British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Fc stop banging that tired drum about the pilots havng a cushy deal. we don't it's a permanent paycut pure and simple. The shares even if we see them won't make up for that. Difference is we collectively see the need for permanent change. You do not and risk condemning yourself to history. Your choice, your risk.
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Ok i hope you all can at least give me the credit of not being so naive and deluded to think il be joining BA on the current contract.
I did say changes do need to be made and i also said current crew should fight for as much as possible. To be honest the new new contract will still be better than many other airlines which is fine for me. Its the ones flying now who will not be happy to be put on this.
New T&C's and Pay are things i expect im not deluded in anyway. So save the 'Hate to break it to you blah blah blah' believe me i do have a brain and am able to understand this.
Carry on though i know some of you will..
I did say changes do need to be made and i also said current crew should fight for as much as possible. To be honest the new new contract will still be better than many other airlines which is fine for me. Its the ones flying now who will not be happy to be put on this.
New T&C's and Pay are things i expect im not deluded in anyway. So save the 'Hate to break it to you blah blah blah' believe me i do have a brain and am able to understand this.
Carry on though i know some of you will..
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BKS
I don't think anyone just decided to think you were being "naive and deluded", it's just that when you said this;
it gave the impression that you thought you would be joining on the same contract.
So, I think you are saying that it is important to you that you are on the same contract, but you realise that BASSA will have sold new joiners down the river, but that's ok, as they have to look after themselves, as opposed to the community as a whole, and even when the new joiner rates are set at market rate +10%, that will still be ok, as it is better than other airlines are offering anyway (by definition! its 10% better!)
That sounds very much like a sensible analysis to me, and one that BA management realise sounds reasonable to anyone wanting a job.
(however, I do think it is just storing up problems and resentment for the future, the 'pot' of money could be shared around fairly across the various contracts, based on ability and how hard people work, not just when they joined)
Ok i hope you all can at least give me the credit of not being so naive and deluded to think il be joining BA on the current contract.
I can wait 18 months and I don’t care. Its important that when I start I wont be on a completely different contract and will still be treated the same as current crew
To be honest the new new contract will still be better than many other airlines which is fine for me. Its the ones flying now who will not be happy to be put on this.
That sounds very much like a sensible analysis to me, and one that BA management realise sounds reasonable to anyone wanting a job.
(however, I do think it is just storing up problems and resentment for the future, the 'pot' of money could be shared around fairly across the various contracts, based on ability and how hard people work, not just when they joined)
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"I-said_no" said
Yeah, if only all new entrant crew were like BKS and were willing to work harder and earn less, so the existing crew don't have to do either!
Imagine the alternative, if the existing crew had to do a few more sectors a month so that everyone could earn the same! That would be vile!
No, it's much better that the existing crew don't budge an inch, and the newbies take all the pain.
That's the fairest way. Just look at Gatwick, all those teenagers down there are perfectly happy with their lot.
100% BASSA
Jesus
(ps - with only a few days till BA can make 2000HCE (2000-4000 real jobs) redundancies in IFCE, I think the hold pool might get a bit stagnant)
BKS, I wished more crew thought like you, hope you get a start date soon. 
Imagine the alternative, if the existing crew had to do a few more sectors a month so that everyone could earn the same! That would be vile!
No, it's much better that the existing crew don't budge an inch, and the newbies take all the pain.
That's the fairest way. Just look at Gatwick, all those teenagers down there are perfectly happy with their lot.
100% BASSA
Jesus
(ps - with only a few days till BA can make 2000HCE (2000-4000 real jobs) redundancies in IFCE, I think the hold pool might get a bit stagnant)
PPRuNe Person
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100% BASSA = 100% sold down the river? We haven't got long to wait now.
Flyingchick, you are annoying when you say a paycut for pilots is a 'cosy deal', but this thread isn't about us, remember?
Fortunately on my last few trips there has been no militancy, the crew have been very professional. Some of the senior ones I have spoken to recently are taking severance, the 'old guard' is being steadily replaced.
Flyingchick, you are annoying when you say a paycut for pilots is a 'cosy deal', but this thread isn't about us, remember?
