British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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BA's latest offer has no material bearing on the dispute from Unite's point of view, which is about the use of VCC, ST and disciplinaries. So, why has Woodley said that Unite must "put this offer to our members"?
I think it's because Unite knows that they have lost the war against BA. Why? It's because BA has now launched recruitment for the new Mixed Fleet, which will operate from 1 November. Unite knows very well that it's only a matter of time before MF becomes the big fleet. It will take 10 years, more or less, but the writing is on the wall for WW and EF. Unite also knows that Willie Walsh is not going to cave in and will operate more and more flights throughout any future disputes.
So, Unite is now hoping to get a resolution by having their members vote on BA's latest offer. This can be done by recommending the offer to members, backing down on VCC and disciplinaries and negotiating some sort of deal on ST - say, strikers get it back immediately without seniority and have seniority restored after a year without IA.
I think it's because Unite knows that they have lost the war against BA. Why? It's because BA has now launched recruitment for the new Mixed Fleet, which will operate from 1 November. Unite knows very well that it's only a matter of time before MF becomes the big fleet. It will take 10 years, more or less, but the writing is on the wall for WW and EF. Unite also knows that Willie Walsh is not going to cave in and will operate more and more flights throughout any future disputes.
So, Unite is now hoping to get a resolution by having their members vote on BA's latest offer. This can be done by recommending the offer to members, backing down on VCC and disciplinaries and negotiating some sort of deal on ST - say, strikers get it back immediately without seniority and have seniority restored after a year without IA.
Junior trash
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Holley says this
But BA sent this letter to Unite on friday which may have nudged unites hand
I don't know if those of you who are asking what BASSA thinks this morning heard my interview which followed Tony Woodleys but I made it very clear to Sky that ST was still very much an issue and until that is solved to your satisfaction or approval this dispute is very much on.
I am also doing a further filmed interview with Sky and probably C4 later today and will re-iterate that point.
I have also spoken to TW this morning and he is as committed to the return of ST as he ever was. It is as fundamental to him as you.
A lot of this is making sure we are not outmanouevred by BA. The deal has changed, we need clarity on what BA mean about "guarantees" for example and for that clarity the ballot will have to wait a few days. We have a branch meeting on Monday week, which is perfect timing. We don't want the media spending the next week accusing us of failing to consult our membership and BA making hay at the same time.
Nothing else has changed here, from where I sit the staff travel punishment to those who supported BASSA/UNITE is a crucial obstacle to peace and must be addressed before anything else.
Right I've got to go and iron a shirt. Please be mindful that all is not always what it appears.
Rgds Duncan
I am also doing a further filmed interview with Sky and probably C4 later today and will re-iterate that point.
I have also spoken to TW this morning and he is as committed to the return of ST as he ever was. It is as fundamental to him as you.
A lot of this is making sure we are not outmanouevred by BA. The deal has changed, we need clarity on what BA mean about "guarantees" for example and for that clarity the ballot will have to wait a few days. We have a branch meeting on Monday week, which is perfect timing. We don't want the media spending the next week accusing us of failing to consult our membership and BA making hay at the same time.
Nothing else has changed here, from where I sit the staff travel punishment to those who supported BASSA/UNITE is a crucial obstacle to peace and must be addressed before anything else.
Right I've got to go and iron a shirt. Please be mindful that all is not always what it appears.
Rgds Duncan
In the letter from Brian Boyd and Brendan Gold dated 9th June and in a more recent flyer from Unite, three issues have been set out, slightly differently in each communication, on which you will be basing your ballot. I would like to point out that the three items you advise you will ballot on have all figured throughout this unresolved dispute. Whilst we are carefully examining the reasons for your new ballot, we would like to point out that we believe they are not new items and therefore, you are potentially putting your members at risk.
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25 June 2010
Dear Tony & Derek
Following formal notification on 22 June of your forthcoming ballot for further industrial action, I am writing to advise that the ‘Way Forward Agreement’ which has been available since 6 April 2010 and that you recommended rejection of in your online ballot, has now been withdrawn with immediate effect.
Attached is a revised Final Position which will remain available until you begin your ballot of your Heathrow based members.
We make this offer in a further attempt to reach an agreement before you continue to inflict more damage on our reputation and undermine the job security of the members you claim to represent.
In the letter from Brian Boyd and Brendan Gold dated 9th June and in a more recent flyer from Unite, three issues have been set out, slightly differently in each communication, on which you will be basing your ballot. I would like to point out that the three items you advise you will ballot on have all figured throughout this unresolved dispute. Whilst we are carefully examining the reasons for your new ballot, we would like to point out that we believe they are not new items and therefore, you are potentially putting your members at risk.
