British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Fume Event ... not IF there is a YES but how big it will be.
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Fume Event said:
It is not just WW's agenda, it is that of the Non-Exec Directors, the board, the leadership team and the City.
It would be a VERY brave person / union to bet against him doing just that. It would bring about a relatively quick end to the dispute and would be supported by all of the above and furthermore demonstrate to the public that the politics of the 1970's have been finally exorcised from BA for good.
I think you are deluding yourself and BASSA followers if you think it could not happen
Well Top Bunk. BA is not Aer Lingus. There is no way that the airline could be shut down for a week just to push Walsh's agenda, and all over Christmas and the New Year as well.
It would be a VERY brave person / union to bet against him doing just that. It would bring about a relatively quick end to the dispute and would be supported by all of the above and furthermore demonstrate to the public that the politics of the 1970's have been finally exorcised from BA for good.
I think you are deluding yourself and BASSA followers if you think it could not happen
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As good as it gets.....
Originally posted by Flyinspanner
Slickster, not saying that CF or union website is 'better' - just that some of us wanted a reasoned discussion of 'facts' and need somewhere to get that reasoned clarity, as lets face it I'm sure many of us know there has been faults made by both sides in this debacle. I had hoped for a more adult 'conversation'. (thought it may be available here-maybe not)
Slickster, not saying that CF or union website is 'better' - just that some of us wanted a reasoned discussion of 'facts' and need somewhere to get that reasoned clarity, as lets face it I'm sure many of us know there has been faults made by both sides in this debacle. I had hoped for a more adult 'conversation'. (thought it may be available here-maybe not)
For what it's worth, IMHO this is a far more reasonable and respectable website having read the other two with a friend. It's also moderated better in my view.
I'm not on either of them as I'm with Amicus, but some of the language and name calling on the other two websites is obscene, to say the least.
As for anyone who uses the user name of a Porn Star (Ron Jeremy) well, say no more!
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Top bunk
An interesting point.
That may be the quickest way to upset another Irishman.
BA could then employ his experienced cabin crew and he could have those of BASSA as they would be available experienced cabin crew.
I'll take my devil's advocate hat off now!!!
An interesting point.
That may be the quickest way to upset another Irishman.
BA could then employ his experienced cabin crew and he could have those of BASSA as they would be available experienced cabin crew.
I'll take my devil's advocate hat off now!!!
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Fume Event & CFC
Just so you can't say you weren't warned. The vast majority of crew I speak to say that even if they vote YES to a strike (many of them will) they will not actually strike on the day. The prospect of losing pay and ultimately, their very livelihood, will prevent them actually striking.
So, if by some miracle BA don't hamstring BASSA in the courts before Day 1 of the strike, you WILL find that 20-strong picket line a very lonely and cold place.
I'll bet my house that my prediction (BA beating BASSA in the courts, damp squib of a strike or Unite reigning BASSA in AGAIN) will be closer to the mark than your expectations.
The stakes are high. If Willie backs down then BA lose every effort they've made with every other staff group to save money. The pilot's deal rests on our cost-savings. So there's IFCE's £127m and Flight Ops' £39m at stake if he loses.
BA can't wait to get rid of the militants who post some of the most disgraceful and frankly, dangerous (e.g poisoning pilots) opinions. I hope they get rid of them too, as I'm ashamed to be associated with these people.
Just so you can't say you weren't warned. The vast majority of crew I speak to say that even if they vote YES to a strike (many of them will) they will not actually strike on the day. The prospect of losing pay and ultimately, their very livelihood, will prevent them actually striking.
So, if by some miracle BA don't hamstring BASSA in the courts before Day 1 of the strike, you WILL find that 20-strong picket line a very lonely and cold place.
I'll bet my house that my prediction (BA beating BASSA in the courts, damp squib of a strike or Unite reigning BASSA in AGAIN) will be closer to the mark than your expectations.
