The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.

[tech log]

98% of graduates placed within the first 2 months have secured jobs as FIRST OFFICERS, the response was YES.

Bear in mind this includes MPL trainees, the 98% figure includes everyone not just Wings trainees.

Would I get preference in terms of the airline I want to fly for once I've completed the course.

Haha no. It doesn't work like that.

If successful at the trainee review board after completing AQC you're placed in the hold pool. Note being in the pool does not guarantee a route to any airline you like, there will be people in it right now who are eligible to be in it but won't be eligible to apply for easyjet for example.

Airlines will email CTC and say "we want 6 to interview next week" and CTC send out an email to eligible hold pool trainees asking if they want to apply. The 6 who respond with the highest seniority numbers go to interview.

You have preference in so much as you tell CTC if you want to apply to that airline when the airline come to CTC with their request.

Do not be under the impression that you tell CTC you want Monarch and they will send you there for interview.

Please note my competency and ability to sit exams is not an issue

I would respectfully suggest your first task before applying to Wings interview is to climb out of your own bottom. Cocky students get their wings clipped big time at CTC; the management have been flying for decades, they have seen it all before. You have no idea whether you have the competence and ability until you are well into the system. It is not uncommon at all for cadets to fall short and end up getting their training contracts terminated, or to balls up their AQC and restrict their eligibility for easyJet. There are guys who have good ground school results and then go to HN/PHX and totally balls it up, they can't fly to CTC standard. It happens.

[GDAJB]

I prefer Monarch due to their routes and FREE TYPE RATING.

You might want to do your homework before shouting. It hasn't been "Free" for at least 2 years. Budget something North of £30k now.

[Flaplesslanding]

The 98% of GRADUATES statistic may well be accurate. The question to ask is how many fail to graduate in the first place. If you don't get into the hold pool then CTC won't call you a 'graduate' to preserve the statistic...

My 2 cents, go MPL if you possibly can. It's a much safer route.

[Aviationtrader]

Hi,

Thank you for your advice.
Sir(tech log) my intention wasn't to brag, I understand I'm just as vulnerable to be unsuccessful at any stage of the course as anyone. So I retract that statement.


GDAJB: I was not aware that Monarch charge for a type rating, I was just told by the CTC advisor that they are one of the airlines who do not charge but deduct from the initial pay over a certain amount of months, which I guess works out to be the same but that would have helped my situation by not actually needing to give the cash upfront. I the advisor was right!

In regards to the MPL, I was made aware by the advisor that you're provided with an airline specific type rating?? :S.. Would that mean I'd be unable to move airlines without having to fork out another £30k for a type rating? Also, I'm confident (not bragging) that I should pass the ATPL but worst case if I do not pass the interview with easy jet after completion, would I still have to pay the full Easyjet MPL fee (£109,000).. Or would I be refunded the difference of (£15,000). ATPL Whitetail (£94,000)..

Im sorry if I'm coming across not having done the appropriate research etc but thats why I've joined this forum to gain the knowledge of the experts. I've read many of the old forums but as I'm sure you're aware everything is changing so fast in this field and most of the figures and fees are out of date.


Tech Log: In terms of being selective with the desired airline, would I be better off going with OAA as they state they are not filling spaces on a first come basis with partner airlines, the way CTC do, they state that instead their graduate services will help create and modify applications to suit the graduates preference? I know it may be a sales speech.

My only concern is right now that I do not want to commence a course and potentially be jobless by the end of the 18 month adventure at the expense of circa £120k..


Thank you once again,

Willing to take on all the constructive advice anyone has to offer!

[planesandthings]

My only concern is right now that I do not want to commence a course and potentially be jobless by the end of the 18 month adventure at the expense of circa £120k..


If this is a major barrier to you then I suggest you find another career, this industry is so volatile that it only takes another recession or major worldwide event for recruitment to collapse.
No one can deny that. You can get offered a job straight away after training for a major airline or end up working in the school's call-center selling others the dream as a "Careers Advisor" for many months despite the fact your career hasn't started! Both of them are realistic scenarios.

Though I believe the MPL can be transferred in very exceptional circumstances to another carrier, you have to be attached to an airline from the beginning and stay with them for a decent period of time, whether or not you have to pay for a type rating a few years down the line once your MPL becomes an ATPL is down to what individual airlines are offering at the time.



In regards to the MPL, I was made aware by the advisor that you're provided with an airline specific type rating?? :S.. Would that mean I'd be unable to move airlines without having to fork out another £30k for a type rating? Also, I'm confident (not bragging) that I should pass the ATPL but worst case if I do not pass the interview with easy jet after completion, would I still have to pay the full Easyjet MPL fee (£109,000).. Or would I be refunded the difference of (£15,000). ATPL Whitetail (£94,000)..



If you join EasyJet on Route 2 you will be paying the ATPL fee of £94k to start with, after the ATPL exams if you are upgraded you will then be adjusted to £109k, so no need for a refund as MPL Upgrade is not guaranteed at any stage, you pay if/when you're upgraded.
If you were not to pass the interview you would then be given the opportunity to join Route 3 EasyJet ATPL (subject to an offer) which would be £123,800 (30k for Type Rating which can be bonded) unless you wish to prefer just continue as a regular whitetail cadet (or do not meet pass EasyJet ATPL interview).

As you can see, there's a lot of opportunities and a lot of pitfalls on this path. Take the glossy brochures with a pinch of salt, get constructive advice from everyone, get out and do a bit of grassroots flying now (light aircraft/gliding) to show your passion and consider all options and schools, not just the ones with the best marketing skills.

It's Cost vs Risk. You might get employed straight away out of CTC after paying well north of £100k or you might be unemployed for a year doing it modular for £55,000.

Best of Luck.

[lostinspace89]

I mean yes anything can happen as planesandthings said. We're living in a world where nothing is certain anymore.

I doubt though there would be another recession so soon, banks have made sure that won't happen (hence the difficulty in taking loans), and also if you read up a bit about the airline industry, its at its strongest its probably ever been (warren buffet has just invested billions into airline stocks). Airlines are more careful now with over capacity and with handling crises.

Another 9/11? Highly unlikely. Though 2015,2016 saw the shooting down of a malaysian airlines flight over russia, the mysterious dissapearance of MH17, a suicide air crash into the alps and a few other note worthy crashes (flydubai,air egypt etc)...yet here we are, and they barely affected the industry. The truth is the industry is more cautious now and certain events are protected against. Many airlines have consolidated and have become more robust.

It is more likely the airline you might join is to go bankrupt due to misaporopiate handling rather than other external factors...though airlines like EasyJet are known to plan ahead, hence applying for an EU AOC years before they even know the impact of Brexit (which could be years away)

[twtiger]

Is anyone doing the course on the 17th April in New Zealand? Let me know! :)

[okay hars]

Hi

Does anyone here know did Qatar Airways will re open their programme this year or not ?

Any information given about Qatar Airways in CTC would be much appreciated :ok:
Omg I want to apply too!!! I contacted CTC aviation they told maybe around April or May just like last year. Do sign up for course updates :)

[Scouseflier85]

Hi all I'm in my early 30s and was wondering if there was any guys or girls same sort of age group who have gone down the integrated route i.e. Ctc fte oaa either mpl or whitetail who have gained employment with ezy ryr etc do these airlines prefer younger cadets or do I stand the same chance as someone fresh out of education I am 31 to be precise and currently an engineer in the motor industry but aviation has long been a passion of mine any information would be greatly appreciated many thanks

[tech log]

I've known of several older Cadets.

I must be honest with you in saying that you probably will find the course tougher at your age, in terms of information retention and the speed at which you'll pick things up. It's just Biology, unfortunately. It is very true that Teenagers brains are like sponges.

But it can be done.

Your best bet is an MPL where you have a little bit more security.

[TheManFromThatPlace]

I always find it worrying when people post on here seemingly intent on spending insane amounts of money, without actually knowing what they are paying for. There is no ATPL route at CTC, or any flight school. You cannot go to a flight school and leave with an ATPL. You will get a CPL with an ME-IR, ATPL theory complete and an MCC/JOC (affectionately called AQC by CTC). That aside, there seems to be some kind of perception here that the course at CTC is a difficult one and that the standards are high. Please don't be fooled by the sales pitch. The standards are just are just as low as anywhere else. You will find people passing and getting jobs who have little to no theory knowledge and very little in the way of flying skills. A lot of people here need to open their eyes to the reality.

[FoxChaRomeo]

Hi all I'm in my early 30s and was wondering if there was any guys or girls same sort of age group who have gone down the integrated route i.e. Ctc fte oaa either mpl or whitetail who have gained employment with ezy ryr etc do these airlines prefer younger cadets or do I stand the same chance as someone fresh out of education I am 31 to be precise and currently an engineer in the motor industry but aviation has long been a passion of mine any information would be greatly appreciated many thanks

Scouse, I started a white tail integrated program at CTC the week before my 36th birthday. Been on the line with easyJet now for over a year, and was successful in the BA direct entry pilot selection at the end of last year, just waiting for a start date.

