British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[potopilot]

You guys make me laugh....you really do. Your on here yacking about the "whats the big deal" for cabin crew to work one down.You dont get your cappuccinos on board you go into a flight long huff.

BA have been systematically trying to erode Cabin Crew T&Cs for over 10 years now. For the most part they have been planning and scheming behind closed doors. If the LT were really interested in establishing an open an honest relationship with BASSA I have no doubts that BA would fly regularly with less crew when the circumstances dictated. Now I know some of you will not quite get the relevance of that....and some will not care and continue with your rather childish anti cabin crew rhetoric. However, I know that the more enlightened of your brethren will see the truth in it and at least have the good grace to keep out of it.

Walsh may or may not back down.....Woodley will have no choice........BASSA will not back down on this one......errrrr BALPA already has.......again

[Human Factor]

Woodley will have no choice.

According to BASSA's last release, it is entirely Woodley's choice.

Which is it?

[potopilot]

Who's going to have you then?

You see thats where you guys get it wrong again. Most cabin crew in BA are highly qualified and have a diverse range of skills. We are more able to readily adapt. I know lawyers,teachers,nurses,policemen....the list is endless. Me personally.....I have a degree in petroleum engineering....would walk into a job tomorrow( sounds like bragging....but you did ask)

Now you guys generally only know how to do one thing. In a world of decreasing flying capacity the word " extinct " springs to mind. You would be much better advised to get behind the cabin crew community on this one..........

[mandyconn]

Potopilot - Good well balanced post. You're like a breath of fresh air.

[potopilot]

Which is it ?

Do you not see the political ramifications of what BA are trying to acheive here. They are attempting to rip up our contracts without any consultation. Do you not think that every other big company in the UK is watching this with great interest. If BA are successful you can say goodbye to Unite and every other union. Now whither you think that is a good thing or not is accademic......Woodley will most certainly see it as a bad thing. Wake up!

Oh...that and 14,000 yes votes and a change in the BASSA constitution who gives a rats ar*e!

[I-said_no]

Most crew would be happy to work one down as long as we get the agreed payment. 4 hrs etp at the higher rate per sector. Lets put the shoe on the other foot, would you guys be willing to do forced draft for no extra payment?

Yes as a captain you are incharge, but it does not give you the power to break agreed industrial agreements. For those that belive they can offload crew that are sticking to their agreements be very careful. What would you do if a grievance procedure was taken out against you, as the crew member was not doing anything against what has been agreed by BA and their respected union. I ask the above as I have experienced it myself.

This is not a one off. At LGW incharge crew members are beeing asked to put J entilement staff pax in club without the extra crew member.

[Skylion]

The real world if you want to survive is about attitude and flexibility,-not the old mentally cramped one of slavish inward looking adherance to union agreements and to hell with the customer. It's also about your real quality of life. The satisfaction and fun in a service business-(and they don't need to be brain surgeons, petroleum engineers etc to do the job-just good normal caring and lively people) comes through going the extra mile, making it all work , especially when things are going wrong and walking away at the end of the day knowing you've made a difference. The prospect of walking away at the end of your career and being able to say "I won, I did as little as possible" is dismal. If BA people do not want to put the customer first then plenty of others do,- and the customers don't want to get on the aircraft wondering what sort of day it's going to be.Many avoid the airline for this very reason and it's a tragedy.

[old school]

quote 'deeceethree'

''And what you forget, NO JACKETS REQUIRED, is that other departments, including the pilots, have been changing their Ts & Cs and pay for several years - unlike the cabin crew. BASSA have harumphed, foot-stomped, hissy-fitted and more for years, and now the change that should have been made long ago, in small increments, is going to be made in one fell swoop.''

Were changes not made in 1997 - long before the so called Pilots' T & C's? Please keep up. There has been a gradual errosion of pay over the last ten years, changing trip structures etc meaning many now earn £3-9k less per annum. Is that not change? Is that not the 'small increments' you were mentioning?

[The Blu Riband]

Hi Potopilot
honest question.........
why are you doing this job when you clearly dislike it, and seem to have no interest in serving your customers.
You also have a problem with pilots, and maybe authority in general.
If you are so well qualified why don't you find a more satisfying position.
BA have probably marked your card by now so promotion is unlikely ( unlikely anyway soon ).

For info, pilots are not issued with crew industrial agreements; although we are usually aware of most of them.
I always check with the csd, and if some one asks, would always allow a phone call to be made.

Pilots are not interested in breaking agreements, but in maintaining a safe and punctual operation. We adhere to JPMs , which only specify minimum crew numbers.

However, if a crew member behaved in an aggressive manner, or threatened the chain of command, or the Capt's authority, then he would leave the Capt little choice but to consider suspending that individual.

[Human Factor]

For those that belive they can offload crew that are sticking to their agreements be very careful.

You are correct in your assertion that we cannot offload crew for sticking to their agreements. However what we can (and do occasionally) do is have an aircraft re-crewed with fresh crew who are within their agreements to operate. ie. replace the lot with standbys. Yes, there's a cost involved but it's usually cheaper than cancelling a service.

[Nutjob]

Potopilot (or PiB )

Me personally.....I have a degree in petroleum engineering....would walk into a job tomorrow( sounds like bragging....but you did ask)

I'm very sorry to burst your bubble, but here's the truth of what you'd face. Many others with a similar degree but with many years of experience and/or "recent experience" in that industry. If it wasn't in the petroleum industry, then I think you'd also be up against those made recently redundant who would work for far less than they used to, just to have a job. If all the candidates were equally impressive, those people would get the higher ranking jobs before you because of their (recent) experience. I doubt it would be the walk in the park you envisage.