Fortunately on my last few trips there has been no militancy, the crew have been very professional. Some of the senior ones I have spoken to recently are taking severance, the 'old guard' is being steadily replaced.
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Head firmly inserted in the clouds, the company can and will impose what ever conditions on you they like. It is just now a matter of when and how far they are willing to go. I think you are overestimating your grass roots support, most crew that I fly with don't support the BASSA stance and realise that changes need to be made. Just a few very overpaid and underworked senior luvvies now left trying to protect the sweet deal they are on at the expense of all junior crew, funny how BASSA was so willing to negotiate away the terms and conditions of new crew, nice one As for the pilot deal, considering you don't want pilots taking part in this thread you sure do mention our deal a lot. Can you tell me how much of a pay cut we are taking, over how long, what is happening to our flight pay, pension contributions, and how much harder we have agreed to work. I suspect not as BASSA was very selective in what they released about our deal to the CC. What I can't understand is why more of you don't be a bit more independent and find these things out for yourselves instead of blindly following the leadership over the edge
As for the pilot deal, considering you don't want pilots taking part in this thread you sure do mention our deal a lot. Can you tell me how much of a pay cut we are taking, over how long, what is happening to our flight pay, pension contributions, and how much harder we have agreed to work. I suspect not as BASSA was very selective in what they released about our deal to the CC. What I can't understand is why more of you don't be a bit more independent and find these things out for yourselves instead of blindly following the leadership over the edge
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FlexSRS, Why have you dissected my post and just broken it down and replied to everything when above it I explained what I meant for those like you who seem to have ‘explained to me’ why some might have misunderstood. Cleary you have too much time off maybe use your time off and days off to a better cause if I was you.
Utter waste of time really. ‘it gave that impression… blah blah blah’ God I posted something above explaining what I meant in detail and showed my understanding. Very annoying if you ask me. So much so I felt I needed to post this.
I never mentioned anything about BASSA or this river you talk about. Like I have said many times we are all different, no one person is the same. Everyone must do what they have to and not everyone will agree or disagree we are not all robots or have the same thought process.
Also FlexSRS are BA or BASSA even proposing that current crew work harder so that new recruits will be on the same pay? I think NOT! Don’t know where that came from?
We all know that new crew will not be on the same T&C’s no one is disputing that.
And talking about fair and lgw teenagers etc Who cares? Not me if im honest. You get a job, you get a base, you get pay for that specific base and even if the work is the same that’s how it works.
My sister is a dentist and makes a substantially higher salary working in central London compared to up north where she spent a year and in a greater London practice. The point is you salary is never the same or constant if you do the same job it changes and changes. If lgw get paid a certain way and lhr do that’s how it is. If BASSA did this etc etc is irrelevant to me and if it has something to do with old crew and some river you talk about then that’s a separate issue.
Who knows what will happen really. I am one person with an opinion just remember that. Each to their own.
Ok il wait for more dissecting and back lash its sort of interesting to be honest.
BKS ☺
Utter waste of time really. ‘it gave that impression… blah blah blah’ God I posted something above explaining what I meant in detail and showed my understanding. Very annoying if you ask me. So much so I felt I needed to post this.
I never mentioned anything about BASSA or this river you talk about. Like I have said many times we are all different, no one person is the same. Everyone must do what they have to and not everyone will agree or disagree we are not all robots or have the same thought process.
Also FlexSRS are BA or BASSA even proposing that current crew work harder so that new recruits will be on the same pay? I think NOT! Don’t know where that came from?
We all know that new crew will not be on the same T&C’s no one is disputing that.
And talking about fair and lgw teenagers etc Who cares? Not me if im honest. You get a job, you get a base, you get pay for that specific base and even if the work is the same that’s how it works.
My sister is a dentist and makes a substantially higher salary working in central London compared to up north where she spent a year and in a greater London practice. The point is you salary is never the same or constant if you do the same job it changes and changes. If lgw get paid a certain way and lhr do that’s how it is. If BASSA did this etc etc is irrelevant to me and if it has something to do with old crew and some river you talk about then that’s a separate issue.
Who knows what will happen really. I am one person with an opinion just remember that. Each to their own.