So, age is definitely not an impediment! In fact out on the line, I'd say it was a significant advantage, skippers appreciate talking to a bloke (or girl) who has a bit of life experience and not someone who's 20 and just fallen out of school and into a training school on the back of Mum & Dad's ££.

Don't get me wrong, it's bloody hard work, and living with a bunch of 'kids' for 18 months while you complete your training who are 10 plus years younger than you and have a very different outlook on life is not easy. But it's relatively short term, and when you finally get sat in the right hand seat you will appreciate it much more.

I spent 10 years in the motor trade too, albeit in sales (don't hate on me! ;)) and during a difficult day, I often think to myself "I could still be selling cars!" It definitely helps to put the tougher times (and there will be some) into context with your previous career, which makes them so much easier to deal with.

Hope that helps, good luck!

[average-punter]

There are obviously more people in their early 20s on the course, but plenty of people slightly older too. You certainly won't be on your own. If you are good enough to pass the airline interview then they don't care how old you are.

Like someone has said don't believe the whole sales pitch on "ultra superior standards" and that BS. If you can pass the tests and come out the other end you have just as good a chance as anyone else.

[flightless_bird]

Hi all I'm in my early 30s and was wondering if there was any guys or girls same sort of age group who have gone down the integrated route i.e. Ctc fte oaa either mpl or whitetail who have gained employment with ezy ryr etc do these airlines prefer younger cadets or do I stand the same chance as someone fresh out of education I am 31 to be precise and currently an engineer in the motor industry but aviation has long been a passion of mine any information would be greatly appreciated many thanks

I started training with CTC just before my 31st birthday and was employed by easyJet for four years without even an interview (I left to go to a different carrier with a different lifestyle). Passing the ATPL exams was hard work because there is so much to learn but very achieveable. If you put in the time you should get the results.

[GHav1664]

Having attended the CTC Open Day on Saturday my biggest concern was the removal of/modification of (both were mentioned) their Performance Protection. So far i've been unable to get a clear answer, both on the day and after from their career advisors, of exactly what it will look like post 1 July so this is a potential game changer for me. Did anybody else pick up on that and get any clearer answers from anyone at CTC?

[Millasaurus]

If you were not to pass the interview you would then be given the opportunity to join Route 3 EasyJet ATPL (subject to an offer) which would be £123,800 (30k for Type Rating which can be bonded) unless you wish to prefer just continue as a regular whitetail cadet (or do not meet pass EasyJet ATPL interview).

Sorry but this is incorrect. If you were not to pass the any assessment for Generation easyJet then you could be offered whitetail in the best case, or in the worst rejected from the school altogether. Each of the three routes lead to the same position, but are offered depending on easyJet's confidence in you to be able to complete the course, with Route 1 (MPL) indicating a high level of confidence, and Route 3 being lower, but still enough.

[TrevorPhillips]

Omg I want to apply too!!! I contacted CTC aviation they told maybe around April or May just like last year. Do sign up for course updates :)

Really? when did you contacted them? cause i've been contacted them from january but their reply just "we don't know yet, as it's Qatar decision not us"

[PA28161]

The best scheme being operated at the moment is the Thomas Cook/Iago Platinum Pilot scheme. There is no upfront TR cost, just 400 quid for the assessment days. IAGO and Thomas Cook pay all the costs for TR, base training/line training for the successful cadets.
The scheme is due to re-open during Spring 2017 - http://www.iagoplatinum.com/

[planesandthings]

Sorry but this is incorrect. If you were not to pass the any assessment for Generation easyJet then you could be offered whitetail in the best case, or in the worst rejected from the school altogether. Each of the three routes lead to the same position, but are offered depending on easyJet's confidence in you to be able to complete the course, with Route 1 (MPL) indicating a high level of confidence, and Route 3 being lower, but still enough.

Sorry, I didn't word it right. If you were not to pass to Route 2 standard but passed to Route 3 then obviously EasyJet ATPL would be offered unless you fail altogether and fall back to Whitetail or nothing.
Sure, all three routes lead to the same job, however I'd seriously think long and hard about spending £123,800 on an airline scheme that is nothing more than a glamorized whitetail where you get a job offer a bit earlier (Totally conditional until after ATPL results) and airline specific training . It's an unjustified extra £20k to get the same job!
Strangely someone on whitetail might now actually end up better off than an EasyJet Route 3 if they get the opportunity to join BA, now that BA has ended FPP and replaced it with whitetail hiring!

People will keep paying though, regardless...:rolleyes:

[Bq54]

Whilst that kind of makes sense. You are forgetting the fact that the £120k is inclusive of a type rating. Yes you may pay less to be on a standard whitetail but you will still end up paying for a type rating at the end of it (provided you don't get a job with an airline that pays for a type rating).

You sign a conditional offer of employment, just the same as route 1 & 2, on route 3. It is certainly a safer route that a standalone whitetail route.

[Jbaldwin95]

Hey everyone,

I have been planning on applying to CTC for the white tail route (ATPL) and am looking to have my selection centre in late Aprile/early May. I have also applied to generation easy jet through CTC and have been succesful in getting to stage 2.

Now I have learnt that easyjet split their selection into 2 stages (first day is technical ie numerical and PILAPT i would assume) second day, if successful on first ( would be non-technical ie 1-1 interview and group exercise).

My questions are:

1) Are the technical tests the same as for Virgin's MPL and CTC's whitetail selection process for easyjet?
2) If succesful at the first and second day but not meeting easyjet's criteria (or simply not beating all other candidiates) would you still be eligable for the whitetail route with CTC?
3) What if you are succesful at the first stage (technical) but not second day, would you have to start from scratch and have to go through all stages (technical and non-technical) for the CTC white tail route? If so you'd have to wait 3 more months I would assume?


I had been unsuccesful in the PILAPT during my Virgin MPL selection day in January, had been planning to go through the whitetail process with CTC when I was informed about getting to easyjet's selection day(s) out of the blue (having applied in late 2016)so am trying to get an idea what would be most suited to me. I cannot afford to fail again and am pretty confident (with sufficent preperation) I could pass CTC's selection process in April/May but with easyjet's selection day/process being quite different to Virgin's/CTC's whitetail route I am unsure about how to proceed to one way or another end up on an ATPL course in the near future.


if anyone could help I would REALLY appreciate it.

[Maverick97]

Having attended the CTC Open Day on Saturday my biggest concern was the removal of/modification of (both were mentioned) their Performance Protection. So far i've been unable to get a clear answer, both on the day and after from their career advisors, of exactly what it will look like post 1 July so this is a potential game changer for me. Did anybody else pick up on that and get any clearer answers from anyone at CTC?


I have a feeling this comment may have been overlooked. Are you sure they're removing their performance protection. That's a HUGE deal!

[Airone2977]

1) Are the technical tests the same as for Virgin's MPL and CTC's whitetail selection process for easyjet?
YES

2) If succesful at the first and second day but not meeting easyjet's criteria (or simply not beating all other candidiates) would you still be eligable for the whitetail route with CTC?
Yes and no, depends on your performance, might be eligeable for the whitetail.

3) What if you are succesful at the first stage (technical) but not second day, would you have to start from scratch and have to go through all stages (technical and non-technical) for the CTC white tail route? If so you'd have to wait 3 more months I would assume?
The selection process for each programs are tailored differently and aren't linked to each other. In some rare cases, you were able to transfer technical test result so you didn't have to re-sit some of the test, very uncanny I was one of the few who ware allowed to do that, from route 4 AQC to ATP AQC, but don't take it for grounded.

I had been unsuccesful in the PILAPT during my Virgin MPL selection day in January, had been planning to go through the whitetail process with CTC when I was informed about getting to easyjet's selection day(s) out of the blue (having applied in late 2016)so am trying to get an idea what would be most suited to me. I cannot afford to fail again and am pretty confident (with sufficent preperation) I could pass CTC's selection process in April/May but with easyjet's selection day/process being quite different to Virgin's/CTC's whitetail route I am unsure about how to proceed to one way or another end up on an ATPL course in the near future.
As a said before, no link between those programs, you can fail EZY and Virgin and still be able to apply for the whitetail, do not hesitate to ask CTC

[GHav1664]

I have a feeling this comment may have been overlooked. Are you sure they're removing their performance protection. That's a HUGE deal!

I am certain that is what was briefed on the Open Day. However, having harassed the CTC Career Advisors the best response I could get was yesterday and said; 'The cost of the training programmes and the Performance Protection will be reviewed from July 1st, so we would not be able to provide any information until after that date'.

Obviously, I'm not in a position to attempt to second guess what they are going to do, but I will be delaying my application until after that date.

