The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2. [Archive] - Page 12

Jimmbo

21st Apr 2009, 13:13

Heya guys,

I am currently going through the CTC process, having passed phase 3 last week and booked into phase 4. I'm extremely excited about possibly being able to start pilot training, having wanted to fly for the last 10 years, and finding out I cannot go military due to childhood asthma, I resigned myself that if unsuccessful with CTC I would have to find a different career.

My parents are extremely conscientious and need some firm reassurances if they are to help me secure a loan. They want to know that CTC are not a mickey mouse company and that neither the bank or company is about to go bust. Obviously, in all that they will want to know that I will be able to pay for my loans (so it will not come back and bite them).

As such I've trawled through several websites and found this thread in particular quite disturbing. As thebeak would say I've been looking for confirmation bias and not entirely taken into consideration that in 2 years time I could be looking at loan repayments and no job. I have several questions about reassurance over the company, but I suppose the primary question is should I be going through with CTC at all?

I understand that they have an excellent record at placing people. I was also told that they are partnering with new airlines. However, I have spoken with friend who's currently on his 6 month placement with EZY (having gone through CTC) and his explanation of the bond repayment differed considerably from Lee's presentation, and not for the better.

I appreciate those that suggest leaving the training for a few years until the market is more stable, but I see several problems with this. Firstly, would it not have seemed stable at the time of entry for my friend in EZY? Now he's having to resign to the fact that he will be lucky if he gets his bond back, and that he'll have to do agency work for the next few years. Secondly, during the presentation Lee stated they are raising the bond from 60,000 to 69,000 starting on the August course. I am potentially in the position to start in July (on the basis I pass phase 4), so is holding off a year (in a job where I am currently not paid much above basic salary) financially a good idea as I will undoubtly not recover the £9000 cost through working an extra year?

Sorry for the mammoth message. Its my first here on the forums and I seem to be in a position of many questions, and very few answers at the moment.

mattyh1986

21st Apr 2009, 13:32

Jimbo, I'm in exactly the same position at the moment. Im about to go to phase 4 on Thursday and would look to start in July to avoid the price increase.

CTC are a very reputable company, the big advantage I see for CTC is that you get a type rating without having to fork out £20,000 (as far as I understand please somebody correct me if I am wrong). If I went with FTE or Oxford it would cost me £80,000 and still no guarantee of a type rating.

As for finance and loan, its a bloody risky business taking out a large amount of money and putting it against your families house and again i'm in exactly the same position. I have some personal capitol but would still need a loan.

I think its vitally important to assess how you would manage if you have to spend 3-6-12 months without a flying job post training, my plan is to stay at home use my degree to get a job and just get by until my break comes, but there is no certainty. You are risking a lot so just be sure.

I also am going through the same thought process in terms of deciding if i should sit on it and wait a year or so. There are 2 factors which tell me to start in July, 1stly I want to avoid the increase in cost, and secondly I believe the economy will be recovering 18 months from now.

PM me if you wanna chat more, maybe I'll see you out there in July.

BSmuppet

21st Apr 2009, 13:35

First of all CTC are not a mickey mouse company.
CTC are part of the "top 4" - CTC, Oxford, FTE, Cabair

Regardless of what the glossy brochures say, you will NOT get a job at 250hrs with a shinny jet operator.

NOw we start the most boring thread ever.

Why go integrated? Why the rush? Why not go modular - pay as you fly rather than risking Mummy and Daddy's nice little semi?

I've been nice with my reply. Why go integrated? Especially now?

BSmuppet

21st Apr 2009, 13:38

the big advantage I see for CTC is that you get a type rating without having to fork out £20,000 (as far as I understand please somebody correct me if I am wrong). If I went with FTE or Oxford it would cost me £80,000 and still no guarantee of a type rating.

NO NO NO.

Jimmbo

21st Apr 2009, 14:22

Really BSmuppet? I thought that at least was one of the only PR things that CTC do deliver on, with my friend in EZY not having had to pay for type rating whereas others do.

I find it a bit disconcerting that the only people advocating training at the moment are those going through selection. Are there any trained/training pilots who would consider now a suitable time as any other to enter training? Espeically with the extra 9 grand looming if I did decide to delay my entry.

Zippy Monster

21st Apr 2009, 14:30

Jimmbo, if you read back through the previous few pages of this thread you will see that there a number of ex-cadets and current cadets who post regularly. I'm sure any of them will be pleased to help if you have specific questions about the course. As I said in an earlier post, the people who have been there and done it are the ones you are most likely to get straight answers from - not the ones trying to get you to part with £60k (or even £69k!)

That's very interesting about the bond going up by £9k. Seems strange when in the past they had people fighting to get in, and now people are having to fight just to get the finance. Whatever you do - and this applies to anyone reading - do NOT let this force you into making a decision about committing to the course before you are ready to.

£69,000... With the £7k foundation course, this means it's now going to total £76k (unless they're re-including the foundation course in the total cost.) That's £12,000 more than it was two and a half years ago. In the middle of a recession as well! :ooh: Something sounds strange to me.

BSmuppet

21st Apr 2009, 14:45

One more thing,

I wrote a slightly tongue-in-cheek post earlier on another thread. Can't remember what one.

Basically, it pointed out that when it comes to hiring (even when the market picks up), would the Chief Pilot/HR. team have much confidence in the decision making abilities of a guy who signed up to an Integrated scheme at the height of a recession where "experts" (contradiction in terms I know) say it will take a few years for us to get out of it?

Something to bear in mind - without going into an integrated vs mod debate. Discuss

Zippy Monster

21st Apr 2009, 14:46

BSMuppet, from Jimmbo's first post it sounds very much to me like he's undergoing selection for Wings Cadets, not Wings ATP. The bit about "wanting to start pilot training for 10 years" is a clue.

I may be wrong but I think you are confusing the CTC Wings and the CTC ATP.apparently ATP & EZY are not having the best relationship at present.Those two lines from your post suggest you are confusing the CTC Wings ATP scheme, and the Airline Training Partnership ATP (nothing to do with CTC) scheme. That's how it comes across anyway. Can we keep this thread on the subject of Wings Cadets, to avoid confusion?

EDIT to add:
For clarity, and to clear up a common misconception:
"CTC Wings" encompasses both Cadets and ATP. Cadets is 0-fATPL, ATP is for those who already have CPL/IR. Confusion starts to arise when people refer to them as "Wings" and "ATP". This is incorrect - the CTC ATP course is a part of the Wings Scheme. And to the best of my knowledge, EZY's relationship with CTC is intact.

Now, back to talking about the cadet scheme...!

BSmuppet

21st Apr 2009, 15:05

the point is this - from the FAQ

• Am I guaranteed a job?

No airline sponsorship programme guarantees a job. The commitment we give is that, subject to a satisfactory performance in training and no change to our partner airline recruitment plans, we will make every effort to ensure that our graduates are placed through us

SO your question to me:

I thought that at least was one of the only PR things that CTC do deliver on, with my friend in EZY not having had to pay for type rating whereas others do

..is purely based on whether you get a job with a partner airline. Now this is the same with all of the Top 4.

No one guarantees a job. You really need to explain this to you parents first.

no sponsor

21st Apr 2009, 15:43

Jimmbo,

Is there a reason why you must start in training this year? Why not pass selection and wait 12 months and see how CTC cope with the downturn? Although CTC will try and paint the glossy 'sponsorship' route, they are simply a business, and you pay for the training. There is no sponsorship.

Also, one has to be mindful that in any normal business producing a product, output is varied with demand. My airline has cut back on routes this past winter due to poor yields, aircraft manufacturers are scaling back production, but CTC is steaming full ahead.

With a vastly reduced demand for their output (their trained pilots) CTC are continuing to pump out newly qualified cadets. Of course, their business will only survive with positive cash flow, and hence they need cadets. However, long-term, it is simply not sustainable. My airline has just over 300 pilots and 31 aircraft. We have hired 5 people (not from CTC!) in the recent months, only on short-term contracts, simply because we haven't bought any new aircraft, and no-one is leaving, since no-one is recruiting. Monarch has a similar number of pilots. There is not a never ending demand for pilots. Once airlines no longer expand their fleets, recruitment slows considerably, and in some cases airlines retrench.

Soon the UK will be full of pilots with 400hrs on an Airbus, and a lot of debt. Once EZY stop expanding their fleet, then there will not be a need for summer only contracts either, then what will happen? CTC business model is premised on expanding airlines, and the wheels come off their scheme once that stops but they keep the output of cadets geared to the needs of adding 2/3 aircraft per month. In normal sponsorship schemes, the output is matched pretty much to the needs of the airline, hence why in the past the BA/BMI schemes came and went as the needs of their business changed.

My advice to you is wait and see.

BSmuppet

21st Apr 2009, 15:52

or.....

go mod!!! Take a few years doing weekends ready for 2012/2013. With very little debt and with no risk to Mommy and daddy's retirement plans.

Unless you have VERY rich parents, getting your parents to sacrifice 30/40 years of hard work is perhaps the most selfish thing anyone can do, especially when there is a recession on!

Honestly, I don't want to start a cat fight here, but who would hire you when you (and others) make decisions such as this?

Jimmbo

21st Apr 2009, 16:52

Thank you for the input guys,

I certainly have no wish to ruin my parent's hard work BSmuppet. Since my partner I hopefully should be in a position to afford our own mortgage this year, if I pass selection and hold fire at least a year I can see that I would be in a far better position financially and job security-wise (although it is mildly crushing as I had in my mind a July start).

In the long term, a 9 grand increase does not bother me so much if I am relatively safe in the knowledge of my chances of gaining permanent employment at the end of training.

With all this in mind, would you support waiting 1 year before joining the wings program or go modular instead. I prefer the idea of integrated partly as I am admittingly a little lost in how one would progress through a modular route. But it also appears that those through integrated schemes have seniority in the holding pools. Is this no longer the case?

no sponsor

21st Apr 2009, 17:01

All that matters is that whoever you train with knows people who know people. CTC have an excellent track record in placing their cadets. The modular routes downside has been the lack of a obtaining the fast-track into airlines, and at the end of the day, it can be a risk.

Integrated don't get seniority, it is just that some airlines only take integrated out of flying school for the first job. For example, BA only take integrated onto their SSP scheme.

CTC is probably the best chance of getting a job, which is why many who apply to it do so. It saves them the hassle of job hunting!

TheBeak

21st Apr 2009, 17:07

Unless you have VERY rich parents, getting your parents to sacrifice 30/40 years of hard work is perhaps the most selfish thing anyone can do, especially when there is a recession on!

Honestly, I don't want to start a cat fight here, but who would hire you when you (and others) make decisions such as this?

Exactly what I have said in the past and I would maintain that. Though I will accept perhaps I have been a little too 'direct'...... So I'll try and be a little nicer, here it goes......

Jimmbo, your question shows good fore-thought and shows you do have some care within you and for that you should be commended. Not least because of this comment:

I find it a bit disconcerting that the only people advocating training at the moment are those going through selection. Are there any trained/training pilots who would consider now a suitable time as any other to enter training? Espeically with the extra 9 grand looming if I did decide to delay my entry.

I would personally recommend as said above, do the selection and keep it in the bag. In the meantime start working, if you aren't already, and pay as you go doing your PPL. Ensure you REALLY do love flying and you actually do have some aptitude for it. Also get your class 1 medical nice and early to make sure all this heartache isn't for nothing. It really isn't a waste having a PPL if you do join an integrated course as you can get credit for the hours and some rebate on the finances. And you help the food chain by generating a little business for Flying Instructors (which I am not), so everyone is happy. For someone absolutely set on becoming a career pilot RIGHT NOW and who doesn't have an endless bag of cash, I can't recommend a PPL enough for all the reasons above.

Now is quite possibly one of the worst times in the history of aviation to train to be an airline pilot, second only to starting anywhere from 12-15 months ago. That is the unfortunate reality. I certainly, really wouldn't recommend securing any loan above £30000 on your parents home, it is VERY, VERY dangerous. There or below the debt is going to be manageable with the average salary and living at home.

If your parents are that willing to commit and they do have enough equity have they considered remortgaging? The repayments would be alot less. I really don't know how viable that is though.

My head, my heart, my gut and my experience all tell me that this is not the time to be embarking on an integrated course.

BSmuppet

21st Apr 2009, 18:04

Jimbo,

The declaration that you admittedly do not know how to progress via the modular route sends alarm bells ringing as it shows you have done really little research in terms of:

1. What airlines take integrated/mods
2. How cheaper it is
3. How you can work and fly/study over 3 years.

The deal is this. When things were rosy, certain airlines would only take 250hr cadets from integrated courses. BA being one of the very few and they would have been cherry picked - i.e Oxford, FTE, CTC would have picked just a handful of cadets as they would not want to be embarassed - so 1st time passes for everything, 90% odd averages in the ATPLs etc. And pass their own tests.

Now going integrated for the very slim chance of even getting an interview with BA is a very big risk - unless you could afford it.

Now fast forward to today. BA do not hire staight-out-of-training cadets at the moment. And who knows how long this will take?

The way to get to a shiny jet - especially in today's market- is to start off at the very bottom like US pilots do. Crop spraying or something like that. Or if you have £30K lying about at the end of your training, you can hand it over to Mr O' Leary. In both cases, it doesn't matter whether you went integrated or modular. And in today's market, that isn't going to happen anyway.

Seriously, if you don't know themod way then read up on it. Only then can you make an informed decision.

You have to ask yourself whether you can afford the loan repayments whilst flying at the bottom end of the scale. My flight instructor can't even afford a beer after work. And he is one of the "lucky" ones who actually managed ot get a job! And it cost him £6K for the Flight Instructor course! Which he had to get another loan for.

BSmuppet

21st Apr 2009, 18:11

The sad thing is the T&Cs that present pilots once enjoyed are being eroded by this slapdash attitude to training. And its about time Integrated schools were regulated in terms of supply and demand.

The mere fact that integrated cadets come out with eye-watering debts means airlines can exploit the T&Cs. Ryanair will chuck you out once you become more expensive and will replace you with eager eyed pilots willing to pay 30K for a 737TR. easyJet starving its pilots of bloody tea and coffee.

And the lower T&Cs will be expereinced by us wannabees. This really needs to be sorted out. And it needs to happen now.

mattyh1986

21st Apr 2009, 18:33

people talk here as if CTC turn you out in a matter of weeks. It takes over a year to train! the economy will be in a different shape.

As for CTC raising their costs, its my understanding that they have been at £60,00 for last 10 years of however long its been, how can they possibly sustain £60,000! all the other FTO's are charging £80,000+ they have to raise their costs some where just to remain in business.

My argument is, as long as you can afford it without risking too much and as long as you have a back up plan, now is an excellent time to train, you wont start for at least 2-3 months so your looking at the best part of 2 years maybe more before you find yourself looking for a job, the situation is grim at the moment but it wont stay like this.

no sponsor

21st Apr 2009, 19:46

Matty,

CTC make money from partner airlines too, so this should be added to the revenue obtained from a cadet.

CTC have a contract with EZY worth many millions, which can be seen from their press releases.

BSmuppet

22nd Apr 2009, 09:11

Matty/Jimbo,

What I can't understand is why the rush?

Even if you have a crystal ball telling you that the recession will end 2 weeks before your MCC course, why would you knowingly get yourself into such a large debt? When you can simply do it the cheaper, more flexible and secure way?

Also jimmbo, without prying as its none of my business but if you hope to have a mortgage soon with your partner how can you afford the course?

Matty,

I saw your post regarding repayments for a 50-60K loan and for once, there were excellent replies but didn't the replies scare you?

The novelty wearing off yet having close to £2K coming out in loan repayments per month! Guys working as dustmen! Even dispatch guys who can't affort the "£1980" repayments per month. People giving you advice on going modular. Enjoying your PPL and assessing the market in 5-6 months time?

I haven't seen WWW for ages on here. I think he has come to the end of his tether.

mattyh1986

22nd Apr 2009, 10:13

On a loan of £40,000 repayments wouldn't be anywhere near £2000. I just think this is an excellent time to train, things will be different in 2 years, and if they are not I'm confident in my own ability to be able to find alternative employment and get by until the situation does get better, which it will.

BSmuppet

22nd Apr 2009, 11:54

Matty,

it seems you have already made your decision and I wish you good luck and hope for all our sakes that what you said is true.

I won't take the mick out of your positivity about the recession. We never saw it coming (www did :ok:) so likewise we might come out of it just as fast.

I honestly wish you good luck.

However I maintain that I do not agree with this method of training without any regulation to the supply and demand.

"I just think this is an excellent time to train, things will be different in 2 years"

Out of interest where did you hear that now is a good time to start training? In the latest AFE newspaper, there was a massive spread about how the industry is in a worse condition than ever. But at the bottom, there was an article from the top guy at Cabair saying that he believes now is the best time to start training.

I chuckled somewhat

Wee Weasley Welshman

22nd Apr 2009, 22:26

I'm moving house and going to ante natal classes and the builders are still in so I'm too busy for here...

You'll ruin your life if you start an 80k training course between now and 2010 at the earliest. I really mean that.

WWW

TheBeak

23rd Apr 2009, 08:06

Yeah but that's not what people want to hear so you can't say it. You are, of course, absolutely right. I was absolutely astonished to read CTC are increasing their prices and by such an amount. If they are needing to do that given the current economic climate I would be even more aware. Certainly do not let a price increase at a certain date force your decision to begin training......

