The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[Night_fr8]

I hate to say it but !!!!!

I agree with WWW, there are next to No Jobs out there unless you know someone who can put a word in for you, its not what you know any longer its who you know.

Bankruptcy is no an option for many as the loan was secured on property and the financial collapse will bring down the creditors on the person who put their property up as security.

Only non secured loans can achieve the Bankruptcy goal.

As for the ex XL people I am extreemly sorry for their predicament, but sorry wont pay their bills.
The OAA students who finished last / this year had loans in their names and were receiving additional payments from XL to cover their loans, now nothing.

For the CTC guys along with many others its going to be a long, Hard cold winter.
I agree with Day Dreamer, you are under paid and under valued and from the CTC viewpoint a cheap pilot who can maximise their profits.
There is no guarantee that after 6 months you will not be returned into the holding pool while Easyjet can take on more cheap pilots.

Whilst I agree that under current economics to have lower cost pilots is good for the company bottom line, I feel that the prospects for those in the CTC holding pool are the lowest they have been for many years.
Brush off the backup plan, and like Day Dreamer said get take any aviation job that comes your way.

[Aerospace101]

What you have to realise, accept, believe is that there will be No Jobs for two years.

I think flybe will be a steady recruiter for low hours. The flybe business model seems to be holding up very robust agains the current turmoil, plus their continued expansion. Good news for the fte/cabair/oaa grads. Bad news for the CTC cadets as I dont think they are a partner airline.

How long before CTC jumps on the Ryanair bandwagon!?

[ctctim]

morning alll...

im starting training at ctc on dec 1st in hamilton, and staying at i think its called peachgrove? correct me if im wrong, just wondering whats this accommodation like? and also when you guys were in New Zealand did you get many weekends off? sorry if this is a repost of such or if it is in wrong thread.

Tim

[k8tyl123]

peachgrove is correct indeed! last time i was there it was fine! comfy beds! good atmosphere from what ppl told me recently. And the time off kinda varies, initially while ur doing groundschool u might get saturday afternoon and sunday off, then once ur flying it just varies depending how much or little flyin ur doing! And u'll prob wanna grab any chance u can get to go flying even if it means being in on weekends. Hope that helps! Kx

[ctctim]

cool thanks for that! how long is it from when you start ground school til when you start your flying?

thanks for your help much appreciated

[komac2]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/images/768353.jpg KELLY HODEL/Waikato Times
STINKER: The pilot of this CTC Aviation plane from Hamilton escaped injury after it overshot the runway and landed in the sewage ponds beside the Thames airfield yesterday morning.



Pilot a bit flushed after landing in sewage pond

By BELINDA FEEK ([email protected]) - Waikato Times | Tuesday, 28 October 2008

A pilot got himself in the poo yesterday after his plane overshot the runway coming in to land at the Thames airfield.

The pilot - from Hamilton's training school, CTC Aviation - made a sudden landing and ended up dunked in the town's sewage pond system.
Crew Training Centre Aviation chief executive John Jones said the man was on a navigation exercise to build up his flying hours.
However, a suspected engine problem near Thames meant the pilot was caught short - and had to make an immediate landing.
"It wasn't weather or wind. We think there was a cough in the engine, but we're not sure yet." The plane had since been pulled out of the pond and was grounded until it had been inspected.
Mr Jones said it was unlikely the Civil Aviation Authority would be called in and the pilot was uninjured.
"It's not a serious issue. When you put it into perspective we do 45,000 flying hours a year, which is probably the most out of all the airlines in New Zealand apart from Air New Zealand."
Mr Jones said the pilot was uninjured.
"He was fine. Just a bit wet."
He didn't think the pilot realised what he had landed in.
Mr Jones said he was impressed with the way the pilot handled himself and the incident.
"I think he did quite well to be honest. You get these things."
The Thames SPCA is next to the airfield and manager Rebecca Pearson said the pilot came over to use their phone.
"He was good. He was pretty much in shock and very wet ... He wasn't wanting to say too much."
Ms Pearson said of all the ponds to land in, it was probably the best as it contained the less concentrated effluent.

Waikato Times: local, national & world news from Waikato's daily newspaper (http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikatotimes/4741791a6004.html)

[ctctim]

haha yeah funny sh*t saw that on the news, goodtimes lol

[komac2]

3 News > Video > National > Pilot crash lands into sewage pond (http://www.3news.co.nz/Pilot-crash-lands-into-sewage-pond/tabid/309/articleID/77390/Default.aspx?ArticleID=77390#video)

Pilot crash lands into sewage pond

http://www.3news.co.nz/Portals/0-Articles/77390/planedunking_180.jpg
Mon, 27 Oct 2008 6:44p.m.

A trainee pilot created a stink after crashing his plane off the runway at Thames Airport this morning, landing in a sewage pond.
The man was flying solo and scrambled from the cockpit after the splash landing. The only injury he suffered was to his pride and his shoes.
"He got out by himself and swam a short distance to shore," Constable Steve Malloy says. "He was checked by the ambulance crew and was fine."
The pilot was a trainee with CTC Aviation, but did not want to talk about the incident.
CTC's chief executive John Jones says the pilot heard his engine cough during the botched landing, but it is too early to say what caused it.
Engineers have not decided if the plane can be repaired, but it is likely to have been badly damaged by the highly acidic effluent.
3 News

[flightless_bird]

morning alll...

im starting training at ctc on dec 1st in hamilton, and staying at i think its called peachgrove? correct me if im wrong, just wondering whats this accommodation like? and also when you guys were in New Zealand did you get many weekends off? sorry if this is a repost of such or if it is in wrong thread.

Tim

There are three (main) accommodation places in Hamilton and in terms of locations...

Clearways, the main one, is here:
-37.844427, 175.339737 - Google Maps (http://tinyurl.com/6ynkw6)

Knox St is here:
7 Knox Street, Hamilton, New Zealand - Google Maps (http://tinyurl.com/ytm945)

Peachgrove is here:
44 Peachgrove Rd, Hamilton, New Zealand - Google Maps (http://tinyurl.com/5pfaw6)

I'll let you find the airport yourself.

[one post only!]

Always used to think that if you ever had to ditch you would be right in the poo but............! All in all thats bit of a sh1tter isn't it!!! :)

[flightless_bird]

...
1K a month for 6 months is hard i know but its only for 6 months and i dont have to fork out 30k for a type rating.
...


Cpt SC, I hate to be the devil's advocate here but my understanding is the reason that CTC cadets only get paid £1000 for the first six months is that the remainder of their salary is used by the airline to pay CTC for the cadets' type rating. So you are in effect funding your own type rating (but at a much reduced rate so in a lot of ways it is still a good thing).


I predict dozens and possibly hundreds of 'cadets' with £80k bonds of whatever flavour will be standing in front of the Bankruptcy Court in 2009/2010.
...


And I believe that there is a clause in the contract which prevents cadets declaring themselves bankrupt to avoid their loans.

[no sponsor]

If you're bankrupt, you're bankrupt - you cannot pay your creditors. It is for a judge to decide and stamp your bankruptcy petition, not CTC! The judge may of course reject your application.

However, the 12 months following your bankruptcy can see the court imposing a repayment program if you do then start earning money of sufficient quantities which they consider should be paid to your creditors. That can last up to 5 years.

[ctctim]

in a way im glad im doing it in new zealand cos we get the student loans etc and no matter what happens we just paying a percentage of our salary back to the govt till payed off, although would love to be able to get type rating like you guys.

another few questions....

how long into the ground school will i start flying? are us kiwis in classes with the british people?

cheeeers for the help.

[Aerospace101]

I see the ctc cadets are not just landing themselves in huge amounts of debt but are landing in vast amounts of SH*T :}

[sharpclassic]

A few things all prospective CTCers should know.

1. It is not a sponsored scheme.

From the CTC Wings Cadet site...
The CTC Wings Cadet Programme is a sponsored programme, which means you won't be paying for your training

Total Bo**ocks. You pay £60,000, or whatever it is these days. IF (and I'll come to this later) you get a permanent job at the end, your salary is £12,000 a year less than the normal F/O salary which goes to paying back your loan.... plus interest. You are paying for your training. End of.

2. CTC have created this pilot excess themselves.
Once upon a time, there were 4-6 cadets a course. Now there are 16 (give or take a few). In the current climate, it would be hard enough placing 4 cadets a month, let alone 16. Money talks.

3. The scheme is designed for airlines to take on dirt cheap pilots for 6 months and enable them to dump them at the end should they so desire. If the airline then wants more pilots, they can take a new batch of dirt cheap pilots and keep this cycle going.

End result? A rapidly growing pile of type rated pilots with 400hrs on type with little to no job prospects anywhere else. It is the reality. It's happening now. Wake up to it.

4. Wings iCP is a money making product using their currently good name.
Chief Pilot: So you went through CTC?
Cadet: Yes.
Chief Pilot: So did you do the Wings Cadet or Wings iCP?
Cadet: iCP
Chief Pilot: Why?
Cadet:...................................?

I am stating facts, not opinions. Feel free to deduce any opinions that you wish.

[ctctim]

cheers for that mate much appreciated, looking forward to life down there! hopefully it aint too frustrating on the ground just wanting to fly haha.

is this eagle placement just a one off or is it looking to be continued? i heard from a pilot that they might have mucked up a lil bit in the process? hope not but good on them for getting through!

[flightless_bird]

If you're bankrupt, you're bankrupt - you cannot pay your creditors. It is for a judge to decide and stamp your bankruptcy petition, not CTC! The judge may of course reject your application.
...


Sorry, I meant the loan contract with the bank, not the training contract with CTC so you are right: it is not up to CTC to decide whether you are bankrupt or not.

[flightless_bird]

A few things all prospective CTCers should know.

1. It is not a sponsored scheme.
...
3. The scheme is designed for airlines to take on dirt cheap pilots for 6 months and enable them to dump them at the end should they so desire. If the airline then wants more pilots, they can take a new batch of dirt cheap pilots and keep this cycle going.
...


sharpclassic, you are right, even though CTC say that the scheme is sponsored in my mind it is not. You do indeed pay for your training and your salary (before the amount given to you for bond repayment) is £12,000 less per year. However at the same time you get a lot more training for your for £60,000 than you have actually paid for: namely the Airline Qualification Course (containing the Multicrew Co-operation Course and the Jet Orientation Course) and the cheap type-rating so you could argue that there is a sponsorship aspect there.

I do have to disagree with you with regards to your third point though. Apparently easyJet is actually treating the cadets they have not been able to offer positions to after their line training pretty well. While they are indeed not currently able to hire them currently they are continuing to pay them the portion of their salary which is used to repay their bond (£1,000 a month) and have said that they will offer them positions again when things pick up after the winter. This to me doesn't sound like an airline just dumping cadets in able to take up a new batch of dirt cheap pilots.

[jaimz1982]

Sharpclassic

'4. Wings iCP is a money making product using their currently good name.
Chief Pilot: So you went through CTC?
Cadet: Yes.
Chief Pilot: So did you do the Wings Cadet or Wings iCP?
Cadet: iCP
Chief Pilot: Why?
Cadet:...................................?'

Are you trying to ambigously say somethng? Do you have experience of this response?

I'm on the ICP scheme and quite proud of it. If I get that question then I will simply say I missed the maths by 2 questions, but was offered the ICP scheme. I then took it because I feel / felt that CTC would give me the best training from the FTO's available.

I would like to think that an employer would look at your training record as a whole and not the fact you missed one scheme by a very small margin.

[sharpclassic]

Flightless Bird,

Maybe so, but if EZY are unable to offer these guys full time contracts, why are a number of 'pay-to-fly' pilots being put throught their line training at this moment?


Jaimz,

All im saying is that the iCP scheme is no different from any other training school in the world. You pay your money, you get your licence.

[Tommy_uk]

Anyone been to the new phase 2/3 selection day in the past couple of months?

[EvelcyclopS]

did mine in september, gonna reapply in early march. good day, i recommend you stay there overnight so your as fresha s you can be ;), you'll also get some very helpful tips off some very nice people.

[flightless_bird]

...
Maybe so, but if EZY are unable to offer these guys full time contracts, why are a number of 'pay-to-fly' pilots being put throught their line training at this moment?
...


I do not know about this (and try to only talk about things that I do know about so that PPRuNe remains a useful resourse). One possibility though is that they have a contract with these pilots who are paying for their line training so are obliged to continue with their training even if they would rather it were the CTC cadets flying in their place but as I said I am not sure, sorry.

[no sponsor]

Those ATP guys and gals are a source of revenue for the airline. Although CTC cadets are cheaper than direct entry F/Os, the ATP cadets are making the airline money, so why would they stop offering seats which people pay for, even if they are at the pointy end?

[Melnaboo]

Maybe you think it is an abuse, but for a lot of us is the unique chance in our lifes to become an airline pilot.

From my point of view, CTC Wings is the people who will make my dream become real (if I am lucky), since I am in my reapplication.

Have good flights.

[Gary Lager]

easyJet is actually treating the cadets they have not been able to offer positions to after their line training pretty well. While they are indeed not currently able to hire them currently they are continuing to pay them the portion of their salary which is used to repay their bond (£1,000 a month) and have said that they will offer them positions again when things pick up after the winter. This to me doesn't sound like an airline just dumping cadets in able to take up a new batch of dirt cheap pilots.

That's with the proviso that if they agree to this deal then all other contracts/deals with EZY & CTC are considered expired.

Translation: we think you would have a chance of winning if you took us/CTC to court for breach of contract, so we're hoping you're desperate enough to take a pathetic amount of money to go away and keep quiet instead of fighting. Oh and easyJet can cancel this deal at any time (like, for instance, the week after you sign it and before you get any cash).

How does it sound like they're treating people now?

[clear prop!!!]

You know, when you analise these bonds, are they really not a rip off?

Are the airlines not claiming training grants, government subsidies, huge volume discounts from the training organisations etc etc then, adding admin charges etc etc, not to mention claiming back the VAT and setting the training cost off against profit and therefore corporation tax (if, they are in profit!!)

I wonder what the true cost of your bond really is!!

Just a thought!!

[jaimz1982]

Hi can some one PM me with the planes that are flown in New Zealand,

I've heard it's Cessnas and Robins, if so which ones?

Any helps appreciated,

Thanks

Jim

[One9iner]

Not too sure which Robins & Cessnas but they also have Diamond DA40 and the DA42 Twinstar

[Ronnie1982]

Hi Clear prop!!!