[ManUtd1999]

It's worth remembering that, whilst the performance protection is a good back-up to have, it isn't a bullet proof solution. It's all judged on a case by case basis with no (published) hard or fast rules for when a cadet would or wouldn't get their money back. Especially in the unfortunate case that you pass the course but don't meet the hold pool standard (85% ATPL pass average I think?), I doubt you would get much if any money back and your job prospects would be significantly worse..

That said, performance protection provides a lot of reassurance in CTC's confidence in their own selection criteria. IF it goes (and it's only a PPRUNE rumour atm...) then you'd have to question why IMO - are they seeing more cadets "fail"?, are they planning on taking more 'risks' with who they let start the course?, is the quality of their instruction slipping? - why else would they need to stop it?

[Jbaldwin95]

YES
Yes and no, depends on your performance, might be eligeable for the whitetail.
The selection process for each programs are tailored differently and aren't linked to each other. In some rare cases, you were able to transfer technical test result so you didn't have to re-sit some of the test, very uncanny I was one of the few who ware allowed to do that, from route 4 AQC to ATP AQC, but don't take it for grounded.

As a said before, no link between those programs, you can fail EZY and Virgin and still be able to apply for the whitetail, do not hesitate to ask CTC
Thanks a lot, I really appreciate the response mate!

So EZY, Virgin and CTC all use the same technical tests (numerical/PILAPT)? So should I expect any differences (and thus prepare accordingly) for the day 1 selection day for EZY from Virgin's selection day? (or prepare for the same stuff I had for Virgin?)

Once again, thanks!

[Jbaldwin95]

Especially in the unfortunate case that you pass the course but don't meet the hold pool standard (85% ATPL pass average I think?),
Hey, could you expand on this please? What are the criteria for entering the hold pool?

[Airone2977]

So EZY, Virgin and CTC all use the same technical tests (numerical/PILAPT)? So should I expect any differences (and thus prepare accordingly) for the day 1 selection day for EZY from Virgin's selection day? (or prepare for the same stuff I had for Virgin?)If the assesment day is set at Dibden Manor, it will be exactly the same numeracy/PILAPT test, however maths change frequently but no need to worried about, similar questions but different number

[ManUtd1999]

This page explains is pretty well, I too was unaware of this until a few months ago.

Week 26: Module 3 Exams & New Zealand - Pilot George, CTC Aviation Cadet Blog (http://www.pilotgeorge.co.uk/blog/post/week-26-module-three-exams-and-new-zealand/)

Basically, 85% average will ensure you're eligible for most airlines in the hold pool. Less than 85% and you may be excluded from some airlines. Similar requirements exist for the flying side of training.

I'd stress that I'm just repeating information from other sources, checking with CTC directly is probably the best way to go.

[jswift98]

Anyone know if the Qatar selection is the same as the EZY/virgin/whitetail?

[dannybuckley8]

Hi all,

How can I work out the BBVA loan repayments? I know how much the course will cost, and it states the interest rate is currently 4.1%. It also states for the first 24 months is a holiday period then the next 24 months is a reduced rate and then the last remaining 6 years pays the full amount. How can I work out the amount required to pay back during years 2-4 and 4-10? Is it done on a percentage of the loan? I.e. Say the total loan is £120000, how can I work out these repayments? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as I have tried contacting the BBVA to ask but got a response stating there are rules which prevent them from replying to me!

Thank you.

[ManUtd1999]

BBVA have some example figures here. Not sure why they won't tell you, maybe ask again but for a specific example rather than how they work it out?
https://www.bbvauk.com/personal-banking/mortgages-and-loans/loans/pilot-training-mortgages/

It's an interesting maths problem though so here's how (I think :hmm:) you work out!

For the first two years you pay nothing and accrue interest, so at the end of year 2 the loan value is 120,000 * (1.041^2) = 130,041

From then on standard repayments can be calculated using the formula:
Monthly Amount = [Interest * Loan] / [1 - (1+Interest)^-n ]
where n is the number of years to repay

So for 8 years the monthly amount = (0.041*130,041) / (1-1.041^-8) = 19390 / year = 1616 / month

I'm not sure exactly how BBVA calculate the reduced payment value. If they apply a simple 25% discount then repayments in years 3-4 will be 1212.

You caluculate the effect on years 4-10 as follows:

Over years 3-4 you will be repay (1212*12) = 14546 / year
Loan remaining after year 3 (adding on interest) = ((130041*1.041)-14546) = 120827
And after year 4 = 111235

Therefore the repayments for this remaining amount of 6 years (4-10) are:
(0.0451*111,235) / (1-1.041^-6) = 21289 / year = 1774 / month

There are some good tutorials online on how to build this into a spreadsheet. Then you can compare different amounts and see the effect of interest rates easily.

The only problem is that this assumes that interest rates are constant. BBVA probably adjust interest rates depending on any number of factors which is why the above doesn't quite match up with their examples (it's within 50 pound per month though)

[gbotley]

ManUtd1999 has almost got it correct, although interest is only calculated during the first 24 months on the amount you have actually taken. My training started in August but I didn't take funds until December. The 2 year payment holiday started at this point and all interest accrued is only on the sum spent and not the overall loan.

The rate is also fixed at 3% per annum atop of the base rate set of the Bank of England, currently 0.25%. Thus, if the Bank of England increases rates as too does your interest and associated monthly repayments.

As a guide, on £70,000 my repayments in year 3-4 equate to ~£580 per month and then ~£780 a month until maturity at year 12.

In my case, I've currently only spent £51,300 and am accruing interest on this amount. Next month when I take another £5,300 out of the pot I will then be accruing interest on the £56,300.

Hope that makes sense.

[dannybuckley8]

Thank you gbotley and ManUtd1999 for your informative responses! And for you calculations in working out the interest and overall loan amount. gbotley, how did you get these amounts for your monthly repayments, did BBVA tell you that this is what your repayments will be (and when did they give you these sums) or could you work these out beforehand? How are you finding CTC? Do you know how the employment process works once you complete your training? How likely are you to be employed so you can fund this loan?

[gbotley]

@dannybuckley8,

BBVA will have discussions with you based on an amount you wish to borrow after you have completed and passed a CTC selection event. They're quite tight lipped otherwise and don't offer any real advice or support as to the product they're offering as it is as not really a consumer product.. it's more a 'commercial' banking product - they're in Canary Wharf after all - and is thus not covered by consumer protection and advice services.

Note that in addition to the BBVA application and legal fees which total around £2000, I then sought the professional advice of both financial advisors and property lawyers whom went through the contracts and offer from BBVA with a fine-tooth comb. It's hefty and BBVA pretty much prevent ANY alterations to a property throughout your term without them being informed as such. In total, I'd say expect anything from £3000-£4000 in fees alone depending on the property etc as some cadets even had to pay for BBVA's surveyors to attend their property and write up reports.

I originally requested the full £93,800 for Whitetail and BBVA practically ask for your entire life history and that of any guarantors in that they can make a decision on you. It turned out £70,000 was deemed the max I could be offered given the financial outlays of guarantors. I was then provided an offer in the post which outlined everything inclusive of payment amounts.

As for CTC itself, I'm quite happy here to be honest. Be under no illusion, it's a bloody hard graft. Ground School has been known to break people with the stress and I'll be the first to hold up my hands and say I even shed the odd tear here and there as it's a lot to learn in such a short space of time. With that said though, hard work reaps rewards and I've now 14 first time passes with 86% average and currently learning to fly out in New Zealand. You'll find this forum in particular is full of a heck of a lot of negative energy towards larger training organisations and whilst I suppose you do lose that 'personal touch' otherwise provided by a small flight club and spend a significant amount more, I can't fault the training itself.

In respect of employment, the way the market is at the moment so long as you pass everything to a high standard then recruitment is pretty steady. Even BA have returned to recruit cadets by tagging them as they complete Ground School. In essence, on completing training you're placed into a hold pool where a team at CTC Aviation then work to put you forward to suitable airlines for placement / interviews.

Hope that helps,

[gbotley]

Mine were around £2500 after VAT - inclusive of our own advisors/solicitors - which is perhaps more typical in truth. I've simply heard them be higher in more complex property situations. It's also worth adding, none of BBVA's fees were due until the loan was actually finalised and I requested money from them the first time.

[dannybuckley8]

gbotley, thank you very much for your informative response and also your positivity as like you said there is much negativity on these threads! That's absolute madness about the additional start up costs, is it really appox £4000 or like you suggested more like £2500? How comes BBVA would not lend you the entire loan?? How was you possibly able to find the extra 23,000?? Also how are you considering paying for your type rating fees, will they lend you that money or is £70000 you maximum?? I will certainly read your blog on this matter as this is a considerable risk which will worry me every day! I'm so pleased you are enjoying your training and the placement/employment after training sounds very positive. Thank you for your response, Danny

[JulietSierra6]

I think the last few posts have been pretty informative.

