Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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RK,DF,NG,EX thankyou for your support in this and your kind words.
i understand that i'm trespassing on this thread as this is not my territory and see myself as a guest. i am mindful of the work you guys do and i have the utmost respect for you.
i understand that different views will be held. thats understandable but there are ways of putting those points forward. the person who thinks that "a few pink bodies" are acceptable should find themselves somewhere else to spout their poison, as that is all that it is. when you have to sink to that level and cause distress of the highest kind i think you should realise it's time to slink off back under the rock from where you came. there are mothers, wives, other relatives and ex colleagues reading this and referring to someones son/brother or mate as a pink body only highlights the fact that you don't belong here. you clearly are unable to add to your arguement in an adult way. this thread is for grown ups, who wish to discuss all sides of the debate.
i am reading the other view points with interest and do try to take them on board. i do not immediately dismiss them.
i understand that i'm trespassing on this thread as this is not my territory and see myself as a guest. i am mindful of the work you guys do and i have the utmost respect for you.
i understand that different views will be held. thats understandable but there are ways of putting those points forward. the person who thinks that "a few pink bodies" are acceptable should find themselves somewhere else to spout their poison, as that is all that it is. when you have to sink to that level and cause distress of the highest kind i think you should realise it's time to slink off back under the rock from where you came. there are mothers, wives, other relatives and ex colleagues reading this and referring to someones son/brother or mate as a pink body only highlights the fact that you don't belong here. you clearly are unable to add to your arguement in an adult way. this thread is for grown ups, who wish to discuss all sides of the debate.
i am reading the other view points with interest and do try to take them on board. i do not immediately dismiss them.
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Nige et al
Just to clarify a few points, before I withdraw from the public debate. I am very well aware of how flight crews work and the level of supervision they receive. I know you well!
I am not per se criticising the supervision, nor, as you suggest, do I think they were badly supervised. Supervision and direction are two different areas. Whilst I appreciate that hindsight enables clarity, the crew were poorly directed by their higher command elements. Information, assessment and alternatives were all available but not implemented. This is not Steady's responsibility out in theatre to resolve. Nor do I believe it to be a Sqn responsibility. I'm afraid I don't buy the line about operational imperatives for daytime flight. Nor do many others. Balance of risk is a difficult issue, but someone must take responsibility for balancing that risk. I can clearly see when an operational imperative for daytime OLF might exist, however I simply don't believe it to be the case here.
Your laudable aim of trying to stop this happening again by implementation of foam may prevent a recurrence. So might cessation of day flying. Something we are still doing routinely, some 15 months after the event. I am fully conversant with operating isues in theatres, having flown over 200 sorties in theatres in the last 12 months alone. However, a simple directive from above would be able to stop daytime flying in an instant. Everything else would just have to be worked around. All it needs is the will to carry it out.
I don't partcularly wish anyone to lose their job, but I'm not sure how well the balance of risk is being assessed. Are you talking about the last or present AOC 2 Gp?
I am very glad that this thread is being read at high levels. Perhaps someone may be able to answer my next question. Risk balancing; try explaining this when having to sit in a families lounge and explain that their son/daughter won't be coming home...
Are you aware that during the last six months, 2 Gp RAF ac have been tasked into theatre without a serviceable DAS of any sort? Authorised a long way up the chain...Is the AOC aware that his ac have been authorised for this? I hate to bring things like this out in a public forum, but noone seems to listen. Anonymity can be a powerful tool!
I don't accept your point about having to stay within the findings of the BoI. I have already stated my reasons for believing the BoI to be a sop to authority. The HCDC has the power to look outside the BoI at wider issues involved in this case. You've done a good job on the foam, why stop there? You have the contacts and freedom of movement to pressure the politicians on these issues. Most of us don't. Only when the politicians start taking an interest will we get movement and a re-assessment of the risk balance.
Finally, for further clarification, I am not having, and have not had a go at any of the crew. I don't think anyone else has either.
