British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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No Wobble.
There is no way via cuts in my T&C's am I going to make up the money BA has squandered in alleged illegal behaviour fixing ticket prices with VIRGIN.
Just look at the ridiculous situation at OS right now. Gg is happy to be demoted and take pay cut to see her money wasted on a joke operation like OS and the new LCY/JFK operation.
There is no way via cuts in my T&C's am I going to make up the money BA has squandered in alleged illegal behaviour fixing ticket prices with VIRGIN.
Just look at the ridiculous situation at OS right now. Gg is happy to be demoted and take pay cut to see her money wasted on a joke operation like OS and the new LCY/JFK operation.
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RyanAir has had a 42% drop in its fuel prices in the first quarter, that is the only reason it has made a profit.
How much has BA's fuel lbill dropped after it rose by 49% in the last financial year? Nowhere near 42%. That is the only reason we made that £90m loss Carnage.
How much has BA's fuel lbill dropped after it rose by 49% in the last financial year? Nowhere near 42%. That is the only reason we made that £90m loss Carnage.
Ryanair LOST money for the first time in its 'short' history due to fuel hedging. RYR hedges fuel for a very short time and, like most other airlines, it bought into fuel when the $200 barrel was being bandied about.
BA hedges millions of dollars worth of fuel with different consortium's at different prices every year. If you buy a years worth of fuel with one consortium the price per unit barrel goes up. You are speculating that the price of the commodity will be going up thus you are 'hedging'. Hence you spread the demand to hide the speculation. Your new car is filling up with expensive fuel now because speculators think the price will rise in the future hence the £1.05 litre at the pumps.
We will not see the loss or gain of those hedging decisions until the end of the financial year. Generally, given the trend of fuel hedging since privatisation, the company has saved millions on fuel by buying and selling hedged fuel.
SO...
That is the only reason we made that £90m loss Carnage.
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Pib,
You obviously can't read properly
.
LCY/NYC is completely different to OS, surely even you can see that? We've tried to explain to you so many times it's getting tedious now. A major bank is paying for the LCY/NYC operation for the first 2 years.
And to try to explain again (oh why do I bother?), a demotion would be purely for my own benefit. My basic would be reduced by a few hundred £s, but my allowances would increase significantly. Is that clear enough for you?
Gg
You obviously can't read properly
.LCY/NYC is completely different to OS, surely even you can see that? We've tried to explain to you so many times it's getting tedious now. A major bank is paying for the LCY/NYC operation for the first 2 years.
And to try to explain again (oh why do I bother?), a demotion would be purely for my own benefit. My basic would be reduced by a few hundred £s, but my allowances would increase significantly. Is that clear enough for you?
Gg
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PiB,
You are obviously happy to see everyone else take the pay cuts but don't see any reason to take any yourself?
We, as in the other departments in the company, are to keep you in the manner to which you have become accustomed as you see all this financial mumbo jumbo as some made up smoke and mirrors from WW?
Seems a little self centred? Especially as many of your peers see it so differently. But, once again you can't see that can you?
As to the LCY-NYC, that has been requested by customers with guarantees of seat purchases by customers and hence is going ahead.
Companies that innovate in recessions generally survive, companies that stagnate in recessions and fail to modernise, die out.
Which would you rather have?
Nope, not from your personal pitiful income, just the same as not from my personal pitiful income, but the profits made by the company during that time coupled with the adjustments to 14,000 CC, 3200 Flight Crew, 20,000 support staff and 2,000 management staff T's & C's to make them more productive could more than cover the shortfall we have now.
You are obviously happy to see everyone else take the pay cuts but don't see any reason to take any yourself?
We, as in the other departments in the company, are to keep you in the manner to which you have become accustomed as you see all this financial mumbo jumbo as some made up smoke and mirrors from WW?
Seems a little self centred? Especially as many of your peers see it so differently. But, once again you can't see that can you?
