young or old, paying back massive debts on what can be a fairly poor entry level salary means money is an issue. £100K of debt will affect your finances in a big way for the first decade of your career, maybe more, thats IF you get a job.

Sounds smug, I know

Yeah it does. Other than patting yourself on the back and telling everyone exactly how much you earn, I don't quite get the point of your post. Promising people money isn't an issue as an airline pilot is something most recent graduates of CTC/OAT etc would probably take issue with.

[Zippy Monster]

Well aren't you just the lucky one, New FO. I'm sure life is very nice for you in your job at BA. How wonderful it must have been to come out with three instant job offers - those were the days, eh? I'm sure you're very nice really, but if you read back over your first post can you not see that it's oozing arrogance? Particularly as you then admit that you know there are ex-trainees facing tough times?

If you could just see through your smugness for a second, what you appear to not have understood is that many of the posts here (and indeed many from ex-CTCers) are here not to be 'negative' for fun, but to provide a dose of realism to balance out the relentless flight school marketing machines.

Yes I did CTC, I have a very nice life, great salary, more just in allowances than my missus clears in total from her (respectable) job, living in a European country where the pilot union has negotiated the most ridiculous tax breaks. I could go on. So money isn't an issue for me either (at the moment) and the job is great and the people I work with are good - very positive. Isn't that nice?

But, as you probably know full well, it doesn't quite work out like that for everybody. Not long ago I was chatting to an ex-cadet now on FlexiCrew who said he was having to borrow money from family to afford to live, because his monthly HSBC repayments and bills were more than the pay he was earning from his flying contract. I've heard stories from friends about bumping into other ex-cadets on their way out of bankruptcy hearings, after HSBC have come chasing them for money while they've been sat around in the hold pool for goodness knows how long, waiting for that first contract to come along. I know some who have been stressed out and involved with lawyers, trying to negotiate with the bank for months. And all of these are people who obtained the funding back in the good old days when HSBC were still offering the whole amount unsecured.

The point I'm trying to make is that I (and others) are not being 'negative' for the sake of it, but trying to point out that spending that kind of money on flight training is a huge risk even when times are good. And the PR and marketing is so good, so promising and so reassuring that you don't realise until you hit the bad times just what an enormous risk it is/was. I started CTC in the middle of a big hiring boom, thought it couldn't go wrong, and ended up only just scraping into a job as the bottom fell out of the hiring market. Do you think if I could have seen that happening, and all the worry and stress that came because of it, I (and many others) would have gone through with it? I would have run a mile. And how do you think I'd have been if, on top of that, my parents' home had been on the line because of it? I'd probably have been asking for directions to the nearest cliff.

I'd love to see you in a room full of ex-cadets, many of whom have been working on FlexiCrew deals, and try and convince them that money isn't an issue. Maybe not for you, but for others it most definitely is.

I'll reiterate what I've said before. I enjoyed the CTC course very much, living in NZ for a year was great, the instruction was (mostly) absolutely excellent, it did what it said on the tin. If people feel it's for them, and have calculated and understood the risks involved, the great - by all means go for it. You'll have a great time and, if it works out, you'll have the job you dreamed of at the end of it. I'd have no problem recommending it. Better times appear to be on the way, and this can only be good news for CTC and other schools. The problem is that many people DON'T understand the risks, which then become apparent when things go wrong and it's too late.

Hopefully you don't feel too 'irritated' after reading this, old chap, but I make no apologies for my views on the matter.

Just a few quick questions regarding your posts...

i have a main reason for sending this; to encourage support!
Support for what? The decision to spend £100k+ just because, once upon a time, it happened to work for you?

they just need to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel.
Explain what you mean by this? 'Focus on the light at the end of the tunnel'? As far as I can see, you mean adopting an attitude of "don't worry lads, things will be alright - bury your heads in the sand for now." A flight school marketing department would love to have you on board.

Slating someone because they've got an ATPL!
What are you referring to with this? Can't see any slating going on here, just advice.

Enjoy your nice life at BA, let's hope BASSA don't bring it to a shuddering halt and you end up at the back of the job queue...:rolleyes:

[FANS]

New Fo - you are a real inspiration....

Zippy - maybe those cadets you spoke to could be persuaded to post on here to summarise life under the current pyramid scheme.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

they just need to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel. because there is a light, a bloody big shiney one! but you boys keep getting in the way of it for these lads and girls.



No one is getting in the way. The reality is some people from the CTC scheme (and I'm sure others, but this is the CTC thread) have been forced to declare themselves bankrupt in recent times. There is light at the end of the tunnel for those who will get jobs in time to stave off such a nightmare, but for many the current situation is a disaster. You and I graduated into a hiring boom. Things have changed since then - I'm sure you would agree.

My point is that you are declaring all is sweetness and light, when in reality you are saying that you did very well thankyou very much so everyone else can expect to achieve the same. The blunt truth is not everyone will enjoy the luck you had. Telling people on such a well read forum that money is not a problem for junior airline pilots is at best subjective, and at worst purposely misleading. If you borrow £100k you need a job paying around £50k a year and you need it fast upon completion of training. How many jobs that fit the bill are on offer today?

I'm all for positivity but you have to be sensitive to the readership in these forums and the basic truth is that times are very hard for new recruits. Do not enter into flying training unless you can afford the worst case scenario - repayments of over £1000 a month with no flying job on offer.

