Is Ukraine about to have a war?

[Ninthace]

Originally Posted by Beamr

Yet another confirmed T-90M kill. As the first obviously was no lucky shot the Russians really must be thinking hard what to do about it. And India thinking how to get rid of those.

As the latest evolution version of their 20th century kits aren't as good as advertised do the Russians dare to move the Armata in to the battlefield? I'd really love to know how it'll do in the battle, however a loss of one of those would really be a blow for the Russians.

I think they were looking the wrong way, Looks like a pantomime shot to me.

[Ninthace]

Originally Posted by WideScreen

And, to break up the Russian Federation, NATO needs to be in Moscow. Not to claim the country, though to initiate the political break-up of de Federation. With that, the Russian threat would be diminished, if not gone, etc.

If you think Putin is hacked of now, you try walking NATO into Russian territory, let alone getting to Moscow. What's more, the Russian people would be right behind him on that one for real. When Putin and his boys say no foreign forces in Russia, they mean it and will chuck everything they own at NATO, including the kitchen sink!

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by Spunky Monkey

You should be on stage with this, its comedy gold.

Nr. 1 in Ukraine seems to be doing pretty well, with a background like that. We also did have Reagan, though he was more of a movie star.

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by Ninthace

If you think Putin is hacked of now, you try walking NATO into Russian territory, let alone getting to Moscow. What's more, the Russian people would be right behind him on that one for real. When Putin and his boys say no foreign forces in Russia, they mean it and will chuck everything they own at NATO, including the kitchen sink!

Of course. Just find a way, to get this resolved. Oh, I don't say, it should be military hardware. So, maybe as part of a political cease fire agreement, once all Putin's armament is turned into scrap ?

[ORAC]

BREAKING: The Finnish parliament's defence committee recommends NATO membership.

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

That's the point that you keep getting wrong. The USSR, for example, broke up without NATO being in Moscow.

Russia is a country. USSR was a collection of independent countries, who each decided (including the main one Russia), that going further on their own would be more beneficial to all.

Breaking-up the Russian Federation, would imply breaking-up a country with a central government, law, currency, etc (vs. multiple governments for the USSR, with each a lot of "freedom" to decide).

[langleybaston]

Originally Posted by ninthace

if you think putin is hacked of now, you try walking nato into russian territory, let alone getting to moscow. What's more, the russian people would be right behind him on that one for real. When putin and his boys say no foreign forces in russia, they mean it and will chuck everything they own at nato, including the kitchen sink!

JUST ONE MORE TIME
NATO IS A DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE

which bit is not understood?

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by WideScreen

Russia is a country. USSR was a collection of independent countries, who each decided (including the main one Russia), that going further on their own would be more beneficial to all.

Breaking-up the Russian Federation, would imply breaking-up a country with a central government, law, currency, etc (vs. multiple governments for the USSR, with each a lot of "freedom" to decide).

Please, spare us this nonsense. Benefit of a doubt, perhaps you mean the Warsaw pact / East bloc in mainland Europe?

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

As we saw with Saddam and Gaddafi, removing the head of the beast just creates a power vacuum and gets the different factions fighting with each other for control - that really would be a bad thing for Russia and the rest of Europe.

I agree to that, as such, my suggestion to break up the Russian Federation in its individual states, which each do have a kind of "local government" already in place. Of course, a lot needs to be done, though, replacing Putin with just another dictator in a huge country, isn't going to take away the Russian threat, given its population seriously believes in all what the propaganda said. You're not going to change that in just a few years. So, better have a lot of small countries, who initially do not want to "work" together, etc, though learn on that, and each in itself aren't a threat to NATO.

Also, these individual states no longer have the ability to pay for the Nukes, so, these will also get scrapped.

Just assuming, it is possible to "bring" a democracy isn't something that is going to work, recent history has shown this extensively.

Having a lot of smaller though independent countries, condemned to gradually start working together to accomplish something, along the EU model, is one of the very few options, I think, to get rid of the Russian threat.

And, the above also sends a serious message to China, what might happen, in case they think a Hitler game would be appropriate.