As to the LCY-NYC, that has been requested by customers with guarantees of seat purchases by customers and hence is going ahead.
Companies that innovate in recessions generally survive, companies that stagnate in recessions and fail to modernise, die out.
Which would you rather have?
There is no way via cuts in my T&C's am I going to make up the money BA has squandered in alleged illegal behaviour fixing ticket prices with VIRGIN.
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I would suggest that saving £150M over two years from the cabin crew will see the £300M lost for price fixing recovered in just four years. Simples.
Why should they? They'll choose the time of the conflict, not BASSA. With every passing day more and more awkward questions are being asked of the union and more and more crew are being influenced by BAs proposals. They can afford to undermine BASSA for a bit then make their play. From Sept 1st BA can begin to issue compulsory redundancy notices to cabin crew. That'll focuse a few minds.
Nothing unfair, nothing unworkable. Better terms than other airlines and better pay too.
You'd better hope everybody else returns those contracts unsigned as well. What they say in public and what they do in private are very different things. If they don't sign then they are effectively resigning. No benefits. BA will seek an SOSR defence from the High Court blocking a strike. How many will really play chicken with their jobs in the middle of a recession?
Originally Posted by bealine
If, as you say, Carnage, the deadline has passed by, then why has BA not shown its hand?
You know as well as everybody else here that the BA proposals are unfair and quite unworkable.
So, BA issue new contracts to all the Cabin Crew, all the Baggage Handlers and all the Ground Staff. What then happens when all these contracts are retuned to Watersplash in mail sacks - shredded and ready for the recyclers?
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It is natural that the shareholders should take the pain during a temporary downturn via a Rights Issue. They will profit from that as the share price rises.
Shareholders have gone from 233 to 171 in five years, taken a 5p div on May 28th 2008, and watched cash flow out in every year except 2007's £315m inflow, with the last major div in 2001.
Shareholders have taken pain for the past 10 years. Where are you on this metric? The company is making almost nothing for shareholders at the bottom line!
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So £281m + new debt to make positive cash in 2010, on flat revenues (thought they are declining...) - do you really think that just the slightly rising yields in 2 years are going to make life sweet and peachy when you look at the bottom-line figures on my extract from the accounts?
Thought not.
Load factors are NOT yields / profits.
For the sake of consistency, here follow Lufthance, AF-KLM and Iberia:
Thought not.
Load factors are NOT yields / profits.
For the sake of consistency, here follow Lufthance, AF-KLM and Iberia:
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Reheat - I can't be bothered, but maybe, if you can, then explain to PiB the effects of dilution on shareholders' positions caused by a rights issue, and how that limits the profits from "a rising share price".
Maybe someone could also be bothered to explain to him how the pension fund relinquishing a guarantee of a small contribution applicable under certain possible future circumstances, the amount of which has become irrelevant to the size of the problem, is not "poaching" and is not removing any money from the fund.
I suspect he knows this, wrt the pension fund, but is putting things this way to cause anxiety among other readers.
Maybe someone could also be bothered to explain to him how the pension fund relinquishing a guarantee of a small contribution applicable under certain possible future circumstances, the amount of which has become irrelevant to the size of the problem, is not "poaching" and is not removing any money from the fund.
I suspect he knows this, wrt the pension fund, but is putting things this way to cause anxiety among other readers.
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PiB your eloquence fails to disguise the fact you routinely do no more than argue from a position of unverified rhetoric. You've no proof that fuel hedging is the sole cause of our loss, nor that the price fixing fines were more than the money we (illegitimately, granted) made from the fixing itself. Just as so many of your self-congratulatory colleagues on CF do, you assume the position that suits you best and then, by what I can only assume is a process of internal self-justification, decide that it is the truth merely because you wish it to be so.