Regards and continued best wishes for the foam campaign.
RK
Just to clarify a few points, before I withdraw from the public debate. I am very well aware of how flight crews work and the level of supervision they receive. I know you well!
I am not per se criticising the supervision, nor, as you suggest, do I think they were badly supervised. Supervision and direction are two different areas. Whilst I appreciate that hindsight enables clarity, the crew were poorly directed by their higher command elements. Information, assessment and alternatives were all available but not implemented. This is not Steady's responsibility out in theatre to resolve. Nor do I believe it to be a Sqn responsibility. I'm afraid I don't buy the line about operational imperatives for daytime flight. Nor do many others. Balance of risk is a difficult issue, but someone must take responsibility for balancing that risk. I can clearly see when an operational imperative for daytime OLF might exist, however I simply don't believe it to be the case here.
Your laudable aim of trying to stop this happening again by implementation of foam may prevent a recurrence. So might cessation of day flying. Something we are still doing routinely, some 15 months after the event. I am fully conversant with operating isues in theatres, having flown over 200 sorties in theatres in the last 12 months alone. However, a simple directive from above would be able to stop daytime flying in an instant. Everything else would just have to be worked around. All it needs is the will to carry it out.
I don't partcularly wish anyone to lose their job, but I'm not sure how well the balance of risk is being assessed. Are you talking about the last or present AOC 2 Gp?
I am very glad that this thread is being read at high levels. Perhaps someone may be able to answer my next question. Risk balancing; try explaining this when having to sit in a families lounge and explain that their son/daughter won't be coming home...
Are you aware that during the last six months, 2 Gp RAF ac have been tasked into theatre without a serviceable DAS of any sort? Authorised a long way up the chain...Is the AOC aware that his ac have been authorised for this? I hate to bring things like this out in a public forum, but noone seems to listen. Anonymity can be a powerful tool!
I don't accept your point about having to stay within the findings of the BoI. I have already stated my reasons for believing the BoI to be a sop to authority. The HCDC has the power to look outside the BoI at wider issues involved in this case. You've done a good job on the foam, why stop there? You have the contacts and freedom of movement to pressure the politicians on these issues. Most of us don't. Only when the politicians start taking an interest will we get movement and a re-assessment of the risk balance.
Finally, for further clarification, I am not having, and have not had a go at any of the crew. I don't think anyone else has either.
Regards and continued best wishes for the foam campaign.
RK
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low level flying
i may be wrong and i will be checking my facts but one of the contributory factors of the crash that we were told may have been low level flying. as a result it was going to be implemented that low level was going to be avoided where possible. i am aware that the parameters for such manoeuvres can be moved but it does appear that there was a high level of lip service that was paid to us. i think that sticking to the recommendations could be done in an ideal world but i think that there is no intention of sticking to them 100% of the time and there is no way we, as families, will find out.
i hear what you say and agree about keeping the pressure on the government. i know i'm not that important in the scheme of things but if i can help wherever i can then i will. i know that there are risks to be taken and there is the cold, stark, ugly reality of life in the military but you still entrust your son/daughter to the organisation hoping that they will do their best to protect your child and have some sort of duty of care. when you get that call to tell you that they died there will be no way of reasoning that the risk that was taken with a son was assessed prior to that point and deemed not high enough. i will say this, however, THE GUYS ON THE FRONTLINE LIVE THE REALITY AND SHOULD BE LISTENED TOAND MAKE THE RISK ASSESSMENTS NOT THE GUYS FURTHER UP THE CHAIN WHO HIDE IN THEIR OFFICES. there is no way they can have one iota about the real needs of the everyday solider.
as i mentioned before, i work in the nhs...on the frontline as it were. i have worked for some of the largest trusts in the UK. i have endured working under the management of a chief executive who worked for iceland (freezer shop). he had no nursing/medical experience and as such was so out of touch about the real needs of his workforce and it showed as we became more like a business not a hospital. everything revolved around a budget and we went down hill and could not do our jobs properly. the same could be said about the military from what i'm hearing. these services are not businesses so stop running them like one!