The stakes are high. If Willie backs down then BA lose every effort they've made with every other staff group to save money. The pilot's deal rests on our cost-savings. So there's IFCE's £127m and Flight Ops' £39m at stake if he loses.
BA can't wait to get rid of the militants who post some of the most disgraceful and frankly, dangerous (e.g poisoning pilots) opinions. I hope they get rid of them too, as I'm ashamed to be associated with these people.
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Miss Malone and her team are definitely using their imagination when writing their newsletters! Or is it lack of imagination.. ?
BASSA > Latest News
EUROFLEET MATRIX
Nov 13th, 2009 by admin
EUROFLEET MATRIX AND PRODUCT UPDATE
Many of you will by now have received the latest publication (or should we say ’comic’) from IFCE entitled crew complements and service standards.
We say comic, but of course the imposition of these draconian crewing levels is no laughing matter, so we’ll deal with these first.
It would seem, but not yet confirmed, that they have just realised that Gatwick only serve a deli box in ET on a Band 4, whereas we serve a hot meal.
The myth that our levels are aligned with Gatwick would be totally exposed if they kept the same crewing level with a completely different product.
So therefore on an A320 with 24+ Club you will have 5 crew. Also on a 767 (again Band 4 only) if over 20 Club you will now get an 8th crew member, although with a low club load and 80%+ loading this is still 2 less crew members than we currently get.
Don’t forget....Gatwick do NOT fly A320s/A321s/B757s/B767s so they have just cobbled together a matrix.
In case you think BA have done it out of concern for the crew, think again......
They have basically "robbed Peter, to pay Paul". They have increased the matrix on the 757 so that on many Band 3 flights with 56 Club you will only get 5 crew. Even more drastically they have culled the crewing levels on domestics (i.e. 3 on a NCL with 114 passengers should be fun, as should 4 on a MAN with 126 passengers).
Other than that, the matrix changes are as we warned you last week.
Moving on to the rest of the comic, if it wasn’t so sad what they are doing to this once proud company, some of it would be hilarious.
Glenn Reynolds (Manager EF) is no mug. After reading this comic he already seems to be distancing himself from the whole thing.
In his introduction, (2nd paragraph), he says "we’ve put this booklet together with your input". We are not certain who he is referring to?
Your TUs were "invited" to a presentation a couple of weeks ago - not a discussion or negotiation - just a presentation on the matrix. We refused......"turkeys not voting for Christmas springs to mind".
It is also not beyond IFCE to come out with a statement that they have had full discussion with us about the matrix, so to be totally clear, we have had NO input at all.
So unless some of you have secretly been sneaking into Waterside late at night to tell managers that it’s a great idea to cull the crewing levels, then possibly he realises the likely reaction to this "guide" and is already lining others up for the blame.
Just a quick glance at some of the pages will clearly show that crew had nothing to do with this.
Page 5 Crew role and responsibilities
- Who is responsible for overseeing ET on a 767?
Page 6 Allocation of crew - On an A319 with 3 crew, suggested resource allocation is 1 in Club and 2 in Euro or 2 Club and 1 in Euro
- That took 9 months to work out!
Page 9 Apple juice should not be proactively offered on Bands 1/2 - so they lie it down. - Sadly once opened lying it down is a bad idea as the top will be full of leaking juice!
Page 10 The trolley top pictures may well win a Turner art prize, but not very practical.
Page 11 PAs "on this flight today in ET we will be offering"
- It seems the words "sod all" have been missed out.
Page 12 Appendix 1 - Operating as the SCCM.
- Presumably they anticipate many more SCCMs going sick downroute, perhaps because of the increased workload or possibly one or two of them may decide to jump ship halfway through a trip as they have had enough of this whole sorry mess. Either way what a thoughtful touch - i.e. the acting SCCM should introduce yourself to flight crew. We’d never have thought of that!
Page13 Operating back to base with less than minimum crew i.e. A319 2 crew - suggest one at the front and one at the back.
