British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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This is getting really interesting...
We have BASSA drawing a line in the sand.
Unite behind BASSA.
WW determined to introduce new Ts and Cs.
Unite still concerned over the GG fiasco and that BA could have wiped them out for illegal strike action.
Unite are major backers of the Labour party.
The Labour party cannot afford to lose the donations from Unite but cannot bail out BA (lack of public cash and EU rules), so just how much influence can the government exert on BA/Unite?
If I was a gambling man I'd say we are not going to have a strike. Rather an 11th hour capitulation from Unite, BASSA will not have everything they want, but nor will the company either, cost savings from what is eventually agreed will be massaged to meet the targets and everyone will claim victory all around.
All IMHO of course...
We have BASSA drawing a line in the sand.
Unite behind BASSA.
WW determined to introduce new Ts and Cs.
Unite still concerned over the GG fiasco and that BA could have wiped them out for illegal strike action.
Unite are major backers of the Labour party.
The Labour party cannot afford to lose the donations from Unite but cannot bail out BA (lack of public cash and EU rules), so just how much influence can the government exert on BA/Unite?
If I was a gambling man I'd say we are not going to have a strike. Rather an 11th hour capitulation from Unite, BASSA will not have everything they want, but nor will the company either, cost savings from what is eventually agreed will be massaged to meet the targets and everyone will claim victory all around.
All IMHO of course...
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Woodley does not have the emotional attachment to the negotiations that BASSAs reps do. He can afford to take a dispassionate look at the negotiations, the options BA have, the support BASSA really has (as opposed to the support the tubthumping devotees claim) and decided whether or not a strike is winnable in the current climate.
Given that BA have many options, and BASSAs suport is nothing like as solid as they claim, he may well decide that a negotiated settlement that looks almost identical to what BA propose is a better outcome than losing a strike. BASSAs latest update reveals that there have been no negotiations of late and BA have flatly rejected BASSAs offers since 30th June. That doesn't look like the actions of a company that are scared by the unions.
Given that BA have many options, and BASSAs suport is nothing like as solid as they claim, he may well decide that a negotiated settlement that looks almost identical to what BA propose is a better outcome than losing a strike. BASSAs latest update reveals that there have been no negotiations of late and BA have flatly rejected BASSAs offers since 30th June. That doesn't look like the actions of a company that are scared by the unions.
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As the parent union must take legal responsibility for any andustrial action, including the possibility of legal action by the company to sue individual officers for damages, it is hardly suprising that they have the power to prevent reckless or illegal ballots.
Are you suggesting BA might punish the ground staff for action by the cabin crew?
That's a pretty hideous idea.
I understand the ground staff's chief problem with the company is over the amount of outsourcing in the cost-cutting plan. Plus a manager told me they intend to introduce the split shift/peak time working pattern that the wildcat strikes were called over.
I can't remember who said that the A4 staff largely work at Waterside...I thought a lot of them work in CRC? I think in terms of company organisation they are part of IfCE.
However, I know few details of the real proposals to these groups and only a little of their current working terms. Just like many people here know little of the reality of cabin crew's situation.
Are you suggesting BA might punish the ground staff for action by the cabin crew?
That's a pretty hideous idea.
I understand the ground staff's chief problem with the company is over the amount of outsourcing in the cost-cutting plan. Plus a manager told me they intend to introduce the split shift/peak time working pattern that the wildcat strikes were called over.
I can't remember who said that the A4 staff largely work at Waterside...I thought a lot of them work in CRC? I think in terms of company organisation they are part of IfCE.
However, I know few details of the real proposals to these groups and only a little of their current working terms. Just like many people here know little of the reality of cabin crew's situation.
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Only been with BA for 33 years, CRC ? Go on! As a Cranebank observer in all of this it seems to be going around in ever expanding circles and it is not getting anywhere.IMHO
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It's been mentioned people on here don't think Bassa has the support they think they do from the cabin crew, just wondering what this is based on ?
I work with and talk to the said Bassa members and the feeling with most of those I talk to is that they're pretty pissed off with whole thing and are very wary of the future.
I don't mean redundancies or losing their jobs.
They are more worried about BA's proposal to have flexible rostering when ever BA feels it's necessary including being called in to fly on days off with 24 hours notice, trips being changed on report, crewing the aircraft to legal minimum, (almost manageable on short haul a nightmare on longhaul if the full service our customers expect and deserve is to be delivered) If there was some sort of overtime attached to being called in on days off , similar to draft payments for our pilot community it would be more palatable, however there's not.
