Southend-2

[virginblue]

Over a year ago

So is he on garden leave? He is regularly posting to LinkedIn as "Aviation Business Development Director at London Southend Airport" - as recently as last week.

[AirportPlanner1]

It looks like EZY have messed up and removed ALL their flights from sale even those which are operating until 31/8

[Tranceaddict]

So is he on garden leave? He is regularly posting to LinkedIn as "Aviation Business Development Director at London Southend Airport" - as recently as last week.

Guess he just hasn't updated his LinkedIn profile

[Expressflight]

Both Kristiansand and Bergen are bookable on the Wideroe website wef 31st August operating Monday and Friday, with KRS being via BGO. KRS increases to 5 x weekly wef 4th November as a direct flight while BGO remains at 2 x weekly. At least that seems the plan at the moment.

[LTNman]

Understandable but pointless.

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18661576.protesters-take-stand-easyjet-southend-base-closure/

[Barling Magna]

As DavidJohnson6 suspected Norway has added the UK and Ireland to its list of countries from which visitors arriving in Norway will need to quarantine for ten days because of increasing cases of Covid-19. That hardly helps the new Wideroe service............

[DC3 Dave]

It looks like EZY have messed up and removed ALL their flights from sale even those which are operating until 31/8

Back on sale. You could - if you were so inclined - fly to ALC on Monday and return on Friday for £50.

[tws123]

Looks like Ryanair have tentatively scheduled the return of Milan Bergamo on 28 March 2021 (4x weekly) and Brest for 29 March 2021 (2x weekly). Whilst they are bookable, most prices are currently inflated to put customers off purchasing.

[rowly6339]

According to Stobart Ryanair have increased flights to Portugal as it is currently on the safe list of countries to travel to.

[Barling Magna]

Wideroe's first flight into SEN from Bergen has landed this morning, receiving the water arch greeting. A small piece of good news on the day that EZY close their base.....

[southside bobby]

14 aboard the inaugural Wideroe...

[Hawthorne]

According to Stobart Ryanair have increased flights to Portugal as it is currently on the safe list of countries to travel to.

it’s literally one extra flight a week!

Theres only 3 flights today... Stobart needs to attract more flight quickly and the governments needs to relax quarantine, its devastating the airport

[LTNman]

If FR jiggled their Southend timetable could they not operate with one aircraft or is Monday Ryanair’s departure low point? Two departures 5 minutes apart then a 6 hour gap waiting for the first of the returning aircraft. Staffing costs for Stobart must be horrendous.

[SKOJB]

14 aboard the inaugural Wideroe...

Is there a particular reason for Widerøe starting up to SEN ie large corporate clients with offices in both regions? Only asking as I cannot see these being financially viable as pure leisure routes, even if Bergen might be a hub for Scandinavia!

[Hawthorne]

If FR jiggled their Southend timetable could they not operate with one aircraft or is Monday Ryanair’s departure low point? Two departures 5 minutes apart then a 6 hour gap waiting for the first of the returning aircraft. Staffing costs for Stobart must be horrendous.

I do believe Ryanair will be dropping down to 1 plane for winter schedule. That’ll mean only 1 airplane is based in Southend... as Wideroe and Wizz don’t have planes based at SEN

[AirportPlanner1]

Is there a particular reason for Widerøe starting up to SEN ie large corporate clients with offices in both regions? Only asking as I cannot see these being financially viable as pure leisure routes, even if Bergen might be a hub for Scandinavia!

The original association comes from the Kristiansand route which shifted across from STN but for obvious reasons didn’t start on time and is still postponed. So you’d assume SEN is cheaper for them, the pax mix is likely to be almost 100% inbound.

From that they have added Bergen, likely to be aimed more for British leisure pax but will also work for inbound. They are also flying to Bergen from LGW and LCY, I assume to take advantage of Norwegian’s probable exit from the route.

Other than that Essex has long been the favoured entry point for Scandinavian routes and airlines, now SEN is grabbing some of the action although I believe Wideroe flew there way back when. They have also been in and out of STN.

[BA318]

The original association comes from the Kristiansand route which shifted across from STN but for obvious reasons didn’t start on time and is still postponed. So you’d assume SEN is cheaper for them, the pax mix is likely to be almost 100% inbound.

From that they have added Bergen, likely to be aimed more for British leisure pax but will also work for inbound. They are also flying to Bergen from LGW and LCY, I assume to take advantage of Norwegian’s probable exit from the route.

Other than that Essex has long been the favoured entry point for Scandinavian routes and airlines, now SEN is grabbing some of the action although I believe Wideroe flew there way back when. They have also been in and out of STN.

They applied for slots but have made no announcements about intentions to operate from LCY or LGW at this time so likely won’t do so. I can’t see them splitting ops like that nor operating from Bergen to three different london airports.

[Expressflight]

Wideroe is one the oldest European airlines having been established in 1934. Their DC-3s first appeared at SEN in 1962 flying passenger and freight charters so it's good to see them back. I had hoped to fly with them this summer but whether I'll get the chance next year (I'm definitely not flying at all this year) remains to be seen. The fact that they applied for slots at both LCY and LGW isn't exactly a confidence booster as they obviously wouldn't operate to three LON airports, or probably even two.

[LTNman]

ATC and the last Easyjet flight saying their goodbyes. A very sad time for the staff and supporters here.

https://youtu.be/504aAiZ-Oqk

report here.

https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/devastating-impact-last-easyjet-flight-4474435

[davidjohnson6]

Wideroe's Kristiansand service seems to have been pushed back, resuming in late March 2021 instead of November 2020. From Wideroe's commercial perspective, this is almost certainly the correct decision

[Barling Magna]

ATC and the last Easyjet flight saying their goodbyes. A very sad time for the staff and supporters here.

https://youtu.be/504aAiZ-Oqk

report here.

https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/devastating-impact-last-easyjet-flight-4474435

Wow, that's an emotional listen. Gives some idea of the high esteem in which the easyJet crews were held by the SEN community, and it's clearly reciprocated by the EZY crew.

Maybe EZY will return one day, but unfortunately that day is probably a long way off. For now the limited Ryanair operation plus Wizz Air, Wideroe, ASL Cargo and of course JOTA will remain as the airport tries to survive........

[LTNman]

Maybe EZY will return one day, but unfortunately that day is probably a long way off.

On January 5th 2010 Easyjet ended their 10 routes from East Midlands leaving them still waiting for a return.

East Midlands found its feet with Ryanair and later Jet 2 so there is always hope of better days to come.

[Interested Passenger]

Of all the 'London' airports, Southend has many advantages for both airline and passenger.

push back to wheels up has got to be the quickest and therefore cheapest - how many tonnes of fuel does it save? just knowing if you are a couple of minutes late you haven't lost your slot and have a 45 minute delay makes planning easier
same goes for passengers, no 40 minute walk to gate 1, no hour long queues for passport control and security. total that up, for both passengers and taxiing, and it probably saves a good hour or so from arrival at airport to being in the air, and the same on return.

rail links to london no worse than luton or stanstead.

biggest drawback is the airlines not offering the destinations.

[pamann]

biggest drawback is the airlines not offering the destinations.

Or flights full stop.

Might be why it’s currently the quickest airport in the London area.

I really hope things improve in the not so distant future because I actually do like using Southend Airport when I can.

[southside bobby]

So the conclusion or answer is ?

BTW it is of course STANSTED.

[davidjohnson6]

Biggest drawback is half the catchment area being water

[SWBKCB]

Southend has many disadvantages for both airline and passenger.

Lack of brand awareness (perception of fauilure?), "interesting" financial position of the airport operator, operating restrictions, poor road access, limited terminal facilities - shops, bars, etc, lack of destinations, no economies of scale for operators/high start up costs if your setting up a base/plenty of availability at more established rivals.

[Planespeaking]

Southend has many disadvantages for both airline and passenger.

Lack of brand awareness (perception of fauilure?), "interesting" financial position of the airport operator, operating restrictions, poor road access, limited terminal facilities - shops, bars, etc, lack of destinations, no economies of scale for operators/high start up costs if your setting up a base/plenty of availability at more established rivals.

Apart from that it has been voted the best London airport for many years running. Just an observation in the interest of balance!

[Expressflight]

Apart from that it has been voted the best London airport for many years running. Just an observation in the interest of balance!
I agree that it's certainly stretching things to suggest that SEN is unattractive to passengers and SWBKCB's litany of supposed weakness of the airport itself belie the success SEN has seen in recent years. Certainly the new situation of previous capacity constraints elsewhere having eased will not help SEN to attract new routes and operators in the short to medium term. The fact is that none of us knows what lies ahead for UK aviation, or for our own lives come to that. Personally I wish all UK airports well as SEN is not the only one that faces a tough future and my posts will try to bear that in mind.

[Carzyhorse]

I agree that it's certainly stretching things to suggest that SEN is unattractive to passengers and Planespeaking's litany of supposed weakness of the airport itself belie the success SEN has seen in recent years. Certainly the new situation of previous capacity constraints elsewhere having eased will not help SEN to attract new routes and operators in the short to medium term. The fact is that none of us knows what lies ahead for UK aviation, or for our own lives come to that. Personally I wish all UK airports well as SEN is not the only one that faces a tough future and my posts will try to bear that in mind.

I live locally and have heard a number of rumours about the airport including it has the most noise complaints of all airports and there have been investigations into using the land for a new town

[SWBKCB]

It was my litany of supposed weaknesses, not Planespeakings! :eek: And I was merely responding to "Interested Passengers" rosy view at #4273

But wasn't this always going to the challenge - being best London airport in a passenger survey wasn't clearing a very high bar when everywhere else is rammed and your nice, new shiny terminal is empty. The problem was going to be how you scaled that experience when the terminal was at capacity? It's easy to have a two minute walk to the plane when you've got three gates...

SEN's USP to airlines was space and capacity when there wasn't any elsewhere - that's now gone and the competition has the economies of scale of the big boys are looking for market share again

[Charley B]

Beautiful tribute by ATC to the EasyJet crew.very moving❤️

Wish them all the best and really hope things start to improve x

[Expressflight]

My apologies to Planespeaking for the previous identity error.

So SWBKCB, the terminal was "empty" was it when the surveys were carried out which endowed SEN with 'best London airport' status? I think not and wonder when you last travelled through SEN because when I used it several times last summer (and oh, how long ago that seems now!) it was very busy each time. Three gates at SEN? More than double that I think but don't let that get in the way of your agenda. Yes, of course SEN will struggle to regain momentum and probably the larger airports will be the beneficiaries of the consolidation of routes by the "big boys", but that's a consequence of COVID-19 and not through SEN's inherent shortcomings and surely many other smaller airports will suffer likewise.

[DC3 Dave]

In 2020 SEN was on course to achieve over 2.5 million pax after years of struggling to get there. Despite the opinion of many here, I would maintain that the facilities were absolutely fine in terms of retail, car parking etc. and transport connections were improving with later trains and a coach service that hopefully would have developed.