However, glad to hear you are enjoying BA;)

[Big Trevor]

I was fortunate enough to go straight from CTC into a jet at the worlds favorite too. However, money is still an issue; you can effectively halve your salary when you take in to account your loan repayments and if you need a mortgage then banks just laugh at you. It might be fun if you are young and don't mind sharing a flat (but the novelty of that wears off after a while) or your parents can throw cash at you to help with deposits etc.

So what am I saying; yes the job is awesome and I wouldn't change it for the world, but money is still an issue having gone straight in to a jet job during the good years, when loans were unsecured and proper jobs were up for grabs at the end. Things are a bit different now, and I would definitely think much longer and harder than I did back in 2005. I was fortunate but I am still skint and that isn't due to crap financial management!

[BeccaCP85]

Hi F/O UFO,

Thanks for the advice. I've asked for a quote from BALPA so fingers crossed they'll give me a good deal.

Is there anything else about CTC that you could give me advice on? Anything I may need a heads up on that CTC don't tell us? Any info is appreciated, thanks.

[sharpclassic]

Anything I may need a heads up on that CTC don't tell us?

Haha! This is just the start of the adventure!!

[AlexShorrock]

Hi All,

I have my phase 2/3 on Tuesday. First and foremost, is anyone hear attending the day at the same time? Also, are there any last minute hints and tips?
I've had a few goes at the European Pilot Training & Selection IPAS test, gone over some quick mental maths etc. What I'm really worried about is the interview, I've searched high&low for information on that, though I imagine each one will be different. Though I imagine they're going to ask plenty of 'quality' type questions, does anyone know what technical ones they may ask, such as what is EasyJet's current fleet expansion plans etc.
I have done my research, and I've read many-a post on this thread, but any last minute help as my panic sinks in is much appreciated. :)

Alex

[sharpclassic]

Tip Numero Uno for being an airline pilot.... Don't panic.

I'm serious.

Panic and you'll fail.

Chill out and you'll pass.


It really is that simple.

[AlexShorrock]

That's an incredibly simple yet important piece of information. Made me smile a bit, I'll do my best to keep calm. Nervousness during the tests will lead to mistakes, and in the interview will no doubt lead to be being portrayed as a damp lettuce.

[kizzablonde]

Hey Guys

Was just wondering if anyone knows if a-levels are an essential, I have a BTEC in graphic design (completely irrelevant to flying.....i know!!) however i scored highly completing the course with a merit, merit, distinction grade, equal to around 280 ucas points (I believe).

Would this be suitable for a CTC cadet application or will i have to go back to college and do some a-levels?

[Air_One]

For what its worth I heard rumor that cadets are still being placed (with easyjet, on flexicrew?) - but that there is a 1+ year waiting list.

[The African Dude]

Nearly 150 have gone to eJ since January on FlexiCrew contracts.

The waiting list if you happen to be "lucky" (e.g. delayed during training) is around 8 months, or closer to 13 if you happen to go through basic training quickly.

edit - 'Gone to eJ' means 'accepted type rating courses'. 44 start during the next 3 months.

[Jerry Lee]

Probably you have already read a question like this one but I'm really confused about the cost of the CTC Wings Cadets. What would be the final cost? £78-£80k? Or more?

Ah, and an other question: is requested to do physic exercise at the selection like with OAA?

[The flying bob]

The training cost 69K + Foundation course (17 400 NS$ = 8000 pounds).
You will have to pay for your food and transportation both in NZ and in the UK.
Plan on 10K at least.

After your AQC you will then go onto your TR. If things remain the same, you'll be asked to contribute towards it up to 8K to fly for easyJet.

So far, 95 000 pounds!

Bearing in mind that as a flexi crew you'll only be paid 1200 a month for the first 8 months, then 23 pounds an hour IF you are kept on.

My point of view : Outstanding training, amazing facilities and some real job prospect after, but if you have to borrow the amount, probably not the best option.

[Busdriver1]

Maybe below 500hrs jet time...but at the moment, that scenario looks unlikely...

[systematically]

Why do you want to spend all this money to get poor training, end up in a budget Airline that will flog you to death and then take your parents house?

[Bealzebub]

Well the many CTC trained pilots I have flown with over the last 10 years or so, seemed to have been selected and trained very well. They have readily adapted into our operating environment. I am not aware of a single failure on that score. If this is "poor training" I am very impressed!

Most airlines fall into the "budget airline" category these days at the 737/ A320 equipment level. Whatever the Terms and conditions, I think many of these trainees are looking to progress on to the next rung of the ladder, bearing in mind that most ladders have more than one rung.

Nobody will take your parents house provided you or they keep up the contractual conditions agreed when part of its equity was secured as the basis for a loan. Parents tend to have a lot of experience in this type of thing, and you shouldn't under rate either their experience, common sense or preservation instincts generally.

[systematically]

Yes most of the CTC/OAA cadets HAVE been trained well. At least they WERE trained well. There have been a lot of changes to the way CTC/OAA train due to financial restraints. They now have to make money and their training and quality has dropped dramatically. Although they will still quote previous pass rates etc. So you may not see the decline for a little while.
Yes they WERE selected. In 2006 only 1% got through the selection and that 1% could get an unsecured loan from the banks... since the GFC banks will only loan to those that can afford to loose their house. The selection is now one question... Who's paying for the course.
The cadet numbers dropped dramatically until CTC/OAA decided to take anyone that could pay or get a secured loan.
Parents are putting up their houses. They will do anything to give their children a chance at achieving their dreams. You shouldn't under rate their willingness to risk their house for their children. Cadets have become bankrupt.

[The African Dude]

From the results I've seen recently there has been no decline in pass rates.

