The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[timotei]

I passed all phases this summer...anyone in CP80 starting in jan 10??? :rolleyes:

[FrenchScotPilot]

Hi guys,

Who would care to react to the 11 page October 09 HoW where it is mentionned about talks to middle east airlines, pool seniority, answers to BALPA, possibility of self funding TR (although not upfront) ?

Best regards,

FSP

[Tiger_ Moth]

One post only,

I would look at it a different way: of course there was a flood of volunteers: you get £50 for one of these days, and it's not like many of the volunteers have any other income at the moment!

[Mintflavour]

I will then.
My back ground is been through the system, completed 6 months line training and back into the hold pool, temping jobs and on the doll..... and all that :ugh:
Generally mixed feelings about the news letter. Balpa took the words out of my mouth as they were similar questions I was beginning to ask, but CTC never really give a full answer when you email them, which is a shame as that just makes me loose more confidence.

The news letter was very positive and gave some feel good factor about the long term future as I believe much of it is true.

On the other hand I feel it was written to much towards 'the students are there No.1 and only priority'. Now I don't know how the business operates financially with the airlines, but the way we are handled at the moment, for example fresh cadets have priority over those that already have completed line experience but unfortunately let go by the airline, is not only beneficial to the airline but I would also suspect to CTC as well.
Which is fair enough, as CTC is a business as well as a training organisation, and in order to survive this down turn they need to balance business needs along with there training services. I wish they would just be more open about this.

With regards to cadets being taken on as cheap labour and let go or words to that affect. I feel CTC are one of many players that is allowing this to happen, even though CTC pass the buck by saying "but it is what the airlines are demanding". This is why I think it is one of CTC's business needs to do this as well in order to survive. CTC have much more clout about them than they are willing or relise to use to face the airlines and say "no this are not good terms and conditions".

However CTC did say that they are now in discussions with EJ to try and help career progression. But then this was contradicted by saying that other airlines will soon be following suit for this cheap labour option. Well why not discuss with them with what you are discussing with EJ as well?

Seniority.
Well no one is asking CTC to stop training people. But I do not believe it is right for fresh Cadets to take new positions while others with experience in the hold pool are on the doll.
CTC mentioned it wasn’t right for fresh cadets to finish training then get cold on the doll etc before getting a job. Well this does not differ much from completing your training and line training for 6 months then applying for the doll, getting cold. I completed line training and now I’m getting very cold and feel that all my confidence is gone from flying the aircraft without redoing a lot of training again, just like the chap mentioned in the balpa mag, which is a point CTC seem to miss. Further,CTC mentioned it was done like this so we had more to put on our CV for potential jobs..........What potential jobs, so whats the point?

Therefore I think if you are let go after line training you should then be at the top of the pile for any position over fresh cadets to allow those who joined CTC first to progress there career first. Just like in the normal world. Those with experience got the job. I would much rather complete my training, wait years is necessary then start my career. Not finish training wait for an airline position, then do 6 months line training, then finish back on to the doll, then wait another year to start my career......... this is not stability.

It is now possible for cadets to undercut us with line experience, then by chance, some will be offered permanent jobs straight away, while us unlucky ones will remain in the hold pool for 1…..2…..3… or so years.

As CTC said they do not make us go to any airline, we can turn down offers if they are unsuitable ie Middle east airlines and far east and then the next person inline get s offered itwhich is good. As some of us have circumstances that do not allow us to move abroard, and if that means I have to wait longer then so be it.

Again with regards to cheap labour, Balpa accused this is reducing flght safety. I agree with CTC's defence, but I also appreciate the view that training captains are having more continuous pressure and therefore fatigue may set in and we all know what happens then. But it was wrong for the Balpa or who ever wrote this, to relate this with the tail scrape at monarch incident. This can happen to anyone!

CTC is still a great scheme, I just don't agree with the way somethings have been handled over the last 18 months.

If I think of any more points I will add them later.

This is my view only. I am not slagging anyone off

Love to hear your views to.

Mint

[Zippy Monster]

For the record - ex-cadet, now in full time employment.

I would echo One Post Only's comments about the request for assistance at these recruitment days. I considered it for a very short time and then thought to myself "actually, what would I say?!" I'm all for doing one's bit when it's appropriate - I loved getting involved when I was training and after all, the course is very good and for me did exactly what it advertised it would do. But things are different now than they were then, and bursting out of the bubble without a job and with a lot of debt opens your eyes to the realities of the situation a bit more.

It matters not whether some people think now is a good time to start training or not - nobody has a crystal ball and can see exactly what is going to happen in 18 months' or 2 years' time. I would only be able to draw on my past experience. How could I possibly stand there, while there is growing talk of a number of cadets facing impending bankruptcy, a move towards flexible (i.e. temporary) contracts and, in the past few years, a massive increase of cadets shortly before a big recession resulting in a massive backlog to clear, and look prospective trainees and their parents in the eye and tell them that now is a great time to start training?! How would I feel when I saw them desperately scraping round for a job and trying to stave off hungry creditors, as some are doing now, after I had attended one of these days with my nice uniform and big smile, and told them about how wonderful the job is? This is before I factor in my opinion about it being completely and utterly irresponsible to stake someone's house on a job requiring repayments of £1k/month plus, for the best part of a decade, before you even start to consider your normal cost of living, in one of the most volatile and sensitive industries on the planet. (Yes, my loan was unsecured, and if I was starting now and this was still the case, I'd still be highly dubious.)

Plus, I'd want more than 50 measly quid for my time when the company stand to make many times more that from whichever starry-eyed wannabes think my airline uniform looks cool.

[PENNINE BOY]

CTC = PIMPS Pure prostitution for the so called industry!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[One9iner]

Mintflavour... (or anyone else that can)

Could you kindly point me in the direction of the "11 page October 09 HoW" document or press release?

Many thanks

One9er

[EGCC4284]

Great article in BALPA's The Log page 16

[One9iner]

care to elaborate or point me in the direction of your information?

[Portside]

EGCC4284 Whats great about it???

The Logs reports: THERE MAY BE TROUBLE AHEAD. Worrying trends in training and working conditions mean that what was once a great job for life is in real danger of becoming a seasonal job for students.

There are quotes from CTC, and OAA executives.

Seems to me BALPA are reporting after the horse has bolted.

NOTHING GREAT ABOUT THE ARTICLE AT ALL. Bl**dy terrible exploitation.

Anyway off to work.

PS

[Throttle to Bottle]

Another article of interest for those wanting to know more about CTC and the current situation qualified cadets are in:

Training to fly a desk (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/11/03/334222/training-to-fly-a-desk.html)

A little more focus on the positives, so read with the BALPA article to get a balanced view!

[EGCC4284]

Great as in the bubble is about to burst

If it looks like no jobs at the end, then the uptake will reduce causing a shortage

You dont have to tell me the downside of CTC, I know.

I have 1100 hours on 737. Who is Monarch easyJet and Thomas Cook going to employ. Me or a CTC airbus cadet with 500 hours no matter how many hours I have.

I wonder how many CTC Cadets are waiting for type rating and line training. I am guessing not far off 200???? Does anyone know

[one post only!]

Tiger moth, I totally agree, £50 is a lot of money when you are on the dole. Thats why I think its a bit immoral to ask cadets to get involved. Dangle £50 in front of a broke cadet and then dangle the cadet in front of uni students! I understand why they are doing it. I don't have to like it though (the presentation not the guys doing it!!!!).
It just seems to be the whole way the industry is going though. People desperate for work and money, through no fault of their own and then people (airlines etc) taking advantage of the situation they are in. That's business I guess. I don't have to like that either!!!!!

P.S I also think the back to school thing takes the piss!!!!!!!!! :yuk: (Add unpaid marketing assistant to the CV)

[future flier]

Does anyone know how many people there are per course? Have the numbers gone down recently or are CTC still filling courses?

[One9iner]

Course structure has changed so that groundschool (14 x ATPL exams) are completed in one go in the UK in 5 months, before flight training begins in NZ for 7 months, and then back to BOH to complete multi engine.

As a result, the previous intake of 10/15 per month has been changed to 24 per 2 months. So no, the numbers haven't really changed.

[air_wolf]

You'd think CTC would have reduced the numbers per course to help keep the hold pool at a managable size. They're just stitching up those already swimming, who one day hope to get a full time contract, by providing an almost endless supply of cheap cadets who can be hired on temporary flexicrew contracts.

The problem is CTC has expanded so quickly and invested so heavily, that the only way this cost base can be supported is by taking on ~12 wannabes per course, which is blatantly too many. Its an unsustainable business model.

[future flier]

Thanks one9iner

I've been accepted onto a course to start next year and was wondering why they split the course for the flying training - makes sense now!

Its interesting they're still filling the courses. I went to Jerez (FTE) last month and on the latest course there was only 6!

[TheBeak]

Its interesting they're still filling the courses.

Quite. It is very interesting. It must be quite a sales team they have there.

You'd have to be genuinely delusional to start with CTC any time before May 2010. I wouldn't touch them yet. See what they do with their placements and then move forward or away more confidently. The first 4 months of 2010 are going to be pivotal for this company in particular, because of the very specific product that they are selling - if they don't deliver on what they 'heavily imply' (in the words of dave) of course the bottom will fall out of it. Actions speak louder than thousands of engineered words.

Take the advice as it is meant - to help.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

BA slumps to record loss as strikes loom - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/6512163/BA-slumps-to-record-loss-as-strikes-loom.html)

Largest number of insolvencies in at least half a century - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/6513194/Largest-number-of-insolvencies-in-at-least-half-a-century.html)


Join the dots.

WWW

[One9iner]

WWW; I'm sorry but what has this got to do with the CTC Wings programme? There are plenty of other threads on the go talking about 'the downturn / upturn ' or the general state of the economy.

CTC are still operating, granted the holding pool is bursting, but for some people, this thread should be a source of CTC discussion. Not a discussion about BA's losses, or how many people have gone bankrupt in the last year.

[sharpclassic]

Ohhh, shot gun being the first to jump on One9iner!!!

(condescending hat on)

Right SonnyJim,

What our friend WWW is trying to demonstrate is the link between airlines having MASSIVE problems (no jobs available) and young wannabe's shelling out several thousand pounds on training (after which there are no jobs).

Massive Debt + No Jobs = Insolvency

In the words of John Cleese...

" Understand? Now write it out a hundred times. And if it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off"

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Record airline losses and record numbers of people going bankrupt are key issues for anyone swimming in the CTC hold pool or thinking of diving in I'd say.


WWW

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I'm so glad I stuck to my guns over the many years and decided not to get into debt with flying, I will eventually need a loan, but a very small sum compared to these CTC guys/girls and I think it's that, that will benefit me personally in the long run.

Saying that when times do improve, I expect them to get into jobs first alongside experienced pilots.

I don't know what the agreement is with CTC and their students about the financing side of things, with the 3rd party/bank providing the loan, I wonder if their payments will be delayed and they may only have to start paying back when jobs come about?... hmm, wouldn't suprise me.

I nearly got into CTC, but I do feel happier I don't have this massive debt over my head, worries about job security and paying it off.

[One9iner]

We all know the economy is on it's arse. We all know the airline industry is facing a tough and protracted downturn...

There are other threads talking about these issues, and poeple are viewing their opinions, and providing links to other websites as you have done to back these up.

Economic issues that affect guys in the CTC holdpool, also affect any other person in any other pool, or FTO, so discuss it in one of the generic threads that already exist. All the information is of use, and anyone who is about to get into debt, before entering an integrated programme needs to research carefully before doing so. I feel we agree there !

The constant traffic in the CTC thread about the economy, is not specific to the Wings scheme.

WWW, in your opinion, CTC are "scum", how about other FTO's? Cabair? Oxford? Why the specific attack on CTC?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This is a 90 page thread which followed on from one that ran over 100 pages long. I think we can afford a little thread creep.

WWW

[Zippy Monster]

I don't know what the agreement is with CTC and their students about the financing side of things, with the 3rd party/bank providing the loan

Basically, the arrangement is "you obtain the financing, pay us, and it's your responsibility to make the repayments". CTC cannot and do not get involved in the individual relationship between the cadet and the bank - once the money has been drawn down, it is the cadet's problem. Even in the good old days when it was that HSBC would grant the whole amount unsecured, on the back of the course's reputation, placement record and the availability of cheap and easy money, once the financing arrangements were in place to pay for the course, CTC themselves were not, and are not, party to the cadet's banking setup.

I wonder if their payments will be delayed and they may only have to start paying back when jobs come about?

In the past this was often possible - all it would take would be a quick phone call or a pop into the branch. Since the financial meltdown, things have changed a bit and, suffice to say, HSBC have lately taken a rather (actually, make that very) aggressive stance on obtaining repayments.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

Aren't I glad I'm doing it the cheaper route then rather than the expensive way!!

It's all about timing, shear luck and the hope that *hit doesn't hit the fan, because if it does, lets hope they can manage :suspect:.

I assume these large loans are all secured on some property or other, so they knew what risk they were taking. Some may be alright having saved previously and now sitting it out waiting until the good times come back.

[Zippy Monster]

I assume these large loans are all secured on some property or other, so they knew what risk they were taking.

No, that's only been the case in the last few months or so for those starting out.

Most people facing unemployment after the end of the course, and consequent financial troubles, were people who signed up in good faith during the employment boom when the loan was unsecured. I was one of them.

[spudgunjon]

What would concern me most if I were a recent/soon to be CTC Wings graduate is the continuing and ongoing recruitment for the ATP scheme, which if we believe what we are told by CTC, places cadets (upon completion of the 3 weekly run AQC) into the same holding pool of pilots they themselves are in/can expect to enter. It would equally concern me if I were someone recently completing or about to undertake the ATP scheme (for £6.5k) as to whether or not I am merely helping window dress CTC's figures through this torrid time in the industry. I'd hasten to add that the ATP scheme which had been closed throughout the majority of 2008 due to being oversubscribed to for the anticipated and current market needs, was bizarrely reopened at the beginning of 2009 - you know that famous hotbed year of airline recruitment we currently find ourselves in :bored:

The official line I was told by a well briefed CTC representative was that the airlines "specify their preference" when approaching CTC as to whether or not they want Wings/ATP cadets or indeed a mixture. My personal conclusion is that those of us who qualified/are qualifying in the time period from Jun 2008-End of 2011 will need to work like no other generation in order to avoid becoming a part of the forgotten era of pilot training/recruitment.