I just wanted to give you my thoughts now 4 years on from training.

The loan repayment is tough. I got a job with a large Irish loco a couple of months after finishing my integrated course. Seeing the numbers on a spreadsheet is one thing, seeing them come out of your net pay is another. Mine were roughly 800 during the reduced payment period then 1200 2 years later for the remainder. (That includes £24k for type rating).

As I've said, it is tough, but it is workable. Just be under no illusions as to what you'll potentially be left with each month and do your research. Asking questions here is a good start but plan for the worst case scenario, 6 months, a year? maybe 2 years out of training without a flying job? maybe longer. Things can and do go wrong throughout training that can seriously impact your employability, including just bad luck.

Things may be reasonable in terms of job prospects at the moment, but will they be in 1, 2 or 3 years from now? No one knows.

It is a huge gamble. I spent 3 years with the loco I mentioned and now work for the U.K. Flag carrier earning a pretty decent wage. £1200 out of my net pay still has a pretty significant impact. It worked out for me, and most others I guess. Would I take the gamble again, possibly not?

Do with this info what you will. Just trying to give some perspective on what living with these loans is like. This is based on a reasonably decent salary, do you have a back up plan to make the repayments if the worst should happen?

[ManUtd1999]

As I've said, it is tough, but it is workable. Just be under no illusions as to what you'll potentially be left with each month and do your research. Asking questions here is a good start but plan for the worst case scenario, 6 months, a year? maybe 2 years out of training without a flying job? maybe longer. Things can and do go wrong throughout training that can seriously impact your employability, including just bad luck.

Excellent advice. Plan for the worst, anything better is a bonus. I've done that and IMO, for an integrated scheme without some sort of loan guarantee, the numbers don't add up. I'm not saying others are wrong, just less risk averse than me.

Also worth mentioning that my negativity on here is not based on any perception of their training, by most accounts they produce excellent pilots.

My views stem more from their acceptance (some could even say encouragement) of airline cadet recruitment practices which show no regard for social mobility and would probably be ridiculed in any other industry. The major flight schools are by no means alone in this and it's unfair to blame them entirely, but they certainly don't help in my opinion.

[gbotley]

gbotley, thank you very much for your informative response and also your positivity as like you said there is much negativity on these threads! That's absolute madness about the additional start up costs, is it really appox £4000 or like you suggested more like £2500? How comes BBVA would not lend you the entire loan?? How was you possibly able to find the extra 23,000?? Also how are you considering paying for your type rating fees, will they lend you that money or is £70000 you maximum?? I will certainly read your blog on this matter as this is a considerable risk which will worry me every day! I'm so pleased you are enjoying your training and the placement/employment after training sounds very positive. Thank you for your response, Danny

@dannybuckley8,

Well BBVA's set fees are nothing more than this:


Application Fee: £650+VAT
BBVA Legal Fee: £950+VAT

But they are variable on a case by case basis. If they need to conduct additional checks on your property these fees will of course increase given the lawyers they use are based in London which is where the £3000-£4000 comes in as everything must have VAT included that could soon add up.On top of this I also paid around £450 + VAT for our own solicitors / financial advisors to go over everything. You can't simply skip the latter part out as the entire BBVA contract requires the signing to be conducted in front of a registered solicitor of which they must also sign and stamp as witness. This is not a quick loan for car finance you're applying for, it's a mortgage.

Being 23 and having not long completed by BSc degree in I.T. (my fall back plan) there was no way I could put up the security myself as I don't own a home - let alone one with enough equity. Thus, guarantors are required and in my case they are my parents with the property being that of my grandparents. Some may laugh at how stupid that sounds in that i've put everyone at risk with this, but we didn't just jump straight in.. we spent months evaluating everything.. we visited open days.. with spoke with current cadets and past cadets to see how they're managing repayments etc before even contemplating applying.

Once we had, we needed to submit financial information etc to BBVA on the earnings and outgoings of all guarantors. BBVA aims to establish if the guarantors can meet the repayments if you as the trainee can not. In my case, with my parents still having a mortgage and committments of their own, BBVA did not wish to put them in a situation they themselves wouldn't be able to afford. In fact, BBVA wouldn't be allowed to do this by law! As such, the repayments on £70,000 were the maximum in such an eventuality. I initially thought that was game over given the course cost of £93,800, but my brother and parents kindly offered to fill the gap left after my own savings had been considered. I'm very thankful for that to this day - especially as I never asked them to do that.

JulietSierra6 offers some good insight in to the end scenario. It ultimately boils down to how you will live at the end and BBVA know this all too well given the amount of trainees they've now helped. When doing your maths, don't just factor in the repayments. Take an average starting salary for a pilot of about £30,000-£40,000, if not less after tax, and factor in living costs for rent, car, insurances, mobile phone, etc etc as living in places such as London Gatwick won't be cheap either.

Finding the extra £20-£30,000 will be something I'll think about at the time. BBVA do offer type rating finance although there have been issues in the past with those whom already have BBVA loans so i'm not sure what'll happen there. We've explored finance options or the £30,000 prior to me starting which -- again -- involved remortgaging. However, there are many airlines which now part-contribute or completely fund type-ratings and that is becoming more common place over time with Thomas Cook being the latest to join that bandwagon so... one can hope.

Again, hope that helps you!

All in all, I'll quote a previous cadet whom helped me loads in my own endeavour to join CTC, "You need to be in it, to win it. It's the risk you have to take and sure I hate the repayments, but work hard, play hard and boy is it worth it."

[dannybuckley8]

gbotley, Thank you very much for your response. All the best with training and your future of course. Happy flying.

[hoopssam]

hey everyone. hoping this is the right place to post this..
i sat my CTC assessment in the december just gone and passed everything but PILAPT where i only failed 2/6 tests.
id used sky test to practice for PILAPT, but just not enough.
I was wondering whether anyone can give me a definitive answer as to how the crosshairs you fly in the test are set up.. i believe they are like a normal aircraft's controls (left is left, right is right and pulling back on the joystick makes the horizontal crosshair go up, pushing away from you makes it go down). i think where i went wrong was using skytest, where it appears to be inverted for left to be right, right to be left, and pushing away makes it go up, and pulling towards makes it go down..

any help is really appreciated guys as i just wanna cover all bases!
also happy to answer any questions about the selection for those who havent been yet

[planesandthings]

Bit OT but news in today from Goodyear that a CTC DA40 on a solo flight crashed soon after departure while trying to make a forced landing across irrigation lines after an engine failure. Good to see student was well, usual media hype.
But even more proof that ultimately people need as much handling skill as you can get! Get as much flying as you can before/during CTC. You never know when it might come in handy.

[ManUtd1999]

CTC's website has now been refreshed as part of their re-branding to become L3. In the section explaining the security bond there is now this new phrase:

Please note: This is not payment for training.

I wonder if there is a legal reason for them stating this so clearly?

As I understand it (also, the explanation here (https://www.pilotgeorge.co.uk/blog/post/ctc-aviation-l3-security-bond-explained/)), the security bond is:
a) paid to a subsidiary of CTC/L3, the company who conduct your training
b) 'transferred' to an airline if/when you're placed from the hold pool
c) not guaranteed to be repaid, but might be if the airline chooses to
d) if it is repaid, it is likely to be in the form of a tax advantage (essentially an increased personal allowance), your gross salary will not be increased by the security bond amount

In summary, you pay CTC/L3 the security bond. CTC/L3 never directly pay it you back and you might not get it back at all. There might be some financial wizardry which means its not technically paying for training, but it is about as close as it could possibly get. Hence my confusion at their clear statement that it is not.

[Alex Whittingham]

Is it a mechanism to avoid VAT, which would otherwise have to be charged?

[Maverick97]

Hello all,

I'm just curious as to what the hiring situation is currently like at CTC and at which airlines students are currently being placed. I'm aware that patterns change permitting recruitment needs.

With Jet2, TCX and Ryanair all having their own cadet graduate schemes it'd be nice to know if they still take on a fair number of CTC graduates. If not, which airlines are besides EZY and Flybe?

[gbotley]

@Maverick97,

Since I started here cadets have been placed with easyJet, FlyBe, AirTanker (A330 commercial charter operations for the likes of Jet2 and TCX long haul), Norwegian, Aurigny and Aegean to name a few.

[average-punter]

The bond has recently come under scrutiny from HMRC, affecting at least one airline. Be careful as it may not be available down the line. Be under no illusion you're not sponsored and you pay the full price for the course. The "bond" is just a tax advantage for the individual. If you are based outside of the UK then you cannot claim the tax advantage.

It certainly used to be able to be transferred between participating airlines and I know of several people who have worked for 2 carriers, both repaying the "bond"

[salom]

Any one attanded the assesment day at 2.6?