You are making some fairly strong allegations against CTC's training standards.
In fact, you are trotting out a random bag-full of statements, some of which true - bankruptcy, parents selling things - and some downright libelous, as above. It just sounds like an uncontrolled expulsion of ranting and it makes you look silly.

As many have said in the past and as was recently hashed out through the letters column in the BALPA magazine, cadets are not selected on their ability to pay.

[Bealzebub]

Just like African Dude, I haven't seen it either, but if I do I will be the first to say so.

All commercial businesses have to make money. All of them! It doesn't matter if you are an airline, a flight training school or run the corner shop. The one simple reason that businesses go bust is that they run out of cash. That may be prevented by borrowing, drawing on reserves, selling assets or new investment in the short term. Ultimately though it is only prevented by making a profit, and that profit only occurs when the income exceeds the costs on a sustainable basis.

CTC is an establishment that has a double edged customer base. On the one hand it sells its training product to individuals. Over the years that product portfolio has increased and broadened. Undoubtably expansion into modular products has been as a result of the difficult trading environment, but nevertheless it will only be successful if it can entice enough customers to buy that product. Similarly with the cadet and to some extent the integrated course schemes, there are cheaper ways of licence aquisition. It will only attract candidates to these schemes if the two driving forces remain in place, they being quality of training and the prospect of airline placement at the conclusion. In the case of the latter, this has always been one of CTC's "ace cards." This is also the second edge of this companies customer base. It sells the finished product to the various airlines as those same airlines inexperienced cadet base. This product must remain attractive to those airline customers if it is to succeed at any level. Obviously CTC know this and it is difficult to imagine they would jeopardise that business by allowing or promoting an inferior product.

As far as financing is concerned, it is not their fault that unsecured commercial borrowing is no longer an option for their selected candidates. That is just a reality of the banking environment at this juncture in time. Lending all around the world has been significantly tightened up, and the financial instruments that might have been available a couple of years ago are now simply history. Given that either the training bond or the cost of the course still have to be paid (business not a charity,) only those candidates that can afford the respective courses will be able to participate.
At borrowing requirements in excess of £25,000 this will normally require secured borrowing. Even so, there are few lenders who will entertain lending for this purpose as there is no tangible (realisable) asset being aquired with the loan advanced. For that reason a property is normally required to secure the loan against. Unless the candidates themselves are particularly wealthy, it will also often require a guarantor to provide that security.

In the case of the guarantor, it is usual for the security to be encumbered (mortgaged) to no more than 60% of its total worth including the funds to be advanced for this purpose. In addition the guarantor must provide evidence that in the event of the borrowers default, they themselves have sufficient income and affordability to assume the repayment schedule. In other words it is not a case of "loosing" (sic) their house, it is a case of the repayment schedule becoming a liability on the guarantor. Only in the event of the guarantors default would the security be invoked.

This is no different to any other secured loan where a guarantor provides the surity. It cannot be done without the guarantors agreement. The guarantor must show evidence of affordability as if they were applying for the loan in their own right.

Undoubtably the funding criteria has reduced the number of potential (realistic) applicants to this and similar programmes. Undoubtably there would also be a modification in the selection criteria where funding becomes a more significant issue. However if the quality of the end product were to be reduced, the airline customers would quickly turn their backs on it, and the provider cannot afford for that to happen. In essence the training standard must be maintained and likely improved. In this situation, changes and streamlining to reduce costs and waste would be inevitable. Adaptability and innovation would be key ingredients of any companies survival in difficult trading markets. That might be perceived as a lowering of standards, but in reality is often a case of maintaining or improving them.

Parents are putting up their houses. They will do anything to give their children a chance at achieving their dreams. You shouldn't under rate their willingness to risk their house for their children. Cadets have become bankrupt.

Speaking as a parent, I have to take issue with the word "anything." Parents have a 20+ year appenticeship of sacrificing for their offspring. The last 7 or so involving an individual who has often demonstrated their focused contempt and loathing for said parent as a result of hormonal imbalance. Whilst it is certainly true that they would be raptured at the thought of their offspring achieving something positive and leaving home, that same home has been expensively aquired, and not likely to be sacrificed purely on the demonstrated wit, wisdom and enthusiasm of the fruit of their loins. Believe me!

Cadets may in a few cases have become bankrupt, but that is an entirely seperate issue to their guarantors. Bankruptcy affects many individuals, and will be more prevalent amongst people who have large individual borrowings and little or no income. That isn't being glib, since few people are more than a couple of pay checks away from being in very difficult circumstances. Of course this is why lenders now require guarantors and security. The same holds true in many aspects of financial commitment, not simply flight training candidates.

In summary, busineses 10 years ago, now, and in 10 years time will still need to make a profit in order to survive. Adaptability, change and innovation will be the key to that survival. Quality and the perception of quality will need to be ensured if the customers are to keep coming back.

If you are selling an expensive product, be it a Ferrari, a luxury cruise, or a course of flight training, it is a limited market place. Any business in this marketplace knows its survival will depend on the quality, cachet, and desirability of the product being maintained.

Oh yes, and parents are not usually as stupid as their offspring have grown up believing, something they in turn will eventually discover for themselves.

[The flying bob]

I wouldn't worry too much for CTC guys... For having been at their training center in Nursling I can tell they are very very very busy.
People tend to forget that AB-initio pilot training is only a part of the business. They type rate HUNDREDS of guys every year (recently some 737 TR for Oman Air and Viking).
When you know that they didn't pay A PENNY for the 737 sim, guess how much profit they make of it.
Not to forget the hundreds of cadets going through the A320 TR from whom CTC gets a hell lot of money..

