The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

You wouldn't believe what we got given in the "old days". Highlights included £5000 each from easyjet as a contribution towards living costs that in reality was spent on copious amounts of god-awful beer and strippers to come out to the compound near Ardmore when it was a cadets birthday, and of course the weekly CP grocery visit to Wendy's Burgers. We got 2 Corolla's between a course of 6 and we even got a laptop each. To be fair we didn't do future cadets any favours - the laptops situation was "reviewed" after one too many needing their hard-drive reconstructed after being totally corrupted by copious amounts of dodgy porn that were downloaded on them - one of the lads from CP12 (allegedly) won the medal for the most dubious content - I won't go into details...

We also finished off the Corolla era with some pretty impressive driving efforts, the best being the cadet from CP 20 I think who wiped out 4 cars in one go in the Peachgrove car park after his "foot got stuck on the accelerator" while he was "heading out early on christmas morning" to "go to church". So to all those cadets now having to buy rusty Japanese death traps, I salute you, and on behalf of the offending members of the many CPs' who boldly went before you, I apologise!

[One9iner]

Yeah, the good old days sound like a lot more was given to the cadets for the initial financial investment.

In today's climate, you want to make sure that when you buy a car, you get a permitt to park in the Clearways Car Park to avoid the threat of being "clamped" by the powers that be. The problem is something to do with too many cars per CP :ugh: Well either provide cars to the cadets or build a bigger car park :rolleyes:

I'm not surprised that the laptop give away was 'reviewed'. However, no matter how much RAM, or flashing lights, or apple logo's you've got on your laptop these days, the internet connection at Clearways is ridiculous. Or at least it was when I was there. It was somewhere between either completely off, to slower than dial up. And the 5mg limit per cadet a month is laughable.

[Zippy Monster]

I was on one of the first CPs into Clearways. To be fair, despite the fact we didn't have it quite the same as BMRR's era (£5000 from the airline?!!), we still had it pretty good overall. There were a few design faults with Clearways and evidence of certain bits being done on the cheap, but generally it was a nice place to be and many of the problems there were caused by the cadets themselves thinking they were 18 and in first-year university halls again, and treating the place like a dump. I remember visiting the place during my second stint in NZ, and it was totally different to the brand new, spotlessly clean facility I moved into when it was first built - and it was still less than a year old. Some people just didn't know how to behave.

That said, ever since the place was built the internet connection was a joke. I can't remember what the bandwidth limit was, but I do remember that the package they had at the time was nowhere near suitable for 96 rooms (as it was then) and they were paying a ridiculous sum for excess downloading, which caused no end of stroppy e-mails and threats to cut people off. In fact, at one point they disconnected everyone from everything except e-mail and 'Tracker', and then wondered why the flying schedule ground to a halt every morning because nobody could do their planning the night before! Even before then, most people were left with no internet from mid-afternoon onwards because the router was put in a small cupboard with no air-conditioning and kept automatically shutting down, and not rebooting until about 1am the next day. I think it did improve after we left, but not massively so going on what One9iner says!

Clamping their own cadets' cars in their own car park at their own residence is a new one though - that is hilarious. And not altogether surprising.

[One9iner]

Not sure if the clamping ever happened, but threats were made... Think a "2 car per CP" limit was trying to be enforced when I was there. Some CP's would have a few cars, and the car park became very full. I didn't see the problem though.. People buy a car, they expect to be able to park it where they live !!

The internet issue - we were continually assured that investment was being made to improve the service. It never happened when I was there. The 5mg limit was enforced however, you would be cut off with only access given to CTC email and the ops website if you reached the limit for the month. Not great when you wanted to skype home, although skype was a comical experience with the internet connection anyway.

Like all things, nothing is ever perfect, but the way in which some of the 'problems' were managed was hilarious.

[jhr187]

Would any present NZ students like to tell us what it's like now?

[One9iner]

My mistake . 5GB:ok:

[FlyerJoe]

Has Anybody completed the CTC and the PTC assessment? If so how do they compare? Are they the same level of difficulty? :confused:

[Lakhan]

Flybe to have partnership with CTC? Looks like it from their website. :ooh:

[Praesten]

Does anybody know the T&C for the CTC/Qatar placement. Does the "old" standard 6 months at 1200£ tax free and no upfront type rating payment apply? Any indications of QR taking more than the first 18 pilots ?

I have been in the CTC ATP pool for more than 3 years....:eek:

[lazy george]

QUOTE:Would any present NZ students like to tell us what it's like now?

Right how long have you got.

The ground school in nursling is a joke although the instructors are good.
The CBT isnt fit for purpose.
The organisation is atrocious.
The housing in Southampton is sound.

In NZ you get a car for 3weeks usually 3 per CP.
You'll be lucky to get into Clearways unless your a Jap student, Royal Brunei or if you have an airline. What they don't tell you when they sell you it is that they have a Brothel/Crack Den of a place called Peachgrove where you go until a place opens up in Clearways, which is possibly 3-4 months down the line. Its about 10 miles from the airport, cockroach infested and you share this place with drug dealers and other folk (sadly no hookers). The only good point is that its walking distance from Hamilton Centre. Whilst in NZ you spend a lot of time doing nothing so buy a bike, guitar, ball and cup or whatever else amuses you as it can get intensely boring unless you have enough money to do things or drink heavily(which isn't cheap).

But when all is said and done the flying is amazing and very well taught, the scenery is to die for whilst up and flying is what you came out here to do not a holiday.

At the end of it all if CTC get me a license and contracted employment well it was all worth it, if its flexi-crew then It may of been worth it, we'll see.

Go into it with your eyes open, do your research, don't fall for the sales pitch!

[Zippy Monster]

Blimey, don't let some of the older CPs hear you talk about their beloved Peachgrove with such disdain! A lot of people held it in great affection when I was there... :)

Does anyone know if they still use Dey Street? Because Peachgrove was/is a palace in comparison to that dump, where I ended up for 3 weeks while Clearways was still being built. I've a feeling they don't any more - what an utterly depressing place it was.

[JimmyNZ]

So I was reading through this post and there seemed to be a lot of negative stuff on employment with easyJet as an outcome from CTC becoming a part of flexi-crew etc.

I was wondering what happens with the Jetstar program after you graduate do you become a part of flexi-crew or do you actually get employed by Jetstar.

Also what things are involved in the Aptitude Test and what tests on the Internet would be most similar to the CTC one?

Thanks

[Hassan777]

Hi, I am eager to know whether it's possible to take out a modular pilot training route at CTC Wings as I am currently training to obtain a PPL. I have had a look on their website but I can only get 'Cadet' or 'ATPL' option. And another thing I'd like to find out is what are the chances of getting a job as a Airline pilot straight after graduating with all the licences. I'm still 16 but I am very keen to find out about this as I'm doing my PPL.

[student630]

Hi,

I realise that this has probably been covered in this post or in any other posts but i cannot find any using the search function but can someone enlighten me to the difference between being employed by EasyJet and being part of the "Flexicrew" for EasyJet?

[Praesten]

Could somebody tell me about the T&C for the Qatar deal with CTC.....information is highly appriciated :ok:

Please send me a PM if you have information.

Thank you in advance.

[Stonebaked]

Anyone starting CP100 in September ?

[Fmfox]

These questions may have already been answered but could somebody clear them up?
1) You have to take a bond of £70k, is this repayed or not?
2) What is the employment like after finishing the course...is it contracts or full time etc...do you have to pay for type training
3) Is CTC better than going modular or OAA etc?
Thanks :)

[FANS]

1) Forget the use of the word bond.

You pay the course fee. If you take out a loan for this fee of £70k+, you repay it in accordance with the loan agreement.

2) Employment after finishing the course is dependent upon the situation when you finish the course. You will have no guarantee of a job, which is true of most courses.

Others can update on the situation today.

3) Best course is to get a tagged scheme, e.g. BA. This question is for another debate.

[HPbleed]

Welcome to the forums, expect your post to get moved into a different section as you've posted in the "Cabin Crew Wannabes," which isn't really what you are after.

As for CTC and/or becoming an airline pilot you do not NEED to go to university or have a degree. CTC take applicants from 18, but you need to have shown some get up and go in other respects, high grades whilst holding down a weekend job to earn money to pay for flying lessons for example but be a good start. Join an air cadets near you and do as much flying as you can - gliding or powered.

Again, physics isn't essential - but a solid grounding in basic maths and science generally will help with learning along your training. Buy a couple of PPL books (your local flying school can help) and start looking over physics of flight and law to get an idea of what you will need to learn later on.

Good luck - I won't mention the cost, I assume you know it's going to be over £100k already.

[Lakhan]

Ohh..Flybe doing part sponsorship agreement with CTC and it looks like Qatar is doing a FFP with them too.

Interesting...

[gareth08]

Peachgrove was The place to be when I was about. Staggering distance home from town! What more could you want????? These young ones today......:}

[gareth08]

I remember a small 'disturbance in the force' on Christmas day when something bad happened with some corollas. There used to be a lot of pissing and moaning about Internet connection even in Peachgrove - but even then, if you put 50 blocked together with an Internet connection, someone will 'abuse it' - and this was long before 'Skype'

Unfortunately, times have changed, when I was there cars were provided, laptops were provided, for whatever reason - they aren't now, the airline contracts aren't 'anything remotely' what they were then either - you pays yer money and takes yer choice' get experience and do what you can. This has all happened over and over again over the decades. Airlines used to sponsor cadets - I.e. absolutely no over heads whatsoever. Those days are long dead!!! Unfortunately.

[future-pilot]

Does Anyone know what is the situation at ctc in this moment? Are they sending cadets to new airlines? I have little time to choose between Oxford and Ctc, I would prefer CTC because it's cheaper than OAA, but I'd appreciate your advices. :ok:

[systematically]

CTC has a lot of hidden costs that will make it about the same or more expensive than Oxford. But don't think of the cost too much, that wont matter in the long run. Go Oxford for the quality.
People have posted in the past about the serious drop in quality at CTC, have a look some of the posts about that before deciding.

[future-pilot]

Thanks sistematically, Do you know how many flight hours are there in the CTC cadet programme? I didn't find nothing on their website.

[Stonebaked]

This for the Flybe scheme ?

[Stonebaked]

Cool, when is your assessment day? There is plenty of stuff in this thread and the Flybe thread that should help you prepare and give you an idea of what to expect. Good luck.

[systematically]

Last I saw the hours had come down to 163 (Legal minimum is 150 for integrated programme.) They were looking at how to reduce that further to save more costs so it may have come down again.
There are lots of ways to reduce the hours and still charge the same (or more). Thats why they wont tell you the hours you get.

[Stonebaked]

Its a good question for somebody to ask when they go on the second stage of the assessment.

[future-pilot]

that number(163 flight hours) is without counting the hours on the simulators, is it correct?

[pipersam]

Contrary to a previous comment, they are very upfront with the amount of hours you fly and I believe it is still 163 hours. I think total actual flight time is about 140 hours with the rest in the DA42 sims both in New Zealand and Bournemouth. (For the Wings course).

The sims are incredibly helpful and quite similar to the real aircraft. It's a huge step up going straight into IFR sim sessions after finishing your VFR flying - although great fun! They also have a Part Task Trainer which has the full G1000 suite that you're allowed to go and practise with which is helpful, and plenty of Garmin trainers on the PC's.

[future-pilot]

Thanks pipersam,
I read(studied)the whole thread and I have to say that apparently CTC offers a very good training. However I'll go to the open day the 7th of July, just to be sure that they deliver good training and then I'll choose. I've alredy done the OAA skills assessment and passed it but as soon as I heard about CTC I thought that it would be better to try for a cadet place. I'm completely aware about how is difficult to get through but I'll do my best.
Does anyone know if the security bond of 69,000£ is including VAT? I would be very grateful if someone at CTC can tell me which are all the hidden costs( a part from the security bond, foundation course, medical)

Thanks

Future-pilot in one way or another :ok:

[OMGisThatJohn]

future-pilot: There is no 'security bond', at least not with the CTC Wings course. You fund the 69 grand either out of your own pocket, or you take a loan out.

The nature of the loan is up to you and whatever bank you choose to get the loan with.

The course fee is fully inclusive bar the few items you must pay for yourself, those are listed on the CTC website and in the joining literature, and living expenses (accommodation is included.)

You'll be able to get a lot more info at the open day and selection day.

[patm92]

future-pilot, im on the wings course now. There are always hidden costs ! ! ! !

[future-pilot]

Hi patm92
Which are these hidden costs? I read thatfor what concerning the flight training if you need remedial training you don't pay.

[pilotarosa]

lets start from the license issuing fee...i assure you they are not cheap
etc etc etc.
not every fto has hidden costs...no hidden costs in FTE the price you see is what you pay and includes everything. OAA also much more transparent they tell you exactly what is not included

[greywind]

Have to agree here, there are additional costs, but I don't recall any being hidden.

[future-pilot]

I would like to know which are all these hidden costs, I'm sorry pilotarosa but OAA has MANY hidden costs, I've many friends doing the integrated training with OAA. I do know little about FTE. However CTC remains the best FTO for the moment, no way to contradict that.
Greywind are you on the wings cadet course with CTC?

[greywind]

@future-pilot I was but that was quite a while ago

[pilotarosa]

OAA has changed then since I have I have done it.
With FTE I can garantee there are no hidden cost as the price really includes everything. By everything I also mean medical renewal, all food, etc.

[greywind]

@pilotrosa fair enough, but I'm still not seeing what hidden costs there are.
You can't exactly class food as a hidden cost just because it's not included in the course price. It's not like you start training and suddenly think "Oh sh*t I need to eat"
These are things that fall outside of the course cost and need to be budgeted for but are not hidden in any way.

[future-pilot]

I found from the CTC cadet website that the funding required are:

1) Selection fee (192£)
2) Security bond (69,00£)
3) Foundation course (approximately 9,800£)
4) JAA class 1 medical fee (340£)
5) Insurance (approximately 1030£)
Finally the Type rating cost, depending on which airline. And obviously the living expenses. Hopefully the security bond and the foundation course include vat, they didn't reply to me when I asked that.

Does anyone on the course know if there are any additional costs?

Thanks

[greywind]

License issue is the only one that I can think of that is obviously not on the list.

[future-pilot]

I found that the license issue is around 340 £, is that right?

[PrestonPilot]

I thought it was £243

[Mister-Proach]

Does anyone on the course know if there are any additional costs?

Yes, I do. And no, there aren't. I'm on the course as we speak, reaching the end of the NZ phase.