Think of your pilot training like taking passengers on a flight. Would you take 4 passengers up in a seneca single crew with 50kts of crosswind and thunderstorms everywhere? If you would, you are suffering from 'get-there-itis' (see:Worldandnation: 'Get-there-itis' can be fatal for pilots (http://www.sptimes.com/News/72099/Worldandnation/_Get_there_itis__can_.shtml))

Commencing pilot training right now is VERY comparable. You'd be crazy to. I have personal experience of get-there-itis in several flying and non flying areas and it ALWAYS leads you to a cock up. It means you take irrelevant, made up information and make it the most important factors in your decision making. DON'T DO IT.

Mattyh1986 I'd love to hear you back up how you can say:

My argument is, as long as you can afford it without risking too much and as long as you have a back up plan, now is an excellent time to train, you wont start for at least 2-3 months so your looking at the best part of 2 years maybe more before you find yourself looking for a job, the situation is grim at the moment but it wont stay like this.

There has never been a worse time to begin training. FTOs could very really go bust, there are huge hold pools of trained pilots building, There is a huge amount of flux within the industry in terms of Ts and Cs i.e. FlexiCrew and Paying to fly. I'd recommend letting things settle down. As I have said go and do a PPL if you have enough money to cut amount needed to be borrowed to £40-50K. Without knowing your finer details it sounds to be a good training solution for you or anyone looking to begin training so desperately right now.

Bambe

23rd Apr 2009, 09:10

Blablablabla.... Enough guys, why don't you create your own topic??? You don't want to start your training now? Fine, do so, nobody will blame you but please don't come with your boring considerations.
Move away!
Thanks

Chief475

23rd Apr 2009, 13:16

Hi guys this is my first post on here. I've just made it through stage 3 yesterday and have been offered a place on a course starting in July (just before the 9k rise comes in!). I thought I would share some interesting information with you - there is no longer a stage 4!
CTC have said there were so few failure rates in the sim and the PILAPT tests and numerecy tests were enough to satisfy their requirements for the cadet scheme.
I've read through quite a few posts, there seems to be a lot of negativity at the mo to whether now is a right time to start training - at the end of the day it is YOUR choice. I understand that I will have a lot of debt for a while and may have to wait a bit for a placement with an airline after training, again MY choice. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions I understand this but this thread as far as I can see is to share experiences with CTC, not to slate it.
Just wanted to say congrats to those who made it through, and good luck. I've been cabin crew for the last 5 years and have spoken to a lot of my flight deck colleagues who have all had good things to say about CTC. A few of them have even trained with CTC and have said it is one of the best out there and the set up is top notch.
Before I go anyone have any advice on where to go for financing this? I hear HSBC are good, plus the Spanish bank CTC told me about, I don't speak spanish tho, all I know is 'dos san miguel por favor'.:ok:

99jolegg

23rd Apr 2009, 13:46

CTC have said there were so few failure rates in the sim and the PILAPT tests and numerecy tests were enough to satisfy their requirements for the cadet scheme.

Wow! I bet that'll make those that applied in the past that got through stages 1-3 but failed 4, very happy since if they went through now, they'd have passed selection instead of being rejected...

no sponsor

23rd Apr 2009, 14:02

Chief,

Well done on passing the selection, and not having to sit in a simulator!

Experiences of CTC can be good, bad, and so-so. It is always useful for people to hear all sides to the story, from those who are about to train, to those who are actually airline pilots. There's nothing wrong with views which paint a negative view of CTC so to help people to make an informed decision. In fairness to the recent replies on here, the emphasis has been on timing and training, and the impact to placement if airlines continue on a summer-only contract. Most agree that the standard of training is good, certainly in the piston stages of flight training.

Jerez use that Spanish bank as well, and I don't think a requirement is to speak Spanish. Be aware that your loan will be in Euros, and of course, CTCs bill is in UK pounds!

Zippy Monster

23rd Apr 2009, 14:17

there is no longer a stage 4!Presumably then, they'll be reducing the cost of the selection process. After all, that sim time and instructors' fees can't be cheap and the 'bond' is about to go up by £9k.We'll see what happens with that one!

Shame about that though, the sim is the only bit of the selection process which is actually fun!

You won't get much out of HSBC these days - if you could, CTC would still be pointing you in their direction rather than towards BBVA. Speculating here, but you might be able to get the loan in Pounds, BBVA do have a UK branch apparently.

BSmuppet

23rd Apr 2009, 14:33

Stage 4 abolished to ensure as many cadets as possible keep the sausage machine afloat.

Who knows? Perhaps tomorrow Stage 3 is abolished.

Excellent point regarding a fee reduction due to Stage 4 being abolished:ok:

LAX

23rd Apr 2009, 16:38

As this is a rumour network, me thinks 9k required to fill a hole in the pension fund:suspect:

TFlexMax80

23rd Apr 2009, 17:37

Maybe they just haven't got the capacity in the sims, what with all those type ratings they're doing for Wings Cadets and ATP guys at the moment....

Oh no wait a second.... :suspect:

A319-20

24th Apr 2009, 13:39

And what about CTC going bust???? Price raised up, phase 4 removed to attract as many people as posssible and make it easyer (kind of compensation now the HSBC scheme is no longer available)...

That sounds like XL which took bookings until the very last minute!!!
Be careful guys, be very careful

Chief475

24th Apr 2009, 18:30

No sponsor - I was joking about the speaking Spanish part just to let you know!
When I was at the assessment day at Dibden they also said that it was of course cheaper for them not to put people through the Sim! I don't think they will go bust to be honest, they must make a lot of money from the interest earned alone on all the security 'bonds'! Suppose the 9k rise could be to cover the deficit in payments from the airlnes to them as the partner airlines aren't taking many of the cadets at the mo?
I do feel sorry for those who failed at stage 4 previously, definently just down to luck then I guess with the timing of your application! Thanks to those advising me on finance, I've got an appointment with the bank on Monday! :}

disco87

26th Apr 2009, 16:28

I read a lot about it being a silly idea to start training now, unless it is modular and that low houred pilots will not be hired till something like 2012. Perhaps I am wrong but waiting a year and doing an integrated course would have you finishing around about that time.

If it's integrated that is best then a year is not that long a time to wait, plus it also gives you the advantage of being able to see what happens with the economy in general.

On a side not though, I would imagine that most people reading this want to do an integrated course - so what advice would people give about when to start one (just a guess, its not going to be pinned against you)

000Richard

26th Apr 2009, 21:24

Hello All,

I'm new to this so go easy - with regard to the lack of recruitment from the airlines and the fact CTC is still training pilots at a rate of, approx, 20 per month - if, indeed, the industry does pick-up in, say, 2 years time, will there be an enormous pool of trained pilots within CTC?

I understand the pool is currently around 25- 30, and allowing for natural attrition within the airlines, would it be fair to anticipate this pool to carry on growing? meaning that even if training is started now with the hope that at completion the industry is back on its feet, there would be a sizeable queue before a job becomes available?

TheBeak

27th Apr 2009, 07:24

They certainly aren't placing 14 people a month which is around about what they are taking. If inflow is greater than outflow you get overflow AKA a hold pool which will grow and grow and grow I predict.

BetpumpS

27th Apr 2009, 08:18

Yes richard000,

I expect in 2 years time, there would be 300 plus swimming in sh1t. (24 months X 14 per month approx).

Even if the industry does pick up in 2 years (which it won't), there will still be a back log. Write this year off and start training next year.

If you are that desperate to start in 5 minutes time, then I can only offer two pieces of advice:

1. Have 30K spare so you can start with a certain Irish airline as soon after finishing

2. If that is not an option, make sure you have a back up plan for 1 year+ straight after training. (i.e repayments and a job - but with enough money to keep yourself current).

99jolegg

27th Apr 2009, 10:44

It appears that things might be slowing down for the intakes...up until now the lowest has been 10 cadets. The next group out here consists of just 5.

Bambe

27th Apr 2009, 11:50

I'm sure CTC would love to take their 14 cadets a months but people simply can't fund the training anymore... They were 11 in the latest CP, less than 10 planed for the next one. I assume it is one of the reason the ATP route has re-opened as ATP guys don't have to pay for their TR, they'll just be bonded with the airline they'll fly for...

Chilli Corneto

27th Apr 2009, 15:14

There are 15 cadets booked for June's course. One of them has had to defer with a couple of others looking doubtful. July's course was less but those that don't make June may go in July averaging out the numbers.

Emma.B

28th Apr 2009, 10:12

Does anyone know how I can register for the CTC Wings forum please?

I'm thinking the topics on there may be a bit more relevant.

Cheers

Emma

99jolegg

28th Apr 2009, 10:15

You have to have a place on the course first.

Emma.B

28th Apr 2009, 10:34

Yep, got my place on CP77 but not recieved the offer pack yet.

Will I have to wait til I get that?

Emma

99jolegg

28th Apr 2009, 10:54

I think you get the login details when you forward them your Class 1 medical.

FANS

29th Apr 2009, 19:43

As has already been repeated throughout these threads, caution is the current name of the game.

CTC clearly needs cadets like never before, as demonstrated by:
- reducing application charges
- opening up their ATP stream, despite demand clearly not being there
- advertising that if you don't start asap, course prices will increase

This last point really causes concern and generally points to a level of real desperation.

Furthermore, if you look through their last accounts, the following concerns can be noted:
- loss making in 07/08 (even at operating profit level) - how on earth is it doing now?
- negative cash outflow for the last 2 years - simply can't continue!
- directors being forced to write why they believe the business is still a going concern! Not normal.

Now, I am not for one minute suggesting that this business will go bust (and have no inside information) but please be really, really careful as £60k+ is a huge sum of money.

CTC has undoubtedly proven itself to be a good product in the boom years, but for now, why not wait 12 months to avoid any sleepless nights!

TheBeak

29th Apr 2009, 21:05

Furthermore, if you look through their last accounts, the following concerns can be noted:
- loss making in 07/08 (even at operating profit level) - how on earth is it doing now?
- negative cash outflow for the last 2 years - simply can't continue!
- directors being forced to write why they believe the business is still a going concern! Not normal.

Where do you get that information from?

Ollie23

29th Apr 2009, 22:36

Yeah doesn't make for pretty reading.

Not sure how much cash/liquid assets CTC have parked on their balance sheet, but i doubt it would be sufficient to absorb figures like that in the long term. Negative cahsflows are often one of the first signs of trouble.

As already mentioned the most worrying is that some of their recent measures reek of desperation.

EK4457

29th Apr 2009, 23:08

Sad news really - particularly for those half way through the course out in NZ. Bet they were pleased to see the ATP scheme started!

I must say I smelt a rat straight away when I saw the Wings ATP scheme open. With the cadets struggling to get summer temp contracts, the idea of throwing more pilots into the hold pool in today's climate suggests all is not rosy down at the mannor.

Time will tell, but all of the above information is classic behaviour of a company clutching at straws.

Many here have said the credit crunch will do some serious damage to the integrated training world. Perhaps it will never be the same again - certainly there will be less £60k loans.

The bottom line is wait and see. If they are still here in 18 months time then think about it. In the mean time keep your money. And hands off the old man's house!

Ollie23

29th Apr 2009, 23:17

Total assets are worth £32,074,000. Cash reserves are £1,939,000.

Thanks. I doubt that a large portion of the assets are particularly liquid should they need to shore up the cash reserves at short notice though.

Sad news really - particularly for those half way through the course out in NZ.

I am not sleeping easily and haven't been for a while i can assure you.

wannabeforever

30th Apr 2009, 12:50

The accounts cover the period when considerable sums of money were flowing Thielert's way to keep the twin stars flying, compounded by alpha in nz going bust, which required more hired aircraft than anticipated. Indeed a large portion of the loss is attributable to ctc nz in the accounts.

That said, if the best they could manage was a fairly sizeable loss (though considerably less than the profit made in the previous year as a group) while times were good, I agree that the figures for the current period must surely be pretty sickening.... :uhoh:

TheBeak

30th Apr 2009, 13:23

And to be honest, it was their short-term, poor decision making to buy untried and tested fleets for the company because they could buy them and operate them cheaply (relatively). Buying DA42s for NZ was an absurd decision. So it IS there fault that the accounts are so bad. Short termism almost certainly leads to failure - It means people can't see the wood for the trees.

no sponsor

30th Apr 2009, 14:06

When schools have gone under in the past, they trade and take students money right up until they go bust. It happened to several schools in the past, and the students were left with nothing. It was a while ago (SFT, PPSC etc) and it is the reason why so many argue that you should never pay up front.

99jolegg

1st May 2009, 04:23

Yes it is, just 12% of their portfolio.

TheBeak

1st May 2009, 08:06

The G1000 and the DA42 are fantastic bits of kit. BUT buying a European aircraft and a European engine for a New Zealand training organisation which is working to deadlines was foolish. Especially when they had the problems with the same maker (Diamond) with the Katana. No body had many hours on the machine at all, it wasn't tried and tested. If there were ever going to be any problems then getting parts was going to be a minimum of a week long affair. Not enough foresight. Too much focus on the 'cost of running' which was the ONLY decision making factor. It is nothing like flying an airliner. It is a postive and relevant step forward though, G1000 and FADEC are awesome. Don't believe the hype.

Why not buy Senecas with G1000? Or any twin they can be bothered to fit G1000 to? Seminoles, Duchess, Comanches, ANYTHING!

With the new engines however I am sure the DA42 will be fine and CTC will not have the same kind of problems with it.

one post only!

1st May 2009, 08:20

It has got to be the longest roll out of an aircraft to get it flying trouble free!!! They were imminently arriving ready for flight when I was out there in mid 2003. Would have been nice to have had a go in one.

fuzzle

2nd May 2009, 12:31

I think some of the info being banded around re CTC's finances seems a bit subjective. Two statements made by FANS were:

"negative cash flow for the last two years"; and
directors being forced to write why they believe the business is still a going concern - not normal".

I also got hold of CTC's accounts and noticed the cash outflow figures, however if you look at the detail of their cash flow statement you will see that the "net cash outflow for capital expenditure" for the same two years totals over £3.6m, and yet the total cash outflow over the same period totals £2.5m. It seems that the cash outflow was a result of acquiring new assets then?

I showed their accounts to a mate who is training to be an accountant who told me that apparently the other place to look at to assess a company's cash flow is the value attributed to "net cash inflow from operating activies". Apprarently as long as this is positive, then it shows that the company is generating cash from its day to day activites. Although the figure dropped in 2008 from 2007, CTC's accounts seem to show that they did generate cash from all their activities.

I also asked my mate about the going concern part, as I wondered about that too. He told me that all accounts now have to have a statement in them which give the directors' opinion of the company to operate as going concern. I checked out HSBC Bank's accounts (all 472 pages!!) and they have made a similar disclosure on page 331:

"Since the Directors are satisfied that the Group and parent company have the resources to continue in business for the foreseeable future, the financial statements continue to be prepared on the going concern basis"

so it would seem that this type of statement is normal.

I guess we don't have info on what is currently the position of CTC right now, but you would think they would be foolish to keep sending pilots out to New Zealand if they thought they were about to go bust.

TheBeak

2nd May 2009, 13:13

You have taken a big interest in it then by the looks of all your research and efforts! Are you considering joining CTC? Or do you work for them? No problem if you do......

Certainly everything I have said is not intended to slate CTC, I have no basis to. And I would say if you insist on doing an 'all in' package integrated course CTC is your best bet in terms of opportunities after training. They certainly have more of an invested interest in your future.

but you would think they would be foolish to keep sending pilots out to New Zealand if they thought they were about to go bust.

That is complete crap though. They are a limited company. They have no liability to refund money or return anyone from NZ if things were to go wrong. Their liability is to what they have invested. They have nothing to lose by taking people on and will continue to do so until the bitter end, whenever that maybe, if ever that maybe.

eoincarey

2nd May 2009, 13:22

Got my offer throught for a course going out in November. MANY questions!
1. Price going up to 69,000 squiddles. Doesn't this put it on a par with the likes of Oxford's 'Pilot in a Can' course? Plus the foundations course costs!

2. What region are the loan repayments in? If you were to get a job straight away, what sort of dent would the repayments make, and how long to pay off?

3. The upfront thing doesn't bother me - you pay in instalments - if CTC go bust, you stop paying. But what safeguards are in place should CTC go bust? Do you come out with any qualification?

Overall, with the unsecured loan going, the price going up, and the depressed state of the mployment market, can people remind why CTC has always been discussed as a 'third way' into the aviation industry (Military, modular, Oxford etc., and then 'CTC)??

I'm not trying to be negative at all, I am genuinely motivated. Just would like to see some fresh discussion in the light of present circumstances.

ETC

Wing_Bound_Vortex

2nd May 2009, 16:08

CTC was the "third way" as you call it because at the time it was an excellent way into the airlines, with the boom hiring times you were almost certain to get a permanant job contract at the end of training. It was possibly slightly less expensive than FTE or Oxford, and well known and quite highly regarded within the industry.

However that is not the case now. Gradual increases in the real cost of the course, paying for foundation flight training on top of the 60k, that 60k now up to 69k etc means that there is much more parity between it and other training organisations. Loan repayments would now be up to over £1300 a month, based on that sort of outlay. As a new FO at a lot of airlines you'd be struggling to break the £3000 a month barrier, if that. Maybe more like £2700-2800. 7 to 8 years to pay back at a minimum.

And that's before we get to the real problem, no permanent jobs with the state of the market as it is and quite possibly none for a very long time. What's to stop any airline only taking on contract FO's in the high demand season ad infinitum. So you get paid £1000 a month plus maybe a few '00 in sector pay. You can't pay back that loan and live.

The benefits of CTC or any other integrated course have been shot down i'm afraid, certainly for the moment, much better to go modular now if at all and spread your training and cost risk out.

