Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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not my job mate
it's a case of not my job mate! it has to be someones responsibilty. the safety of your workforce falls to the employer surely or am i being too simplistic? pleading ignorance will not suffice as a defence so be warned i and others accept that! 
i work with a wife of a jet/fighter pilot and i'll see if he knows the answer, or is prepared to answer.
i work with a wife of a jet/fighter pilot and i'll see if he knows the answer, or is prepared to answer.
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payback
another thing. if you are reading this from high above so to speak. why should the families pay back their pensions? the officers should be paying back their wages as they have not been doing their jobs properly. ignoring and compromising the safety of your staff/troops by putting their heads in the sand comes where exactly on the code of conduct for your roles. this would make interesting reading in the more public forum! change is not a scary thing it's a necessity to evolve, progress and be leaders....instead of staying still becoming stagnant and evolving into a laughing stock not the world leaders we once were.
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I would also like to add that at no stage have I claimed that a program to fit foam was cancelled.
I have learned that Harley 37 was not the only Hercules to get hit in GW2. I understand that several Hercules were HAMMERED with all kinds of small arms/AAA. None of them were shot down despite suffering hits to the wing. They had the protection of foam in the fuel tanks. I believe that the balance of probability is that the crew of XV179 were more likely to have survived the attack if the aircraft had been fitted with foam. If this Govt is serious in its desire to afford protection to military personnel why did it cancel an anti-missile program for the J Hercules? And why did it send Hercules to Afg without foam?
The manner in which the widows and relatives have been treated over the pensions clause is a disgrace. It highlights the apparent desire of the MoD to limit compensation by reducing pensions to save money, even where the fault lies with the employer. I would very much like to hear from anyone who was involved with the Chinook crash. I understand the MoD may have used strong arm tactics with the bereaved, concerning pensions and compensation caps. Please PM me if you can help.
I have learned that Harley 37 was not the only Hercules to get hit in GW2. I understand that several Hercules were HAMMERED with all kinds of small arms/AAA. None of them were shot down despite suffering hits to the wing. They had the protection of foam in the fuel tanks. I believe that the balance of probability is that the crew of XV179 were more likely to have survived the attack if the aircraft had been fitted with foam. If this Govt is serious in its desire to afford protection to military personnel why did it cancel an anti-missile program for the J Hercules? And why did it send Hercules to Afg without foam?
The manner in which the widows and relatives have been treated over the pensions clause is a disgrace. It highlights the apparent desire of the MoD to limit compensation by reducing pensions to save money, even where the fault lies with the employer. I would very much like to hear from anyone who was involved with the Chinook crash. I understand the MoD may have used strong arm tactics with the bereaved, concerning pensions and compensation caps. Please PM me if you can help.
Last edited by nigegilb; 21st Apr 2006 at 22:46.
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Slightly off thread but.............
Dave the squipper, who died on XV179, was part of my team in Sierra Leone. At the time of Dave's funeral his No1 jacket had the ribbon on for the OSM (Sierra Leone) Our favorite HQ in Gloucs is now questioning his entitlement !! 'was he there for 30 days? did he fly on that aircraft on a certain day?' The Assisting Officer to the widow is a top bloke, J1 @ EGDL are just 'doing their job', however finding auth sheets, F540's etc for some jobs isn't easy. I guess my point is that surely there must be SOMEONE at Binnsworth with 3 stripes and a spine to say 'just do it' and thereby relieve another widow of some grief and hassle that she could probably do without.
NigeGilb,
Have you noticed every piece of bumf the MoD/RAF produces has the little Fred Perry logo on? Any legal beagles out there got any thoughts on what Investing in People accreditation means?
PS. giblet pse pm me ref JG,MA and JS I might be interested on climbing aboard !!!!!
NigeGilb,
Have you noticed every piece of bumf the MoD/RAF produces has the little Fred Perry logo on? Any legal beagles out there got any thoughts on what Investing in People accreditation means?
PS. giblet pse pm me ref JG,MA and JS I might be interested on climbing aboard !!!!!
I'm sure that any worthwhile lawyer making a compensation claim on behalf of those affected will now include 100% of the exisiting widows' pension to the claim, in case MoD tries to stop paying it after settlement?
