The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Anyway. I'll be unemployed as the Depression wipes out airline after airline so hold pools and supercars will all become somewhat academic.

People have no idea how bad this will become.


Stop listening to Coldplay!

I'm getting really scared now.:(

[Kerosine]

Recent updates from CTC managment:

As you know, we started type rating training speculatively with a number of Cadets to avoid a potential bulge in the early part of this year and we have recently been able to confirm that all 32 of those Cadets will go onto Base and Line training. What is less certain for the moment is the commitment period from easyJet. By that I mean, at this moment we do not know, indeed easyJet do not know, whether or not those Cadets will be employed at the end of the 6 month Line Training period.At least they're being open about employment prospects after 6 months...


There is now an opportunity to place a significant number with Aer Lingus at their Gatwick base. Aer Lingus has made a presentation to all concerned and interviews are currently being planned. The airline's intake will be 16 immediately, followed by an additional 16 later in the year. 9 candidates have been planned for interview this week and the remainder will interview in Feb and MarchWhether these opportunities materialise is open to debate (form an orderly queue please), however at least the airlines are talking :ok:

[Icemaan]

Hey people,

I am new to this forum so I do apologise if im firing up an already talked about subject but I was just wondering if any of you can give me a heads up as to the Phase 4 maths aspect, are we talking serious maths while flying or just basic sums. The reason I ask is simply because I understand the basis of Phase 4 but nothing in detail. Any advice or breakdown of events would be awesome...

Thanks,
Icemaan

[99jolegg]

You won't get any specific detail because there isn't a specific way the trainer will conduct the flight...

I've heard all sorts of maths questions from addition, subtraction, multiplication and division with a few percentages etc thrown in. Nothing that difficult but challenging all the same.

However, when I did mine, I didn't get one maths question at all....no idea why. Maybe it was because I was asking general questions as we were going so he was satisfied that I had some capacity other than the task in hand, but that's just a guess.

The main theme that I felt I was being tested on was improvement. When we started a steep turn at 8000ft (we were in the dark so couldn't see the ground) it went belly up...i.e. nose up and down, not keeping an attitude, over-trimming, an erratic scan and over compensation on the controls. I did it again and the scan was better...I found a good attitude just above the horizon to keep the nose at and was acutely aware that a few seconds later the back pressure would need to be upped considerably to stop the nose dropping horrifically as it did the first time.

Stay alert and keep the scan going. When you see something going array, correct it slowly whilst carrying on the scan.

Your scan will break down. Trick is to limit the damage it does. As the training Captain said in our briefing..."If I had a pint for every time your scan will break down, I'd crawl out of here on all fours..."

It will also be tailored to your experience.

[RobStob]

Hi everyone,

I've only recently joined this forum so I apologise if I appear completely naive by posing a question that has been asked several hundred times. I'm heading down to CTC's selection day shortly following their open day, and I was just wondering if the structure of the pilapt tests, or indeed the day itself and how it is conducted have changed significantly since the accounts provided in the old thread, around the time of summer 2006.
I'm also curious as to whether the questions in the interview are exclusively based around your competence and flying experience etc, or if they ask questions pertaining to the industry and recent developments? If someone could direct me to a recent account of someone's assessment experiences that would be great. Also, are the introductions presented to the entire group or just when you have the one-on-one interview? It seems odd to talk alot about yourself when there's 12 other people waiting to have their turn.

Cheers.

[RobStob]

Hi,

I've just read the posts praising this book; can anyone confirm this is a valid and legitimate website, since you can't order it through a bookstore?
For those who have ordered and received this book, did it arrive in good time and in a good condition?

Many thanks, Rob.

[Sepi]

RobStob, look at page one of this thread, still by far the most useful page you will see. As I understand things have changed very slightly but you won't go far wrong with the info you find there.

PAJ, you are on the ball with numbers, its 38 in the pool plus a handful of BA guys with another 10...ish joining in the next few weeks, after that roughly 12 a month is not a bad guestimate, sometimes less. The guys dropped by Easy and Monarch aren't taking cadet jobs as such and neither are ATP guys. WWW stop making up numbers, please!

Speculating on the size of the hold pool tomorrow would be both flawed and a waste of this thread as only a select few actually know. These are hard times for those waiting and for those joining the pool in the near future but what to do. If you are joining CTC tomorrow, you will finish in a different climate so go enjoy NZ!

[nevilinio]

Hi RobStob,

If you trawl back in this thread there are loads of posts similar to yours with some pretty detailed answers.

Basically, phase 1 is essentially being asked to come to an assessment. CTC look at you application and decide whether you meet the minimum entry requirements.

Phase 2 is when you are invited to Bournemouth to take part in the pilapt computer based assessment . This is quite simple if you've into computer games! You have a joy stick and a pad with four buttons. The early testing is using just the joy stick for example flying what looks like a plane through squares over a course. Another one I remember involved keeping a dot in the centre of some cross hairs. This involves using the joystick to try and keep the dot as close to the centre of the crosshairs. As you advance through the different 'games' it gets more tricky, involving you to listen for certain words and react to them whilst doing these earlier tasks at the same time. Eg you will hear something and have to press one of the four buttons whilst doing the crosshairs game. There's a memory game too, anywhere up to 6 or 7 digits and your given like 10 seconds to remember them.

And then.........you will do the maths test. :rolleyes: 15 questions in 15 minutes. These can all be done with basic GCSE maths. You will not have a calculator and unless you can remember how to do long division, long multiplication, decimal division etc you will struggle...I am very much of the calculator era and I had to do some serious brushing up!!:bored: I think it was multiple choice, but all the answers are pretty similiar unfortunately.

Stage 3 is pretty good. :) Before you attend you are sent a set of questions which you must return to CTC prior to your visit back. Things like..Why do you want to be an airline pilot etc... When I was there, I was part of a group of eight sat around the board room with three assessors. There's a short presentation giving you more information about CTC, the course, funding and to congratulate you all on getting this far etc. Once that is over you are divided into two groups of four or so and each team does a number of different exercises. The main one was a discussion exercise about a hypothetical situation i.e. being stranded on a desert island . You must discuss and agree with your team how to best get rescued, but you are only allowed to carry a number of items with you. Other things happen along the way but it was fun. Just remember not to over dominate but make sure you contribute!

The other task we had involved some LEGO type stuff, and we were asked to build a vehicle which would 'drive itself'. Using rubber bands we succeeded....well kind of. Again acting as part of a team...contributing...you get the idea.

The final part of the day is the interview. Mine was with a current training captain and a member of the HR team. I had no flying experience so they asked some basic aircraft questions for example: What does an aileron do? Explain how an aircraft generates lift? Also be prepared for questions about the partner airlines...what aircraft they fly, their main bases etc. Show that you know what you are talking about and have done some research. There are also some general HR questions...give me an example of a time when you had to work as part of a team....what would you say are your poorer qualities...usual things. Rehearse these sort of questions before you go in, otherwise you will be umming and aahhhing the whole time.

99jolegg gave a good description of stage 4.

Pprune has a LOAD of information about CTC so here is a good start for revision. Wikipedia.org is good for airline info. It worked for me.

Hope this info helps. Good luck with your selection :ok:

Nev.

[RobStob]

Thanks very much for your response, Nevilinio. I'm pleased you've told me to research partner airlines because it hasn't really been mentioned in what I've read so far. With the maths, are you required to solve equations and the like or pretty much just long multiplication/division etc?
Obviously you have to provide answers to the competence questions you are sent by e-mail, so do these form the basis for the answers you give when they discuss them in the interview, or are you expected to provide different examples? Is anyone aware whether it even takes that much to pass phase 1 (which I have done)?

[nevilinio]

You don't have to do any algebra. It's just division, multiplication, adding, subtracting, percentages etc. Some questions involve multiple calculations to get the answer their looking for. Also there were some speed, distance and time calculations.

You will be asked to give other examples in addition to the ones you wrote on your question paper. Its quite a relaxed interview, they want to get to know you as best they can so want you to elaborate on your skills and talents and give 'evidence' of when you used them. In my interview they went over the answers I provided, which was good because you have the opportunity to ensure they understand your desire to become a pilot. They must get so many very similar answers to the "when did you decide you wanted to be a pilot?" question, so its important to try and get a personal touch to ensure they believe you!

As far as I am aware stage 1 is passed once they look over your details you provide online, to check you meet the minimum requirements....but I may be wrong.

Nev.

[RobStob]

Thanks again. You mentioned pprune having lots of information regarding CTC; is there a specific thread or did you just mean trawl through and compile bits and pieces of info myself? What kind of information are they looking for you to provide, company background and services etc? I'm surprised at the length of the interview, to be honest. They must ask a fair few questions to sustain it for 45 minutes or so. Either that or your answers need to be of some length!

[easyRed]

Sepi, can let us all know your reasons for saying the Wings Cadets are to be placed ahead of the Wings ATP pilots? I know there's a numberof ATP guys who keep an eye on this thread who would like to know.

[PAJ]

My understanding was that ATP guys will get slipped in between wings cadets as and when placements become available based on when they completed their AQC relative to other ATP guys. Contractually, I can't say whether the various agreements CTC have in place favour Wings cadets over ATP guys. However, the Wings cadets hold pool will build quickly as a number of CP's who have been bunched up together finish within a month or two of each other - not sure what that number is, but something in the region of 30 can't be too far off the mark. Given that cadets are much greater stakeholders in CTC (to the amount of about £60k compared to what ATP guys pay), seeing a number of ATP guys given priority would likely create a great deal of upset! However, none of us manage that policy.

(Sepi, i envy you down in Cyprus mate! It's bloody freezing here!)

[General_Kirby]

RobStob, your applying to a highly selective and intense training programme to be a commercial pilot and you think 45min interview is to long? To short if anything! Loads of questions covering all areas, give answers with examples of everything to backup what you are saying.

[easyRed]

PAJ, thanks for your input.

My understanding of the hold pool is that there is one hold pool for both Cadets and ATP pilots, the only difference being if an airline has a preference for one group or another? I know of ATP pilots who have been bobbing up and down in the hold pool for nearly a year now so I'm sure seeing recently qualified Cadets placed ahead of them must be causing them a great deal of upset too!

I understand the Cadets have handed far more cash over to CTC, but (without knowing the figures) the mark up on both courses must be at a similar percentage, and that any placement fee would be close to if not the same for both sets of pilots?

[Sepi]

EasyRed, I didn't say Wings guys are placed ahead of ATP guys, I hope my post wasn't misinterpreted (though obviously it has been). All I meant is there is a different process for placing the two so those adding the two hold pools together are coming up with an irrelevant figure.

As to how CTC decide who gets placed out of which pool and when, I'd hate to speculate, must be a bloody nightmare!

PAJ its all good down here, still jobless though...sigh! My passenger hours with Monarch are racking up, maybe I should drop a CV under the cockpit door on my next flight...hmmm. Pleased to see all is well with you, so jealous you're flying!

[PAJ]

easyRed, there are two holdpools, but I would very highly doubt that CTC would like an airline to request just ATP guys (although I am aware the Vietnam deal was predominantly ATP, largely because the cadets had selected to go to UK based airlines) as the number of cadets significantly outweighs the number of ATP guys, and continuing to sell places on the Wings course requires CTC to be able to say that they are still placing cadets. They have the option of closing ATP like they have at the moment (and no doubt will do for the forseeable) when demand is down. For example, the TCX course back in October was just cadets and the CTC 'White Tail' courses all now going to EZ were all cadets (to my knowledge!).

I can understand ATP guys who have been holding for a while are just as frustrated, but as I said, a cadet's loyalty and financial contribution to CTC is such that they might expect to be pushed ahead given the delays most will have experienced by the time they are ready for type rating and the fact that unlike an ATP guy, there has been no opportunity to earn over the 16 or so months they have been in training. Just my 2p worth; ideally everyone would be placed straight out of training but those days are gone, and accordingly, placement selection has to be judged slightly differently.

[easyRed]

Thanks for your thoughts gents. I guess the only people who know what's going on re. placements are those employed by CTC, and I'm sure they're doing all they can.

Lets just keep our fingers crossed for a miracle and for the pool to start draining sooner rather than later, for the good of everyone keeping their head above water.

[mango0904]

Hello...I am attending stage 2/stage 3 on the 3rd Feb, and was just wondering firstly, if anyone else is, and also I read that you need to know about flying, I only have a couple of hours under my belt so would have a limited knowledge...How in depth do they go on specification of flying knowledge? Thank you

[LessThanSte]

Well they arnt going to be silly, they want to know whether you are a good, decent person with the ability and indeed the enthusiasm to be successful and are not simply trying to find out if you can read wikipedia.

That said, reading wikipedia wouldnt be a bad thing. Simple things about aircraft would be a good start, knowing a few terms (the likes of which could be picked up by, say, flight sims (for example, i know what VOR navigation is all about, how it works and things purely through a bit of trial and error in fsx (though probably not enough to pass an exam on the subject and/or do it for real))) wouldnt be a bad thing. If you went in not knowing the feintest thing about the industry youd be wasting your time!

[bigjarv]

I can't recommend get a head for the sky enough. I really can't! Not so good if it is last min prep you need as you have to work through it. I mean it would be useful, but you need a bit of time for the full benefit. I think it took 3 days to arrive.

[LessThanSte]

Yes i meant to say that, £12 that could potentially be the best £12 youve ever spent. Google it and you shall find it. Pay for it, and it will come!

[Chilli Corneto]

This is a great book! I got it, read it, went through every stage of selection and was offered a place on a course.

Worked for me. Certainly not a bad investment IMHO. :cool:

Cheers

Chilli.

[Yomomma]

I used get a head for the sky for my assessment, and can’t recommend it enough for people who are attending a CTC assessment. The Maths assistance is what I found really useful for Phase 2; the questions really do prepare you for the test CTC give you.....and I felt that having not studied arithmetic since school it was a perfect way to scratch up my skills, which resulted in a clear pass of my Math’s section. I would also recommend the pilapt-prep software, very useful for the computer capacity test – you can’t practice this enough! For stage 3, this book gives helpful tips on the interview preparation and group exercises, giving good examples and tips which helped me through the day with far more confidence. Well worth the money when you consider the cost of the assessment and that you only get one shot at it, unless you get re-invited back!

[Hank777]

Hi everyone!

I applied for CTC Wings Cadets but few hours later I got e-mail that thay have decided not to take your application forward to the next stage. Actualy I have CPL and ATPL theory and I am bachelor of science.
Do you think that I have to apply for CTC Wings ATP or I am between this two options and I must do ME/IR first and than apply for CTC Wings ATP?

Thanks in advance!!!

Hank

[99jolegg]

CTC Wings is ab initio...i.e. no or very little flying experience.

CTC ATP is the scheme for holders of a CPL and IR. The ATP scheme is closed for the moment. I don't think it has been open since January 08 but could be wrong. I doubt it'll open for a while longer either, but that's only my guess.

At the moment you're between the two. Look at the website for details.