Ok il wait for more dissecting and back lash its sort of interesting to be honest.
BKS ☺
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deeceethree why exactly is the company doomed with people like me in the 'hold pool' i think thats very offensive. I wouldn't have got the job if i didn't meet the requirements or the relevant experience. If anything i could say us 'Hold Poolers' will save the company when we start on lesser contracts.
If you ask me deeceerthree if your so against my view on current crew fighting for what they have and that there are many of you out there who feel the same why don't you take big cuts then? why don't you work for £12k a year and smile and let the others continue to demand and get what they want?
Oh and deeceethree im sure your one of the crew who opted to work for FREE for a substantial period of time. Oh if only so many were like you eh. Not fighting for what they can and not working for free. Silly them and silly me for having a belief.
:-)
If you ask me deeceerthree if your so against my view on current crew fighting for what they have and that there are many of you out there who feel the same why don't you take big cuts then? why don't you work for £12k a year and smile and let the others continue to demand and get what they want?
Oh and deeceethree im sure your one of the crew who opted to work for FREE for a substantial period of time. Oh if only so many were like you eh. Not fighting for what they can and not working for free. Silly them and silly me for having a belief.
:-)
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bks unfortunately your last post actually shows how little you know of how BA works internally.
Firstly nobody in the CC community works for £12k a year nor is anyone being asked to work for £12k a year. The basic payment is low but is more than made up for in allowances.
Secondly all the other departments have, for quite some time now, made concessions by increasing productivity, reducing pay or doing away with an allowance based system, so when you ask why don't other people do it - well actually they already have! But that said do you honestly believe a CC member should be paid the same as say a qualified line engineer or a Director?
(And before anyone says it, the pilot's share options will never make up for the pay cuts - just read the document rather than believing the propaganda.)
As an ex Cabin Crew member at BA all I can do is remain very sad watching my colleagues and friends still there being led down a dark path by a Union who doesn't really seem to have the majority of its members best interests at heart.
Lastly bks, I am very impressed at your being happy to start on lessor terms, your future at BA on a new new contract has been sealed by the actions of Union you seem so intent on supporting. However if you want to start at BA at al,l your future colleagues at BA are going to have to make significant changes or there may not be a job for you at all.
It is a very sad situation for all concerned. BA made a not very tactful offer but in reality most of the offer pertains to increased productivity and was a good starting point but it was rejected outright by BASSA. It was the Union who offered pay cuts - how ridiculous is that! So who is really trying to lessen the financial blow to the Cabin Crew??? I hope for the best for BA's Cabin Crew but they are going to have to forget BASSA to achieve that.
Firstly nobody in the CC community works for £12k a year nor is anyone being asked to work for £12k a year. The basic payment is low but is more than made up for in allowances.
Secondly all the other departments have, for quite some time now, made concessions by increasing productivity, reducing pay or doing away with an allowance based system, so when you ask why don't other people do it - well actually they already have! But that said do you honestly believe a CC member should be paid the same as say a qualified line engineer or a Director?
(And before anyone says it, the pilot's share options will never make up for the pay cuts - just read the document rather than believing the propaganda.)
As an ex Cabin Crew member at BA all I can do is remain very sad watching my colleagues and friends still there being led down a dark path by a Union who doesn't really seem to have the majority of its members best interests at heart.
Lastly bks, I am very impressed at your being happy to start on lessor terms, your future at BA on a new new contract has been sealed by the actions of Union you seem so intent on supporting. However if you want to start at BA at al,l your future colleagues at BA are going to have to make significant changes or there may not be a job for you at all.
It is a very sad situation for all concerned. BA made a not very tactful offer but in reality most of the offer pertains to increased productivity and was a good starting point but it was rejected outright by BASSA. It was the Union who offered pay cuts - how ridiculous is that! So who is really trying to lessen the financial blow to the Cabin Crew??? I hope for the best for BA's Cabin Crew but they are going to have to forget BASSA to achieve that.
bks,
Oh really? You're so sure of an awful lot aren't you? Very cocky for one who hasn't yet made it through the portals of BA. Mind how you go now as the 'attitude' you display here is likely to set you up for a fall elsewhere. 
