The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[spider_man]

that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.


If the cadet went to university first, you can easily add another 20-30K to the personal total debt figure as opposed to just flight training debt. I guess car loans, credit cards, etc. Could add another 20K.

And interest on the loan payment whilst in training? What rate are these guys paying? Even at low loan interest rates of 3%, thats another 6k of debt on top for two years before re-payment has even started.

[Matt7504]

I can confirm that they do indeed use Pilapt. I think the pass mark is 6/10 average as there were people on my course with that score. Though, good luck getting there with the weather like this in the CI :P

[WhyByFlier]

Bealzebub, How about you get your facts straight before you post with this self appointed authority that you seem to think you have? I am sorry to come across strongly but I'm starting to find your posting either deluded, uninformed or perhaps biased for some reason:confused:

Let us take your following post apart, piece by piece.

he figures I have seen are around £69,000 for the training course (bond) and around £10,000 for a "foundation course." There are other incidentals such as medicals, insurances and course equipment (around £3,000.) What happens at the end of the course then determines any additional "hard" costs. By that I mean it depends on the partner airline and if a placement immediately follows on from the course. Where it does, the additional cost can be as little as nothing (airline pays for type rating and also provides per diem allowances for training.) To close on an additional £10,000 for type rating training with airlines such as yours! These costs are determined by the partner airline rather than the FTO.

That gives a broad costing of £82,000 to £92,000. Then there are the candidates living costs. Accommodation is provided, but transport, food and personal incidentals are not. Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months (if you can't manage on that, try harder!) that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.

I am having trouble seeing where loans of £180,000 come from, unless there was (even in the worst case,) remedial training of over £78,500! It is difficult to imagine such a scenario. Similarly the same sum could involve living costs of over £5,700 a month, which means they would be living to a standard of luxury that a gulf royal prince would be proud of.

Those cadets that I have discussed such things with, didn't have to pay any type rating costs on joining their airline (obviously not your company,) and those with loans seem to have them in the 70-85K range.


I am not suggesting that these sums of money are anything less than eye watering, and should definetely be regarded as "mortgage levels of debt" without an asset to mitigate the borrowing. The risks associated with the assumption of this level is debt should be considered very carefully and always with a backup plan. However, simply throwing unrealistic numbers into the fray undermines your argument.

Using the following link (which is all you'd needed to have done to avoid posting rubbish):

http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_Wings_Finance_Leaflet_Oct12.pdf

Wings Cadets pay:

£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.

On top we have:

Items Excluded from the Course
• Selection fees;
• Initial Class 1 medical and renewal fees;
• Loss of medical and life insurances;
• Travel insurance as required by the New Zealand
Immigration Service;
• English language tests where applicable;
• Food and subsistence costs;
• Re-tests of flight skills tests;
• Re-tests of ATPL examinations.

i'd estimate these at about £1000 for 'fees', £200 for an insurance and how much for food and subsistence would you say? Let's be reasonable to you and set it low - during my time I needed about £100 a week at good exchange rates . This is for food, petrol, going out with everyone, calling home, internet etc. So over a 14 month minimum course (ours took a considerable amount longer) that's £6000.

So we're at £95000 already......before interest is added on. Let's say you were offered 3 % APR over 7 years - the total amount repayable will be £116838.

This is using the following calculator:

Compound Interest Calculator (http://www.online-calculators.co.uk/interest/compoundinterest.php)

Then CTC ask people to pay for a type rating on top with most airlines apart from your very fine, fair and reasonable establishment - another £12000 is it now?

So in fact your debt is £107000 or with that interest rate is £131500. Now throw in some delayed payments because you're only on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. And then throw in another 6 months delayed payments because there wasn't a type rating available. You're easily well over £140000 for the CTC scheme. On the Oxford/ Parc scheme with a £35000 TR, housing and a more expensive course you're well over £180000.

And that interest calculator considers that you'll repay immediately from taking the loan - not 14,18 or 24 months down the line. You're easily looking at £1800 a month repayments over a 7 year time period. That's £28000 a year you need to earn to service the loan.

[giggitygiggity]

Well that was fairly rude. Bealzebub contributes useful stuff to this thread which myself and many others greatly appreciated and helped me decide whether or not to bite the bullet or not..

He (or she) has stated before that he has no connection to CTC Aviation other than to have flown with CTC Graduates in airline cadetship positions. Anything he has said was information that had been passed on to him either secondhand or perhaps was read some time ago. I never remember seeing him claim to be an authority but I suppose that assumption was made because he has contributed a lot. There are very few graduates with placements that post on this section of pprune so any info from the other side had always been greatly appreciated.

The figures he quotes were accurate at the time I started training and had been for some time, they had only recently changed. I believe an increase in late 2011 to 21000 NZD for the foundation course and then the recent increase (I don't know when). Any cadet that would have graduated up until now would have paid the old prices. Your post talks about the debt costs were you to take out a loan. Nobody is forcing you to borrow money to take this course, that is up to the individuals circumstances. Different loans may have different rates and the figures given were the basic cost of the course. I am not entirely sure but I think the majority on the course don't go through BBVA and certainly not for the total course cost. Any personal savings would seriously reduce the total debt accrued.

To update your figures, insurance is around £1000 for 28 months or until type rating is complete (and a £50 supplement if you want to go skiing in New Zealand:*). The course isn't going to happen in 14 months, 18 is typical but I hear that recent groups are facing delays due to various reasons. I was told to set aside 10k for living costs to cover the duration.

As I understand, the only airline that asks for a contribution to the type rating is Easyjet/Flexicrew which isn't most of the partner airlines (albeit the majority of cadets will end up taking this route). Type ratings cost money and to cover it, you will be bonded to the airline for a number of years. The amount owed for the type rating will slowly reduce over that period. It isn't money that you will have to borrow up front unless you go to Ryanair etc. Therefore you wont be making loan repayments as such or accruing interest. The figures I saw (some time ago) suggested that between month 18-24, based on an 80k loan you would repay ~700 a month and then ~1000 a month from months 24-84 or whatever the loan period was.

I think the bit you missed was the figures I have seen are around ... Look at that sentence carefully. Did you perhaps read it as This is the exact cost of the course, not a penny more .... Sign up today and I get a free parker pen

I think the problem here is that people have read so much negative stuff that they can't believe anyone with anything positive to say. There are a few that have graduated recently into their dream jobs with a very respectable airline after a short wait in the hold pool. That's not to say it will continue - although I hope it will.

[Bealzebub]

Bealzebub, How about you get your facts straight before you post with this self appointed authority that you seem to think you have? I am sorry to come across strongly but I'm starting to find your posting either deluded, uninformed or perhaps biased for some reasonSure, lets do that. Firstly lets start by putting your haughty indignation back into your pocket. I don't have an authority simply the numbers. They are neither deluded, uninformed or biased. They are representative of cadets that have come online (with us) in the last 12 months. Although the costs may well have increased recently (they usually do,) the reply was given in response to a comment about debts of £180,000 or some such figure, that was clearly exaggerated.

Anyway back to your dissection...

Using the following link (which is all you'd needed to have done to avoid posting rubbish):

http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_...flet_Oct12.pdf

Wings Cadets pay:

£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.

The cadets coming through to us have paid around $19,000 for their foundation courses at rates ranging from £1= NZ$1.85 to around $2.07. I am happy to accept you doing the maths, but my figure of £10,000 seemed quite reasonable. No doubt the next set of graduates will find their total figures higher, but again if you follow the thread you will see that we were discussing the costs of those who have recently graduated. A point you seemed to have missed?


Items Excluded from the Course
• Selection fees;
• Initial Class 1 medical and renewal fees;
• Loss of medical and life insurances;
• Travel insurance as required by the New Zealand
Immigration Service;
• English language tests where applicable;
• Food and subsistence costs;
• Re-tests of flight skills tests;
• Re-tests of ATPL examinations.

i'd estimate these at about £1000 for 'fees', £200 for an insurance and how much for food and subsistence would you say? Let's be reasonable to you and set it low - during my time I needed about £100 a week at good exchange rates . This is for food, petrol, going out with everyone, calling home, internet etc. So over a 14 month minimum course (ours took a considerable amount longer) that's £6000.

I gave a figure of:
There are other incidentals such as medicals, insurances and course equipment (around £3,000.)
Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months

That is £12,500 or more than double your figure of £6,000.


So we're at £95000 already......before interest is added on. Let's say you were offered 3 % APR over 7 years - the total amount repayable will be £116838.

My figures which again were for recently placed graduates (on lower foundation course costs) were at £91,500 at this point. Even allowing for your misunderstanding of the contextual timeline of the posting it still isn't too far adrift at around £3,500 is it?

Your figure concerning interest is about right. That is £259 a month or so for the period of the loan assuming that length of loan and a constant interest rate.

Then CTC ask people to pay for a type rating on top with most airlines apart from your very fine, fair and reasonable establishment - another £12000 is it now?

I am sure it varies, but as you point out the response referred to my "very fine, fair and reasonable establishment" so the challenge is redundant.


So in fact your debt is £107000 or with that interest rate is £131500. Now throw in some delayed payments because you're only on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. And then throw in another 6 months delayed payments because there wasn't a type rating available. You're easily well over £140000 for the CTC scheme. On the Oxford/ Parc scheme with a £35000 TR, housing and a more expensive course you're well over £180000.

No it is not a fact. Your debt may well be this figure, but I stand by the figures that I gave for all the reasons that I gave. Our cadets are not on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. They receive this sum by way of a subsistance from their own bonds to APL for this period. In addition they receive training allowances, flight pay, sector pay and any other duty allowances. They also receive their type ratings on a reducing bond basis. Were they not to be offered employment contracts at the conclusion of their placements these costs would be written off! Zilch.

Then there are the CTC loan repayment schemes that we have in place with HMRC that enable the loan repayments to be deducted from income tax calculation save for a small witholding tax element based on the capital/interest elements of the loan. I confess that I omitted this enhancement from my original reply, whereby the taxman treats your loan repayments in a favourable manner, however given your indignation and obvious irritation at my "delusion, bias and uninformed posting" it probably would have done nothing to help your case. However......
And that interest calculator considers that you'll repay immediately from taking the loan - not 14,18 or 24 months down the line. You're easily looking at £1800 a month repayments over a 7 year time period. That's £28000 a year you need to earn to service the loan.

Our cadets were taking home around £2500+ per month during their placements. Within a year of commencing employment contracts, they are grossing (subject to fleet and base) around £60,000+ per annum. This is also subject to annual increments for a period of 21 years. Using your figure of £28,000 p.a to service the loan, our cadets would actually repay their entire loan in less than 5 years, thereby reducing the total interest to about £7600. As the bulk of the loan would be set off for tax calculations, that would leave them around £32,000 a year gross. A liveable sum? Yes, I would have thought so, with a big bonus 5 year later when the loan repayments end and they are 5 increments up the scale and also looking at command possibilities at another 50% salary lift.

So when you say:
Let us take your following post apart, piece by piece.
I trust you now understand how flawed your dissection was. It always helps to read the post, understand the context, and argue the actual presentation rather than what you you want it to be. Particularly so when you have had a month to consider the reply.

[WhyByFlier]

The mathematics in your post don't warrant any other reply than you're wrong and they don't work for someone with a loan. I don't know about the BBVA loan as mine is with HSBC. I'm sure if you've borrowed the money from a family member the financial side is far less relevant, worrying and inflexible. The interest on the bank loans IS very much part of the cost for those that have them.

Listen, you are possibly still in the honeymoon period/ eternally grateful to bealzebub for giving you a job at MON. That is completely understandable - the job is a pleasure and MON have been extremely fair in their recruitment policy - I'm not knocking them. What's more if you do not need/ did not need to borrow the money from the bank then you're in a fortunate position that many of my era were not in - we wouldn't possibly begrudge you but appreciate the load and real cost to us - we probably make up a bulk of the moaners!

As for being rude - I did apologise at the start if I was being strong - I was more trying to be direct. I find his posts have a touch of tunnel vision about them (edit to say that in my opinion you proved my point with your last post). Please don't take offence.

The figures I have quoted give a good idea of the real cost and explain to bealzebub how it's possible some are in debt to the tune if £180k. He rather abruptly shot someone down for saying such a thing.

I've said my piece - sorry for bring perhaps a bit abrasive, I'm glad you're happy with your lot.

P.S. My foundation course cost just under £3000. That's inflation!:}

[giggitygiggity]

<not MON

I think the increase in course costs are paying for the new building that's going up in NZ and hopefully to extend the car park a little!

[u0062]

Ladies & Gentlemen We seem to be missing the point. Which ever way we do the calculations there will be a significant debt in incurred. I would imagine we can all agree this will be a six figure sum. This loan will be secured probably against a parents property.

The new contract offered to the cadets at EZY requires two years on agency pay a further two years on part time pay followed by a possibility to earn a current F/O salary. This is another significant saving for the company yet due to there financial sitations they have virtually all agreed to sign up to the deal.

These ambitious career minded guys and girls have been left a future of low pay. poor living standards. Financial burden that failure to pay the loan could result in there parents losing th roof over there head.

My objective is to ensure that anyone wanting to follow into there footsteps does so with all the relavent facts.

The Airline industry is in crisis, Flybe, Virgin as well as many other companies are struggling to survive. there are many unempolyed pilots,with many others joining the dole queue.

The only airlines left in europe will be BA/Iberia, Lufthansa, KLM/Airfrance, Easyjet and Ryan Air sais MO.

[Bealzebub]

My objective is to ensure that anyone wanting to follow into there footsteps does so with all the relavent facts.
Followed by:
The only airlines left in europe will be BA/Iberia, Lufthansa, KLM/Airfrance, Easyjet and Ryan Air sais MO.
That is a fact is it? Or is it just your opinion?

This is a wanabees forum. A forum for people wanting to become professional pilots. It is a very difficult industry to break into. It is an industry that comes with a very expensive price tag if you want a shot at the fasttrack programmes. It is very expensive in any event. The attrition rate is high, and the risks are both real and substantial. There are no end of people prepared to point them out.

CTC is one of the major FTO's who do supply ab-initio pilots into these fasttrack cadet programmes. That is what this particular thread is about, and indeed how it is titled. However bad the terms and conditions at certain carriers may be, or however many unemployed pilots might be out there, or whatever the levels of debt may or not be assumed, the purpose of the thread is to provide information. Some of that will be accurate, and some of it won't. It is up to people to filter out what they want from here, and then take it somewhere else and filter it again and again. No matter how many filters they do apply, at the end of the day there will be no guarantees and it will still be a case of rolling the dice.

I would suggest that is the point, and I don't think too many people are actually unaware of it.

[no sponsor]

I would hazard a guess that there are some posters here with more connection to CTC than they are letting on.

[u0062]

Bealzebub promotes CTC once again. wannabes beware of the propaganda machine.:=

[WhyByFlier]

I would hazard a guess that there are some posters here with more connection to CTC than they are letting on.

Quite.

Quote:
My objective is to ensure that anyone wanting to follow into there footsteps does so with all the relavent facts.
Followed by:
Quote:
The only airlines left in europe will be BA/Iberia, Lufthansa, KLM/Airfrance, Easyjet and Ryan Air sais MO.
That is a fact is it? Or is it just your opinion?