I wouldn't worry too much for the welfare of the business, things are working well for them.

As I said earlier, I found the training absolutely outstanding I simply think the price is for many an obstacle, which shouldn't be (and wasn't back in the days!!)

[THRILLSEEKER]

You are quite correct CTC did not pay a penny for the 737-800 sim, however they do not own it, Rockwell Collins still do.

CTC do have to pay RC everytime the sim us used on an 'by hour basis'... I'm sure they are not out of pocket when it's being used though ;)

[alpha.charlie]

My point of view : Outstanding training, amazing facilities and some real job prospect after, but if you have to borrow the amount, probably not the best option.

Have you been in the A320 sims at Nursling?! Amazing is not a word I'd use to describe them!

[systematically]

So a TRUE bit is... There have been cadets that have gone bankrupt from the CTC scheme. But now the loans have to be secured so the banks don't loose their money. ie Now the Guarantors will have to keep up the payments... mmm that sounds better? So we wont see anymore bankrupts just guarantors wishing they hadn't signed that @#$% Guarantor form.

I have to take issue with the word "anything."

Ok your right, I would like to change that to Parents will do "almost anything". Even if the children are teenage puss face brats. Most parents will be a Gurantor for their child when they want to get a house mortgage (even if it is to get them to leave home), so i don't see why a parent wouldn't grantee a child's education. But now they will only be allowed to if they can afford to pay it.

About CTC making money...
I was just talking about the CTC NZ company. Which I think is a separate company to UK CTC . The ab-initio part was set up to feed more cadets into the SIM where the money is being made. The NZ company was making a huge loss and management was going to close it unless they made a profit.

In summary, busineses 10 years ago, now, and in 10 years time will still need to make a profit in order to survive. Adaptability, change and innovation will be the key to that survival. Quality and the perception of quality will need to be ensured if the customers are to keep coming back.

Here is another scenario... Pour money into building up a quality product and get lots of customers. Then to make money cut quality and make lots more money by charging the same (or more). This will work as long as there is a lag between the manufacturing and end product. Because the QA looking at the end product wont notice until they get the finished product. So you have a window (two years training?) to make money. Then when the customers see the quality drop the company will just close the doors and retire with the money. You can also live off the quality reputation for a while.
This is how some companies work now days and which is why some companies don't last very long.

From the results I've seen recently there has been no decline in pass rates. You are making some fairly strong allegations against CTC's training standards.
In fact, you are trotting out a random bag-full of statements, some of which true - bankruptcy, parents selling things - and some downright libelous, as above. It just sounds like an uncontrolled expulsion of ranting and it makes you look silly.

You agree on my statements about bankruptcy and parents selling things, (I hope that doesn't make you look silly too) Now we will have to wait and see if my Quality statements are true as well.

[HPbleed]

Failed selection systematically? Not sure how else you could be so bitter about a company you seemingly know little about.

Ah it appears you are a cadet in the holdpool. May be best not to slag off the company that are trying their best to find you a jet job then.

[The African Dude]

No, it doesn't make me look silly. If being right or wrong is more important to you than presenting an opinion in a non-emotionally-charged manner then you must be right about CTC's selection - how did they let you slip through?!

[systematically]

African Dude... Yep I had the cash up front.
HP bleed... How could anyone fail selection?? Never got a PR2 (costs the company too much money). And if you do get a PR2 it will be remedied in the cheapest way.

Any productive comments from you guys about the topics of discussion?

Prove me wrong about the quality dropping and cost issues if you want.

[Bealzebub]

Beyond an obvious rant, it is quite difficult to understand what point you are making. As end users (if you will) we are not seeing any noticeable drop in standards. The people coming through this system appear to be reasonably stable, mature, sensible individuals with a solid grounding and a keen ability to learn quickly. I have already said that, if that changes I will let you know.

You seem obsessed with people "loosing" their houses. By the way the word you want is "losing." A tile on the roof of said house may be loose, but the owner will only lose it after the wind has blown it away. The cost of this course is very much on par with that charged for similar integrated flight training courses by other primary establishments such as Oxford or FTE. At around £80,000 - £90,000, that is not all cheap, but that is the price. Obviously only those with the resouces to afford these prices will be able to afford these programmes. There are alternative methods of aquiring pilots licences, either by necessity or choice.

One of the visible advantages of these courses, is that the airline partners are keen on the end product. They feel that the ab-initio training and assesments that these candidates have received, is consistent with that found in an airline environment. Despite the very low experience levels, the candidates training has all been airline orientated, and as such the candidates tend to have very much the right attitude. This makes them quick learners, with a good background of CRM methodology and techniques. The airline partners also have a good understanding of the candidates training history and background, when they make their initial selections. Even in good times these cadet pilots are on at least a six month probationary period, so if any one didn't make the grade for whatever reason, that placement would be terminated.

Although you seem a little angry at the state of the global economy and how it affects a companies need to adapt, as well as consequences for reckless borrowers etc. that is not the fault of the training organisations. At the very pinnacle of this particular food chain, the airlines themselves are all having to adapt to survive. Terms and conditions of employment are in almost every case being culled and modified in attempts to ensure that survival.

Make no mistake, if the airlines see any reduction in the quality of the product, such that the product no longer represents value for money, then they will purchase elsewhere. They do this for virtually every service they are already contracted to, be that caterers, handling agencies, cleaners, hotel providers, transportation companies, etc. The providers are well aware of this. CTC are no doubt well aware of these realities, they as a company already live by these realities. They have also been around for quite a while now and have worked to achieve the reputation they have.

