The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[air_wolf]

"i'll briefly summarise my thoughts..."

thanks for saving us from the long version EvelcyclopS.

[EvelcyclopS]

im off work with a broken foot at the minute so i've got bugger all better to do! :}

[Kerosine]

I for one enjoyed reading your post EvelcyclopS. Sorry to hear about your disappointment with the flying career but trust your current job is treating you well.


[Grammar Pedant]
Paragraphs would have saved my eyes a little though :ok:
[/Grammar pedant]

[EvelcyclopS]

better?

there was summit up with my interweb before, i tried a few times to sort the old paragraphs but it seems to have worked this time

[TheBeak]

A good post EvelcyclopS. It's amazing, the people that say they have decided to leave commercial flying alone are without question the most reasoned, factual, sensible people I have heard within the industry and probably the ones who SHOULD go for it. They ignore their emotions and look at the facts - a quality that would see you good in non-normal flight. For what it is worth I do think you have made the right choice - you shouldn't mix business and pleasure and that is what has happened to this industry and I can assure you, ruined it beyond repair.

I maintain that you'd be crazy......no I'll be nice, you'd be brave to go near CTC within the next 9-10 months, these will be their most telling (and NOT because I have anything against them) - and rest assured 9 -10 months (especially now) will not make you miss the boat. It says alot about people how they are when they are winning and they are losing - look how all the FTOs have been in these terrible times i.e. one of the toughest times to place a pilot in the history of aviation (relatively speaking and for all the wrong reasons) and with people becoming ever more uncurrent and ever more disheartened. If they wanted this to be, it should be an opportunity for them and any other FTO to be the ONLY choice - sacrifice a relatively small amount of income now for a large amount in the future. There should be people coming on here and fighting for their FTOs, saying how loyal and supportive they have been. Instead it is nothing but bent truths, 'selling' and manipulation. And that is across all integrated FTOs.

Luck IS timing, get it right and you'll be very happy with life, get it wrong and you'll be one of those 'life is unfair' types - and no not like me! Don't rush into things, be lucky.

[Zippy Monster]

There should be people coming on here and fighting for their FTOsI'll come on here and defend CTC's standard of training and the Wings programme in general. I have problems with their communication, but generally they are one of the best around in terms of job prospects.

But I don't owe them anything, I paid them a lot of money and now I have a well paid job on an Airbus. The course for me did what it said on the tin. I wouldn't recommend anyone start an integrated course with any FTO right now. It is nothing against CTC, I just think paying silly money up front in these turbulent times, particularly when it's secured against a property of some sort (as it is with many people) is complete idiocy. Just my opinion.

When times are good, I will be on here proclaiming CTC's name loud and clear.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

EvelcyclopS a thousand thank you's. Truly you are a hero. You came, you saw, you left AND you posted about it. The vast vast majority do not post about leaving. Many do, its the best decision, but they have no incentive to relate the fact.

You would have made a fine commercial pilot.


CTC like all flying schools at present are merely following airlines in their fight for survival.

Best of luck in your new endeavours,

WWW

[Air_One]

In response to a previous question I got posted the following information in a PM.....

Some very good inside / honest information for anyone currently considering spending serious money on a CTC course.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello there, I'd prefer to stay anonymous but feel free to post this:

To the best of my knowledge, there are roughly 70-80 cadets in the official hold pool, this includes 15 ATP and 5 Wings cadets who have already done a white-tail A320 type rating. This is set to grow by 14 people a month.

I was told by someone that the ATP guys got to do the TR instead of Wings Cadets because they had been in the Pool for more then a year.

Dropping guys after 12 months would be pretty bad PR for CTC and tragic for cadets. We did sign the contract that stated they could do this though.

easyJet took 70 cadets this year as Flexicrew. Will they need new cadets as well as the current Flexicrew for next summer? Will they even need the FC guys back?!

BA/Thomson won't be hiring for at least 2-3 years.

Not sure about the other airlines, anyone care to comment on the situation at Thomas Cook, Monarch, Jet2, DHL, CityJet, JetStar?

Aer Lingus took guys recently. However they are cutting LH routes and transfering LH pilots to SH so I don't think there's much scope for placement at the moment.

I do think CTC are doing all they can to place people. Like you already said though, they can't force airlines to take us on. There is only so much CTC can do at times like this, the industry at the moment is terrible.

Good luck to everyone, we definitely need it.

[pilotguy08]

Cheers 99jolegg much more helpful:ok:

Also I don't know if these have ever been posted about, I'd be surprised if at least one of them hasn't but there definitely worth a look.

Petition to: Freeze student pilot loans until such time that the economy and therefore aviation industry recovers and we can find work. | Number10.gov.uk (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/pilotloans/)

Petition to: award official student status to british trainee professional pilots... | Number10.gov.uk (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Student-Pilots/)

[v6g]

EvelcyclopS - I don't usually comment on these but you're post sounded so familiar - good decision making mate.

I'm sure you won't look back. In fact, I'm willing to bet that in 10 years time - you'll be in a senior extremely well-paid position in your microbiology career with your own home (mortgage paid off), something that you'll almost certainly never achieve in aviation - and also hold a commercial pilot license. You will have gained your PPL + night + CPL over countless weekends of having fun at your local grass strip and then be instructing in your spare time.

I made that same decision as you back in 1999 and boy I'm so glad I did. The opportunities that I've had could never had been matched had I been financially shackled to an aviation career.

When I look at the people I know who hold commercial licenses - most of them have main careers in other industries.

[DTOW]

Hello Cadets (UK and NZ)

As you are aware, we introduced the Zenbu internet system on June 1 – this was introduced to curb the excessive internet use for non-training and communications home by cadets in CTC accommodation. Most of you realise that NZ is limited in internet usage and does not have an option by any IT provider for unlimited usage. The new government has recently awarded contracts to Australia to improve the availability and speed in NZ, and this investment will take a few years.

We provide the internet for training reasons, in particular, Tracker, Weather Info, accessing Air Law, NOTAMS and the Schedule and recognise the need for contact with home.

Last week Zenbu started to have faults at Clearways and Peachgrove, this continued for 4 days with our IT Company initially unable to pinpoint the problem.

It has now been determined that the faults have been caused by cadets ‘hacking’ into Zenbu or trying to bypass it for free internet. The Peachgrove IT cupboard had been forced open, our system reset and our timer removed. This abuse of CTC property is totally unacceptable as is the hacking into any IT system in use at CTC.

Out of respect of cadets needs for contact home and study – we changed from Zenbu back to ordinary free internet, until problems were resolved on the Zenbu system.

Using recently introduced monitoring tools we can see that within 1 hour of switching back to the free internet, some cadets were downloading at extreme rates and we were able to pinpoint these cadets as well as what sites they were downloading from. One cadet downloaded 4.2GB in less than 10 hours (extrapolate that out to a month and it is 120GB for a month for that cadet). Downloads were from sites clearly not approved at CTC.

All of the above behaviour from cadets is totally unacceptable – our records show it is mostly 20% of cadets using 80% of the internet bandwidth. CTC showed respect to cadets by quickly switching you to free internet whilst problems with Zenbu (caused by cadet interference) were resolved. CTC expects the same respect from cadets, and that the policy you all signed on arrival is observed.

From today, any cadet found downloading to the extreme and accessing sites that are prohibited by CTC policy (decided solely at CTC's discretion) will be instantly disconnected from the internet and immediately suspended from training under grounds of “gross misconduct” and will attend a DHoW review to assess suitability to continue on the programme.

Any cadet identified as having hacked into the CTC IT system or tried to circumvent Zenbu or any other monitoring system put in place will immediately be suspended from training under grounds of “gross misconduct” and will attend a DHoW review to assess suitability to continue on the programme.

Cadets are reminded that anyone terminated from the programme on the grounds of gross misconduct WILL NOT receive any failure protection.

Do not under estimate how seriously CTC is taking this issue – if, as an employee in almost any business, including an airline, you were caught downloading pornography or hacking into an IT system you could expect instant dismissal and likely face criminal charges – your training here should be considered to be the same sort of environment.

This problem can be controlled by the sensible and professional 80% of you not tolerating what the other 20% are doing – help us control or eliminate these people from our training organisation – the consequences for you all will only become more severe if the individuals causing these issues are not curbed.

Please read this and absorb the contents well – our patience on this issue is at an end.

Regards

A mate of mine sent me this. Initially, I thought it was a joke, but apparently this was genuinely sent out by a CTC director. Presumably, all those cadets out there who happen to say something CTC find distasteful, so defined "solely at CTC's discretion" will also be sent to the gulag or to toil in the salt mines.

Absolutely bloody farcical.

[TheBeak]

I'll come on here and defend CTC's standard of training

I am certainly not disputing that, I would too for my flight school.

[sharpclassic]

Oh dear DTOW, publishing of top secret data from the bastion?! Well, that's one way to reduce the number of cadets entering the hold pool ;-)

[Zippy Monster]

Basically all they're admitting in that message is that despite numerous attempts, nothing has really changed in the last three years or so!

[Bambe]

Except that we now can only use 3GB a month... If you want more you can get more.... 100$ per GB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kerosine]

A mate of mine sent me thisProbabtionary Ppruner, post number 1... Not willing to post on your normal account?

Presumably, all those cadets out there who happen to say something CTC find distasteful, so defined "solely at CTC's discretion" will also be sent to the gulag or to toil in the salt mines.What nonsense, it's not North Korea out here. They have an issue with downloading tens of gigabytes from bittorrent and/or downloading of porn. I don't think they're being unreasonable in that, I certainly wouldn't expect them to give us a 'porn allowance'.

Pprune is listed as one of their 'approved sites', so I don't think they're trying to hinder our 'freedom of expression'. Let's be honest, CTC have their hands full (and some) and doubt very much they would be hiring a crack team of specialists to decipher and censor our emails and other internet traffic. They seemingly will only take issue with the website (eg. porn.com) or volume of traffic.

The internet, before they brought in Zenbu, was abysmal; slower than dialup. At least some restriction on downloading has freed up bandwidth for those who want to check their emails/speak to family on Skype etc.

It's not the best situation to be in but I personally have greater things to worry about (training, job markets, what's on for dinner etc)

[DTOW]

Kerosine. I think you miss the point. It is yet another example of CTC's appalling record of communication with cadets. Who could forget the time the CFO in NZ turned the internet off at Clearways without telling anyone, saying "You are here to study, not to surf the internet."

Further, the fact that CTC talk about internet "misuse" constituting "gross misconduct" and threatening offending cadets with suspension from training is just ludicrous. Those out in NZ are, and have always been, customers of CTC; they ARE NOT employees. I look forward to their first attempt to chop, without a refund, a cadet on the grounds of internet misuse.

[Zippy Monster]

Who could forget the time the CFO in NZ turned the internet off at Clearways without telling anyone, saying "You are here to study, not to surf the internet."

Neglecting to realise, of course, that doing so cut off access to Tracker and the NZ weather service, both of which were pretty essential for study and flight planning purposes. Going in for early flights with a blank PLOG and virtually no planning done due to lack of internet access and having to explain the reasons to unsympathetic ops staff was a low point...

Like I said in an earlier post I'll always defend their standard of training, but this sort of thing is where CTC let themselves down. I understand the problems, I was as frustrated as anyone when the internet repeatedly broke due to people going OTT on BitTorrent, but their response to things like this usually consists of wield sledgehammer first, ask questions later.

[air_wolf]

you dont need the internet to fill out a plog!

be grateful chaps.......least you dont have to live in dey street. no internet there, just grey 10'x5' prison cells.

[TheBeak]

Now that is funny! What is wrong with guys downloading a bit of porn? You ship them 12000 miles away from their girlfriends/wives/boyfriends:suspect: and expect them never to have a Tommy? They need material for goodness sake. That would be hilarious (initially at least) if someone was kicked off this course for masturbating over porn watched over CTCs internet. Who indirectly pays for the internet anyway?

[Zippy Monster]

you dont need the internet to fill out a plog

So you have a flight going 15 minutes after the training centre opens, which gives you enough time to get the tech log, pre-flight and get signed out by an instructor. How do you find out what the winds aloft are, spend time marking your map and working out your headings and times accordingly? And check the weather along your route? When I was there, it was done first thing in the morning, about 5:30am. From Clearways, over the internet.

least you dont have to live in dey street. no internet there, just grey 10'x5' prison cells.

Please tell me they don't still use that place... I would have packed up and called it a day if my stay there was much longer than it eventually turned out.

[sharpclassic]

Beak,

I love your bluntness. Amazing.

Why don't we set up some kind of special appeal?. If anyone has any old DVDs/CDs that they no longer want/need to get rid of, maybe they could send them to the deprived cadets in New Zealand?

Please send all your unwanted Spank Bank material to...

'Porn for Pilots'
CTC Training Centre
Hamilton Airport
Hamilton
New Zealand.

Just £2.95 (P&P) a month can help alleviate the stress and anguish of a deprived trainee pilot. Do something good today. Give porn.

[Screwballs]

None of you will have jobs to pay for the £60,000+ debt you now have around your neck and this, this is what you are complaining about?

:rolleyes:

[kirsten299]

Hi,
This is my first post of pprune! is anyone going to be at dibden manor for selection on the 21st july? Would be good to hear from people!!
Kirsten

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You see. They keep coming. The Wannabe Zombie army is inexhaustible and unrelenting.

You can tell them there are no jobs. You can tell them that instead of being treated like a customer spending £70k they will be treated like an inmate. You can tell them that the job is no longer worth the time, money and risk. And still they come. Relentless. Uninformed. Intent.

It is distrurbing.


On the topic, I'd ignore whoever wrote this hysterical memo. If they suspended you from training for breaching an internet use policy which you hadn''t signed up to via contract terms and conditions (which you haven't) then you could sue them for costs and distress and to be put back into the position you would otherwise have been in. Whoever wrote this thinks he's a headmaster running a school. Where in fact he's a manager selling a product to a customer. He needs a slap in the face (metaphorically).


WWW

[TheBeak]

Exactly, VERY well said WWW.:D

[Scott Duch]

Kirsten299, I see you did aeronautical engineering at glasgow uni.....im starting there in september, a purposeful way to pass 4/5 years to see where this industry is heading before i even think about going to the likes of CTC - the money is silly right now.

[one post only!]

So CTC want you to consider yourself as an employee. Despite the fact you pay a heck of a lot of money to "work" there!! But if you are to be treated like an employee are you then not eligible for certain employee rights? Like proper union representation?? Proper Balpa membership might have helped some of the previous EZY cadets out last summer!!!!

Jeez, what ever happened to just having a quiet word. "Lay off downloading the porn, if you carry on you will go blind and lose your medical." Always better received than "if you even so much as catch a glimpse of some b00bs on-line and you are fired!!!!!!"

[pilotguy08]

WWW just because there're no jobs right now doesn't mean there won't be jobs in two years when cadets who start training now will finish training. Now I know this is a biased thing to say but Lee Woodward said at the CTC open day that BA were expected to need new 400 pilots in 2011 which sounds like good timing if you sign up now. And before anyone decides to repeat that I've said it's a biased thing for Lee Woodward to say remember I've told you it's a biased thing to say!

And to anyone who says they're going to wait and see what happens to the industry over the next few years remember the cadets coming out today went in when the industry was good and look what happened in two years...

Also it has been said before, "timing is luck!"

[EvelcyclopS]

lets go round a-gain

baby we'll turn back the hands of ti-ime

lets go round a-gain...

one more time...

[londonmet]

Now I know this is a biased thing to say but Lee Woodward said at the CTC open day that BA were expected to need new 400 pilots in 2011 which sounds like good timing if you sign up now.

Quite a lot of what he says is utter bull**** though. :mad:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, flying training salesman predicts surging future demand for pilots - you could blow me down with a feather.

Lee Woodward wants you to spend your money. Nothing more.


WWW

[EK4457]

He also probably failed to mention that even if this outrageous prediction does occur, they will have at least 400 in the holding pool anyway.

It's currently at around a hundred with 20 cadets per month being added. PLUS the ATP fools.

Don't buy it! Literally.

EK

[TheBeak]

Lee Woodward said at the CTC open day that BA were expected to need new 400 pilots in 2011 which sounds like good timing if you sign up now

It's just laughable. Unbelievable.:ugh:

[alex1982]

Hi guys! I'm new here!! Sorry for same maeesage on the other CTC post, but i don't know which is right for my post.. :rolleyes:
Anyone has applied to ctc wing atp 2 part?? i've just received the mail for apply at this!!
Anyone know when there is the next 2 part selection? and who will go there? I don't have still the date.(it' possible they call me before and of July?)