You don't pay any VAT on the £69,000 because it is a 'bond' and not a 'fee'. The cost of the foundation course is including VAT - no hidden extras there, but it will vary by a few hundred pounds every time the £/$ exchange rate wobbles as the foundation phase is paid for in NZ dollars. Make sure you consider this when budgeting for NZ - it's really not cheap to live out here at the moment! :ugh:

[future-pilot]

Thank you very much!!
Is it true that if you want to fly more than the fixed 180 flight hours you can do it?
I read this on the website: Reasonable costs of additional training at the discretion
of the Head of Training (HoT).
If you're not ready for the skills test you can do more hours without paying, is that right?

[Dct_Mopas]

If you're not ready for the skills test you can do more hours without paying, is that right?

Nope, if you need to repeat a flight or two then (at least when I was in NZ) then that might be considered as a blip and won't be charged.

If you struggle and need to repeat syllabus flights then expect to be charged $$$$. I was fortunate and never had to repeat training flights but a few on my course did and ran up rather large bills which had to be cleared before moving on to the next stage of the training.

Other reasonable additional costs include transportation in NZ and the CAA licence issue fee as mentioned in earlier posts.

[future-pilot]

I tried to find out how much they charge for additional hours on the DA42 but I didn't find anything on their website. I think it's around 350 £/hour though.
Are the examiners from CTC or they came from outside? For example at OAA all the examiners are based in Oxford, and one of my friend told me that this is very helpful because you don't have to wait for the skills test.

[greywind]

It may have changed since my time but there was a provision for you to repeat some lessons at certain stages of the course, but that could well have been done away with.

As for the examiners, in NZ all examiners are in house. In Bournemouth for CPL/IR they are based at the airfield, not far from CTC and aren't exclusively CTC examiners but there was never any long waits for a skills test. Again that was a while back.

[student88]

Attending an open day is the worst way to view a flight school. Turn up on a normal day and get talking to the students who haven't been picked by the school management to deal with PR.

[Mister-Proach]

future-pilot - you may find it difficult to get any extra time on the DA42 unless you need it on a remedial basis. If you need remedial lessons before your CPL test, there is some flexibility as far as I'm aware and you probably won't have to pay for any extra. However, instructor / aircraft availability and scheduling are probably the limiting factors here. Extra time on the DA42 won't be advertised on the website because you don't need it as far as CTC are concerned - the idea is to get you through your CPL in the minimum number of hours required, so that you can head back to the UK and get stuck straight into your IR training.

student88 - nobody was 'picked' to help out at the open day when i was at Nursling a few months back - it's a voluntary thing, I volunteered because I wanted to play on the simulators. There's definitely no incentive for us to make CTC out to be something it isn't. It's worth heading to the open day to see the facilities and talk to the cadets who are all either in ground school, or have just returned from NZ.

[future-pilot]

Mister-Proach, The problem is that if I don't pass the CPL or IR skills test I do have to re-take some flights and then pay the skills tests. That's not all, if I fail a skill test, after graduation it's very hard to find a job with an airline! This is what's bothering me in this moment, so I've to be sure about everything.

Thanks for all the useful information :ok:

[student88]

MP - I wasn't aiming that specifically at you or CTC.

[leenffc]

hi guys i was just wondering how long it took CTC to get back to you after you sent off the application? thanks

[Robert G Mugabe]

"Those taking type rating courses from about April onwards this year were doing so aware that they were only going to be flying for the summer and weren't being kept on over winter"

And what will they do after?

As I said

The Greatest Social Dumping Scheme Ever.

What will the others do , you know the ones who are not "aware", when they get rostered for 20h or less over winter. I've seen it in the past.
The whole thing is rotten.
BALPA, what bunch of jokers

Taken the liberty to copy this from easyjet closing Madrid base thread.

Why do you guys persist with the " dream"?

[average-punter]

What's the point of not keeping them on over the winter?? They may aswell keep them but give them no hours, it won't cost them anything? Or am I missing the point here...

[greywind]

There's a thing called winter hours protection where flexi crew are guaranteed a minimum of 35 hours pay in a month. It's split into two 3 month periods and at the end of each if you had a month where you didn't have 35 scheduled hours you get a top up payment. So it does cost them something to not fly them.

[leenffc]

how many on everage from each class end up without a job at the end of it all? i guess i need to look into more as its alot of money to be paying back after if i have no job

[average-punter]

Ahh I didn't know that, thanks for the info!

[BlackandBrown]

You don't pay any VAT on the £69,000 because it is a 'bond' and not a 'fee

Hang on a minute, are you sure about that?

[future-pilot]

You don't pay any VAT on the £69,000 because it is a 'bond' and not a 'fee Hang on a minute, are you sure about that? It seems like that, CTC replied me yesterday and they said so. Are there any additional taxes to be paid with the security bond?

[BlackandBrown]

Can anyone from the cps 5-6 years ago confirm that we paid VAT?

[The African Dude]

Nope, it was just £60,000 of Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corp's finest.

Plus the interest, of course... :\

[Scott Duch]

Anyone else starting on the September course? Got selected for the Flybe Wings scheme; can't wait to start!

[future-pilot]

Anyone else starting on the September course? Got selected for the Flybe Wings scheme; can't wait to start! Congratulations mate!!! :ok:
I'm going to do the selection process at the end of July. I hope to start by September or November.

[Scott Duch]

Thanks mate! Really happy, still have to pinch myself ha!

Excellent mate, all the best with the selection process, hopefully you will be starting in September. :ok:

[nabanoba]

Thinking of doing the same myself Future-Pilot. Going to send in my application form after the Open Day. Fingers crossed from there!

Congrats Scott Duch, hopefully I'll be seeing you down in New Zealand!

[future-pilot]

Thinking of doing the same myself Future-Pilot. Going to send in my application form after the Open Day. Fingers crossed from there!

That's great!!:ok:
We can exchange some information about the selection process. Unfortunatly Turin airport is closed the same day that I wanted to fly in the uk for the open day, so I'm unable to come. But I'll do the selection process at the end of july. Have you decided when to do the selection?

[Matt7504]

Im due to start my ATPLs on the 28th August through CTC Takeoff (I assume Im being merged with integrated Cadets for the ATPLs) is there anyone else due to start their ATPLs on this date whether you be cadet or a modular? :)

[nabanoba]

Anyone have any advice for what to wear to the open day this weekend?

Suit or no suit?!

[Zippy Monster]

This has been asked before; the general consensus was that while it's not a great idea to turn up looking like a tramp, smart-casual should be fine. Remember it's an open day - they're meant to be impressing you, not the other way round, at this stage. And it's your money they'll be relieving you of at the end of the day.

[jhr187]

Smart casual.

[nabanoba]

Thanks lads,

I was fairly sure that's what was mentioned before. I scanned the thread but couldn't find it. Much appreciated.

[doz111]

Do any cadets have part time jobs, such as bar work or something similar on a Saturday for example, during the 5 month ground school phase? Or is the course too intense for this?

[PrestonPilot]

I'm pretty sure you are forbidden from doing any sort of work at all whilst at CTC.

[4015]

PrestonPilot is correct, you are contractually forbidden from carrying out any kind of paid work whilst enrolled on the course.

[doz111]

Thanks for your replies.

Yes I have read through my contract extensively (as I have been offered a place to start the course in the near future) and forgive me for being a touch pedantic but the exact clause you are talking about says that you are not allowed to be employed or carry out any other work during the time of your agreement "without the prior written consent of APL".

Is it the case that no one does any weekend work then because they are reluctant to ask CTC/APL for written approval of it?

I imagine it wouldn't go down greatly to ask for this anyway?

[kingofkabul]

Can't speak on behalf of the CTC course, but in general ground school is far too intense to hold down a part-time job. You will probably end up working harder on weekends than weekdays.

[jhr187]

Yes - Groundschool at CTC is tough. I don't know of anyone who would want a part time job. It'll only add to the stress!

[giggitygiggity]

You certainly wouldn't want a part time job during groundschool. The only time it would be possible would be in the gap between groundschool and new zealand, which can be upto 5 weeks. You should still (according to the contract) request permission first. But again, as others have said, the groundschool is far to intense to have time for even one day a week.

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Guys and girls,

I didn't do the cadet scheme, but I would say that the amount of study to pass the ATPLs ( and the need to get a high %age pass rate) would preclude extra-curricular responsibilities.

I would recommend waiting until you have completed Line training. That is when most of the guys I fly with are starting to think about getting part-time jobs to supplement their income to service their debts. It will also ensure that you have some income coming in when your contract is not renewed after the initial 8 months.

[nickyboy007]

Hi All,

1.) Does anyone know when CTC contract to supply pilots to easyjet is up for renewal ?
- Nearly 90% of CTC placements go to easyjet. I see this as a major threat to anyone starting the CTC programme.


2.) Now that easyjet growth is slowing will CTC be able to place as many cadets with easyjet in the years to come ?

The terms of the flexicrew has declined significantly meaning there is a over supply in the labour market.

3.) How many cadets are placed then end up back in the pool after the initial placement ?

[giggitygiggity]

1.) Does anyone know when CTC contract to supply pilots to easyjet is up for renewal ?
- Nearly 90% of CTC placements go to easyjet. I see this as a major threat to anyone starting the CTC programme. Only about 30% have gone to Easyjet in 2012 so far, the others to Qatar, Monarch and either Thomas Cook or Thompson (one of the two).


2.) Now that easyjet growth is slowing will CTC be able to place as many cadets with easyjet in the years to come ?

The terms of the flexicrew has declined significantly meaning there is a over supply in the labour market. No, but for the above reasons, demand from other partner airlines. Easy will still require pilots as there will be a continued stream of pilots moving to Dubai etc.

3.) How many cadets are placed then end up back in the pool after the initial placement ? No idea I am afraid. Email CTC but it is probably sensitive information, but I'd assume it isn't a big proportion.

[La Amistad]

Apparently the contract is up for renewal very soon. I doubt that EZY would not renew it....not sure what the terms might be though!!

Historically the vast majority of cadets have gone to EZY. With no growth over the next two years and a very small amount of people leaving then I do see this as a threat to CTC. I assume CTC see it as a threat also which is why they sold the business to the private equity firm to allow CTC to push into new markets!

I don't know the numbers but it’s not many placed this year with the other airlines. It’s a handful to each. Nothing like the volume EZY would always take. I would have thought that it was higher than 30% going to EZY. To be honest from what I hear I would have thought it was more like 30% going elsewhere than EZY???

CTC won't be able to place anywhere near as many to EZY over the next couple of years. No growth. Few command upgrades. Very few leaving. Few retiring. Beyond that who knows. But I see things slowing down markedly for CTC unless a new "customer" starts to take the same volumes in the desert or Asia.

There is an oversupply in the market. Definitely. At EZY flexi crew are flying less this summer than they did before. Still flying a reasonable amount but the flexi crew I fly with are definitely doing less than before.

Not many are returned to the hold pool. It has happened before and will happen after this summer when one course will go back to CTC. The better ones will be asked to return the following year apparently.

Add in that PARC seem to be supplying more and more to EZY also. In summary I think things are slowing down for CTC but they appear to know it and be trying to find alternative places for cadets. I would be cautious if starting now though. Not that anyone will listen mind.

[Scott Duch]

I'm starting on CP100 in September on the first Flybe Wings programme. I have been going through all the various admin things such as BBVA etc.

Have read through the joining pack it explains a lot about accomodation in the UK and what you'd expect. Just out of curiosity, what is the accomodation like whilst doing your ground school and intermediate training in the UK?

I know it's a rented, furnished and self-catering but wasn't sure if it's a complex such as university halls (I know it's not a caompus, just saying if its that type of building) but other people would be around you who aren't associated with flying or if you are in a terraced type house sharing with 4 or 5 other cadets on your course.

Any description of the type of accomodation would be perfect, cheers!

[giggitygiggity]

Houses normally of 5 people, usually a modern detached house. Only exception would be those who stayed at Ashurst Lodge (google it) but that had a swimming pool!

Our house was a standard <10 yearold detached, mixture of single rooms and doubles with some ensuites. Neighbours were a mix but nobody from CTC lived near us. Some lived in Hamble, some in Ashurst and the others in the Eastleigh area. As far as I know, there are now a few houses in Hamble that CTC rent so that is probably the biggest concentration of cadets. Same deal in Bournemouth and Clearways/Peachgrove in New Zealand.

[Bombarde]

Does anyone know if CTC cadets are eligible to have a student card? Most cards (NUS and ISIC) imply that as long as you are in full time education, that is enough. Seems like it ought to be legit but wondered if anyone had already explored this.

[Maria_stone]

I'm starting CP102 in November! Exciiiitingggg. When was your assessment day?

[giggitygiggity]

@Bombarde

I got an ISIC card from STA Travel in Southampton without any problems. In New Zealand, you can use your CTC ID anywhere and they will take it. You are not eligible for an NUS so you cant use it for discounts at home.

[Bombarde]

Excellent - many thanks.

[Matt7504]

Hey Im due to start my ATPLs with CTC this month and was wondering if anyone could tell me what the standard of housing in SOuthampton is for cadets?

[giggitygiggity]

Jesus, read the thread for god sake, I answered this question less than 5 posts ago.

[Maria_stone]

yeah cp100! we should start a facebook group!

[FANS]

Are you seriously spending the best part of £100k during such a severe recession?

People taking this kind of gamble do not have the judgement to management risk in an airline environment. Those who can afford to loose it = fair enough however.

[Cirromange]

Large numbers of Flexicrew being laid off for the winter by EZY, many with no pay. :ugh:

How do you all expect to pay back your loans with no income?

[giggitygiggity]

Ski season?

I am sure people can find some work. If I recall, the first BBVA payments are reduced and they go up afterwards a year or so. A hard worker can probably raise that money if necessary. I had 1 full time job and 2 part time jobs before starting with CTC, if you arn't fussy and can be bothered to work then it is doable (but I am not guaranteeing it will be fun).

Only a quarter to a third have gone to EZY this year according to the latest figures.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Ski season :D

[student88]

Other than the FOs who were employed on 8 month contracts, 40 flexi pilots will be grounded for the winter.

[PURPLE PITOT]

FANS, there is no risk to manage. CTC will provide all the milk and honey.

It's become a sport watching these usernames reappear in 12-18 months time asking incredulously why they have't found a job!

[vikdream]

How many ex-CTC pilots have written here they haven't been joined an airline after his graduation with CTC? I have not seen any. It might take a long time, but all of them (I am talking about cadets, not other CTC programmes) have been able fly in an airline.

I know some EZY-CTC pilots, some of them started 10 months ago. All of them are still flying for EZY.

Things are complicated. A huge amount of flexi pilots might be grounded this winter, but they will come back in the summer or CTC might include them in the hold pool again.