My response to each point you make is as follows:
British Airways will deploy resources appropriately to support our customers and our operation. Your current members of cabin crew have continued to have their appropriate collective agreements applied.
Staff travel will not be fully re-instated but the opportunity to have it applied with an amended date of joining does remain available. As my previous gesture on staff travel was while the ‘Way Forward Agreement’ was in place, we have outlined in a revised letter to Brendan Barber the position on staff travel being made available.
The disciplinary procedure we have in place is robust as we have consistently stated. To address your concerns I did offer to allow Acas to attend disciplinaries as observers to allay your concerns about fair and reasonable treatment.
I would strongly urge you to consider the content of this revised offer carefully before you initiate your ballot. I look forward to hearing from you.
Tony McCarthy
Director of People & Organisational Effectiveness
Dear Tony & Derek
Following formal notification on 22 June of your forthcoming ballot for further industrial action, I am writing to advise that the ‘Way Forward Agreement’ which has been available since 6 April 2010 and that you recommended rejection of in your online ballot, has now been withdrawn with immediate effect.
Attached is a revised Final Position which will remain available until you begin your ballot of your Heathrow based members.
We make this offer in a further attempt to reach an agreement before you continue to inflict more damage on our reputation and undermine the job security of the members you claim to represent.
In the letter from Brian Boyd and Brendan Gold dated 9th June and in a more recent flyer from Unite, three issues have been set out, slightly differently in each communication, on which you will be basing your ballot. I would like to point out that the three items you advise you will ballot on have all figured throughout this unresolved dispute. Whilst we are carefully examining the reasons for your new ballot, we would like to point out that we believe they are not new items and therefore, you are potentially putting your members at risk.
My response to each point you make is as follows:
British Airways will deploy resources appropriately to support our customers and our operation. Your current members of cabin crew have continued to have their appropriate collective agreements applied.
Staff travel will not be fully re-instated but the opportunity to have it applied with an amended date of joining does remain available. As my previous gesture on staff travel was while the ‘Way Forward Agreement’ was in place, we have outlined in a revised letter to Brendan Barber the position on staff travel being made available.
The disciplinary procedure we have in place is robust as we have consistently stated. To address your concerns I did offer to allow Acas to attend disciplinaries as observers to allay your concerns about fair and reasonable treatment.
I would strongly urge you to consider the content of this revised offer carefully before you initiate your ballot. I look forward to hearing from you.
Tony McCarthy
Director of People & Organisational Effectiveness
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Ava
I am sure you will find it very easy to find a job somewhere in South Africa, or maybe Zimbabwe, or perhaps even anywhere in Europe, that will prove to be a much more satisfactory employer than BA.
Good luck
I am sure you will find it very easy to find a job somewhere in South Africa, or maybe Zimbabwe, or perhaps even anywhere in Europe, that will prove to be a much more satisfactory employer than BA.
Good luck
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Whats the difference between the England team and BA cabin crew on strike?
One is a group of over paid,underachieving, self absorbed, primma donnas putting little effort in while claiming to be the best representing the flag......
The other is the England football team.
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Can what remains of this dispute be finally put to rest:
BA 747 crew commended for escaping near-stall on take-off
BA 747 crew commended for escaping near-stall on take-off
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I was banned for a personal attack...apologies to all
Did anybody else pick up on Tony Woodley's piece to the media today.
He maintains that the latest offer is a good one but he cannot recommend it because it does not address the issue of staff travel and disciplinary action taken against members.
My view is that Tony Woodley has now concluded that this matter has run it's course but BASSA have yet to be persuaded as staff travel rights and disciplinary action against members are conditions of any settlement.
Mr Walsh is going to offer the new terms to non-union members on a personal basis, this is a 90 day notice of change of contract wrapped up in nice paper and the majority will surely accept.
Whilst this is being processed, a substantial number of BASSA members will be clambering to sign up to the new agreement and will certainly be looking to BASSA to allow them to have the opportunity.
If BASSA refuse to ballot it's members then there will be an outcry from the still moderate majority element within BASSA who are not in the 2500+ striker group.
Mr Walsh can sent the same 90 day notice to BASSA members and sit back and wait for the signed acceptances to come flooding in.
Mr Duncan Holley, although you are no longer a BA employee, you have a problem.
In the words of Rolf Harris "Can you see what it is yet"?
He maintains that the latest offer is a good one but he cannot recommend it because it does not address the issue of staff travel and disciplinary action taken against members.
My view is that Tony Woodley has now concluded that this matter has run it's course but BASSA have yet to be persuaded as staff travel rights and disciplinary action against members are conditions of any settlement.
Mr Walsh is going to offer the new terms to non-union members on a personal basis, this is a 90 day notice of change of contract wrapped up in nice paper and the majority will surely accept.
Whilst this is being processed, a substantial number of BASSA members will be clambering to sign up to the new agreement and will certainly be looking to BASSA to allow them to have the opportunity.
If BASSA refuse to ballot it's members then there will be an outcry from the still moderate majority element within BASSA who are not in the 2500+ striker group.
Mr Walsh can sent the same 90 day notice to BASSA members and sit back and wait for the signed acceptances to come flooding in.
Mr Duncan Holley, although you are no longer a BA employee, you have a problem.
In the words of Rolf Harris "Can you see what it is yet"?
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I must admit I am dubious of this offer to be honest now having had a closer look.
The fact that BA initially said they would recruit 184 crew to start Mixed Fleet.... to allow reinstatement of crew complements to be increased on some flights on current fleets but now are saying they are recruiting 1250 (which is fair enough as many of us said we didn't understand why UNITE were pushing for more crew as it would bring Mixed Fleet quicker!) however now our crew complements will stay reduced as they are (again fair enough) but they are recruiting a lot of Mixed Fleet crew than they planned before.
Does this mean that the amount of routes that need to go over are increased. There is no mention of what routes will be gone to Mixed Fleet in November. OK so that is UNITEs fault as they have not been negotiating this, but I am worried that more routes will need to go.
1250 to start on Mixed Fleet is alot more than I expected!
On the other hand The new payment at first glance looks less than before is just a minimum - however if you work harder you get more - so that is actually better than before so that is acceptable.
However it does seem to be lacking in detail with regards to guarantees for us current crew.
Also I am shocked at the pay for new crew. I know that people are willing etc etc.... but it is less than I thought and less than market rate as easyjet and some charters get more, bearing in mind we are based in the most expensive part of the country.
I am still in two minds, but if we continue striking - the offer is likely to not get better is it?? Also maybe this Mixed Fleet through performance pay etc etc may improve performance and get rid of people who are here but do not enjoy the job. I don't know!
The fact that BA initially said they would recruit 184 crew to start Mixed Fleet.... to allow reinstatement of crew complements to be increased on some flights on current fleets but now are saying they are recruiting 1250 (which is fair enough as many of us said we didn't understand why UNITE were pushing for more crew as it would bring Mixed Fleet quicker!) however now our crew complements will stay reduced as they are (again fair enough) but they are recruiting a lot of Mixed Fleet crew than they planned before.
Does this mean that the amount of routes that need to go over are increased. There is no mention of what routes will be gone to Mixed Fleet in November. OK so that is UNITEs fault as they have not been negotiating this, but I am worried that more routes will need to go.
1250 to start on Mixed Fleet is alot more than I expected!
On the other hand The new payment at first glance looks less than before is just a minimum - however if you work harder you get more - so that is actually better than before so that is acceptable.
However it does seem to be lacking in detail with regards to guarantees for us current crew.
Also I am shocked at the pay for new crew. I know that people are willing etc etc.... but it is less than I thought and less than market rate as easyjet and some charters get more, bearing in mind we are based in the most expensive part of the country.
I am still in two minds, but if we continue striking - the offer is likely to not get better is it?? Also maybe this Mixed Fleet through performance pay etc etc may improve performance and get rid of people who are here but do not enjoy the job. I don't know!
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SlideBustle wrote:
The only guarantees are death and taxes. 
However it does seem to be lacking in detail with regards to guarantees for us current crew.
I suppose but what I mean is protections!
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Well, basic pay and variable pay top up are guaranteed. However, other allowances will reduce as more routes go to Mixed Fleet. You do have, though, several years to deal with this.
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SideBustle,
I don't think you have to worry too much.
1250 sounds alot but just one daily longhaul destination can take anywhere from 50 to 70 crew to be able to crew it.
Back in the early 90's the Hongkong daily service out of Gatwick transfered to Heathrow and 90 cabin crew had to transfer from Gatwick to Heathrow just so LHR could crew that one extra daily flight.
Bill Francis gave us a list of all the destinations that will be going at first. I dont think 1250 crew will take up all those flights even.
He has also promised to do it in a fair way sharing the good and bad destinations across the fleets. So it should not affect our pay if it is done fairly like he has said he will.
It may cut down on some of the places we go to but he has actually given new fleet quite a few of the E/F band 4's. Which are not so popular.
CPH is going and that's sad for me but I'll get over it. If you are a longhaul crew member none of the very long range are going yet and that is good for longhaul now especially as they will now continue to trigger the boxes!! So don't worry. It will take a very long time before new fleet even come close to outnumbering us.
Hope that has stopped you worrying too much.
I don't think you have to worry too much.
1250 sounds alot but just one daily longhaul destination can take anywhere from 50 to 70 crew to be able to crew it.
Back in the early 90's the Hongkong daily service out of Gatwick transfered to Heathrow and 90 cabin crew had to transfer from Gatwick to Heathrow just so LHR could crew that one extra daily flight.
Bill Francis gave us a list of all the destinations that will be going at first. I dont think 1250 crew will take up all those flights even.
He has also promised to do it in a fair way sharing the good and bad destinations across the fleets. So it should not affect our pay if it is done fairly like he has said he will.
It may cut down on some of the places we go to but he has actually given new fleet quite a few of the E/F band 4's. Which are not so popular.
CPH is going and that's sad for me but I'll get over it. If you are a longhaul crew member none of the very long range are going yet and that is good for longhaul now especially as they will now continue to trigger the boxes!! So don't worry. It will take a very long time before new fleet even come close to outnumbering us.
Hope that has stopped you worrying too much.
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Betty's girl,
Thanks for that. I suppose just a few routes do take a lot of crew to crew them, so all those routes would not have been enough for 184 to crew it so maybe I am unnecassarily concerned!
I just want to see a matrix of routes that becomes contractual. As it wouldn't be fair especially to those of us who backed BA if BF/WW go back on their word and transfer the GVA/ZRH/SYD/NRT to Mixed Fleet! As that will effectively mean a pay cut for us!
I too think it will take some time fro Mixed Fleet to outnumber us, however I just want to see a matrix of how they will transfer their routes, before that I will be abit concerned.
Btw... this top up payment whilst is lower, as it is a MINIMUM is much better as it rewards you for doing more work, meaning that our bidding system should still work.
Thanks for that. I suppose just a few routes do take a lot of crew to crew them, so all those routes would not have been enough for 184 to crew it so maybe I am unnecassarily concerned!
I just want to see a matrix of routes that becomes contractual. As it wouldn't be fair especially to those of us who backed BA if BF/WW go back on their word and transfer the GVA/ZRH/SYD/NRT to Mixed Fleet! As that will effectively mean a pay cut for us!
I too think it will take some time fro Mixed Fleet to outnumber us, however I just want to see a matrix of how they will transfer their routes, before that I will be abit concerned.
Btw... this top up payment whilst is lower, as it is a MINIMUM is much better as it rewards you for doing more work, meaning that our bidding system should still work.
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Colonel White has written:
Yes indeed, mon Colonel. If one visits the website quoted in the BASSA message (www.lipstickandlaw.com) one can see the blog of a wannabe lawyer claiming to
This Lord Denning in the making has not even bothered to post to her own website since February 2009!
With the greatest of respect to the owner of the lipstickandlaw website, if she is the very best legal advisor that BASSA can afford then the union and its general secretary should be sued by its members for misuse of their subscription funds.
Sounds like a very desperate attempt to make sure they don't make the same c*ck up that occurred with the first ballot. I still think that the situation is a potential minefield.
work for a very big airline, flying to wonderful destinations around the world.
With the greatest of respect to the owner of the lipstickandlaw website, if she is the very best legal advisor that BASSA can afford then the union and its general secretary should be sued by its members for misuse of their subscription funds.
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SideBustle.
If you still have all your internal emails from BA there is a copy of a letter BA sent to the unions on 26 April 2010 about how route transfers will be decided and which ones will be transfering at first.( I can't print it, it wont let me)
So look for an email sent to you on 29 April and the click on what dose this mean for you. Then look at the bottom and it shows a link to a letter to Tony Woodley.
Initially these routes are the first to go over:-
Shorthaul Budapest, Prague, Copenhagen, Kiev, St. Petersburgh, Sofia, Amsterdam.
Longhaul Abuja, Nairobi, Denver, Dallas FW, Luanda, Las Vegus, Mauritius, Atlanta, Chicago, and Monteal.
Anyway all this will take alot of time and will initially be 777 and airbus routes only at first.
I stupidly printed last week a rumour that I had heard from someone, that the Copenhagen and Amsterdam nightstops had already been removed from our bid package for August and this was not true. They are still there. So in future I will not be printing any rumors I hear on line. It is important that we all listen to what is actually happening and not listen to scare stories especially those put about by BASSA.
I am sure eventually more routes will go across but it will take quite some time. It can only expand as we contract, that is as people leave and retire. Initially there is going to be a big spurt as he offers lots of part time to those waiting for it and as some main crew decide to transfer over for the chance of better promotion opportunities but then it will slow down quite a bit.
Hope that helps.
If you still have all your internal emails from BA there is a copy of a letter BA sent to the unions on 26 April 2010 about how route transfers will be decided and which ones will be transfering at first.( I can't print it, it wont let me)
So look for an email sent to you on 29 April and the click on what dose this mean for you. Then look at the bottom and it shows a link to a letter to Tony Woodley.
Initially these routes are the first to go over:-
Shorthaul Budapest, Prague, Copenhagen, Kiev, St. Petersburgh, Sofia, Amsterdam.
Longhaul Abuja, Nairobi, Denver, Dallas FW, Luanda, Las Vegus, Mauritius, Atlanta, Chicago, and Monteal.
Anyway all this will take alot of time and will initially be 777 and airbus routes only at first.
I stupidly printed last week a rumour that I had heard from someone, that the Copenhagen and Amsterdam nightstops had already been removed from our bid package for August and this was not true. They are still there. So in future I will not be printing any rumors I hear on line. It is important that we all listen to what is actually happening and not listen to scare stories especially those put about by BASSA.
I am sure eventually more routes will go across but it will take quite some time. It can only expand as we contract, that is as people leave and retire. Initially there is going to be a big spurt as he offers lots of part time to those waiting for it and as some main crew decide to transfer over for the chance of better promotion opportunities but then it will slow down quite a bit.
Hope that helps.
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I just wanted to add one more thing.
There will be times when we are over-crewed but that happens now. There will also be times when we are under-crewed that also happens now. But equally it will be the case that NF is sometimes under or over crewed too.
However it just would not make business sence for BA to leave any of us without work whatever fleet we are on. It is in BA's interest to have all crew working and happy for the sake of basic salary costs and for the sake of a happy and productive workforce.
There will be times when we are over-crewed but that happens now. There will also be times when we are under-crewed that also happens now. But equally it will be the case that NF is sometimes under or over crewed too.
However it just would not make business sence for BA to leave any of us without work whatever fleet we are on. It is in BA's interest to have all crew working and happy for the sake of basic salary costs and for the sake of a happy and productive workforce.
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Ave Hannah asked:
Perhaps AH would care to share with us what day of the week, and which time of day, would he/she have preferred?
Why did they send out the proposal on a Friday night?
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So look for an email sent to you on 29 April and the click on what dose this mean for you. Then look at the bottom and it shows a link to a letter to Tony Woodley.
Initially these routes are the first to go over:-
Shorthaul Budapest, Prague, Copenhagen, Kiev, St. Petersburgh, Sofia, Amsterdam.
Longhaul Abuja, Nairobi, Denver, Dallas FW, Luanda, Las Vegus, Mauritius, Atlanta, Chicago, and Monteal.
Initially these routes are the first to go over:-
Shorthaul Budapest, Prague, Copenhagen, Kiev, St. Petersburgh, Sofia, Amsterdam.
Longhaul Abuja, Nairobi, Denver, Dallas FW, Luanda, Las Vegus, Mauritius, Atlanta, Chicago, and Monteal.
Originally Posted by 25 Jun 2010
Attached is a revised Final Position which will remain available until you begin your ballot of your Heathrow based members.
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Human Factor.
Well it is the framework that they are currently working to, as they set up New Fleet. As it is routes BA chose in the first place, I see no reason why they would have dramatically changed their minds.
I am a crew member that has worked throughout and have been in direct correspondance with Bill Francis. All along he has constantly emailed me saying he is trying to secure this offer for us.
The new offer is an improvement as a direct result of crew like me emailing him with our concerns.
He has always said that he dose NOT intend to disadvantage anyone who backed BA. So I have no reason to beleive that it will have changed that much.
I was not saying the original 'Way forward ' is still on offer. I was just highlighting the proposed routes to go first.
Well it is the framework that they are currently working to, as they set up New Fleet. As it is routes BA chose in the first place, I see no reason why they would have dramatically changed their minds.
I am a crew member that has worked throughout and have been in direct correspondance with Bill Francis. All along he has constantly emailed me saying he is trying to secure this offer for us.
The new offer is an improvement as a direct result of crew like me emailing him with our concerns.
He has always said that he dose NOT intend to disadvantage anyone who backed BA. So I have no reason to beleive that it will have changed that much.
I was not saying the original 'Way forward ' is still on offer. I was just highlighting the proposed routes to go first.