British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[Nutjob]

CFC

I'll try and be as respectful as I can but it just seems like the same old, same old from you. Long on accusations and short on facts. Please, please, please put us uneducated idiots out of our misery.

1. Why will the BASSA plan work?
2. Why will the BA plan fail?
3. Is there definitely a mechanism in place that will ruin BA's SOSR plan? If so, what is it?
4. Have BASSA done an anonymous survey (not the pressurised GMM "everyone vote to reject BA's proposals" show of hands) as to what percentage of crew are prepared to go out on strike?
5. Why will those hoping for Voluntary Redundancy strike, as their VR rests on crew agreeing cost-savings with BA?
6. Why will those hoping for part-time strike (see point 5).
7. What percentage of crew are non-union members and cannot be surveyed / counted upon to strike?
8. What percentage of crew are CC89 members?
9. Have CC89 polled to find out the support levels as above?
10. What percentage of Gatwick crew will strike, as many feel aggrieved and the changes affect them in a relatively small way?

Please educate us. I KEEP asking for real information and informed replies but I just get rhetoric. If you can answer the questions above, I feel we'll all have a far better idea of how this might play out. I look forward to being informed by you.

[deeceethree]

CFC,

If you can't provide the answers to the questions put to you, and you just can't stand people who have valid, suportable views and opinions, then please feel absolutely free to continue your previous posture of "Having given this forum a miss for a while .....".

[Glamgirl]

CFC,

I have a perfectly valid reason not to post on "other" forums, and that is for my personal safety. Having read the posts on CF, I can't help but feel concerned for my safety. Several posters threatened with physical violence if they found out who I was. Considering the people who run that forum knows the full name and staff number of each member, it wouldn't take many brain cells to figure out how easy it would be for my name to be "published". Same as the previous name and shame projects that have happened.

So there you have the reason for me not posting over there.

As for my opinion, I'm entitled to my opinion, as much as you are entitled to yours. Time will tell who's more informed about the company, laws and consequences. I will stand by what I've said on this thread.

I'm very interested in your response to Nutjob. Please do come and answer those questions. If you're able to, it will earn you some respect instead of attacking me instead.

Gg

[Desertia]

Goog on you, GlamGirl

I'm afraid it's a trait of trade unions the world over to use threats of violence, intimidation, etc., usually in situations where their arguments are so poorly thought out, or perhaps even hijacked by the Dave Spart-style trouble-makers, that many (even the majority) of members can see right through them. What better way to silence dissent in the ranks than a couple of smashed windows, slashed tyres, etc.?

I can fully understand why you wouldn't post in there under these circumstances, and you need to make no public or private apology to anyone for ignoring these loathsome people.

I can equally understand why people like CFC, miffed at how their ill-conceived plan is turning out, can only squeal at "the worse management BA have ever had" (subjective as ever), when most sensible people involved with the airline, along with the shareholders, are finally glad that this previously over-influential little cartel of leeches is finally being reined in.

I'm only speaking as a passenger but it's the attitude of these people that's put me of flying BA. I'd happily reconsider if the dragons are slain by St. Willie <heh>

[Nutjob]

CFC

I see you've been online. Any chance you could address my questions so I can be put straight on where this dispute is going. I know you're sick of the uneducated rantings on here, so I'd really appreciate you putting us all right.

Look forward to your reply.

[Human Factor]

CFC is online now. Would be interested to hear his/her answers to the questions above.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by Ancient Observer

What I don't understand is that when I've been involved in them, we've talked to the relevant TUs all the way through. Tactically, that has helped the employer, the employees and the TUs. The folk impacted should be the primary focus of all in these bad times.

I'm puzzled by what's on this thread about the HR1s. Either BA have not talked to BASSA, or BASSA are being economical with the truth about what the HR 1s mean.

Bear in mind that for most of the duration of the negotiating period BASSAs strategy was to stonewall BA, deny there was a problem and hope the situation would go away. Their mantra was "temporary solutions for a temporary problem" and they muddied the waters by trying to blame BAs economic strife not on the global recession but price fixing fines and fuel hedging. As a result of this by the end of the period they'd had barely four hours of face to face talks with BA. Only once they realised they weren't going to be put back in the "too difficult" box did they start to offer a few sops to BA hoping it might allow BA to save face and BASSA to rescaped unscathed. Sadly for them they were not dealing with a boardroom that was short of resolve, which is why they are now floundering and desperately trying to find some sort of face saving solution for themselves.

