British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

[Ava Hannah]

Again, here we go with the BASSA 'It's personal' nonsense. It's not! Is it really so hard for you to see that this isn't Willie Walsh doing this on a whim, this is the whole Leadership Team and the board of directors doing this? And changing the leader won't change the policy; believing that it is is BASSAs comfort blanket of denial, so that they don't have to look outside into the big bad world and realise they do have to change.

Is it not personal? Is management not after us? They placed a wall at Waterside and allowed anyone to write whatever they wanted on it. What actions, except that they removed the wall a couple of days later, were taken?

Management has been bloating to the media with heavily exaggerated figures on our salaries and compared us to Virgin Atlantic and mistakingly forgot, I should imagine (?), to include their allowances which are paid downroute. They have compared our salaries to those of LCCs when we are a premium airline with a different clientele.

I think management is aiming for us. It is very rich of WW to mention our salaries considering he's making almost £800000 a year. He's making more money than the President of the United States.

I'm also interested in learning how the present CEO is damaging our brand? Apart from the T5 debacle from which BA have now recovered, we have better punctuality than ever and a reasonably good ground experience. Our safety record remains solid. The only damage thats occuring to the brand is through the variable onboard service (who's responsible for that?) and the long history or strikes in BA (hmm, who's responsible for that one too, and has been since before WW even joined the company?). You cannot blame Willie for your unions failings

He has refused to take responsibility for the price fixings. He has failed to increase the share value to the company's shareholders. He has managed to turn the entire company against us cabin crew. He has completely ruined CRM. That is something which will take years to recover.

We are responsible for the onboard service but we can only deal with what we have. If the company decides to make changes, and we have seen some great changes since WW took over, what are we supposed to do? We are not the only ones who have been threatening to go on strike over the years. The pilots threatened to take industrial action not too long ago.

[Wirbelsturm]

What are you suggesting? That everyone who have backed BA are holding them ransom? Staff Travel may be a non-contractual benefit but that's no reason for them to remove it for participating in a lawful industrial action. It's punishment. It's vindictive. It's discriminatory. As much as I would love to see the case appear in the European Courts and Willie Walsh being humiliated publicly over his mistake, I cannot wait years until it appears in court. I think I have earned it as everyone else in this company.

Unfortunately, as BASSA will have adequately informed you prior to making your strike decision, the employment laws protect you for taking industrial action ONLY against unfair dismissal. If the company removed or restricted access to contractual faculties then you would have a case.

As ST is not contractual and is a perk it cannot be victimisation. If the case is as dramatic as you make out then surely Unite or BASSA would have had it up in court by now? No? Wonder why.

If it is so important to you personally then I would suggest that supporting the ill advised action (ill advised even by Unite!) should have been thought through a little better.

As to the pensions negotiations, I have been informed that ALL departments apart from the Cabin Crew were balloted for their opinions over the pensions changes. The Unite CC members were 'overlooked'. So it seems that imposition comes not only from the company for the CC but also their own Union.

BASSA portray BA as being the big, bad non negotiator. Where were the illustrious BASSA team when the time for negotiations were upon us? Outside in the car park brawling or crying at the feet of the Unite council trying to have their peers thrown out for trying to do a deal for their members.

There are NO guarantees in life, no permanent agreements, in any company the 'guarantees' only reach to the next review. The skill in maintaining an acceptable level of terms and conditions is effective negotiation. Something that BASSA have never, ever achieved.

Because you are doing no good to this company, or your own career, by allowing yourself to support a management which is training people to cover a lawful industrial action.

The problem here is that the vast majority of other employees do not see this as legitimate industrial action. Lawful in the eyes of the employment laws maybe, legitimate? Certainly not. BASSA refused point blank to accept the companies position when ALL other departments could see and accept it. If the company had been raking money in as BASSA wished it to be so then the support for IA might have been different. The company wasn't and isn't. The CC have enjoyed elevated T's & C's for too many years now and demanded that other departments make the savings. Now your time has come and everyone else is in the wrong except BASSA.

Management has been bloating to the media with heavily exaggerated figures on our salaries and compared us to Virgin Atlantic and mistakingly forgot, I should imagine (?), to include their allowances which are paid downroute. They have compared our salaries to those of LCCs when we are a premium airline with a different clientele.

The original figures came from the CAA, not the management. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

I hope you enjoy your commute.

[Hotel Mode]

Management has been bloating to the media with heavily exaggerated figures on our salaries and compared us to Virgin Atlantic and mistakingly forgot, I should imagine (?), to include their allowances which are paid downroute.