If some people have done already this part,can give me some suggestion or tell me what i can expect in this second selection?I'm really worried!!:ugh:

PS:
can be a good way to get the first job??

Thx at all guys!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[EvelcyclopS]

This isn't a snipe, but before you do anything with CTC, you should try to improve your english, at the minute, it is likely that you wouldnt proceed as you english isnt quite up to scratch.

CTC had an excellent reputation for starting the careers of many pilots however these days there is very little chacne of achieving a job within the next three years...

If you get selected at the minute, you would come out after 2 years with a fATPL, a 100,000+ loan, and no job... sorry, but that is how it is...

Here's an idea, come over here to britain, do a degree at one of our universities which will take you 3 years, you'll come out with a degree and a total grasp of english, and youd be in a much better situation to assess which FTO to go to

[alex1982]

yes i know that and i know also it's not easy find any jobs now. But ehy here you need try try and retray again even if you fail!! If you wait no any jobs come to find you ;)
For the english can't be really a problem cuz my problem is only with grammar, no problem about speaking,listening or read and i can practise that with an English school.
Never give up on this career! :=
But thx for your suggestion!:ok:

[Air_One]

Lee Woodward said at the CTC open day that BA were expected to need new 400 pilots in 2011 which sounds like good timing if you sign up now

Is this the same BA that is going bankrupt and asking their staff to work for free !?

I think unfortuantly the 'no jobs for 2 or 3 years' is probably the reality.

If you get selected then be prepared to fund 2 or 3 years in a hold pool waiting for a job :sad:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

EvelcyclopS - I'd urge reticence in giving advice until you've got a little more experience of the industry. At this moment in time easyJets only expansion is in Italy for its successful base in Milan and its new base in Rome opening in November. alex1982 would probably be viewed as leagues ahead of you in terms of cadet pilot recruitment within easyJet - unless your Italian is as good as his English...

Ryanair is much the same. Monolingualism is starting to be a real weakness now that we have pan-European airlines. You think the passengers on tonights Rome - Madrid want to hear a plummy British airline voice speaking in a language they don't understand?

Right - back to thread topic.


WWW

[Bambe]

Well, if I believe what I read I'm going to wait ages before "maybe" starting my line training.
Just to get a rough idea, how much should I expect for my licences renewal? I understood it has to be done once a year... Can anyone enlight me on this point.
Thanks

[gyni]

We're comparing flying to having sex now? Think some of you need to realise the realities of commercial flying. If you want an analogy about sex how about this one?...pay £££££s for training but you're the one that gets treated like a whore...well and truly screwed!

[SW1]

At least the whore pockets the cash, we just get shagged and dont see a dime back.

Its more like a peep show. We pay all this money just to get a glimpse of that nice thing we all want but we'll never touch it. At this point in time!

On a more relevent note whats the deal with the CTC Flexicrew scheme?

Is this the way things are moving? 6 month contracts here there and everywhere for the rest of our careers.

CTC Aviation Group plc - Home (http://www.ctcaviation.com/flexicrew/pilots.html)

[Zippy Monster]

ScottFlyer, you know that is a ridiculous analogy, in more ways than one. What exactly is the point you attempt to make with it? If I'm correct what you're saying is that, despite the lack of jobs and oversupply of out-of-work pilots in the industry, it's a good idea to start training anyway just in case, by chance, you find a job? How can you compare trying to have a baby with spending upwards of £75k on training to be a pilot?!

Perhaps you should have a chat to some of the guys sitting in the hold pool until next spring at the very earliest, and even then with a high degree of uncertainty about their situation. SW1's "peep show" observation absolutely hits the nail on the head.

[TheBeak]

I'll second that Zippy on both accounts.

Is this the way things are moving? 6 month contracts here there and everywhere for the rest of our careers.


If it is I am writing off my costs, there is no way I want that kind of life for my future family. Anyone who does is selfish. I also don't think I or anyone else would be particuarly safe with that level of inconsistency throughout. There is only so much a text book can teach you and only so much a 'check' can find.

It's amazing, the FTOs and the airline management are responsible for all of the mess, and, pilots, cabin crew and engineers - all the specifically, usefully qualified people, suffer. Load factors are generally very good from what I hear from friends more fortunate. The airlines management have over ordered, over paid, mis-judged and under sold and yet they still keep their jobs and pay. The problem for us is too many lemmings with an unhealthy disrespect for money and a selfish attitude in that they are willing to ditch everyone and everything just so that they can 'love their job'. What lies ahead cannot be drawn from the past - guaranteed. Really think about the instability a 6 month contract once a year is going to have on any kind of family life. Try getting a mortgage on that basis. Try having a nice Christmas over the 'less busy period'. OOORRR of course you can go and work in Vietnam or Nigeria for the other 6 months and ditch or affect your family again. Then maybe one day, if you have the resilience and brass ones to stick out you may get something a little firmer, perhaps for the last 15 years of your life. It is insane, people are missing the point of life. Experience is priceless in this industry. Introducing the flexicrew scheme has set a ruinous road for the future of pilots starting out. Sure it may well work for older pilots looking to wind down, it may in fact work very well. But For us at the beginning of careers it spells a life of worry, instability and distraction.

[ed_boy]

It's currently at around a hundred with 20 cadets per month being added. PLUS the ATP fools.

Are these the ATP fools that are currently flying for easyJet then?

I'd get your facts straight before making such sweeping detrimental comments.

:mad:

[GBB]

I think EK was trying to say, that RIGHT NOW only an idiot would want to overpay for a privilege of 12 month in their pool with no job at the end.

[TheBeak]

Are these the ATP fools that are currently flying for easyJet then?


As I understand it from a VERY relaible source no they aren't.

not even the mighty Beak

How do you know my middle name? Do I know you ScottFlyer?:p

[Eddie Hitler]

TheBeak,

You might want to check your source as they have proven VERY unreliable in this case.

There are a number of ATP pay-to-fly pilots back flying with easyJet this year. They have been taken on through CTC's Flexicrew after Sigma failed to come to an agreement with easyjet.

[EK4457]

Thanks GBB, you are correct.

ed_boy,

Are these the ATP fools that are currently flying for easyJet then?

No. They are the ones that, just a few weeks ago, paid 8 grand for an MCC which they don't need in order to enter a hold pool as the lowest priority for an absoulte minimum of 2 years.

This was what they were told at selection. And they still did it. They are fools. IMO.

My facts are very straight and from good source thankyou.

Having a little butchers at your posts, I think you are getting a little confused with the CTC ATP scheme (which I was refering to) and the buy-a-job ATP outfit who you seem so fond of. You are miles off track.

If you paid to fly passenger flights and ended up with a temporary job then I hope it worked out for you. I've heard the real pilots won't even talk to you?

You are clearly a cheque book pilot with a chip on your shoulder.

Chill.

[SW1]

Are we talking about simulator experience here- because yes they did take on 12, already type rated and line trained by Easyjet, cadets.

Not sure about the CTC guys let go last year.


Just realised EK beat me too it...

[Eddie Hitler]

SW1,

Regarding the CTC pilots let go by easyJet at the end of last summer, 9 of them have returned for another 6 months this summer under CTC's Flexicrew T&C's.

[pilotguy08]

Are you allowed to get a job while you're in the holding pool?

[Zippy Monster]

I have my belief and you have yours and thats what we're all going on. 3 years ago did you ever imagine the economy would be the way it is today?No, in fact around 3 years ago I was gearing myself up for the CTC scheme, having seen all the lovely PR and heard about the big shortage of pilots, it seemed like a dream ticket to a job. The difference now is I've spent over a year flying the Airbus and, despite me already having had a reasonable knowledge of the industry before I ever started out, being on the right side of the flight deck door has taught me a lot more about the whole situation than I could have hoped to know, and has helped to reinforce the important point that much of what eminates from the FTO PR departments is garbage. Particularly when it comes to saying that X airline will need Y pilots in year Z. Some airlines don't even know what their requirements will be a couple of months ahead, never mind two or three years.

Better that there's people out there determined to still persue[sic] their desires than not.The problem is that in many cases that desire is attempted to be pursued by taking out a five-figure secured loan against someone's property in the middle of the worst recession for years and possibly decades. I can't agree that this shows particularly sound judgement. But we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Just to clear up a few apparent misconceptions about this ATP business. CTC Wings ATP, the bit of the course where you join at the AQC (intermediate) stage and then enter the hold pool, reopened this year. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has been taken from that pool this year - there might have been one or two still hanging on from a while ago who got forwarded to easyJet under FlexiCrew terms in early 2009, I don't know, but if there were then it's very few - the intake was predominantly cadets. It is absolutely true that some of the Airline Training Partnership ATP (completely different, nothing to do with CTC) 'cadets', who made the required standard, were invited back to work on summer contracts again this year, having signed up to the FlexiCrew scheme. But it would appear that the reference to "ATP fools" from a poster above refers to the former group, i.e. those choosing to apply to the CTC Wings ATP scheme to join a holding pool lower in priority than a big load of cadets ahead of them.

One further possible misconception... Wings and FlexiCrew are two separate entities. There are the guys who are doing their 6 months on £1k/month as the final part of the Wings Cadets course, and then there are last year's cadets/ex-ATP(non-CTC) etc. who are working on FlexiCrew terms.

Are you allowed to get a job while you're in the holding pool?Yes.

[pilotguy08]

Do many people get jobs then while they're in the holding pool? (And i'm talking about other jobs which are not CTC related and not as a pilot)

[Zippy Monster]

Yes it's quite normal to do so - in fact, unless you fancy the prospect of sitting round on your backside doing nothing for months waiting for your type rating date after AQC, then it's a good idea to get something lined up nearer the time. The vast majority, certainly in more recent times when airline demand has dictated a big wait between end of AQC and start of type rating, have taken on non-aviation jobs to keep the pocket money rolling in.

[bigjarv]

Well this sounds like mostly sense to me! Been down the pub and had a few but really there seems to be sense in this. Now is not the time to be racking up huge debts. Been down the pub and looking at pprune?!?!?!?! What am I doing??? Get a life Jarv!!! Night... Hic!

[ctcpilot2b]

Hi people, i am new to this thread although i have been monitoring it for a long time now. I went to the last ctc open day and would like to summarise my thoughts.CTC seem like a very professional organisation, i doubt they would want to give themselves a bad reputation for lying to their future cadets.I think it is great news that BA are going to need 400 pilots soon, and were in the best position for when that happens.The fact that by the time we complete our training there will be a huge pilot shortage is even better, airlines will be screaming out for low houred pilots like us.If anything there will not be enough, and ctc cadets will be at the top of the pile. have took out a huge loan to cover my training, but i think this is ok as ctc have assured me that things should be much better by the time i finish my training.I just think the likes of the 'BEAK' are jealous that they have to sit around for another 18 months only to find that us new pilots will take the jobs at the other end,having not had to wait at all.The beak, u spend so much time talking about how it will affect family life, all the loans, temp contracts and uncertainty, i am suprised your family even get a look in now the amount of time u must be glued to this site waiting to shoot people down.while others (DJ fingers, WWW ect) offer sound advice, u seem like a bitter young man!

Better be off, have a flight, say hi to the tesco staff for me beak . .

[GBB]

ctcoilot2be,

You better keep on monitoring ONLY :ugh: :yuk:

[hollingworthp]

Troll :ok:

[TheBeak]

A troll of the highest order, look at the really 'cool' screen name I might change mine to CTC4eva or RYR4eva. Go and enjoy your flight ctcpilot2b. Does the 2b refer to the streaming you are in? 1 being best and 2 being worst, 'a' being slightly better and 'b' being useless but rich so we will keep taking the money? Or is it text talk?

As for Tescos, they are turning over a billion a day and netting several billion a year in profit. What BA? A £400 million loss. Over a million a day lost. Pride comes before a fall and this is the instance where that applies. You aren't a pilot and you aren't at CTC but you very funnily have created a textbook example of one, and, the market the likes of CTC aspire to. If you did but realise it you have made CTC look silly and if you have done that that was a bad idea. If you don't go there then what on Earth for? Attention seeking? Little mentalist.

If CTC did make those claims, well, jolly good. I look forward to it happening. As I have said, I use this thread as a measuring stick of the market amongst other things and that sounds like great news - I might have to start up a new thread entitled - 'CTC say there is a pilot shortage looming and that BA will need 400 pilots in a year and a half, Yessss.'

[Big Trevor]

The Worlds Favorite has a pilot surplus and it is hard to find out the plan for the next few weeks/months let alone the next few years. Claiming we will need 400 is complete rot. Anyone going in to flying training on the basis of that is a complete buffoon... but hey ho, crack on!

[ctcpilot2b]

I really do hope you dont check pprune at 5:30 am - you have got it bad! Oh i am at ctc by the way, so its evening here

[Bambe]

Well I can't blame CTC for telling such nonsense, Oxford does the same with a nice banner on its web site saying how surprised we would be by the answer to the fatal question "Is now a good time for training?"...

They need people!

If you can afford it start now and with CTC it will maximize your chance. Otherwise, don't risk your parents house and go modular it will take longer and by the time things should look a bit brighter.

Anyway, let's not think too much there's not a lot we can do, just hope things won't turn too crazy this winter... Finger crossed!

(400 pilots by 2011 for BA:O:O:O:O and all from CTC of course:D:D:D Can't believe they actually said that...)

[Zippy Monster]

I went for a few drinks with a BA pilot last night and he absolutely couldn't believe the 400 pilots in 2011 story, the way things are going in the airline at the moment. It just won't happen. As I said, FTO marketing = mostly garbage.

[air_wolf]

ctcpilot2b is winding you up. hook, line and sinker......

lot of people talking :mad: on this thread. people actually seem annoyed/shocked that flight schools might want to persuade wannabes to start training and shell out £70k. and, god forbid, might actually oversell future employment prospects......!

welcome to the real world people.

[Zippy Monster]

It's not surprising that the FTOs do that, but it just makes it more important to come on places like here and offer the opposing viewpoint. Because when that over-selling employment prospects stretches to people parting with £70k for a course and effectively betting someone's home on those over-sold employment prospects, then it's important people have a balanced view beforehand - not just some fancy FTO PR and a few numbers about pilot recruitment plucked out of the air.

This isn't a game - people don't seem to realise that the numbers on those bank forms have a really serious value and one day they might have to pay it all back. It's so easy to sign everything away when you don't actually see any of the cold, hard cash and you don't have to worry about it for a couple of years.

Also one other thing; TheBeak, if you were sure the guy was a troll, why did you bother writing a three-paragraph reply?! Don't rise to it.

[air_wolf]

if some joker roles up to a flight training school open day, loves what they hear/see and subsequently parts with £70k (with no backup plan, info about what is really going to happen in the future) then, in my book, they deserve everything they get. do people have to be spoonfed everything these days cos they're so clueless??! here's a thought, use your brain and figure things out for yourself. :cool: then you wont have to read the ramblings on this thread......

[Sciolistes]

Zippy,
It's not surprising that the FTOs do that, but it just makes it more important to come on places like here and offer the opposing viewpoint.
I have to disagree old chap. This place is full of plausible BS (well meaning and agenda driven) and shouldn't be given much weight.

On the whole, I think FTO's are fairly restrained, CTC's own FAQs are fairly frank. When I attended Phase 1 they wouldn't be drawn on the likely hood of a job or timing. Most of what is written here about what CTC promised/suggested/said is spun or fabricated for effect. Can you imagine what the business would be like if the people behind those "retrain for a career in IT" telly adverts did pilot training, cadets would be expecting company cars.

[Zippy Monster]

I can only come on here and speak from my own experiences as an ex-CTCer. I have no agenda other than to answer questions and offer a viewpoint as to what it's like being on the Cadet course, and offer my own personal opinion that at the moment, I feel it's a bad time to spend all that money on an integrated course. I say that because:

a) A lot of my colleagues are now in their second year of 6-month summer contracts wondering how they are going to keep paying their loans in the winter months, and indications from some of the airlines involved are that there will be no recruitment / FlexiCrew only for the forseeable future.

b) Some of those that started flying on the line in spring this year actually finished the course in the middle of last year and had a long wait, watching the interest on their loans mount up.

c) The holding pool is filling up fast with new cadets; when next year's recruitment starts, will the airlines be able to soak up all the previous years' six-month lot in addition to those coming in at the bottom now?

It's good to know the company are being restrained in their approach to questions about job placement and timing. Even so, it doesn't alter my opinion, and it is only my opinion, that now is a bad time to fork out all that money on training.