That's the reality.

WBV

TheBeak

2nd May 2009, 16:42

Well said WBV. I think the contract way of employment is the way most airlines (certainly CTCs) are taking things, now people have shown willing it has set a precedent. And it could get worse, you give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

FANS

2nd May 2009, 16:46

Fuzzle, firstly welcome to pprune and thank you (and your accountant friend!) very much for helping to clarify the situation. We can all sleep easy now.

It was very good of you to selflessly go through 472 pages of HSBC's accounts purely for the benefit of all of those wannabes on this forum....

I am currently out of the country at present so do not have access to the stat accounts, but will go through the stats on my return. I may also ask an accountant friend for help out.

P.S. Directors are indeed required to prepare the accounts on a going concern or break-up basis, however they normally only include a one liner like HSBC - I seem to remember that CTC (given it's a smaller & a private company)had to go into more detail.

Choosing a bank to compare CTC's stats to is also very interesting - do you know something we don't?! I seem to remember that Northern Rock, HBOS, Lehman Brothers etc etc all considered themselves going concerns...

Lastly, I have nothing against CTC and agree that accounts are subjective. They are already well out of date and I have no idea how badly CTC is currently performing, but please note TheBeaks' spot-on last comment.

fuzzle

3rd May 2009, 08:45

Thankfully I didn't need to go through all 472 pages - just clicked search on the PDF document for the words "going concern".

Only chose HSBC as I bank with them and it was the first name that came into my head where I thought their accounts would be freely available on the net.

eoincarey

9th May 2009, 11:05

Also, another quick question. I'm doing a little research for a friend. What are the selection/entry ratios for CTC compared to Oxford. Much has been said about CTC's 5% pass rate in selection. What's OAA's like in comparison?

P.S. Just looking for numbers here people, not a tirade viz a viz the OAA/CTC debate.

michaellynas

23rd May 2009, 18:53

I heard it was about 40% for Oxford. I thought it seemed a bit high so it might be wrong. I know two people who have been/ are at Oxford, one loves it and one didn't and recommended CTC so it just depends what you want.

TheBeak

23rd May 2009, 19:10

But given your mate didn't train at CTC it's a pretty worthless recommendation. I don't mean to sound arsey but it is. He may well be believing the hype......If you are going to get your money all secured and you are hell bent on an integrated course, just pick one out of the hat - I don't know anyone who has said they would recommend Oxford, I don't know anyone who has said they would recommend Cabair and I have met a few who would recommend FTE and CTC. But they don't know what the other FTOs were like. You WILL have delays because of weather, aircraft going tech, useless operations staff etc. wherever you go. There will be some good instructors and some dreadful ones. And it'll all be very annoying. And it will, as a matter of fact, all be the fault of the FTO, even the weather - after all they chose to train pilots in that location.

michaellynas

23rd May 2009, 20:01

I don't want to start another debate, I'd say they've all got their good and bad points and the guy thats finished training at Oxford has been working with an airline for a few years and is just going by what he's heard from people who have trained at CTC. He still thinks Oxford is good, he just didn't like the structure of their course but my other mate loves it. The best idea is just to pick what FTOs course you think would suit you best.

Bambe

23rd May 2009, 23:27

I agree with The Beak. CTC is far from perfect, but this is what the job is all about I guess.
Delays, bad weather, aircraft tech.... I have learnt to never make plans on my flying days even if the schedule tells me I'll be finished by the time.

cptcollins

25th May 2009, 15:05

All I see on this CTC Cadets thread is a lot of aspiring pilots having their dreams shat on by people who didn't get in. I just read someone say "Far from perfect" (Sorry who-ever you are I know you weren't moaning), well, yes but you know, "boo-hoo" the grass will always be greener whereever you go. Delayed or not, you'll still be in a better position after 2 years with CTC than any other flying school and if being a pilot really has been a life long dream then you'll be prepared to take a few hits on the chin, moan about it subtly but deal with it. And who's this slating the DA42? I naturally assume you've never flown one before nor do you have any technical knowledge of its design or implementation because if you had your opinions would dramatically change. If you wish to comment on the Twinstar's early failures may I suggest you also research about it's current performance and maybe explain why a leading Univeristy in New Zealand, Royal Thai Air Force and our very own Royal Air Force have all recently placed multiple orders for the type?

So to all you aspiring cadets in the middle of applying or who have already got in to CTC, best of luck to you. As a cadet who's seen the best and the worst of NZ and who today sits quietly in the holding pool waiting for things to pick up (and they will pick up, this isn't the first time aviation has been ball deep in financial difficulty) I can tell you for free that the guys and girls who go through training with the right attitude by just getting on with the job in hand rather than moaning about things they can't control are the people who by far achieve the best results and get the most out of their time here.

As a little motivational boost to these people, I made a little tribute video to the UK phase of CTC training in Bournemouth. Hope you enjoy!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y_G9LlX8bWU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y_G9LlX8bWU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

P.S. We all bitched in NZ, that's just life but ask any ex CTC cadet now who doesn't look back at the NZ and UK phase and say "actually yeah, that was #@$%ing awesome" Oh and any moaning at me and my (experienced) thoughts will go blissfully un-noticed, this is the first time i've been on this forum since the begining of 2007.

Zippy Monster

25th May 2009, 23:47

Living and learning to fly in NZ is a great experience. There are many wonderful times to be had out there, on both the flying and the social front, and CTC is a great place to learn your trade. There are some negative points to the NZ side as well, however, and there's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion about them. I know some of the 'bitching' was fully justified when I was there. To be honest, I don't actually see who or what your complaint is aimed at, other than the comments about the Twin Star. Are you just bored in the hold pool or something?

Oh and any moaning at me and my (experienced) thoughts will go blissfully un-noticed

Interesting line to take, when you've just been banging on about having 'the right attitude' in the previous paragraph. "I've had my say, and I don't care what you think." Did you not bother turning up for the CRM classes at AQC? ;) Hope you feel better after the rant!

TheBeak

26th May 2009, 06:59

I don't really see who the Twinstar comments were aimed at either, really the only things said about the Twinstar were:

The G1000 and the DA42 are fantastic bits of kit

and:

With the new engines however I am sure the DA42 will be fine

With a bit of reasoning why they were perhaps not the best choice for a company that couldn't be further away from the manufacturer. The RAF are nice and close and they bought ONLY two which is not exactly the worlds biggest commitment. As for the others, they probably had a deal made with them - money talks.

So I think your other 'little rant' was unjustified. You have two eyes one mouth, exercise them in that order.

Kerosine

27th May 2009, 23:46

To attempt to bring some focus back toward what this thread was supposed to be for, I thought I would post a list of useful sites I put together in preperation for my interview. I hope any prospective CTC applicants find this useful, it certainly helped see me through phase 3(which now forms the final selection stage).

A couple of caveats to the links below, please note firstly that some links may no longer work due to the list being 7 months old, and secondly the links to documents may not provide you with the latest information, especially when relating to EU/JAR Ops and other regulations.

As a final note, some partner airlines have been added, most notably Easyjet Swiss/Suisse, citijet etc, so with this and the above points taken into consideration, do not rely on this list to cover everything, do the research!

Regulations/Authorities
ETOPS/LROPS - ETOPS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS)
Class 1 Med Vision Standards - http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED_JARClass2InitialVisStds%5B538%5D.pdf
JAA - Joint Aviation Authorities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Aviation_Authorities)
CAA - Civil aviation authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Aviation_Authority)
BAA - BAA Limited - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAA_Limited)
NATS - National Air Traffic Services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Air_Traffic_Services)

Airbus vs Boeing
Competition between Boeing vs Airbus - Competition between Airbus and Boeing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_between_Airbus_and_Boeing)
Difference in Controls - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=267468
Difference between (General) - http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-10294.html

Boeing
Boeing Company - Boeing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing)
747 - Boeing 747 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747)
737 General - Boeing 737 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737)
737 Technical - The Boeing 737 Technical Site (http://www.b737.org.uk/)
737 Even more technical! - SmartCockpit - Boeing 737 New Generation (http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/boeing/B737/)
757 General - Boeing 757 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757)
767 General - Boeing 767 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767)
777 General - Boeing 777 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777)
New Developments (787) - Boeing 787 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787)
New Developments (747-8) - Boeing 747-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/747-8)

Airbus
Airbus Company - Airbus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus)
Airbus Website - Airbus - Welcome to Airbus.com! (http://www.airbus.com/en/)
A320 Family - A320 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A320#A320)
A330 - Airbus A330 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330)
A300 - Airbus A300 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A300)
A310 - Airbus A310 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A310)
A380 - Airbus A380 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380)
A340 - Airbus A340 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A340)
A350 - Airbus A350 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350)
Airbus UK - Airbus UK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_UK)

General Reading/Technical
Flaps - Flap (aircraft) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flap_%28aircraft%29)
Slats - Slats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slats)
Wing Fence - Wing fence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_fence)
Winglets/Wingtip Devices - Wingtip device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_device)
Landing Gear/Undercarriage - Undercarriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_gear)
Gas Turbine Engine - Gas turbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine)
Narrow-Body Aircraft - Narrow-body aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrow-body_aircraft)
Wide-Body Aircraft - Wide-body aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide-body_aircraft)

Control Systems - Aircraft flight control systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_flight_control_systems)
Pratt and Whitney - Pratt & Whitney - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_Whitney)
Fixed wing aircraft - Fixed-wing aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-wing_aircraft)
Open Skies - Open skies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_skies)
Flight Global - Aviation News and Aviation Jobs from Flightglobal (http://www.flightglobal.com/home/default.aspx)

Aerodynamics
Induced Drag - Lift-induced drag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-induced_drag)
Parasitic Drag - Parasitic drag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_drag)
Angle of Attack - Angle of attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack)
Vortex - Vortex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex)
Wake Turbulence - Wake turbulence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_turbulence)

Interview
Difficult Interview Questions - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80197&highlight=Interview

Airlines/Associated Partners
British Airways (Official Website) - Travel Services Information - British Airways (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/informationhubpage/public/en_gb?source=TOP_information)
British Airways (General) - British Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways)
British Airways (Fleet) - British Airways - Fleet facts (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/bafleet/public/en_gb)
British Airways (Destinations) - British Airways - Route maps (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/routeintro/public/en_gb)
British Airways (Environment) - One Destination - British Airways (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/csr-corporate-responsibility/public/en_gb)

Monarch (Official Website) - Monarch Airlines > Cheap Flights (http://www.flymonarch.com/)
Monarch (General) - Monarch Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_Airlines)
Monarch (History) - Monarch Airlines | About Us | history (http://www.flymonarch.com/cnt/about/history.asp)
Monarch (Fleet) - Monarch Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_Airlines#Fleet)
Monarch (Destinations) - Monarch Airlines | Where We Fly | scheduled flight route map (http://www.flymonarch.com/cnt/wherewefly/index.asp)
Monarch (Environment) - Monarch Airlines | About Us | environment & CO2 offsetting (http://www.flymonarch.com/cnt/about/environment.asp)

First Choice (Parent Company) - TUI Travel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUI_Travel_PLC)
First Choice (Travel Firm) - TUI Travel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUI_Travel_PLC)
First Choice (Travel Firm Official Website) - First Choice | Information (http://www.firstchoice.co.uk/info/)
First Choice (Airways) - First Choice Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Choice_Airways)
First Choice (Airways Fleet) - First Choice | Information (http://www.firstchoice.co.uk/info/aboutus/flightsaboutus.html)
First Choice (Airways Destinations) - First Choice Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Choice_Airways#Destinations)
First Choice (Airways Environment) - First Choice | Information (http://www.firstchoice.co.uk/info/aboutus/flightsaboutus.html)

ThomsonFly (Parent Company) - TUI Travel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUI_Travel)
ThomsonFly (Official Website) - Thomson Flights ? all the assurances and service you?ve come to expect from Thomson - Company (http://www.thomsonfly.com/en/company.html)
ThomsonFly (Fleet) - Thomson Flights ? all the assurances and service you?ve come to expect from Thomson - Company (http://www.thomsonfly.com/en/company_1331.html)
ThomsonFly (Destinations) - Thomson Flights ? all the assurances and service you?ve come to expect from Thomson - Destinations (http://www.thomsonfly.com/en/destination.html)
ThomsonFly (Environment) - Thomson Holidays - Greener travel with Thomsonfly (http://www.thomson.co.uk/editorial/press-centre/2006/greener-travel-with-thomsonfly.html)

EasyJet (Official Website) - Flight booking, hotels and car hire - easyJet.com (http://www.easyjet.com/en/book/index.asp)
EasyJet (General) - EasyJet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easyjet)
EasyJet (Destinations) - Where we fly - easyJet route map (http://www.easyjet.com/EN/routemap/)
EasyJet (Fleet) - easyJet.com - Aircraft and fleet information (http://www.easyjet.com/EN/About/Information/infopack_fleetinfo.html)
EasyJet (Environment) - easyJet.com - for green, environmentally-friendly, low emissions, low cost air travel (http://www.easyjet.com/EN/Environment/index.shtml)

Thomas Cook (Official Website) - http://www.thomascook.com/content/about-us/homepage/about-us-homepage.asp
Thomas Cook (General) - Thomas Cook Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook_Airlines)
Thomas Cook (Destinations) - http://www.thomascook.com/content/destinations/homepage/destinations-homepage.asp
Thomas Cook (Fleet) - Thomas Cook Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook_Airlines#Fleet)
Thomas Cook (Seat configurations) - Your Seat. Your Choice. (http://www.thomascookairlines.co.uk/yourseat_yourchoice.asp)
Thomas Cook (Environment) - http://www.thomascookgroup.com/media/tcg_hse_2007.pdf

My Travel (Parent Company) - Thomas Cook Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook_Group)
My Travel (Former Company Info) - MyTravel Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyTravel_Group_PLC)
My Travel (Airline) - MyTravel Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyTravel_Airways)
My Travel (About Current) - http://www.mytravel.com/AniteNextPage.asp?p=ABOUT&xml=DISPLAYPAGE%20&s=787652877
My Travel (Destinations) - http://www.mytravel.com/AniteNextPage.asp?p=SPECIFICPROMOTION_70670&s=78778887
My Travel (Environment) - http://www.mytravel.com/AniteNextPage.asp?p=SPECIFICPROMOTION_63584

Jet2 (Official Website) - Jet2.com | Questions (http://www.jet2.com/questions/about-us.aspx)
Jet2 (General) - Jet2.com | Questions (http://www.jet2.com/questions/about-us.aspx)
Jet2 (Destinations) - Flight Destinations | Low Cost Flights to Europe | Jet2.com (http://www.jet2.com/Destinations.aspx)
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one post only!

30th May 2009, 15:24

Wow! There is preparation and then there is PREPARATION!!

sharpclassic

30th May 2009, 15:36

Well, you could read all that.... or you could just turn up and not be a complete muppet and walk straight (cash dependent) into CTCs open arms.

5 years ago when they were only taking 1.5% of all initial applicants, preparation like that may have been useful but now, I really wouldn't bother!

Ollie23

30th May 2009, 16:38

Sharpclassic has a point. I researched to a similar level of detail to that mentioned above, spent hours and hours preparing. Turned out I could have got away with next to nothing. A few easy personality based questions and couple of very straight forward questions about which types ezy use (which is common knowledge). This was a few months back, I get the impression it was tougher in the past, but pretty straight forward when I went through. And now you don't even have to have the sim check either!!

Viscount812

1st Jun 2009, 21:27

Since when was the sim check requirement dropped then?

TheBeak

1st Jun 2009, 21:35

Since a month ago and probably since they were having to reduce application fees anyway otherwise not enough people were applying and so they couldn't sell their 'wonderful' product I would imagine.

TFlexMax80

1st Jun 2009, 22:46

Now come on Beaky, no-one's selling anything. You're not a customer, remember... :E

TheBeak

2nd Jun 2009, 06:29

True, how can they get away with still saying that in todays market of FlexiCrew? Who on Earth is the customer? CTC?

Alltheway

2nd Jun 2009, 14:30

Dear All,

I have my CTC selection in 2 weeks (ATP) and wondered if you could provide feedback on the numeracy test please?

Type of questions
Conversions needed from memory (KGS to LBS etc...)

Also, if the VOR/RMI style questions still form their computer based testing please?

Any help greatly appreciated.

sharpclassic

2nd Jun 2009, 15:01

cmvidni,

Without being rude or patronising, do you know what your chances of a placement are going in via the ATP scheme?

a320yes

2nd Jun 2009, 15:52

The only thing I find sometimes funny is that everyone talks about the possibilities of placement....and how many cadets are already in the pool.....when really, NO ONE is going to find a job in the near future except if you have 35k to spare, and even that is not for sure now. I´m talking about low-hour guys of course.

So what´s the point really? Why is everybody so critical about CTC and wings ATP? I just don´t see the difference of waiting at home for an interview, or waiting at home while in a holding pool that has placed 100% of its cadets over the years. It won´t give you a job anytime soon, that´s true, but things will pick up someday. The point I´m trying to make is that many people here very kindly "advise" others about the possibilities of employment, but forget that possibilities of employment are impossible anywhere right now.

sharpclassic

2nd Jun 2009, 16:19

The point I'M trying to make is that CTC give preference to Wings Cadets when it comes to placements with airlines. Only when there are not enough Cadets to keep up with demand from the Airlines will ATP pilots get placed.

With a continuous stream of Cadets heading out to NZ, where will there be a gap into which a ATP pilot can be placed?