What many outside observers underestimate is the totality of the state of denial many crew are in. The idea that things won't go BASSAs way is unthinkable. When cracks in their 'groupthink' appear, doubts voiced by those who've done their own research, they are shouted down: not with facts, but with the tiresomely familiar cries of "BASSA will have done everything correctly, nothing can go wrong if we stick together". I quote one example of the brainwashing:

They are ****ing themselves and it makes them feel better to say Bassa are useless when in fact they are the strongest Union in Europe!!"

What can you say? In addition the union zealots continue to construct their own fantasy world in which everyone is conspiring against them:

The pilot community by and large desperately needs us to comply with the Company proposals and will use all tactics available to them....including all the usual pro company transparent crap. BALPA took their bag of silver so its now over to us, yet again, to get the job done.

Note the mistaken belief that somehow the pilots need to the cabin crew to agree to cuts, presumably to keep our 'cushy' deal, a deliberate piece of propaganda concocted by BASSA to tap into an unpleasant vein of sentiment amongst their supporters. Also note the bizarre belief that BASSA will 'get the job done', despite the fact that in the last two significant negotiations BASSA have taken part in they have been overruled by the TGWU (last strike ballot) and entirely dependent on BALPA to preserve their pensions (previous pension reform talks). The reality is that BASSA is out of ideas and out of time. Their fate is largely out of their hands, and the other unions aren't going to suffer as a result of their intransigence. BASSA will be required to deliver their savings target, in full, and it seems a shame that the majority of crew I fly with, who have no interest in striking or bankrupting their employee, are likely to suffer due to the actions of a small band of union reps and a minority of vociferous supporters.

[am i bothered]

LOL either you are pilot and people are saying to you they wont strike so as not to get into argument

Or you are a manager and trying to spread the message that support is not there.

Either way its nonsense.

The record turn out at a meeting, approx 20% of the membership should give you an indication as to how much support there is, which is phemominial as each night there are prob over 5000 crew down route plus commuters etc who wouldnt attend.

Some of you pretend to have the facts, claim to have the higher intellectual standing, yet many of these posts are beyond the ridiculous.

[Andyismyname]

Right on cue perhaps yet another example of ostrich like thinking. They do not want to hear anything other than 'Bassa 100%' etc.

How very sad.

[flibbertyjibbet]

100% support does not necessarily win an industrial dispute. Ask the miners, or the dockers.

BASSA members HAVE to understand a few things before yet again rubbishing any contrary statement. (And yes, I am a pilot, one who is concerned for a number of my friends)

1. BA do NOT need to talk to BASSA any more. The date of 30th June was not a start date for talks, but a conclusion date after 4 months of negotiation (which BASSA stonewalled)
2. ACAS are NOT going to come in imposing a solution.
3. BA have satisfied the SOSR/HR1 requirements, and will be able to impose, without any huge legal risk, any new contract they feel is commensurate with the current economic climate.
4. The man on the street doesn't give a damn about the "unionists" of BASSA. They have their own problems, primarily because EVERYONE else is being squeezed.
5. If C/C do go on strike, you'll have to be prepared;
a) Have you a personal strike fund to tide you over for at least a month (maybe more)?
b) If you go out on strike, are you prepared to be sacked and to have to fight for unfair dismissal?
c) Are you ready for an unscupulous BA management to agitate strongly against the strikers, showing the most senior CSD's huddled around a chiminea whilst their au pairs look after the children?
d) Are you ready for writs and legal action threats?

I fear for you, whether or not your case is just. BA have prepared thoroughly for this strike, and if it were to go ahead, I have no doubt it would go very nasty very quickly.

RESEARCH THE RISKS AND POSSIBLE CONCLUSIONS

BTW, I'd be honoured to be castigated by the cognoscenti of pprune, just do it using facts rather than rhetoric, please?

[Nutjob]

AiB

As you seem to be so well-informed, maybe you could have a go at the questions I posted above. I'll even re-print them for you.

