Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety

[flipster]

I'm always happy to buy you a beer, mate!

[chappie]

foam completion

bloody hell well done. you deserve a crate of beer and then some. this may sound completely mad but whilst i'm overjoyed and relieved, i feel sad in a way. this is a little strange i know. i'm glad that no more lives are under threat from their own ac. i guess that now it hits home that my brother could have been saved if only they listened before. i know it's weird that i'm crying at the mo but why did this not get sorted before. i feel so much anger knowing that losing one of your best crews could've been avoided but the powers that be did'nt think bobs life was worth saving. while i was trying to help nige i guess i felt that i was able to help him in some way as we were getting ready to do battle. something purposeful after bobs death. as a sister you get forgotten about and i felt like i was able to do something for him by helping his mates. i know all that i could be was the token relative to add clout but it really helped me. thanks for all the offer of help and support and for the chance to be included. you really are a hero nige. i knew that it would all be sorted at the eleventh hour and that the interviews wouldn't get used. i count myself as being blessed to have been able to potentially be part of it. who knows i may have managed something useful!! i hope that as the papers are signed agreeing to foam there is a thought for those we lost.....the one i miss and for the waste.
nige desrves a medal for going up against the holders of the pursestrings. i hope you get recognition for the wonders you have achieved. i'll be looking forward to telling people.
well , i guess it's time for goodbye as my role is done. remember you all do a fantastic job.take care and stay safe!

[nigegilb]

Chappie we don't want you to go just yet! There are lots of things happening at the moment. I understand that there are no figures for the J. There could be good reasons for this. I have written to the Defence Committee this week about another matter which you and I cannot discuss here. This battle is only partially won. The MoD have not accepted that foam would have saved the boys. ANYONE WHO KNEW THAT CREW KNOWS THEY COULD HAVE COPED WITH JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. However, they could do nothing about a fuel tank explosion.
What we can be reassured about today is the fact that Bob and the rest of the crew did not die in vain. If we had not intervened I am sure the J would not have got foam and the K might have waited a long time. Now we need to demand the reinstatement of the J DAS upgrade and we need protection for passengers.

When I started out I wanted foam for the Hercules fleet and an apology and compensation for the relatives\widows. We have made a good start but there is a long way to go yet. Hang in there Chappie.

[Vage Rot]

Originally Posted by nigegilb

Flip,
I heard a little story that Geoff Hoon's face, allegedly, was a picture when he was told that he was sitting on the aircraft's defensive aids suite (a flak jacket). tee hee.

Seems that may be the way forward - fly all the VIPs in non equipped aircraft. Scare the pants off them and then the govt might cough up the dosh!!

[500days2do]

Good result..!!!
Now for the timescale...!
Just wish
(a) we had this already
(b) it was an instant fix
(c) the events that have brought this to a head had never happened


reality..
well,we shall see..
fingers crossed...
5d2d

[flipster]

days2do

Valid points mate!

So, for those who are already out there, or about to go - we salute you.
Fly smart, think like the enemy and be unpredictable - but whatever you do, stay safe.

Flipster

[maximo ping]

Cheers mate... sure you're not just a little bit sorry that you're not still out there on the edge?!!
It's a long way away from scampers with luigi and 888 isn't it

[nigegilb]

From the sunday telegraph today...