It clearly isn't a fact but it's a very possible guestimate.

Bealzebub you go on about MON who as I've said are a very fair, reasonable and decent employer who seem to want to do the right thing but though they do make up the second largest proportion of CTC graduates they take a relatively paltry amount in the scheme of things. There's another point to be made that this is a CTC thread not a Monarch thread. Short of a pre-selection by MON there's little chance of going to CTC and going their.

Question, how many placement opportunities is CTC expecting to secure considering the fact that they've increased the number of cadets going through the system? More exactly, will CTC really be able to secure a job for all the cadets within a year in the future or will they to pile up?


I appreciate that was perhaps a rhetorical question but no one knows. Venture capitalists, CTC and cadets alike are willing to invest in this. I believe there is planning for 60 new FOs in easy for 2013. I could be wrong and may have imagined that number.

[Bealzebub]

Bealzebub promotes CTC once again. wannabes beware of the propaganda machine

Another one of your "facts" no doubt! In any event it is still wrong.

For specific airline cadet programmes these routes are the pretty much the only way in. Hence the title of the thread and the nature of the replies. It is hardly propaganda since it attempts to be accurate rather than false. I have nothing to do with CTC but a quarter of all the pilots that fly for my company have started as cadets through that route. That includes senior managers, managers, trainers, captains, and first officers.

Cadets usually make up around a third of a normal recruitment intake. The other groups being experienced type rated pilots and experienced non-type rated pilots (including military pilots.) The problem as it relates to this forum is that most wanabees are not likey to find themselves in either of those two latter groups anytime soon. The cadets come through this FTO and it seems reasonable to provide information that is as accurate as possible, so I do.

A few of you make the mistake of thinking that easyjet is the only game in town. In many ways that is a reasonable mistake because for the last few years it pretty much has been. As a result it set its own terms for cadet placements which were significantly worse than those employed by many of the other partners. As a dominant player it was able to do just that. Nevetheless many of the cadets who took that route have since found opportunities with other airlines on significantly better terms and conditions. We have taken some as experienced type rated pilots. Similarly BA, Virgin and the large Middle Eastern carriers have all drawn from that pool. Where T&C's are bad you can expect people to be looking for something better. Where T&C's are good you can expect people looking to establish themselves.

[WhyByFlier]

Where T&C's are bad you can expect people to be looking for something better. Where T&C's are good you can expect people looking to establish themselves.

I'll pop that in my book of wisdom along with buy low, sell high and don't eat yellow snow.

It's not quite true though as you'll know by the fact that a few from the Swiss part of easyJet left a salary and package that'll be larger than many MON capts are on just to be home with their birds.

[Bealzebub]

It's not quite true though as you'll know by the fact that a few from the Swiss part of easyJet left a salary and package that'll be larger than many MON capts are on just to be home with their birds

As fascinating as I am sure that "fact" must be for you, I cannot see how it relates to wannabes generally or this thread specifically?

[WhyByFlier]

You mentioned a pearl of wisdom - I disproved it. End of. It had relevance because of your comment not because of the thread title.

Look, I'm getting involved in more of a debate than I care to and it's getting a bit petty. I'm bowing out but suffice to say to the wannabes - don't count on bealzebub ( how ironic ), Monarch, easyJet or CTC to guide you, save you or have your needs/ wants as a priority. Everyone's ambitions and circumstances are different and we are living in what is currently a very dynamic world and market. Take care, it's not a particularly pleasant industry but it is a nice job.

[Piloto2011]

Bealzebub,

On here 24/7, relentlessly defending CTC's cadet scheme in long, well-worded posts, yet claiming you are not associated somehow?

Please, give me a break.

[Matt7504]

Im not sure how relevant this is to the entire conversation, but I felt I had to stick it in somewhere. Monarch are currently recruiting 6 people from one of CPs currently at CTC, onto their MPL program of which I believe only 9 are eligible in the CP.

[mad_jock]

The problem is if there arn't 3-4 times the number of tagged cadets going through that training route will stop being viable. And the prefered option of recruitement will be gone.

Next year is going to be interesting after the last aircraft turn up to the loco's.

And the bulk of the 3 big schools are going to Ryan air who do also take modular. The majority of them fit into the ryanair model of young with family support to allow them to work while not being payed. Where as the modular students alot of them are outside the age bracket and have other commitments which doesn't allow for this.

If ryan and easyjet stop taking even for 6 months there is going to be a huge lump of unemployed pilots heavily in debt with no where to go.

And there are people getting work maybe not on a 737 or A320 but saab 340 ATR's, J41's, Saab2000's and other such types. But most of those jobs the airlines go for modular students.

[Dct_Mopas]

Next year is going to be interesting after the last aircraft turn up to the loco's.

In addition, at EZY, recruitment for experienced rated and non-rated guys for summer 2014 is seemingly more likely (which is great news for everyone, depending on the contracts offered). This is apparently to help fill the hole between command ready SFO's and the glut of FO's who joined as cadets 2 -3 years ago.

This is only going to have a negative impact on cadet schemes, especially factoring in the MPL courses. Even for those 'lucky ones' then it will only be a flexicrew contract for the first 2 years, if all goes well then you might be offered a 75% permanent contract subject to passing an additional assessment day.

The whole process is a massive risk with too many variables.

[Bealzebub]

Bealzebub,
On here 24/7, relentlessly defending CTC's cadet scheme in long, well-worded posts, yet claiming you are not associated somehow
Please, give me a break.

What is it you want a break from?.......Reality! :ugh:

Ok! I haven't flown with these cadets for the last 15 years. I haven't seen a lot of people do really well from these programmes with good partners such as ourselves. I don't work for a company where over 25% of the company, from management through to First Officer, have come through this route. I don't work for a company that pays for type ratings. I don't work for a company that continues to recruit a balanced cross section from a spectrum of pilots, but wants its cadets from a good, consistent, recognised and managed source. I don't sleep. I simply lie in order to obtain large sums of remuneration from a flight training organisation to supplement my meagre salary and pension from the airline that I don't actually work for (I think?)

No one has ever done well by obtaining fasttrack career opportunities through one of these programmes. You would be much more likely to be working for a first tier airline by getting 250 hours as cheaply as possible, when those airlines will be knocking down your door to get you to come and work for them. The sky is falling in, and within a decade there will only be two airlines left, so save your money. From now on I will shut my eyes tight, put speed tape over my mouth (or fingers,) and put my fingers in my ears! (may be difficult with the tape on!)

There!

That wasn't as cathartic as it should have been, but it may be the 24/7 sleep deprivation that hasn't kicked in yet.


Does that help? :zzz:

[WhyByFlier]

Finally, some honesty.:E

[halfofrho]

From everything I've read here Beazlebub provides the most realistic and accurate information.

From my personal experience CTC provide a great service to the airline and the wannabe pilot, and they care a great deal for their cadets.

There are far too many angry people around here who for whatever reason have decided to go about trying to disprove the qualities of CTC. Just because you chose to go somewhere else for your training, or because you chose to go modular in a time where airlines very much prefer integrated students, you can't blame anyone else for that!

The fact of the matter is that CTC is the best choice for any wannabe pilot wanting a job in jet. No other single FTO can offer the level of service that CTC provides. Training was an absolute blast and I met some amazing friends and instructors along the way who are absolutely dedicated to your training.

If you volunteer at an open day for CTC the first thing they ask of you is to be honest. If you ask a question you are always given an accurate and truthful answer. If you haven't been to one of their open days, I highly recommend it!

Financially, of course it will cost a bomb! You would be mad to think it wouldn't. Take your time with the financial side of it, run some "what if" scenarios and gather ALL of the facts before you commit to a financial agreement. What I would say is the above mentioning of £180k of debt is absolutely ridiculous and don't get scared away by that figure. I budgeted for £100k plus interest on the amount that I had to borrow from the bank.

[BerksFlyer]

There are far too many angry people around here who for whatever reason have decided to go about trying to disprove the qualities of CTC. Just because you chose to go somewhere else for your training, or because you chose to go modular in a time where airlines very much prefer integrated students, you can't blame anyone else for that!


If that's what you have understood from the comments then it shows either a lack of comprehension skills or severe naivety.

The negative attitude towards CTC is for the monopoly it has in the cadet space and the significant impact this has had in making the profession a financial nonsense and in stifling normal career progression. Why anyone would take on £100k+interest payments worth of debt for a part-time contract on awful terms is beyond me. No one is doubting that CTC ends up placing a lot in the right seat of a jet. The scorn comes from the conditions under which this happens.

The overall quality of candidates CTC is putting through has deteriorated significantly since the unsecured loan days. How else do you justify a massive increase in throughput all-the-while significantly fewer pilots are required by the market (2005 vs now). The issue with fasttrack cadets is that generally they are very selectively chosen by the end employer airline. CTC have basically made the fast-track available to less able candidates who happen to have financial backing. Of course they like to tell all the cadets they are 'the cream' based on what is, in all reality, a very straightforward selection day. They are processing way more of these fast-track pilots than could ever be required by a single airline, hence the clever model of Flexicrew and part-time contracts. This in conjunction with agreements with airlines keen to cut costs, like easyJet, provides a sure-fire perpetual demand. The added bonus is CTC can boast about 100% placement records and the majority, who neither question nor look into it themselves, are willing to get into such debt for such a scheme.

Bealzebub does a very good job of providing information that is true for the airline he works for, which happens to be amongst the fairer. This airline does not take on a large percentage of the output from CTC. It is true that CTC is one of the best ways to get into the right seat of a jet.

But, you know, this whole 'placement' thing has been created by CTC, and it is simply a product of what I have described above. It is all an impeccably marketed model of course, as its success shows.

[Stocious]

The overall quality of candidates CTC is putting through has deteriorated significantly since the unsecured loan days.

Hearsay claptrap! If that were the case then airlines would stop taking cadets from CTC, and new airlines wouldn't be signing up for CTC to provide their ab-initio training.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hearsay claptrap! If that were the case then airlines would stop taking cadets from CTC, and new airlines wouldn't be signing up for CTC to provide their ab-initio training.

The airlines get to choose the best candidates that the school produces. So far there are enough "meet the standard" graduates that the airlines are happy. If the school produces many graduates with most having rich parents who will pay for the training, but won't be good enough to meet the standard the airlines don't care as long as there are still enough to meet the demand, and so far that has not been a significant problem.

What happens to those left behind after spending huge amounts of money but no realistic chance of a job, is of absolute no concern to either the training provider or the airlines.

The bottom line is simple. The throughput of the big airline pilot factories has significantly increases while the major takers of the product have announced that they will reduce hiring of 250 hr wannabes as they need to balance their experience levels and anticipate a reduction in fleet growth.

Those are the facts and no amount of wistful thinking will change the central fact. Graduates from the pilot factories are competing for a declining number of positions under steadily deteriorating conditions.

One of the most important skills of a good pilot is managing risk. I would suggest that the first risk you should practice managing is the personal financial risk/reward relationship invoked with aspiring towards an airline pilot career......

[u0062]

Beazlebub

The Problem is in the numbers you see 2% At Ezy we see 98% thats the difference. No one is saying Mon do not treat there Cadets well but it is not the full story. what I have tried to do is detail in facts what happens to the majority.
Should the cadets still sign up to these shemes at least they do so with the full facts. In these uncertain times I would consider this be essential.

I do not want to see parents losing there homes.

[Bealzebub]

The Problem is in the numbers you see 2% At Ezy we see 98% thats the difference Another one of those numbers plucked out of the air?

I do not want to see parents losing there homes.

Parents where they are guarantors need to own at least 40% of the equity in the security (home,) including the proposed loan. They also need to demonstrate affordability in the event that the primary borrower defaults.

In my experience most parents have sufficient experience and common sense to arrive at sensible risk decisions. I am not aware of a history of such secondary defaults, despite your obvious concern. Perhaps you are?

[StevieW]

If that were the case then airlines would stop taking cadets from CTC

Well Thomson have. For that very reason.

and new airlines wouldn't be signing up for CTC to provide their ab-initio training.

And which new airlines would these be then?

[u0062]

No Reality Tell me how many cadets have monach taken over the last 3 years Compared to Ezy.

Your comment on unsecured loans shows a total lack of understanding of basic economics. If you do not pay the loan back regardless of who you are or what your financial situation was, the home is reposessed. Period:ugh:

[WhyByFlier]

Quote:
If that were the case then airlines would stop taking cadets from CTC
Well Thomson have. For that very reason.

Quote:
and new airlines wouldn't be signing up for CTC to provide their ab-initio training.
And which new airlines would these be then?


Is that true? How do you know?

[Bealzebub]

No Reality Tell me how many cadets have monach taken over the last 3 years Compared to Ezy.

If you mean Monarch, I believe it is around 55 in the last 24 months with more earmarked for this year. No idea how many "Ezy" have taken on. If the percentages suggested above are true, it would presumably be 2,695! :eek:

Your comment on unsecured loans shows a total lack of understanding of basic economics. If you do not pay the loan back regardless of who you are or what your financial situation was, the home is reposessed. Period:ugh:

I am not sure what you are on about! Do you understand the difference between an unsecured and a secured loan? Unless your quote displays your customary lack of attention to detail, an unsecured loan is not by definition secured on anything. A secured loan by definition is just that, secured on an asset of equal or greater value than the loan being offered. Your understanding is therefore completely wrong (what a surprise!) If the applicant fails to repay the loan as scheduled, the loan company goes to the guarantor to either make up the shortfall in payments or to make the payments in full. It is only when the primary borrower and (not or) the guarantor both fail to satisfy the schedule, that the charge against the property may be invoked. This is why the guarantors financial ability is assesed as part of the application process. So your statement is just patent nonsense. Repossesion would only be a consideration when both borrower and guarantor default on the contractual obligation.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Is CTC still able to fill each intake, or are they any starting/running with less then the normal allotment for a full course ?

[nabanoba]

Not true StevieW, Thomson have taken cadets from CTC this year.

The Wings course starting in April is yet to be filled.

[halfofrho]

Thomson definitely haven't taken cadets from CTC this year. Their last intake of cadets were laid off for a period but subsequently re-employed. Currently only Monarch and Easyjet have taken cadets so far this year.

[u0062]

Thats my point, monach only take a minority of cadets, therefore your views do not represent the majority. May be you should make that clear when you are selling the CTC dream:ugh:

[go around flaps15]

If you mean Thomson didn't take cadets from CTC in the year 2013 then you are quite correct.

If you mean the year of 2012, then you are wrong. They took 12 cadets from CTC. 9 of those cadets were offered permanent contracts. They all started in February 2013.

[halfofrho]

Yes I was saying that they havn't taken any cadets from CTC this year 2013, directly responding to what was previously said:

Not true StevieW, Thomson have taken cadets from CTC this year.

Weren't the guys that you're talking about the ones who were stood down after their summer contract ended and subsequently re-employed?

[go around flaps15]

Yes that is correct. They are now on permanent contracts with reduced salary, I think 80 percent for the first 5 years. It will be two weeks on two weeks off from November to March as far as I know aswell.

[go around flaps15]

The rumour is 2014 at the earliest for cadets. Weather that's a tagged scheme or open to all is still not known by most.