FrenchScotPilot

2nd Jun 2009, 16:40

Is that true ? ATP pilots don't get placed in order of seniority in the pool but only when cadets pool is depleted ? That means that for ATP pilots to be placed the airlines need to take in more Cadets than CTC output every month.
Surely if this had been explained in these terms to them during selection, very few would have joined the scheme, would they not ?

Regards,

FSP

a320yes

2nd Jun 2009, 16:47

They make it very clear FrenchScotPilot.
But that´s my point, you won´t get a job now, nobody anywere is, but things will pick up and you´ll be in a much much better position than just sitting at home. They´ve placed everyone they´ve had in the pool, that´s what I would value and not the current situation which is exceptional for everyone.

TheBeak

2nd Jun 2009, 19:08

So what´s the point really? Why is everybody so critical about CTC and wings ATP? I just don´t see the difference of waiting at home for an interview, or waiting at home while in a holding pool that has placed 100% of its cadets over the years

So you are going to pay £6500 to hang around in the hold pool? You must be made of money. You'd be better off using it to keep current and renew your licences.

free_hat

2nd Jun 2009, 21:08

ok, hold on, everybody seems to be pointing towards ATP pilots not being placed because the wings cadets get all the placements. Does that mean that people are positive towards the placement situation for the wings cadets?

ie. can I please have peoples opinions on if the wings scheme is still a good move or not?

sharpclassic

2nd Jun 2009, 22:35

Free Hat, we're just saying that seeing as not even the Wings Cadets are being placed at the moment (please feel free to correct me if you know better), then the ATP pilots will be waiting a VERY long time (several years) before they get a placement.

free_hat

3rd Jun 2009, 09:21

Cheers for the reply.

Does anyone know better? Is there anybody who can comment on:

1) if there is a current CTC (wings) hold pool? (i presume yes)
2) How big is it?
3) Are cadets being placed?
4) Are cadets being placed quicker or slower than the rate at which it is sustained by cadets straight out of training? (this is the money question)

Please state your source, this thread is a bit too full of hearsay and thus just promotes confusion to CTC cadets.

Also, I was searching around yesterday and came across a news report in 2003 that said that EZY had signed a 7 year deal with CTC for sourcing pilots. Does that mean that it is now going to run out and the hold pool is going to suddenly expand? Anyone know anything about this?

Thanks!

TheBeak

3rd Jun 2009, 09:57

I can only offer you logic...... CTC certainly aren't placing cadets at 12 a month. They placed 80 at the start of the year - a mixture of new and previously placed cadets. Given they are taking in excess of 150 cadets a year they are going to have a serious overflow. The product used to work because they only took 4-8 cadets a month. Bear in mind also that FlexiCrew cadets that have had a contract will be placed before new cadets are TR'd - or so I am told from reliable sources - can anyone confirm?

The contract is indeed running out in 2010, as to whether it'll be renewed I couldn't possibly comment.

R T Jones

3rd Jun 2009, 10:39

Contrary to hearsay I do believe the contract between CTC and easyjet has been renewed and the relationship between the management is very good. Cadet hold pool is currently around the 60 mark, with yes roughly 12-14 finishing each month. I'm personally not expecting a great deal of movement for the rest of the year, perhaps a few to the charters in the winter. What will happen next year is anyone's guess, I believe NSF made a post in the easyjet holding pool thread and I echo his belief that no one really knows what recruitment needs will be for after the summer. The recession is partly based on confidence and no one has any of that at the moment! There are rumours flying about whether CTC will or will not renew Instrument Rating's if we are waiting more than 12 months for a type rating, I don't know. But as a low hour'd wannabe, I'd prefer to be in the CTC wings holding pool than out on my own.

Alltheway

3rd Jun 2009, 10:57

EZYramper

3rd Jun 2009, 16:15

http://www.ctcaviation.com/pdf/3jun09_Jet_Republic_appoints_CTC.pdf

I wonder what the chance of them taking cadets is?

Ollie23

3rd Jun 2009, 18:34

cmvidini,

I got your PM. The ATP numeracy/aptitude test is identical to the wings one, as far as I’m aware. The wings maths test has been discussed in detail about 20 times over the course of this CTC thread. I also recall I wrote a post on it, with an example, not to long ago either.
You might get a more favourable response on here if you take the time to read/scan through the whole thread instead of posting the same thing repeatedly and spraying off random PMs to people because you can't be bothered to look yourself!

free_hat

3rd Jun 2009, 18:39

Good find buddy. I need to call CTC over the next couple of days so Ill ask about if they intend to take the FO posns from CTC, and if itll be wings or ATP cadets.

Alltheway

4th Jun 2009, 07:30

I called CTC yesterday, Cadets get preference over ATP.

Alltheway

4th Jun 2009, 07:35

I accept some people do not take the time to read the threads but this certainly isn't me. I searched CTC Numeracy tests but found nothing. Wild inaccuracies always seem to bring this site down.

sirvival

4th Jun 2009, 08:00

cmvidini

Ckeck your pm

Alltheway

4th Jun 2009, 08:11

Thanks for your reply. I have both your suggestions already. I was looking for feedback from anyone who has sat them recently.

re: VOR/RMI style indications?

If conversion values are given within the question?

Rollerboy

4th Jun 2009, 08:22

Cmvidini

Looking at your last few posts do you think it wise to continue down the CTC ATP scheme route?

If as you say Cadets have priority over ATP, add this to the current conditions, lack of partner airlines and the huge numbers of cadets either entering or about to enter the CTC hold pool do you think this is a wise idea?

Say you get through stage 2 you will be asked to part with £6000 or maybe more for what is essentially a jumped up MCC/JOT course. Should you be successful it still won't mean a job in the bag I am sure.

Roller

Alltheway

4th Jun 2009, 08:30

Why people continue to offer advice on something I am not asking is bewildering.

Do you know how many cadets are currently in the pool?

Do you know how many pilots are being requested from JEtRepublic?

R T Jones

4th Jun 2009, 10:15

Around 60ish and 0 - As in wings cadets. It seems as a start-up Jet Republic are a little nervous about taking low hour'd cadets at the moment.

Alltheway

4th Jun 2009, 10:17

CTC would not release these figures to me. Would you mind telling me where you got the info from please?

TheBeak

4th Jun 2009, 10:34

He clearly trains there......

I wouldn't get excited about Jet Republic, have you see the state of NetJets?

Alltheway

4th Jun 2009, 10:38

More positive feedback from the beak...Suitable name

sharpclassic

4th Jun 2009, 11:14

cmvidini,

Yes, The Beak is probably one of the most cynical posters on here, but he/she speaks a lot of truth.

If you want to go and spend however many thousands of pounds on the AQC and then sit in the hold pool for YEARS watching cadets who started years after you entered the hold pool get placements ahead of you (WHEN they start getting placements again), by all means, be our guest. :D

Hindsight is a wonderful thing :-)

TheBeak

4th Jun 2009, 11:36

It is a suitable name - thanks.

cmvidini do what you need to do mate, I am not trying to shoot you down. Being in the CTC ATP holdpool will do nothing for you for the next 3 years minimum apart from add to your debt. I know nothing of your financial status or your current employment, so maybe that works for you. Get real though, I am not being cynical, I am being realistic. One day things will improve, but it wont be soon. You are in denial if you don't see that. And for you to really believe that CTC are opening the ATP scheme for anything other than improved resource efficiency, some cash flow and a bit of marketing is insane, desperate and, to be fair, understandable given the painful times we face in the industry.

Don't get tetchy, take some advice.

Ollie23

4th Jun 2009, 11:41

cmvidini I meant you could just read through this thread if you want details, its all in here, you don’t need to search for other threads.

The Beak is telling it how it is I’m afraid, sorry if you don't like what you hear.

free_hat

4th Jun 2009, 11:41

RTJones,

As cmvidini asked, can you please state your source? I have no doubt that you talk the truth, its just that on this subject I think it is important to separate hearsay from fact. Im sure your post is the latter.

If Cadet pilots are not going to be placed at JR then this is an important point as if the EZY contract is not renewed in 2010 (if ezy start pay to fly or CTC felxicrew becomes the norm for EZY than that might be a possibility) and JR is ATP only, then the placement opportunities for wings pilots are low. Now we just need to confirm the facts to say that the above is true.

The thread was beginning to take on a good factual line there! When it does, its useful! Unfortunately there are a lot of overly negative non CTC posters, and overly positive Cadets!

On a separate line, can someone clear something up for me? If a wings pilot is taken on and then not placed, is this worse or better for CTC than not taking the pilot in the first place? ie. up to point of placement, do CTC fork out more than the bond value (69k), and assuming that they will be able to place the cadet which would result in the placement airline paying CTC the delta between the bond and what CTC paid for training?

I ask the question because if the placement opportunities take a vast dip, is it in CTCs interests to reduce cadet intake?

TheBeak

4th Jun 2009, 11:57

The cost to CTC for individual pilot training is NOT more than £69000. Of course they make a profit. There is NO sponsorship. They have an agreement with EZY that they will supply a portion of their FO pilot needs. They would rather place you because they will get a fee for a TR and on Flexicrew a fee for a contract pilot but they do NOT lose anything more than that if you are not placed. Here is a lesson for you because it seems some guys and girls are seeing what they want to see - you are where you are and what is around you is what is around you - DO NOT try and make your surroundings fit the map......if you know what I mean. You desperately want it to be a sponsorship, you desperately want there to be some tie in and buy in by CTC but there isn't. They can use you to sell a complimentary good, yes, but if they don't they have only lost a further sale in the form of a TR. Now it is a plus that they will be trying to make that sale and it is a plus that they do not want to lose there USP in the form of a possible job but it is by NO MEANS GUARANTEED AND IS CERTAINLY NOT TIME SPECIFIC. They certainly would not turn away fee paying trainees on the basis of having a buliding pool, that would be crazy - they are a business. And besides 'there is a pilot shortage looming!'

Be wary of having all your eggs in one basket which I feel is a slight flaw in the training model. As I have said before though, as a cadet it does no harm having CTC have the motivation for an additional sale with in you. Do not base your willingness to join on there ability to place you - 2 years is a LONG time and no one knows what could happen. If you are set on an integrated course, pick one and strongly consider CTC, OAT and FTE.

R T Jones

4th Jun 2009, 13:19

As the beak correctly says I am a trainee with them, I am always slightly nervous about posting too much information on here as it is a public forum. Whether what we have been told is still applicable today is difficult to say, I get the impression that in the airline industry that things change day to day. No further recruitment for the year on Monday may been 50 pilots needed on Tuesday.

There are rumours going around about if and how many of the cadets placed at easy this year will be kept on. Personally I think they will keep some, but I really have no idea how many. This is simply based on my own thoughts and has not been influenced from anything I have heard from CTC.

Perhaps starry eyed and wet behind the ears, but I do believe that CTC are trying to get cadets into airlines. Probably for their own financial benefit rather than the love of us as people, but as I've said, I feel glad that I have them fighting my corner than nothing at all.

One observation I've made is the last time the ATP scheme was opened, it was only open for a matter of days, its been over a month so far. Take from that as you will.

a320yes

4th Jun 2009, 14:59

I just wanted to say again that we are living the worst depression since the II World War, and of course no one is going to give jobs (let alone low-hour pilots) like 3 years ago. I already fly for an airline, and the majority of people I fly with have had to fight A LOT to get where they are. I mean years and years of instructing, building hours in remote places (not just the U.S), lots of financial problems which of course affects family life etc....
I can assure you, that if they had had the opportunity to wait those "terrible" 2 years for an airline job they would have done it extremely happy. They would have saved 6 or 7 years of problems that way...

Zippy Monster

4th Jun 2009, 15:35

There are rumours going around about if and how many of the cadets placed at easy this year will be kept on. Personally I think they will keep some, but I really have no idea how many.

I would personally say it's more likely to be zero - based on the company having stated they are not having any permanent recruitment this year and the fact that there are hardly any command upgrades (and consequently no vacancies freed up for new permanent F/Os.) If they do require any crew in the winter in the short term, I'd suggest they're likely to be on FlexiCrew terms and if they do, it won't be many at all. Just my 2p.

A and C

4th Jun 2009, 17:10

I had a look at the CTC headquaters the other day and I have to say that I was very impressed with the professional way it was all set up.

On the face of it much better than when I started in this game thirty years ago............... and then I started looking at who was paying for the place and had to re think my ideas.

If you have the money CTC (& Oxford) are the "out of a box" answer to the ATPL question, all that is required of you is to turn up and study hard, but make no mistake you are paying top dollar for the plush accomodation.

But if you have the apptitude and are up to putting the thing together for your self the modular way will save you IRO £20,000 I would guess. Yes it is harder to do but I think that you are likely (if you make it all the way) to be a more rounded person and a more experienced pilot.

hi55i

5th Jun 2009, 11:49

My apologies if this question seems a little off the track but couldn't see anywhere else better to post it.

Anyhoo, just wondered whether anyone could give me advice on taking a loved one over to New Zealand for the duration of the CTC training there. She's a special woman who I wouldn't leave for a year and she would love the chance to get some work abroad for a time also :yuk: :).

Can partners live in CTC's accommodation with you or can CTC help arrange other living quarters? What have others done?

Thanx in advance :ok:

Bambe

5th Jun 2009, 12:00

It is definitly possible, some guys here came with their girlfriend (lucky)... When you'll receive the Application Pack you'll find everything relevant inside....

I left mine in Europe and if things were to be done again I would for sure take her with me, it's such an adventure!

Good luck

Ollie23

5th Jun 2009, 14:26

Why would you want to bring her?! You’ll have much more fun out here sans girlfriend!

On a serious note, i know people that have, so its def possible.

iKaresz

5th Jun 2009, 15:32

Hello guys!

I am a 16-year-old Hungarian boy and I'm planning to join CTC wings cadet program. I wrote a mail to CTC but I need a fast answer about the selecting, because I have to choose my science based subject in 2 days. Here in Hungary we have grades from 1-5 (5 is the best) and my question would be wich are the accepted science based subjects (I am planning to get Maths and Biology). Level C means at least sixty percent at high-school-graduation? And I would like to get an answer to the payment, since 60000 pounds is quite a lot money, I heard a solution relating to bancs, that you have to pay only part of that money and the other will be gotten from your future salary. How much is this 'part of the money'?

Thanks indeed

TheBeak

5th Jun 2009, 16:12

I hate to wee on your camp fire but try £77000 and it isn't alot of money relatively speaking for an integrated course. It is about the norm.

I heard a solution relating to bancs, that you have to pay only part of that money and the other will be gotten from your future salary. How much is this 'part of the money'?

I think you have misunderstood the scheme, like MANY others. You pay for it and IF in the incredibly unlikely event you are taken on permanently by ONLY Easyjet beyond the 6 month 'freebie' period then you will be on a reduced salary and your course costs will be repayed over a bonded period.

As for the subjects, do the best you can without going out of your depth. Maths and Sciences are the best bet.

iKaresz

5th Jun 2009, 17:05

So if I'm right, this is the only way to get that method for not paying the whole price together. Well yes, this price is kinda normal but in one piece, it's a lot of money for everyone I think. And then yep Biology and Maths will be great for me :) And this CTC wings program guarantees you a job after the training, am I right?

TheBeak

5th Jun 2009, 17:10

I think I see what you mean - at any flight training organisation worth going to you will not have to pay all the money up front in one go, you will pay in monthly or quarterly installments or at turning points in the training.

No CTC most certainly does not guarantee you a job - no where does I am afraid mate.

iKaresz

5th Jun 2009, 17:13

Yep but that would be the best for me if they would get it from my salary later, because i'm afraid my family can't affor that kinda money in a 'short time period'. So is there any posibility to do this? Sorry i'm a bit confused

TheBeak

5th Jun 2009, 17:34

As I understand it, and please anyone correct me if I am wrong - you will take out a secured loan - secured against something like your parents house and the bank will pay that money, to the tune of £77000ish, to CTC by their payment schedule, whatever that may be. Then, provided you pass the course, which I am sure you would, you would enter a hold pool of trainees. You would then wait your turn for an airline position to come up. If it came up. You would only have a reduced payscale if you went to Easyjet permanently. The reduced payscale because Easyjet would pay back your 'bond' AKA debt (note that I use the word YOUR not CTCs or the airlines). All other airlines take trainees on the same basis as any other FTOs trainees. You will need to find the money up front in all instances I know of I am afraid, we have all had to and it is the case wherever you train. Have you considered the military as a financially cheaper option?

Please anyone correct me if this is not the process at CTC.

iKaresz

5th Jun 2009, 17:38

Military would be cheaper of course, but what I am thinking of is Embry-Riddle. Or there is an other option: doing the PPL and ask an airline to train me. What do you know about this?

TheBeak

5th Jun 2009, 17:58

My advice is, do your school work and wait and see what things are like when you are a minimum of 18 years old. Don't even worry about things now, ALOT can and will change. Give the military strong consideration and keep on investigating all flight schools at your leisure. Good luck.

d41xcs

6th Jun 2009, 01:25

this is for thebeak...

what route did you go down? military or FTO? if you did apply to any FTO's what was the outcome? you have a lot of advice to give on this forum and I'm just interested in your background thats all...:ok:

Bambe

6th Jun 2009, 03:16

For The Beak:

if EZY or any airline partner doesn't keep you after completion of the line training, then you (re)enter the Cadets holding pool until a position is made available.
If you are then employed through the Flexi crew scheme for the next season, you'll be contracted by CTC and paid 210 Pounds a day with 17 paid days guaranteed per month.

However, if(by any chance) EZY hires you on a permanent contract then it will be under DEP T&Cs.