All companies and individuals must adapt to survive. These are difficult economic times and that adaption should reflect the realities of the current marketplace. You can make a delicious meal whether the basic ingredients came from Harrods, Tesco's, Asda's, Lidl's, or off the local market stall. Sometimes it takes a little more effort, but often the end result is the same.

If by any chance you witness high end equipment being cleared out of the offices and classrooms, and being loaded into packing boxes destined for the Cayman Islands, then let us know. Likewise if we see any change in the quality of this companies product we will let you know, I promise.

To all the men and women I glibly refer to as "product," please accept my apologies. It is done for the purpose of analogy and comparison, and to take some of the emotion out of the observation and discussion.

[Air_One]

I cant imagine there has been any drop in standards. It is clearly in CTCs interests that you pass - and the standard for issuing a commercial pilot license is well defined by the relevant authorities.

The biggest question still has to be about job prospects ?
Spending 100K for 12+ months in a hold pool then 'flexi-crew' is probably not such a great deal ? Especially if you need to renew instrument ratings in that time.

However if you do eventually gain a full time contract then CTC might be considered a reasonable longer term investment ?

[systematically]

Bealzebub

The people coming through this system appear to be reasonably stable, mature, sensible individuals with a solid grounding and a keen ability to learn quickly. I have already said that, if that changes I will let you know.

If you are seeing the end product then you wont see the drop in standards for a year or more. I agree the "product" in the past has been all of those things you have said.

But to make myself clear there are two points that I would like to make.
1. Selection has changed and just about anyone with the cash can get in. (I have also herd that the instructors in NZ have NO selection at all anymore. They previously did the same/similar selection as cadets) This will obviously save a lot of money and reduce standards also.

2. The quality of the new course has been reduced. The new course started about Feb 2010. So you wont see the cadets until late 2011 (depending what stage you see them.)

Let us know how the standard holds out against all these odds.

[kingofkabul]

Sorry to post a bit off-topic, but does anyone know what proportion of cadets at CTC end up at easyjet or on flexicrew? They list quite a few airlines as 'partners' - just wondering if one were to go through CTC what are the potential non-easyjet prospects? Obviously at present it has been predominately easyjet, I'm just trying to get a feel of where cadets end up in a 'normal' year. I Don't fancy ever signing-up to a purely orange future! ...before people flame me, I'm in no rush to sign up to this, or any other scheme just yet!

[The flying bob]

Easyjet is the only one really for us european... Some cadets have been placed with Thomas cook and Monarch few times in the past but it is very marginal..
Today, if you sign up for the scheme it's more likely to be for easyjet..
The list of partner is only to attract people and make them think they'll get the best out of CTC.. They recently told someone on a selection day that EMIRATES was about to become a new partner... :ok::ok::ok::ugh:
You won't be bonded for ever, you will only give 3 years of your life to the orange monster then get a better job with your 2000+ jet hours..

[sharpclassic]

Emirates?!

HAHAHA!

Are they that desperate to get people to sign up?!

[systematically]

The airline list is a list of airlines that CTC has talked to in the last few years in desperation to get them to take on CTC's cadets. They are by no means 'Partner' airlines. If you rang most of these airlines they would be surprised to find them mentioned as 'Partners' to CTC. (they would probably ask who is CTC?)
Just more of the deception that goes on...

[wirefly84]

Just wondered what peoples view are on any trend changes in the industry now.I myself have started seeing people i know getting called up for type ratings and some have now got start dates.Does anyone else have similar stories to tell? Just that i noticed this thread has been dead for a while so thought id try to inject some life back into it!

[reivax]

Can anyone tell me about the size of the cadets pool right now?
Have they taken some guys from the ATP pool yet?
Thanks guys

[cloud9dk]

EasyJet have confirmed that they will be taking a huge chunk of the holding pool between now and next spring. That will take what is in the holding pool right now. So then that leaves the people that will join the holding pool between now and spring which I am guessing to be about 100 people. This is just an estimate.

Considering that the holding pool was in the 200's only a couple of months ago, this is a big move in the right direction

Figures right now can be mis leading due to the large numbers of people now being type rated.

As I said this is just an estimate, so take it with a pinch of salt!

[drewk]

im new to this forum, so first of all, hello to all.

it seems a lot of this thread revolves around people in the pro CTC and anti CTC camps having a go at each other, which as someone who dreams of being a Commercial Airline Pilot in the future, slightly puts me off.

firstly if someone were to try to apply to the CTC cadet scheme with no flying experience and just a basic knowledge of aviation, what would their realistic chances of getting on to the scheme be? not saying this is me, but im not too much ahead of this level to be honest...

secondly, if CTC arent the best out there with regards to "cadet" schemes getting you qualified from "zero to hero" if you will, who else out there offers similar schemes?

i really am fully 100% committed to getting qualified in the next few years and am willing to do what it takes to get there, but unfortunately i am one of those people with very little of my own money, so the CTC scheme looks soooo promising to me, weather it is worth it or not i am unsure...

i plan to go to the open day on 5th March 2011 to see what is what with it all, and hopefully my parents will attend also so that they can verify the financial implications of the scheme and what happens firstly if i get accepted and secondly if i complete it and end up with no job.

everything seems so... forgive the pun... up in the air for someone for whom this is a dream job and not just a fun pastime. i couldnt afford for it to just be an enjoyment thing right now (but i will enjoy it very much and in the future i hope to be able to fly for enjoyment as well as work).

ive had very little flying experience, around 2hours in a wee 4 seater, but im sooooo unbelievably hooked it is unreal!! i would sell my right leg to be a pilot, but then that wouldnt be very sensible...

so if anyone can point me in the right direction or suggest the best route to take in getting to my goal then please let me know.