[largegeorgejones]

Hank! The above is absolutely right. You are between their requirements. Too much experience for one and too little for the other. Not sure the Wings ATP will be open anytime soon, given the current economic climate and all that!

[Hank777]

99jolegg and largegeorgejones, thanks for so fast reply.

Is my education (bachelor of engineering) appropriate for CTC Wings programe?

[akindofmagic]

Your education (i.e. your degree) is irrelevant for the CTC Wings Programme.
You will be eligible for the ATP scheme, if and when it opens, providing you have a CPL and current MEIR. However, you will not be eligible for Wings Cadets.

[RobStob]

Hi everyone,

I was just hoping someone could elaborate on the maths involved in the numeracy test and how best to prepare. I'm aware that it covers long division/multiplication/addition/subtraction and a couple of other things, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could provide a comprehensive list (to the best of their knowledge) so I know what areas I need to brush up on! I've been practicing all of the old school methods mentioned above, but I really don't want to leave any stone unturned or waste the time I have to prepare. Also, does anyone recommend an effective way of improving your mental arithmetic? It could really use a bit of speeding up. I've ordered that Get A Head For The Sky book; does anyone who's read this book know if approximately 2 weeks, or just over, will be enough time to absorb the contents and use it effectively?

I noticed it was mentioned that there is a form of pilapt software available in the public domain; does anyone know where to get this (or the best way to prepare for the test)?

Many thanks.

[hellomynameisamelia]

This is my first time on PPRuNe so sorry if this is wrong
I was just wondering what the benifits of getting into piloting via schemes such as CTC wings over things like modular training or studying at university on a course such as Air Transport Operations at the City of London University or Aviation Management and Operations at the London Metropolitan University. Any help would be great or some pointing in the right direction in terms of websites or documents. I am really enthusiastic about entering the aviation industry but would just like some advice
Thanks

[99jolegg]

Have a search around this forum, particularly the Sticky / Announcement at the top of the Professional Pilot Studies forum; it is a collation of the most frequented info.

The issue of flight training is a maze of subjectivity in that everyone's view is different in some way and there are many different ways to do it which makes for some pretty dull threads when it gets discussed over and over again.

That said, some perceived benefits of an integrated FTO like CTC is that 1) high standards that are recognised in the industry 2) a 100% placement record after training (so far, could well change in this economic climate). A third used to be the favourable finance system (unsecured loan) which has now been revoked by HSBC when the credit crunch tightened.

I'll make clear that they are just 2 of the perceived benefits....there are also many benefits for the modular route or another integrated FTO.

Don't rush into it...look at all of the info available here, do your research and then make your own mind up...ignoring the "I-did-it-this-way-so-it's-the-best-way" crowd.

Lastly, take note of the economic situation at the moment...there are a few useful posts here: http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/335548-growing-evidence-upturn-upon-us.html that you could look at. Take some with a bucket of salt, though. You don't want to rush through training to end up in a stagnant market with a load of debt. When will things pick up? Nobody knows but there are a lot of guesses floating about in that thread.

Good luck!

[RobStob]

Hi everyone.

Can anybody recommend the best way to prepare for the stage 2 numeracy test and also the best method of improving/speeding up mental arithmetic? I'm not sure what to revise and practice other than long division/multiplication etc. If anyone could provide a comprehensive list of the maths topics examined or simply elaborate on the numeracy test in particular it would be fantastic. I'm aware that the test has been discussed in previous posts, however there are certain aspects I'd like more information on.

Many thanks.

[RobStob]

Well I'm sorry if you think I'm being lazy, but I refute that. I know if may have appeared like that because I asked for a list, however that's only because after looking through the thread I wanted to know if there were any other things to revise other than those already mentioned. If that's all of what I need to revise then I'd already gathered that, so fair enough. I don't see how asking for advice on techniques for speeding my maths up is lazy, quite the contrary; I thought this would be the best place to enquire. Apologies if I appear lazy, I wouldn't want to give the wrong impression.

[LessThanSte]

Spend £12 on 'get ahead to the sky' (google), many on this forum have used and highly recommend it!

[edmooriginal]

Has anyone had an interview with Aer Lingus yet? I've got mine next week and could do with an idea of the general format of the day, hints and tips.

[Chilli Corneto]

@ RobStob:

If you can do long multiplication and long division without much hassle you will be able to do just about any maths in the selection. The trick is to know when to do the long multiplication and long division (unless it's obvious). Especially when conversions come up. % are easy peasy!! Nobody should struggle with Addition & Subtraction.

The 'Getaheadforthesky' book is great for the selection process. It definately works.

Also brush up on your square roots. Although I can't remember being asked to do one in the maths tests the Capt I was with on my sim check threw a stinker at me!!! :E :E :E :E The git!!

Not being very familiar with how to work them out I eventually came to an answer about 5 minutes later. I was only 1 away as well! :rolleyes:

Still got through. :ok:

Best of luck!

Chilli.

[T1000]

Rob, the get a head book is legit. I got a copy when I went through and it really helped. There's a lot of first-hand experiences on PPrune but it's good to have a copy for reference. CTC interview is very much asking you about yourself, examples of when you overcame obstacles, low points, what got you interested etc. so it doesn't have the answers, but gives you good idea of the questions to expect..

I got an e-mail confirming the dispatch of it almost immediately. I was a little concerned considering it was only advertised on a naff website but it arrived pretty quick. I traced the order through paypal anyway.

Good luck
Ant

[RobStob]

Chilli and Ant, thanks very much for your replies. I have the book and I'm finding it very useful. It really highlights how much preparation is required for the interview and is a very useful tool for thorough self-assessment. I had the same concern as you, Ant, when I realised it could only be ordered through the website!

[Bambe]

Edmooriginal, well done for the interview... Do you know if it's on a permanent contract or through the flexi scheme?

Best of luck, I knew AerLingus was about to open a new base in LGW but I didn't expect them to hire some CTC cadets so soon.. That's very good.

[PAJ]

To my knowledge, I believe the Aer Lingus recruitment of CTC cadets is for the guys who were not taken on full-time by either EZ or MON at the end of their line training. They will be coming in as DEPs - nice deal for Aer Lingus....Type rated, current, a number already experienced with ops out of LGW.

[error1234]

Had my stage 2 and stage 3 for ctc a couple of weeks ago now. Passed all the tests for stage 2 and stayed for my interview, however the next day I received an email saying they was not going to continue further with my application. I'm 18 years old, so I did expect this result as I felt I did not have enough experience in the aviation industry (straight out of college applicant). The good thing is that they have invited me back to reapply in 12 months time! Just wondering if anyone had some information on how many people who fail at stage three are invited to reapply. Any information or advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, how many people are accepted on the course after the second application? I'm sure information like this isn't exactly readily available, but just wondering if anyone had any help/advice?

Thanks

[99jolegg]

No idea on how many they say should re-apply in 12 months.

Apparently, the group I was with were told 95% of re-applicants get through the selection again...but don't take this as fact unless they say so.

Best thing to do is be positive and the best advice I could give you is to follow their feedback to the letter! It will most probably be blunt...very blunt but it's for your own good. I was in the same situation, I applied at 18. They said come back in 12 months. I spent the year improving aspects I was told were weak and went back. No the second time wasn't perfect but it was far better and at the end of the day, nobody is perfect and I passed at 19 instead.

It seems that the majority of cadets that get through have a degree, certainly on my course 85% have a degree and under 21s are the minority!

I would disagree with djfingerscrossed though. I wouldn't suggest you get a degree for the sake of it. If you want to go to university to study something you really enjoy then go for it. However, I found that I had so much more freedom and versatility to have the world at my feet and focus on the goal at hand rather than (in my opinion) follow the sheep as it seems the logical and most common thing to do.

[error1234]

I guess some serious thinking needs to be done... Thanks a lot for your replies, still waiting on my feedback, so I guess I will wait and see what comes of that...

Thanks again, really helpful!

[error1234]

what do you mean by nominal type jobs? I understand that it does focus you in one particular area, and perhaps reduce your chances in other areas, but what do you mean by nominal? Also, having a degree in a subject which has nothing to do with aviation, would this effect my chances of re-applying in a few years?

Thanks

[PAJ]

Wow DJ that's rather cynical lol! Nobody will say what THE best way to go about becoming a pilot is. My thoughts echo what has already been said - this current economic downturn is typical - the global economy works in cycles and you need to continually be able to position yourself effectively if you are to get through it fairly unscathed. Timing too is a very real factor, and that basically comes with luck to a large extent. Having a degree gives you a number of things:

- An added qualification, demonstrating your ability to work to a high academic standard
- An opportunity to get away from home for the first time and gain some independance...this in turn is excellent life experience and builds maturity, something employers and CTC alike look for
- For a pilot, it is a fall-back...a Plan B, if you like
- It is an opportunity to get involved in all sorts of socials and clubs - these are often the defining aspects of your cv, the things that seperate you from the next graduate with similar grades.

My degree was completely un-related to flying, although it was always my intention to be a pilot. I did Business Management & Economics - very dull indeed in places, but got me into a graduate job with a logistics firm in a managerial position and CTC felt it had given me some very useful experience to take into a flying career. It is re-assuring to have a degree to fall back on to.

To address the specialist degree stuff DJ has shared, I do not agree! In the current climate, everyone is finding it tough to find work, not just graduates. I do not think managers discriminate against graduates because they fear they might surpass them - businesses thrive on new talent and young fresh minds - stagnation in any business is never sustainable, and in the long run their job would be just as vulnerable! I agree that having one of the specialist sector degrees effectively maps a career path for you to some extent, but you still have the competition for jobs. I know a number of guys in med school struggling to get placements/ jobs.

[bjkeates]

Not wanting to get off track because "degree or no degree" has been debated ad nauseum elsewhere on these forums, but in my case going to university definitely helped. These comments only really apply to people coming out of school rather than people looking to become mature students... Not only does it give you experience of living away from home before you venture to the other side of the world for the best part of a year, but it also forces you out of your comfort zone of home/school life and makes you more socially aware. Getting a good degree proves you are capable of studying a subject at a higher level - remember, getting your fATPL involves a lot of study and the FTO will want to see evidence of your capability to get your head down and work. It doesn't have to be aviation, maths or science related - I actually did a maths degree but not one bit of it has come in any way useful for my flying career. It's more to do with the experience it brings. PAJ's bullet points sum it up perfectly.

If you do end up without a flying job straight after training then I would suggest that having a degree would open more doors to you, not fewer. I don't know of too many people who struggled to find work in these circumstances, and the vast majority have degrees. What's more likely to be an issue is the fact you have "aviation" on your CV - potential employers might be scared off by the knowledge you're bound to jump ship back to a flying job as soon as one comes along, unless you went into a job on an agreed temporary basis as I know quite a few have done. I wouldn't, however, advocate DJ's suggestion of CV-doctoring.

Although some study of maths or a physical science might help you a bit, degree level stuff tends to be far more advanced than is required for ATPL study. I found A-level maths and physics helped me understand some of the concepts, particularly in Navigation and Meterology, but it's not utterly necessary. As I said above, as long as you have the work ethic and the ability to study properly, then the degree you go for doesn't really matter.

[Chilli Corneto]

PAJ & Bjkeate I couldn't of put it better myself!

A degree will not necessarily get you a decent job. I graduated, got a job and I'm still on the same graduate payscale as I was 2 years ago. :mad:

I even secured the job ahead of more experienced, better qualifed applicants. :hmm:
That still doesn't mean squat. If a company can get away with paying someone peanuts they will.

The irony of it is that had I not gained the experience or interpersonal skills through doing my job I may not of been mature enough, or prepared enough to go through the selection.

A necessary evil it has been but I am counting the days until I can hand in my notice. :E

Chilli.

[kwb911]

Info for CTC wannabes.

For those wishing to go to CTC but are having trouble arranging funding CTC have found another bank that is willing to provide funding for the scheme.

[captain_rossco]

I bet they have!!!

[Mr A.V.Onics]

They have infact found two new banks who will provide funding, and will be announcing this via the website (I expect) in the next few weeks. Keep your ears to the ground.

Mr. A

[1mag1n3]

That is excellent news about the new banks funding CTC's scheme!
Thanks for the info guys!

[Kerosine]

Please be aware the funding provided by BBVA and a UK street bank will not be under the same Ts & Cs as the original HSBC loan; the new funding will require assets to be secured against the loan.

[PA28R]

anyone going for etihad airways cadet scheme from new york in august, we shall all meet up before the assesment day.

cheers :ok:

[roboa]

Hi,

Do CTC take on people who apply straight out of college or will they take priority over other applicants? Is there anybody who has gone straight from college straight into CTC? Final question, where can I get hold of a copy of get a head for the sky? I googled it to no avail!

many thanks

[kwb911]

If you meet the education requirements and demonstrate the skills they require at the interview (stage 3) they will accept you. If you do not demonstrate the leadership or key life skills at the interview but they like you then you will get asked to reapply 6 - 12 months later on.

As for the book I have seen it mentioned on the forum recently with the link to the website. It might even be this very CTC thread but not sure.

[roboa]

Ok, thanks for that:ok:

I'll have a look around for the link;)

[kwb911]

I was feeling extra helpful tonight :ok:so I had a quick look over this thread and can’t find the link only people recommending the book. Maybe I imagined the link or it could be on the other CTC thread lurking around at the moment.
Anyway I just happened to have it in my favourites.

Get a Head for the Sky - Airline Interview Preparation - About the Book (http://getaheadforthesky.com/content.htm)

[roboa]

cheers! :)

[orangina35]

Hi there,

Anybody going to Dibden for Wings ATP assessment day at the end of February?

See ya

[PAJ]

Wings ATP is open again?....with the cadet holdpool building? ATPers should not be joining the scheme when 12 cadets a month are finishing, behind schedule with a £60k loan brewing! 12 ATP cadets have already been put on TR before cadets who have been holding for months - I'm sorry but cadets have invested 18 months of hard work (and lost potential earnings) and are £60k stakeholders in the company - ATP cadets should not be getting these opportunities in the current climate!

[EvelcyclopS]

how do you mean they are stakeholders?

[kwb911]

Where does it say the ATP scheme is open again? I can't see it on the website or CTC forum.

[99jolegg]

Probably means the Wings scheme, the website doesn't mention the ATP scheme for a long time and they still have a backlog as far as I'm aware.

[PAJ]

Every cadet is a stakeholder in CTC - a stakehoder is defined as someone who has an investment (whether that be financially, asset-based, time etc) in an organisation. Cadets take a very sizable loan to 'bond' themselves into an agreement with APL (Airline Partners Ltd, a CTC subsiduary company that basically 'sponsors' - used rather loosely! - cadets through basic, intermediate and advanced training), a loan which is taken out in each individual cadet's name. This money is then put into CTC. Cadets also have the lost earnings potential that comes with trianing for 18-24 months plus all the time and effort that comes with training. That makes a cadet a stakeholder in the company. Cadets are made aware of the investments/sacrifices/risks they will be making, and this naturally comes with flight training now days, so is not unexpected. Either way, cadets are invested into the company, and should really be treated as such a little more!