You might be against this programme, but it is (by far) the best programme in Europe (apart from the ones sponsored by an airline, such as the FPP, Aer Lingus, Flybe... etc). It is expensive, but other ATPL programmes are as well (even more than CTC Wings) and they don't have the employment stats that CTC have. Even if your "adventure" with the airline lasts only for 8 months, you have had time to have a TR on a A320, more than 500 h on type and you have paid more or less the same amount of money you would pay for other ATPL programmes.

I would like to pay less for my training, then start instructing for 1-2 years and gain a job in a regional airline. That would be fantastic. However, many wanabees planned it this way and, 4-5 years later, they haven't been able to proceed to the second step. Their debt is a bit lower (not much), they are unemployed (probably they are, but not flying aircrafts) and they have had no experience on jets.

I'm on CP101 by the way, if there any other cadets on CP101 here, PM me please :ok:

[PURPLE PITOT]

Vik, now that you have spelt it out with your own words, does the reality still not hit you?:ugh:

[greywind]

A huge amount of flexi pilots might be grounded this winter,

Flexi crew pilots are being grounded this winter - no might about it.

[vikdream]

The reality is that we cannot change the situation. I have been waiting for this moment since I am 12. I have a degree, PPL, decent job position within the airline industry, managed to save the 35% of what my training will cost... I am not going to sit on the chair seeing aircrafts flying over my flat despite the current economic situation...

... And I am not the only one. Obviously I don't like what's happening. Flexicrew contracts are not the best (they are actually quite bad). But what can we wanabees hope for? And we can't certainly reverse the situation, that's for sure. We might be able to change it in the future, but not now. This scheme (CTC Wings) is one of the best ways into the airlines (as I said before, apart from FPP, etc.). If after that EZY offers peanuts, it's not our fault. Someone let them do it at a certain point in the past, and it was not me or any other wanabee, that's for sure.

The reality is that many young pilots in Europe will never be on the right hand side of a jet (the majority of them I would say). It does not matter whether you start now or within 5 years time, because when I was 18 the situation was not very different. Knowing that, some of them have worked very hard to gain a place in a scheme that puts us in a better position within the airline industry (or at least, that gives us the opportunity of entering the airline industry). Don't blame us for paying 100K (it is not actually, it is 79K), don't blame us for accepting flexi crew contracts. We have no choice if we want to follow our dreams. We are not rich either, some of us have been saving every peny (euro cents in my case) we could.

I am not trying to convince anybody that CTC is the best FTO out there or that they deal with EZY is good. I am just saying that, considering the current situation, they are a very good opportunity for wanabees and, let me say this, a very fair and well-structured opportunity. Oh, and referring to one of the comments above, CTC never promised me a job or a salary of 60K a year. They were and have always been very honest.

This is my point of view, however some of you might think different. But I come from a place where FO salaries are worse than the Flexicrew contract, where the 50% of the graduated pilots are unemployed and where 60% of the FTO closed down in the past two years.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Lemmings! what do you plan to do next winter, when you are "returned to the pool", and thereafter when you have been replaced by the next lemming?

[vikdream]

What should we do, then? I haven't found any optimistic message from you and I have tried hard. You are against CTC, against the Flybe MPL... what would you do if you were a wanabee? I haven't seen a good reason why people shouldn't join CTC or other cadet programmes (a real one, I mean).

[PURPLE PITOT]

Ok, one question. Is your passion for flying, or are you so desperate for the "social admiration" that oddly is still attached to the profession?

[vikdream]

I personally love flying and the aviation sector. I have a PPL license since 2009 and I work for a Spanish major airline. I know the industry quite well and have done lots of research, talked to many pilots and visited several schools. Hope this helps :ok:

[PURPLE PITOT]

Ok, next question. Do you wish to learn the skills required to be an aviator, or are you looking for the fastest way into the wrong seat of a jet?

[The African Dude]

If after that EZY offers peanuts, it's not our fault.

:ugh:

Can't you see that once you have invested all your money in to your training they KNOW you are desperate for any chance to build hours? They have no competition when you have 200 total time. That itself is the reason why the offer crap terms. Because they know you will take them.

[vikdream]

Purple Pilot, I obviously want to learn the skills, as everybody else. But my dream is to become an airline pilot, so I am interested in the fastest way (and I don't agree people with 200 h are not ready to fly an Airbus, because obviously they are, otherwise Lufthansa, BA and Air France wouldn't have cadet programmes).

The African Dude, I will say the same. Any other solution? What can we do? However it is, you will end up paying for everything and then you will desperate for flying. That's obvious. But it is for CTC cadets. and it is (much more) for any other frozen ATPL holder.

John Smith, their selection process (apart from the ones for BA, FlyBe, Lufthansa...) is one of the most demanding ones (many many other FTOs in Europe don't even have selection processes, in Spain for instance none of them have - apart from FTE, which is British actually). They have excellent results in the ATPL exams and have the best employment stats. Tell me, why is that pathetic?

[The African Dude]

Look, vikdream, the solutions have to come from you, not me. I am merely here to pass on some experience. Whether you like what I say or not is irrelevant! The fact is, they will offer you peanuts, and they will offer it to you for a long time. If at all. Because they know you will take it. Because you are interested in the fastest way. So was I and it was a good investment for me, long-term. But not so for those a few months behind. So be careful. It is not just your short-term earnings that will be affected. Your personal life, your pension, the cumulative quality of the rest of your life relies on this gamble paying off. I am not joking when I say this. These contracts may the best you can quickly get your hands on straight out of flight school, but that doesn't mean they are good. They will set the precedent for the future terms and conditions for the rest of your career.

[flightless_bird]

For those people about to start on a Flexicrew contract, I would definitely make sure you have some other skill and therefore some other means of making money. Your life will be a whole lot less stressful if you know that were you to be stood down over the winter, you will still be able to make your loan repayments and have enough money to live. I know some might say that it's easy for me to say this but I have had first hand experience of it - there was a sizeable delay from when I finished training until when I started working and it was not fun moneywise.

[FANS]

If you are looking at going integrated on an untagged scheme, CTC is the better option BUT:

1) We have a recession that is now getting very serious and will remain so until the Euro situation is sorted one way or another.

2) Wages & T&Cs are plummeting.

3) CTC is interested in churning through new cadets not ensuring that each one has a long term future at EZY et al.

Given all of the above, I really think to embark on this scheme now is a massive risk. To those that are about to start, I ask you what would make you not embark on it - TR costs increasing to £50k?; EZY paying you nothing for 1/2/3 years?; Spain not being able to make social security payments?; I am genuinely interested at what point you would choose not to spend the £100k.

[nabanoba]

I think the tipping point might be if/when CTC stops placing it's candidates. At the moment it is the only route with a near perfect placement record.

The only reason CTC is so popular is because it places it's candidates.

[FANS]

I agree that's why CTC is a better option than other untagged, integrated schools but going back to the placement record:

What if you got placed with no pay for a 12 month contract?

What if the TR went up to £40k?


What I'm getting at is that it can always be possible to place cadets if they're cheaper than an experienced pilot or an increasing worry - the RHS represents an income rather than a cost!

[nabanoba]

I'd say people will accept working for free, it's better than pay to fly! The airline industry at the moment is so difficult to get into that people are willing to do just about anything to get time on type. If EZY were offering no money for a year I'm sure people would take it just to get their foot in that door. That is what the industry has come to.

I'm not saying it's right but that's the way the world is at the moment. I'm Irish and have a University degree. I have no chance in the world of getting a job with that degree I can't even get an interview for an internship without a masters! I predict flying will soon be no different. People will fly for free just to get a look in as they have to in most other walks in life.

[The African Dude]

I'd say people will accept working for free, it's better than pay to fly!
:eek:

I think this is on a plaque in an airline office somewhere...

[PURPLE PITOT]

Yes, in dublin!

[BerksFlyer]

(and I don't agree people with 200 h are not ready to fly an Airbus, because obviously they are, otherwise Lufthansa, BA and Air France wouldn't have cadet programmes).

But how many of the CTC untagged cadets would have made the cut for any of those airline schemes?

Not many.

[PrestonPilot]

Made the cut on an entirely staged selection day which whilst they obviously have to have some sort of selection doesn't really mean a lot once you are working for them.....
A better question would be how many of those untagged cadets can pass everything well with high grades and first time passes and therefore be suitable to fly for the airline. Nearly all of them because nearly everyone who does CTC passes the exams and licences.
Your point isn't relevant.

[Bubulle]

Only a quarter to a third have gone to EZY this year according to the latest figures.


Really??? Do you have any numbers? No doubt that CTC will be pleased to provide you the exact figure if it's the case... :ok:

[BerksFlyer]

Made the cut on an entirely staged selection day which whilst they obviously have to have some sort of selection doesn't really mean a lot once you are working for them.....

Why do they bother then?

More relevantly, perhaps, why did CTC themselves bother with a more thorough selection process back in the times of unsecured loans and bond repayments by what was a larger pool of of partner airlines (2005/2007)? It was a fantastic scheme back then. Now, not so good.

As the deal worsens, the quality of the product (those leaving/joining CTC) decreases. What was that quote on CHIRP? "Woefully undertrained". http://www.chirp.co.uk/Downloads/ATFB/ATFB101.pdf

People talking about CTC's placement record, has it not occurred to you that they continue to place people on flexicrew because it is a profit centre for them? They will continue to place people until the day when there are so many flexi FOs at easyJet that each is flying such a small amount that even the most deluded will start to shy away from signing up. I actually doubt the most deluded will ever stop signing up, though my sentiments remain.

Spain not being able to make social security payments?; I am genuinely interested at what point you would choose not to spend the £100k.

I think you overestimate the worldview of many training to be pilots at the moment. Infact, I sure hope you are, because I simply see no reason whatsoever why anyone who had any grasp of what is going on in the world at the moment, would start training on an untagged scheme.

There's nothing like just waiting a while is there? It has to be now now now, even of the outlook is absolutely awful.

[PURPLE PITOT]

They still won't get it. It's not what they want to hear.

[spider_man]

Hasn't easyjet just laid off 50 CTC Flexiscrew pilots?

Not through lack of ability, failure to pass training or reduction in pilot headcount, but simply to make way for the next CTC cadets willing to pay for a RHS job. Nice!

Where do you flexicrew pilots go with 500 hours on a320 when easyjet terminate your contract at the start of a long winter??

[PURPLE PITOT]

I reiterate my previous comment!:ugh:

[spider_man]

Which part of my post was nonsense?

That easyjet have laid off 50 flexcrew ctc pilots or, that easyjet will take on fresh ctc cadets next year who have paid £120,000 to get a job with easyjet to replace those not kept on from this year?

Perhaps you are closer to the matter to elaborate for us.

[La Amistad]

I think the reason that JS said that it is nonsense is that the airline has promised to take the cadets back on next summer. So they are "just" stood down for a few months.

I would warn people applying for the scheme to factor this in when working out future finances as I bet it happens again in winter 2013 but I know no-one will listen so why bother! Just go bankrupt like so many others! Soon sorts it all out!

P.S at least one getting returned has been with the airline for over a year! Just as you finally start to earn money.....boom! Bet that isn't in the CTC brochure!

[RoyHudd]

CTC are not crooks. They really are good folk who believe flexicrew is the way forward.

Did any of their management pay for a jot of their training? Another issue entirely, friends.

[ManUtd1999]

I thought I'd add my two cents worth to this whole CTC debate. I'm currently at uni and dreaming of becoming a pilot. If FPP is still around in a few years of course I'll apply, along with any other decent sponsored/mentored schemes. However, there's a difference between commitment and dedication to achieving your goal, and financial suicide.

If you can afford to pay for the training, good luck to you. If not and your relying on loans, is it really worth betting your or your parents house on there being a job for you that covers the bills post-training? We're in a recession and the situation in Europe is worsening. Easyjet are slowing down on growth, TCX was close to bankruptcy just last year and other CTC partners are hardly what you'd call safe. Even if you get lucky and there's a job for you, the terms are lamentable.

I'm hoping that if I'm fortunate enough to get a decent non-piloting job in the mean time, waiting for better schemes like FPP to come up will work for me. A lot can change and the jobs market could look vastly different in 2/3 years time. It would only take a few airlines to start better ab-initio schemes and CTC would start to struggle for quality applicants. If it doesn't and CTC is left as the only option, then I'm afraid I don't want it badly enough and I'll settle for a different career.

[Bealzebub]

Yet there is so much paradox in what you say.

FPP is a scheme that is conducted through Flight Training Organisations, one of which is CTC. In fact CTC through one of their own subsidary companies (APL) is charged with the administration of the sponsorship/bonding programme that underpins the scheme.

Those graduates who are now completing placements with at least one partner airline are being offered full time employment contracts which should yield around 4000+ hours of jet airliner experience over the next 5 years and a gross income (before tax) of over a quarter of a million pounds over the same period. The flying experience should (if all works out well) place those same graduates in a position to move to their respective left hand seat commands by the end of that same period.

Do you think those terms are lamentable?

FPP is a reasonable scheme, but it is a scheme arranged with one airline. There are other good schemes as well that use many of these same arrangements. You make the mistake of becoming too narrowly focused on only one part of the picture. To be fair, that part of the picture has been the biggest panorama over the last 5 years, because it is has been the only part of the picture where significant growth has occured. As the focus shifts to other partners, as well as new partners in those parts of the world earmarked for strong projected growth, so the dynamic is likely to shift.

Again I must make the point that there are no guarantees, and the risk element is substantial, but the idea that those realities are likely to change is frankly ludicrous. The airlines that have "better" ab-initio schemes, as well as those that are considering the creation and expansion of new ones, are not taking any serious risks, they are using the same established and recognised FTO's. Those organisations have geared up their infrastructure and investment to take advantage of future opportunities as and when they arise.

Everybody wants an upturn in the market. The reality is that as and when it comes, it will result in an expansion of the cadet training schemes that already exist and have prepared infrastructure to respond to that demand.

If you don't want it badly enough...(shrug)....somebody else will.

[BerksFlyer]

FPP is a reasonable scheme, but it is a scheme arranged with one airline. There are other good schemes as well that use many of these same arrangements.

You are incorrect in that there is no other scheme with the facility for a loan to be guaranteed by the mentorship airline. That is of key importance for those who do not have access to the security collateral otherwise required.

[Bealzebub]

The FPP scheme has the facilty, but the terms of the scheme encourage utilising the same loan arrangements that the partner FTO (and administrator) uses for their other partner programmes. As I pointed out, each scheme utilizes their own arrangements, and many of the constituent parts are common. The FPP scheme, is a scheme arranged with one airline.

[ManUtd1999]

FPP and CTC Wings are light years apart in what they're offering. The fact BA will back your loan and then repay it to you once you're (hopefully) employed is a massive difference if you can't afford the training costs outright.