Make no mistake CTC has been fantastic. It is very close to the point of no return in terms of being in real danger of degenerating into the pilot factory conveyor belt that both Cabair and OAA have, wherein its one intangible USP -its reputation- will be irrevocably tarnished.

Isn't it integrated vs modular time again???:ok:

[Cirrus_Clouds]

(Zippy Monster).......... Speechless! The bit of information I didn't know.

That is a vast amount of money to get unsecured. I hope those monthly payments aren't too high and it's spread over many years. I imagine at the time, the potential of a flying job with a good salary was high, so proberly seemed ok. I've heard of a few just the other day who are 24 and 27 and have paid off most of their debt having graduated through CTC. They obviously got jobs before the bubble burst.


Isn't it integrated vs modular time again???


lol, ask this question again in at least 1-4yrs time when the good times come back. :ok: Each has it's own benefits and disadvantages, question is, what's better for people in times like now - I think we know the answer, play safe and least risk.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I know that many people are unaware that until the credit crunch HSBC was doling out £80,000 loans to CTC cadets secured against nothing. Add in student loans and a bit on a credit card or car loan and I've met plenty you owe 6 figures secured against nothing more than their Class One medical...

Its a hell of a hole to clamber out of to finally be worse nothing again. :ugh:


Then you start saving for a house.. :ooh:


WWW

[davepearsall]

WOW!

I didn't realise HSBC we dishing out that much with or without security!

Immoral doesn't do it justice!

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I know that many people are unaware that until the credit crunch HSBC was doling out £80,000 loans to CTC cadets secured against nothing

And it's this type of action of the past that has caused the problems we have now!!

The horse has bolted, escaped and action is being taken after the event rather than protecting things to start off with - well this will limit pilot training in the future, only being available to those who can afford it.

[Zippy Monster]

And therein lies the problem. The profession will be accessible only to those who have access to money, rather than those with talent. Flight schools, who once were able to select according to ability, may have to shift their criteria in favour of those with the money in order to stay in business. Is that what we want?

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I have a gut feeling that in the long run, the changes which are taking place in the banks, will reassure the banks that people can actually afford things with minimal risk, will result in more sponsorships coming about - but that will be once companies become healthy in themselves again and also a demand.

I think that this is heading towards having both money and ability (but hasn't this always been the case; just harder to get now). Only having one won't get you too far.

[Ollie23]

Flight schools, who once were able to select according to ability

Oh please, I'd hardly say you ever had to be "talented" to pass flying school selection tests (well I can only speak for CTC & Oxford). Their only real functon is to give naive wannbes the impression that they are in some way special and as such should hand over their cash without delay.

[One9iner]

Ollie23
Based on 2007 figures, CTC received over 4000 applications to the Wings programme.

147 places were granted.

[hollingworthp]

Why let facts get in the way of an opinion?

[Ollie23]

Based on 2007 figures, CTC received over 4000 applications to the Wings programme.

147 places were granted.

Indeed. I don't doubt it clears out the complete clowns (and there are many many of them based on people i've come accoss at various selection days) although somehow I don't think this is the primary purpose....

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

one9iner,

In the main they only take that number because that's all they can squeeze on the course in any one year with the infrastructure they have. And yes it gets rid of the clowns, of course it does, but anyone who puts the work in on the studying front and has reasonable hand/eye co-ordination shouldn't have too many issues with selection.

WBV

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

147 in 2007?

What about 2008 and now 2009? Hamilton has been expanded since 2007 so they've got more capacity to generate a return on.

How many's in the hold pool today and how many new swimmers will there be by next April when there may be some summer work experience available? Whose going to get the work experience? The new boys or the ones who got it this year again?

Lots of questions someone should ask at a recruitment day perhaps.



WWW

[One9iner]

At present they're taking 24 cadets every 2 months.

Nov CP79
Jan CP80
Mar CP81
etc...

That doesn't seem to be a huge (if at all) increase to 07.

[sharpclassic]

and how many people who started in '07 are in full time jobs?

[akindofmagic]

Are all of these people taking out secured loans? Astonishing if that's the case.

[Air_One]

Dont forget CTC also offer places on their ICP course to unsuccesful wings candidates. So I dont think it as hard to get accepted on a course as they make out.

I failed selection for the wings course in early 2008 - but was then offered an ICP place (which, in retrospect, I luckily turned down). Though I get the feeling most unsuccesful Wings candidates are offered ICP places ?

The ICP option is (in their words) self funded and you dont do a type rating at end of it. CTC also dont help with finding you a job after the course, no matter how well you do in the exams.

CTC Flight Training Selection & Assessment (http://www.ctcwings.com/europe/icp/selection.asp)

[socloss]

OK to answer some of your Qs: Take it from me these figures are REAL as I am one of them:

Those who started January 2007 - April 2007 all but 1 got Easyjet summer contracts. Most have finished their 6 months now and have been offered Flexicrew for the winter with a probable contract next summer. Maybe this will go permanent, who knows?

This leaves 13 courses that have now finished training or are literally about to. Average per course is at least 12 but let's be optimistic and say 13 x 12 = 156 cadets in the hold pool. It should also be noted that there are around 8 ATP TR'd guys waiting placement ahead of cadets. This is as we speak so next year, of course the figures will be vastly larger........

socloss

[corporate_pilot]

The only way the iCP cadets get a job via CTC is if they are lucky enough to make it through to the ATP scheme at the end of it...and even at the end of that they will always be 2nd choice to a long list of existing wing cadets, which makes me wonder why anybody would want to go through that route in the first intance. Paying 70-75k just for a CPL/IR.

[sharpclassic]

socloss,

Summer contracts/flexiwings is b*llocks. It's not a proper job. You can't plan your life on a temp contract. You can't get a mortgage on a temp contract. Don't be fooled into thinking that a temp summer contract is a good thing.

What counts are full time employment contracts.

So, once, again, how many cadets who started in 2007 are on full time contracts?

[socloss]

If we are talking full time permanent contracts the answer would be sweet FA from 2007. Last course to be offered that is the guys who started in December 2006 and thats only 4 of them I believe with Thomas Cook.

Bankruptcy is def an option.......

socloss

[One9iner]

sharpclassic.... Exactly when did socloss claim the situation was ideal? :ugh:

[TheBeak]

The ICP option is (in their words) self funded and you dont do a type rating at end of it.

As opposed to the Wings programme which is self funded, secured and you don't get a TR at the end of it by the looks of things. Wow, you'd better put big pressure on yourself to make 'the grade'! DO NOT BELIEVE THE HYPE.:ugh:

Summer contracts/flexiwings is b*llocks. It's not a proper job. You can't plan your life on a temp contract. You can't get a mortgage on a temp contract. Don't be fooled into thinking that a temp summer contract is a good thing.


And that is if you are lucky, but is exactly the point. It is amazing how that stuff really doesn't matter before pilot training.

[sharpclassic]

One9iner,

I wasn't making a point to solocross, he/she seems aware of the problems building.

My point is that all you new starters seem to be happy to be one of 12 starting every month (the same unsustainable figure as 2007), accepting the fact that there is no chance of a permanent contract at the end, just flexiwings for an undetermined period of time.

One question to you... where do you see yourself 10 years from now?

[Zippy Monster]

One9iner, sharpclassic asked a simple question:

and how many people who started in '07 are in full time jobs

Why the banging-head emoticon? Socloss's first answer talked about FlexiCrew placements, not permanent full-time employment. 'Ideal' or not doesn't come into it - the fact is that virtually nobody who started the course from 2007 onwards has found permanent, full-time employment.

In addition, I have it on good authority that those who have just finished their initial 6 months plus a bit of FlexiCrew time on the 737 with EZY, and are now out of the game for the winter, have just been told there might not be any work for them next summer. And because of FlexiCrew, they have no comeback - if the airline simply decides it doesn't want them, then that's that.

[one post only!]

Yeah but CTC will probably just rate them on the A320 so that when things pick up in the next 12 months and all the airlines start hiring again they will be given a permanent contract on the 320 late next year.

[TheBeak]

Are you joking? In the unlikely event that A320 positions arise I'd imagine they'd be desperately offered to, and be desperately received by waiting swimmers in the over flowing hold pool.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

I think one post only had his tongue firmly in cheek :}

wbv

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If things pick up in the next 12 months and all the airlines start hiring again then - I agree - there will not much of a problem.

However.

The opposite of this is going to happen.


Unemployment is the US just breached 10%. A barrier not broken since before WW2. The UK is lagging in time but headed in the same direction. Airline frequently only go bust a year or more after the recession ends. Ours, at 18 months the longest since WW2 hasn't even ended yet.

For compelling anecdotal evidence look at BA losing money for two years running for the first time ever. Or easyJet closing, or shrinking, UK bases to move the aircraft and jobs abroad. Or BMIBaby who are reducing their total fleet from 17 to 12 and making redundant over 50 pilots most of whom would have over 10,000 jet hours. There are ominous rumblings from the newly merged Charter airlines who are carrying more pilots than they need and groaning under the strain with no sight of a 787 relief flight.

As counterbalance its fair to say that things are fair to middling at FlyBe.


If your planning on a recovery in airline recruitment in the next 12 months then you'd better change the plan. Quickly.


WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh, yes, I think he probably did.

<embarrassed cough>


WWW

[TheBeak]

In order for CTC to have any of the trainees currently waiting in the holdpool ready for their summer job they will need to have them ready by April/May 2010. There is an 8 week lead time for the TR so we will either hear stories of TRs by/ before end of Feb or CTC are going to face some even tougher scrutiny.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Correction to my last post about historic unemployment in the US. Having double checked my off the cuff remarks I found that the previous postwar high was 10.8 percent in December 1982.

If the US does go past this (only another 0.6% required) then you're back to 1929 and the Great Depression for a bigger number.


WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I *think* easyJets net increase in fleet size for next year is 7. Assuming a ratio of 5 crews per aircraft this means 35 new Commands for current FO's and therefore 35 new jobs for FO's to join. Allowing for a few leavers/medical losers then an annual demand of around 40 cadets might be about right.

Other than Ryanair (33k SSTR) or possibly FlyBe I don't think there's any other expansion plans in the UK amongst major airlines for 2010.


Middle or Far East, Sir?


WWW


(There, back on topic)

[RoyHudd]

A small note of consolation, WWW. There is a reasonable retirement bulge from 2010 in the mainline charter carriers, and no doubt other operators in Europe too. Jobs may not be advertised but there will be a modicum of positions for experienced bods.

Not good though, I'm afraid. Hanging onto mine for the moment.

[cjd_a320]

WWW: Correction to my last post about historic unemployment in the US. Having double checked my off the cuff remarks I found that the previous postwar high was 10.8 percent in December 1982.

If the US does go past this (only another 0.6% required) then you're back to 1929 and the Great Depression for a bigger number.

The figures have been under estimated.
Their model could not handle the early part of the year.

:Bloomberg Annual Revisions
The Labor Department today also published its preliminary estimate for the annual benchmark revisions to payrolls that will be issued in February (2010). They showed the economy may have lost an additional 824,000 jobs in the 12 months ended March 2009.

The backward revision comes February 2010 & expect that 824K to also be revised up....

[One9iner]

Being in the UK, my eyes are more on UK unemployment figures.

BBC NEWS | Business | Rise in UK unemployment slowing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8353933.stm)

Which are still increasing granted! But at the slowest rate for over 18 months... Nearing the top of the parabolic curve lets hope! Although I doubt a freefall to normality is within seconds just yet.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Seasonal hiring for Christmas always flatters the Oct/Nov employment figures.


We're 15 months behind the US. People over there, then, were saying unemployment was peaking. It wasn't. It isn't.


Public sector job losses don't even start properly until financial year 10 in April next year...



WWW

[DooblerChina]

There is a reasonable retirement bulge from 2010 in the mainline charter carriers

Sorry, not in TOM. In fact we are still trying to lose another 10%

DC

[EZYramper]

I *think* easyJets net increase in fleet size for next year is 7. Assuming a ratio of 5 crews per aircraft this means 35 new Commands for current FO's and therefore 35 new jobs for FO's to join. Allowing for a few leavers/medical losers then an annual demand of around 40 cadets might be about right.

Would that not make 70 new FO places?

You would need 35 to replace the upgrades, plus 35 for the new aircraft?

[ba038]

Plus the ones who lose their medical……ill say around 75….

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

35 full time jobs and 35 summer work experience.

WWW

[veetwo]

WWW

Do you really still believe easyjet are in the business of handing out full time contracts at all? My view is that they are looking to turn CTC in to a brookfield operation. In other words, develop the flexicrew scheme further so that CTC are actually employing the cadets themselves as a standalone agency.

I'm having a hard time seeing the company giving out any permanent FO contracts anytime soon.

V2

[EK4457]

V2, must agree,

They have absolutely NO incentive to hand out any full time contracts. The benefits of only employing 'flexi-crew' * are obvious.

This will also benefit CTC as the trickle of work gets highly diluted and rationed out to a greater number of cadets massaging their impressive 'employment' stats.

I hope I'm dead wrong of course, because we're all in this ****e together.

* Is it called flexi crew because cadets need to be flexible enough to bend over whilst having large amounts of cash pulled through their nose?

[BigNumber]

I would concur that CTC Flexi Crew will become another BRK.

The flexi crew hours will dilute with each wave of advance from the eager wannabe army. The hours and pay will be incrementally driven down.

I can't imagine that it will be possible to secure a mortgage, so lets hope Mums not 'let out' my bedroom!

[veetwo]

I suppose the real question is, how bad does it have to be before people stop doing professional pilot training? Just how terrible would it have to be? First 6 months without pay at all?

I suspect the rot will only stop when it becomes completely untenable to even consider being a pilot as a financially viable option...and thus people are unable to secure the finance.

V2

[Air_One]

Apparently almost 24 new cadets doing the course this month.

Format changed - so first 6 months of course spent doing only the exams in UK. If your being cynical this would save CTC money - as cadets only fly over to NZ once.
And also for the next 6 months all new cadets will be in ground school.

[rod_1986]

6 months in ground school?!? Seriously?

Back in the day, a fortnight at Bristol was all we needed... (plus a token amount of self study whilst in NZ...) :}

[hollingworthp]

6 months ground-school at the start of the course is how OAA have operated for quite some time

[air_wolf]

6 months of total misery by the sounds of it.

still cant believe ctc are filling courses. where are people getting the money from?

guessing the hold pool must be huge by now. 200? still people from cp38 who don't have full time jobs.