Just a few queries about your post above:

What training grants are you referring to?
Which government subsidies are available to airlines for pilot training?
How can the airlines get a volume discount from something they don't pay for?
To offset a cost against corporation tax, you need to spend something; if the airlines are not paying for the training, they cannot offset the costs, can they?
To reclaim VAT, an VAT registered organisation must first have paid the VAT as an input tax. Are the airlines paying VAT; if so, what on? If they are, then the net effect will be nil as thy will reclaim it, so what is the benefit to them?
What is included in the "etc, etc"?Not a journalist are you? Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. :ok:

[SA242]

There are no DA40's in NZ. Only DA20 and DA42's and the locally made Alpha. Cessna's change constantly, either because they end up in sewage works or due to lease arrangements but they had 172 R, S and older N models. Any of the older lads remember ELF or MDR?! Danger danger...

[SA242]

...nor anything else. I remember taking off one time after a large rain storm had passed and as we rotated water gushed out from the air vents at the top covering me and a certain temperamental female instructor with water. Atleast I didn't own a kebab shop.....

[one post only!]

Wait till you get on an Airbus then you will see some very "interesting" stuff...........!


BING, errrrr whats going on here then!!?!?!?! :)

[SA242]

Yes, reminds me of AQC on the 737-300. Failure of certain systems resulting in a badly decorated brightly lit Christmas tree miraculously forming above your head. Fantastic. Out with the 'What went wrong manual'...

[27/09]

Don't the papers print some c**p.

I couldn't believe that the article posted above referred to the incident at Thames, unless there was another one that ended up in the poo as well.

However, a suspected engine problem near Thames meant the pilot was caught short - and had to make an immediate landing.
"It wasn't weather or wind. We think there was a cough in the engine, but we're not sure yet."

Not sure about having to make an immediate landing. He went round twice before the touchdown that resulted in the over run.

It wasn't weather or wind, Really? Part of the reason for the go rounds and the over run I suspect were due to landing downwind.

A cough in the engine? If he had time for three approaches it would seem that the engine was running just fine.

Mr Jones said he was impressed with the way the pilot handled himself and the incident. "I think he did quite well to be honest

From what I heard probably not that well handled at all.

The plane had since been pulled out of the pond and was grounded until it had been inspected.


It will be grounded a bit longer than for just the time needed to inspect it. Quite a bit of work needed to fix it, the pond water is not all that kind to electrical equipment, plus there is at least a wing that needs repairing.

[27/09]

You might not be getting a type rating but you spend time on the Beech 1900 and several guys have, and are, in the process of selection with Air New Zealands' subsiduary Eagle.

I'm pretty sure the only way you get 1900 time is to work for Eagle. No one I've heard of gets time on the 1900 with Eagle unless they work there, I could be wrong.

Some cadets apparently have have interviews and a couple of cadets have been successful, though from reading a thread on the D & G section it would seem one of these guys hasn't made too many friends with his attitude.

I wouldn't imagine that too many cadets will be taken on as a proportion of the total intake since they will not have the requirements to hold an ATPL by the time it will be needed.

[27/09]

MM6473

The comments on the D & G thread are not an elaborate joke. Yes, this may be a rumour network but from what I have heard from people much closer to the action than I, and obviously you, the comments on that thread are pretty well on the nail.

If you believe differently I think you are the one who has been had.

As for the comments about the Thames incident, I was responding to an earlier post on this thread about this event therefore I consider a reply on this thread to be quite appropriate. We all make mistakes, some more public than others, however I do find reports such as the one quoted above hard to accept when you know it isn't true. Why not just acknowledge the incident and leave it at that. Don't try and window dress things to make it look better than it is. That just destroys any credibility you have when the truth comes out.

By the way my info isn't from someone who knew someone who knew someone......

[boquera]

Hi guys. iv just got a quick question (or maybe a few depending on how i type this). I recieve an email from CTC yesterday asking me if I would like to go through the reapplication as back in April I failed my initial interview but got asked to come back. Im wondering what is happening with CTC as I have heard rumours that the CTC Wings Cadets has changed from being an unsecured loan to a secured one which if true kinda screws me a lil!

Also if I do decide to go for it again-I didnt do to well on the group excercise apparantly so I would like to know what exactly they are looking for

Thanks for your help kids and good luck to everybody

Adios:ok:

[Alexz1988]

Hey, I would like to start off with a nice warm "hello" to everybody here that posted to this thread.

I`m rather new here on this forum, but since i pose an interest in CTC Wings cadet school i thought that a little inside help might do me good because i`m tired of readying everything on all the websites including the official ctc website.

It`s not that i don`t trust what`s written there but i`m just wondering how`s really the life there for a cadet...an opinion from somebody that`s there it`s nice aside from all the FAQ`s and videos i`ve been going through.

The thing is that i would like to start my training at the ctc facilities because i`m rather tired and sick of the crap that`s going around at the current academy i`m doing my training at.

I`ll be grateful to anyone who takes the time to answer a few of my question and share a little bit of the inside life there.;)

[99jolegg]

Im wondering what is happening with CTC as I have heard rumours that the CTC Wings Cadets has changed from being an unsecured loan to a secured one which if true kinda screws me a lil!

Yes, the traditional HSBC unsecured loan has stopped.

I don't know whether CTC have any other suggestions other than a visit of the highstreet banks...if there is something substantial they have arranged, I haven't read of it here.

[Shakuri]

I must admit it's a pain to me that HSBC have stopped the loans.

I have my phase 3 re-assesment in January, however now I am unsure whether to go or not. I know that if I don't get an unsecured loan I cannot do it.

If I did continue selection would i be able to defer entry or anything?

[EvelcyclopS]

januray?

you have three months to go down every little alleyway into finding out how to get that money by hook or by crook, i'm almost SURE its possible somehow...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Wannabe Zombie Army.

Despite the 19ft high flashing neon signs saying CRISIS! their quest to get into debt will never die.

I'm almost at the stage where despair gives way to laughter.


WWW

[jb5000]

I got to that stage a while back!

At least it's sunny in Nigeria............

[Aerospace101]

From the front page of CTC website:

All our graduates are usually offered the opportunity of full time employment with our partner airlines


...hmmmmmmm

advertising standards?

[Locarno]

Aerospace101 what exactly do you mean by that?


As for the loan - well yeah, HSBC stopping the funding is certainly a huge problem and it takes a lot away from what is so good about CTC in the first place.

Don't let it stop you from applying, that would just be crazy. Remember, you're paying them so if you do pass, you can defer it for ages!

And the loan? I know some guys on CTC now that are either self sunded or couldn't get a loan from HSBC for one reason or the other....And as far as I can tell, getting a secured loan all comes down to owning a house.

So, if you want to be a pilot, you've got to own a house, and use that as collateral for the bank. Don't have a house? Beg your mum/dad/aunt/uncle/granma/grandad/neighbour/friend to guarentee your loan with their house. I mean, no pressure - if you fail then everything they've worked for all their life to get their house mortgage free is gone.

On the other hand, if you don't fail - you're mint.


Anyways, CTC haven't released anything official about what, if anything, they're going to do about the HSBC funding problem. You never know, they might have something stashed up their sleeve and it may just be worth while waiting for that little extra month or two to see if anything is offered.
If not, it's time to start being extra nice to those parents!

[Aerospace101]

Hi Locarno,

My point is it should read: ( if 100% transparent & true)

"SOME of our graduates MAYBE offered the opportunity of full time employment with our partner airlines"

I think that paints the real picture?

[nhalliwell921]

Appologies if this is a little off topic for a sec but does anyone know what CTC's policy is on re-applications? In 2004 when I was still at Uni I applied for the CTC/McAlpine scheme but failed after the first assessment day (on the group exercise, past on the PAT's). Its been over 4 years now and I thought I may be in with a shot at re-applying as the scheme has changed a bit and no longer has involvement from Mcalpine, but I checked on the website and they still have my failed application on file. Does this mean if you fail at any point you can never reply, even if you have more life and professional experience than when you failed previously?

Nick

[mrfilbert]

As I understand it, if you fail and are not specifically invited to reapply in the future, then you can't reapply. But you're right, the scheme has changed since the McAlpine days and I'm sure you were a very different candidate in 2004.

Why not ring them and ask? No sense waiting on here for further speculation on the matter when you could very easily find out the answer straight from the horse's mouth by picking up the phone.

[99jolegg]

I thought 2 years was a minimum for re-applications if you don't already get invited back. Best to ring and check though.

[ctctim]

random question........ is there sunglasses you not allowed to wear at ctc for any reasons, is their some they reccomend you to wear? just bout to buy some sweet sunglasses but then thought id check here in case you not allowed certain types etcetcetc?


cheeeeers

[dunelmitepilot]

ctctim, whilst I doubt CTC actually specify any particular sunglasses you can/cannot wear, you may find this link appropriate for the answer to your question:

Guidance on using sunglasses | Medical | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=9244)

Incidentally, I recently bought a pair of aviators for flying. Only after though did I discover this ariticle which stated the type I'd bought were not actually recommended! I hope it aids you in your choice.

dunelmitepilot

[ctctim]

cool cheers bro, helps a heap, are you aware if those uk caa guidelines any or much different from the NZ ones? haha was just checking cos the ones i want aint aviators haha and they seem to be the only ones people wear from what i see, but of course i havnt seen much :}

[dunelmitepilot]

I would assume that there is probably very little difference in the recommendations for sunglasses between the UK JAA and NZ. I think the reason why aviators are so popular is that, due to the lens size, they do a good job in blocking out any oblique sunlight. When I wear mine, I won't say I am trying to make a fashion statement-but I am simply protecting my eyes!

Good luck in deciding on a pair.

dunelmitepilot

[morbz]

"Anyways, CTC haven't released anything official about what, if anything, they're going to do about the HSBC funding problem. You never know, they might have something stashed up their sleeve and it may just be worth while waiting for that little extra month or two to see if anything is offered.
If not, it's time to start being extra nice to those parents!"

CTC have said they are in talks with other banks, but how long these talks will last is another matter. I personally think that if you get an unsecured loan to a certain degree its worse than getting a mortgage or a secured loan. Why?

Well, with the unsecured loan yes you can declare bankruptsy, but on the other hand the repayments come quick and you cant really delay them all that much, plus interest is higher and the repayment amounts per month will be too.

With a mortgage, yer you pay back loads but you can spread it over a long period, monthly repayments will be much lower and most mortgages are flexible- ie one year you can pay back very little and yet if you get a decent job the next year you can pay back as much as you want.

I personally think the bank situation with CTC isnt that much of a bummer- providing your parents are supportive etc.

[Locarno]

Morbz - I disaggree. if it wasn't for the unsecured loan, I'd never be able to a pilot. I'd either have to chose a different career or join the military - I genuinely could not see any other way forward.

Why?

I was 18 years old, no way I could have any equity on a property already, and no way I could get and sustain a mortgage while I was in CTC.

True, I could have waited a few years, but I'm much happier with my current arrangement.

Also, remember the bond is with Airline placement services inc, not with HSBC, so theres nothing to say you can't re-loan, mortgage, whatever with a different bank.



On Sunglasses - Any sunglasses are fine, as long as their not polarized. Not that many people go for the old aviators anymore, simply because they're to chiche'd. I personally have some sleek Oakleys that more than do the job.




And on CTC MAY offer employment. No one thats graduated CTC has ever failed to gain employment until recently where Ezy cadets haven't been employed after the 6 month line training. Although only 2 cadets have ever been in the holding pool for longer than 6 months. - I'd say CTC is a good bet.

[clear prop!!!]

Sunglases!!!:ugh::ugh:

If that is honestly all you guys have got to concern yourselves with in the current employment climate...perhaps its time to take the rose tinted ones off!!!

CTC... "there is none so blind as those who will not see"

Take the glasses off for a while my friends!

[Bambe]

CTC... "there is none so blind as those who will not see"

Take the glasses off for a while my friends!

Brilliant :ok:

[Kerosine]

Sunglases!!!:ugh::ugh:

If that is honestly all you guys have got to concern yourselves with in the current employment climate...perhaps its time to take the rose tinted ones off!!!

Have you nothing better to do? What's the problem with asking a question about sunglasses? Jesus. :ugh::rolleyes:

[ctctim]

haha always dramas on this thread :}

[Kerosine]

Sometimes the frustration with all the pettiness just overflows ;)

Don't know why I come here anymore, just serves to wind me up :bored:

[mrfilbert]

I think i know why you still come on here Kerosine. You come on here because you have either just started or are just about to start on the CTC Wings programme. You've found pprune hugely helpful during the selection process. You perhaps want to give something back by offering some advice to those who are following in your footsteps. You certainly want to read other peoples thoughts about the course you're embarking on, and your future prospects. In other words you want this thread to remain the useful resource it has been for the past couple of years, full of balanced opinion and helpful hints.

Yet equally, you spend large amounts of time desperately searching these forums for a glimmer of hope, for positive posts from people in the know, a hint of light at the end of the tunnel that suggests that by November 2010 airlines will be hiring again, a suggestion that you won't be waiting in a hold pool getting slowly poorer, struggling to pay off your debt, and getting less and less current. You're finding your moods influenced by the ratio of negative posts (a la WWW) to positive posts (a la Captain Spam Can). You know in your heart that no-one can predict what the situation will be in two years time, yet you can't help but feel WWW and his comrades are the realists.

Am I in the right ball-park? Cos I'm a few months behind you, and that's why I'm here.

I genuinely don't know what to believe about how long the recession will last but I'm going to hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and in the mean time I'm going to ensure I make the most of what I'm sure will prove to be two of the best years of my life. Of all the integrated FTOs, I believe that CTC work the hardest to find their cadets airline employment at the end of their training, and there's no doubt in my mind that one day, whether I have to wait a year, two years, five years or more, I will get that job that I've dreamt of all my life.

(Yes, ok ok, you can put the violins away now!)

[student88]

All you can do is prepare for the worst and live each day as it comes.

Thats it. Ta daaaa! Thank you, I'm here all night. Try the Veal.

[bonalste]

Due to the likes of WWW, this thread has gone from being one which assists upcoming CTC applicants find information about the different phases into a thread about the airline industry and prospects of low-hour employment. Why?

As far as I can see this thread isn't about the current recruitment climate - it is about CTC Wings. If you wish to discuss the climate you should create a separate thread and lump all of the flying schools together. Where are your posts about Oxford graduates and FTE graduates not finding employment?

