BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: North London at last
Are you serious. As an early thirties potential joiner with 8000 hours and ten years experience and now a LHS at a Loco can you believe I would be less than enamoured to find myself behind a zero hours cadet for a future command should I eventually be deemed worthy. For me, the system works against experienced pilots but then again I suppose it is meant to.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: Monkey island
Are you serious. As an early thirties potential joiner with 8000 hours and ten years experience and now a LHS at a Loco can you believe I would be less than enamoured to find myself behind a zero hours cadet for a future command should I eventually be deemed worthy. For me, the system works against experienced pilots but then again I suppose it is meant to.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: North London at last
Do not recall saying I was special, just a lot more experienced. Why not put cadets in both seats then. Your comment is unnecessarily aggressive. Yes BA is seniority driven but I did apply. There are many other attractions to BA over where I am. But I have decided to stay and I just said why so I do not need your nasty views when you have no idea what drives me. And I think the salary difference between a captain and a cadet sort of implies others think so to.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 114
From: UK
Don't worry mate, his aggressiveness comes from someone who was probably a FPP cadet and actually thinks he's special.
As a capt - I know I'd rather have someone with 8000 hours next to me compared to a 200 hour cadet. Simple put, yes an 8000 hour pilot is worth much more than a 200 hour cadet. The latter often increase my workload rather than alleviate it.
As a capt - I know I'd rather have someone with 8000 hours next to me compared to a 200 hour cadet. Simple put, yes an 8000 hour pilot is worth much more than a 200 hour cadet. The latter often increase my workload rather than alleviate it.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
Hopefully the reality of how the seniority system works at BA cannot be a surprise to any one sitting in the hold pool who performed due diligence.
I know it's been said before but here it is again: like it or not pretty much everything in BA is governed by date of joining....you must assume the pilot who joined a day/week/month ahead of you will get first shot at a command course unless there's a very rare combination of circumstance. In the 90s and later the likes of the Prestwick Cadets got commands ahead of DEPs who had joined from the forces/other airlines, and unless the rules change you can expect the FPPs and the possible "white tales" to get a shot at command ahead of any high hours LHSeaters joining from FR, Emirates or wherever.
I know it's been said before but here it is again: like it or not pretty much everything in BA is governed by date of joining....you must assume the pilot who joined a day/week/month ahead of you will get first shot at a command course unless there's a very rare combination of circumstance. In the 90s and later the likes of the Prestwick Cadets got commands ahead of DEPs who had joined from the forces/other airlines, and unless the rules change you can expect the FPPs and the possible "white tales" to get a shot at command ahead of any high hours LHSeaters joining from FR, Emirates or wherever.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 114
From: UK
Not sure anyone sounded surprised. Disappointed perhaps.
Someone definitely sounded a bit arrogant. While everyone starts at the bottom in BA, to suggest a person with 8000 hours at the bottom is bringing the same to the table as a 200 hour cadet is simply wrong.
Someone definitely sounded a bit arrogant. While everyone starts at the bottom in BA, to suggest a person with 8000 hours at the bottom is bringing the same to the table as a 200 hour cadet is simply wrong.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: North London at last
True wiggy and yes I was well aware when I applied. But when I applied I was RHS at a LoCo. There were a number who joined BA in the previous intake and achieved LHS there within two years as long as they had the relevant experience. This made it attractive to apply. In the intervening period I have moved to LHS and the significant increase in salary is very important when you have young children. The seniority list at BA has become static and the road to command now looks a lot longer so to experienced applicants the proposition appears less attractive. Do not get me wrong. I would have loved to have flown for BA but the length of time to command means for someone like me in my circumstances, it is no longer the right choice.
The debate as to wether time in company is the most applicable of possible criteria to award promotion has been done several times before on here. But it is BA's way and we do all know that.
The debate as to wether time in company is the most applicable of possible criteria to award promotion has been done several times before on here. But it is BA's way and we do all know that.
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: England
What's wrong with that? The early FPP's will be unfrozen this year and will have the hours required. Is it any different to 5 year commands at another company?