The cabin crew are also worried about the single nights in 14 of the long range destinations and I'm pretty sure it's mainly about quality of life and health, and financially for those full time crew who will find their 900 hour limit creeps up very quickly, leaving them on £12000 basic pay with no chance of earning the extra payments for a period of time, currently about 28 days on the current rostering system on longhaul.
Believe me having been through 2 strikes and one near strike, I dread the thought of striking again !!
If BA decide to give the 90 days notice to change the collective agreements between BA and the TU's there will be a ballot and the return will be high, partly due to it being easy to put a cross in the yes box and passions running high.
For those who believe there will be a last ditch reprieve as last time, it can't happen as the branch constitution has changed meaning there has to be a meeting called for the Bassa membership to vote yea or nae to any agreements made by unite and BA.
The reason why BA and the trade unions have not been talking over the last 2 weeks is because they can't, with a failure to agree registered there has to be a 14 day cooling off period. (which ended last Thursday)
There will be some interesting times ahead, not sure it will be September 1st, but hay do any of us know for sure........... I think not !!
I work with and talk to the said Bassa members and the feeling with most of those I talk to is that they're pretty pissed off with whole thing and are very wary of the future.
I don't mean redundancies or losing their jobs.
They are more worried about BA's proposal to have flexible rostering when ever BA feels it's necessary including being called in to fly on days off with 24 hours notice, trips being changed on report, crewing the aircraft to legal minimum, (almost manageable on short haul a nightmare on longhaul if the full service our customers expect and deserve is to be delivered) If there was some sort of overtime attached to being called in on days off , similar to draft payments for our pilot community it would be more palatable, however there's not.
The cabin crew are also worried about the single nights in 14 of the long range destinations and I'm pretty sure it's mainly about quality of life and health, and financially for those full time crew who will find their 900 hour limit creeps up very quickly, leaving them on £12000 basic pay with no chance of earning the extra payments for a period of time, currently about 28 days on the current rostering system on longhaul.
Believe me having been through 2 strikes and one near strike, I dread the thought of striking again !!
If BA decide to give the 90 days notice to change the collective agreements between BA and the TU's there will be a ballot and the return will be high, partly due to it being easy to put a cross in the yes box and passions running high.
For those who believe there will be a last ditch reprieve as last time, it can't happen as the branch constitution has changed meaning there has to be a meeting called for the Bassa membership to vote yea or nae to any agreements made by unite and BA.
The reason why BA and the trade unions have not been talking over the last 2 weeks is because they can't, with a failure to agree registered there has to be a 14 day cooling off period. (which ended last Thursday)
There will be some interesting times ahead, not sure it will be September 1st, but hay do any of us know for sure........... I think not !!
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For me it's based on reading BASSAs claims of 100% support then going downroute and finding that when you remove the intimidating militants from the scene a large proportion of the crew volunteer that they are unhappy with BASSAs conduct and have no intention of striking. Of course if you are a union hack you'd never hear that.
BASSA may have changed their constitution but they still require Tony Woodleys approval to ballot for a strike. Odds on that approval won't be forthcoming.
BASSA may have changed their constitution but they still require Tony Woodleys approval to ballot for a strike. Odds on that approval won't be forthcoming.
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I have not seen or heard any intimidation from Bassa militants, there are very few cabin crew who really want to strike.
As for TW being reluctant to authorise a ballot, it wasn't the impression I got at the last Bassa meeting. This sounds to me like superstition as none of us on this forum really know what he's thinking.
As for TW being reluctant to authorise a ballot, it wasn't the impression I got at the last Bassa meeting. This sounds to me like superstition as none of us on this forum really know what he's thinking.
Last edited by flyeruk69; 11th Aug 2009 at 09:31.
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From what I hear the vast majority are in support. 2 000 people attended a meeting. The biggest turn out ever!!
So if it makes some feel better to think that support isnt there then thats fine.
I quite fancy a trip down the river nile as well.
A sleeping giant is about to be woken and its causing panic. If there is imposition then permission will not be an issue. I cant see Unite turning down its biggest customer and in fact the biggest trade union branch in Europe!!!
So if it makes some feel better to think that support isnt there then thats fine.
I quite fancy a trip down the river nile as well.
A sleeping giant is about to be woken and its causing panic. If there is imposition then permission will not be an issue. I cant see Unite turning down its biggest customer and in fact the biggest trade union branch in Europe!!!
Last edited by am i bothered; 11th Aug 2009 at 00:43.