The fact that you turned a simple question about what sunglasses to wear into a statement about CTCs ability to recruit (even though this statement covers the entire spectrum of flight schools and has no pace in this thread) suggests to me that you have some issues. You're broken records. if you want to discuss the current climate, start a thread about it. You have completely ruined this thread and almost all posts from the last 20 pages should be scrapped as they pose no assistance to thos applying for the scheme.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

almost all posts from the last 20 pages should be scrapped as they pose no assistance to thos applying for the scheme.

There is a huge amount of information for applicants already in this thread. Granted you may have to dig to find it, but if you can't be bothered to spend a few hours researching then a professional flying course is not for you.

It is important for anyone thinking of making a huge personal and financial commitment, which is what anyone considering going to NZ is doing, to understand the reality of what is happening at places like easyjet and Monarch at the moment. You complain of too much negativity - well things are pretty dire out there right now, and I think it is worth being informed of these things if you are interested in flying as a career, wherever you choose to get your licence.

If having considered all this someone still wants to commit the money and go do the course then they have made a decision knowing all the facts and good luck to them. But I think the recent discussions on previous pages are very relevant to anyone reading this thread who is considering the CTC course.

[morbz]

Couldnt agree more!

I passed my CTC Wings selection process and never once looked on these forums for information. Im not saying the information is wrong or poor, I just felt that if I did look on here it would make me think negativly about CTC and the small chance of getting through etc, not to mention the tonnes of phony or pessemistic posts.

Topics always go off topic in internet forums, PPRUNE isnt the only forum to experience this, but it is one of the most pessemistic places on the net, full of moaners, people who argue over nothing to sound clever and just generally full of people with chips on their shoulders'. Yes there are people that need to open their eyes to the real world and the harsh reality, but those that 'bite' and moan just go about getting the message across in totally the wrong way.

At the end of all this, every one or nearly everyone reading these forums shares a huge interest in aviation with perhaps the majority dreaming of flying for a living, therefore I think we should all lighten up a bit, be a little optimistic sometimes and just chill out. I dont mean don't write information that will get enthusiasts down, but dont constantly moan about everything- especially the climate, that just makes things worse in my opinion.

Back to CTC Wings, the scheme in my eyes is fantastic regardless of the credit crunch, the wings course turns dreams into reality and offers at LEAST an amazing 2 years of training. As its been said before, CTC is a great deal better than many flying schools, so it shouldnt be slated every five minutes with reference to the credit crunch and Easyjet rejecting pilots.

Lighten up, chill out and enjoy a balanced discussion without the need to be pedantic and depressing. Everyone has a freedom to say what they like, but I jsut think people should go about the way they say things in a better way for the sake of everyone- especially the newbees with ambitions who read these forums!

:ok:

Is anyone else waiting to leave for New Zealand?

[SA242]

Its always easy to be over excited and overconfident before going out to NZ. Its when you finish the training that the reality of the situation becomes clear. I agree with BitMoreRightRudder. The information is in the past 20 pages is not rubbish and is certainly relevant. You are not paying 60K plus living expenses for a flying holiday. You will need to pay that debt back. That is not negativity nor is it pessimistic. It is reality. Easy for someone who has not even been into CTC as of yet or done any training at all to just brush off the warnings here but they are not incorrect warnings. Its not getting into or through the CTC course that is the problem. Its managing the bottom line at the end. Paying back the loan.

Now that's not to say that it should put you off the course. I enjoyed the entire training I received from CTC and it was well structured and the standards were very high. As with any flight school they have their problems and in the current climate CTC have their work cut out as do all airlines and aviation sectors. The point being made by people in the know is not 'Dont do the course'. It is to rethink doing the course right now. When the industry is on an up CTC is a very effective company at training large amounts of well trained pilots and placing them with big airlines. In the present climate with no recruitment the numbers back up and that can have effects on placement not only now but for a year or two down the line. CTC are doing a hell of a lot to get us work but its just the nature of the game. Something WELL worth considering before saying sod it I'll just throw 60K at this because it sounds fun and I quite like the idea of buzzing around NZ. But what the hell do people who have been through it or people who are already flying in airlines know...?!!

[EvelcyclopS]

Its not getting into or through the CTC course that is the problem.

speak for yourself :\

[bonalste]

My point isn't that the financial situation isn't relevant to CTC applicants but that it is relevant to ALL FTO applicants. The fact that the place on this board that this is covered in more than enough depth, several times and with a huge degree of copy/paste, or so it would seem, is on this thread. To me, this biases negative thoughts towards CTC more than to other FTOs. The fact of the matter is that if you have concerns about the financial and recruitment climate these should be expressed in a thread of it's own right. By all means mention it in this thread but you've mentioned it, beaten it, chopped it up and eaten it in a stew. This is no longer the thread for it and it is certainly not the thread for 20 pages of it.

CTC is an excellent FTO. Unfortunately the impression that people will get from this thread isn't to not train, it's to not train with CTC because they can't place their cadets. I find this inappropriate and much of what has been stated is fundamentally based on heresay or opinion, such as people suggesting that CTC would not be returning the easy cadets to the pool earlier in the thread. The last 20 pages may be relevant to a potential cadet but that's 20 pages saying exactly the same thing. The thread is only useful for the first 110 pages, the rest would need substantial effort to pull anything worthwhile from.

What I am saying is, people know about the credit issues, it has been stated, mostly on this thread (which I dislike for aforementioned reasons), plenty of times. it doesn't need to be brought up like the grease megamix at every opportunity. It is not helping anybody. If people wish to invest their money in the scheme after having already read 20 pages of this, I would put money that an extra post re-stating the same droll again will not provide meaningful assistance.

[Madhouserjd]

Veering away from all negative posts, could I pose a question?

I will shortly be coming up on the end of my 6 months and will be able to re-apply for stage 3 of the scheme. I have relitively little money and no assets to speak of so getting a secured loan is impossible. Getting money from parents or any other source is also out.

Im toying with the idea of reapplying despite having no funds and ask CTC to put me on thier records (should I pass) until such time as I can provide the full amount or some of it or until the loan again becomes available.

Firstly does anybody know if CTC has a position on defered entry if an applicant completes selection but is unable to attain finance?

My second option would be not to reapply and defer my re-application indefinately and apply to NATS as an ATCO, and wait a year or two until finance and the economy settle. This would provide me with valuable income and a well paid job to fall back on at the other end of the CTC course should I find myself swimming in that o so icy water.

My main issue with this is that I want to push my advantage having completed stage 2 first time and not be ticked off as a person who will not reapply and when I do reapply have to start from the beginning again.

Does CTC ask you to re-apply from the very beginning if you leave your re-application for two or more years? or do you continue from where you left off, or are you struck from the list?

Any words of wisdom appreciated!

[one post only!]

Madhouse, ring CTC and ask them. Talk through the options with them, they can tell you better than anyone else. I am sure they will see that you are just wanting to give yourself the best chance of getting qualified. They won't bite. I'm bet you are not the only one with these concerns at the moment. All your decisions look like they are geared towards you eventually getting a job as a pilot, it’s this kind of thing that CTC want to see at the end of the day!!
I hear that CTC are talking to other banks about funding so you might find there are options if you get through.

Bonalaste, I see what you are saying. However there is another thread running like you say, it has covered all FTO's and people training but moved on to general economic stuff!!
The thing is though that I think this information is relevant to this thread and should be included. It is applicable to CTC as a FTO and future cadets. I think it would be wrong to not have any reference to it in the thread at all.
I also disagree that it makes CTC look worse than other FTO's. A lot of posters say now is a cr*p time to embark on training but if you are going to do it regardless CTC is probably one of the best places to train at. Maybe not as good an opportunity as it once was but still better than probably all others. When things do pick up again then CTC will get back to the good times (i.e straight into RHS of a jet with no delay). Just might take a while.
Also they might discourage the ones who aren't that committed. Just fancy doing it as it might be a "cool" job etc etc. The ones who really really want it will carry on anyway. They are the ones who deserve the jobs!!!!

In fact those who really want it should post loads of doom and gloom, put people off starting and increase your chances of getting a job when it all picks up!!! :E In fact maybe that’s it, maybe the economy is in great shape but a few clever cadets have got together with some spin doctors and...............................................!!

[jaimz1982]

One post only!

That's a great idea!

I'm going out to New Zealand on CP 69!

Listen up newbies / wannabes (me included) no jobs for 5 years, don't train it's a waste of money! Don't forget losing the medical, huge risk, may not get a job! Think of everything negative you can so you don't start training!

ps, if you can pass this message on to the boys at Cabair, Oxford and FTE, that would be greatly appreciated!!

Brilliant!! That should put me in pole position, (ahem not!)

[99jolegg]

Anyone on CP70?

[ctctim]

im a kiwi on a course starting in december, what course be that?

[EvelcyclopS]

Bonsalte is 95.1% correct.

He misses out on the other 4.9% due to my scientific mind not wanting him a whole 100%, as it would be unreliable, yet seeing as the defiecit is less than 5%, the Pvalue < P= 0.005 which makes any incorrect notions from bonsalte insignifictant.

Good post bonsalte

[ctctim]

sweeet cheers

[clear prop!!!]

Well I’m sorry if my disbelief at the sunglasses diversion has caused upset, but I could not believe the similarity to a group of girl guides about to embark on their first camp, worried about what coloured bras to pack whilst a hurricaine headed for their tents!!

Guys …an girls, it is bloody tough out here right now. ----Consider long and hard what you are getting in to.

CTC is a great training provider… that is in no way in dispute.

I’ve known/ trained a number of good/great pilots who have failed the CTC selection process, so I have no doubt that they genuinely take the best, and that the selection process is not the sham of other FTO’s ..so very well done those who have got through.

What is of concern is, that right now is that they cannot deliver the levels of employment promised by the end of your course.

PLEASE.. ask some pointed questions before getting yourselves into more debt.

I sit in a ‘fairly’ safe and very hard fought for left hand TP seat, won at a time when employment was at a peak. Believe me, the tails of woe from those I meet every day right now, with thousands of hours, should not be underestimated.

I have to confess that WWW pissed me off …more than a little …at the beginning of this crisis, but, I have to admit he was’ just ‘ a bit right!

Please, take off the rose coloured glasses and think long and hard about what you commit yourself to, for at least the next year.

There is no doubt that some CTC students will see full employment at the end of their course, but a growing number will sadly not.

To those committed, your training will be some of the best times of your life, and, without doubt, CTC will do their best on your behalf

Good luck to you all.

[Gar]

I see someone is in a similar boat as myself regarding going to reassessment. To let you know my theory: I have booked my reassessment with the hope of passing, obviously. The funding bridge can be crossed if I make it that far.

Now, regarding my reassessment... It's at Dibden, only phase 3 so need to be there for about 11am. Just wondering if anyone knows how much a taxi from Bournemouth Airport to Dibden is going to skin me? I think I am going to risk it and fly in and out on the day of my assessment :\ Lets hope Ryanair are feeling punctual that day :ooh:

[bjkeates]

A lot, frankly. I remember Christchurch Station - Bournemouth Airport costing about 11 quid and that's only 4 miles, and was nearly 3 years ago. Bournemouth Airport to Dibden is nearly 28 miles. Taxis aren't cheap down there. If you've got to make a return journey you might be better off hiring a car for the day.

[99jolegg]

Bournemouth Station to Bournemouth Airport cost me about £14-£15 each way, earlier this year.

[Ronnie1982]

Can anyone tell me who the insurers recommended by CTC are please?

[bonalste]

ctctim, you'll be on CP69. CP68 are out here November 23rd, or there and thereabouts.

Gar, the taxi from Bournemouth to Dibden will cost around £30.

Ronnie, the insurers that CTC tell you about (they state sooo many times that they are not recommending - FSA rules or something) is Paul Jones Insurance Services Limited, PJIS. They are expensive, however, and I have heard of people getting significantly cheaper deals. However, this may be offset by the fact that, were something to go wrong, you are dealing with a company that is totally familiar with the scheme, making claims far simpler and more likely to be successful. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

[Polorutz]

ctctim will neither be CP68 nor 69, kiwi cadets train separately from Euro cadets and have their own groups, ctctim you'll probably be in NZ11, you'll do your PPL exams with CP69 or 68 but if they're not arriving in december you might end up doing them just with the other kiwis in your group (if there are any others) and after that you'll branch into completely different training paths.

[Gar]

£30 each way in a taxi?! Ouch! Let's see if Ryanair try and flog me car hire when I book my flights...

[jaimz1982]

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to see if there were any guys currently out in New Zealand / in the middle / end of training out there? O back in UK nearing the end, infact anyone on ICP?

I've got some questions about the scheme that I wanted to ask someone who's on it, can anyone help before I come out? I'm due out on CP69 (awesome course number) and wanted to get the questions / opinons before I left.

If anyone can help, it would be massively appreciated. Feel free to PM me!

Thanks,

Jim

[Miss_Cassutt]

Hey Guys,

I just got the news that I passed!!! I will be part of CP 73. woooh I can't wait to get started.

However, I would love to hear from any cadets who have managed to pass phase 4 after Sept. 08 .
I have just learned that since Sept due to the financial crisis HSBC has stopped the unsecured loan and I really don't have a clue on how I am going to get that! It would be great to hear from you and to get any advice!

Thanks.

[99jolegg]

CTC should give you some info on it but until then, yes, HSBC have stopped the professional studies loan so anything you get will be secured from another high street bank or from your own funds...

CTC are looking for another "partnership" but we can assume that it's looking a little unlikely for now.

[Kerosine]

So the clearways move has put you in high spirits!

Me too! :ok:

[Tim_G]

Hi ctctim. I am also a kiwi starting in December so I guess I will see you there in a few weeks. When was your selection? I know you weren't at mine.

[wirefly84]

Any one who wants advice of info from the selection phases post here

[ctctim]

oh sweet bro! my selection was in august i think, cant actually really remember ae, when was yours?

you live in hamilton or staying somewhere?

[jaimz1982]

Is there anyone currently on the CTC ICP scheme? Anyone at all??

Jim

[mrfilbert]

It's good to see a couple of current wings cadets on here. Would either of you (chelce or kerosine), or anyone else who's involved with CTC, be able to shed some light on what the latest is with people who are finishing the course at the moment?