12 ATPers will be starting TR in March (I believe they were selected back in around march/april 2008, so have been holding for a while) ahead of cadets who have been holding for months themselves. With so little money (comparititvely speaking) and time invested in CTC versus cadets, it has not gone down well at all that these ATP guys are to be placed before cadets! Quite frankly, they have not earned that priority! I am by no means having a go at those ATP guys as they have been incredibly patient to stick around for nearly a year waiting, but in the current climate, cadets surely should be getting the placements with ATPers filling the spare capacity on courses if/when it occurs. A biased view as I am a Wings cadet myself, but I believe it is fairly valid.

[no sponsor]

You are a customer PAJ. You are not a stakeholder of any sort.

Perhaps you should dig out your contract and specify which clause states that you jump to the front of the queue?

An attitude like that will not win you any favours in the rather small world of commercial flying. I suspect you also demand to be given a full-time contract at EZY?

[PAJ]

A stakeholder is someone with a vested interest in something, and that does not necessarily mean a business. I actually recall very clearly indeed (as I think many other Wings cadets will) CTC telling us that as cadets we are NOT customers, but that it was the partner airlines that are the customers. They said that is how CTC's business model was designed (although with the advent of iCP, that does shift somewhat) and that we were the 'product'.

I am fully aware that EZ will almost certainly not give me a full time position, something that is rather hard to come to terms with, but every other cadet I have trained with has the same reality to deal with so I am not unique. After 6 months line training, all contracts CTC have with cadets are effectively fulfilled. What cadets really want right now is some relevant communication and information as to where they stand (which we are not getting despite numerous attempts). Hearing that such a large number of ATPers were put on a course ahead of cadets was a complete shock. With large loan repayments due imminently on loans, something CTC are aware of, knowing that there are actually 12 going ahead in the queue is perhaps information we might want to plan for! NS, you are right, the industry owes us nothing, but as I am sure you can imagine, it is incredibly hard to detract emotionally when so much is on the line.

[sharpclassic]

PAJ,

Last time I checked, when I hand over £60,000 to someone for a service, I am the customer (yes, she was worth it). Airlines pay CTC money (how much, no one knows) for each cadet placed. They are also a customer.

As a 'product', what position does that put you in? Are you not then a commodity to be traded, with no say in what happens to you? Are you not just another sausage off the continuous conveyor belt of cadet pilots to be sold off to the highest bidder?

As a customer, you have rights. As a tradable commodity, you having nothing.


Out of interest, are you one of the guys that EZY let go after 6 months? If so, CTC have done exactly what the scheme states. They have trained you to a fATPL, you have had a 'line training experience'. Job done. Deal complete. Thanks very much.

EZY have used their position in the scheme to save money and, if what you say is right about the ATP cadets, CTC have also used their position in the scheme to make money. The losers are the tradable commodity.

I'm not saying what happened to the guys who were let go is a good thing, far from it. It sucks penguin balls. However, everyone who signs up to the scheme knows the score. It's just unfortunate that this has finally happened.

[PAJ]

I am not one of the cadets laid off by EZY, rather one of many cadets currently treading water waiting for a TR and then line training, all the while in the knowledge that repayments for my loan are imminent! So as of this time, my contract with CTC personally has not been fulfilled. I have tried to write not as an individual (although that I have clearly not acheived!) but more as a representative for those currently in a similar situation, and those who will be joining the pool each month. I think my personal feelings are echoed by those other cadets at least to some extent.

I don't think debating the customer/product status of cadets is necessarily particularly constructive, but I would whole-heartedly agree that on handing over £60k, cadets should indeed be considered a customer. And I think we are considered customers at times (particularly when they are trying to get us to hand over that money), but when it is more convenient for CTC, cadets are treated much more like a commodity as you say, namely when the going starts to get a bit tough.

What has bothered cadets is the lack of information that comes our way. CTC do have a strategy, and this strategy effectively dictates what happens next for each of us, but we are not told what that is! Something very simple like knowing your position in the holdpool, for example, is quite important when trying to sort your life out for the interim. But to my knowledge, even after numerous attempts by different people, this has not once been disclosed.

In hindsight, pprune might not be the best place to try to make a point like this, but perhaps putting it out there might bring something useful to the table.

[SW1]

This straight from PPJN.

Need at least 100 (maybe 170) experienced crew - probably includes CTC cadets laid off last year. UPDATE: There is no permanent external recruitment of pilots planned in 2009. New pilots will enter initially through a modified CTC scheme.

So it's not all bad for you lot.....

[Pi_R]

Good evening,

Since it's my first post on this forum (even if I've read it for a while), I wanted to thank you all for the useful informations we can find here.

I'm really interested in the CTC Cadet scheme and have a few question which didn't find any answer yet. Here they are.

1) I'd like to apply to the program very soon but I would also like to prepare myself to the assessment phase 2 and 3 with the "Get a head for the sky" book. Do you think that I'll have enough time between the beginning of the application process and the moment they call me to stage 2 (if I pass) ?

2) I'm also trying to be part of the IACE (International Air Cadet Exchange) 2009 and I may not be able to start my training until mid- August. In that case, would my application still be considered ? Is it possible then to change the date to the end of April for the initial training ?

Thanks for your help

Pierre

[sharpclassic]

SW1,

Was that from the easyJet page? How is a placement through Flexicrew (which is what they will be getting at) a good thing?

Paj,

Herein lies the problem of the scheme. Cadets are the tradable commodity (of which there is a limitless supply) and as a result, like any expendable commodity, they are treated as such. Cadets are too scared to speak up as they fear being chopped so just go along with what they are, or as you said, are not told and just wait.... and wait... and wait...

[SW1]

Sharpclassic: That was on PPJN and was briefly mentioned in the Easyjet Balpa newsletter, according to the Terms and Endearment thread.

My point was that its a good thing for the Cadets that were given a 6 month placement and then left out in the cold. A job is a job and in this climate anything whether "Flexicrew" or whatever gives them some kind of income to pay their debts as well as gaining that RHS place that youve all paid for.

I personally know 7 cadets out in Hamilton that would not be too displeased that easyjet will be sourcing most of their new recruits through
CTC.

[sharpclassic]

SW1,

I feel you're missing the point. Yes, Flexicrew gives you a job for 6 months. Yes, you will be type rated with 400 odd hours on type. Yes, you will be paid £1,000 a month for your work, which, after bills, rent etc doesn't leave you with much.

Do you benefit? Short term, maybe. Long term, no.

If you think that with a A320 type rating and 400 hours on type you are suddenly marketable to any airline, just ask the guys who were let go by easyJet and Monarch this summer. Most airlines are looking for 1,500hrs total.

So, now you've joined the pile of flexicrew guys who are type rated but with so few hours, they can't get jobs elsewhere. Meanwhile, cadets are still being wheeled off the production line, into the new flexicrew placements.

Really want to spend your life as a contract pilot? Good luck paying your loan back like that, let alone getting a mortgage.

[bjkeates]

If you think that with a A320 type rating and 400 hours on type you are suddenly marketable to any airline, just ask the guys who were let go by easyJet and Monarch this summer.As I've said before on this thread, you're not. Most airlines don't even bother to reply, and the few that do give you a short polite "no". In the current climate, unless you're one of the tiny minority who is extremely fortunate, 400 hours on type will get you nowhere.

Yes, you will be paid £1,000 a month for your work, which, after bills, rent etc doesn't leave you with much.It's important to draw a distinction between the 6 months' line experience as part of the cadet course, and a FlexiCrew contract. Cadets on the 6 months' experience earn £1k a month, true. Remember, this is an 'allowance' rather than a salary, as it is part of the course, and is therefore not taxable. There are too few details about the FlexiCrew setup at the moment, but I would hazard an educated guess that if it is to work effectively as a contracting agency supplying seasonal pilots, then the terms will be completely different, particularly as you would now be in work rather than in training, and any remuneration would be taxable. I'd be deeply shocked if the offer on the table for those people out of their 6 months line training and on to a FlexiCrew contract was the same £1k/month. It will be interesting to see how this "modified CTC scheme" of which they talk, will pan out. I understand discussions are still ongoing, but as I no longer have access to the EZY BALPA boards or receive certain internal communications, I don't know what the position is.

The "customer or not" debate rears its head from time to time, not least among cadets actually on the course. I'm sure the way the flow of money between various is set up is such that the company can call the various parties what they like, but I personally hate the "you are not the customer" line which is often spun. Like various people have said, if I've handed over 60 grand for my training, I don't care who it's to - I have paid for something and therefore I am a customer.

[chrisy08]

Thanks guys.. appriciate it.

[Kerosine]

Hi Chrisy,

That was back in March, currently sat in Clearways with my Jepp manuals so phse 2/3 cant have gone too badly! :}

[EZYramper]

Just curious, does anyone know what the numbers are like on CP's 71 72 73 etc?

[RobStob]

Hi

I'm heading to phase 4 on the 19th; anyone from the 10/2 selection day going there? Also, can anyone who has done phase 4 recently offer any advice and give me an idea of what to expect/how best to prepare over the course of a week? Are you always asked maths questions while you fly? Cheers.

[angelorange]

Just because you have a 73 or A320 rating with low total time doesn't mean you have to restrict yourself to shiny jet jobs - (sadly less shiny these days now the redundancies have hit and temp contracts are the rage).

FRA just took on 3 new FOs - one straight out of Oxford for one of the best manual flying, Multi Crew jobs on the planet:

Calibration Flying around EU. From the Azores to Cyprus.

Their Raw Data ILS & NDB handling skills will never be better after a year or two from now. 4 foot low at 6 miles out "on" the glideslope out is almost a cardinal sin - expect a reprimand from the Flight Inspector!

Apparently all had under 300 hours TT. So there is hope for newbies after all.

[MX16]

Just for the record, CTC's obligation does not end after your initial 6 month contract. Not sure about the contracts being handed out nowadays but back in the day (well 3 years ago!) your association with CTC ended once you had been employed on a permanent basis (i.e. a full time contract after your 6 month training contract), or, after you had been in the holding pool over a certain period of time (can't remember how long). CTC will continue to work hard to get you placed on a permanent basis and that is one of the benefits of the Wings scheme. Granted, that's a fairly hard task in today's market but they will not just cut you loose and I know that from personal experience.

[RobStob]

Is anyone familiar with the main reasons for failure at phase 4? I understand there is an average pass rate of 85%, however I have yet to encounter anyone who has failed it? Do you have to completely balls it up to fail or can subtle errors cause you to aswell? My understanding is that if you get this far, you've already pretty much demonstrated what they really want to see.

Cheers.

[Bambe]

I failed at stage 4 mate... CTC then offered me to reapply in 6 months and I finally went through it and I'm flying to NZ in 10 days.

I knew at the first attempt I hadn't made it but I didn't crash the sim... It's all about your accuracy. If you are asked to turn right with 30 deg bank and maintain 10 000 ft, try not to climb down or miss the required heading.

I personnaly found it the hardest as you have almost done everything and you have to handle a big jet.

Practise your flight sim and try to get used to the 73 panel so that you won't have any big surprise when entering the sim.

The worst is when you think that this day can be the best or the worst of your life so far....
Good luck

[RobStob]

Thanks for your reply, Bambe. Hard luck on failing the first time round, but it looks as though you're all sorted now! Well done and good luck for NZ. Does anyone who had a PPL before sitting phase 4 know of the main differences in the demands of the sim ride between those with and without one? I know it's tailored for the individual, but it would be great if someone could advise me of the kind of things to expect with around 58 hours flying time total, compared with only a few. Is the electronic trimmer really odd to familiarise yourself with compared to a manual wheel trimmer found in light aircraft?

[Bambe]

I was in your case with 45 hours flying hours.
as they say you're not supposed to be able to fly a jet, simply handle it whilst taking information.
You need to focus on your panel and listen to the instructor meanwhile.
Regarding the trim, be very gentle with your thumb you're flying a 55 tonnes and 1 more degres pitch can be a desastre.
It's all about flying a massive aircraft where every smal correction has its effect.

[99jolegg]

I had a PPL when I did my phase 4.

We climbed away from Hurn (training Captain did the takeoff) and I had control by 1000ft. He asked that I maintained the current rate of climb whilst he managed the thrust and that I level off at 8000ft. Tap the trim gently, don't let the huge whizz clunk sound alarm you, it's very dramatic for what it does.

Once we were level at 8000ft, he asked that I fly a few different headings whilst maintaining altitude, with 30 degrees of bank. After that, we did some steep turns for 180 degrees at 45 or 60 degrees of bank, can't remember which. Here is where it is really testing, you'll need a load of backpressure to stop the nose dropping but again he's just looking for accuracy and improvement.

He asked a few simple questions about the flight etc whilst doing this.

Lastly, he gave some descending turn instructions....maintain 1000ft whilst doing a standard rate turn to the left and roll out on xyz degrees. We levelled off at around 2000ft and he gave a vector for final. After that, I flew the ILS with a few instructions from him. He handled thrust the entire way through. I landed and he took control to stop it.

I think this is the norm for the sim assessment but it changes from instructor to instructor. Some ask difficult questions, some don't end up landing etc etc.

[RobStob]

Sounds like it's mainly important to just follow instructions. Even with a ppl, will they expect you to demonstrate anything not covered/detailed in the briefing? I.e, will they generally tell you what to do and what they're looking for?

[99jolegg]

No, they expect you to listen, learn and improve.

They'll brief you about what they will ask you to do, they'll brief you about what will happen when you do some of the tasks (i.e. you'll get a nose drop in a turn), they'll brief you on how to fly the aircraft and operate the necessary systems.

It's good fun, enjoy it.

[RobStob]

I'm sure I will. Cheers 99. I'm trying to get a bit of practice in with flight simulator, but I never use it and I find my joystick really odd to use!

Can I just check, does the EFIS installed on the 737 sim used have a speed tape next to the A.I, but no altitude tape? Hence, do you need to consult analogue/conventional instrumentation when referencing vertical speed and altitude? I followed a previous link to some 737-500 (?) cockpit panel images, but they weren't that clear. It would just be great to know the general layout of the instruments that need to be used during the sim ride so I don't really get too many surprises on the day.

Also, since I have a PPL, will it be necessary to revise anything in particular from the syllabus, or is it just my general skill after x amount of hours that they're interested in?

Thanks again.

[chrisy08]

Application "On Hold" as I am awaiting my full A Levels in May.. they emailed me to confirm I would need A-C in 2 of my A Level subjects.

Chris

[air_wolf]

thought ctc had sold the 737-5 full motion sim but still had the fixed based 737-NG?

the 737-5 does indeed have a speed tape on the main digital display, but no altitude tape. you'll have to look at the analogue altimeter for that. same goes for the VSI.

good luck with the sim.

[RobStob]

I've just got word that I passed my phase 4! Best day of my life!

Anyone heading out on cp72 in April? I could well be joining you!

Rob

[Chilli Corneto]

Well done Rob,

Told you not to worry! :ok:

See you in NZ hopefully.

Chilli.