MoD to cut war widows' pensions if they sue over husbands' deaths
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 09/04/2006)
The Ministry of Defence will cut war widows' pensions if they successfully sue the Government over the death of their husbands on the battlefield.
Widows of servicemen killed in Iraq have received written warnings from the MoD that their pensions
e reduced if they received compensation in relation to the death of their husband.
Troops carry the coffin of a soldier killed in IraqThe policy could mean that widows and relatives of dead servicemen could lose tens of thousands of pounds in pension payments if they force the MoD to pay compensation for negligence.
The revelation has sparked outrage from MPs and relatives of dead servicemen who have called for the warnings to be withdrawn immediately.
The warning appears in the form of a clause contained within the pension documentation and is entitled "Reduction in Attributable Forces Family Pension".
The clause states: "If you have been awarded an Attributable Family Pension, this may be subject to a reduction if at any time you receive compensation from a third party as a consequence of the death of your spouse."
MoD lawyers have already agreed to pay compensation to one widow whose husband was killed on the first day of the war in Iraq and the Sunday Telegraph understands that relatives of several other servicemen are also considering legal action to get similar compensation.
In a rare admission of liability, the MoD has agreed to pay compensation to Samantha Roberts, whose husband, Steven, was shot dead in March 2003, after he was ordered to hand his body armour to another soldier.
Mrs Roberts, 32, who receives less than £10,000 a year from her war widow's pension, described the policy as "disgusting and immoral".
She has been told not to expect any pay-out until the three-year investigation into her husband's death has been concluded but she is aware her widow's pension will be reduced.
She said: "This policy is disgusting, it's immoral. My husband made the ultimate sacrifice and now the MoD is quibbling over a small amount of money. Servicemen who go off to war are led to believe that if they die their families will get looked after, but that is not really the case."
In January last year, an RAF Hercules transport aircraft crashed close to Baghdad after it was hit by a missile fired by Iraqi insurgents. All 10 passengers and crew on board died in what remains the single biggest loss of British life in the Iraq war.
In the months that followed, relatives of the dead servicemen discovered that the MoD had ignored warnings from senior RAF officers, who had written reports suggesting an aircraft would be lost to hostile fire unless modifications were made to the engines.
It had been recommended that a "foam inertion system", which extinguishes engine fires, should be installed in transport aircraft flying into dangerous areas. The modifications cost about £50,000 per plane and are already standard on US and Australian Hercules models.
Relatives of the dead are considering legal action against the MoD because they believe that the accident was avoidable, but they have had to reconsider their position after they were made aware of the clause in the pension policy.
Kellie Merritt, 29, the widow of Flt Lt Paul Pardoel, an Australian who joined the RAF in 2002 after previously serving in the Royal Australian Air Force, spoke of her disappointment on learning her pension might be reduced.
Speaking from her home in Canberra, Australia, Ms Merritt, who has three children, said: "The pension my children and I receive is Paul's right of entitlement. His pension should be separate to any concern the next of kin have surrounding the deaths of the 10 servicemen."
Patrick Mercer, the shadow minister for homeland security, said: "Our heroes risk their lives and if they lose them they must have the confidence that there will be no corner cutting of their spouses' pension."
In a statement the MoD confirmed that pension payments were subject to a reduction if a widow received compensation.

[flipster]

What an appalling way to treat the bereaved - it makes me ashamed to be British!

[flipster]

Maximo

Are YOU sure you wouldn't be teaching S+L1 on camp in SMG this summer?

Silly me the fun detectors have stopped that game too - so I guess its back to the sandbox for you and your crew?

Give us a ring sometime and I'll buy you a beer!

Flipster

[maximo ping]

Not much S+L going on these days old boy!

[FJJP]

This latest development will result in a letter to my MP. Jonathan Djanogly is a Sqn Ldr under the Parliamentary Liaison scheme and is very supportive of our Services [inc the Chinook affair].

I will ask him to join the campaign to have this provision removed from the War Widows pension award.

I have watched this thread with fury building by the day. Chappie, I share your loss - stay with us, for as Nigegilb says, there is still much to be done and your input is invaluable.

Apart from helping you [and I know what you mean] you are an inspiration to keep the pot boiling.

regards,

FJJP

[TOPBUNKER]

By the way; stand be to be obliged to accept red lines for leaking K model fuel tanks once the foam is installed. PRC repairs in those knackered old wings will be very entertaining post mod!

[chappie]

hi i'm back. terribly sorry about emotional wobbly, feeling very sorry for myself!!

thanks for kind words and support. contacting your MP re: pensions clause would be very helpful.

i still refuse to be intimidated and i've started the ball rolling to action the next step. it would be very much appreciated to have your support.
a small but fantastic victory re:foam and like i've stated before nige deserves reconition.........or at least someone who can spell! as a family we still call for foam for all, not just some. it looks a little half hearted that only a few are being done. or am i living in cloud cuckoo land?

please go to website www.mfaw.org.uk and sign the petition to demand tony blair meets with bereaved families. on the 26th april i will go with other military families and meet with MP's and then take the petition to downing street. we will stop at the cenotaph to lay flowers for our loved ones. please feel free to contact your MP's to support us in our quest. i also have a letter on the webpage outlining my feelings.

keep an eye out in the independent as a story is going out about the pensions fiasco tomorrow.