The last I heard was that Easyjet & Monarch had taken some cadets on for their TR/line training period and then dropped them back into the pool. Since then, I've heard not a squeak. Do these people account for their entire course and, if not, what's happened to the others?

I presume another course must have graduated since? What's happened to these graduates? Have any of them got jobs? If not, when things pick up, will the partner airlines take these people before those who graduate after them?

And what, if anything, are CTC going to do to help those who may not get jobs for two years remain current and employable?

Finally, are the partner airlines still taking graduates on for their initial six months and, if so, is this all of them or just a few?

I've got through the selection process, I've got my medical, and I've got my finance sorted. I'm meant to be flying to New Zealand in the spring. I'm really keen to do this and I'm at just the right point in my life to train. I certainly don't want to turn my place down considering what I've been through to get it, but I am truly terrified that I will come out in late 2010/early 2011 and will not only fail to get a job then (I'm not naive - this seems almost inevitable) but will fail to get a job EVER because my skills will rust to the point that I"m unable to pass a sim assessment.

And all I've got to base this decision on (which is probably the hardest I've ever had to make) is speculation about when things will improve and CTC's (fairly meaningless) statistic of a 100% employment rate. Put it this way: if I knew that I'd have to wait 2 years after graduating to get a flying job, I'd still do my training now. But if it's likely that such a job won't ever materialise then I won't. It seems that what CTC and their partner airlines are doing for their unemployed cadets has the potential to make a difference between these two scenarios. So what are they doing? Does anyone know?

[DME Dave]

mrfilbert, the current situation is this. The cadets with EJ and Monarch are coming to the end of their line training period, my friend has 3 line flights left with EJ. I happen to know that BALPA and CTC are doing everything they can to help these cadets with their situation.

Cadets have graduated since (I am one of them) and are currently in CTC's famed hold pool. As far as jobs go EJ have requested people onto the 737 in Jan, Feb and March. Cadets get employed on a CP by CP basis, i.e. CP1 has priority over CP2 has priority over CP3.

As far as currency is concerned CTC have given cadets refresher Sims to keep their skills current. It is in their interest as what good is a whole bunch of cadets with lapsed licences to them.

The FACT is that the airline industry is cyclical, it has peaks and troughs, always has and always will. If I were you I would go full throttle into your training because I guarantee that by the time you finish the industry will have picked up and once more fallen off and picked up and fallen off etc. etc. etc. The airlines are going to start finding it easier since the oil price has dropped so significantly and passenger yields are still high.

I appreciate how hard the decision is to make but trust me, I know from experience that the training will be the best thing you ever do.

[99jolegg]

DME Dave,

You might regret saying that...you wait until the PPRuNe economic army get here :E

Nice to hear from someone in the know, though. Good luck with it :ok:

[mrfilbert]

DME Dave, that is EXACTLY the kind of post I was hoping for. Thank you very much indeed, and the best of luck to you.

[Tim_G]

ctctim, my selection was in October and I was going to be starting in April but they rang up and asked if I wanted to start in December, so I couldn't see why not. I live in Hamilton so I will just be staying at home. It's a lot cheaper than anywhere else! Are you staying at clearways?

[ctctim]

yeah i was starting in feb but tthey changed it so was so happy, nah clearways full was gutted bout that but just at knox street so it allgee! you done much flying before?

[RB84]

Hi am new on this thread i would like to say thank you for all the information and help given it is greatly appriciated. Next december i will be having my phase 2 tests are they going to be similar as described in the first few pages as sometimes i get a bit worried on what they might ask!! Thank you all for all your help in advance and hope to meet some of ya guys :}

[Tim_G]

I haven't done that much flying before (just enough to know that it's what I want to do). I have been in one of CTC's Robin 2160's which was really fun. I hear that it is better to have not much experience because they want to train you their way. How about you?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If I were you I would go full throttle into your training because I guarantee that by the time you finish the industry will have picked up and once more fallen off and picked up and fallen off etc.


You really advise this?

You really think that 14 months from now the industry will have 'picked up'?


I only expect 2009 to bring net contraction in the airline business. Quite severe and sharp contraction in the G8 countries and all of the EU (JAA license holders this means you). Clearing up the aftermath will take a couple of years starting in 2010 even if growth returns strongly that year. Which it certainly will not.

WWW

[ctctim]

yeah bro im the same, real looking forward to it should be real sweet!

[DME Dave]

WWW, (The fish who took the bait)

Firstly it will be 24 months from now that he finishes the training, and secondly yes I do believe the employment market will have 'picked up' in this time when compared to the current climate.

I personally am not in the business of discouraging others from following their ambitions, and even ambitions mixed with a harsh reality will still be achieved providing an individual is sensible. And before you say it, yes I do believe that starting your training in the very near future is sensible.

I will not be provoked into some petty argument, I'm not qualified to give financial and ecomomic advice (and I wasn't) and niether are you. This is a thread of constructive sharing and solution finding. A negative attitude will get somebody nowhere, yes there are generally always negatives and they must be considered but it's the attitude of what can I do to overcome this, that will find a person in good stead.

That is all I'm going to say on the matter because that's all that needs to said. Have a nice day ;)

[Melnaboo]

Hello everyone.

I am also waiting to make my reapplication for the team-work exercise of the stage 3.

I am Spanish, and since I failed my application because my English level I came to work and live to UK for myself to improve it before next reapplication.

Now, when the 6 months for the reapplication are finished, the unsecured loans are not able any more and for me this was the unique way to found the course.

I was wondering if someone pass all the selection process and CTC Wings give him a contract or something, with an explanation of the cadet program itself in it and so on, may be possible to get this loan if the cadet goes to the HSBC or another bank by himself and shows this contract to the bank, to prove that he may be get a job after finish the course?

Good flights.

[99jolegg]

No you can't. The HSBC professional studies loan has stopped for now. Any loan you get will most probably be secured and won't be different to your average loan.

Best to check with CTC though.

[Melnaboo]

Thank you for the answer.

I've already talk with them and they answer that I can be ellegible only if I can afford the funding by myself.

This is really dissapointing and I have very litte more that I can do. The hopes are dying now and even I feel like still here in UK is pointless for me and the life here without that hope is becoming harder and harder everyday.

Actually, if I didn't leave my job and live in Spain now I would be able to get a loan there, but now it's too late.
I bet for this with all my strengh and that was too much hehe.

Well... good luck to all the people who can afford that £75k!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No Dave. What needs to be said is that I believe CTC have over 150 cadets either paddling in the pool or under training for whom the prospect of an airline job in 2009 is a remote one. I know of one who was recently let go by a UK airline who is applying to Boots the chemist this week for a job stacking shelves. He plans to use bankruptcy (baring a miracle) to release himself from the £90k of debt he now cannot hope to manage.

Being realistic about a negative situation is not being negative oneself. Its being realistic.

You have to hope that things are going to pick up within two years as you are already in the pool. However there isn't a shed of evidence to support that hope.

It may be that some airlines actually want to take low houred cadets willing to sign contracts on very low net pay. IF they can find a way to encourage highly paid SFO's to leave and replace them with cadets on a new recession-era cadet pay scale then there may be some reasonable job opportunities for those with 200hrs. We shall have to see.

Bottom line, only a tiny fraction of Wannabes ever read these pages and only a small minority ever pay any heed to my opinion. The schools are full still and I can't imagine a bleaker more off-putting picture than right now so until the oil actually runs out...

WWW

[Mooney12]

DME Dave,

I'm not qualified to give financial and ecomomic advice

But that's exactly what your doing. Giving career advice based on your economic prediction.

If I were you I would go full throttle into your training because I guarantee that by the time you finish the industry will have picked up

mrfilbert,

That may have been what you wanted to hear but I wouldn't base your career decision based on the views of a cadet.

However you do seem more realisitic than most wannabees and you state that you would be happy to wait 2 years to get a job after training.

Good luck :)

[RB84]

Hi there!! Anybody having his selection phase 2/3 next december (16). Cya there :ok:

Bdw this thread is a classic a very well done to all of you out there

[rik2204]

Hi I'll be there on the 16 of dec! Southampton right?

[mrfilbert]

I don't think DME Dave is trying to do any more than provide his view as one cadet who's in the system, as a couple of other people have via PM. I'm not going to make any decisions based on what any one person says, but I am appreciative of everyone's input - all of you are helping to remove the fog of secrecy that hangs over flight training, and to bridge the gap between FTO advertising and my worst fears of eternal unemployment, poverty, depression and hunger!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

my worst fears of eternal unemployment, poverty, depression and hunger!

HOLD THAT THOUGHT! ;) :ok: :)


WWW

[RB84]

Hi there again i have got a question 2 all of you out there, that i have been thinking of for a very long time and havent found any answers yet!!!!! Listen if lets say i am a partner air line with CTC and would like say X no of pilots this year to join my fleet.

Do you think i will be choosing any of the CTC wings cadets??? I wouldn't as i would have to pay them back in an agreed time no......
NO OFFENCE TO ANY OF THE CADETS AS I MYSELF WILL BE APPLYING FOR THE CADETS SCHEME BUT I'M NOT SURE WHICH TO CHOOSE WETHER THE SELF SPONSORED OR THE CADETS SCHEME.

On the other hand there are the ICP the self sponsored group that are paying for their course and are not expecting to have any of their money returned back {in a way just their job} so for any of the partner airline it will not be worth it to have any of the cadets as i have to give them the money supplied for their bond

Am i correct or did i miss something on the way Thank you to all ya your ideas are much appriciated.:ok:

One last thing with regards to the 4 essays that will be give, what kind of subjects do they specify that you talk about and how many words thank you once again!!!

[kwb911]

RB84

The wage for a cadet is lower than for a DEP so the cost is not any more. Check easy jet web site DEP vs Cadet.

The way I look at it is that your bond and basic training fee pays CTC for your training. The airline pays for the type rating but they get a cheap pilot for 6 months as they do not pay you a salary. If they are happy with you after your line training a finders fee is paid to CTC which gives them their profit and pays for the £1000 per month you was paid by CTC during line training. The airline then pays you a reduced salary until you bond is paid off.

If you go to BA you enter on the DEP salary but pay the bond back from your own money. There is a tax benefit for the Easyjet method of cadet salary and bond payment which helps a little. I believe the costs are similar on both schemes but just broken down in a different way.

If you go the ICP route you will not get the AQC course and the possibility to go onto airline training (When times are good and the ATP scheme is open you could apply to this and as a CTC trainee I guess you would be in a good position) So far the AQC and advanced training has been guaranteed for all cadets passing the intermediate training CPL/IR.

Bottom line is that the training with CTC is very good, cadets get CPL/IR AQC and to date 100% placement with an airline. I believe for what you are paying the scheme gives you much more than other integrated FTO's.

Not getting into the modular vs integrated discussion, as this is up to the individual to work out what is best in the current climate.

[nhalliwell921]

Off topic but does anyone have a mailing address for CTC Wings? I have a letter I need to post to them but there is nothing on the website.

Cheers

[Aerospace101]

If you go to BA you enter on the DEP salary but pay the bond back from your own money.

can someone verify this? DEP and not SSP pay for ctc cadets!?

[RB84]

Hi thank you all for the fast reply i can now understand how it all works out. much appriciated is it possible please to forward me the site for british airways were it says about the cadet sponsorship scheme with CTC as from this link Ba is no longer doing any more of such schemes. Thank you once more for all your help.

Bdw another thing!! CTC has a number of partner airlines apart from BA and easyjet do the rest of the other airlines take in any cadets as very little is heard about them for ex monarch , thomas cook etc.... If so does anybody know the links as i would like to know if the bond as mentioned and explained earlyer applies the same to all the partners

Thanks alot!!!:}

[Streety]

British Airways is not a partner airline and never has been in the way that easyJet and Thomas Cook etc are. Neither is the CTC Wings scheme a BA Cadet program. Cadets may choose to apply to BA for entry as Self Sponsored Pilots (SSPs) at the end of training, subject to having acheived certain criteria throughout the course. It is not an airline placement in the same way as the easyJet one. Cadets are employed by BA from Day 1 of their induction, and paid as such on the SSP payscale. The training bond is retained by CTC/APL - in effect the cadet has paid for his/her own training much like if they had gone to OAA/FTE/Cabair etc.

You will not find any link to a BA cadet scheme on their website because there isn't one. Neither is there likely to be, certainly in the short to medium term.

[RB84]

Hi Streety thank you for your help
so once you get selected after phase 4 of ctc selection process, is it then that they tell you which partner airline you are going to be with or is it after the course that they tell you about this and they choose the airline you go with. how does this work??

http://www.ctcwings.co.nz/pdfs/news/CityJet_and_CTC_Launch_CityJet_Wings_26June2008.pdf

CTC Aviation Group plc - CTC Wings and Thomas Cook (http://www.ctcaviation.com/wings/tcook/)

easyJet.com - easyJet's Cadet Sponsorship Programme (http://www.easyjet.com/EN/Jobs/Pilot/pilotrecruitment_cadetsponsorshipscheme.html)

Here i got a couple of the partner airlines that show they are willing to accept cadets but who tells you with whome you go thanks alot peeps!!!

[kwb911]

Not sure how to quote a post on this forum but wanted to clarify my mistake regarding DEP and SSP as mentioned a few posts above by djfingerscrossed.
I incorrectly mentioned DEP for the BA scheme but SSP was what I was describing. The part I was trying to describe is the higher wage with BA but the fact that the cadet does not receive any payment for the bond unlike the easy jet scheme therefore wages are similar. Although Easyjet is paying back £1000 per month towards the bond the salary is reduced to give a similar overall monthly sum.

As mentioned BA is not a partner airline but some CTC cadets have gone to BA after applying and passing the selection process just the same as cadets/students from other FTO's. I did not mean to imply BA was a partner airline with CTC

[Streety]

The Openskies agreement (http://www.ctcaviation.com/pdf/OpenSkies_7Oct08.pdf) was "to provide aircrew training solutions". Nowhere in the press release announcing the deal were cadets mentioned as being part of the plan. The tone of the document on the CTC website seems to suggest more of a 'one-stop' selection and training arrangement along the lines of the Club328 agreement (http://www.ctcaviation.com/pdf/Club328_07.09.07.pdf) that was announced in Sep 07.

Whilst technically Openskies may be a 'partner' of CTC , I would suggest that to call them and by association BA a partner of the Wings Cadet Program is somewhat tenuous, if not inaccurate.

Good news about Eagle though for the NZ guys.