Easyjet were happy. They’d added a forth aircraft and the trying then axing routes days seemed over.

Then Flybe went and with it the franchise. Virgin Connect never happened. Then Covid19. Then clearly, something else happened that pushed EZY into severing all ties with SEN. Andrew Tinkler tells us that’s down to Warwick Brady.

The airport has a good future. A small but modern terminal, a runway resurfaced to a high spec only 18 months ago. All taxiways upgraded. Everything needed in place for a few years. Even generates a handy chunk of its electricity itself.

So I’m confident the airport will get through this. As for Stobart? Good luck.

[Carzyhorse]

I’m live locally and have heard a lot of rumours about the airport. There are endless complaints about the noise and the council are being forced to act. There was also talk of a building firm surveying the land for a new town

[DC3 Dave]

I’m live locally and have heard a lot of rumours about the airport. There are endless complaints about the noise and the council are being forced to act. There was also talk of a building firm surveying the land for a new town

Your last sentence suggests you need to brush up on your smoke signals, Carzyhorse.

[LTNman]

No one doubts that Southend had the best London airport passenger award but happy passengers has had no influence on the airlines. If it did Luton would not have any. We can all debate why that is but it won't change the situation. Things could be worse but Ryanair is hanging around so maybe that is a positive sign for the future.

[DC3 Dave]

How about this for getting some positivity racing through your veins!

https://www.southendstandard.co.uk/news/18693152.93m-plans-electric-trains-connect-towns/

It’s a great idea! Not sure about their figures. £93m would probably cover the cost of 10 or so trains. Still, nothing wrong with thinking big.

[southside bobby]

Perhaps using RYR as a barometer & metric for airport planning & optimism has elsewhere in the past proved to be somewhat misplaced...

However one constant is their desire & ability to squeeze more & more cost saving benefits from airports so Stobart/SEN with the loss of EZY certainly have a tiger by the tail now...

[SWBKCB]

Apologies - I've probably exaggerated a bit for effect, but the same principle applies. Easy to be popular when everything is small, new and shiny, and the competition isn't - but how do you scale it and not end up like all the others? Doesn't matter if it is three or six gates, but double it and your advantages such as a/c to train times etc disappear and there are longer walks or buses, and you're just like everybody else. And then where is SEN's advantage, other than availabilty of slots?

No agenda here, but I've long been puzzled by Stobarts game plan. Where's the money for them to hang on?

[Expressflight]

SWBKCB

Actually the terminal extension Northwards, which would have gone ahead this winter I think but not now, wouldn't have increased the walking distances to any great extent. It would have increased the number of gates to 10 or so and enlarged the baggage reclaim and immigration areas which were becoming pinch points. The retail offering could also have been expanded. All in all it would have brought the terminal more into balance with the number of contact stands so might even have improved the customer experience.

All just a dream now and it will be a long time before it's built, if at all who knows, as the 'new' plan suggests a separate Arrivals building. As far as Stobart itself is concerned the only saving grace is that their cash position is much better but the revenue streams are uncertain and the 25p share price tells the story.

[southside bobby]

Intriguing line from DC3 Dave... "EZY severing all ties with SEN Andrew Tinkler tells us that`s down to Warwick Brady" ... Please tell US more.

[DC3 Dave]

Intriguing line from DC3 Dave... "EZY severing all ties with SEN Andrew Tinkler tells us that`s down to Warwick Brady" ... Please tell US more.

From Andrew Tinkler’s Twitter feed 17/8: “I feel sorry for all employees of Stobart/Easyjet & Stakeholders that are tonight concerned about the loss of a valuable foundation customer at LSA Airport, the Board of Stobart have only themselves to blame due to incompetent decision making of Warwick Brady CEO. SADay”

[southside bobby]

Thanks for that...

Very intriguing even given the bad blood between Tinkler & Stobart...

Any offers what "incompetent decision making" from the CEO consists of in this Twitter feed?

[DC3 Dave]

Thanks for that...

Very intriguing even given the bad blood between Tinkler & Stobart...

Any offers what "incompetent decision making" from the CEO consists of in this Twitter feed?


It would only be speculation. What we do know is that the EZY deal was due to end early 2022 so it would not be unreasonable to assume that - at least - early stage talks regarding the future were taking place. Bearing in mind this may have been pre Covid, Warwick Brady emboldened by the arrival of FR would have wanted to increase orange revenue and EZY were probably unwilling to give any ground that would put them at any disadvantage v FR, you can see that there was a difficult negotiation to be had.

I guess Tinkler is saying that Brady was the wrong man for the job, but he would say that, wouldn’t he....

[Buster the Bear]

Brady was ex easyJet of course.

https://gb.wallmine.com/lse/stob/officer/1672558/warwick-brady

[southside bobby]

Was always going to be a difficult situation ultimately with the two largest LCCs co-habituating & basing at a relatively small airport...

[Bee Rexit]

I live locally and have heard a number of rumours about the airport including it has the most noise complaints of all airports and there have been investigations into using the land for a new town
I live at one end of the runway and work at the other end and have never heard this rumour but it is right up there with some of the craziest whoppers I have heard.

[LTNman]

There is an Easyjet flight from Southend that is meant to be arriving at 10:15 at Luton on flight number EYZ 9003. Is this the last departure from Southend? It is not showing on flight radar and is not listed anywhere.

[southside bobby]

Independent.ie reports Falko owners of CityJet in talks to acquire Stobart Air.

[SWBKCB]

There is an Easyjet flight from Southend that is meant to be arriving at 10:15 at Luton on flight number EYZ 9003. Is this the last departure from Southend? It is not showing on flight radar and is not listed anywhere.

EZY9000 flights are positioning/ferry flts, Do EZY still have a/c stored at SEN?

[chesna152]

EZY9000 flights are positioning/ferry flts, Do EZY still have a/c stored at SEN?

Still 10 Ezy’s on site with more to arrive for storage this winter I believe

[Buster the Bear]

Independent.ie reports Falko owners of CityJet in talks to acquire Stobart Air.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/cityjet-owner-falko-in-talks-to-acquire-stobart-air-39502051.html

[LTNman]

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18695758.southend-airport-amazon-night-flights-stay-despite-meeting-mp/

[Hawthorne]

Wideroe have pulled flights from SEN due to poor pax numbers after just 3 flights! Yikes!

[davidjohnson6]

Disappointing but highly rational decision from Wideroe
The Norwegian Govt requires anyone entering Norway to quarantine for 10 days if entering from a country with 20 cases per 100,000 people over a *two week* window - ie roughly twice as strict as the UK requirement. The UK currently has 37 cases on this measure. VERY few areas in Europe are considered by Norway to be outside the red zone - Norway has effectively closed their border

[SeanM1997]

Wideroe have pulled flights from SEN due to poor pax numbers after just 3 flights! Yikes!

Wideroe's London Southend and Liverpool routes are currently returning from 29 March 2021

[SKOJB]

Can’t see that Fly One is bookable any longer as nothing showing up to March 2021!

[tws123]

Bergen appears bookable again from 5 March 2021, Kristiansand from 29 March 2021 (direct).

FlyOne showing two weekly in the booking system, but no dates are showing with any flights available up to March 2021. Perhaps, like others, they are waiting until demand is likely to pick up.

[LTNman]

Planning permission for a new airport hotel has been rejected by the council.

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18709445.plans-southend-airport-hotel-refused-council/

[LTNman]

Major interview with Glyn Jones, CEO of Stobart Aviation about Southend’s future.

https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/london-southend-airports-uncertain-future-4499677

[Barling Magna]

Thanks for finding that LTNman. It's an interesting read. Brave talk from Mr Jones but with a touch of realism this time:"I think there's a fine line to be trod between wanting to be positive and saying things that are a bit silly in terms of optimism. I don't have any doubt the airport will recover and we think the airport has got a long-term future. We are talking to several different airlines and have good relationships with easyJet."

It goes without saying that SEN's next couple of years depend on Ryanair for survival; what will they do?. Amazon Logistics and JOTA can't provide enough income to keep the wolf from the door. Maybe easyJet will return in a few years. I hope they do. However I'm keeping fingers crossed, kissing the horseshoe, displaying a four leaf clover and touching wood for the future of the airport...........

[DC3 Dave]

There you go. It’s taken Covid19, the devastating loss of EZY and the Flybe franchise for Glyn Jones to finally come out and say it. Southend is primarily a leisure traveller’s airport. Perhaps the fact that last year, when capacity almost doubled on the airport’s major sun routes and pax numbers in peak season did, showed the way.

Three years ago, the airport was busy promoting itself as the savvy business traveller’s choice. Great if you lived in the area and had business in Manchester, but a range of frequent flights to key domestic and European economic and industrial cities never materialised, I can’t recall anyone on this thread believing they would.

So I’m pleased if the talk of being a serious rival to LCY is over and serving the leisure travel needs of Essex and East London is at the forefront of all the airport’s promotion.

Of course, there is still the virus. But if progress can be made and real demand returns then the future is bright. Though probably not orange.

[compton3bravo]

You mention Jota practically all their flights are positioning ones. No passenger income just a landing fee. That might change if ever Southend United got into the Premier League!

[OpsSix]

You mention Jota practically all their flights are positioning ones. No passenger income just a landing fee. That might change if ever Southend United got into the Premier League!

I'm reliably informed that Stobart insist on Jota paying a rather steep handling fee every time one of their aircraft departs, even when empty.
It's certainly one way to upset one of your only remaining customers.

[Barling Magna]

You mention Jota practically all their flights are positioning ones. No passenger income just a landing fee. That might change if ever Southend United got into the Premier League!

A four-nil defeat to EFL newcomers Harrogate Town suggests that the Shrimpers will not be in the Premiership anytime soon, so that isn't going to save SEN........

[southside bobby]

Have always tried to figure the number of charters Jota perform from STN with the associated positioning from & to SEN surely some of the business must generate from within reach of SEN too...

[compton3bravo]

A sizeable amount of flights by Jota are football related that is why they position to Stansted/Luton with teams such as Arsenal, Tottenham and Watford either at home or away to Liverpool, Everton, Man United etc. For instance Eastern operated a couple of charters to both Luton and Stansted this weekend from Durahm/Tees Valley and Newcastle with the Middlesbrough and Newcastle teams and officials.

[southside bobby]

Indeed...One case in point THFC...Jota positions SEN/STN to fly the contract & then STN/SEN after.

Given Tottenham is within the catchment recently reiterated in a statement by SEN...(STN`s too tho of course) question maybe is why SEN cannot secure this flying instead of requiring the resident airline to position to fly from another Essex airport.

Jota RJ85 arrived STN yesterday afternoon from LPL.

Eastern used a ERJ170 into STN this w/end.

[SWBKCB]

When you are paying for the whole plane, you decide where it goes to and from... :ok:

[southender]

Surely handling charges are factored into the charter price, so effectively the charterer pays and costs JOTA nothing.

