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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 24th Jul 2017, 16:11
  #3841 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: London
Posts: 19
A lot of the guys in the hold pool are the same age as the cadets. Who knows I guess. Very disappointed to say the least to be waiting this long with little or no information.
Ea300 is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2017, 16:22
  #3842 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 818
If I were being cynical I would say that over the first 8 years in the company they are paid a significant amount less than DEPs and are simply much cheaper.
Jwscud is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2017, 16:34
  #3843 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
They are cheap! Cadets will work for a third of money and pay for all their own training an ideal combo for AC. Race to the bottom accelerates all the time.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2017, 19:12
  #3844 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Why are they putting cadets in front of 200 experienced, tried and tested proven pilots. whom most would bend over backwards to work for BA. Especially those of us coming from low cost airlines ?
A few less on the spreadsheet.

That's it. That's all BA care about.
BitMoreRightRudder is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2017, 21:29
  #3845 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
Unfortunately it's not a huge surprise. The FPP if it runs again is going to look very different. All I heard is BA is no longer prepared to carry the debt on their books. What does that mean? You will have to secure the funding yourself........! The whole point was to find great guys and girls regardless of their ability to secure a loan. Looks like that's gone and it's a great shame. The bods in flight ops have their view but accountants rule it seems. As far as DEP being overlooked for cadets from flight schools first I have heard of it but you have got to expect BA to be looking at other airlines SH FO costs with green eyes. Any accountant will be asking why we are paying newly recruited FO's on the airbus so much more than other airlines. LH granted very different as you require experience but the FPP has proven that BA can operate its SH network with less experience in the RHS. With that we have got to expect an appetite to reduce cost by aiming to recruit cadets. Very often though what is said and what people hear are very different. It would surly take a large policy change and BALPA's agreement to recruit cadets from flight school directly ahead of those in the pool.

BA has to compete with the loco's and it's serious about doing so. With increasing momentum we are becoming one but BA is always going to cater for the smaller premium businesss on SH too. First it was productivity from pilots, then came the FPP, then changes to allowances and flight pay, after that it was the vote for bidline 2. That was the wrong option so we had to vote again until we got it right with JSS coming next year. The product has changed with BOB, outstation staff have been replaced with handling agents etc etc. It not desirable but I do believe it is necessary. Don't believe everything you hear as often it's doom only for it to turn out to be a bit of a pain in the arse.
bex88 is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2017, 21:54
  #3846 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Just a question Bex though, why exactly is it necessary when we are making 1.5 Billion in profit, way more than easyJet and Norwegian (whose CFO has incidentally just walked out without notice because they can't afford to finance the new aircraft)? Whether or not Short Haul is as profitable in its own right as easyJet or Ryanair is absolutely irrelevant because BA is not (for now) separated into Long Haul and Short Haul, the financial results are posted as the single entity that the company is. As a single entity the profits are exceeding a Billion for three years on the spin now and Short Haul feeds the Long Haul. What does it ultimately matter what the cost base for Short Haul is in comparison to other airlines when we are vastly out performing them in financial results? Maybe I'm missing something - I have been accused of being slow in the past - but I really do need this explained. This is not a company in poverty. Granted that doesn't mean we should accept inefficiencies and gross wastes but you cannot provide a premium product by outsourcing everything. That's just basic stuff. It sickens me how this brand is being cheapened by some two bob low cost CEO.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 24th Jul 2017, 22:11
  #3847 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
You make some good points Rex. The return on investment is less and investors want a greater return. The message is fairly clear. Those who are prepared to pay want a better product, everyone else wants it cheap and shareholders want greater returns. Profits are up yes but what about the revenue? I am just a simple guy really so it's probably me missing something.
bex88 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 07:27
  #3848 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: England
Posts: 53
There seems to be the assumption made that Holdpoolers (NTR) wouldn't be prepared to self fund a TR or be prepared to accept the lower pay of a CTC cadet? (Which looks to be the way BA are going).

I for one, would do anything (including accepting all of the above) to secure my dream job of working for BA. I used to believe that BA was one of the few airlines remaining that valued some previous life and aviation experience when recruiting FOs but that looks to have died a death.

Anyway to my original point, why not ask the NTR in the pool if they would be willing to self fund or pay back TR costs? Or is it a case of not wanting to declare what BA has become?

Sorry to other swimmers for volunteering lower Ts and Cs but I think the writing is on the wall for me and others. Looks like I will have to go and pay CTC 10k+ to validate my flying experience to date, sad times!
PressTheTit is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 08:25
  #3849 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,913
Lots of very (sadly) valid comment above,

bex, I may be missing the context for this comment, if so apologies, but can you clarify what you meant by:

It would surly take a large policy change and BALPA's agreement to recruit cadets from flight school directly ahead of those in the pool.
(my emphasis)

I may be misinformed from time to time but AFAIK BALPA has no input into BA's recruiting mechanism and I suspect BALPA would have had no say at all at in this decision

Sorry if I'm sounding picky but I'm just trying to stop stories along the lines of "being stitched up by BALPA/senior pilots" starting to circulate - we've had enough of those already .
wiggy is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 08:31
  #3850 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: FL370
Age: 34
Posts: 235
The company haven't said they won't be plucking people out of the pool, just that there won't be any non-type rated DEP recruitment in 2018. The impression that I get is that the Whitetail cadets will replace any future FPP recruitment, at least in the short to medium term. If the FPP does make a comeback, it will probably be under very different conditions to previous intakes.

On Yammer (our internal social media board), the pilot recruitment team have said that next years intake will come from the remaining FPPs, the DEP hold pool and towards the end of the year, Whitetail cadets from CTC.