[wirefly84]

Is there anybody currently nearing the phase 4 stage of selection, who hasnt a clue how they are to fund this training programme now HSBC have withdrawn their professional studies loan. I am in the position to offer security ( a house) however there does not seem to be the framework with a secured loan from hsbc that is similar to the loans given before all the financial trouble.What i mean is 'remortgage' repayments need to be made immediatly as soon as the loan is taken out.So it is just a basic homeowner loan with no special terms being a CTC cadet. I thought if the loan was stopped it would just be the 'unsecured' side of it. Has anyone got any more info or recent dealings with banks? CTC say they are 'in talks' with other banks, anyone know any info with that? I basically need a bank to recognise CTCs training programme and offer better terms than the bog standard home owner loan! I definetly cannot start making repayments while i am commencing my training!Any info of general chat about this matter would be greatly appreciated

[EvelcyclopS]

just a thought mate, but you could try renting your house out to cover the mortgage.

Are you definately sure you can raise 80k off your house? just having a house doesnt necessarily mean you have security...

[mushingstall]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could confirm wether or not HSBC have passed on the recent set of BofE base rate cuts to CTC cadets with the professional studies loan?

I'm aware that the loan is affected by base rate changes but was given to understand that HSBC have a limit below which they will not go.

[cloud9dk]

just a thought, but it might be wise to take things one step at a time. dont even think about the finances until you have passed phase 4. that would be a waste of your time instead of concentrating on the simulator test.

wrt to the loan however, rates have come down, natwest are offering secured loans, 2.5 % above base rate though! hsbc will do a home owners loan, around the 5 % APR mark if you have enough equity.

speak with them after your test though, that would be my piece of advise

[kwb911]

Without looking at the agreement I believe the unsecured HSBC loan was 2.75% above base rate therefore the figures you mention above are similar.

[jaimz1982]

Mushingstall,

Hiya, yes the rates have come down in line with Bofe. I signed my loan docs last Friday (I'm one of the last to get the secured loan as I'm on ICP). My orignal rate in July was 7.7% and it's now about 5.2 I cannot rem exactly though. It actually made quite a difference for me.

I also advise you to do the assessment first then worry about money. I've heard a couple of guys having to get mortgages frm parents or loans for around the 95k mark. 20 k so they can pay it back straight away, then rest for the course.

Best of luck for stage 4!

Jim

[j.e.holmes]

Hi all,

Hopefully just a quick one - I have my phase 2 coming up in a couple of weeks and have been preparing for the Pilapts with the cockpitweb software. I would also like to practice with the Pilot-prep software from the site pilot-prep.co.uk just to cover everything but cannot seem to get onto the site anymore, even though it was ok a couple of weeks back.. does anyone have this software who wouldn't mind possibly sending or uploading for me? Hope that's not asking too much I just really want to give myself best chance!

Thanks in advance!

Anyone else got their phase 2 on Dec 9th?

James

[RB84]

How's everybody doing. I just wnat to ask a simple question to some of you out there.

Why did you choose CTC to train you become one of the best pilots. Why didnt you choose EFT or OAA they both are good FTEs so why CTC.

Lets get this straight I know CTC is one of the best schools but i just would like to have different perspective of how you all look at it!!!!:ok:

[jaimz1982]

Hi RB84

I just thought I would give you my reasons:

I chose CTC because after speaking to lots and lots and lots of people, the two FTOs that were constantly recommended were CTC and FTE. The people I asked ranged from very experienced pilots (20+ years flying) to recent graduates and modular guys from all the FTOs.

I looked and spoke about everything, where they train, how they train, what they fly, employment stats, how they treat you after you graduate etc.

All lead to CTC and FTE.

I then chose CTC because of their employment record. I even failed at the first attempt and then only just missed the Wings course. Then after 3 years of research where I gave up a 40% tax bracket payment job to go and work in the aviation world (why? to do more research and talk to Pilots, engineers etc) I got on the CTC ICP scheme and I ship out to NZ on the 2nd of Jan.

I don't want to start a debate on the best FTOs etc, but I simply went on the advice I was given. I probably went over the top on research, but my old job was as a market researcher so I already had it ingrained into me!

Hope it helps!

Jim

[99jolegg]

Finance and job prospects.

Well....that was the plan anyway :suspect:

[boquera]

hi y'all hust wondering if anybody knows how long any of the training providers keep your pass on record for (i.e. how long after you pass can you leave it till you start). I ask because i'm debating weather to go for my 2nd attempt down in Sarfamtan. Atm I can't pay for it you see and i'm still dreaming of a miracle!

cheers everyone

[nevilinio]

Just a quick question. Has anybody who is due to commence training AFTER 1st december 2008 asked CTC how the reduction in VAT from 17.5% to 15% is going to effect their course fees.

They recently (within the last year) increased their fees from £61,000 to£63,00 due to the increased cost of aviation fuel etc. Fuel prices have decreased dramatically, coupled with the drop in VAT should we not expect a drop in training fees?

Nev.

[jaimz1982]

Hi Nev,

Yeah I asked this question too, I'm on CP69, due out on 2nd of Jan, because my Invoice was issued in November it had the 17.5% Vat on it, however, I was told for the future invoices I will be charged 15%.

Not sure how that leaves me with the loan, HSBC may simply adjust as fit as I don't think they will just give me the extra saved money, or they might. I'm genunely not sure.

As for drop in fuel prices, well I wouldn't expect a significant drop, if one at all. That's how I'm basing this, think worst case scenario, if anything happens that is better, well it's a bonus!

Hope that helps,

Jim

[no sponsor]

Why don't you ask them to re-issue the invoice for November, and get a reduction? You are not receiving their product/services until Jan, so I cannot see why they would object.

[jaimz1982]

Yeah tried that, but literally the day I asked, the first instalment went out of my account! Think I asked on the 1st, then 24 hours later, I was considerably more in debt!

[PaulJ1957]

If the services (ie course) doesn't start until January and you didn't pay until December then there really should be no problem (Vat wise) with them issuing you a new invoice with the lower VAT rate. They will not be out of pocket at all (they collect the VAT from you and pass on to Customs) so this really shouldn't be a problem. Worth persuing ! (It gets more complicated if payment was made in November - but still worth asking the question again). Best of luck !:ok:

[Rj111]

How many cadets are CTC actually taking on at the minute?

There's a funny contradiction at play really as they obviously want to choose level-headed candidates. But i think you would have to be a bit of a risk taker to go through with the scheme at the particular moment in time. The final job opportunities are pretty barren and i'd imagine the hold pool must be ever increasing.

[RB84]

I dont fully agree in my opinion in 2 years time the industry will back to normal, its always like that!!!! on the other hand it depends how many cadets are in the holding pool waiting for a job

How many are there anyways??????? Does anybody have an estimate???

[PAJ]

Latest type rating courses have sucked up a few - think it's sitting around the 30 mark at the minute with perhaps another 10 or so to be added by the end of the month.

[Rj111]

I dont fully agree in my opinion in 2 years time the industry will back to normal.

I'm going for a more conservative 5 years myself. :(

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

CTC are sending this email out to people.

I'm thinking flexible means working for six months over then summer then back to burger flipping for the winter. Also many exciting opportunities to experience working in Khazakstan and other interesting parts of the world.



"I'd like to use this opportunity to unveil to you, a new concept that CTC is about to launch. Over the next couple of days you might well see adverts and hear speculation about a new flexible crewing initiative known as FlexiCrew.

We are responding to the request from industry to provide a flexible crewing concept that enables airlines to "flex" their crewing requirements more seasonally. When I say crew, I mean Pilots and Cabin Crew alike.

With an acute focus on cost control, there are a number of airlines that are looking to adopt flexible crewing options.

We will be inviting type rated pilots from all over the world to apply to FlexiCrew so that we can build a global database of pilots that can satisfy an airlines need wherever they might be and on any type. Chris Clarke and I have just completed a whistle stop tour of the Middle East and China and it is apparent there will be a genuine global challenge in the coming years to marry pilots with jobs.

Last year CTC trained almost 1400 pilots for 52 airlines, but the market for the supply of pilots and the demand for those pilots goes way beyond our current client list. Therefore, we are aiming to diversify into other emerging markets and expand our services for the supply of worldwide airline crewing.

Clearly as CTC Wings Pilots you have a natural avenue to the 11 Partner Airlines; however FlexiCrew will go way beyond that and offer the possibility of operating with other airlines. We would therefore, like to invite you to register on the database. As previously mentioned, it will be more usual to attract type rated pilots, but in the case of CTC Wings pilots, we would like you to register regardless of your stage of training, and update your status as you progress through.

In previous updates, I have mentioned the changing climate and the nature of the industry is such that innovation and cost effective solutions to the airlines from training organizations will be necessary. We want to be at the forefront of pilot supply solutions, but more specifically, we want to maximize your likelihood of placement.

FlexiCrew will not appeal to all airlines and it might not appeal to you; however you have nothing to lose by registering. The system will "go live" in the next few days and when it does, please feel free to register your details. As stated, this does not compete, undermine or change your position with regards to the Wings Partner airlines, but it does allow us to potentially offer you additional options should you wish to be involved.

The changing nature of the industry and the need for a solution is illustrated in Tim Cheales comments below on FlexiCrew:-

"CTC has always been a reliable source of quality pilots. Our marketplace is changing - the ability to have a seasonal supply of pilots is something only previously considered by the smaller operators. However, we all have to revisit our approach to resourcing and this could provide a very workable solution for more airlines as our industry evolves."
Captain Tim Cheal, Training Manager, Thomas Cook Airlines

To give you some idea of the activity levels at the moment, we are in discussions with airlines in the Middle East, Vietnam, China, most of Europe, Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Fiji on subjects ranging from supplying Training Captains, to Cadets and Cabin Crew. This means that updates like this might start coming at you thick and fast. I hope that you see this as exciting and innovative, and more importantly, I hope that it assures you that despite the economic down turn, we are on the case and providing the industry with solutions."

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As I was saying this week to the boss of Cabair before he checked in for his flight to Beijing.. i've been around the flying training industry a long time.

WWW

[biaeghh]

www,

You are my hero!!!

[clear prop!!!]

As I was saying this week to the boss of Cabair before he checked in for his flight to Beijing.. i've been around the flying training industry a long time.


And the 'boss' from Cabair was so overwhelmed and impressed, he said.......?

A...fancy doing some PPl training when EZY goes bust

or

B...I've got some euros here, should I cash them in now, or when you tell me to on PPRUNE?

[one post only!]

or C: Here's £150,000 to stop going onto PPrune and warning people about the current state of the market so that more people train with us and head straight onto the dole!!

I really really hope that in a years time you can all come back on here and mock WWW for getting it totally wrong but, god forbid, if he is correct he may have just saved some people a lot of money along the way.

WWW, take option C. No-one wants to listen anymore as they have all made their own minds up. Take the money and just leave everyone to get on with it!!!

P.S WWW, that post was just a tiny tiny bit cheesy and you were opening yourself up for a bit of flack there!

P.P.S I though you were a skipper, not a check in desk operative for some chinese outfit! Has anyone given you anything to carry for them..........? :E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I know it was cheesy - I have no problem inviting flak and it was a telephone conversation with the CEO so, clear prop!!, I think he is the 'boss'.

WWW

[BitMoreRightRudder]

the boss of Cabair before he checked in for his flight to Beijing

Fleeing the country, eh? :suspect:



One Post, you shouldn't be posting during home stby, I'm sure I've seen it in part A..........:zzz:

[wirefly84]

Hey Miss Cassut im on CP 73 too,u going around april yeah?whats your name i probably saw u at selection.Im battling to get the money as we speak, how bout starting a facebook group or something to find out who elese is in our group?have u recieved ur offer pack yet? still waiting on mine!:rolleyes:

[wirefly84]

Hey guys if any of you want to join ive created a facebook group to make contact with most early next year 'to be' cadets to have a general chat about anything. Ive called it
'ctc wings cp 72 - 74' so if your in any of the enclosed groups feel free to become a member! Thanx.:D

[Surly Bonds Broken]

Wirefly ... don't be mean, add those of us on CP71 as well :) !

[cc2180]

Im still trying to work out if the Flexicrew system is a good sign for the cadet/hold pool/company prospects or not.

Any insight?

With EZY not offering permament jobs to their graduates, and apparent unhappiness with the standard of them (which may be an excuse for the 6 month dumping), recruitment contract up for renewal next summer etc, whats happening with ctc at the moment?

Dunno what's rumour and what's truth. Still safe to start training with them?

[bjkeates]

apparent unhappiness with the standard of them (which may be an excuse for the 6 month dumping)

I can tell you now, quite categorically, that that is not the case.

[Sagey]

I think you are the confusing the standard of CTC Wings cadets and ATP cadets with those of the standard of ATP self funded type rating people (nothing to do with CTC). easy and ATP have apparently mutually parted company. There is lots about it in the easyJet holdpool thread on the Terms forum.

[Josephine24]

Hi there, I am going out on CP72 too!! Although, as the trend seems to be, if I can raise the bond!

[no sponsor]

The flexi system by CTC should make you think very hard about becoming an airline pilot. Sadly, it is another nail in long term prospects of good terms and conditions. It means that an airline will employ you for 6 months, or whenever their high peak season is, and give you an unpaid period of leave until the next peak season. Unless you can rotate with another airline whose high peak is exactly the opposite, in which case will probably require you to travel to another continent, subject to employment laws, you will be on a very poor annual salary - don't burn your bridges with Tescos when you leave the shelf-stacking job, since you'll need to go back there for the winter.