[southside bobby]

Accepted & that appears to corroborate the allusion then the customer (from the same catchment) in this instance & probably more given a choice choose STN.

As before then why cannot SEN secure the flying from their own facilities.

[DC3 Dave]

When you are paying for the whole plane, you decide where it goes to and from... :ok:

And when your training ground - where the players report before travelling - is next to J25 of the M25, your airport of choice is very likely to be STN.

Can’t really understand why Jota would have an issue positioning. Do Titan?

[Expressflight]

There really is no issue here for Jota.

When I was a Charter Broker based at SEN in the 1970s I initially tried to channel any work that I could through SEN but I quickly learned that it was not a good idea to suggest this in case the weather at SEN was a problem - no ILS in those days - whereas at STN, LTN or LGW that was unlikely to be so. The only time I pushed hard for SEN was with P & O Jet Ferries when we gained the contract for supply immediate charter capacity when their Boeing jetfoils ingested something nasty in the Thames. Their in-house travel department had often been chartering Laker 707s, while the 737-200 was better suited to the number of pax normally involved. By using TEA out of Brussels and operating between SEN and OST I could reduce the charter cost by nearly 50%. For that sort of saving the charterer was happy to be persuaded. I don't think Premiership football clubs would be very interested in deviating from their established routines.

[Barling Magna]

Where do West Ham fly from? They would be a better match for SEN I'd have thought. Or are the Hammers earth-bound?

[southender]

I remember Newcastle United flying into SEN some years back for a midweek game against West Ham when they played at Upton Park. Eastern provided a Saab 2000 as I recall and they flew straight back after the game.

[Expressflight]

Was it West Ham that flew back to SEN from a European game on a 757 a while back? I think that SEN may have been chosen due to a lack of night slots elsewhere though.

[compton3bravo]

West Ham and Spurs use Stansted while Arsenal usually use Luton but occasionally Stansted. Chelsea use Farnborough when available but when returning from night away games usually Gatwick but have used Luton also. When Watford were in the Premier League teams from the north used Luton, but that will be severely curtailed now they are in the Championship. Teams playing at Wembley usually use Luton.
Arsenal hold the shortest domestic football charter from Luton to Norwich, flying time 13 minutes! It took longer for them to drive to Luton than fly. If my memory serves me correctly I think it was a Chello Aviation 146 which positioned in from Birmingham!

[chesna152]

West Ham and Spurs use Stansted while Arsenal usually use Luton but occasionally Stansted. Chelsea use Farnborough when available but when returning from night away games usually Gatwick but have used Luton also. When Watford were in the Premier League teams from the north used Luton, but that will be severely curtailed now they are in the Championship. Teams playing at Wembley usually use Luton.
Arsenal hold the shortest domestic football charter from Luton to Norwich, flying time 13 minutes! It took longer for them to drive to Luton than fly. If my memory serves me correctly I think it was a Chello Aviation 146 which positioned in from Birmingham!

2 seasons ago Jota flew Man Utd from Manchester to East Midlands which I think would give Luton - Norwich a run for its money in terms of distance!

[AirportPlanner1]

I happened to see MAN-EMA or vv this year, it was noticeable as one of the only aircraft in the sky.

Southend have flown to the odd game in the past and some of the bigger teams have flown in - think I recall Blackpool doing so. In League 2 this will become even more limited.

Bolton flew into SEN more recently for Charlton or Millwall. There have also been a couple of inbound charters heading for Colchester United.

[cavokblues]

f my memory serves me correctly I think it was a Chello Aviation 146 which positioned in from Birmingham!

I think they did use BMI Regional for a bit and the 135/145 - there are a few pictures of it on Daily Mail etc as Arsenal came in for a lot of criticism for the decision to fly!

[DC3 Dave]

Don’t forget “elite” sports teams are currently required to maintain a bio bubble and undergo regular Covid testing before competition. No stopping off at the Watford Gap services for a pee, sausage roll and a copy of the Sporting Life anymore.

So lots of opportunity for the likes of Jota to cash in, and IF there is any disadvantage to be based at SEN it won’t be much of one right now.

[LTNman]

Football teams and their support staff normally use FBO terminals rather than the main terminal. How many passengers can Southend’s FBO terminal handle and seat in comfort?

[Expressflight]

The inbound B757 I mentioned was handled at the Jet Centre and the pax numbers were well over 100. Obviously outbound it would not be quite as easy to process such numbers.

[SWBKCB]

Football teams and their support staff normally use FBO terminals rather than the main terminal. How many passengers can Southend’s FBO terminal handle and seat in comfort?

Football teams don't spend much time in the FBO - especially for domestic flights.

[Expressflight]

SWBKCB

I don't know if it's the case in the current situation but quite often for departures the team coach would park at the foot of the aircraft steps. Whether that applies at STN or LTN for example I don't know but a number of Jota social media posts have shown this in the past at other UK airports.

[southside bobby]

Disadvantages for Jota...

Each positioning flight to & from STN adds 2 additional cycles to the frame hastening required m/x.

Each positioning flight from & to STN adds at least 2 hours to the crew rosta & totals for the month.

Generally wasteful in terms of fuel.

It appears Jota & Stobart do not work well together.

[Expressflight]

Disadvantages for Jota...
Each positioning flight to & from STN adds 2 additional cycles to the frame hastening required m/x.
Each positioning flight from & to STN adds at least 2 hours to the crew rosta & totals for the month.
Generally wasteful in terms of fuel.
It appears Jota & Stobart do not work well together.

That's just the way the charter market is for all operators, not just Jota.

I ran a 10 aircraft operation providing light freight and pax charters in the 1980s and I doubt very much has changed since then in respect of customers' requirements. You operate to and from where they want you to, when they want you to, while making perhaps a few suggestions that might actually prove beneficial to them. If you fretted over the additional sectors and crew hours that this requires you would be looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

As far as 'the fireplace' is concerned, maybe that bit of quirkiness actually increased awareness of the Jet Centre. Bizjet business seems to have picked up over the past few weeks in any event which is good to see.

[DC3 Dave]

Disadvantages for Jota...

Each positioning flight to & from STN adds 2 additional cycles to the frame hastening required m/x.

Each positioning flight from & to STN adds at least 2 hours to the crew rosta & totals for the month.

Generally wasteful in terms of fuel.

It appears Jota & Stobart do not work well together.


Are we missing something here? Or being a little dense? Is the majority of Jota’s work from STN? What advantage does being based there give them if they have have to position to LTN, LGW, LCY etc?

All this started because an individual has heard that Jota are not happy over a particular fee. Let’s hear a little more about that grievance if anyone can back it up.

[Expressflight]

Are we missing something here? Or being a little dense? Is the majority of Jota’s work from STN? What advantage does being based there give them if they have have to position to LTN, LGW, LCY etc?
All this started because an individual has heard that Jota are not happy over a particular fee. Let’s hear a little more about that grievance if anyone can back it up.

The only thing I can say with some certainty was that when ASL started their night freight operation Jota were told that they would not be able to book any night slots at all in future. They also had to tow their aircraft onto the terminal contact stands for all departures, including positioning, and were probably charged accordingly. Whether this was due to generally enhanced security measures I don't know but they used to be able to depart from their hangar apron I believe. Certainly the talk at SEN was that Stobart did not seem to value their presence.

Last week Jota moved out of Viscount House and have established their commercial and operations offices in a nearby, off airport, business estate.

[Barling Magna]

Stobart would be foolish to lose JOTA. They are in the one area of commercial aviation that is holding its own, or even expanding.

[Interested Passenger]

was today's Ukraine International flight the start of a new schedule?
WideWideroe seem to have stopped flying after a few weeks :(

[BA318]

was today's Ukraine International flight the start of a new schedule?
WideWideroe seem to have stopped flying after a few weeks :(

It was reported above that Wideroe were stopping flights. There's not much point in them when Norway doesn't let people in very easily at the moment. Supposed to return in March 2021.

[Expressflight]

The Ukraine International E195 flight was a charter for a ship's crew change. They have operated into SEN before for the same reason.

[southside bobby]

Reassuring perhaps to note that more than a Pier Southend-on-Sea has a relationship with the nautical industry too))

[DC3 Dave]

Reassuring perhaps to note that more than a Pier Southend-on-Sea has a relationship with the nautical industry too))

Indeed. And a mile or so to the east of the terminal, buried in the mud of the River Roach, lies what remains of HMS Beagle. Charles Darwin taught us that being adaptable vastly increases your chances of survival. For example, a small flexible airport would be in prime position to take advantage of possibly vastly reduced numbers of those able to afford a flight to the continent.

Covid, global warming and a huge chasm between the haves and have nots could conspire to wipe out the opportunity for the masses to fly vast distances for less than the cost of a pub lunch.

Perhaps huge airports would would not be able adapt to an elite requiring fewer than 30 departures a day.

Remember when there wasn’t enough to go round for the dinosaurs.......

[davidjohnson6]

DC3 - I'm not sure I follow your argument. You seem to be saying that you believe the number of people flying is likely to reduce significantly, at least in the short term. You seem to also say that being adaptable is also a good thing as it allows one to survive better when circumstances change
It seems highly likely that other airports in the south east of the UK will also be willing to change their business model given a significant reduction of pax flights

Why would Southend have an advantage over these other airports ? AFAIK, Southend doesn't have a significant cargo capacity of which it can make greater use. It seems unlikely that PPL numbers in Essex will grow significantly. Southend doesn't have a suitable climate for aircraft storage. I doubt that SEN will become a major airline engineering base. Military/emergency services use of SEN seems unlikely to grow. Anyone heading to London in a private jet presumably has their eye on London City

Southend in the last few years has functioned pretty much as London's overflow airport - seeing growth because London's 5 other larger pax airports were pretty full (at least at peak times) and SEN could also offer pax a more pleasant experience.
How does being SEN being adaptable give it any particular advantages or sizeable niches which other airports won't also be targetting ? I just can't see Felixstowe, Tilbury and their ilk having a big increase in the need for air charters

[AirportPlanner1]

I get Dave’s rationale - it’s the same principle as Aldi, Iceland, Lidl prospering over the last few years because they were more nimble with their smaller ranges and stores than the ‘Big 4’ who were lumbered with huge volumes of floorspace that was no longer wanted or needed. But in this case his application is flawed as he is looking at it one dimensionally.

The big thing he misses is location - if we assume runway length isn’t such an issue Luton is also quite small but has stronger existing non-passenger activities and is geographically better located as it’s reach is wider.

The other is how practically such a scenario would play out - in reality the giants of Gatwick, Heathrow and Stansted would collapse. This would allow a new more nimble owner to take them on at a discount, turn what’s not needed into housing and retain a single long runway and terminal for the 30 flights.

[southside bobby]

Ah well for Stobart to finally finally succeed in the Masterplan a general national & societal collapse is then obviously required .

WAIT....Oooops Oh dear they could well be right... Devilish.

[southside bobby]

Dave may well be the Nu Nu Age Guru...

