Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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hello one and all.
thank you sooo much for the support and kind words over what has been a very difficult but worthwhile time. i still feel terrible about how all consuming things became and how it ultimately cost me my ability to continue to carry on helping with the campaign and the quest for better safety for all of you who are still left to risk your lives thanks to the penny pinching and very short sighted gutless ways of our poor excuse of a government and MoD. I still want to and plan to continue to fught for the truth and what is right and well over due. it may take me some time to get up to speed to where i was and what i can do. there are days where i am unable to figure out what the actual day is, what my name is all thanks to brain fog! the fighting spirit is still there. i only hope i can contributee in a worthwhile way. i was particularly fired up after i read a message from an individual who had been on the herc that blew up last may in helamnd and just how bloody close it was that they did not lose their life that day.
katie and i endured 3 weeks in hospital and have only been home for a week so i still struggling and not totally recovered but that will not deter me. when i look at my new born daughter i see a litle girl who will not get to share the experience of having a loving uncle love her and protect her because he along with nine other fine men were robbed of their lives due to a lack of a standard feature, an unspoken right to have their safety/lives protected as they continued to help others around the world have the right to live their lives as safely as they can.
watch out browne, watch out ingram the bitch is back ad this time i'm armed with hormones.
thank you sooo much for the support and kind words over what has been a very difficult but worthwhile time. i still feel terrible about how all consuming things became and how it ultimately cost me my ability to continue to carry on helping with the campaign and the quest for better safety for all of you who are still left to risk your lives thanks to the penny pinching and very short sighted gutless ways of our poor excuse of a government and MoD. I still want to and plan to continue to fught for the truth and what is right and well over due. it may take me some time to get up to speed to where i was and what i can do. there are days where i am unable to figure out what the actual day is, what my name is all thanks to brain fog! the fighting spirit is still there. i only hope i can contributee in a worthwhile way. i was particularly fired up after i read a message from an individual who had been on the herc that blew up last may in helamnd and just how bloody close it was that they did not lose their life that day.
katie and i endured 3 weeks in hospital and have only been home for a week so i still struggling and not totally recovered but that will not deter me. when i look at my new born daughter i see a litle girl who will not get to share the experience of having a loving uncle love her and protect her because he along with nine other fine men were robbed of their lives due to a lack of a standard feature, an unspoken right to have their safety/lives protected as they continued to help others around the world have the right to live their lives as safely as they can.
watch out browne, watch out ingram the bitch is back ad this time i'm armed with hormones.
Hi Chappie. It's good to hear from you again, and to know that you and little Katie are back home. As you will have noticed things have become a little quiet around here, so a rallying call from time to time, such as yours, is needed to get us back at the top. How about a progress report Nige? With the interregnum period we are in now I suspect everything is on hold, and when the coronation is past I cannot see Gordo dishing out the largess to the likes of us. So the battle is still on and we will be looking to you and your army of hormones big time Chappie, so keep up the training regime and come out fighting fit again!
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Chappie may I pass on my heartfelt congratulations on the birth of you baby daughter. The good news, is that you can sit back and enjoy your time together without having to worry too much about the Herc fleet. The foam program is scheduled to be complete by November. Sadly, there does not appear to be a way of accelerating this process without affecting operations. Which, clearly shows that operations always have the greatest pull over safety, but I think we all knew that.
I have been fairly quiet of late. The on going investigation concerning the Inquest continues at a pace. I am absolutely convinced by its thoroughness and that we will get a true picture of events running back through the years as to why XV179 did not have foam in the tanks on that day. Unfortunately, the investigation will take several months. The chief investigator has interviewed many current and ex Herc aircrew and groundcrew, including myself. If anyone has info for him, please PM me and I will forward his contact details. I wrote an article for the local paper here a few weeks ago. Lord King used part of the article in an opening speech in a House of Lords debate. Interestingly, the BoI for XV206 is still not out, even though it was supposed to have been completed after 6 months. The cynic in me suggests that it will not be released until all the operational Hercs have foam on board. I remain convinced that it was a fuel tank explosion.