- Wow! Touch of Mastermind there! Not sure what other options there were? Maybe one in the hold, and one in the flight deck?
By now you will have got the picture. This has been compiled by pen pushers in Waterside, with graphs and felt pens, who wouldn’t know a customer if one fell on them.
Everyday things for us like turbulence, an ill passenger, broken ovens, no IFE, a jammed trolley are like a foreign language to them. It’s all about timings & nothing to do with customer service e.g. you can serve a passenger in 38 seconds so 3 crew and 100 passengers become a doddle on a 40 minute flight.
But there is cunning in their plan. They know that our customers don’t fly with us for the product. They certainly don’t fly with us for the brand - Willie & Co have destroyed that, but they do fly with us for safety as we have the best pilots in the world, and they fly with us because of YOU - the best cabin crew in the world! and they know, because you care, even if there was 1 crew member and 200 passengers, that that crew member would still try to look after and attend to as many as possible, because this community is one of the few that actually care about OUR customers.
In the introduction of the new crew complements and service standards it says ‘In such challenging times it has never been so crucial for us to focus our efforts on delivering excellent service to our customers’, so it’s ironic that the revised "BA way" under BRITISH service standards are now actively anticipating that they will be an increase in conflict and confrontation as they would like us to be and we quote "dignified, respectful and calm in the face of frustration or anger from our customers" !!!!
BA are still determined to impose the matrix changes from the 1st Dec ’09.
The arguments over all the changes will be fought elsewhere.
Work as normally as you can in the meantime, but don’t cut corners putting yourself and others at risk.
Do not leap out of your seat as the wheels go up, or attempt to serve hot drinks if the seatbelt signs are on.
Forget about completing IFAs & the flight crew may have to make their own tea.
Record every occasion you can’t complete the service.
At a recent EF Health and Safety meeting, BASSA has insisted BA give us written guidelines for SCCMs regarding procedures if the cabin service including clearing in has not been completed at the 10 minutes to landing call, as this is a safety requirement.
The only duties crew should be performing after 10 minutes to landing call are safety related.
We suggest that you carry your useful (comic) reference guide with you, and show the first customer in ET on a Geneva that asks for a tomato juice why he can’t have it and show the last 4 rows of passengers on a NCL when disembarking why they couldn’t get a drink.
The answer is simple.....BA and it’s managers don’t think they’re worth it.
gl
BASSA > Latest News
EUROFLEET MATRIX
Nov 13th, 2009 by admin
EUROFLEET MATRIX AND PRODUCT UPDATE
Many of you will by now have received the latest publication (or should we say ’comic’) from IFCE entitled crew complements and service standards.
We say comic, but of course the imposition of these draconian crewing levels is no laughing matter, so we’ll deal with these first.
It would seem, but not yet confirmed, that they have just realised that Gatwick only serve a deli box in ET on a Band 4, whereas we serve a hot meal.
The myth that our levels are aligned with Gatwick would be totally exposed if they kept the same crewing level with a completely different product.
So therefore on an A320 with 24+ Club you will have 5 crew. Also on a 767 (again Band 4 only) if over 20 Club you will now get an 8th crew member, although with a low club load and 80%+ loading this is still 2 less crew members than we currently get.
Don’t forget....Gatwick do NOT fly A320s/A321s/B757s/B767s so they have just cobbled together a matrix.
In case you think BA have done it out of concern for the crew, think again......
They have basically "robbed Peter, to pay Paul". They have increased the matrix on the 757 so that on many Band 3 flights with 56 Club you will only get 5 crew. Even more drastically they have culled the crewing levels on domestics (i.e. 3 on a NCL with 114 passengers should be fun, as should 4 on a MAN with 126 passengers).
Other than that, the matrix changes are as we warned you last week.
Moving on to the rest of the comic, if it wasn’t so sad what they are doing to this once proud company, some of it would be hilarious.
