British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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...to any BA forward bookings.
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Apart from forward bookings being low, what about the £££££££££ in refunds that BA will have to repay for all of the cancellations over Christmas? Or is the poor, forgotten, paying customer supposed to claim on his/her insurance?
Come on guys, climb down from your ivory towers & start talking. As WSC said, 'JAW, JAW not WAR, WAR!
Come on guys, climb down from your ivory towers & start talking. As WSC said, 'JAW, JAW not WAR, WAR!
Last edited by fincastle84; 16th Nov 2009 at 11:04. Reason: sp.
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what about the £££££££££ in refunds that BA will have to repay for all of the cancellations over Christmas?
FORCE MAJEURE
"Force Majeure" means, in relation to ********, any circumstances beyond the reasonable control of ********, including, but without limitation, war or threat of war, declared or undeclared, acts of terrorism, STRIKE, riot, government intervention, crime or acts of God (flooding, forceful winds, earthquake, volcano) or other events or conditions.
(N.B. the capitalisation is mine, only for emphasis).
(Arguably if ******** is BA, not a travel agent, they might still have a case!).
But do you not think that BA have made provisions for this? They received financial backing on the basis of the cuts to operationals costs they intended to make.
Do you think for one minute that the institutions that are financially supporting them did not consider that industrial action might arise?
There is no point in "JAW, JAW", as you put it, if one side refuses to even listen. And I fear the "WAR, WAR", is going to be equally one-sided - but at least short.
Last edited by Desertia; 16th Nov 2009 at 11:41. Reason: Explanation
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Desertia,
Thanks for keeping up my spirits. I will much prefer celebrating my 25th wedding anniversary in Cape Town rather than sitting around T-5. I just hope that the 'militants' will have a burst of common sense/ conscience before they ruin Christmas for a few 100 thousand people.
Thanks for keeping up my spirits. I will much prefer celebrating my 25th wedding anniversary in Cape Town rather than sitting around T-5. I just hope that the 'militants' will have a burst of common sense/ conscience before they ruin Christmas for a few 100 thousand people.
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Although I am ONLY a BA customer I have spent my life working in the aviation industry, initially flying in the RAF & latterly working for a small airline based at BOH, which sadly failed last year due to the economic climate. I therefore have first hand experience of being unemployed!
I fail to understand BASSA's position during these difficult times. As BA is haemorrhaging money daily how will closing down the company improve either the balance sheet or pay the wage bill? Once the strike is over, what are their plans for regaining the loyalty of their passengers who have just enjoyed a ruined Christmas?
I apologise if this seems a simplistic series of questions but your detailed replies may help me to understand exactly what is going on. Come on you BASSA folk, let's here your answers to these important questions, PLEASE!
I fail to understand BASSA's position during these difficult times. As BA is haemorrhaging money daily how will closing down the company improve either the balance sheet or pay the wage bill? Once the strike is over, what are their plans for regaining the loyalty of their passengers who have just enjoyed a ruined Christmas?
I apologise if this seems a simplistic series of questions but your detailed replies may help me to understand exactly what is going on. Come on you BASSA folk, let's here your answers to these important questions, PLEASE!
Last edited by fincastle84; 16th Nov 2009 at 19:55. Reason: punctuation
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On day 1 of the strike how many long haul crew are going to jeopardise £800 net for a HKG/SIN/BKK/SYD just prior to xmas.Think of that on short haul as you go out on strike or on a back to back.How much solidarity is there going to be.This time a YES vote in a strike ballot means nothing.Its actually what you are prepared to do on the day.BA aren`t going to cave in just because you all voted yes.Where would the airline be then - still with the same financial problems.If you go on strike you personally risk losing everything.For working a little bit harder you are prepared to pander to the egos in Bassa and its militants.How many of them will have arranged not to be at work on that day.Your future is in your hands , don`t do it. VOTE NO.
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Fincastle
I think you need, like BA, to sit on your hands and see what happens, I know it's hard.
There is no promise of a strike and until the votes have been counted I suggest you just wait.
If history repeats itself there is no guarantee that there will be a strike even if there is a substantial yes vote.
Voting yes is a lot different to going on strike.
Of course WW could close the airline down but that is one option of many.