I would be absolutely delighted to eat my own hat if BA really do take on 400 new pilot recruits in 2011. :)

[golfcharlie232]

Anyone going to the Phase 2 / 3 assessment day next wednesday (22 July) ?

[Sciolistes]

Understood Zippy,

Just in case you thought otherwise, my "BS" remark wasn't aimed at you. Anyway, as you pointed out, after a year or so of flying around you get a new perspective on the industry (positive and negative), so I think we're heading to the same picknik area, just by different tracks.

I would be absolutely delighted to eat my own hat if BA really do take on 400 new pilot recruits in 2011
Interesting one this, and good example of the obfuscation on offer in this thread. These quotes cover the "400" issue in chronological order:
Q.What are you hearing from the market in terms of employment, who's hiring, who's looking to begin hiring in the next 2 years etc..?
A. BA we think are looking to begin hiring around April 2011. But not on any major volume.
Q. Employment?
A. BA won't be hiring until 2011, but then they will need 400 pilots
To expand on this a bit...

Charlie Maunder from BA met with CTC cadets last Friday.

He said that BA were not anticipating any hiring until around April 2011. When asked how many pilots they were likely to need, he said something along the lines of: The need could start off as just a trickle of pilots, going up to around 400 pilots a year if/when recruitment gets going.

He did point out a couple of times that the subject of recruitment was more of an 'if' then a 'when' and that they were in a struggle for survival.
See the problem with this thread?

[roboa]

hey,
does anyone know what kind of numbers are in the hold pool at the moment and if airlines have started taking in cadets again yet?

cheers

[sharpclassic]

Sorry Roboa,

Did you actually ask are airlines taking cadets again?

[roboa]

Yeah lol with the thinest sliver of hope! Just wondered if there had been any sort of movement within the industry since I looked last (march-ish)

roboa

[veetwo]

If anything, things have got worse.

[roboa]

How so?

roboa

[sharpclassic]

Roboa,

I'm not sure if you're a wind up, which if so, congratulations, you've got me but have you any idea what's going on in the industry at the moment?!

[Zippy Monster]

Just wondered if there had been any sort of movement within the industry since I looked last (march-ish)

You just posted that without bothering to read anything on this thread from the last four months, or on any other relevant threads?

The answer to your question is emphatically no. In addition, rumours are abound that TCX will be returning some cadets to the hold pool come the end of the summer.

[roboa]

Sharpclassic,

No, hence the reason i posted.

Zippy Monster,

To answer your question, yes I did look. But, there are several pages of complete off-topic posts in this thread making relevant infomration a pain to find sometimes

[Gavin53]

Hey guys,

I've been put through to phase 2 of the process, and of course I'm aware theres a small numeracy test with 15 question and a computer based aptitude test.

However, if you sit the numeracy test first and happen to fail it, do you find this out straight away and get sent packing......or do you also get to sit the computer based aptitude tests and then find out ALL you results at the end of the day in the feedback section.

In other words, can you sit everything throughout the day even if you fail the first test at the start of the day?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Gav.

[TheBeak]

And still people want to sign up!

Gavin, if you are remotely doubting your ability to pass a simple maths test then don't even bother. End of.

In other words, can you sit everything throughout the day even if you fail the first test at the start of the day?


I have no idea but I would say almost certainly no and why would you want to? Practice? Is it a case of one way or another, regardless of what the tests and people tell you, you are GOING to add to the HUGE pool of unemployed CPL/IR holders out there? Yeah why not, it's only you mum and dads home!

Sorry if it seems harsh. It'll be easy stuff like multiply 17 and 23. Subtract 126543 from 64325634 etc. If you can't do it, well, as Darwin said, only the strong survive. Don't resist nature.

[kwb911]

Gavin,
If you have a read on this thread there is a lot of info on the selection day but a brief introduction is as follows:
Note: I completed the selection process over a year ago and I believe its changed since with selection now completed at Dibden as far as I am aware. Also I believe stage 4 has been dropped from info I have read on this thread.
Basically you turn up and get a presentation about CTC before being split into two groups. One group completes the pilapt tests and maths test while the other starts the team building exercise etc. When each group has completed the tests etc you swap over. This will take up to lunchtime and the results are processed during lunch. The group that has passed will have candidates called forward for stage 3 interview and the guys that don’t get through will have a quick exit interview. If you past the interview in the afternoon you used to get called for stage 4, a sim ride at Nursling but I believe this has now stopped.
Hope this helps.

[golfcharlie232]

Gavin53, don't listen to the stupid comment above. Don't even bother read anything that starts with "TheBeak".

If you fail the maths test, yes you do continue. If you happen to fail one the morning tests (maths, pilapt, group exercises), then you can't go to the interview. They will bring you with the results around 1:30p, slipt you into two groups, one will stay, one will leave.

The maths test and the pilapt are part of the same computer-based test.
Contrary to what TheBeak says, it's not that easy. Reason is, you have to complete 15 questions in 15 minutes, and some take more than 1 min to complete (long divisions, cube roots, conversions ...). However, with a little training, it shouldn't be too difficult. Be quick, think fast, and don't take your time.
The pilapt is a lot harder, and for that one I urge you to take your time between two different tests. Be sure to know exactly what to do before you press Start.
Besides, the numerical keyboard is reversed ...

Good luck !

[kwb911]

don't listen to the stupid comment above

My comment or the one above?

[TheBeak]

No kwb911, that was for me, and I am touched that you didn't assume it was me thus implying you didn't think my point was stupid. So, you're on your own golfcharlie232......at least for the moment......:E

Yeah golfcharlie232 is right, the industry is great, the maths is REALLY hard, CTC are placing everyone, they barely have any hold pool as well. There wont be in excess of 200 people by Christmas. The airlines will definately want loads of people next year, there is no risk to securing the debt on your parents home and buying a TR is great idea and you wont ever regret it.


Contrary to what TheBeak says, it's not that easy.

That really depends on whether you wanted to be a pilot from the age of 3 and decided to work towards it all your life, study maths and gain a solid grasp of it OR you did media studies, general studies and art at school and decided 'I don't like working much and I think flying would be like going on holiday all the time so I think I'll do that' at the age of 17-22. I am sorry but there is nothing difficult about the maths, there are simple RULES to apply and there is a definate answer. If you couldn't be bothered to exercise your mind and learn THE RULES (especially at this level) then that says alot about you and your potential as a pilot.


Gavin as I said I was not trying to be rude, just truthful. The maths and the 'selection' is barely a bread crumb relative to the hurdles ahead of you if you choose to embark on training.

Good luck to you Gavin.

[golfcharlie232]

I failed the pilapt, but unlike you I talk about what I know and I shut my mouth on things I don't.
So yeah, about the maths test, it is NOT about applying rules. How can you talk about something you haven't a clue of what it is about ????
You will pass the maths test if you're able to find a quicker way to solve the problems other than directly apply rules. It is all about logic.
However, I do agree it is fairly easy, and I don't think a lot of people fail at this stage of selection.

[GBB]

TheBeak,

Dont even bother trying to explain them how things are in the REAL WORLD. Most of them are just kids... or they just like to act like one.
The wouldnt listen to their parents, so Im sure they wont listen to you.

[TheBeak]

Contrary to what TheBeak says, it's not that easy.

However, I do agree it is fairly easy,

So to conclude the maths test is NOT that easy but IS fairly easy. And you've had it from the horses mouth that KNOWS!

long divisions, cube roots, conversions
it is NOT about applying rules

huh? The fundamentals of rule based maths.

FACT: Maths is about applying rules. That's all there is to it......apart, in a way, from Mathematical proof - that comes down to reasoning. I very much doubt you had 15 proofs!

Cheers GBB, I know. Some people NEED to find out the hard way I suppose.

[golfcharlie232]

Do you know any method to calculate cube roots ? I suppose you don't, and I don't either. The sense of logic (and this is not a "rule") would be to pick one of the 3 possible answers, not the highest nor the smallest one, you multiply it by itself 3 times, if you get the correct number then that's great, if you get something smaller then there's no need to make any more calculations, you just select the highest answer, and vice-versa.
I call it "logic", not "applying rules" ...

[R T Jones]

When I went through selection just over 2 years ago I failed the maths test first time, went away did lots of practise on the stuff I couldn't do and fluked 15 out of 15. It's not that difficult so don't stress about it to much.
As much as I dislike reading TheBeak's comments, a fair amount of it is true, the reality is harsh at the moment. No movement in the hold pool expected until possibly the end of the year. Even then nothing has been announced, at the moment I am counting my lucky stars that my loan is unsecured and that the interest rate has dropped from 8.8% to around 3%. The recession isn't all bad then!

[Gavin53]

This is brilliant! ha!

Such a simple question and no need for any of this faff!
Higher math went well so test should be relatively straightforward, therefore Beak, absolutely no need for you to have gone jumping to your own conclusions on others abilities, no need!!
All I need is more depth into the layout of the day. Nout more in the way of hurdles in the future, I'm aware of them!
Put my mum and dads home at risk, certainly not, so why again jump to your own conclusions?

GBB:
The wouldnt listen to their parentsHow would you know? you don't. piss off.

Some good points above also, thanks.

[Ollie23]

Do you know any method to calculate cube roots ?

Learn the first 10 cube numbers, thats what i did, worked fine. Also learn the times tables inside out that helps with speed. Conversions etc all very easy. This has been discussed on this thread many many times, if people just read through and stopped asking the same questions over and over maybe this thread wouldn't be 170 pages long!

As you probably gathered the maths test should be the least of your worries, if you fancy swapping places with me I'd be happy. As enjoyable as the couse is i'd sooner be out of debt and watching from the sidelines for a few years.

[99jolegg]

Contrary to a self-appointed omniscient further above, the maths can catch you out no matter who you are, what you have done or what you have studied previously. People with engineering / science degrees from a good red-brick uni who have failed the maths test because they didn't do much prep for it as they regarded themselves as having a solid mathematical background! Some basic practice with pen and paper is all that is required to get your brain up to speed with doing mental arithmetic again. It used to be that you could fail the maths test first time and re-do it at a later stage...now they have scrapped phase 4 and combined phases 2 and 3, when else can you re-do the maths, if at all? As for the rest...it's been done to death every time a new post appears on this thread - unfortunately, we (collectively) have to put up with it until he deems it suitable for us to continue our training plans again...

[air_wolf]

GBB & TheBeak

Your patronising comments are starting to annoy people. You are obviously under the impression that your posts are both witty and insightful.

They aren't.

[TTango]

Gavin, if you are remotely doubting your ability to pass a simple maths test then don't even bother. End of.

No need for that whatsoever Beak. Although you often make some blunt but reasonable points, comments like this aren't helpful in the slightest.

[TheBeak]

You are obviously under the impression that your posts are both witty and insightful

Justify that statement with examples please. How is that obvious? I am just giving my opinion.

Your patronising comments are starting to annoy people

Don't assume others opinions.

Your patronising statement could annoy me too, if I had a chip on my shoulder too. Settle down ground wolf.

TTango, to me it was necessary, a little maths test is a drop in the pond relative to what lies ahead. As is the interview, the pilapt and whatever else you may have to do to be JUSTIFIABLY selected.

To be blunt means to be devoid of any disguise or adornment i.e. HONEST. That's exactly what is needed, not sugar coating, lies or being told what you want to hear. I am offering my opinions and advice with the best of intentions.

To summarise Ttango I think it is helpful, it might help put things into perspective.

[jb5000]

Let's cut to the chase.

The REAL selection process.

Can you afford 75k without an unsecured loan?

You can?

Congratulations! When can you start?

[TheBeak]

Exactly, and, how gullible are you?

[TTango]

Yes, as I said, you often offer blunt but reasonable points, which I don't think is a bad thing.

What I disagree with you about is telling someone not to bother going to selection because they are apprehensive about the maths test. It's quite natural for people to be nervous about certain parts of selection depending on their strengths and weaknesses.

Telling people not to bother with selection because of the current state of the industry is a completely different kettle of fish...

[TheBeak]

Ok what I meant was, if you don't feel confident, don't go just yet. I maintain that this level of maths is essential, not difficult and not something to worry about. If you don't think you can do it, don't think about becoming a pilot. Anyone with any kind of long standing desire to be a pilot knows that basic maths is a necessary tool to the trade and has worked at it, despite not being a 'natural' (and I know many). If you have any worry with regards to it, go away and come back when you don't. That might explain why some seem so frivilous about £100K of debt - they don't understand quantitive facts. Failing a maths test, such as this, by a couple of marks is no big deal, it can happen, and I am sure they will let you take it again if everything else is up to the standard. On that basis, no need to worry. I'd think much further ahead than the maths test if I were you (Not you Ttango).

Telling people not to bother with selection because of the current state of the industry is a completely different kettle of fish...

Exactly, if you have a brain and listen to sound advice form most on this site then leave it all together for the moment - not forever, but certainly for the next couple of years.

[Zippy Monster]

How would you know? you don't. piss off.

Settle down ground wolf.

Your patronising comments are starting to annoy people.

Most of them are just kids... or they just like to act like one.

"Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!"...

If I may offer my own view on the maths test - don't worry about it. If you have any amount of mathematical nous about you, it won't be too much of a problem. It's pretty basic GCSE / early AS-level standard stuff. By all means do a bit of practise beforehand and prepare yourself well, but don't spend the entire week beforehand on it - it's not that hard. In my opinion it's the easiest bit of the entire process.

I suspect jb5000 may well have hit the nail on the head with regard to selection at the moment, and not just at this FTO but at all of them. In the past, CTC could pick the cream of the crop at the interview process because the funding was so easy to get. I sorted mine out over the phone while in the pub. I got an extension to my repayments while waiting for a type rating by popping into the branch and having a 20-second conversation with the account manager. It just doesn't happen like that any more. I know one guy who has passed CTC selection but is delaying his start while he scrapes together the funding and waits for his family to remortgage some property. Not everyone is going to be in a position to do that, and those that are might not want to, so logic would dictate that to maintain course numbers, the FTOs will have to extend their selection criteria.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You would. Have to be. Certifiable. To start an Integrated course. Now.

Message ends.


WWW

[Bambe]

In the past, CTC could pick the cream of the crop at the interview process because the funding was so easy to get. I sorted mine out over the phone while in the pub. I got an extension to my repayments while waiting for a type rating by popping into the branch and having a 20-second conversation with the account manager. It just doesn't happen like that any more. I know one guy who has passed CTC selection but is delaying his start while he scrapes together the funding and waits for his family to remortgage some property. Not everyone is going to be in a position to do that, and those that are might not want to, so logic would dictate that to maintain course numbers, the FTOs will have to extend their selection criteria.

I definitly agree wit that!

[jb5000]

Listen to WWW's words ladies and gentlemen.

There are 250+ cadets now looking for employment, the "employment" that they are being offered is on a flexicrew contract.

250 cadets would be enough FOs for an airline of 35 aircraft.

That's more than Monarch.

If you start now, in 2 years time there will be another 200+ cadets having come through the course ahead of you.

That would be enough FOs for an airline of 64 aircraft.

That's enough to crew Thomson Airways, the merged airline of Thomsonfly and First Choice.

Certifiable doesn't quite cover it.

[Gavin53]

Alright, enough!

Beak, I know full well about the climate and the state of the aviation industry and notice that I didn't even ask about this in my very short and direct question, so I don't give two sh!ts about what you think about it. Just because your getting nowhere with your ratings and quals doesn't mean someone else on this forum won't try. All your crap about others abilities when you don't even know them, take a hike! Got a degree in civil engineering & a ppl, so your input on my or anyones abilities is a pile of horse, keep it to yourself.
All that was asked for was a more in depth look at a specific part of the day, nout more! Your big mouth and unnecessary stupidity and attitude on the last page has blown the last two pages of this thread well out of proportion!:D

I'll give you some advice since you've given more than what was asked! Think about what you've typed and then think about it again. It's highly likely that most of what you were going to type initially will have been disposed of, given it was utter bollocks and unnecessary.

Thats it, I'm done here.
(Cue your childish comeback no doubt. I won't waste my time reading it. Moving on). :cool:

[27/09]

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

P.S. This statement is not directed at any poster in particular, just a reflection on many of the posts in this thread.

[TheBeak]

Just because your getting nowhere with your ratings and quals doesn't mean someone else on this forum won't try.

Charming! I am guessing you mean you are not your.:8

Go and do the training Gav, we need people like you to maintain a grain of movement in the economy.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.


Exactly.

[one post only!]