[M1K]

Hey mate, its Mik here. I didnt get through. :(

I've got no experience so dont really know what went wrong. Do you know anything about Piranavan's result?

Well done again.

Mik

[99jolegg]

Congrats Rob, see you in April. There are some CP72ers on Facebook.:ok:

[RobStob]

Thanks Chilli, your help was invaluable! Much appreciated, and hopefully I'll get to meet you in the flesh in the not so distant future! Only thing is, they told me they've put me into the last available place on the April course, so did you get any notification that you were placed on it?

Mik, I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm really surprised you haven't made it, but getting this far means you can't have done too much wrong. Have they asked you to re-apply and told you what you did wrong? Haven't heard anything about Paranavan yet.

Thanks 99, and cheers for your comments and advice about phase 4. Hopefully I will indeed see you in April! I'll search facebook now. Obviously it's subject to sorting my loan out and getting the basic disclosure; I already have my medical.

Thanks for your comments, guys.

Rob.

[M1K]

Well I'd love to know what u did. I missed a few headings but was able to maintain height etc. I found it difficult but that's because the column took quite abit of getting used too. Was your flight pretty much perfect or did it take some getting used too? Let me know how the other gets on.

[Chilli Corneto]

Hi Rob,

I've been provisionally booked on the CP75 course so I'm not due out until July. However CTC have asked me if I would like to start earlier. I just have to sort out the remaining finances and get my Visa application back to them and I should be done. I can sort out the insurance quickly and received my disclosure this week. I got my class 1 last year.

I might be able to push my course date forward and join the CP73 / 74 course that departs May or June so long as there are places.

Bad luck M1K. :(

Of the people that I know that have failed stage 4 first time round, they passed on their second attempt! :ok: Good luck for next time.

Cheers,

Chilli.

[Gareth Eccott]

Congrats Rob,

Im off on 1st April for CP72 aswell. We've got alot to organise in a short period of time. You will receive an info pack in the next few days; loads of things to read. Very exciting stuff tho. Think we have to attend a 'development' day on the 26 March. See you then mate.

Well done again.

Gareth.

[RobStob]

Cheers Gareth, look forward to meeting you!

I hope I head off on that date; like you said, there's a lot of stuff to get sorted in such a tight time frame. I hope that pack arrives soon so I can get the ball rolling with everything.

Mik, I personally thought my flight was rubbish! I guess I was just expecting too much from myself based on my PPL. I too missed some headings and made quite a few errors, but I suppose we don't really know what they're looking for. I think I just showed a good learning curve and improvement, which is what they want. Did you get any spare capacity questions or maths questions in the sim? Once again mate, sorry you didn't make it this time, but I have no doubt whatsoever you'll walk it next time around. Hope I bump into you in the future at CTC! Keep me posted with how you get on.

Cheers, Rob.

[EvelcyclopS]

Guys, do you mind if i ask how you are funding this course?

[chrisy08]

Question... which could sound silly and stupid to some people but here it does... What is the difference between Cadets and ICP courses at CTC Wings?

[99jolegg]

You get put on to the ATP course providing you meet the pre-requisites (pass rates etc) but there is no reason why that won't happen. Even if the ATP scheme is closed, you'll still go on to it.

[99jolegg]

I believe it does. Yes, the "traditional" ATP scheme works like that but iCPers get entry into it assuming they meet the basic criteria.

I think it comes down to risk, most iCPers narrowly missed the criteria for Wings which could be down to any number of factors, but they have to have a cut off point.

If they give them (the cadet) the benefit of the doubt and they don't come up with the goods, they've set themselves (CTC) up for a fall. If the cadet goes on the iCP route, comes up with the goods then goes straight into the ATP scheme, they've benefited with the least risk possible.

Could well be wrong.

[wirefly84]

Hey guys and gals. My name is David and i have created a group on facebook called ' CTC Wings CP 72 / 73 / 74' i am on CP 73 myself but feel free to join up if you are - or might be on any of the above courses! Its good for general chit chat and frees up this forum for selection enquires.

Thanks Again!
David
CP 73

[99jolegg]

Brutally honest here, I always thought iCP was an attempt to replace the Wings course as we know it for more financial security

I got the impression that CTC management had a strong philosophy of "money doesn't come with natural ability to fly" i.e. a little less financial security is allowable as it provides the company with a mix of cadets from different backgrounds and probably some with better flying talents that would have otherwise been excluded due to lack of funding options....

Obviously, everything has changed and it's gone more to the style of money first, then skill.

[Ollie23]

I actually asked Daph about iCP out of curiosity when I went through the wings selection and she said that the aim was to gradually close ATP entry down to outside candidates as the iCP course develops and just use it exclusively for the iCP grads who do well in training. Its never going to be in CTCs interest to have anyone from Wings or iCP out of work if they can help it.
Be interesting to see how it develops.

[mtanz0]

Can anybody confirm whether the numeracy test for CTC Wings selection Phase 2 is mental or do you have pen & paper. I see people mentioning long division etc, which suggests paper, but also people recommending Trachtenberg's book on speed mathematics. Surely they don't expect you to do long division in your head (don't call me shirley).

Cheers.

[Ollie23]

You get paper to do the working out on but the test is on a computer. No mental long divison required.

I have got the Trachtenberg book you mention and although it’s interesting if you’re into that sort of thing I found it useless for the test, it’s full of new techniques for mental arithmetic which you don't need.
Just make sure you can do long division/multiplication, conversions for ccys, some basic fuel calcs(no prior knowledge needed), and some square/cube roots if I recall.

Best bit of advice I’d say is know all your times tables, if you can reel them off quickly it speeds you up no end when doing division/multiplication questions.

[mtanz0]

Cool, thanks for the info ! What are CCYs by the way ?

[shgsaint]

Cool, thanks for the info ! What are CCYs by the way ? I think Ollie means Currency conversions. I hear these are pretty easy when you need to multiply but a bit harder when you need to divide them. I've been reliably told that 15 mins whiz by and when doing the maths test you should strictly give yourself a minute per question. Do all the really easy one's first that take 10-20 seconds then use the time in the bank to tackle the more elaborate questions. :ok:

A guy I know that did it answered all the questions. He wasn't sure if they were all right though as CTC never told him. Not that he care's. He should be off to NZ if he can sort the finance out. :D

SHG.

[Ollie23]

Yes I meant currencies. It’s all been said before in this thread with some full worked examples if I recall, you might want to read through. Anyway as I can’t sleep here is some more insight…

You will typically be given 2 conversion rates say $1.4 per £ and $1.2 per € you will then be asked how many euros would you get for "X" amount of pounds for example. So you either need to calculate the €/£ rate from the two rates given, or convert the original amount to $ using one rate then back to €.
That as hard as it gets. Other conversion are just simple ones like converting miles to km etc(you don’t need to memorise conversion rates they give them)

Its quite easy to get them all done in order and finish well inside the time limit you just need to be able to multiply and divide quickly on paper and have a comprehension of how conversions work.

Good luck.

[SMOOTHFLIER]

how many cadets are there now on recent courses starting?
have the numbers dropped after hsbc withdrew unsecured loan?

[RobStob]

CTC are planning to increase their training numbers significantly this year, or so they say.

I know there was a rumour that the course I was originally supposed to head out on had 20 cadets as opposed to the standard 10-15, however that may not have been true and might only have been the result of trying to accommodate a backlog of cadets waiting to get out to NZ.

[R T Jones]

20 cadets per cp? If they manage to pull that off I will be very impressed..Last few courses have had between 11 and 14 cadets, it certainly seems the finance is not having a huge impact on numbers. I do believe a large number of cadets have been placed recently though, surely that is good news. Perhaps its not looking too great in the medium term, but from correspondents from CTC management I am confident that cadets will not be left up the creek...

[Ollie23]

but from correspondents from CTC management I am confident that cadets will not be left up the creek...

Must say i don't share your confidence...

Recent news on placements is good to hear though!

[Nick1012]

Hey guys, after ages of perusing this site thought I'd finally sign up and get involved...

I'm off to phase 2 on the 11th - anyone gonna be joining me? I need to book a place to stay still. To be honest I'm a tad more worried about phase 3 than phase 2 (if successful), my interview techniques are untested at best and I don't really have any aviation experience to chat about.

Looking forward to it though!

[toomanytimes2009]

Hi all! Also making my 1st post. Just wondering about this Get a head for the sky book. I think the price has gone up because people mentioned £12 before in the thread. It's now £15. Just wondering if people still think it is worth it? It was getting pretty good feedback but just wanted to check.

I'm also fairly untested aviation interview wise I mean. So is the book as good for preparation as people said? Would be grateful for any guidance and advice!

[EvelcyclopS]

I stayed at the house during my assessment, and it was very very nice, very freindly, very comfortable, and gives you a good idea of the rooms you will be staying in when you come to do your ATPL exams.

Top notch, well worth it.

[mrfilbert]

Would someone mind clarifying what the recent good news on placements is? I've been keeping half an eye on this thread and have just read back over the past 3 pages, but haven't actually come across anything about placement numbers recently, whether good or bad. Are we talking about flexicrew, or what? My apologies if I've missed something obvious but any info would be appreciated.

Filbert

[RobStob]

As of the last month or two, CTC have effectively cleared the holding pool and have secured placements for cadets. Lee Woodward said that over the coming months, they were placing around 70 cadets with easyJet, which seems steep, yet it's what he stated at the open day. The placement situation certainly seems to be picking up. Whether there's a job at the end of the 6-month placement is another issue...

[cc2180]

Realise that there is effectively a second hold pool full of people dumped after 6 months that arent talked about at open days.

[kwb911]

I heard these guys have been or are in the process of being placed again.

[bjkeates]

I believe the ones who have not found alternative employment (not all were 'placed' as such) are going back to easyJet this summer.

[kwb911]

Did any get into AerLingus?

[99jolegg]

Yes, I can't remember how many though. They're on a fairly cushy deal apparently!

[one post only!]

Placed or employed....that is the question! In this market though "placing" 70 cadets is no mean feat!

[sharpclassic]

100% placement.

Interesting statement. I know for a fact that a number of the guys that ended up at Aer Lingus got those jobs off their own backs.

Does this still mean a 100% placement record? I don't think so.

[SW1]

Found this on Flightglobal.

Pilots - United Kingdom - Aviation - 50000465 - Flight Jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/pilots-united-kingdom-aviation-united-kingdom-50000465.htm)
Job Details

« Previous | Next » Back to jobs results (javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContent$BackToResultsLin kTop','')) | New search (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/default.aspx)

Add (javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContent$JobViewer$lbBask etLink',''))
Pilots - United Kingdom - Aviation


http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/Organisation/OrganisationImage.ashx?id=200003959 (javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContent$JobViewer$lnkOrg anisationLogo',''))
View Employer Vacancies (javascript:__doPostBack('ctl00$MainContent$JobViewer$lnkOrg anisationLinkText',''))
Job Position: Permanent
Location: United Kingdom
Job Hours: Full-Time
Job Role: Pilot
Company: CTC Aviation
Posted Date: 24 February 2009 09:49:28Pilots - United Kingdom - Aviation

CTC FlexiCrew
Flexible Crew Resourcing Solutions for Airlines Worldwide
Airlines
The challenge: Effectively resourcing your operation with quality personnel whilst retaining high standards, commitment and a managed cost base.
The answer: CTC FlexiCrew - a supply of the best pilots when you need them most.
CTC is renowned for its high quality and rapid response to the airline industry's needs around the world. Our corporate ideal is to always leave a mark of professionalism wherever we go; we believe that our pilots are our finest ambassadors.
We have a quality selection of pilots with a variety of experience levels - from newly qualified to Instructors and Examiners - available to work for you now on a seasonal or termed contract basis to suit your needs.
If you think you are up for the challenge of representing us in the global airline market, register now.
FlexiCrew benefits Established industry reputation for delivering 1,000 + quality pilots
Contract arrangements as flexible as you need them to be
All of our pilots are assessed for the right qualities and skills before placement
Our industry is changing; contact us now to see how we can help you manage these changes successfully.
Email our FlexiCrew team via clicking the apply button below or register online now.

[EvelcyclopS]

agency pilots?

[Nick1012]

Actually, could anyone tell me the kind of questions they ask in phase 3 regarding the airline industry? Is it more geared towards current events or the layout (such as planes, companies, engines etc)?

Not much time to prepare so don't want to swot up on irrelevant stuff!

[kwb911]

100% placement.

Interesting statement. I know for a fact that a number of the guys that ended up at Aer Lingus got those jobs off their own backs.

Does this still mean a 100% placement record? I don't think so.


But would they have got the job if they had not been to CTC and gained the type rating and line hours? maybe they would but the CTC training and the experience they gained online must have helped a little.

How well are other FTO's comparing at the moment with placing cadets?

[Kerosine]

How well are other FTO's comparing at the moment with placing cadets?Agreed.

The measure of CTC's success should not be a comparison with last year's placement figures but a comparison with other similarly priced integrated FTOs.

As it stands CTC certainly looks to be doing well.

[largegeorgejones]

Nick! Get a head for the sky! It has the answers to your problems!! Google it!!

[air_wolf]

sharpclassic - the lads who got into aer lingus got set up with the interviews through ctc. sure, they had to go through the whole selection process, but so do all the ctc cadets who head off to BA etc.

so yeah, it does mean a 100% placement record.

[saintexupery]

Nick1012, read about the partner airlines through their websites and maybe wikipedia or the like. also do a google news search on them for recent events. a broad idea of airline industry events/strategies is also good, try flightglobal.com

i heard they sometime get a bit technical if you claim to have a background in aviation, like a ppl. maybe refresh your knowledge if so.

a guy on my phase 3 was asked in quite a detail what is a day like for a pilot on duty - i.e., when you show up for work, when you go see the dispatcher, etc. etc.

[Nick1012]

Thanks for the help guys - much appreciated and very helpful!:ok:

[GPJ86]

Hi folks, this is my first post on here but i've been reading for a couple of weeks since i stumbled across this gem of a forum.

I'm currently a freshly graduated Business Studies student and have decided to pursue a childhood dream of becoming a pilot and CTC seems like a great way of doing this.

Before i bother you with any specific questions i'm going to read this whole thread and take notes, i'm about 20 pages into this one so far....

Would you say it is advisable to read the 'old thread' (CTC thread 1) as well or is that out of date and now essentially replaced by this thread?

Thanks in advance for any help.

PS What's the job market like for a pilot just now?

[Ollie23]

You'll probably get everything you need from this thread, you'll find everything gets repeated every few pages by people who can't be bothered to read from the beginning! I read the old one too when I was preparing for selection just in case, can't do any harm.

PS What's the job market like for a pilot just now?

Absolutely dire. Although I hope as a CTC cadet my chances are a shade above dire.

Good luck with it, do your research before you do anything.

[GPJ86]

Thanks Ollie i'll keep reading and be back at this end of the thread in a week or so i hope.

[RobStob]

GP,

Read the old thread, or as much of it as you can. I found the accounts of peoples' experiences, in particular, to be very englightening and useful. Make sure you read the outline of the aptitude tests. There are some differences in the test now, however they're pretty subtle. PM me if you'd like any advice or have any questions.