He could sack the first strikers, as others have pointed out, and let them fight unfair dismissal in the courts.
I believe he is too canny for either of these options and has his own powder up his sleeve.
If WW does nothing, what are BASSA going to do?
Talk to him?
As your booking is with BA, I feel that were there to be any significant disruption they would do their best to find alternative ways of getting you to your destination.
That is why you have booked with a full service airline rather than one of the low cost alternatives.
Finnair pilots are currently on strike and the only passengers suffering serious disruption are those on the thin long distance domestic services that do not make a profit.
The low cost operators do not want to run services on these routes even when Finnair is on strike.
Charter passengers are not affected and international passengers are being rebooked on other airlines.
I think you need, like BA, to sit on your hands and see what happens, I know it's hard.
There is no promise of a strike and until the votes have been counted I suggest you just wait.
If history repeats itself there is no guarantee that there will be a strike even if there is a substantial yes vote.
Voting yes is a lot different to going on strike.
Of course WW could close the airline down but that is one option of many.
He could sack the first strikers, as others have pointed out, and let them fight unfair dismissal in the courts.
I believe he is too canny for either of these options and has his own powder up his sleeve.
If WW does nothing, what are BASSA going to do?
Talk to him?
As your booking is with BA, I feel that were there to be any significant disruption they would do their best to find alternative ways of getting you to your destination.
That is why you have booked with a full service airline rather than one of the low cost alternatives.
Finnair pilots are currently on strike and the only passengers suffering serious disruption are those on the thin long distance domestic services that do not make a profit.
The low cost operators do not want to run services on these routes even when Finnair is on strike.
Charter passengers are not affected and international passengers are being rebooked on other airlines.
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Imposition Update in the news
From the witless Steve Turner:
""Unite is so concerned about the impact of these cuts on both crew and paying customers, that we have instructed employment specialists to establish an independent system to monitor their impact over the coming period.""
The equally clueless Brian Boyd is quoted here:
"Unite, the U.K.'s largest union, on Monday issued ballot papers to its more than 12,000-strong cabin crew membership within British Airways PLC (BAY.LN).
The ballot papers are being issued on the same day that BA begins to impose far-reaching changes to in-flight crew working practices, changes which Unite says are not only unworkable but are also contractual and so must be negotiated, not imposed.
"We ask British Airways to signal that they are willing to abandon their plans to impose change and work with us on a way forward, one which delivers for passengers, shareholders and the workforce. Then we could begin to tackle the roots of this damaging dispute and find a way forward," said Unite national officer for aviation, Brian Boyd. "
Sorry Brian. I think you've already had the signal. It's called imposition. Didn't you know it was coming?
And more churlish BASSA behaviour quoted here:
"British Airways has fired a warning shot at the union that began balloting 14,000 cabin crew on industrial action yesterday.
In a letter to Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, the joint general secretaries of Unite, BA said that it would not tolerate union members promoting strike action while at work.
BA said that during previous ballots, staff had put stickers saying “vote yes” on passenger luggage and even on aircraft interiors.
Bill O’Shaughnessy, head of industrial relations, said that BA would reserve the right to recover cleaning costs from the union and would also consider criminal damage charges against individuals.
BA staff have also been forbidden from wearing badges on their uniforms promoting the union or strike action and are banned from handing out leaflets on company property.
A union representative mocked the warning in an e-mail to members, saying that BA was threatening criminal charges for “the heinous crime of sticker ownership”.
Read all the gory details at the following links:
http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/buisness/union-issues-ballot-papers-to-ba-crew-$1340788.htm
Cabin Crew Ballot Opens As BA Imposes Contractual Changes - WSJ.com
BA puts pressure on cabin crew as strike ballot begins - Times Online
You can plaster all the stickers you want, BASSA, but the sensible ones know the correct call is:
VOTE NO AND RESIGN FROM BASSA!
""Unite is so concerned about the impact of these cuts on both crew and paying customers, that we have instructed employment specialists to establish an independent system to monitor their impact over the coming period.""
The equally clueless Brian Boyd is quoted here:
"Unite, the U.K.'s largest union, on Monday issued ballot papers to its more than 12,000-strong cabin crew membership within British Airways PLC (BAY.LN).