[sebflyer]

Hello,
I really want to become a pilot, and was wondering what the rates of success of people applying to getting into to program's such as CTC Wings cadets or Oxford Aviation academy. Also, I know they say that no experience is required, but does having for example a PPL increase the likelihood of acceptance onto the programme significantly?

[halfofrho]

About 5% of people that apply pass CTC selection, of which 98% pass the entire course of which 100% have been placed by an airline (who are not currently in the hold pool).

Not much advantage of having a PPL except for being able to show that you like flying. Only a minority of students per course have significant flying hours behind them. One thing to note is if you have a PPL some of the foundation course could be refunded to you depending on your ability which would be assessed during your initial flights in New Zealand.

[future captain]

This 5% you speak of is from the hay days when a cadet was tagged from the start.

I'm sure this cannot be the case now, courses are getting bigger and selection is tough but not traumatic. The maths is fairly straight forward for example. If only 5% of potential wannabes could pass this then something is wrong with the education system!

[sebflyer]

5% sounds epically tough! Does anyone else have a guess or estimate at the rate of success?

[halfofrho]

You guys might be right, i'm just quoting the information I was given at the last open day.

There are definitely more people on each course, but there could also be many more applications compared to 7 years ago...?

[Marandinho]

Hello everyone,

I just passed my phase 1 for CTC and I've been invited for the aptitude test (and hopefully interview) on the 2nd of April. Being completely honest, I'm very passionate for flying and I think I know what I'm doing. The problem is, I've been seeing that people are saying that not many people pass...? I mean, does the fact that I'm 18 and about to finish A levels have anything to do with it? It'd be nice if someone replied!

Thanks!

[halfofrho]

Firstly, good luck with the selection day. It's tough but certainly an interesting experience.

I don't see that your current status would be a disadvantage. What I will say is that they're going to want to see evidence of times in your past when you worked as part of a team and decision making skills etc etc so it would be good to provide examples of that from being at school. Any extra-curricular activities that you have done that promote these skills would be good to talk about too.

Hope that helps!

[nabanoba]

Marandinho,

Be sure to have a good knowledge of the Airline industry and what a pilot actually does. You'll definitely be asked.

Also I wouldn't be too worried about pass rates. At my interview day there were 7, 3 got to the final interview and I think everyone else was asked back in 6 months who didn't make it. I would try not to get stressed out about possibilities of success beforehand and just be yourself, do your prep and do your best.

Best of luck!

[spider_man]

Seems easy jet will mostly source their new pilots from other airlines next year as direct entrants, and scale back on the cadet recruitment. Where will ctc send their 360 odd cadets from 2012/13?

[Stocious]

Where'd that info come from spider_man?

[JevanBurchell]

Hi folks,

Previous or current CTC cadets: what is the standard of accommodation during ground studies in the UK, flight training in nz (or anywhere else) and then in the mep, cpl stages while back in the UK again?

[Vipersrt10]

Seems easy jet will mostly source their new pilots from other airlines next year as direct entrants, and scale back on the cadet recruitment. Where will ctc send their 360 odd cadets from 2012/13?

You paid a visit to the easyjet website, bravo :D
Pilot Careers - Careers in the Air - easyJet Careers (http://careers.easyjet.com/careers-in-the-air/pilot-careers/)

But if you scroll down it says: ''To allow us to respond flexibly to our business requirements we also work closely with our training providers and service partners to recruit from a pool of experienced pilots and cadets''

They've always been hiring experienced pilots as well, so don't cause any panic here mate :)

[average-punter]

No they haven't, it's been almost exclusively CTC cadets since about 2008 with the odd top up of a few flexi from Parc, but even then a lot of them were still fairly low hours.

[halfofrho]

Actually it was only 6 months ago when they were recruiting experienced FO's. Fair enough they used CTC to act as a selection for them, but in affect they were still direct entries, not cadets. They've always taken cadets, and flexicrew via ctc/parc but they've also taken direct entries here and there.

[EcamSurprise]

No they haven't, it's been almost exclusively CTC cadets since about 2008 with the odd top up of a few flexi from Parc, but even then a lot of them were still fairly low hours.

Not true.
Since 2010 there was a large flow of cadets joining easyJet via Parc / OAA too. Would suggest quite near to the levels of CTC.

A new MPL cadet scheme with CTC will be announced soon.


As for direct entries / cadets, theres been a large in flow for a while of experience (500 / 1000 / 2000 +) guys via Parc / CTC onto flexi contracts, it hasn't exclusively been CTC cadets at all.

The flow of cadets seems to have slowed though and the ones who joined in the later part of last year from CTC were laid off for the winter.

The Direct Enrty recruitment into easyJet now is to try and balance the experience levels, so I imagine we will see less cadets joining, but there will be some.

[average-punter]

Guess I stand to be corrected then! I knew a few had come from OAA, I met a few MPL holders from Oxford recently who have just joined. How long has recruitment for experienced FOs onto flexi contracts been going on for? I knew it had happened recently but wasn't aware of it happening before. Anyway the perm contract recruitment is good news :)

[EcamSurprise]

Experience recruitment onto flexi has been at least for the last 2 years, which is when Parc came onto the flexi scene in a bigger way.

A lot of cadets have come from OAA and go onto a different flexi contract which is better paid, though they pay more initially for their type rating.

The MPL schemes are an interesting one.
When you look at the redundancies feared at FlyBe, and the fact that the 'last in' were all MPL cadets who, if let go, would be out of a job with a worthless license as has happened in previous years with other companies.

CTC MPl info: easyJet Cadet Pilot Programme | Cadet Pilot Training | Become a easyJet pilot with CTC Wings | CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/easyjet)

[sebflyer]

Considering the different airline specific training programmes at CTC Wings, what way do you stand the best chance of getting in, and getting a job? If you apply say for the easyjet cadet scheme with CTC, are you still considered for the normal CTC cadets?
Thanks:confused:

[Matt7504]

If you apply to an airline scheme at CTC and get past the schools assessment stage but fail the airlines stage, then CTC are more than likely to offer you a place on their normal Wings course.

[train2fly]

Is anyone starting CTC in June? CP109?

[aspiring-pilot]

After reading through a lot of posts the general feeling I have about getting into pilot training through an FTO is not a good one and seems very risky when it comes to looking at it financially if taking a loan is your option. I have the fantastic opportunity to begin training with CTC wings on their wings cadet course starting in september. However I am currently looking into securing a loan etc, but I am really unsure as whether to accept this offer, due to the uncertainty of being placed with an airline after completing training. My biggest worry is not being able to repay the loan and risk losing my parents house which is clearly not an option!! Is there anyone out there that has any realistic information on the chances of getting placed with an airline and not being left to drown in the holding pool ??? :confused: Any sort of advice would be highly appreciated.

[AnotherWannabe]

My biggest worry is not being able to repay the loan and risk losing my parents house which is clearly not an option!! Is there anyone out there that has any realistic information on the chances of getting placed with an airline and not being left to drown in the holding pool ??? Any sort of advice would be highly appreciated.

I thought you have to find a job on your own if you do the Wings course.
Anyway, once you finish the course, you could get a non-pilot job, earn some money, and start hour building. Keep building hours. Then send your CV to all the airlines you can find on the internet.

[aspiring-pilot]

I thought you have to find a job on your own if you do the Wings course.
Anyway, once you finish the course, you could get a non-pilot job, earn some money, and start hour building. Keep building hours. Then send your CV to all the airlines you can find on the interne

No I have been offered a place on the wings cadet course, CTC help you get a placement with one of the sponsored airlines. I am just trying to find out what sort of a chance I would have of getting placed with an airline come early 2015, probably an impossible question to answer ? :confused:

[AnotherWannabe]

I am just trying to find out what sort of a chance I would have of getting placed with an airline come early 2015, probably an impossible question to answer ?

Well I'm no expert but just take a look at what is happening at the moment.
easyJet is starting 2 MPL schemes INSTEAD of recruiting from the hold pool.
Now what does that tell you about the future?

[StevieW]

The only two 'partner airlines' that have yet to neglect CTC (MON and EZY) both have MPL schemes that will generally fulfill their future cadet requirements. easyJet also have an MPL scheme with CAE/OAA.

Things change very quickly in this industry, but the wings course was a bubble that has now burst. If you're not attached to an airline or on an MPL scheme, you may as well save your money and go modular.

[Piloto2011]

And even a tagged MPL program I would be veeery careful with. If the to-be-employed-by airline goes pop along the way (admittedly highly unlikely in the cases of M or eJ, but never say never), you basically have nada flying qualification. Personally I would be interested only if the MPL course is sponsored in full. Otherwise only modular with second qualification (uni, apprenticeship) to fall back on.

[sebflyer]

This is all so confusing! Basically, if I want to become a pilot after finishing A levels, what is the best chance of doing that. Also, how exactly do you get onto a course with a specific airline? Thanks

[average-punter]

I remember being in your position very well, so I guess that's why I have a bit of sympathy! I'm a few years older than you, so will give you a little bit of advice (or rather what I did). It most certainly is not the only way.

When I was your age I knew that this is the career I wanted and was determined to get it. I spent hours reading through this forum, looking at FTO websites and making an effort to go to open days and the flyer exhibition at Heathrow. I also realised whilst at school that getting a flying job would be very difficult so I quickly worked out the easiest way to a job would be through a cadet programme. I then began researching airlines and seeing how they recruited low hour pilots. Whilst I was doing my a-levels I knew I needed to try and stand out from the crowd and really show my dedication to flying to stand a chance in being selected for one of the programmes. So I began washing aircraft at my local airfield and often hung around in the airfield cafe. Through that I became involved with a charity that offers heavily subsidised flying for the disabled and I volunteered there for a while and I still do.

My bit of advice for you that I think is the most important based on personal reflection is get involved in as many activities as possible at your school/college. I didn't and wasn't keen at all, I arrived as late as I could at school and left as early as I could. In hindsight it hasn't hindered me too much but it would have given me far more to talk about in interviews than I did before I started working full time. I had a part-time job whilst at college and I highly recommend getting one once you're 16. There is loads going on at schools and I should definitely have made more of my time there. I have found that whilst going through interview processes that airlines today are very keen on the 'softer skills'. How do you work in a team? What is your leadership style? bla bla you get the idea.

I left college and started working full time at my local leisure centre for a few months then got a cabin crew job which I'm still doing now. I'm fortunate enough to have a place on a cadet programme and I start training at the end of the year.

The easiest route to becoming a pilot? Well I guess that depends on a whole host of variables. I'm not there yet but my route so far has been.

- School

- College (a-levels)
- Part time job (whilst at college)

- Cleaning aircraft and volunteering
- Leisure centre
- Cabin crew

Once you've finished college perhaps consider getting a job in the industry if uni isn't for you? It will give you some great experience :)

Best of luck mate!

[Hamsterminator]

My query here is as follows.

If application to the CTC wings course is so risky, where are the droves of cadets who presumably don't get accepted by airlines? CTC passes around 30 cadets a month. Upon asking them how many cadets get jobs afterwards, the reply was that 100% of the cadets get offered airline placements, typically within 5 months.

I'm not advocating CTC wings as being a fail proof option, of course not. However the facts are simply that they are shifting quite large numbers of cadets every month to the extent that they have actually expanded their capacity per month this year.

Nobody wants to be forced to go into debt with no "promise" of a job, and I can see why that is such a glaring problem to most people (myself included). However it seems far from a hopeless gamble. As CTC explain themselves, their success as a training school relies on getting results- i.e. passing cadets onto airlines. If they were unable to do this, they wouldn't be in business and companies and students alike wouldn't want to be associated with them. These types of threads seem to overflow with negativity towards gaining access to airlines. I'd absolutely love to be able to walk into BA head office and say "Hi guys can you pay for my training and ratings and in return i'll work for you" but alas that isn't the way it works. Entry avenues are damned difficult to come by- it is less a case of getting one's foot in the door and more like wedging one's crowbar in the gate.

[contacttower118.2]

If you can afford it and want to get into the RHS of an airliner relatively quickly CTC is clearly one of the best options out there.

Without wishing to get back into the never ending debate about modular vs. integrated it seems to me, especially as the MPL is getting more common, that the proportion of low hour jobs at the airlines that CTC/OAA/FTE take up is only going to get more extensive as time goes by, especially for jobs on the A320/737 type of aircraft.

I doubt very much that CTC would still be as popular and successful as it is if it genuinely didn't deliver jobs in a relatively short space of time to the majority of its Wings students.

At the end of the day one just has to read all the stuff on here, talk to people who have been through the process etc, and decide...:hmm:

[Nero91]

Yo!

Anyone here interviewing on the 19th June?

[Nero91]

Wow! Looks like I killed the convo a little ay!?...:sad:

[daveandg]

Anyone on CP112 (September) PM me and we'll get a Facebook group going

[contacttower118.2]

Can someone answer me this...

Why is the flying phase in New Zealand so long? I mean normally in an intensive environment it would be possible to teach a PPL in two months and the CPL probably in another two at the very most.

Yet reading the CTC wings course description describes eight months in New Zealand...what on earth do you spend your time doing? :confused:

[LastMinuteChanges]

ContactTower, setting off Fire Extinguishers and watching online movies at Clearways, the campus accommodation.

Joking aside, OAA Phoenix is normally a 5-month stretch but this too can vary with availability of aircraft and instructors. I believe the same is true at CTC with regards to potential limited availability.

[daveandg]

Also, if you stayed here you'd be doing an hours building element with the modular route. You dont quite have to do the equivalent, but you dont just finish a PPL then leap straight into the CPL

[giggitygiggity]

I will admit that it is perhaps unnecessarily long, when we were there there was a lot of instructors leaving for their first airline jobs which made it all a little slower. You end up flying solidly for 1 week and then have 2 weeks with nothing on.

With your time off, get down to Raglan as much as possible, get a season pass on the Luge at Rotorua, Tauranga is a lot nicer than Hamilton so go down there for the day. There is a bit to do but just remember that it is a country for tourists so everything does end up costing a lot. Apart from that, just sit in your room and dream about the big shiny jet!

[rich1241]

Now that airlines like Monarch & Qatar have launched their own program's, who do you think most people will end up working for? Given the other partner airlines may not be expanding as much etc

[user-name]

Longest wait in the pool at the moment around 9 months. 50+ starting TR from September. EasyJet have just ordered 135 new airbus, the current generation A320 due for delivery from 2015. Doesn't look too gloomy?!

[Dct_Mopas]

Quoted from easyJet.com:

"85 of 135 ordered aircraft will be used to replace ageing aircraft as they leave the fleet and return to lessors, with the remaining aircraft used to continue easyJet’s existing strategy of capacity seat growth of between 3% to 5% per annum."

So with 3 - 5% expansion then the vast majority of recruitment will probably be covered by MPL's on the tagged scheme and the experienced pilot recruitment scheme.

Certainly the numbers entering the CTC pool will continue to exceed the number leaving for some time.

[braders777]

Can anyone explain how the BSc hons degree programme runs in more detail? How to go about securing the loan, is it through Middlesex university or CTC?

I have looked on UCAS and the Middlesex university website and cannot find a course code or anything.

Thanks

[Mr-P]

Hey folks,

I was just wondering what the current state of affairs is with the Wings pool, anyone like to offer anything?