TheBeak

6th Jun 2009, 07:50

Bambe, the three operative words in your post are IF, IF, IF.

d41xcs I went down the FTO route. My advice is just that - to be taken or left at ones leisure.

A and C

6th Jun 2009, 10:56

As we all know airlines are in the business of selling seats, this some are having a lot of trouble doing at the moment so the chances of getting a job are not great.

However the airlines have found a seat that sells at a premium price, it is the one at the front on the right by the window, young hopefuls are flocking to pay for "line trainning" and so just when they have got to make friends with the aircraft they are shipped of to the "holding pool" and another batch of young hopefuls repeat the process.

If I was running an airline I would think it was the next best thing to a national lottery win..................... people paying to work for me!

If all you young hopefuls looked past the glossy brochures and slick marketing of the integrated providers and went modular you would kill this revenue stream for the airlines stone dead and save yourselves IRO £15-20,000 into the bargain.

All this talk of selection and producing the product that the airlines want is so much bull, yes they want the brightest people on the course because if you complete the course they get the most money........... or to put it bluntly failures are not as profitable.

It's just a case of follow the money really!

TheBeak

6th Jun 2009, 11:14

I couldn't agree more A and C.

golfcharlie232

9th Jun 2009, 11:15

The Beak, can you please tell me why you're spending so much time on this thread trying to tell a hundred times the same thing, even if that's true ?
What's the point? What's your goal? Why CTC?
Have you been rejected from the selection process or something?

It's been quite a long time since I read the major threads on here, all depicting a gloomy future for the airline industry.
I honestly am not one of those who believe that getting a job in those tough times is something easy, nor when the market is doing better. However, I do believe that starting training now is not such a silly idea.
What you don't take into account is the background of the guys in here. Of course you cannot, but as you also pointed out, that's lots of "IF" too ...

Who said they wanted a job right after the end of the training?
How do you know people don't have a good fall back or a second job or a way to build hours and wait ?

Lets face it, CTC does not guarrantee a job, right.
But why won't you admit you'd better be in the CTC holding pool than anywhere else at the moment?

Once again, as you said, 2 years time is a long long time.
How do you know the global economic situation will be the same or worse whilst nobody can even predict what will happen tomorrow?

CTC used to place 100% Cadets in the past. Well, yes .. the past is the past. If you pretend that they are not placing 100% cadets now, ok, then show us the figures ...
CTC are placing cadets now, yes they are. And in tough times like these, they are certainly doing better than any FTO.

Is it some kind of competition? You guys want to make the aviation industry look even worse than what it actually is, so that less people are starting training and the more jobs you keep for yourself?
No honestly, I'm just trying to understand.
Some of the issues you're pointing out are relevant, but some are really childish and pointless, or even wrong.

Your answer (like many others) is "Wait!".
I really feel sorry for those who started training in 2006/2007, because people told them to wait until the situation gets better, they did, and where are they now? Well, on the market in the middle of a crisis, because they waited ...
I mean, obviously some comments are good pieces of advice, don't trust everything you read especially when it looks too shiny, but "wait, wait and wait again" is certainly not "the" solution.

That may be a lot clever to start training when things are bad, and to be ready at the right time - although you might have to wait a bit -, rather than starting training when everything goes well, and be done with training when the crisis just starts ...

TheBeak

9th Jun 2009, 12:29

Who said they wanted a job right after the end of the training?

Questions like that show you haven't thought about your argument and are perhaps just looking for an argument. Why else would someone train to be a commercial pilot? Can anyone give an example of training to be a pilot and not wanting to fly as a pilot for a living?

I don't have to justify myself to you, if you don't like what I say, please feel free to ignore it. I have also said I have no problem with CTC at all and they are probably your best bet if you wish to train integrated HOWEVER there also a huge risk attached to their way, that is......complaceny and having your eggs in one basket.

If I was going integrated it would be between CTC and FTE. But I wouldn't go integrated right now.

Kerosine

9th Jun 2009, 12:51

Questions like that show you haven't thought about your argument and are perhaps just looking for an argument.A shortsighted inflammatory comment. Circumstances differ for everyone, there is only a small percentage of cadets who have taken the loans without understanding the implications if things go horribly wrong, a similar proportion for those who believe getting a job will be easy. Please stop treating those who chose this course as ignorant or misinformed. We know the risk.

I don't have to justify myself to youYou don't have to, no, however your numerous comments require justification if you are to not be perceived as a broken record.

TheBeak

9th Jun 2009, 13:01

No you are answering the question 'who said they EXPECTED to get a job at the start'. He or She asked the question 'who said they WANTED a job at the start'.

And no my 'numerous posts' which lead you and others to perceive me as a broken record do not require justification, they are consistent and received as intended by most. They are not done with bad intention and they are not extreme.

golfcharlie232

9th Jun 2009, 13:13

Sorry if it was not quite well expressed.
What I meant is :
Most of the pilots I know who trained either going integrated or modular had to wait a lot to get their very first job as a pilot, up to 7 or 8 years for some of them.
Some still don't have a job.
So when your argument is "at the moment, you're most likely to waste your money because there's no job right now", you're saying (correct me if I got that wrong) that they won't get a job right now, right?
Honestly, if I train with any FTO, and then I am to wait lets say 1 or 2 years, I'll be more than happy.
Your argument is a nonsense, all the guys training with CTC don't even have to wait half of that, they start flying an airliner, and after the flexicrew sheme they have around 700 hr, and can re-enter the holding pool. Go to the USA, and ask the guys there what they can get with only 300 hr ....

What you're looking for is a complete utopic FTO, that trains for less than others, that gives you a job guarantee, with a first job where you earn a lot, and that is able to get jobs even when there's no job ...

If you're trying to open the eyes of the guys here, try to understand how it works first, and then lets admit that the risks you are to take are the same everywhere, and at anytime.
Going modular means you're not facing any risk? Really? Well, that's still £50k, you still have to get through a huge dept if you don't have the money prior of training, and .... less chances of getting hired since you recieve less help from the FTO.
I'm not saying going modular is silly though.
Just pick up what suits you best ...

FlyBoyFryer

9th Jun 2009, 14:42

Just my two pence...

I completed my CPL/ME/IR via the modular route. Although it was my only option given age and financial circumstances, I've never regretted it and throughly enjoyed every aspect. During my hour-building, I got to fly myself around Vegas, the Grand Canyon and other great places like San Francisco. My only regret was paying for a MCC course with CAE which purported to be a Ryanair pre-selction course! However, that's a long story I won't bore you with...

More relevantly, I entered the CTC Wings ATP scheme last year February whilst nearing completion of my IR. The first couple stages of selection happened quickly but I was forced to wait until January '09 before I got to participate in their AQC/JOC. Having passed that, I'm now in the hold pool, patiently awaiting the aviation industry to sort itself out as a result of demanding times.

My points are thus -

My fATPL was achieved via the modular route so it's important to remember that CTC's Wings hold pool is not filled entirely with integrated trained pilots. We (i.e. modular) may be in the minority but we're still a sizeable number.
Previous comments about no ideal time for training are entirely correct. I remember starting my training at the start of 2007 and being told throughout (Bristol GS, hour building, even the start of my CPL) that it was the best possible time to train. How quickly things change!
CTC, whilst nowhere near perfect (I have my own personal queries about some of their communications and policies), are still one of the best providers/options for low hour pilots like myself. Yes, they are a private company which, like any other, has to be commercially successful and profitable. It suffers ups and downs like any other... but they are reputable, established and partnered with very good airlines. Personally, I'm happy to be working with them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but our industry is still a growth industry, no? Pilot recruitment may have slowed down but overall, there's still a natural cycle of pilot retirements (age, loss of medical etc.) as well as new aircraft being bought which means there has to be new jobs, albeit in time and in limited quantities? Whilst the business may have become more cutthroat, I still believe it's possible to succeed given hard work, a diligent approach and making careful decisions!As mentioned before in this thread, one simply has to work with what one has available... for me, that amounts to doing IT contract work, trying not to witter on about aircraft endlessly and gazing wistfully at any aircraft on approach or takeoff from Edinburgh airport. At least I get to keep my hand in, my ratings valid and my chin up.

My parting thought - a bit like the PPRUNE forum, CTC's Wings programme is an invaluable tool to both accomplished and aspiring pilots. It relies on positivity, patience and understanding exhibited by it's contributors. Let's not bash an organisation which has been instrumental in helping a very large number of pilots make their dream come true.

All the best,

FF
P.S. I've always been a glass "half-full" type of person - maybe it's a fault of mine?! :cool:

A and C

10th Jun 2009, 06:49

What did it cost you to get into the CTC hold pool & what have you got in return?

Kerosine

10th Jun 2009, 07:19

Have a word with the Aer Lingus guys.

Or the 60 (or 80?) soon to be newly type-rated and line trained Easyjet crew.
(Before you launch into the intricacies of flexicrew, shall we compare with the newly qualified modular, mostly unemployed, pilots being produced across the world right now, who might I add are also in debt? I suspect this is the lesser of two evils)

TheBeak

10th Jun 2009, 10:02

Ok, CTC HAVE unquestionably been the best in their field, they have a superb record. This is a changing world and what worked then WILL NOT work now, let's see the way things go. I am aware FlexiCrew is their short term answer to this but I do not think it is a good long term fix for those involved. A career is a marathon not a sprint. We shall see. You'd do well to remember -pride comes before a fall.

FlyBoyFryer

10th Jun 2009, 10:21

In reply to A&C:
Initial selection process fee: £200 odd.
AQC cost £6.5K
Well worth the cost given I'd paid over £5K to CAE for their MCC in the past which was a (by far) inferior course and consisted of being shouted at by instructors followed up by being messed about for the Ryanair interview and which entailed a sim-check that was never meant to happen! CAE, if anyone, personify the "take your cash and run" attitude!

In reply to Kerosine:
You've hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. Lesser of two evils indeed! Should I avoid paying CTC and try approach airline companies indepenantly, run the risk of passing an interview, forking out for a TR and then possibly getting the heave ho a mere month later (which has happened to people I know that did their training at the same time as me)?

How about RyanAir where you have to pay for an overly expensive TR, get paid cadet rates for 6months... and then told to wait for a call? This may be unsubstantiated... but can I afford to run the risk??

CTC's sponsored TR may not be "free" in many ways (between the low pay that's offered for the first six months and the cost of the AQC et al.) but critically, it does mean:

I don't need to find £25K-£30 for a TR. Cash is King as they say!
CTC have a vested interest in seeing me pass which RyanAir and other independant trainers may not (... 20 hours in the TR course... "Sorry old chap, you're just not cutting the mustard!" Off you go with neither a partial refund nor anything to show for your efforts!)
As (pray God not IF!) and when the market picks up, I'm in a decent positions with a reputable company who's business interests centre on placing pilots - to that end, someone is working on my behalf trying to find me a job.
I'm in a hold pool but can still explore other opportunities anyway. Surely you agree that's increasing my odds?As I said, maybe I'm a fool for trusting CTC... but I'm of the belief that they are, quite frankly, my best bet and a decent lot! :rolleyes:

Wee Weasley Welshman

10th Jun 2009, 21:31

Train slow, train cheap, train modular.

CTC are quick and pricey.

I spent years pointing people CTC's way. But it doesn't make any sense at all in the current and future situation.

When it does I'll go back to recommending and commending the CTC route.

WWW

TheBeak

10th Jun 2009, 22:01

According to RTJones who is from CTC the current pool of Wings trainees is 60 and that is growing month by month at a rate of 12-14.

Cadet hold pool is currently around the 60 mark, with yes roughly 12-14 finishing each month

There wont be placements until the beginning of next year so it still has a long way to grow. Don't you get placed BEHIND those guys?

Is that true ? ATP pilots don't get placed in order of seniority in the pool but only when cadets pool is depleted

They make it very clear FrenchScotPilot.

Sounds like a bum deal to me for £6700. Hold on to the side because I fear you maybe in that pool for quite a while. Their history is based upon one of the finest pilot employment times in history. Now is one of the worst, be careful of the line you extrapolate. Of course if you have the money going spare then it will do no harm to your chances.

A and C

10th Jun 2009, 22:08

Thank you for your honesty, I do find it rather distubing that you are £6.7k to the worst and all you have to show for it is a swim in a very deep and crowded pool.

I am also distubed to find myself agreeing with WWW!

Sciolistes

11th Jun 2009, 03:12

What did it cost you to get into the CTC hold pool & what have you got in return?
With patience he will almost certainly get his break into the industry through CTC. As you are aware there is very little happening globally right now. The latest news from CTC is 70 placed through flexicrew, 16 permanent placements to Aer Lingus and a number of flexicrew opportunities in the pipeline, especially in Australasia, which is potentially a huge opportunity in itself.

FlyBoyFryer

11th Jun 2009, 11:40

Just pm'ed you Beak in relation to what you posted. :)

TheBeak

11th Jun 2009, 12:39

Cheers FBF I've received it.

a number of flexicrew opportunities in the pipeline, especially in Australasia, which is potentially a huge opportunity in itself.

Don't be shy, what are they? Will they take JAA qualified pilots in Aus,NZ and the pacific Islands? Or are they still 'very much in the pipe line'?

Sciolistes

11th Jun 2009, 14:04

That was just a summary of the news they recently emailed out. However I would hazard a guess Australasia is Jetstar who they already have a relationship with. CTC also mentioned the Middle East and I would guess Fly Dubai, which would also help explain the new 737 NG sim.

R T Jones

11th Jun 2009, 14:42

there are some easyjet SFO's heading over to NZ to fly for Jetstar, only a small number mind you. We've heard rumbles of possible 6 months in the southern hemisphere during their summer/our winter on flexicrew, but nothing of any substance yet.

TheBeak

11th Jun 2009, 14:59

If they are SFOs at EZY it is irrelevant really to the CTC holdpool. In fact it IS irrelevant. If they could get FlyDubai onboard on the other hand that might be of some weight. If it doesn't happen within the next year though I fear for the guys just finishing that the damage might be done. IF it was to happen how cyclical is aviation in the Middle East? Do they have a relatively busy recruitment period in the 'winter' months to ramp up for the 'summer'? Or is it a fairly constant flow? Here's hoping.

R T Jones

11th Jun 2009, 15:14

It is irrelevant yes, just thought I'd mention it as it is to do with the flexicrew. I can't help think that flydubai as a start up, will be a little nervous about taking low hour'd cadets, much as Jet Republic are. The cadets have just been sent an email about IR renewal, the fact they are thinking about this already is rather worrying!

TheBeak

11th Jun 2009, 15:28

I agree, I don't think that FlyDubai or JR will take low houred trainees. Yeah I would imagine an IR renewal is on the cards if the pool is at 60 with 12 cadets a month entering.

Sepi

11th Jun 2009, 15:33

Already? IRs start expiring in August...

TheBeak

11th Jun 2009, 16:00

August? How's that? If the pool is 60 and 12 are finishing a month that takes it back to January.

Sepi

11th Jun 2009, 16:18

You enter the hold pool at the end of AQC, not after IR so if there is a wait between those two phases, your IR expires when you have been in the pool for less than a year

TheBeak

11th Jun 2009, 17:30

That'll be expensive for them keeping everyones IRs current. And I'd say it's going to be almost a certainty for every trainee that finishes for a long, long time given the rate at which the pool is growing and the way the industry is going. At least it is some free flying!

Zippy Monster

11th Jun 2009, 17:51

It won't cost CTC anything. The cadets will be paying. The cost is as yet undecided.

Kerosine

11th Jun 2009, 18:19

It won't cost CTC anything. The cadets will be paying. The cost is as yet undecided.

According to CTC, no-one has yet needed to renew their IR whilst in the hold pool, and have also stated (verbally, admittedly) that they would ensure we were kept current in the hold pool. Can you clarify your source?

R T Jones

11th Jun 2009, 18:29

I can also confirm what Zippy Monster says is correct.

Ollie23

11th Jun 2009, 18:34

Thats what i heard to, unoffically.

TheBeak

11th Jun 2009, 18:52

I told you Kerosine, pride comes before a fall. Unbelievable. By the sounds of it people are going to need to renew in a couple of months unless airlines break the habit of a life time and hire in June-August.

Aren't you all there? Why don't you ALL know?

Zippy Monster

11th Jun 2009, 18:54

Can you clarify your source?

Yep - e-mail from the company.

Kerosine

11th Jun 2009, 19:15

I have not received the email as I am still in New Zealand working through VFR flying. We were given the information about the IR renewals approx 6 weeks ago. Just out of curiosity, when was the email sent? I'm wondering CTC have given us incorrect information or if things have changed in the last 6 weeks.

Edit: Disregard above, I have checked the latest email update and you're absolutely right, apologies for wasting thread space!

Sciolistes

12th Jun 2009, 01:29

I agree, I don't think that FlyDubai or JR will take low houred trainees. Yeah I would imagine an IR renewal is on the cards if the pool is at 60 with 12 cadets a month entering.
Yes, it feels like a long shot but in my experience, there is just no telling. Jetstar has already taken low hour cadets for its Vietnam startup.

Fly Dubai have 50+ aircraft on order, it would not surprise me in the least if they make a beeline for reliable and well trained low hour cheap chappies. Perhaps likewise JR, they may need experienced crew to get up and running, but once the experience guys have developed the knowledge, training and worked through the snags in the operation I don't see why they wouldn't be looking at low hours guys.

As always, it is anybodies guess, arguments for and against, and whatever is in the pipeline will be apparent in due course :)

Flying Monkey

14th Jun 2009, 14:43

Does anybody know what prices they are going to quoting for the renewals yet? Because unless they offer it at least at cost to the unfortunate cadets who are in this position, I think they are showing themselves yet again to be the money grabbing cooperation that they really are. Considering that are partly to blame for the situation that these cadets are in.