Just require the Carvairs & Super Freighters back on the ramp to fly the only & remaining monied pax with their Daimlers & Jaguars to the Continent and.......Complete)).

[OC37]

Anyone heading to London in a private jet presumably has their eye on London City

Ahem ... London-Biggin Hill, the specialist private jet airport of London!

[DC3 Dave]

Ah well for Stobart to finally finally succeed in the Masterplan a general national & societal collapse is then obviously required .

Well at least they’re prepared to lead by example.

[SWBKCB]

By getting in first and having a crisis and collapse before everybody else? :ok:

And the way I read DC3 Dave's original post was that if demand falls significantly, small airports with their lower overall cost base would have an advantage - bigger airports would be spreading their higher fixed costs over a smaller number of customers, so would lose their economy of scale advantage.

And no, I don't remember the dinosaurs! :eek:

[OC37]

By getting in first and having a crisis and collapse before everybody else? :ok:

And the way I read DC3 Dave's original post was that if demand falls significantly, small airports with their lower overall cost base would have an advantage - bigger airports would be spreading their higher fixed costs over a smaller number of customers, so would lose their economy of scale advantage.

And no, I don't remember the dinosaurs! :eek:

But the bigger airports generally have a financial infrastructure backing them to support a prolonged downturn in revenue!

[bricquebec]

In the absence of significant interchange traffic it may also be a matter of catchment area. Many airports have a 360degree catchment area. Many coastal airports have a 270 degree market, whilst SEN has, at best, a 200 degree market place.

[southside bobby]

This is happening...

The Co-op (local supermarkets) reporting sharp increase in sales/revenue due to smaller/ locality shopping.

More persuasion perhaps toward that Masterplan.

[southside bobby]

Ah Dinosaurs...

Pterodactyls and all.......

[AirportPlanner1]

In the absence of significant interchange traffic it may also be a matter of catchment area. Many airports have a 360degree catchment area. Many coastal airports have a 270 degree market, whilst SEN has, at best, a 200 degree market place.

Again, far too simplistic. Ciudad Real has a 360 degree catchment. Barcelona has about a 160 degree catchment....

[davidjohnson6]

You can always find exceptions to a rule.... but having a 200 degree catchment instead of a 360 degree catchment tends to decrease passenger numbers.

[OC37]

You can always find exceptions to a rule.... but having a 200 degree catchment instead of a 360 degree catchment tends to decrease passenger numbers.

I'd suggest less than 200, more like 90, from the A13 to joining the road to Chelmsford/Colchester (indeed STN) at the Battlesbridge roundabout with the A127 somewhere inbetween

[bricquebec]

Again, far too simplistic. Ciudad Real has a 360 degree catchment. Barcelona has about a 160 degree catchment....
And the population of the Cuidad Real area compared to the Barcelona Region? I don't know, but I also know that Cuidad Real is the first stop on the high speed rail link out of Madrid heading toward Seville which, whenever I travel to Cordoba on business, seems to attract large numbers of potential travellers to Madrid airport.

[AirportPlanner1]

The point is it’s not radius but catchment, market and travel time. Most UK airports don’t truly have a 360 catchment. Many large European airports don’t have a 360 catchment either...half of Amsterdam’s for example is in the sea. Milan and Zurich theoretically have 360, but it’s severed by mountains.

[OC37]

The point is it’s not radius but catchment, market and travel time. Most UK airports don’t truly have a 360 catchment. Many large European airports don’t have a 360 catchment either...half of Amsterdam’s for example is in the sea. Milan and Zurich theoretically have 360, but it’s severed by mountains.

Half, if not more than half, of Schiphol's catchment are flown in/out of SPL on the KLM network hub operation, much the same for Swiss's network in/out ZRH and Austrian's in/out VIE, just check some of the connection times between flights at ZRH & VIE, totally professional hub operations.

[albertocsx]

Now that my home airport has been mentioned:
75,000 inhabitants in Ciudad Real proper. Catchment area: 216,000 (30 min), 394,000 (60 min, 3,951,000 if rail station is built), 1,629,000 (120 min, 5,178,000 if rail station is built). Travel time between CQM and Madrid-Atocha would be similar to that between SEN and London-Liverpool Street.
1,260,000 in Barcelona proper. Catchment area: 4,200,000 (30 min), 6,000,000 (60 min), 7,300,000 (120 min).
183,000 in Southend-on-Sea. Catchment area: 8,200,000 according to marketing team.

One of the reasons I moved to Southend Airport for work was that it reminded me in some way of my local airport. SEN is for me an example of how good planning and a convenient train station can attract new airlines and passengers. Under new management, CQM is also improving but with a totally different business model (aircraft parking and, in a few months time, maintenance and scrapping). Until a railway station is built in the mentioned high-speed line, Ciudad Real cannot realistically attract any passenger service except for regional/low-cost traffic (to Barcelona and Balearics/Canaries in Spain and to Romania). The managing team knows this and they want to consolidate as a maintenance hub before trying any other options. The previous team (up to 2012) also knew it, but when Madrid "took" all the low-cost companies that were meant to operate in Ciudad Real (Ryanair, Wizz, Blue Air, bmibaby,...), they rushed everything with the results we all know.

Back on topic, it's difficult forecast what the future will bring to Southend, but in my personal opinion it is a great airport to fly from or work at, and the airport will maybe struggle for a couple of years, but there will always be new opportunities that, if management takes advantage of them, will get everything back on track.

[compton3bravo]

A few insights into Cuidad Real the capital of Castille-La Mancha It is 200 kilometres (128 miles) south of Madrid and when Ryanair flew there for a few months they called it Madrid South! Visited the airport a few years ago when travelling back to the UK and stopping overnight in Toledo and took the opportunity to have a quick look. Lovely looking airport but that is about it. Cuidad Real has a population of about 80,000 and no other large towns nearby and has been mentioned is on the high speed line to Seville.No comparison to Barcelona sorry AP1.
Spain is a large and mostly rural country and it takes between 10-12 hours to drive north-south on excellent quiet (often very quiet) motorways so it is only the big conurbations and holiday areas on the Costas where the passengers are.

[AirportPlanner1]

I’m glad people have delved deep into my deliberately provocative examples of Ciudad Real and Amsterdam because it goes to show once and for all that using circular radius and the sea as barometers of potential is mostly useless.

[OC37]

I’m glad people have delved deep into my deliberately provocative examples of Ciudad Real and Amsterdam because it goes to show once and for all that using circular radius and the sea as barometers of potential is mostly useless.

But you were tending to favour extremes:

1. SPL is the only airport serving AMS and the home base and hub of an airline group operating a combined fleet of some 208 aircraft whereas LON is served by some six and two half airports and SEN neither a home base nor hub of an airline.

2. ZRH is the only airport serving ZRH and the home base and hub of an airline operating a fleet of some 90 aircraft and then some, ditto as above.

3. MXP is one of two and one half airports serving MIL but to the north of MXP are the stunningly beautiful Italian lakes, the Alps and the Swiss border, these are not wasted potential catchment but they are catchment, people travel to MXP specifically for lakes & mountains holidays and during the winter skiing holidays whilst, by comparison, Southend-on-Sea might have the longest pier but not it's exactly an international tourist holiday attraction nor destination.

[LTNman]

SEN is for me an example of how good planning and a convenient train station can attract new airlines and passengers.


For many reasons despite the Stobart investment, a good passenger experience and a convenient station the airport is going to struggle big time when there is capacity at London’s other airports. It is the furthest away from Central London (but only by a mile compared with Stansted) has the longest travel time and doesn’t have a direct link to the UK motorway network. Southend will flourish again but only when the other airports run out of slots and when airlines feel they have a need for SEN due to a lack of alternatives.

I note Eastern Airways new Teeside service to Heathrow. That would not have happened 6 months ago and could have been a natural route for Southend when other airports could not offer appropriate slots.

[OC37]

For many reasons despite the Stobart investment, a good passenger experience and a convenient station the airport is going to struggle big time when there is capacity at London’s other airports. It is the furthest away from Central London, has the longest travel time and doesn’t have a direct link to the UK motorway network. Southend will flourish again but only when the other airports run out of slots and when airlines feel they have a need for SEN due to a lack of alternatives.

In fairness Southend does have the A127 that I have driven many a time and a faster road than some motorways I could mention, on to the M25 a short dash southbound to the Dartford and then 'freedom', heading north then a slightly longer dash M25 to M11 then the A14, avoiding the M25/M1 congestion hotspot, to connect up with the M1 & M6 significantly farther north, heading for the west or south-west though then one is buggered!

[LTNman]

I am not knocking the airport as it could teach all the big boys a few lessons about the passenger experience but it is a struggle to work out what is holding Southend back apart from its location.

[southside bobby]

..."Once and for all that circular radius & sea as barometers of potential is mostly useless".........Priceless.

[OC37]

I am not knocking the airport as it could teach all the big boys a few lessons about the passenger experience but it is a struggle to work out what is holding Southend back apart from its location.

Well anyone coming from the north-east and east anglia etc. would be driving an hour or so past STN just to reach SEN, anyone coming thru/across the Dartford then SEN & STN are a similar distance but then they have LGW already in their neck of the woods, a railway line running alongside SEN airfield with a station a stone's throw from the terminal is a gem even if the train transit times are not, but take a look on GE at Radlett airfield, that has two railway lines alongside the former airfield, one either side, and they shut that airfield down due lack of interest!

[Expressflight]

For many reasons despite the Stobart investment, a good passenger experience and a convenient station the airport is going to struggle big time when there is capacity at London’s other airports. It is the furthest away from Central London (but only by a mile compared with Stansted) has the longest travel time and doesn’t have a direct link to the UK motorway network. Southend will flourish again but only when the other airports run out of slots and when airlines feel they have a need for SEN due to a lack of alternatives.

I believe you are correct in that assessment.

It was certainly the case pre-COVID that SEN benefitted from the paucity of LON slots so they will suffer from that not being the case in the next few years. Of course SEN will not be entirely constrained by that because it's natural catchment for flights to the Med and other European beach destinations is large enough that it should remain theoretically attractive to the likes of RYR and EZY. It's more a case for both those carriers as to whether they would rather concentrate the reduced number of travellers (which may continue for some time) onto flights from their respective hubs of STN and LTN. On the other hand they may think that offering a more local departure point will help in their maximising a smaller overall market. Predicting what is likely to happen is simply impossible and will remain so for many months by the look of it.

What can be said with some certainty is that SEN is unlikely to again see 2 mppa for a couple of years and the much touted 5 mppa can only remain a distant aspiration.

[southside bobby]

Reality rules OK with Expressflight...Well to an extent.

The only constant through the duration perhaps is going to be Stobart & the question of their own durability.

Was their ever the conclusion even Pre virus what SEN actually is...a local or London Airport?

Other very important factors that AirportPlanner1 requires to interrogate along side radii in comparative assertions & assumptions may well appear to be LOGIC & nearly as tellingly HISTORY notwithstanding business too.