One of my suspicions concerning the Chinook Mull of Kintyre scandal is that, if the unjust 'gross negligence' verdict had NOT been made by Wratten and Day, then MoD could have been faced with much higher claims from the bereaved. Whether a case of corporate manslaughter could have been levied against the MoD for allowing an aircraft with known serviceability issues to be used for inessential passenger transport flying, I do not know.....
Good luck, nigegilb et al.; there must be some top level squirming going on up in Town.
One of my suspicions concerning the Chinook Mull of Kintyre scandal is that, if the unjust 'gross negligence' verdict had NOT been made by Wratten and Day, then MoD could have been faced with much higher claims from the bereaved. Whether a case of corporate manslaughter could have been levied against the MoD for allowing an aircraft with known serviceability issues to be used for inessential passenger transport flying, I do not know.....
Good luck, nigegilb et al.; there must be some top level squirming going on up in Town.
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leave them be!
have these people got nothing better to do? why not leave things as they are, let the dead rest in peace. it's not the done thing to question about this after steady's no longer here to speak up for himself. it makes me so bloody angry. as a grieving relative i can safely say i know how devastating this is to hear as a loved one left behind. who's place is it to question an entitlement? i'm sure there are many plebs who are not entitled to do their job as they can't fufil their role properly. they are happy to relinquish any duty of care to their troops by letting them go on a plane with inadequate/ non existent protection. so if you want to question entitlement then look a little nearer to home! leave us alone. all it seems to be is harassment. it's not necessary to question this at all. if anything i think a jobsworth has got a chip on their shoulder. if you knew what was going on in the steads life you'd think twice about your timing. what next? you'll come and question something to do with bob ?.
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I am absolutely staggered about the questioning of the entitlement of OSM (Sierra Leone). I have been holding off even mentioning this subject because it is so emotive. I will say this. I was in Afghanistan during Op Anaconda, a US offensive that resulted in several fatalities. Within days of the completion of the Op, the US Defence Secretary himself was in the hangar at Bagram pinning medals on the chests of proud US servicemen. Contrast this with Innsworth. At the time of the death of the crew of XV179, over 3 years had passed since the commencement of Afg conflict. Members of that crew had performed heroic tasks in Afg. They were still waiting for their recognition from Innsworth. The MoD may be happy to risk manage the lives of the crews but they could at least offer timely recognition of bravery. Please forward the details of this person questioning the bravery of Dave via PM.
I have been invited to meet AOC 2GP on 04 May. I would very much like to advise him in person who is responsible for this heartbreaking deed.
I have been invited to meet AOC 2GP on 04 May. I would very much like to advise him in person who is responsible for this heartbreaking deed.
Last edited by nigegilb; 23rd Apr 2006 at 12:32.
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international coverage
i'd like to let you all know that i have been offered the chance to get information about our concerns/campaign out onto an international level. i plan to use it to the full. i think that it is essential that other countries know how our government treat both those who dedicate their lives for it and those of us that are left behind as a result. i will have my story as it where offered out on a national and international level. i hope then that the point out that any troops belonging to another country that are transferred in our alberts are not protected as they are on their own alberts. even if i get that information across on a personal ladies magasine level, the readers will be mothers/ sisters/wives and the like. they may be moved into action to help support thre call for protection of all troops worldwide. the public voice will be too strong to ignore. i'm thinking of getting a paper to run a campaign calling for public to voice their opinions as to the support of foam insertion on our planes. all hercules not pick and choose. the government might be able to ignore your voices in the military but they can't ignore the public. i know this is extreme but desperate times call for desperate measures.
i call also, again, for any help that people can give me. if i'm to take this further i need to show that there is proof that this foam has been wanted for a long time. please PM me of any help you can give me. please.
last but not least methinks i have made a spectacular cock up. my lack of understanding of the term squiffer has allowed me to think that the david in question was stead and not williams. deepest apologies. i am mortified but the principle is still the same. which ******** has the wherewithall to decide that messing around with the dead is worthy of airtime, manpower and investigation? clearly someone who is lacking in the bollocks...and brain dept. what is to be gained in taking back an award or are the forces so hard up they have to recycle them. suggestion... get rid of the idiot who ordered it and have his wages! i hope there are no problems due to the mistake i made.
i call also, again, for any help that people can give me. if i'm to take this further i need to show that there is proof that this foam has been wanted for a long time. please PM me of any help you can give me. please.
last but not least methinks i have made a spectacular cock up. my lack of understanding of the term squiffer has allowed me to think that the david in question was stead and not williams. deepest apologies. i am mortified but the principle is still the same. which ******** has the wherewithall to decide that messing around with the dead is worthy of airtime, manpower and investigation? clearly someone who is lacking in the bollocks...and brain dept.
what is to be gained in taking back an award or are the forces so hard up they have to recycle them. suggestion... get rid of the idiot who ordered it and have his wages! i hope there are no problems due to the mistake i made.
