British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Lurker,
I'm surprised I have to draw the distinction between BASSA's public announcements and the underlying subterfuge that they certainly won't want published - and I include coercion in this.
As I've said, the BASSA faithful are the ones willing to lead younger, newer crew into a suicidal strike in order to protect their cushy little numbers.
I doubt what they say to each other is what they say to the cannon fodder.
We already know just how economical with the truth they are to their own membership.
And given their track record, I do not expect the BASSA mouthpieces on here to be on the picket line come day one, despite their bluster to the contrary.
BASSA has picked a fight it can't win.
Which is why sensible employees who want to participate in the company's future must VOTE NO and RESIGN FROM BASSA!
I'm surprised I have to draw the distinction between BASSA's public announcements and the underlying subterfuge that they certainly won't want published - and I include coercion in this.
As I've said, the BASSA faithful are the ones willing to lead younger, newer crew into a suicidal strike in order to protect their cushy little numbers.
I doubt what they say to each other is what they say to the cannon fodder.
We already know just how economical with the truth they are to their own membership.
And given their track record, I do not expect the BASSA mouthpieces on here to be on the picket line come day one, despite their bluster to the contrary.
BASSA has picked a fight it can't win.
Which is why sensible employees who want to participate in the company's future must VOTE NO and RESIGN FROM BASSA!
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Desertia
What are you on about? You made a posting with an incorrect comment which was pointed out to you - No need to throw your toys out of the pram old chap - and I really cannot see the point of you comparing BA CC as "cannon fodder" and a "suicidal strike" - it's not the Charge of The Light Brigade - You have been watching too many Hollywood Blockbusters old boy.
BASSA may or may not "win" its fight - but what you seem unable to grasp is the fact that if the Crew do nothing, they will lose everything anyway - if they go on strike and gain some concession back from BA then it would have been worthwhile because as it stands in a couple of years time their job will be changed beyond all recognition.
The strike option is their ONLY option - unless they all come to their senses and thrash out an agreement - that is an agreement, not imposed changes.
What are you on about? You made a posting with an incorrect comment which was pointed out to you - No need to throw your toys out of the pram old chap - and I really cannot see the point of you comparing BA CC as "cannon fodder" and a "suicidal strike" - it's not the Charge of The Light Brigade - You have been watching too many Hollywood Blockbusters old boy.
BASSA may or may not "win" its fight - but what you seem unable to grasp is the fact that if the Crew do nothing, they will lose everything anyway - if they go on strike and gain some concession back from BA then it would have been worthwhile because as it stands in a couple of years time their job will be changed beyond all recognition.
The strike option is their ONLY option - unless they all come to their senses and thrash out an agreement - that is an agreement, not imposed changes.
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The principal problem the crew have here is that their union leadership absolutely, steadfastly refuse to meet BAs cost savings targets. The whole thing could have been resolved by June 30th, with the original £82M target met, the new fleet threat neutralised and no strike. Instead, BASSAs posture was no negotiation, "What recession?" and "Temporary solutions for temporary problems". Even after the deadline expired, they were still pressing for a show of hands in support of a no negotiation stance at their union rallies. Given that it's abundantly clear that BASSA are not prepared to contribute their share of the savings by negotiaton, the only option open to BA is imposition, and if you going to impose and risk a strike you might as well impose everything you want, rather than just everything you need.
BASSA, and to an extent the crew themselves, have backed themselves into this corner. They have wound themselves up with their apocalyptic rhetoric and their unchallenged belief that all negotiation with BA must be a 'zero sum' game. I'm sure BA would prefer to avoid a strike, but they recognise that the BASSA beast is incapable of change when change is essential, so it's best to lance the boil now and get the healing process underway. Sadly unless the majority of crew come to their senses they will be the authors of their own demise.
BASSA, and to an extent the crew themselves, have backed themselves into this corner. They have wound themselves up with their apocalyptic rhetoric and their unchallenged belief that all negotiation with BA must be a 'zero sum' game. I'm sure BA would prefer to avoid a strike, but they recognise that the BASSA beast is incapable of change when change is essential, so it's best to lance the boil now and get the healing process underway. Sadly unless the majority of crew come to their senses they will be the authors of their own demise.
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Carnage - I agree with you to a degree, however I also truly believe that BA themselves want this dispute, for the following reasons.
1 For a short lived pain (ie strike) they may end up in a position where they have pretty much eliminated the Cabin Crew trades union and smashed their current agreements
2 Due to the massive funding gap in the pension pot - the only way they are going to be able to fund the deficit is from a severely reduced cost base - of which wages are a principal sum
3 Once they have broken the trades union they can pretty much work their Cabin Crew to scheme
They have already started breaking long standing promotions and opportunity agreements this week - even before the ballot results are in - they will not stop there until they have got exactly what they want.