This is the personal account that Chappie referred to of a pax escaping that attack.
"There but for the grace of God go I. I was a passenger on the C130 that crashed/blew up in Helmand, Afghanistan, last May. I shudder to think of how it would have affected my family if I had perished.
We got out by the skin of our teeth, I got out the crew door in front of the wing that was in flames. It was so hot, I couldn't even look directly at the wing as I jumped down.
I owe my life to the crew and the speed with which they got us off the plane. I hope their actions are properly credited in the BOI when it is published (any day now?). I don't know what it will say about ESF in our case. I know that John Reid said something about it not having been relevent. But I suspect the foam would have delayed the fire, giving us more time to get off, and perhaps the opportunity to save some kit as well. But more seriously what if the crew's reactions had been just a little slower, or anyone had needed carrying off????"
The crew played an extraordinary role in that incident.
Video of the "J" being hit on a strip in Iraq is doing the rounds. I haven't seen the attack, but I do know how close the people on board came to losing their lives. I have passed on my concerns to the Defence Committee, such is the sensitivity of that attack, I haven't been able to use a more public angle. I do hope though, that at the very least, the Loadmaster will get added protection in the para door.
Finally I received this PQ the other day. It appears that the IPT is responsible for the mess that is the "K" program. I wonder how they feel about that.
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence who in his Department was responsible for (a) writing the specification for the fitting of explosive suppressant foam to UK Hercules aircraft and (b) liaising between the contractors to ensure the most efficient working practices; and if he will make a statement. [135072]
Mr. Ingram: The Hercules integrated project team (IPT): part of defence equipment and support, in conjunction with Air Command and the equipment capability customer, was responsible for writing the specification for fitting explosion suppressant foam to the RAF's Hercules aircraft. The Hercules IPT is responsible for ensuring that the contract specifications are completed within the agreed timeframe.
I have been fairly quiet of late. The on going investigation concerning the Inquest continues at a pace. I am absolutely convinced by its thoroughness and that we will get a true picture of events running back through the years as to why XV179 did not have foam in the tanks on that day. Unfortunately, the investigation will take several months. The chief investigator has interviewed many current and ex Herc aircrew and groundcrew, including myself. If anyone has info for him, please PM me and I will forward his contact details. I wrote an article for the local paper here a few weeks ago. Lord King used part of the article in an opening speech in a House of Lords debate. Interestingly, the BoI for XV206 is still not out, even though it was supposed to have been completed after 6 months. The cynic in me suggests that it will not be released until all the operational Hercs have foam on board. I remain convinced that it was a fuel tank explosion.
This is the personal account that Chappie referred to of a pax escaping that attack.
"There but for the grace of God go I. I was a passenger on the C130 that crashed/blew up in Helmand, Afghanistan, last May. I shudder to think of how it would have affected my family if I had perished.
We got out by the skin of our teeth, I got out the crew door in front of the wing that was in flames. It was so hot, I couldn't even look directly at the wing as I jumped down.
I owe my life to the crew and the speed with which they got us off the plane. I hope their actions are properly credited in the BOI when it is published (any day now?). I don't know what it will say about ESF in our case. I know that John Reid said something about it not having been relevent. But I suspect the foam would have delayed the fire, giving us more time to get off, and perhaps the opportunity to save some kit as well. But more seriously what if the crew's reactions had been just a little slower, or anyone had needed carrying off????"
The crew played an extraordinary role in that incident.
Video of the "J" being hit on a strip in Iraq is doing the rounds. I haven't seen the attack, but I do know how close the people on board came to losing their lives. I have passed on my concerns to the Defence Committee, such is the sensitivity of that attack, I haven't been able to use a more public angle. I do hope though, that at the very least, the Loadmaster will get added protection in the para door.
Finally I received this PQ the other day. It appears that the IPT is responsible for the mess that is the "K" program. I wonder how they feel about that.