My total guess is that the pool must be in the 250+ region by now which will surely be impossible to empty this winter with it constantly being topped up, easyJet opting for a DE recruitment campaign and as far as I know no rumours of new partners.

So anyone just recently finished willing to give their approximate hold pool number (assuming that you are given one)?
Cheers

[planedrive]

As of pretty recently, approx 80 in the hold pool, 50 being taken by end of October.

[Stocious]

My mate is currently swimming and says there are about 70-80 at the moment, reducing to about 20-30 in the next few weeks after about 50 get allocated to EJ type ratings starting in the next couple of months.

Absolutely less than 250+, though the pool is most unlikely to 'empty' completely.

[Sprinkles]

8 months a long time in NZ!? Seriously guys that's nothing. When i was there i went to NZ three times over the course of the wings programme. First trip home after 7 months was to complete the first set of ATPLs in BGS. Then back to the tron for another 5 months to complete SE phase and ME IFR phase. Back home again to complete second set of ATPLs an IR in Bomo. Then back to NZ for a third time to complete ME CPL. Probably spent over a year there in total. By my third trip the "commute" to NZ was effortless. Not that the new guys I travelled with would have agreed! :} 12 months still wasn't long enough. I was the last ever old school Modular cadet to complete his CPL there. End of an era sadly. :(

Got 200 hours flying (50 hours more than new guys) at £9,000 less! Bargain! :ok:

Seriously guys 8 months is nothing and I know its hard work but it is a flying holiday most of the time. Enjoy every minute of it as it goes by very quickly! I doubt you'll get that sort of flying experience when you're with an airline. I dont with exception to the odd visual circuit at PFO and FAO.

Thoughts go out to the guy who did the PFL lately. Practised it many a time but never did one in anger. Was so expecting to see SFDeath-trap as the culprit but looks like one of CTCs newer Da20s. SFD caused my heart to skip a beat on a couple of occasions. :uhoh:

Do what the rest of us did. Fly, drink, leave the Maoris alone and enjoy the local student population if you know what i mean! :E

Oh and say hello to 101 for me! Met roulette was always fun in that place!

[Stocious]

Is a PFL still a PFL when it's not a PFL? :\

[Mr-P]

Only 70-80, wow that seems surprisingly low. The sums are not adding up somewhere but if that's the figure then great news for the Wings cadets.

It's just that I met a guy a few months back who finished mid 2012 and started his TR for eJ beginning of this year and he reckons he was A) one of the last for 2013 and B) CTC were trying to grow to 30 cadets a month as he finished. That's the reason I thought the pool must be quite large by now. I guess either CTC isn't getting the numbers through they wanted or they are placing plenty of cadets elsewhere, let's hope it's the latter!

All the best.

[contacttower118.2]

My mate is currently swimming and says there are about 70-80 at the moment, reducing to about 20-30 in the next few weeks after about 50 get allocated to EJ type ratings starting in the next couple of months.

As of pretty recently, approx 80 in the hold pool, 50 being taken by end of October.

And what rate is it filling up at?

[Sprinkles]

Is a PFL still a PFL when it's not a PFL?


It is when it's a 'performed' forced landing! :8

[planedrive]

@contacttower118.2

From the latest batch to enter the hold pool there will be people joining approximately every month. Max per month is 18 people, but in the next 5(ish) CP's there are tagged cadets for Monarch, BA and Flybe so somewhere between 12-15 per month... all rough estimates!

[Bombarde]

A bit concerned to hear that SFDeath has been known as such for many years! It really needs to be retired

[braders777]

Anyone starting CP113 in October?

[smartguy]

once you have done the course how long is the wait until your placed? And do you have to pay the whole of your type rating up front??

[Bealzebub]

That depends on the time you finish your course and the supply and demand curves at that point. Many airlines will programme their entrant training courses in the Winter/Spring, before the busiest periods of the year. This means that they will want names on paperwork in the Autumn/Winter. If that is when you graduate, and their is sufficient demand, you might get a very quick or seamless placement. I saw quite a few people do this during December/January 2011/12.

Placements require demand from airline companies, and that is difficult to predict. I am seeing people coming through to placement airlines who have been waiting 9-12 Months. In the past, the waiting times have been longer than this in some cases.

The terms for the type rating depend on the placement airline. Some require that you pay for this, and some don't require any payment at all. In the case of the latter, you would be "bonded" for a sum on a depreciating scale should you leave the company within a short time scale. If the placement didn't result in a subsequent offer of employment, then the rating costs may be written off. However that very much depends on the individual airline and is certainly not the case with all of them.

[smartguy]

ok thanks, I would be looking to do it around 2015, what kind of demand do you expect then?

[Bealzebub]

who knows?

There isn't a company that wouldn't like to believe that they will be in profit and expanding to take advantage of the enormous opportunities that are available in their respective marketplaces.

The reality is often much more subdued, with difficult economic trading conditions, cut throat competition, and whatever it takes to ensure their survival, much higher on the agenda.

You make the choices and live with the risks.

Choose wisely!

[smartguy]

And also, out of interest, how much is refunded by ctc of the foundation course in NZ if you already hold a ppl?

[Matt7504]

I think its about 10 hours worth of flying

[Up North Like]

This varies and depends on a number of factors:

1. How long you have had your license.
2. How current you are, when you last flew.
3. How many hours you have.
4. Do the hours accurately represent your actual flying ability.
5. Whether or not you personally feel you meet the standard CTC want without needing remedial training.

You are given the chance to request a shorter course before you leave for NZ. The head of training puts in the request and you are then assessed by an instructor over a number of lessons when you arrive in NZ. If you are at the level you say/your hours represent then you will cut out the lessons that you do not need.

[halfofrho]

CTC runs cadet courses once every month at the moment. These are the general wings course and you are not preselected for any airline.

CTC also run their partnership courses with various airlines which pop up every now and then. Just have a look at their website for their current airline courses.

To answer the second part of your question, yes you will be eligible with over 100 hours. You will most certainly be entitled to a discount with that much experience as well.

[planedrive]

Pilot Lad - If I were you hold out for the cadet schemes! There seem to be more and more around, and more in the offing! Although things seem good for the current cadets going through the original wings course as well. The courses run once a month and are a mix. You get people on the wings course mixed in with BA FPP and MPL guys for the ground school, although some courses are now doing both ATPL Theory and flying in New Zealand (these seem to be the MPL guys).

In respect to your hours, it completely depends on what your hours are on/when you got them/ if you want money off. I know of several people who have significant hours (200+) some of which aren't allowed to take a reduction in hours for the course, or who have chosen not to! After all its a flying course - why would you not want to fly! 100 Hours would definitely not hold you back from the Wings course, but I can't speak for the mentored schemes. Saying that I do know of people with PPL's plus experience on Flybe Wings and BAFPP.

[Mr-P]

So folks any comments on the info that was posted on ppjn today

easyJet (UK Contract) pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/easyJet_(UK_Contract))

That must empty the pool down a little although I suspect it is still pretty deep :uhoh:

With all the direct entry position eJ is offering just now this could be the only recruitment from the CTC wings pool this winter. I can't see any recruitment elsewhere unless there is an imminent announcement...any thoughts?

[aviation nomad]

Sorry to go off topic from this to something that has been much discussed anyway, but can anyone suggest the best and most accurate Pilapt software for a CTC wings assessment day? There are a few and they range in price quite bit.

I need to know if it is worth paying 120 for cockpitweb, when there are other ones which only ask for 20 a month and seem to offer the same thing

Any recommendations would help a lot.

Thanks

[Vipersrt10]

So folks any comments on the info that was posted on ppjn today

easyJet (UK Contract) pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements.

That must empty the pool down a little although I suspect it is still pretty deep

With all the direct entry position eJ is offering just now this could be the only recruitment from the CTC wings pool this winter. I can't see any recruitment elsewhere unless there is an imminent announcement...any thoughts?

It says 100 cadets from CTC, that's HUGE! Anyways, everyone can add info to ppjn so it's not 100% reliable. The only thing we can do is wait and see....

[Dilan12345]

Is anybody taking the CTC assessment phase 2&3 soon? I havnt booked mine yet but it will be the 5th or 12th of November?

[limesoda]

What course are you applying for?

[planedrive]

@Mr-p

Where did you get the idea that the hold pool must still be very deep? From what I have heard BA cityflyer, Easy and Thompson are all taking cadets for the 2013/2014 training window. I have also heard RUMOURS that cadets still in basic training (ie pre CPL) have been given dates to start type rating for EZY in this period. Add to that fact that courses finishing now and going into holdpool include many BAFPP, FlyBe, and Monarch preselected cadets and the future seems to be looking quite bright (but not necessarily Orange) for CTC Wings Cadets in training at the moment.

A couple of questions:
1) Does anyone know why the last couple of intakes have been so big? Will this create problems further down the line in NZ or have they enough capacity?
2) Does anyone know anything on the rumours that Qatar will be taking many cadets in 2014?

[Vipersrt10]

A couple of questions:
1) Does anyone know why the last couple of intakes have been so big? Will this create problems further down the line in NZ or have they enough capacity?
2) Does anyone know anything on the rumours that Qatar will be taking many cadets in 2014?

1. Why? Because easyJet is doing really well at the moment.
2. +/- 10 cadets every 2 months.

[Mr-P]

@planedrive

OK that's interesting as I have conflicting information. I understand that Thomson are in fact going to recruit their cadets from inside the company. They have plenty of fATPL guys working as cabin crew and in their offices to more than cover their intake requirement.

As for BA Cityflyer there has been a rumour that some cadets were taken for their "hold pool". Nobody has been able to substantiate these claims however my friend who works at FTE says that is not the case as far as he knows, certainly not from CTC anyhow.

That leaves easyJet which at first instance sounds good however they are in the process of their largest experienced pilot recruitment campaign and as far as I understand there are no shortage of takers. This seriously limits the amount of places for future CTC guys as eJ will surely continue hiring experienced guys when they can get them for the price of cadets.

As for guys who haven't finished yet being given their TR dates already I'm trying desperately to get hold of another friend of mine that has been in the pool for a couple of months now and didn't have his date when we chatted on Tuesday so sounds a bit fishy to me.

As far as I know there haven't been any recent guys go through the system for flybe and Monarch only took a few anyhow. Also I understood that the main flow of BAFPP guys will finish late this year, early next but again this is only a few a month. Don't forget the BAFPP program was almost instantly cut short after it was released due to the BMI merger and although a CTC company manages them they are still split across 3 schools not just CTC watering the numbers down yet again.

As for your questions:
1. CTC has been trying to double the intake for over a year now but weren't able to because of the bottleneck in NZ. If the courses are now much larger I would like to believe this problem has been resolved. I would be cautious of believing this is due to eJ, its more to do with new owners looking for a nice ROI.
2. Interesting rumour, last time I looked into their Qatar relationship the first 20 guys that were sent out there last year were still not flying as they didn't have the training capacity for cadets available. This may have changed now and I will check into that but I've heard nothing different so far.

@Vipersrt10

Re Qatar, I assume you are referring to the new CTC MPL program with your numbers and therefore they refer to uptake and not placement (see my previous paragraph)?

[steve.wythe]

@Dilan12345

I've booked 5 November. Anyone else going?

[planedrive]

Thank you for the replies @Mr-P and @Vipersrt10

I think you misunderstood slightly on my second question - I understand that 6 cadets every 2 months will be embarking on the Qatar MPL, but I have also heard that approximatley 6-10 cadets COULD be taken each month from next year - it's well known that Qatar want 800 new pilots for replacement/expansion in 2014. I feel as though this doesn't add up myself as, like you said, the previous Wings guys in Qatar are still not/only just flying.

With regards to Thompson, they are the only ones I know of actually taking cadets as a mate of mine has just started TR on the 738 with them - although he did work as CC before starting at CTC. He also mentioned that 8 guys are now with BACF rather than CTC.

A further question: CTC says they have links with something like 19 partner airlines - how many of them do they actively place cadets with?

[Vipersrt10]

Guys, stick to the facts please. Stop the rumours,

it's well known that Qatar want 800 new pilots for replacement/expansion in 2014. I feel as though this doesn't add up myself as, like you said, the previous Wings guys in Qatar are still not/only just flying.

Qatar 800 pilots in 2014? source?

That leaves easyJet which at first instance sounds good however they are in the process of their largest experienced pilot recruitment campaign and as far as I understand there are no shortage of takers. This seriously limits the amount of places for future CTC guys as eJ will surely continue hiring experienced guys when they can get them for the price of cadets.

They want an equal balance between experienced vs non-experienced. Company is doing very well so enough room left for non exprienced guys / girls.

[planedrive]

@vipersrt10

IN FOCUS: Qatar Airways looks for pilots as deliveries ramp up (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/370686/)

"The airline, which employs a total of 1,800 flightcrew, needs to recruit 750 pilots this financial year" - This is for 2012/13 Fiscal year, although I have recollection of the same sort of announcement for 2013/14 - however no source.

Does anyone know how many airlines CTC actively place cadets with? (I currently have in the last 2 years: EZY, Qatar, Thomson, BACF, Jet2 - are there any others?)

[Vipersrt10]

"The airline, which employs a total of 1,800 flightcrew, needs to recruit 750 pilots this financial year" - This is for 2012/13 Fiscal year, although I have recollection of the same sort of announcement for 2013/14 - however no source.

So it's just a wild guess..

Does anyone know how many airlines CTC actively place cadets with? (I currently have in the last 2 years: EZY, Qatar, Thomson, BACF, Jet2 - are there any others?)

Monarch

[Mr-P]

@Vipersrt10

Quote:
That leaves easyJet which at first instance sounds good however they are in the process of their largest experienced pilot recruitment campaign and as far as I understand there are no shortage of takers. This seriously limits the amount of places for future CTC guys as eJ will surely continue hiring experienced guys when they can get them for the price of cadets.
They want an equal balance between experienced vs non-experienced. Company is doing very well so enough room left for non exprienced guys / girls.

You are correct in that eJ did originally say that they wanted an equal balance of pilots. That means 125 of the expected 250 positions. Not exactly earth shattering when you consider CTC trains more than 250 cadets a year and maybe even more than 300 now of which only a few are tagged to other airlines.

On top of this some people within eJ claim that in fact 200 of the 250 places will go to experienced guys leaving only 50 cadets for the 2014 line-up.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/511068-non-type-rated-easyjet-recruitment-66.html#post8096090

[contacttower118.2]

Worth mentioning, in case this has been missed, that there has been a change in procedure from EZY's point of view when it comes to the Wings hold pool.

They are now apparently interviewing chunks from the pool and while taking most presented to them have rejected a few as well...presumably putting them back in the pool. They used to take them straight from CTC with no further questions asked but they've wised up to the fact that the finished product is not always what it should be...:suspect:

[planedrive]

CTC announced today that they are 'enhancing' their course for 2014 - and upping the price at the same time. Do you think that the cadets currently in the system will get the extra benefits (particularly the UPART training) or not? The information is linked below for you to peruse and discuss!

CTC Wings Cadet Programme | Pilot Sponsorship UK | CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/europe/courses/cadet_programme)

[giggitygiggity]

No, I have it on authority that current cadets will not benefit from these improvements as they haven't signed these contracts. New cadets signing contracts from January (or whenever the change is due) onwards will benefit.