[drewk]

thats the sort of answer i expected, didnt want to hear it, but i think i knew already that when something looks too good to be ture it usually is! so i will steer clear i think and explore other routes into the commercial pilot world!

might see what the prospects are in the Republic of Ireland, since i live up north, could be a sensible option.

thanks for the advice! :ok:

[Bealzebub]

However on the other side of the coin.

I have worked as a Captain for the same UK airline for the last 25 years. We were one of CTC's early partners and I have flown with many of CTC's cadet pilots from the very early days.

I have never failed to be impressed by the standard of those pilots who have joined us from this route, and what they lack in experience is to a significant extent made up for in their training background, CRM awareness, learning ability and general professionalism.

Many of our early cadets have not only gone on to become excellent captains, but many have gone further into training roles and more recently management positions.

As far as low hour/experience pilots is concerned we have only ever sourced from recognised training routes and particularly CTC. Outside of this route we have a minimum general requirement of around 2000 hours with at least 500 hours on jet or heavy turboprop equipment. There is no problem in finding candidates who meet those minimum requirements, and cadet pilots are always likely to come from training programmes that are recognised by our own training management and insurers.

These programmes are monitored carefully and designed to integrate with our normal career progressions.

In many respects we are no different from a lot of other companies who also from time to time operate similar schemes.

So would I recommend them? Based on my own long term experience of the end product. Yes!

Is there any guarantee of a job at the end of the course? No!

[drewk]

from what i gather so far, in the past it seems CTC were an excellent route into the dream job, but now it seems the current economic climate has taken over making it a bit too much of a gamble, it will always be a gamble, but the odds seem more heavily stacked against getting a job at the end of it.

i may still go to the open day in march to see for myself, but as much as i want the job, i cant risk my familys future just to try to secure my dream.

will it help me to get as much small plane flight lessons as possible before making a firm decision on my route into the career?

the main problem is the cash, its just sooooo hard to get together the kind of money required to actually train to be a pilot in the first place! :sad:

[Bealzebub]

Yes, absolutely!

You must do your own research and decide what is right for you in your own circumstances.

There are no easy solutions, or unfortunetaly any cheap ones anymore.

Despite the poor economic environment, there have also been legislative and regulatory changes over the last decade that has caused some confusion and indeed some delusion in the expectations of a few wannabe pilots.

There has never been anything other than a very small market for 200 hour airline pilots. Historically, pilot aspirants would work their way up through entry level jobs until their experience and hours qualified them for consideration for the positions that became available. At this level they were often competing with some of the excellent candidates that were transferring out of military careers into civilian roles. Into this mix, a few airlines would take a few pilots from recognised and integrated training schools.

These training schools were "approved" to turn out "licenced commercial pilots" with around 200-250 hours experience, with their ATPL examinations completed. The courses were integrated, single provider and full time learning schemes, with syllabuses that were recognised, overseen and approved by the state regulator.

With the introduction of JAR the licencing regime was changed so that modular students (who might previously have been termed "self improvers,") and required at least 700 hours experience to acquire a basic CPL, could now obtain that same licence with around 250 hours. In essence this brought the licensing experience based requirements, more into line with those found in other countries (particularly the USA) where the CPL was seen more as an "aerial work" licence, rather than an airline pilot qualification. As a result aerial work jobs (such as flight instruction) which could previously have been done on a PPL, now required a CPL (at slightly higher experience levels) in order to fulfill those roles.

By strict definition, it also meant that anybody clutching a CPL (with their 250 hours) could potentially be employed to sit in the right hand seat of a commercial airliner. During this same time period, the rapid expansion of new entrant "Lo-Cost" airlines meant that some new practices were introduced. One or two sought to reduce their operating costs by meeting the minimum legal requirement of putting a basic licence holder into the right hand seat. Not I hasten to add as a "First Officer" on the terms that prevailed previously, but as "pay to fly," "self employed," "entry level" etc.

The recession coupled with an extension to legal retirement ages, has rather clouded this market. In some quarters it has grown unchecked, but in many others there is still a recognised level of experience and qualification needed for these jobs.

Unfortunetaly (and perhaps understandably) it has led a great many people to believe that if you get 200 hours flying experience anywhere in the world, and a licence, airlines will be tripping over themselves to hire you. The truth is they won't, they aren't, and they never have.

There are always routes into aviation, and those routes will differ from individual to individual based on their own resources, ability, luck and experience. That has always been the case as well.

My own view is that at the present moment in time, in the past, and almost certainly in the future the best hope of an airline career with only a couple of hundred hours is via an integrated course through a training / airline partner programme.

Outside of this route, 200 hours will get you an aerial work licence which hopefully will give you the tool to acquire the necessary experience to be considered for airline pilot vacancies at the requisite level, many years down the road. Having said that, jobs everywhere are few and far between. They rarely remunerate at much above a survivable level, and progression can often be thwarted by the "fast track" integrated programmes, where those programmes are economically beneficial to the partner airlines.

That is why I answered the way I did. Of course the option is simply not there for everybody, and many people will consider it unpalatable, undesirable or simply beyond their means.