No, he quoted the accurate figures. Not the Cabin crews version that are generally quoted after tax, after crew card or directly from a P60 that doesnt include non taxable allowances.

The numbers quoted were brought up in court so can be assumed to be accurate.

He has refused to take responsibility for the price fixings.

You mean the ones that had nothing to do with him as they happened before he joined BA?

He has managed to turn the entire company against us cabin crew.

No BASSA and its members behaviour did that. The idiots at the strike result meeting screaming with joy, 12 days of Christmas, the facebook bullying, threatening kidnap, the baying mob outside the Arora, the lies about engineering/flight crew, I'd rather **** a loader than a scab etc etc. You've all made yourselves look like a bunch of spoilt 3 year olds.

He has completely ruined CRM.

I dont think many BA cabin crew have the first idea what CRM actually is. Most think its about pilots being nice to them. Crew relations at BA have always been a bit dodgy. The strikes made it pretty clear who was causing the problem and hopefully WW has a plan for their removal from the business.

[3Greens]

Ava

i put it to you that your views on how a bluechip footsie100 company works are wrong and your understandin, at best, flawed.

Take your comment about willie being unable to increase the share price; for one the CEO doesn't just decide on a whim to increase it, it is the INVESTORS that will increase the SP by buying shares. They will only do this if they see a potential to make money from a lean, efficient PROFITABLE company going forward...do you see the irony there???

you also contradict yourself on a couple of points...you state that you shouldn't be compared to other airlines such as LOCOs', i'm not sure why you think because the product is a premium one that you should be paid more? If they are our competitors on certan routes it hardly matters what the cabin service is does it? And actually LOCO cabin crew work for the entire duration of shorthaul flights; after they have passed thru the cabin they then go on to sell scrathcards and the like.
your comment about willies pay and the US president is a strange one which is hardly worthy of comment except to say that i suggest you revisit benchmarking and take a look at other footsie100 companies CEO pay. You will find that Willie is benchmarked well, perhaps even paid too little?

Please tell me how Willie has "destroyed CRM"? If you mean because pilots like myself have worked in the cabin during the strike, then it shows how little you understand about CRM. CRM is not about socialising or being nice to pilots. I suggest you read up on the subject on your next commute home to Joburg.

[Ava Hannah]

Your problem Ava, is that by striking, you relied on the Bassa statement being true that they could regain ST with seniority. By being effectively unable to work unless you regain ST you are committed to an 'all or nothing' stance. Not a great place to be in when many of even your Bassa supporting colleagues are happy to achieve a solution on the BA proposal (with much tweaking) and are happy to wait for the courts to decide on the reinstatement of staff travel.

You must be worried.

We have not seen the end of the dispute yet. Many will not accept a proposal that doesn't include reinstatement of our staff travel concessions. Some have the time to wait for years until it appears in court but surprisingly many commuters went on strike and they will not give in. We also have a lot of support from non-commuters and we only need a majority to have the proposal declined.

I think I'm being reasonable. Return my staff travel and remove the no strike clause from the current proposal and I might accept it. What makes them think that crew would accept to sign a no strike clause?

This is just Bassa wishful thinking and a simplistic view of the situation. Bassa (and yourself it seems) believe that Willie Walsh is out on a limb on this, alone and isolated from his employees, leadership team colleagues and fellow Board members, and all it takes is for a big yes vote to finally oust him, KW will be the moderate who comes to an agreement (giving in to all Bassa demands0, the company will then continue as before.

It's simply not going to happen.

Willie Walsh is leaving his post shortly anyway. I don't believe that a big yes vote will make him leave any earlier. BASSA say Keith Williams showed to be reasonable in previous negotiations with Unite and they are convinced they could reach a good settlement with him. Reassuring as that might be I think he's a better candidate than Willie Walsh.

[R2D2-LHR]

Hotel Mode

He has completely ruined CRM. I dont think many BA cabin crew have the first idea what CRM actually is. Most think its about pilots being nice to them.

I think that is a sweeping statement, the majority of CC backing BA do their upmost to continue with great CRM, the minority of the BASSAmentalists are the ones bringing the bad rep.

However I agree with everything else you have said thus far!!

[MrBunker]

Originally Posted by Ava Hannah

I find it morally wrong to punish long serving staff for taking industrial action, which is a democratic right, and especially by a CEO who has only been here for a few years and himself being responsible for severe damage to our brand.

Ava,

2 points, if I may.

1) It's not a democratic right in the UK. The protections afforded are afforded to the union, not the individual members. BA, could, if they wished, sue each individual for the consequences of the action taken thus far, let alone that which is yet to come.