Yes people have been backed into a corner, however it is not just BASSA that has done this BA themselves want this dispute - in my opinion of course!
1 For a short lived pain (ie strike) they may end up in a position where they have pretty much eliminated the Cabin Crew trades union and smashed their current agreements
2 Due to the massive funding gap in the pension pot - the only way they are going to be able to fund the deficit is from a severely reduced cost base - of which wages are a principal sum
3 Once they have broken the trades union they can pretty much work their Cabin Crew to scheme
They have already started breaking long standing promotions and opportunity agreements this week - even before the ballot results are in - they will not stop there until they have got exactly what they want.
Yes people have been backed into a corner, however it is not just BASSA that has done this BA themselves want this dispute - in my opinion of course!
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A Lurker
You talk about being backed into a corner. What about your passengers whom you supposedly care for? Do you not have a conscience about potentially ruining Christmas for millions of parents & children? After all it is their fares which pay your wages.
You talk about being backed into a corner. What about your passengers whom you supposedly care for? Do you not have a conscience about potentially ruining Christmas for millions of parents & children? After all it is their fares which pay your wages.
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BASSA may or may not "win" its fight - but what you seem unable to grasp is the fact that if the Crew do nothing, they will lose everything anyway - if they go on strike and gain some concession back from BA then it would have been worthwhile because as it stands in a couple of years time their job will be changed beyond all recognition.
The strike option is their ONLY option - unless they all come to their senses and thrash out an agreement - that is an agreement, not imposed changes.
The strike option is their ONLY option - unless they all come to their senses and thrash out an agreement - that is an agreement, not imposed changes.
Negotiated settlement means give and take on both sides. BASSA agree to changes within the Cabin Crew terms and conditions and BA give on what changes are made.
That is the nub of sensible, adult negotiation. So, what has occurred over the past 9 months where BA extended the deadline to the CC Union in an attempt to get a negotiated settlement? Nothing, BASSA refused to budge on any issue especially when their 'savings' were shown to be exactly what they were, a sham.
The ballot will take place and, like the last earth shattering 95% yes over eg300, absolutely nothing will happen. BASSA will crawl away with its tail between its legs. WW will impose the changes and pursue BASSA/Unite for costs.
Negotiated settlement could have avoided all of this. The CC have, once again, been let down by those trying to feather their own nests at the top at the expense of the masses.
Get rid of them! They know their perch is perilous as they 'voted' not to be voted off until after the dispute. But by then they won't care.
How many BASSA hierarchy will be on the picket lines?
Oh, they are all on leave!
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Fincastle84 - you quote:
You talk about being backed into a corner. What about your passengers whom you supposedly care for? Do you not have a conscience about potentially ruining Christmas for millions of parents & children? After all it is their fares which pay your wages.
If you want to play the "emotional card" to be perfectly honest then no - I am more concerned for my own family and their future. Because if British Airways achieves all of their goals then my life and that of my family (including 3 small children) will change forever - Mr Walsh and his Leadership Team will be ruining 14,000 members of staff and their families Christmases for many, many years to come.
You talk about being backed into a corner. What about your passengers whom you supposedly care for? Do you not have a conscience about potentially ruining Christmas for millions of parents & children? After all it is their fares which pay your wages.
If you want to play the "emotional card" to be perfectly honest then no - I am more concerned for my own family and their future. Because if British Airways achieves all of their goals then my life and that of my family (including 3 small children) will change forever - Mr Walsh and his Leadership Team will be ruining 14,000 members of staff and their families Christmases for many, many years to come.
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I wonder which of those points are the ones BA really want to achieve, and how many of those would actually be amenable to the majority of crew? That is where any middle ground could have been found, except of course it wouldn't necessarily suit the BASSA leadership!
1) BA wouldn't say no to smashing cabin crew agreements I'm sure, but nor would they say no to adjusting them to realities of modern business. The disruption agreement is one such agreement that needed modernisation. Likewise the Eurofleet crewing matrix is a throwback to the times when we provided a full meal service on board. Neither are particularly defensible inthe current economic climate.
2) BA have offered income guarantees, which with a bit of sensible negotiation and analysis could be made watertight for many years to come. Instead of seizing the opportunity to even out income for crew and lock in earnings at last years level, crew are now faced with a BASSA proposed pay cut (for no better reason than it apes the pilots' deal) and a loss of earnings as flying volume decreases.