[drewk]

so by the sounds of it, getting as many lessons first, and possible trying to get my PPL (maybe get a loan to do this as quickly as possible?) would really help in the longrun?

i take it people with the PPL are more likely to get into such schemes?

is there a thread on FTE Jerez here anywhere? im still finding my way around the site!

oh and thanks to everyone so far for their help, it has in my opinion all been constructive, which is what i wanted, so i am very pleased!

dont suppose there are any very very rich people here reading this who would fancy lending me about 100k? worth a try i suppose!!!!!;)

[drewk]

just an update,

i sent CTC an enquiry via their website, and they were good enough to take the time to get back to me and answer my questions very honsetly, so i would just like to say that was very pleasing.

hats off to them! weather i go for ti with them or not is still be be decided, but i am more likely to go to their open day now!

[darkroomsource]

@drewk
You wouldn't want to post those answers would you?
It might be nice to let us all see what they have to say.

[27/09]

answer my questions very honsetly

How do you know that?

Watch out for very clever spin. There is often more in what is not said than is what actually said.

Also some statements will be put in such a way that you will gain a desired inference which might not be the true picture. e.g. All of our aircraft have blah blah blah. Designed to make you think that other provider's aircraft don't have blah blah blah when in fact they do.

Places like CTC and Oxford have very slick PR machines.

Caveat Emptor

[systematically]

Yea we were fed the "honesty" too.

Things have changed folks. CTC is not producing a high quality product anymore. The low cost operators are about to be fed some pretty poor products, but they wont see the product for 6 -12 months (plus the holdpool wait).

Eventually JAA/CAA will be forced into doing what the FAA, NZCAA and some other ICAO states have done, that is introduce an hours requirement to fly a jet. Usually 1500hrs. (Australia CASA is investigating this now).

In my opinion it is becoming recognised the Oxfords and CTC's cannot produce a quality product and still make money. CTC made a loss in NZ when they were producing a quality product (2006ish), now they have to make money at all costs.

[wirefly84]

stematically , what evidence do you have to back up this 'poor product' that you speak of? The majority of the time, captains that have flew with ex CTC cadets have nothing but good things to say about them.Surely if many are passing IR and CPL first attempt they are meeting standards surely? Would be greatfull if you could maybe elaborate on your previous point.

[The African Dude]

Systematically, my training captain doesn't think I'm a 'poor product' so we'd all be quite grateful if you got your facts in place...

[systematically]

The African Dude and wirefly84. Fortunately you went through CTC when they had the money and quality to spend. Your courses were complete and you had good training. So
Unfortunately the standard has dropped since. CTCNZ was not making money and there were some severe cuts in the training. The new version 10 syllabus is only 148.5 hrs and all other hour requirements are on minimums. They don't even get a full lesson on PFL'S. Version 10 you have to log lots of IF time on your VFR navs to meet the IF time required. (even if you didn't really fly 1.5 IF of a 1.8 VFR nav.

So please re-read my post... "CTC is not producing a high quality product anymore.... but they wont see the product for 6 -12 months" That probably dosn't include you guys.

None of the new Syllabus Cadets have hit the market yet... Time will tell and until then CTC will live in it's reputation only. Thats where you guys have been advocates for CTC.

[systematically]

Just looking at the syllabus now... Version 6.4 syllabus has two PFL lessons. The first lesson is just flying the pattern the second is dedicated to the emergency checks and procedures.
Syllabus Version 10 has only one lesson that covers everything (FJ018) PFL's. So I was wrong they still have PFL's its just half the amount.

I'm beginning to repeat myself here.. NONE of the new Syllabus guys are doing ME CPL's and IR's yet...

Factors against maintaining a high pass rate are
1 Less training (Syllabus hours have been cut back to minimum)
2 Selection is not as selective.. 1-3% selection rates in 2005-06. Now based on who can pay.
3 There are no Cadets removed from the course due to poor performance
4 Instructor experience decreased markedly in the last 6 months

[systematically]

Ummm O.K
Most of what I have said is common knowledge and easily accessable. You must be living in fairy land if you can't see it. Look it up for yourself
Sources are
1. Syllabus Versions 6.4 and Version 10.
2. You would know! You tell us how to get into CTC if you "fail" selection.
3. Ask the CP's before about CP50 this question. "How many were kicked off your course?"
4. Ask your instructor how many experienced instructors have left in the last 12 months. (ie Multi Instrument instructors)

A smart cookie like yourself should be able to find the evidence and look at it objectively. Or is the selection process worse than I thought?

[27/09]

Scott Flyer

I don't know if all of Systematically's statements are correct but I have heard that somethings are being doubled up, like doing dual navs under the hood so that the flight time can be counted towards both cross country nav time and IF time. If this is true it sounds a bit dodgy to me.

It seems likely that some of what Systematically is saying might be true.

[763 jock]

Jobs Galore? (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/12/03/350216/ctc-reports-record-revival-in-demand-for-pilot-training.html)

[Zippy Monster]

Good to see the old CTC PR machine is alive and well! I have no idea about the selection quality etc, but it's good to see that some things never change!

[Nigel32]

Hi All, just wondering what downsides associated with training with CTC? See they have an excellent placement record, is this primarily with Easyjet?
Also, they seem to shout about their flight test results a good bit, but they never seem to identify source in mags such as airliner world...always make one sceptical?

[James D]

Hi All, just wondering what downsides associated with training with CTC? See they have an excellent placement record,

Yeah it's great get your money in quick.