Over the next 3 years EZY are projecting to increase the fleet by 26 aircraft (to end of sept 2012). Not sure how many crews we have per aircraft but I think its about 4? (I have heard figures ranging from 3.5 to 7!!). WWW probably knows so hopefully he can correct me.

FO's will hopefully move into the LHS as we grow. If those Capt.'s go across full time (the very last batch of skippers are doing 6 months in the LHS then moving back to the RHS) then that means we need about 208 new FO's during the busy season in 2012 compared to this summer.

Add in a few retirements creating room for a few FO's to upgrade and a few leavers (medical, other airlines).

Not sure how accurate jb5000's figures are but using my fag packet very rough calculation it could take a while to empty the hold pool!! At least it will be emptying though I guess!

If you start now with CTC plan to work for a few years after graduation before getting a fixed term contract and you won't be upset and out of pocket. Anything else is a bonus.

Add up all the potential future recruitment and you will be very very hard pushed to get all the CTC cadets jobs in the UK. EZY have historically been by far the biggest recruiter from CTC. Other airlines have only taken a trickle of guys (by comparison) even during the good times.

Go in with your eyes open and a strong bank balance!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As discussed elsewhere there are a *lot* of available pilots on the market and nobody says easyJet needs more British cadets who don't speak Spanish or Italian (countries where easyJet is likely to expand) and only speak English (the UK market is likely to contract).

Look at the situation in Spain regards pilots already unemployed:


LTE, bankrupt, approx 110 pilots airbus

Girjet, bankrupt, approx 85 pilots airbus, boeing, fokker 100

Futura, bankrupt, approx 400 pilots, boeing

Gadair, ???, approx 16 pilots, boeing

Hola, ???, 75% laid off, boeing

LagunAir, bankrupt, 35 pilots, embraer

Air Comet, on the verge, 400 plus pilots, airbus, legacy

Spanair, talking about further layoffs, airbus, mc donnell douglas

Air Nostrum, lay offs, 180 approx, canadair, fokker, atr



CTC cadets *may* be preferable over locally recruited experienced pilots. I really wouldn't know. But I'm guessing the experienced and sometimes type rated locals would crawl over broken glass to get a job with the likes of Ryanair and easyJet at their Spanish bases. They might be happy to undercut cadets is that's even unhumanly possible. :(

Unchartered waters.

Taking on £75,000 of time expiring training debt is a pure gamble at this time.


WWW

[disco87]

All training is a bit of a gamble I would have thought, albeit sometimes it is a bigger gamble than other times. There could be some terrible world development at any point during your training.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sept 11th being an excellent example.

Think of pilot training as a game of Russian Roulette. The usual game has a gun with only has 1 bullet and 5 empty chambers.

Starting an Integrated course now or in the near future is like playing with 5 bullets and 1 empty chamber. Its still just a gamble but...


WWW

[disco87]

But what is the near future?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The pub for me, don't know about you.......

[v6g]

Over the next 3 years EZY are projecting to increase the fleet by 26 aircraft (to end of sept 2012)

What oil price are they assuming in their estimates for growth?

[BigNumber]

Surley the best strategy is to get rated and buy a minimum of 500hrs Line Training.

Without this how will anyone compete with the folks already in the game. All that remains is a impressive 'Blue Beer Mat' of a licence.

The truth is it would appear that 500hrs on type will allow an application to most positions. Sad though it is, the wannabes hand is forced.
I do not believe that there remains any employment stigma associated with paying for these initial 500 hours. These schemes have become the norm, why else would EZY, BMI etc be willing to engage with them?

Pay up and get some hours, or write off your losses and dream no more!

[Zippy Monster]

Please tell me that last post is a wind up? I had an early 4 sectors today and my sense of humour might not be quite in gear.

The truth is it would appear that 500hrs on type will allow an application to most positions.

It will allow an application if you have about 1500hrs total time as well, which will almost certainly not be the case if you buy these 500hrs having just completed a 250hr fATPL course.

Do NOT pay for line training. Please.

[BigNumber]

So; you have secured a job then Zippy. Indeed, you have been paid to operate 4 sectors today.

How on earth are any of these FATPL's going to get into the same position as you then? Have you seen loads of job openings for unrated low hour drivers in 'Flight'?

Or perhaps you're of the opinion that they should just be left high and dry with useless licences and PA28 ratings! Maybe they should all go and become part time instructors?

There are no jobs unless you are rated and 500hrs on type so 'splashing the cash' is here to stay. Maybe then they can get up and do a 4 sector early and get paid one day too!

I don't like the 'pay to fly' schemes but accept that we were lucky compared with our friends that are looking for work with a FATPL.

[Zippy Monster]

A few points then...

- Where on earth is someone up to their eyeballs in debt, most of it nowadays secured, from an integrated course going to get the money to then go and buy 500 hours of line training?

- I can tell you from recent past experience of my own and of others, that 500 hours on a jet making around 750-800hrs total time, as would be the case with many fresh fATPL holders out of expensive courses, is absolutely no use whatsoever. You don't fill the criteria for most jobs, agencies will simply tell you to go away, and the very few for which you do meet the requirements will be so inundated with spontaneous applications that they won't even bother to acknowledge receipt.

- So, you've bought 500 hours on a jet and you still don't have a job. Then what? Another 500? Where does it end? And where will it end for the greedy organisations plying their trade in this part of the industry?

- These schemes have become the normNo they haven't - yet. There are a few isolated cases, and EZY have stopped dealing with the organisation that conducted this sort of training last year. But they will become the norm if people succumb to your way of thinking. As I asked - where does it end?

- Have you seen loads of job openings for unrated low hour drivers in 'Flight'?Have you seen ANY job openings for rated low-hour 'drivers' ANYWHERE?

- What does this have to do with the CTC scheme?

[27/09]

Big Number and others.

So, you've bought 500 hours on a jet and you still don't have a job. Then what? Another 500? Where does it end? And where will it end for the greedy organisations plying their trade in this part of the industry?


Tell us where does it end. It's almost like the guy at the casino, things haven't gone well for him, but his luck must change soon, he's bet his last dollar plus any his family has and is going "double or quits" but will that be the end if he doesn't win this time?

You are suggesting 500 hours of self funded line training but it won't end there. Remember this whole process started with just paying for a type rating.

If we all sat down and took a look at what the totals costs were, of what some are suggesting is the only way into a job, and worked out how long it was before there was any real rate of return there might be a bit of reality.

By total costs I mean the initial costs through to a CPL and Instrument rating (or that funny thing you guys call an fATPL) plus a type rating, then any self funded line training, any other costs of gaining employment, the costs of supporting yourself/family for this time and the opportunity cost or interest on the money spent.

If you want to fly that much it would be cheaper (and better for everyone) for you to get another job and do a PPL and pay for your flying that way.

Forgive my butting in here, but I see plenty of people from the UK over here doing their training at the moment and I wonder/despair where they are going to get a job.

[sharpclassic]

Food for thought...

BBC NEWS | Programmes | World News America | Mobile homes for pilots (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8186753.stm)

[veetwo]

Zippy Monster has hit the nail on the head. Where does it end? You pay for a £70,000 integrated course. You then pay for a £25,000 type rating. You then pay for 500 hours line training (which incidentally, despite whatever you may be told or might think, is worth diddly squat at the moment). Then you do what? Pay for 500 more? How long before there is a scheme offering "1500 hours" to unfreeze your ATPL? I suspect not long.

After that, you are given a "cadet" salary and a "flexi" contract whereby you are kicked out for 6 months over winter and left to your own devices. And that's if you are one of the lucky ones!

People wail "well what are we supposed to do?". I'm afraid the answer to that is - something else. At least for the time being until things improve. Of course, if you have money to burn then no one, least of all an anonymous poster on pprune, is going to convince you otherwise. Good luck to you. Personally I think you'd have to be barking mad.

People getting themselves in to unmanageable amounts of debt is how the economy got in to to such a mess. Quite how people are still managing to get these huge flight training loans approved is beyond me.

V2

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I've been feeling this way for some considerable time now.

As an economist I admire how the free market keeps discovering how cheaply it can buy airline pilots. As a pilot I hate the exact same thing. As a human being I fear for those people who are miss-calculating the cost/benefit of pilot training - they stand to lose money, time, ambition, relationships and sanity.

The sidelines is the place to be.


WWW

[v6g]

As a human being I fear for those people who are miss-calculating

- oh I don't know ... I'm starting to quite enjoy it actually!

Sure, to begin with I felt compassion and sympathy for my fellow man, but now I'm finding a deep sense of entertainment and amusement at watching so many young things going against the reams of sound advice and committing financial suicide that will scar them for the rest of their adult lives.

I don't normally get pleasure out of seeing other people's pain or misery, but it's a bit like watching sheep jumping over a cliff - you feel natural sorrow at first but after a while you begin to quite enjoy watching the satisfying splat at the bottom.

[Raptorstick]

but it's a bit like watching sheep jumping over a cliff - you feel natural sorrow at first but after a while you begin to quite enjoy watching the satisfying splat at the bottom.To a degree.....disturbing:yuk: and distressing.

Never the less I would agree.

[BigNumber]

It remains the case that 'the majority' of folks following a 500hrs 'Line Training' package have secured work.

This work will not be supremely well paid, or UK based, but will allow the further all important experience to be built.

When was the last time you spotted a post from someone that had completed a 500hr Line Training Package 'crying' that they can't get a gig? No? I haven't either!

[Zippy Monster]

It remains the case that 'the majority' of folks following a 500hrs 'Line Training' package have secured work.

Have they? Where? Or are you just trying to back up your earlier claims with unsubstantiated nonsense?

When was the last time you spotted a post from someone that had completed a 500hr Line Training Package 'crying' that they can't get a gig?

Irrelevant - it doesn't prove anything either way. They may just choose not to go on the internet and vent their spleen.

You still haven't answered my earlier points by the way.

[BigNumber]

Hi Zippy,

Sorry for the apparent tardiness in replying to last weeks questions, ( been away for 4 days to the Sim doing my OPC).

To answer / qualify some of my earlier points and your questions.

1. Funding; everyone is different. The 'bank of Mum and Dad' would seem the ubiquitous favorite. It might be argued that a 'fresh blue book' is unemployable so one either writes off their losses or invests a little more to become 'employable'. Further, I believe that a FATPL has a 'shelf life' as newly aquired flying skills are highly perishable, so don't delay unduly! Clearly 500 hours intensive experience on type will have a better 'shelf life' than the TR alone.

2. Who have I met that these 'schemes' have worked out for? Well, the two tenants that I have rented a property out to. The Chap (ex ATP) I met last week in GVA that has now secured a RHS on LR 60 for Vista Jet. 3 Guy's I met in GMNN working for RAM ( Dutch ex Eagle Jet ).

3. I believe it is 'telling', as a thermometer of these schemes, that there are no 'crying' posts from anyone that has bought 500hrs experience on type. Where are all these folks that have been duped?

4. What has this to do with CTC? Well, my fundamental point is that in the new market experience on type is a must. Any scheme, (irrespective of its architecture), that gets a candidate CAT experience on type is the way ahead! Whether you use CTC, ATP, EJ is down to choice, but 500hours on type is the requisite 'gate' to be achieved. Although I note the chap at Vista did well to get a LR 60 type rating ( I'm very jealous ).

Finally, I am no fan of these schemes or the market forces that have given rise to these 'dark' practices. That said, it would seem that it can work out for some people. To this end, I think it is important that these wannabe threads receive a balanced view.

[The Mixmaster]

Just to give "balance" i know two chaps who have recently been through the ATP scheme. Firstly they only offer 150 hours on the line, NOT 500 as you're suggesting BN.

Secondly they have not secured further employment either through ATP or off their own back.

[BigNumber]

Hi Mixmaster,

I'm sorry to hear that these guy's have not yet secured work.

To be clear, I am of the opinion a minimum of 500hrs Line Training is required in todays market.

I thought ATP now offered this programme. Perhaps I was mistaken; sorry.

BN

[Ollie23]

Perhaps I was mistaken; sorry.

You're mistaken on many things you write in these forums. I gave up taking notice of you long ago as I suspect many others did.

[BigNumber]

Ha Ha ; thanks for the vote of confidence!!! :}

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I am of the opinion a minimum of 500hrs Line Training is required in todays market.


That's a lot of line training!

[BigNumber]

If it is being purchased then I would struggle to call it anything else :).

Line Flying would 'classically' attract some remuneration.

Anyway, I survived the sim for another 6 months so off to the pub.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Good man, always a relief. Enjoy:ok:

[hmmmplanes]

How depressing, I am stuck......I am doing ok in the design industry but know I was meant for a different line of work. Airline?? I really don’t know, I always thought I would be a pilot but for no particular reason except I have always been interested in flying (never done anything about it), the lifestyle would suit me fine and 'how could I not like it' kind of optimism. BUT I am one of those people who do not have a clue till I do it!!! I have been accepted to CTC but I have always been dubious about them. It seams too good to be true and possibly it is (especially after reading this forum). the main reason for being dubious was because I could find not a bad word about the company either through word of mouth or any internet search (clever Google editing by CTC I expect) until I found this refreshing forum in all its glory!! And I like to hear the other side.
I have certainly decided to hold fire (you can hold your position as I found out, contrary to what I have read on here), certainly until the ominous holding pool reduces to a manageable size and there is a little more than just a dim glimmer at the end of the tunnel. The other slightly selfish reason being, i have a few contacts who are on the cadet scheme now and i want a non glorified version of 'how its going'.

There was meant to be a point in here somewhere which is, at least i have a half decent job, but still if i am going to be a pilot then why wait, inflation is still roughly level with interest so its a great time for loans. What will i gain, from waiting that actually counts when or if i get there? Maybe less time in a holding pool. but all i will be doing then is working like i am now. I don’t know, i doubt the whole airline industry is going to cave in on its self, so there must be a dim light at least.

A few questions - are we going to have to compete with cheaper pilots from Asia, as my dad insists?

Do you actually have a passion for flying to enjoy the job? (this is not a stupid question have no particular passion for any job, and i don’t know if i have a passion for a job i have never done. i have flown one plane and one sim (for phase 4) and i loved it. but that’s not the job!!!!)


Feedback no matter how harsh and honest, much appreciated from all you lovely people on the pprune forum.

[R T Jones]

hmmmplanes, I think your plan to stay put is a wise one at this moment. From sitting in the ominous CTC hold pool you mention things are not looking there best at the moment. From my own thoughts and what I've read, aim to finish 2012 - 2013, in the winter time, that is when most of the recruitment is likely to take place. Winter 2012 it is then.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Please, where has this idea that 500hrs on type opens doors comes from?

It is totally and utterly deluded in today's market. If you're extremely lucky and willing to accept some pretty dodgy terms in some pretty dodgy places you might be lucky enough to get a job in some crap place. And I do mean you would be lucky.

It will stand you in good stead if you manage to keep current until things do pick up in a few years, but for now its pretty tough.

[one post only!]

Following a thread about the EZY hold pool I was wondering actually what cadets coming through CTC now would prefer. I haven't posted this on the CTC internal forum as I wasn't sure if people would dare reply incase they rock the boat.

But what do you think the cadets coming through now to EZY would prefer? A few guys to get full-time contracts or several to get experience and have to come back over a couple of years on a contract?

What is better for you all? A longer wait with no flying at all for a full-time position or a short wait for a couple of years of summer only contracts?

I pose this question ignoring the dangers of trend setting and potentially winding up with contract summer FO's for many years to come. Imagine that things were to pick up in a couple of years and hiring were to return to normal.

A lot getting a little, or a few getting a lot!?!?!

[oates76]

Good question given our current circumstance. Personally, I'd prefer a few get a lot. I'd like to know that when I do finally get a place, it will be permanent, and not this 6 months then see ya stuff :yuk:. If I have to wait two years, so be it, I can go after work where I am currently, and look forward to a call to the right seat at some point in the not too distant future. However, I think if I resided permanently in the UK, my tune might be a bit different.
Interested to hear what others think

[JASON121]

hi guys and girls, thought i should offer some of you aspiring pilots some insight and advice to the journey of becoming a commercial pilot. I started my cadet programme what must be 2 years ago, god time has flown by, and have now jumped over my last hurdle :ok: officially a qualified commercial pilot....but its not all happy days, but i guess thats just reality. well recession has sure had a detremental effect to the aviation injustry, right now at an educated guess well over 50% of the qualified pilots are unemployed, me being one of many.