[SWBKCB]

Was their ever the conclusion even Pre virus what SEN actually is...a local or London Airport?

Does it matter? Similar, doesn't Pprune love a good discussion on catchment areas.... :rolleyes:

One thing that history does show us is that when times are hard, airlines consolidate and it's the smaller/weaker bases that go.

[southside bobby]

Does it matter?...Well yes with all due respect it possibly does...Not in the world order of things perhaps but certainly for the future of SEN.

We have observed so many & varying claims from day one ranging from SEN being an important addition to the London market thru now when the saving roll of the dice is imagined as perhaps a very local market.

Catchment is probably an important word here in the SE too I would have thought with up to 6 London Airports...The word has importance & meaning to both airline & airport marketers & last used quite recently probably by the SEN CEO himself in the media,

True re consolidation & lessons from history learnt & to be learnt.

[DC3 Dave]

There are around 1.5 million people living in Essex and (my guesstimate) another 2.5 million in the north-east quadrant of Greater London. All these people should be able to access SEN within an hour or so. But there’s a problem. They can also reach STN or LGW in that time. Or even LTN / LHR depending on what side of the catchment area they reside.

The real problem is SEN needs to be able to attract people; to offer them a choice over other airports. Having this really nice airport is great but with 3 or 4 departures a day only a handful of people will find it works for them. It’s going to take something really special to start growing again and finding the momentum that took years to build up.

[davidjohnson6]

SEN will start growing again with major airlines using A320/B737 aircraft in a significant way in about 2 years time, once Stansted during the early morning and late evening peaks is running at something close to capacity
Until then it has to focus on niche areas. For commercial scheduled pax flights that means the likes of FlyOne / Wideroe or (and I know there was endless debate about this a few years ago), thin routes which cannot sustain a 180+ seat aircraft, operated at low frequencies to airports not currently served from London. Essentially all the routes that Ryanair rejects because the potential pax numbers are too small or the route is difficult for some reason

Perhaps a route to Strasbourg with Volotea might be something to pursue for summer 2022 ? Alternatively, would Binter Canarias consider a route with an E195 to Tenerife North airport ?

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps a route to Strasbourg with Volotea might be something to pursue for summer 2022 ? Alternatively, would Binter Canarias consider a route with an E195 to Tenerife North airport ?

If there are no capacity issues, why would these airlines choose SEN over an airport with more 'brand recognition' i.e. a 'proper' London airport.

Is SEN the short-haul equivalent of the Gatwick long haul 'waiting room'? Where you have to go where you can't get where you really want to go?

[davidjohnson6]

I don't believe either Strasbourg or Tenerife North can (even in normal times) support a 180-seat aircraft to London. Ryanair has tried both routes from London, and Iberia tried TFN-Heathrow
Gatwick's charges are heavily weighted to favour 150+ seat aircraft at the expense of airlines flying 80-seat aicraft - hence why Flybe left Gatwick. I'm thinking specifically of a Volotea B717 or a Binter E195

[SWBKCB]

Times have changed - I think Gatwicks charges might be a bit more flexible now.

[SKOJB]

SEN will start growing again with major airlines using A320/B737 aircraft in a significant way in about 2 years time, once Stansted during the early morning and late evening peaks is running at something close to capacity
Until then it has to focus on niche areas. For commercial scheduled pax flights that means the likes of FlyOne / Wideroe or (and I know there was endless debate about this a few years ago), thin routes which cannot sustain a 180+ seat aircraft, operated at low frequencies to airports not currently served from London. Essentially all the routes that Ryanair rejects because the potential pax numbers are too small or the route is difficult for some reason

Perhaps a route to Strasbourg with Volotea might be something to pursue for summer 2022 ? Alternatively, would Binter Canarias consider a route with an E195 to Tenerife North airport ?

A wish list indeed although can’t even see the likes of FlyOne/Wideroe returning in 2021!

[davidjohnson6]

Any other ideas for scheduled pax airlines that might be interested in SEN ? I've come up with 2 ideas but am not sure everyone here is convinced.... !

[SKOJB]

Any other ideas for scheduled pax airlines that might be interested in SEN ? I've come up with 2 ideas but am not sure everyone here is convinced.... !

Thats just the point, nobody knows in this current climate with routes and schedules changing almost weekly. It’s hard to predict how aviation will look in 3 months with the prospect of further lockdowns on the horizon, let alone SEN recovery in 3 years!

[DC3 Dave]

I think this proves that people from west of the capital will fly from SEN if there is a good reason to do so.

https://www.southendstandard.co.uk/news/18730472.man-arrested-plane-southend-airport-domestic-abuse/

Probably thought he could lose himself in the crowds.

[southside bobby]

This is happening...Part Two.

Train operators are facing a return to the Fifties where the biggest passenger demand is for Summer day trips to the seaside rather than the morning commute to the office.
Rail firms reporting far busier weekend services & crowding on coastal routes with London commuter trains remaining largely empty.

With a bow to The Guardian.

[EI-BUD]

SEN had a catchment started in the business case for developing the airport of 600,000 people.
It's a great little airport, though the challenge is they are very reliant on traffic originating in the catchment, and the mainstay of routes has been sun spots geared towards leisure traffic. Sadly with easyJet out they are heavily reliant on Ryanair and sadly, given their enormous presence at STN they'll not be prioritising SEN any time soon.

SEN will need to draw in a new based carrier such as Wizz or potentially Blue Air... Outside of these it's hard to see them getting back to significant scale in the next 3 years...

[LTNman]

Catchment area by the hour from the horses mouth. Page 9

https://www.rochford.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/files/planning_jaap_exj007b_avia.pdf

[DC3 Dave]

Ok. Thank you Stobart. You’ve ploughed in unbelievable sums of money and given us an airport beyond the dreams of anyone familiar with what existed 10 years ago.

You didn’t try and tart up the old terminal you built a new one. Then extended it. You saw a major commuter rail line to London at the perimeter and built a station opposite the terminal, a minute’s walk to the London bound platform from the arrivals exit.

You, of course, found a way of extending the runway - ok not to an ideal 2,000 metres, but to 1,856 + extensions.

In in more recent times you’ve managed to repair and upgrade all taxiways from the terminal to the runway (don’t scoff, one was not in use and one was in a poor state) built a de-icing platform away from the apron, and let’s not forget the runway, resurfaced and grooved just over a year ago at the cost of millions.

Green? How many other airports generate around a third of their own energy costs? Some investment required to build the solar farm to achieve that.

Car Parks. Sorted in advance of being needed.

Bizzjets. Facility provided. If not a great success another investment.

Amazon. Well done.

Inside the terminal. Show me an airport of comparable size that could give you more.

You even provided a hanger for the Vulcan that sat forlorn in the open for far too long.

But now you are in trouble. Covid19 is not your fault but the Flybe / Virgin Connect business certainly is - no matter that you try to blame it on the pandemic.

So you have this great little airport. And given there’s no shortage of investors willing to feed on others distress, sooner or later you may succumb and SEN will find itself under new management.

Perhaps given all the money spent and possibly written off a new owner would focus on building a successful regional airport rather than the ridiculous talk of 10 then 20 million pax p.a.

[LTNman]

I think Stobart paid £20m for Southend and then invested around £100m. It was offered £700m for a quarter share in I think March then Corvid struck.

[long final]

Not sure if that £700M offer really was credible. However that's all in the past. Through all this a simple question. Considering the loss the airport made with 2.1M pax a year and looking at the capital available to Stobart, how long before they run out of cash, and what chance the shareholders will inject further investment?

[southside bobby]

The figures quoted mean little without context.

The numbers quoted for a quarter share valued SEN then at £2.8 Billion which would be highly unlikely.

Even so...If correct it perhaps may portray the hubris or lack of clarity within the boardroom in not accepting.

[Barling Magna]

SEN's immediate future may depend upon foreign airlines. After all it makes little difference whether London-bound foreign visitors use SEN, STN, LGW or LTN if they are simply aiming for London. History shows us that many foreign airlines used SEN in the 1950s, 60s and 70s to bring in tourists, students, shoppers etc to Southend for easy transport on to London. SEN is now a much more attractive airport for London due to its rapid transit times through the terminal and straight on to the train. No doubt the SEN management are well aware of this and marketing like fury with foreign airlines......

[southside bobby]

Short update re the above brochure style listing...

Green...Unclear what is meant but at first read appears a poor result...As Stobart are part of the Biomass industry very poor.
For instance & just as a comparison of course STN over a far larger site awarded Level3+ carbon neutral status by ACI & the Ist UK airport to hold both ISO14001 & OHSAS 18001 standard.

Car Parks sorted...Well not really you must read the local press too reviewing/reporting the parking shambles around the site.Perhaps researching the reasoning behind the recent planning rejection of the new hotel could be beneficial.

Amazon...Well yes (or no) SEN was not the airport of choice of course.

[southside bobby]

"No doubt the SEN management are well aware of this and marketing like fury with foreign airlines".

Any management would/should have been doing this of course before the virus....& the result was?

[DC3 Dave]

I repeat. Car parks sorted. No one parks on the streets outside the airport because of a lack of space inside or that it’s in anyway time consuming to make your way along level access to the terminal. The only reason people park outside is because they can and it’s free. It’s up to the council to agree an arrangement with residents to prevent this. Stobart would welcome new restrictions outside as they are - sorry were - being denied revenue at the moment. Either way it’s out of their control.

Because of the lack of parking restrictions outside it’s undeniable that the proposed location of the second hotel would impact on the problem. However a solution is not beyond anyone’s wit with no shortage of available space right now. The arrangement could always be allowed to slide in future years.

In my brochure I forgot to mention the tower. Built specifically to allow the top brass to visit and survey their kingdom.

[pabely]

"No doubt the SEN management are well aware of this and marketing like fury with foreign airlines".

Any management would/should have been doing this of course before the virus....& the result was?

I have to agree. All other airports have plenty of capacity spare now, I just can't see how SEN can attract anything new in this climate.
Are the handlers working a 8 hour shift, doing 2 hours work then sitting about doing nothing for 6 hours?

[southside bobby]

Ahhh...The Stobart maxim again build it & they will come...(Car Parks)

Do Stobart actually work well with anyone? ie resident airlines or even the Council...One would think at least Stobart & the Council could work hand in glove.(Same purpose surely)

Of course Re the tower perhaps too it supplies the vantage point used to supply the backdrop to the numerous publicity shots of parked up/stored liners an uncharitable fellow may suggest is being portrayed & masquerading as a busy ramp perhaps.

PS...STN uses it`s own Police drone for that))

[Expressflight]

"No doubt the SEN management are well aware of this and marketing like fury with foreign airlines".

Any management would/should have been doing this of course before the virus....& the result was?
southside bobby

"The result was" in the past couple of years Wizzair, Ryanair, Loganair, Wideroe and ASL that come immediately to mind. Plus easyJet also increased the size of their base. We're talking about new business they succeeded in attracting and only Loganair can be said at this stage to have been a failure, although the LDY route would still be running but for COVID.