[Zippy Monster]

If your being cynical this would save CTC money - as cadets only fly over to NZ once.I wouldn't be so sure - if it's 24 people every 2 months now and the phase is 6 months, then soon that's 72 people at a time they have to sort out accommodation for down on the south coast (remember - if you'd been in NZ, your accommodation there would have been included.)

Unless, of course, they've gone down the OAA route and accommodation is not included in this part of the course, which is going to make it even more expensive. Six months' rent in the south of England - not cheap. Can anyone starting out with the programme enlighten us on this? Maybe this is what some of the recent £9k price rise goes towards.

[timotei]

The accommodation is included, in leased houses in the Southampton area, but there is no transport provided and apparently the houses are not near any public transport to get to the Nursling Centre for the ground school phase :ok:

[Zippy Monster]

Virtually identical to the setup for the Bournemouth phase then. At least the houses don't cost extra above the given course price - that's good to know.

[zk-pontius]

"I *think* easyJets net increase in fleet size for next year is 7. Assuming a ratio of 5 crews per aircraft this means 35 new Commands for current FO's and therefore 35 new jobs for FO's to join. Allowing for a few leavers/medical losers then an annual demand of around 40 cadets might be about right"

There are already 16 type rated pilots ready to go when EZY gives the nod - so they will be first in the queue leaving maybe 16 new places for the rest of the hold pool

[TheBeak]

Why just another 16? And I think you'll find their are an awful lot more than 16 TRd guys and girls in their holdpool. Ezyrampers point is a very good one. Easy will have to do a mix of internal upgrades and contract captains and that will leave a void in the FO ranks. I don't think 70 places are on the cards but maybe 50. Easyjet will keep their FO intakes to their bare minimum, they will spread things as thinly as possible but with an increase of 7 aircraft for the year, taking just over 30 pilots would leave them under crewed.

[blackred1443]

contract captains......i certainly hope not beak

we have very strongly voted no to that due to 300 f/os in the command holdpool
so maybe even more f/o slots.though with the way ezy have approach f/o recruitment it will be flexi crew for a while yet me thinks

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Summer flexicrew could easily be supplemented to winter flexicrew and then a permanent position might only start at 500hrs, 1,000hrs, unfrozen ATPL...

I don' know what's going to happen. I do know that there are going to be far too many people in the CTC pool than there will be pleasing placements for them. I suspect those swimming for some time will go bankrupt and that a trickle could easily turn into a flood.

*Then* wait 18 months, borrow £33k from Mum & Dad and go to Ryanair for 6 more momths earning not much and then, hey presto, discharge your 2yr bankruptcy order and immediately become a Brookfield Contractor on £3,000 a month (cross your fingers for 900hrs per annum mind) and you only owe £33,000 to your parents and nothing to HSBC!

I should set up a consultancy for this..


WWW

[EZYramper]

12 ATP and 6 Wings Cadets are already type rated so they will be the first to leave the pool, if and when recruitment happens...

[jb5000]

Really? You have it on excellent authority that easyJet want more low hours cadets to fill ALL of their vacancies?

[R T Jones]

"12 ATP and 6 Wings Cadets are already type rated so they will be the first to leave the pool, if and when recruitment happens... "

Surely it is a matter of when rather than if....I'm sure easyjet will take as many cadets as possible, simply because of cost.. CTC's cadet product has proven to be of a high standard and just also happens to be fairly cheap. I believe the number of 18 type rated guys is fairly accurate, so for them to take 50 would reduce the cadet hold-pool by approx 30.

[socloss]

Well Easy are contracted to take 40 a year from CTC, assuming they recruit. I'm not sure how much weight this has though and I for one will be extremely relieved when the CTC-EasyJet contract is re-signed in December........:D

[TheBeak]

So they are renewing the contract in a month? It will be disastrous for them if they don't.

and just also happens to be fairly cheap

It doesn't 'happen' to be, it is engineered to be.

[BigNumber]

Why would EZY re-new the CTC contract in December when our friends at ATP can provide as many fare paying F/O's as required?

ATP Boys and Girls would appear to provide a valuable source of income and there is not the slightest contractual hint of a commitment.

Let them pay and fly, until their credit runs out, offer them a few more hours for free beyond the 150hrs if required. Then 'reload' with the next eager cheque book waving kids. Fabulous!

Times are very hard and, if people are willing to pay to work, the accountants must be keen? ATP must be attractive to EZY.

[akindofmagic]

As I understand it, the EZY training department has said "never again" when it comes to ATP (Airline Training Partnership) "cadets".

[BigNumber]

Do you really think the relative sensibilities of the 'trainers' is in the scan of the accountants?

ATP boy's and girls are willing to pay EZY to receive training. How ace is that!

[BigNumber]

Indeed, I am sure that the vast majority of ATP 'punters' are every bit as capable as CTC Cadets.

If ATP became the future sole provider of F/O's to EZY then guess where all the 'would be' CTC Flexicrrew might be found.

The quality of applicant is the same but, importantly, the revenue stream is better.

[zk-pontius]

The type rated ATPs in the hold pool are not the same as those who have paid to fly - they are the guys who got through the CTC selection to do MCC and then went on to do the TR almost a year later - I don't think the deal is quite the same now for new ATPs going down that route as they have been told they will only be used if the hold pool empties - there is a difference between ATP and WingsATP.
The thought of rich kids paying to work on any scheme is pretty sickening to anyone out there (and there are a fair number) who has borrowed the money in good faith and ended up without a way to pay it back - I agree that we can expect to see a flood of cadets declaring bankruptcy in the next year - bit dire though isn't it!

[akindofmagic]

I'm sure someone like WWW or one of the other current EZY people can confirm, but I am almost sure ATP (Airline Training Partnership) will not be used by easyJet again. Someone else who has the full story can fill in the details if they have the time and/or inclination.

[one post only!]

This summer no cadets were taken back on direct from ATP. A handful from last year were taken back on, on summer contracts but this was via the ctc flexi scheme so I doubt future recruitment will come from ATP. The lastest RUMOUR however is that ezy have signed a contract with Brookfield!! If this is true (and after our CEO's latest email which mentioned a requirement for a big increase in flexibility in crew) then it is a worrying development. I hope for all the CTC cadets this isn't true. Actually for all of us I hope this isn't true.

[zk-pontius]

I have heard the same rumour about Brookfield - not sure how CTC will be able to convince someone who already owes £60k to borrow another £30k! That is mad!

[Zippy Monster]

I'm not sure it would happen that way...

The way I see it is that easyJet want more flexibility with their crew contracts to keep the costs down. If it were to happen - it's only a rumour at this stage and it's only appeared today, so nobody really knows - I would envisage people coming out of CTC with a type rating and then going on to a Brookfield contract. At Ryanair, Ryanair do the type rating and charge £30k for it and then send the guy on to Brookfield for their contract. Hopefully, the CTC cadet would still have the TR included in the course price already paid and there would be no need for that expensive middle step.

I really, REALLY hope there is no truth in it.

[Bambe]

That sounds horrible but that would make sense. Why would EZY carry on paying for cadets where Ryanair gets money from hiring them.
For those thinking of CTC, please don't get yoursel involved now, wait at least 6 months simply to see what happens to those currently in the holding pool.
If now sounds like a good time to start a training, I would'nt rush into CTC until I see if cadets have to pay for their TR.
My 2 cents? I am convinced Brookfield (or any similar kind of bulls:mad:t ) will be the normal way into the industry.
The latest email from the management couldn't be clearer. The future looks bright on the long term (:D) but the down side is that cadets will have to contribute through their TR:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:.... I personnaly read : BRING US ANOTHER 30K.

Zk-pontius, some people are simply desperate about flying a jet. I personnaly think that if cadets are to pay for their TR, CTC will provide them with a funding solution (such as the old unsecured HSBC) as it is in their own interest to get as many cadets as possible online.

Funding is a secondary problem, the main one being that the industry is turning mad. A pilot shouldn't pay for a TR.

[TheBeak]

For those thinking of CTC, please don't get yoursel involved now, wait at least 6 months simply to see what happens to those currently in the holding pool.


As I have said a hundred times on this thread. Listen to it and do it. Ever thought 'if only I knew then what I know now'?

Why would EZY carry on paying for cadets where Ryanair gets money from hiring them.


Exactly and why do you think I go on about the Ryanair scheme? This is the thing about airborne parasites, they are highly contageous.

If this is true I'd like to say the scheme is finished - it wont be for everyone. It will be for the poor, selected people who represent the tiny 1-2% in the training population who bothered to get filtered and not take the easy option. It wont be for the exponentially evoloving breed of thick :mad: that seem to buck the financial crisis and push on regardless.

If this is true, I'd expect to hear nothing from CTC for a while. If it's not true then expect the rumour to be squashed by the end of today. Get it in no uncertain terms in writing. (And saying CTC weren't aware of the rumour is rubbish - they'll certainly know about it now). I'd strongly recommend someone asks them themselves and if they could be so kind, report back.

I'd imagine there are some tight little sphincters around the country this morning. It's not nice having the goal posts moved after you have a struck a sweet kick is it?

[FrenchScotPilot]

The "attractive" thing about CTC scheme was that the TR was not to be paid ... upfront at least. The ridiculous "allowance" during TR (£500/month) and Line Training (£1k/month) was almost like paying for it but not quite.

So IF the rumour turns out to be true, what does it entails for non rated pilots in the pool ? They'd have to pay CTC for the rating and then sign up a contract with Brookfield to work as contractors for EZY. I've heard of Brookfield contracts at Ryanair but I don't know the ins and outs. How does it compare to CTC Flexicrew ? Rates, roster...

PS: I hate the road the industry is taking ie contractors & total lack of security / stability but at the moment I am trying to "picture" what the situation would look like...

FSP

[Herc708]

Remember that once you are Line Training, and have been 'released' (from the Safety Pilot), you are now earning money for Easyjet (or Ryanair or any other 'Pay as you Go' airline. You are taking work away from an experienced pilot for the sake of profit for the airline

This is an abuse of a privilege provided by the regulatory bodies to allow the continuing training of professional pilots. It is not meant to be a revenue earner for an airline and the CAA / IAA / EASA should stop it

[Throttle to Bottle]

As FrenchScotPilot says, through the CTC scheme you already somewhat pay for your TR by earning less for 8 months (2 monhts training and 6 months initial placement), not even mentioning being unpaid if there is a period between training and line training.

Granted that doesn't sum up to £30k but if its already the accepted terms, then any suggestion that CTC cadets have to contribute more towards their TR means that they will be edged ever closer to that £30k marvel.

Anyone who gets word from CTC/Easy/Brookfield please post asap, I'm sure many people are watching this forum very anxious about their futures

[TheBeak]

Every minute this 'rumour' isn't squashed makes the rumour become more real. I for one am very interested to hear the truth. I can see why it would and wouldn't be true.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The *rumour* is that easyJet and Brookfield have done a deal of some sort for something.

I'm not privy to any information. I don't know anything. I merely pass on a rumour which is now running wild within the company.



Stepping aside from that. Any sensible Wannabe would look back and note that where Ryanair lead, (booking fees, luggage fees, check in fees, SSTR's etc) other airline seem to follow.

As long as there is a supply of idiots willing to put £33,000 into Michael O Learys bulging bank account for the chance to fly his passengers around on whatever terms he thought appropriate - other airline managers are under pressure from investors to do the same.

The CAA don't give a toss.

There is nothing to keep back the wolves from the doors.


WWW

[One9iner]

Didn't a senior procurement manager / director join easy from ryanair?

A continued flexi deal between easy & ctc is on the cards I'm sure, at least until market conditions improve to a situation of more like 2004/5/6 , but I would hope CTC wings cadets wouldn't have to source more funding than what is already required to complete a TR.

[sharpclassic]

Well, it's going on in other industries...

New inquiry into exploitation of the work-for-free interns | Money | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/jul/31/mps-graduate-interns-pay)

So why don't they investigate ours aswell?

[sharpclassic]

And what's this I hear about CTC Flexiwings people being sent to sandbag for easyJet type ratings and not being paid for it?

[One9iner]

sandbag?..............

[RoyHudd]

OneNiner--not a pilot

[FANS]

If you were EZY management, you'd make exactly the same decision to go down the flexi route; it could give you a decent bonus next year!


It's working fine for Ryanair, they still get plenty of applicants, and they even make a nice profit with each new pilot recruited. Genius. EZY have no choice but to follow the clear market leader. They've simply got to go down flexi-crew at the very least (and try getting a mortgage/loan on the back of that).

And yet. And yet. Something does not quite feel right. Could this be the start of one of those chain of events we learn about

[One9iner]

FANS, I agree.

As they say, no graph is one directional; however it seems in this case - in terms of employment rights, pay, futures, T&C's etc... - the lowco route into the career for a newbie, the graph seems one directional at present.

However, in the true sense of my original statement, if the flexi/contract deal is the way into the industry for the next few years, the model will surely have to change to force the graph upwards.

I pose a question (and don't get me wrong, I would never defend such practices by Brookfield which are so detrimental for employees) where does everyone see the business model of the industry in 5 years?

I can't see a model of the industry working long term; whereby the whole industry is in two levels.

Level 1. A newbie gains an IR, fATPL, and then works as a self ltd company. With no full time job on the horizon.
Level 2. Pilots who unfroze their license way before the flexi world, work for airlines and are promoted through the system. To retire at 65.

At some point, the number of pilots who only acheive flexi flying hours per year will dominate the pilot pool - from age 20-65. Then airlines will only have low houred guys of all ages lacking any real experience, in the pot to pick for captains.

The model isn't sustainable. I don't doubt, the flexi model will be with us for a while yet. But terms and numbers, and seniority methods will HAVE to change.

(Long term . I know!)

[londonmet]

Cadets at the end of this scheme are considering going bankrupt.

Why would people STILL want to part with their money? The Flexi crew scheme is bad for our industry as it prevents current F/O's gaining promotion and also prevents out of work EXPERIENCED pilots gaining jobs. It's a disgrace.

[Geetea]

If your job was to save your company money then I am sure you would go down the same or a similar route, I don't like whats going on but end of the day a business man cares only about money...and I don't blame him!!

[sharpclassic]

I think what LondonMet's point is, why are people CONTINUING to spend such STUPID amounts of money when all they have to look forward to at the end of training is at best years of temporary work struggling to pay back their loan and at worst declaring bankruptcy.

Simple as that.

[londonmet]

Absolutely that is my point. There will not be any perm jobs in the UK for a good few years. In the time period between the start of the "recruitment ban" and that point in the future more and more pilots will have been churned out of various schools so you'll be competing against them.