Are cadets renewing their MEPs as well?

The other question is that as I am led to believe that the contract only states that they have to keep you in the holding pool for up to a year does anyone know what will happen after the 12 months of swimming are up? :(

Wee Weasley Welshman

14th Jun 2009, 14:50

Smell the coffee people - some of us have been grinding it for well over a year now.

Dozens and dozens of new entrants to the pool each month. NO permanent jobs on the horizon. IR's lapsing and sim skills rusting. It can only end in one mess and there was never anything in the brochure about a job or maintaining currency.

The burden of risk was moved from the airlines to the wannabes and the mechanism was CTC.

Like rampant house prices - everybody won until the music stopped.

WWW

Zippy Monster

14th Jun 2009, 19:34

The question I would ask is what would the benefit be to CTC of dropping people from the hold pool after x months? Even if the pool size was becoming unmanageable, it doesn't alter the statistics:

Cadet dropped from hold pool = cadet not placed, statistics look worse.
Cadet kept in ever-increasing hold pool = cadet still not placed, but still in hold pool so eventually when they are 'placed' (on FlexiCrew or whatever), the statistics look slightly better and CTC save face.

Either way, they already have your "bond" in their bank account by that point, so they don't appear to stand to lose anything by keeping you in the hold pool and appearing to try to place you; likewise, if they ditch you after x months, it might put potential future applicants off and damage the statistics.

The question is how big will the hold pool grow before it really does become unmanageable? I, for one, am glad I'm well out of there.

TheBeak

14th Jun 2009, 19:56

There is a 12 month limit to the hold pool? That's not good news at all. Is there a limit to the hold pool for ATP cadets? If not then why is their the difference?

Flying Monkey

14th Jun 2009, 20:52

I don’t know about the contracts for the ATP cadets, they may be different.
But ever since CTC went integrated they have appeared to be moving away from what they were renowned and respected for and towards the larger scale pilot farm similar to OAT where provided you can afforded the cost then you are in. A concern that was prominent with the cadets even in NZ when iCP was introduced.
As for getting rid of cadets, I do agree with Zippy Monster. However, my concern would be that they introduce a change of priority in the cadet placement pool if people have been in the pool over 12 months. Have any of the cadets had anything in writing about this perhaps in one of their HoW updates? If not, perhaps someone on the staff could clarify the situation via a company e-mail to help ease the stress of holding with a £80 grand plus debt whilst on jobseekers.
Of course, CTC may have some dignity and pride left and be fair to their cadets, considering as I gather, the cadets are not customers:}
But as CTC are now making them pay for renewals I personally wouldn’t trust any of them as far as I can throw them.I'm starting to think perhaps Rob Wren was right to leave as I gatrhered he left because he didn't like the direction where CTC where going (although that is a Clearways rumour).

Bambe

15th Jun 2009, 05:16

How long is the IR valid for?

TheBeak

15th Jun 2009, 06:17

Every 12 months it needs revalidating. So has anyone worked out why contractually ATP trainees might be able to stay longer in the hold pool than 12 months but Wings trainees can't?

Mister McDoo

15th Jun 2009, 16:07

Not sure if a public forum is the best place to discuss the finer points of the contract. Not only is it technically in breach of terms&conditions, but gives those it does not affect more reason to stick their beak in.

The CTC forum is the place for it - there it will be viewed by those who may be able to explain or comment constructively.

TFlexMax80

15th Jun 2009, 16:13

Or deleted by the 'moderators' at the first sign of any insubordination....

Air_One

15th Jun 2009, 16:28

Anyone paying 100k+ would be right to investigate what their likely employment prospects are at the end of it ?

At the moment it sounds like even CTC graduates are still struggling to get placed with airlines ? A real shame - as even 2 or 3 years ago CTC seemed to be a sure-fire route to becoming a first officer, if you got past selection...

Though it would be interesting to hear some confirmation / facts and opinions regarding the current situation for newly graduated CTC cadets ? Unfortuantly if the world and airline economy is in recision then they cant force airlines to take their pilots ?

TheBeak

15th Jun 2009, 16:58

but gives those it does not affect more reason to stick their beak in.

I see what you may have done there Mister McDoo! ;)

Though it would be interesting to hear some confirmation / facts and opinions regarding the current situation for newly graduated CTC cadets

Exactly, it would be a useful measurig stick for all.

Wee Weasley Welshman

15th Jun 2009, 19:48

The vast majority of those placed for the summer will be backstroking in the pool again come October. The potential size of the pool by March 2010 is well into the hundreds.

Check the smallprint. Nothing is guaranteed and nobody has to keep you current. The burden of risk is firmly on the cadet.

WWW

Flying Monkey

15th Jun 2009, 21:01

In reply to Mister McDoo,
I believe that here is the best place to discuss this issue as it not only effects all of the current cadets (holding or otherwise) BUT it also effects anyone considering CTC either for the ATP scheme and it most defiantly effects those youngsters out there who are considering putting their parents house at risk for the Ab-Initio entry.
Otherwise the ONLY way for the potential cadets to realise the potential risk is to pay and then pass the selection procedure.

If the staff at CTC are anything like they used to be when I was there, they would have already have seen these concerns on this thread. Let us hope that there is an answer soon through the official channels or there are going to be a lot of worried cadets.

Zippy Monster

15th Jun 2009, 21:12

Let us hope that there is an answer soon through the official channels or there are going to be a lot of worried cadets.

You're having a laugh, aren't you?!...

Certainly when I was there, getting a straight answer to anything through official channels was pretty difficult.

I agree with the points about discussing stuff here. It's not much use on the CTC forum because relatively few people see it / bother to visit; also, those that are still on the course may be reluctant to speak their minds for fear of 'rocking the boat', so to speak. The same people who moderate that forum have the responsibility for placement with an airline, remember...

Ollie23

15th Jun 2009, 21:43

getting a straight answer to anything through official channels was pretty difficult.

Too right! Nothings changed there. I generally find out about any news on the course/placement prospects etc etc here long before its confirmed through official channels.
I've generally found since my first day at the selection process that trying to get a straight answer out of the management is a futile exercise.

Zippy Monster

19th Jun 2009, 21:50

ultimately its the pilot who needs to convince the airlines that they should employ them

To the best of my knowledge, none of the 30-odd laid off from easyJet and Monarch last year gave the airline any reason to lay them off in terms of their performance. The decision was purely based on economics. The pilots themselves couldn't have done any more.

What exactly is your point?

99jolegg

19th Jun 2009, 22:35

Good point Zippy but ultimately you, nor I, know the details of the staff laid off. Maybe they were 50-60 year olds who thought that it might be a good time for early retirement or maybe decided that a redundancy package was best for them based on factors XYZ in their life.

Are we talking about the same company?

They weren't 50 or 60 year olds, they were miles away from retirement and the only reason they were laid off was financial motivation.

If you read these forums and this thread, you'd find quite a bit of information about them...including some posts from those that were actually laid off.

poss

20th Jun 2009, 05:22

I think we can all agree that the cadets laid off by Monarch and Easyjet were not 50-60 years of age...luckily most did find alternative employments, with and without the help of CTC.
The pool is over 6 months worth of cadets deep and it's getting deeper, now where did I pack that life raft? :sad:

TheBeak

20th Jun 2009, 07:11

ScottFlyer you are in for one hell of a nasty surprise in 2-3 years. What on Earth are you basing your prediction on? You are like a bulls*it sponge, you just soak it up. As always, nothing against CTC but get real, you aren't as smart as you think.

as in 2-3 years there will be a shortage of pilots no doubt

You need to see a shrink.

From past experience interviews are one mechanism. It is here that the employee has the chance to, as they say, wow the employer.

You really think you have done well don't you? YOU ARE IN FOR NASTY SURPRISE fella. I am sorry but I haven't seen anyone so foolish on these threads in such a long time. You aren't even being optimistic you are delusional, insane and possibly on here to annoy people. I can't believe we missed it all - ScottFlyer has found the answer to becoming a pilot!

So according to you there is a pilot shortage looming, the CTC cadets laid off after 6 months were all in their 50s or 60s and it is just a case of wowing in the interview to secure a pilot position. How about getting the interview in the first place? How about passing the TR? How about getting the money in the first place to train? How about having the courage/stupidity to train right now given the economic climate?

No wonder the Labour party might actually get voted back in with people like this in our country. FOOL.

EZYramper

20th Jun 2009, 08:48

Pool is somewhere around 80 at the moment, job prospects for the foreseeable future are far from good.

CTC are entitled to limit your time in the pool to 12 months, although it has yet to happen, is this to be expected soon?

GBB

20th Jun 2009, 08:50

ScottFlyer,

Hmmm, I would advise you to go and have a look at the minimums for FO jobs in the Middle East and rethink....
What you said is NOT going to happen as they ALL have piles and piles of applications from people that are high above their minimum req.
There is no history of ME Airlines taking low hours international cadets (EY as the only one got their OWN international cadets), many ME airlines have their in-house local cadets to be placed.
Im sorry to ruin your party but ME Airlines do NOT need CTC or any other expat cadets! :ugh:

TheBeak

20th Jun 2009, 09:04

It's the 'there will' and the 'no doubt' bit that gets me. Think before you speak, your words might just fall on suggestable ears, like your own, and convince some desperate soul to sign his or her parents home up for £95K worth of debt by the end of the loans term. Wait for the 'No, no, CTC have told me there will be' comment. ScottFlyer I have half a ton of Alsatian sh*t you can buy as well, THERE WILL be very high demand for it in the Middle East NO DOUBT.

Zippy Monster

20th Jun 2009, 11:39

Good point Zippy but ultimately you, nor I, know the details of the staff laid off

Actually I do.

Because I was one of them.

:)

poss

20th Jun 2009, 14:49

If ctc decide to limit a cadets time in the holding pool to 12 months thats a lot of dosh lost on their behalf as they make most of their money through type rating cadets and the airlines paying for it, if they allow people to stew in the holding pool and are able to make money from the IR's going out of date (which they initially said they would pay for in terms of renewals) then why wouldn't they, it's no skin of their backs. They are a profit organisation and at no point do they lead you to believe otherwise.
These are hard times and we all must accept that.

TheTank

23rd Jun 2009, 00:45

This is my 1st post although been reading this thread for sometime now. Was just hoping for some advice from any of you experienced chaps out there.

Let me briefly tell you where i'm coming from - nearly 30 yrs old and worked in finance for many yrs (so know all about struggling industries) wish to do something else with my life so thought that trying something i've always wanted to do might be the way to go. i.e Flying... I understand the industry is crap at the mo and could be for a long while, however doing a job you don't have any love for can be a little soul distroying so very keen to get into this as a new career even if its a steep uphill battle.

Anyway..... Got accepted on CTC course after passing the assesment a couple of months back but have had no joy at all in securing the funding as no security. (big surprise hey). So this route is not looking very likely. However in my endless searching i've realised that in canada i could to go from zero hours to fATPL for approx 15-20k (sterling) which i have saved already. I'm a bit low on details at moment but I'm due to visit family in Toronto in the next few weeks and will look into individual schools when there.

..But can anyone advise whether this route (possibly without TR and placement) would be a worthwhile way to go or not??? I'm guessing i'd still need to shell out roughly 25k for TR on top to get any airline job?

Any tips or comments welcome, Possitive or negative

Thanks guys!

TheBeak

23rd Jun 2009, 05:45

Of course it is a worthwhile way to go. Integrated is not the be all and end all. If you are looking to get a JAA licence then you are going to need to do something like 15-20 hours flying within JAA land and consider where you will do the ATPLs, regardless of doing them distance learning you'll have to fly back a couple of times so factor that in. A TR and job are not included in many courses and it'll be interesting to see if you really have missed out on that aspect of the course with CTC by not being able to raise the funds. These are certainly some of the toughest times they will have faced.

The other thing I would say is you are going to need more than £15-20K, no matter what they tell you. Distance learning ATPL is £2000 plus exam fees, plus flights to Canada and back, plus living out their and here.

I think you are sensible not trying to secure that money. If desperation will possibly keep it that way, don't.

Wee Weasley Welshman

23rd Jun 2009, 06:05

I've done a bit of editing. The discussion about the wider state of the industry, Flight Data Monitoring and so forth was not very much at all to do with this thread topic. It has been transplanted to:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/335548-growing-evidence-upturn-upon-us-66.html

We had an incident of serious thread tangent going on. ;-)

WWW

GBB

23rd Jun 2009, 06:28

TheTank,

I would say that with 15-20k you wont be able to get full training even in Canada (forget about JAA convesions, this will cost you no lees than 15k if all done in UK).
You could probably get FAA PPL, IR/ME and CPL for about 25k with today exchange rate and go try to get a job somwhere in Africa for sometime, but if you want to stay/work in UK/EU all this is going to cost you much more. (I would say about 40-45k)

Good luck

free_hat

23rd Jun 2009, 08:46

Scott,

Best intentions meant, but i would take one giant step back and take a very very good read of all the CTC threads and redecide. Your optimism is very worrying to say the least! No offence but someone who thinks that the 30 laid off are 50-60 years of age is suffering from severe wannabe optimism syndrome (WOS).

Seriously, I dont mean to be rude, and I dont know you, but I advise you to get all the facts and then make a decision based on truth, not optimism. I have been in the exact same situation as you recently and have done some major research on the industry. I dont want anything more than to fly, but I decided not to proceed. If you want reasons then PM me, ill be happy to help.

Air_One

23rd Jun 2009, 12:24

Bambe

23rd Jun 2009, 12:31

They are swiming mate, they are swiming!!! But who's not right now?:O:O

ProPwannabe

23rd Jun 2009, 12:35

As an interest of the CTC cadet program, readin forums and website to research as much as i can about it (which im sure alot of you guys are doing if youre readin this) i thought it might be worth posting the section of FAQ of the ctc cadet program regarding the bond.

What is my liability for the loan I take to fund my bond? (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:;) Whether you provide the bond through bank finance or another source, you will remain liable for the bond. However, on employment with an airline as a pre-selected cadet you will benefit from a contracted commitment to repay the bond through monthly repayments over a set period of time as agreed with your sponsor airline as long as you fulfil your employment commitments. The bond repayments are planned to be sufficient to cover all of your commitment to the loan, if you take one.

If I am pre-selected by an airline, will the airline repay my bond in a single lump sum or in installments? (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:;) The employing airline will normally repay the bond in monthly installments.

The employing airline will normally repay the bond in monthly installments.

As I understand it, YES u have to come up with £69000 which u pay in installments for the Bond. So really its a self sponsored training!? right?

Also if I was to be sucessfully accepted onto the course and have fully completed the training, then get employed by their partner airlines, the bond is then transferred to the airline where the airline will pay you back monthly?
hmm.. im trying to look at the wider picture and looking for the catch. Is there a possibility that they say ok we pay you a reduced salary and the extra savings they make they would use it to pay off some of your bond with your own money?? So all in all you are completely liable for the training costs??

Someone please tell me im wrong.!!

I understand the dangers of making assumptions at the moment, but hopefully someone can point out the advantages of ctc cadet program other than its 'prestigious' name.

for those who like to read the FAQ section of ctc cadet:
CTC Wings - FAQs (http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/faq/details.asp?id=1)

akindofmagic

23rd Jun 2009, 13:23

CTC is a completely self sponsored scheme. In every way, shape and form. There is no element of sponsorship whatsoever. As you have quite rightly deduced, in return for your airline paying you back your "bond" every month, you are paid a reduced salary.

Air_One

23rd Jun 2009, 13:28

It is totally self sponsored. However the big difference is that the employment prospects for CTC cadets (historically) were very good. They claim 100% success rate for placements on their web site.

BUT I am still not sure if that is currently the case ?
Anyone with information ?

Bambe

23rd Jun 2009, 13:41

Let's make it clear, YOU PAY FOR YOUR TRAINING!!!
CTC was prestigious for 2 things :

Providing every successful candidates with an unsecured loan covering training cost + living expenses for 2 years
Its unbeatable job placement history.The unsecured loan is no longer available an we all know what the job opportunities currently are.

When under the normal scheme (6 months line training then employed under permanent contract) the only advantage was that you would get 1000 tax free pounds a month on the top of your REDUCED SALARY... There's never been any sponsorship and every single cadet paid for his training. But that was still a great deal.

Just give it a few months to see what happens next:ok:

TheBeak

23rd Jun 2009, 17:51

Once you have been accepted by CTC you can't defer the place for 2 or 3 years - when the job market might be a little better for job hunting. :rolleyes:

So they put pressure on people to start training now....

Why? If you have met the standard then you have met the standard, your own availability to train is YOUR choice not theirs, it's YOUR money. Beware.

Also if I was to be sucessfully accepted onto the course and have fully completed the training, then get employed by their partner airlines, the bond is then transferred to the airline where the airline will pay you back monthly?

In order for the airlines to 'take on your bond' you would need to be taken on at the end of the 6 months as I understand it. At the moment you'll be lucky to get the 6 months at all.

Just give it a few months to see what happens nexthttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Absolutely, the next 9 months will be very telling for this FTO in particular, in my opinion.

FANS

24th Jun 2009, 20:04

If your heart is set on integrated, I reckon CTC has in the past been the best option by a long way:

- It's been cheaper than the others
- It links with EZY etc has got you straight into the RHS with no upfront TR (yes, I know you work for £1k/month to start with though)
- Its placement track record is outstanding
- It's bond system is a mega tax efficient way that actually saves a lot of money

However, in the present climate, unless you have the money to loose, you'd be barking to start on a course now. Why not wait 12 months for things to become clearer, as right now no airline really knows what they'll be doing next?