i hear what you say and agree about keeping the pressure on the government. i know i'm not that important in the scheme of things but if i can help wherever i can then i will. i know that there are risks to be taken and there is the cold, stark, ugly reality of life in the military but you still entrust your son/daughter to the organisation hoping that they will do their best to protect your child and have some sort of duty of care. when you get that call to tell you that they died there will be no way of reasoning that the risk that was taken with a son was assessed prior to that point and deemed not high enough. i will say this, however, THE GUYS ON THE FRONTLINE LIVE THE REALITY AND SHOULD BE LISTENED TOAND MAKE THE RISK ASSESSMENTS NOT THE GUYS FURTHER UP THE CHAIN WHO HIDE IN THEIR OFFICES. there is no way they can have one iota about the real needs of the everyday solider.
as i mentioned before, i work in the nhs...on the frontline as it were. i have worked for some of the largest trusts in the UK. i have endured working under the management of a chief executive who worked for iceland (freezer shop). he had no nursing/medical experience and as such was so out of touch about the real needs of his workforce and it showed as we became more like a business not a hospital. everything revolved around a budget and we went down hill and could not do our jobs properly. the same could be said about the military from what i'm hearing. these services are not businesses so stop running them like one!
Last edited by chappie; 16th Apr 2006 at 20:08.
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RK
I have read several of your past thread replies and the is a common thread manly stirring and animosity to those asking sensible questions of others and of there so called peers and masters. So if you want to wind people go to the J thread and take the piss out of them it is very easy. Some threads on here are having the desired effect.
I have read several of your past thread replies and the is a common thread manly stirring and animosity to those asking sensible questions of others and of there so called peers and masters. So if you want to wind people go to the J thread and take the piss out of them it is very easy. Some threads on here are having the desired effect.
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Parliamentary version of answers
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1)what plans he has to fit the new K model Hercules aircraft with (a) the latest generation defensive aids suite and (b) foam in the wing tanks; and if he will make a statement; [57110]
(2) which J model Hercules aircraft have been fitted with (a) the latest generation defensive aids suite and (b) foam in the wing tanks; and what plans he has to equip the remaining aircraft. [57111]
18 Apr 2006 : Column 7W
Mr. Ingram: Both C-130K and C-130J aircraft are fitted with varying combinations of the following defensive aids:
Countermeasures Dispensing System
Directional Infra Red Counter Measures
Flight Deck Armour
Lamp Infra Red Counter Measure
Missile Approach Warning Receiver
Radar Warning Receiver
We have decided, subject to final contract negotiations, to fit some of our C-130s with Explosion Suppressant Foam, and expect the first aircraft fitted to be ready for operational tasking within the next few months.
I am withholding information on the specific defensive aids and survivability measures employed on each C-130K and C-130J airframe because it would risk prejudicing the security of our armed forces.
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent research he has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the effectiveness of (i) the latest generation defensive aids suite and (ii) foam in the wing tanks of Hercules aircraft; and what conclusions he has drawn. [57154]
Mr. Ingram: The Air Warfare Centre continually assesses the effectiveness of current defensive aid suites against current and emerging threats. Specific research looking at the threats to our aircraft, options for protection and air platform survivability measures, is also under way and will, among other issues, review the effectiveness of foam in aircraft fuel tanks. The details of these programmes cannot be released as this would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness and security of our armed forces.
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when each of the Mk 3 Hercules was fitted with associated defensive aids systems. [57158]
Mr. Ingram: All Hercules C-130K Mk 3 aircraft are equipped with infra-red defensive counter-measures and have been since the early 1990s. In 2003 a number of Hercules C-130K Mk 3 aircraft were fitted with a range of additional defensive aid systems and flight deck armour. The actual number of aircraft so equipped is being withheld as information on the precise combination of defensive aids employed on individual airframes could prejudice the security of the UK armed forces.