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence who in his Department was responsible for (a) writing the specification for the fitting of explosive suppressant foam to UK Hercules aircraft and (b) liaising between the contractors to ensure the most efficient working practices; and if he will make a statement. [135072]
Mr. Ingram: The Hercules integrated project team (IPT): part of defence equipment and support, in conjunction with Air Command and the equipment capability customer, was responsible for writing the specification for fitting explosion suppressant foam to the RAF's Hercules aircraft. The Hercules IPT is responsible for ensuring that the contract specifications are completed within the agreed timeframe.
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Just as I say things have been quiet, I receive more PQs. These answers are rather funny, in an incompetent sort of way. The reason the ac are not flown after the first sealant process is completed is due to the urgency of the program. I assume the Minister knows that every single "K" has had to be returned to Marshall's, I do wonder if he has a brain sometimes. Any engineers out there with a bit of knowledge, care to comment?
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 21 March 2007, Official Report, column 925W, on Hercules aircraft, if he will take steps to ensure that Hercules aircraft being fitted with explosive suppressant foam are flown to flex the wings after the sealant is applied but before the foam is put in place. [136695]
Mr. Ingram: The replacement of the fuel tank sealant is only undertaken on the Hercules C-130K aircraft. Flying the aircraft between fuel tank sealant replacement and fitting Explosion Suppressant Foam (ESF) would introduce unacceptable delays to this urgent programme. Therefore, quality assurance processes are used to ensure that it is not necessary to fly the Hercules C-130K aircraft after the fuel tank sealant has been replaced but before ESF is fitted.
17 May 2007 : Column 845W
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to his answer of 21 March 2007, Official Report, column 925W, on Hercules aircraft, how long it has taken for each Hercules aircraft being fitted with explosive suppressant foam to return to active service; and if he will make a statement. [136696]
Mr. Ingram: The Hercules C-130K Explosion Suppressant Foam (ESF) modification takes approximately 44 days per aircraft to complete. The less complex Hercules C-130J modification takes approximately 16 days. The difference in time scale between the two marks of aircraft is due to the need to replace the fuel tank sealant on the older C-130K. In order to improve overall aircraft availability to the front line command, the ESF modification has been combined with scheduled maintenance wherever possible.
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 21 March 2007, Official Report, column 925W, on Hercules aircraft, if he will take steps to ensure that Hercules aircraft being fitted with explosive suppressant foam are flown to flex the wings after the sealant is applied but before the foam is put in place. [136695]
Mr. Ingram: The replacement of the fuel tank sealant is only undertaken on the Hercules C-130K aircraft. Flying the aircraft between fuel tank sealant replacement and fitting Explosion Suppressant Foam (ESF) would introduce unacceptable delays to this urgent programme. Therefore, quality assurance processes are used to ensure that it is not necessary to fly the Hercules C-130K aircraft after the fuel tank sealant has been replaced but before ESF is fitted.
17 May 2007 : Column 845W
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to his answer of 21 March 2007, Official Report, column 925W, on Hercules aircraft, how long it has taken for each Hercules aircraft being fitted with explosive suppressant foam to return to active service; and if he will make a statement. [136696]
Mr. Ingram: The Hercules C-130K Explosion Suppressant Foam (ESF) modification takes approximately 44 days per aircraft to complete. The less complex Hercules C-130J modification takes approximately 16 days. The difference in time scale between the two marks of aircraft is due to the need to replace the fuel tank sealant on the older C-130K. In order to improve overall aircraft availability to the front line command, the ESF modification has been combined with scheduled maintenance wherever possible.
Last edited by nigegilb; 21st May 2007 at 10:26.
I'm no engineer, but it would seem to me that MOD had the same choice that every car owner has to make. You can get it serviced to the manufacturer's specification at a properly accredited garage using propriety parts, or insist they do it in a different and quicker manner which will save on labour and get it back by tea time, or you can go to a bloke on the industrial estate who will do it cheaper still, using "generic" parts and get paid in cash. Which of these three options for the K ESF fit was chosen is a moot point, but I have a high incidence of suspicion that it was not the first!