The ballot papers are being issued on the same day that BA begins to impose far-reaching changes to in-flight crew working practices, changes which Unite says are not only unworkable but are also contractual and so must be negotiated, not imposed.
"We ask British Airways to signal that they are willing to abandon their plans to impose change and work with us on a way forward, one which delivers for passengers, shareholders and the workforce. Then we could begin to tackle the roots of this damaging dispute and find a way forward," said Unite national officer for aviation, Brian Boyd. "
Sorry Brian. I think you've already had the signal. It's called imposition. Didn't you know it was coming?
And more churlish BASSA behaviour quoted here:
"British Airways has fired a warning shot at the union that began balloting 14,000 cabin crew on industrial action yesterday.
In a letter to Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, the joint general secretaries of Unite, BA said that it would not tolerate union members promoting strike action while at work.
BA said that during previous ballots, staff had put stickers saying “vote yes” on passenger luggage and even on aircraft interiors.
Bill O’Shaughnessy, head of industrial relations, said that BA would reserve the right to recover cleaning costs from the union and would also consider criminal damage charges against individuals.
BA staff have also been forbidden from wearing badges on their uniforms promoting the union or strike action and are banned from handing out leaflets on company property.
A union representative mocked the warning in an e-mail to members, saying that BA was threatening criminal charges for “the heinous crime of sticker ownership”.
Read all the gory details at the following links:
http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/buisness/union-issues-ballot-papers-to-ba-crew-$1340788.htm
Cabin Crew Ballot Opens As BA Imposes Contractual Changes - WSJ.com
BA puts pressure on cabin crew as strike ballot begins - Times Online
You can plaster all the stickers you want, BASSA, but the sensible ones know the correct call is:
VOTE NO AND RESIGN FROM BASSA!
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7Heroes wrote:
My Bold: Incorrect 7H...If we do not go on strike we risk losing everything.
All along we have said as a workforce we do not mind working a bit harder, along with many other suggestions on how to make savings. Willie is just not interested.
Feelings amongst my many flying friends is now runninin high ... we just cannot wait for the ballot to arrive ... to vote YES
On day 1 of the strike how many long haul crew are going to jeopardise £800 net for a HKG/SIN/BKK/SYD just prior to xmas.Think of that on short haul as you go out on strike or on a back to back.How much solidarity is there going to be.This time a YES vote in a strike ballot means nothing.Its actually what you are prepared to do on the day.BA aren`t going to cave in just because you all voted yes.Where would the airline be then - still with the same financial problems.If you go on strike you personally risk losing everything.For working a little bit harder you are prepared to pander to the egos in Bassa and its militants.How many of them will have arranged not to be at work on that day.Your future is in your hands , don`t do it. VOTE NO
All along we have said as a workforce we do not mind working a bit harder, along with many other suggestions on how to make savings. Willie is just not interested.
Feelings amongst my many flying friends is now runninin high ... we just cannot wait for the ballot to arrive ... to vote YES
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CFC - In a nutshell it shows how out of ideas the BASSA leadership are.
I mean look at this little nugget: "You have to vote YES if you want to say NO to IMPOSITION and a tyrannical management that is driving our company into the ground quite literally."
If Dave Spart didn't write that it must have been copied off the Workers Revolutionary Party website. All it needs is a few "....er...."'s in it and gratuitous use of the word "proletariat" for heaven's sake.
You conclude from this that BA are running scared? I have to say, you are ever the optimist.
I conclude from this that BA are putting their (shareholders) money where Willie Walsh's mouth is.
But then again, I think they've already proven that by blocking an injuction and imposing.
And you still don't get the message?\
Incredible.
I mean look at this little nugget: "You have to vote YES if you want to say NO to IMPOSITION and a tyrannical management that is driving our company into the ground quite literally."
If Dave Spart didn't write that it must have been copied off the Workers Revolutionary Party website. All it needs is a few "....er...."'s in it and gratuitous use of the word "proletariat" for heaven's sake.
You conclude from this that BA are running scared? I have to say, you are ever the optimist.
I conclude from this that BA are putting their (shareholders) money where Willie Walsh's mouth is.
But then again, I think they've already proven that by blocking an injuction and imposing.