Fair enough, many people are unemployed in the UK at the moment due to the economic downturn, but the 100k debt im in isnt funny business! Im working 5 days a week, 9 to 5 a technician, as well as a part time job in a bar doing nightshifts just to be able to pay the bank from reposessing my parents house. I have also had to resort to moving back in with the parents as I cannot afford to pay the rent and am contemplating on selling my beloved vw golf. when i first joined CTC my initial reaction to the debt was, no worries once im earning as a pilot ill pay it off, take it each day as it comes.....HOW WRONG WAS I!!

CTC does not guarantee employment, and i cannot blame them for recession now can i?! it was my own risk, a chance i wanted to take to do something i loved, but life is not a dream and in reality there are things called "pay back the monthly installments of your loan or your family will live on the streets" and there's the other option "share a cell with a man who calls himself betty and likes to look at you while you're sleeping" so remember that whether you secure employment as a pilot or not, the loans have to be repaid...at 1k per month! the bank doesnt care you're not working! so my golden advice is if you are really wanting to persue a career as a pilot, learn how to count cards and win yourself around 80k from the casino, or if you have a rich father...start doing his ironing for him and make sure u wash his porsche every sunday. but not all of us can count cards or come from wealthy backgrounds rite?

so my strong advice (i sure wish someone had told me before I got myself in such a financial pickle) is to wait for the economy to come out of this slump, which can be anything from three to four years so ive been told by a friend of mine who is a financial advisor, and to apply then. that way once you graduate the economy will have had two years to really get itself going and employment will be...well hopefully...plentiful :) look at it this way, although you may become a qualified commercial pilot later, the 100k debt is inevitable, and why not seek employment now and save up say....25k over these three/four years and be able to use that and pay towards the course. that way your bank loan is alot less and believe it or not will save you thousands in interest!! I sure wish I had followed that path! or you could do it my way, end up in an astounishing amount of debt, with little hope of securing employment as a pilot within the next 6 months and no flat, no car and too much pride to take money from my parents and girlfriend!

The number of unemployed pilots at CTC alone is increasing every month, and I cant imagine how the newly graduated pilots feel as they are further down the pecking order i.e good-ish news for me as I should be the next batch to secure employment....so they say!:confused: I seriously do not understand why CTC continue to recruit as that would mean the list of unemployed pilots will be well...endless!!! 16-20 recruited every month yet there are still FAR FAR too many pilots in the holding pool. thats over 200 pilots per year from CTC alone!! dont forget the numerous companies in europe alone that train pilots! god knows how many there are in total! keep in mind that airlines do no purchase 50-100 boeings per year, they make 1 bulk buy and thats them good for the next 5-10 years!

i suppose people who work for CTC do have a family to feed and bills to pay! if only they would think of the consequences and the effects it has on us, the passionate pilots who only ever wanted to do something they love! dont get me wrong i appreciate all the support CTC has provided me and must say it is probably second to none but maybe they could warn people that alot of pilots who graduated are unemployed. if you ask them during your interview, or even check online they state that "since the company was founded to this date, all pilots have secured employment" I guess I should have known these statements were fiction as they also state that their CTC Wings Cadet Programme is a "sponsored route"...:=

anyway i thought id give you guys and girls an insight to the life of a graduated pilot...its not all high and fly! feels more like im trying to pay off loan sharks if im being honest...cant blame anyone but myself! if only someone had given me the advice im offering you guys. if you still want to apply now though, by all means go ahead, just hope to god there is not another 9/11, recession period and that instead of investing in football clubs, people start investing in airlines!!

and for those of you who have just recently joined as its too late to go back...good luck and i wish you all the best. believe me I know what you guys will go through. they always seem to be looking for new staff at the bar where im currently at!

Regards,

Jason

[27/09]

For anyone thinking of funding their training through a loan in the present climate take a look at Jasons post #1534 here http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/144926-ctc-wings-scheme-thread-77.html#post5143345

[fly123fly]

Hi Everyone,

I have noticed that on the CTC website they have added that there will possibly be a change in the training timetable in the future. Does anyone know any more details?

Thanks :)

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Jason 121, very glad you posted that, it's important to the new guys and girls that are thinking about taking a commitment on such as this, to actually see what the outcome could be. Best of luck with it all and I hope that you can secure a permanent contract as soon as possible.

As a matter of interest how are CTC helping you to stay current throughout this period?

WBV

[THRILLSEEKER]

Simple answer .. they won't


A guy finished with CTC last year, sat in the pool for over a year whilst hanging round for CTC. Managed to get HIMSELF in to Air Malta but needed his IR renewed so that he could start his Airbus TR... what did CTC say... "Sorry were too busy, you'll have to renew it elswhere at you own expence"

Cheers :mad:

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Unfortunately that's the answer i was expecting.......:rolleyes:

You'd have to be mad to start doing a course like this in this climate, leave it a couple of years at least. It's such a shame, to see and meet people coming through onto the line on temporary contracts with no way to pay off their loans. Anyone thinking about starting now don't, just don't.

WBV

[FlyBoyFryer]

I have to respectfully disagree with some of your comments WBV.

This has always been about calculated risk for us CTC pilots. Sometimes Lady Luck smiles, sometimes she frowns.

I've established a means to continue fiinancing my loans whilst things are quiet and I'd like to think most other people in the hold pool have too.

If all aspiring pilots followed your advice and held off training for at least 2 (a couple you said?) of years, where would the training industry be? We need the constancy and numbers are tapering off anyway from what I can tell (speaking to friends who are instructing etc.). To simply say STOP! is financial suicide to companies never mind the consequent issues it would generate as and when things do pick up.

Valued contributors to this fourm kept reiterating - it's about perserverance, dedication and making the best of what's available. Train slow, train cheap, think carefully, find and sieze whatever opportunities you can et al.

Also, there's nothing unexpected or untoward if someone from within the CTC hold pool finds an opportunity elsewhere of their own accord - good for them, I say. I've never thought of CTC as a creche, instead a working partner who will help me whilst I help myself.

Starting a course with CTC now isn't a bad thing - you just need to plan and prepare properly. They're still a high quality trainer and modernising/keeping abreast of change as best as possible I would say.

Besides, being qualified and keeping oneself current in terms of study and stick and rudder skills on the likes of single engine AC isn't exhorbitantly expensive considering the tens of thousands of £'s we've spent already. Hey, I know that even if (or as) and when I get a job flying commercially, I'll still want to go flying on a recreational basis to keep my hand in with the old puddle jumpers anyway (they're too much fun I think)!

It's the expectancy of some people that they will finish a modular or integrated course... and then simply step into a big shiny jet is what I think causes many of the current issues.

[one post only!]

You can't really recommend starting training to keep the training organisations going!!!! Honorable I am sure but not the best reason for someone to start training! Do what's right for you, not to keep CTC/OAT etc in business.

Even if everyone did stop training now there will still be more than enough pilots in hold pools or unemployed etc to keep the airlines going! To be frank, the less people there are in the wings (pun intended) waiting to join the better the T&C's of those new joiners will be. Just look at flexi-crew. That is here to stay now.

Start now or wait, million dollar question! I agree with you FBF in that starting now may not be a bad thing but plan and prepare PROPERLY.

You are lucky, you can afford to graduate, keep paying your loans, feed yourself, keep a roof over your head and even keep flying for a protracted period!!! Not many people can! For those in your position, start now, what the heck. If you have enough cash to keep going for 2/3 years after graduation before getting a full time contract do it. If you have no ties so you can follow the work and not worry about paying the bills/looking after babies etc then go for it.

A lot of people are not that lucky. Family/life/financial commitments make it difficult. This is where WBV's words should be heeded. If money will be tight after graduation and you can't afford to live on contract work for years then STOP! Wait till things pick up. You might miss the initial upswing and hiring panic but there will always be jobs. Don't rush and bankrupt yourself.

Myself, WBV and others might sound more pessimistic than you but its because we chat to the new guys on the line on the contracts and hear the fears and concerns. When will I be working next, where and for how long?!? Not nice. The latest lot to join EZY are going to be kept on over the winter on flexi work to keep current which is great news. They don't know where they will be based though and could have to move abroad for 6 months and then return to the UK - where and on what contract again they don't know. Better than nothing though!

Do what's right for your own set of circumstances. No-one else can tell you whether to do it or not. Certainly not to help FTO's out anyway! If you can REALLY afford it and have a backup plan(s) then go for it. If not, wait. There will still be jets needing to be flown in a few years.

FBF, enjoy being able to work doing a "normal" job and do some puddle jumping when you can. Catch up with all your family and friends as much as you can now before shift work makes a serious dent in your social life!

See you on the line soon hopefully.

[one post only!]

Will they still use Bristol then or do it all in house with CTC instructors??

[flightless_bird]

Apparently, according to rumours...
According to the ad on page 47 of Flight International, 25-31 August, it may be more than just rumour about CTC doing their groundschool in Nursling near Southampton. Sounds like it could be a good idea I'd say.

[99jolegg]

It's not a rumour, it was confirmed weeks ago in the Head of Wings update. No idea whether Bristol is still being used but the studying is done at Nursling.

[F/O UFO]

Fantastic, I'm in! can anybody tell me how long it takes to get the pack and all the rest of it?

Also, from November ground school will be done in the UK.

[Puritan]

Much in support of what WWW has said in previous pages, I wrote the following 8.5 years ago, and nothing's changed since! "Some words of advice for wannabes at all levels (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/149212-some-words-advice-hopefully-wannabes-all-levels.html#post1572500)" <-- click link

[Mr_Bigglesworth]

Hey everyone,

As many of you are aware the CTC Wings Cadet course structure is due to change within the next couple of months (depending on approval from the CAA). This means the course will start with 23 weeks ATPL ground school studying at Nursling prior to getting down to the practical stuff in Hamilton.

I'm on CP80 starting in Jan where the new structure will almost certainly be in place.

It seems a bit more difficult from the old way, as you can't apply anything you've learned until 6 months after the start of the course. Has anyone else got an opinion on this?

[jb5000]

The ATPL theory is taught in this manner at OAA, so is a proven method. There is nothing particularly 'applicable' about the ATPL studies that can be used during the early PPL/CPL/IR training anyway, in fact I think it is better to understand the theory before getting into the aeroplane.

I'm unsure as to why they have done this, the flying pace was painfully slow as it was and doing some ATPL theory at least gave you something to do in the fog!

The attention paid to the ATPL studies was perhaps not what it should have been, merely relying on the utterly fantastic fortnight at Bristol. Perhaps the CAA have noticed this and want more of a focus on actually covering the material.

On a side note - with every major airline in Europe talking about redundancies and base closures, people in the CP40s still looking for full time employment (CP80 did you say?), and interest rates set to soar. Are you really sure that your business plan is robust enough to even consider starting to train in this environment?!

[sharpclassic]

ATPL study? HA!

Progress tests on Singapore Airlines and and work your b*ll*cks off at Bristol anyone? ;)

[Zippy Monster]

If only... it got to a point where they threatened to stop people leaving NZ unless they had finished all the progress tests first.

It's probably not the worst idea to do it all before going out there - much of my ATPL theory knowledge has come from actually working on the line rather than trying to learn from the Bristol CBT software that has been the norm until now. Doing it all beforehand will make you actually pay attention to the stuff rather than staring into space while hearing your finger go "click... click... click..." on the mouse.

I'd echo jb5000's point though that all it means is you'll have less to do out there in the inevitable gaps in the flying due to weather / scheduling / etc etc. Still, more time to enjoy the Hamilton 'nightlife'... :E

[F/O UFO]

At the moment BBVA are offering 2.25% per annum fixed rate if I remember correctly.

[Zippy Monster]

Great! After 7 years that makes just under £90k to pay back, with disastrous employment prospects and the probable requirement to put someone's property on the line for it as well. Where do I join the queue?! :ugh:

[jb5000]

When you finish the course and don't get a flying job, can't afford the secured loan repayment and are forced to sell your house don't come whinging on here.

Seriously... Anybody who starts the course now must be living in complete denial.

[Mr_Bigglesworth]

It is a bit of a risky business, but it's always been that way.

jb500; Have you ever considered working for an airline based in one of the emerging market countries such as the UAE, Brazil, Mexico? Europe, although desirable, may not be feasible at this moment in time.

With regards to BBVA's interest rate, it's: Libor, 3 months + 2.25%, which totals to about 3.05% at the moment. Pound sterling, Libor, 3 months is currently at 0.8% per annum, the lowest in my lifetime - What a bargain! Although it's likely to be a lot higher than that in a couple of years.

[Rollerboy]

Sorry Mr Bigglesworth but jb5000 is correct in some ways.

Yes there has always been an element of risk when embarking on an Ab Inito course, however there have been better times to start.

Sorry but the idea that you will be able to tap the emerging markets with your 250 hrs and Airbus rating is laughable. You seem to have fallen victim of the Woodward bull. Still at least when you start CP80 you can be safe in the knowledge that you weren't the only one who fell for it.... Hopefully these emerging markets they are targeting have enough room for the 'hold pools' sorry 'hold oceans' that will exist when you finish.

just telling it as I see it sorry.

Roller

[akindofmagic]

jb500; Have you ever considered working for an airline based in one of the emerging market countries such as the UAE, Brazil, Mexico? Europe, although desirable, may not be feasible at this moment in time.

How jaw droppingly arrogant for someone from CP80, who hasn't even started the course yet, to be dishing out the advice to someone who is currently in permanent employment with a major airline in Europe.

Sandpit. Check. Head. Check.

[one post only!]

Wow, ingenious. I am sure none of the many, recently made redundant, experienced pilots have considered trying to get a job out in those places let alone all the newly qualified pilots also. Talk about missing an opportunity.

There was me thinking a lot of them weren't really recruiting in large numbers anyway as they face their own problems. Obviously not.

Good job you mentioned that as no-one else will have thought of that.

[Mr_Bigglesworth]

LOL! Calm down dears.

How long did it take you guys to get jobs after training?

There seems to be a lot of people on here saying that starting training now is a bad idea. Forgive me, but are we not in an economic trough at the moment? We are going to be embarking on a journey towards a peak sooner rather than later. No-one can know what state the industry is going to be in 2 years, but it's got to be better than the present quagmire.

I do feel for all the budding first officers waiting in the holding pit though.
When the airlines start actively recruiting again, freshly graduated CTC Wingers will have the upper hand won't they?

[Tiger_ Moth]

Mr. Bigglesworth,

Quote: "jb500; Have you ever considered working for an airline based in one of the emerging market countries such as the UAE, Brazil, Mexico? Europe, although desirable, may not be feasible at this moment in time."

With comments like that I really don't know if I feel angry at you or sorry for you. There's just so much wrong/ incorrect about that statement I don't know where to start.

Do you really think the hordes of FO's facing imminent bankruptcy wouldn't jump at the prospect of a permanent contract anywhere?

Feel free to PM if you want some genuine advice.

[TheBeak]

Mr_Bigglesworth, you are going to find out the hard way if you aren't careful.

If CTC don't magic something miraculous up by April 2010 then I'd strongly question their future. I wouldn't invest in them until they have delivered something to what must be nearing 200 customers that are waiting for their 'promises' to become reality.

Think long and hard before you commit to this.

Don't believe the hype.

[TFlexMax80]

*Pulls out pin, throws grenade in*

Interesting reading on the general section forum of the BALPA website at the moment, regarding the Wings scheme in general and flexicrew in particular. Particularly interesting is the allegation that CTC have paid some cadets' bonds off to avoid the negative publicity of the aforementioned cadets declaring bankruptcy. Smoke, fire? You decide.

Don't shoot the messenger....

[99jolegg]

Around 70-90 I think. It'll probably go up to 150 and hover around there for a while before coming back down but nobody knows....

[davedek]

"Quote: Interesting reading on the general section forum of the BALPA website at the moment, regarding the Wings scheme in general and flexicrew in particular. Particularly interesting is the allegation that CTC have paid some cadets' bonds off to avoid the negative publicity of the aforementioned cadets declaring bankruptcy. Smoke, fire? You decide. "

TFlexMax80 - I'm certainly not shooting the messenger, and what you have just said is the absolute first instance I have heard of anything like that happening. The first thought that comes to my mind: CTC 'paying off cadet's bonds', erm, sounds like a fantastically great thing to do for those cadets! Surely that can only be GOOD?

Just a little confused as to why it would be an 'allegation', we all know there are a fair number of qualified cadets without jobs, wouldn't it be GREAT for them if CTC actually saved them from bankruptcy and helped them out financially?

Like I said, never heard of this happening myself, and I find it difficult to believe. But cadets in troube NOT going bankrupt? Would be great (if true) in my opinion.