Those graduates who are now completing placements with at least one partner airline are being offered full time employment contracts which should yield around 4000+ hours of jet airliner experience over the next 5 years and a gross income (before tax) of over a quarter of a million pounds over the same period. The flying experience should (if all works out well) place those same graduates in a position to move to their respective left hand seat commands by the end of that same period.

Do you think those terms are lamentable?
No, but there's a big if involved in all of that, it rely's on you getting very lucky. If you end up at Easyjet (the most likely option at present), you will be asked for a further £10,000 for a type-rating, you're not on a permanent contract, you're not guaranteed a minimum number of hours/salary, you have no job security. That is lamentable.

Everybody wants an upturn in the market. The reality is that as and when it comes, it will result in an expansion of the cadet training schemes that already exist and have prepared infrastructure to respond to that demand.
Hopefully some will take a look at FPP and decide to go down a similar route and not just get on the phone to CTC Wings.

If you don't want it badly enough...(shrug)....somebody else will.
Lets just hope that that 'someone else' has thought long and hard about the financial implications of it.

[davidl]

:) Hello!

I have my assessment day on the 19st september , does anyone else have the same date?

Look forward to hearing from you all!:)

[truckflyer]

I recently had the pleasure to have a sim session with a TRI from Easy, and we had a small conversation regarding the company! And he simply slammed the company for their politics with regards to new pilot hire. The direction it was going was highly undesirable.

During winter there would be FO's with hardly any money at all, all this is "promoted" by CTC in corporation with Easy!

Now this is an aspect shared also with other companies, they want pilots to pay their own TR, and come and work with them for 6 - 8 months during the summer, and than see what happens!

Now the people who fail to see the dynamics of this corporation of doom, should know, they are effectively accepting the future demise of their own profession! Unless you are a Captain, you are a commodity to be used and disposed of!

During our first 30 minutes, me and my friend, was pretty shocked by his frank and honest assessment of Easy, and it was quite opposite to what I personally thought was well run company!

You will go to these FTO's, spend around £100.000 + TR, and they will offer you a summer contract!

Now here is a good reason for not extending contracts of these summer pilots, next term CTC have a new lot of pilots that need placement, the flow must go on, because CTC needs to make money, Easy need cheap pilots, SFI's, TRI's at Easy need extra jobs, which they do for CTC and Easy, so it all adds up nicely for everybody involved, except the unlucky FO, who gets a pink slip just before Christmas! Nice......!

[Bealzebub]

Now this is an aspect shared also with other companies, they want pilots to pay their own TR, and come and work with them for 6 - 8 months during the summer, and than see what happens!
The ones who came and worked for us had their type ratings paid for. They accrued around 500 hours on type during their 6-8 month placement, during which time they received around £2000 a month and at the end of it they were offered full time employment contracts....Tragic!

Every coin has two sides.....Heads or tails?

[truckflyer]

I think it has more to do with the fact that some of the pilots in the company, "experienced ones", can see that the long term future of the profession is shaped this way, and they see it as a degradation of future T & C for all in the end.

Short term contracts, "summer contracts" is not a satisfactory option for anyone, as this gives plenty of room for abuse and degradation of overall terms.

Now from what I have understood, CTC contracts do not promise that Easy or any other company will pay the TR.

I seriously doubt Easy will pay the full TR for somebody to come and work for 6 - 8 months, that does not sound like a reasonable assumption, considering the outlay that would be for them.
Also the amounts that I have heard rumours of, are close to £1200 than £2000.

Even compared to Ryanair, that becomes an extremely bad deal, where you are looking at summer periods where you triple this pay + minimum hours guaranteed for the winter months.

I understood to everybody got offered full time contracts, because why else would union pilots within Easy not be happy with such agreements?

As he told me, you could hardly call Easy a proper airline anymore, as they are going towards the same style of employment as Ryanair and other similar companies, mainly looking to employ contract pilots.

As an example of issues involving this now, several governments in various European countries are actively investigating several pilots for tax fraud, as many since they have been "self-employed", have not been doing their paperwork properly. Also some countries require certain criteria to be met, for a person to be self-employed, and one of the criteria is that you can not operate 12 months for the same company! I know of a few Scandinavian countries looking into this, and I am sure this will come to other parts too.

Not really my problem, however I was fairly surprised by the fairly strong viewpoint, obviously from somebody very dedicated to the company, and to improve T & C's for other fellow pilots in his own company.

[Bealzebub]

I think it has more to do with the fact that some of the pilots in the company, "experienced ones", can see that the long term future of the profession is shaped this way, and they see it as a degradation of future T&C's for all in the end. They would be slow not to, since there has been an overall degradation of industry wide T&C's over the last 15 years. Working for one of the two largest European pioneers of "Low cost" air transportation your TRI would have had a good view of this evolution. When he wasn't "slamming" his company to people he had just met, and were presumably paying him for the services he was able to moonlight, as an adjunct to his employment. He would presumably have had a good understanding of the business environment he operated in.

"Low cost" imported a revolution in the way airlines operated. They imported the idea from the USA and added their own respective Irish and Greek (an irony not lost,) flavours to the formula. "Low cost" meant stripping out the fat wherever it could be found, and wherever it was allowed. Single fleet bulk aircraft purchases. Minimum airport and handling charges. Maintenance and safety was regulated. Fuel was cartel price fixed. The next big ticket item was labour costs. They studied the rule book, and played what was to become an extremely depressed labour market. They counted on the fact that "cheap as a pair of jeans" and "I might moan to high heaven but I don't care as long as I can fly for £1" would be a succesful formula......And they were right!

In parallel to what was happening in the rest of the economy, final salary pensions evaporated. Welfare provisions were either torn up or cut to the bone. Salaries were cut, or the qualifying working hours raised to effect a cut. Experience became an unnecessary commodity in the right seat, and to a greater or lesser extent in the left seat as well. The result was that these new "low cost" airlines were growth industries in the face of global recession. Not just growth industries, but profitable growth industries.

Legacy carriers from the smallest to the largest were forced to adapt their own business models to survive in the face of this competition. Some did, some didn't. The survivors were usually faced with cutting back their staff numbers, or effectively doing the same by merging and consolidating with other companies in order to survive.

Pilots (and a lot of them) were forced to either accept the new realities and seek out work where it existed, or move to the growth regions of the Middle and Far East. The writing was on the wall over a decade ago for all but the most myopic or narcoleptic of daydreamers!

Couple this with a few other realities. Retirement ages were raised during this same period by 5 and in some cases 10 years. This took pressure off the experience base in the left seat as Captains naturally took advantage of the opportunities to counter their own recession induced realities. Labour supply exponentially began to outstrip demand. Cost advantage margins began to shrink as competition caught up, and the "Lo-Co's" had to explore deeper wells to maintain the advantage essential to their own growth and long term health. Fuel, maintenance and safety was still too difficult to touch, so it was back to the old favourites.

Then we come to the bit that this forum is all about..."wanabees." Well here the news wasn't all bad. Apprentices from specific sources, were placed in the right seat as "Cadets." This became a growth industry in an environment demanding cost savings. There was no shortage of well qualified and well trained candidates, and throughout the last decade and a half, the supply has grown to such an extent, that I regularly come on here and point out just where those opportunities lie. It isn't something a lot of people want to hear, much less believe, but it remains an accurate observation of reality. There are jobs for cadets. There will be a growth in jobs for cadets as the economy improves. The infrastructure has been built and invested in, to provide for that growth.

What never fails to amaze me is that although we have been saying this here for many years. Although we have been shouting from the rooftops about the realities of this market, there are still people like yourself who simply refuse to accept these realities and seem bewildered and surprised when they are repeated. I see in your last post you stated:
Now from what I have understood, CTC contracts do not promise that Easy or any other company will pay the TR.How many times have we said that there are no promises. There simply can be no promises. These are commercial companies operating in a Capitalist economy. They only create demand when there is a need. The FTO's depend on the airlines to pass on their graduates. They have customers at both ends of the spectrum. They don't create the demand at the airline placement level, their airline partners do that. Similarly they don't set the terms and conditions for airline placements, each customer airline sets their own.

When you gave up the job with the Tigers a few years back, did you honestly believe that these very apparant, established (by then) and real evolutions in the market, were not going to affect you? Did you think that once you had aquired the cheapest route to a CPL/IR, terms and conditions would revert back to the legacy scales that were offered to pilots with ten times your experience even when they did exist? Did you think "low cost" meant everything but your labour? If you did, you were naive and ignorant, because plenty of "experienced" pilots were happy to spell out the realities to you. In any event you can take some consolation in the fact you had plenty of like minded company.

For some wanabees it is not all gloom and doom. There are areas of opportunity for those with both the wit and luck to find them. There are airline opportunities for cadets, if those aspirants are careful, well researched, and also lucky. What there aren't are guarantees, promises, or the right to gainful employment.

I have said this before (many times) but am happy to repeat it. easyjet, whatever you may think of it, was a company that kept the flow of new recruits to the airline industry running, when it had all but dried up in most other sectors of the market. These were "apprenticeships" to a number of aspirant very low experienced airline pilot wanabees. As a leading exponent of the whole "low cost" philosophy, they took advantage of the market to exploit the cost savings open to them. That might not seem very nice to you or I, but it was the very nature of the beast itself.

As other companies now come back into the market, demand might cause those T&C's to improve. Just as likely however, is that it will cause other companies to re-evalute their own potential cost savings? Supply and demand will set the market price as it usually does. Unfortunetaly, with supply potential from the "experienced" pilot market, competing with pricing at the "apprenticeship" level, I wouldn't draw any short term optimism on this score.

Truckflyer, or TigermagicJohn or whatever you call yourself this week, You need to wake up and smell the coffee! This is an industry that owes you nothing. Rather like those Tigers, it will chew you up and spit you out if you dont afford it caution, respect, and an honest acceptance of the nature of the beast. It isn't what you think it is. It isn't what you want it to be, and frankly, in many ways it never has been.

You are blinkered and narrowly focused if you believe cadets, or CTC or easyjet are to blame for this situation. You can highlight your own scapegoats, but it will make absolutely no difference to the realities.

[truckflyer]

I am not saying the industry owes me anything, I have walked into the situation with my eyes wide open!

For me, even though I am not happy with the current T & C's, I am in the fortunate situation that I have other income, so a starter "pilot salary" is not going to break my back.

You seem to be extremely obsessed with tigers, I haven't got clue of what you are speaking about!

I am just referring to your statement, that cadets was given "TR" for 6 - 8 months contract, for me that would make extremely bad business sense for Easy, and I doubt this is correct!

I know of guys who was there on £1200 a month, got their 500 hours and left Monarch!

I doubt that would have been possible if Easy had paid their TR, but you should be in better position than me to know this. But it does not fit with the rest of the business model, of giving people summer contracts only!

Don't get me wrong, there was German company who did the same, offered 6 months contract, you pay your own TR, pay was not bad actually, but no promises after those 6 months!

Everybody has to find a place, do their best and just move on if things don't go as they wish, this is the nature of the beast today!

A mate of mine, calculated he did around 500 hours on the job time a month, and it worked out an average £4 an hour incl. sector pay! (not for Easy)

Simply what CTC has done, is that they have made it a moneys game to get the chance, it will not give the best candidates, but the guys with the money will get priority, which again, nature of the beast!

This part does not concern me, but it does effect the future recruitment of pilots!

To many do not do their research properly! This is one of the main problems!

[greywind]

I know of guys who was there on £1200 a month, got their 500 hours and left Monarch!

I doubt that would have been possible if Easy had paid their TR, but you should be in better position than me to know this. But it does not fit with the rest of the business model, of giving people summer contracts only!


I am unsure of how it works for the current starters but the TR on flexi crew at the moment is part paid by you and part by EasyJet, you are then bonded for 3 years. If you leave before then you'll end up with a bill for the outstanding part of the bond - basically you pay what is left on the balance of your TR. As everyone who has left to Monarch so far has had to do.

[truckflyer]

Yes this is what I had heard too, Bealzebub claimed that Easy had paid the TR fully, which I doubt very much.

"The ones who came and worked for us had their type ratings paid for."

As you seem to know, if they come on the flexi crew, and if they only do the 6 - 8 months, what happens during those "dead months"?

Do Easy than make sure they get a few hours every now and than during the slow months, to make sure the flexi crew are "tied up" to them?

So they just can't walk away after 8 months, if they are offered no further flying during the slow periods of the season?

Do they have a minimum guarantee during these slow periods/months?

[Bealzebub]

Yes this is what I had heard too, Bealzebub claimed that Easy had paid the TR fully, which I doubt very much.

No he didn't! You may recall that you said:
Now this is an aspect shared also with other companies, they want pilots to pay their own TR, and come and work with them for 6 - 8 months during the summer, and than see what happens!

The reply was:
The ones who came and worked for us had their type ratings paid for. They accrued around 500 hours on type during their 6-8 month placement, during which time they received around £2000 a month and at the end of it they were offered full time employment contracts....Tragic!

[truckflyer]

So who paid their TR than?

Did easy pay the full TR just for the 6 - 8 months placement?

I assume placement did not assume from the outset permanent contracts!

[Bealzebub]

The placement airlines paid for them. Placement from the outset did not guarantee anything (whatever might have been assumed,) but the result was the offer of full time contracts. Obviously for the candidates this is the best possible result. The airline gets what it wants. The candidates get what they want. The FTO gets what they want.

easyjet is a different company with their own requirements. There are a number of pilots who are moving from there to companies now offering better terms and conditions. That is an option available to some of them, and that is their choice.

The FTO, in an ideal world, would want to see all of their succesful graduates move on to airline placements with the partner airlines. It would want to see those pilots achieve full time contracts at the end of their placements. This is their primary business model. Unfortunetaly it is not an ideal world, and given the obvious economic realities of the last five years, they have had to adapt their business model in order to keep some throughput in this market.
This adaption of the business model is also what many of their partner airlines (and many who are not partners) have also done to ensure survival.
In some cases the results have been far from ideal, but they were very likely the best that could be achieved in what has proved to be an incredibly difficult marketplace.

This same period has seen a backlog (holding pools) of graduates for whom placements cannot be seamlessly found. easyjet provided a relief valve for this backlog since they were one of the very few companies expanding in this market. Nevertheless that relief came at a price. With almost monopoly demand during this period, they could (and did) adjust the terms and conditions to suit their own market position. The option was (presumably) to simply say no, and buy on the open market. That would have been experienced pilots on whatever T&C's that market would stand. Some people would undoubtably have preferrred that, however a deal was achieved that clearly was a compromise for all parties, but nevertheless served to keep this route open through difficult times.

As more buyers (airlines) come back into the marketplace, so the T&C's on offer become more varied, and options become less limited. Guarantees, promises, and certainty, just doesn't exist I am afraid. It not only doesn't, it never has! There is a large element of risk. That risk needs to be understood by anybody considering assuming it.