[Fmfox]

Just a quick question:
With this scheme you get placed into the hold pool I believe, at the recent open day I was told the maximum time anybody has to wait for a job in this pool is around 6 months. My question is that during this 6 months is it not very difficult to maintain the high standards that you would have reached when finishing the CTC course - this could mean that you would perform badly on a sim assessment and potentially not get the job. Also, does anybody know if the 6 months quoted is true and if all cadets do get permanent jobs after finishing this course? Thank you!

[FANS]

It's called a price increase for little extra cost to CTC! Got to keep their new owners happy.

[GoProPilot]

Hi All,

I have been through the search facility and trawled my way into many posts looking for advice regarding the selection.

majority of posts with decent info are backdated to mid-to-late 2000's.

Just wanted to know from someone whos been recently, the maths part.

1)Still 15 questions in 15 minutes?
2)Are the questions multiple choice?
3)Are you given a specific time for each question? so you cant progress forward or backwards through the questions at free will?(so for example you could be on question 10 at only 6mins in/ can you skip forward or back at free will?
4)obviously I don't want anyone to give away the actual questions but I have been practicing

#Long multiple/division eg 5687x478 285/15 (+- too)
#Ratios
#Basic algebra (real basic like x-10=60 Whats X
#squares,cubes and s+ cube roots
#area of squares, rectangles, triangles(was there any Circle questions using PIE?)
#Speed distance time, but i what context I don't know, are the some fictional problems that could potentially catch you off guard? like two aircraft heading towards each other at X speed, how long before they meet? or is it a simple as you travel 20miles in 10 minutes, how fast etc?

What other topics should I cover, I know its GCSE level I just want to make sure I do not fail this test, I know people say its easy, they only want your money etc but id rather not fail at this stage.!

Hope someone can advise.

Thanks.

[steve.wythe]

Hi GoProPilot,

I just went through selection six days ago (passed and everything), and so should be in a good position to answer your questions.

There are indeed still 15 questions in as many minutes, all multiple choice and all pretty easy - though I could have just been lucky. You can spend as much time as you like on each question, and go back to completed questions.

There's no algebra involved aside from two questions where you're asked to work out the weight of fuel using a specific gravity value, but this is all very carefully and clearly explained, and certainly nothing to worry about.

I only really practised long division and multiplication, and finished with a good few minutes to spare - I'd really recommend learning Vedic maths using TecMath (tecmath - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/tecmath)) for this test. If you can manage a long division problem in around a minute, you're at around the same level I was on the day Disclaimer: this isn't to say that you absolutely won't get any other types of questions, or to contradict anyone else's advice, but rather that I didn't come across those other ones.

If you want to know anything else about the selection day, let me know and I'll try to help.

[steve.wythe]

@planedrive,

CTC have an introductory offer where you can currently benefit from the new additional parts of the course at the 2013 price - a bargain at £86,800. This is only offered, however, if you begin your course before January 2014; everyone else thereafter pays £89,800.

[GoProPilot]

Hi Steve

Thank you for your reply.

Thank you for answering my questions I really appreciate that and your blog is outstanding(since you've been there recently its totally relevant).

I am practicing everything you've said.

I am applying to wings without any attachment to airline like easyjet MPL or Monarch, flybe etc

So what worries me with the recent introduction of the EASYJET MPL and Monarch MPL and even the BA FPP+Qatar surely all these cadets will get the jobs first, where does this leave the normal WINGS cadets? because those airlines where already taking cadets from the pool. EZ, mon and BA going to have right hand seats for all the 20+ per month coming out of wings!?

Where are these cadets going to go (to keep their 99.9% placement record)

Is this flexi crew thing with Easy still going on? Did they mention it to you in the presentation in the morning?

Cheers.


Hi GoProPilot,

I just went through selection six days ago (passed and everything), and so should be in a good position to answer your questions.

There are indeed still 15 questions in as many minutes, all multiple choice and all pretty easy. You can spend as much time as you like on each question, and go back to completed questions.

There's no algebra involved aside from two questions where you're asked to work out the weight of fuel using a specific gravity value, but this is all very carefully and clearly explained and certainly nothing to worry about.

I only really practised long division and multiplication, and finished with a good few minutes to spare - I'd really recommend learning Vedic maths using TecMath (tecmath - YouTube) for this test. If you can manage a long division problem in around a minute, you're sorted.

If you want to know anything else about the selection day, I wrote a blog post about it (Glorified Bus Driver | A totally original and unique blog about training as a student commercial pilot.) - if you have any questions after that, let me know and I'll try to help.
steve.wythe is offline Report Post

[steve.wythe]

Happy to help, and I'm glad you liked it.

The FlexiCrew arrangement is indeed still going on, in fact they mentioned in the morning presentation that the vast majority of their cadets go on to work for easyJet as FlexiCrew employees. Considering their recent substantial profits and new aircraft orders this doesn't look likely to slow down, but then you never know.

As for the trend for larger airlines taking on cadets through MPL courses, it's hard to say without many figures available, but it does look as if the proportion of cadets going through this route will only increase. But that's not to say there's no market for us untagged lot: an airline will only take on the minimum number they anticipate needing through MPL courses. If one of those airlines does particularly well and decides to expand, as with easyJet, there's a pool of graduating cadets of a decent standard ready to go.

Besides, there are always airlines that won't run these schemes with whom we'll stand a chance.

[irishoperator]

I would take whatever CTC tell you in a presentation designed with the explicit intent to sell a course to you with a very large pinch of salt; it's of course in their interest to paint a rosy picture which may not correlate to reality.

Also there is no evidence that MPL scheme airlines are taking the minimum number of pilots they need as you put it, for all we know they could be taking on vastly more pilots than they currently need with a view to job creation in the future.

It seems more likely that these schemes will increase in number and capacity - and let's face it CTC will not be bothered whether pilots join airlines through the hold pool or through the schemes they run as they get paid either way.

[jerryaw]

is there anyone has done the ctc selection recently? i really need your help..because i have decided to do my selection with ctc in jan 2014. i dont know how is the selection like.all i know they have maths test , aptitude test,teamwork?,and 1 to 1? just wondering how many aptitude test they will given? and how is the teamwork like? i will be very grateful if anyone can help me.

[G-CFMX]

Hey guys heading back in December for my reassessment with ctc, failed on the maths by one mark (bummer) anyone else heading down on the 5th?

[flygirlhopeful]

I'm going on the 4th, anyone else in this boat?

[flightless_bird]

Complete change of topic but still relates to CTC Wings.

Can anyone who has just finished with CTC in NZ help me with this please...

When CTC teach you how prepare for a nav flight they get you to draw a top hat at each turning point. The hat has three layers and something goes in each layer (altitude to fly the leg etc). Can someone tell me what they are please.

Also, at each enroute check between turning points we were taught to draw a circle, divide it in half and then divide one of the halves in half once more. Again something went in the semi-circle and the quarter circles. I think it was something like expected time of arrival, actual time of arrival and time to next check. Can someone confirm this for me please.

Thanks in advance.

[Jwscud]

So that's where all the extra money at CTC goes? Hats and circles on the chart?

All sounds a bit like over complicating things to me.

[propilot9]

Changing topic here, I've done a lot of research and reading on CTC and it seems that many do tend to go on to join their partnered airlines after finishing the course.

I am curious, have any cadets gone to join other airlines that aren't partnered with CTC? Have any ever gone to, just to name a few, Norwegian Air Shuttle or Air France or KLM, Transavia, Vueling, TAP Portugal, SAS, Iceland Air, Ryanair, FlyNiki or AirBerlin etc etc? Are cadets bound to the holding pool and the airlines that intake from that pool? What are the job prospects of joining any airline practically?

OAA used to have an employment page on their website listing different airlines and numbers about graduates and their employment stats. Unfortunately CTC never had one like this but it would be very useful. This information would be valuable and appreciated!

Cheers and many safe landings!!

[Bealzebub]

It is rather less linear and more dynamic than that. Put simply, yes, you can complete the course and find work wherever it might be available. You are not tied to any holding pool. Many airlines will stipulate minimum experience requirements for direct entry pilots. Unless they operate a cadet scheme of their own it is unlikely that many graduating pilots with only their training hours would satisfy those requirements. Those airlines that do operate cadet programmes will (in the majority of cases) affiliate to particular Flight Training Organisations.

CTC operates a number of programmes leading to the completion of the basic professional licence qualifications, as well as providing intermediate and in some cases part of the advanced training requirements for the transition into specific airlines cadet programmes. These courses follow a number of pathways although much of the training programme is common to all of them. For example the "Wings cadet" course applies selective criteria for the completion of the licence programme, as well as the Airline Qualification Course (AQC). Successful graduation leads into the primary selection pool for many of the "partner airlines" that draw from it, in accordance with their own current requirements as they exist from time to time.

CTC also offers a "Wings IPP" programme when a candidate either doesn't satisfy the "wings cadet" selection criteria, when it may not be available, or when they elect that particular route. This programme utilizes exactly the same training syllabus as the cadet programme, but the risk shifts more to the candidate proving their ability in order to be placed in the primary selection pool upon graduation. It also doesn't include some of the intermediate costs (AQC for example) that are an integrated part of the cadet programme.

Some airlines (For example British airways FPP, and some other airlines pre-selection programmes,) utilize the wings cadet programme with a conditional offer of employment at onset. Depending on the level of financial support as a part of the contract, these graduates may be financially bound to discharge their commitments before they would be able to seek alternative employment in the (probably unlikely) event that they should elect to. If the conditional offer of employment could not be fulfilled by the airline, then it is likely the graduate would be free to take up any other offer that might be available at that time, either through the "holding pool" or through the open market.

Quite a few graduates of these programmes do go on to fulfil their careers at other airlines as a result of the experience they have gained with their initial placements. Once you have reached that rung on the experience ladder then the open market is available to you.

The enormous hurdle that ab-initio pilots face, is in finding the opportunities to get the experience levels that many airlines demand. The airlines that are partners of CTC provide (from time to time, and absolutely as their own commercial requirements dictate,) just those opportunities. It is a very cold world for low hour pilots seeking those opportunities without specific integration. Airlines without cadet programmes usually source their F/O's from the experienced open market. Without that experience they are likely to tell you to come back when you do have it.

[propilot9]

I understand many do tend to go into the partnered airlines with the aim of building up hours and if they so elect to, transition onto other airlines in the open market. Reality sets in, lots of hours satisfied and a few decide they want to move into a "giant" airline.

What I mainly want to know is, have they're ever been Wings cadets, that right after finishing up their ab-initio fATPL, have satisfactorily secured an offer of employment with an airline that's not part of the CTC airline partners?

I've read in this forum some have had to wait months until finally entering either easyJet or another partner airline when in the "holding pool". I am hoping to get a good picture of the overall situation once you've finished the course. Perhaps rather than having to wait for so long there are a few opportunities with other airlines that may be interesting too.

It's really the "hurdle" you're saying which I want to have more awareness of. I have a good idea how competitive and dark it is once you're done. And I've read stories of people making tremendous efforts into securing their first job. But through CTC, would you perhaps say this "hurdle" is somewhat less of a jump than going to other ATOs?

Cheers!

[Bealzebub]

What I mainly want to know is, have they're ever been Wings cadets, that right after finishing up their ab-initio fATPL, have satisfactorily secured an offer of employment with an airline that's not part of the CTC airline partners?
I am sure there probably have been, but not many, because the partners are the USP ("unique" selling point!) Nothing prevents you ordinarily from completing the course and seeking out employment on your own, however, and without wishing to repeat myself, this is a very difficult endeavour. Nevertheless, in principle, it is possible. I am sure there must have been graduates who have done this, but I doubt they exist in any significant number, and of course the partners are the constituent part of the advanced portion of the wings cadet course.

Outside of a structured cadet scheme there are very few airlines that would consider applicants with this level of low experience, and that would be the problem that would constantly resurface. Nevertheless, if you can find one, that would be fine.

I've read in this forum some have had to wait months until finally entering either easyJet or another partner airline when in the "holding pool". I am hoping to get a good picture of the overall situation once you've finished the course. Perhaps rather than having to wait for so long there are a few opportunities with other airlines that may be interesting too.

Yes. Airline recruitment very much depends on the airlines actual and projected need for the forthcoming season. They may well have an idea of how many pilots they are going to need in the future, but it is only ever going to be an abstract figure. The real need, and hence hard recruitment, takes place only a few short months before the actual need arises. For that reason alone (and there are many others,) it is impossible to forecast with any accuracy what a recruitment situation is likely to be in anything other than the short term.

Many airlines (including partner airlines) complete the majority of their training in the Winter/Spring period. This is often the period when the operational requirements of the company allow for a greater availability of training tracks. Ab-initio advanced training of this nature is extremely demanding of those resources, and again it tends to focus those opportunities into this Winter/Spring period. The result is that where cadet vacancies do arise they tend to do so in a seasonal fashion. Outside of these seasons the "pools" tend to fill up, and they then empty as the recruitment season gets under way. By way of example, I have seen cadets graduate straight into partner airlines without any waiting at all in the last 24 months. However graduates immediately in line behind this group then had to wait almost a year for the next sequential vacancies(with the same partner) to arise. Therefore you should allow for this very real possibility in your planning. You should also bear in mind that the airline placements depend completely on the customer airlines requirements and their individual terms and conditions (which vary) at any given point in time.

In summary, you simply cannot guarantee anything and you need to be very aware of that. You should also be aware that the first tier airline market for low hour pilots may not be what you imagine it to be. Those airlines that offer cadet programmes to low hour pilots tend to do so in conjunction with specific FTO's. Those that do not, may require you to spend over a third of the entire fATPL syllabus cost (in addition) on the type rating alone. Clearly, the partner airline programmes offer significant advantages, but again, they are seasonal and very much dependent on the state of the market within each airlines own sphere at any given point in time.

[giggitygiggity]

It may be worth noting that for those who seek employment on their own may be withdrawn from the hold pool thus missing out on the job offers. This is second hand info but worth investigating further before you sign your life away with the intention of seeing if perhaps Cathay will hire you directly after training!

[pilotchute]

Is it true that going to CTC merely gets you a guarantee of an interview with an airline partner if you finish the course with first time passes in everything?

That much money for an interview is a bit of a scam don't you think?

[Bealzebub]

No, it doesn't guarantee anything. The partner airlines make their selection from the graduates that are available. That selection process is likely to involve an interview. Those graduates that I am aware of who came to us, were certainly interviewed. The majority of those interviewed were selected for placement, and almost all of them were offered employment contracts at the end of their placement periods. I understand that trainees receive training and guidance on interview preparation.

First time passes in everything, isn't a prerequisite that I am aware of, but it might be for a particular company. Many of the graduates may well achieve first time passes at the various testing stages and that is good. However flight training is a dynamic and if a candidate required additional training to meet a standard at some point during that training, that certainly wouldn't preclude them a placement at the partner airlines that I am aware of.


That much money for an interview is a bit of a scam don't you think? Yes, if you think life is full of guarantees it probably would appear that way to you. The partner airlines are separate companies with their own requirements, terms and conditions. If they have no requirement then they will be offering no interviews. If they do have a requirement, then the FTO will put forward candidates from which they can make their own selection. That is likely to involve an interview. An interview is part of the process if you are selecting cadet pilots as indeed it is if you are selecting pilots with many thousands of hours of relevant experience. An experienced pilot within the airline is also going to be interviewed for appointment opportunities within the company (training, administration, management etc.) It is also increasingly becoming a part of the regular "personal development" process in most companies.