[jb5000]

I would have thought it was more of a 'keep quiet' bung rather than a generous 'sorry we couldn't get you a job old chap, what do you say we repay your loan and we call it even?'.

If word got out that some had successfully declared themselves bankrupt, then that might well start a chain of cadets shedding the mill stone from their necks.

That, of course, could very well spell the beginning of the end for CTC's ability to train the cadets with the best ability over those with the largest chequebook. Banks become unwilling to lend for flight training, CTC's reputation dies a painfully slow death whilst everyone in the industry becomes embittered by their flexible schemes ruining the T+Cs for the whole profession.

Oh wait... That's already happening.

[Zippy Monster]

Bigglesworth, in the nicest possible way it seems you've been taken in big style by the CTC PR machine. No shame in that - they are good at it. But you would be well advised to listen to what people are telling you. Most of the respondents to your posts are ex-CTC - I know at least four of them are, I can't speak for the rest but I suspect they are. CTC might not tell you certain bits and pieces that those of us actually employed in the airlines now would consider to actually be jolly important.

jb500; Have you ever considered working for an airline based in one of the emerging market countries such as the UAE, Brazil, Mexico? Europe, although desirable, may not be feasible at this moment in time.

Could I just add myself to the list of those above who think this is possibly one of the most naive statements I have ever come across on PPrune; and furthermore, shows a distinct lack of understanding of the industry at which you're about to throw a massive amount of money. Do you know how many out of work pilots there are? How many of them are low-houred, with a 737/320 rating? Who have sent a CV to every operator, big and small, all over the world in search of a job with not so much as a reply forthcoming from many of them? An fATPL and rating with no hours on type is about as effective in today's job market as a fart in a hurricane.

In addition, most non-English-speaking countries' airlines require you to speak their language fluently. Could you imagine Air France giving a job to a non-French speaker, or Lufthansa to a non-German speaker? The same goes for airlines in many of the French/Spanish speaking countries around the world (although granted maybe not the Middle East.) I know many of the cadets I trained with spoke nothing other than English. You'll note I've not assumed that you don't, but it's something to consider. You can take it from me, first hand, that it is no fun having to live miles away from your family, missus and friends in a country where you barely speak a word of the language (although watching the captain's expression while trying to make your rehearsed PA in broken French and German is amusing.)

What a bargain! Although it's likely to be a lot higher than that in a couple of years

It might be a bargain, but when the bank come calling for their money, trust me it won't feel any different whether the amount they're after is £85k or £90k.

No-one can know what state the industry is going to be in 2 years, but it's got to be better than the present quagmire.

Has it? What evidence have you got for that? Those of us dropped by easyJet at the end of last summer thought similar things, and what's happened since then? easyJet closing a base, threatening redundancies; TCX have just dropped this season's intake of cadets; BA have said they won't hire until at least 2011; even Ryanair are slowing their recruitment down at the moment. At the moment, easyJet show no indication of any permanent recruitment. What possible signs are there that things will be better in two years, apart from maybe a bit of BA recruitment? (Ignore anything you have heard about 400 NEW pilots.)

When the airlines start actively recruiting again, freshly graduated CTC Wingers will have the upper hand won't they?

Who knows? The fairest way would be to employ those who graduated earliest and have been waiting in the pool longest - why should the fresh graduates jump the queue? But you could be right - the airlines might well like to get their free six months out of you.

How long did it take you guys to get jobs after training?

Some (a lot of this year's EZY intake, in fact) have had to wait over a year to get a six-month FlexiCrew contract, while the interest on their debt mounts up. This pattern is likely to continue for the forseeable future, with more and more cadets being pumped out of the machine and forming a long queue behind.

Still think the investment is worth it? All I can say is the very best of luck.

[jb5000]

PS - Mr Bigs: "When the airlines start actively recruiting again, freshly graduated CTC Wingers will have the upper hand won't they?"

No. Completely and utterly no. How could you ever think that to be true?

It will be like this:

1. Those with command experience on type and many thousands of hours
2. Those with command experience but not on that specific type
3. Those with some solid FO time on the aircraft they are operating.
4. Those without time on type but a proven record, perhaps a couple of thousand hours on turboprops or different jets.
5. Those that have perhaps only very limited jet experience (1,000 hours from FlexiCrew for instance).
6. Those that know someone in the company already.
7. Those that have paid for their own type rating.
8. CTC Wings Cadets that have graduated a long time ago (perhaps some that are already waiting), as it seems it is a strictly First Come / First Served when it comes to jobs when you finish the course.
9. Freshly Graduated CTC Wingers

See where I'm going with this?

Care to put a figure on how many people are in the first eight categories? Any idea just how many airlines in the world are merrily stocking up those first eight categories through redundancies / unpaid leave / furlough?

Please, open your eyes!!! I'm not being bitter or nasty, I just don't want to see you waste so much time, effort and cash for no reason.

[Zippy Monster]

freshly graduated CTC Wingers will have the upper hand won't they

I bet that's what CTC said.

Let me guess... the presentation made liberal use of the words "innovative", "quality" and "cost-effective" as well, didn't it? :}

[air_wolf]

i know "innovative" was always my particular favourite.....

the writing's been on the wall ever since ctc started increasing course sizes to 10-12. any type of market downturn and they were going to struggle to place cadets. with the hold pool growing the only way they could place pilots was by sharing the work - hence FlexiScrew. if they'd only stuck to 4-6 a course like in the good old days.....

Mr_Big - people are just trying to help you out. I know you are excited about heading out to the Tron but you'd have to be mad to start now. If i were you i'd delay a year and re-assess things then. Work like a dog, earn some cash to part-fund the course then start the training when things start picking up. Itll be the best decision you make.

[Mr_Bigglesworth]

Thanks for all your replies. It's definitely an eye opener reading posts from you ex-CTCers who have been spat out the other side.

I was rather puzzled as to why CTC aren't cutting back on their intake, but if you have people willing to shell out 76K (Including the foundation course) why would they? Except the irreversible damage to their reputation as all graduates are left high and dry, not even being able to get jobs flying cargo planes full of rubber dog turd out of Hong Kong!

I certainly can't see CTC paying off the loans of ill fated grads. However, if it has come to that how can there be a future for the company.

As much as I hate to admit it air_wolf is right. I'm not prepared to get into such a massive debt, certainly not until flight crew intake is on the up across the industry.

Cheers for your advice everyone.

[TheBeak]

Mr Big, putting off your training is the best decision you'll ever make - it'll make the difference between you actually becoming a paid pilot and not.

[Day_Dreamer]

The reason CTC is still trying to attract cadets is simple :- The answer is that they have over stretched themselves and desperately need the cash flow.
While several years ago their product fitted into market requirements, now in a down turn they are struggling to survive.

Over other schools their selling point was near 100% employment after completion of their modular style course.
Today they do not have that edge, in fact there is more hot air coming from CTC than anything else, their get rich quick schemes are falling apart as quickly as their holding pool is filling up.

The main schools FTE, OAA will survive as their financial state is more secure than CTC so anyone looking at an integrated course should consider FTE or OAA.

The market is currently saturated with pilots, experienced and fATPL but in about 18 months this glut will have cleared and cadet jobs will be opening up again, so plan to finish your course about that time.

Unless CTC find a new way to attract investment and improve cash flow they wont be around to see the upturn.

[davedek]

Day_Dreamer, I'm not sure what facts you are basing your opinion on, but I can certainly tell you this - to say "The main schools FTE, OAA their financial state is more secure than CTC so anyone looking at an integrated course should consider FTE or OAA", and "they (CTC) wont be around to see the upturn" is bordering on ridiculous. What information do you have to back up your claims?

The fact that a fair number of cadets/ATPers were staying in 4* hotels during their type-ratings earlier this year (that's 7 weeks ish), and these hotels were paid for BY CTC, shows that CTC cant be doing badly for cash at all!

Oh... and CTC also paid for the type ratings. Forgot that. And as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), I've never heard of any other FTO, including those you have mentioned, paying for a trainee's type-rating.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The fact that a fair number of cadets/ATPers were staying in 4* hotels during their type-ratings earlier this year (that's 7 weeks ish), and these hotels were paid for BY CTC, shows that CTC cant be doing badly for cash at all!


Absolutely priceless

[TheBeak]

Dave, I would say the point made by Day Dreamer is pretty accurate. If ever you needed an example, I'll give you one.

From Day Dreamer:

The answer is that they have over stretched themselves and desperately need the cash flow.

From Dave Dek:

a fair number of cadets/ATPers were staying in 4* hotels during their type-ratings earlier this year (that's 7 weeks ish), and these hotels were paid for BY CTC,

It sounds like they are haemorrhaging money as a result of their piss poor planning and their lack of resource. Possibly caused by increasing course numbers without increasing resources.

Oh... and CTC also paid for the type ratings.

Oh......you have been brain washed haven't you? I am going to let you in to a secret here Davey boy, no they didn't. But shoooooooosh. The airline have. And if they were one of those white tails that they did - guess what? No they didn't. The simulators were there regardless, correct? The instructors were on their payroll, correct? So they infact paid for electricity, correct? CTC aren't paying for anything. Are they a bottomless pit of money or a business?


And as a result of what you are saying above I'd say they are going to be a lot lighter in the pocket.

If they don't do something incredible by April 2010 they are in serious trouble I predict.

[redsnail]

No airline (or training organisation) pays rack rate on hotel accommodation.

Eg, the room I am in right now, 4* over looking the beach at a well known Cote d'Azur destination is a minimum of €225 without breakfast or gym thrown in. There is no way the company I work for pays that.

[davedek]

Beak, you completely missed the point I was making. My point was - if trainees got type ratings for nothing, where else could that happen?

I was arguing Day Dreamer's point that it would be better off to train at FTE or OAA in the future - THEY have their own simulators, THEY have their own instructors etc. etc. (the points you made), but they aren't giving their trainees type ratings for free are they?

I'm not saying CTC are rolling in hills of money, or that they're remotely perfect. I just wanted to make the point that it's silly to say they are doing worse off than other FTOs without any evidence.

[TheBeak]

My point was - if trainees got type ratings for nothing, where else could that happen?


We just established they didn't get them for nothing Dave, I didn't miss the point. You are just dancing around it and sound like you have been spun a yarn. Have some intelligence, that is, the ability to understand. You aren't understanding the situation.

but they aren't giving their trainees type ratings for free are they?


No neither are CTC are they? Anyone who is in the holdpool has paid for their training and earned their right to be there - and earned there right to a TR like they were promised. CTC are not giving anyone anything. They are lucky to have the people, not the other way around. Learn it. CTC do not pay a penny towards your TR or your future, they make money.

Dave perhaps you can answer this one for me. Why don't CTC offer their trainees, complete with TR for free to the airlines but with the same pay and benefits to the trainees? I am sure the airlines would take more of them. I'll tell you why. Because that would devalue their product for the future. Yet it seems perfectly acceptable for pilots to do it. We have outgoings too you know.

Now with regards to choosing OAA or FTE over CTC. OAA are financially tougher and I can see them gaining these 'partner airlines' from the likes of CTC. They are bigger and have more resources. They will no doubt be able to offer the airlines economies of scale - take Jet2 for instance. And as for FTE, I have rarely met anyone......no I have never met anyone disatisfied with the service they received from the organisation. These people will go on to become captains and recruiters in the future. Where do you think they'll take their business? I hear nothing but whinging and bitching about Cabair and people don't seem over the moon about CTC on here do they? So where are you going to invest your £80K investment that is secured against your parents home? As I have said, I wouldn't choose any of them. And certainly not now.

Stop believing the hype. Now I see why companies spend so much on sales and marketing. I need to get myself in to selling the dream to people.


'Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive'

[davedek]

Quote: "So where are you going to invest your £80K investment that is secured against your parents home?" Assuming that's aimed at me (rather than a general statement to all readers) you must have assumed I'm a fresh-faced wannabe about to start out on a course with CTC and so trying to defend them. I'm not about to start training anywhere. That seems like a long time ago now! :}

Here's my last post on the subject - you mention "their right to a TR like they were promised", this is the point I'm making, everyone must remember that cadets are NOT promised a type rating, let alone a job! Obviously it is heavily implied that you will, but technically it is just training to get an fATPL, and there are no guarantees, and any trainees MUST remember this (I'm sure you will agree).

On this note, if one compares the big integrated FTOs directly, the only thing each trainee from ANY school is guaranteed to come out with is a CPL/IR and 200-and-something hours. My point is: of all the trainees currently graduating these schools and NOT getting jobs right now due to the current climate - the CTC cadets seem to have got the best value for their money e.g.

1. No accomodation charges at any point in the course
2. Getting a MCC/JOC course (I must admit I dont know if OAA/FTE get this as part of the initial course costs, do they?)
3. Some are even getting a type rating, before going to an airline, at no extra cost to themselves! (which, as I've said, technically is a bonus since it was never PROMISED). Those who haven't yet, will. (Unless CTC change their current policies, no sign of that for the time being). Surely this is better than other trainees from most schools who have to either pay for a rating or try to get a job without one?
4. Reasonable prospects of some kind of employment (even if it is flexicrew, but lets not start on that, better than NOTHING right?)

So, seeing as everybody coming out of an integrated school right now is struggling, would you agree that the CTC cadets have the best prospects?

[Bambe]

Yes if you compare what you pay for and what you get, CTC is from far the best option available in the industry in term of integrated training . The only thing that is not included is your living expenses and petrol for cars in NZ (around 30 pounds a month...). And as you mentionned, job prospect is far better as you are not completely by yourself after graduation.... Ok for all that.

But what these gentlemen try to explain, it's just that CTC is no longer the 18 months course leading straight to an airline job. As I red somewhere on this thread, some guys from CP 48 are still waiting for permanent job... And CP 77 just arrived!
I would strongly advise anyone interested in this (very good) program to wait at least until next spring just to see what happens in term of job placement.. We have a catch up meeting tomorrow with CTC NZ Head of training, let's see what he will tell us.

[EZYramper]

Nothing of interest, guaranteed!

[air_wolf]

As I red somewhere on this thread, some guys from CP 48 are still waiting for permanent job...


Try CP38.

Did any easyjet guys after this course get a permanent contract?

[jb5000]

CP39 have, as well as CP40, CP41 and perhaps CP42.

Fin.

[d41xcs]

According to some people on this forum, i think i should find some quick (and cheap) way of killing myself, because clearly the world is coming to an end, and all hope is lost.....

in actual fact, this thread is making me feel only one emotion - BORED!!!!

[TheBeak]

in actual fact, this thread is making me feel only one emotion - BORED!!!!

Then please don't come on here and contribute the tripe that you just have. Do us a favour and do yourself a favour.

Still think things are all good do you? Yeah, you know better than Thomsonfly captains, Easyjet captains and FOs, NetJet pilots, Ex SkyEurope pilots, Thomas Cook pilots and Ex Excel pilots don't you? Of course you do. You crazy fool. You are headed for a nasty shock - you are past the PNR no doubt. Don't try and convince yourself it's going to be pleasant at the destination.

You may be balls deep in this mess but others don't need to be. They can save themselves and come back when the industry is a little better or not at all if they have some sense.

[bigjarv]

Still spreading the love on here then Mr Beak!!

[Rollerboy]

Hey come on bigjarv that's a little harsh on TheBeak even if in jest. What TheBeak and others on this thread are doing is offering a viewpiont to counter the seemingly endless rubbish that pours out of Dibden Manor.

It never ceases to amaze me how many cadets and wannabees think they have a complete handle on the industry they want to work in. What many of their posts on here show, is either a lack of understanding, a viewpoint expressed by others who like to market their product and a sadly naive response to the predicament they are in.

That is not to say I blame any of the cadets or wannabees on this or any other thread far from it I, like TheBeak and many others want these people to see the reality of the current situation. The current situation is very very difficult however it will pick up the question is when.

You have to ask yourself why are CTC and other FTOs still running courses when they know many of there cadets and students may never get that elusive first job. The answer is, they like all other business at the moment need cash flow and the only way to guarantee this at present is not the banks it's paying customers. That means they need you guys to remain in business and at the moment I would guess they need a large proportion of you guys who will eventually fill the 'hold oceans' of the future.

What if CTC closed up shop now? Are the cadets protected? Will they get any money back? Will the directors sell off all the assets and run? Could the training organisation be sold to another company who themselves will not honour the present commitments? These are questions you should ask yourselves whenever or wherever you start training.

My advice sit tight and wait, the industry will still be there in a year or two, however the FTO may not be.