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[QUOTE=FormerFlake]How can any aircraft be tasked into Irq/Afg without DAS, effective DAS , or with parts of it not working?QUOTE]
Hmmm!! There's most of us then!
Hmmm!! There's most of us then!
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C5 Crash
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=77492
Full fuel load no foam, but nitrogen supressant. No flames!!! Need I say more.
Full fuel load no foam, but nitrogen supressant. No flames!!! Need I say more.
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[QUOTE=nigegilb]
...... I believe that the balance of probability is that the crew of XV179 were more likely to have survived the attack if the aircraft had been fitted with foam. QUOTE]
maybe a valid point if it was small arms that brought her down - !! Doh!!
Nobody is arguing that we should have better kit - but you cant blame somebody for everything that happens. Perhaps the troops on the ground would like all over mortar and IED proof armour too? i bet they would.
If foam counters small arms, there is a cheaper method - fly higher - not like there's a radar threat to get under is it?! anything is vulnerable on take-off/landing/TLZ's
I would have more sympathy with your arguement if I thought FOAM would have changed the incident you argue about - it would not given the weapon involved and you all know it. We are all vulnerable to SA but this was not SA. It's a risk of the job - speak to the helo boys if you want to know more. Not nice but true.
And, before the tirade of abuse arrives - at least I'm keeping your thread at the top!
...... I believe that the balance of probability is that the crew of XV179 were more likely to have survived the attack if the aircraft had been fitted with foam. QUOTE]
maybe a valid point if it was small arms that brought her down - !! Doh!!
Nobody is arguing that we should have better kit - but you cant blame somebody for everything that happens. Perhaps the troops on the ground would like all over mortar and IED proof armour too? i bet they would.
If foam counters small arms, there is a cheaper method - fly higher - not like there's a radar threat to get under is it?! anything is vulnerable on take-off/landing/TLZ's
I would have more sympathy with your arguement if I thought FOAM would have changed the incident you argue about - it would not given the weapon involved and you all know it. We are all vulnerable to SA but this was not SA. It's a risk of the job - speak to the helo boys if you want to know more. Not nice but true.
And, before the tirade of abuse arrives - at least I'm keeping your thread at the top!
Last edited by Vage Rot; 24th Apr 2006 at 20:45.
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Board of Enquiry
Quote from RAF BoI page 25
"...the Board has concluded that the explosive separation of XV179's wing was caused by the ignition of the fuel/air mix in the number 4 fuel tank ullage. Furthermore, the Board concluded that the lack of a suppression system within the fuel tank, such as foam or inert gas, was a contributory factor."
The other Hercules hit by small arms fire 6 months before had just been fully refuelled with cold fuel. These two facts probably saved the lives of that crew. I am trying to save lives. This is what this whole thing is about. Politicians do not seem to care, neither seemingly do some members of HM Forces.
The BoI never released the information on the size of the projectile(s) that brought down XV179. It was deemed too sensitive.
"...the Board has concluded that the explosive separation of XV179's wing was caused by the ignition of the fuel/air mix in the number 4 fuel tank ullage. Furthermore, the Board concluded that the lack of a suppression system within the fuel tank, such as foam or inert gas, was a contributory factor."
The other Hercules hit by small arms fire 6 months before had just been fully refuelled with cold fuel. These two facts probably saved the lives of that crew. I am trying to save lives. This is what this whole thing is about. Politicians do not seem to care, neither seemingly do some members of HM Forces.
The BoI never released the information on the size of the projectile(s) that brought down XV179. It was deemed too sensitive.
Last edited by nigegilb; 24th Apr 2006 at 21:13.
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Still intrigued to know what your problem is really.
So, we have a tactical transport aircraft that flies regularly within the SMARMS threat band (take off and landing) in countries where every man and his dog has at least an AK in the cupboard and possibly a 12.7 in the back garden. Said individuals like nothing nothing more than loosing off a few rounds at passing aircraft. I fail to see what is so difficult to understand.