2) On this, I fear, you let yourself down. You seek to personalise the argument against one individual. It's been rehashed a number of times on here and elsewhere. "He" is not responsible for the price-fixing, nor, as you put it, the severe damage to the brand. Indeed, it seems, that those who have the greatest vested financial interest in the company are supportive of his actions. Can you, without emotion, point out to me, and others on here, where you think "he" (and I use the punctuation deliberately) is responsible for the destruction of the brand as you perceive it?

MrB

[nurjio]

Ava, hun, your arguments for the pro-BASSA stance have been dealt with over the last 12 months and found to be without foundation on all counts. It would appear that you have swallowed a great deal of the emotional rhetoric articulated by the Brance Secretary - a person whose judgement was such that his/her employer got rid - legally. The information peddled from union HQ has been proved beyond reasonable doubt to be economical with the truth in the extreme.

Before you proceed, and I admire your loyalty BTW, can I suggest you search for the court judgement, delivered late last year, by Sir Christoher Holland, and digest it. It sums up the history/ability of your union succintly. Then consider your trust of said union.

A great many people on this forum will destroy your arguments with ease. Can I be so bold as to suggest that you really look at BOTH sides to this dispute. Your employer's stance is a fairly reasonable one.

[MrBunker]

Originally Posted by Ava Hannah

He has refused to take responsibility for the price fixings. He has failed to increase the share value to the company's shareholders. He has managed to turn the entire company against us cabin crew. He has completely ruined CRM. That is something which will take years to recover.

Again, if I may.

No, he has no reason to take responsibility for the price fixing on two levels :-

1) He wasn't in position as the CEO when the alleged underhand dealings took place
2) The case has been dismissed from the courts.

As for CRM, I'd aver that that is merely a perception on your part as a person who felt that striking was the option you should take. There are many of us, both flight and cabin crew, who don't feel that CRM is mortally wounded in BA. Merely, and I hesitate marginally to say this, that there are a number who need to understand what CRM actually is.

MrB

[Timothy Claypole]

Is it not personal? Is management not after us?

No, it is not personal. Willie doesn't know who you are, I doubt he cares. He wants savings, and he's probably not really that bothered how you achieve them as long as they don't inhibit operational flexibility. It's BASSA that have made this about an individual

They placed a wall at Waterside and allowed anyone to write whatever they wanted on it. What actions, except that they removed the wall a couple of days later, were taken?

Another BASSA myth. They placed a wall alllowing people to say how they were backing BA. It wasn't there to allow people to write abuse on it, and nobody did. The orchestrated offence BASSA have taken is symptomatic of the hysterical herd mentality a proportion of crew like to promote in order to claim they are being bullied. A bit like wearing pink armbands at the AGM.

Management has been bloating to the media with heavily exaggerated figures on our salaries and compared us to Virgin Atlantic and mistakingly forgot, I should imagine (?), to include their allowances which are paid downroute. They have compared our salaries to those of LCCs when we are a premium airline with a different clientele.

Another BASSA myth - Virgins figures don't include their downroute allowances. Who pays those then? Somebody other than Virgin? Of course the CAAs figures contain Virgins allowances, they are total employee costs, not salaries. And remember, the pilots are quite happy to be compared to a premium carrier like Virgin.

I think management is aiming for us.

They are aiming for everyone. You're just the last one who won't negotiate, thereby singleing yourselves out.

It is very rich of WW to mention our salaries considering he's making almost £800000 a year. He's making more money than the President of the United States.

Utterly irrelevant, unless you think we should live in a communist state where everyone should be paid equally. If I wanted to be flippant I'd point out that Willie Walsh actually has more executive experience than Barak Obama!

He has refused to take responsibility for the price fixings. He has failed to increase the share value to the company's shareholders.

The price fixing allegations stem from before his tenure as CEO, and it appears there's is considerable legal debate as to whether it actually occurred anyway. BA still hasn't paid any fines and the case against the inviduals involved collapsed. And he hasn't increased the share value in the teeth ofthe worst economic downturn in a generation. He has managed to pay a dividen for the first time in a decade though, and has acheived a 10% margin for the first time in the companys history.

He has managed to turn the entire company against us cabin crew. He has completely ruined CRM. That is something which will take years to recover.

No dear, you did that yourself, by allowing your union to publish hysterical, anti-pilot polemics about sweetheart deals and protecting their own pensions, and rubbishing the engineers, the managers, LGW crew and anyone they felt like lashing out at. CRM is fine with the non-militant crew, I've flown with a great bunch during the strikes. If any strikers feel that they are so incensed that they cannot communicate with me on board I, and I'm sure most of my colleagues, will have no problem getting them replaced by someone who can. Their anger is their problem, not ours.