Roller

[d41xcs]

Those who know how bad the situation is (and as we know, it's awful) don't come to PPrune to get their information. Those who don't know, do, and as a result get a multitude of good and bad advice from sources that can never be verified. PPrune is great for certain degrees of information, but it's pretty appalling if people are basing career decisions of what they read off here (because some people, sadly, believe everything they read). My BORED comment refers to the fact that this is no longer about CTC, its about why you're a stupid T%@t to be considering training at the moment. That may be true, but it has nothing to do with the CTC course or CTC selection. BORED!!

[bigjarv]

I'm afraid I agree with the man whose name is a strange combination of letters and numbers! There is no disputing that the industry is in one hell of a tough place right now and aviation directly represents the state of the economy and so as soon as you see the economy improve you will see the industry follow and will it ever recover to where it was before etc etc etc. All very valid stuff.

This post however is all about finding advice on the CTC interview and selection process for those that have taken the time to research the industry and made the "bold" decision to continue with CTC. So what these guys need or want is some good advice on how to pass the interview process, not pages and pages bickering about what decisions they should or shouldn't be making.

If you guys want to spread the realities of what is going on in the industry and offer helpful advice then you most certainly should but start your own thread. Don't hijack this one and ruin what was a very informative and helpful post for those going through CTC's selection. Make your point on here but don't take it over. If you look over the last 50 pages it is just repetition mostly from "The Bloody Beak" (!) bashing anyone who had decided to continue with the process and pointing out how rubbish the industry is.

I only come on here every now and again to see if I can offer any advice I think is prudent and try and put something back now I'm employed, but every time I return to this post, it's never about CTC or interviews but about the state of CTC's balance sheets! Usually being egged on by TheBeak. He is the only constant that has been here beating the same drum for most of the last year. Point made. Move on! Even WWW, who's opinion is well respected, has made his excellent points and left it at that. Old Beaky could learn something here.

My previous post was partly in jest but there is no need to add that "They can save themselves and come back when the industry is a little better or not at all if they have some sense.". Now Beak is bashing my industry totally and I don't like that.

I suggest that someone starts a new thread (part 3) on the CTC selection and start fresh and see if it can return to the subject. Why doesn't Mr Beak also start his own thread about the pros and cons of starting your training in the current climate. I'd be keen to add to both threads and think they would both be very useful to wannabes.

[lesgonard]

Spot on d41xcs. This thread is here to provide potential cadets with information about the wings course and selection process.

The 'Evidence that the upturn is upon us' thread provides future pilots with a detailed (if slightly hysterical) discussion on the current economic climate and how that affects the airline industry. It's certainly worth reading.

It would be nice however if the two threads could be kept seperate. Users shouldn't be subject to the vitriolic abuse they get for merely enquiring about a career in aviation.

[Air_One]

If CTC were being completly honest with new cadet's they would tell you up front how big the hold pool currently is. However good luck getting that information from the horses mouth. No one actually seems to know how many years you could potentially be waiting for a job. If you ask them all CTC will say is that 'they are still very confident despite the current market conditions' (what ever that means!).

This forum might be 'boring' - however it does provide a balanced and very real view for people who are considering spending a life changing sum of money.

If I was spending 100K I would want all the facts on which to base my decision !?
Repaying £1000 a month for the next 10 years is a big commitment ! :eek: And not one I would want to make without the near certainty of a well paid first officer job soon after graduation :ugh:

[bigjarv]

Never in the history of aviation has a job ever been guaranteed after graduating (apart from being sponsored and even then...) no matter how much money you throw at it. The fact that companies have worked hard to try and set this type of system up is a very good thing. You used to (in the civil world) have to get CPL and ATPL then instruct to get some hours, get your IR, maybe instruct some more, then get lucky and get an air taxi job or photography job, then some multi time some how, then get lucky and get the airline job. A very long route to getting to the pointy end of a jet. You did however have a great time doing it and in the process become a very, not necessarily good, but well rounded pilot with lots of experience to take to the airlines. People and airlines are too impatient to got through all that now. Want to go straight for the "glamour job"!! This is why we have these schools and people paying for their own type ratings etc. Could be argued that the old system was better. Made sure people appreciated what they got and really enjoyed the experience. Not all about the uniform!! Thats another debate thou! Oh no I'm in danger of doing the very thing I've been trying to tell people not to do!!! Back to CTC!!

[Zippy Monster]

According to some people on this forum, i think i should find some quick (and cheap) way of killing myself, because clearly the world is coming to an end, and all hope is lost.....

There's no need to resort to infantile retorts just because a few people express an opinion you don't share. You might be 'bored', but some people reading this thread might well be interested.

When you've got contributors like Mr Bigglesworth above (no offence intended, sir) who, before discussing the issue here, thought anyone with a 250hr fATPL could pop over to the Middle East or South Africa and happily jump straight into a medium jet, you have to question where this sort of idea comes from. One source, I would suspect, would be the marketing departments of these FTOs who talk about the ever-increasing demand for pilots in these 'emerging markets', while neglecting to mention that you've got more chance of winning the Euromillions without even buying a ticket than you have of getting a job there with an rating-less low-hour fATPL.

So actually, the discussion we are having here is absolutely pertinent and relevant to the CTC scheme and those intending to apply. Sorry if it bores you, but you could always use the scroll bar to skip to the more interesting stuff.

I have no idea what your position in the industry is at the moment - trainee (I suspect), unemployed or employed qualified pilot, but I would like to think that those of us on here who have been there, done that and bought the very expensive t-shirt have something useful to contribute. If you have an alternative opinion to offer then fine, but it starts to hold rather less weight if you have nothing to offer but bitter sarcasm.

it's pretty appalling if people are basing career decisions of what they read off here (because some people, sadly, believe everything they read

What a good job they do come here then. If they didn't, it might well be that the only evidence they have of the state of the industry at the moment is from the slick marketing presentations of the likes of CTC.

its about why you're a stupid T%@t to be considering training at the moment

Nope, that's not what's being said, but I would use expressions such as that to describe someone who was thinking of throwing nearly six figures' worth of secured loan at an integrated training course at the moment. Train slowly and cheaply, and adapt to the market situation. Right now, it's hopeless. If it shows signs of improvement, THEN drop everything and go for it from the position you're in.

Users shouldn't be subject to the vitriolic abuse they get for merely enquiring about a career in aviation.

Vitriolic abuse? I haven't seen any. Much of what's been on here recently has been informed comment from people who should at least be a little bit clued up. Sorry if you don't like it.

[lesgonard]

Vitriolic abuse? I haven't seen any

Just read anything by thebeak. In his last post he inferred that anyone who took the liberty of opposing his view was a 'crazy fool.' Clearly a fan of the A-team.

I'm not bored by the viewpoint he or others hold, just the repetitive and verbose manner in which it is plastered all over this forum.

[Portside]

If you want a thread to be factual (term used loosly), you have to think about the recipiants who are going to read, and dieminate what is intended to be of any use.

The Beak has been very informative, albeit from a sometimes negative point of view. However, that said, he is only saying what is true.

Yes it is a CTC thread for information, good and bad. The issue is CTC make claims of 98% of all cadets being placed. Is this true???

The decision to part with ££££££ is part of the process sadly of becoming an Airline Pilot these days. The question is which FTO gives value for money training: CTC (yes) Oxford (yes) FTE etc... (yes). Any Jobs Now, or for the forseeable future in aviation. (NO!!!!!)

FTO`s are living on past glories. Who unfortunatley are going that step further with their claims of employment. (Oops I meant to say Part time contracts. With no mention or information of how to furnish the dept, once they have your £££££ in the bank, whilst your doing the doggie paddle.)

BIGJARV. Would be happier with... SPEAK NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SEE NO EVIL.

Archive Zippy monsters threads. He says how it is for a newbie, starting out.

The bank in Hamiliton serves lovely burgers by the way, if you can afford them!!! Whilst those lovely people who have cashed down ££££`s are on fillet steak. ENJOY...
PS.

[TheBeak]

Clearly you are part of the Labour party voting do as I say, not as I do brigade BigJarv, given only a couple of years ago you were saying the following about CTC:

I've given up on CTC. Went to the BALPA Employment Oppertunities Conference and although I hate to be doom and gloom, the general message was that recruitment across the board was going to be very flat this year
(2008) in the UK but expect it to pick up the year after. Not good news as far as hold pool is concerned and think CTC are going to get a hammering on their reputation for bad judgement. May well be deserved. No longer can they say that "we are so reliable and trustworthy that even after 9/11 the longest one of our cadets waited was 9 months" (I was told this!). They had all our trust but it's fading. Great shame really as I though it was one of the only companies out there I respected for trying to change the game for the benefit of us pilot types.

And having a pop at me about my consistency and reiteration of the same point is rich coming from someone who has made an excessive amount of posts proclaiming 'get a head for the sky'.

You are giving your advice, I am giving mine. Accept it.

Lesgonard:

just the repetitive and verbose manner

So you must be bored of BigJarv too then. And stop using big words, you clearly don't understand the meaning of the word to describe my advice Vitriolic? You little flower. Open your eyes. Wake up. Don't dare go near the real world will you.

If I was spending 100K I would want all the facts on which to base my decision !?
Repaying £1000 a month for the next 10 years is a big commitment !

Exactly Air_One and that is one of the points. And it is nearer £1300 at the low interest rates.

What if CTC closed up shop now?

Exactly. And my opinion, though it is only my opinion, is that if they do not place new pilots (not FlexiCrew guys and girls) by April 2010, this company will be in dire trouble. I'd strongly recommend holding fire to any potential trainee and waiting and seeing what happens around that time. It may be great news. It probably wont be. There is quite a long term to your commitment to the company, and, just like being an airline pilot, you are going to need to think well ahead of the 'aircraft'. Is this company really going to be around in 2 years time? Really? Talk is cheap. Let's see some action shall we.


Why am I saying this? Because they have chosen to market their fantastic past employment records and use them to hook new customers in. They perhaps do not guarantee anything. They do however 'heavily imply' it in the words of our friend Dave. Sure if it was £50 or even £4000 I wouldn't be bothered to write on here. But it is smart, ambitious peoples futures and large sums of money which, in the most part, are secured against families homes. The potential and unfortunately probable consequences don't bare thinking about. Let's see who feels vitriolic then shall we?

I'll second Portsides comment, listen to Zippy Monster if you want a less Vitriolic tone to things. And cheers Rollerboy.:ok:

[bigjarv]

If you want to pass CTC, the best book I have found that seems to be directly based on CTC's selection process and is an absolutely excellent read for any interview is Get a Head for the Sky. It was recommended to me and I am entitled to recommend it to everyone else because it is the most helpful aid to passing CTC's selection bar none. That is my honest opinion which I totally stand by. Almost as helpful as this thread used to be before it was hijacked! That is why I put it on here.

I went through CTC a while back and had nothing but praise for them. Great outfit. On completing the AQC however I sat in a hold pool for over a year. Bad timing as the industry was slow. Luckily I was instructing at the time (which incidentally I highly recommend) so still flying and keeping current and keeping body and soul together. Also did a bit or arial photography. I was becoming disillusioned with CTC as the pool was huge and whilst CTC were completely honest they were not keeping us as informed as perhaps they could. Waiting for something to happen is very frustrating. I got offered a job elsewhere because of my experience and contacts from instructing. I accepted. In the next 4 weeks almost the whole hold pool emptied to Easy and Thomas Cook I think. That showed me!! All my buddies I did my course with are still happily employed by Easy. Did I make the right choice not remaining with CTC? Who knows. I do know I am very very happy where I am.

That was my story so I hope you now understand my comments. I was wrong about CTC thou. They did eventually come through and place everyone in the pool.

Beak I don't want to bicker with you at all so lets not get into the quotes of each other, its so very childish (although I'm impressed you have research my posts). I think you are right believe it or not. I would not like to be at the back of the Q in a hold pool right now which is where going to CTC will get you. Certainly I would hold off until the hold pool has emptied out a bit. However if you have the money and don't mind waiting then go for it. I also agree that if you must fly, maybe instructing may be a better idea but even those jobs are hard to come by right now which says something. Maybe go modular so you can just do a bit here and there. Thats my advice which isn't too dissimilar to yours.

If people want to do it thou, having read your mass of opinions which you have very kindly shared over the last 6 months, then let them get on with it and find out the information they have come on here to find which I expect is advice on CTC. I know you won't give up because that would be accepting defeat and you just don't seem able to stop yourself. I guess you really feel you are helping.

Tonight I flew back from Dusseldorf to the UK and we fly over London. From overhead near Amsterdam I could see London's lights with the most amazing sunset. Flew right over the top of London at 28000ft and it's about the best I've ever seen it. Was stunning. So clear and beautiful. Moments like that make our job better than anyone else's in my opinion. I absolutely love it and I'm very privileged to do it. I can't blame anyone for being keen to get involved. It's brilliant!

[bigjarv]

"Clearly you are part of the Labour party voting do as I say, not as I do brigade BigJarv"

Tee hee!! Political too!!

Couldn't resist!! Happy Tuesday!!

[lesgonard]

And stop using big words

thebeak, why the disapprobation? I've to stop using words you don't understand yet I'm not ready for the real world... Which is it mate? I don't understand why you're demanding that people stay clear of CTC when it was Oxford that landed you in the position you're in now. For all you know potential cadets are reading this in the hope of applying in two years time. They must be sick of reading the same thing over and over again. "Don't train now, train modular and do it slowly for the upturn." Noted!!!!

bigjarv. Glad everything came right for you eventually. Great to hear a success story in these times.

[d41xcs]

ahhh so it was Oxford...oops!

[Mister-Sheep]

Hi everyone.

I started CTC Oct 06 and was put on CP41, now I’m permanent with Thomas Cook. Personally I cannot complain about CTC they did exactly what it says on the tin. However I can appreciate why people do and I appreciate that I have been incredibly lucky to get a permanent contract.

I know it’s easy for me to say but if I hadn't started my training yet I would probably want to wait for a few years. Even if you start training now and the industry has recovered by the time you finish you will still be waiting behind a massive holding pool. Quite a few people from CP41 still haven't got permanent contracts and there is nothing on the horizon. However, I know someone who is cabin crew for our airline and is currently undergoing modular training but because they have been with the company for a long time and have got to know a lot of the captains and management they are in a great position should anything arise.

Apologies if I’m preaching something that has already been said.

[Gertie Vow]

Everyone knows that employment prospects are weak at the moment and we don't need to go into the reasons for that they are clearly understood.

Do your research and make your own mind up about whether to (try to) enter training and bear in mind that you will not be looking for a job for about 24 months when employment prospects will have changed. My best guess is improved greatly.

When demand for Pilots comes back it will do so with a bang, history tells us that this is the most likely scenario, and the hold pools, lists & data bases will be used up quickly.

Ask yourselves which Pilot training school will be preferred. The one with best reputation for higher quality graduates will be first port of call.

Which one is that? Well CTC has the best rep and has never, as far as I am aware, failed to place a graduated trainee with an airline although there may be an understandable wait.

If I were doing it all over again I would do it with CTC, if they would have me, and I wouldn't hesitate to do it now.

[TheBeak]

I'm not biting. I have said my piece.

[air_wolf]

Gertie Vow - did you actually train at ctc? Have you found a job or still waiting?

[Zippy Monster]

More to the point, what was the purpose of that post Gertie? Nothing's been said on the subject for a week, then you pop up with that.

My opinion - I disagree that we will see anything like the hiring boom we did in 2005-6 etc again. I believe it will come back with more of a steady flow than a bang, and the order in which people are taken will be as jb5000 said a couple of pages back. Post 3469, if you're interested.

[TheBeak]

Hear, hear Zippy.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You see Gertie my best guess, and I've made a few, is that 2 years from now will be the nadir for pilot employment. It is this winter and next that I expect to see major failures and contractions but in the UK and the much wider JAA community.

A guess is a guess. But mine is based on a full assessment of past history - is yours?


WWW

[one post only!]

If I was a betting man I think I would put a few quid down on WWW to be correct rather than Gertie!

Although I had to look up what nadir meant......................

[R T Jones]

I also had to look up what nadir meant and was not very happy when I learnt. 2011 is now the low point, when possibly can we hope to be hoovered up from this hold pool?

[Mintflavour]

So how big is the pool at the moment and how quickly is it continuing to grow???
Is there still an ATP pool and a Cadet pool.

cheers

Mint

[Gertie Vow]

Air Wolf - At my age. You must be joking!

Zippy Monster - Just stumbled across the thread and, having an (educated?) view, thought I would express my opinion as many have done before me.

WWW - Let's wait and see. I hope you are wrong.

One post only - Using tricky words only makes it sound intelligent!