[99heyho]

hey everyone. hoping this is the right place to post this..
i sat my CTC assessment in the december just gone and passed everything but PILAPT where i only failed 2/6 tests.
id used sky test to practice for PILAPT, but just not enough.
I was wondering whether anyone can give me a definitive answer as to how the crosshairs you fly in the test are set up.. i believe they are like a normal aircraft's controls (left is left, right is right and pulling back on the joystick makes the horizontal crosshair go up, pushing away from you makes it go down). i think where i went wrong was using skytest, where it appears to be inverted for left to be right, right to be left, and pushing away makes it go up, and pulling towards makes it go down..

any help is really appreciated guys as i just wanna cover all bases!
also happy to answer any questions about the selection for those who havent been yet

did u manage to get the answer? is it the same as pilotaptitudetest.com?

[Theo.P]

@Maverick97,

Since I started here cadets have been placed with easyJet, FlyBe, AirTanker (A330 commercial charter operations for the likes of Jet2 and TCX long haul), Norwegian, Aurigny and Aegean to name a few.

Cadets haven't been placed.
Cadet applied, and got an interview, that is different..

[benshaw]

Does anyone have any recommendations for pre-course reading?

I have six months until I start with L3 and have been given access to my Padpilot ATPL iBooks. Do any current or previous cadets have any recommendations on particularly hard topics/ concepts that would be beneficial getting my head around before starting.

[Gregory787]

I would be in the same position as you Benshaw. I don't have a PPL so might be behind the curve to begin with.

Does anybody know when CTC might be sending cadets to Portugal?

[planesandthings]

Does anybody know when CTC might be sending cadets to Portugal?

Already started. I believe it's generally Whitetail cadets being sent there over tagged.

[SPDBRD1]

benshaw, when do start / what course are you on, I start in about 6 months too?

[Gregory787]

If I pay for my Integrated ATPL with L3 and then pay for my Type Rating with easyjet for example, will i then have to also pay for line training?

[fibod]

Is there a current/past CTC/L3 cadet who is willing to let me see a copy of their Airline Placement Limited (APL) bond agreement please?

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Does anyone have any recommendations for pre-course reading?

I have six months until I start with L3 and have been given access to my Padpilot ATPL iBooks. Do any current or previous cadets have any recommendations on particularly hard topics/ concepts that would be beneficial getting my head around before starting.

1. Get your maths up to speed. Basic gcse/ a-level stuff is crucial; re arranging formulas, arithmetic and trig are they key areas to be super hot on. The maths is the only thing that you need to have sorted beforehand to hit the ground running. You only get a couple of hours on basic maths the second day and then thats it, if you aren't comfortable with it, it can be really tough.
2. Don't touch PadPilot until you start the course, its utterly pointless. You might think you can get ahead but you can't.
3. Go buy Pukka Pads, coloured pens, highlighters, Post-It notes, a medium size whiteboard with drywipe pens, mechanical pencils and a big laminated world map for your room.
4. Go see all your mates/family beforehand and have a laugh and relax. I went on holiday before starting and it was great because I started nice and relaxed and in a good frame of mind.
5. Get to know your course mates on the first day. Having a social on the first Friday is crucial as its the only real time you can go out and have a laugh as a CP until Module 1 is over. Its astonishing how much the performance varies between CPs that gel well and those that don't. I got lucky and my CP really get on. Your course mates really do drag you through.
6. Keep positive. There is an awful lot of moaning that goes on that you will hear from CPs ahead of you. Most of it is attributed to EASA exam stress, but there is some discontent about the dreaded delays at the end of ground school. Ignore it all, you are 6 months and 14 exams away from finishing Ground school so your only job is to work hard and get good results. I have heard the word "sausage factory" banded about a lot, while its an unkind name there is an awful lot of guys and girls being put through the school, and the pace is relentless. Every cadet is all guilty of a moan at one time or another; just remember to not let it drag you down and try be the fattest and tastiest sausage in the whole factory!
7. Enjoy it where you can. Yes some things will seem so abstract that you wonder how on earth you will ever pass an exam on it, but the key is to keep chipping away at it and it will all fall in to place. The subjects are genuinely interesting for the most part and the instructors are genuinely great, you will have a laugh in lessons.

Good luck.

[gbotley]

Having come out the other side of the process, I couldn’t have put it better myself. Top advice there :-)

[parkfell]

Any update on the Portuguese operation?

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Any improvement on the utterly horrendous delays inflicted on the flying programme? Is it getting any better?

It seems to be yes. Although around the water cooler you hear of some pretty poor situations for some CPs. The powers that be are certainly aware of it, and the communication about the situation has been good. From the sounds of it the loss of Phenix came at exactly the wrong time, hence the ripples are still being felt. Two new flying training locations have just come online and are alleviating the delays.

Any update on the Portuguese operation?

More aircraft are leaving the maintenance contractor at Coventry and heading over. Again, things should be on the up from now on.

[tolip1]

If I pay for my Integrated ATPL with L3 and then pay for my Type Rating with easyjet for example, will i then have to also pay for line training?

No, line training is on-the-job. You are working as a pilot so will get paid.

[tolip1]

Any improvement on the utterly horrendous delays inflicted on the flying programme? Is it getting any better?

It's not getting better. If anything it's getting worse with the decision to train RAF pilots at what is already the most oversubscribed training facility. Students at Bournemouth have had weeks and weeks of delays and this ripples back through the system.

Even those on MPL courses are seeing huge delays despite needing to be at the airlines. Those of us on Wings have little hope of avoiding months of delays, without the option of getting a job in the meantime.

[Adlane]

To add to the above. Some friends of friends have literally been told, having done 9 months training at an extremely slow pace in Bournemouth, that they are to go out to New Zealand and do their CPL there.

It seems it gets worse and worse for those guys and girls over at L3 by the day. The RAF situation is the main cause of the Bournemouth woes. I hear those guys fly Monday to Friday every day whereas L3 guys barely get a flight a fortnight.

[Field Required]

Wow what has happened to CTC? Sounds like a complete mess. What a shame.

[tolip1]

Wow what has happened to CTC? Sounds like a complete mess. What a shame.

The instruction is good quality.

Unfortunately management can't see in front of their nose, which results in huge backlogs at various stages. Then you get told of being stood down for some weeks or months. Then the company buys out a new facility and releases a press release along the lines of 'we are aware of the delays, this is us dealing with it'. Of course this doesn't help the people that have just been delayed as it takes time to get a new place up and running.

Then they convince many more aspiring pilots to join, then further overload with RAF people.

Repeat the process.

[Adlane]

They’re providing multi engine training to the raf I’ve heard. Not sure on the specifics. Perhaps someone closer to L3 could shed some light.

[Lordflasheart]

What's happening with the RAF ?
The RAF cadets were only due to start in August 2018, so I would suggest any ‘Bournemouth woes’ prior to August are due to some other cause.

One hundred RAF students over three years according to the L3 and RAF press releases, to receive multi-engine CPL/IR courses, following basic flying training with the RAF. ..............

https://www.pilotcareernews.com/l3-to-provide-bespoke-training-for-raf-pilots/

It seems likely this group of students is being trained at Bournemouth on the DA42, on a hastily competed contract, necessitated by failure of the RAF to fund and procure enough crystal balls for their now civilianised flying training system (MFTS)

LFH

..............

[Field Required]

Wow L3 are really milking the cow good.

[Brett7]

Hey guys,

Anyone on here starting at L3 Coventry on the 9th of October in CP201? Trying to get in touch with anyone before the course starts.

[TheSkylander]

Hi everybody,

if you join the academy now where do you perform the practical part? Is up to you or to them the choice of the location of the training?

Thanks.

[Seosan]

Hi everybody,
if you join the academy now where do you perform the practical part? Is up to you or to them the choice of the location of the training?
Thanks.

It's not up to you. L3 place you where they can fit you in. If you're a whitetail (Wings) cadet, it could be UAE, Portugal, NZ or (if you really draw the short straw) Bournemouth.

​​​​​​

The RAF cadets were only due to start in August 2018, so I would suggest any ‘Bournemouth woes’ prior to August are due to some other cause.
...
It seems likely this group of students is being trained at Bournemouth on the DA42, on a hastily competed contract, necessitated by failure of the RAF to fund and procure enough crystal balls for their now civilianised flying training system (MFTS)
..

The RAF started in August and have drastically impacted the availability of instructors, especially now that there are two RAF courses running in the facility. The previous woes were down to a combination of factors; firstly, L3 switched maintenence provider which could not keep up with the workload and subsequently left L3 with 0-1x DA42s available for a period of time. The second factor is that nobody wants to be an instructor these days. The low hour requirements that allow cadets to get jobs with airlines is killing the instructor game across Europe and is affecting all of the 'big' integrated schools. Unfortunately, L3 keep taking on further contracts (such as the MOD) for what I can only imagine are marketing/prestige reasons and are subsequently having to use contractors/external schools just to handle the workload.