Glenn Reynolds (Manager EF) is no mug. After reading this comic he already seems to be distancing himself from the whole thing.
In his introduction, (2nd paragraph), he says "we’ve put this booklet together with your input". We are not certain who he is referring to?
Your TUs were "invited" to a presentation a couple of weeks ago - not a discussion or negotiation - just a presentation on the matrix. We refused......"turkeys not voting for Christmas springs to mind".
It is also not beyond IFCE to come out with a statement that they have had full discussion with us about the matrix, so to be totally clear, we have had NO input at all.
So unless some of you have secretly been sneaking into Waterside late at night to tell managers that it’s a great idea to cull the crewing levels, then possibly he realises the likely reaction to this "guide" and is already lining others up for the blame.
Just a quick glance at some of the pages will clearly show that crew had nothing to do with this.
Page 5 Crew role and responsibilities
- Who is responsible for overseeing ET on a 767?
Page 6 Allocation of crew - On an A319 with 3 crew, suggested resource allocation is 1 in Club and 2 in Euro or 2 Club and 1 in Euro
- That took 9 months to work out!
Page 9 Apple juice should not be proactively offered on Bands 1/2 - so they lie it down. - Sadly once opened lying it down is a bad idea as the top will be full of leaking juice!
Page 10 The trolley top pictures may well win a Turner art prize, but not very practical.
Page 11 PAs "on this flight today in ET we will be offering"
- It seems the words "sod all" have been missed out.
Page 12 Appendix 1 - Operating as the SCCM.
- Presumably they anticipate many more SCCMs going sick downroute, perhaps because of the increased workload or possibly one or two of them may decide to jump ship halfway through a trip as they have had enough of this whole sorry mess. Either way what a thoughtful touch - i.e. the acting SCCM should introduce yourself to flight crew. We’d never have thought of that!
Page13 Operating back to base with less than minimum crew i.e. A319 2 crew - suggest one at the front and one at the back.
- Wow! Touch of Mastermind there! Not sure what other options there were? Maybe one in the hold, and one in the flight deck?
By now you will have got the picture. This has been compiled by pen pushers in Waterside, with graphs and felt pens, who wouldn’t know a customer if one fell on them.
Everyday things for us like turbulence, an ill passenger, broken ovens, no IFE, a jammed trolley are like a foreign language to them. It’s all about timings & nothing to do with customer service e.g. you can serve a passenger in 38 seconds so 3 crew and 100 passengers become a doddle on a 40 minute flight.
But there is cunning in their plan. They know that our customers don’t fly with us for the product. They certainly don’t fly with us for the brand - Willie & Co have destroyed that, but they do fly with us for safety as we have the best pilots in the world, and they fly with us because of YOU - the best cabin crew in the world! and they know, because you care, even if there was 1 crew member and 200 passengers, that that crew member would still try to look after and attend to as many as possible, because this community is one of the few that actually care about OUR customers.
In the introduction of the new crew complements and service standards it says ‘In such challenging times it has never been so crucial for us to focus our efforts on delivering excellent service to our customers’, so it’s ironic that the revised "BA way" under BRITISH service standards are now actively anticipating that they will be an increase in conflict and confrontation as they would like us to be and we quote "dignified, respectful and calm in the face of frustration or anger from our customers" !!!!
BA are still determined to impose the matrix changes from the 1st Dec ’09.
The arguments over all the changes will be fought elsewhere.
Work as normally as you can in the meantime, but don’t cut corners putting yourself and others at risk.
Do not leap out of your seat as the wheels go up, or attempt to serve hot drinks if the seatbelt signs are on.
Forget about completing IFAs & the flight crew may have to make their own tea.
Record every occasion you can’t complete the service.
At a recent EF Health and Safety meeting, BASSA has insisted BA give us written guidelines for SCCMs regarding procedures if the cabin service including clearing in has not been completed at the 10 minutes to landing call, as this is a safety requirement.
The only duties crew should be performing after 10 minutes to landing call are safety related.