Mint flavour - Couldn't find out either the size of the Cadet hold pool or the ATP data base sorry. But surely the numbers don't mean much as they don't provide you with any info as to how long you would have to wait which is the key issue. I just think, as I said before, I'd rather be on a CTC list than anywhere else.

I think I'll go now!

GV

[99jolegg]

Gertie - you're entitled to your say as much as the next person!

As for the hold pool, I believe it's knocking on for 100 now. CTC estimate there will be roughly 50-80 IR renewals to be done. That was as of a couple of months ago, don't know if the figure for IR renewals has changed.

[Zippy Monster]

Presumably this number is just those who have yet to begin their type rating, and doesn't include those who are being returned to CTC by their respective airlines this winter? I'm thinking specifically of the TCX cadets and those at on FlexiCrew at EZY not being offered sporadic flying over the winter.

If so, that number can be considered to be a bit higher.

[jb5000]

http://stevensadmissions.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/03/huge_crowd.jpg

Get the picture?

[Gertie Vow]

What?

get a job as a tram driver.

[jb5000]

Of course not!

I meant.... buy a horse.

[TheBeak]

It was 80-90 4-5 - months ago - I am feeling generous, we can call it 80 4 months ago. Apparently growing at 12 per month, 80 + (4 x 12) = 128. Then there are ATP pilots and then, as Zippy says, there are all the EZY and TCX guys and girls coming back to be re-placed ahead of non TR'd pilots. And there is not a chance of a re-placement before February (again me being kind), so that's another 5 months of 12 which is 60 so by that stage it'll be about 190 in the Wings pool + ATP pilots. The ATP people really have no chance I am afraid given their 'purpose'. As I have said, if people haven't been placed by April 2010 I think they wont be able to claim 100% placement for much longer.


Good answer jb.

[Mintflavour]

What do CTC class as 100% reprsent. i.e. everyone given a perm position. or everyone placed all be it just a tempory post and now returned to the pool/ocean. If it was the first then the 100% ended last last autumn as there are a couple of people still havent been re-posted since returning to the hold pool last autumn despite being type rated.

mint:ugh:

[sleggy]

hi guys can anyone explain what the real costs for the CTC cadet programme is. I know the training has changed for 2009 so want to know realistically what i will be paying for

[Mintflavour]

I was doing a TR with a number of CTC 08 cadets and they all pretty much had £100k loans by this stage.

good luck

mint

[One9iner]

Sorry to drag this thread back into the limelight after a fairly quiet few days in here....

I’ve been wanting to make a point about the atmosphere within the CTC Wings thread on Pprune for a while. Please note I haven't been through the whole selection process (yet) and do not work for, or for anyone involved with CTC. I do however, know a few who have been through the selection process & are still within the system.

I think and hope you agree, that during the current economic mess we're in (UK/Europe/World!) the views and experiences of others in here who have been through the CTC/Oxford/FTE/Cabair machine, are not pretty reading sentences and paragraphs; but they do however offer ‘in the face’, valued, real life stories from which all of us 'wannabes' must use as an asset of information. This asset must be used while deciding which opinion to believe, piece of advice to use, story to remember, FTO to choose, mod/int decision, UK/US/NZ preferred base bla etc… .yadada.. bla etc bla etc.... etc...during our bloody massive decision process !!!!!

I am one of many who have hit 'TheBeak' and co. with a few words of 'ok we get it, it's sh1t right now, we know, leave it' ... but when it comes to the crunch, the crumb these guys are swallowing is a massive weight on their shoulders, and in turn a massive spot on an otherwise rose tinted sunset for you and I as we all decide the timing of our personal dive into the industry.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the continuous, and relentless message from 'TheBeak, WWW and co' that we've got the currency sh1ts right now, and nobody knows what unsustainable future we have, and we could be worse off by March 2010, Jan 2011, Feb 2018... BUT!!! This is a message from the people within the hole... This IS an opinion that doesn't put a smile on my face, but it's an opinion we all MUST listen to, and use when making decisions, especially one that will implicate our lives forever, and of others who we care for!!

One gripe I still have though, is the fact that we all – me included- , from whatever backgrounds, ages, nations, positions etc… we come from; we all share the same passion of flying, but still manage to verbally rip chunks out of one and another.... I appreciate real life advice, but let’s keep it informative, and let’s keep it polite. You never know, we may end up flying with each other, and if we don't get on during our Pprune exchanges, we'll be forced to swallow a big Ikea sized bag of CRM when it comes to the real thing!!!

Regards

:ok:

[Oranguzee]

In regards to your last paragraph One9iner,couldn't do any better!Just by browsing the website and reading full on,heated arguements,mostly(dont take offence)started by the "bullies"!You cannot make a simple question over here,public forum where you were supposed to make them,and you get put down quicker than Paris Hilton knickers....it really puts me off the profession.How would have been to be in the flight deck for x amount of hours maybe days with people like that?
Where's the camaraderie?anyway just a thought...happy flying

[Zippy Monster]

I can pretty-much guarantee you that most of the people sounding off on these forums with petty name-calling and insults would be completely different if you were having the same debate around the table in the pub over a pint. That's the unfortunate nature of anonymous internet forums.

There's camaraderie, which is all well and good, but if camaraderie stretches to trying to convince each other everything will be alright when faced with no job and repayments on a £75k loan (before interest) secured on your folks' house, then brutal honesty has to come to the fore instead. Unfortunately the way some choose to put that honesty across on here grates with others - understandably so, but if you can read between the forceful choice of words the points made are often very valid. I'm glad one9iner has taken the time to point out that the stories from those of us who have now been through the system and are in the airlines (or importantly, not in them, in the case of many) are of use - even if it helps only a few people to make a sensible, rational decision rather than blindly throwing a large 5-figure sum at an FTO on the basis of some fancy PR, then it's been time well spent.

[TheBeak]

A nice valid post there one9iner.

Unfortunately the way some choose to put that honesty across on here grates with others - understandably so, but if you can read between the forceful choice of words

Who's that?:uhoh:

the crumb these guys are swallowing is a massive weight on their shoulders

It genuinely is an awful time, at times it is consuming. Especially when there is absolutely nothing you can do bar spend a quite frankly sick amount of money that one doesn't have......as a reult of being a pilot.

Is there any further news on this below?

Interesting reading on the general section forum of the BALPA website at the moment, regarding the Wings scheme in general and flexicrew in particular. Particularly interesting is the allegation that CTC have paid some cadets' bonds off to avoid the negative publicity of the aforementioned cadets declaring bankruptcy. Smoke, fire? You decide.

[One9iner]

:sad: ...TheBeak.. that last quote about CTC paying off newbie bonds is the first time i've seen that piece of info!!! Yikes...

Beak/Zip ; As I say. your opinions are great, as long as we don't rip each others ears off :ouch:

(edited to say, some blind people, who don't research, and expect mummy's 1950's porsche to pay out, are the people that a) won't be reading this .. and b) deserve an ear flicking :{:{:ugh:

[TFlexMax80]

Beak,

There has been no further mention of it in the Balpa forum thread in question. Let's just say, I can't imagine the person who said it would have done so in jest.

TFM80

[One9iner]

As I say; 'yikes'.... Surely though the price of 'leaving a cadet swimming' waiting for an upturn, is pref. other than buying the boys loan out.. to then dump the chap or leave him on the books while the lender is stewing after making next to a zero interest gain??? (in comparison to a normal 6/7 year repayment package)

What do I know !!! The learning curve seems to be gaining a steeper yet steeper angle as my flight training seems to profile table mountain.....

[R T Jones]

"making next to a zero interest gain???"

zero interest, I can assure you this is not the case. HSBC have been very accommodating with cadets having to defer the loan. A nice quote I read somewhere on these forums, "if you owe the bank £1,000 its your problem. If you owe them £100,000 its their problem." Certainly a little truth in that...

[One9iner]

No disagreement from me about the accuracy of my relaxed statement : zero %.

My point was more surrounding the lender preferred state of play.

If CTC feel the need to buy out a cadet’s loan from HSBC to protect CTC’s record (that’s say an £80k loan, 2 years old)….. with nothing on the loan other than interest…big price for CTC to shell out for, while maintaining image...

What's the price of that image I wonder!?

[TheBeak]

"if you owe the bank £1,000 its your problem. If you owe them £100,000 its their problem."

A very true statement and incredibly wise words......until it is secured on a property and then it becomes your (parents) problem again. Something these newbies must remember.

As for CTC repaying the debt, I can't see why they would do that, I can't see in fact how they manage to do alot of the things they do. There must be more to it than meets the eye - they can't be doing it just to save face and preserve image can they? I do however believe that it has probably happened. Perhaps they are playing the long game so that, in time, they can get the unsecured loan back in the future. I think they'll be waiting a long time and have probably delayed the inevitable if so.

as long as we don't rip each others ears off

Sounds fair to me.

[99jolegg]

No, it's not guaranteed at all.

It used to be pretty much guaranteed, since for years, CTC never had a cadet leave without a job.

Now a wait of 18 months or more is likely in the hold pool but there is no guarantee of a job after those months waiting for recruitment to pick up.

That said, is anything in aviation guaranteed?

[TheBeak]

Don't be sorry sponsorship hunter, ask away. And no it's not guaranteed. Far from it in fact.

[x933]

If CTC feel the need to buy out a cadet’s loan from HSBC to protect CTC’s record (that’s say an £80k loan, 2 years old)….. with nothing on the loan other than interest…big price for CTC to shell out for, while maintaining image...

If CTC can afford to do this for anything more than the odd cadet then:

A) They're being bankrolled by an idiot
OR
B) You were being ripped off on your training.

It sets a very dangerous precedent though. For reference - I didn't pass selection for CTC 2 years ago. Am I bitter? No. Am I glad? Guess.

[TheBeak]

For reference - I didn't pass selection for CTC 2 years ago. Am I bitter? No. Am I glad? Guess.

However if you are ever going to do the training or if you have, the unsecured loan would have made life alot less stressful.

I'd still be interested to know why CTC paid off these trainees loans and at what stage these trainees (FOs) are at.

There must be more to it that meets the eye. It's another thing I'd want to understand before handing over my money to CTC to potentially pay off someone elses debt.

Apparently, according to rumours, the ATPL ground school work is going to be completed in the UK prior to coming out to New Zealand to begin your flying training

Has the payment schedule changed now that the course structure has 'changed shape'? I wouldn't like to think they are making the payments front heavy to improve liquidity - Ground School costs very little compared to flying. I am not accusing, and I am sure they aren't, but be careful and look into this - they can't justify the same payment schedule as before.

[FANS]

You have to be off your rocker to consider an integrated course now, unless you can afford to loose £80k.

Forget borrowing money on your folks' home. If you need to borrow, you can't afford it and should not be doing it in the current climate.

CTC used to be a fantastic product that benefitted all concerned, but to do it now you'd need to be a huge risk taker, and airlines don't like huge risk takers!

Seriously, look at the threads around wizzair getting 1000s of applicants, EZY's flexi-crew, RYR trying to further cut t&cs (what's next?) every airline cutting routes/jobs/going bust etc. The industry is absolutely knackered and people just need to get real.

If it comes back in 2 years, then you've won some more time to save and lost nothing. Airlines and deep recessions are an awful combination and peoples lives could be ruined borrowing huge amounts for training.

[TheBeak]

Sorry, I have just realised how my post may have sounded, I am long past ever doing training with CTC or anyone else. I was posting hypothetically. I agree with you.

[Portside]

The next edition of the Log has a long article on CTC and its effect on the airlines, in which (surprisingly) CTC gave an interview. It brings up several new and interesting points.
Hitting your doormats in about three weeks folks ..... !

Just as an aside, Easyjet pilots are the second biggest contributor, (BA being the largest), to BALPA. So it begs the question why are these CTC Guys / Girls not being supported by Easyjet CC BALPA?? Before it raises its head again, I know they are not employees of Easyjet. And that`s the point, Why not.. There is either a postion to be filled or not.

Just thought I`d ask....

PS

[Zippy Monster]

So it begs the question why are these CTC Guys / Girls not being supported by Easyjet CC BALPA??

As the CTC cadets/FlexiCrew (two separate groups, although most FlexiCrew are ex-cadets) are not employees of easyJet, the easyJet BALPA CC cannot represent them. They can only represent easyJet employees.

CTC trainees/FlexiCrew can still be members of BALPA and are encouraged to be so, but at company level there is little representation available - there is no recognition within CTC, and they do not come under the collective agreements covering easyJet staff.

Yes, I wish it was different.

[one post only!]

Balpa are trying (or going to shortly) to get union recognition from CTC so that they can represent trainees and the flexi guys. This will hopefully close the gap
where the EZY CC cannot represent the cadets flying at EZY. They could then be represented directly or by the CC of the airline they are working for I guess. I would like to think this would have benefits for all involved (pilot wise anyway!!!).

[TheBeak]

It's quiet on this thread! Is there any news with regards to placements for you guys and girls? What feedback have they offered you with regards to movement?

[roboa]

I would also like to ask the same as the beak, any news from CTC recently for those of you in the hold pool

[Throttle to Bottle]

Sorry guys no gossip to tell, its patience till the new year. CTC doesn't let us know anything until they have concrete agreements or dates in place.

chelsce - wouldn't we all. Outsiders can kick up some good debates though so everyones welcome!

[one post only!]

I wondered for a while whether to post this or not for fear of sparking a “the industry is doomed” versus “no it’s the best time to train debate” but sod it here goes.

CTC have recently asked for volunteers to go along and help at the recruitment days they are soon to be running at universities. They have always liked someone stood there adorned in stripes to help “wow” the future recruits to join the scheme.

My question to those going (or those who volunteered to go but weren’t picked) is what are (were) you going to say? Are you going to be brutally honest about what’s happening now or sugar coat it?

I have to be slightly honest when I got the email as I am free and near one of the uni’s I thought I might go along and tell people exactly what is happening at the moment so they get a clear, bias free picture and can make their decision armed with a few facts. I decided against it as I don’t want to get involved! What did amaze me is that this time round they had so many people volunteering to go that they are going to just pick a few. For previous drives they have struggled to get one or two. I guess it speaks volumes about the number of cadets sat waiting in the growing hold pool.

In a time when cadets are not getting taken on, those that are, are on flexi contracts being sent round Europe to bases with a just get there and sort yourself out approach. Do 6 months (maybe) in the UK, then we will send you abroad for a bit, then somewhere else if you are lucky etc. Or a 6 month on, 6months off contract in the UK for some airlines. When in Europe for a few months you have to provide your own accommodation, transport, pay your loan etc all at short notice with no idea where you will be next, if you will be kept on and how much you will be earning. The internal CTC forum has a couple of threads where cadets are openly talking about looking at going bankrupt as loan repayments spiral out of control.

If asked by future candidates will you discuss this? Will you give people all the information to allow them to plan accordingly for when they complete training?

I still think you have a far better chance with CTC than going it alone but I didn’t want to go and help recruit as I would feel guilty reading the CTC forum in 18 months time as these people are on there asking those who have gone bankrupt before how they do it! As I can’t say for a FACT to people looking to start that they will get a permanent job in a few years I don’t want to help recruit. Not when so much of your own money is now involved.

Can you honestly look someone in the eye and tell them it’s PROBABLY going to work out and to put their parent’s house on the line?

To be honest I think it’s slightly immoral of CTC to get past graduates involved with things the way they are.

Please don’t take this as me knocking the scheme, just sometimes the spin the “scheme” puts out.

I just really feel for the guys at the moment I see going through it all. It’s not easy for them. I wish I could help. I can’t. Therefore I will absolutely not help encourage more people into their situation.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks for sharing that. I think you did the right thing in not getting involved. These are life defining decisions that can go either way. CTC have a profit motive and will have to answer to their own conscience. No need to make others complicit and also mildly degrading to be the eye candy on the stall I would have thought.


WWW

[Throttle to Bottle]

One post only - I know what you mean, I cannot believe the turnout...oh wait I can. It will be all those people that want to be seen in a uniform and have an excuse to look important before going to the job centre to sign on for another 2 weeks the next morning.

I cannot bring myself to advertise CTC so I think it is best for both parties if I don't go to any of these events. For those going that are willing to lie to future cadets and say how amazing it all is - shame on you. If you can look at yourself in the mirror while wearing that worn out uniform and truly think 'everything is great' then go sing your heart out.

CTC aren't the only ones at it though, someone said to me the other day "no its fine the instructors at Oxford were great, they said this is the best time to train because it will all be much better by the time I finish"...tututut :=