Now, back to the thread ..........
Oh and deeceethree im sure your one of the crew who opted to work for FREE for a substantial period of time.
Now, back to the thread ..........
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don't care about the pilots deal because it is all about that really isn't it. If we accept you get your cushy number.
Also the shares are awarded to a value, the share price is of no consequence ie. if the share price is £1, then assuming maximum award (unlikely) 13 mill shares are awarded. If the share price was £1000 then 13,000 shares are awarded.
Any talk of pilots talking up a deal to improve the share price is rubbish and shows complete ignorance of the deal.
edit: Off topic but posted as an illustanration of the half truths circulated by BASSA
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BKS
Firstly, I hope you don't take any of this debate as some sort of personal attack, it's actually quite refreshing to see someone engage with the debate on a higher level than "you must hate crew" or "you are a manager". It's also interesting to get the view point of someone on the outside waiting to get in, who hasn't yet been indoctrinated in to the BASSA way of thinking too much.
I thought the point you made here was quite interesting;
Personally, I find it really interesting that you take all this as a given. (new crew on worse Ts&Cs, bases other than LHR on worse Ts&Cs)
The point is, it really doesn't have to be like that. It's presented to the BASSA membership as a given too, which is a real shame, because after a while people start to believe it, and the only people it really suits to keep the status quo is senior, old contract LHR crew. (now, who has the influence in BASSA?)
British Airways doesn't really care how the IFCE budget is spent, they just have a figure in mind, and have to have a certain amount of crew to cover the flights. As it is, about 1/3 of the crew take about 2/3 of the money, or something approaching that. If it was all evenly spread out, it wouldn't make a jot of difference to BA.
All these things that you take as a given, they are all up for negotiation, and that, crucially is where 70% of the BASSA membership have been let down, because it doesn't suit the minority for things to be fair. When BASSA had the opportunity to negotiate with BA, everything was on the table. As long as the required cost savings were made (which they will be, one way or another) then there was unlimited scope about how to go about it.
It would have been perfectly possible to flatten out the pay structure across the various contracts and bases, as long as the bill came to the same amount. The majority could have benefited. With a fair pay structure, moving about between bases and fleets would not even be an issue. People doing the same job would get the same pay.
All these sorts of things and more could be sorted out overnight, but they wont, because it doesn't suit the minority that seem to have this ridiculous hold over the rest of the crew. Given how smart our crew are supposed to be, with so many graduates etc, it constantly amazes me. It's a psychologists dream, 'group think' or something.
When you think about how unfair a lot of it is, I'm amazed there isn't an uprising amongst the 70% who are toiling away to provide for the minority. It really doesn't have to be like that, everything is up for negotiation, it just needs people to stand up for themselves and tell the BASSA leadership to start looking out for everyone, not just themselves.
Then again, maybe the majority are just kind hearted souls who are happy getting less, for ever, just because they were born a few years later. You never know!
(I hope if you get in, and it is on worse Ts&Cs, you don't feel too demotivated when you find out how much more some of your colleagues on the same plane, doing the same job, on the same roster are getting. I don't think I'd be able to keep quiet!)
Firstly, I hope you don't take any of this debate as some sort of personal attack, it's actually quite refreshing to see someone engage with the debate on a higher level than "you must hate crew" or "you are a manager". It's also interesting to get the view point of someone on the outside waiting to get in, who hasn't yet been indoctrinated in to the BASSA way of thinking too much.
I thought the point you made here was quite interesting;
Also FlexSRS are BA or BASSA even proposing that current crew work harder so that new recruits will be on the same pay? I think NOT! Don’t know where that came from?
We all know that new crew will not be on the same T&C’s no one is disputing that.
And talking about fair and lgw teenagers etc Who cares? Not me if im honest. You get a job, you get a base, you get pay for that specific base and even if the work is the same that’s how it works.
We all know that new crew will not be on the same T&C’s no one is disputing that.
And talking about fair and lgw teenagers etc Who cares? Not me if im honest. You get a job, you get a base, you get pay for that specific base and even if the work is the same that’s how it works.