There are plenty of things that can be usefully discussed concerning how difficult it will be to rebuild SEN's passenger numbers but suggesting the management failed to attract new carriers in the recent past is not one of them.

[southside bobby]

Not too sure that was the direction of the original post referred to however...It appeared to use the example of foreign airlines using/visiting SEN in the 1950`s 60`s & 70`s & none of those were actually SEN based.

That was the reference & starting point for the reply... So the visiting airlines would be? ....WZZ reducing...LOG gone...Wideroe gone (temp) tbd...Hence the question which appeared reasonable to propose.

Perhaps another interesting posit would be why has LOG gone because of COVID anyway?...STN it`s rightful home perhaps is not a COVID free zone unfortunately.

[southside bobby]

Unfortunately I`m pretty sure there is not too much to usefully discuss & use as comfort blanket for SEN or for that matter any airport & all of us even down to personal outlook are in deep trouble one way or another especially as we have a Government whose view is that UK business is Pret.(Yes that is a full stop)

Encouraged & bribed & even told to save Pret =(The Nation nowadays) the same imbibers are of course blamed for the totally expected & predicted COVID increase with causation now of further drastic measures to be applied which will be further reflected negatively within this industry.

Therefore will pass further on the idea thanks that there are plenty of things that can be usefully discussed concerning how difficult it will be to rebuild SEN`s passenger numbers.

The Government with airline/airport failure will duck many green issues but yielded up will be the brown sites to be inherited by Bovis et al for lots of £££ making & house building thereby solving another huge problem for them....No 1 Old Airport Drive anyone...situate on a nice corner plot))...Carvair Close...DHL Drive...

PS...Just a thought...has anyone checked if Stobart have registered a Homes Division))...Perhaps I will check this end for MAG Homes))...Ferrovial? OMG hang on they ARE builders!

[DC3 Dave]

[QUOTE= PS...STN uses it`s own Police drone for that))[/QUOTE]

Why do they need a police drone when they’ve got you!

Apologies. Unworthy. Withdrawn.


But but speaking of drones, Loganair arrived at SEN accompanied by the wail of bagpipes and marching men in skirts. “Just the start” we were told. EDI and others may well follow.

But it all went sour in no time at all. Stobart announced that GLA would be one of the new Flybe (Connect) routes and Loganair pulled out of that one a couple of days later.

Then it all just dribbled away. Wouldn’t it be nice sometimes to be a fly on the wall as conversations take place that determine these things.

[SWBKCB]

The Government with airline/airport failure will duck many green issues but yielded up will be the brown sites to be inherited by Bovis et al for lots of £££ making & house building thereby solving another huge problem for them....No 1 Old Airport Drive anyone...situate on a nice corner plot))...Carvair Close...DHL Drive...


It's seems to be a common perception on these threads that the dimiss of the airline industry will be a boon for house-builders. So nobody has got any money for travel but plenty to spend on new homes? Sometimes I just don't understand economics.... :confused:

[inOban]

A substantial part of the population has plenty of disposable income. Indeed even more than they had six months ago, because they haven't been able to spend it.. In the present circumstances they just don't want to spend it on travel.

[SWBKCB]

Bit of a leap, though, from the current position to airports being closed. And if things get that bad, there will be plenty of other property looking to be re-purposed...

[davidjohnson6]

Commercial office space is likely to see a decline in use over the next few years - people might visit the office 3 days per week and work from home 2 days per week. That is likely to be much easier to convert into residential housing, and more appealing as somewhere to live compared to airports

[southside bobby]

Quote..."Sometimes I just don`t understand economics"...(funny face)

But surely that position appears to be the Government`s very own.

The position re housing for instance may appear oxymoronic but John Lewis for instance did not dream half their Flagship store would become flats as a market drastically changed.
It is called adaptation & evolution which happens more quickly with very sudden shift & change.

Why is it felt that only todays infrastructure & industries are inviolate...Slipways at Chatham & Portsmouth launching huge sailed battleships made from Good Ole English Oak anyone))...Plenty of aerodromes built over too since the dawn of commercial flight the world over & still it turns.

Last time I looked no airport in ENGLAND is owned by the Government they are owned by differing examples of enterprise & investment collectives that will have no return on their monies.Perhaps they will be reflecting on the only asset they have to quantify & monetize.

Note to Broker...Sell Airlines/Airports...buy Bovis/AstraZeneca))

[LTNman]

Throughout history most airlines will eventually fail or get taken over only to be replaced by new airlines. On the other hand airports handling passenger flights are harder to kill off and just seem to linger on in one form or another while they wait for the glory days again. I don’t see Southend disappearing even if it lost all of its passengers and airlines.

[OC37]

Last time I looked no airport in ENGLAND is owned by the Government they are owned by differing examples of enterprise & investment collectives that will have no return on their monies.Perhaps they will be reflecting on the only asset they have to quantify & monetize.))

NQY is owned by Cornwall Council

[fanrailuk]

NQY is owned by Cornwall Council

MME is also 75% owned by Tees Valley Combined Authority - with the other 25% Stobart Group

[OC37]

MME is also 75% owned by Tees Valley Combined Authority - with the other 25% Stobart Group

ISC is owned by the Duchy of Cornwall if that counts as government!

[HZ123]

If we turn the clock back to a time when there was much heated discussion as to a bright or no future for SEN, there were a number of us myself included that thought our airport with 3500 habitations thereon would be a massive attraction to the council, to name but one organisation. At the present that could be another option? I was involved in aviation for 47 years and I still see that prior to Covid there were to many airlines chasing to few passengers. If the credit card spending boom is gone then the airports future looks fragile?

[LGS6753]

Luton is owned by Luton Borough Council.
Stansted, East Midlands and Manchester are majority owned by a consortium of councils in the Manchester area.
All military airfields are owned by the MoD.

[southside bobby]

Not totally correct of course ...

MAG...Owner of Stansted, East Midlands and Manchester is 35.5% owned by Australian investment fund IFM Investors.

[commit aviation]

LGS6753: Stansted, East Midlands and Manchester are majority owned by a consortium of councils in the Manchester area.

southside bobby: Not totally correct of course ...

MAG...Owner of Stansted, East Midlands and Manchester is 35.5% owned by Australian investment fund IFM Investors.

Maybe I am splitting hairs but am I missing something - 35.5% would be a minority so the original statement was correct??
(Although I would accept bobby's original observation that the airport is not "council owned"!) :)

[southside bobby]

Not quite Orwellian yet...

A post is easy to edit but not so much the memory of the same short post of course is perhaps all to say....

Though an ungenerous observer may well think slightly underhand at least.

[southender]

Reported elsewhere that 25 easyJets to be parked up at SEN over the winter. Does this reinstate our ‘base’ status I wonder.

[pabely]

Cheap and close to where EZY want them if things recover more likely. Does SEN have that much space then?

[davidjohnson6]

Is the presence of the sea salt in the air nearby likely a factor in long term storage, or does a gap of a couple of miles make it a non-issue ?

[DC3 Dave]

Is the presence of the sea salt in the air nearby likely a factor in long term storage, or does a gap of a couple of miles make it a non-issue ?


Travels up to 50 miles inland, apparently.

https://pomametals.com/salt-air-inland-distance-for-metal/

The aircraft don’t just sit there, there is a turnover with some off to other airports as an exchange or sometimes not. Not unusual to see one take a spin around the coast and land 10 mins or so later.

[AirportPlanner1]

Reported elsewhere that 25 easyJets to be parked up at SEN over the winter. Does this reinstate our ‘base’ status I wonder.

I saw one fly over yesterday. It did make me wonder if the base closure is ‘temporary’ to save on staffing costs in what will be a savage winter, and possibly summer ‘21 too. And that it will be reinstated when/if things pick up. I appreciate its only parking but clearly there is still a relationship, the aircraft could have gone anywhere.

[southside bobby]

EZY appeared to have the exactly the same arrangement at STN previously.

Most probably a commercial arrangement with SEN making use of empty ramp space to further any income available to it.

[LTNman]

British Airways were parking part of their long haul and short haul fleet at Bournemouth. I am not expecting flights to New York any time soon.

[AirportPlanner1]

British Airways were parking part of their long haul and short haul fleet at Bournemouth. I am not expecting flights to New York any time soon.

With respect that’s a completely different set of circumstances which I’m sure you know only too well

[LTNman]

I would be delighted to see Easyjet return sooner rather than later or more likely never return.

In 2009 Easyjet closed their 3 aircraft East Midland base making 120 staff redundant. 11 years later the airport is still waiting for easyJet’s return.

It is not all bad news as Ryanair has got its foot in the door at Southend. It would just take an announcement from the airline next year or the year after of their intention to expand their Southend base and the airport could be transformed overnight.

[southside bobby]

Perhaps the difference between BAW & EZY parking could be explained.

[OC37]

I would be delighted to see Easyjet return sooner rather than later or more likely never return.

In 2009 Easyjet closed their 3 aircraft East Midland base making 120 staff redundant. 11 years later the airport is still waiting for easyJet’s return.

It is not all bad news as Ryanair has got its foot in the door at Southend. It would just take an announcement from the airline next year or the year after of their intention to expand their Southend base and the airport could be transformed overnight.

There is only so much RYR can operate out of SEN because of their choice to operate stretched B737's ... And any airport would be a better class of place without RYR present!

[southside bobby]

But perhaps without the employment of course!

[Planespeaking]

There is only so much RYR can operate out of SEN because of their choice to operate stretched B737's ... And any airport would be a better class of place without RYR present!

What's the point of having an upper class airport with no traffic??!!

[pabely]

Perhaps the difference between BAW & EZY parking could be explained.
I heard EZY were offered a parking deal they could not refuse, better for their cash flow but not Stobart. A least the relationship carrys on and maybe come better days they will return with a proper base again.

[OC37]

What's the point of having an upper class airport with no traffic??!!

What's the point of having RYR lowering the tone of the place? :)

[TOM100]

What's the point of having RYR lowering the tone of the place? :)

RYR is better than nothing !

[OC37]

RYR is better than nothing !

A personal opinion, a personal opinion :)

[southside bobby]

Quote...
"What`s the point of having RYR lowering the tone of the place? smiley face".........Classic.

Put that perhaps to the 94 Stobart Aviation employees at SEN due to lose their jobs shortly.

[TOM100]

An airport with some pax is not a personal opinion it’s a business reality - an airport with no pax is not a business

[LTNman]

An airport with 3 departures and 3 arrivals meaning the terminal has to open at 4am for a 6:30 departure and remain open until midnight for a 23:30 arrival could also be described as not a business. I noticed those timings the other day.

Three shifts of staff required to handle one set of flights each is not a good outcome.

[TOM100]

An airport with 3 departures and 3 arrivals meaning the terminal has to open at 4am for a 6:30 departure and remain open until midnight for a 23:30 arrival could also be described as not a business. I noticed those timings the other day.