Not fun.

L Met

[Tiger_ Moth]

Londonmet

Cadets at the end of this scheme are considering going bankrupt.

Hahaha, that implies we have a choice!

[Delta-Bravo]

Hi, I'm attending presentation by CTC soon and wondered if anyone had any good questions for me to put to them?

Personally I'm interested on what they have to say about why I should join the wings program at the moment with the current climate, also be interesting to see their response to the Easyjet-Brookfield rumours that have been around.

Delta-Bravo

[Mintflavour]

Just read all of the comments above and put it to CTC. There are questions that us in the hold pool don't even get answered. Im fed up with it.

Try asking how many people currently in the pool and how long do they think it will be before they are all given PERMANENT, SECURE jobs with CAREER development rather than this crazy flexi crew system where nobody can plan there lives.

[sharpclassic]

Minflavour, to that the answer will or, more to the point, SHOULD be....

"Well, so long as people like you keep paying us £70,000 to get on the course, never".

Ask them why there is no trust in management from cadets on the course and in the hold pool.

Let us know what they say ;-)

[Asianberry]

Can someone please explain me what the Security Bond is? and do I have to pay the whole £69000 at one go?:confused:

[BigNumber]

And there, gentlemen, we have it!

~Yet another 20 year old ready to spend! This part of the industry is over. Fact.

BN

[akindofmagic]

The "security bond" is a very large amount of money that you pay to CTC to train you to get your CPL/IR + ATPL exam credits MCC.
Simples.

[sharpclassic]

Can someone please explain if Asianberry has read the last few posts?

[One9iner]

Asianberry... payments are made in two section. The first payment is due month 1 - and then there is a 5/6 month delay until the next payment is due.

As follows

Installment:
1- £10,700 month 1
2 - £5,300 month 7
3. - £5,300 month 8
4 - £5,300 month 9

etc....

[boquera]

got my 2nd (possibly 3rd) email asking me if i want to go down and do my reapplication for the wings cadet program.........and pay for the privelage!

how short on applicants are they? how full are the last few courses that have gone ahead?

[cjd_a320]

I'd be asking whats CTC Aviation Group, gulf countries (GGC's) financial funding exposure before parting with any cash.

( HSBC have around $16 billon of loans/advances for some context)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You know I really should make the effort to go and meet this Lee Woodward fellow.

In my minds eye it would be a re-run of when Luke confronts Darth and I end up cutting off his arm.. Although its not really his fault that he became consumed by the Dark Side of flying training sales targets. Poor chap.

WWW

[kwb911]

WWW - Yoda??

[socloss]

iFlyPilot,

Without meaning to sound rude but why didnt you ask about the hold pool then as thats one of the most critical things to you starting training, isn't it?

I'm in the pool at the moment, currently doggy paddling in circles with HSBC hunting me down! Things are seriously bad right now, to state the obvious, so I would really consider undertaking any pilot training at the moment, at least until there is a significant improvement in the industry, both jobs and Ts & Cs.

I expect you were sold the "now is the best time to start training" which I could go along with as what Im hearing is that 2011 is the year that recruitment will really pick up. However, noone knows this and more importantly, with CTC (to their credit) they operate a strict hold pool so you will still have to wait your turn in the pool. Things to consider my friend.......:rolleyes:

[zk-pontius]

In my minds eye it would be a re-run of when Luke confronts Darth and I end up cutting off his arm LOL WWW - please please post that on You Tube if you do go and meet him - it would give us all something to laugh about!

New AQC courses running in January - drip feeding a bit of hope to cadets so they carry on paying their loans back?!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

WWW - Yoda??


Short - tick

Hairy - tick

Speaks in funny accent... OMG! The Master I am! Hmmm.


WWW :}

[Throttle to Bottle]

AQC courses have nothing to do with placement unfortunately. There are people I know who did an AQC a year ago and are still in the hold pool.

Unfortunately with HSBC it is black and white, you are paying them or you're not. They are not interested in how far along you are with your training, your position in the pool or anyone talking about green shoots of bull:mad:.

2011 may be a line in the sand for recruitment but by then there will be a huge queue by then and 'normal' flow of cadets to the RHS won't be with us for a while!

[socloss]

WWW you're a moderator on here......

On a lighter note I was wondering when Part 3 of the CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread will be starting?!

May I suggest that when the next cadet gets placed we celebrate with this new venture?! Could be a while............:ugh:

[sharpclassic]

Green shoots?

Isn't that the phrase that estate agents are using?

[Delta-Bravo]

I did ask them about the hold pool in that presentation afterwards and LW said that at the moment they have 112 pilots in their hold pool, but he expected this to be reduced soon and they are due to make an announcement soon regarding this. He wouldnt say what he was refering to though.

Anyone have any ideas what he may have been on about? Hopefully this maybe finally a bit of good news for those in the hold pool!

[Zippy Monster]

Lee said that the green shoots of recovery were well on their way and that by this time next year things would be back to normal...

:yuk: Unbelievable.

That'll be the green shoots of recovery that have just led to BMI announcing to their staff that 600 job cuts are on the way, Aer Lingus in massive financial strife, BA still needing redundancies, etc; the eurozone only just starting to pull tentatively out of recession and Britain still being in it. The list goes on.

On the subject of the hold pool... yep, I imagine it should be reduced soon... when next season's bunch of summer-contract intake are removed and sent off for their 6-month work experience.

There are still an average of 12 cadets per month going through the course. Even if all 112 are shifted (and how likely do you think this is given the current climate?) common logic dictates there will be around 140 more by this time next year.

Remember that will still be 2010 - not yet 2011, which for some reason everyone has suddenly started assume will be the point at which the demand for new pilots surges. I'm still yet to hear any clear evidence pointing to that - "my mum's cousin's son-in-law's stepdad's mate's mate's dog said things will be better in 2011" doesn't really count. You'd need a crystal ball to work out when things are going to be back to pre-recession levels, and since when was CTC's crystal ball bigger than anyone else's?

I'm sure the presentation was as slick and smooth as ever and a lot of people were left drooling at the prospect of becoming part of the CTC 'family'. But this bit concerns me:

I was in a room full of students who thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and was already creating a bit of tension through asking some "off-topic" questions.

A bit of tension? Can you elaborate on that a bit? If they're dodging or getting uncomfortable about answering direct, relevant questions about something in which they're asking you to invest upwards of £75k, I would be asking myself the question why. Exactly what did you ask them?

As I've said elsewhere, without a doubt it's a great course and if you must insist on spending a fortune on a course like this at the moment then go to CTC and enjoy it; but honestly, anyone thinking of blowing nearly six figures on any sort of fATPL training right at this moment needs a visit from the men in white coats.

[TheBeak]

So if he really did say:

he expected this to be reduced soon and they are due to make an announcement soon regarding this.

to you and 'they' do not say it soon YOU will know not join up with this organisation. There is your measuring stick - use it. But don't jump the gun, give them until End of January.

Well done for asking questions, that's one of the ways we learn. Others, in fact most, will learn the much harder more expensive way.

[Bambe]

Hello guys! Does anyone know when the CTC-easyjet contract termintates? I thought it was summer 2011 but according to some cadets here, it is about to be renewed in few weeks (maybe days).
If so, that could be THE big announcement

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

That's if it is renewed....brookfield ring any bells? Give it a few days and wait and see, hopefully they might renew with proper contracts. We live in hope...

WBV

[one post only!]

I agree with what CTC and socloss said about the industry picking* up in 2011. I would bet quite a bit of money on it. I think there will then be some hiring and a subsequent emptying* of the CTC hold pool. I think CTC are offering out some very honest and unbiased* information at the presentations.


*By pick up I mean that we currently have mass redundancies from many airlines so even one airline hiring 30 people permanently and 30 on temporary contracts will constitute a MASSIVE "pick up".

* Even a few people leaving the hold pool to return after 6 months constitutes an "emptying".

*(cough choke cough)

P.S I do now think the brookfield rumour may well have been put out there as part of the negotiation tactics. Oh you have heard we are signing with brookfield, oh you weren't supposed to know about that (wink wink), ok, so by how much are you going to reduce the cost of these cadets to keep the business.................

[One9iner]

During the selection day which I attended a few weeks back, we (6 of us) were given a presentation about CTC, the course, the industry etc...

In my opinion, the information presented, was an honest overlook of the industry, and there wasn't a great deal of 'shiny brochure' style sales pitches...

When we were asked if we had any questions, I raised the worry that the holding pool is bursting, and asked:

"Can you explain the way in which the pool is managed, if for example a cadet completes the course, and is taken on for a 6 month flexi contact with EZY, and is then laid off in the winter back to the pool - Does someone coming out of training in that time, have a higher place in the pool/queue, or does the cadet who has been laid off take priority when EZY/other partner airlines approach CTC for a new intake?"

The answer: "A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!

Obviosuly, due to the state of the industry at present, this "promise" is being stretched by factors outside of CTC's control.

I think it's important for anyone entering such a scheme, to be well informed, have a back up, have a plan B, C, D. I don't disagree that at the moment, some people who enter the system are doing so with rose tinted goggles, but as long as you research, understand the risks, and are prepared for the event of unemployment and mr bank manager ringing the door bell in 18 months, then one can make a well thought decision.

Questions that I've asked myself over the last 2 years,
Do I have equity in a property?
Do I have the education and experience to fall back on if I struggle to secure airline employment after training?
Do I have a back up?
Can I keep above the water if I'm paying back the loan/bond at £1000 a month without a permanent RHS job?

My answer to all of the above is yes; it's a risk I know, but it's one I've prepared myself for.

[jb5000]

"Can you explain the way in which the pool is managed, if for example a cadet completes the course, and is taken on for a 6 month flexi contact with EZY, and is then laid off in the winter back to the pool - Does someone coming out of training in that time, have a higher place in the pool/queue, or does the cadet who has been laid off take priority when EZY/other partner airlines approach CTC for a new intake?"

The answer: "A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!

You realise they never actually answered your question, don't you?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you are *lucky* and get offered some flying under flexi wings terms then what you will typically earn in a month is 12 days of pay paid at a flat day rate which gives you about £1,600 per month after tax.

Those that have the typical £70k loan for their CTC course have a monthly repayment very close to £1,100. Thus whilst working as a flexi wing you'll have £500 a month to live off. About £120 a week. £17 a day.

To cover food, accommodation, transport, mobile phone (essential for standby duties) and all other living expenses such as haircuts, toothbrushes and the all essential TV license.

If and when you're tossed back into the pool over the winter the bank still wants their £1,100 a month loan repayment so you'd better be applying for a double shift at the packing factory.

Same could happen next summer as well.


So even if you're one of the lucky pool swimmers to be offered a flexi wing opportunity life is still tougher than a pair of old boots.



WWW

[londonmet]

I have no idea why people keep applying to not only this scheme but also paying thousands to train. WWW's financial overview in the last post is spot on. Why do people do it? WHY? :ugh:

[SMOOTHFLIER]

"A cadet flying on a temporary contract never leaves the pool, until such time that the cadet is taken on a permanent contract, he/she will remain in the pool" I'd appreciate feedback from current CTC swimmers to verify that statement?!

this is untrue, cadets are replacing flexi crew pilots.
its simple really training captains need to train to get paid a traines salary.
If they dont take on new cadets to train they dont have any work.
easyjet prioritises training captains over new flexi crew first officers who aren't even employees anyway. plus they dont get paid flexi crew are more expensive.

my advice is to stay away until things pick up around 2012 do not fall for the trap when i come out of training it will all be better, because simply put noone really knows not even ctc with their "crystal ball"

You would have to be very irresponsible or just a moron to embark on training right now

[One9iner]

Chaps, name calling aside ("moron" ... really, this forum doesn't need anymore knives being thrown from tom to harry) I don't disagree with the sentiment about the huge risk, falling prospects of permanent employment, degrading T&C's, lack of light at the end of the tunnel etc...

I don't want to come across as a defender of CTC, or flexi-contracts, or EZY, but each individual is in an individual situation. A situation from where a decision is made. Someone nosediving into training now with no plan B is vunrelable.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Someone nosediving into training now with no plan B

Anyone going into training now is off their t:mad:ts.

Sorry mate, but it's a harsh truth. If you have another career then why leave it - now of all times? Just sit out the storm and see what sort of an industry emerges. Then decide if you want to be part of it.

[One9iner]

Fair comment. I don't disagree ...

[veetwo]

One9iner

I read your posts with interest. I can certainly sympathise with your position. Several years ago I was hunting around the big schools, FTE, CTC and Oxford trying to weigh the risks and the benefits of training. To be honest, even back then (late 2005) I felt that taking on the flight training loan and going for it was a huge huge risk - as did everyone else. It gave me sleepless nights. Not everyone was getting employment straight away (far from it), the threat of failing the CPL/IR or not being recommended by the school weighed heavily on most peoples minds. The holy grail of the first airline interview was still very elusive even during the relatively "bouyant" times of the recent past. Indeed, several of my course mates (course of 12) are still unemployed today, years after we finished training.

I make this point because that was then, those were the good times. Starting an integrated ATPL now and taking on that debt with the aviation industry in its current state of turmoil reallly is a terrible grass roots business decision. Strip out all the emotion involved (ie the burning desire to get flying as soon as humanly possible) and most level headed people would come to the same conclusion. Put the dream on hold for a while and do something else. Thats not the same as giving up on it. This is what my brother is doing who has recently graduated from uni and is desperate to fly. He's sensible enough to see that in 14 to 15 months time when he gets kicked out from an FTO with his licences and ratings, there will be no jobs going (or at least no jobs which provide an adaquate return on his investment of £70-80k). Its just my personal opinion, but I think paying that amount of money to train to only be rewarded with a holding pool number, or, if you're lucky, 6 months on £1000/month, is the most appalling deal. If that is the most you have to look forward to, how can now possibly be justified as the right time to start training?

On the flip side, it is easy for me to say this because I have a relatively secure RHS jet job. With that in mind I can tell you a couple of useful things. While it is a fantastic job (in terms of the actual flying)... after a couple of years of doing it, you really gotta believe that it does become a JOB. The adrenalin doesn't pump quite so readily anymore at 4am heading off to tenerife. The constant grind of shift work, missed social events and the company constantly trying to peck away at your terms and conditions becomes fatiguing in itself. I'm happy to do it because I'm being paid a good salary on a permanent contract. If I was on £1000/month with no benefits, working as hard as I work now, I would feel sick to my very core. I am paying back £1150/month and will be until around 2015...and even on a full SFO salary, its not like I'm throwing money around.

