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British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

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British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

Old 1st Jul 2009, 08:58
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British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

Continuation thread from BA and Project Columbus III
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:10
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Best wishes crew, I hope negotiations do indeed continue for everyones sake.

Cheers

Long haired redneck surf hippie pilot.

Buter

(I just wanted to be the first to post, really)
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:12
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I note on the BA forum that the crew are complaining that BA haven't turned up for talks today. Just wanted to point out that this may be due to the fact that BA have asked ACAS to mediate any further talks.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:13
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does anyone else get annoyed at bassa's continual comparison to the pilots pay and conditions?

It seems to be just to stir up emotional ranting in their publications. It is completely irrelevent and like comparing cabin crew wages with that of a supermarket worker. Different jobs people.....
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:18
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What's even more annoying is they still won't compare them accurately! They claim their 2.61% pay cut proposal 'exactly mirrors' the pilots but conveniently overlook the additional 1800 cut in flying pay. Wonder what the judge will make of that at injunction time?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:19
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does anyone else get annoyed at bassa's continual comparison to the pilots pay and conditions?
I also get annoyed by their behaviour but they are not mentioning anything that every other department in BA have had their terms and conditions changed the last years.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:37
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True Figures

Crew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%. These figures were released last night.

Guys less face it Willy wants a strike. You only have to go on the BA forum to see the ill feeling we have for our managers.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:43
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"Crew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%"

Perhaps BASSA could have spent their time more profitably by negotiating with the company, then perhaps their deal may have been a lot more reasonable.

I feel great sympathy for my CC colleagues - it must be frightening looking at how your financial prospects are facing catastrophe.

BASSA's failure to represent the whole crew rather than the senior few at every turn seems to have finally hit the end of the road - their actions have failed their members shockingly. This can now only end in tears.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:45
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And what you forget, NO JACKETS REQUIRED, is that other departments, including the pilots, have been changing their Ts & Cs and pay for several years - unlike the cabin crew. BASSA have harumphed, foot-stomped, hissy-fitted and more for years, and now the change that should have been made long ago, in small increments, is going to be made in one fell swoop.

Of course its going to hurt, but BASSA has only itself to blame. Market forces and a lousy financial period are going to claim those who wander around with their fingers in their ears and blinkers on their eyes. Bad luck.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:52
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Again, NO JACKETS REQUIRED, why the comparison? This isn't about whats fair or anything between the two (and the rest) departments! IFCE has been given a target and so have the other ones, perhaps your target is higher % wise because of the minimal changes it has made since privatisation........

Why can't bassa just produce info to its members based on what it is up to rather then moaning that other departments have different cost targets???!!!

I'm all for fact based debate but when bassa puts out crap figures to stoke up emotions it's entirely wrong on many levels. But then this is a rumour site so perhaps........
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 09:57
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I'm not interested in Pilots pay or T&Cs. But the argument raises its head every time a Pilot compares their own situation with Cabin Crew. I.e. 'Our T&Cs are x,y,z so we shouldn't have to do a,b,c.'

They have always been different jobs and at different times have had different opportunities. I keep reading comments from Pilots telling Cabin Crew not to compare T&Cs. Agree. So, if there is no comparrison for new T&Cs, why should there have been a retro-comparrison of old T&Cs.

I will not accept, from anyone who isn't Cabin Crew, how I should be renumerated and how I should operate. I don't tell Pilots, Engineers or Ground Staff how much they are worth or how to do their jobs. Necks out.

Or, is the problem that Walsh has linked everybodies agreements together. Does this failure mean that other agreements will nolonger be ratified. Has Walsh deliberately created a split, a blame culture. I believe he has. It is easy to offer 13million of shares and drop new fleet when the leadership have no intention of offering these conessions. But the blame will not, on the surface, lie with management, no, it will now lie with the Cabin Crew.

I've said before and I increasingly maintain. Walsh has no desire for talks to succeed. Read the latest news item on BA's ESS site.

ACAS called in as talks end without agreement


It has not proved possible to conclude an agreement with the trade unions on the pay and productivity discussions by the deadline of June 30.

British Airways has therefore asked the conciliation service ACAS to facilitate any future meetings they may have.



Curt. And highlights the leadership attitude. May?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 10:01
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The threat of change will not only hit cc. Guy's even the chance of a strike will effect everyone In BA. I can not see a agreement between BA or BASSA. As a membership we gave our unions a mandate on what to negotiate, that is what they have proposed to BA. If BA refuse it and impose any changes, we would ballot for a strike.

What bothers me , is that there are members that are creating a them and us environment. We must respect our individual unions, as it is their respective job to get the best deal for its members.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 10:07
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I think it is good news that BA have called ACAS in straight away. The message from BASSA last night was very emotive, far from accurate and calling it's members to arms.

The message from Amicus, on the UniteBA website, was much more level-headed and focused. I sincerely hope that Amicus have recognised the need to continue to negotiate and that they can persuade their emotive, fly-off-the handle counter-parts to do the same.