It's a mess.

[TheSkylander]

It's not up to you. L3 place you where they can fit you in. If you're a whitetail (Wings) cadet, it could be UAE, Portugal, NZ or (if you really draw the short straw) Bournemouth.​​

Awesome. Thanks.

[Lordflasheart]

..........

The press releases for the L3/MoD contract referred to ‘100 students over three years’ for multi-engine flying, commencing in August 2018. They will have done elementary and basic flying training. Their L3 course is touted as ‘similar to CPL/IR with MCC.’

On the published numbers, that would suggest something like - Six or eight students on a four month course of 60 hours, with a course joining every two months. That would barely fit with the report above, that there are already two RAF courses running at Bournemouth, so perhaps an early surge has been agreed on the grounds of national security. Given also the apparent temporary shortage of DA42’s and instructors, that would clearly mitigate against the civilian licence candidates who have to provide from their own resources.

The problem for the RAF is that the competition for ‘ME flying training’ that L3 won, must have been initiated several months ago. This might be either to fill a perceived shortfall of contracted capacity within the existing MFTS arrangements, or because of an ‘unanticipated’ additional requirement for ME pilots because of recent changes to RAF equipment plans. Either way, one wonders why they did not simply try to expand the existing MFTS contract on the Phenom 200, bearing in mind the decision to go outside the established MFTS would have been made before the little bit of Phenom embarrassment in July.

So - Is anyone please able to say roughly -

How many RAF students are on each separate RAF course at L3 ?
How long each course is planned or expected to last ?
What the course interval might be ?

LFH

............

[Seosan]

..........

How many RAF students are on each separate RAF course at L3 ?

............

8 people per intake. I should have made myself clearer; they split the first intake into two lots of four in an attempt at reducing the impact on civvies.

[Lordflasheart]

........
Thank you Seosan, that makes sense.

We are now also being told that because of certain shortcomings in the UK MFTS fast jet training process, a number of lucky RAF student pilots will be sent to Texas for their advanced flying training before attending the Typhoon operational conversion.

LFH

........

[MrZed]

I have finished L3 in recent months and have been lucky enough to secure employment as an integrated whitetail cadet. Despite performing well throughout training, I got the job on my own - literally not one person from the "dedicated placement team" helped me secure employment. Here's my thoughts on events since the latter stages of my training.

Employment

At the moment L3 have "placed" very few people. Realistically at the moment, the only options have been Turkish airlines or Wizzair - or if you speak French, Easyjet as Air France are taking a lot of their pilots - The majority of people who have secured employment have done so on their own back, despite obtaining credible results. There was very little support and to quote on their website that there is a "dedicated Placement team" is absolute nonsense - airlines come to present at Southampton and such and invite people to apply - BUT in no way shape or form do L3 offer interview advice / feedback for interviews etc - You are very much left to your own devices - anyone who disagrees with this has been indoctrinated to the high heavens! This is a common misconception with the academy. The only other option is to interview for an instructor position with L3 - this isn't really placing either as why would you spend >£100,000 to become an instructor?

Post - Training Costs

L3 don't state very clearly what cash is required post training. An Easyjet type rating costs in the region of £32,000 on top of the ungodly amount of cash that is required already - And this doesn't include accommodation and living for a couple months either in Southampton or Burgess Hill near LGW. Furthermore most of the whitetail cadets (despite being successful early on) won't start Type ratings 4 to 12 months later. This is a struggle as A. finding work can be tricky and B. Interviews themselves are expensive. Airlines such as Thomas Cook ask for £760 for interviews! And that doesn't include hotels / travel.

Bournemouth

Is an absolute disaster at the moment. Some CP's have been given delays of 5 months or more. The whole point of doing an integrated course is to fly as often as possible (weather permitting). So why pay >£100,000 to stay in some terrible accommodation for such long periods when you could save £60,000 and do it modular? L3 decided to close Phoenix at the wrong time because they were keen to avoid contractual & finance issues with Lufthansa who run the training centre at Goodyear airport - instead of phasing Goodyear out they weren't patient, and jumped to Ponte Sur in Portugal which is still having teething problems months on. BOH has taken a huge hit because of this and has been over-capacity for months. This has led to disgruntled staff and cadets - L3 have been full of empty promises. Whilst it occurred throughout some other phases of training, when you were in Bournemouth it genuinely felt like you were constantly at school and were spoken to like a 15 year old frequently which was highly unprofessional - a view shared by many from my time there, and multiple cadets who are currently there just now. Not only this but some people waited over 2 weeks between the penultimate flights and CPL & IR tests! *Remember it's an integrated course apparently...*

*Make no mistake - if you are a whitetail cadet you will constantly be delayed because L3 prioritise Easyjet cadets & RAF*

Furthermore the introduction of the RAF will only make things worse. To keep cadets sweet they are being offered a couple hours of sim time in the B737 - 300 / 700 to give them something to do in the 2/3 weeks where they don't fly...

Maintenance

BOH have some of the oldest DA42s and have been plagued with issues for a very long time. L3 have also had a change of maintenance providers which have also caused more delays...

Social Media

Do not let peoples Instagram and Blogs paint a rosey picture of training with L3 - it is far from it. The main reason they do this is to get free marketing through cadets - many millennials who don't know any better do this innocently through instagram and blogs. It has even been rumoured that some people have obtained employment just because they have a social media presence. This is because if they sit there without a job for too long it looks bad on L3 when they constantly rattle on about a 98% placement rate - I wouldn't be surprised if that is 98% of around 30 people - as I have said the majority get jobs on their own backs, particularly when Easyjet are not hiring.

I appreciate many cadets will have different experiences, however L3 is far from the finished product.

I must also re-iterate that I have a job & I am obviously delighted to have secured employment - I just feel it's right that before people invest an astronomical amount of money into a flight school that they know what they are getting themselves and their families into.

[olster]

I think the lack of investment from the airlines is appalling. How about underwriting the loans for selected trainees? I can see no advantage spending that amount of money, being treated like a child versus the modular self paced route. The training providers and certain airlines have developed a cosy little scheme to rip off trainee pilots and their financial backers, usually naive parents. Plus vat for flight training? Where is the support from Balpa?

[basilbrush12]

Glad someone said it

[flying.scotsman1]

Regarding what MrZed said about social media influencing certain candidate's success when it comes to securing a job. I have noticed that a prominent L3 blogger recieved an offer from easyJet, who had a fail on the CPL skills test and a partial for the IR. From what I was told only suitable candidates were put forward to easyJet by L3, as in, first time passes on the skills tests and a solid ATPL theory result.

To me this looks rather fishy as there are many cadets from L3 that meet the basic requirements, yet they have been sitting tight for well over a year looking for an offer from Easy. This leads me to believe that certain individuals are given a more favourable outcome based on social media presence and followers.

[Buden2]

It seems to be yes. Although around the water cooler you hear of some pretty poor situations for some CPs. The powers that be are certainly aware of it, and the communication about the situation has been good. From the sounds of it the loss of Phoenix came at exactly the wrong time, hence the ripples are still being felt. Two new flying training locations have just come online and are alleviating the delays.



More aircraft are leaving the maintenance contractor at Coventry and heading over. Again, things should be on the up from now on.

Please, I beg you, do not give undue weight to the comments made from the user above (And similar comments). In absolutely no way are the delays suffered by L3 cadets (especially those on the integrated whitetail course) getting better. It is without a shadow of a doubt that the delays are only getting worse; CP’s are being delayed before training, during training and more recently inbetween phases of training. Most CP’s, if not all, are taking a hit of up to 4 months to begin IR phases with L3 admitting to these cadets that they don’t know how or where they will provide this training post CPL.

Furthermore, the communication from L3 has been absolutely shambolic to put it lightly, our CP has been given delays whilst in New Zealand that we have not been informed about until we enquired ourselves. When L3 feels as though they have subjected their customers to enough torment they send the occasional email to remind people that they are well aware of the delays they are suffering yet continue to make absolutely no changes to their intake of cadets/policies/training. To help take the edge off the brutality of the delays L3 offer to give cadets £25 per week of delay after the first 5 weeks of delay. Ludicrous.

The facilities are overcrowded, made only worse by the fact that the schedulers are unable to get the most out of the resources at an increasingly testing time.

Things are most definetly not ‘on the up’ as this user has explained. Do not be fooled by The false advertising from L3, it is simply lies to get hold of your money and not provide the training you signed up for.

[Kurabawa]

Hi everyone, I just applied and went for the online interview for Whitetail cadet at NZ. I have read the above posts and it seems like the situation at L3 is dire regarding the UK side. Is there any reviews or feed backs for the NZ side? Many thanks.