[Grass strip basher]

This Flexi scheme is a horrifying precendent.... I am surprised there has not been more said about it. :eek:

[PAJ]

It should be noted that FlexiCrew is not compulsary for cadets! CTC is still linked with the same partner airlines, however the industry is going to have to react to the downturn. Christmas at the moment is creating a very artificial situation as people are still spending, however once 2009 kicks in we will truly see how deep we are in and how far this recession will sink. People are still going to fly, but will not fly any where near as regularly. A peak/ trough situation exists for many carriers around the world so what FlexiCrew is designed to do is offer a solution that means that airlines don't have to have a load of pilots on their books who they cant fly often in the low season, but still have to pay. I agree that what we all want is for things to go back to how they were 2-3 years ago with plenty of opportunities out there, but the market is not the same anymore and will not recover for a couple of years at least. FlexiCrew might be what it takes to keep airlines taking on people at the moment - what that means for guys in the holdpool and those coming towards the end of training is an opportunity to get a type rating on the licence and to keep their hours ticking over. Fair enough you may be chopping and changin jobs every 6 months or so for a while, having to move away from family for months at a time, but on the upturn, you could find yourself with an unfrozen ATPL, a couple of thousand hours on type and a good way into a legend carrier as DEP, and the salary that comes with that. The alternative might be to sit around stacking shelves at Tesco on minimum wage, deferring the loan repayments and acruing interest and waiting for a carrier willing to commit to a full term contract. I would much rather do something full time with one of the partner airlines but with things as they are I am definitely interested to hear more personally. (But on a positive note, EZ have apparently commited to taking 22 new CTC guys early next year to get their line training)

[hoody_mcboob]

"Legend carrier"....where do i sign!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

But on a positive note, EZ have apparently commited to taking 22 new CTC guys early next year to get their line training

True, but they haven't committed to taking back the 22 guys they just let go. According to ezy Balpa reps, the guys who were let go will be offered this flexi-crew thing, at best. So what do you think is going to happen to the new batch of cadets going through the type rating courses at the moment after their 6 month free labour period is over?

CTC come out with this c**p and tell cadets that they hope they find it "exciting and innovative".

I'm sorry - bulls:mad:t

Who is going to find working as a 6 month contract pilot, most likely without pay if you go to ezy, exciting or innovative?

[PAJ]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is perfect by any means - after 6 months guys might be out of work again. But I can't help but feel that having say 700 TT with 450 hrs on type (or whatever you might get) is a better position to be in. I'm sure that the OAA/FTE/Cabair guys are not getting to add that to their cv's without paying airlines for the TR and line experience. It's hard to know what should be done. Bottom line is that airlines dont want to pay so much for flight crew, so either we let the industry absorb newbies in line with current crewing requirements against new routes and turnover or do something else like FlexiCrew to get that first job. But as you say, BALPA have come back and said those CTC guys let go by EZ will basically only be able to come back as FlexiCrew. Not ideal at all, but times seem to be getting more desperate each week, and flying is flying.

[bjkeates]

But I can't help but feel that having say 700 TT with 450 hrs on type (or whatever you might get) is a better position to be in.Believe me, it makes little difference. The ones that actually bother to reply to you - and in my experience that would be 5-10% - aren't interested.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I know times are hard PAJ, but that doesn't excuse CTC and particularly ezy collaborating to exploit cadets currently in the system. All this propoganda that CTC spew out really :mad:'s me off - if there are no jobs out there for the time being then they should just admit that and keep cadets informed.

Allowing ezy to specify temporary contracts with no pay when taking on cadets' is criminal behaviour. Either ezy takes on you guys with a 100% intention to offer permanent contracts or they take no-one at all. A fully qualified, graduated CTC cadet is an airline pilot, not an office temp who can be shoved around without thought or explanation.

I get a bit hot under the collar about this but it is pretty galling to see a good group of lads arrive into the crewroom at my base having followed the same route I took into airline flying, and then see them get screwed over simply because easyJet decide free pilots is a fancy cost cutting measure, and CTC stand around and roll out the "innovation" turd they love to bang on about.

Flexi-Crew?

Tell them to Flexi off.:hmm:

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I think the flexi crew thing will go when the recession ends....however long that will be. I remember after 9/11 a few airlines decided that they would lay crews off over winter and rehire them over summer. A good money saver for them until things started to pick up and the guys started to get permanent jobs elsewhere.

[Aerospace101]

atleast there are some airlines with backbone regarding recruitment/bonds etc such as flybe and BA. they wont touch 'flexipilots' with a bargepole.

i hope flexicrew is a failure. Either that or its gona be a failure for future wannabe generations.

to all those who say flexi is better than nothing - what ever happened to being able to Make a living as an airline pilot??

[wirefly84]

No problem ur all invited lol.:ok:

[bjkeates]

I actually think FlexiCrew will be here to stay. Suppose the industry picks up in a few years time and cadets start to be taken into airlines through the 'normal' CTC route - remember, that will only affect cadets. CTC are marketing FlexiCrew at type-rated pilots; in effect, it is will become another contractor like Parc or Rishworth, for whom there will always be a market. The recession will not be for ever and oil will not be down at $40/barrel for long (how long until the next massive speculation bubble when the economy picks up?) Airlines will always be looking to cut costs and look at routes such as this. If it offers cadets further options, so much the better.

I do hope this doesn't become the norm though and that despite what has happened with the cadets at EZY and MON this winter, that more partner airlines are not tempted to go down this FlexiCrew route and the traditional cadet avenues remain open as cadets have been assured. CTC can only do what the airlines want them to do, but it would be a worrying scenario, not least for those just starting out on the course.

PS. Wirefly - this isn't a text message forum, any chance you could write in standard English?

[Streety]

That's the trouble with the yoof of today, eh Keatsey?

[Bambe]

Working as a pilot only 6 months a year means plenty of time to do something else... I've met so many pilot who after 10-15 years are bored of flying and mainly enjoy the job for the income...

We'll be pilot for the spring and summer time, then we'll have another job for the rest of the year awaiting for the next season.. So that we'll never get bored.
Well that's my point of view.

If some of you are in CP71, let me know, would be cool to meet before the meet and great day.
By

[jb5000]

What job are you going to do in the winter that will cover £1,200+ loan repayments?

Christmas postman doesn't quite cut it.

[akindofmagic]

We'll be pilot for the spring and summer time, then we'll have another job for the rest of the year awaiting for the next season.. So that we'll never get bored.
Well that's my point of view.

Of all the ludicrous, pointless, idiotic posts I've ever read on this thread, this one takes the prize.

What an utterly ridiculous thing to say; I despair.

[sharpclassic]

Bambe,

Are you serious or are you so sh*t scared about this new deal that you're clinging to any kind of positive that you can find?

This deal is nothing but bad news. As has been said before, it is another step in bringing down the Ts & Cs of the industry, exploiting the large number of youg people who want to get into this career. At the rate it's going, Bambe, you may well HAVE to get a 2nd job to cover your loan, bills and, if you ever manage to get one, mortgage as the salary of a pilot will not be enough to cover these things.

People slate WWW for his views, but when will you guys WAKE UP and realise that CTC is no longer what it used to be. The airlines and CTC are taking advantage of the situation to cut costs and screw you guys over. There is NOTHING good about this deal whatsoever. Once the recesion is over, the FlexiCrew scheme will not go away. Why should airlines pay more for a comododity of which there are plenty of and plenty of who seem to be happy to be paid fu*k all for and some who even willing to pay the airline to do the job.

As for those of you like PAJ who reckon getting those 400 hours on a jet will suddenly open all doors to other airlines, time to think again. 400 hours on type is sod all. There are guys coming out of XL, Silverjet, Maxijet, Sterling etc etc etc who have 1'000s of hours. You think you're going to be in a position to compete with them?

However, it's not actually these 1'000s of hours guys you will have to worry about, it's the next batch of Pay to Fly, FlexiCrew or whatever scheme comes up next cadets that will be filling the slots you're hoping you would fall into. 400 hours on type? Now time for a job at XXX Airways? Sorry mate, XXX Airways is only taking FlexiCrews, keep looking old boy!

If this type of scheme is allowed to prosper, it will be the very cadets who are 'benefiting' from that will be the ones suffering.

[TFlexMax80]

I've seen some bone posts on this forum in my time, but:

We'll be pilot for the spring and summer time, then we'll have another job for the rest of the year awaiting for the next season.. So that we'll never get bored.

has to be some sort of record breaker for stupidity. Unless you're fortunate enough to be able to pop out of the end of the Wings training system debt free then I would suggest that Flexicrew is not exactly compatible with the bond repayment schedule. Flexi-HSBC, they ain't!

Bambe is right in one respect though. You'll certainly never get bored. You won't have time. You'll be working every hour in the day to pay back the loan against your name in some temp job. After all what decent employer, paying reasonable whack for well qualified people, is going to hand out a permanent contract to someone who is going to walk out on them every summer season to go and fly?

[bjkeates]

If I may add to the howls of derision aimed in Bambe's direction...

With an attitude like that, sir, you should question why you are embarking upon a course which will be a weight around your financial neck for the best part of a decade and whether you have the commitment to see it through.

When asked "why do you want to be a pilot", what was your response?

[Bambe]

Well I made quite a big mistake. I thought it was a temporary position still paid whilst grounded... Which is obviously not the case.
I thought we would have few months off with a basic salary and the opportunity to work somewhere else.

Knowing everything, this new scheme definitly sucks. My apologise.

Do you guys think all the CTC partners are going to hire pilot through this scheme or only EZY?

[jb5000]

If the scheme involved getting a decent basic salary to not turn up at all then I think Concorde training captains, Red Arrows pilots and Space Shuttle Commanders would have thrown in the towel and joined 'FlexiCrew'!

[Sciolistes]

This deal is nothing but bad news.
I don't know anything about this other than what is posted here, neither have I received such an email. Regardless, I think it is pretty impossible to say one way or the other based on the information I have available. The contracts will probably be as diverse as the airlines.

Do you guys think all the CTC partners are going to hire pilot through this scheme or only EZY?
I should think that CTC would like to develop links airlines across the globe, something that they have already put in practice with Jetstar. If you look at AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING (http://www.ctcwings.co.uk) I think there are signs of a few other possibilities in the pipeline too.

[one post only!]

While there are people in the system saying "flying is flying" and "at least it will get us 400/500 hours on type" the contracts will never be amazing. It doesn't make commercial sense for a company that is struggling now times are getting tough to pay anything other than the total minimum.

On graduation our standards are set fairly low already. £1000 a month for 6 months. Originally palatable because you KNEW there was a job at the end of it!!!
Now if you get offered a contract of say £2000 a month people will jump at it. After sitting in the hold pool for a year it will seem very attractive. The fact you have to rent abroad for 6 months and travel to and from the UK at your own expense doesn't matter as at least you are flying and getting hours!!

Maybe I am wrong and the package's will be outstanding, all expenses stuff but I am not going to hold my breath! Can't help but feel that this flexi scheme will not be wonderful but we shall have to wait and see!!!

What worries me is that the airlines will love it and Bambe I think all partner airlines (with one or two exceptions) will use the scheme. Why not? It provides cheap, flexible labour!! Perfect! They save money, CTC make money. Everyone is a winner!! Including the cadet who gets a few hundred hours :hmm:.

I guess CTC are only responding to the times but I think that once you start down on that slippery slope........! Who do you blame though? The airlines? CTC? The credit crunch? Global warming? The French?

I think in some shape or form this scheme will live on forever.

[doctorfox]

Everyone is a winner!!

...CTC-yes, Airlines-yes, New Cadets desperate for hours - yes probably.

....XL/Silverjet Captains with families and a Mortgage....NO
....Guys with 700hrs and 6 months experience ready to start paying off £1200 a month...NO

I can see why CTC would do this. It gets bums into right hand seats and helps clear there back log.

But not many airlines are ever going to take people on a permanent contract, if their rivals are getting cheap summer labour.

If you've got a mortgage or 60k loan, how will you ever pay it off? 4 months one summer, then the winter stacking shelves, then 6 months of the next summer in the far east or something, then a winter delivering post. There will just be no stable income, you will be moving all over and you will never get a permanent contract because no one will be offering you one. And if you turn down yet another temporary contract, no problem to the airline, because theres hundreds of cadets behind you that will take the contract

Rubbish :ugh:

[Melnaboo]

Flexicrew?

Don't worry guys. There is not student loans anymore, so, we cannot get even that.

I am in my reapplication. I failed at stage 3 because my English level, so I left the job, the family and my country (Spain) and I came to work to UK just to improve it until the reapplication time... now, when the time has passed and I able to re-apply, all become a mass.

Flexicrew? I would like to have the chance to be worried about that.

I would feel so fortunate if I have that chance and I would not complain about FLY AN AIRLINER in summer and look for a job from september until next summer for the next two or three years to get flying hours.

What are you thinking guys? times are bad and CTC is moving with it. If you don't like it, then you can try to get your licenses by the "traditional" way and after try to apply for a job... and you will be very lucky if you fly a C152 once a month and be payed for that... and in that moment you will feel how good is the "flexicrew" scheme.

I'm afraid I will have not the chance to be worried about the "Flexicrew" thing after all, so, good luck to all of you who has that chance and please, look out at the real world before complain your "terrible" situation.

Good flights.

[one post only!]

Dr Fox, I was being sarcastic with "everyone is a winner". A little "hmmm" face doesn't really help re-enforce the point I guess!!!! The real winners are always just going to be the airlines and CTC. To be honest I don't really think new cadets will really be winners out of this either. I think we both agree that some might (via flexi) find themselves on a very protracted and difficult route to a permanent RHS job incurring a lot of cost and along the way and potentially helping to destroy T&C's for the rest of us!!

I totally agree with you about the problems this creates for unemployed experienced guys. Someone like Melnaboo comes along, pretty much works for free and there you go! We are all screwed!

I guess CTC have dreamed this up as they need to get cadets out flying so that they
A) stay in business as I bet they need cash flow like everyone else.
B) keep placing people so that they can keep recruiting.

While perhaps genuinely trying to do anything to get people up flying I feel that this scheme is a bit like giving a tramp £10 for some hot food on a cold winters day. Done with good intentions you come back later to find him smashed in a ditch surrounded by empty bottles of meths!!!!

While this scheme exists are airlines less likely to take on a permanent full-time cadet?? I reckon so.

[doctorfox]

one post only, sorry mate, didnt pick up ur sarcasm! your absolutely right. people saying they would give anything to fly for summer and do something else for winter is exactly what CTC and airlines are exploiting. And this is what is causing the problem for experienced unemployed guys, and ultimately these new cadets will become experienced unemployed guys.

Melnaboo, I appreciate your eagerness to fly, and I agree with you, I was there myself and so were many others, but believe me doing 6 months of the job you dream of, earning a good income, seeing new places, working nice hours and then to have it all taken away and working in a bar or as a leaflet distributor, double the hours and half the money and little motivation is something that i believe you can't keep up for long. Esprecially as there will be no guarantee of work the next summer.

One final point, in defence of CTC, they have been in the industry alot longer than most of us, they have a wealth of experience and this flexicrew thing may work out better than expected! They may have seen something that we havn't! I have my doubts tho!