Three shifts of staff required to handle one set of flights each is not a good outcome.

Not a viable one anyway.......

[Planespeaking]

What's the point of having RYR lowering the tone of the place? :)
'Tone' does not pay the bills, employ people or provide a viable business. You seem to have no commercial awareness, sadly.

[LTNman]

Southend is starting to remind me of Blackpool when they kicked out Jet2 to save money. The nuclear option? At some point all options will have to be considered to stem losses.

How Jet2 thought they had won a court battle

https://www.jet2.com/News/Jet2_com_Here_To_Stay_in_Blackpool/

Their victory did not last long as the airport was closed to get rid of them and then reopened.

Blackpool Airport management claimed late night and early morning operations by Jet2 were costly and unsustainable – forcing the airfield to operate at a loss.


https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/transport/jet2com-boss-rules-out-planes-ever-returning-blackpool-1200271

[AirportPlanner1]

Three shifts of staff required to handle one set of flights each is not a good outcome.

This isn’t so different to the winters of not so long ago, and the airport seemed to manage OK. There might be a single ATR leaving early with another couple later in the day and an easyjet to AMS and back mid-afternoon. Granted this is summer season still, but everyone is hurting at relative scales and the challenges faced at Southend are no different to those at many other smaller airports.

Passenger numbers are very low though. Dummy bookings for tomorrow show 55 reserved/checked in for Malaga, 9(!) for Palma, 64 to Faro and Vilnius it won’t let you book. That is of course assuming all turn up which is unlikely.

I also see there has been a further cull of flights after this week, next week until at least Half Term will see very few weekly flights.

[davidjohnson6]

To follow up on AirportPlanner's comment, it looks like SEN will see 11 departures in the week beginning Mon 05 Oct - 2 for Wizz, 9 for Ryanair and 0 for FlyOne/Wideroe
Wed, Thu and Sat will not see any departures. One begins to wonder if opening the terminal building on these 3 days is worthwhile

[OC37]

'Tone' does not pay the bills, employ people or provide a viable business. You seem to have no commercial awareness, sadly.

So an obnoxious and outspoken customer in a pub is better than an empty pub because he pays the bills ... Really?

[southside bobby]

That "obnoxious and outspoken customer" exists at many airports or "pubs" as the post laughingly refers to throughout UK/Europe so why is it thought then that SEN should be deprived of any future business that may possibly become available to save certainly jobs & perhaps it`s commercial future as related previously.

[southside bobby]

For all the "enthusiasts" here perhaps rather than use scattergun allusions the poster would use his self proclaimed superiority in matters business to hazard a view as to how long a business (Stobart in this instance) will last with little or no customers please.

"Cheapskates"...priceless! I would hazard a guess RYR are more successful at what they do than the posters alleged business.

[southside bobby]

Further...It appears the poster reveals too many prejudices to be much successful at business & customer relations))

[DC3 Dave]

The Chancellor has just announced a six month scheme allowing employers to pay their staff a minimum of one third of their salary (for working one third of their contracted hours). The Government will pay the balance of the salary.

A real opportunity for the airport to retain enough staff to keep functioning through the winter.

[southside bobby]

But NO sector targeting which ultimately is the more important.

The UK is now to face "permanent adjustments" to quote Mr Sunak.

To attempt to read that code at the moment may be difficult but is certainly not good news.

[LTNman]

But NO sector targeting which ultimately is the more important.

The UK is now to face "permanent adjustments" to quote Mr Sunak.

To attempt to read that code at the moment may be difficult but is certainly not good news.

Old news but soon forgotten:

British Airways received £300 million pounds from the UK government Covid Corporate Financing Facility

Hungarian Wizz got a further £300m despite a massive cash balance of around 1.5billion Euros

Ryanair got £600m despite having a cash balance of £4bn while the Irish government refused help including financial help to Aer Lingus

Easyjet received £600m.

Maybe the government should be supporting loss making airports rather than cash rich airlines?

[Planespeaking]

Old news but soon forgotten:

British Airways revived 300 million pounds from the UK government Covid Corporate Financing Facility

Hungarian Wizz got a further £300m despite a massive cash balance of around 1.5billion Euros

Ryanair got £600m despite having a cash balance of £4bn while the Irish government refused help including financial help to Aer Lingus

Easyjet received £600m.

Maybe the government should be supporting loss making airports rather than cash rich airlines?

Absolutely right!

[LTNman]

I am guessing but I assume £20m pointed in the direction of SEN will be more beneficial than £600m being handed over to Ryanair that doesn’t need any money. Meanwhile MOL takes great delight in criticising not only the UK government but also the Irish government and no doubt any government that has introduced quarantine requirements.

[Cloud1]

Hmmm give the airports money and not the airlines? So the airlines fail and the airports thrive with no operations. Airlines are not cash rich - that’s a myth. Reality is both parts of the equation require equal financial support, not one more than another.

[davidjohnson6]

SEN - or any other airport - will have to be very persuasive if it wants to get its hands on Govt cash
If the company owning / operating an airport goes bankrupt, the physical infrastructure stays in place. Even airports like Blackpool, Manston and Plymouth, remain in place but largely mothballed and, if demand were to rise, could be made usable again without enormous expenditure. Yes, things like landing systems will need work - but if air travel demand returns, then some company will likely emerge to buy the airport site, or a lease on it, and get the airport going again. It is very unlikely that a council with a potentially viable airport in its area that could boost the local economy would grant permission for the airport to be closed permanently and completely covered in housing

If Stobart went bust.... would you really expect SEN to become a huge housing estate ?

[southside bobby]

Manston anyone?...

Ahh yeah but no but...that is now to become a gigantic lorry park in the very latest plan (again).

[LTNman]

No different than airlines failing. The same directors will just form new airlines when there is an upturn. How many U.K. airlines are there now? How many has there been in the last 50 years? Failure rate I am guessing is around 95% so why should the government hand over money to a business with such a shocking track record?

[southside bobby]

In the "good times" much passes without too much scrutiny by most except those "concocting the deals".
When the bad times arrive & in the case of COVID a veritable calamity the horlicks of entanglement starts to becomes more & more evident in these airport sites owned by Council but leased out to take them off their hands & books for a Century or so with oh so many promises.(LTN & SEN spring to mind.)
Roosting chickens is a scenario.Sure that Southend Corporation is poring long & hard over what they themselves are signed up for.

[SWBKCB]

Even airports like Blackpool, Manston and Plymouth, remain in place but largely mothballed and, if demand were to rise, could be made usable again without enormous expenditure

Blackpool is still an active airfield, but a college has now been built on the site of the demolished terminal.

[LGS6753]

It has been said that the UK has too many airports. If that's the case, why preserve a glut?
On the other hand, the number of UK airlines has collapsed in recent years. Yes, new ones can be formed, but the current competitive environment makes the emergence of successful new operators very difficult and unlikely.

[LTNman]

Blackpool terminal was knocked down to save money, hours were reduced as was the fire cover and bought by Blackpool Council for £4m after selling it for £13m years before.

It has been said that the UK has too many airports. If that's the case, why preserve a glut?


There wasn’t a glut this time last year around London. Now all of the London’s flights could be channeled through one airport.

[LGS6753]

There wasn’t a glut this time last year around London. Now all of London’s flights could be channelled through one airport.

Of course you are right, but look at some of the regions where airports are competing to attract sufficient passengers to make a profit (Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Norwich, Bournemouth, Southampton, Prestwick, etc)

[DC3 Dave]

Of course you are right, but look at some of the regions where airports are competing to attract sufficient passengers to make a profit (Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Norwich, Bournemouth, Southampton, Prestwick, etc)

No reason to disagree with you or I wish to take issue with the fact that right now LTN is bucking the trend - relatively - and enjoying some success in the dreadful circumstances we find ourselves in (thank you Ms Collins). I just would like to point out that this is the Southend 2 thread.

[southside bobby]

Regarding "getaways" local newspaper stating " no flights currently on Southend Airport`s list of departures in October" ....cannot be right surely.

[Hawthorne]

Regarding "getaways" local newspaper stating " no flights currently on Southend Airport`s list of departures in October" ....cannot be right surely.

There is about 5 or so routes that will be running from SEN, but no flights 3 days a week. Anyone that hasn’t already been called back to work on the airport should probably start looking for a new job!

[LTNman]

The local rag is wrong then as it states there will be only 2 routes both to destinations that means quarantine on return. https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18749221.destinations-southend-airport-dwindling-due-coronavirus-pandemic/

I would assume the terminal will be closed on the day of no flights to save money and that many of the staff will become part timers? Not a good situation with bills to pay.

[DC3 Dave]

In a brave new world
with just a handful of planes
we’ll start all over again......


https://app.standard.co.uk/2020/10/01/stobart-declares-southend-airport-has-a-bright-future-despite-covid-19/content.html

[SKOJB]

In a brave new world
with just a handful of planes
we’ll start all over again......


https://app.standard.co.uk/2020/10/01/stobart-declares-southend-airport-has-a-bright-future-despite-covid-19/content.html

Article suggests airport talking with other LCC. Not many left to talk too and in this current climate very little chance of attracting new business. EZY probably gone for good, RYR may add a small number of routes if demand is there and cannot see Wizz expanding nor Jet2 coming on board With LTN and STN next door and well below capacity. That leaves TUI who are already culling routes from existing bases!

[Tranceaddict]

Glynn Jones on local radio (BBC Essex) yesterday, interview starts about 13 minutes in, then phone in debate throughout the next hour or so

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08rf4hr

[Buster the Bear]

Volotea would make sense for a base, but I guess that depends upon the outcome of negotiations surrounding the UK exit from the EU?

[Tranceaddict]

PASSENGER TERMINAL CLOSED ON WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY AND SATURDAY. NO COMMMERCIAL PASSENGER DIVERSION FLIGHTS CAN BE ACCEPTED THAT REQUIRE USE OF THE TERMINAL, ASSOCIATED STANDS AND HANDLING FACILITIES.

FROM: 01 Oct 2020 11:30 GMT (12:30 BST) TO: 01 Nov 2020 00:59 GMT. SCHEDULE: WED THU SAT 0001-2359

[pamann]

Volotea would make sense for a base, but I guess that depends upon the outcome of negotiations surrounding the UK exit from the EU?

A virtually unknown airline here in the U.K. no chance.

Aer Lingus have more awareness In the U.K. and even they couldn’t make LGW work a few years back.

[davidjohnson6]

Perhaps Transavia might like to have a go at flying between Southend and Amsterdam ? It's the only 2019 top 5 route from SEN (it was the #1 busiest route !) which is completely unserved and unlikely to see the same demographic as KLM's service from London City....

[AirportPlanner1]

A virtually unknown airline here in the U.K. no chance.

Aer Lingus have more awareness In the U.K. and even they couldn’t make LGW work a few years back.