We are responsible for the onboard service but we can only deal with what we have. If the company decides to make changes, and we have seen some great changes since WW took over, what are we supposed to do?

Deal with it. Designing the service is neither yours, nor your unions responsibility. You are there to deliver what you are told as best you can.

We are not the only ones who have been threatening to go on strike over the years. The pilots threatened to take industrial action not too long ago.

Quite. At a time of maximum profitability for the company, and only after agreeing to match any cost base BA could achieve at Open Skies ourselves. I've yet to see BASSA offer to cost match anything!

[A4]

Management has been bloating to the media with heavily exaggerated figures on our salaries and compared us to Virgin Atlantic and mistakingly forgot, I should imagine (?), to include their allowances which are paid downroute. They have compared our salaries to those of LCCs when we are a premium airline with a different clientele.

Not relevant - you are still, ON AVERAGE, massively better remunerated for your service than your competitors. Yes LCC's do have different clientelle but more and more business people are using them for their European short hops in these times of austerity. BA may be "premium" - but it is now totally eclipsed by many of its competitors - a fact not realised by many CC and it would seem that the post industrial working atmosphere between striking and non striking CC is hardly going to enhance the customer experience.

I think management is aiming for us. It is very rich of WW to mention our salaries considering he's making almost £800000 a year. He's making more money than the President of the United States.

Not relevant. He's CEO of FTSE Company - what should he earn - £25000 a year? Hasn't he also given up his bonus for the last two years?

He has managed to turn the entire company against us cabin crew. He has completely ruined CRM. That is something which will take years to recover.

That one is priceless. BASSA is solely repsonsible for this. Think back to June last year and what was on the table - or didn't BASSA tell you? Your industrial action has not, and will not achieve your aims. BASSA just keep digging and digging.

We are responsible for the onboard service......

Yes correct. That's where your job descriptions ends. The fact that BASSA seems to think it has a direct say in the day to day running of the airline needs to be addressed.


BASSA has totally and utterly botched this IA since the outset. Refusal to negotiate (endorsed by a show of hands, no?), Union reps refusing to sit in the same room, failed court cases, not turning up to meetings, telling its members that ST would be returned (why aren't they hammering on the High Courts doors then?), ever increasing numbers of staff deserting "the cause" and returning to work.

It's over. If a ballot comes back with a vote for further IA I can see WW going nuclear with SOSR - his patience must be exhausted - why bother delaying the inevitable when all you ever hear is "No No No"?

A4

PS As for the hot towels.......... poor babies

[nurjio]

See what I mean Ava, it's brutal. And I mean that in the nicest possible way...and business is just as brutal - hence the stance taken against an intransigent union.

[ranger07]

AVA

Is it not personal? Is management not after us? They placed a wall at Waterside and allowed anyone to write whatever they wanted on it. What actions, except that they removed the wall a couple of days later, were taken?

I also heard one of your colleagues say the exact same thing on a radio phone in, and, may I state on here that it is totally INCORRECT the way you portray it.

I saw this board in Waterside. It invited comments as to 'why you Back BA'.
Most comments were innocuous along the lines ...'because I want to retire with a decent pension..and similar. Then some less desirable comments were posted..HENCE the board was removed.


AVA..thats it. I e-mailed the radio station in question stating this FACT in case any of your colleagues tried this one again.

He has managed to turn the entire company against us cabin crew

Again, untrue...total respect to the moderate majority

[nurjio]

What Mr Walsh has done is expose the BASSA regime to the rigours of scrutiny by everyone else in the land - and those that matter in all of this, aside from the diehards, are not daft. The union leadership has failed to offer a coherent, (and costed, mores to the point), way forward. Hence imposition. Hence the judicial judgement from the High Court endorsing imposition. It's in black and white. It's blindingly obvious it had to be done.

As for CRM, no snags. You fail to contribute to the safe operation, in the 'appropriate way', you get offloaded. Simple.

[ranger07]

And, Ava

Have a look at some of the posts on the 'non-airline' thread, some of which mention your good self.

Unfortunately for you again, zero sympathy.

http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...ons-ii-15.html

[Caribbean Boy]

BASSA the bully

Hi Ava,

I think you need to re-examine the belief that repeated bullying of BA will cause BA to cave in. This is what used to happen: BASSA would use its muscle and threaten industrial action and BA would give way. Now, BASSA is faced with a CEO who won't give in. What does BASSA do? Strike. And when it doesn't work? Keep striking.