1. Why will the BASSA plan work?
2. Why will the BA plan fail?
3. Is there definitely a mechanism in place that will ruin BA's SOSR plan? If so, what is it?
4. Have BASSA done an anonymous survey (not the pressurised GMM "everyone vote to reject BA's proposals" show of hands) as to what percentage of crew are prepared to go out on strike?
5. Why will those hoping for Voluntary Redundancy strike, as their VR rests on crew agreeing cost-savings with BA?
6. Why will those hoping for part-time strike (see point 5).
7. What percentage of crew are non-union members and cannot be surveyed / counted upon to strike?
8. What percentage of crew are CC89 members?
9. Have CC89 polled to find out the support levels as above?
10. What percentage of Gatwick crew will strike, as many feel aggrieved and the changes affect them in a relatively small way?

So there you are, AiB. Instead of scoffing at people's backgrounds as below, you now have the chance to prove your worth and your greater knowledge and really show just how well-prepared you and your union are by answering the questions above. They're quite simple.

LOL either you are pilot and people are saying to you they wont strike so as not to get into argument

Or you are a manager and trying to spread the message that support is not there.

Either way its nonsense.

Devoid of facts, long on accusations.

The record turn out at a meeting, approx 20% of the membership should give you an indication as to how much support there is, which is phemominial as each night there are prob over 5000 crew down route plus commuters etc who wouldnt attend.

No, it doesn't really give an indication of how people will vote. Months have passed, crew are better informed and the ballot wasn't secret but public and intimidatory. Once again, short on actual facts. We're giving you every opportunity here, you know.

Some of you pretend to have the facts, claim to have the higher intellectual standing, yet many of these posts are beyond the ridiculous.

So please, post "facts" and show them up for the ill-informed "ridiculous" posts they are.

Come on, you know you can do it. Step up to the plate with CFC.

[Nutjob]

AiB

Also, you failed to reply to my question on p73. I'll re print it for you...

Quote Am i Bothered:
This is not about savings and that is quite clear. Anyone with average intelligence would realize that. So the longer this goes on the better cos the more it invalidates the argument.

So what is it about? Please be clear. Why does time invalidate the argument? Because of the "recovery"? If so, can I assume that a further downturn will have you claiming that Willie's stance is more relevant?

[wobble2plank]

I love the BASSA mentality that they have 'seen out' the 90 day notice and nothing has happened so they must have the upper hand as the nasty little Irishman and his horde of incompetent blue chip managers haven't acted yet.

There might be a little tiny fly in the ointment though. The fact that the company is, currently, working on the winter 09, summer 10 and winter 10 schedules to assess the flight draw down and hence the crewing levels.

So, sadly, the 'we will wait them out and grind them down until the recession is over' stance of BASSA isn't going to work.

Before BA can announce redundancy numbers they need the schedules to obtain the crewing levels. Other unions have been warned about this but BASSA is still embroiled in its own La La land negotiations.

The next couple of months will be critical for many airlines. Skyeurope has kicked off the failures after a poor summer season, expect many more. BA will show its hand when it has the figures to be able to do so.

Personally I think they are culling the wrong part of the tree both in Flight Crew and Cabin crew. We have been here before and the culling that worked and produced the profits came from over bloated management structures. However before we see that I think the CC will have their streamlining and BASSA have prevented many from taking the VR option.

Sad.

P.S. Forgot to add, it is a MINIMUM mandatory notice of 90 days. That means, after BASSA failed to negotiate an agreed settlement, that the company can pursue redundancies from now onwards.

[T5 Mole]

You're not wrong W2P - Lufhansa operates a more complex operation with fewer management and non-frontline staff.

However, that is not the point of the thread; the point remains that costs exceed the competition and the union has failed to negotiate or prepare its membership for a reasonable compromise.

I'm not sure anyone would want the never-ending death-spiral of United / Delta / US Airways to come to BA, but that is the consequence. Service will become indifferent, crew will be unmotivated and won't be injected with young blood, and young competitors will spring up again, picking off the best routes and revenue opportunities.

The cause will be the complex combination of management, union and regulatory failure.

Bye bye BA.

[keel beam]

News from the outside world

Considering how a few months back there was doom and gloom about the state of BA, things do look a little brighter.