Surely it's just crass to risk the loss of an airframe, pax and crew to a 10p round when £50k would take most of that risk away? I think if you were perhaps flying in said threat band anything like as often then you might be singing a different tune.
Still, keep up the good work - I've not seen a single sub north of Basrah yet so you must be doing a good job
So, we have a tactical transport aircraft that flies regularly within the SMARMS threat band (take off and landing) in countries where every man and his dog has at least an AK in the cupboard and possibly a 12.7 in the back garden. Said individuals like nothing nothing more than loosing off a few rounds at passing aircraft. I fail to see what is so difficult to understand.
Surely it's just crass to risk the loss of an airframe, pax and crew to a 10p round when £50k would take most of that risk away? I think if you were perhaps flying in said threat band anything like as often then you might be singing a different tune.
Still, keep up the good work - I've not seen a single sub north of Basrah yet so you must be doing a good job
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Originally Posted by fat albert
Still, keep up the good work - I've not seen a single sub north of Basrah yet so you must be doing a good job
Also, I refer you to the previous comment on this thread of checking what people do!
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Vage Rot
You're entitled to your opinion, but unless you've seen something different to everyone else about weapon types and a DEFINITE CONCLUSION to the event I think you're misguided. I think you have the wrong information, or drawn the wrong conclusions. I think any further discussion on specifics would be classified and I advise against further release. Get the drift...
I agree with some of your thoughts on the altitude and flight profile but the foam may well have saved the aircraft in this case. Noone will ever know for definite.
More importantly, to my mind, is the possibility that it may save an aircraft in the future. We (as the RAF) have learned some lessons from this sad event, some of which we are implementing, some we are not. As you incontrovertibily point out, everything is vulnerable at some point in a sortie, in whatever profile. With that level of tactical insight, I thought you must teach tactics on the KOCU. Upon checking your profile, I see that you must complete the VEG ROTA. I now understand why you fail to see the issues involved here. It's amazing that people can listen without hearing...
At the most critical point, I would rather have an aircraft with foam than without. It's simple.
I don't think you need to patronise about risk. Everyone understands it. The rotary guys are in a different scenario for tactical implementation than we are. We haven't lost a rotary asset in the same way as the US guys have (hostile fire) unless I'm very much mistaken. Suggest you speak to them and find out more...
I get the feeling you're looking for a controversial bite, rather than informing the debate.
You're entitled to your opinion, but unless you've seen something different to everyone else about weapon types and a DEFINITE CONCLUSION to the event I think you're misguided. I think you have the wrong information, or drawn the wrong conclusions. I think any further discussion on specifics would be classified and I advise against further release. Get the drift...
I agree with some of your thoughts on the altitude and flight profile but the foam may well have saved the aircraft in this case. Noone will ever know for definite.
More importantly, to my mind, is the possibility that it may save an aircraft in the future. We (as the RAF) have learned some lessons from this sad event, some of which we are implementing, some we are not. As you incontrovertibily point out, everything is vulnerable at some point in a sortie, in whatever profile. With that level of tactical insight, I thought you must teach tactics on the KOCU. Upon checking your profile, I see that you must complete the VEG ROTA. I now understand why you fail to see the issues involved here. It's amazing that people can listen without hearing...
At the most critical point, I would rather have an aircraft with foam than without. It's simple.
I don't think you need to patronise about risk. Everyone understands it. The rotary guys are in a different scenario for tactical implementation than we are. We haven't lost a rotary asset in the same way as the US guys have (hostile fire) unless I'm very much mistaken. Suggest you speak to them and find out more...
I get the feeling you're looking for a controversial bite, rather than informing the debate.
Last edited by rudekid; 24th Apr 2006 at 21:53.