3) Long haul cabin crew work pretty much to scheme anyway if they are full time, so a strike is hardly likely to benefit them in that respect. Eurofleet may be in for a rude awakening, but can you defend them only flying 450 hours per year, versus 850 for the pilots and 900 for other airlines' crew? The BASSA literature was full of scare stories about how they'd have to work 14 hour days each day and do an extra TIP trip each month, yet even a rudimentary analysis would show why neither of those would be possible. In short, the options weren't even analysed, they were rejected out of hand.
Given the above situation, it's pretty transparent that BAs initial goals weren't actually as offensive as BASSA made them out to be. Of course if you are a senior Eurofleet CSD and union rep, or have mates in scheduling who can ensure you get more than your fair share of the lucrative long range trips, I can see why you'd be mortified at the proposals.
1) BA wouldn't say no to smashing cabin crew agreements I'm sure, but nor would they say no to adjusting them to realities of modern business. The disruption agreement is one such agreement that needed modernisation. Likewise the Eurofleet crewing matrix is a throwback to the times when we provided a full meal service on board. Neither are particularly defensible inthe current economic climate.
2) BA have offered income guarantees, which with a bit of sensible negotiation and analysis could be made watertight for many years to come. Instead of seizing the opportunity to even out income for crew and lock in earnings at last years level, crew are now faced with a BASSA proposed pay cut (for no better reason than it apes the pilots' deal) and a loss of earnings as flying volume decreases.
3) Long haul cabin crew work pretty much to scheme anyway if they are full time, so a strike is hardly likely to benefit them in that respect. Eurofleet may be in for a rude awakening, but can you defend them only flying 450 hours per year, versus 850 for the pilots and 900 for other airlines' crew? The BASSA literature was full of scare stories about how they'd have to work 14 hour days each day and do an extra TIP trip each month, yet even a rudimentary analysis would show why neither of those would be possible. In short, the options weren't even analysed, they were rejected out of hand.
Given the above situation, it's pretty transparent that BAs initial goals weren't actually as offensive as BASSA made them out to be. Of course if you are a senior Eurofleet CSD and union rep, or have mates in scheduling who can ensure you get more than your fair share of the lucrative long range trips, I can see why you'd be mortified at the proposals.
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Carnage - I am one of those who genuinely believe that we can still get an agreement before action - however as you pointed out yourself - BA can also see there are some "positives" from having this dispute in the first place.
In fact thinking of it - Eurofleet may stand to be the biggest losers from all of this - yet I don't think many of them realise that yet!!
In fact thinking of it - Eurofleet may stand to be the biggest losers from all of this - yet I don't think many of them realise that yet!!
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Originally Posted by Crash_and_Burn
Care to explain what this sting of words means? Are you suggesting that people who are saying they have voted NO are telling lies?
Had an interesting situation the other day. The day the notices came out, advising us that managers would be contacting us, crew starting getting calls, supposedly from managers at Waterside, asking their view on the strike. I'll be honest, when I heard about it, I was absolutely fuming. We were on the other side of the Atlantic and only 3 hrs from pickup. Plus, one of the younger crew was extremely worried, following a comment he had made on the outbound flight. He thought he'd been "dropped in it", for want of better words. On arrival back at LGW, I went straight to the managers and told them exactly what I thought of the inept managers up at Waterside, only to have them all look at me blankly. Waterside managers weren't making the calls, I was told. Our own managers would call us. Following my insistence that they damned well had called, further investigations took place. And guess what. Absolutely no trace on any system of phone calls having been made, from either LGW or London. Then I started to think about it. The calls were made at 1900 local time in the UK, and we all know that Waterside empties out long before then. All the crew involved had different managers and some were of different ranks. Plus, the only people that had received the calls, were the BASSA members on the crew, or in other words, the only ones that BASSA would have had contact details for.
Now, I'm certainly not blinded to the ineptitude of much of the management, but in this case, I am forced, by the evidence, to believe them. So where did those calls come from? Anyone wish to put a theory forward?
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A Lurker
It's not an emotional card. If you want to protect your family then forget your strike. If BA fails as a company then you will have no income from working for an airline because there isn't much recruitment taking place. I don't think your unemployment benefit will pay your bills & bang goes your pension.
However, I hope you & yours have a truly wonderful Christmas.
It's not an emotional card. If you want to protect your family then forget your strike. If BA fails as a company then you will have no income from working for an airline because there isn't much recruitment taking place. I don't think your unemployment benefit will pay your bills & bang goes your pension.
However, I hope you & yours have a truly wonderful Christmas.