[nabanoba]

From what I understand, Easyjet are now charging Flexicrew cadets 10,000 for their TRs.

[truckflyer]

I do agree that if TR is fully paid, the risks are in favour of the candidate. However I have also seen companies recently offering 6 - 8 months job, expecting the candidate to pay his own TR, and with no more promise than these initial 6 - 8 months.

For me this is a risky business, and I would think anyone considering it should consider these offers carefully. However as an example the CTC/Easyjet option, is not for everyone, as it does come with an extremely hefty entrance "ticket" price!

It does make it a little bit like a private "exclusive club", this is something that I personally do not like!
Yes sure you need to pass certain entry tests etc., but end of the day, money is what opens the door! This strategy is not necessary the best way forward.

In my opinion, the modular route into Ryanair is a far better economical route for the pilot, however it is a bit more uncertain, it does give the airline a large control over who they contract, and it does give a wider spectre of pilots a chance!

I have to admit, I have seen to many freshly ME/IR pilots, with rose tinted glasses, who have not really researched what they have let themselves into!

[Locarno]

Well I'm not going to sit and read through all of the previous 4200+ posts so I don't know what the general feeling to CTC is these days. I hope it's not like it used to be...

But anyone reading this here is my advice.

Do not go to to CTC.

Go modular and get the same licence you would otherwise have for a fraction of the cost.

The CTC course promises so much and delivers nothing special. Having been taken in my CTC's crap myself I've still found myself flying Ryanair a few years later down the line - and much better off for it.

Don't go to CTC. Please.


EDIT: Funnily enough, I've just reiterated the previous poster, albeit with slightly less depth.

[Ollie23]

Given how long it is I doubt anyone actually trawls through the full content of this thread anymore, however one chap summed the whole thing up perfectly not too long ago;

If you are considering CTC read this;

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a-197.html#post6707903

As someone who has been through the mill I can assure you it will be a worthwhile read.

[giggitygiggity]

I think that would be very unfair and one sided. He seems to be the fool, he says "Well, if I showed my contracts to any lawyer, they would all laugh at me for having ever signed it.", which was his choice, I think investing that amount of money and not running contracts passed the eyes of a professional would be very foolish indeed.

I felt that CTC never pressurised me into signing anything, when we received the initial offer pack which included the foundation course, basic and intermediate training contracts it stated we were required to sign and return them in a month. I didn't send mine back for nearly 3 months and there was no problem. I contacted them on a few occasions asking for clarification of certain clauses etc and they were quick to respond in writing. Obviously advanced training is dependent on whoever employs you at the end of the course (which will happen eventually if your performance is satisfactory).

Some of the points raised in transcendentals post were quite valid but it does read as that of someone who has had a rough time of it for one reason or another.

[Ollie23]

Was pretty much spot on from my experience and I wouldn't say I had a rougher time of it than anyone else or have any personal axe to grind.

I think it serves as a much needed reality check that's all.

[giggitygiggity]

Fair enough, just to reiterate, get a professional to look over the contracts before you sign your life away, especially if you have borrowed the money from a bank.

[rod_1986]

The post linked to above (by transcendental) is probably the most honest, reasonable, true-to-life account of CTC I've read on here. As an ex-cadet, I think that any guys thinking not just about the CTC schemes but about any flying training would do well to take heed.

[yannisfr]

Guys, how long is the full program with CTC? (AQC included)
I read here and there 14 months, 15, 16, 18....!

Is there any delay before beginning AQC or is it straight after IR?

[MatthewMarshall]

Well I'm not going to sit and read through all of the previous 4200+ posts so I don't know what the general feeling to CTC is these days. I hope it's not like it used to be...

But anyone reading this here is my advice.

Do not go to to CTC.

Go modular and get the same licence you would otherwise have for a fraction of the cost.

The CTC course promises so much and delivers nothing special. Having been taken in my CTC's crap myself I've still found myself flying Ryanair a few years later down the line - and much better off for it.

Don't go to CTC. Please.


EDIT: Funnily enough, I've just reiterated the previous poster, albeit with slightly less depth.

I don't really think that this is a fair comment to make, firstly did you ever go to CTC? Secondly, not only are you paying for the course you are paying for the 100% placement rate that CTC have up-held over the years, to me this was worth alot more money than going modular.

[Dct_Mopas]

Secondly, not only are you paying for the course you are paying for the 100% placement rate that CTC have up-held over the years, to me this was worth alot more money than going modular.

A 100% placement record, technically yes. In real life this is utter rubbish.

This statistic ignores those who were dropped at various stages of training. From the first few training flights right upto line training with the airline. The proportion of failures has only increased with less of an emphasis on ability and more on whether you have the finances available (not to take anything away from those coming through the system now, still lots of decent people just an ever increasing trend in the wrong direction).

It also ignores those who were plain unlucky and fell ill or were injured. A number never finished the relevant stage of the course/ type rating and have been left high and dry.

Finally are we really saying that paying for your own type rating (which you do at easyJet no matter which way you try to spin it) and then working for 8 months for practically nothing before being dropped is a successful placement by CTC?

Honestly how they continue to maintain such a lie is embarrassing for anybody who's ever been involved with CTC. Myself included!

Rant over, in balance I found the course to be excellent (ignoring nursling) but it is what it is. An expensive zero to hero course with diminishing returns for those who make it all the way through. And its only going to get worse for those starting out now.

[future-pilot]

It's really hard for me at this point to make a good decision. As I previously said I'm considering many options, one of which is CTC wings cadet, the alternative is OAA. I've also considered many other options but I've heard from many pilots that these two schools offer the best training and the best employment statistics.

OAA has many problems now, one of which is that it's been bought by CAE which has changed everything. I visited many times OAA and I've always saw a good environment, but when I went back in August there were many students unhappy with the management. One of which is waiting for a job for one and a half year and he's not the only one! The thing is that OAA keeps saying to have 100% employment rate (and we do know that it's not true). The cost is £89,000 :eek:, the positive fact is that they pay for extra training and skill tests retake.

I can't give an opinion about CTC, but I've read the whole thread and I don't have a good feeling about this flight training organization. It's however the most discussed since many students from CTC find a job in approximately six months time.

My reply is not aiming to confuse people on what to do but to receive as many opinions as possible by professional people.
I know that flexicrew is a bad contract but this is a situation from which, in my opinion, we cannot escape. Moreover while you are a flexicrew you don't earn very well. Salary is one of the aspects which I didn't look at first, but when you consider to borrow money and you don't have money to pay back here you understand the value of a good salary.

Thanks, and sorry for my english.

[magicmick]

It’s very true that there are lies, damned lies and then statistics, any statistic can be made to say anything that you want it to. 100% placement for CTC Wings cadets, try telling that to those who have been sat in holding pools since finishing their courses, unpaid waiting for placement with loan repayments approaching fast. Equally try telling the same thing to those that were placed for 8 months and were released, again now unpaid with loan repayments to service.

One thing to consider is that if you start today with CTC or OAA then you will qualify in about 18 months time, what will the recruitment/ placement situation be like then? If you know the answer to that one then please tell us, in the past Thomson have recruited their cadets from CTC but we are now hearing that the Company Council in Thomson have negotiated a deal where future cadet recruitment will be open to all with an MEIR regardless of where and how they trained. This is one less place for CTC to place their graduates, will other airlines that take CTC/ OAA cadets also employ a similar policy? Again no-one knows but an awful lot can change in the 18 months or so that you will be training and are you willing to gamble your property or the property of someone close to you to secure a loan for that gamble? It would seem like an insanely foolish risk to me, paradoxically pilots are supposed to be excellent decision makers who avoid risk but in order to qualify they have to make a huge risk and some very risky decisions.

Honestly CTC/OAA/FTE are great if you’re on a mentored scheme backed by an airline with the chance of a job at the end of it, otherwise in the current global financial and employment situation I would save my money.

By the way future-pilot, these comments are not just directed at you personally but at anyone considering their options and your English is very good.

[vikdream]

From what I understand, Thomson are not cancelling their contract with CTC, just offering better conditions. At the end of the day, it is CTC that pays for the cadets' salary (actually, the cadet pays for his own salary, as it comes from the "security bond"). I don't think Thomson are interested in paying for a salary + pension + benefits (as they are now offering) + TR for a 8 months contract.

[magicmick]

My understanding is that the next time Thomson recruit low hrs cadets the application will be open to anyone with CPL MEIR and medical regardless of where they trained and whether they're integrated or modular. This is different from recent years when all low hrs cadets were CTC Wings graduates. By doing this Thomson have reduced the number of cadet places that used to be CTC only, of course CTC Wings graduates can apply but hopefully they'll be competing in open and fair competition with other integrated cadets from different schools and also modular graduates. The biggest selling point and major justification for the extra expense of n integrated school is that their graduates can get access to cadet schemes that their modular colleagues cannot get access to. The standard of training at an integrated school is no better (or worse) than at a modular school and you get exactly the same licence at the end of it. One less cadet scheme exclusively for integrated cadets levels the playing field for everyone else and erodes the biggest advanage of the integrated course. If other airlines follow Thomsons lead and open up cadet entry to integrated and modular fair competition there will come a time when integrated has no advantage (real or perceived) over modular and that will be a very dangeous time for the integrated schools who will have to rely more on their modular courses that they offer.

[davidl]

Hello!

I have my assessment day on the 19st september , does anyone else have the same date?

Look forward to hearing from you all!:)

[StevieW]

From what I understand, Thomson are not cancelling their contract with CTC, just offering better conditions.

I don't believe CTC and Thomson ever had a 'contract', Thomson simply took CTC cadets because they needed crew as soon as possible and CTC had a few in the hold pool. They were interviewed on the Thursday/Friday and started type rating the following Monday.

[fcooper94]

I am Starting CTC next Week, their 100% placement record is the main reason I am choosing them. As for what others said about its becuase they drop cadets during training.

CTC have only dropped a handfull of cadets during training, and they have mostly not been performance related, more because they been drinking and not being focused at all.

[La Amistad]

That's rather a bold statement to make as fact when you clearly are not in possession of the facts at all. Good luck with believing everything you are told as the truth. Clearly you don't bother to check these "facts" independently.

Another lamb to the slaughter. I used to pity you all but now I just think so many are beyond help.

Before I go "placed" does not actually mean employed or paid.

Enjoy the course.

[greywind]

fcooper94 - agree with La armisted here, a very bold statement to make. In my time at CTC I think the people who didn't complete things because of performance issues out numbered those who didn't complete for other reasons.

[Dct_Mopas]

Its also become a fact that quite a few reaching the line with the orange airline have been dropped for performance issues. In my observation more people failed during line training than during the actual wings course.

But hey ho, whatever personal experiences we've had should be ignored if CTC state otherwise. Its not as if they're after your money is it?

[BerksFlyer]

Its also become a fact that quite a few reaching the line with the orange airline have been dropped for performance issues. In my observation more people failed during line training than during the actual wings course.

What a horrendously sorry state of affairs. I feel sorry for the Training Captains having to put up with it.

Just goes to show that the standards have dropped significantly compared to CTC Wings of old. Not everyone is cut out for it but if you've got the dosh, you'll be able to take a shot nowadays...

[FlexPower]

I don't really think that this is a fair comment to make, firstly did you ever go to CTC? Secondly, not only are you paying for the course you are paying for the 100% placement rate that CTC have up-held over the years, to me this was worth alot more money than going modular.

Despite the causal glance that I take on PPrune now and then, it has been many years since I have bothered to post, yet the continued growth of Flexicrew and those who sign up without proper research and financial planning is so infuriating that I have decided to add to the debate if only to stop on naive individual from financial ruin and the continued destruction of the industry.

CTC Propaganda: "WE HAVE 100% PLACEMENT" is CTC SMOKE AND MIRRORS!!!
When I joined the wings scheme I was fortunate to be able to take out the unsecured loan and then go into full employment on a seniority list. When I graduated the above statement was accurate. Under the old Wings scheme all cadets had been placed in full employment with an airline, on full terms, with a pension, seniority and a career path. Now you will NOT be employed. You will have a contract and will be dispensed with at the drop of a hat (that you have to pay for). You will have no seniority, no pension, no employment rights, no career path and not even a stable base. You may get "placed in a jet and pay to fly it" but this is not a job! You will have to be able to pay your bills and your loan (£1000/month) and its no secret that more than one Flexicrew cadet has gone bankrupt!

I was an avocate of CTC and would have recommended them to anyone. When I signed up CTC was a champion of those who were unable to afford training. Anyone with the right aptitude and skill set could apply, get the finance and become a pilot - with sensible financial risk. I was lucky and I'm sorry for you guys that the industry has changed to the way it has.

Now they are are an immoral bunch of "chaps ;)" who should be embarrassed about asking for 100K+. They know that when you combine your loan repayments with the cost of living you will be crippled, but they do it anyway! You WILL want to save for things like a house deposit... no chance, private pension... no chance.... children's education... nice wedding... holidays etc no chance. These may not seen important and very boring now, but in five years I have gone from none of those being relevant... to almost all of them! You will not be able to raise the 10-15% deposit required for a mortgage these days under Flexicrew, I can assure you.

For those who say its the dream and I must do it. Well it was my dream to, but even in the days of easy finance I still sat down and did the maths! Its not a complex sum to do. I was lucky with my timing, If I was sat down now doing the maths I could not be a pilot. I could not have raised the money for my training, my parents couldn't and neither would I put their house at risk! As for the dream.... delay it to start with, go to University and get into full time position in something else you enjoy. Then save and see where the land lies five years down the line! Wait for another BA FPP or Flybe. If this keeps going it is only a matter of time until Flexicrew Captains become the norm and when that happens the career path is over, forever! If that happens you will be financially limited for the rest of your career and into retirement. The said fact is that already legacy airlines T&C's are being hammered. Partly due to current climate but also to keep there prices in line with low cost! Soon there will be nowhere for the Flexicrew pilot to run!

As far as I can tell the Flexicrew systems allows CTC to train as many pilots as they like and EZY to keep on taking them. The supply and demand system does not matter now!

On a traditional salary system the airline has to employ the minimum number of pilots and work them to the max, in order to be cost efficient. In FC since you have no salary and will be paid by the hour, the situation is reversed. For maximum flexibly the airline can take on as many pilots and even be over crewed. They don't pay a penny (almost) unless you fly. CTC can therefore train as many people as they like and "place then all" and all the training is payed for upfront by the cadet! Everyone is a winner... apart from the cadet.

I am sorry to the individual who I have quoted and singled out. I guessed you were a newbie at 18 with few posts and looking to train. I would not want to put you off training altogether, I love the job and I appreciate there are few options at the moment. But do not go to CTC just because they place you. I went for that reason, but times have changed and unlike when I went the finances add up - unless you are rich or have rich parents!