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uh oh......i did something stupid. i looked at those photos. can anyone imagine how i feel right now after i've seen them. then i turn and look at the photo of my brother because thats all i've got left. so while you talk about wether foam saves or the certain kind of bullet does enough to bring down a plane remember what this is about. life. the preservation of life in the future.
just so that we are clear... the report that was handed to the families was redacted.
it seems to me vage rot that all you are interested in is being controversial. you leave your reply with comments "before the tirade of abuse begins" and "at least i'm keeping your thread at the top"......oh be still my beating heart my hero! you are simply too kind with your favours......not. you really think that you are adding something worthwhile don't you. by all mean bring forward facts. that is always appreciated but i see your spell away from the thread has shown that you have still not learnt how to put your point across approriately.
a point you should all consider. whatever hit the wing there was no element of explosive found in it. there was no explosive head, no gun powder nothing,the explosion/ fire was caused by the explosive fuel vapour mix. wether it was a spark caused by the weapon/ bullet or heat associated with any thing travelling at a high speed is not known but that ignited the mix there.
just so that we are clear... the report that was handed to the families was redacted.
it seems to me vage rot that all you are interested in is being controversial. you leave your reply with comments "before the tirade of abuse begins" and "at least i'm keeping your thread at the top"......oh be still my beating heart my hero! you are simply too kind with your favours......not. you really think that you are adding something worthwhile don't you. by all mean bring forward facts. that is always appreciated but i see your spell away from the thread has shown that you have still not learnt how to put your point across approriately.
a point you should all consider. whatever hit the wing there was no element of explosive found in it. there was no explosive head, no gun powder nothing,the explosion/ fire was caused by the explosive fuel vapour mix. wether it was a spark caused by the weapon/ bullet or heat associated with any thing travelling at a high speed is not known but that ignited the mix there.
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Giblet
Prior to May 4, do a bit of digging reference my earlier post and find out if the AOC is aware of HIS ac tasking in theatre without a DAS. I would be very surprised if that was an authority he is willing to delegate to the ACC.
I can't be more helpful at the moment as I am out of the country and don't have access to the specific information, or the players involved. Keep an open mind about all 2 Gp ac, it's not just the C130. There are other assets inter and intra theatre which are part of 2 Gp. I'm sure I don't need to tell you this!
Chappie
Don't take to much to heart from the photos of the C5. It crashed in Dover USA following a probable engine failure and probable compounded errors. It certainly wasn't hostile fire. I'm sure that seeing them doesn't help, but hopefully Nige's campaign and your efforts wiil keep the issue in the limelight enough to make a difference to us in the future. By the way, there is a feature on PPrune where you can block individuals from your view, if you wish.
Regards
RK
Prior to May 4, do a bit of digging reference my earlier post and find out if the AOC is aware of HIS ac tasking in theatre without a DAS. I would be very surprised if that was an authority he is willing to delegate to the ACC.
I can't be more helpful at the moment as I am out of the country and don't have access to the specific information, or the players involved. Keep an open mind about all 2 Gp ac, it's not just the C130. There are other assets inter and intra theatre which are part of 2 Gp. I'm sure I don't need to tell you this!
Chappie
Don't take to much to heart from the photos of the C5. It crashed in Dover USA following a probable engine failure and probable compounded errors. It certainly wasn't hostile fire. I'm sure that seeing them doesn't help, but hopefully Nige's campaign and your efforts wiil keep the issue in the limelight enough to make a difference to us in the future. By the way, there is a feature on PPrune where you can block individuals from your view, if you wish.
Regards
RK
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RK,
No worries, I understand your concerns. I have had some help with other 2Gp assets. You should know that I have already brought up the subject of current daylight ops with the HCDC. I share you view of it. It is an area of serious concern in both theatres. I did enough of the no DAS thing with my own crew. Hopefully we will put that to the sword once and for all.
Take care,
NG
No worries, I understand your concerns. I have had some help with other 2Gp assets. You should know that I have already brought up the subject of current daylight ops with the HCDC. I share you view of it. It is an area of serious concern in both theatres. I did enough of the no DAS thing with my own crew. Hopefully we will put that to the sword once and for all.
Take care,
NG
Last edited by nigegilb; 24th Apr 2006 at 23:10.
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VR, this isn't about 1 aircraft loss, this is about deficient defensive aids on our AT fleet that was highlighted by the loss of 179. Who knows what would have saved 179? Foam may very well have prevented the fuel tanks going up and thats all that matters. The proper argument for fire retardent foam has been made countless times on these pages - we certainly aren't looking sympathy. I fail to see what your point is.
And yes, we know what you do - the comedy of you boys "big-timing" it round bsr is enough to keep us all amused
And yes, we know what you do - the comedy of you boys "big-timing" it round bsr is enough to keep us all amused