Note that Mr Ingram admits that the MK3 was given additional defensive aid systems in 2003. I interpret this to be a DAS and I will be returning to that statement. I also intend to fully respond to RK. Just need a bit more time. Still no word on J numbers for foam. My intention is to increase the pressure on reinstating the J DAS upgrade program. Shopping lists help create a false sense of security for concerned MPs.
One other point, I was tasked to do a handful of daylight runs int Afg. As a crew we agreed to do them but on one occasion my authoriser point blank refused to give us the mission. He threw it back at mission planning and we were not tasked with daylight runs again. His career was not affected neither was his conscience troubled. If authorisers are sending crews into theatre without DAS they are making a big mistake. John Reid himself has said that "Only Hercules with appropriate defensive countermeasures are deployed to operational theatres." RK if you can send me some facts I will pursue it.
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1)what plans he has to fit the new K model Hercules aircraft with (a) the latest generation defensive aids suite and (b) foam in the wing tanks; and if he will make a statement; [57110]
(2) which J model Hercules aircraft have been fitted with (a) the latest generation defensive aids suite and (b) foam in the wing tanks; and what plans he has to equip the remaining aircraft. [57111]
18 Apr 2006 : Column 7W
Mr. Ingram: Both C-130K and C-130J aircraft are fitted with varying combinations of the following defensive aids:
Countermeasures Dispensing System
Directional Infra Red Counter Measures
Flight Deck Armour
Lamp Infra Red Counter Measure
Missile Approach Warning Receiver
Radar Warning Receiver
We have decided, subject to final contract negotiations, to fit some of our C-130s with Explosion Suppressant Foam, and expect the first aircraft fitted to be ready for operational tasking within the next few months.
I am withholding information on the specific defensive aids and survivability measures employed on each C-130K and C-130J airframe because it would risk prejudicing the security of our armed forces.
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent research he has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the effectiveness of (i) the latest generation defensive aids suite and (ii) foam in the wing tanks of Hercules aircraft; and what conclusions he has drawn. [57154]
Mr. Ingram: The Air Warfare Centre continually assesses the effectiveness of current defensive aid suites against current and emerging threats. Specific research looking at the threats to our aircraft, options for protection and air platform survivability measures, is also under way and will, among other issues, review the effectiveness of foam in aircraft fuel tanks. The details of these programmes cannot be released as this would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness and security of our armed forces.
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when each of the Mk 3 Hercules was fitted with associated defensive aids systems. [57158]
Mr. Ingram: All Hercules C-130K Mk 3 aircraft are equipped with infra-red defensive counter-measures and have been since the early 1990s. In 2003 a number of Hercules C-130K Mk 3 aircraft were fitted with a range of additional defensive aid systems and flight deck armour. The actual number of aircraft so equipped is being withheld as information on the precise combination of defensive aids employed on individual airframes could prejudice the security of the UK armed forces.
Note that Mr Ingram admits that the MK3 was given additional defensive aid systems in 2003. I interpret this to be a DAS and I will be returning to that statement. I also intend to fully respond to RK. Just need a bit more time. Still no word on J numbers for foam. My intention is to increase the pressure on reinstating the J DAS upgrade program. Shopping lists help create a false sense of security for concerned MPs.
One other point, I was tasked to do a handful of daylight runs int Afg. As a crew we agreed to do them but on one occasion my authoriser point blank refused to give us the mission. He threw it back at mission planning and we were not tasked with daylight runs again. His career was not affected neither was his conscience troubled. If authorisers are sending crews into theatre without DAS they are making a big mistake. John Reid himself has said that "Only Hercules with appropriate defensive countermeasures are deployed to operational theatres." RK if you can send me some facts I will pursue it.