The calls for strike on the other forums are far too premature and very dangerous talk indeed.

Breathe everyone...and think about what's at stake here.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 10:08
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NO JACKETS REQUIRED
Crew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%.
and you then go on to state merely 24 minutes later:
What bothers me , is that there are members that are creating a them and us environment.
Perhaps you need look no further than yourself?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 10:50
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Curt. And highlights the leadership attitude. May?
I'm not sure where the problem is with BAs statement. BA have been negotiating for three months, their bottom line is that IFCE must deliver their share of the savings. Instead of working towards that goal they've had three months of denial, prevarication and obfuscation from BASSA, all directed towards giving up as little as possible. If so little has been achieved in three months why should BA continue to negotiate? Their bottom line is clear. BASSA seem to be trying to string things out as long as possible in the hope that they'll be overlooked, or can reduce their share. If they were spending their time negotiating instead of looking over the fence at other departments it would be worth carrying on, but why would BA agree to another three months of bluster?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 11:08
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No jackets reqd, thanks for the numbers, I have been asking for the numbers for a while.

Pilots 8%, Cabin Crew 37%, this gap is too big.

Reminds me of interview with Mr T many years ago, he was asked what he expected when he gets in the ring with Rocky, he said just one word "PAIN"

Unions and management have allowed CC market rate to be unworkable by years of doing nothink, now the CC will catch up fast track, good luck to all the CC, hope you can adjust the % to below 20, but I think not, if pain is to be taken, management will want max gain, wild guess is 25/26% is the bottom line number.
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 11:13
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NO JACKETS REQUIRED
As a membership we gave our unions a mandate on what to negotiate
As I remember it the unanimous mandate you gave your union was -

NO to saving 82 Million.
NO to the creation of the new fleet.
NO to any further talks about this.

And a Vote of NO Confidence in Willie and Immediate Ballot for Strike Action should plans still be pushed forward.



Now whats the question!

Last edited by Perry-oaks; 1st Jul 2009 at 11:16. Reason: spelling!
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 11:40
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BASSA was against introduction of a new fleet but suggested themselves for a new contract on current fleets instead. BA has now done this and BASSA is mad over it. What's the problem?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 12:13
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Its in the detail nug.

Bassa suggested a new contract for new joiners. BA have scrapped new fleet as a seperate entity but proposed that the details of new fleet are accepted by existing crew.

We are to become new fleet.

What BA have proposed goes much further than Bassa's proposal.

It is far too simplistic to announce that Bassa got what they wanted so why the fuss.

And because of this naive attitude I question if your motivation goes beyond what is best for customer, company and crew. Am I being too simplistic to ask - is your motivation only what is best for the company and screw the rest?
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Old 1st Jul 2009, 12:44
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I fail to understand the comment that "We are to become New Fleet". That is BASSA rhetoric at its' worst, and lacks any substance. Here is my quick on the back of an envelope assessment of the BA Proposal, which is a long way off making us New Fleet.

There are positives and it is important not to lose sight of those:

No New Fleet
This was the biggest threat to our jobs that we have ever encountered. The fact that it has gone does mean our jobs are no longer under threat.

No Pay Cut
The company are asking us to work harder (a lot!) to get more productivity, but they are NOT reducing our pay, which, in the current climate is something to be grateful for.

No Compulsory Redundancies
At the moment, we are not facing compulsory redundancies. Again under the current climate, this is something we have to keep in perspective and be thankful for.

Like it or not there are certain things that have to be accepted:
Pay freeze this was offered by Unite originally so we have to lump it.
ORP This was inevitable and is necessary to keep the business afloat so ACCEPT.
Crew Complements We can and have to work harder to make the necessary cost savings.
Many crew I talk to would rather lose crew onboard than lose pay. There is perhaps room for some minor adjustments to retaining crew, but then ACCEPT

WW Rest Downroute
UNITE need to negotiate this on the basis of 900hr restriction. BA have to pay A.N.Y Crewmember to stay in a hotel, and for their allowances. I fail to see how putting two crew in over 2 nights, as opposed to 1 crew member over 2 nights can save money. In addition it will have repercussions on the 900hr limit. Therefore UNITE have a good argument here and need to NEGOTIATE

EF Finish Time 2200 ACCEPT

EF Reduction in Days off
Giving up one day off a month is a huge loss, and warrants something in return. . Alternative options could include offering fixed links in exchange for retaining days off. NEGOTIATE HARD

Fixed Monthly Duty Payment
This does have benefits to crew in the form of guaranteed pay when on leave, sick, etc. Also benefits our pension so therefore NEGOTIATE a decent rate and accept.

Promotion Prospects
A lot of people joined BA for the promotion prospects. Therefore the Rate on New contract Supervisor has to be beneficial for existing main crew to aspire to it. Therefore NEGOTIATE a rate to be beneficial for all.

We are paying UNITE to negotiate and not to simply call Strike! at the first hurdle. Hard negotiation, hopefully now with ACAS to mediate, is essential to achieve the best possible outcome for cabin crew.
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