The glaring deficiency in your, and many others', argument on here is the unwillingness to back your assertions with figures and facts. Until you do so, I fear all we'll have from you is some inchoate ranting. But if you think you can take delight in the 90 day notice of 100 pilot CR's without making a leap to see where that might lead BA with you and your colleagues is to display a mastery of doublethink that O'Brien would truly admire.
Still, don't let the facts get in the way of your chest-beating will you?
The glaring deficiency in your, and many others', argument on here is the unwillingness to back your assertions with figures and facts. Until you do so, I fear all we'll have from you is some inchoate ranting. But if you think you can take delight in the 90 day notice of 100 pilot CR's without making a leap to see where that might lead BA with you and your colleagues is to display a mastery of doublethink that O'Brien would truly admire.
Still, don't let the facts get in the way of your chest-beating will you?
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A disturbing quote from a poster on flyertalk, in response to an argumnent on there regarding whether BA Club World is best or not:
...the whole BA experience is far too inconsistent...I've had too many dreadful cabin crew on BA to think it's anything other than a problem that nobody at BA is willing to tackle head-on. They'd rather faff about with stupid 'enhancements' that do nothing except irritate the punter.
Similarly the 'food' served on BA can, at best, be described as edible - and that's if you're lucky. I really don't want to hear about the difficulties of catering at 40k feet - if other airlines can produce consistently good food at this altitude then BA can do it as well.
The 'death by a thousand cuts' analogy that's used elsewhere also applies to BA. Too many of the little niceties are being cut from the on-board experience now to make it feel anything even close to Premium.
Pay your business class fare and then queue up to get on the plane with all and sundry, have the 'Club Kitchen' emptied out by WT+ travellers, don't expect nice food, have the 'BA lottery' experience with the wine list, deal with grumpy crew who'd rather read the Daily Hate Mail than interact with a passenger, get to your destination and then have to wait to get off the plane because the denizens of WT+ get off first and beat you to airport immigration. Does that REALLY sound like the 'best long haul business class airline to you ?
By all means trumpet that BA is the best airline in business if all you want is a flat bed - but the moment you want anything else from your flight, the claim that BA is best is, I'm afraid, just rubbish.
Similarly the 'food' served on BA can, at best, be described as edible - and that's if you're lucky. I really don't want to hear about the difficulties of catering at 40k feet - if other airlines can produce consistently good food at this altitude then BA can do it as well.
The 'death by a thousand cuts' analogy that's used elsewhere also applies to BA. Too many of the little niceties are being cut from the on-board experience now to make it feel anything even close to Premium.
Pay your business class fare and then queue up to get on the plane with all and sundry, have the 'Club Kitchen' emptied out by WT+ travellers, don't expect nice food, have the 'BA lottery' experience with the wine list, deal with grumpy crew who'd rather read the Daily Hate Mail than interact with a passenger, get to your destination and then have to wait to get off the plane because the denizens of WT+ get off first and beat you to airport immigration. Does that REALLY sound like the 'best long haul business class airline to you ?
By all means trumpet that BA is the best airline in business if all you want is a flat bed - but the moment you want anything else from your flight, the claim that BA is best is, I'm afraid, just rubbish.
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No doubt the above quote was written by one of you or a pilot. 
I have flown as a passengers on BA many times and always get excellent service, yes once or twice it was 'just good'.
It is our excellent service that keeps them coming back. Yes, the pilots,who are clearly worth every penny and more, ground staff, dispatchers, baggage, call centre etc etc everyone play HUGE part but it us they remember they most, we make a good impression when they get off the aircraft.
I have flown as a passengers on BA many times and always get excellent service, yes once or twice it was 'just good'.
It is our excellent service that keeps them coming back. Yes, the pilots,who are clearly worth every penny and more, ground staff, dispatchers, baggage, call centre etc etc everyone play HUGE part but it us they remember they most, we make a good impression when they get off the aircraft.
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flyingchick, do you suppose all criticism of BA to be imagined (written by a pilot - haha!)? Are we so perfect that we are beyond criticism?