The point is, it really doesn't have to be like that. It's presented to the BASSA membership as a given too, which is a real shame, because after a while people start to believe it, and the only people it really suits to keep the status quo is senior, old contract LHR crew. (now, who has the influence in BASSA?)
British Airways doesn't really care how the IFCE budget is spent, they just have a figure in mind, and have to have a certain amount of crew to cover the flights. As it is, about 1/3 of the crew take about 2/3 of the money, or something approaching that. If it was all evenly spread out, it wouldn't make a jot of difference to BA.
All these things that you take as a given, they are all up for negotiation, and that, crucially is where 70% of the BASSA membership have been let down, because it doesn't suit the minority for things to be fair. When BASSA had the opportunity to negotiate with BA, everything was on the table. As long as the required cost savings were made (which they will be, one way or another) then there was unlimited scope about how to go about it.
It would have been perfectly possible to flatten out the pay structure across the various contracts and bases, as long as the bill came to the same amount. The majority could have benefited. With a fair pay structure, moving about between bases and fleets would not even be an issue. People doing the same job would get the same pay.
All these sorts of things and more could be sorted out overnight, but they wont, because it doesn't suit the minority that seem to have this ridiculous hold over the rest of the crew. Given how smart our crew are supposed to be, with so many graduates etc, it constantly amazes me. It's a psychologists dream, 'group think' or something.
When you think about how unfair a lot of it is, I'm amazed there isn't an uprising amongst the 70% who are toiling away to provide for the minority. It really doesn't have to be like that, everything is up for negotiation, it just needs people to stand up for themselves and tell the BASSA leadership to start looking out for everyone, not just themselves.
Then again, maybe the majority are just kind hearted souls who are happy getting less, for ever, just because they were born a few years later. You never know!
(I hope if you get in, and it is on worse Ts&Cs, you don't feel too demotivated when you find out how much more some of your colleagues on the same plane, doing the same job, on the same roster are getting. I don't think I'd be able to keep quiet!)
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FlexSRS and others, this is a forum i had an opinion and i've said it in nearly every post everyone is different and will have a different view. I still stand by that. I am excited to join BA on whatever contract i get. I am here for the experience not the hope of earning mega bucks if im honest.
You mentioned so much about lgw and current crew contracts etc and im aware of this having crew in my family.
And please don't worry about me feeling demotivated working the same trips as other crew who get paid more than me. You don't even know me. Nice that you care though..
Like i said im here for the experience and i also made the point that accross the board in other careers peoples pay is not the same. I used my dentists sister as an example, look at nurses, bankers, etc etc etc. No one is paid the same in any job!
I think i'll let your debates go on and on. Remember i am one person who has an opinion. And in the hold pool and across 14,000 cabin crew they will all have an opinion. You can't make everyone happy. Do what you have to do.
Im just saying if it was me and i was used to a way of living i would like to know i did as much as i could to protect it.
Hope to fly in the future! :-)
You mentioned so much about lgw and current crew contracts etc and im aware of this having crew in my family.
And please don't worry about me feeling demotivated working the same trips as other crew who get paid more than me. You don't even know me. Nice that you care though..
Like i said im here for the experience and i also made the point that accross the board in other careers peoples pay is not the same. I used my dentists sister as an example, look at nurses, bankers, etc etc etc. No one is paid the same in any job!
I think i'll let your debates go on and on. Remember i am one person who has an opinion. And in the hold pool and across 14,000 cabin crew they will all have an opinion. You can't make everyone happy. Do what you have to do.
Im just saying if it was me and i was used to a way of living i would like to know i did as much as i could to protect it.
Hope to fly in the future! :-)
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Qantas now best paid UK CC...
Hi all,
Sorry if this isnt 100% relevant to this thread but I read that Qantas are giving all UK CC basic pay increase and increase in sector pay, making them the best paid UK airline (excluding old BA contracts). I was wondering if anyone has any idea if BA intend to compete with this as I know the new contracts were trying to be sold as market rate + 10%...