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A sleeping giant is about to be woken and its causing panic. If there is imposition then permission will not be an issue. I cant see Unite turning down its biggest customer and in fact the biggest trade union branch in Europe!!!
Like I wrote earlier, the BASSA members, the BASSA reps, Unite and Tony Woodley had better be extremely sure that a) any strike is 100% legal on any and every level and b) the support of the membership is definitely there. Otherwise, it's likely to be the most ineffectual and self-defeating industrial action in the UK in recent years.
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Flyer69Uk
Nice post, I agree with you that probably most crew don't want to strike and that most crew are indeed behind BASSA.
From talking to CC downroute the vast majority are behind BASSA and have been putting forward the BASSA line. Where we've managed to have an unemotional discussion about the facts and details (for example putting the facts straight on the pilots deal, discussing the challenges BA face) then I've found the CC to be a little less chest beating and more reasoned/measured in their opinions. My advice to them FWIW has always been to get the "facts" from both BASSA and BA - take a deep breath, then have a look at them and consider your position. Deciding on a position only having listened to one side of the arguement and not scrutinising what you've heard is never appropriate, especially in something as serious as this.
The "discussions" that I've had to walk away from are when individuals have basically put their fingers in their ears, started name calling and accused anyone who has a different viewpoint from BASSA of being liars. These people are quite simply beyond reason and comprehension.
Anyway, it seems to be quietening down a bit now, what's it like on BASSA and CF? Could it be that CC are happy with what's on the table? From the limited information I have seen (CC letter) it seems that BA have given some concessions.
Cheers
BB
Nice post, I agree with you that probably most crew don't want to strike and that most crew are indeed behind BASSA.
From talking to CC downroute the vast majority are behind BASSA and have been putting forward the BASSA line. Where we've managed to have an unemotional discussion about the facts and details (for example putting the facts straight on the pilots deal, discussing the challenges BA face) then I've found the CC to be a little less chest beating and more reasoned/measured in their opinions. My advice to them FWIW has always been to get the "facts" from both BASSA and BA - take a deep breath, then have a look at them and consider your position. Deciding on a position only having listened to one side of the arguement and not scrutinising what you've heard is never appropriate, especially in something as serious as this.
The "discussions" that I've had to walk away from are when individuals have basically put their fingers in their ears, started name calling and accused anyone who has a different viewpoint from BASSA of being liars. These people are quite simply beyond reason and comprehension.
Anyway, it seems to be quietening down a bit now, what's it like on BASSA and CF? Could it be that CC are happy with what's on the table? From the limited information I have seen (CC letter) it seems that BA have given some concessions.
Cheers
BB
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Listening to the crews concerns on board it appears that while BA certainly haven't given any concessions or backed down, the majority of crew see that there is a need for change and some of the tabled MOA will be acceptable at a push !!
As said previously it's the operational recovery agreement including called in on days off, with no information on what happens if you are not contactable,will disciplinarians ensue ? Less days off on euro fleet and single nights down route on longer range flights currently 2 local nights.
It's these that will drive cabin crew to strike, I do believe there is still room for negotiation with Bassa/Unite, it's just a question of finding a way through without either side losing face !!
Having said that I'm not in the room thrashing out these points !!
As said previously it's the operational recovery agreement including called in on days off, with no information on what happens if you are not contactable,will disciplinarians ensue ? Less days off on euro fleet and single nights down route on longer range flights currently 2 local nights.
It's these that will drive cabin crew to strike, I do believe there is still room for negotiation with Bassa/Unite, it's just a question of finding a way through without either side losing face !!
Having said that I'm not in the room thrashing out these points !!
Takeover offer??
BA takeover and impact on BA/negotiations with CC et al.
As BA's share price is still weak, might a take-over be a possibility?
A year or so ago, MOL had a go at taking over Aer Lingus. He was stopped by the EU and Irish Government.
Would he have a go at taking over BA? he certainly has the financial power to do so - his Chairman is also Chairman of TPG, one of the biggest and most powerful of the American private equity houses.
Is there anything to stop MOL, or anyone else, from launching a take-over whilst BA's Board are focussed on their awful results and equally awful Employee Relations?
As BA's share price is still weak, might a take-over be a possibility?
A year or so ago, MOL had a go at taking over Aer Lingus. He was stopped by the EU and Irish Government.
Would he have a go at taking over BA? he certainly has the financial power to do so - his Chairman is also Chairman of TPG, one of the biggest and most powerful of the American private equity houses.