At #1306, discussing deliberate waste of money, I said,
"Over the years, I made a point of having this renewed at every regime change / reorganisation (i.e. MoD(PE), AMSO, AML, DPA, DLO) so they couldn't argue "Ah, but that was in the past". Not that I really needed to, as the facts (and numerous auditors reports) speak for themselves. I wonder if DE&S will follow suite? It's in hand".
DE&S replied. (A notable event in itself). Confirmed that all I said still stands.
"Over the years, I made a point of having this renewed at every regime change / reorganisation (i.e. MoD(PE), AMSO, AML, DPA, DLO) so they couldn't argue "Ah, but that was in the past". Not that I really needed to, as the facts (and numerous auditors reports) speak for themselves. I wonder if DE&S will follow suite? It's in hand".
DE&S replied. (A notable event in itself). Confirmed that all I said still stands.
Tuc, the more you reveal of how my taxes are knowingly misspent in the corridors of power, the more I am convinced that they would be better spent by the armed forces directly dealing with industry, though subject of course to stringent audit. I feel that the numbers we buy in, in these days of shrunken forces with shrunken budgets, mean that any savings due to programme management by specialist staffs is more than consumed by the costs of those staffs, let alone the costs of their repeated blunders. Do you have a solution, or are you content with the growing civilianisation in our defence budget? This may be going off thread, but what is the point of Nige getting their Airships to finally drink the water on offer, only to have it pixxed out again with little effect (literally with the K's!), and at great cost (if you catch my tortured and mixed metaphor!). It is scandalous that this urgent and life saving programme is being carried out in such an indolent fashion, and underlines my firm belief that public enterprise under this government is uniformly dysfunctional, with the honourable exception of the Armed Forces themselves. Very disheartening indeed!
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Thanks very much for the PMs regarding foam, rest assured Ingram is not getting away with those answers. Further request to anyone in the know with the A400M program. A year ago I was told that all RAF A400M ac would be getting a full DAS and fuel tank protection. I have heard in recent days that this is no longer the case and that finance has been approved for less than a handful.
Any more info would be greatly appreciated.
NG
Any more info would be greatly appreciated.
NG
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i have contacts who might be able to help. i will endeavour to get in contact and try and find out then let you know. the month of may has passed and still we wait for the second pre inquest, let alone the inquest. when will this stop? why is it sooo hard to find out what happened to my brother? i still feel like a useless bint as i have not achieved getting the entire fleet protected and now have to stand back powerless. i mean what i said previously and that i will strap the baby to my back and go anywhere and do anything to get this sorted, and you all protected. this cannot happen again. while there are planes unprotected the lottery on your lives continues. there is no way that this is acceptable. cost is irrelevant when you compare it to the cost of the loss of a life, in so many ways. leave it with me and i will get back to you...i promise..now for a word with a newborn!
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Nige,
I had also heard that! Furthermore, funding has been secured only for 'fitting for' but not 'fitting with'.
Although, I am led to believe the latter is their airships final aim, funding is still tight. Keep up the pressure on HMG!
Flip
Chappie,
I can assure you the coroner's people are working flat out to get as much info as possible. I suspect this will take a while but I believe that a comprehensive, wide-ranging and carefully-built investigtion, is the only answer.
I had also heard that! Furthermore, funding has been secured only for 'fitting for' but not 'fitting with'.
Although, I am led to believe the latter is their airships final aim, funding is still tight. Keep up the pressure on HMG!
Flip
Chappie,
I can assure you the coroner's people are working flat out to get as much info as possible. I suspect this will take a while but I believe that a comprehensive, wide-ranging and carefully-built investigtion, is the only answer.
Last edited by flipster; 28th May 2007 at 07:58.
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Flip,
I am not sure what the powers that be are intending to do with the A400M, but I understand you are quite correct. The A400M will come fitted for OBIGGS, but the RAF will have to fit additional equipment if it wants fuel tank protection. I presume that this means the wings will not have to be removed if the RAF decides that fuel tank protection might be a gtood idea at a later stage?