As for the rest of your point about excellent service, I am reminded of the time the journalist Jane Moore wrote about a BA flight. She was in First, and was quite excited to see a huge fuss being made over a female passenger. Thinking it was a celebrity she somehow didn't recognise, she made discreet enquiries to discover that the person getting the star treatment was a member of CC on staff travel.
I make this point to emphasise that we cannot afford to be complacent about anything in the current economic climate.
As for the rest of your point about excellent service, I am reminded of the time the journalist Jane Moore wrote about a BA flight. She was in First, and was quite excited to see a huge fuss being made over a female passenger. Thinking it was a celebrity she somehow didn't recognise, she made discreet enquiries to discover that the person getting the star treatment was a member of CC on staff travel.
I make this point to emphasise that we cannot afford to be complacent about anything in the current economic climate.
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Interesting to see the denials about the fact that BA's on board sevice is highly variable and while sometimes superb at others it is pretty awful-and has been for years. Some crew seem to believe what they are maybe told in training school: "We are the greatest" Some are ,but too many show little interest in the passenger, little warmth or humanity. It has become almost culture to these folk and they make life difficult for those who want to work hard at being. excellent.BA need to research why this is. Their cabin crew have one of the best packages in the industry and yet appear to be perennialy miserable. There is a large amount of blind loyalty to the union and what it says and little to the company which pays them,- and whose management, far from being evil, is generally relatively benign even if weak and unwilling to risk confrontation over poor performance. BA also suffers from huge political correctness. The allowance based culture has produced an inward looking and restrictive approach to the job. "How little can I do?" "When do I get my rest?" and "How much do we get for that" are too often the dominating questions. The on-board workload is generally less than on the competitors, especially the low costs whose staff work flat out on short sectors to deliver the catering, take the money and then sell the duty free,- something BA crew seldom make a serious effort at.(maybe they need training on selling techniques). BA has an excellent hard product but the often very obvious negative cabin crew attitides give it ,-and those who joined because they really wanted to make a difference ,-an enormous probem.
BASSA lives on strife and negativity-which actually undermines the enjoyment of the job for many. It is time they genuinely helped to design a new and happier future for everyone and accepted that the costs and attitudes which go with restrictive practices have got to come out,-permanently.
BASSA lives on strife and negativity-which actually undermines the enjoyment of the job for many. It is time they genuinely helped to design a new and happier future for everyone and accepted that the costs and attitudes which go with restrictive practices have got to come out,-permanently.
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No doubt the above quote was written by one of you or a pilot.
I have flown as a passengers on BA many times and always get excellent service, yes once or twice it was 'just good'.
It is our excellent service that keeps them coming back. Yes, the pilots,who are clearly worth every penny and more, ground staff, dispatchers, baggage, call centre etc etc everyone play HUGE part but it us they remember they most, we make a good impression when they get off the aircraft.
I have flown as a passengers on BA many times and always get excellent service, yes once or twice it was 'just good'.
It is our excellent service that keeps them coming back. Yes, the pilots,who are clearly worth every penny and more, ground staff, dispatchers, baggage, call centre etc etc everyone play HUGE part but it us they remember they most, we make a good impression when they get off the aircraft.
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I'm cringeing (sp?) now. For FlyingChick to claim we're always the best is exaggerated, unfortunately. I've travelled on various flights in various cabins and the service can be either amazingly fantastic or absolutely awful. There seems to be nothing in between. This is not about me critisising fellow crew, I'm just telling it like it is.
Now, if everyone in the company (whichever department they work in) gave 100% every time, we would be the best. Unfortunately there are people in the company who are "trapped" in the job and hate it and therefore don't provide good service, never mind great service.