We suggest that you carry your useful (comic) reference guide with you, and show the first customer in ET on a Geneva that asks for a tomato juice why he can’t have it and show the last 4 rows of passengers on a NCL when disembarking why they couldn’t get a drink.
The answer is simple.....BA and it’s managers don’t think they’re worth it.
gl
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BA can't wait to get rid of the militants who post some of the most disgraceful and frankly, dangerous (e.g poisoning pilots) opinions. I hope they get rid of them too, as I'm ashamed to be associated with these people.
I hope they get rid of a couple of particular members from some other forums. Some of them are not the most clever people on earth and give the impression that they have been dumped and dragged behind a train.
I also hope Miss Lala will throw in the towel and stay in America for an eternity.
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Why oh why do they have to call these things "comics"?
You may not agree with it but you can point out your observations with dignity, facetiousness is the province of desperate men.
Surely their (BASSA) members deserve better.
You may not agree with it but you can point out your observations with dignity, facetiousness is the province of desperate men.
Surely their (BASSA) members deserve better.
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Originally Posted by BASSA
Don’t forget....Gatwick do NOT fly A320s/A321s/B757s/B767s so they have just cobbled together a matrix.
But then as it's a Gatwick thing I suppose BASSA wouldn't know.
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Your TUs were "invited" to a presentation a couple of weeks ago - not a discussion or negotiation - just a presentation on the matrix. We refused......"turkeys not voting for Christmas springs to mind".
We need to vote NO to save our jobs, and to force change within our union leadership
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Fumeevent quote:-
..... but apparently it's OK for Union to do that to it's fodder...sorry members
.......... you cannot rule your staff by confrontation, bullying, harassment, intimidation and imposition..
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We suggest that you carry your useful (comic) reference guide with you, and show the first customer in ET on a Geneva that asks for a tomato juice why he can’t have it and show the last 4 rows of passengers on a NCL when disembarking why they couldn’t get a drink.
You really think your "Customer" (Victim?) is going to give a flying **** about your grievances with your emloyer? If he can't get a drink on his flight then he'll just book with someone else next time. And badmouth you to all his colleagues and fellow pax.
You think the last 4 rows on the hypothetical NCL will just sit quietly while you read out the reasons why they couldn't get a drink? You'll be lucky if all you get in return is verbal abuse! Ultimately, you lose.
I don't work for BA, but I book an awful lot of positioning flights with BA around the UK for my airline's flight crews.
Fortunately we mainly deal with the consistently excellent MAN and LGW crews. I've enjoyed their services myself and they're always a pleasure to fly with.
It seems I'm indeed fortunate that I seldom have to risk the nasty/nice lottery that is LHR. although I'm sure that once BA have got rid of the last of these 70s throwbacks you will all have a uniformly great airline once again.
Good luck to all you independent thinkers out there!
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For all you BASSA members I feel for you in that your union has misrepresented the best interests of you all. It continues to issue rhetoric and sound bites based on untruths whilst, fundamentally, denying the grave state of the business - unforgivable as well as indefensible.
IMHO, the reps lack the both the intellect and business nous to fairly negotiate a way forward - their answer?, the medieval tactic of raising the drawbridge - a crude and destructive ploy.
IMHO, the reps lack the both the intellect and business nous to fairly negotiate a way forward - their answer?, the medieval tactic of raising the drawbridge - a crude and destructive ploy.
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Just for giggles I thought I would revisit the BASSA homepage....to join our professional little group, you have to download Part 1 and Part 2 of the application form.
This is copied from the Part 1 of the application form that is on BASSA's website at the moment..........it shows how "in touch" they are!!
The present union leadership is a disgrace!
This is copied from the Part 1 of the application form that is on BASSA's website at the moment..........it shows how "in touch" they are!!