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A Lurker,
There may be some truth in what you say, but you also need to ask how BA and Bassa came to be in this position. If Bassa had allowed a working relationship to develop with BA and negotiations had occurred, there would have been some cuts to cabin crew Ts and Cs over time, but when it came to the crunch (ie now) negotiations would still have produced a workable situation. Eg New Fleet could have been talked off the table. (See Balpa's approach).
I've said since the original thread that this is about power for Bassa. They don't turn up for meetings at a BA appointed time - they decide when they will meet. The same goes for the day to day operation and they can veto virtually any decision in the department if it doesn't suit them ( the reps). Bassa have an unheard of influence and input into the daily schedule, like no other union and it's loss of this power that they cannot countenance.
By negotiating with BA it implies that there is some sort of equality of power and control between the two groups. Bassa must demonstrate that they are the stronger of the two - hence the comments from CFC et al saying the ballot is a choice between BA OR Bassa. It's not a fight over issues (who's read anything about specifics?), it's a fight over who controls the department.
There may be some truth in what you say, but you also need to ask how BA and Bassa came to be in this position. If Bassa had allowed a working relationship to develop with BA and negotiations had occurred, there would have been some cuts to cabin crew Ts and Cs over time, but when it came to the crunch (ie now) negotiations would still have produced a workable situation. Eg New Fleet could have been talked off the table. (See Balpa's approach).
I've said since the original thread that this is about power for Bassa. They don't turn up for meetings at a BA appointed time - they decide when they will meet. The same goes for the day to day operation and they can veto virtually any decision in the department if it doesn't suit them ( the reps). Bassa have an unheard of influence and input into the daily schedule, like no other union and it's loss of this power that they cannot countenance.
By negotiating with BA it implies that there is some sort of equality of power and control between the two groups. Bassa must demonstrate that they are the stronger of the two - hence the comments from CFC et al saying the ballot is a choice between BA OR Bassa. It's not a fight over issues (who's read anything about specifics?), it's a fight over who controls the department.
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Fincastle84 - in response to you
It's not an emotional card. If you want to protect your family then forget your strike.
"If we don't strike then all is lost anyway - cant you see that?"
If BA fails as a company then you will have no income from working for an airline because there isn't much recruitment taking place.
"BA will not fail as a company as the £1bn cash reserve will see it through"
I don't think your unemployment benefit will pay your bills & bang goes your pension.
"Pension is crap anyway - worth £35K at the moment after 22 years service!"
However, I hope you & yours have a truly wonderful Christmas.
"Merry Christmas to you too"
It's not an emotional card. If you want to protect your family then forget your strike.
"If we don't strike then all is lost anyway - cant you see that?"
If BA fails as a company then you will have no income from working for an airline because there isn't much recruitment taking place.
"BA will not fail as a company as the £1bn cash reserve will see it through"
I don't think your unemployment benefit will pay your bills & bang goes your pension.
"Pension is crap anyway - worth £35K at the moment after 22 years service!"
However, I hope you & yours have a truly wonderful Christmas.
"Merry Christmas to you too"
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Midman - the fact is it's about power for both BASSA and BA
Let's face it BA have been wanting to crack the trades union for years - even when CC89 was formed they viewed that as a positive which probably did not pan put exactly the way BA would have liked
I agree that it is a power battle - however there has to be a common ground found - the majority of CC do not want to go on strike, no matter what you hear, however they see that they now have no option as the company has already imposed it's changes and they see strike action as their only way of battling back
Let's face it BA have been wanting to crack the trades union for years - even when CC89 was formed they viewed that as a positive which probably did not pan put exactly the way BA would have liked
I agree that it is a power battle - however there has to be a common ground found - the majority of CC do not want to go on strike, no matter what you hear, however they see that they now have no option as the company has already imposed it's changes and they see strike action as their only way of battling back
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Quote:
'"BA will not fail as a company as the £1bn cash reserve will see it through"
If you believe this then you are truly without hope. The share holders will not allow the reserve to be used in this way. At the same time your loyal customers will disappear. As I am both a customer of very long standing & a serious share holder, I will be very sorry to see this excellent airline disappear. However, I will survive: you won't!
'"BA will not fail as a company as the £1bn cash reserve will see it through"
If you believe this then you are truly without hope. The share holders will not allow the reserve to be used in this way. At the same time your loyal customers will disappear. As I am both a customer of very long standing & a serious share holder, I will be very sorry to see this excellent airline disappear. However, I will survive: you won't!
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Lurker, I'm afraid you are still trotting out the BASSA line of "striking is the only option". To achieve what exactly?
If BASSA will not negotiate with BA, the reason for imposition in the first place, then what is the point of trying to, as Steve Turner put it I think "force BA back to the table". To witness more BASSA tantrums?