One9iner

29th Jun 2009, 22:27

I popped along to Nursling this Sat 27/06/09 for the CTC Wings Open Day. Did anyone else on here do so as well?

If so, what were your thoughts on the day, and the feedback provided re: holding pool, loan/bond detail changes, marketing bumf, employment prospects, holding pool, flexi contracts etc..?

I found the day enjoyable, and felt I gathered a good amount of different opinions from different sorts of people;
e.g.
- fellow wannabe's
- wannabe's who had failed selection a while back but invited back to re-apply, but chose to only do so a while later due to the market
- additonally opinions of some current students (yes I know they will have been briefed to say the right things, but there are ways and means to extract real honest feedback from these good and honest at heart people)
- The career and industry advice women were also very informative and came across as very genuine and honest. Clearly with a CTC bias, but I felt feedback was of value.
- I also have feedback from a friend currently in CTC Bournemouth, which adds validation (or not so) to info I was fed.
- Again, having family members flying within a Heathrow based long hall fleet, who have been through the CTC ATP ladders, it becomes a fairly easy process to filter through the PR, and the true message.

If you went, let me know what you thought of the day!

Please note this is not an invite for people such as 'TheBeak' or should I say 'TheBLEAK' or 'WWW' to repeat their same message, which has already been heard, researched & understood, yet continued and hammered into every mind of any decently researched and sound thinking young wannabe who frequents Pprune!!!!! why do a few individuals feel they hold the responsibility of advising the whole global fATPL wannabe community from making a mistake?!?! Get over yourselves. :ugh:

TheBeak

30th Jun 2009, 05:58

Please note this is not an invite for people such as 'TheBeak' or should I say 'TheBLEAK' or 'WWW' to repeat their same message, which has already been heard, researched & understood, yet continued and hammered into every mind of any decently researched and sound thinking young wannabe who frequents Pprune!!!!! why do a few individuals feel they hold the responsibility of advising the whole global fATPL wannabe community from making a mistake?!?! Get over yourselves. :ugh:

I don't need your invite and you wouldn't get a say in the matter in what I wanted to say. At the very least I am consitent unlike some others who chop and change with the wind.

every mind of any decently researched and sound thinking young wannabe who frequents Pprune

Pprune doesn't exist just for you, there are other people in the universe who do ask for advice. And here is something that might surprise you, not everyone that wants to start is 'young' and not everyone can speak to their 'family members flying within a Heathrow based long hall fleet, who have been through the CTC ATP ladders' - so you have more than one family member who went through ATP and are now flying from Heathrow long haul? Jolly good - sounds like generic, un-factual junk spewed for the sake of it. Remember, it'll have been a different time when they did it, if they did it. If they can really recommend you do your training now then they either don't like you or are sick of your questions and don't care.

but there are ways and means to extract real honest feedback from these good and honest at heart people)

Oh clearly an ex-Army Intel officer. What did you do, attach 20000 Volts to their nuts? If ever anyone has been too sure of themselves I think you'll find it might be you. You are almost certainly in for a nasty surprise. Tread carefully 'One9iner' or should I say 'doomed wannabe'.:E

I have said it a couple of times now, you'd be crazy to commit to CTC without seeing if they actually place some of their apparently huge hold (and building) pool over the next year. If they don't and you're in then it's an expensive mistake. If they do and you're not then you know that they are as good as they say they are and their selection is worthy of taking your money. If they can do it now then they CAN DO IT. If however you have the money and just want an integrated course then fill your boots, I am sure their training is as good as any and perhaps better.

Zippy Monster

30th Jun 2009, 14:01

So what exactly DID they say? What was their message with regards to the holding pool, loan/bond detail changes, marketing bumf, employment prospects, holding pool, flexi contracts etc?

Perhaps those of us that have been through the system and been spat out the other end, have experience in the airlines and a bit more of an idea how things are going than when you're inside the CTC 'bubble', as your mate is, might be able to help you unpick the carefully-chosen words of PR.

why do a few individuals feel they hold the responsibility of advising the whole global fATPL wannabe community from making a mistake

I hope you won't be in a position where you will have a >£60k loan to service, with no means of paying it back. Sadly, many will. You won't understand what it's like until you're actually there. It's important to make people realise just how much of a burden and commitment it is. Many don't realise and happily sign on the dotted line, riding on a wave of feel-good fuzziness from the FTOs' nice PR. I include myself in that.

One9iner

30th Jun 2009, 15:33

Beak.

Once again, a hugely presumptuous response.

Am I young? No. 26. Not old. but not a spotty teenager :eek:
Do I have more than one family member who has been through the CTC ATP mill? Yes
Am I weighing up my options, and researching all possible routed to license? Yes
Do I need a lecture from you about how ‘I’m in for a big shock’? No

Should I take what you say with a pinch of salt? Yes, more like a wheelbarrow load!!

Zippy,
There wasn't any of the "this is a great time to begin training" rubbish that I've heard from other FTO's desperate for your cash.

After a number of 'workshops' and a presentation by the guy who heads the Wings programme, (is it Tim? His name has escaped me at the moment) I approached him and asked a few questions;

Q. How large is the holding pool and at what rate is it growing.
A. Holding pool is around 70 or 80 at present but growing. Things aren't ideal.

Q. What is the situation surrounding the Easyjet flexi contract guys? After 6 months do they return to the holding pool, if so how long will you allow people to remain in the pool, without employment for until you turn your back on them?
A. They will return to the pool, we have not turned our back on anyone, and are not planning on doing so. You are an extremely valuable asset to us.

Q.What are you hearing from the market in terms of employment, who's hiring, who's looking to begin hiring in the next 2 years etc..?
A. BA we think are looking to begin hiring around April 2011. But not on any major volume.

Please note, I have not been through the CTC system, yet, and therefore know a lot less than the guys who have, and what I have written here is simply what was said.

Please also understand I am not planning on beginning training without any back up plan to pay back the bond if employment can't be found straight after completion. I'm also not planning on relying on 'Mummy and Daddy's' home to borrow against. I have my own property to gamble with:ok:

TheBeak

30th Jun 2009, 16:02

Beak.

Once again, a hugely presumptuous response.

No it wasn't.

Am I young? No. 26. Not old. but not a spotty teenager http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

When did I say you weren't young? You were the one who said:

decently researched and sound thinking young wannabe

I was merely saying not everyone is 'young' that wishes to commence training. You were the presumptious one on this account.

Do I have more than one family member who has been through the CTC ATP mill? Yes

I didn't say youi didn't. Again no presumption. And for the record it's long haul not hall. Easily made mistake though, just brought up to wind you up.:ok:

Am I weighing up my options, and researching all possible routed to license? Yes
Did I say you weren't?

Do I need a lecture from you about how ‘I’m in for a big shock’? No

I don't care, as I said PPRUNE is read by many more people than you and responses apply to all people.

If the questions and answers you received are sufficient for you then go for it YOUNG man, it sounds like you have it sorted!:E

Kerosine

30th Jun 2009, 16:26

Children, please!

:ugh:

Mikehotel152

30th Jun 2009, 17:44

Q.What are you hearing from the market in terms of employment, who's hiring, who's looking to begin hiring in the next 2 years etc..?
A. BA we think are looking to begin hiring around April 2011. But not on any major volume.

:eek: And that's the best news he could give you!?

Not much of a crumb of comfort to the 80 people in the pool! They'll be growing beards behind the counter at McDonalds by then!

Rollerboy

30th Jun 2009, 20:29

This makes fantastic reading, TheBeak always impresses me with his/her response sadly I feel very few posters on here will take much notice. Guys start to think long and hard about this career before jumping. Remember CTC are a business and want your money, with 80 or so people in the hold pool it will be a long time before you see a return.

Oh and is long hall the tunnel with no light at the end of it?

Roller

misterapilot

1st Jul 2009, 01:55

I went to the CTC open day too. This is what I heard:

Q. How big is your holding pool?
A. Around 50

Q. How many graduate from CTC cadets a year?
A. 168

Q. What happens to EZY pilots after 6 months if they are not taken on?
A. Go back to swimming pool and stay there. There is no time limit.

Q. Employment?
A. BA won't be hiring until 2011, but then they will need 400 pilots

Q. Finance?
A. HSBC stopped unsecured loans, but there are still ways to get the money.

Few interesting comments by the staff:
1. There is a shortage of pilots, just not here in Europe.
2. We all have seen this before - this industry goes in cycles and it will be up soon.
3. It's a good time to start training. Downturn always is.

Draw your own conclusions!

In general, had a very nice day. Had a go at A320 full sim - it was great.

One9iner, that guys name was Lee Woodward

GBB

1st Jul 2009, 06:04

That shortage of pilots must be on the moon I guess... :ugh:
I know what sort of $hit they feed these CTC wannabes with... Telling them that in countries like Vietnam theres not enough pilots. I heard my self one CTC studnet telling annother guy that even in such a bad times you can still get a job on a jet in places like Vietnam and live "like a king" over there. I do not say that all CTC are as much naive as this guy but just ask you self what would you say/do to wannabes if you were to be in the schools owner shoes???
Yeah, right :ugh: There might have NOT enough LOCAL pilots in Vietnam as people over there have no ways/money to train, but just have a look at their minimums.
Stop listening to all the rubbish that CTC people are telling you, of course they not going to tell you that once pool gets too big and people are there for too long, they will be removed (this might happen at the end of the day).

TheBeak

1st Jul 2009, 06:19

Thanks Rollerboy and I agree GBB.

Q. How big is your holding pool?
A. Around 50

Q. How large is the holding pool and at what rate is it growing.
A. Holding pool is around 70 or 80 at present but growing. Things aren't ideal.

Now I don't know but given a a month and a half ago someone said it was at 80 and 12-14 were finishing a month you can probably add the two together and you are nearer the mark. How can they offer such discrepancy? Based upon:

Q. How many graduate from CTC cadets a year?
A. 168

you should be able to predict the future growth.

Q. Employment?
A. BA won't be hiring until 2011, but then they will need 400 pilots

That is just laughable.

1. There is a shortage of pilots, just not here in Europe.

The likes of Singapore Airlines don't seem to think so. What a joke.

2. We all have seen this before - this industry goes in cycles and it will be up soon.

Define soon. 5 years? Then maybe they are getting near the mark.

3. It's a good time to start training. Downturn always is.

So when's a bad time? Because 2 and a three quarters years ago I was told that it was a superb time to start training and that was in the AMAZING times.

It's not just CTC, it's all the Integrated FTOs. They shouldn't have to sell you pilot training or it's timing, only the reason to do it with them over someone else.

Sky Wave

1st Jul 2009, 11:18

TheBeak

You seem a little bitter and twisted. Has CTC rejected you in the past? You seem to really have it in for CTC and it appears to be your personal mission to stop as many people as possible going there. You should focus your energy on positive things as positive people are far more happy than negative folk.

We are in very difficult times, people are losing their jobs in all industries and the airlines are no exception. With this being the case it's understandable that the wings pool will be swelling, but they've been in this situation before. In early 2006 the pool was empty and people were going straight to the airlines as soon as they completed their training (and I mean the very next day) but by June of 2006 this stopped and by November there were about 80 people in the pool. All of those 80 people got permanent jobs in 2007.

I personally believe that if you have the ability to make it as a commercial pilot CTC is the best place to go. I say this for 2 reasons. 1, having been the safety pilot for a brand new CTC Cadet on the 737 I can tell you that he was fantastic and I've heard similar stories from other pilots so I do believe that their training is very good. (I was an ATPer so wasn't trained by CTC) Secondly nearly every other first officer and numerous captains at easyJet are ex CTC, there's hundreds of us. I'm not sure where I'd be now if it wasn't for CTC but no other companies were answering my letters or acknowledging my CV despite the fact I had a fATPL. I honestly believe that I'd still be doing my old job.

Easyjet cannot afford to take on new pilots at the moment as they are struggling with seasonal issues, they have too many pilots spare in the winter and not enough pilots to run the summer programme. That said, they still have loads of aircraft on order and as soon as the market turns they will once again have a huge appetite for new pilots. Where do you think they will turn to when this happens? CTC and easyJet have a very good relationship and I'm sure many future cadets will go to easyJet and when easyJet decide they want pilots for permanent contracts they will keep their Cadets rather than training new pilots.

The only question really is when to start training (regardless of whether you train at CTC or not). Nobody can answer that because even the best business minds cannot agree on when the downturn will end. All I can say is I'd like to be in that pool when the market picks up and not 18 months of training away from it. You are suggesting 5 years which is in keeping with your negativity, my guess would be a year but then I'm usually very positive and I suspect neither of us have any basis for our predictions.

SW

GBB

1st Jul 2009, 11:55

SW,

I dont think anybody here is questioning the quality of the training you will get at CTC, but thats NOT the point.
Its 2009, not 2006 and the story will be totaly different this time around!
The point is that people listen way too much to marketing rubbish of FTOs (not only CTC but many others) and TRUST them with 70-80K like there is no tomorrow. :ugh:

TheBeak

1st Jul 2009, 15:42

TheBeak

You seem a little bitter and twisted. Has CTC rejected you in the past? You seem to really have it in for CTC and it appears to be your personal mission to stop as many people as possible going there.

Hmmmm I don't know where you have that from?

For example I said:

It's not just CTC, it's all the Integrated FTOs.

And have said the same throughout.

And to say I am bitter and twisted? That's a bit strong. Someone doesn't really understand the words they are using......

I could by the same token say that you seem to have taken it all a bit too personally, you aren't a stake holder are you?

1, having been the safety pilot for a brand new CTC Cadet on the 737 I can tell you that he was fantastic and I've heard similar stories from other pilots so I do believe that their training is very good.

If you have only been safety pilot for ONE then you can hardly judge their output can you. I am really impressed that you were a safety pilot though so well done for getting that in. And besides I don't sispute they are probably VERY good at training pilots, as shown before by:

I am sure their training is as good as any and perhaps better.

What you are suffering from is a serious perception issue. As I said you seem to take it all too personally.

Northern Rock, RBS, AIG et cetera were all fantastic, successful companies that all thought they couldn't go wrong, they kept on pushing their product and being risky. So your point about their past is largely irrelevant as pointed out very nicely by GBB.

I have always said I do not know the detailed ins and outs of CTC but I don't like marketing in the wrong way. All FTOs are very guilty of it. YES they should sell their ''training solution over another companies like OAA and FTE but NO they should not sell (force) the timing or be selective about the facts. No FTO should be, but they all are. Be under no illusion, there is NO PILOT SHORTAGE ANYWHERE nor will there be for a good few years. Take it or leave it.

If you are hell bent on doing pilot training via the integrated route then CTC should certainly be one of your top contenders.:ok: Happy now Sky Wave?:E

Artie Fufkin

1st Jul 2009, 18:16

Quote:
TheBeak

You seem a little bitter and twisted. Has CTC rejected you in the past? You seem to really have it in for CTC and it appears to be your personal mission to stop as many people as possible going there.
Hmmmm I don't know where you have that from?Seriously??

:confused:

TheBeak

1st Jul 2009, 18:18

Yeah seriously Fufkin, if you can't see it then you are delusional.

pilotguy08

2nd Jul 2009, 00:18

I was at the open day on Saturday and thought it was pretty fun and informative, although can anyone enlighten me as to what the four questions your asked to reply to before attending selection relate to, will they be questions like "Give an example of a time you worked as a team" or "Why do want to be a pilot". Could anyone tell me what questions they got perhaps. Thanks.

99jolegg

2nd Jul 2009, 04:57

Yep - pretty much as you described, just example based questions. Fairly straight forward if you put some time into them.

Rollerboy

2nd Jul 2009, 10:05

Skywave

As a fellow pilot do me a favour and take off your rose tinted glasses for a minute.

No one is questioning the training CTC provide I am sure it is every bit as good as any other FTO/TRTO. We are however questioning some of the dubious information that seems to be getting banded around on this thread. CTC worked for you and for some years it worked for many other pilots but unfortunately as the old addage goes 'every dog has it's day' and as far as myself and others on this thread are concerned this dog has had it's day.

Ok things may pick up in the future but how can numbers like 400 pilots be banded about, BA don't even know how many pilots they need in 2010! How CTC know is a mystery to me.

The views on Pprune are just that, peoples views and we all have different ideas, sometimes they clash but we all have one thing in mind, and that is to help others.

Roller

Sky Wave

2nd Jul 2009, 10:21

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there's life in the old dog yet.

What You, Me, CTC, BA or Easyjet do not know is when things will pick up, but when they do pick up I think the CTC scheme will be every bit as good as it was 2 years ago.

My personal opinion is that when things do pick up, airlines will look to expand and will want pilots yesterday. I accept that there are a lot of pilots that have recently been made redundant that may initially fill some of these vacancies but airlines need to get their demographics correct so they will no doubt also turn to low hours pilots. The lucky people will time their training just right and will be fully qualified and ready for a type rating just as this situation comes about.

It's just my opinion, rose tinted or not.

Rollerboy

2nd Jul 2009, 10:55

Skywave

Agreed there will be an upturn eventually and there may well be life in the old dog yet. I just feel that CTC have in the past provided a good product when required at the right time, it may not be able to replicate it's past success when things pick up. That's not me having a go at CTC it's just my feelings on the current and future situation.

You have hit the nail spot on the head on two points; the first being the number of rated and high hours pilots currently on the market, many will almost certainly find jobs before cadets from any FTO. Secondly you mentioned the lucky people that's just it in the near future you need to be lucky.