Those CTC graduates that I regularly fly with, don't regard it as "a bit of a scam." They were all interviewed as a part of the process. I am not aware that any were "guaranteed" an interview with anybody, although given the high level of placement, most obviously went through that process by default.

[planedrive]

Interesting news posted by CTC! Do Oxford still operate out of this Airport or have they moved?

Global airline pilot training company CTC Aviation to open new Crew Training Centre in North America | CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/news/article/global_airline_pilot_training_company_ctc_aviation_to_open_n ew_crew_trainin)

[average-punter]

planedrive: I've been told that CTC are occupying the old OAA facilities as they have moved their operation to another airport close by. Hamilton is still remaining open, cadets from some courses currently undergoing ground school in Southampton have now been given the option to complete the initial flight training either in Arizona or Hamilton.

[FANS]

Probably best not to be the guinea pigs for Arizona then!

[Ironside757]

Does anyone know if cadets will always get a choice between Arizona or Hamilton?

Surely the majority of people would prefer Hamilton...

[contacttower118.2]

Anyone know what the hold pool situation is at CTC at the moment - easy still taking some or are things grinding to a halt...?

[ManWithoutSkin]

Does anyone know if cadets will always get a choice between Arizona or Hamilton?

Surely the majority of people would prefer Hamilton...

I went to the open day last Saturday and asked about this. They said they haven't worked out how it is going to work yet, whether cadets get the choice or not. They did say that the Arizona cadet's training would take three months less that Hamilton.

Anyone know what the hold pool situation is at CTC at the moment - easy still taking some or are things grinding to a halt...?

They couldn't give an answer on the pool, no one seemed to know a figure.

[momo95]

"They couldn't give an answer on the pool, no one seemed to know a figure."

I found that to be the case for a lot of my questions.

Does anyone here know whether after passing CTC's phase 2 and failing the phase 3 interview if I can go straight to phase 3 upon reapplying or do I have to repeat phase 2 ? Strangely enough no one could give me an answer on Saturday. I also couldn't seem to find an answer in this.

Thanks

[Catalystman]

Pay another selection fee and you will find out no doubt!


Regarding Arizona, I would guess in the next few years the whole of training will be done in Arizona, fuel substantially less and its maybe a third of the distance to travel so even cadet air fares and travel time are substantially reduced. The NZD has risen a lot in recent years agst the GBP and the cost in NZ would be substantially more and this has been eating into the bottom line as the HQ are based in the UK. Government incentives to local businesses would also play a part, I would expect the US to be able to give more incentives for a business to relocate than the NZ gov to retain an existing business.


If you read the contract you sign it says they can send you anywhere to complete your training and you have to comply so I would expect it would be chosen for you then made compulsory.


As with most of CTC they can reduce the schedule and bring the time down which in theory should bring the price down to the cadet but I would bet my hat there is no price reduction, this is extra margin for CTC by relocating operations to a more tax efficient and cost efficient base.


Its simply a capital investment as they are currently cash rich due to Private Equity Funding & a long term cost saving/profit increasing exercise.

[planedrive]

What you are saying has neither basis nor evidence at all. CTC have made it quite clear that New Zealand and Phoenix will operate side by side. They are still investing heavily in New Zealand and have purpose built facilities both at the airport and for accommodation. Also - remember that not all of CTC's students come from the UK so for a large amount of them, New Zealand is closer than Phoenix. CTC brings a lot of money to the economy of Hamilton and the wider Waikato, so the incentive to keep CTC in the area is huge.

You're aversion to CTC is well known on these forums, and your experience can be tracked back through the various threads you have started/posted in, so I would advise anyone reading this to take what he's saying with a very large pinch of salt. If anyone wants a more balanced view of CTC in the recent past then please feel free to send me a private message.

[Catalystman]

As with all posts including mine take it with a barrel of salt.


I do recommend CTC but ONLY if your on a sponsored/tagged scheme (I particularly recommend BA but competition is fierce), do your PPL while you apply to BA first and then second choice with the MPLs etc, I would go modular rather than Wings as even if you get a job through Wings, pay is sooooo low, you will need a 2nd job.


Okay so here is one for you to answer I am a student UK based (which is where the bulk of the 'customer' base is) what is the price difference between doing my CTC Wings course in the US which is 3 months shorter to doing it in NZ where its 3 months longer? Answer ZERO!


So I disagree its all about cost, most of the schemes are for UK airlines so why not train in the UK where you will fly in UK airspace in UK airports and indeed across the channel to expose yourself to continental routes where you will fly and have UK weather/ATC. One reason COST as the same that modular go to the US to hour build as its cheaper but then hang on is CTC cheaper because the flying is done abroad NOOOOOOOOOOOO its more expensive so I still cant figure out why you pay a double premium?! Yes, I can CTC charges UK prices (with CTC mark-up) in the US/NZ hence the only reason to pay this huge mark-up of around £25,000 is if you have a conditional job offer because with the likes of BA you will make it back within 2 years while the others on Wings are on in some cases I have heard are surviving on less than £75 a week once loan repayments have been taken into consideration. That is a horrible position for a pilot to be in charge of a low cost aircraft while Cash Taking Captains buy private planes for their enjoyment.CTC flies higher with private equity backing - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/businessclub/9953132/CTC-flies-higher-with-private-equity-backing.html#disqus_thread)

[planedrive]

Why would you recommend a company that you so publicly slated for being sloppy and disorganized in another recent (now closed so I can't take exact quotes) thread?

Of course the FPP and the various MPL's provide better security of the final job, BUT 98% of all Wings cadets that graduate successfully have been placed with a partner airline - which in the end is what you are training for, is it not? As for your suggestion that you will need a second job if you are only a lowly Wings Cadet on your way to Easyjet - perhaps you should take a read of this article from BALPA last year.

https://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/CASUALISATION-BREAKTHROUGH-IN-EASYJET.aspx

I wouldn't say that with £38,000pa plus repayment of your £69,000 security bond over x number of years, many people would feel the need to take a second job. Of course I cannot comment on some of the other airlines but I'm sure people like @Bealzebub will be able to comment on the airline they have particular knowledge of. Personally I know no recent Wings graduates that have needed a second job.

Finally, if you had made it to New Zealand, you would see that your comment about the UK being the primary market is not really true. I would say that about 1/2 of the Cadet population of CTC is British with the remainder made up of citizens from Hong Kong, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, Australia, New Zealand and most noticeably the Japanese, who send out similar (albeit slightly smaller) numbers as the UK.

[centropy]

Planedrive, not quite correct and I would expect the cadets you know of personally will need/have needed financial support which perhaps was parental instead of a second job.

You do not start on that salary until after your 2nd year and there are no flight allowances on top until year 3. In the first year you receive £1200pm for 9 months and then an hourly rate for the remaining 3. This is circa 20k gross equivalent. You do not receive the security bond back.

If you didn't receive your parental support up front and so had to take a loan for the course the average repayment is approximately £1400pm.

As you can clearly see without some support you will either need a second job just to pay the loan, let alone eat, or take another loan/use credit cards to supplement your monthly income.

I am not putting anything down, and think it is one of the better opportunities over the longer term, but I do think anyone considering their options needs to have the correct facts.

BTW I throughly enjoyed my time with CTC, and while there will always be exceptions believe you get out what you put in.

[Catalystman]

I am trying to be fair and realise I come across as bias to FTO staff.


I am not about slating a particular company in this case CTC, its about looking out for people/individuals so they are aware of all aspects rather than falling for hook, line and sinker to the fancy marketing and '98%' chance of a job from FTO staff on this site!


CTC is a minima course so its the bare minimum which is fine if your okay and are up to speed, I recommend the BA backed schemes for all the FTOs. You are big players but people need to be aware that you throw a lot of carrots and then once your there its not quite the truth (in my view).


Whether you like it or not FTOs are hear to stay and will grow & shrink according to market forces but I am just tired of people like you saying its the best thing since sliced bread, its not, they can be horrible, sterile, places but they can also be great places that people enjoy a lot and make long lasting relationships but the reality is not what is published and my posts are to build this awareness that there are other ways out there and the market is unfairly controlled by these giants, it isn't allowed due to regulatory laws in banking, insurance, telecoms and indeed with the forced sale of UK airports so to some extend in aviation (which is a very different industry by any standards operating on a different planet really). So why not look out more for the people who don't have a voice ie the pilots themselves! A lot cant speak as they are scared of losing their jobs or have the CTC gatekeeper say No!


I have done some further research on the schools and from my experience if you aren't too hot on your technical knowledge/theory you will struggle and get lower ATPL results, okay you pass but if you get a lower result, our chances of not only a job (but a good job) decrease so your at the back of the queue.


For Mums & Dads about to sign their house off with BBVA this is worth considering.


Out of the big 3, CTC ground school is the shortest 5 months, Oxford 6 months and FTE (Spain) 8 months. For true ab initio's doing 5 or 6 months of straight theory may not be the best for you, whats your GCSE and A-level results, be honest to yourself? (but it may be the best for you), I know one thing that is helping me now doing my PPL is reading the theory and then going up for a lesson, it just clicks and that's what you do at FTE, so you fly and do your theory at the same time, I think that is an excellent idea and it works for me, I think its faster. The CAA allow you 18months to sit all your ATPL exams so why take 5months and risk getting low scores, (one reason COST). Of course if you ask CTC/Oxford they will tell you the opposite, maybe try it out at home, read your books for 3 hours then compare it with a 30min lesson at your local airfield?


For prospective students, have a think about that, it may work better for you and I am finding it more fun, it also seems to be a better way to learn as the FTE course is a few months shorter, I find theory and practical best work hand in hand rather than in 2 different countries. FTE is about the same price but its fully catered which is good in that you can spend more time studying but then again that extra dessert wont be so good for the waste line!!


Okay 98%?! Right that's a big figure to slam out there, now can you please back it up with something solid, if its true then share it with others, it sounds too good to be true!! (do you know that 87% stats are made up.......lol) So what year, how many students, does that include people in the pool for 3.5 years, tagged cadets? From my experience what CTC say and then deliver is very different. I have a picture of this stat on the wall outside Singapore classroom so cant upload it here but ping me and I will send it to anyone, it says 98% pass all ATPL subjects at first attempt and 92% average pass across all subjects, the head ground school instructor told me those are indeed true when I asked him standing outside the board its posted on but its 8 years old! I compared it with my class average and its 100% codswallop!


Your BALPA article link doesn't work, pls re post:
404 - File or directory not found.

The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

I agree that the majority ie 51% get jobs at the end of the day but often they are on this £1,200 a month for 6 months then after that they have no job and are back on the pile.


Two chaps I spoke to now at Monarch on the CTC Graduation day, waited quite a few months in the pool, and had to get an interim job, 1 I think at the supermarket. 1 ended up getting a job but on a 75% contract so he was annoyed and they wouldn't up his hours but had to take it. The next batch of people a few months later got 100% contracts so he was quite upset but had to suck it up, next few years getting a 75% salary, so I guess he would count in your '98%' stat but that kind of sucks.....he said over Christmas 2013 he had one flight to do and was feeling the pinch.


Again its hard to just dispute numbers on a forum, you need accurate data as a source of truth which wont be published but from my experience 85% are British at CTC ( and I would say 95% are EU). Have a look at the pictures of the CPs on the wall and I think they would back my figures more than yours but if you have some data then share it and I am happy to be corrected.

[Catalystman]

You clearly know what you are talking about.


Re the bond, I never took it out as I was self funded so didn't really look at it, can you explain how it works for folks here, when is it actually paid back?


What happens if you don't get a job (which will happen to 2% of people if you take @planedrive's (http://www.pprune.org/members/384384-centropy) stats)?


Or are sick and cant make the repayments?


Or say you decide £20,000 a year is too low and your circumstances change and you need to get a job elsewhere, earning £25,000 do you still get the bond back?


£1,400 monthly repayments; that sounds huge? Are you sure that's right, my mortgage was no where near that!

[planedrive]

@Centropy - Apologies I should have made myself clearer. The changes to the easyjet contract are new as of June last year and again, my mistake with the link. I tried to put it in brackets and it took that as part of the web address - it should now be visible!

I did not mean to mislead anyone and as we all know, things change incredibly quickly in this industry.

Yes, you are on £1200 (tax free) for the first 8 months approx, again I should have made this clearer. You then move onto a CTC contract for the remaining time until you have 1 year service at Easy before moving onto the NEC of £38,000pa. You do now get the security bond back - this has been recently clarified and can be found on the CTC Wings facebook page for anyone particularly interested.

I agree that in the past it would have been very hard to live sustainably on the contracts provided but this has recently changed - with the graduates that I know personally.

@Catalyst - this will be my last post to you as it's obvious that you will not listen to anything that has been said on any thread to disrupt your discontent with CTC.
1) I do not work for CTC or any FTO.
2) Do CTC Wings Cadet graduates get offered jobs, providing they complete
the course to standards given when signing contracts? Yes.
3) I'm not sure how you can keep judging CTC, or any other FTO, that trains abroad as you have not partaken in any flight training abroad via these FTO's. As for the way CTC and Oxford do groundschool - I think the results speak for themselves.
4) The fact that people who graduated last August, and are now in the right hand seat flying the line for Easy and the way the CTC hold pool system works means that unless they have been declined after interviews, or refused job offers themselves, then there is no-one in the hold pool who has been there for 3.5 years. What you may be confusing is the CTC ATP pool which is completely separate to the CTC Wings pool and is indeed much slower moving.
5) As I said before, if you had got to Hamilton, you would have seen for yourself that not everyone is British or European. The Wings course are not the only Cadets that CTC take - there are international courses around the world. I'm sure anyone who has been there will agree with me.


As with any training providers, in any industry, all FTO's have their up and down sides. CTC is the only one I know a significant amount about which is why I have written these posts.

[Piloto2011]

FTO = nowadays ATO. Your = You're. :ok:

My apologies for not wanting to sift through every page of this thread to locate the info I am looking for...

Could anyone please confirm CTC's current price for their integrated course is 90,000 sterling?

On average, what's the mark-up for expenses not included in that figure such as food, flights to NZ and back to the UK, health insurance, car in NZ (?), and a possible extra for additional training required?

What do eJ/CTC charge Wings grads nowadays for the bus type?

Re the loan, when do the banks start charging interest?

So do I get this right Wings gads employed by eJ start on about 20,000 sterling in first year and then go onto NEC with 38,000 sterling?

I do not mean to bash anyone here, just looking for info.

Thank you.

[N757CM]

@Planedrive.

Hello, do you know when you get the security bond back. The only thing I find disspaointing about the ctc website is that it is quite unclear what happens to this bond. Is it only repaid to cadet if they take the 'cadet' route as opposed to the 'CTC FlexiCrew'.

I have recently been accepted on to CTC scheme and currently going through the process of making a decision.

I will hopefully be able to feedback further once I have spoken to bank and CTC directly.

Cheers

[Bealzebub]

The "bond" rather depends on where you end up. In principle it is the cost of your training course. You pay it, they provide the training. However the reason it is a "bond" and what actually happens is rather more complicated.