I am assuming "less than handful of ac" must refer to the fitting of a DAS. Furthermore, as a cost cutting exercise, there will only be one sim instead of 2, requiring some sim training to be done in the aircraft! If we are down to this level of cost cutting stupidity, then I have serious concerns about the level of self-protection on this aircraft.
It is not as if we have lost 3 Hercs to enemy action in recent times is it?
I am not sure what the powers that be are intending to do with the A400M, but I understand you are quite correct. The A400M will come fitted for OBIGGS, but the RAF will have to fit additional equipment if it wants fuel tank protection. I presume that this means the wings will not have to be removed if the RAF decides that fuel tank protection might be a gtood idea at a later stage?
I am assuming "less than handful of ac" must refer to the fitting of a DAS. Furthermore, as a cost cutting exercise, there will only be one sim instead of 2, requiring some sim training to be done in the aircraft! If we are down to this level of cost cutting stupidity, then I have serious concerns about the level of self-protection on this aircraft.
It is not as if we have lost 3 Hercs to enemy action in recent times is it?
“funding is still tight”
We must remember that this doesn’t necessarily mean there is not enough funding for the actual requirement. Funding can be “tight” because what they have has been wasted.
Which reminds me of the time funding was committed by a certain Gp Capt to procure equipment to integrate with the C130’s ACTIVE DIPPING SONAR. (Just how does a C130 transition to hover?). Upside – the company flatly refused to quote when told what a/c it was for, so the kit wasn’t bought (at least not in my time). Downside – he argued so long that it became too late to spend the money in that FY on something sensible. That is, it was wasted.
But hey, what do I know? He was senior, and therefore right; a long standing principle, upheld, in writing, by CDP and Ministers.
We must remember that this doesn’t necessarily mean there is not enough funding for the actual requirement. Funding can be “tight” because what they have has been wasted.
Which reminds me of the time funding was committed by a certain Gp Capt to procure equipment to integrate with the C130’s ACTIVE DIPPING SONAR. (Just how does a C130 transition to hover?). Upside – the company flatly refused to quote when told what a/c it was for, so the kit wasn’t bought (at least not in my time). Downside – he argued so long that it became too late to spend the money in that FY on something sensible. That is, it was wasted.
But hey, what do I know? He was senior, and therefore right; a long standing principle, upheld, in writing, by CDP and Ministers.
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Tuc
If what you are saying, more than once, about the huge waste of money at DLO/DPA (or whatever it is called these days), is true, then the procurement system really is completely FUBAH (ie F.....d Up Beyond All Hope)!
Why not write to the Parliamentary Defence Committee with pertinent examples and apposite questions ? These people seem to be on the ball and something good might come of it.
PM me for addresses.
Flip
If what you are saying, more than once, about the huge waste of money at DLO/DPA (or whatever it is called these days), is true, then the procurement system really is completely FUBAH (ie F.....d Up Beyond All Hope)!
Why not write to the Parliamentary Defence Committee with pertinent examples and apposite questions ? These people seem to be on the ball and something good might come of it.
PM me for addresses.
Flip
flip
“If what you are saying, more than once, about the huge waste of money at DLO/DPA (or whatever it is called these days), is true, then the procurement system really is completely FUBAH (ie F.....d Up Beyond All Hope)!”
It’s true, I’m afraid. The MoD’s own internal auditor agrees, in addition to the NAO etc.
”Why not write to the Parliamentary Defence Committee with pertinent examples and apposite questions ? These people seem to be on the ball and something good might come of it”.
Been there……. Submitted in time for last years “Defence Committee Inquiry Into Defence Equipment Projects”. Not interested.
“If what you are saying, more than once, about the huge waste of money at DLO/DPA (or whatever it is called these days), is true, then the procurement system really is completely FUBAH (ie F.....d Up Beyond All Hope)!”
It’s true, I’m afraid. The MoD’s own internal auditor agrees, in addition to the NAO etc.