Is there anything to stop MOL, or anyone else, from launching a take-over whilst BA's Board are focussed on their awful results and equally awful Employee Relations?
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I suspect MOL would be completely uninterested in a takeover until the company has gone bust. Then he will be able to dictate terms and conditions to all. I simply cannot see him willing to deal with strong unions such as BASSA and BALPA.
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Originally Posted by flyeruk69
....including called in on days off, with no information on what happens if you are not contactable,will disciplinarians ensue?
Starting to see an analogy yet?
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bronco
Anyway, it seems to be quietening down a bit now, what's it like on BASSA and CF?
The funniest part of the whole thread is that the Vicky Pollard type who started it found that when the standbys demanded eventually turned up at the aircraft there was one extra and they'd been removed from the Gen Dec! Sometimes the threat of an offload is whats required to put these people back into their boxes and remind them who's really in charge of the operation.
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Not sure what you mean about an analogy, yes the pilots do have forced draft, for which they are paid handsomely for. a couple of years ago it seamed that forced draft was fairly common especially on the 777 due to the shortage of pilots.
As for the cabin crew in all the time Ive been at BA the crewing figures produced by man power never seam quite right, before you say it's crew sickness, at times it is, BA are currently asking crew to work in their none working part time for the whole of August, none that can be sickness because even BA don't have a Chrystal ball, we are at the usual point of being short of crew in August.
The flight crew do indeed mainly work to scheme especially in time of disruption, fine that's how it is. The way disruption is managed tends to be more sensible when it comes to forward rosters for our flight crew,for the cabin crew and the way we are managed, the flexible rostering could last weeks or months which isn't ideal.
E.g. if the the operational recovery agreement is implemented and an individuals roster has days of 24 hour they can have their forward roster changed until such a time there is no wastage in the roster, hardly conducive to planning, especially child care !
Unfortunately what BA is proposing regarding operational recovery will not just cover times of disruption, but WHEN EVER BA feel it's necessary, which would include times of crew shortage.
My main concern about this is the consequences of not being contactable on days off or being unable to get to LHR within 24 hours and obviously being unable to rely on days off.
In any decent sort of leadership there has to be some sort of incentive for people no matter how small and the incentive has to be positive.
We all know that 1 volunteer is better than 10 pressed men !!
As for the cabin crew in all the time Ive been at BA the crewing figures produced by man power never seam quite right, before you say it's crew sickness, at times it is, BA are currently asking crew to work in their none working part time for the whole of August, none that can be sickness because even BA don't have a Chrystal ball, we are at the usual point of being short of crew in August.
The flight crew do indeed mainly work to scheme especially in time of disruption, fine that's how it is. The way disruption is managed tends to be more sensible when it comes to forward rosters for our flight crew,for the cabin crew and the way we are managed, the flexible rostering could last weeks or months which isn't ideal.
E.g. if the the operational recovery agreement is implemented and an individuals roster has days of 24 hour they can have their forward roster changed until such a time there is no wastage in the roster, hardly conducive to planning, especially child care !
Unfortunately what BA is proposing regarding operational recovery will not just cover times of disruption, but WHEN EVER BA feel it's necessary, which would include times of crew shortage.
My main concern about this is the consequences of not being contactable on days off or being unable to get to LHR within 24 hours and obviously being unable to rely on days off.
In any decent sort of leadership there has to be some sort of incentive for people no matter how small and the incentive has to be positive.
We all know that 1 volunteer is better than 10 pressed men !!
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"the Captain got told off by flight ops". Sorry to burst your bubble folks but the Captain was not in the wrong, he was perfectly correct in trying to keep the operation running with a legal number of cabin crew and Flight Ops do not tell captains off for such trivia as this. If they even noticed it would simply have been to say "Oh well, you tried your best."
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Carnage Matey.....you make me laugh and laugh and laugh..Actually as the aircrafted departed with all crew onboard and with the originator of the post you refer to..it looks to me as if Vicky Pollard was very much in charge.
You have a very unhealthy inflated view of how most cabin crew think of pilots.
Let me be blunt...if it ever happens on any of my flights I'll be advising the Captain that the aircraft will not be leaving one down with me onboard....Sorry...who's in charge. You make me laugh and laugh and laugh
You have a very unhealthy inflated view of how most cabin crew think of pilots.
Let me be blunt...if it ever happens on any of my flights I'll be advising the Captain that the aircraft will not be leaving one down with me onboard....Sorry...who's in charge. You make me laugh and laugh and laugh