A lot has changed since EI days. Brand awareness means much less now for one thing with Skyscanner etc. Plus one thing SEN have been good at is locally marketing the place. It’s purely hypothetical of course but I’ve thought for a while Volotea would be a good fit. I think a Wizz Med operation would be more likely even if they do get a 20+ base at LGW.

[Red Four]

PASSENGER TERMINAL CLOSED ON WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY AND SATURDAY. NO COMMMERCIAL PASSENGER DIVERSION FLIGHTS CAN BE ACCEPTED THAT REQUIRE USE OF THE TERMINAL, ASSOCIATED STANDS AND HANDLING FACILITIES.

FROM: 01 Oct 2020 11:30 GMT (12:30 BST) TO: 01 Nov 2020 00:59 GMT. SCHEDULE: WED THU SAT 0001-2359
Inevitable I guess in order to keep staffing costs down. Why then are Ryanair still selling Dublin flights available on the 28/29th & 31st October?

[AirportPlanner1]

Inevitable I guess in order to keep staffing costs down. Why then are Ryanair still selling Dublin flights available on the 28/29th & 31st October?

When I noticed the cuts a couple of weeks back there were other one-off flights for sale on these dates, which coincides with Half Term

[EI-BUD]

A virtually unknown airline here in the U.K. no chance.

Aer Lingus have more awareness In the U.K. and even they couldn’t make LGW work a few years back.
Citing Aer Lingus Gatwick operation as a comparator is nonsense. Aer Lingus has a robust business model but clearly easyJet made a concerted effort to see them off.

The more general issue is that an airline with a name that has a geographical significance (Aer Lingus - Ireland, Air France - France etc) rarely has success in markets unrelated. Therefore, in the UK Aer Lingus would be thought of an airline that flies to Ireland and potentially to North America.

Volotea is a great suggestion. The Southend Market is heavily reliant on the catchment, so a big marketing bang could hit the spot together with some lead in price activity. Beyond its own marketing they could use tour operators and online travel agents who serve a strong market segment eg Expedia, Edreams, Kayak. Clearly the timing is not right now, but potentially mid 21 or when we see the back of this virus.

​​​​​​A 2 aircraft base in time wild be sensible and starting out of Ryanair's way, Southend could provide a niche away from the other London airports.

​​​

[WHBM]

PASSENGER TERMINAL CLOSED ON WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY AND SATURDAY. NO COMMMERCIAL PASSENGER DIVERSION FLIGHTS CAN BE ACCEPTED THAT REQUIRE USE OF THE TERMINAL, ASSOCIATED STANDS AND HANDLING FACILITIES.

FROM: 01 Oct 2020 11:30 GMT (12:30 BST) TO: 01 Nov 2020 00:59 GMT. SCHEDULE: WED THU SAT 0001-2359
Bit of a challenge for London City operators as the bad weather closes in.

[Alteagod]

Thats putting it mildly. What would be nearest alternate

[SKOJB]

Thats putting it mildly. What would be nearest alternate

SOU usually receives a lot of LCY diversions

[southside bobby]

Oooops...Don`t forget STN...Has been used in very recent times by the DND.
SWR nominate STN as their #1 alternate.
BACF have a very close connection with STN & in pre-covid times STN often turned down diversionary requests due lack of stands at peak.
Pretty sure all will be well.

[pabely]

SOU usually receives a lot of LCY diversions
I think you are talking very different times, alternatives would be any London airports as they are all running well below capacity now.

[Buster the Bear]

A virtually unknown airline here in the U.K. no chance.

Aer Lingus have more awareness In the U.K. and even they couldn’t make LGW work a few years back.


That's the spirit. If an airline commences and the prices are good, then with excellent marketing, no reason for them not to do well. Vueling as an example. Unknown brand..........Still fill planes out of UK airports, or should I say did pre-covid.

[WHBM]

I think you are talking very different times, alternatives would be any London airports as they are all running well below capacity now.
That may be true of runway capacity, but the continuing facilities beyond that can be notably more tedious. Stansted is known for making difficulty with coaches that have not gone through a long approval process. One of the upsides of Southend was diverted passengers normally came straight out, and local coach operators were well alive to quick turnouts. Arriving at Stansted on a remote stand and then being plonked on the back of a 30 minute queue for immigration behind all the Ryanair arrivals is not LCY's market.

[southside bobby]

Needs must when the devil (weather) drives...Would also (not) explain diversionary requests whether approved or refused then at STN.

Looking beyond nifty local coaches STN is by far the better alternate in bad w/x for the flight deck of course.

[LTNman]

Regardless of the merits of Southend as a diversionary airport, if the terminal is closed then it is closed. End of story.

[asdf1234]

Catchment area by the hour from the horses mouth. Page 9

https://www.rochford.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/files/planning_jaap_exj007b_avia.pdf
Compare and contrast the identified catchment area in the planning document to the assertion made by Warwick Brady at Friday's Investor Presentation that, "Southend Airport is a London Airport with a catchment of 8 million...."

I don't blame him for attempting to polish the turd but it is time to be realistic or face the prospect of losing it all. With no positive operational cash flow since 2014 the strategy needs to change. That starts with recognising the fact that Southend is definitely a regional airport with a catchment area to match, and future business planning needs to be tailored accordingly.

[LTNman]

With a direct rail connection to London they would consider themselves to be a London Airport but then Birmingham Airport also has a direct rail link to London. The secret is putting London in front of the name just as Lydd Airport did.

[Barling Magna]

Compare and contrast the identified catchment area in the planning document to the assertion made by Warwick Brady at Friday's Investor Presentation that, "Southend Airport is a London Airport with a catchment of 8 million...."

I don't blame him for attempting to polish the turd but it is time to be realistic or face the prospect of losing it all. With no positive operational cash flow since 2014 the strategy needs to change. That starts with recognising the fact that Southend is definitely a regional airport with a catchment area to match, and future business planning needs to be tailored accordingly.

I almost agree, but it can't be denied that a lot of SEN's pax came from east London according to surveys and that's a lotta folk. So it's a regional, or even sub-regional, airport plus a slice of the metropolis.

[SWBKCB]

Please, not another Southend catchement area discussion.... :{

[LTNman]

Probably better than talking about Southend’s 2 departures today at 16:20 and 19:55 that are both going to Bucharest ensuring neither airline makes a profit. Ryanair targeting Wizz?

[LTNman]

I thought I read there was actually only one Amazon night flight? The claim is that the airport would not survive without it.

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18771542.amazon-night-flights-keeping-southend-airport-going/

Quote from KEVIN Buck is shadow councillor in charge of transport.

Although this may be annoying for many, it’s also keeping the airport going and the staff still employed, working. Stop the night flights and there will be a bigger cull of staff. Having lost Easyjet I don’t think the airport will survive if these flights are stopped.


But this report says not only will the airport survive but that Amazon flights could be expanded.

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18771912.airports-strong-modest-start-covid-recovery/

The trading update also revealed the airport’s deal with Amazon to provide night-time cargo flights could be expanded.

[Expressflight]

LTNman

I think they are trying to keep the number of ASL flights that take place during the night restriction hours to a minimum - just one at present - while the other three flights take place during the unrestricted hours. As they are restricted to 120 night movements per month, removing a couple of ASL movements from this has simply resulted in more night bizjet movements so in fact they are making more money than previously when the ASL movements took up virtually all the 120 night slots. There is talk of another ASL destination being added but talk is all it is at present.

While I'm here I do find some of the recent posts rather pointless with all their speculation of what might or might not happen to SEN in the future, although no disrespect to those posters who want to discuss those things now if they want to. There is no certainly whatever as to what will happen to the whole industry within the next few years so trying to determine now whether or not SEN can attract returning LON passenger traffic demand seems rather premature. My opinion in general is that SEN will find it very difficult to attract new airlines simply because nearly all the other LON airports will now have some capacity to fill for the next three or four years at least. SEN will be desperate to retain RYR and maybe look to them to fill the EZY gap has left if and when (let's hope) demand picks up.

[southside bobby]

Surely "speculation" starting with the owner`s & through to local posters here has been a mainstay of the SEN thread previously.

[Expressflight]

LTNman
While I'm here I do find some of the recent posts rather pointless with all their speculation of what might or might not happen to SEN in the future, although no disrespect to those posters who want to discuss those things now if they want to.

southside bobby

I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, although I thought I had, that I have no problem if others want to speculate on such things at this time but I don't and certainly have no wish to stifle anyone's posts.

[LTNman]

I have to say I always read wise words from the keyboard of Expressflight . Says it how it is without the BS speculation. I am interested in his comments about business jets at Southend. Luton has gone back to 24/7 for business jets. In fact were restrictions ever reimposed this summer so has that had an impact on Southend? How many business jets does Southend now handle on an average 24 hour period?

[southside bobby]

SEN require Amazon/ASL to be operating in accordance with the original agreement it could be speculated otherwise the default/reset "daytime" operation removes the only advantage SEN had & Amazon wanted...ie night time slots.

The daily positioning/juggling of Titan B73`s between STN & SEN is also costing someone a "pretty penny".

[Expressflight]

The daily positioning/juggling of Titan B73`s between STN & SEN is also costing someone a "pretty penny".
If that was actually the case you would be correct in your assertion but the only time Titan aircraft position to/from STN is to swap aircraft in the fleet. For example G-POWP was SEN based until 1st October when G-POWS replaced it at SEN and has been SEN-based since then.

[southside bobby]

Noted previously as virtually a daily occurrence during the Summer...the numbers certainly add up over the course & IT IS costing someone a pretty penny.

Reflections then on the "night time" slot problem & does it remove any original SEN advantage?

[Expressflight]

Noted previously as virtually a daily occurrence during the Summer...the numbers certainly add up over the course & IT IS costing someone a pretty penny.

Reflections then on the "night time" slot problem & does it remove any original SEN advantage?
You could be right in that unrestricted use of the night slots by ASL was what was anticipated at the start of the contract and the retiming of the programme may or may not have upset Amazon, I really don't know.

Regarding Titan I'm certainly not aware of this shuttling to and fro between SEN and STN during the Summer, but if it did happen it would normally be at Titan's cost as the subcontractor to ASL, if it was Titan's choice to do so. Maybe though it was due to unserviceability of the ASL 737s which I know was a problem in the Summer and perhaps they needed some additional ad hoc capacity. In which case whether it's SEN or another of their bases involved it has no relevance to ASL's cost basis for using that airport.

[SWBKCB]

FR24 data doesn't support a daily occurrence. Usually several weeks between swaps.

[AirportPlanner1]

FR24 data doesn't support a daily occurrence. Usually several weeks between swaps.

Somewhere between the two. It’s certainly not weeks as they come over my house reasonably frequently but nowhere near daily.

[Expressflight]

Somewhere between the two. It’s certainly not weeks as they come over my house reasonably frequently but nowhere near daily.
Are you sure you're not seeing Titan 737s operating the cargo flights from SEN under the ASL contract? I just puzzled how you would seem them positioning between STN and SEN when you live in East London.