Maybe go modular and go to somewhere like Qatar. Dare I say it would Ryanair be better!?! :ugh:

Someone earlier said "why is everyone so negative, it used to be a positive place" well really sorry but its the reality of the situation. I only ask that you do your research and do not jump in at any cost! If you go to flight training events or open days ask CTC the right questions. Not stupid stuff like whats the accommodation like in NZ or what nice aircraft you have, will I fly that. You should be asking when do the loan repayments kick in? how much will they be? is there a contracted minimum number of hours I will fly on FC? how much per hour? put CTC on the spot and ask the tough questions!

[SA242]

Flexpower has hit the nail on the head. I did CTC before things went down the pan and looking at the state of some new cadets now, most would be better off financially stacking shelves in tesco (especially in winter). CTC today does not remotely resemble the company it was when I went through. Obviously I was lucky that my timing was right but I wouldn't touch them now. Better off doing a modular course and heading into Africa for a bit on light turbo props before heading to Qatar etc. You would be much better off in the short, medium and long term.

[Piloto2011]

Someone in the know to put a number on CTC grads failing their line training with eJ?

[Lindsayn100]

I have my selection in 2 weeks and was wondering if someone who has recently been through selection can confirm if the maths test is multiple choice or not?

[nabanoba]

Yes, it's multiple choice. 3 options to choose between. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me.

[yannisfr]

Hi Guys, anyone attended the CTC Open day today?
Any fresh news ? Holding pool level? Any new partnership?
:D

[EZY_FR]

yannisfr

No new airlines, but they just opened up a new A320 flight simulator last week which I had a go at. Information gathered today was invaluable for preparations for selection processes in the future (it was for me anyway).
BA presentation was really good, enjoyed that.

[yannisfr]

Thanks EZY, so no news on the holding pool, or nothing really new that could be encouraging for the futur?

[EZY_FR]

I never asked about the holding pool as I was really focusing on asking about the BA FPP scheme. They had the usual "we have a close to 100% chance of getting a job after graduating from CTC" marketing speech which I wasn't fooled by. BA said that the FPP will be run annually which can only be a positive. The a320 simulator was brilliant btw.

[yannisfr]

You are right, marketing... I think they placed a little bit more than 100 this year
I think they had previously 2 737 sims and 1 A320, so now 2 A320 sims. Love the A320!
I don't know why they increased the number of cadets in each CP since april, are they expecting a high demand or just expecting more flexis :ugh:

[EZY_FR]

I believe they now have 5 simulators overall, with three 737s (-700, -500 & the -800 I believe?) and two A320s.
Apparently there was unprecedented demand for the open day (probably down to BA's appearance), but it was still brilliant nonetheless as I gained invaluable information for my preparations.

[yannisfr]

BA is THE event out there!

Good luck mate for your prep, all the best!

[EZY_FR]

There is absolutely no doubt about that! Good luck to you too if you decide to apply for the FPP. It was great speaking to so many like-minded people.

[119.35]

Haven't read this thread for a bit but was surprised to see someone go to the trouble of laying bare the flexicrew deal - well done FlexPower.

And then within 3 posts someone is asking whether the CTC Maths test is multiple choice and a few more later, adulation about how impressive the new A320 sim is! Priceless!

Lambs to the slaughter.

When do EZ take delivery of their last airframe by the way? And for that matter, FR??

[PrestonPilot]

Hi,

Does anyone know the best way to pay $21,000NZD for the foundation course?

It should be around £10,600 at the current exchange rate but even xe.com which claims to be "much better than the banks" quotes £13,559 to get $21,000NZD.....which I wasn't expecting at all. The post office can do a moneygram for £11,200 +£400 fees.....which still isn't great.
I'm waiting on a a quote from hifx......
Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks

[future-pilot]

The Foundation Course is delivered by CTC Aviation Training (NZ) Limited and the price is currently NZ$33,900 (Approximately £17,000).
You are required to pay this prior to commencement of your flight training in New Zealand. Any unused flying hours during the Foundation Course will be repaid to you pro-rata.

NZ$ 21,000 was the old price!!! :ugh:

[nabanoba]

119.35

I agree wholeheartedly with FlexPower's post and think that it should be read by everyone thinking of training at CTC.

However you must realise that there aren't many options out there at the moment. Some people have spent years researching where to train and decided that CTC is the place. Everyone has different needs, goals and backgrounds and for some CTC is the best option.

Personally I would love to go the modular route, get experience in different countries and then build up my hours bush flying. But this isn't an option for me because I don't have the finance. For me with my finances, qualifications, needs and wants I think CTC is the best place to train. This doesn't mean it's the best place for everyone, but it is for me.

[PrestonPilot]

thank you for your concern future pilot however i am already on the course and the price is $21,000NZD (which is the price I signed up for)....I have to pay it very soon.

[Highland Kilt]

It should be around £10,600 at the current exchange rate but even xe.com which claims to be "much better than the banks" quotes £13,559 to get $21,000NZD.....which I wasn't expecting at all.

i am already on the course and the price is $21,000NZD (which is the price I signed up for)....I have to pay it very soon.


Did you not think to research this sort of thing???

Lambs to the slaughter:ugh:

[giggitygiggity]

PrestonPilot, I cant recommend Currency Conversion and Exchange Rates | Transfer Money with UKForex (http://www.ukforex.co.uk) enough. Totally reliable and quick, couldn't find it cheaper anywhere else. I used the Post Office for my initial transfer but whilst I was out in NZ I used ukforex for any additional requirements.

[PrestonPilot]

Highland Kilt,

this is exactly what i'm doing isn't it?????????
thanks giggitygiggity, think i'm going with hifx since their exchange rate is less than £100 more than the real exchange rate.

[Robert G Mugabe]

BAAAA BAAAAA BAAAA BAAAA

Lambs to the slaughter how ironic your initial flying is in the land of the lamb.

[Highland Kilt]

i am already on the course

So I suppose you'll be doing some research into the pitiful amount of money you'll be taking home on Flexicrew a couple of days before you start your type rating!?

[BlackandBrown]

Just as a point of interest the 'foundation course' when I did it 6 years ago was about £4000 - it's a PPL basically. And now they're charging 33000 NZD?!!?!?! Are you mental. IT'S A PPL!!!!! EDIT: I see that it includes the ATPLs now which it didn't back then - £2140 at BGS as an individual!

Look at the rate it's increasing - from someone currently on the course it's 21000 NZD and someone enquiring now its 33000 NZD. Before we jump to unfair conclusions, what has changed? I'm only quoting whats been said here. No matter how much I wanted to train I could not accept that.

As for the course prices and exchange rates - ours were all agreed and paid in GBP. They are taking advantage of the strong NZD too I see - at your expense.

[PrestonPilot]

highland kilt, you are what is wrong with this forum.
I know the deal yes, flexicrew is the likely deal but a friend of mine in the hold pool has just got monarch full contract and others got qatar back in May. I know that isn't likely but flexicrew will work out fine for me as a starting place.
Yes it doesn't work for everyone but you have no clue about anything about me or my financial situation.
thanks again for your concern though.

[StevieW]

Anybody starting at CTC now that is unattached to an airline is going to be sitting in a hold pool for a very, very, VERY long time.

[future-pilot]

Anybody starting at CTC now that is unattached to an airline is going to be sitting in a hold pool for a very, very, VERY long time.

May I ask you how do you know that?

Thanks

[PURPLE PITOT]

Because there are no jobs!

[future-pilot]

PURPLE PILOT read the question again, please.

[PURPLE PITOT]

I read it well enough the first time. Read my name again!

[Bealzebub]

Because there are no jobs!
That will come as a surprise to the 21 cadets one airine took on last year. Most of that group didn't have time to take a breath between finishing their AQC courses and starting their airline paid Type ratings on the Monday morning. They have now been offered and accepted full time employment contracts on a seamless basis.

In addition 24 new cadets are starting type rating training (also paid by the airline) in the new year. Although that is when the warranty on my crystal ball expires, I understand the plans are to continue much in the same vein for the forseeable future.

So it isn't a case of "there are no jobs" because clearly there are! It is a case of being in the right place at the right time when those jobs arise. Timing is a very difficult thing to predict, but being in the right place has more of a skill element to it.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Ok, i'll accept that (allowing for your connection with a training provider!). Thats 45 places. How many "cadets", or newbie CPL/IRs qualified in the same time period, best part of 1000.

Not a bad gamle with £100k of your parents money.

[Bealzebub]

No, newbie "CPL/IR's" are not generally "cadets" until they are placed on a relevant cadet programme. "best part of a 1000" I don't have precise numbers, but I understood it to be around 20- 24 every couple of months. That would be about 260 "ish" annually? That makes the odds look a bit prettier I guess. Not forgetting, this is just one employer being considered. There are a few, all of whom have differing requirements and offer different terms.

(allowing for your connection with a training provider!). Presumably, you mean the airlines connection?

Not a bad gamle with £100k of your parents money.
Of the loan repayment schedules that have been shown to me by the cadets themselves, I have yet to see one anywhere near that figure. The average has been closer to the £80,000 mark, with total course costs (living etc. around £85,000.) Of course this is when (as in this example) there are no type rating costs for the candidate, which would then add another sizeable chunk.

Of the above sums, around 10% was repaid to the placed cadet in cash for subsistance support (over and above what the airline paid by way of allowances,) for the placement period. The base salary (excluding allowances and overtime) for those cadets now on full time employment contracts, represents about 23 months earnings. That should enable the debt to be sensibly repaid in around 5-7 years on tax advantageous terms.

Yes, it is a gamble, and yes these are still eyewatering sums of money. However if you want to be "in the right place," you could make significantly worse choices!

[PURPLE PITOT]

Apples and oranges then. If i understand correctly, your definition of a "cadet" is someone on a tagged airline integrated course.

I completely agree that in the current market, that is the best route to an "airline career".

Using your figures, that still leaves 80%+ of the sausage factory students with no jobs, never mind the other CPL/IRs qualified by other means.

[Bealzebub]

Apples and oranges then. If i understand correctly, your definition of a "cadet" is someone on a tagged airline integrated course.
No, that isn't my definition. I understand "tagged" to mean that those cadets have been pre-selected for placement/employment prior to, or during a course of training. Many of the "wings cadets" at CTC have no idea of their placement (which in itself may change,) until the completion of their basic course. As placements are in the gift of the customer airline, the number of such placements is dynamic. If those numbers are low, then there may be significant delays in obtaining that portion of the advanced training. Further, there is absolutely no guarantee of employment with a particular customer airline dovetailing from any such placements.

I completely agree that in the current market, that is the best route to an "airline career". Yes. I think love it or hate it, for all the strengths and weaknesses, it is still the best route in the current market and for the forseeable future.

Using your figures, that still leaves 80%+ of the sausage factory students with no jobs, never mind the other CPL/IRs qualified by other means.

No it doesn't. I have given a one airline snapshot. There are other airlines and I don't have their figures. However, it seems that most of the students who succesfully complete this particular programme, do obtain placements that allow them to complete their advanced training on a commercial flight deck, together with around 500 hours of type experience. Many seem to find that employment does indeed dovetail from these placements, (on terms that span a wide spectrum from excellent to poor.) British airways have students at this school as part of their FPP programme. Monarch airlines have students there as part of their MPL programme. Other airlines have taken students from the wings programme into employment. I don't have figures to offer, but I would very surprised if the numbers of succesful graduates (from the wings cadet programme,) not offered placements within a reasonable timeframe, was significant at all.

The subject of this rather long thread is quite specific. What happens to other "qualified" CPL/IR's is beyond the remit of this specific thread, and there are a great many other threads devoted to the many facets of that discussion.

[La Amistad]

It depends on what's a reasonable wait. It's now about 18 months to 2 years. There is a large hold pool at the moment.

The key is that they are on placements, not employed. The guys I fly with are all 100K plus in debt by the time they are done. Far above 80K.

Be under no illusions, it's the "best" route into the industry but its a long hard one. Please don't think of it as a nice little placement, 500 hours and a job.

I fly with cadets unable to eat. Run their central heating. Get married. Buy a house.

There is a large and growing hold pool. A vastly reduced number of "jobs" available. Do the course by all means but plan for several years of hardship from start to finish.

[pipersam]

Whats your source of info regarding the hold pool size and, seriously, 18-24 months?

[Bealzebub]

A point to bear in mind is that "holding pools" are tidal in nature. By that I mean, most airlines are highly seasonal in their training programmes. Airline pilots are very demanding on training resources. Established pilots usually tie up around 8 hours of simulator time each (16 hours per rostered pair) per annum. Add recurrent ground training, line checks, and command training to the mix, and it comes to a sizeable training commitment.

New induction training, places a heavy burden on the available training tracks. For cadets this is especially so. This is why such training is concentrated in the airlines low season, usually the period November to April, although there is often overspill.

This means that placement opportunities tend to be programmed in the Winter and Spring, with significantly lower demand at other times of the year. It follows that an intermediate training course ending in the Autumn, is going to be much better placed (all other things being equal,) than one finishing in Winter Spring or Summer, when the resultant wait time may well be longer.

I am aware of placements being offered to graduates who have completed their courses this year, so a "hold pool of 18-24 months" seems highly unlikely. However given the tidal nature of recruitment and the commercial demands of the airline customers, such things should never be dismissed. In the past few years there have been waiting times for placements of anything between zero and over 12 months.

[Robert G Mugabe]

I am aware of placements being offered to graduates who have completed their courses this year, so a "hold pool of 18-24 months" seems highly unlikely. However given the tidal nature of recruitment and the commercial demands of the airline customers, such things should never be dismissed. In the past few years there have been waiting times for placements of anything between zero and over 12 months.

I am sure you are also aware that the latest offers ( in orange land ) were seasonal. I know of a couple of flexicrew "enjoying" a winter sabbatical. November to March off. A promise of re-employment in a base subject to company requirement. So we now have a flexible and migratory workforce.

I personally would not consider entering the commercial flying world at the moment. The numbers do not stack up.

Bealzebub is glass half full. I am glass half empty.

You should also be aware that the orange lot have also offered unpaid leave over the winter months to their employees. Not allowed over Christmas period though. So we are overcrewed in winter. Combine this with very limited expansion and you can surely see that command and employment opportunities will start to dry up. This is in one of the most profitable airlines in Europe.

So Wanabees " Take your chances "

[PLINKY DEL MAYO]

For those that don't do the proper research it seems to sum up the situation quite nicely.

like a lamb to the slaughter

something that you say about someone who does something or goes somewhere calmly and happily, not knowing that something unpleasant is going to happen to them.