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Please, I beg you, do not give undue weight to the comments made from the user above (And similar comments). In absolutely no way are the delays suffered by L3 cadets (especially those on the integrated whitetail course) getting better. It is without a shadow of a doubt that the delays are only getting worse; CP’s are being delayed before training, during training and more recently inbetween phases of training. Most CP’s, if not all, are taking a hit of up to 4 months to begin IR phases with L3 admitting to these cadets that they don’t know how or where they will provide this training post CPL.

Furthermore, the communication from L3 has been absolutely shambolic to put it lightly, our CP has been given delays whilst in New Zealand that we have not been informed about until we enquired ourselves. When L3 feels as though they have subjected their customers to enough torment they send the occasional email to remind people that they are well aware of the delays they are suffering yet continue to make absolutely no changes to their intake of cadets/policies/training. To help take the edge off the brutality of the delays L3 offer to give cadets £25 per week of delay after the first 5 weeks of delay. Ludicrous.

The facilities are overcrowded, made only worse by the fact that the schedulers are unable to get the most out of the resources at an increasingly testing time.

Things are most definetly not ‘on the up’ as this user has explained. Do not be fooled by The false advertising from L3, it is simply lies to get hold of your money and not provide the training you signed up for.






As with everything on pprune you should take all posts with a pinch of salt, even my own. I wrote that based on my experience at the time and what I had been told/found out what was going on. Since then more has come to light, I'll admit the situation is far from ideal for a number of cadets, but again I can only comment on my own experiences. However, all that can be said for certain is that the delays are present, and will affect the majority of cadets in the system. How long it will take for the problem to be rectified is up to L3. Even if all CP intakes were cut off now, that would not alleviate the pressure for another 6 months. The fact is it takes time to hire, train and retain instructors and other employees, so there will be no overnight fix for the issues. If I was in the driving seat I would be looking at how Phoenix could be resurrected (excuse the pun).

[TAYLA2]

As a current L3 cadet, I can only echo Buden2's comments. I would currently not advise signing up for any course with L3, until they have solved the current delays, and created enough resources to carry out the training they promise. There are currently cadets being given delays of up to 6 months spread out between the CPL LST, IR training, AQC for whitetail, and for easyJet tagged ATPL students, and for partway through core phase and between core and basic phases for MPL students.

For some this includes a 3 month gap between CPL LST and IR training, leading to serious concerns about competency levels and the risk of not achieving a first series IR pass. Given that most here have chosen the integrated route for the speedier timeline, and the skill benefit of continuous full time training, despite the extra cost over a modular, many feel lied to and woefully let down by L3.

These delays are obviously also delaying the start of a career, and hence delaying the point at which cadets can start to earn an income to start paying back loans/mortgages, and in effect lopping months of earning potential off of the end of a future career. L3's current response is to offer £25 per week to delayed cadets to 'compensate' them for the delay.

While I appreciate the difficulty the loss of Phoenix, and the continued instructor shortage, has created, that should be a factor that L3 have to bear, rather than a cost to essentially be passed onto the cadets. All the while L3 are continuing to take on new cadets and only further the current problems, without having the decency to advise them of the delays that exist, or give any idea of how they are being resolved.


ps, L3 has various social media and internet policies that I'm very close to breaching, hence the new account for anonymity as I feel that L3 should not be able to continue ripping off future cadets by taking them on without any hope of fulfilling the promises/timelines they advertise. If anyone wants to contact me via PM I will be more than happy to give further details, and to prove who I am if they feel that is required to add weight to my post.

You can’t use the Private Messaging system, add url links or images until you have an established posting history.

[ManUtd1999]

From the posts above it sounds like a pretty sad state of affairs all round. 3-6 month delays, limited airline links yet still 2x the cost of modular......

The 25/week refund is insulting more than anything else. We're talking about life-changing sums of money invested here, both for the cadets and often their families. In my opinion they are entitled to significant refunds if the course is not delivered as advertised. I would have hoped that L3 would be prepared to write off a bit of their profit to do the right thing but there you go.....

Has anyone been to an L3 open day recently? I'd be interested to hear their take on it. I believe trading standards would take a pretty dim view if they are continuing to advertise and sell courses based on timescales which they know they can't meet. That said, I'm sure the contracts cadets sign have plenty of get out clauses.

[TAYLA2]

The 25/week refund is insulting more than anything else. We're talking about life-changing sums of money invested here, both for the cadets and often their families.Yep, even before you consider the lost earning potential, the extra cost over a modular route, for what is turning into a poorer course is ridiculous.

And I wouldn't be surprised if things get worse before they get better. L3 are still taking on cadets, and the delays keep being handed out, so I have no idea how they ever think they'll catch up. The past few days they've handed out stand downs between foundation and advanced phases for some students (for those who haven't been through L3 training, foundation is the SEP VFR phase reaching a roughly PPL equivalent level, and advanced starts SEP IFR then the moves up to MEP IFR and VFR, leading to the CPL skills test), and those students have been told to expect further delays between CPL and IR training. Chatting to some of the instructors they seem to be thoroughly embarrassed, and shocked by the delays being handed out, and more and more seem to be looking for a way out.

I would have hoped that L3 would be prepared to write off a bit of their profit to do the right thing but there you go.....This has given me a huge chuckle, one of very few recently!

[JayMatlock]

Did they give any reasons for this delay ?

[Flymetothemoon1]

I’m currently in ground school at L3 and I was wondering if other schools are experiencing delays?

L3 keep telling us that the instructor shortage is an industry wide problem but surely other companies are not handling it as badly.

Here at Coventry we are running out of classroom space there are so many cadets. People being told they have to study at home during study weeks because there is nowhere for them. And with the newest CPs at max capacity I don’t know what they are planning on doing when people need to be recoursed to them! Surely if a company is struggling to keep to timings they should not be taking on more and more cadets.

[anotherplanet]

Hi, at which location have they handed out stand downs? Which is the best location to be in?

[Flymetothemoon1]

Hi, at which location have they handed out stand downs? Which is the best location to be in?

As far as I'm aware it is equal across L3. We've heard of problems/delays coming from all of the flight training centres for one reason or another.

[ManUtd1999]

Surely if a company is struggling to keep to timings they should not be taking on more and more cadets.
Exactly.

Delays due to a shortage of instructors/aircraft/facilities are disappointing and possibly a result of poor planning but can happen to any company. L3 are seemingly compounding the problem by continuing to sign new contracts (eg RAF) and not reducing the number of cadets starting each month.

[Chris the Robot]

I'm just about old enough to remember when the topic of CTC was on here in 2006-2007. Back then the cost was about £60k (which you generally got back), type ratings were generally paid for by partner airlines (who were matched with students mid-training), there was a HSBC Professional Studies loan which was available for everyone. You could only ever apply once, if you failed you didn't get a second go and only about 2% of applicants (from all financial backgrounds) got in.. At the time, it really seemed like THE place to be, shame I was a few years too young.

Seems like things have changed a bit...

[LlamaFarmer]

I'm just about old enough to remember when the topic of CTC was on here in 2006-2007. Back then the cost was about £60k (which you generally got back), type ratings were generally paid for by partner airlines (who were matched with students mid-training), there was a HSBC Professional Studies loan which was available for everyone. You could only ever apply once, if you failed you didn't get a second go and only about 2% of applicants (from all financial backgrounds) got in.. At the time, it really seemed like THE place to be, shame I was a few years too young.

Seems like things have changed a bit...

I think it was when they traded their reputation for cash, by selling themselves. And then did it again, and the investors decided to maximise their return by opening the floodgates and turning it into the sausage factory.

It became a very successful money making machine, then L3 bought it. And tried to ramp it up even more. But it seems that the quality dropped as the quantity increased. And they've reached critical mass.
Their selling point was their placement record and industry reputation. As close to guaranteed airline job as you could get, that was worth paying for, in many peoples opinion. But without that, they are nothing but an overpriced flight school.

[Sebster1238]

I'm currently in lower sixth, studying my A levels. I will soon be turning 17, and hence applying to a pilot school.

I'm looking at applying for to the generation EasyJet program at L3 academy. I understand that doing this program will give you an MPL with EasyJet. However what I don't understand is what happens next, once you have achieved you MPL and are working for EasyJet, how long do you have for them for? Also, how do you go about converting you MPL to an ATPL, so you can work for other airlines?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[EGPF]

I'm currently in lower sixth, studying my A levels. I will soon be turning 17, and hence applying to a pilot school.

I'm looking at applying for to the generation EasyJet program at L3 academy. I understand that doing this program will give you an MPL with EasyJet. However what I don't understand is what happens next, once you have achieved you MPL and are working for EasyJet, how long do you have for them for? Also, how do you go about converting you MPL to an ATPL, so you can work for other airlines?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi,

The program has the possibility of giving you an MPL or a frozen ATPL depending on many factors with selection. You'll know which license you'll hopefully be aiming to achieve whether your assigned route 1 (MPL) or route 2 (frozen ATPL) after passing selection (and competition).