PressTheTit; don't panic, and for the love of god don't lower yourself to accepting inferior conditions just to fly for BA. It's a good place to work, but that is because of what it offers in terms of the overall pay and benefits package. You would actively be undermining everything that you think BA offers just to be a BA pilot. As for going to CTC for their post training AQC or whatever it's called now; don't. The pilot recruitment team have stated that whitetail cadets will only be selected after finishing ground school and before starting their flight training.

Why only CTC whitetails and not Oxford, Jerez et el? Well that's where my cynicism comes from regarding the position now held by the former head of short haul.
EMB-145LR is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 08:46
  #3851 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 32
I'm more concerned with experience levels. I think it's great that a cross section of the pilot community are given a chance to work for a major airline whatever your background, but weighing to heavily on inexperienced white tales can't be the way forward. We need a good mix of DEP & cadets which keeps experience levels at a safe & sensible level. Clearly this is a financial move, unfortunately IAG are ruthless! Our airline that I'm proud to fly for is really being dragged through the mud at the mo due to AC. I wish he'd naff off to LEVEL... far more his bag!

To the current holdpoolers this is obviously very frustrating news but this is today's plan... all will change & with 20 plus retiring just this month I'm sure the need for DEP's will come back to fruition in the not too distant future!
BASHLH is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 08:50
  #3852 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
Hey Wiggy.

No assault on BALPA intended. If new terms were introduced for DEP cadets I would have thought that any change to employment contracts would have to go through the union. Perhaps that's only the case for existing employees. BALPA looks after a wide demographic and it's never going to be possible to represent the margins. Straight up honesty we all look after ourselves then the group. PP24/PP34 NAPS/BARP etc etc.....you know what fair play that was the deal at the time. My interest is more towards having a strong and stable (Thanks Theresa) company over the argument of self funded type ratings etc. Yes I paid for mine and yes my salary was reduced for experience or lack of at my first employer.
bex88 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 09:04
  #3853 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
EMB-145LR. Post 3902 That's all anyone needs to read. Spot on and almost the same as I witnessed in response to a colleagues questioning.
bex88 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 09:19
  #3854 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: somewhere in the middle
Posts: 257
there won't be any non-type rated DEP recruitment in 2018
Just for clarity, my email says no DEP at all in 2018 - it makes no distinction between Type rated / Non type rated.

I was going to write about my opinions of CTC and how it applies to this situation, but have deleted the draft. The whole thing is just sad. I always thought that outside of its own Cadet scheme, BA valued experience for its crews. Obviously no longer. Race to the bottom intensifies.

Good luck everyone. Not sure where I go from here to be honest. It's not the "no recruitment" that stings, it's (if true) being passed over (once again) in favour of a 350 hour "white tail" hero with deep pockets and a debt to service.
thetimesreader84 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 10:07
  #3855 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Originally Posted by EMB-145LR View Post
The company haven't said they won't be plucking people out of the pool, just that there won't be any non-type rated DEP recruitment in 2018.
I have to concur with the above post on this issue, the copy of the email sent to hold poolers that I have been party to makes no reference to either type rated/non type rated. It simply says that no one in the hold pool will get a start date in 2018. This email postdates any information about the recruitment plan on yammer so the stuff on there is already out of date.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 10:08
  #3856 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 84
Hugely disappointing. I'm well accustomed to the 'cost of everything, value of nothing' mentality at my current airline, but how sad to see the same now being applied at BA.

I've been through BA's highly unpleasant and convoluted recruitment process several times to get this far and now they want yet another interview. And when does this extra year in the pool even extend to? From our initial year, from 18 months...? I was due to expire mid next year - do I now expire mid 2019?

Either way, 2019 is a long way away, and with the prospect of a job offer becoming ever more speculative I imagine many in the pool will have taken other roads long before BA open the doors to DEP again. What a shame.
FACoff is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 10:11
  #3857 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Right of the Middle
Posts: 349
What am I missing? The email directly contradicts things that I and others (namely Wiggy) have heard directly from within the company, and it includes the caveat that everything is...

"subject to change as we have not yet received the network plan for 2018 nor has the pilot annual bid been completed."
So why send an email out that will only disappoint/piss off people when it may well turn out to be inaccurate? Clearly there are greater forces at work behind the scenes...

Count me in the pissed off group. BA was always the goal, and I threw my heart and soul into the recruitment (the application for which went in a year ago today coincidentally) and now the goal posts continue to move. Assuming (brave, given their form!) that I might get an offer sometime early 2019, I'll be within a year of a command course where I am...
FoxChaRomeo is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 10:26
  #3858 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London
Age: 34
Posts: 43
I personally think for all of those in the holdpool (including myself) it might be time to swallow the bitter pill and assume this time round it just wont happen. For the recruitment team to be bold enough to say at this stage they expect no offers to be made to those in the pool in 2018 means just that and they wouldnt send that message out without a strong belief in it based on whats infront of them. Like many (i assume) im gutted but i think being hopefull (especially at this stage) is probably more detrimental than positive.
polepilot is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 10:59
  #3859 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 180
I for one, would do anything (including accepting all of the above) to secure my dream job of working for BA.
Everything that's wrong with this industry neatly encapsulated in one sentence. How terribly sad.
akindofmagic is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2017, 11:14
  #3860 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
Everything that's wrong with this industry neatly encapsulated in one sentence. How terribly sad.
Could not agree more. Offering to pay a TR undermines all of your future colleagues, and is the exact reason that BA and others are now going down a "white tail cadet" route.

Go and watch Tony Kerns 2014 CHC flight safety lecture on YouTube, he explains far more succinctly and eloquently what is happening here than I possibly could.
RHS is offline  

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