Ultimately as you quite rightly say, it is a personal decision. In many ways it is grossly unfair of me to sit here trying to dissuade you from chasing your dream as you have just as much right to it as I ever had. The only reason I chose to post is because I have met many many CTC cadets at work, all of whom are genuinely lovely guys and they are being totally screwed over. I fear the same fate awaits you.

Remember, just because you can "afford" to live as an unemployed pilot paying back the loan and stacking shelves...do you willingly want to put yourself in to that position? I just hope you realize that the 'Plan B' you speak of is effectively going to be your 'Plan A', in the short term at least.

Good luck whatever you decide.

V2

[TheBeak]

A great post from veetwo, heed the advice.

[One9iner]

V2, thankyou for your wise words and kind advice. Hopefully one day I'll work in a RHS with decent pay, good T&C's and positive future prospects; and plan B will be a distant memory. Maybe I'm too late for that dream to become real.

:ouch:

[Tiger_ Moth]

Try paying off £1300 a month when you're earning £0 a month because you've been laid off with limited prospects.

It's not a laugh a minute.

"Sick to the very core". Yep

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

VeeTwo - thanks for lending your weight to the fight.


Unfortunately, the Wannabe Zombie Army will pay no notice. Courses are full, roadshows are attended, enquiries are strong.

The law of supply and demand has been suspended. Demand has ceased, supply remains undiminished. You have to wonder how long it will take. I fear until the point where Airline Pilot is laughed at as being the same as Actor or Poet.


When they actually grasp the chalice they have quested for it will shatter to dust and choke them.

Unfortunately that chalice is my current job. :(


WWW

[One9iner]

"Fight"................

[BigNumber]

How can any of us fight?

The 'Wannabe Army' is willing to pay to do our jobs? Fact.

Their 'fat wallets' must appeal to an accountant like a Kebab to drunk! I just don't understand the wannabe logic.

[his3dmw]

As an ex Cadet currently on the flexicrew contract in Lyon, I just thought I should correct an earlier statement of the pay rates and current Loan repayments. It seems that these figures are often deflated and/or inflated respectively usually to paint a more negative picture.

Yes we are currently working 12 days a month, however where £1600 per month came from I do not know. The daily rate is £210 which equates to £2520 per month, which after tax is exactly £1899.69. On top of that is sector pay (mine for this month came to £603) which gives £2502 after tax.

Now then, the last time I checked, the loan repayments were £875/mth. (a bit more if you took the extra for living expenses.) £2502 - 875 = £1627 = £375/wk or £53/day.

I fully agree, this is a fair bit away than some peoples expectations, but it is doable, and theres a slight difference between this and the quoted £500 per month leftover.

I'm not going to comment over the rights or wrongs of the flexi-crew contract, or whether or not I agree with it. There are plenty of people putting the world to rights already. However, I am firm believer that people should be correctly informed rather than being blinded by one sided spin that I find is becoming increasingly common on these forums, often supported by unfounded non-facts.

[oates76]

Loan repayments seem to vary a lot, I took the full unsecured loan, plus living expense, plus foundation course (as did most on my course), I'm coming up to a year since my planned TR date, I'm still in the pool, and my loan repayments (which are deferred as I cannot afford them with my non flying job), are about 1200 pounds per month.

Just some more facts to put out there.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

his3dmw - thanks for clarifying the figures. I was told that there was no sector pay so I'm grateful to find out the truth is significantly better than my fag packet calculations. It seems likely that you didn't finance the whole cost of your training by means of a loan which is not uncommon.

I disagree with you that this forum is providing 'spin' on unfounded facts.

As your posting amply illustrates, any unfounded fact gets quashed by the heavy hand of truth within hours or days here. Furthermore, in a world where CTC marketing are spinning the line that this is an excellent time to sign up ahead of the upturn in 18 months, some counter spin is essential. What you get on these forums is insight and advice from disinterested experts who have many years of experience. This is somewhat unique. It contrasts with the cacophony of marketing noise, ignorance and out of date advice that generally assaults wannabes ears from all angles.

The Flexi Wings contract is better than nothing, is the only game in town for many and I hope it works out for you and your colleagues.


WWW

[G SXTY]

I’m not ex CTC, so have no axe to grind (apart from thinking that flexicrew might not be a very good thing for newly qualified cadets), but I have to take issue with the claim that now is a good time to train. It’s standard flying school spiel of course, and would be laughable if there weren’t quite so many young and impressionable wannabes ready to believe it.

If anyone reading this is seriously considering splashing out £70k on flying training (whether OAA, FTE, CTC or whoever) for God’s sake don’t. Not now. The job market is at a standstill - at best, and may get even worse by the end of this winter – and jobs (real jobs) for low-houred inexperienced CPLs will be extremely scarce for some time to come. And we are talking years rather than months. And, when the market does eventually improve, airlines will instinctively look to the most recently qualified candidates, as opposed to those who passed the CPL/IR some time ago and have just about kept current with a few hours here and there.

I could introduce you to several colleagues who are currently trying to service integrated training loans of £70k plus on cabin crew salaries. While keeping current. And they are relatively fortunate, in that they at least have airline jobs, even if it is the wrong side of the flight deck door.

Please, please, see the flying school claims for what they are – marketing drivel from companies that need bums on seats and cash in the bank in order to survive. They’ll tell you whatever you want to hear to ensure you part with your hard-earned – please don’t be taken in.

[Zippy Monster]

WWW:

I was told that there was no sector payJust to clarify, the way it works (presuming it hasn't changed since last year) is that those on their 6 months "Advanced Training" - i.e. the last part of the Wings Course where you fly with easyJet or whoever for your £1k/month CTC "allowance" and are still contracted to the CTC course - do not receive sector pay.

Those who have completed that stage, and then have transferred to a FlexiCrew contract, get paid at the rates his3dmw mentioned, including sector pay.

Better than nothing, but not all of summer 2009's intake were given winter work (not sure what the proportion was but I gather it's not very many). Quite a few are out in the cold doing other work outside aviation, back living with parents etc. to make ends meet. Hardly the picture one would imagine in one's mind if one had just sat through a slick CTC presentation with lots of nice videos of Airbus flight decks and smiling F/Os.

[his3dmw]

Just to clarify further. The 6 months initial thing has changed slightly. Because you are no longer "guaranteed" work at the end of the the six months, you will now get sector pay, even in the first 6 months. I think there has been some sort of contract change (although I never signed, or have even seen said contract.)

WWW

Having lived through it for the past 3 years, I know full well the force of the CTC spin machine. I did indeed sit there 3 years ago being convinced that I would be employed by NASA 6 months after course completion. I disagree though that it is necessary to counter spin. In my opinion it is seldom useful, and in todays climate much of the facts are as damning and miserable as any spin. I'm not saying that the forums are all spin, and indeed some of the postings are extremely helpful, if not vital, and not just to wannabees, but there is an increasing amount of stuff that I know to be untrue that seems to be cropping up, non of this is helpful.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I agree that all that is necessary is to put the plain facts, the true situation, in front of Wannabes. Its bleak enough and needs no embellishment.

The difficulty is that its often hard to establish the hard facts without the likes of yourself, being involved directly, contributing. Its also somewhat necessary to add spin in the form of changing:


Starting training now is unwise given market condition are poor, deteriorating and unlikely to improve for four or more years

into


You'd have to be a total lunatic to even think about training now in the worst aviation recession ever seen with experienced pilots lucky to flip burgers rather than be on the dole



The former is more accurate, the later more spun but to be effective the message has to be pumped out loudly, incessantly and flamboyantly if its ever to reach wannabe ears effectively.

WWW

[Asianberry]

Sorry can I just interrupt and ask one question.. How likely is it that one would fail in the first stage of the application process i.e handing out the application form? and YES I agree that now is not a good time to start training and No I won't be starting my training now.

[Portside]

Pretend to have £70k. Add compound interest @ 2% above Bank of England rates, over 7 years. (approx repayments £1000 per month).

Now go find a job for real. Any Job! (Along with the the other 2 million in the country.)

When / If you`ve found a Job, and lived a little, paid your bills, if you can then afford to save £1K a month for the next 4/5 years, use what you have saved to finance your dream.

Because at the moment it is only a dream, and regardless of what anybody wants to pontificate about, (Green shoots, Bamboo shoots, Turkey shoots, they are Bu** sh****ers.) the Banks want real money back with real interest.

Otherwise read / listen to WWW. Not the spin of LW.

Its a hard old world out there, when your bloody skint!! forever thus.

PS

[cjd_a320]

Expensive way to become Easyjet cabin crew :ok:

[One9iner]

Great post cdj... utter pointless waffle. Well done for bumping up the thread with 'words'.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Actually it's "easyJet" cabin crew, and it's not for that long.....

WBV

[One9iner]

So WBV are you cabin crew???

[one post only!]

I may have missed something but, no, he's flight deck. What has that got to do with anything though? I thought WBV was making the point that a CC job is better than a kick in the t1ts and its only for a few months till the cadets start flying again?

I am hearing rumblings about easyJet (note spelling!) wanting new start CTC cadets to pay for their type rating!! Is this true?!!?! It is hearsay only but worrying when taken in conjunction with the brookfield rumour. I am wondering if this rumour has been used to renegotiate with CTC to get a contract/pay for type rating arrangement aka brookfield.

If true this needs stopping! The figures mentioned were a total joke!

[One9iner]

The type rating is covered in the cost of a CTC course.

I think what you've heard is something to do with easyjets lack of commitment to 're-pay' a cadet the bond back. I.e. a move towards contract work as a standard, rather than placing cadets on permanent contracts and then re-paying the bond back at a reduced tax rate.

[one post only!]

Thats how it stands at present but I have heard about a fundamental change to the course. Contract work (which we have currently) AND having to pay for the type rating as well. A small upfront payment and then rest of the cost of the type rating would be deducted from the salary over 3 years. In essence its a pay cut for new joiners. Its come from the BALPA forum but the more I think about it, it can't be true though. Can it?? Someone tell me its rubbish! Please.

[cjd_a320]

EZJ:LN (note the spelling):ok: :rolleyes:

You guys continue to live in fantasy land if you think being flexi cabin crew acceptable.

[One9iner]

Once again cdj, you've come back with a 1 liner..... Is your surname cowell?

What value does your s@@t add to this discussion?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I am hearing rumblings about easyJet (note spelling!) wanting new start CTC cadets to pay for their type rating!! Is this true?!!?!

Yep. Easy have apparently informed CTC that they are no longer willing to subsidise the cost of the TR and base training. There are a few cadets who have been offered flexi-crew contracts for the next summer under one small condition. They each have to stump up £28,000 for an A320 rating. On top of the 60K they have already paid.

Easyjet are completely screwing the latest batch of cadets and not suprisingly CTC are standing by and watching. So the goalposts have been moved massively.

If you are a cadet on the CTC scheme you all need to be getting in touch with CTC to find out exactly what the plans are. I'm afraid the levels of exploitation are reaching new levels. I know this because I had one of the cadets affected by the new developments on the jumpseat a few days ago. I've emailed the ezy Balpa CC so they are aware, what they can do to limit the situation I really don't know.

WBV, One Post long time no see, hope you boys are well.

[cjd_a320]

Personally you CTC'ers should be more concerned with "one liners" on the other thread (in T&C's) on how your being viewed with in the industry...

:(

This is only the start of things to come as this deflation cycle plays out.

[Zippy Monster]

I don't know what industry you're referring to - maybe the regional turboprop 'industry' where people are finding it difficult to progress to jet jobs, in which case some bitterness might be understandable. In my airline, however, the cadets have an excellent reputation. I have heard positive comments in the past couple of weeks alone from training captains and normal line captains.

I think 'you CTCers' have more pressing worries at the moment than what a few PPrune whingers have posted in another thread. Take no notice.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/398854-easyjet-ctc-cadet-pilot-slavery-contract.html


Despite my two years of issuing dire warnings to wannabes not to put themselves in such a situation I am shocked at just how perfect a Hell has been created so swiftly (if true).

Timing is everything in this industry - always has been.


WWW

[one post only!]

CJD, hang on, hang on. We are singing form the same hymm sheet, I (or the others) am not living in some fantasy land. When has any of us said this is a GOOD deal?? We are not talking about flexi cabin crew work anyway. Its CC work while on a (already agreed to be ****) flexi contract.

Cadets pilots do training. Then work for a bit and get stood down. While stood down they get nothing as they are not working. They then get taken back on. etc etc.
EZY have offered some of them work as CC during part of the period they are stood down. This will only be a couple of months. As we have alluded to already its better than NOTHING. NOT A GOOD DEAL BUT BETTER THAN A KICK IN THE BOOBS (I thought that was fairly clear). Any work paying money is better than earning the square root of **** all.

However the situation that led them to have to take CC work for a couple of months..............! None of us live in fantasy land and think this is a good deal at all! Me personally, I wouldn't do it though as it means they don't need to employ extra cabin crew. Part of me would also worry that if it worked well they would make it a regular plan!

As for your opinion of the view of cadets in the industry, I think most people don't blame the cadets. They blame EZY and CTC. None of this is the fault of the cadets so don't try and lay blame at their door. Unless you want to argue how if none of them accepted the deal etc etc but we would all be here all day....

BMRR, I am good thanks mate. Still trying to drag the odd visual in!!! I will follow your lead I think and email the EZY BALPA CC as this is (the pay for type rating) sounding very much a reality and really really takes the piss!!! I have a worrying feeling we are watching the industry go down the pan!


Edit to add: whoever used to call WWW a doom and gloom merchant, I think you owe him an apology!

[MVE]

It went down the pan long ago sadly......Easyjet are just jumping on the bandwagon created by those that went to Ryanair and payed for anything they were ordered to.:ugh:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Details given to me by a cadet who is affected:

-Initial TR payment is 4K.
-Pay of £500 a month during TR training.
- £1200 a month thereafter with no flight pay up to 6 month mark.
- Pay of £48 an hour with £20 an hour deducted to go towards TR cost - for 3 years, which you are bonded for. They do not guarantee hours. 700 hours will mean a salary of just shy of £20K and a TR repayment of £42K.Salary des not cover loan repayments .
-If you leave before 3 years you pay back full TR cost.



This is the worst deal in the history of CTC/easyJet, I cannot think of any deal worse that involves such a huge financial stake from the cadet in return for a "contract" that you wouldn't even line your cat's sh:mad:t bowl with. It is worse than the FR deal with Brookfield.