Does anyone know if BA will ensure all levels are the market rate + 10%, so temps who have been asked back and are now on their second or third year will also have the + 10%?? Interesting to know as my current airline is in 'salary talks'
Thanks
Sorry if this isnt 100% relevant to this thread but I read that Qantas are giving all UK CC basic pay increase and increase in sector pay, making them the best paid UK airline (excluding old BA contracts). I was wondering if anyone has any idea if BA intend to compete with this as I know the new contracts were trying to be sold as market rate + 10%...
Does anyone know if BA will ensure all levels are the market rate + 10%, so temps who have been asked back and are now on their second or third year will also have the + 10%?? Interesting to know as my current airline is in 'salary talks'
Thanks
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How's the weather in fairyland, FlexSRS? The real world is just not like your left wing utopia. Any crew member with 25 years service is likely to have financial commitments (like mortgages and loans) made on the expectation of a certain salary and it wouldn't be reasonable to see their homes reposessed by taking their hard earned income away. Anymore than one would expect a senior training captain on 747's to have his salary flattened out to that of an Airbus 2 stripe FO. Pay should reflect both length of loyal service and level of responsibility and there are very few CSD's that are gold-plated (on my fleet, armour-plated would be more useful)!
When you join a company like BA you receive a contract which sets out your pay, prospects, pension and terms and conditions. We all have a choice not to sign in the beginning but no-one expects the goal posts to be moved afterwards. There is no evidence that staff on new contracts work harder than those on old contracts and, in my experience of managing the crew on the aircraft, in each set there is both brilliance and mediocrity. Our new crew may start on a lower salary but at present have the option to end up as a 'gold-plated CSD' one day. We'd like them all to still have that to aspire to.
Hopefully this debate will be resolved soon by ACAS because the biggest loser will be CRM if it continues like this and with our safety record at the moment, that could be a high price to pay.
When you join a company like BA you receive a contract which sets out your pay, prospects, pension and terms and conditions. We all have a choice not to sign in the beginning but no-one expects the goal posts to be moved afterwards. There is no evidence that staff on new contracts work harder than those on old contracts and, in my experience of managing the crew on the aircraft, in each set there is both brilliance and mediocrity. Our new crew may start on a lower salary but at present have the option to end up as a 'gold-plated CSD' one day. We'd like them all to still have that to aspire to.
Hopefully this debate will be resolved soon by ACAS because the biggest loser will be CRM if it continues like this and with our safety record at the moment, that could be a high price to pay.
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ottergirl
Very valid points about length of service and people having mortgages to pay.
However, the world DOES change whether we like it or not. Personally, I subscribe to the need for that change. I'd rather make alterations to my terms and conditions than be without a job / employer.
All I'd have liked is for BASSA to have asked ME how I'd best like to make those changes. For reasons such as 'current financial commitments', I'd like to meet most of the IFCE target by working harder and giving up agreements which I feel don't impact too much on my life; rather than take a paycut.
BA didn't propose a paycut, BASSA did. I'm less than happy.
Others will disagree.
Very valid points about length of service and people having mortgages to pay.
However, the world DOES change whether we like it or not. Personally, I subscribe to the need for that change. I'd rather make alterations to my terms and conditions than be without a job / employer.
All I'd have liked is for BASSA to have asked ME how I'd best like to make those changes. For reasons such as 'current financial commitments', I'd like to meet most of the IFCE target by working harder and giving up agreements which I feel don't impact too much on my life; rather than take a paycut.
BA didn't propose a paycut, BASSA did. I'm less than happy.
Others will disagree.
Last edited by Nutjob; 25th Aug 2009 at 09:45.
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Dolly27
I believe that in the long term, market forces will dictate these pay levels. If BA can pay £8k and get the quality of staff they want, then they will do so. If they're not attracting / retaining the right people at that level, then they'll have to up the salary.
Not sure about a guarantee to be market rate +10% but that does seem to be the level that (in BA's opinion) will attract the desired quality of UK CC.
Does anyone know if BA will ensure all levels are the market rate + 10%, so temps who have been asked back and are now on their second or third year will also have the + 10%?? Interesting to know as my current airline is in 'salary talks'
Not sure about a guarantee to be market rate +10% but that does seem to be the level that (in BA's opinion) will attract the desired quality of UK CC.