Rob.

[Ollie23]

Yeah it's also nice to see some of the posts from airline pilots, who still frequent these wannabe forums today, when they were going through the selection years ago. 'BitMoreRightRudder' springs to mind.

A word of caution. Although the CTC threads are helpful they are very one sided, many of the posts tend to be from wannabes who have the blinkers on that CTC is the only way to train(I was one for a while). Be sure to read around other threads and speak to as many people within the industry as you can to get a balanced view.
Especially with the sums of money invloved in pilot training.

[GPJ86]

Thanks Rob, appreciate it. I've got a bit of free time in the next few weeks so i'll read as much as i can. One thing i wouldn't mind knowing now; i am not able to leave the country until August (weddings to attend in July and various other commitments before), am i as well waiting til nearer the time to apply or can they delay your enrolement (that is assuming i'm successful of course!)?

[RobStob]

Happy to help, GP.

Don't worry about those committments. CTC will allow you to elect a start date that's suitable for you. You need to be reasonable, and they do like you to start as soon as possible, but if they said, for example, go out in June/July, and you weren't available until August, they'll accommodate your needs. They're pretty flexible. Just concentrate on passing selection first!

Rob.

[GPJ86]

Yeah, trying not to get ahead of myself, just thought it would be a pain if the start dates were very rigid but you've shone some light on the subject.

[99jolegg]

Yes, you can get a reduction in hours and cost if you have a PPL with CTC...you can get around £3000 back from the foundation fee I believe. Your PPL must be current though if you're integrated, otherwise you can't use any hours against the integrated course.

[RobStob]

I've just passed selection a few weeks ago and have a PPL. They say it doesn't really matter either way, but I think it's useful in the sense that it evidences commitment and motivation, especially when you're young. It gives them confidence that you really want it. It certainly shouldn't hinder you! They'll expect you to demonstrate a higher level of ability at phase 4 if you apply with a PPL, but they seem to be pretty fair with what they demand based on your level of experience.

Good luck

[sx_stavros]

Hi guys

I just put myself down for Phase 2 on 31st March. Anyone on the same day please PM me. I have also booked a room at the Farm House (sounds preety good as its only 10 min walk from the assessment center and is much cheaper than any other local hotel).

[Pi_R]

Hey,

I will be at Dibden on March 25. for selection phase 2 (and I hope 3).
Does anyone else plan to go through it on the same day ?

Could be nice to have a first contact via PM :-)

Pierre

[mrfilbert]

Hi all,

I've been reading (on other, unrelated threads) rumours about CTC's partnership with easyJet coming to an end. Can anyone involved confirm or deny these rumours?

Cheers,
Filbert

[99jolegg]

It's not true...confirmed as not true by CTC management.

[Ollie23]

Yeah i heard that it isn't true either through a different source.
Although i must admit I generally take what i hear from CTC management with a pinch of salt at the best of times.

[99jolegg]

Yes, I'm sure there are lots of things that get some spin attached...but in this case the rumour was definitively rubbished.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Nope easyJet are still using them, it's now only a 6 month contract over the summer though. There is no chance of a permanent contract as it stands, it's the new Flexicrew scheme.

WBV

[ZeBedie]

Are CTC managing to place people finishing training at the moment? And is there any hope of more than the six months unpaid?

[Dadinafix]

A few years ago I asked for advise regarding funding for my son, as not being in aviation myself, I was unsure as to advise him, regarding secured, unsecured loans. I got some very good and sound advise. One from a chap called Steve Whittingham from Bristol.

Now guys / girls I am able to report to you as a parent, of my trepidation at the time, when thinking about banks, loans, future employment, studying on the other side of the world. This was when CTC could boast of 100% placement and a full time contract. (Yes my son made it through, and yes he now works as a pilot.) To this day he is not aware of the advise I had recieved when times where bouyent and less volatile.

For two years my wife and I had sleepless nights, wondering how he would furnish the dept should he not gain employment. A further 6 months then passed when he was sat at home waiting for an airline to offer that holygrail, of a full time contract. And now he still has 5 years of his bond to repay, not a problem, however there is added interest to be paid to HSBC for deffering payments until he was employed. Could he get hold of anybody at CTC to explain anything about the situation? NO!

I kept in touch with other parents from the meet and greet throughout, and they if not all, were as worried as us to what if things went wrong. You see after the spiel, and the drink, and fine food, reality stays with us when Karen and Lee pander to the wanabee idiolgy. No parent wants to P** on their siblings parade, however it is important that the promises have to be delevered by CTC. YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER!!! YOU ARE PAYING!!! YOU ARE NOT PAID THE MONEY BACK FROM THE AIRLINE!!! YOU HAVE A REDUCED SALARY!!! YOU ARE NOT ON A SPONSORSHIP!!!

There is a lot of hidden costs also to be found of Circa 3K, if your careful with money. There is not a lot do in NZ when your broke, and studying most of your working day, and grouded because the weather is crap, or the plane is TECH.

BELIEVE ME ITS NO JOKE BEING MUM AND DAD DURING YOUR TRAINING!!

[Ollie23]

Great post, spot on.

I took my old man to the meet & greet and he was very sceptical, but like you say its hard for parents to pis* on their kids parade, especially after all the effort to get on the course. Beware, it’s a very slick marketing machine.

Sometimes it needs the sobering view of a parent to get us starry eyed wannabes to understand this bit;

YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER!!! YOU ARE PAYING!!! YOU ARE NOT PAID THE MONEY BACK FROM THE AIRLINE!!! YOU HAVE A REDUCED SALARY!!! YOU ARE NOT ON A SPONSORSHIP!!!

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

To re-hash what has been said before.....

It never was a sponsorship scheme, no matter what was said, you always have paid for it all, you don't get repaid from the airline your pay is just the same as any other pilot, just delivered in a more tax efficient way. And even that has stopped with the introduction of flexi crew.

Go into this scheme with your eyes open, it's a very different market now to a few years ago.

WBV

[cloud9dk]

There have been a lot of good posts on this thread, and helped me a lot during my assessments. I'm happy to say I got through and am flying to New Zealand soon to start the cadet course.

I'm very aware of the current financial stuation for airlines, and I'm glad I'm starting the course now rather than finishing. I think in a time of depression such as now, education is quite possibly one of the best places to be. 2 years from now, who knows what will happen. I admit to having been starry eyed by the course, but I think that in two years time, things will be looking better, CTC are getting new airline partners and hopefully more will be joining.

The loan is tough, first to get, and second to pay off and make no mistake I'm already preparing myself for when I get out. I know I wont be on a lot of money and I will have to pay back the loan and people should realise this as well. At the same time though it is one of the best schemes around by the looks of it, and a great opportunity to experience something new and follow a dream.

best of luck to all who apply

[dartagnan]

s one of the best schemes around by the looks of it

kids are writing this kind of crap for years! how do you know at 23 years old, that s one of the best scheme?.
have you been somewhere else in your life, kiddo?.
all these schemes are based on $. they dont give a damn toss about you, and there will be a very few chance to get a job.:ugh:

I know many guys who got training for free and would fly a nice A320 before you..
so dont tell us, it s the best scheme around:oh:

[bigjarv]

I think there is some merit in what cloud9dk says. It's impossible to accurately predict how long this economic downturn is going to last OR how long the industry will take to warm up again when it does finally pick up. Remember, even when the economy recovers, there are people in hold pools that have to be emptied and people in companies that will have the experience to move to other companies. All this movement will have to happen before the doors open to fresh faces. How long it will take for this to happen is a very hard question to answer. So cloud9dk has taken an educated guess that relies on the industry picking up in 2 years and him therefore being at the front of the Q with a beautiful new and current ATPL. Brave move but might pay off. What is for sure is that CTC is a very good place to be. Despite what anyone says, they do have an excellent placement record (possibly one of the best?) and a strong brand that the partner airlines seem to respect. If you had to train anywhere I think CTC is certainly one of the top three places to do it. Tried and tested. I speak as someone who completed the AQC course successfully and whilst waiting for placement got offered a job elsewhere which I took. So CTC didn't actually place me although they would have eventually. I had waited a long time and felt I should just get started and take the opportunity on the table! Ultimately, everyone else on my course has since been employed by good companies through CTC and are still in work and happy. Arguably, I should have placed more faith in CTC and waited as the job they would have eventually offered may have been a better career move than the one I took, but that that was my gamble. I am very happy thou. Employed, stable and with a good quality of life. Point is, it's always a gamble!

So if you are to take the gamble on your timing, which no one can judge you for with any real authority (they can only comment that it is a gamble, but it always will be), CTC is definitely a good place to be in my opinion. You go for it son!

[bigjarv]

PS. On the parent funding argument... Unfortunately in this industry, we now have to pay for our training these days. There are almost no sponsorships. So you HAVE to pay. There is no other way to learn to fly (aside from RAF obviously). If you are to spend this money (for your son's totally illogical but defiant need to fly for a living!) then you have to choose the school that will offer your son the best chance of gaining employment on completion. That really is what you are searching for in a school these days. Well CTC is probably one of the best at doing this. So while having to find such a huge amount of money for the happiness of your insane son will cause sleepless nights, you can take comfort in knowing that you have made a sane and level headed decision by investing in a reputable company that is very experienced in getting your son what he wants! Reading between the lines thou, I think what you are actually saying to wannabe pilots is... "be grateful if you your parents help with funding because they risk much more than you and also live your dream"!

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

So what makes you think that after your 6 month "trial" period with the airline that they arn't going to just ship the next lot of new guys in to take your place? If you work hard in those 6 months?! Nope, this is the reality of the new Flexicrew arrangement. Please be under no illusions about the state of this business at the moment, there are no permanent jobs for the low houred guys and won't be for a few years.

On the finances side, so you get £1000 a month for the 6 months of your contract, then the loan repayments kick in after that. Except now you've just lost your job. So you can't make any loan repayments. Or they find you a job at another airline, great you think, except you're on a similar wage there and now have to make repayments from that wage. Repayments of over 1000 pounds a month. So now what do you live on?

WBV

[The African Dude]

what makes you think that after your 6 month "trial" period with the airline that they arn't going to just ship the next lot of new guys in to take your place?

Because the airline pays for the type rating. They pay for base training. They pay for a training captain to sit behind you for your first 'x' sectors. They're not going to want to do that every 6 months for a newbie if they can avoid it! It's a completely lost investment.

The lower salary cost of a cadet for the first 6 months nowhere near makes up the cost to the airline of the training that they put in.

That's what makes me think that after my 6 month TRAINING period they aren't going to want to ditch me, any other CTC cadet, or any self-sponsored employee, if they can avoid it. ;)

[Ollie23]

The African Dude-I really wish you were right, somehow I think we are in for a much rougher ride than you suggest.

[gyni]

That sounds excellent African Dude! You seem to know a different easyJet than the one Wing Bound Vortex and I work for! Considering we were apparently already 'overcrewed' for next winter before the flexicrew guys started for the summer, do you really think that you'll be staying and not just coming back next year (for the summer)? Believe me, I don't agree with what's going on at the moment at all but that's the harsh reality everyone will have to get used to. When you consider the fools on the ATP scheme last summer paying to fly for 150 hours on line, does it really come as any surprise the way in which management now treats and regards new (temporary) FOs? Only a few days ago one of the cabin crew was laughing in disbelief at the fact that the new FOs take home less per month than them. Be under no illusion guys, airlines are making the most of these economic conditions to drive down our terms and conditions and if it's more cost effective to just employ new FOs for the summer, then that is exactly what they will do.

[SMOOTHFLIER]

You are all seriously deluded you will be dropped at the end of your 6 months.
This is not CTC's fault its easyjets. ctc merely provide what the airlines what they want and what easyjet want is ctc cadets for 6 months over their busy summer season

[PBD01]

Just curious, after speaking to one of the hosties on easyJet the other day, she gave me the impression that new cabin crew are also now given 6 month contracts. Is that correct? It would seem logical and give us a better idea of ej's business plan if they are running the entire company on a 6 month temp basis. Could be a good indicator as to the future (or lack thereof! :confused:) for us new FO's.

[EZYramper]

Are we to expect to be dropped by easyJet at the end of the 6 months forever, or just until the next summer?!

Because by the next summer, another +100 CTC cadets will have graduated and be awaiting placement with easy' (unless any of the other partners perk up).

Would easy' rather take these fresh new guys, or last summer's rejects?

It seems logical that they would rather have the guys who have a type rating, time on type and knowledge of their routes/SOPS/way of life. Would this be outweighed by the cost of not paying a cadet for 6 months? (I'd guess yes)

[Bambe]

EZY already has more than enough crew (Cabin+flight crew) to operate its normal routes.
THe only thing EZY now needs is some extra crew for the summer time (from April till October). That's why they only offer temporary contract to the cabin crew and they are taking the CTC cadets.
As CTC cadets we don't cost them anything! Except the sector pay they add on the top of our 1000 a months graciously given by CTC, everything else is done by and in CTC facilities.

I don't see why EZY would refuse 100 (or more) new free cadets??? That's why the Flexi crew stuff has been launched. For those who already completed their line training and are lucky enough to be re-employed, it will be through the flexi-crew T&Cs.
Times are hard, but 2 seasons is about 1000 hours on type. We'll then be ready to apply for a more decent job when things will pick up.

Good luck for those just starting

[BitMoreRightRudder]

To those CTC guys joining ezy for the summer, make sure you are in balpa. And the way things are going make sure you bring a packed lunch and some teabags to work!

[Gary Lager]

Would easy' rather take these fresh new guys, or last summer's rejects?The question you have to ask is: which is cheaper?

It seems logical that they would rather have the guys who have a type rating, time on type and knowledge of their routes/SOPS/way of lifeRemember who you are dealing with. They are not logical people, they are people whose bonuses are based on spending least money to run the airline, not having the most qualified people to do it.

Would this be outweighed by the cost of not paying a cadet for 6 months? (I'd guess yes)Very likely correct, sadly.

[one post only!]

What I want to know is what happens at the end of the summer contract when 100 well trained guys are dumped onto the open market. Thats a lot of people suddenly all applying for the same (few) jobs at the same time!! Bun fight!

I guess EZY know this and will sit patiently waiting for most of them to come back again the following summer!

Follow BMRR's advice and join Balpa!

[roboa]

I have just noticed on the CTC website that there is a Downing Street petition to award British Trainee Pilots with official student status. If it were accepted would that mean that those looking for the finances for the course could apply for a student grant and if so how much of the total course fees would that cover?

cheers,
roboa

P.S I'm not all that knowledgable when it comes to stuff like this ;)

EDIT: If anyone wants it the link is here (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Student-Pilots/)

[no sponsor]

One Post Only

This is the unsustainable CTC business model. You cannot forever keep pumping out cadets. The 100 or so unemployed CTC cadets dumped at the end of Oct will be up for re-employment the following April. Except there is no longer 100, there are even more, since its been a full 12 months of cadet production at CTC. So maybe there are now 200 Cadets (i'm guessing at that figure, since I don't know their course numbers)? The new guys will be given preference, and so on. The following year, we have 300+ people. At some point the CAA will stop it, as there will be too many low houred people on the fleet.

