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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:30
  #3921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Stocious View Post
What's wrong with that? The early FPP's will be unfrozen this year and will have the hours required. Is it any different to 5 year commands at another company?

I feel for those in the DEP hold pool, but cadet-bashing helps nobody, and must be particularly galling to those that gave up other careers for the FPP and are now sat in jobless limbo as well, wondering if BA will ever give them a start date!
Stocious,

I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!

Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).

Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.

Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!
BASHLH is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2017, 20:34
  #3922 (permalink)  
nrn
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Monkey island
Age: 32
Posts: 67
I wish I was a FPP, my point was. In the eyes of the company you have the same rights as a cadet who joined the same day. I don't feel special at all, bottom of the seniority list on my fleet and I'm fine with that.

When I joined BA I was a TRI in my old company shortly to start my command course there. When you join BA you start at the bottom. There is no point in winging about it. BA is not for everyone, if command is what you want stay where you are now.
nrn is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 00:02
  #3923 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 41
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop View Post
The debate as to wether time in company is the most applicable of possible criteria to award promotion has been done several times before on here. But it is BA's way and we do all know that.
FlipFlapFlop I still disagree with you views. Having joined with very similar experience as yourself on the SH fleet I'm a big supporter of the seniority system and strongly disagree with your views; That because you have thousands of hours and been flying for 10 years you are entitled to a higher seniority then the pilot who joined a day or a year before you.

The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody. For example there is no such thing as DEC because it's cheaper for the company then to upgrade a FO (something my previous employer loved to do even though they kept telling the troops they rather upgrade from within). Also partly because of the seniority system it doesn't matter that people who joined after a person get offered a direct LH position. As soon as the more senior person gets LH they will have more roster satisfaction.

I appreciate everybody is different but also if you think a quick command in BA is going to give you a massive pay rise you are in for a surprise. A FO with high fleet seniority and therefor high credit efficient triplines is probably only around 500 pounds worse off then a junior skipper on blindlines with lots of TASS.
Jumbo2 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 01:26
  #3924 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Under the table
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by BASHLH View Post
Stocious,

I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!

Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).

Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.

Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!
I've just re-read the Yammer post in question and can see none of the sense of entitlement you seem to see. It's a polite and reasonable question, with not one use of the word 'when' or any other presumptive language.

The early FPPs started in late 2013 and despite being pretty work-shy and a number of intakes behind them, I'm only a couple of hundred hours short of the OM A requirements at present, let alone by the time I'd start a course. Not that I'm bidding for one. I can imagine some of the keener ones have the hours required.

Either way, I suspect the point is moot this year.
Stocious is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 06:38
  #3925 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 31
All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...

What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:

- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet

Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer

How come they are only taking 65 now?
Saab0409 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 06:47
  #3926 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: England
Posts: 53
I don't want to give false hope but having mulled over this, I think there was good reason for an overly pessimistic outlook.

After all you are now going to be swimming for another year, whereas before there was no prospect of a job.

All speculation on my part but hopefully all swimmers will get what they fully deserve eventually.
PressTheTit is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 09:10
  #3927 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 180
The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody.
The seniority system also artificially restricts effective free movement between companies, and depresses terms and conditions. It is an anachronistic system, and the fact that it's not used in any other profession speaks volumes.
akindofmagic is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 12:36
  #3928 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,083
An awful lot of Captains I fly with on the 744 are going to retire in the not too distant future. You only have to look in iBid and search the RETs to see the numbers which are steadily leaving. Many choose only to give the bare minimum notice. I'd be very surprised if there is no recruitment in the short term. This is just my observation. I've given up on Yammer!
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Old 27th Jul 2017, 17:23
  #3929 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 687
Saab
All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...

What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:

- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet

Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer

How come they are only taking 65 now?
What you seem to be 'missing' is something already contained in your list. The "different rostering system" is JSS. This will ensure that all pilots meet their CAP commitment every month. Currently many Blind Line Holders only manage that with the use of (often useless!) Time Assignable.

Ergo, fewer pilots required by BA to cover the same amount of work!

Because we don't want to digress, we won't bother explaining where the trips, currently unavailable to junior BLHs will come from!
4468 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 18:26
  #3930 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 841
4468, you're probably right in as much as potentially fewer pilots to cover the work. But that, in my opinion, still won't mitigate all the other factors. There's going to be more than just the 65, but I suspect they're going to be white tail cadets, then DEP will cover any unforeseen holes after the flying programme/bid results are known (if any).
RexBanner is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2017, 19:31
  #3931 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 432
640hrs in a year on blind lines........20% less than most trip line holders.
bex88 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2017, 13:58
  #3932 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: six micro tesla zone
Age: 29
Posts: 401
This is one of my favourite threads on PPRuNe, but I've never posted until now.