We also look after
our bases in Manchester,
Glasgow, Birmingham and
Gatwick. In addition BASSA
attends regular meetings with Rod
Eddington and the board of
directors for consultation on the
direction of our company.our bases in Manchester,
Glasgow, Birmingham and
Gatwick. In addition BASSA
attends regular meetings with Rod
Eddington and the board of
directors for consultation on the
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By the way, for those on the BASSA Forum who say (can you tell I'm getting real frustrated with the rubbish that is spouted there?)
"the pilots are our colleagues and if they stuck by us during our times of difficulty then in the long run it could make their lives an awful lot smoother"
Two things.
1. I believe they ARE sticking by us and most are just incredibly frustrated as they believe they see where all this is heading - a spectacular failure for BASSA with the "cost" of threatened strike action added to OUR cost-savings. i.e THEIR friends and partners stuck with even worse T & C's than BA ever proposed - due entirely to the juvenile approach of the mighty BASSA.
2. They CAN'T "stick by us" by taking any industrial because they are in a different job role and with a different union. Any action would be deemed secondary action and would result in them losing their jobs. Would YOU honestly strike for them? No? Well then why expect them to strike for us?
"the pilots are our colleagues and if they stuck by us during our times of difficulty then in the long run it could make their lives an awful lot smoother"
Two things.
1. I believe they ARE sticking by us and most are just incredibly frustrated as they believe they see where all this is heading - a spectacular failure for BASSA with the "cost" of threatened strike action added to OUR cost-savings. i.e THEIR friends and partners stuck with even worse T & C's than BA ever proposed - due entirely to the juvenile approach of the mighty BASSA.
2. They CAN'T "stick by us" by taking any industrial because they are in a different job role and with a different union. Any action would be deemed secondary action and would result in them losing their jobs. Would YOU honestly strike for them? No? Well then why expect them to strike for us?
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Work as normally as you can in the meantime, but don’t cut corners putting yourself and others at risk.
Do not leap out of your seat as the wheels go up, or attempt to serve hot drinks if the seatbelt signs are on.
Forget about completing IFAs & the flight crew may have to make their own tea.
Record every occasion you can’t complete the service.
At a recent EF Health and Safety meeting, BASSA has insisted BA give us written guidelines for SCCMs regarding procedures if the cabin service including clearing in has not been completed at the 10 minutes to landing call, as this is a safety requirement.
The only duties crew should be performing after 10 minutes to landing call are safety related.
We suggest that you carry your useful (comic) reference guide with you, and show the first customer in ET on a Geneva that asks for a tomato juice why he can’t have it and show the last 4 rows of passengers on a NCL when disembarking why they couldn’t get a drink.
I may be way off the mark here, but I can't help comparing some of the above, minus the infantile elements, to the court transcripts from the Hong Kong 49ers thread over on R&N.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...tice-last.html
http://www.cathaypilotsunion.org/pro...CXJudgment.pdf
Yes, they eventually won their case for unfair dismissal, but it took 8 years. No doubt, BASSA supporters will say that it all happened in a different country, under different laws and that times have changed since then, so is therefore not relevant. Maybe they are right. But does anyone really want to test that theory out, especially in the current climate?
Jsl
"the pilots are our colleagues and if they stuck by us during our times of difficulty then in the long run it could make their lives an awful lot smoother"
Interesting, is that a thinly veiled threat?
Interesting, is that a thinly veiled threat?
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the flight crew may have to make their own tea
Seriously, that BASSA missive is one giant bleat, crew from other airlines reading this must be agog at BASSA's ranting as there seems to be no case for it..... 4 on a MAN shuttle?
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It appears crew can't even stick together themselves! Apparently there have been a number of complaints to BA management from crewmembers about being bullied on the aircraft by more militant crew. Bet BASSA wished they hadn't gone on about reporting bullying so much now.
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Erm, I'm not sure that BASSA should use the "turkeys vote for christmas' analogy. Whether they vote or not, Christmas still comes around and the turkeys are plucked, stuffed and cooked. Pretty soon BASSA will know how they feel!