Please do your research before you hand your cash over:ok:

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

No one wishes anyone to be shelf stacking, trying to repay over £1000 a month in loan repayments. That's why people in the know are on here trying to warn potential customers of the FTO's to be very careful before spending all that money.

easyJet, CTC's biggest customer for cadet/low hours pilots for many years, just laid off 45 odd cadets this winter. Not good, not when they're all the lowest experienced pilots in the company with limited other options. We are not expanding, very few commands next year in the grand scheme of things. Not much attrition, a relatively young workforce, fast commands are a thing of the past. It's not exactly a positive outlook here at the moment for cadets.

I believe CTC are owned by a private equity group now? How do we think this will impact the requirement for them to keep the courses ticking over ( keeping the money rolling in ) without regards to the job available once the students plunge into the holding pool? Something to think about.

It's a lot of money to spend and you don't get it back so be very careful about weighing up the risks. Cadets have gone bankrupt in the past unable to service their debts. Don't let that be you...especially when it's your parents house as collateral.

[PrestonPilot]

This thread gets old fast.
Please do your research? You do research and you get your head bitten off for trying to do research.

[flickroller]

Hi does anybody know if there is accommodation available for couples in both the UK and in New Zealand. Is it a common thing to live with partners?

[pipersam]

CTC can accommodate your partner, there are fee's associated which they can tell you if you contact them.

When I was out there, there were roughly 4-5 students that had their partner out there for either the whole, or majority, of the time.

[flickroller]

Great! Thanks for that information!

[mr1862]

I'm a current student at CTC (ground school) and would just like to voice my impression so far...

I am disappointed. Very disappointed, actually.

Considering the amount of money I have paid, there has been a major shortfall in many aspects from administration to the actual teaching itself.

To begin with, the accommodation myself and my colleagues have been placed in is very far from the school (>20km) in an area that literally has nothing around it with a bus to Southampton central costing me £6 and taking an hour. For non-drivers like myself, this has placed me extremely demotivated and unhappy with unnecessary expenses that I honestly did not foresee. I often have to walk a mile just to get to a small supermarket. Southampton has an abundance of accommodation at very reasonable prices (esp. compared to London) and when you consider the amount of money we are throwing at CTC, this is disappointing. There are other intakes who are much closer to the school, but when approaching management, I was indirectly told that 'we can't please everyone' and that 'just bear with it for only 5 months and then you'll be able to relax in NZ'. BS.

The teaching has also been disappointing. Despite the 9-5 intensive approach we were told to expect (due to finishing a 12 month course in 5 months), this has never happened. In fact, as I write this, I have been on a 2.5 hour lunch and regularly have 45min tea breaks too. This results in me having to learn extra in my own time BUT with an hour commuting to-and-from my accommodation every day, squeezing in a gym workout wherever I can, it's even more difficult.

I have also heard from students who are currently in New Zealand, that they only find out if they're going to be flying the next day at 4pm the day before. Some students have said that they have been up to TWO WEEKS waiting for their next training flight and only finding out only at 4pm every day. Therefore, time where they could've done their own thing or, even better, reduced the amount of time overall in NZ, is literally sent down the sink. Plus the personal expenses they need to spend every day (food, etc) it all adds up unnecessarily. Apparently, the instructors are also upset about this as even THEY believe this is very poorly managed and could easily be avoided with better planning (and no, it has nothing to do with weather, it's just bad management). This is probably a direct result of the numbers game that CTC plays these days with the massive churning of $tud€nt$ and inability to accommodate them all. It's only £100k after all.

So yes. This morning I have already picked up my 20 page contract and looking into 'Termination of Agreement' and what my rights are. Sad, but true. Hopefully it won't lead to that, but at the moment, given the impression and attention I've had so far, it might just have to be a 10k first installment I'll just have to painfully write off and kick myself for stupidly spending.

And I'm still waiting for my lecture to get back from his "30min admin task"...Oops he just walked in (2h55min later)

[Bealzebub]

Mr1862,

Take a deep breath, and remind yourself why you are there. A couple of years ago, I followed the progress of a group of students who were all exactly in the same position as yourself. Almost all of that group are now flying as first officers on modern jets for a Uk airline on full time permanent contracts of employment.

This is a 15 month training commitment that by its very nature needs to maintain a fairly strict timetable. Whilst it might be very frustrating that there needs to be flexibility to achieve those timetabled constraints, you only have to look at the training footprints that are available to you, to see that the majority of students do complete the requisite stages in the times allocated.

The accommodation that I saw, all seemed to be adequate private housing sourced from private landlords. This accomodation was shared on the basis of a private bedroom for each student. That accommodation seemed to be in surrounding areas up to a radius of about 15 miles. Not every student had access to their own vehicle, but it did seem that an effort was made to put somebody (often more than one,) with a vehicle in each house, and it was up to the group to sort out there own arrangements on that basis. I don't think that was always a convenient arrangement, but it seemed to work out more often than not. Perhaps an early introduction into the art of CRM?

In New Zealand the students were accommodated in clearways a group of purpose built single story blocks, with individual bedrooms and en-suite shower rooms, together with shared kitchen, gym and lounge facilities. Day to day transport was largely satisfied by small groups buying some of the oldest and highest mileage cars know to man, and sharing them between small groups of themselves. The students were there for about 7 months and the flying programme was subject to constant modification in order to allow for weather, instructor availability, and keeping each group at broadly the same level. Sometimes this involves flying every day, and sometimes many days can pass with no rostered flying at all. Flying aside, there are ground lectures and briefings that require airport attendance. Most students do complete all the requisite stages and examinations within this planned period. The following days flying programme was usually released the preceding day at around 4pm, and seemed to be eagerly anticipated. Students did have a timetable that provided for days off, so despite the programme it is possible to plan for personal recreation.

Flying by its very nature can be easily disrupted (just ask any airline pilot!) A programme flown may have very little relation to that notified at the planning stage. If you are expecting little disruption, then you are not only going to be very disappointed by the training, but you are going to be extremely disappointed by the reality of the career you have chosen!

Going back to the group I followed. I am sure there were times they felt fed up and dejected. However that was far outweighed by passing the ATPL writtens. Flying out to New Zealand. The first solo (where applicable.) Passing the staged flying tests. Passing the CPL flight test. Coming back to the UK and (back into rented accomodation) passing the Instrument rating test. Completing the AQC. Starting that first morning with the airline back in groundschool. The first simulator excercise in the full motion simulator. The first circuit in the real thing. The first day with 200 passengers sat behind you.

For this particular group they achieved all of that not 18 months from where you are now. A lot of friendships were forged, many of which are likely to become life long friendships. Most of them are still sharing houses only now they pay the rental costs directly themselves. They also all have their own cars.

So as I said at the beginning take a deep breath and remind yourself why you are there. Nothing you have written seems out of the ordinary, or at variance with what I have seen for myself. Nothing seems out of the ordinary if you transpose it to an airline environment.

If the accommodation was leaking and riddled with mold, or the training was not being provided, I would have some sympathy. Enjoy your long lunches and tea breaks, because I supect that isn't always going to be the case. You have an opportunity that many people would give their eye teeth for. Try and be a little more patient and fit in with the programme however it flows from time to time. It will stand you in good stead for the future. If it really isn't for you, then yes, cut your losses. If (as I suspect) that isn't really the case, I am not sure where I would recommend you go to improve your future prospects.

[Bealzebub]

but can't place a cadet for love nor money
I have been informed we have 28 starting shortly. Perhaps we are mistaken?

[pipersam]

To begin with, the accommodation myself and my colleagues have been placed in is very far from the school (>20km) in an area that literally has nothing around it with a bus to Southampton central costing me £6 and taking an hour. For non-drivers like myself, this has placed me extremely demotivated and unhappy with unnecessary expenses

I guess you are in Hamble? I do seem to remember that the contract does state that providing transport for yourself is highly recommended as you could be placed in accommodation anywhere in the surrounding area?

I have been on a 2.5 hour lunch and regularly have 45min tea breaks too.

Treat this as a luxury! A 45 minute break was a god send after a couple of hours worth of POF!

I have also heard from students who are currently in New Zealand, that they only find out if they're going to be flying the next day at 4pm the day before. Some students have said that they have been up to TWO WEEKS waiting for their next training flight and only finding out only at 4pm every day.

Yeah it can be annoying but it's incredibly hard for FTO's and airlines to be as flexible as it seems you want them to be as there are so many variables effecting the operations. When I was there, Air New Zealand opened their employment doors and a number of instructors left for the airline. Just suck it up mate because at the end of the day, your going to experience these operational annoyances for the rest of your life. Aviation is not plane sailing.

And now that they have taken on far too many students, but can't place a cadet for love nor money, the only thing that kept people going through the constant bullsh*t (their "100% placement record") is soon to be a thing of the past too.

It seems you are predicting the future, which is impossible. And your wrong about them not being able to place students as well.

[M33]

Mr1862,

It's a real shame that you are having such a hard time, especially when you are the paying customer!

Flight training is certainly not cheap, and I think it is great that you are prepared to share your experience so far.

Informed choice should be available to all prospective students, and from my experience schools are very good at fudging statistics.

Mind it is a business!

[mr1863]

As a cadet who shares a CP with mr1862, I would like a few notes to go on the record.

1. The teaching has also been disappointing. Despite the 9-5 intensive approach we were told to expect (due to finishing a 12 month course in 5 months), this has never happened. In fact, as I write this, I have been on a 2.5 hour lunch and regularly have 45min tea breaks too. This results in me having to learn extra in my own time BUT with an hour commuting to-and-from my accommodation every day, squeezing in a gym workout wherever I can, it's even more difficult.

mr1862 is being disingenuous as to the nature of these breaks, and he knows better. Overall, of the four instructors who have taken classes with the CP; cadets were (and are) very pleased with 3 instructors and less so with a 4th. Such is life.

2. The accommodation to which mr1862 refers is widely considered to be sub-standard, as result CTC have agreed to review their lease on the property.

3. I've never heard the word 'incompetent' used by so many to describe one 'organisation'.

You clearly don't get out very much.

4. Cadets on mr1862's CP are beginning find his persistent whinging quite tedious, and feel that he might benefit from a more positive outlook on life.

[pipersam]

I think both of you should get off the internet and do some studying.

I sound like my dad.

[mr1862]

Funny how Mr1863 comes with all his superfluous, nugatory comments under the guise of a highly original username created just after my post, yet doesn't have the b*lls to say it to my face in class. ;) Talk about creating tension amongst your fellow colleagues now... a highly desirable pilot quality, sir! :D

I don't know, but where I come from, we have a) a certain standard of living and b) expectation of money paid vs product received - an argument that has been fought in courts worldwide and often won by the consumer. PM me for case law examples, I have loads.

And thanks for using your personal knowledge to almost centre out exactly who I am or, at least, where I live for the purposes of the hidden CTC staff on here. You're the man! :ok:

[harryc]

I appreciate that one of the main routes to a FO position realistically is with CTC and Easyjet or OAA and Ryanair but what are the intake statistics for both of the FTO’s

What do we know?
OAA placed 188 pilots in 2012
CTC I presume is standing by its 100% placement record
So what is the total intake of both schools per year – is it 12 months X 15 cadets giving 180 or is it more with many not getting placed?

[turbine100]

Are CTC Cadets still getting screwed with the bad Easyjet Flexicrew deal at the end training or has that changed and improved?

[Turner661]

My question is, IF I were to train as an integrated student with CTC - towards the end of the course - let's say I am 'fortunate' and Easyjet decide to take me on. On a Flexicrew basis.

Would I be able to say - thanks, but no thanks. Then apply for a RHS at an airline such as Flybe (example only). What are the chances that an airline that are not a partner of CTC would be sympathetic towards you?

All the time I guess CTC would have views on this also.....

[Bealzebub]

Well, Mr 1862, so much for the idea of taking a deep breath!
I think pipersam probably has given the best advice. As I mentioned earlier the course you are on will be timetabled, and although they usually streamline into two or more groups at the flying stage, each course should broadly complete all of their stages within the programmed schedule. By its very nature, that means there are times when some people get ahead, and then have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up. The waiting can sometimes be very frustrating, but that is just part and parcel of flying generally.

Turner661, other people will be able to give you a more qualified answer, but my understanding is that you can decline an offer of placement, but that doesn't ensure another would then be offered on any sort of "seniority" basis. If you were offered a job at an airline outside of the placement scheme that would be fine. Your bond would satisfy your training course costs to date and the contract would be satisfied on both sides. In other words, I don't believe you could then go back and request a placement if things didn't work out with the employer.

As I understand it, the airline placement is the final advanced stage of the course, and the terms very much depend on the airline customers themselves. For some there are additional costs. For some there are no additional costs. Each one is very different, because the terms prevailing are based on those offered by the airline partner. There is usually no guarantee that an employment contract will dovetail from these placements, although everybody hopes that one will. The number of placements on offer will also depend on both the market and seasonal needs of each of the airline partners. The combination of these demands will always mean that any predictions are subject to change.

[harryc]

Can anybody provide the intake wings cadet or oaa APPFO course totals for say Jan to Dec 2012?

[pipersam]

Can anybody provide the intake wings cadet or oaa APPFO course totals for say Jan to Dec 2012?

I would suggest that these figures are requested from the associated FTO's. Information regarding actual numbers given by anyone else would probably be inaccurate.

[mr1863]

Dear mr1862,

I am sincerely sorry that you have interpreted my previous post as a personal attack, particularly as there are a number of issues on which I sympathise with your position. I was merely expressing an alternative opinion, one which I had hoped you'd be big enough to allow. There are a number of reasons why I felt compelled to do so, which I will outline in the interests of greater understanding.

Firstly, you have attempted to cast doubt over the professionalism of a particular instructor. The instructor in question is self-evidently a skilled and experienced teacher who is highly committed the work of getting CTC cadets through their exams with top marks. You have done so primarily because you are unhappy with other aspects of CTC. I think that is wrong.

Secondly, persistent suggestions of legal action will ultimately engender a negative impression of our CP with the management of CTC. A impression that says we are unable to compromise, lack motivation and are generally here to cause trouble. I know that that could not be farther from the truth.

Lastly, I would hope that prospective cadets reading this thread would come away with a balanced and realistic image of CTC (after all that was us only months ago). While I respect your opinion, its not the whole story, and its important to redress that.

As I have already said, I have absolutely no desire to attack you personally. In that spirit, I will refrain from making remarks about your people skills or speculating as to how many balls you have.

mr 1863
(consider my name a tribute, rather than a rip off)

Every time someone posts something negative about CTC on Pprune CTC kill a puppy.

Its a guinea pig actually.