Last edited by nigegilb; 19th Apr 2006 at 17:23.
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Another article in today's Times about the crash. Thought the MoD comment was interesting.
“Prior to this incident it was not thought that the aircraft was vulnerable to a fuel tank explosion,” the spokesman said.
I wonder why US Hercs (over 600 on the inventory) and Aus Hercs have ESF then. I have the file reference of a document requesting fuel tank protection in 2002. Also wonder what a former 47 Sqn Flt Cdr (rtd) might think of this statement. He wrote reports pointing out such vulnerabilities. I understand that many RAF Herc exchange pilots who served in US forces also asked for foam on their return to UK. I have been told that a video illustrating the consequences of a round hitting an unprotected fuel tank was shown to Herc operators in 2002. I have been contacted by 3 USAF Herc exchange pilots and they are too kind to say "I told you so" in public. They are shaking their heads in disbelief. I am not sure how far up the food chain the vulnerabilities were known. I guess we will find out in the fullness of time.
“Prior to this incident it was not thought that the aircraft was vulnerable to a fuel tank explosion,” the spokesman said.
I wonder why US Hercs (over 600 on the inventory) and Aus Hercs have ESF then. I have the file reference of a document requesting fuel tank protection in 2002. Also wonder what a former 47 Sqn Flt Cdr (rtd) might think of this statement. He wrote reports pointing out such vulnerabilities. I understand that many RAF Herc exchange pilots who served in US forces also asked for foam on their return to UK. I have been told that a video illustrating the consequences of a round hitting an unprotected fuel tank was shown to Herc operators in 2002. I have been contacted by 3 USAF Herc exchange pilots and they are too kind to say "I told you so" in public. They are shaking their heads in disbelief. I am not sure how far up the food chain the vulnerabilities were known. I guess we will find out in the fullness of time.
Last edited by nigegilb; 19th Apr 2006 at 22:10.
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I am delighted that Mr Ingram confirmed that the MK3 received DAS protection in 2003. You are quite right this is correct and this information is very useful as FF alludes to the policy of putting Herc crews into Afg without DAS in 2001/02. This is denied by HMG. More later.
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another stone to throw in the pot!
well, well, well a little suprising the MOD reply to the article in the times today. i did'nt know the article was coming out in the times as i'd not done an interview with/for them so a little suprised. very suprised that they then went to the MOD considering all that's been said so far is we are planning to take action we haven't actually started it.
anyway here's one for you to mull over! i heard today.......strictly off the record from someone in the MOD via someone else that the MOD want to implement the foam and are keen to do so, it's the pilots that are making it difficult as they being obstructive!!! they complain that it will affect the manouvreability of the plane.so what do you think to that? is there any truth in that. it would be great to know.
anyway here's one for you to mull over! i heard today.......strictly off the record from someone in the MOD via someone else that the MOD want to implement the foam and are keen to do so, it's the pilots that are making it difficult as they being obstructive!!! they complain that it will affect the manouvreability of the plane.so what do you think to that? is there any truth in that. it would be great to know.
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Less gas, but more wing left if hit by anything larger than BB!
The only effect foam has on the maneuverability of the airplane is that it takes up 3% of the fuel tanks' capacity. No added weight/CG effects. Haven't missed that displaced fuel in 15 years of flying USAF Alberts, especially not in a Herk with aerial refueling capability.
Haven't worried about missing 23 feet of wing either flying into places like Angola, Bosnia, and Iraq.
Keep up the good work.
ExHerkmate
Haven't worried about missing 23 feet of wing either flying into places like Angola, Bosnia, and Iraq.
Keep up the good work.
ExHerkmate
Chappie,
No pilot that I have spoken to who is currently serving at Lyneham has expressed any reservations about the fitting of ESF to the fuel tanks. After the tragic events of Jan 2005 we want it and many are frankly disappointed and surprised it hasn't been fitted already.