Also, to answer your conversion question, L3 states:
"Holders of an MPL may apply for an ATPL upon meeting regulatory requirements as your easyJet career progresses.".

That regulatory requirement I believe is met once 1500 hours of flight time is achieved.

[tpflyer]

Anyone starting CP205/EZMP35 in Coventry on the 4th December?

[pmct]

Anyone starting CP205/EZMP35 in Coventry on the 4th December?

(Long time lurker, first time poster)

Not answering your question here but is EZMP35 related to the EasyJet MPL intake? If yes, mind me asking whether you were part of the recent assessment process (the one which opened Aug/Sep) or an earlier one?

[tpflyer]

(Long time lurker, first time poster)

Not answering your question here but is EZMP35 related to the EasyJet MPL intake? If yes, mind me asking whether you were part of the recent assessment process (the one which opened Aug/Sep) or an earlier one?

​​​​​​Hi pmct,
I believe I was part of the previous intake. Applied around April time and got accepted onto route 1 in late May. Think we were the last interview group of the 2017 programme. Best of luck if you're waiting to hear back!

[basilbrush12]

No visible end to delays, further delays for cadets in New Zealand and BOH, as well as groundschool cadets across the board. Many delays as long as 6 months, with the potential for further delays. L3's current line of excuses sound very familiar, not enough instructors and PFA didn't take as many cadets as initially agreed. The bottle neck is at the IR phase, BOH is full of RAF and PFA can't take enough; although they claim to be searching for more places to outsource training. So yes, this mainly impacts whitetail cadets, airline tagged cadets won't suffer quite as bad- they tend to get a push through the system.

Think very carefully before choosing this ATO... You could be there quite some time.

[basilbrush12]

I was just wondering where you got this information? Are you a cadet at L3? Quite curious as I'm supposed to be starting in around 6 weeks time and would like to know what I'm in for....

harveyhickss I am a cadet at L3

News spreads quite fast around most cadets. Most would give a similar story.

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

harveyhickss I am a cadet at L3

News spreads quite fast around most cadets. Most would give a similar story.

Yep delays are affecting MPL and ATPL students alike, untagged seems to have it worse but airline tagged cadets have big gaps in their training timeline too.

I'd be interested to know if other ATOs are experiencing the same level of problems?

[tecnamflyer]

Yep delays are affecting MPL and ATPL students alike, untagged seems to have it worse but airline tagged cadets have big gaps in their training timeline too.

I'd be interested to know if other ATOs are experiencing the same level of problems?

BAA are saying "hold my beer"

[Alex Whittingham]

I'd be interested to know if other ATOs are experiencing the same level of problems?

Not in the modular world, although bookings at some CPL/IR schools now extend into summer 2019 but training is taking place when booked, there's no cascade effect.

[David.98]

Hi, Ive been accepted onto an easyJet MPL but I’ve been told to transfer my EASA class 1 to an Austrian class 1. Anyone already done this/got any advice?

[SAPEG3T]

David, all easyJet pilots from 1st Jan 2019 will be moving onto the Austrian license. They are just transitioning you in line with this move. If it is anything like the IAA transferral, it is 2 forms to complete: One for the CAA and one for Austro Control.

[Dct_Mopas]

David, all easyJet pilots from 1st Jan 2019 will be moving onto the Austrian license. They are just transitioning you in line with this move. If it is anything like the IAA transferral, it is 2 forms to complete: One for the CAA and one for Austro Control.

Nope, incorrect.

All easyJet Europe employee’s are moving to an Austrian licence. All easyJet UK employee’s stay with the UK issued EASA licence.

I presume the request is more for the L3 course being an EASA MPL course, so will be easier for continuity to do the whole process with a European country. Therefore can receive an EASA MPL, which can be converted in the future if needed.

[gbotley]

All new entrants to easyJet irrespective of base whom commence an induction post March 2019 will be required to hold an Austrian issued licence. This isn’t an L3 requirement at all, it’s actually asked of by the airline - given it be written on their orange letterhead (in my case).

Any existing U.K. based employees or any new and UK based employees starting work, but not training, before March can retain the UK CAA papers. A trainee starting their course soon would finish after March 2019 and thus require Austrian papers.

@David.98 - i’d ask the individual or organisation that’s asked you to do this for guidance. As others have said, a medical state of issue is just a paper or two to adjust.

Hope this helps.

[David.98]

I have emailed L3 asking them as well but being Christmas it’ll probably take a few days for them to reply. Appreciate the help. ��

[David.98]

Anyone part of CP209, Coventry, 29/01/19? Looking to start a Facebook group if anyone's interested?

I’m on this course (EZMP37/CP209) starting 29/01/19 in Coventry. I’ve tried to pm you but because my account is new it won’t let me use messages on here. What’ve you called the Facebook group so I can look for it

[EGPF]

Hello,

I'm on CP210 intake, anyone gonna meet me in the bar?

Feel free to PM me.

I see L3 has posted its stance on Brexit on its website - working to ensure minimum disruption.

[basilbrush12]

Hello,

I'm on CP210 intake, anyone gonna meet me in the bar?

Feel free to PM me.

I see L3 has posted its stance on Brexit on its website - working to ensure minimum disruption.

They said similar when they took the RAF contract... look how that worked out.

[KWest19]

Hello,

Im on CP210 too! Gimme a shout if not I’ll see you next week


Hello,

I'm on CP210 intake, anyone gonna meet me in the bar?

Feel free to PM me.

I see L3 has posted its stance on Brexit on its website - working to ensure minimum disruption.


==============================
You can’t use the Private Messaging system, add url links or images until you have an established posting history.

[Tobias0501]

Hello everyone,

New member here! Apologies if I've posted this in the incorrect space, i'm still getting to grips with the forum. I have dreamt of being a pilot from a very young age, and have done a couple of small flights in light aircraft recently and am now hooked.

I'm looking at applying for the L3 Academy for 2020 (I believe 2019 has already closed as couldn't find this on their website?) I had a few questions regarding transition from academy to job, and also funding.

I have looked around, but the only kind of funding I can find is Pegasus personal loans, but these need to be secured against property, which at 23 I do not own. I don't really have anything to go towards it currently, as I don't have a high salary. So i'd be looking to borrow the full £96,800 they quote for training. They also require the loan to be paid back from a month after taking the loan out, which I cannot understand how anyone would be able to as in training you're not earning? Does anyone of alternative funding available? Unfortunately my parents aren't a possibility for loaning the money to me, which is another recommendation I saw.

Secondly on completion of all training, how easy was it to get a job? L3 state they have a team dedicatd to getting you employed almost straight out of graduation?

Thanks,

Tobias

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

You need to look at the current situation at L3. Inform yourself of the current issues there and make a balanced decision. There are a lot of threads on this forum that have more information: https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/617500-me-ir-instructor-shortage.html

[Tobias0501]

Seems to me the more i’ve read about L3, the worse they become. Seems that when they were originally CTC they were a tonne better. If i’m honest i’m still unsure I can afford to do it, even though it’s been my dream for years.

Training costs at £110,000 for the MPL license, without cost of food and travel just seems unobtainable for someone like me. It’s okay for people that have money that can afford it, but not all of us are as blessed. And loans compaines for pilots licensing require you to start paying back a month after you take the loan out with no payment holiday, so finding the money every month, on top of full time learning is virtually impossible.

I can’t understand why airlines aren’t offering to cover costs, and deducting from wages once you’re working full time. I know Aer Lingus did in 2018 for 10 Cadets and I bet they were people similar in position to me.

[LlamaFarmer]

I can’t understand why airlines aren’t offering to cover costs, and deducting from wages once you’re working full time.

Because, presently, they don't need to. There is a big enough supply of pilots paying their own way up front.


I know Aer Lingus did in 2018 for 10 Cadets and I bet they were people similar in position to me.

I believe Aer Lingus opened it up again. I also believe MANY MANY cadets/FOs leave Aer Lingus at the first opportunity.

[Tobias0501]

Because, presently, they don't need to. There is a big enough supply of pilots paying their own way up front.



I believe Aer Lingus opened it up again. I also believe MANY MANY cadets/FOs leave Aer Lingus at the first opportunity.

I understand in a way, why not! Just frustrating coming from somewhere thats not going to be even a fraction of the cost to complete it. The way I suggest means they still get the money back, just investing in the pilot first. I wouldn’t even mind if they added 10% on top as a charge to complete the training on a fully funded basis, requiring payback on commencement of working.

I haven’t seen much negative things about Aer lingus, but then again, i’m not in the industry so not 100% on who’s best to go for. But if i’m honest, anyone that would fund training i’d be interested in, as the oppertunity for someone like me would be too great to miss out on!