In the meantime, I expect quite a few of those cadets will have loans whose weight will be too great to bear on such a work pattern.

Commodities are cheap, inexhaustible and replaceable.

[TheBeak]

Roboa you stand more chance of becoming the chief pilot of BA tomorrow than the government doing that anytime soon (as in, in the next 20 years). CTC have done it in the vague hope of more benefit to themselves so that there are more dreamers willing to part with money they will never be able to repay on a poxy 6 month contract earning peanuts. And of course to seem like great guys. I would recommend finding another way of funding your training or better still not bothering. I am astounded when I see people getting nervous about the CTC selection, can anyone post if they have actually failed it recently that has been to phase 3 or 4? There used to be people posting they had all the time back in the days but it never happens now. So has anyone?

And if you really think having 400 hours with Easyjet et al is going to make any differnece to anything take a look at the top of the Biz Jet Jet, Ag, GA section where guys and girls are posting there experiences and are looking for work.

[Zippy Monster]

And if you really think having 400 hours with Easyjet et al is going to make any differnece to anything...

Can I just second that... it won't make any difference whatsoever. I've been there. Nobody is interested in you with a minimum-hours fATPL and a bit of Airbus experience.

No Sponsor makes a good point. Many of this year's easyJet intake came out of their AQC in the early part of last year and have been waiting nearly a year to start their Airbus TR. These people will then be competing for the same jobs next year with the next bunch coming through the course between now and next year. That's a big increase in the number of low-hours pilots for not a great increase in the number of jobs. Meanwhile HSBC sit and happily count ever-mounting interest...

[roboa]

TheBeak, what makes you say that there is no chance? You also say that CTC are doing it for themselves (is the petition put up by them?) but surely it would help people unable to gain funding any other way...

[TheBeak]

Because the government has just spent trillions of our money on bugger all and need to get an income from somewhere. If there was a shortage of pilots, as CTC and OAA will have you believe, then sure maybe the government would look into VAT exemption or grants but there are probably 10 pilots to each job (that's a guess and possibly a hyperbole so no one start nit picking it) and more than enough desperate fools willing to secure integrated course fees against there parents homes or people willing to squander their hard earned saving on the modular route. There is no reason that the governement would do it at all, the standard has been accepted and 637 names in a country of 61,000,000 isn't going to change a thing. Take the difficulty in getting a loan to do pilot training as a sign. If it was worth it for everyone then it would be easier to get a loan and there would just be a grade requirement to get in to flying training as opposed to the pathetically low, token gesture of a pass mark 'required' by most flying schools. The only grade required, and now more than ever, is to have the access to the money, be it CTC, OAA, FTE or Cabair.

CTC are displaying it on their website to show they 'care'......They are also doing it because the more desperate wannabes out there who can get the money, the better for them. Surely that seems obvious. The major barrier is that not every parent is stupid enough to put their hard earned home up as security for the course fees. CTC may or may not have created the petition, it is pretty irrelevant.

[roboa]

Ok, cheers for your input mate!

[TheBeak]

No problem, it is ONLY my take on it. And good on you for maintaining your pleasantness despite probably being told what you didn't want to hear. Others could do with taking heed on this site!

[mattyh1986]

a lot of doom and gloom, I am currently in the process of applying for a position on CTC wings Cadet scheme, is this a big mistake?

[TheBeak]

There's no harm in applying and with regards to the outcome of actually training I don't know. I can't say this enough though, really think twice before you secure your family home against a loan with ANY FTO. It is insane. It isn't about obtaining the licenses or passing the exams, I am sure CTC can do that better than most but it is about finding employment - sustainable, long term employment that is going to pay 7-8 years of £1200 a month after tax. If you want to fulfil a life long pipe dream and fly a jet for 6 months, you probably should have started around about 2 years ago. Or you could start now, go modular and buy a job with Ryanair. Or you could get a PPL, train in something else and give it a swerve because it doesn't look like airline flying will be the same again. Training is all much too much of a business I am afraid.

[davepearsall]

my advice would be as long as you can afford the repayments then there shouldn't be a problem.

This is of course under the circumstances that you DON'T get a flying job after training. If you have a fall back career and have the ability to make the repayments then it is of course feasible.

[TheBeak]

no offence......but well done for stating the obvious. If you can meet the repayments then of course there is no problem but before living you would need to be earning pretty much £20000 just to service the loan. And I really don't believe in the second career thing much, I know trainees who are qualified doctors, engineers, cabin crew, architects, ramp agents, lawyers, accountants, ex military officers and none of them can get a job so what do you recommend? Shelf Stacker? But then comes the problem of needing £1200 a month just to service the loan so that counts that out.

[wirefly84]

It all comes down to peoples individual circumstances. I am going into this with my eyes open, and NOT assuming employment once i qualify.I believe in the 1 job to every 10 pilots estimate,however i think it is down to people to decide if they think they can compete in such a competitive industry. It is a very wise move to have a back up plan, I myself will be applying for permanent jobs suited to my degree way before i finish my training, also having saved up a 'contingency' fund if i dont find employment any time soon.Yes its a risk, and nobody on here can even guess what the industry will be like in 2 years time, however, if at every oppertunity you prepare for the worst and dont assume everything will be rosey,you will eventually have the edge when things do improve.Only time will tell, but i would much rather take the risk and work my arse off for 2 years in a dead end job paying my loan off, yes it wont be the high life and yes i wont have much to live on, but i couldnt care less as that knowing that 1 day i will live my dream will make it worthwhile, just depends how much you want it.People will say its their dream, but can you live with the consequences if things dont go to plan and be prepared to take responsibility for your debt? Thats where i think many cadets go wrong, and dont think the likely outcomes through.I myself am prepared to take this step - knowing the disadvantages far outweigh any possible advantages,that doesent make me a 'fool' just someone that is prepared to make the neccessary sacrifices to get where i want to be in life.

[TheBeak]

knowing the disadvantages far outweigh any possible advantages,that doesent make me a 'fool'

Uhhhhh yes it does.

You mention about planning for things. Murphies law is if something can go wrong it will do at the worst possible time in the worst possible way. An extended law of this is, if you plan to do something, things WILL go wrong, if you don't plan things, you will probably fail.

Your plan sounds a little idealistic despite how realistic you feel you are being. So you will apply for jobs will you? No one will take you seeing that you are quailfied as a pilot, they know you aren't intending to hang around. Unless you have some experience in something where you may be able to apply for a contract role but there aren't many around. Simply having a degree (who doesn't with 300,000 graduating this year alone) doesn't qualify you for anything, you need experience, much like being a pilot. So how do you explain your pilots license? Or how do you explain a 2 year gap in your C.V.? You are being blinded by the love of flying, and if you haven't tried it yet, you'll be even more blinded by it once you have tried it but get real.

Take your plans, remove your ability to apply for a job long before you qualify, remove your savings through things running on longer than you planned and then CONSIDER THE FACT YOU ARE WILLING TO SECURE AT THE END OF IT ALL £85000 ON YOUR PARENTS HOME!

[no sponsor]

Well, once the economy recovers, and it will, you will be entering an aviation industry which will not expand at the rate it has in previous years. EZY, RYN, and the others will be in a saturated market. There will be only so many more aircraft these airlines will buy. At some point, like most other airlines, the fleet expansions will stop, and you will face a situation similar to today even when the economy is OK.

[Zippy Monster]

CONSIDER THE FACT YOU ARE WILLING TO SECURE AT THE END OF IT ALL £85000 ON YOUR PARENTS HOME

Please, I implore you - don't do that. How much do you ACTUALLY know about being an airline pilot? Have you asked a real-life line F/O what the job is really like? Have you actually looked beyond the Ray-Bans and the nice uniform?

I can assure you - it's a great job, I wouldn't swap it for anything else. But worth putting my parents' house on the line? Considering the current economy and recruitment market? No. Trust me, it's not worth that.

Not saying don't train - but be sensible and don't be blinded by fancy images and FTO marketing and "the dream".

[TheBeak]

Please, I implore you - don't do that. How much do you ACTUALLY know about being an airline pilot? Have you asked a real-life line F/O what the job is really like? Have you actually looked beyond the Ray-Bans and the nice uniform?


Yes, I know, that's why I said re-consider the fact that anyone would be willing to secure the loan on their families home - it is insane. As for the uniform and the ray bans, I don't like the shirts, they never seem to fit and as for pilots who where Ray Ban aviators:=

[Zippy Monster]

Wasn't aimed at you, Beak... I was agreeing with you! ;)

[davepearsall]

TheBeak - I did indeed state the obvious. Short and sweet and got to the point, which makes a refreshing change on this forum!

It is certainly possible and there are many individuals that have come out of flight training, not got a flying job and haven't ended up with the bailiffs knocking on the door of their parents homes.

Suggestions of a job you ask, well I am lucky that I work in a Science Department in a school. Science teachers (especially Physics teachers) are much sort after. I still always get my local job paper (which is considerably thinner than usual for obvious reasons) but it always always advertising for teachers, cover supervisors and technicians.

I DO recommend getting a profession before commencing flight training. However make sure it is one where their are jobs readily available.

[Ollie23]

Just the motivational read i needed before hitting the ATPL books!!

Unfortunately it sounds pretty much spot on, those going through the wings selection process take note.

I was very lucky and had some inheritance so didn't draw on anything like the full loan, if I was faced with the prospect of servicing £1000+ a month for 8 years I would have run a mile.

[sharpclassic]

At last someone is talking some sense.

Anyone thinking of applying to CTC, Oxford, Cabair, FTE, anyone....

Listen to those of us who have been through the process. Those of use who are now in full time jobs. Those of us who have 400hrs on a A320 and can't even get a job in Tesco.


TAKE NOTE!!!!

[mattyh1986]

Guys, I appreciate everything your saying, but your making it sound like there is 0 hope for anybody becoming a pilot at the moment.

[nevilinio]

The Beak,

I would hope that most guys (and gals) who have entered this training would have thought about having something to fall back on. I for one have a fairly reputable degree with experience in the real world. I hear what your saying about 300,000 graduating this year, but not all of those will be doing mickey mouse courses with no job prospects at the end.

Listen to those of us who have been through the process. Those of use who are now in full time jobs. Those of us who have 400hrs on a A320 and can't even get a job in Tesco

Dude, thats lame, what does that say about the quality of the individual who is churned out the end of the training? Seriously! Maybe you need to lower your standards and go for McDonalds.

There are so many people on this forum, giving it their best to put potentially excellent pilots off from commencing their training. Who are they to say that when those guys (and gals) finish their training it will be exactly the same situation. I feel for those who are coming out of their training now, I do, but dont you think your efforts should be better spent focussing on improving your CV's or practising for those all important technical interviews rather than pulling others down? :ok:

Just a thought......

[BitMoreRightRudder]

what does that say about the quality of the individual who is churned out the end of the training?

I don't think you get it. It says nothing about the quality of the individual, and everything about the state of the industry and the type of people who hold management positions in airlines like easyjet. All the "who's the best pilot" c:mad:p you saw in Top Gun doesn't count for anything when you are trying to keep a job in the real world.

[d41xcs]

mmmm i just love the negativity around this place at the moment! i think we should start a new forum titled something along the lines of "Why you're stupid/deluded to apply to CTC/FTE/OAA etc", so that all those people who want to apply, but want someone else to tell them what to do, can get the advice they deserve.

Those people who have thought it through, properly, long and hard, should then be allowed to post on this forum, which i believe was originally set up to offer advice about the CTC selection process and the course thereafter.

[mattyh1986]

WELL SAID! , there is nothing wrong with people offering guidance and support but there is far too much negativity flying around (no pun intended). It seems like too many people see all wannabees as stary eyes dreamers who don't consider the facts.

[nevilinio]

D41xcs, Spot on :ok:

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Look, the only reason that people are on here posting words of caution is that we've all seen the starry eyed wannabe come out of training, be it from CTC or wherever else, with huge loans and no real sensible thought out back up plan. They believe the hype told to them by the training organisation, that after 6 months on type they'll be taken on for good and finally get a decent wage, or that another airline will be crying out for that 400hour + ( insert type rating here) guy that you are.

Well that was the world of a few years ago, but it isn't now and not for the forseeable future. So please, please, don't put all your eggs in one basket. THAT is all people are trying to say, take it from guys who are seeing things from the other side.

WBV

ps and it's not that everyone is a starry eyed dreamer, but it is exactly that that most wannabes DO not know all the facts and what is happening in the industry that causes them to make decisions based on insufficient info.

[Ollie23]

There are so many people on this forum, giving it their best to put potentially excellent pilots off from commencing their training.

Think you missed the point, i don't think anyone is trying to do this. People who have some experience of the system are just offering some much needed realism in the face of the spin you will hear from CTC throughout your selection and during the course. I found it helpful when i was deciding whether to go ahead or not.

[Jimmy08]

owwww handbags ladies...quite a few sour people on here isn't there! :ugh:

[99jolegg]

The 100 or so unemployed CTC cadets dumped at the end of Oct will be up for re-employment the following April. Except there is no longer 100, there are even more, since its been a full 12 months of cadet production at CTC. The new guys will be given preference, and so on.

Is any of this really true? Wasn't the number of cadets "dumped" around 32? Around 20 odd from EZY and 11 odd from MON? Haven't 90% of them already been re-employed at Aer Lingus, Gulf Air and EZY Swiss?

So maybe there are now 200 Cadets (i'm guessing at that figure, since I don't know their course numbers)?

So then why bother posting if it's just a guess and you actually have no idea as to the true figure? Apparently, there are around 52 in the hold pool at the moment.

[TheBeak]

Alot of you need to go see a therapist or something because you are not making sense. You are deluded. You will ruin your families lives. You are absolutely mad. But hey, at least YOU will get your little hoilday in New Zealand flying aeroplanes, get some time expiring licenses and be able to say you tried. I wouldn't hire any of you to fly a plane, you demonstrate SERIOUS Confirmation Bias ( refers to our tendency to seek evidence that will confirm our own opinion, or ignore or devalue that which does not. See also: Analysis, Intelligence analysis.
)- it's like navigation: don't convince yourself you are somewhere you want to be, you are where you are - even if it is 'lost'.

It says nothing about the quality of the individual, and everything about the state of the industry and the type of people who hold management positions in airlines like easyjet.

Absolutely right.

All the "who's the best pilot" chttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gifp you saw in Top Gun doesn't count for anything when you are trying to keep a job in the real world.

Yeah, you don't get much better than first time, first series passes in every flight test and over 90% average in ATPLs all with first time passes like most people I know have and still absolutely nothing. It is irrelevant. It couldn't be more meaningless.

Mattyh1986, one minute you are saying should you do the selection or not, the next you are saying anyone who says that it is a VERY bad idea, is just being negative. Do what you like mate, I am just offering the harsh reality.