And you still don't get the message?\
Incredible.
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All along we have said as a workforce we do not mind working a bit harder, along with many other suggestions on how to make savings.
Here's a question:
Can you give me THREE, yes only three, of the "many other" suggestions to make savings, and the calculations used to quantify them?
I don't expect an answer other than a brush off, because I suspect we both know you can't do it, don't we?
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CFC, once again you show a fantastic 'Lord Mellchet' attitude towards the facts staring you in the face. I am impressed!
BASSA have 'won' their day in court? How does that line get out? I could take my neighbor to court because I don't like the shape of their trees. Not sensible but, in a democracy, it is my right to complain. Quite how many seconds it would take the Judge to harangue me for wasting the courts time is another thing! So, BASSA have won nothing by getting their case to court, they lost the injunction and now the courts will decide on the whole case with a bit more planning. I hope BASSA get a good QC because I know BA have one!
'BA are running scared'. Another gem! Anyone who has been in BA for more than 5 minutes knows that BASSA shouts 'Strike' the second anything comes remotely near to threatening the over paid part time CSD's at LHR who run BASSA. Why do you think that BA management have NOT expected this action since embarking on the concept of project Columbus? They know exactly what BASSA will do and are contriving to ensure that BASSA if not Unite will bear the brunt of exorbitant costs making them powerless for years. BA are not running scared if anything there is almost an air of apathy about a strike, 'oh well another CC strike, yawn'.
'Look at Iberia, give us their market rate plus 10%'. Yep, let's take a close look at how Iberia are cutting costs. Why are the Iberia CC striking? Well, it could be close to home as Iberia are shutting down their regional and short haul airlines. Closing down the AOC and re-introducing the whole concept as a totally new airline with a new AOC. So, how does this affect the crews? Well, as in Alitalia, a change of company and AOC means nullification of existing contracts and sending all employees home. That means sacking ALL employees and only re-employing those they wish to have back on the 'new' contract. Sound familiar? It is a step BA haven't yet taken. Before anyone starts bleating that 'at least that will affect those in the front' SELPA have already negotiated identical contracts as the previous contracts for the flight crew. This is the advantage of negotiation.
So, enjoy your Ballot. It is a dangerous step you are taking to protect those who have sat at the top for so many years and are quite prepared to sacrifice the masses and walk away without a backwards glance.
BASSA have 'won' their day in court? How does that line get out? I could take my neighbor to court because I don't like the shape of their trees. Not sensible but, in a democracy, it is my right to complain. Quite how many seconds it would take the Judge to harangue me for wasting the courts time is another thing! So, BASSA have won nothing by getting their case to court, they lost the injunction and now the courts will decide on the whole case with a bit more planning. I hope BASSA get a good QC because I know BA have one!
'BA are running scared'. Another gem! Anyone who has been in BA for more than 5 minutes knows that BASSA shouts 'Strike' the second anything comes remotely near to threatening the over paid part time CSD's at LHR who run BASSA. Why do you think that BA management have NOT expected this action since embarking on the concept of project Columbus? They know exactly what BASSA will do and are contriving to ensure that BASSA if not Unite will bear the brunt of exorbitant costs making them powerless for years. BA are not running scared if anything there is almost an air of apathy about a strike, 'oh well another CC strike, yawn'.
'Look at Iberia, give us their market rate plus 10%'. Yep, let's take a close look at how Iberia are cutting costs. Why are the Iberia CC striking? Well, it could be close to home as Iberia are shutting down their regional and short haul airlines. Closing down the AOC and re-introducing the whole concept as a totally new airline with a new AOC. So, how does this affect the crews? Well, as in Alitalia, a change of company and AOC means nullification of existing contracts and sending all employees home. That means sacking ALL employees and only re-employing those they wish to have back on the 'new' contract. Sound familiar? It is a step BA haven't yet taken. Before anyone starts bleating that 'at least that will affect those in the front' SELPA have already negotiated identical contracts as the previous contracts for the flight crew. This is the advantage of negotiation.
So, enjoy your Ballot. It is a dangerous step you are taking to protect those who have sat at the top for so many years and are quite prepared to sacrifice the masses and walk away without a backwards glance.