[Ninthace]

Originally Posted by langleybaston

JUST ONE MORE TIME
NATO IS A DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE

which bit is not understood?

Don't tell me, tell him!

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by langleybaston

JUST ONE MORE TIME
NATO IS A DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE

which bit is not understood?

Yep, NATO is "defensive". I don't say, NATO should invade Russia, though certainly be a strong negotiation partner, the moment, Putin his armies are turned into scrap. IE, go to Moscow, being the political center in Russia. And, NATO not even has to go there physically. Just be an important party at the table. This moment will come inevitable, once the Russian army is depleted of all their shiny stuff. NATO, just take care to be there, to lay the groundwork, that NATO doesn't need to become military active, not your official role, though take care to be there.

[langleybaston]

Please, folks, stop b*ggering an important thread.
Most of us do not want to wade through the stuff.

As one says:

There's a war on !

[[email protected]]

Widescreen - not a NATO job at all but the EU could act as a partner to a future Russia (they already were to some extent with the German policies of building links through trade).

The power and money of the EU could help a reborn Russia stand on it's own feet but there would have to be no military threat - which the Russians perceive NATO to be - it would have to be trade based and would need a lot of investment from the West.

The Russians have a common currency, an almost common language and a country-wide system of command and control/government - if you can remove the FSB and the thought police from their country and introduce a bit of free speech without the threat of imprisonment (or worse) the raw materials for a successful rebirth of a proud nation are there.

[[email protected]]

Don't worry langleybaston, there will be another 'splash' clip along soon of poor sods losing their lives....

[dead_pan]

Whilst Russia is a country-mile from doing a Yugoslavia IMO, it does beg the question what would the likes of NATO, the EU and China do if it were to descend into civil war, with its various bits vying for control over its natural resources and nukes? If it came to some sort of sphere-of-influence carve-up, China could do quite well with the resource-rich eastern territories, Europe being left with all the lunatic-fringe territories west of the Urals...

[dead_pan]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Don't worry langleybaston, there will be another 'splash' clip along soon of poor sods losing their lives....

Here you go...Not sure what happens here - arty or a mine strike?

You Tube

[dead_pan]

Pretty good report from ITN, showing Uke plus some Rus fast air in action. The cameraman obviously wasn't briefed about standing in the blast zone of gun when it lets rip...

You Tube

[NutLoose]

Bugger this for a game of soldiers.

Twitter

[GlobalNav]

Originally Posted by Usertim

Interesting listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmEmdFIltNw

Oryx has only one Su35 downed , and the date\location matches this https://postlmg.cc/nMQgTND7

The interview sounds more like a prosecutorial interrogation. Whether Russia abides by the Geneva Convention or not this was not compliant.
The pilot says he was targeting air defense radars, acknowledges that radar operators may have been killed, that such installations are not in populated areas where civilians are likely collateral casualties. The interviewer isn’t seeking truth, he’s accusing the pilot in a very one-sided manner. As a former aircrew member I find this interview dishonorable. I certainly support Ukraine and believe what Russia is doing there is wrong, but based on what I see and hear in this “interview”, I don’t see this pilot as morally responsible for war crimes. He was doing his duty for the country he serves.

[Imagegear]

Originally Posted by GlobalNav

The interview sounds more like a prosecutorial interrogation. Whether Russia abides by the Geneva Convention or not this was not compliant.
The pilot says he was targeting air defense radars, acknowledges that radar operators may have been killed, that such installations are not in populated areas where civilians are likely collateral casualties. The interviewer isn’t seeking truth, he’s accusing the pilot in a very one-sided manner. As a former aircrew member I find this interview dishonorable. I certainly support Ukraine and believe what Russia is doing there is wrong, but based on what I see and hear in this “interview”, I don’t see this pilot as morally responsible for war crimes. He was doing his duty for the country he serves.

I agree, however one cannot equate the honourable treatment of POW's in Europe and the West with the callous disregard for human life, in every circumstance, certainly in Russia and to an extent in most other Eastern European countries.

It will take many generations on all sides to elevate their society to one more approaching that of the Free World. War is evil, evil begets evil. Eventually humanity may rise above such a blunt instrument but you or I will not see it.

IG