For all those who think going to CTC is a good idea and have enjoyed listening to their spin, bear in mind this: when the likes of myself and One Post Only went through the CTC programme, we were offered provisional jobs with easyJet before we even set foot in a single engine piston for day one of training. We were given £5000 each to spend on beer and strippers in New Zealand. We went out to NZ in course sizes of 6, though many courses were smaller. We were provided with a laptop each for ATPL study and were given one car per 2 cadets to use as we wished. Once training was finished, those of us bound for easyJet were straight onto an MCC course, and were then given a choice of a B737 rating or an A320 rating. Hell some guys were even given a choice of airline. This is all with 250hrs under your belt. It was quite something. We all paid 60K as a "bond" (loan) and that covered everything. Not a penny more was required. This was the period between 2003 - late 2007/early2008.

Let us fast forward not even 2 years. The deal is now this. (Current cadets please correct me if I go wrong anywhere). The cost of the course is now £69,000. Course sizes have been doubled. You are required to fund the PPL part of the training to the tune of $12,000 kiwi dollars in addition to the £69K. You are required to sort out your own insurance, this was previously provided as part of the cost of the course. The laptops and cars are gone. Once finished you will face a wait of anything between 6 months and over a year for a type rating and there are several cadets who have declared themselves bankrupt. And the latest development is when you get an offer it will be from ezy and it will be the details outlined above.

The point I am making is the sales pitch delivered at these CTC open days is very much based on the scenario I describe in the first paragraph, whereas the reality of being a CTC cadet is very much the second. It was always a high risk get-to-a-jet-job-quick scheme. It required a large financial outlay but provided a good job on a decent permanent contract and good pay at the end of the training. Now the course requires a much bigger financial burden to be carried by the cadet, and, as the guys who were sold the 2003-2007 dream are finding out as they reach the end of training, the original deal is dead.

Things will hopefully improve in the industry in a wider sense at some point, but don't think those graduating in 2/3/4 years will be back on deals we saw in the the previous golden days of airline hiring. The latest debacle of a contract has set the bar even lower, and easyJet, and therefore other airlines will be in no rush to improve a brand new cadet's terms and conditions. The way of the future is clear, cadets on temporary, badly paid contracts. No job security and no idea where they will send you next.

I'm not saying this to pour salt in any wounds or show off how easy those of us who trained between 2003-7 had it, just to point out how quickly things have turned totally crap. I was lucky, along with the guys I trained with, the guys coming through now are sh:mad:t out of luck and I have a massive amount of sympathy for them. There are plenty of pilots at ezy who are disgusted at the way cadets are treated and we are trying to get Balpa to find a way to do something that helps the guys affected by the recent changes to the way cadets are employed and paid.

I never thought I'd say this but I really, really don't think this career is worth the hassle any more.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

BitMoreRightRudder - thanks for summing up how things have changed so much in such a clear and authoritative manner.

Pop it onto the Private Forum as well if you feel inclined. Many in the company are hazy about the various bits of the CTC package and how much they've changed and apparently are going to change...

When I was offered a first airline job by Go-Fly in 2000 on B737 many at the time were aghast that there was no final salary pension, 900hrs a year was the only limit and we had no hats. Not a full decade later the package of a full contract from day one, full pay from day one of the free type rating, a simple 3 year bond and an annual £6k pay rise in years two and three (Y1 £26k, Y2£32k, Y38k + £6kpa sector pay) to reflect your growing experience seems like Nirvana.

Where the next decade takes us I genuinely shudder to think. :{


WWW

[R T Jones]

Really good post there BitMoreRightRudder, I remember when applying to the CTC scheme back in early 2007 that first paragraph was how previous cadets had described it to me. Selection was totally down to ability, since all I had to do to get the entire amount was turn up and sign a bit of paper. The foundation course is now NZ$17k which at todays exchange rate is around £8k. Bit of rough maths, £69k bond, £8k foundation, £10k living, £28k type rating. I make that £115k, now add the interest. Lets be conservative and put £10k interest on that. £125k of secured debt, earning £20k a year... :eek:

Happy Days

[Mintflavour]

So how many cadets are signing up for this new EJ contract?
Come on surely enough is enough.
Put a stop to this unite together and say no. Go out get a normal job for a while to sit it out until CTC and the airlines put a proper offer on the table. Getting 6 months of experience then sitting out for a while waiting for the next job is worth next to nothing, Believe me Ive been there. After sitting out for a year I really felt back at square one again.

:ugh:

[Mintflavour]

Just read on another thread regarding the new easy jet contract.

"too late, apparently 14 cadets started their TR today and some had literally a couple of hours to decide whether they were in or not".

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Can any of these guys inform the rest of us actually how you are going to live on sweat FA, or am I missing something here or are you really that desperate?

[sharpclassic]

Is it unbelievable? Is it really? Of course it :mad: isn't.

Once again, the greedy management at CTC are bowing to pressure from easyJet and are dancing happily all the way to the bank to buy themselves another porsche and/or Aston Martin. They don't give a sh!t about cadet welfare, all they care about it flogging the current hold pool off to the lowest bidder so that they can say they still have a '100%' placement record. Utter bo!!ocks.

Then, at the next CTC Roadshow (Question - which cadets are still openly promoting CTC at these events?! What is wrong with you?!), they can con yet more wide eyed kids into shelling out £125,000 to live like a tramp for the next 10 years of their life before finally declaring bankruptcy at the age of 35. No house, no money, no life... and you're now in your mid 40s.

It's ok, there's still 25 years left in you as a pilot I hear you say. You can still make something of your life you claim. Yeah, except that every job going is filled by similar idiots to a 25yr old you, so they very schemes that got you into this mess are the ones screwing you over as you try to rebuild your life.

Oh, now, what's this? You reach 45, having spent almost half your life trying to be this big glamourous airline pilot you saw in that wonderful roadshow 20 years ago and you due to cumulative stress, you lose your medical.

Hmmm, which way to Beachy Head? It's been a good life.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!

[sharpclassic]

P.S.
Anyone else feel they can't say what they really feel on the Official CTC forum?

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

That'll teach me to post after having a few beers! It was simply to say there are worse ways to earn some money! They've offered it before.

BMRR i'm very well mate, and echo your thoughts totally, it used to be a good deal when we went through, it's getting sh*tter by the minute now and a stand needs to be made. It also requires the current crop of cadets to really consider if they can accept this sort of treatment for the rest of their career, it's a slippery slope, it really is. How are you going to live on that deal??! Honestly....how? If you accept it as "the only game in town" and "the best we can hope for under the circumstances" you're playing into the hands of Cor and co.

I know it's not easy to make a stand, but you must remember as a collective group ( the holding pool and the guys in the training system ) you have CTC's collective nuts in a vice,they do not expect you to do anything other than what they tell you, they don't expect you to stand up for yourselves, try and force them to go back and get a better deal. It's in the best interests of CTC because as soon as it becomes public that CTC Wings cadets are going bankrupt en masse, recruitment to the cadet scheme dries up and they lose the cash flow that keeps the wheels turning.

From our side I strongly support any action that BALPA can command and look forward to seeing the outcome of the current discussions.

CTC and easyJet, you should be :mad: ashamed

WBV

[v6g]

This is an intriguing new business strategy from Easyjet's perspective. By forcing their new recruits into bankruptcy they've effectively offloaded the airlines training costs onto a bank.

Clever stuff.

Of course, it won't work in the long term - but no airline anywhere in the world has a horizon beyond 6-12 months at the moment.

[FrenchScotPilot]

As an ATP pilot in the hold pool since February 2008 (AQC) I can say that I will refuse these conditions. I wanted to be a pilot for a long time but there are limits to everything. They are perverting our dream way too much.

At some point you must ask yourself "Is it REALLY worth it (under those circumstances) ?". Where is the joy in the job where you can't survive properly, where you can't sleep because of stress of repayments and repossession ?

Now what can we do TOGETHER to try and brake the trend ?

Best regards,

FSP

PS: I did my training modular and managed to do it without owing money to anyone but I feel deeply for the guys out there and if we stick together we may be able to do something, or am I a dreamer ?

[The flying bob]

No mate you are not alone. I guess everyone is purely appaled by this disgraceful treatment. But here in NZ, appart from being shocked people simply think of themselves saying "things will change for us".
I am up for any thing that could stop this horror but if some cadets accept this contract what else can we do????
I am almost done with NZ and due to head back to the UK soon and I know I won't accept anything like that even if I need to go back to my parents and work to give back everything to the bank.
But if we don't stand up TOGETHER then I'm afraid Ryanair will call CTC tomorrow to get as many cadets as possible through this horrible scheme.

I definitly feel betrayed by CTC and can't even concentrate on my next flight.
But you should see people here, only worried about themselves, some even adding the 28K to their total debt.
I already contacted some EZY pilots through Pprune few weeks ago to know if we could be of any use down here. It seems like we are just customers, slave should I say who can't say a word against this crap managment.
They are liers, guys stay away from CTC

[stansdead]

Right. Here is my view on CTC, from a slightly different point of view.

I paid for my own training at OATS in 1999-2000. I was fortunate. I had a good job before (in my early 20's - in City trading). I went to OATS and left with very little debt fortunately.

I applied to CTC and gained a place on a 757 course with jmc Airlines. At the time, CTC cadets were meant to pay £6k towards the cost. However, for a short period in 2000 some of us were fortunate to not need to pay. Reference WWW and timing in this industry.

The course was held at Dibden. We then went to Royal Brunei Airlines for type rating simulators. We were given a car, per diems and a 4 star hotel SUITE for our stay!!! Reference WWW again.

Then, 6 months on £1000 plus expenses at jmc. This was not a problem. I had no debt remember. I rented a room from a jmc SFO, who remains one of my best friends to this very day. No need to sleep on the floor (even though we did sit on 2 deckchairs in his living room for 3 months as we renovated the house...)

From here, I got offered permanent jmc employment and even avoided the chop after 9/11 (I was the very last man on the jmc seniority list - I had signed and returned my permanent contract - others had not and were laid off immediately). Reference WWW again.

But, CTC gave me a HUGE headstart 9 years ago and allowed all the following to happen.

Then, a 2 year sabbatical at DHL.

Then back to Thomas Cook, where I was based at my local airport and rated on the 320 then the 330.

I left 3 years later and joined Virgin Atlantic on the A340.

The common denominator is for me, fortunately, that all my type ratings were paid for by airlines.

I saw the downturn coming and jumped from Virgin before the sh1t really hit the fan. Reference WWW again.

So, recently, I took another sabbatical and joined Wizzair as a DEC - just before they changed their DEC criteria as the unemployment crisis really bit. Reference WWW again.

Not the best airline, perhaps, but with the direction this industry is taking I feel that being a Captain is EVERYTHING.

What this highlights is just how far the CTC deal has deteriorated. I never felt that the deal I got at CTC undermined anyone. Sure, I got poor pay for 6 months, but you ALWAYS got a permanent contract at the end of it.

From there to this within 9 years. Like WWW, I find it utterly depressing.

But, be certain: If this continues, the downward trend will ultimately prove short lived. As bad as things are, eventually people WILL stop training in large numbers. There WILL then be a relative shortage of "willing volunteers" into modern slavery, and ultimately, if airlines are to maintain similar size and shape as to now, terms and conditions in the shape of pay will have to rise.

The industry has changed. Seniority is dying. Jobs are set to become more portable. This is a sad phase for our profession, but I do believe things will, out of necessity, improve.

Finally, before anyone says anything regarding Wizzair. Yes, they are not perfect. We have JFO's who have large debts and constant worries. This does not make me happy. It is (indirectly) another layer of checks that you have to perform to ensure Flight Safety. My first question to all my crew members, every day is: Are you fit, rested, ready and happy to fly?

The answer is always "Yes". I wonder if it's always true..........:(

[Jonty]

I went through CTC back in 2000, and my experience of them was much the same as Stans.

In fact I have to agree with what Stan has stated, its my belief that it will come back around. No one can get a loan to train any more and the amount of pilots needed with any sort of expansion in the industry will far out strip supply.

There are peaks and troughs in this industry, the current trough is very deep, but the preceding peak was too high. It will level out to something sustainable, but it will take a few years.

[Bealzebub]

In fact I have to agree with what Stan has stated, its my belief that it will come back around. No one can get a loan to train any more and the amount of pilots needed with any sort of expansion in the industry will far out strip supply

Why? There has never been any real shortage in the industry. The source has always been a combination of military pilots and civilian career improvers. These cadet schemes sprang up as a commercial initiative that exploited a niche in the airline training market that used to exist in small measure with some of the limited career sponsorship schemes such as BOAC/BEA Hamble.

There never was any compelling need for the majority of airlines to take 200 hour cadets and recruit them en-masse into the right hand seat of commercial jet transports. The success of these commercial "airline pilot training schools" was brought about by a combination of easily available credit (they got paid up front). A good and easy sales pitch to the candidates, and the lynch pin of the whole operation, a supply of cheap qualified bodies to occupy the right hand seat. The whole success of the operation rested on the "cheap" bit. That is where the supply shortage existed.

The success of these schemes rested on the airlines ability to cut their own costs by simply fulfilling the end role of absorbing the product. Undoubtably for the early output the schemes were very successful. However the same nagging question kept being asked, why would the airlines persist with these schemes unless they continued to fulfill the primary criteria of keeping their costs down? Indeed having discovered the savings to be made, they soon realised what a cash cow that right hand seat could be: £30,000 for a type rating; no employment contract commitments; charge for training; charge for uniforms; charge for every other sundry item. You would never have been able to do that with ex-military pilots or career advancers from other companies.They would simply have turned such terms down and moved on to the next company. However a market of people prepared to pay large sums of money to satisy their ambitions, (a theme park experience,) created a whole new supply source that worked enormously to the airlines advantage. At least it did until the economy started to nosedive and the reality hit home.

At some point the market will pick up. The problem is that when it does (and all other things being equal,) it won't mean that the right hand seat suddenly becomes part of the upper rungs of an aviation career structure, as it used to be. It will once again become a part of the sales and marketing opportunities for the companies concerned. Like all good pyramid schemes it only works well for those who get in as the market starts up. Those who come later simply finance the game.

If changes come about (such as those proposed in the USA,) to restrict these type of jobs to full ATPL holders with a minimum of 1500 hours, then many of these "airline puppy farms" will have to change their business model. Airlines will not have any trouble finding recruits for the right hand seat, but the market will dictate that terms & conditions reflect the reality of having to pay for that experience once again.