Alot of wannabes need to get real. Whether you do the training or not ALOT of you, whether you do your training at OAA, FTE, Cabair or EVEN AMAZING, WONDERFUL CTC are going to stay as just that - a wannabe. It's nothing personal, it's just life.

Now go and get your loans boys and girls because you wont have taken a blind bit of notice, you know best and your gut feeling is always right. Everything always goes to plan and you CAN change the world by the power of positive thought.

Seriously though, good luck to all of you, you WILL need it by the ton.

[no sponsor]

99

Nothing wrong with the theory. My understanding from those I know from previous CTC courses was around 12 per course, up from 6 when the first courses ran. I don't know if this is now the case (one would hope not).

However, from other posts on here, I see 70 cadets were going to EZY for the summer, plus the others returning. You talk of 50+ in the holding pool. So although the numbers may be a little off, they are ball-park. Enough to illustrate the potential issues 12-24-36 months down the line if the present economy continues, fleets are not expanded, and 6 months of summer flying continues.

Interesting to see from the CTC website that they now offer self-funded TRs. Things must be quiet at Nursling

[sharpclassic]

Nevilinio,

If you were to look at the people offering their advice, support and help regarding the state of the industry over here in the UK at the moment, you'll see that they're all people who have been through and finished with CTC. Most of them are in full time jobs with their unfrozen ATPL, myself included... so please don't patronise me with your chat of trying for McDonalds.

You're in NZ, the weather is great, you're going for a jolly upto buzz the Sky Tower every so often before heading off to The Bank to do some wildlife spotting happy in the little fuzzy world created by the CTC spin machine that there are plenty of jobs available for you when you finish your training in a years time.

However, over here things are quite different.

I'm not saying things are at an apocalyptic level, but they are certainly not brilliant. XL pilots with thousands of hours who can't find a job here are having to move to **** holes like Lagos to fly (I had dinner with one the other day). Virgin are talking of chopping 60 pilots. Friends who have been in the British Airways DEC Hold Pool for nearly a year are just happy that BA have extended it to 18 months as there is zero recruitment.

What everyone is trying to say is that yes, you'll finish your course and get a type rating at some point, maybe a year later... but when you finish your time on the Flexi Wings scheme, you'll be joining the pile of (by then) hundreds of type-rated-but-low-hours pilots on the CV pile.... with a fecking massive loan to pay off.

As said previously, easyJet will not expand like they did previously. There has to be a saturation point in the market. Even if they do, it will be FlexiWings that feeds it.... good luck getting a mortage on a temp contract like that.

As negative as The Beak sounds, he/she has some very good points. We've got our full time jobs, we're fine thanks (for the time being anyways!). We're just trying to help you guys realise that it's not all as wonderful as CTC paint.

[TheBeak]

The situation is global as is the current recession/ depression. I would imagine aircraft currently on order are to replace ageing aircraft like at BA not to add to fleets. However that could just be my imagination running away with me. I would strongly recommend holding tight for a bit and consider getting a PPL. That will help you make progress whilst watching things run there course and will not hinder you at all with the likes of CTC, FTE, OAA etc. Even if you complete the CTC process, you don't have to sign up straight away - they have said you meet the standard and that should stand for a year or two while you assess things. Unless they are being pushy sales people which is surely not the way a pilot training organisation would be, would it?

[one post only!]

99jolegg,

I think nosponser was talking about post Oct09. Not Oct08. There were only a handful of guys dumped in 08, most of them have found themselves jobs. In Oct09 after this summer it will be very different numbers (in the region of 100). In early 2010 the guys dumped in 09 looking for another summer and the new graduates ready for summer 2010 could well be getting on for 200 people. Thats a lot.

[giraffe31]

Thanks the Beak for the answer....
I'm a bit relectant to getting a PPL if I do plan on going with CTC in the end as I'll have to do it twice, and pay for ti twice....
The whole question with CTC is that, in the 2 years it takes you to get through the course, will the sutuation be better or worse.....
Hard to tell....

[wirefly84]

yes I totally agree with having a profession,and I dont have to explain to the likes of 'the beak' what mine is,but trust me buddy i can get a well paid job whenever i want,but u miss my point.im saying that theres a good chance that i wont get a job as a pilot,i am not blinded by anything,especially ray bans,and my 'preparation',was far from idealastic.but i know i can get a job with a 1st class masters degree in my industry-fact.what "fool" is applying for jobs in tesco telling them your a pilot?u can blag a cv a bit their not the CIA!

[davepearsall]

Zetecy - That is the $64,000 question. No-one really knows when things are likely to pick up.

People can have educated guesses (which many have on here) but that is just it, it is guess work. Albeit educated.

[TheBeak]

It indeed would only be a guess for anyone. But alot of things are being undone in the airline world with pilots being laid off, pilots having to bond into airlines in countries where they otherwise wouldn't consider in a million years, pilots having to work on a contract basis, unpaid leave, paying to work - It has all changed forever and it would take a global strike to change it. The effect is to make surplus pilots, with plenty of experience, willing to take something rather than nothing on a time to time basis. That in turn makes the road to becoming an ACTUAL airline pilot a VERY uncertain, unpredictable and hugely risky one. As an opinion and not proclaimed fact, I would recommend not training for a good few years.


Taking advice from people who too want to train to be a pilot is also risky - Emotion can really cloud ones judgement, it does in everything, from pilot training to women/ men. You guys should look into what confirmation bias actually is on the internet, just type define:confirmation bias - And see if you can how the basis of your opinions and responses are in there a little.

With regards to getting a PPL and having to pay for it twice, that is not the case, there is the ability to do a shorter course and have money reimbursed. And the opportunity cost of doing it that way is worth it......IN MY OPINION.

[giraffe31]

Well I have to say, you are really making me think twice about this course.....
And I might look into getting a PPL first and then thinking of doing CTC afterwards....

[mattyh1986]

The beak, im not saying anyone saying its a bad idea is just being negative, I'm trying to say that things like this are not needed:

"Alot of you need to go see a therapist or something because you are not making sense. You are deluded. You will ruin your families lives. You are absolutely mad. But hey, at least YOU will get your little hoilday in New Zealand flying aeroplanes, get some time expiring licenses and be able to say you tried"

I appreciate advice and a bit of realism but I don't see how this helps, its like your are trying to scare people off. These sort of statements "you will ruin your families lives" don't help anyone. I appreciate the industry is in a bad way at the moment and I have full sympathy for anyone struggling right now, and nobody knows what the economy is going to do next or how long its going to take recover.

I am not living in dream land and I am not trying to convince myself that Its all going to be rosy, I am listening to everything everybody is saying and I think there are a lot of valid points and its really making me seriously question my next move, which is the whole point of this anyway.

Its a good idea to remain objective, and although people have some good theories of how the situation is going to develop nobody actually knows for sure. So you shouldn't tell people that they are about to ruin their families lives. Just as your should not tell people they are guaranteed a job and its all going to be happy days from here on out.

[wirefly84]

Mattyh86- absolutly spot on!

[bigjarv]

Ah the classic and renowned cycle of aviation! Good times then bad times then good times then bad times. Currently we are in a bad time and if the cycle will reveal itself as it always has before... the good times will follow. A guess but a guess which I am fairly confident about based on the past (we have seen it ALL before). So when will it happen? The good times that is! Goodness knows but a stern talk to CTC would be a good plan (I always found them to be fairly honest and open). Their future relies on successful placement of candidates which relies on a successful industry so they will have experienced, informed and connected people planning for the future. They might even give some good advice (imagine that!)! Obviously take their advice with open eyes as their motivation will be slightly different to yours but they probably aren't going to blatantly lie. A good chat to other schools for their opinions would be a plan. If you know pilots or aviation people whose judgment you trust, perhaps chat to them. Read flight international and the flight global web site. Maybe a newspaper or two or the economist cause the aviation industry's success is directly linked to the economy. Chat to an economist, a teacher, your dad, your mom, they have age, experience and perhaps knowledge on their side! Then and only then, armed with as much info as you can be bothered to gather, make your own decision.

I have no advice as I haven't done any of that research. I'm lucky enough to have been though all this already and am enjoying the rewards of my research and efforts. I have what I consider to be a brilliant job and hopefully it is secure enough to ride out the storm so I have other things to find out about!

Please please please get ideas from people on here but don't just blindly take their advice (no matter how persistent they seem to want to be!!)!! Would you really take advice from a total stranger on the street?! This is an anonymous rumor network! The key is in the name! Take ideas and thoughts from here, research good advice from trusted / known sources and make your own plan!

On a side note, don't give up the "Rayban" dream either! Everyone always remarks on how wanabees have "rose tinted glasses". Be proud of that! Believe me, you will always need them and they may even help the making of your success. Those glasses, like wine glasses, are good for many aspects of life!! The glasses and the desire to do the job are what makes our industry different and such a great place to be! I'm sure you have heard it before.. get a bunch of pilots together and they will talk aviation, get a bunch of accountants together and they will talk of anything but work! We are very lucky!!

[RobStob]

A very refreshing, well-balanced comment there, Bigjarv.

[bigjarv]

Thanks!!!!! :ok:

[Zippy Monster]

Some top stuff on here since last night - very entertaining reading after an early 4-sector slog.

What struck me is the reaction of people here to what they consider 'negativity'. The big problem is that things ARE now a lot more negative than they were a few years ago. People who have been through the course and contribute to this thread are not doing it just to irritate you and try to put you off training to fly. What would we have to achieve by doing that? I have a job and am happy. Uneasy about the industry and what the future holds, but generally happy. I'm not bothered whether you want to train or not, but what I AM bothered about is - having been there and done that - seeing wannabes fall hook, line and sinker for the FTO marketing nonsense and the bleating about a global shortage of airline pilots, etc etc. Please understand that the best people to learn about the course from, are people who have done it. People who can give you an objective, unbiased view of what it's like, what the job is like afterwards, and what it's like to shoulder that debt for 7 years (or longer) of your life. This is the kind of thing you don't hear about at dressed-up sales pitches and meet-and-greets. Understand that there is a difference between negativity and realism. Things ARE negative at the moment - that's the way it is. Please take this in the way that it's intended - not trying to preach or be patronising, just trying to be helpful. To those of you wise enough to do your research and think long and hard before committing to the course, like mattyh1986, well done - if you really feel it's for you, then do it, and I genuinely wish you the very best of luck with it.

Nothing will change my personal viewpoint that to risk your parents' home on training to enter a volatile industry that has thousands of experienced, qualified people out of work, during such a disastrous time for the economy, is a completely ludicrous thing to do. One of my father's colleagues has a son who started at one of the big integrated FTOs not too far back. He'd been taken in by the PR and marketing hype and remortgaged his house to enable his son to train. He is now in a constant state of worry at whether he'll still have a roof over his head in a couple of years' time once the repayments are due to start and his son can't even get a job stacking shelves. It's happening, and I don't know what it takes for some people to wake up and realise this. That £60k isn't just a number on a piece of paper that you can come back to another day. It's real money that you have to pay back, and a horrendously big chunk of real money at that. And when you find you can't, someone WILL come after you for whatever you've got it secured on. Think how you'd feel if you were helping your parents pack their car with whatever belongings they hadn't had repossessed to drive away from their lovely house for the last time after handing the keys to some faceless bank, with nowhere to go to. Is it a risk worth taking, for a "dream"? It's not like the old days when the money was unsecured, and believe me that burden is bad enough.

Is any of this really true? Wasn't the number of cadets "dumped" around 32? Around 20 odd from EZY and 11 odd from MON? Haven't 90% of them already been re-employed at Aer Lingus, Gulf Air and EZY Swiss?

22 from EZY - 15 of which were Wings Cadets, the rest Wings ATP. I believe it was 8 at Monarch, comprising 7 cadets and 1 ATP. Total 30. I don't know where you got this 90% figure from, but ONE went to Gulf Air, TWO went to EZY Switzerland and about 14, I believe, went to Aer Lingus. The rest either dropped off the radar or are going back to EZY this summer on FlexiCrew terms.

[wirefly84]

Zippy Monster - it is refreshing to hear the 'negative' aspects put in a concise respectable way,rather than patronising potential students. I totally take everything on board that you have said - and agree,after all you probably know best.Its good to hear this sort of advise rather than the 'you will ruin your lives' kind of talk.And i also agree it is not wise to risk your parents houses in such a volatile market - so a serious back up plan is essential.It just seem the 'rose tinted glasses' were being worn or 'starey eyed wannabees' were once actually the same people who come on this forum and literally insult others as they have come back down to earth in this ression after having 'been there and done that'.Yes you have the experience of the CTC hype and marketing machine first hand, but just give people the respect they deserve and try to use constructive critisism like Zippy Monster.It gets tireing reading the posts of frustrated unemployed pilots assuming every other potential trainee it a ****.

Zippy monster - what airline do you fly for if you dont mind me asking, and what is the morale amongst pilots like at the moment in your experience?

[TheBeak]

People appear rude because it is like banging ones head against a brick wall, pre-pilot training posters come up with the same 'i'll give it my all and come through a winner' chat non stop. I and others are giving advice for free because I feel it is my moral obligation to prevent others from making what I certainly perceive as a monumental mistake - one that will change your life for the worst forever. Get real, it really will unless you or your parents are loaded. If you pay me, you'll get it with a smile. Someone on here, I can't remember who, said they were a teacher and could fall back on that as a career - there are schools closing down as well you know - certainly private ones and there will be, as a result, surplus teachers. It wont be easy getting a job doing that either soon.

Look, there is no rule to it all and some people will get through all of this frictionless but it will be through who they know and huge amounts of luck - NOT an FTO or being a 'TOP GUN' pilot. Most wont. Ultimately you must do what you feel you must do but I am 99% certain that you will ultimately regret it, and that is coming from someone who loves flying more than anybody. No one loves it more. It isn't the flying that is the problem, it's the fact that too many underselected people are training to do it because training is too much of a business. As a basis you should need 3 Bs at A levels or to have followed a self improver route instructing and gaining experience - not just get debt, buy a job and devalue the industry, ANYONE can do it at the moment and that's why it is all such a mess - And look, I notice no one has come back and said they have failed selection recently......

[One9iner]

and what is the morale amongst pilots like at the moment in your experience?

(Before I provide an opinion/answer - I am not yet a commercial pilot so take what I say with a pinch of salt:ok:)

Fair question; but I'm sure 'morale' is fairly low across the board at the moment, and I don't just mean within aviation. Across the economy, from manufacture, finance, logistics, services, retail etc... everyone, within every sector are being beaten around the head by the big 'R'. OK, in times of a downturn, certain people and organisations prosper, but not so for the majority. My current job, although not under direct threat within weeks, could be within months!? who knows! This may not be true if you work for a company doing well, who don't need to cut costs, or if you are self employed with a controlled, sustainable and profitable customer base and you can survive with a sudden cut in available credit.

Because of the big 'R' I'd put my money on 'morale' within the aviation community being low (even with the experienced ladies and gents who still have a job with one of the flagships). I have a family member and a few close friends who work for a number of the heathrow based outfits (I'm still working on it ;)) and morale is lower than it was for sure. There's uncertainty across the economy.