Now, I don't disagree that you'd get a job of some kind but imho it'd be on the first rung of the ladder. You'd have to work your way up again.

I'm sure you'll disagree but we're used to being reminded of how far removed from reality you are.

[Dawdler]

Potopilot said, Quote:

You guys make me laugh....you really do. Your on here yacking about the "whats the big deal" for cabin crew to work one down.You dont get your cappuccinos on board you go into a flight long huff.

You clearly didn't read the post. I wrote:

I am sure that if you asked the pax if they wanted to delay the flight or do without (say) coffee, you would get a pretty definitive answer!

I was not advocating Always running one crew down, merely that should that potentially occur, the crew consider the actual purpose of the flight. i.e. getting the pax from A to B.

Your dispute with the company fundamentally affects those for whom the crew would clearly appear to be having less and less regard.

D.

[potopilot]

Hi The Blue Ribband ......Serious answer

I love my job and would be interested for you to quote me from a previous post that states otherwise.......you're statement is either spin or you can't read posts accurately.

I always respect the authority of the Captain and the FO but only until he/she over steps the mark and tries to influence a situation that has nothing to do with them. You are ill informed if you think that while on stand with the door still open the captain can instruct crew members to break their agreement....it just aint gonna fly. CC agreements have nothing to do pilots. Flight deck have no say in the matter. If this becomes a problem and crew become regularily intimidated by flight deck, BASSA will look into the possibility of refusing crew to go the the aircraft until the full compliment is at the report centre. Flight deck are meddling in things that not in their sphere of responsibility.

[potopilot]

No need to apologise Nutjob....no bubble to burst

[JayPee28bpr]

Does this sound familiar?

I thought this story from the BBC might be of interest in the context of BA's ongoing attempts to improve operational efficiency:

BBC NEWS | Business | SAS to cut more than 1,000 jobs

It's about a further round of cost cuts at SAS. I know SAS is a bit of a basket case generally, but it's interesting how similar the review there appears to be to that currently underway at BA. The only difference is one of scale.

SAS is looking for further job cuts (it announced an initial cull back in February), as well as a 10-20% cut in flight crew and cabin crew pay and benefits. Note the reasoning behind these further cuts:

"...it is essential that we now completely close SAS's cost gap with our competitors"

[potopilot]

Dawdler

There is a more than adequate disruption agreement available to the Company. However it will only be sanctioned when the Company is not trying to ruin our lives....funnily enough.

Nobody enjoys delaying aircraft, afterall its us that have to recover the situation during the flight. We do not refuse to work one down because we are lazy. Only those a little dense would think that. It's a point of principle. When pilots were threatening to strike over the Open Skies debacle there was no mention of concern for our customers. They did not call off the strike because they couldn't sleep at night.

I cant imagine that flight deck are so stupid that they believe all the anti cabin crew rubbish thats sometimes written on here...I can only assume it's spin designed to undermine the CC comunity in a desperate attempt to save their own agenda.....Guys.....forget it....storm's coming

[I-said_no]

Human factor it's a problem for BA at the best of times getting a qrs out, as there are only a handful of crew that get qrs rostered. Most crew are on 2hr standby. Can you imagine trying to get a whole crew.

Did a YVR about 8 months ago BA would not authorize the 1 down payment so waited over 2hrs for standby and a further 2hrs for a slot.
It could be argued did BA have the best interest of their customers that day. It works both ways. Its a sad state of affairs that crew do not have any respect for their leaders.

[The Blu Riband]

Are there any crew prepared to leave Lhr one down?

Do all BA crew really want to potentially cost the company 1000s of pounds, and upset our fare paying customers - and forfeit a nice payment as compensation for possibly working a bit harder, but possibly not if the a/c is not full - just because one of their colleagues went sick ( or got delayed) at the last minute.

Pilots don't want to infringe agreements, but are these agreements totally sacrosanct; is there never to be any discretion.

What if all the crew wanted to leave 1 down, get the payment, not lose a lucrative trip.

[flying_chick]

Leaders? Don't you mean employers? Or am i missing something?

[dave747436]

Protopilot,

I hold views which are unpopular with some, but if I am required to defend them I try to do so politely, respectfully and with a genuine attempt to see the other sides point of view.

For instance.... as a captain I value the CSD, and recognise that their people skills will often be far more sharply honed than my own. I frequently consult crew on issues where their experience or skills are more relevant than mine.

I personally would far rather the CSD did not become a working position, I think it may reduce their effectiveness at their primary task, PR.

I only share this with you in an attempt to show that I am not in the least anti-crew, quite the opposite in fact.

But I read your posts and shudder.

It may or may not be your intention, but your posts come accross as extremely aggressive.

You threaten ("BASSA will look into the possibility of refusing crew to go the the aircraft until the full compliment is at the report centre")

You gloat (""We'll show them" I heard ...that is until Willie showed them")

You are insulting ("You keep pulling your stick and flicking your switches")

And ignorant ("You guys merely drive the bus and have no contribution to the customer experience")

In short, you have a perfectly valid argument........
It is not my job as captain to undermine your agreements.

If BA didn't want any particular agreement, they shoudn't have agreed to it in the first place.

But in your attempts to get the message across you alienate 99% of your audience, many of whom would have agreed with you before you started typing.

I set down these thoughts only in an attempt to persuade you that your posts are counter-productive, and only make more likely that which you seek to avoid.

Your point is valid - moderate your style and other people may agree with you.

But as things stand you are doing your fellow crew a great disservice.