[Allocate_on_Arrival]

Back to something flying Bob said:

But you should see people here, only worried about themselves, some even adding the 28K to their total debt.

And herein lies the major problem. Back over a year ago when the pool was first filling itself, I was one of the lucky swimmers. As one of the first in, I personally had been waiting for 7 months, a couple of others had been there longer.

A job offer came along. The T & C's caused a good deal of umming and arring as it was a new form of contract. Don't get me wrong, nothing like this EasyJet deal, but still. I initially phoned back after a good few days of thinking (and not a lot else) to say 'no' and my reasons being is that I wanted an improvement in the contract - guaranteed minimum hours, base etc.

I was then given the names of 5 other colleagues literally hanging off the end of a phone-line to take my spot.

It's all very well trying to stand up to this and say "I don't accept these terms" but it's not going to work while there are hundreds of others willing to trample you down to cross the picket line.

There were several guys who turned down this EJ offer, but sure enough, the course still ran full yesterday and they won't be missed! It's a sorry state of affairs... but what can you do!

CTC know their audience and how desperate some of them are.:(

[sharpclassic]

I received this PM from a current cadet who wishes even for his Prune name to remain anonymous...

"Dude... i fear to say what I really feel on any forum incase my anonymity fails and CTC tell me to f off...
Unfortunately they hold all the cards, if we don't like the way they do things they can tell us to find a job on our own. We have no power, simple as that."


Draw your own conclusions...

[Superpilot]

CTC like many other FTOs is fighting for it's existence and it is this fact that is pulling terms and conditions down for all of us. The partner airlines or lets just say Easyjet make demands (we want product X for price Y). The FTOs are fearful that the airlines may go elsewhere for business, and so they meet those demands. Trouble is, the likes of CTC never take the hit themselves, they always pass it on to us, the product. Because the product is normally a starry eyed wannabe with not much else to think of in life (partner, children, mortgage, car loans etc), CTC are able to achieve this relatively simply. Wheras somebody slightly older would just tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. They were once the darling of the recruitment/training industry but have quite clearly turned into a cancer which now threatens us all.

[FANS]

If sharpclassic's post is correct, I'd get on the first flight back from NZ. Yes you'll have lost some money, but it won't be £100k that you'll stand to loose if you stay.

How anyone can even think of doing this course at the moment is beyond belief.

[cjd_a320]

Fans , thats the best bit of advice given for a while.

People have taken an investment risk (gambled really as their unhedged)

The Investment hasn't turned out as planned so take a loss and move on before things become financially untenable.

[sharpclassic]

FANS,
If you're referring to my post with the PM from a cadet, he/she isn't the only person to feel that way. Pretty much every ex CTC person I speak to felt like that all the way through their training. They just kept theirs heads down and got on with things knowing that there was a very good chance of a job at the end of it.

Sadly, that's not the case now...

[TheBeak]

As I said several times before, wait until end of Feb before signing up for this scheme - now you see why. Still do. Then you can make a decision on whether it's the 'scheme' for you with all the information. You would have to be very thick to sign up right now.

[lours77]

Hi All,

Does somebody know How many suitable applicants are already in the ATP database pool?
Thanks

[Craggenmore]

This is so sad to read.

Back in early 2006 I went through the CTC ATP scheme.

I was put up in a decent hotel in Southampton for 6 weeks during type rating. (Loads of award/loyalty points collected - I've been living off them ever since:ok:)

During line training I was put up in a 5* hotel for 4 months and received £1500 per month for the first 6 months and then a £2000 well done payment for signing a full airline contract after the 6 month with EZY.

No bond, no repayments and no reduced salary. Just a full T&C's EZY contract.

CTC gave me a great leg up, having been a FI prior to the course.

What on earth has happened in 3 and a half years!

[hollingworthp]

What on earth has happened in 3 and a half years!

Haven't you heard, there is a real shortage on low-time grads at the moment :ok::ok::ok:

PS - did I mention that you need a fat wallet and a lobotomy?

[blackred1443]

you would to be completely mental to even consider ctc or ryr now

[sharpclassic]

What a surprise, still no comment on the private CTC forum from management...

[cptdivz]

people I have been reading these post, and thinking this is a waste of time! quick question thought does BALPA know what EZY and CTC are doing, also does the EU central goverment know what they are doing- competition commision for example. Or working standards departments- i think its time for this whole industry to change for the better but goverments plus media need to be involved:ok:!

[massiveheed]

Right, if you are conidering the current CTC Easyjet offer please please please read this and consider your position carefully.

The latest contract in basic terms after paying for a type rating in the region of £28000 will offer pay based on BLOCK HOURS only. You will not be paid for duty hours, sick pay, holiday, loss of licence, positioning and I believe night stops. Many of you may be aware of what the implication of this is but incase you are not please read on.

If (as many of the cadets who have been on per day contracts have found out over the last summer period) you fly in the region of 350-400 hours over 6 or 7 months.The new per block hour contract works out AFTER TAX at around 1100 per month. You will be very unlikely to do the 900 hours promised . So 1100 per month to service an enormous loan , rent, petrol, car food?? If you're still interested consider the following.

Day one position to Berlin (nopay)
day two berlin venice berlin (block hours about 3.5)
day three position home.

three days work for the some total of £70 after the 28000k loan repayment is deducted.

Please fogive me Some of these figures are rough but are close to the mark. I am a former CTC cadet, if this had been offered to me I would have found it very hard to say no if I had had no flying, and no way of paying my loan. But if you believe nothing that I have written above believe this.

This contract will put you further in debt, you will not be able to clear any debts unless you create new ones on credit cards and overdrafts whilst paying the banks off. That debt if you have not learnt already brings a lot of stress and anxiety.

On the old traditional EZY/CTC contract of six months 1000 per month and then cadet fo pay of 28000 rising to 36000 after unfreezing my licence I still owe over half my original loan and have nearly paid off all the credit cards and overdrafts. this is three years after joining EZY This is significantly more than any of you will get on this.

Get together with your fellow cadets, agree to all say no. They (CTC and EZY) need you. But sign the contract and you are screwed.

Sorry for the gloomy warning at Christmas but you cannot sign such a slave contract.

[Mooney12]

They (CTC and EZY) need you

I think CTC need the cadets, but EZY certainly don't. They can get pilots from any number of sources, like OAT. Im sure you know that the T's and C's for Oxford students, are even worse.

CTC believe their hands are tied on this one,with Easyjet making very tough demands, as they are keen to reduce their training costs. Given the current state of the industry, what are they to do? Easyjet hold all the cards now, everyone is fighting for survival, including CTC. It's a supply and demand world, CTC need to adjust to their customers needs, or it is gone.

If anyone is to blame in all this, I believe it's the Easyjet management. Of course they want to reduce costs and maximise any benefit they possibly can out of this recession, but surely they have taken this a step too far.

What comes of this, is a pool of pilots living below the bread line. As has been suggested before, working under this contract is liable to have the cadets digging deeper and deeper into debt, at least until the type rating is paid off.

Above all, it shows a complete lack of respect for the profession and an absence of any morals.

[RoyHudd]

It seems a widely held mantra that "things WILL get better". Ask yourself why. There is no god-given reason why the airline business should pick up. Cyclicity is irrelevant. The economic world is not in a cyclical downturn. Neither is aviation. Keep away, wannabees.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It won't pick up.

The new low is the new low.

Its the entry standard to which all Wannabes must now aspire.


CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC Overpriced Type Rating AND Temp Contract is now the first rung on the Wannabe ladder.


You'd better be able to pay for all that plus two years of part time summer work. Large airline B737 A320 First Officers now make about £6.90 an hour.

Its the new rate. Its real. Its happening.




Believe me.



Your CPL counts for ****. You're on under £8 an hour. You're a shelf stacker. Its over.



WWW

[wilky]

Is this really it WWW? This really grips my s*%t. I have been working my nuts off for the 10 years and finally when I have enough cash to fund training, this happens! OK a there was a recession, a credit crunch whatever. They have happened before and they will happen again, but that aside what is happening to the industry is not short of criminal.

I'm not one that is interested in jumping into a RHS of a jet. Not interested in the status or the salary(or lack off) as a matter of fact I actually want to start on a turbo prop, Ariel work, whatever, I want to have some different flying experience before getting into a jet.

I am lucky enough to have been in a highly paid job (although I do despise it) last few years and have a nice little a nest egg, do I really want to blow it all on training AND a type rating? Training I don’t mind - that’s what I’ve been saving for, but to now be expected to blow another £30000 on a type rating for contract work, just seems, well lunacy!!

I'm having a mental battle with myself - do I continue with training? I'm currently doing my PPL and will complete that for sure, but do I take it further.

I would be more than happy to bond to turbo prop airline if I had a type rating paid for and be on the payroll, but how long until the turbo prop operators start similar schemes. How many wannabes will be desperate enough to stoop to new lows to get in the RHS. I'm a wannabe myself, I have also had that "dream since I was a kid" to fly, but at this rate it's going to remain a dream, I don’t want a dream to turn into a nightmare, with £30000+ I’m saving on a type rating and the other £45000+ on training I might just buy myself a 172 and enjoy some touring to Europe.

It may be the end of a dream to fly commercially, but thank christ I listened to WWW posts a year ago or so and held off, I feel you may have just saved me a fortune and a hell of a lot of stress.

Such a shame wannabes will not get a grip and just not pay for these schemes, if we all hold off eventually we could stop such schemes and allow the guys who have experience and were flying in the good times, to return to the terms and conditions they were used to 4 years ago, instead of sitting at home whilst some dreamer spunks another £30000 to fly a jet and take their well deserved RHS.


I don’t post much on these matters, but frustration has caused me to this time, can't imagine how those of you who qualified, working and were laid off are keeping it together watching this happen to your industry.

I wish you all the best and hope that you get something sorted soon. I genuinely feel for you.


Rant over.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It is a Nightmare.

Total Nightmare.


Wake up sweating Nightmare.



Doesn't matter if you are thinking of training, are training have finished training or like me have >10,000hrs of command jet time. Its a nightmare.

Wherever you are on the career ladder the bottom run keeps sinking lower and faster than you thought possible. The end result is that your rung also sinks.

I would like nothing more than to get back to the situation of ten years ago whereby an airline hired you, based on selection tests and interview, then paid for your MCC rating, Type Rating and Line Training whilst putting you in a hotel and paying you a starting salary (which was my experience).

Sadly Gordon Browns debt bubble based on 15% house price inflation means there is a seemingly endless supply of Wannabes willing to pay right up to and past the first passenger carrying flight.



The rot will bring down the tree.



WWW

[VdV]

If its so much of a nightmare why dont you all do something!? Why dont you at least try to start some form of action, oh I forgot your union is a pointless waste of space. The cretinous evil that runs CTC must love reading these threads, laughing at all the anger and knowing full well that no one, no matter how angry, will ever do anything. You're all as bad as each other. This industry deserves to be thrown to the dogs.

[EK4457]

Not wanting to get caught up in the doom and gloom and also not argueing with you WWW, but where do you get those hourly rates from?

Is that just based on the latest CTC scam?

EK

[Mooney12]

I would like nothing more than to get back to the situation of ten years ago whereby an airline hired you, based on selection tests and interview, then paid for your MCC rating, Type Rating and Line Training whilst putting you in a hotel and paying you a starting salary (which was my experience).


That was my experience, 3 and a half years ago and many others more recently. Aside from Ryanair, this is a fairly new phenomenon, brought about by the downturn.

I agree, it's unlikely Easyjet will go back to anything better than this, but there still are more traditional airlines out there, with plans to recruit in 2011, who still do the above.

It's over at Easyjet, Ryanair and no doubt some other airlines. But there still are some other reasonable deals left once the upturn comes about and more people start recruiting.

In the long run, there will still be a pilot shortage. May sound silly right now, but air travel is still expected to grow substantially over the coming years. When that happens, I hope it puts sufficient pressure on airlines to stop this current rot in its tracks.

Lets not forget, that only 18 months ago, there was talk of BA re-starting it's cadet scheme again, as they were finding it difficult to recruit enough new pilots of the required standard. I know for a fact that was true and was only stopped by the shuddering credit crunch!

[RoyHudd]

Just who "expects air travel to grow significantly?"

Not the airlines, nor the airport operators, nor the Air Traffic authorities.

Price of oil will continue to rise, economies worldwide are in ultra-long torpor, airliner leasing is becoming increasingly costly, and will continue, unit costs of new airliners are rising, airfares and air travel costs are projected to rise exponentially....and yet there are wishful thinkers here who believe an upturn is just around the corner. This naive viewpoint is irresponsible and stupid.

Apart from agreeing with WWW, who is at the sharp end, there is nothing further for me to say. (You optimists will be mighty relieved!). And although I am in a secure widebody job, I cannot but wish to help those considering throwing their money away. I have been extremely lucky so far. New entrants haven't got a chance....unless they join the military.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

£8 an hour roughly comes from taking the CTC easyJet Block Hour rate, taking off the deduction for the type rating then applying whats left after tax to the Duty Hours and then stretching it over a year rather than 6 months of summer season.

Roughly works out at about £8 an hour.


Its not exact and its not strictly true but it does serve to contextualise the fact that the role of deputy airline commander is now attracting supermarket shelf stackers rates.

The only solution is for demand to exceed supply. Sadly the Wannabe zombie army stretches from horizon to horizon.


WWW

[TheBeak]

It is a Nightmare.

Total Nightmare.


Wake up sweating Nightmare.


That's it. Exactly it. And that's if you can get to sleep through worry......and I am not being melodramatic. Even if you can go back to a job that pays you 50K a year, having done your nuts on one of these stupid scams you'll be forced to live like a shelf stacker.


If you must do pilot training, go modular, get an Irish accent and passport and apply to Ryanair - it's the only way.

[FANS]

Anyone currently training with CTC care to add their slant to all of this, or is everyone too petrified to post?

I am sure your post would be a great help to those thinking about this scheme.

[Ollie23]

Anyone currently training with CTC care to add their slant to all of this, or is everyone too petrified to post?

I'm about half way through.


This just about encapsulates things;

Wake up sweating Nightmare.

[blackred1443]

So if your halfway through you started about 8 months ago. Can i ask why. Even at that stage their must have been a lot swimming around in the holdpool, the perfect storm was brewing even then. I really dont envy you, i think your staring down the gun of bankruptcy.The jobs situation is going to get alot worse me thinks.