Not striking is the only solution if you want to keep your job. As far as I know this involves no pay cuts. Slightly better than unemployment benefit I think?
If BASSA have put their members into a position where they strike and are sacked as a result, then no-one will have much sympathy.
I would be grateful it you could tell me exactly what it cost you on November 16th other than a bit of hurt pride. I would like to know why it has made striking "the only option". "Old Chap".
If BASSA will not negotiate with BA, the reason for imposition in the first place, then what is the point of trying to, as Steve Turner put it I think "force BA back to the table". To witness more BASSA tantrums?
Not striking is the only solution if you want to keep your job. As far as I know this involves no pay cuts. Slightly better than unemployment benefit I think?
If BASSA have put their members into a position where they strike and are sacked as a result, then no-one will have much sympathy.
I would be grateful it you could tell me exactly what it cost you on November 16th other than a bit of hurt pride. I would like to know why it has made striking "the only option". "Old Chap".
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fincastle84 as you just quoted:
Quote:
'"BA will not fail as a company as the £1bn cash reserve will see it through"
If you believe this then you are truly without hope. The share holders will not allow the reserve to be used in this way. At the same time your loyal customers will disappear. As I am both a customer of very long standing & a serious share holder, I will be very sorry to see this excellent airline disappear. However, I will survive: you won't!
The shareholders will have to use the reserve this way - otherwise if the company fails their shares become absolutely worthless anyway - oh and I am sure you are aware that the crown jewels have already been sold off over the years so there is not much of an asset base either!
As for surviving - you know nothing of me or my situation - how dare you insinuate that I wouldn't survive
Quote:
'"BA will not fail as a company as the £1bn cash reserve will see it through"
If you believe this then you are truly without hope. The share holders will not allow the reserve to be used in this way. At the same time your loyal customers will disappear. As I am both a customer of very long standing & a serious share holder, I will be very sorry to see this excellent airline disappear. However, I will survive: you won't!
The shareholders will have to use the reserve this way - otherwise if the company fails their shares become absolutely worthless anyway - oh and I am sure you are aware that the crown jewels have already been sold off over the years so there is not much of an asset base either!
As for surviving - you know nothing of me or my situation - how dare you insinuate that I wouldn't survive
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The shareholders will have to use the reserve this way - otherwise if the company fails their shares become absolutely worthless anyway - oh and I am sure you are aware that the crown jewels have already been sold off over the years so there is not much of an asset base either!
It has been discussed previously (along with most topics!) but the required cash reserves of an Airline are not nil. In order to maintain a credit line a company the size of BA must maintain a large cash reserve. Otherwise suppliers demand cash up front and thus increased prices. This is what happened at the end of the Alitalia wind up.
BA must maintain high cash reserves. Sadly the cost of borrowing is going up and the lower the 'bank balance' the higher the cost of maintaining the debt. It is indeed a vicious circle.
BA has raised capital based upon its restructuring plan and the ability to take the 'streamlined' airline forward. Unless WW sorts out an incalcitrant CC union then the future of investment in the company is in doubt. He will not let this opportunity pass. BASSA have wasted the opportunity to take an active part in the restructuring and their members are now paying the price.
Shareholders would rather see a week long winding up of the current BA, cancellation of contracts, re-issue of a new AOC and then re-employing only those staff the company wants on contracts that the company can legally write from scratch. Think it can't happen? Have a good look at the Air-One/Alitalia CAI buy out.
As to the crown jewels, BA has been in profit despite crippling labour costs since privatisation. That level of return is a gold mine to major investors and they can see the restructured BA delivering.
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A Lurker,
I don't think you've said (and you certainly don't have to) whether you've voted YES to the strike, but from your posts, I think you probably have (or will).
So, as a representative of the YES camp (probably), I'd like to thank you for engaging on the issues, addressing and answering questions directly, and generally being willing to try & see things from the point of view of others.
For posters here who don't work with BA crew day in day out, A Lurker's attitude is vastly more representative of BA crew than the rabid & non-sensical BASSA 100% brigade who shout so loud but say so little (here & elsewhere)
I wish you all the best through the turbulant times that are coming our way.
I don't think you've said (and you certainly don't have to) whether you've voted YES to the strike, but from your posts, I think you probably have (or will).
So, as a representative of the YES camp (probably), I'd like to thank you for engaging on the issues, addressing and answering questions directly, and generally being willing to try & see things from the point of view of others.
For posters here who don't work with BA crew day in day out, A Lurker's attitude is vastly more representative of BA crew than the rabid & non-sensical BASSA 100% brigade who shout so loud but say so little (here & elsewhere)
I wish you all the best through the turbulant times that are coming our way.