But while negotiations have seemed to have been painfully slow, changes could be afoot in the "outside" world

Cash-strapped Lufthansa could sell BMI to Virgin - Telegraph

I know the essence of the above article has been mentioned in other threads, but everyone should not be complacent of BA's good position at LHR.

If Virgin should be offered to buy BMI (not that I think they have the finance available) and it is a BIG if, it will change the landscape at LHR. More costs will have to be cut, jobs lost. This latest cost cutting will be a mere walk in the park compared to what may happen if Virgin gain a substantial slot gain at LHR.

[Ancient Observer]

Carnage,
thanks. I hadn't realised how bad it was.

That's not how most parts of Aviation work, and it's a million miles from how the rest of the UK TUs work.........When I worked in Aviation I thought BALPA were dinosaurs - clearly in terms of the worlds of dinosaurs, BAs crew reps in BASSA are the expert dinosaurs, (or dodos?).

I withdraw my thought that BALPA were dinosaurs. Maybe just antiques?

[overstress]

LOL either you are pilot and people are saying to you they wont strike so as not to get into argument

Who is LOL? Has his posting been deleted?

[am i bothered]

Ok where do I start lol.

First of all this is to me is not about the pilots deal. I do not begrudge the pilots terms and conditions whatsoever and as far as I am concerned their issues are their issues and good CRM is essential.


1. The deadline for the 30th June was a self imposed deadline. The fact that more talks are scheduled for the end of the month concludes the fact that talks will go beyond this date. The reason being apart from engineers and pilots no deal has been struck with the other departments.

As for the union being made to look foolish for turning up for talks after this date I beg to differ. It was broadcasted on sky news that one side didnt turn up even though we are supposedly in a fight for survival. This was repeated through out the morning until they decided to call in Acas.

Why were ACAS called in before a failure to agree had been registered??

The Agm the following week could have been a contributing factor for face saving purposes.

2. Acas are not coming to impose a solution. Correct me if I am wrong but both sides I thought had to agree for the findings to binding.

3. SOSR is something I dont know too much about but am keen on researching it further. An alternative proposal has been offered which believe it or not offers a lot of savings and improved productivity. The issue here is not the amount of savings but how the savings are to be achieved.

4. Forced redundancies could be imposed but this is a very messy area as this prohibits further recruitment for a minimum period and could seriously hamper the operation when extra man power is required.

4. The man on the street is interesting but everyone needs to look after themselves in this life. If people have a tool to prevent being exploited then let them use it.

5. If we are in so much dire straits as this thread suggests then why would a strike fund be necessary. A company that has been offered in excess of 150 million in savings turns it down then is prepared to utilize a war chest is not fighting for survival.

If employees are dismissed for taking part in legal strike action then this will back fire and the strike I presume will continue until all are re instated just like what happened at Total.

Also with regards to the external audit if this was as one sided as some seem to think, then why was this not plastered all over corporate media channels??


Also talks were not stonewalled as some describe. Alternative offers were presented yet one side refused to budge one iota.

Also with regards to them being well prepared. I beg to differ. Terminal 5 need I say any more.

[Flap33]

3. SOSR is something I dont know too much about but am keen on researching it further. An alternative proposal has been offered which believe it or not offers a lot of savings and improved productivity. The issue here is not the amount of savings but how the savings are to be achieved.


Oh dear me, I think you better get your nose in the books ASAP

As regard to T5, it was a disaster - no other way to assess it's opening. That said, don't you think it might be possible that it taught BA to check, and double check any future event? The worst thing that could have happened to BASSA was a smooth opening of T5 thus hiding any BA weak spots.

For what its worth, why haven't BASSA told you about SOSR since it's going to be used against the Cabin Crew immenently.

[am i bothered]

What would the defence be for SOSR??

It would have been used time and time again if it was that simple. The fact is it is not so you can take advantage of my lack of knowledge on the subject but I am not buying it.

The legal team are responsible for making sure everything is above board and then advise the membership accordingly. Unites legal team are known to be one of the best in the business.

Also you have picked on the one area of weakness in my posting without debating any of the other issues. An issue to which I put my hands up to not knowing too much about. Ten out of ten for observation but a Poor effort!!