May I be so bold as to ask what a full-time, LH, TRE, with say 25 years senerority could expect to earn at BA?

IMHO. Maybe it's a flaw with my generation or maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but most people my age do not seem to play the long game and are not prepared to invest longterm into their career and await the fruits of their labour.

This is not a shot at guys on this thread in their mid 30s+ with kids and mortgages. I understand you can not hang around waiting for T&Cs to improve when you are in that stage of your life.

So, in light of my intial question, surely BA is still a company to aim for if you are my age?
MaverickPrime is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2017, 14:40
  #3933 (permalink)  
VJW
Sciolist (look it up) of the first order
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 872
FO or Captain?
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Old 29th Jul 2017, 15:52
  #3934 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 134
What's your age ?
With the rise of low cost LH I'm sure BA will have to make more cost cuts too "streamline" its operations
Pp24-pp34 ?
Snapper5 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2017, 15:54
  #3935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by MaverickPrime View Post
This is one of my favourite threads on PPRuNe, but I've never posted until now.

May I be so bold as to ask what a full-time, LH, TRE, with say 25 years senerority could expect to earn at BA?

IMHO. Maybe it's a flaw with my generation or maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but most people my age do not seem to play the long game and are not prepared to invest longterm into their career and await the fruits of their labour.

This is not a shot at guys on this thread in their mid 30s+ with kids and mortgages. I understand you can not hang around waiting for T&Cs to improve when you are in that stage of your life.

So, in light of my intial question, surely BA is still a company to aim for if you are my age?
Captain TRE approx 130k plus variable pay on PP34 or 150k on PP24. 25 years is a long time though a lot of people will be retiring before reaching that level of seniority. Alternatively you can go to Easy and earn that much after 3 to 4! No one comes to BA for the money any more.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2017, 16:34
  #3936 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 148
So.... it will be interesting to see if any DEP's actually get taken on. After all that hard work to get in and then to be mucked around isn't a good feeling at all!
applecrumble is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2017, 17:38
  #3937 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 841
Originally Posted by Snapper5 View Post
What's your age ?
With the rise of low cost LH I'm sure BA will have to make more cost cuts too "streamline" its operations
Pp24-pp34 ?
Long Haul low cost isn't viable in the long run. If it were then O'Leary would have already done it. And don't tell me he hasn't costed it.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 20:51
  #3938 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Dirty South
Posts: 413
Originally Posted by Officer Kite View Post
Cadet programmes have been on for yonks and as far as I'm aware there is no correlation between them and aircraft crashing ...
Air France 447 etc. Both of the pilots at the controls were Air France cadets. I could go on, but I won't bore anyone with the obvious.

we don't want FAA 1500hr madness in Europe either so things are fine as they are.
I can see why your self interest would lead you to that conclusion. However; the highest paying airline jobs in the world* are in the U.S. The average F.O. yearly income at a large low cost carrier (737) is higher than a LH Captain at British Airways (160K per annum). That doesn't include the retirement paid by the company. The minimum hiring requirement for a F.O. is 1000 hours of turbine command. As another poster mentioned, the regional airlines are starting F.O. on 45K. The company pays for a pilots training and type rating.

Given the news that well qualified DEP at BA have just received, and the lack of rest/fatigue management rules, I'm surprised to hear a pilot say that "things are fine as they are" in Europe.

* I haven't included CA positions in China, since it's not relevant.
JPJP is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2017, 23:54
  #3939 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 180
IMHO. Maybe it's a flaw with my generation or maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but most people my age do not seem to play the long game and are not prepared to invest longterm into their career and await the fruits of their labour.
The problem with this argument is pretty obvious really. I became a captain when I was 30. Running my take home pay backwards through a UK salary calculator shows that I would have to earn well over 200k a year to have the same net pay in the UK, and I work part time. Granted, I live in an expensive part of the world, but not appreciably more so than London.

I'm sure there are BA captains who earn more than me, but they'll have been in the company a long time, and almost certainly have training and/or management responsibilities (or do a hell of a lot of overtime!). The power of a (relatively) high salary when you're (relatively) young is in compounding (the same reason why sticking money in a pension is a good idea at the earliest opportunity). Financially it simply wouldn't make sense for someone like me to make the move; yes, I'd probably earn more for the last few years of my career, but I've got around two decades a of earning more. All assuming Ts & Cs remain static of course!

As others have eluded to, going to BA certainly wouldn't be a decision based on finances for many. This is all to say nothing of the other reasons to make the switch.
akindofmagic is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2017, 12:13
  #3940 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: six micro tesla zone
Age: 29
Posts: 401
I think I'm wrong in my assumptions that BA is still a career airline, at least in some regards. The figures ENZO provided in his last post were a bit surprising to be honest.
MaverickPrime is offline  

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