Having said all that... I'd love to hear personal opinions from guys and girls inside the industry that all us 'wannabe's' are so 'stupidly' trying to get into.

Good luck one and all :ok:

[R T Jones]

I've also been following this and the upturn thread for quite a while now. What the guys who have been through the CTC course and are now employed with an airline are saying rings very true. My loan is unsecured and I'm very worried about how on earth I'm going to start paying it. I started at CTC at 19 a year after A-Levels and as such have no real fall-back. I was naive and went into the course without a real plan to pay back the loan if a flying job was not coming fairly quickly. When I started there were rumblings that things were not all rosy, the run on northern rock had just taken place etc. If my loan was on my parents house, I would be sh**ing bricks about what on earth was going to happen. I also admit that only when it became clear about the length of time it may take for a job to come along did I appreciate how big a 65k loan starts to look. In 16 months there its gathered 3k of interest.

I'm not due to finish for a few months, but there are at least 50 people in front of me for type ratings. The absolute earliest I think I'll be doing a type rating is this time next year. Thats if I'm lucky! Yes, I am on the pessimistic side, I do also think there are signs and rumblings that perhaps we are somewhere near the bottom of the trough. The FTSE has lost half its value, how much further can it really go?

I do believe the latest 2 cp's to head to NZ have been down on numbers, whether this is down to the finance or anything else I don't know.

To the people that have yet to start training and considering it, I would like to put my hat into the ring in support of getting a PPL to see if you do enjoy it. If CTC is your goal having a PPL will not hold you back at all. Do not get into debt you cannot pay back and DO NOT secure a loan on someone else's house. I truly do believe this to be sound advice. Take it as you will.

Finally I would like to say that however bad things seem at the moment, eventually they will become better. I don't believe we'll see the expansion we've seen in previous years, but I'm sure they said that during the 80's recession and the great depression in the 30's!

[Chilli Corneto]

And look, I notice no one has come back and said they have failed selection recently......

Out of the 15 people I saw at the Stage 2/3 day, I only know of me and one other whom secured a place.

[Bambe]

Only 10 in CP 71 and 11 in 72.... Only due to a lack of finance.
One more thing about the training itself. It is, on my own point of view, very steep. You'll be asked to take a massive amount of information in such a small amount of time.

With regards to the finance, be extremely careful. Even if I think CTC remains one of the best option, you won't get a salary until 2 YEARS from day one (and maybe more).

If I can give 2 advices here.

First, if you are young enough don't ruch into a FTO borrowing hudge amount of money. Be patient (I know it's hard), get some experience, save some money. I worked in the oil riggs in Canada, bloody hard job but saved enough to fund my training with CTC without borrowing one penny from any bank. My parents only gave me what is necessary to pay for my food here in NZ.
I'm pretty happy today not to have to worry about any loan re-payment.

And next, get a cabin crew job before with one of the partner. Try your best to meet people in charge of pilot recruitment and talk about CTC, get some information about what is a pilot typical day... And most of all, get some e-mail and keep in touch with these people on a regular basis.
After your training, they could be very very useful.

I have heard so much crap from some random people. Take your own personnal decision, be adult. If this is the job you want, you will get it.

[RobStob]

Out of the 12 at my phase 2/3, I was the only one who got in. Whichever way you look at it, there aren't that many people getting places. CPs are becoming increasingly sparse. I was originally heading out on CP72 that left at the start of the month. It ended up with very few cadets on it indeed. Easily below 10

[One9iner]

I'm heading off to an open day at CTC at the end of June. Hopefully fully armed with a list of questions regarding the size, state and prospects of current and future hold pools. Over the past 6 months I've had discussions with a number of the other main FTO's who offer an integrated course so it will be interesting to hear CTC's take on things. I'll report back anything of interest, but I'm fairly aware of what to expect.

Any specific questions people feel would be of value to ask?

(other than the obvious regarding; industry / economy / recruitment / hold pools / cp intake / finance / post course support etc...)

[sharpclassic]

Yup...

Why do CTC continue to take on so many cadets, sending such large CPs to New Zealand, knowing full well that there won't be enough jobs for all of them at the end of their training?

[One9iner]

Not sure what kind of response I'd get to that one but I'll try and rephrase and see what I get...:ooh:

[TheBeak]

Out of the 12 at my phase 2/3, I was the only one who got in. Whichever way you look at it, there aren't that many people getting places.

The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding. That or maybe, just maybe they have seen some sense. Given that it is a business, I'll go with the money option. RobStob, it's not that you are special, it's just that you are willing. Be careful mate, that's all I'll say, if you do do it, good luck.

[One9iner]

TheBeak... you're last post was of a more gentle nature than your norm. Which I welcome! I appreciate that words from someone who has 'been there done that' are a great source of information, if not the best source! But as has been stated, be careful when claiming that if 'you risk this, risk that, you'll end up putting yourself and your family in hell for years to come.'

I don't disagree that it's naive to risk Mum and Dads hard earned home, savings, pension etc... on an FTO in current times, but understand; all people are different, coming from different backgrounds, different families, financial situations etc... We all have a similar objective, that's why we're here discussing CTC on pprune! But everyone is different. Just be mindful that's all I ask mate. Certain people will take what they read on here as gospel - even though it's just bunch of personal opinions at the end of the day.
:ok:

[topcat970]

TheBeak.... I've just got through selection and not at one stage did they ask about how you are going to finance it. They take everyone on their own merit and whether they believe they will succeed and finance never comes into it. So you can hardly say that they only go on people with a couple of quid spare to pay for their wages. I again was the only person (who i know of) who passed selection within my group and subsequent stages. Within my group there was a 26year old who had been in the RAF for 8 years as a navigator. He, i presume, must have had a fair amount of capital, especially as he owned his own house. So you saying that is a load of bull basically

[One9iner]

topcat, well done on getting through! When do you go out to NZ?

How many people were there in your group out of interest? Also, if you got through over an ex RAF guy, you must have a decent amount of PPL hours under your belt?

Regarding people's financial status; like the RAF chap you met, at 26 I 'own' my own place as well, or 50%, the other 50% is owned by a sibling, and strictly speaking Abbey National own it and I owe them 50% of the remaining debt!

But in the current climate, it doesn't account for a great deal if you've only been paying the mortgage off for a few years. Negative equity and all that jazz! :yuk:

[TheBeak]

One9iner, I am pleased it was more to your liking!

Topcat1970, it's sentences like:

So you saying that is a load of bull basically

That make me say there standards can't be that high. You haven't put together any kind of argument and it is people like you, in particular, who are so unwilling to take on board advice and who are so veherment in defence of CTC in this instance (or any other FTO) - possibly because you feel you have achieved something at this stage and are a cut above the rest (which you really aren't), like your fellow the RAF navigator. I doubt he does have much money after 8 years in the armed forces but anyway. As I have said a million times before, you go and do what you have to do and come back and tell us when you have been an FO for 6 months, have paid off NONE of your £85000 debt and have to go and work in a supermarket, if they'll take you after you have done all of this.

I warn you though, with a response like that, you of all people could be heading for a BIG shock - not because I feel you were particularly nasty in any way but because you seem so naive and so arrogant about having passed selection......the higher you go, the harder you fall, mate.

[topcat970]

Ermm well not really. I was merely referring to the fact that it's bull that they only take you on your bank balance, which is what you were inferring, as they didn't ask me anything about finance throughout the whole selection. I can't really see anything bigheaded and arrogant about that....

[One9iner]

TopCat
I was merely referring to the fact that it's bull that they only take you on your bank balance, which is what you were inferring




TheBeak
The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding


TheBeak - Topcat's got a point..... :rolleyes:

[99jolegg]

I second the above.

The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding

Rubbish.

Phase 1 is application form and some essay questions
Phase 2 is maths and aptitude
Phase 3 is team building and interview
Phase 4 is simulator assessment

If anybody completes those successfully, they're through. Whether they make it to NZ is another matter. They could well have to pull out because they can't arrange the finance / medical etc but it's nothing to do with CTC or their selection process...

[mattyh1986]

When I went there was 8 of us, 4 didn't get past stage 2, and only 2 of us (as far as I know) have got through to stage 4. At no point was finance discussed.

TopCat, some people will rubbish your achievement but you have jumped through hoops during CTC selection and it is not easy, hold your head up high and know it had nothing to do with what's in your wallet.

Thebeak, im afraid I get the feeling some of your posts have gone from being really informative and eye opening to very unhelpful and slightly aggressive.

[Chilli Corneto]

Hmm I agree Topcat. Now TheBeak, I have bitten my lip with this thread as I don't really want to start an internal arguement with essentially someone from the same CTC Family. However here are your more prominent points:
You say those that have been successful have only got through because they have the finances to do it.
You harp on singing the same tune over and over again. Don't do it as you will end up with £80k+ worth of debt with no way of paying it back when you graduate.Well please consider my couter-arguement:
Surely back in the day when you were lucky enough to get an unsecured loan, wouldn't CTC know that a higher proportion of applicants could secure funding for the course? Therefore they were more confident at the earlier stages that the majority of applicants wouldn't have a problem financially? Compared to nowadays where only a small proportion of applicants can source the required finances? Additionally a lot of applicants are weeded out of the selection process before they even sit in front of the selection team where they can be grilled about their financial status? Surely if CTC were so confident nowadays about the finance being unproblematic then a high percentage of people would actually get through to stage 3? That wasn't the case on my stage when I was doing stage 2.
I appreciate your comments about being £80k+ in debt when you're out but please realise that this is not the case for some cadets. If you're justifying your arguement for not training now because of this much debt being accrued then I can happily say: "Thanks for the advice mate but I am not loaning anywhere near that amount of money to fund this" Thus your arguement for not doing this really doesn't apply to me as I am fortunate enough to have extra capital put aside to fund the remainder of the course. Yes I am bloody lucky but I am not going to apologise for my personal circumstances! It is also worth noting that I have a degree and career to fall back on should I need it that will comfortably pay back my loan repayments should that become necessary.Without being rude I think you are making a mockery of the CTC's selection process as I can confidently say that not many (in my experience) even get through to the position where they can explain their financial status to CTC. Have CTC lowed their selection standards to compensate for this? Again not in my experience.

Not only that but you very close to insulting those that have been successful. I'm certainly not going to say sorry for fitting the bill that CTC are after. I agree we're not any better than any other cadets and it would be arrogant to say we're the cream of the crop. We're learning to be airline pilots and I don't consider myself to be any better than my mates who have gone through or are going through other FTO's. We all have the same ambition and goals and will take whatever path best suits our own individial circumstances. For me it isn't a huge financial risk so arguing I will be £80k in debt at the end of it does not wash. I won't be, fact!

I am fully aware of the current climate, economy and industry and although it is very dire it will pick up. By the time I am out it may be a lot better. It may be a lot worse but nobody can predict it. If they think they can please tell me lottery numbers tonight! ;)

TheBeak I don't want to get your back up or start a petty fight but please try and play devils advocate! For some cadets, your arguements for not starting are really pretty irrelevant.

Chilli.

[mattyh1986]

Please don't reply telling me I'm stupid and naive and uninformed and im going to destroy mine and everybody's lives if I progress with CTC. I'm not saying that what your saying is wrong and you have some vaild points and its very important anybody considering an FTO gets as much information as possible in order to make an informed decision, its why Im on this forum and its why others come on this forum. (However this is still a Rumour network not fact)

It has been boldly highlighted that its a VERY risky game at the moment, lets leave it at that and trust that everybody understands.

[RobStob]

Exactly 99.

I wasn't even approached about my finance until after selection, so how on earth did it have any bearing on whether I got in or not? There were only 4 of us remaining after the maths/aptitude tests alone, which was hardly influenced by my financial background. 3 of us passed interviews, and only I passed the sim assessment. TheBeak, you have some very valuable and level-headed advice, but I have to completely refute your sugestion that financial status dictates who is offered a place. I could credit that if they queried it during selection, but they just don't. That's not me being arogant or exhibiting naivety, just outlining how they are approaching selection, from someone who has recently gone through the process. Also, there were people in far, far better financial status than me at selection who didn't get through.

Oh, and second that post, Chilli! I didn't see your post when I wrote mine! Spot on, mate.

[One9iner]

Very well put Chilli Corneto. :D

[TheBeak]

99jolegg maybe you should be a in poilitics or journalism hat I actually said was:

The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding. That or maybe, just maybe they have seen some sense. Given that it is a business, I'll go with the money option

not just:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBeak
The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding


And who said I trained with CTC? I have referenced my posts throughout to ALL FTOs. It isn't just CTC at all, it's all FTOs, FTE were probably the most salesy I dealt with of all as it happens. You go and enjoy your training and if CTC or any other FTO wont filter out the crap at least the banks will filter out some.

That's all, good luck, be positive and I hope it is all as great as you all 'believe' for all of our sakes.

[One9iner]

Someone needs to grow up

[99jolegg]

99jolegg maybe you should be a in poilitics or journalism hat I actually said was:


The only reason that you'd be the only person through is because of funding. That or maybe, just maybe they have seen some sense. Given that it is a business, I'll go with the money option


Yes, you did...but the last part makes no sense to me so I left it out...

From what I can understand, you're saying that CTC have seen some sense, so have let him through to make some money? :confused: Either that or your second sentence just suggests you are sticking with your original statement. No idea what you're getting at.

[TheBeak]

Wow they have lowered the standard haven't they? I was saying OR maybe, JUST MAYBE they have seen some sense. i.e. They (being CTC) have seen some sense and aren't behaving like a business and are not just taking people for the sake of the money and are infact they are retaining some standards. I couldn't possibly comment on which option it is but by the sounds of you it is just some people don't have the money.:ok:

[bigjarv]

I love it when people resort to using "quotes" to defend themselves. Particularly when it is a quote of their own post!!! Tee hee!! :D

All I can add is something I have said before. CTC's success relies on people being successful and being satisfied. That applies to student and employer. To my knowledge both are currently, on the whole, pretty happy and have got what they paid for. They must be doing something right! That includes their selection process (which is basically stolen from BA without the psychometric testing).

It's bloody hard getting into CTC. Well done guys.

Bleak! I think you have probably made your point. Lets move on! Have you read your own posts by the way?!?! Very useful feature that read over peoples every post thing! Can you not see how people may react to your comments? Writing style is as important as the content! Much like body language counts for much more than what you say! In your posts its like you are waving your fists at people with smoke coming out your nostrils!!! Just some advice for you. Well done for opening peoples eyes thou. You are right to draw attention to the costs and the economy.

[wirefly84]

just a positive post for once- today at work (heathrow airport) I spoke to 2 ba captains,1 senior fo,and 4 fos, all seem to think its a good time to start training,the captains even said theyve seen this cycle before,and all regard ctc very highly,even coming frm oxford and cabair themselves,there exact words were "go for it".

[topcat970]

Finally some positive news! Thanks Wirefly.

Thumbs up to Chilli as well :D