Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 26th Jul 2017, 17:25
  #3921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 89
Personally I can't believe the number will be anywhere near that low. If anything I would have said they would want to slightly over crew next year because the JSS implementation is BOUND to throw up issues, BA having such an amazing record at implementing new IT projects.

Not only that but the general morale level at BA is the worst I've seen it since I joined which is likely to result in further requests for early retirement / part time.

This looks like more short termism from our management team.
Northern Monkey is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 18:48
  #3922 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: somewhere in the middle
Posts: 194
I think the inference is that recruitment next year will be FPP first, then "white tail", then any crumbs from that table will be passed to DEP, probably type rated first.
thetimesreader84 is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 19:15
  #3923 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
I'm sorry but you lost me here; Why would the current seniority system be unfair for DEP?
Are you serious. As an early thirties potential joiner with 8000 hours and ten years experience and now a LHS at a Loco can you believe I would be less than enamoured to find myself behind a zero hours cadet for a future command should I eventually be deemed worthy. For me, the system works against experienced pilots but then again I suppose it is meant to.
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 19:16
  #3924 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Threethirty View Post
Not the case at all, you can get a 320 command in next to no time now.
Ho Ho Ho.... and Father Christmas really exists.
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 19:30
  #3925 (permalink)  
nrn
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Monkey island
Age: 31
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop View Post
Are you serious. As an early thirties potential joiner with 8000 hours and ten years experience and now a LHS at a Loco can you believe I would be less than enamoured to find myself behind a zero hours cadet for a future command should I eventually be deemed worthy. For me, the system works against experienced pilots but then again I suppose it is meant to.
Why do you think you are so special? Just because you've got a command you think you are "worth" more than a cadet? You will be doing the same job as that cadet, nothing more, nothing less. BA is a seniority driven airline, don't like it--> don't apply.
nrn is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 19:46
  #3926 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 89
Do not recall saying I was special, just a lot more experienced. Why not put cadets in both seats then. Your comment is unnecessarily aggressive. Yes BA is seniority driven but I did apply. There are many other attractions to BA over where I am. But I have decided to stay and I just said why so I do not need your nasty views when you have no idea what drives me. And I think the salary difference between a captain and a cadet sort of implies others think so to.
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 19:51
  #3927 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 231
So experience has no value? Nice to know.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 19:53
  #3928 (permalink)  
VJW
Sciolist (look it up) of the first order
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 761
Don't worry mate, his aggressiveness comes from someone who was probably a FPP cadet and actually thinks he's special.

As a capt - I know I'd rather have someone with 8000 hours next to me compared to a 200 hour cadet. Simple put, yes an 8000 hour pilot is worth much more than a 200 hour cadet. The latter often increase my workload rather than alleviate it.
VJW is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:02
  #3929 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 89
Maybe. I expect it is his worthless experience that got him a P2 seat on 787.
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:16
  #3930 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,162
Hopefully the reality of how the seniority system works at BA cannot be a surprise to any one sitting in the hold pool who performed due diligence.

I know it's been said before but here it is again: like it or not pretty much everything in BA is governed by date of joining....you must assume the pilot who joined a day/week/month ahead of you will get first shot at a command course unless there's a very rare combination of circumstance. In the 90s and later the likes of the Prestwick Cadets got commands ahead of DEPs who had joined from the forces/other airlines, and unless the rules change you can expect the FPPs and the possible "white tales" to get a shot at command ahead of any high hours LHSeaters joining from FR, Emirates or wherever.
wiggy is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:25
  #3931 (permalink)  
VJW
Sciolist (look it up) of the first order
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 761
Not sure anyone sounded surprised. Disappointed perhaps.

Someone definitely sounded a bit arrogant. While everyone starts at the bottom in BA, to suggest a person with 8000 hours at the bottom is bringing the same to the table as a 200 hour cadet is simply wrong.
VJW is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:28
  #3932 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: North London at last
Posts: 89
True wiggy and yes I was well aware when I applied. But when I applied I was RHS at a LoCo. There were a number who joined BA in the previous intake and achieved LHS there within two years as long as they had the relevant experience. This made it attractive to apply. In the intervening period I have moved to LHS and the significant increase in salary is very important when you have young children. The seniority list at BA has become static and the road to command now looks a lot longer so to experienced applicants the proposition appears less attractive. Do not get me wrong. I would have loved to have flown for BA but the length of time to command means for someone like me in my circumstances, it is no longer the right choice.