I feel for those in the DEP hold pool, but cadet-bashing helps nobody, and must be particularly galling to those that gave up other careers for the FPP and are now sat in jobless limbo as well, wondering if BA will ever give them a start date!
I feel for those in the DEP hold pool, but cadet-bashing helps nobody, and must be particularly galling to those that gave up other careers for the FPP and are now sat in jobless limbo as well, wondering if BA will ever give them a start date!
I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!
Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).
Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.
Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: Monkey island
I wish I was a FPP, my point was. In the eyes of the company you have the same rights as a cadet who joined the same day. I don't feel special at all, bottom of the seniority list on my fleet and I'm fine with that.
When I joined BA I was a TRI in my old company shortly to start my command course there. When you join BA you start at the bottom. There is no point in winging about it. BA is not for everyone, if command is what you want stay where you are now.
When I joined BA I was a TRI in my old company shortly to start my command course there. When you join BA you start at the bottom. There is no point in winging about it. BA is not for everyone, if command is what you want stay where you are now.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: London
The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody. For example there is no such thing as DEC because it's cheaper for the company then to upgrade a FO (something my previous employer loved to do even though they kept telling the troops they rather upgrade from within). Also partly because of the seniority system it doesn't matter that people who joined after a person get offered a direct LH position. As soon as the more senior person gets LH they will have more roster satisfaction.
I appreciate everybody is different but also if you think a quick command in BA is going to give you a massive pay rise you are in for a surprise. A FO with high fleet seniority and therefor high credit efficient triplines is probably only around 500 pounds worse off then a junior skipper on blindlines with lots of TASS.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
From: Under the table
Stocious,
I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!
Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).
Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.
Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!
I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!
Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).
Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.
Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!
The early FPPs started in late 2013 and despite being pretty work-shy and a number of intakes behind them, I'm only a couple of hundred hours short of the OM A requirements at present, let alone by the time I'd start a course. Not that I'm bidding for one. I can imagine some of the keener ones have the hours required.
Either way, I suspect the point is moot this year.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 34
Likes: 2
From: UK
All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...
What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:
- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet
Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer
How come they are only taking 65 now?
What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:
- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet
Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer
How come they are only taking 65 now?
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: England
I don't want to give false hope but having mulled over this, I think there was good reason for an overly pessimistic outlook.
After all you are now going to be swimming for another year, whereas before there was no prospect of a job.
All speculation on my part but hopefully all swimmers will get what they fully deserve eventually.
After all you are now going to be swimming for another year, whereas before there was no prospect of a job.
All speculation on my part but hopefully all swimmers will get what they fully deserve eventually.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: England
The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
From: UK
An awful lot of Captains I fly with on the 744 are going to retire in the not too distant future. You only have to look in iBid and search the RETs to see the numbers which are steadily leaving. Many choose only to give the bare minimum notice. I'd be very surprised if there is no recruitment in the short term. This is just my observation. I've given up on Yammer!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 739
Likes: 6
From: York
Saab
What you seem to be 'missing' is something already contained in your list. The "different rostering system" is JSS. This will ensure that all pilots meet their CAP commitment every month. Currently many Blind Line Holders only manage that with the use of (often useless!) Time Assignable.
Ergo, fewer pilots required by BA to cover the same amount of work!
Because we don't want to digress, we won't bother explaining where the trips, currently unavailable to junior BLHs will come from!
All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...
What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:
- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet
Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer
How come they are only taking 65 now?
What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:
- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet
Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer
How come they are only taking 65 now?
Ergo, fewer pilots required by BA to cover the same amount of work!
Because we don't want to digress, we won't bother explaining where the trips, currently unavailable to junior BLHs will come from!
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
4468, you're probably right in as much as potentially fewer pilots to cover the work. But that, in my opinion, still won't mitigate all the other factors. There's going to be more than just the 65, but I suspect they're going to be white tail cadets, then DEP will cover any unforeseen holes after the flying programme/bid results are known (if any).