[wirefly84]

Bjkeates it is quite apparent that you are only on this forum to slate people for their views if they are the oppisite of yours and paint yourself to be more intelligent than the next. Yes you may have more experience than most but what gives you the right to be rude when no one has been to you? I am quite capable of writing in 'Standard English' as you put it, but the people that replied to me in my inbox seemed to easily understand what i was getting at.This forum isint famous for its perfect spelling and grammer, and as the message was not meant for you anyway - why dont you keep your nose out? So easy for people to be smart when they have a computer screen to hide behind dont you think? Other than that your views on flexicrew are spot on.:)

[bjkeates]

Oh dear oh dear... touched a nerve did we? :)

When you've got a nearly six-figure debt to service and no way of doing it - as was my position until some unexpected news the other week - you'll understand why I made the comments I did towards Bambe.

You'll also find that the vast majority of users on this forum do not like "txt spk", and the moderators take a slightly dim view of it too.

I have no desire to become embroiled in a personal spat in a public forum. You'll find pretty much all of my posts on this forum have been intended to help people, I have better things to do with my time than sit around on PPrune all day and "slate people". Please direct any further correspondence via PM if you feel it necessary. Otherwise, happy flying and enjoy New Zealand.

[PAJ]

A little unnecessary there Wirefly! As someone who has not even started the course yourself, any advice offered to you by someone with more experience is valuable. Fair enough, how you write is up to you (although if we are going down that route it's 'grammAr' !!! - sorry, couldn't resist) but claiming that Mr Keates is only here to slate people is highly unfounded. If you were to take the time to go back through this thread, you will find a number of very useful posts indeed from him.

Edit: bjk, got in there to defend yourself before I could step in!

[Bambe]

.. EZY which recently didn't keep some 15 CTC cadets, is at the moment rating some 15 new ones... Let's bet they won't be kept on.. It's sad but what can we say????? Would any of you refuse starting your type rating thinking I'm used as a f:mad:g free pilot? I don't think so.

[one post only!]

I really hope they are but our internal news letter has just stated that we (EZY) will not be taking on any permanent crew for summer 09. Hope the original 15 get back in and not via Flexi!

[bjkeates]

One Post Only - see my post over in the Easyjet Holding Pool thread on the T&E forum.

Of those released this winter, two have found employment elsewhere; BALPA have told us that easyJet have said the remaining 13 will indeed be taken on via CTC FlexiCrew. They also confirmed what the company said about no permanent recruitment for 2009.

[one post only!]

That sucks!

[dahawg123]

I'm afraid I will have not the chance to be worried about the "Flexicrew" thing after all, so, good luck to all of you who has that chance and please, look out at the real world before complain your "terrible" situation

I see your point, in that you are desperate to fly, but I was wondering if you could help me with my maths? How many months, at a rate of 0 pounds a month, does it take to pay off a 60000 GBP debt??

The harsh reality is that people have sold their souls/body parts/futures to HSBC and need some way to pay that back. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of people, the only way that they will be able to repay this debt is through a permanent airline job. Unless Tesco has started paying 40K a year.....

[speedy688]

This is crap. CTC stuff things up for other people again. They save themselves at the expense of others. If I were made redundant tomorrow then I wouldn't be able to get another permanent job because the contractors would be picked first on their lower wage and flexible terms!

Hopefully this will all be short lived - HSBC not giving funding for the wings scheme anymore (they certainly aren't going to lend £60k unsecured to someone who is going to be contracting when they graduate) means far less cadet graduates & hopefully a lot less needy graduates in the flexi scheme. When things pick up in the industry in a few years (fingers crossed) and there is a demand for pilots again then hopefully the we will be in a position to negotiate permanent positions.

[largegeorgejones]

Hey Guys

Just thought I would share some info. There is a really good book I found on the internet on interview preparation. It's almost exactly the CTC interview process in a book. Dunno if it's intentional or not but I found it really useful. Called get a head for the sky. Just add .com onto the end for the site. Got me through so far! Thought I would share!

Just the sim to go!

George

[bigjarv]

I found the book too when I was going through CTC. Was pretty good actually. I think it is pretty safe to say it was a fairly major part of my success!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The wheels are coming off big time.

Pay £80k net to be qualified for a £20k gross a year job? The loan would cost £4k net in interest. Your real income would be roughly the same as a shop manager in Gap earning £14k a year.

Is this why you worked so hard to get an Instrument Rating for your Commercial Pilots License?


Madness.


WWW

[Night_fr8]

For those of you who think that CTC will be the best route because of their post training job placement record.
Forget it, as there are more people in the pool than they can cope with and more joining every month.
Even if you are lucky enough to get a short term placement you will hardly cover your outgoings before being back in the pool awaiting a proper job.
There are many qualified Pilots available out there and the chances of a permanent placement from CTC are fast receding.

There are other schools out there with equally good or better training standards who even now are placing pilots, so dont believe the Hype listen to WWW and others, before you choose what ever training establishment suits you best.

The benefits of CTC are fast waning, but in the next two to three years there may well be an upturn in the job market, so Good Luck to You ALL

[davedek]

Night_fr8:

There are other schools out there with equally good or better training standards who even now are placing pilots

Really? Name one.

Also, did you know that a group of CTC cadets are starting/have started on the line with Thomas Cook this month?

[99jolegg]

Looking at his past posts, he put his son through OAA...so maybe he's referring to that.

[Bambe]

Yes they have started through the flexi scheme.........which is better than nothing

[akindofmagic]

It would be nice if people would refrain from posting on topics of which they have little or no knowledge.

Those recently taken on by TCX are not on the flexi scheme. The terms are standard cadet.

[pre3mhjt]

I agree, it would be nice if only those "with a clue" posted, but after many years of Prune reading I'm sure we're all aware that it won't ever happen.No-One placed through the Flexi Scheme yet. Merry Xmas

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well, lets face it. The supply pipe is going to be VASTLY bigger than the placement pipe in 2009 so its going to be an orderly queue for a big bite of the poo sandwhich.

CTC grads are still better off than the rest of the food chain below them though. Cold comfort I know.

XL, Silverjet, Oasis and all that bollo5x was just the pre-tremor. The quake has not yet hit.


WWW

[Allocate_on_Arrival]

Why oh why...

I've have bitten my tongue for long enough now... it's just getting silly.

WWW, what was that last prediction of 'fire and brimstone' in response to, or was it just our weekly dose of your version of morbid reality?

I'll tell you this for free, you are not in a position to cast predications. Don't get me wrong, the rest of us aren't either, that's why we all sit silently (most of the time) awatching this thread, awaiting movement in the industry or economy.

The quake has not yet hit.

Blatant scare-mongery.

Let me ask you this now, are you involved with the CTC wings scheme in any particular way or is it just a little fun to scare off potential new pilots. I am just bemused by your avid interest in it. Is it easy bait to pick on pilots new who are not aware of the this industry and its sinusoidal nature?

Put yourself in the situation of the people who are already nuts deep into their training or are head down in preparation for selection. How can you possibly guarantee there will be no place for them in the industry when they complete training? I believe the answer to that would be no...

Let's get down to the nitty gritty:-
FACT: The holding pool is about 50 strong
However (commar one space)

FACT: 8 people were placed with TCX in September (merely weeks after XL and Zoom went t1ts skyward)
FACT: X people start type rating with EJ (something you should know all about apparently) on 737's in a couple of weeks.
FACT: There are upcoming EJ 737 TR's booked in 2009
FACT: Monarch have said they expect to re-recruit in 2009 the cadets they laid-off
FACT: Although EJ guys were laid off, their bonds were paid for them for 6 months whilst they either found alternative employment (which CTC helped with) or held out for return positions in the summer.
FACT: Flexi-crew is a short term solution to what we all hope to be a short term problem. However if this 'recession' proves to be more than transitory then HSBC will have to arrange different repayment options, remember thought you still have the best training in the industry and the most competent and experienced placement team behind you. Not to mention the chance of serious employment under the flexi scheme. Its just like pay-2-fly without the paying and the hatred of the entire aviation industry.

Or you could always go elsewhere, complete your training and buy a photocopier and a franking machine with your change for all the wasted CV's you'll have to send out. Only to find yourself 5 years down the line flying a washing machine, trust me, been there, seen it all.

CTC is not perfect, but you could do a hell of a lot worse.

Jerry's final thought:-
Up-to this point WWW, of reading your posts I have drawn nothing useful or constructive, merely speculative and vacuous semi-facts. Maybe its just me and my many years of experience in the industry or perhaps the delusions of moderation have gone to your head?

Is it too much to ask for a new years resolution in 'The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread' to be 'I must tell the truth' and 'I must not speculate'

Answer: Probably :ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ok allocate_on_arrival, here's why oh why.


WWW, what was that last prediction of 'fire and brimstone' in response to, or was it just our weekly dose of your version of morbid reality?

No it was a few minutes before midnight and my normal hesitancy was slackened by drink and merry making.


I'll tell you this for free, you are not in a position to cast predications. Don't get me wrong, the rest of us aren't either, that's why we all sit silently (most of the time) awatching this thread, awaiting movement in the industry or economy.

I'll tell you this for free, I am in a position to cast predictions because I did and they all came true. Bottom line. If you want to be a pundit then you live and die by your predictions. At the moment I make Robert Preston look like my understudy. That's a cocky statement but it is true. I have bragging rights.

Quote:
The quake has not yet hit.
Blatant scare-mongery.



No. Totally true. We have has the tremours like Woolies. The main shocks are coming in 2009. It might be scary but its no mongery.

Let me ask you this now, are you involved with the CTC wings scheme in any particular way or is it just a little fun to scare off potential new pilots. I am just bemused by your avid interest in it. Is it easy bait to pick on pilots new who are not aware of the this industry and its sinusoidal nature?


No the only involvement I have is with flying with many of the Wings cadets. As such I know what has happened and what is happening. Sinusoidal? Is that mentioned on AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING (http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/) ?

Put yourself in the situation of the people who are already nuts deep into their training or are head down in preparation for selection. How can you possibly guarantee there will be no place for them in the industry when they complete training? I believe the answer to that would be no...

Put yourself in the situation of the people who are already nuts deep into the application process or 'selection' and who are about to commit financial suicide. How can you possibly guarantee there will be a place for them in the industry when they complete training? I believe the answer to that would be no...


Let's get down to the nitty gritty:-
FACT: The holding pool is about 50 strong
However (commar one space)

My big hairy arse it is.

FACT: 8 people were placed with TCX in September (merely weeks after XL and Zoom went t1ts skyward)
FACT: X people start type rating with EJ (something you should know all about apparently) on 737's in a couple of weeks.
FACT: There are upcoming EJ 737 TR's booked in 2009
FACT: Monarch have said they expect to re-recruit in 2009 the cadets they laid-off
FACT: Although EJ guys were laid off, their bonds were paid for them for 6 months whilst they either found alternative employment (which CTC helped with) or held out for return positions in the summer.
FACT: Flexi-crew is a short term solution to what we all hope to be a short term problem. However if this 'recession' proves to be more than transitory then HSBC will have to arrange different repayment options, remember thought you still have the best training in the industry and the most competent and experienced placement team behind you. Not to mention the chance of serious employment under the flexi scheme. Its just like pay-2-fly without the paying and the hatred of the entire aviation industry.

There are hundreds HUNDREDS of CTC cadets either graduated in the pool, returned to the pool, in New Zealand or about to go to New Zealand. Applications, Interviews and Selection days continue.


Or you could always go elsewhere, complete your training and buy a photocopier and a franking machine with your change for all the wasted CV's you'll have to send out. Only to find yourself 5 years down the line flying a washing machine, trust me, been there, seen it all.



CTC is not perfect, but you could do a hell of a lot worse.



Yeah, I said that last week on this thread.

Jerry's final thought:-
Up-to this point WWW, of reading your posts I have drawn nothing useful or constructive, merely speculative and vacuous semi-facts. Maybe its just me and my many years of experience in the industry or perhaps the delusions of moderation have gone to your head?



Weasleys final thought:-

Do you have 10,000hrs, are you a Captain, have you moderated this forum for a decade, have you instructed both Modular and Integrated students and are you totally unconnected from the flying training industry and here MERELY for the benefit of Wannabes?


Is it too much to ask for a new years resolution in 'The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread' to be 'I must tell the truth' and 'I must not speculate'


Your cadets will be going bankrupt by the dozen. That's the bottom line.


Answer: Probably.


Are we clear?

WWW

[no sponsor]

CTC must be getting a little worried. All that capital investment needs to be oiled by the loans obtained by those cadets.

As for the flexi scheme, I personally find it an appalling precedent. And as for the EZY courses - are there not enough suitably qualified ex-FOs from XL and others, or is just the fact that CTC are responsible for devaluing the profession as a whole by flooding it with free workers?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I can only pass on the comments made by others that FlexiWings is just a means of delaying cadets from going bankrupt whilst stealing promotions from serving senior First Officers who will be offered summer commands covered by FlexiWings FO's.


If you want a prediction it will be this. Things will turn nasty in 2009 and posters here will be ripping lumps out of each other.


WWW

[DanT1982]

As someone who recently completed the Wings selection, I must say I have always found WWWs contribution to this thread very helpful.
Although there is a lot of useful stuff to be found on this thread for any aspiring CTC cadet I’d hardly call it a balanced discussion.
Personally I think we are quite lucky to get tailored impartial opinions from someone with his credentials. Makes a change from the rose tinted monotony that makes up 80% of this thread.

I for one hope he continues too contribute.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

All words of encouragement are gratefully received!

WWW

[IDENTING]

So it seems some of you will get jobs, some of you wont, I know if all of you keep at it you will ALL get jobs eventually. There is no way CTC can promise anything at the moment. In this industry it hard enough to get a job when the market is buoyant let alone when it is as turbulent as it is now. All one can do is consolidate the time one has at ones disposal by making sure your as focused as you can be. I noticed on the previous page there was a reference to getaheadforthesky dot com, I used this book when I was considering the CTC AQC Wings scheme two and a half years ago and it filled me with the confidence I would need to pass the various stages. As it happened I never went for the scheme and became a flying instructor but used the book to help me get thru the subsequent interviews with another airline... and got the job! Get your hands on this book and become the best you can be, its time and money well spent! Highly recommended. Good luck to everyone and hang in there!