”Why not write to the Parliamentary Defence Committee with pertinent examples and apposite questions ? These people seem to be on the ball and something good might come of it”.
Been there……. Submitted in time for last years “Defence Committee Inquiry Into Defence Equipment Projects”. Not interested.
Why not write to the Parliamentary Defence Committee with pertinent examples and apposite questions ? These people seem to be on the ball and something good might come of it”.
Been there……. Submitted in time for last years “Defence Committee Inquiry Into Defence Equipment Projects”. Not interested.
Been there……. Submitted in time for last years “Defence Committee Inquiry Into Defence Equipment Projects”. Not interested.
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it's true there is no one except the people it shouldn't have to burden that care and can and will or should i say have made a difference....us. last year i stood in the houses of parliament and when i had the oppurtunity to lobby mp's i stood there and in front of these chinless wonders broke down, because the reality of grief and it's ugliness was something they ended up seeing as undignifying as it might have been. i stood there with all of them looking at me and i said evey last crew members name that lost his life on jan 30th. i wanted their names to be said in the walls of the houses of parliament. i told the suits what you guys face every day and asked for support and asked why this was happening and look at where we are. thanks to the efforts of some special guys, nige, flip airsound all of you you know who you are marshalls is full of hercs but sadly not all the fleet. isn't it a travesty that ten men had to die for foam to be fitted. isn't it a travesty all that we have had to do instead of being able to rely on the powers that be to sort the problem...and surely by fitting the foam is tantamount to an admission that foam might of saved them and clearly has a place in the needs of hercules in todays threat environment.
i'm sorry that i have lost it and given into a rant. i guess i feel pretty useless and frustrated at my inability to sort this out or to help in some way. i remember how it felt to see them squirm in their seats so i guess that's something. guilty minds eh?! i guess that i have to sit back and sit and wait for the pre inquest and inquest to get some more answers. like many though i am sick of waiting. how much longer do we have to endure this open book, this lack of answers? no doubt i'll calm down after i've pressed send!
i'm sorry that i have lost it and given into a rant. i guess i feel pretty useless and frustrated at my inability to sort this out or to help in some way. i remember how it felt to see them squirm in their seats so i guess that's something. guilty minds eh?! i guess that i have to sit back and sit and wait for the pre inquest and inquest to get some more answers. like many though i am sick of waiting. how much longer do we have to endure this open book, this lack of answers? no doubt i'll calm down after i've pressed send!
Chappie, never think for one second that you have done anything other than to be a very essential part of the team that has been instrumental in correcting the glaring shortcomings in the RAF AT fleet's basic (and you can't get much more basic than ESF) safety fit. Not the MOD, not the RAF, but you and the bunch of suspicious characters that you mention plus AN others. I say this as an interested late comer to this campaign. You should all be damn proud of what you have achieved. If it is not unprecedented it must be the closest thing to it. When the last K is rolled out bone dry, the last J returned to service, I for one will toast you all, in particular you Chappie and the tenacious courage you have displayed to all, especially the high and mighty, and you Nige, without whose leadership the campaign would surely have foundered. That is your legacy, and a damn sight more creditable than you know whose!
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Some of you may have already picked up on this, but there's more movement on enhancing the C-130J's self-protection:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ancements.html
The unit costs look a bit more reasonable this time!
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ancements.html
The unit costs look a bit more reasonable this time!
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The vast majority of the J Fleet will end up with foam in the fuel tanks and one of the most modern DAS's in production. A far cry from where we were in January last year, when the J was not even being considered for fuel tank protection, never mind a decent DAS. Even had a phone call from the RAF to confirm that.
Pity the J that was IED'd in Iraq did not have foam. If anyone saw the video posted on the internet you could clearly see the damage to the outer wing.
Just hope the RAF and MOD see sense over Nimrod safety issues.
Pity the J that was IED'd in Iraq did not have foam. If anyone saw the video posted on the internet you could clearly see the damage to the outer wing.
Just hope the RAF and MOD see sense over Nimrod safety issues.