[scorched]

Hey

Just to comment on some points that Systematically has raised. Most of what he/she said is actually true (like the reduction in syllibus hours to minimums, no one gets kicked off anymore and the instructors leaving). But what systematically has forgotten is the fact that the instructors have worked very hard to maintain standards. They often do a lot more work per sortie and are very professional despite the difficulties.
Over the last few years there have been some dedicated instructors that care about your future and go the extra mile, without extra pay or reward. (in fact at times management has fired or reduced their hours in the last 12 months).
So don't forget to buy them a bottle of wine (or two).

[27/09]

So don't forget to buy them a bottle of wine (or two).They deserve more than the odd bottle or two of wine and from what I hear more than a couple of them have been very happy to move to greener pastures recently.

[kingofkabul]

Hi guys/gals

Does anyone know what the hourly Flexi-crew rate is for F/Os at easyJet? I understand it starts at about £50/sbh (after the 8 months at £1,200 net per month) and rises at increments determined by flight hours with easy. Anyone have a breakdown of this? I've searched on here but to no avail....

I'm trying to build a simple spreadsheet to see how poor I will be after loan repayments in the first couple of years if I go down this route... will be budgeting it on flying 700 hours per year. Are there any other forms of income from easy/CTC e.g. pay for standby days, LOL, or does one just go into flexi-easy-CTC with a large pot of vaseline?

Cheers, kofk

[Grass strip basher]

alpha.charlie you can't be serious?
Who does the decision lie with on this one? The aircraft commander or is this handed down from the great ivory towers??
Is this an easy company policy?

[gbotley]

Hello,

I've finally found a good forum community related to piloting... thanks for this!!

Anyway, first post...

Is the CTC Wings program any good in terms of employment? - I notice a bond is necessary but no hints are made as to how much this actually is? - Anyone found out from experience..

Airline world is a bit catch 22 at the moment. Modular pilots aren't favoured unless directly entered into airlines with lots of hours and Integrated trained pilots are taken by companies only where jobs arise.. and guessing by the interest in CTC or FTEJerez the queues for employment must be crazily long.

Any advice on a route to take guys?

From UK by the way.

[giggitygiggity]

How are the cadet groups made up at CTC?

As I understand, a new course starts every 7 weeks or so and each course has something like 12-15 students. These groups are called CP70, CP71 etc. On one course, is there a mix of Wings cadets and iCP students or are they all separate? I ask because I have heard that there are around 150 wings cadets each year, but I am sure I have read that they train around 1200-1900 pilots a year and I cant see how this really fits together. Don't quote me on any of those figures, they are simply what I have read recently in my research.

Thank you please

[One9iner]

Between 10 and 20 cadets join a new CP every 2 months. This is a mixture of Wings Cadets and iCP cadets. Currently I think CP86 / 87 is the newest CP. I could be wrong though.

The total figure of pilots trained per year by CTC also includes Jetstar cadets, NZ cadets, Japanese degree cadets, and Vietnamese cadets. As well as cadets, CTC will also type rate ATP cadets and other experienced pilots.

So the total number of UK cadets (wings and icp) will be around 120 per year. But that figure is much higher when taking all other areas of CTC's business into account.

[SkyHighSonar]

Hi chaps,

I'm not looking to invite a slaughter, but was just interested to know what the general consensus is for beginning flight training within the next few months in context of the last year or two (which I do of course realise have been quite clearly hurrendous).

I ask because I am provisionally booked in to start training with CTC in April, and frankly the decision of whether to go ahead with it is one of the most categorically difficult I have faced in my life to date. I am all too aware of the abysmal T's & C's for new pilots, but with hints of things improving (which, with even BA recruiting, surely must be true to some extent) it will chip away at me for years if I know I had the chance and didn't have the guts to take it.

That said I'm not about to commit financial suicide if I genuinely believe it is a real likelihood, however I can only base it on what information I have. CTC say their hold pool is only in the 20's (take from that what you will), and decreasing still. For those of us with huge aspirations and no benefit of hindsight, it's very difficult to pass up this sort of opportunity, even if it means slumming it as EasyJet's rent boy for a few years.

Comments always appreciated.

[BlackandBrown]

Only you can decide. Taking advice on here from anyone, be it positive or negative should be worthless to you. You know what you stand to lose if it goes wrong and you know how much you want to do it. Your decision will flow through the point of least resistance.

[kingofkabul]

SkyHighSonar,

I'm pretty much in same boat as you. over recent years I think CTC has proven to be the best of all the schools for getting a job - but again I'm going to hold out for a few months to see if anything more interesting comes along e.g. mentored schemes from FTE Jerez.

A few of my mates went into flight schools in 2008 after university. I decided it was a bad time for it, but of those people ALL who went to CTC got jobs, and NONE who went to Jerez/OAA got jobs. For me that says a lot.

Good luck with your decision.

[DooblerChina]

SkyHighSonar

I joined CTC in 2003, I was on CP less than 5, I borrowed £65000. I have been paying that off for the last 6 years and will continue to pay that off for 1 more. It costs me 1500/month but fortunately I get paid reasonably.

It now seems the course is more expensive and you will need to factor in a type rating (20K?)

So you will be paying off 1500/month for more like 10 years.

Then you should consider what you will get paid when you get your shiny jet contract. 1200/month? That means you will be losing 300/month before you factor in the fact that you will need to eat & drink & live!

Now I can't pretend to be privvy to the exact figures, I am estimating from some good friends who currently work for the Orange brigade but Im sorry, anyone considering a career in aviation right now need their heads read.

Good luck with your decision.