I must add i have flown with some ctc intructors lately who are contracted in at my airline and its interesting to hear their opinion on the future jobs market even now. They clearly so used to talking this drive they have started to believe it, or maybe they thought i was naive enough to believe this tripe

[Rj111]

Heck, am i glad i failed phase 3 a couple of years back. :eek:

[v6g]

I'm about half way through.

Just out of interest, can I ask ... is your loan at a variable rate or fixed - and if so for how long?

Just curious.

[The African Dude]

djfingerscrossed... a couple of years back, Phase 3 - would have landed him in the holdpool next to me...

[x933]

Me too. Lucky, no?! :8

[kwb911]

djfingerscrossed... a couple of years back, Phase 3 - would have landed him in the holdpool next to me...
I think he means if you had finished your training a couple of years ago not just starting

Two years ago CTC was still placing cadets and down turn was just about to happen.

[R T Jones]

How funny, in related videos at the top there is one shown with a yellow box around it. "Debt Help - Get Out Of Debt Legally - Write Off Debt Today - Guaranteed Debt Reduction"
as a promoted video. Youtube is so clever these days!

[ZeBedie]

AH is on his way out - its Stelios who needs to watch that video.

And do the CAA have a view on F/O's being forced to sleep in a car before their duties? If they do, it probably goes along the lines of 'it is an individuals responsibility to ensure he/she is adequately rested before a duty'. Well individuals are failing in their duty to obtain adequate rest. So are the CAA going to drag themselves away from their cosy subsidised canteen and do some regulating? Nah, thought not.

[Throttle to Bottle]

Reading these posts I can see why everyone is so angry about this mess. Hell, so am I, furious, this isn't what I signed up to 2 years ago but I wonder if you can put yourselves in my shoes and take the decision all of us at CTC are struggling to make.

I have invested £65,000 and can't afford the repayments. I have spent a year doing f*** all (not through lack of trying) sat in the hold pool and no other career options available to me with 2 years of piloting on my CV. I am being offered a really **** deal, I know that and I hate the powers that be for it, but what do I do?

Am I better off showing two fingers to the industry and take to begging with my head held high? Or should I go, sit in the 'shiny jet' even for a few hours of warmth every day and a warm bite to eat (if I'm lucky) and hope that I am taking the right step towards one day having a proper career? I don't have to give £33k up front which is a good job as I don't have it. It will just come out of my wage...maybe whats left will help me afford some wall filler to close up the holes in the ceiling of the **** hole I will have to live in, and maybe a little bread and butter. Boy my parents are proud of what this industry has turned their son into.:ugh:

I await the phone call saying I have a decision to make but in the mean time I'd be interested in your comments. Not slating over the top harassing comments, constructive comments of what other choices I have.

[sharpclassic]

Throttle to Bottle,

I don't think people are getting annoyed with the likes of yourself, you are the type of person with whom we have the most sympathy. The people we are pulling our hair out over are the guys who are continuing to sign up for the courses knowing full well what the current deal on the table is.

"Things maybe different when we finish!" They claim. Yes, you're right, things will be different, they'll be even worse.

[sharpclassic]

...and before people start getting all panicky, I think fullretard means there are over 100 F/Os going from Thomson, not Thomas Cook!

[alpha.charlie]

do you really think that now is the time for you to spend 35k to get 75hrs on a jet???

:ugh:

That is NOT what CTC cadets have been offered, that is the OAT scheme.

CTC cadets have been offered something like this: 3 year contract, no minimum hours, £5k up front for TR and then deduction from salary for the rest of it (c.£28k), pay of about £28 a flight hour after TR deduction, a tub of vaseline.

I'm not defending it, just trying to point out that the OAT and CTC deal are two seperate entities. One thing they have in common however is exploitation

[one post only!]

Throttle to bottle, sharp classic is right no-one blames you it is the ones starting now who I can't quite feel sorry for.

flapsfull, TTB was saying he has NO money so probably can't even afford a instructors rating!! Also he is not throwing a further £35k at line training etc. Basically this whole thing is an excuse to slash his wage. It is being dressed up like paying for line training but its not, its contract work on a poor wage. He will not be borrowing the £35K, it is coming out of his salary. Ergo, massive paycut for new starters!!!

He has a choice, bankrupt while flying a jet or bankrupt while working in morrisons stacking shelves. What would you choose!?!?!?!

The main problem is if he doesn't do it someone else will!!! Therefore we cannot blame the cadets (the ones who started years ago) we have to blame ourselves. That is the current employed pilots for letting this happen. WE have to stop this. The cadets can't do it for themselves! They are not in a position to do it. Unless they all get together as a entire body to say no, any of them that do refuse the contract are making nothing more than a noble gesture! Unless they refuse the contract on the gorunds that they can't actually afford to live on it!!!

I totally agree with you FFR apart from I think we can feel sorry for them. Fecking sorry!

If every last cadet from CTC/OAA etc would say no to this deal we would have it cracked but that is never going to happen. As soon as a few people take it (which they already have) the damage is done. A cadets only option to stand up to this is to not take the job!! As I said, noble gesture and bankrupt in morrisons it is then.

As employed pilots in a union we have more options (hopefully)!!

TTB, mate I would hate to be in your shoes. Its a awful decision. Take the job and help bring about the end of the industry. Don't take the job and sit watching the demise from the sidelines! Tough call!!!
I can tell you would feel guilty about taking the job and realise what you are doing to the industry in doing so. Therefore if someone has to take these jobs I would rather it was you than some tw@t willing to stand all over his mates to get a job. At least you will then try and help fight these schemes later on when you are in a position to do so. Keep looking and if nothing else AT ALL presents itself. (I hate to say it). Take it. :{

[Zippy Monster]

Flapsfull - the guy came on here and asked for...

constructive comments of what other choices I haveNot a load of blood-boiling ranting tell him what he shouldn't do. So instead of sitting and pontificating that "you are part of the very problem that has you over a barrel", why not answer the question and come up with some suggestions of what other options the poor guy and the hundreds in his situation have? Or is it that there aren't any? They can all choose not to do it, as you suggest, but then what? There are consequences of choices and decisions which have to be considered.

Not everyone is cut out for instructing or, as others frequently suggest, flying knackered Caravans or Aztecs around the middle of Africa, and what makes you think there are jobs for everyone in that part of the industry? I personally couldn't ever see myself sitting in the right hand seat of a rusty 152 teaching nervous kids how to fly.

I'm as against this disgraceful attack on new joiners' (and eventually all of our) T&Cs as everybody else, and it never ceases to amaze me how many people in the industry know nothing about what is happening. You can't criticize the CTC guys for taking it though, deplorable as it is. I don't know whether I would or not, I'm fortunate enough not to be in that position, but I can understand why these people would take what crappy deal is on offer to them.

Now if it was the same deal as the OAA lot are being offered... it would be a different matter.

i should have RTFQ but i had rage because these schemes make my blood boilYou might want to look for the 'shift' button on your keyboard sometime as well.

[lpokijuhyt]

All this madness is going to end soon. Major news agencies have recently received the exact details of what has happened to this profession. Oxford, CTC, Easyjet, RyR, etc, etc. Can't wait to see the ringleaders of this crap be thrown to the fire! EASA is also very involved and they will be implementing a min. hour requirement to stop CtC and the others from simple exploitation. It's absolutely crazy that the FO seat has become "for sale" since First Class seats are not selling.

[disco87]

I'm glad that something may be done about this wanton exploitation, however as a wannabe what would this mean for the route into the airlines. What do you envision the changes to be and what possible route would be taken to the airlines now?

[pushback22]

Airline management in cahoots with flight schools have just gone one step too far. These greedy, frankly inept, bonus chasing management have just put one straw too many on the camels back. The media are going to have a field day. I am glad this is happening, even when the JAA up the limit for getting onto a jet like they have in the USA. Lets face facts, if it does not get corrected now, it will when there is a major incident/accident. Are we not in a safety culture where we are trained to close off the holes in the swiss cheese model before they line up. WAKE UP! This is a classic swiss cheese model. And something has to, and IS doing to get done about it. The time for being passive on this subject is over.:ugh:

[EK4457]

Wow, sounds like somthing is brewing! I hope that this talk of news agencies getting hold of this 18th century slavery/prostitution is not a bluff.

As as been said earlier, we either deal with this via the media now or after people have lost thier lives.

These target driven bean counters have pushed the boundaries too far. Somthing has to give. I do hope it's the credability of certain airlines and not our once respected profession.

I can see a really good panorama on this.

Popcorn on standby.....

[Throttle to Bottle]

Cheers for the comments guys, its basically what has gone through my mind.

Fullflapsretard I can understand your angry but regret you couldnt be constructive. I would love to turn the offer down, hell I could be a hero and save the industry by telling all my mates not to take it but thats massively unrealistic! Also you have your numbers wrong, CTC are not wanting £35k up front and if we don't fly they don't get their money, again as alpha.charlie said I am not defending it but its not a Type Rating with 75hours, its a TR with about 600. Also, I will probably earn more through this deal than by stacking shelves at Lidl (Morrisons...thats merely a pipe dream).

One post only you really hit the nail on the head. Its on the guys already in the industry and the union we hand over money to to save the day. I would be more than happy for this 'opportunity' to be taken away from me as long as I knew the next guys wouldn't be taking it. Unfortunately that is not the case.

On another note I don't understand people signing up to start today, I only ever signed up to pay £60,000 unsecured. Ok that didn't quite work out, but they are knowingly signing up to £110,000 of secured debt for the same thing when the industry is on its knees...really scary stuff!

[one post only!]

FFR, these schemes make my blood boil also for a few reasons. The same reasons as you I am sure! These schemes will impact upon every last one of us eventually.

If we could get all the CTC and OAA cadets in one room and explain why they shouldn't take this deal we would be sorted. We can't. They need to present a united front to fight these contracts. They can't so thats why I don't blame the cadets. I know people have said no to this deal. Them saying no and explaining to their mates the very good reasons why they didn't take it didn't stop others from doing so. Unfortunately this is the real world we live in.

I am not saying take on more debt as you are going bankrupt. I am not saying take the industry down with you. Its a **** offer but its pretty much all there is. The airlines know this and thats why they are offering it!!!

In the ideal world one cadet would say no, the rest would follow on from their lead and the offer would be upped. We don't live in an ideal world.

I blame the airlines and to some extent the training providers. You blame the cadets. Well lets agree to disagree on that one and focus our efforts in trying to cajole those that can prevent this from happening. Balpa/local MP etc.

If this does make its way to the press I would not be unhappy at all to see it get national coverage.
Disco, my hope would then be that things would return slightly to normal. Supply and demand will always be a factor but rather than heading towards the current plan of a mobile workforce on temporary contracts and paid by the flying hour we will remain with permanent contracts and fixed bases.

P.S not that it matters but its £35k for type rating or £28/hr (not £58) while flying. I view it as the latter. Whichever way though its a :mad: joke!

[The African Dude]

Are we not in a safety culture where we are trained to close off the holes in the swiss cheese model before they line up. WAKE UP! This is a classic swiss cheese model.

I really hope that this is taken seriously - I couldn't agree more. Wise words indeed... in my very humble opinion.

[TheBeak]

Hang on a minute, their genuinely is no problem with low hour pilots flying airliners, the problem is underselected, thick, dreamers who do it for the uniform, the status and the initial thrill. That sums up the Oxford situation. They have been filtered by nothing more than their ability to pay. The problem with the CTC situation is having selected individuals flying with extreme money worries or extremely tired from the excessive lengths they have had to go to to 'perform' the job.

I'll reiterate, their is nothing wrong with having less experienced people in the RHS of a jet airliner with an experienced pilot in the LHS. Provided the individual is selected, has absorbed all knowledge and carries realtively average stresses in their life then thre is no reason for worry at all. Thinking that because someone has 1000 hours more sitting behind an autopilot on a light twin/ TP makes them more suitable is nuts.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Personally I had >1,500hrs on light aircraft before I sat in an airliner and, yes, I think it did give me something more than a 200hr cadet had. If nothing else I was better on the radios..

That's by the by. The point I would make is that if the FO position becomes a profit centre, and if that profit centre only works with low houred cadets, then only low houred cadets will ever be recruited to the profit centre.

So you don't get the mix.

You don't get the GA/flying instructors. You don't get the regional turboprop pilots. You don't get the suddenly-redundant highly experienced rival airline guys.

All you get is 200hr, £100,000 in debt cadet pilots from one or two FTO's.

That's not a healthy mix. It could certainly skew the experience levels.



On another point do not expect anybody to be quaking in their boots about the media picking up on this. There is no public interest in a story about people who wannabe airline pilots having a tougher time than they used to have. For most people paying for a forklift truck drivers course is an almost unimaginable investment in their own training. Earning £25,000 an unthinkably good wage. Daft buggers spending the price of a house to get jobs paying double, triple, quadruple the average wage is of no interest or relevance to them.

They want to pay £5 to go to Malaga and they don't care who is driving the 'plane' where they come from, how they trained or what they earn. They. Don't. Care.


WWW

[GuyAK]

hello everyone,

I am progressing through the CTC selection process for the cadets scheme at the minute and have noticed you dont think much to it all. Could you explain why.

Ps. I would go back and read all your threads if they didnt go on so much about the economy , is very difficult to factor out the key issues you are alraising.

cheers

[alpha.charlie]

that's gotta be a wind-up

[louis261288]

I would just like to say I bailed out on the CTC wings scholarship after reading everything on this website and to be quite frank- I'm Appalled!!!

I was accepted onto stage 2 on the CTC wings programme, Very quickly may I add. I had the response the very next day after applying! I thought to myself that maybe they were just "on the ball" so to speak or that maybe I was just plain amazing, but it turns out that they are just after my money with no guarantee of a carrer after training.

Luckily a friend pointed this website out to me, otherwise I would probably be making the worst mistake of my life and continuing through CTC and ending up bankrupt!

If your another young hopeful like me- DON'T DO IT!

[TheBeak]

Of course it is. Goodbye Guy.

[GuyAK]

Having read the threads I dont think i will be going any further with CTC. I literally do not know what to do, all i have ever wanted to do is fly, and now the state of the industry makes it an unviable career choice. The pilots have been well and truely put under an eleaborate cost cuttung excercise. apologise for m ignorance.

[v6g]

hello everyone,

I am progressing through the CTC selection process for the cadets scheme at the minute and have noticed you dont think much to it all. Could you explain why.

Ps. I would go back and read all your threads if they didnt go on so much about the economy , is very difficult to factor out the key issues you are alraising.

cheers
Never before in any human endeavour, has so much money been spent, by so many, for so little.