High prices, high debt for not so high flying.

Roller

Sciolistes

2nd Jul 2009, 12:05

What You, Me, CTC, BA or Easyjet do not know is when things will pick up, but when they do pick up I think the CTC scheme will be every bit as good as it was 2 years ago.
I agree. I would also add despite the problems (and everybody in the industry is feeling it right now) CTC seem to be placing quite a few considering the circumstances.

Regardless of the passion of the posts by The Beak, WWW, et al, they do not know what is around the corner. As for any many CRM scenarios, you are all going to have to work with incomplete information to come to your decision and give due regard to all opinions regardless of how loud some maybe shouting.

TFlexMax80

2nd Jul 2009, 14:36

BA know exactly how many pilots they need in 2010 - Zero!

EZYramper

2nd Jul 2009, 14:40

Q. Employment?
A. BA won't be hiring until 2011, but then they will need 400 pilots

Ok things may pick up in the future but how can numbers like 400 pilots be banded about, BA don't even know how many pilots they need in 2010! How CTC know is a mystery to me.

To expand on this a bit...

Charlie Maunder from BA met with CTC cadets last Friday.

He said that BA were not anticipating any hiring until around April 2011. When asked how many pilots they were likely to need, he said something along the lines of: The need could start off as just a trickle of pilots, going up to around 400 pilots a year if/when recruitment gets going.

He did point out a couple of times that the subject of recruitment was more of an 'if' then a 'when' and that they were in a struggle for survival.

TheBeak

2nd Jul 2009, 16:06

The problem is Sky Wave, you're advice is all rather generic and without timescale. Goals and plans muct be time specific and WITHOUT QUESTION now is a dreadful time to start training. I read somewhere that OAA are having to put on an extra course because so many people are training. So not only is the economy screwed but there are EVEN more people to compete with. As for the luck, there is no point trying to guess that, you either will be or you wont, and, you WONT make your own luck contrary to popular belief which is why the concept of fairness is flawed. The word doesn't exist in my vocabulary. Balance does however and training now you will inevitably end up with a seemingly imbalanced outcome i.e. lots of work for no reward.

waco

2nd Jul 2009, 16:49

Will BA be around in 2011?

GBB

2nd Jul 2009, 17:02

I heard CTC is "selling" their MCC course + FULL pool for over 8k. :eek:
I have to say if this info is real, some of you should open your eyes and this should be an indication to you how desparate for money they have to be!
They know that people paying so much money for MCC wont be able to get any job and will be out of their pool in 12 months anyway. This really shows what they have their current/future students for... FOOLS, isnt it?
And for GOD sake... All you that finished your training 2-3 years ago, I do congratulate you on your jet jobs, but THINK before you advertise to any wannabe about going to CTC now.
Times has changed and spending +70k right now will make CTC happy ONLY! Theres nothing in for you! :ugh:
80-90 (is it?) cadets in their pool should speek for it self, but I guess it doesnt...:yuk:

sharpclassic

2nd Jul 2009, 17:18

Err, yes BGG, it's called the ATP Scheme and has been around longer than the Cadet Scheme.

FrenchScotPilot

3rd Jul 2009, 11:06

Could anybody quote any official reference to these 12 months ?
Best regards,
FSP

TheBeak

3rd Jul 2009, 15:16

Not sure if a public forum is the best place to discuss the finer points of the contract. Not only is it technically in breach of terms&conditions

From an earlier poster, so I don't imagine you can get anything official on here. I wonder why it is all so TOP SECRET?:confused:

I have however heard that mentioned on here many times, I don't think that is a big secret.

Mister McDoo

3rd Jul 2009, 17:20

Top secret? Not at all...

Anyone trawling a rumour forum for official information frankly needs their head read. Anyone can write anything, for whatever reason. Granted, it is useful for picking up information here and there, but seriously...:rolleyes:

TheBeak, I'd love to know your story old chap...

TheBeak

3rd Jul 2009, 19:52

TheBeak, I'd love to know your story old chap...

Unlike FTOs I don't have a 'story'. And who says that I am a chap?

I wasn't intending anything other than pointing out to FrenchScotPilot that he or she may not get a response due to your earlier point of it being in breach of contract for anyone with 'official' information to share it. I don't see why the contract would be so secretive either, anyone intending on signing up has to see it. You can't hide things in contracts, both parties must have full knowledge and understanding to sign it. I can understand if it was joining a company and not discussing salaries et cetera but it isn't, perhaps someone can explain.

As for my background Mister McDoo old bean......I trained at a large FTO modularly, flew the NG and now no job. And I don't see why I should have to go to the likes of Nigeria to use my licence - family or flying? Family has never let me down and flying has done nothing but......I now would like to offer my advice, for what it is worth, to anyone who may wish to listen. Why CTCs page? Because the company is like the sirens to Odysseus and because it is the only FTO thread that people seem to speak on. It is also a good indicator of the industrys next steps and things like a building holdpool and trainees from this particular FTO having to renew IRs worries me.

Happy?

There very genuinely is no nasty alterior motive to anyone or any FTO.

mike172

3rd Jul 2009, 23:53

I applied for the CTC Cadet scheme a few days ago. Got an email today telling me that I don't meet the criteria and therefore will not progress.
Looking at the criteria set out on their website though, it seems I do meet it.

I have the right to live and work in the EU
I have 5 GCSEs including Maths, English and Science at grade C or above
I have the equivalent of 3 A-levels at grade C
I'm fluent in English

I don't get it. Maybe the A-levels? It does say preferably in maths and a science subject. Mine qualifications are in business. But 'preferably' is not the same as 'must'.

Anyway I emailed them and they said they don't give feedback on individual applications.

I'm not too bothered if I'm going to be honest, but I was just curious as to where I don't meet the criteria.

Bambe

4th Jul 2009, 03:46

Sorry to hear you didn't pass the screening process. It's kind of a secret and nobody can really tell what you need to go further in the selection.
But it shows at least that CTC is not that desperate to find people and money as we can read so often...

16 new guys arrived yesterday, the biggest CP ever (according to them). I can't tell anyone to go for it now as times are really bad but see what happens to those currently flying the summer season with EZY and you'll have a better idea of wether to proceed further or not.

CTC is for sure a good training provider, but what makes it different is definitly its contact within the industry... Let's just wait few months to see what happens, that would be my advise.

air_wolf

4th Jul 2009, 14:24

Beak - sorry to hear you're out of a job, nightmare situation I wouldnt wish on anyone. As an ex-CTCer though, I do disagree with a few of your comments. CTC, for all its flaws, is a good training provider run by good people. Sure, it has all the glossy marketing brochures and will always talk-up the industry, but what else would you expect. Every company from every industry does this. Its ultimately up to the cadet to wade through all this information and reach a decision if/when to commence training. Im sure wannabes are grateful for your point of view, but I would balance this by saying that when the industry shows signs of picking up/recruitment, I think OAA/CTC etc is the way to go. Usually in life you get what you pay for - flight training is no different.

GBB

4th Jul 2009, 15:42

air_wolf,

Everything is nice, but...
You probably finished your training and went straight into soem jet job, so everything look nice in good times. Everybody is happy and its seems like its good value for money.
I guess we will see how good/bad CTC is in max. one year time when there will be 250-300 people in their pool with some close to 2 years mark and getting ready for their 2nd IR/medical (dont know who is paying for it)
Do they actually keep them for 2 years or even longer?
Might be actually sooner if they keep them for one year only.

air_wolf

4th Jul 2009, 16:01

i agree, being in the hold pool must be extremely tough. but then again, i've got mates who've gone modular, cant even get a sniff of a job and have plenty of debts themselves. in these tough times i'd still rather be sitting in the ctc hold pool than looking for a job by myself. whichever training route people have chosen, they will still be looking at IR/medical renewals themselves. its not particular to ctc.

its all about timing/luck. thats why i mentioned "when the industry picks up" ctc/oaa is still the way to go. just my opinion, sure there are many people who disagree.

lets just hope things turnaround quickly (and this :mad: government doesn't press ahead with the airline passenger duty increases).

pilotguy08

5th Jul 2009, 00:50

pilotguy08

5th Jul 2009, 00:54

Can you reapply after being turned down at application? Are you 100% sure your A-level equivalents are actually equivalent?

99jolegg

5th Jul 2009, 05:56

It can't be that simple, the interview lasts approx 40 minutes. I'm expected to talk 10 minutes about each question and what if I get asked 4 "weak" questions not really fair... Have you been through the interview?

If the process is the same as when I sat it, then you will receive 4 questions by email. Answer the questions and send them back to CTC. They then use these answers as a basis for the interview to build up a picture about you. They won't ask you the same question as it was written when you answered it.

The initial questions are along the same line as those that you have already hinted at. Your interview will then be partly formed around those questions and your answers. They may even ask you for examples (in the interview) that you haven't already mentioned in your written answers.

Like I say, that's unless they've changed things drastically since I went through selection.

Good luck!

Wee Weasley Welshman

5th Jul 2009, 21:00

air wolf - why would you choose to be more in debt but be in the CTC pool than less in debt and be a free agent on the jobs market?

It just doesn't make any sense.

Its expensive to get in the pool. They only talk to part of the market. You are free to talk to the whole market. Others in the same pool will be given priority above you.

****ty sounding deal to me. Nice brochure though. And loads of ex-training captains in Southampton who'll tell you all about the industry.

As it was.

Ten years ago.

Which is a lifetime.

Most of the CTC instructors are a bit sad if anything. Retired Nigels with a couple of divorces to fund, low cost training captains who thought they'd found a way to a 1970's BA lifestyle 30 years on, or, really crusty types who were swept along Cranwells halls back when it was easy.

WWW

air_wolf

5th Jul 2009, 21:32

WWW - think we've done the whole ctc/oaa vs modular training argument before. each has their advantages, comes down to personal preference at the end of the day.

your description of the instructors at southampton did make me smile. you ever thought about applying?;)

EvelcyclopS

6th Jul 2009, 08:41

I haven't been on this forum for what must be a few months now... if you ont mind, i'll briefly summarise my thoughts...

last june i graduated from university with a 2.1 hons in microbiology. i had always liked the idea of becoming a pilot, and in my last year at university, is started researching the means to achieving the job... july came, and i applied for the CTC Wings course, having inquired about it some 2 years earlier and after reading just about every thread on this forum regarding CTC, they seemed like the best FTO - i passed Stage 1, no suprises, i had what i needed in this respect...I was still skint from a tortuous final year at uni, so gathering together the 200 odd quid to book stage 2 was a challenge, and at the time, it went against logic to do it, as the little voice in my head said;' statistically, you have approx 2% chance of being selected, and you are going to spent mor ethan you're last pennies on a subjective selection?'... regardless i booked it...

While signing up to science recruitment agencies and going to interviews for graduate jobs, i studied, ****ing hard, my phase 2 was on september 9th/08, and that gave me 2 months to absorb as much info regarding the aviation industry as i could. I bought and read books, sent emails out to every flight operator and airport in the country/region requesting work experience (with little joy thanks to religous extremism). I bought maths books and every night i spent hours just doing arithmetic as i knew that this was the weakest chink in my armoury. i had never flown a plane before, so i sold some of my belongings to get a few hours on my logbook and instantly knew i was doing the right thing. i spent an open day at newcastle's brand new ATC operation, and boy was that a great day. even on the journey down to southampton, i flew with easyjet one way, i could only afford the plane ticket there, so i could quiz the pilot after we reached stansted, i took the megabus back on a journey from hell...

The phase 2 was gripping... i arrived in southhampton the day beforehand, as i live in newcastle, so had a bloody long way to go, and wanted a good night's sleep - the facilities at the manor were spotty dog, everyone was freindly and the bed was very comfortable, but bugger me - was i nervous.i sepnt all night doing mental arithmatic, and revising how many 767s BA had, and where they flew etc, i gave myself 4 hours sleep so i could spend a further couple of hours in the morning revising.the next day, people started arriving for selection, and we were split off into two groups; i would be doing my group excercises first, and Pilapt second - i wasn't sure if i prefered this, or vice versa! the excercises were fun, and you had to try very hard to remain composed, behaving like they want you to behave...after this there was a break, and we got to know our rivals a little better, some had degrees, some didnt, some had PPLs, most didnt. instantly, you could weed out the ones you knew had already screwed up, and just talking to them validated your original suspicions that they had not prepared one little bit for the days proceedings, but never mind...

Next was pilapt, now, in an interview situation, i like to look smart, this means suit; tie; quality shirt (with cufflinks) etc- had i known the pilapt test would be so absrbing, i'd rather have worn a string vest! sweating as i was as, i peeled layer off after layer, i worked my way through the maths questions, not sure if i'd cocked up or not - you dont get much time. as for pilapt, a lot of it was ok, my favourite being where you had to fly through the boxes - my recent purchase of Fligt SimX probably got me through that one! the last task was truly an ordeal, even though i tried as hard as i could, no preparation could prepare you for the absolute assault on your mental capacity as you counted down, notifying exceptions in sequence, whilst simultaneously localising a crosshair, and identifying shapes, colours and numbers correctly. tough stuff and it didnt get any better during lunch...

Now... for 200 odd quid, i kind of expected a little more than some slices of ham and potato salad, but regardless, i wasnt much in the mood for food as i heard recantations of the other peoples experiences - the difficult ones to hear were the, 'oh the maths questions were sooo easy!' and 'i did my pilapt in about 10 minutes'. i tried to ignore it, but once we were led into the room where we were told that some would be sent home, some sent home and invted back for reapplication, and some going through to phase 3, the nerves really started tugging... the names were read out; 8 people sent into different rooms before finally mine, and a freindly austrian's were mentioned. so me, and this other chap were looking at each other (dont worry, it doesnt get mills and boon), thinking the same thing - out of the 14 candidates, some of which were very strong, there was no way that only us two made the cut, therefore, we were going home...

The lady that held the presentation that morning (through which i fell asleep several times and hoped no-one noticed, which they did) came in with a clipboard and a kindly expression upon her face, 'now, you know not everbody can get through, so i wont beat around the bush because its not fair on your emotions...' i nodded acceptingly- 'buggeration', i thought... 'congratulations, you passed phase 2!'
Couldnt believe it, i think my grin was wider than the fireplace, i immediately shook the hand of the austrian wo i'd later find out was called Michael...After what seemed like 30 seconds, the unseccessful candidates came through, and we chatted for a bit, some people being a little rude, but others being really nice and encouraging.

The interviews shortley followed, and the girl that interviewed me was very... 'appealing'... anyway, it was a very comfortable interview - i stumbled in a few areas, clearly not giving the right answer, but trying my best non the less, i felt pessimistcally opimistic. that was it, we'd find out how we'd get on in a couple of days, i took the train back to london with michael, we had a pint and i took the worst bus ride in history home- i'd had 4 hours sleep in the ast 36 hours by this point, and sitting next to a horrendously fat and smelly person, with my knees up to my chin due to economical seating arrangements was not going to improve the sleep deficit.

Two days later, i recieve the email i didnt want to see, i hand't been successful, but they felt i was close, so i could comeback in 6 months time for another go - this was a pivotal moment. I emailed Michael to see how he got on, almost sure that this guy was a dead cert - he flew thru pilapt and already had many hours on even MEPs! But apparently not, not even an invitation to try again whcih was very puzzling.After a couple of weeks, my assesor sent me some constructive criticism of the areas i needed to improve on - the main being my knowledge of CRM - i was a little puzzled at this, seeing as CRM is nothing you couldnt be taught whilst on a course, never the less, i embarked on a few routes to educating myself on the matter, namely buying the book 'The Naked Pilot' - a good book detailing the psychology behind air disasters. this book turned out to be dream shattering.

I came across the chapter which was based on pilot fatigue, and it drilled every single negative thing about flying into my brain - the hours, the monotony, the illness, the rotas, the missing of childrens birthdays, the divorce rate and stress... but most critical? the statistic that the 60%+ of pliots never reach retirement age. i'm not scared of crashing, but you have to ask, in an industry where you are fervently checked on medical grounds, can the job be so bad that heart disease and strokes reduce your life expectancy by 10-15 years? bugger that! add to that the section where the author mentions sleeping during flights - while i was at uni, i was known as mr sleepy, i couldnt get through 1 lecture without falling asleep, regardless of the time, and it is still the case today as i recently found out so how would i manage a transatlantic flight at night with the soothing whirr of jet engines and a cnfortablly heated flight deck?

After thinking long and hard, i've pretty much dropped the idea of being a commercial pilot - i think i'd get through the exams no problem, and i dare say i might enjoy the job for a few years, but i think i know myself that in the long run, i dont want to spend a life changing sum of money, gambling on whether i will a) find a job, and b) enjoy it. Just after my selection at CTC, i took an interview for an R&D job with one of the worlds biggest blue chip company's and was lucky enough to be successful, they say that with this particular company, you have more chance of getting into harvard, and perhaps in that case, CTC... with a reasonably secure graduate job with a sound future, looking back i do wonder about the what ifs, and whereas had the recession (which had ony just began to take affect last year) not happened, i might have been chewing my ear, now i look back and think... thank ****ing god. wondering about those ppor sods in the holding pool... i still have the option of reassesment, so who knows what will happen, one thing is for sure, i'll get a PPL, becuase flying is just the cats tats.

Sorry for length, hopefully i'll have inadvertantly answered a few n00b questions in advance, and give an opinion that isnt prejudicial at all on any FTOs... and for anybody that says "well if just took a book to put you off, then you cant really have wanted it much in the first place", can boil their heads...