The nature of the training programme and the placement with a partner airline allows for the "bond" portion of the training costs to be assumed by the airline. This is tax advantageous from an input cost standpoint for the airline, and it has also has potential tax advantages for you.

Depending on the placement and whether or not the "bond" is transferred (purchased) by the customer airline, it might be repaid to you by way of monthly payments over a fixed period (5-7 years typically). These repayments (again depending on the airline) may be in addition to a cadet salary, or as part of that cadet salary. The level of that cadet salary likely reflecting the method of "repayment." The advantage to you is that a part of that repayment is not subject to income tax, but is subject to a smaller element of withholding tax. In any event it is advantageous to your net (bottom line) salary payment.

Some companies do not assume the "bond" and similarly if you are not placed for whatever reason or you obtain your own employment then the "bond" is simply passed across from the holding company to the training school.

In a nutshell that is how it works. The easiest viewpoint is that you are paying for training. Wave goodbye to the money in the same way you would paying for any training. Depending on where you end up, that money might be fed back to you but usually as part of a monthly salary payment. In that case you will gain a tax advantage (after the fact) such that part of your training costs were relieved from a tax viewpoint.

It is better not to get the idea that somebody is going to present you with a cheque for the "bond" portion of your costs and say "here is your money back." That isn't going to happen. However there are advantages to you, but they are spread over a fairly long period. Those advantages also do not apply with every partner. Those advantages are also subject to any future changes in inland revenue rules.

Again, it is important to understand that the repayment (if there is one) is completely dependent on the customer airline. Put simply, it is no longer your money, it is either the money that APL will use to pay your training costs, or it becomes the airlines money to keep or repay in whatever manner they see fit. This may go some way to explain why it is unclear.

If you want any further information I would need to obtain it from one of our cadets, but if you have a specific airline in mind you should be able to obtain it here, (after filtering the usual detritus!)

[momo95]

'The level of that cadet salary likely reflecting the method of "repayment"'

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe it just so happens that the cadet salary at ezy just so happens to be 12k less than a normal (d/e) one ? totally reflecting a £1,000 a month "repayment".

I agree in that it's best not to see this as a reimbursement as such but rather just a part of your salary.

[Bealzebub]

You would need somebody from that airline to confirm that, but it sounds about right. The £1000 is removed from the taxable portion of income and split into a capital/interest figure whereby a smaller portion of it is subject to a withholding tax charge.

The repayment programmes I am more familiar with, result in a sacrifice from the relevant salary scale of around £1150 per month (that scale being cadet and normal F/O or Captains scales for up to a maximum period of 84 months), and the money is then repaid back to the individual as described. It is a voluntary and elective arrangement, but given the tax benefits, one that most qualifying individuals seem to avail themselves of.

[OhISee]

Anybody due to start in June? Will be starting myself and interested to talk to anyone starting at the same time!

[giggitygiggity]

To clarify for anyone interested as there seems to be some confusion. Under the current system, on placement with easyjet you will be paid £1200/month for the first 8 months (tax free). After which you will transfer onto a CTC flexi crew contract (paid per scheduled block hour) until you are successfully employed directly by easyjet (under the New Entrant Contract).

You are eligible to start the contract with easyjet exactly 1 year after your first day with easyjet (so your first flying day regardless of who employs you). When you are taken on as a direct easyjet employee, you are eligible to start receiving your CTC Bond back at the rate of about £1000/month. This means that out of your annual salary of £38k, £12k or so will be paid by CTC and will be tax free. The other 26k will be paid by easyjet and is liable for tax. Also because of the standard personal allowance, you will only be paying tax on about 16k out of 38k per year until the bond is repaid or you take a contract abroad or leave easyjet.

[Bealzebub]

Yes. that is what the terms permit. However you should of course bear in mind that the interest on the whole balance of the loan continues to accrue from the time the loan is drawn down. You would be making no capital repayments for the first 24 months and only 75% of the (otherwise) regular capital payments for the next 24 months. As the loan has a finite length (although you can discharge it sooner) this will result in hefty repayments for the remaining life of the loan, in order to discharge the capital and the rolled up interest, together with the annual balance interest for the remainder of the loan period.

[Royalanhirst]

Hi,I have read over recent months several months many examples of your input onto this site.I have been trying to get the feel of the industry as my son is about to start with CTC Wings in a couple of months.
He has wanted to be an airline pilot all his life and has progressed through the ranks of the air cadets and got as much flying experience out of his time there as he possibly could.
I am uncertain of the future but believe that you have to start somewhere to become a pilot and so in for a penny in for a pound.
BBVA here we come.

[Timpsi]

Why would you pay for an education? Isn't that what's ruining the market for pilots around the world? People paying their way for jobs...

[Nelson15]

Because the chances of getting a civil flying job in the UK without paying for something along the way are precisely nil.

People have paid for education for hundreds of years, it's their choice to make!

[Royalanhirst]

Unfortunately here in the Uk we have to pay for post 18 education,whether it be uni or in our case a flight training school.

[mawright89]

And one I have made.... on CP123 starting August 25th. Cant wait to begin. Looking for others who are starting around the same time if anyone has any names.

Just a quick question, what is the average loan people are taking from BBVA? are they borrowing for living expenses also? I have been lucky and come into some money recently meaning I need only borrow the £89,800 (minus £2000 initial bond payment). Will this make a big difference in my loan repayments? BBVA are currently processing application and are not easy to get answers from.

[rowl4nd]

I am on CP123 starting 18th of August. Must be the same course?


Ive just sent my loan application for £70k, hoping to lend the rest off family. I have no idea for living expenses but I am giving myself £500 a month initially...

[mawright89]

Do you have the Airline Prep Course day on the 22nd? My meet and greet is the 21st. I wonder why we have the same CP number but are starting a week apart? I might have a quick convo with CTC and just confirm everything.

Looking forward to meeting you.

[Brad380]

Hi everyone. I'm planning to take the test for Qatar Wings in a couple of months time. Which software or website would you recommend me to best prepare for the aptitude test? I'll be grateful if you could also give me some details about what to expect in the aptitude test.

Thank you.

[doratheexplorer]

latest pilot jobs

[ben1]

I know people have spoken about the CTC maths tests a number of times on here but would anyone be able to tell me whether they are just straight up calculations for you to do or are they wordy questions where you have to figure out what calculations to do?

Cheers

[byrondaf]

Just calculations. £1 = $1.60, €1 = $1.40, what is £500 in €? gives three answers, just need to be able to estimate. Think there were 5 of these.

Aircraft burns 3000l fuel per hour, how much burnt in 3 hours 45 mins. About 3 or 4 of these.

Simple stuff really, it's just the time limit. 15 mins goes quick so make your own examples.

[ben1]

Thanks, much appreciated.

[byrondaf]

Anyone know how long it takes from passing selection to the first APD?

[Brad380]

Hi everyone,

For the maths part of the aptitude tests, is it mental arithmetic or are we allowed to use pen and paper?

Thanks

[rowl4nd]

pen and paper is provided

[propilot9]

You will be allowed to use pen and paper. Good luck with selection!

[Kainine]

I am on CP123 starting on 18th Aug, any of you doing the degree course?

[cygair]

Hi,

I just would like to know if my current french education is compatible with the common requirement (qatar, flybe, easyjet, ba ...). I have currently an engineer degree (master) in financial engineering , a bacheleor degree in physical measurment, my french baccalaureate, and my school brevet equivalent to GSCEs. Secondly, in France, we haven't distinction for master and bachelor degree, which result I must set in the application form ? Is it pass, credit or other and I specify "graduated" ?

[Smell the Coffee]

Apologies if this question has already been asked .

With respect to the "subsistence allowance" paid to grads of the CTC Wings course under the relevant arrangements, is this an 'all-in' allowance for the duration of line training, or is it exclusive of any hourly/duty pay?

[fede91]

Hi, i am 22 and i just completed a bachelor's degree in banking and finance. I have been admitted in a top tier business school in milan to do a master's but on the other hand I am really interested in a career in aviation! the only thing is that i am quite concerned about the future working prospects and if is worth all the money. Do you guys think i am too old to start now? Is there anyone that is attending CTC wings now ( is my target school) that can share his experience with me? feel free to reply here or to PM me

[propilot9]

22 years old can still be considered a "young" age to begin to pilot training! And from what I can see you possess a higher education besides just secondary school which makes you already a more appealing candidate than those just going straight into flight training from secondary school.

The airline industry is extremely volatile! There are ups and downs constantly. You can just tell by reading the news. You see airlines with profits and ones with losses and such. And, this industry is highly competitive too. In terms of employment, the fact that you possess a higher education, already helps you stand out from the crowd. The career of a pilot IMHO is one which in the long run has its compensation. But to get there, you have to be ready for sacrifice, a lot of will power and passion. It has to be something you REALLY want. If you have all this, I say go for it!

Remember also that a pilot's career is directly dependent on your personal health. If for whatever reason later you unfortunately aren't fit to fly (God please forbid), you'll have the higher education to help you find your next job. I hope that helps!

[JPFTEJerez]

Successfully completed selection for CTC and am starting 13th October. Just wanted to see if anyone is on CP125, would be good to speak to some people before the meet and greets.

Ps, ignore the username, made it before my selection at FTEJere lol

[Gally2]

Are you starting on the integrated course - "CTC Wings ATPL Integrated" by any chance?? I am doing the assessment soon. Can you give me any tips on how to practice for it? Any other hints would be greatly appreciated

[JohnBlair]

Are you starting on the integrated course - "CTC Wings ATPL Integrated" by any chance?? I am doing the assessment soon. Can you give me any tips on how to practice for it? Any other hints would be greatly appreciated

Me too, I'm doing the assessment on 17th. Any hint would be appreciated too

[JPFTEJerez]

Sorry for the late reply.
Yes I am starting the integrated atpl course at CTC.
My advice, play a lot of flight sim to get used to the inversion of the joy stick, it comes in handy, trust me. Also, really know your stuff about the CTC course (structure, fleet etc). Get a couple of flying hours if you can or if you haven't already. On the day, relax, stay focused on the task, read all the instructions and stay calm (calmness is key, don't stress out). In the group exercise just show your leadership qualities and be yourself, give opinions, encourage others to get involved and you'll be fine. I would say try and get a good sleep before it but it's very hard, especially if you're in a rubbish hotel with paper thin walls and an old man coughing and snoring all night lol. Good luck lads :ok:

[speedbird_cadet]

22 is definitely not too old be starting flight training.... If this is something you want to do then go for it. :O I'll be 37 when I start....and I'm not the oldest on my course.

[speedbird_cadet]

"In the group exercise just show your leadership qualities"

I would be extremely careful about trying to demonstrate leadership in the 'GROUP EXERCISE' - the clue here is in the title... they are looking for team work. I would advise against trying to dominate the group and be the 'leader'. Sure - give a bit of direction/guidance if things are going off track - but tread carefully.
:ok:

[JPFTEJerez]

I totally agree that you shouldn't try to dominate the group and I didn't mean it to come across that way. What I meant was that you should show that you can be a leader in a group situation, whether that be through encouraging others to contribute, delegating roles such as time keeper or log keeper etc... Being a leader doesn't necessarily dictate that you have to dominate the group but help lead it in a positive direction.

[speedbird_cadet]

you can be a leader in a group situation, whether that be through encouraging others to contribute, delegating roles such as time keeper or log keeper etc... Being a leader doesn't necessarily dictate that you have to dominate the group but help lead it in a positive direction.

Absolutely. Totally agree with that :ok:

[JPFTEJerez]

Cheers speedbird cadet, I'm glad we got our point across.
Ps. I'm just a little bit very jealous that you're on the ba fpp and get to fly for ba once you graduate, hopefully see you on the flight deck some day:ok:

[speedbird_cadet]

Thanks !!! - Although right now that day feels like a long time, and a heck of a lot of hard work away. :8

All the best for your course.

[Royalanhirst]

There are pro and cons for the right age to start a flight training course with a suitable training school.
The younger you start the more years you'll get up in the air is what it's all about,whereas the older you are, possibly the amount of material to be learnt to get to your goal might sink in easier.
Each to his/her own i say.

[JPFTEJerez]

I agree that there are pros and cons to different ages to start training but I disagree with what you said about being older and material "sinking in easier". I disagree because I think young men and women who come straight from school/college/university are used to full time studying and are more capable of learning and grasping new things, courtesy of their age. If an older person who has maybe been sitting in an office job for say 5 years were to start flight training I think it would feel a lot more intense than someone coming from that studying environment and mentality.

[JPFTEJerez]

I'm CP125 and I start in October so I'm guessing CP124

[pilotchute]

So at the end can you guys tell me what plans you have for getting your first flying job?

Going to CTC isn't a guaranteed job.

[average-punter]

It certainly isn't a guaranteed job. I do moan sometimes about the way they conduct themselves when dealing with their cadets but when it comes to setting up their cadets with job interviews and helping them to pass those interviews they seem pretty good. I have heard of a few casualties along the way but this is mainly down to poor attitude, inadequate performance or often a combination of both.

[pilotchute]

So CTC line you up an interview and you mess it up. What next? Do they help with a second interview? I doubt it. Some people wait 18 months for this golden interview and miss out so what then? Tesco for 10 years to pay your debt?

[steve.wythe]

Yes, they do.

[pilotchute]

Steve do tell what the policy is at CTC NZ. I'm talking about Europe here.

[doz111]

A fairly good description of what happens at the end of your training with regards to getting a job is given in a cadet blog on the CTC website.

"The responsibility of placing cadets from the hold pool has recently changed hands, and is now handled by a branch of CTC called Airline Recruitment Ltd (ARL). There were a few teething problems during their take over of the pool, but all in all they're ok to deal with. They send out a monthly update e-mail giving the current job situation and any opportunities that are on the horizon, and there seems to be a lot of activity at the moment which is great news for anyone finishing soon! There is now basically a rule of 2 in the hold pool. This means you can turn-down up to two opportunities, be unsuccessful in up to two airline assessments, or be in the hold pool for a maximum of 2 years. After that, you're on your own! I think as there's so many people coming through CTC at the moment, they need to implement some rules or the hold pool will be huge"

[pilotchute]

A cadet blog on the CTC website? I would be very sceptical of anything written on there.

It seems the chances of getting a job being a CTC graduate seem a bit better than the other big schools. Just remember there are plenty of CTC grads who haven't secured a flying job and are paying back big loans with nothing to show for it.

Just remember CTC are a business. Selling CPL courses is what they do. When your dealing with sales people you have to be very good at telling the sales pitch from the facts. They are always going to tell you a shortage of pilots is just around the corner and the industry is on the up. They will then tell you if you don't act now you may miss out.

They all talk the talk when money is involved.

[planedrive]

@pilotchute you seem very bitter about something... did you get rejected from ctc? If you read through the blogs you would see it's not all positive about ctc, but they intend to give a real view on whats occurring at the time. One i just read talked about ctc being so unorganized that the first cadets they sent to arizona will actually finish their training in NZ as they hadn't organized their new da42's to be delivered to AZ yet!