[PitchPitch]

CTC is a pilot sausage factory, one I and many others before have had the 'pleasure' of being processed through. They make money by getting as many people on courses as possible. They, i.e. CTC/ARL/OAA/Parc/eJ/any other cost critical business don't CARE about you at all. It's about making as much profit for as little cost as possible. Wake up to reality.

At the end of the day, they can screw you because there are loads of people who want that coveted jet job and will pay endless amounts to get there. Expect this to continue even into 'employment' if FlexiCrew is here to say.

Don't get me wrong. I love my chosen career and wouldn't change it for the world. I do however hate the terms on which I am employed and would not recommend it to anyone, nor would I recommend CTC to anybody hence why I do not help out at any of their roadshows or careers days. I would much rather be on the BALPA stand telling people the reality of the industry than helping CTC exploit even more young aspiring pilots with Mum and Dad's cash.

You cannot just walk in to CTC, get your licence then expect a lucrative flying job. I emplore anyone reading this in this position to have a back up plan otherwise risk being disappointed.

Oh btw, were you expecting luxury treatment when you signed up?? :ugh:

[sareltjie]

could anyone in the know please advise how the £40,000 bond protection works? does that cover failure at any point of the course, or just the course in its entirety? in other words, say a student fails the ground school, will they be refunded their first bond payment as part of the bond protection? thank you!

[giggitygiggity]

I think the bond protection has increased since I did it and it is likely the terms and conditions have changed so someone else may have to update this.

As I understand, the bond protection will not cover the first £10,000 (eg groundschool phase) and you are liable for this if you fail. If you fail later on in the training, you are eligible to get your bond returned to you up to a maximum of £40,000. This may not be exactly correct even when I did it (I am not reading from the contract but it should give you a rough idea). Best thing to do would be to contact CTC directly about it.

If you put in the effort you will complete the ground school so I wouldn't attempt the course if you don't feel up to the challenge.

[sareltjie]

Thanks so much. :)

Also, are any current CTC FlexiCrew pilots on here? Would appreciate 1 or 2 quick answers via PM. Nothing hectic.

[mr1864]

PitchPitch, you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. CTC makes a majority of their money from sending cadets to Partner Airlines, and it does so very well.

I doubt very much you can even spell CTC, let alone have attended their exemplary school.

Please be more convincing next time you lie on these forums.

[Matt7504]

The bond protection does cover the first £10,000, if you drop out at the ground school phase, you can get a percentage of your costs back.

[mr1865]

So what's the verdict chaps?
Do the aspiring airline pilots of the future go through CTC or not? What other realistic options have they got?

[G-CFMX]

Hey guys anyone been to a recent selection day or are attending selection with ctc on 20th feb?

thanks

:{

[SissySkinner]

Hey G-CFMX. Im attending the selection with CTC on the 20th Feb. I've got to say im pretty excited but a bit nervous at the same time.

[spider_man]

So it seems EZY is offering current Flexicrew (ex-CTC)/Parc contractors permanent contracts, albeit on undesirable t&c. Good news for ex-cadets in terms of income security, and also means these pilots will stick with the airline for much longer than has been the case in recent years. This probably means far fewer placements for CTC graduates with the airline going forward:

* EZY is still growing, but far less than in previous years - 7 new a/c this year compared to 21 in 2012.
* MON took 24 cadets, but this does not reflect any long term trend... They gained a few airframes this year and BA took a number of their crews.
* TCX is about to enter a merger process (historically this does not create pilot jobs!).
* Flybe are shedding pilots and have their own MPL scheme
* BA mainline have their own cadet scheme for now
* RYR and Cityflyer take from Oxford
* TOM have their own scheme...

The only others in the UK are Jet2 and Aer Lingus. Will they be looking at the middle east again? e.g. second officers for Ethiad.

[giggitygiggity]

Cityflyer has sort of taken cadets from CTC but none have started training yet as I understand it. They are in an airline holdpool so that isn't a firm offer.

CTC graduates are still eligible to apply for Ryanair but don't unless they have not been admitted into the hold pool as it involves forking out an additional £35k.

[u0062]

WARNING FOR ALL WHO ARE CONSIDERING TRAINING ORGANISATION LIKE CTC

I work for an Orange company based at LGW. On a dailly basis F/O describe there financial plight while we are flying. I read with horror the lack of understanding from people on this forum. I appreciate the flying schools provide statistics and coloured brochures, thats there job they selling like all business there products.

However the reallity is very different, the debit at the end of all the training including type ratings cost of living etc ranges with each individual. the figures the cadets have given me range between £120,000 to £180,000.
I appreciate there is a big difference but that is not the point. There loan repayment are £1000 / month during the winter they can hardly afford this payment let alone pay for rent, food etc. Many have gone bankrupt, others have to sleep on floors, rely on crew food for eating.

The new contract being offered at the Orange factory will mean they will live in poverty for many years. We have reached the point where this once great industry has now become a profit making scheme for the providers and Airlines at your expence

By joining these schemes you are just contributing to the deteoriating conditions. While people are willing to pay for these schemes companies will continue to reduce what you earn, the objectives of the Airlines is to get the Flight deck crews paying to fly.

You may feel that this does not effect you but it does if you are considering these schemes.

The answere I dont have, however as some one who has had a great career in aviation, the very least I can do is provide another side to this awful unfolding story.

Good luck with your choice.

[Stocious]

Well there's a balanced and well thought out post from someone who's not been through the current system.

I hesitate to say it, but if your cadets have £180k training debts then they must have had an awful lot of remedial lessons along the lines!

[u0062]

As stated these are figures given to me from cadets I fly with. That said when you take into consideration living costs etc it does not surprise me.

[Contact Approach]

Stocious,

When you consider the legal costs, loan fees, interest rates and missed payments/reduced repayment periods I think 120-180k sounds about right.

These guys have really been screwed over. It's not right.

[Bealzebub]

However the reallity is very different, the debit at the end of all the training including type ratings cost of living etc ranges with each individual. the figures the cadets have given me range between £120,000 to £180,000.

The figures I have seen are around £69,000 for the training course (bond) and around £10,000 for a "foundation course." There are other incidentals such as medicals, insurances and course equipment (around £3,000.) What happens at the end of the course then determines any additional "hard" costs. By that I mean it depends on the partner airline and if a placement immediately follows on from the course. Where it does, the additional cost can be as little as nothing (airline pays for type rating and also provides per diem allowances for training.) To close on an additional £10,000 for type rating training with airlines such as yours! These costs are determined by the partner airline rather than the FTO.

That gives a broad costing of £82,000 to £92,000. Then there are the candidates living costs. Accommodation is provided, but transport, food and personal incidentals are not. Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months (if you can't manage on that, try harder!) that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.

I am having trouble seeing where loans of £180,000 come from, unless there was (even in the worst case,) remedial training of over £78,500! It is difficult to imagine such a scenario. Similarly the same sum could involve living costs of over £5,700 a month, which means they would be living to a standard of luxury that a gulf royal prince would be proud of.

Those cadets that I have discussed such things with, didn't have to pay any type rating costs on joining their airline (obviously not your company,) and those with loans seem to have them in the 70-85K range.


I am not suggesting that these sums of money are anything less than eye watering, and should definetely be regarded as "mortgage levels of debt" without an asset to mitigate the borrowing. The risks associated with the assumption of this level is debt should be considered very carefully and always with a backup plan. However, simply throwing unrealistic numbers into the fray undermines your argument.

[u0062]

Bealzebub

You worry me greatly, looking briefly through the comments on this issue, whenever there is a negitive comment against the training providers, you seem to try and justify there sytem. Who do you work for!!!!!

I listen to these to the plight of the F/O on a daily basis, taking crew sandwiches so they can eat, sleeping on friends floors, I have sent seveal home because the are too Ill to operate yet they still come in because they need the money. Dont play games with a few numbers to justify your cause.

[Bealzebub]

I am not sure why I should worry you? If you have actually looked back through the posts you would be able to answer all of your own questions. I work for a partner airline.

The figures you were throwing out are simply unrealistic and I suspect you already know that. I am attempting to provide a degree of accurate information for people to use as a tool for their own use, rather than specious and unqualified comment.

Dont play games with a few numbers to justify your cause. I wasn't aware that I had "a cause." Are you suggesting these figures are wrong or in someway "a game"?

I listen to these to the plight of the F/O on a daily basis, taking crew sandwiches so they can eat, sleeping on friends floors, I have sent seveal home because the are too Ill to operate yet they still come in because they need the money. I would suggest then that the problem is with your company rather than the training provider. Our cadets do eat crew meals (in much the same ratio as anybody else seems to.) Seem to have comfortable and adequate living arrangements, (nobody has suggested otherwise for the last 15 years.) I have never sent anybody home. If they are sick they report sick. Apart from a relatively small amount of flight related pay, they would still receive their salary or (during the placement period) their bond repayments. If what you say is accurate, then it wouldn't be the intention of the FTO but rather the terms and conditions imposed by your employer. On that subject, I would defer to people with far greater insight. However, your company has been dominant in providing placement opportunities for graduates throughout a period of severe recession. I have said it before, but will say it again, they were pretty much the only game in town, and clearly used their advantage in this marketplace to set the terms and conditions that they chose to offer.

[Piloto2011]

comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!

Can I take that to mean, you come on here suggesting to young people, most of whom starry-eyed and no real clue about life - let alone finances! -, to take out a loan, the servicing of which will last them ten to twenty years (if things go well!), in dire times, with no shortterm nor midterm prospect of market improvement, only to be shafted by being forced into accepting a contract at the end of it, which will eventually see them crash for the night at their friends's pads, or parking lot, and live on a wonderful, healthy diet of crew sandwiches...?!

You kiddin' right?

I can't help wondering why most of the other guys here, who work with those people every day, don't stop warning against the whole thing, while you never miss a chance to defend the program... And this in a well-structured, eloquent fashion.

Not getting a piece of the cake, too, are you?

[Bealzebub]

I have no idea what you "can take that to mean." I cannot recall ever advising somebody to take out loans that they cannot afford. Perhaps you can run a search through my posts and attempt to point out where I ever have?

I have always attempted to give an honest, balanced and realistic appraisal of the market and how it has both evolved and what future direction it is likely to take. I don't think I pull my punches, or sugarcoat the reality in any way.

I talk about what I know about. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. If you disagree then fine. These programmes are an evolution of similar programmes that have been in existence for decades. The financing and composition of them has also evolved over the same period. For some people coming to these forums, they want information based on what is happening in the real world, not necessarily someones informed or ill informed opinion.

I see people who have used these courses to their advantage and betterment and it is entirely right to point that out. That there are enormous risks and pitfalls as well as some extremely poor companies out there, is something that I try and point out as often as possible and within the context of the particular reply. Nevertheless there are people and companies who utilise these programmes to good effect and with good results. They are undoubtably the lucky ones, in this enormous "pyramid of shattered dreams," but the reality is that they exist. I have given examples of where this has been the case and continues to be the case.

For people realistically looking for a fast track career with a couple of hundred hours (as so many are here,) the options are extremely limited. They have always been extremely limited. However there are options out there for the few who might qualify for them by virtue of ability, financial resource, and luck.

If a 20 year old wannabe asked me privately what I thought was the best way of getting an airline career these days was, I would tell them the same as I post on here. That is my experience of the market in the last 15 years. I have seen many people succesfully come through these programmes. That the path to a career in aviation is littered with bodies, is something that I have repeated time and time again, so I don't think I do anything to encourage or paint an unrealistic picture of the landscape.

So no, I am not kidding, and no I don't "get a piece of the cake" either. But I do work in a company where over a quarter of the pilot workforce are now graduates of these programmes and a company that continues to recruit from all of the traditional sources in roughly equal measure. I am not a graduate of this type of training, but I might be if I could turn the clock back 35 years. Not one penny of my annual income is dependent on these programmes or the FTO's involved in conducting them, nor is it ever likely to be.

Where you have good partners the programmes work well. Much of the sensible criticism being levelled, is about the partner airlines more than it is the programmes, the FTO's, or the young candidates. Where this combination exists, it shouldn't be too difficult to understand why a well structured cadet programme as part of a balanced recruitment drive is well defended. I make no apologies for that. For those companies where volume has perhaps smothered most of the vestiges of quality and investment, it isn't difficult to also see the usual daily rants (which may well be justified) emerging, blaming everyone and everything for their woes. Of course that is why you read so much of what you do read. It certainly isn't too hard to figure out.

[u0062]

As you are aware I work for the Orange brigade. I am therefore in a very good position to say what happens on the coal face. It is an utter discrace how these men and woman are treated just because they are trying to follow there dream, which turns into a nightmare.

I will let the jury decide who's best interest you have at heart.

I was recently asked by a friend to go to a school and do a presentation on becoming a pilot something I have done when my children were younger,i had to refuse. How can you promote exploitation. I am ashamed of what has become of our industry.

[Bealzebub]

I work in an industry that has evolved, and people still want to become a part of it. I have worked in it for 37 years. I see a part of my role as mentoring, supporting and teaching those people coming into the industry in order that they can take the bits they want to enable them to come the sort of pilots, and indeed people, that they want to be. I take some pride in that, and am not ashamed at all. Likewise, and whatever its faults may be, I also take pride in the job I do and with the employer I work for. Neither they nor I are perfect by a long chalk, but in recognising that fact we still try to be the best we can be. I really do believe that as a company (of which I am one very small cog) we treat people well, and we do endeavour to provide a positive and happy environment for people to work in, but more relevant to this discussion, to develop, grow and prosper in.

Over the best part of the last two decades, I have seen many, many young people come into this industry through this route, and achieve those qualities and fulfilled ambitions. Of those that I have worked with, I cannot once ever say that the way we treated them was a disgrace. It wasn't! Moreover since the vast majority are still working for us, some in quite senior positions, clearly they didn't think so either. Today in a fiercely cut-throat and competitive marketplace, we still pay for type ratings and pay training expenses to our cadets. We do, wherever possible, offer full time contracts after the short 6 month placement periods to our cadets. We don't exploit anybody. Further still, as part of a balanced recruitment programme, we place due weight on ex-cadet pilots from other employers (such as yours,) as a desirable source of our "experienced pilot" intake.

I wouldn't have any problem giving a school presentation on "becoming a pilot" simply because I would give an honest and balanced presentation. Perhaps your personal angst should be focused closer to home, rather than young people or the world in general. Should that focus be successful, there would be even more good opportunities for the best people striving to enter this profession.

So when you say....I will let the jury decide who's best interest you have at heart....Then that is fine by me. I will continue to help people succeed. and encourage them to achieve that success. I will warn people of the pitfalls and the realities. I will continue to highlight the enormous attrition rate that is prevalent in this career path. I am guilty of all those things and will continue to be so. Besides my salary and pension I don't have any other source of income, so that won't really be for your "jury" to decide.

[u0062]

I live in the real world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: