British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[A Lurker]

Wobble - I understand exactly how a Global Airline works - the point I was trying to put across was the cash is there to keep the airline going - can you honestly see them let it go to the wall?

The cost of a strike is a drop in the ocean compared to what we have in cash reserve - lets face it they millions paid out in fines will more than cover the lost revenue of a few days strike - and if BA win the potential upside is massive

BA will not go under - and if you think that then we will have to agree to differ.

[A Lurker]

Desertia - striking now is the only option as the company has already implemented the following without agreement:

1. One crew member will be removed from all Heathrow Worldwide 747 flights from 16th November 2009.

2. One purser will be removed from all Heathrow Worldwide 777 flights from 16th November 2009.

3. One crew member will also be removed from Long range 777 Worldwide routes from 16th November 2009.

4. An additional crew member will also be removed from specified high work load 747 and 777 routes from 16th November 2009. As per agreement reached post September 11th 2001.

5. All worldwide CSD’s will be instructed to carry out some of the duties of the removed crew member, in addition to and with no reduction of their already high workload. This is without any reference to the negotiated job description as defined in the CSD framework.

6. All remaining worldwide crewmembers will be instructed to carry out some of the duties of the removed purser and or main crew position, with no reduction of their already high workload.

7. Eurofleet crew compliments will be unilaterally reduced from 1st December 2009.

8. You are replacing one Purser position with a main crew member on the 777 aircraft at London Gatwick from 1st December 2009.
In addition;

9. You are imposing a two year freeze to base pay and allowances on all cabin crew.

10.You have imposed a 20% reduction in employee food subsidies at both Heathrow and Gatwick.

11.You are reducing transfer and promotion opportunities within all grades and bases within the established crew compliments.

12.You are ending working up payments

13.You are linking long and short haul sectors within the same duty between Gatwick/LCY and JFK via SNN– in breach of the Gatwick Fleet MOA.

14.You are ignoring the maximum planned duty period allowed by the Gatwick Fleet MOA, intentionally misinterpreting the same in order to facilitate the Maldives itinerary.

15.You are unilaterally removing the ability for crew to transfer between Gatwick Fleet and Heathrow Fleet presently available under the Ops and Choice Agreement ratified at NSP

16.You are refusing to recognise and failing to adhere to the IFC- Terms of Reference and other specific agreements. These agreements and terms of reference relate to product development, product changes and crewing levels onboard both long haul and short haul services from Heathrow and Gatwick.

17.You have re-imposed the concept of using part time cabin crew during their unavailable period, without agreement to cover flying duties. This contravenes the agreement reached with the trade unions in the dispute settlement document in 2006/7.

18.You have failed to honour the Dispute Settlement Document of 2006/7, in that there are a number of outstanding items that have not been implemented or addressed by British Airways.

There is then the threat of New Fleet and the 52 week rule that all current employees who are deemed surplus to requirements have 52 weeks to find another job within the airline.

Plus BA have this week openly acknowledged the fact that they are blatantly ignoring the agreed Opportunities & Choice agreement. This document has served, both BA and the crew community well over the years.

Which means that TOTAL EXCLUSION of LGW crew from any transfer under the current Opportunities and Choice Agreement.

■ Before transferring Pursers from Worldwide to Eurofleet the agreement states that existing Eurofleet Pursers should be given the opportunity to increase their contract type. This hasn't been done and BA have no intention of doing so.

■ If Pursers are being offered the chance to come to Eurofleet, that means there are Purser vacancies and therefore there is an agreement where those vacancies are filled via transfers and home team promotion i.e. Eurofleet main crew can apply for Purser on Eurofleet. BA are transferring 26 Pursers from Worldwide to Eurofleet and this should equal 78 opportunities for Eurofleet main crew to go for promotion to Purser. BA have ignored this agreement and will not be offering any main crew the opportunity to apply for Purser.

■ The ‘secondment’ of Worldwide PSR to CSD has NOT been agreed as there is NO such process.

■ Worldwide CSDs should have been offered the opportunity to increase their contract before any ‘other’ process was put in place. This hasn't been done and BA have no intention of doing so.

■ Despite the fact that some crew were unsuccessful in getting annual leave over Christmas, BA have granted unpaid leave for the whole of December. This decision is both unfair and will restrict the chances of you getting annual leave over Christmas and New Year.

■ BA advised us that there were no further plans to transfer main crew from Eurofleet to Worldwide and from Worldwide to Eurofleet for the foreseeable future.

Now after seeing all of the above - I'm sure you would agree that there is a fairly large dispute going on here!!!!

[Desertia]

The cost of a strike is a drop in the ocean compared to what we have in cash reserve - lets face it they millions paid out in fines will more than cover the lost revenue of a few days strike - and if BA win the potential upside is massive

Somehow Lurker I think you should read back in the thread. The additional funding BA received was based on the cost savings they guaranteed to make.

BASSA think for reasons beyond me that they are immune to these cost savings, even going so far as to invent some themselves - which of course did not bear even the most cursory of scrutinies.

If BA intend to use any of those funds in any potential dispute, it will be to cushion the blow of lost revenue while they sack strikers and employ people who don't actually think they are owed a living.

They didn't borrow money to keep BASSA diehards in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed, no matter what you might think!

[midman]

Originally Posted by A Lurker

Midman - the fact is it's about power for both BASSA and BA

Let's face it BA have been wanting to crack the trades union for years -

Are you saying that Bassa have the same right as BA to wish for that power?

BA are the employer, they pay our wages, and so of course should control its business operations.
I've been an employer, and although I considered the impact of my decisions on the employees, the concept of the employees deciding how my business was run, with the express aim of those decisions being to enhance the terms and conditions of same employees, rather than my business would have been entirely unacceptable.

BA are happy with unions per se, they allow the company to save money on personnel departments and some management functions, but they're not happy with them dictating the course of the business. If BA can't 'impose' hot towels in club, then union power has gone too far.

PS If you think £1 billion will keep BA in business through this recession at current cost levels, you need to speak to someone with financial expertise. Once we're down to 600-700 million, we're dead in the water. All out of a job.

[fincastle84]

A Lurker

I certainly don't know your circumstances. Therefore if you can survive redundancy then you obviously have an alternative income & don't need BA. In that case why not quietly resign & apply yourself to your alternative employment? Then your colleagues can carry on & help BA survive through these difficult times.
If you wish to discuss this further then please PM me, otherwise the 'Mods' will delete us.

Not necessarily... as long as you keep the discussion relevant, appropriate and neither merely rehash the BALPA deal, attack another poster or post "BASSA 100% " without any form of content disregarding the arguments put forward before, then it will be allowed to stay.

Most of the deletions on this thread are purely editorial, removing pointless, content-free nonsense from those who should read the thread beforehand, or think they are posting on one of the biased websites and their hand-clapping and assertions of "solidarity" are sufficient to allow their thoughts to stand. They are not.

The "Mods."

[wobble2plank]

BA will not go under - and if you think that then we will have to agree to differ.

I tend to agree that BA will not go under as the market brand and global placing is too big.

What I am trying to put across is that the company can stop trading for a week. Cancel its AOC and then re-emerge as a 'new' BA. Have a look at what Iberia is doing with its short haul fleet to get an idea.

If that is the case then any contract won't be worth anything. The company will pick and choose from those employees it wishes to re-employ and then it will move on. Without the millstone of BASSA hanging on its every decision.

Worst case scenario it may be but I think the current environment is playing directly to Willie Walsh's tune and the above 'doomsday' scenario won't ever come to pass.

[A Lurker]

Midman

ref: Are you saying that Bassa have the same right as BA to wish for that power?

No not sating that at all - what I meant to impart was was BA are now wanting it all - I myself have been an employer and understand that to keep my business afloat one has to have a (fairly) content workforce. BASSA and other unions within BA have held a certain amount of power since pre-privatisation days - BA after having broke the Ground Staff union and their grip on power are now trying to wrest that same power from BASSA - thus dealing them impotent

[Clarified]

Bassarised

Could this become a new word for future inclusion into the English language?

I think most people on this forum agree that Unite will, (BASSA members esp.) return their masters call and vote yes. Practically the only thing BASSA haven't done is have a banner flying over LHR saying 'vote YES', if ATC didn't restrict the airspace I think they would have done that!!
In my view, this flowof BASSA comms is a desperate last stand. Where else do you go when you're totally in a corner?
As BASSA enjoy invoking historical events the words 'Custer' and 'Stand' spring to mind.
The retoric is motivating, the facts are far more sobering.
You have to ask the quetsion 'has my employer, (paymaster) being reasonable and tried to find compromise and not been petulant?
My view is they have and as I have said before, so do a lot of other crew and almost everyone that isn't.
If, this comes to a strike the company will have to respond in order to protect everyone, including it's fellow employees 28000 livelyhoods outside cabin crew and a large number who will not strike who are crew.
Don't expect much compromise from BA, if that one is forced on them, we will all be in survival mode. BA will have to use everything thing at their disposal to get control of their business.
That means anything that is threatening that process will have to be dealt with, not challenged.
That moment will clearly define all the shadowy goings on right now, lets see how that one pans out.

[A Lurker]

Wobble - lets hope not - this is a fantastic company which many of us are proud to work for - lets face it we have been here and (hopefully) will be here for many years to come whilst the CEO's of this world come and go and leave behind their legacy!

Right - time for a glass of red - thanks for the debate and have a good weekend

[Desertia]

Lurker,

I mean what has it COST you? In readies?

Have you had to make sacrifices, e.g. dropping the Mouton for a Lambrusco?

[Tiramisu]

Originally posted by A Lurker
In fact thinking of it - Eurofleet may stand to be the biggest losers from all of this - yet I don't think many of them realise that yet!!

Sorry A Lurker, can you please explain what you mean by your above statement?

[Fume Event]

Well Carnage. If I was a CSD, I would not use the Briefing as a time to push a personal agenda, it is company time. What I said was the mood of the crew was obvious.

Let me give you another observation which I have heard from many crew. That is they have said that the ballot paper has been opened, the YES box crossed and put in the post 'tout de suite'! NO HESITATION AT ALL! The return will be higher than 2007 with a vote in favour in excess of 95%.

I can't wait until the 14th to see you all using every facet of your literally skills, to put the best possible gloss on that result for BA. On this forum there are many like Carnage who will argue that black is actually white. Smell the coffee, read the writing on the wall, Walsh has really poked the rabbit treating his front line staff so badly. As Len McCluskey said at the last mass meeting:"90% of you were in BA before Walsh arrived, and 90% of you will still be there when he has gone".

This is not just about 'Imposition', BA's cabin crew are using this ballot as a referendum on the conduct of Willie Walsh and his management team since May 2005, who are leading the airline in a pernicious cost cutting spiral. Many passengers, especially Executive Club members support the cabin crew. You only have to witness the pathetic product now offered in Club that this is beyond cost cutting. It is actually taking the piss out of intelligent people who have paid a premium fare and are getting a 'low cost' product. Willie Walsh has adopted a Gerald Ratner/MOL attitude towards his staff and customers, and BA's cabin crew are going to do something about it.

All will be revealed on the 14th, but my predictions are of an 88% plus return and a 95% plus vote in favour of industrial action.

[Fume Event]

Another timely reminder to most of you supporting BA here, is that when there is imposition, there are only two ways to resolve the crisis:

1. Negotiation

2. A strike.

Imposition is union busting pure and simple. It is unfortunate that Willie Walsh has chosen this route as he of all people would know as an ex union negotitiator the implications of imposition. That is why he has done it.

BA will not negotiate any further I believe until the vote comes in, then we can see what cards both parties are holding. As Wobble mentioned earlier Walsh may try his old trick of just shutting the airline down for a week, but then UNITE may sanction a strike longer than that anyway?

BA should not wait until the 14th to look into the abyss, they should come to the negotiating table now for meaningful talks. The tactics of the last few months by BA have been planned for years. Operation Columbus is Walsh's Schlieffen Plan, and like the Schlieffen Plan, it will end in failure.

[Human Factor]

All will be revealed on the 14th, but my predictions are of an 88% plus return and a 95% plus vote in favour of industrial action.

You could well be right. The big question though is how many of your 83% will actually walk when asked?

[bermudatriangle]

Fume Event you are absolutely spot on....all the Bassa bashers on this forum can spout whatever they like,but there is no doubt that the BA cabin crew will vote overwhelmingly for a strike.There is no way management can start to impose changes to terms and conditions to working practices,where will it end ??
If the current proposals were to be implemented,then the union is finished and employees have no representation in the future.
Negotiation is the only way forward and the sooner the leadership team realise this the better.
14 th december will deliver a resounding yes vote for industrial action,lets see then if closing down the operation is a viable option,i think not !!

[Fume Event]

Well HF in 2007 more than 96% of the 8,462 staff who took part in a postal ballot voted in favour of action, with just 330 voting against. The turnout was 80%.

As far as the numbers of those actually walking out, well, I have been in BA for over 37 years and have experienced a few disputes before, so I know what to expect. All I can say is that I have never seen the cabin crew more resolute and focussed as they are now. There is a tremendous feeling of camaraderie and unity.

BA are making a huge mistake if they doubt the resolve of their employees to support their union and each other. When this is all over, Walsh will try and dodge the bullet again as he did over T5. Just watch him wiggle out of this one! It will be toe curling to watch. Deja vu all over again.

[Carnage Matey!]

Well HF in 2007 more than 96% of the 8,462 staff who took part in a postal ballot voted in favour of action, with just 330 voting against. The turnout was 80%.

And what happened to your strike? An overwhelming yes vote from straw men doesn't scare anyone.

[Freddielaker]

All I can say is that I have never seen the cabin crew more resolute and focussed as they are now. There is a tremendous feeling of camaraderie and unity.

I disagree. The people I fly with are confused and frightened. They deserve better support and representation.

[Desertia]

Fume Event offered:

I can't wait until the 14th to see you all using every facet of your literally skills, to put the best possible gloss on that result for BA. On this forum there are many like Carnage who will argue that black is actually white.

And this coming from the person that hilariously declared that BASSA's failure to secure an injunction was actually a success?!

Good grief

Whilst I disagree with your unwavering belief in the totally unwavering support for the strike against the totally sickening management ..er... yes I would agree with you that BA have stopped negotiating (well yes, it's hard to do that when your counterparts refuse to do anything than stomp their feet and squeal like schoolgirls at a Take That concert) and the ballot is your last challenge. However, you seem to think the outcome of that ballot will change their course.

As heartening as it is that you feel you will have company when you are picking up your first benefit cheque, people have a strange sense of self-preservation when they know their job is at risk, and BA have definitely had their fill of BA's antics. They are doing what they agreed to do with the companys owners.

There are two real options for BASSA members. irrespective of the ballot result:

(a) Turn up to work as normal and keep your job.
(b) Strike, and get what you deserve, the sack.

And that, dear Fume Event, is pretty well as black and white as it gets.

[hunterboy]

Why does anyone deserve the sack for coming out on strike following a legal ballot? We don't live in the Soviet Union do we?
I thought everybody had the right to withdraw their labour? However, the employee should understand the consequences. One must expect their employer to make alternative arrangements.