Your 'friend of a friend's strictly off the record' comment is of that status because he/she is talking nonsense.
No pilot that I have spoken to who is currently serving at Lyneham has expressed any reservations about the fitting of ESF to the fuel tanks. After the tragic events of Jan 2005 we want it and many are frankly disappointed and surprised it hasn't been fitted already.
Your 'friend of a friend's strictly off the record' comment is of that status because he/she is talking nonsense.
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http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../crs/47083.pdf
Have a look at this regarding missile threat in 2001/2 in Afghanistan. Page 43/44
670 US Hercs manage to fly with foam OK. I think MoD are desperately clutching at straws.
Have a look at this regarding missile threat in 2001/2 in Afghanistan. Page 43/44
670 US Hercs manage to fly with foam OK. I think MoD are desperately clutching at straws.
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Sub,
I believe we may be approaching a crisis point. And I have to say it was entirely predictable. I warned the Defence Com that this was likely to happen.
More Questions
79
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what his definition is of a defensive aids suite, with particular reference to the A400m.
(64792)
80
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how long it takes to switch a defensive aids suite between A400m airframes; and what the cost is.
(64827)
81
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what recent assessment he has made of the value of the IRCM ALQ 157 as a defensive aids suite; and if he will make a statement.
(64828
I believe we may be approaching a crisis point. And I have to say it was entirely predictable. I warned the Defence Com that this was likely to happen.
More Questions
79
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what his definition is of a defensive aids suite, with particular reference to the A400m.
(64792)
80
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how long it takes to switch a defensive aids suite between A400m airframes; and what the cost is.
(64827)
81
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what recent assessment he has made of the value of the IRCM ALQ 157 as a defensive aids suite; and if he will make a statement.
(64828
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final push
after a sleepless night wondering about these comments and the impact of the mod i've decided to still go ahead with what's happening. the mod are trying their best to scare me off. they would have me think that foam in the wings of hercs is not as desired as it has been made out. i need to hear from anyone who deals with the wonderful alberts what their views are. if you're a pilot or GE or anything please let me know your thoughts. i really appreciate all those comments that have been given already. i mean all those across the spectrum. it is important to have real honesty and there are always two sides to a coin as it where! i'm a lone voice in the public, i don't have the expertise that is required i need as much information as i can get. if we all join together we shall get heard. the media are getting a little carried away and i'm supposed to go onto a live news programme tonight but i felt like i was going to be used as live bait, literally! i'm a nurse not a pilot/engineer and i'm mindful of that. please help
while i'm in the begging mood. please help me with the next task. i know it's
cheeky of me but this is for all those families that are left behind. yet again i understand and respect that there are some of you who disagree with this but if any of you do agree lend me your help. next week i will be going to house of commons and i will be meeting with other military families and MP's . we are calling for blair to meet with the bereaved families of those personnel that died in iraq. there is a petition on the website www.mfaw.org.uk please help and put your signatures down. we will be delivering the petition on the same day after we have gone to the cenotaph to lay flowers. we will be holding a silence the traffic will be at a standstill. if any of you wish to come or would like to drop a line to your MP to help us add pressure. if any of you know a military family who have been affected in this way and would like to come please PM me and i will get in contact. it's a terrible thing to have that knock on the door or to turn on the news to find out what's happenend to your loved ones. it's only made worse when you are left feeling like your own government wish you'd go away back to obscurity quietly as if you are something to be ashamed of. please help me to change that......thankyou.
while i'm in the begging mood. please help me with the next task. i know it's
cheeky of me but this is for all those families that are left behind. yet again i understand and respect that there are some of you who disagree with this but if any of you do agree lend me your help. next week i will be going to house of commons and i will be meeting with other military families and MP's . we are calling for blair to meet with the bereaved families of those personnel that died in iraq. there is a petition on the website www.mfaw.org.uk please help and put your signatures down. we will be delivering the petition on the same day after we have gone to the cenotaph to lay flowers. we will be holding a silence the traffic will be at a standstill. if any of you wish to come or would like to drop a line to your MP to help us add pressure. if any of you know a military family who have been affected in this way and would like to come please PM me and i will get in contact. it's a terrible thing to have that knock on the door or to turn on the news to find out what's happenend to your loved ones. it's only made worse when you are left feeling like your own government wish you'd go away back to obscurity quietly as if you are something to be ashamed of. please help me to change that......thankyou.