If CTC do anything well it's the job placement. at the moment, cadets are coming out of AQC and getting application packs for airlines the week after. Flybe, Easyjet and BA have all taken cadets in the last 2 months and there are more selecion days coming up soon. You get 2 opportunities so if you do 'mess up' an interview, ctc will help you to get another one - basically what @doz111 said.

[pilotchute]

Planedrive,

I work as a pilot and didn't go to CTC for training. The place that I work in now sees a a constant stream of hopefuls turning up weekly with a fresh cpl from one of the sausage factories in the uk/eu.

The recurrent theme is that they have paid huge sums of money with the promises of interviews with easy/flybe etc. Reality is they may have gotten an interview or two but then they are on their own. If they were paying modular prices then getting an interview at the end is a bonus but when your getting close to 100k pounds before being typed I would expect to be walking straight out of a DA42 and into a jet. This is the way it's sold but the reality is it doesn't work like that.

Doing a CTC assessment and passing simply means they think you can pass the course in the given timeframe. A job interview is a different beast all together. Ask the guys aimhigh is talking about. I have heard rumours that sometimes interviews are held and 30-40 people are called but only 1 or 2 were ever going to get a job. Do that a few times and hey presto the pool is empty and you got your "shot" at a job. Waiting around for three assessments could have you waiting a while.

Also be wary of the "stories" about easy and BA all taking people recently. Some of these guys could have interviewed months and in Qatars case years ago. The big schools love these rumours as they keep classes full and the money rolling in.

[JPFTEJerez]

So many negative people, it's like you don't want new pilots to get a job. Pilots coming out of CTC, OAA etc do get jobs. If it was all a scam and no one got jobs it would have been found out by now and people wouldn't be spending 100k on it. Why don't you stop focusing on those who don't get jobs and focus on the high percentage of cadets that do.

[planedrive]

Pilotchute, don't believe all rumours you hear. For a fact, a week and a half ago 25 wings pilots and 8 take off pilots went for interviews. The vast majority (21 out of 25 wings - i don't know about take off) got offers from that airline and they will be starting type ratings between august and the middle of october. These are people who finished their course in may/june/july of this year.

Yes there are people who mess up, but if you look at/know of those who didn't get in then you can usually see the reason why! Since the 'rule of two' came in I have only heard of one person who has been turned down by two different airlines but I don't know what happens to him now.

and don't be so wary of the true stories. BA, Flybe and Easy all have wings cadets, interviewed over the summer on type rating courses at the moment. Fact.

[average-punter]

The hold pool is somewhat an unsolvable mystery it seems after chatting to wings cadets! It seems CTC don't like to publically disclose details of the hold pool. Cadets have been demanding information but so far CTC has failed to provide answers. The cynic could say there is no hold pool, but it seems the majority get jobs. It's also worth noting that a large chunk of the cadets here at CTC currently are pre-selected. The most recent cadets seemed to wait about 2-3 months to get job offers.

I know, like planedrive for a fact that interviews have been conducted by easyJet, BA (for extra cadets to augment FPP1 intake) and Flybe. 6 cadets were pre-selected by Flybe for the 'Flybe wings' scheme and started training in Sep 2012. These pilots are now well into their Q400 (fully paid for) type rating course. I know of a handful of individuals who were recently hired by easyJet and are awaiting a TR date. Further to this I am aware of one individual who was taken on by BA, with a further 4 who I don't personally know. The future for wings cadets looked :mad: only a year or two ago, but is looking better now. I am aware of some being cut, but this is mainly due to their own fault as opposed to not obtaining an interview.

By the way I'm not a wings cadet so not biased in anyway, nor am painting a rosy picture. This is the truth. I also take any information from CTC with an enormous shovel of salt.

[pilotchute]

Guys,

CTC and OAA alone are pumping out 35-40 cadets a month between them. Are you telling me the majority of these guys get jobs?

The majority get hired someone says? Who says? Where is this info coming from? The school? A bunch of cadets sitting around exaggerating the numbers?

[planedrive]

I can't say about OAA as I don't personally know anyone there, but yes the majority of CTC grads get jobs - as I and others have pointed out to you in the last couple of posts. This is from actually KNOWING CTC grads, not just making up rumours to suit the theory that you want to promote. Agreed a couple of years ago the numbers were much much worse, but these days - like it or not - CTC grads are finishing their courses and getting applications for jobs within a couple of weeks.

[JPFTEJerez]

Recently started a blog for friends/family/other aspiring pilots to follow my progress as I pass through CTC.
I'll leave the link if anyone is interested in giving it a read, thanks :ok:
http://jordanpilotplatt.********.com

If the link doesn't work, it's jordanpilotplatt.blog spot.com

[G-F0RC3]

Good luck Jordan! :)

[JPFTEJerez]

Thanks G-F0RC3 :ok:

[Aluminium shuffler]

Pilotchute is quite correct. The schools are businesses, not charities or clubs. They make their money by selling courses, and it is not in their interest for prospective students to know just how hard it is to get a job at the end of the course, or how much more that will cost.

Think long and hard about the financial commitment before signing up and do the arithmetic. You will have mortgage levels of debt and a less than 50% chance of ever working as a pilot. Some of you wonder-teens have already had a pop at Pilotchute over his comments. He's not running anyone down, he's trying to get you to see through the sales pitch. The image you are given of your career prospects are highly unrealistic. Some may get a peach of a cadetship with BA, but most will get none at all. Even those who get into LOCOs will wonder two years down the line why they did it, and most will regret it.

[lee_p_marshall]

Hi everyone, I was just wondering if anyone is starting on the CTC wings course in December this year on CP127?

[eazy123]

Yup, I am starting on the 8th December. CP127.

I'm Dave. Looking forward to meeting everyone.

[rick992]

Just to clarify a couple of things.
Steve is currently one of my course mates, I'm in AZ he's in NZ, but the CTC policy he's talking about is the Europe one. It doesn't matter where we go to complete our training, policy remains the same: 2 interview chances in 2 years.
Moreover, AZ issues with DA42 are real but are due to delays by Diamond to assemble the aircrafts. This is why Diamond (and not CTC) is currently paying travel expenses to all courses which are being sent to NZ to complete their training.
I've had the chance to talk to some guys which had finished their training with CTC and all has been offered an interview opportunity with at least one company, passed and now doing TR (most of them EZY).
You're not guaranteed a job, but let me say if I have to decide where to spend my money I would give at least a look to CTC, just because its placement records are way more better than other schools and cadets can confirm this.

[Gregorsky]

Lee and eazy I will be joining you down in Southampton! Excited to meet you both.

[AdrienT06]

Hi!
Is it compulsory to have less than 85 hours to apply for the easyjet MPL programme ? And other airlines ?

[u0062]

Hi guys and girls your enthusiam for aviation is not in doubt. I join the orange brigade 7 years ago from another airline during my time I have watched the t&c of the second, first and senior first officers,deteriorate at an alarming rate.

Should you eventually end up at Ezy and I say big IF, look at monarch and the amount of out of work pilots, you t&c will be even worse. The 100k debit you are saddled with will take years to pay off. That's assuming you can remain in work

This is the biggest financial gamble of your life,the numbers of whether it is financially viable have not added up for some time.

Before you put your parents house on the line make sure you go in with your eyes wide open. I have said this on this forum Many times,each time Beagle pup has tried to justify the benefits I don't think this time he will he works for Monach I wish all at Monach the very best for the future

[piet390]

CP 129 Anyone?

[Arkadine]

Yes, I am in the CP129

[adf27]

Anyone in EZ MP07?

[Monarch580]

I'm EZMP08, when does your course start?

[LowFlyer40]

Looking for anyone with first hand experience/genuine information regarding the Easyjet MPL 2015, preferably regarding the CTC route.

How many cadets are expected to be taken for the CTC FlexiCrew pilot scheme?
In past years how many pilots from the CTC FlexiCrew scheme have been offered permanent positions with Easyjet and how many let go?
If you are not offered a permanent position with Easyjet after a year with CTC Flexicrew what happens? are you still contracted to CTC FlexiCrew for a further two years?
In past years what salary have pilots on the CTC FlexiCrew scheme received in their first year?
Can the cost of the course/expenses be offset against future earnings under the UK Tax System?
At what point will you be issued with or entitled to a frozen ATPL License?

Any information on the above would be greatly appreciated.

[Obi Two]

Hi all,

I'm heading down to CTC for the stage 2 selection day and just wondered if anyone could clarify a few things regarding the numeracy test.

I've used the search function, but have found largely generic answers, so was hoping someone could possibly help.

From the information I've gathered, the mental arithmetic comprises of: Long Division/Multiplication (both with and without decimals), Percentages and Conversions (Temp, Currency).

Am I missing anything?

Again I apologise if this has been answered many times but I'd be grateful if anyone could help with any up to date information.

[byrondaf]

LowFlyer40, I found this quite useful.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/553366-ctc-cadets-initial-placement-salaries.html

[average-punter]

Sorry to hear that. It’s good that you obtained that piece of feedback, I assume you have been thoroughly debriefed on your performance? If not phone up and ask. I’m pretty skeptical as to what group exercises show but nonetheless they are a hurdle between you and the job. A lot of it is just basic manners and common sense such as maintaining eye contact when someone is speaking, don’t interrupt, don’t shoot down others etc... but part of it is being able to show you can “lead” not by attempting to take charge but rather by “steering” the conversation should it be going round in circles. It’s imperative to read the instructions very carefully before launching into the task and contributing your thoughts. I’ve not done the Oxford assessment but the CTC one sounds very similar, the environment is very serious as it’s essentially a job interview.

Take the time to critique your own performance, what went well? Where do you feel you could perform better? And how will you make those changes to improve your performance next time round?

I do not intend for this to sound rude or for any arrogance on my part but you weren’t selected for a course which you ultimately pay the company a lot of money for, so it’s important to understand where you went wrong and maybe take a bit of time out and gain some of the skills that potential recruiters are looking for before launching yourself into the next application without making any changes to you as a person.

Feel free to PM me if you have any further questions.

Best of luck

[Miss_Cassutt]

Climb Under Read,


Thank you for posting. I am asking myself the same questions. Additionally I have completed MCC/JOC at CRM Aviation. Training was simply excellent but obviously CTC is definitively an opportunity. On the other hand it is the same price (even a little more) than a FI Rating which I am also considering (not just for the hours but for the experience).


If anyone has more info on the subject, it would be great to discuss!

[Matty7773]

I am in CP129

[alexeibutterwick]

I was going to join CP129, but I realised i won't be back from holiday on time. Anyone on CP130 or CP131? Officially on CP131 but if a place opens up for CP130, I'm on!

[edmall14]

Hello mate i am in CP130 if you manage to get on it :).

[jamesohare95]

Im on CP130 too, was offered a place on CP129 but didnt want to rush it

[Fostex]

Over the last year a number of 'cadets' who have successfully completed training have been told they do not meet the 'CTC placement standard'.... essentially after 18 months and paid close to 100k they are in the hold pool and cannot apply to easyjet and the majority of the other partner airlines that CTC supply.

I believe that anything from failing just 4 ground school exams to a weak AQC result results in exclusion from applying to easyjet and pretty much every other airline that comes up. Even if you pass CPL/IR first time etc..

Maybe those cadets should have put in a bit more effort instead of assuming that £100k buys you a job regardless of your ability and skill.

It seems CTC unexpectedly want to keep the standard of cadets going to airlines high.

Unexpectedly, surely you jest...

[FlyVeryHigh-]

I have also heard of the above. People unable to apply for specific airlines as they do not meet the airlines entry qualifications (A-levels etc). I think they're the qualifications that are subject to their cadetships.

[Teddy2928]

Hi everybody,

I want to know if PILAPT is the company which does the adapt and the interviews for ctc??
any tips will be appreciated from guys who took the assessment recently...

thank you......... :)

[RomeoEchoKiloTango]

Afternoon guys and girls

I recently applied for the VS Future Flyers Programme. I reached the final stage and attended the final selection day at their HQ near LGW. Unfortunately I didn't make the final 12. In order to get that far, I had passed CTC selection, and I was offered the chance to follow the CTC Wings career path instead. As instructed I telephoned CTC and after a long conversation with a very helpful team I told them I would like to train with them.

They accepted and told me my application would be passed on to the relevant people and I would receive start dates and joining information shortly afterwards. That was over 2 weeks ago and since then I haven't heard anything. Is it normal to wait this long? Is there anyone else in a similar situation?

[Owu96]

I heard of stories like what FCastro stated. I'm not sure whether it's a wise choice I've made or not. I unfortunately declined my CTC wings offer after much consideration. I'm opting to go to university to study marine operations, and then hopefully pursue aviation with CTC after. I only chose to make that decision to have a 'back up' trade. But I'm really worrying/wondering if I'm making to right choices and to get into aviation slightly later...

[average-punter]

For what it's worth I think you have made a very mature decision and you should be commended for it. Well done for seeing through the marketing :mad:. Obtaining your degree will give you lots of good experience and you shouldn't have to juggle pilot training with growing up at the same time (some people who have tried that have failed miserably).

I started pilot training at 19. On my programme the next eldest has 4 years on me. I do feel that a few more years on my side may have been a benefit to myself. It is small issues for me such as being with a group of older people on your course a few of them won't take what you're saying seriously or really give much consideration to your point of view.

Your degree sounds interesting so if it does all go tits up for whatever reason you can try to find employment in a different field.

Best of luck

[RomeoEchoKiloTango]

I also think gaining a degree is a mature, wise decision (then again, I'm currently in the final semester of the final year of a management degree, so I would say that :E )

What I meant by my original post was, is there anybody out there currently having accepted an offer of training from CTC who is awaiting correspondence regarding when/how they can commence training? Whether you're looking to pursue the Wings pathway or the IPP or any of the MPL schemes?

[Mainyj]

Hello,
This may have already been asked and answered, in which case, apologies!
I was just wondering if anyone knows if they expect us to know technical stuff about the aircraft etc for the interview, or is it more general?

Cheers

[Up North Like]

Nope. The Wings assessment is purely non-technical. Industry knowledge is essential though.

[Mica78]

hello,
I've been accepted in the CTC wings course and I am looking for people who start on july 2015 (I think CP 134 but not sure yet)
Thanks !

[RomeoEchoKiloTango]

All right mate, congrats for passing the selection

just out of curiosity, how long was it between you finding out you'd passed selection and you being offered a place on a course?

[Mainyj]

Ok cheers, any advice on where to look to get specifics, (other than the standard google search)

[byrondaf]

just out of curiosity, how long was it between you finding out you'd passed selection and you being offered a place on a course?

Usually you find out the next day. I had my assessment on a thursday and got a phone call friday lunchtime.

[Up North Like]

Ok cheers, any advice on where to look to get specifics, (other than the standard google search)

CTC site, easyJet site, BA site. Places like that combined with the news and different aviation publications won't set you far wrong!

All the best with the selection, just be yourself and truthful and I'm sure it will all go to plan!

[jamesohare95]

CP 130 anyone?

[Mica78]

Cp 135 anyone ?

[alexeibutterwick]

Im on CP130. Will see you Thursday. Just out of interest, does anyone know whether most people stay after the meet and greet and airline preparation day, or do most just go home for the weekend then come back sunday evening ready for ground school on the monday?

[piet390]

Anyone on CP131? I've set up a fb page for those who are. Just search CTC Wings CP131.