The debate as to wether time in company is the most applicable of possible criteria to award promotion has been done several times before on here. But it is BA's way and we do all know that.
FlipFlapFlop is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:30
  #3933 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Stocious View Post
What's wrong with that? The early FPP's will be unfrozen this year and will have the hours required. Is it any different to 5 year commands at another company?

I feel for those in the DEP hold pool, but cadet-bashing helps nobody, and must be particularly galling to those that gave up other careers for the FPP and are now sat in jobless limbo as well, wondering if BA will ever give them a start date!
Stocious,

I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!

Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).

Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.

Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!
BASHLH is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:34
  #3934 (permalink)  
nrn
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Monkey island
Age: 31
Posts: 67
I wish I was a FPP, my point was. In the eyes of the company you have the same rights as a cadet who joined the same day. I don't feel special at all, bottom of the seniority list on my fleet and I'm fine with that.

When I joined BA I was a TRI in my old company shortly to start my command course there. When you join BA you start at the bottom. There is no point in winging about it. BA is not for everyone, if command is what you want stay where you are now.
nrn is online now  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 00:02
  #3935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 101
Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop View Post
The debate as to wether time in company is the most applicable of possible criteria to award promotion has been done several times before on here. But it is BA's way and we do all know that.
FlipFlapFlop I still disagree with you views. Having joined with very similar experience as yourself on the SH fleet I'm a big supporter of the seniority system and strongly disagree with your views; That because you have thousands of hours and been flying for 10 years you are entitled to a higher seniority then the pilot who joined a day or a year before you.

The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody. For example there is no such thing as DEC because it's cheaper for the company then to upgrade a FO (something my previous employer loved to do even though they kept telling the troops they rather upgrade from within). Also partly because of the seniority system it doesn't matter that people who joined after a person get offered a direct LH position. As soon as the more senior person gets LH they will have more roster satisfaction.

I appreciate everybody is different but also if you think a quick command in BA is going to give you a massive pay rise you are in for a surprise. A FO with high fleet seniority and therefor high credit efficient triplines is probably only around 500 pounds worse off then a junior skipper on blindlines with lots of TASS.
Jumbo2 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 01:26
  #3936 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Under the table
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by BASHLH View Post
Stocious,

I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!

Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).

Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.

Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!
I've just re-read the Yammer post in question and can see none of the sense of entitlement you seem to see. It's a polite and reasonable question, with not one use of the word 'when' or any other presumptive language.

The early FPPs started in late 2013 and despite being pretty work-shy and a number of intakes behind them, I'm only a couple of hundred hours short of the OM A requirements at present, let alone by the time I'd start a course. Not that I'm bidding for one. I can imagine some of the keener ones have the hours required.

Either way, I suspect the point is moot this year.
Stocious is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 06:38
  #3937 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 28
All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...

What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:

- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet

Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer

How come they are only taking 65 now?
Saab0409 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 06:47
  #3938 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: England
Posts: 53
I don't want to give false hope but having mulled over this, I think there was good reason for an overly pessimistic outlook.

After all you are now going to be swimming for another year, whereas before there was no prospect of a job.

All speculation on my part but hopefully all swimmers will get what they fully deserve eventually.
PressTheTit is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 09:10
  #3939 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: France
Posts: 175
The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody.
The seniority system also artificially restricts effective free movement between companies, and depresses terms and conditions. It is an anachronistic system, and the fact that it's not used in any other profession speaks volumes.
akindofmagic is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:36
  #3940 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,078
An awful lot of Captains I fly with on the 744 are going to retire in the not too distant future. You only have to look in iBid and search the RETs to see the numbers which are steadily leaving. Many choose only to give the bare minimum notice. I'd be very surprised if there is no recruitment in the short term. This is just my observation. I've given up on Yammer!
no sponsor is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.