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FF, I started off throwing one ball but I am astounded by some of the things going on. It is clear that an urgent review of safety is required. I will push for it as hard as I can.
I am also mindful of the Mighty Hunter.
I am also mindful of the Mighty Hunter.
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[quote=nigegilb],
Whoever told the AOC that we could comfortably deal with Afg/Iraq and a major mod program was either an eternal optimist or a fool on a rather large career push.
[quote]
my understanding is that the foam would be fitted to the aircraft as they go through the next minor servicing, as opposed to taking them out of service for a dedicated mod program.
Whoever told the AOC that we could comfortably deal with Afg/Iraq and a major mod program was either an eternal optimist or a fool on a rather large career push.
[quote]
my understanding is that the foam would be fitted to the aircraft as they go through the next minor servicing, as opposed to taking them out of service for a dedicated mod program.
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Maybe I was a bit harsh in my assessment of the advice given to AOC. However, I do understand that it is a lengthy process to fit foam to the Hercules. I do not know in which order the aircraft are being fitted. Contrary to some of the opinions on this thread I understood that promises to fit foam would not necessarily materialise. I decided to do something about it. After the first article in Jan, the MoD party line was that foam was expensive, time consuming to fit and not really required. (lucky shot scenario). Soon after the second article it became clear that some of the K models were going to get foam. As the pressure increased so did the confirmed numbers of Ks. The contract to fit the J was only confirmed very recently and I still do not know the numbers. I am not sure all this was factored in when the AOC was told that Lyneham could cope with this new deployment. My argument is that the decision to fit foam to the Hercules should have been taken last year. I am sure that the planning process for the deployment to Afghanistan has taken many months. I am also sure that at no time was there a plan to send Herc crews to Afg with the protection of foam. I believe this is a mistake and I question the priority placed on safety. This is a narco-deployment to a country which has been virtually ignored for more than 3 years. (with the exception of Kabul). It may have been wiser for the Chiefs to have said no to the deployment, rested/trained the crews and fixed up the frames ready for a push to Afg at a later time. I understand that there is a shortage of frames and as a result I am concerned that safety will once again take a back seat due to the high levels of tasking. Every week that goes by is a week without foam. It is easy to say yes and much more difficult to say no. I just hope I am wrong about the decision to deploy Hercules into another theatre at this time.
If this narco-deployment is so important, could one of our NATO partners not have stepped forward to help out? Or is there another agenda here?
If this narco-deployment is so important, could one of our NATO partners not have stepped forward to help out? Or is there another agenda here?
Last edited by nigegilb; 20th Apr 2006 at 17:53.
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RAF denies responsibility
Had word today that the RAF is saying that it did not realise the Hercules was vulnerable to small arms fire, and did not understand the need for foam. I have also been told that a presentation was made to key RAF players, showing the effects of small arms fire on an unprotected fuel tank. This occurred before the Afg conflict. The presentation included a full costing. It appears nothing was staffed. It is still the responsibility of the RAF. It is not good enough to plead ignorance. Denial of responsibility is something that comes easily to politicians but I am surprised the RAF is now trying the same line.
I know that successive USAF pilots on exchange to the Hercules tried their best to convince the RAF to fit foam. I wonder how they feel now.
I know that successive USAF pilots on exchange to the Hercules tried their best to convince the RAF to fit foam. I wonder how they feel now.
Last edited by nigegilb; 21st Apr 2006 at 22:52.