Being crew is a vocation as such, you do it because you love it, not to earn vast amounts of money. After all these years I still love my job and long may it continue. I will provide 100% each and every time I come to work, because as far as I'm concerned, the passengers want to go from A to B with a smile and respect. I know it can be difficult when you have a passenger who's a PITA, "but fake it to make it" or "kill them with kindness". I'm not advocating rolling over in regards to abusive passengers though, they're in a different category altogether, but we rarely have abusive passengers considering how many flights we have per day.
All I can wish for is for crew to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they want to do this job. Provide the best service you possibly can. If you imagine the passengers are your good friends and family, it might be easier, as then you'll relate to how you want them to be treated.
Gg
Ps. Sorry for thread drift, had to get it out of my system...
Now, if everyone in the company (whichever department they work in) gave 100% every time, we would be the best. Unfortunately there are people in the company who are "trapped" in the job and hate it and therefore don't provide good service, never mind great service.
Being crew is a vocation as such, you do it because you love it, not to earn vast amounts of money. After all these years I still love my job and long may it continue. I will provide 100% each and every time I come to work, because as far as I'm concerned, the passengers want to go from A to B with a smile and respect. I know it can be difficult when you have a passenger who's a PITA, "but fake it to make it" or "kill them with kindness". I'm not advocating rolling over in regards to abusive passengers though, they're in a different category altogether, but we rarely have abusive passengers considering how many flights we have per day.
All I can wish for is for crew to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they want to do this job. Provide the best service you possibly can. If you imagine the passengers are your good friends and family, it might be easier, as then you'll relate to how you want them to be treated.
Gg
Ps. Sorry for thread drift, had to get it out of my system...
Training??
Flyertalk and other places where airline customers chat make it very clear that BA's standards are variable.
This used to be an issue back in the 1980s, so thousands of PPF and PPF2 type courses were run. Whilst they did not solve every problem, they did improve things. (I was a gold card holder with BA and SQ at the time).
Are BA giving CC the sort of training that they need?
This used to be an issue back in the 1980s, so thousands of PPF and PPF2 type courses were run. Whilst they did not solve every problem, they did improve things. (I was a gold card holder with BA and SQ at the time).
Are BA giving CC the sort of training that they need?
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AO - obviously there is the initial training but I believe (though haven't experienced it) BA has added a third day to the CC SEP recurrent course which is run by the Customer Service Trainers. There is also the ongoing roll out of the premium crew training at the moment.
In addition there is the opportunity to access many computer based courses for things like dealing with Passengers with disabilities to service recovery (though the CBT is not compulsory.)
I think the training provision is probably as adequate as it can be for such a large community of crew though that is not to say that improvements aren't a possibility.
Edited to add: Whilst I don't doubt that the experiences some people had onboard can be below par I think it worth noting that the VAST majority of BA crew do a sterling job.
In addition there is the opportunity to access many computer based courses for things like dealing with Passengers with disabilities to service recovery (though the CBT is not compulsory.)
I think the training provision is probably as adequate as it can be for such a large community of crew though that is not to say that improvements aren't a possibility.
Edited to add: Whilst I don't doubt that the experiences some people had onboard can be below par I think it worth noting that the VAST majority of BA crew do a sterling job.
Last edited by Matt101; 8th Aug 2009 at 17:17.
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SEP is three days but the main reason as to why they have added the third day, which is actually the first day of three day SEP, is because of the mandatory learning (CBT) which had many no show's when it was a separate day.
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BA moan about payments to the pension fund, then take another holiday by denying it £300m through their fiscal ineptitude.
You couldn't make it up
Ancient Observer. Regarding CC performance, the effects of low pay contracts are already apparent. We are not getting the calibre of person we used to. There are very few people who love the job so much they would cut their pay or take a demotion. Anyone who says that is obviously completely barking mad.
You couldn't make it up
Ancient Observer. Regarding CC performance, the effects of low pay contracts are already apparent. We are not getting the calibre of person we used to. There are very few people who love the job so much they would cut their pay or take a demotion. Anyone who says that is obviously completely barking mad.