[Day_Dreamer]

CTC will NOT be able to place all in their holding pool and those about to join.
The industry has long taken the cheap labour supplied by CTC and ultimately employed most of them, but now the winds of change are sweeping through the world economies and for people to believe the CTC hype they will be sorely mistaken.
The benefits of CTC of yesteryear are fading fast, Unsecured Loans, Readily available jobs are now a thing of the past.

If your only idea in training with CTC is their job placement record, then don't join solely on that premise, you will be disappointed in the next couple of years.

There is one I know in the holding pool awaiting that job who has been out of work over a year, and because they were not a full course student is waiting in line behind those coming through.
Can you afford to wait over a year ?

CTC are now no different to other large training establishments, but the market will upturn in 2010 so make your choice carefully.

[99jolegg]

I read in a magazine today that CTC's selection fee has dropped to just £50....I believe it used to be around the £180 mark plus £100 if you had to re-sit a phase.

[kwb911]

I read in a magazine today that CTC's selection fee has dropped to just £50....I believe it used to be around the £180 mark plus £100 if you had to re-sit a phase.


The info was posted on their website in the news section on Dec 15th

[Sciolistes]

There is one I know in the holding pool awaiting that job who has been out of work over a year, and because they were not a full course student is waiting in line behind those coming through.
Well people from ATP have been placed, just not with what people at the time perceived as the most attractive options. Did he mention the corresponding emails asking for interest?

[skeletor]

A friend of mine has just passed ctc using this "Get a head for the sky" book......seems like a little gem.

There is hope.....fingers crossed for 2009.

[Chilli Corneto]

Just thought I would chip in with my experiences.

I've recently passed all the selection at CTC and intend to join one of their courses in the summer. Probably July or August depending upon how much money I can put aside til then.

It's been mentioned a fair bit recently but I thought I would also recommend the book 'getaheadfortheysky dot com'. I got it, read it, absorbed the information and prepared for each stage and got through first time without much stress. It definately helped and was my ace up the sleeve.

Good luck to everyone else that goes through their selection process. It's tough, competitive, good fun (especially the sim!) and bloody worth it should you get offered a place. At least it is in my opinion.

Cheers,

Chilli.

[marcuzzofly]

Hi guys,

It is true that the sponsorship scheme with ctc is not anymore done because of the financial crisis all over the globe?

Thanks

[99jolegg]

No, not true. Read the various threads (the one you're posting in for a start) and you'll see that the unsecured loan facility through HSBC has been stopped. For how long? Nobody knows. If you can source the finance elsewhere, the Wings scheme is still perfectly viable.

My guess (largely uneducated on the grand scheme of things) is that when CTC get their record of placing people within a month of the final stage of the Wings course back, the banks will be happier to lend to the cadets.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

£75k unsecured credit for flight training isn't coming back anytime soon.

Good riddance.


WWW

[student88]

Yes, and long may it be cast into the archives never to return. Having to work for the money will really sort the men from the boys with regards to who really wants to become a pilot. It's been all to easy going up to a bank, asking for a lot of money for nothing and being spoon fed your integrated course.

[bjkeates]

While I agree that a free-for-all of massive unsecured lending to get into such a volatile industry is a bad thing particularly in the current climate, I find that last comment quite insulting to those of us who have been through this particular course and worked damn hard to get in the right hand seat of a jet.

Spoon-feeding it is not.

[student88]

You are correct, for it is very late and I am tired. My apologies. Next time I will select a better term to express the difference between modular and integrated.

[one post only!]

Wow, someone has a little chip on their shoulder!

I do agree that those who went through the course were spoon fed. However the spoon was very large, full of sickly tasting medicine and was rammed sideways where the sun doesn't shine! Sometimes felt like that anyway......

[Chilli Corneto]

I do agree that those who went through the course were spoon fed. However the spoon was very large, full of sickly tasting medicine and was rammed sideways where the sun doesn't shine! Sometimes felt like that anyway......

Please elaborate.

Some people are close to starting this course and spending a lot of money to do so.

[PAJ]

I don't believe it's fair to say that anyone doing an integrated course is spoon fed! I can tell you from experience that CTC Wings cadets have extremely high standards expected of them from day one, much higher than those required for basic licence issue. I would agree that once the finances are sorted at the start, you don't have to worry about how you will pay for the next session of hour building, or where you will find the extra cash for ground school but I can guarantee that as a CTC pilot, you will recieve the best training there is out there. There is a perfectly good thread out there (Integrated vs Modular) to bash Integrated providers if you so wish, but this thread is not here for that purpose. I do think that there is some relevance to post about finances in here though.

Chilli Corneto, I think what they were referring to there was the fact that although the results you will achieve might be way above what other training pilots achieve, it is not easy to get there! CTC work you very hard, and there is pressure all the time to achieve - and if you fail to meet standards, the pressure is applied further. Some people are not able to cope with the pressure, and the CTC way definitely does not suit everyone but it is tried, tested and will make you a very skilled and knowledgeable 220hr pilot.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Look, I trained Modular myself and went on to be a flight instructor at an Integrated school. I have seen both sides of the fence.

It is absolutely 100% correct to say that an Integrated course spoonfeeds you where a Modular course doesn't. That is no bad thing. A large chunk of the premium you pay is for exactly that service.

Essentially on day one you hand over the cheque, pick up your uniform, get issued your books and shown to your room. You then follow the timetable, attend the right classroom, abide by the study plan, listen to your instructor, work hard and pop out of the other end with your 11 other course mates with a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL. That is spoonfeeding.

Which is great.

You can rephrase it as benefitting from consistent training with high continuity of insutruction. Or you can call it spoonfeeding. In the same way that, say, the RAF, spoonfeeds its pilots for three whole years to get them from Effects of Control 1 to A2A Live Firing 1.


At the end of the day everyone passes the same tests administered by the same examiners and flies to an indistinguishable standard. I honestly cannot tell the difference between a Modular or Integrated co-pilot when at work because there isn't one.


WWW

[one post only!]

Chilli, I was joking. All i meant is that there is a lot to take in! Steep learning curve and all that! Even if you are spoon fed there is still a lot of eating required!!!

I was thinking of the IR......

[Chilli Corneto]

and there is pressure all the time to achieve - and if you fail to meet standards, the pressure is applied further.

You should meet my director! Now he is hard person to please. In fact you never can please him because he never knows what he wants. :E :E :E :E

At least I am going to know what is expected of me for a change!!! :p

I look forward to the work. It's all I've ever wanted to do.

Chilli

[akindofmagic]

It is absolutely 100% correct to say that an Integrated course spoonfeeds you where a Modular course doesn't.

What a load of utter nonsense. I usually agree broadly with what WWW says. However, in this case I think he is way off the mark.

It is absolutely wrong to say that an integrated (or the CTC highly structured modular course) spoonfeeds the cadet. To follow the logic used by WWW, any degree would be considered "spoonfeeding".

I studied law at one of the top universities in the country, and when I started a course each term I would be handed a course planner which contained the required reading for the course, the lecture/ seminar and tutorial schedule etc. However, it was up to the individual student to do the reading, attend the lectures, do the work that was required to complete the course. This is not spoonfeeding; it is simply the accepted way of structuring learning at, I would suggest, the vast majority of institutions around the country.

This is exactly the same with CTC (and I would assume any other similar course). It is up to the individual concerned to work as much or as little as he or she wants to achieve the desired result. You will not be handed "the answers" on a plate. You will have to work bloody hard. You will have to be prepared to do additional reading on your own initiative, to nail any issues that you as an individual find tricky.

I personally find it incredibly insulting that a training captain with a major UK airline seems to think that integrated (or CTC) cadets have been given an easy route (compared to modular students) to gaining the little blue book. Sadly, this seems to me to be indicative of the attitude of a significant number of people within the airline industry. Hopefully, this attititude will eventually change, but I won't be holding my breath.

[bjkeates]

You will have to be prepared to do additional reading on your own initiative, to nail any issues that you as an individual find tricky.Eh? Was the Bristol question bank not good enough for you mate? :E

You're supposed to have been spoonfed, remember!!

[akindofmagic]

Silence, Keatsey :p

You're ruining my point. :E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I personally find it incredibly insulting that a training captain with a major UK airline seems to think that integrated (or CTC) cadets have been given an easy route (compared to modular students) to gaining the little blue book.

Then you must be wandering around looking for something to get insulted by.

Son, try sorting out your own PPL, then hour building abroad, then finding a CPL and IR school whilst studying your ATPL at home in the evening after work. Then book your own exams, sort out all your travel and accomodation requirements and manage the finances over 18 months. Do all that without 11 other course mates for support and encouragement.

That's the NON-Spoonfeeding way of doing it.

Do you see there is a slight difference?

Its not something imagined. I'm not prejudiced either way and I know the pros and cons possibly better than anyone else as I've spent an unhealthy portion of my life on this planet moderating the never ending story that is the Modular vs Integrated debate.

Nothing wrong with spoonfeeding.

WWW


ps I'm not a training captain

[jb5000]

I'm not sure how you could possibly call CTC anything other than 'spoon feeding'?!

- Flights/transfers/accommodation to NZ booked for us.
- Flight case containing headset/pens/ruler etc. given to us
- Uniform ordered for us
- PPL theory instruction given
- Mass Briefs at every stage of the course. (Never see that at a PPL school!)
- Each flight's objectives publically available so you knew exactly what to expect
- Laborious solo 'sign out' procedure
- Flight with an instructor every 3 flights during the solo hour building phase
- Online ground school for us to do whenever we wanted to. (Don't forget how everyone moaned when they actually had to come into the airport rather than sit in Clearways and do it).
- Don't even get me started about BGS! That's more duck foie-gras style feeding.
- IR profile after IR profile after IR profile in BOH. I went to Alderney for my IR, my 170A and the two flights before it. (As well as in the sim a month earlier)
- AQC to get us ready for a type rating.

Quote from JM (CP39) : "I just turn up when I'm told and do what I'm told", after revealing he didn't actually know what priviledges an IR would convey.

Yes, I appreciate it was 'hard work', but it was a sausage-factory and the resources available meant that you could get away with thinking about life on a week to week basis, if not day to day.

Personally, I don't see the advantage of making life difficult for yourself and have no opinion as to whether modular or integrated makes you a better pilot.

'Spoon-feeding' is most definitely not an insult, it's just occasionally dished out by the 'you had things easier than me so I'm a bitter old man' brigade. (WWW excepted, of course...!)

[air_wolf]

it was total spoon-feeding, from start to finish.
has to be one of the most pointless discussions i've seen on pprune tho.

any ideas what the ctc hold pool is up to now? must be around the 100 mark.

[The African Dude]

Nowhere near, air_wolf - less than a third of that figure. Plus, quite a few cadets have been placed recently.

Which is always nice.. :O

[bjkeates]

I suppose it depends on one's interpretation of the word.

When it was first mentioned, it sounded like cadets were being accused of turning up, paying a lot of money and being given a licence for not very much effort, input and application.

I prefer to think of it as paying a premium to take away a lot of hassle!

[EZYramper]

The hold pool currently consists of CP's 47 48 and 49, no?

That's about 36 cadets if I'm not wrong.

[air_wolf]

where are cadets being "placed"? BA arent taking anyone, nor are monarch as far as i know. can only be going to thomas cook or easyjet type ratings + 6 months line training (then shown the door?)

if you take all those who have finished the wings course and dont have permanent contracts in the right hand seat of a jet must be way more than 36. hope im wrong.

[sharpclassic]

When you say cadets have been 'placed', have they been given proper placements or are they on course to Shaftsville via the FlexiWings scam?

I don't believe that there are only 36 cadets waiting to be placed after those who were let go at the end of last summer are taken into consideration.

[PAJ]

36 is fairly accurate. Another 10 or so are likey to join the holdpool at the end of the month though. Communications from CTC indicate that those released after line training have mostly either already found alternative employment with other carriers or they have an interview coming up. Aer Lingus have invited 13 for interview I believe. TCX took 8 on a year long contract initially, all of whom are now on the line. TR's are on-going at present on both the A320 and B737NG.

[air_wolf]

does that 36 include all those sitting in the BA hold pool? must be a fair few of them. and are easyjet still taking on cadets for 6 months then just dumping them?

[bjkeates]

easyJet's - and BALPA's - communications to staff (including an e-mail to me personally from one of the BALPA company council reps) indicate that any intake for 2009 will be through the FlexiCrew 'initiative'. I have no idea how many this affects, or whether it takes into account those who were on the 737 type rating with easyJet before FlexiCrew was announced.

Also it goes without saying that being invited for interview does not guarantee a job nor constitute removal from the hold pool...

[BitMoreRightRudder]

bjkeates have you got something else sorted since ezy let you go? If so well done. Any idea how the other guys are getting on, I knew a few of the guys who were with us up in LPL....

[bjkeates]

Yep, I'm one of the lucky few to have done. I know a few others have as well, but to the best of my knowledge there will be a fair few going back in summer on FlexiCrew (although will stand corrected if anyone has different info). Check PMs shortly...

[PAJ]

Not 100% on whether that includes the BA lot - either way, as long as circumstances don't change, they will be on TR in the next fortnight.

[Chilli Corneto]

I'm very very apprehensive over this 'Flexicrew Initative'. :uhoh:

As someone that is intending to join a course in 2009 I would not wish to sacrifice all that money, time and effort into being trained as an airline pilot, only to be offered part time summer work at the end of it.

If I wanted a part time summer job I would have trained to be a life guard and gone down to Cornwall every March - September! :ugh:

At least I would be a bit slimmer!

[air_wolf]

BA type ratings in the next fortnight - would be amazed. where did you get that info from?

[sharpclassic]

BA are not doing any pilot recruitment before the end of March and that is a fact. Thereafter, they are going to review the situation and see how many, if any at all, they need. Im pretty sure that goes for both newbies and DEPs

[PAJ]

Its not a BA type rating, it's another CTC one.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This is a total guess, not defamatory, call it an hysteric rant by a mad man...


There's at least 60 in the CTC hold pool and the number will grow by a dozen a month until I decide its safe to by a Porsche again.


This will be some years into the future.


WWW

[The African Dude]

WWW: not quite that number, but getting closer when you start including ATP pilots in the figure. Wouldn't you prefer a DB9, though?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What? Some Ford engineered Arab owned piece of 1950's nostalgia? Not likely.

Anyway. I'll be unemployed as the Depression wipes out airline after airline so hold pools and supercars will all become somewhat academic.

People have no idea how bad this will become.


WWW