After five strikes lasting 22 days, effectively a lot more due to the short periods between strikes, BASSA is no nearer to getting its way.

And what is BASSA's solution? Strike again after another ballot.

I am reminded of the Aesop fable "The Wind and the Sun".

The wind and the sun argued one day over which one was the stronger. Spotting a man man travelling on the road, they sported a challenge to see which one could remove the coat from the man's back the quickest.

The wind began. He blew strong gusts of air, so strong that the man could barely walk against them. But the man clutched his coat tight against him. The wind blew harder and longer, and the harder the wind blew, the tighter the man held his coat against him.The wind blew until he was exhausted, but he could not remove the coat from the man's back.

It was now the sun's turn. He gently sent his beams upon the traveller. The sun did very little, but quietly shone upon his head and back until the man became so warm that he took off his coat and headed for the nearest shade tree.

Brute force does not always work. But I'm not suggesting that BASSA should go completely down gentle persuasion route either. What BASSA needs to do is some sensible negotiation and try and get itself and its members out of the mess its in with a degree of dignity. I think some deal on ST could be done with seniority restored after a period of time. That won't be perfect for strikers, but you made the imperfect world you find yourself in.

[Ava Hannah]

Virgin Atlantic pay allowances to their crew downroute. They are not included in CAA's figures as ours are. We are on average better paid than other airlines but we are actually NOT the only employee group in the company who is. Our very own CEO is paid more than the CEO of Air France-KLM and almost £200.000 more than the CEO of Ryanair. I could not be bothered if he has more executive experience than Barak Obama. The latter has far more responsibility than Willie Walsh yet earns less. When T5 was opened and became a huge fiasco, people were craving for Willie Walsh's resignation but he still remained in his position. He has created a negative IR framework with IFCE and very heroic of him to decline two bonuses and volunteer to work for free for a month, as he did last year, but I gather it is easy when you earn almost £800.000 a year.

Has the strike not achieved anything? I would claim that it has. Some crew agree that the top-up payment is better than the MTP option. The more you work, the more you get paid. With MTP they could have easily worked you down to your knees for same amount of money. There has also been some other improvements which we have not seen in previous proposals. Why are they refusing to include any sort of payment in our basic salary? Would it be more difficult for BA to change it in the future? Surely the pilots had no problems getting it included in their basic salary when they exchanged their previous allowance system with an hourly pay system?

The wall at Waterside NEVER should have been placed there. What was the intention? To turn everyone against us and to divide us further. There was no other intention. If we did something similiar we would be suspended on the second. There always appears to be different sets of rules. We can see a similarity in their recent offer which they are offering to non-union members and in a couple of days we will be receiving an ESS which claims that thousands of crew members have accepted it.

SOSR? This is also something which has been discussed for a very long time, and according to some, something that was going to happen earlier this month. How many crew are they going to dismiss? Over 5000?

[LondonLobbus]

Why do I get the impression that this "Ava Hannah" is a BASSA-produced. smoke and mirrors, confection?

All he/she has offered is a rehash of 1970s style TUC tripe.

[nurjio]

Ava, hun.

What, exactly, are these apparent different sets of rules? Articulate them, and I'll buy in to your position. They must be in JPMs? BASI's? Where are they? Im searching for them, different sets of rules, where?

[Hotel Mode]

Some crew agree that the top-up payment is better than the MTP option. The more you work, the more you get paid. With MTP they could have easily worked you down to your knees for same amount of money.

The thinking is so muddled that its no surprise that BASSA has no credibility. I thought the MTP was to protect the crew from being left at home on basic only? Now you're worried about working too hard?

Why are they refusing to include any sort of payment in our basic salary? Would it be more difficult for BA to change it in the future? Surely the pilots had no problems getting it included in their basic salary when they exchanged their previous allowance system with an hourly pay system?

A little basic research wouldnt go amiss here. The pilots didnt get it incorporated allowances into basic it just became a flat rate with SOME being put in the basic pot.

With cabin crews appalling sickness record what company is going to want to increase the amount they pay the slackers to stay at home?

If incorporating it into basic is now so vital can I ask why BASSA havent been campaigning for all box payments etc to be incorporated for years? Or is it more likely the case that they are just coming up with spurious scare stories to get a no vote?

SOSR? This is also something which has been discussed for a very long time, and according to some, something that was going to happen earlier this month. How many crew are they going to dismiss? Over 5000?

Please read up on SOSR its not what you think it is at all.

As for over 5000 (I presume you mean strikers) its nothing like that many, its a number BA can survive short term without if necessary. But thats several levels more dramatic than SOSR anyway, so unlikely at this stage.