[nigegilb]

Adam Ingram has just issued the following written answer to a
parliamentary question from Mike Hancock:

"We have decided, subject to final contract negotiations, to fit some
of our C-130s with Explosion Suppressant Foam, and expect the first
aircraft to be ready for operational tasking within the next few
months."


So there is the confirmation. Still no news about numbers for the J which makes me slightly suspicious I will attempt to firm this up.

Another question for Mr Ingram


Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what discussions he has had with his counterparts in other countries on the merits of fitting a fuel tank inerting system to the A400M aircraft.

[mary_hinge]

From the Cambridge News Paper dated 13th April 2006:
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news...05b3c89c08.lpf

[nigegilb]

From Wilts Gazette and Herald 13 Apr

http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/ne...ns_at_risk.php

In the same newspaper the opinion column rounds on the MoD calling it villain of the week!

It appears the argument is raging. I have been leafing through a copy of the HCDC report of the UK deployment to Afghanistan. I have been left speechless by some of the comments by Adam Ingram. When referring to the possibility of fitting defensive aids to the Hercules he says,

"Is there an answer to it? Possibly. Can we deliver it? Possibly. When are we going to do it? We have to decide if it is worthwhile doing in terms of age of the aircraft, whether it is technically possible and what it means in terms of the fleet. If the view is that there is a risk associated with this and someone's life may be lost, that is the nature of the conflict. It weighs heavy on all of the minds who make the decisions. There are risks in everything we do."

I wonder what he would say if we lost a Hercules with 70 troops on board. Is it just me, or does this smack of First World War thinking? Bearing in mind that our coalition partners have far superior defensive protection our troops are just expected to give up their lives for the greater good. And this self-same Govt has just agreed to give 8 Billion pounds to African Education.

[Safeware]

nigegilb,
While I admire what you have done, and I think that some of the 'risk' decisions deserve such scrutiny to ensure that risks are really being managed and reduced ALARP, what Adam Ingram says in

We have to decide if it is worthwhile doing in terms of age of the aircraft, whether it is technically possible and what it means in terms of the fleet.

is actually correct and iaw case law and H&S guidance. If the cost of fixing something is grossly disproportionate to the benefit, then there is an argument for living with the risk. ie if it would cost £100 million to institute a modification that could only be seen to save one life for a risk that was assessed as low, then not doing the mod would be ok. If you had an argument that said for £100 million a mod could be introduced that would save 100 lives by preventing loss of life, you would be on dodgy ground taking the risk of not introducing the mod.
One of the main issues is 'are the grown ups accepting the risk correctly, or on the basis of praying that it will never happen'? One in a million seems an awful small risk until it happens to you or yours.

But as I said, congrats on what you have achieved.

sw

[nigegilb]

SW I agree with you in a sense that all this boils down to is money. It seems the Australians and the Americans are happy to spend it on protecting their military personnel but we are not happy to spend it on our own. So now all we are talking about is politics and if the politicians were honest and said this is the threat, we can counter it but we think it is too expensive then at least they would be making an honest statement. Instead we get misleading statements. For example, the Hercules was not believed to be under threat from small arms in 2002. Or, every Hercules going in to Afghanistan in 2002 had a DAS. Or, we would never put a Hercules into Afghanistan if it could not counter the threat believed to be there. I can tell you from my own experiences that these statements are false. Unless these points are made in public with implied accountability nothing will change. I am not squeamish when it comes to spending money, I think spending it on self- protection is a laudable aim. All I really want is some honesty here.

[Safeware]

nigegilb, I agree that an open and honest approach is needed. Unfortunately, politics and safety are 2 areas where there are no absolutes and 'societal' influences are greatest. Your foam being a microcosm of this - it would have been 'safe' to have implemented this mod some time ago, however politics (ie ac operational in theatre) trumped this. However, societal pressure after the accident has forced a change in policy.

As they say, if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.

sw