Qantas Recruitment

[morno]

How on earth is that relevant?

Or is it only required for CPL holders?

[romeocharlie]

How on earth is that relevant?

Or is it only required for CPL holders?


Nope, everyone Morno. Fastidious about it too.

I recall QF/ and link requiring it back in '08. As for the consideration placed, I've heard of people recently being asked why they failed *insert exam here* twice etc. during the interview.

[AerocatS2A]

Presumably they don't want "strugglers". Fail an exam or two, no worries, but have a history of multiple failures and bare minimum passes then you might be seen as a training risk.

[blow.n.gasket]

Presumably they don't want "strugglers". Fail an exam or two, no worries, but have a history of multiple failures and bare minimum passes then you might be seen as a training risk.

Or fast track you into Management !

[AerocatS2A]

Or fast track you into Management !

Anything as long as you aren't flying the line!

[Max-Diff]

Nope, everyone Morno. Fastidious about it too.

I recall QF/ and link requiring it back in '08. As for the consideration placed, I've heard of people recently being asked why they failed *insert exam here* twice etc. during the interview.

This is not the case anymore. For the 2016 QF intake, if you held an ATPL you did not require the results advice. At any rate what they require will be listed on the "minimum requirements" list they send prior to the interview date. I wouldn't stress about it.

[Jee_Ray]

G’day All,

Just got an invite for an SO interview.
Has anyone been through the process recently and can throw some light on what the day involves?
What to bone up on, what not to, etc.

Appreciate any and all insights.

[romeocharlie]

This is not the case anymore. For the 2016 QF intake, if you held an ATPL you did not require the results advice. At any rate what they require will be listed on the "minimum requirements" list they send prior to the interview date. I wouldn't stress about it.

I was in the 2016, held an ATPL and mine still got checked, as did another internal's recently. Having said that, as you've written - if they want it, it'll be on the list. I would work on the principal of having it and not needing it, but that's just me. Good luck!

[Max-Diff]

G’day All,

Just got an invite for an SO interview.
Has anyone been through the process recently and can throw some light on what the day involves?
What to bone up on, what not to, etc.

Appreciate any and all insights.

just tried to pm you mate but it wont let me send the message as your inbox is full. Delete a few messages and I'll send you some info.

[Iron Compass]

Presumably they don't want "strugglers". Fail an exam or two, no worries, but have a history of multiple failures and bare minimum passes then you might be seen as a training risk.
It all depends on your current position as well.I think if you have failed multiple exams recently and you could be a training headache(not much experience or new in GA) then this might be against you. If you've failed a couple 10 years ago and have good experience (Multi crew) then this will help your cause. Anyway I don't think they are weighing too heavily on this. Do well in the interview and sim and that's where most points are allocated.
Any news as to what stage internal/external interviews are at?

[SandyPalms]

Is there any truth to the rumour that recruitment has been taken over by flight ops?

[startno1]

I know some external interviews have been allocated for August.

[Jee_Ray]

just tried to pm you mate but it wont let me send the message as your inbox is full. Delete a few messages and I'll send you some info.

Got your email thanks mate!

[Tecgeo]

My son was invited to join the Qantas future pilot program. After successfully completing the 12 week transition program at Adelaide he was told he needed to go and get 12 months experience. My son has now racked up $40,000 dollars worth of debt to fund this invitation from Qantas and lost working income during that period.. All th way along he was led to believe that upon completion he would be sent to Sydney for paid training.

Another example of of big business in Australia acting unethically. How can a corporate entity like Qantas get away with such miserable behaviour?

[Flyboy1987]

Another example of of big business in Australia acting unethically. How can a corporate entity like Qantas get away with such miserable behaviour?

Because people will pay?

[V-Jet]

How can a corporate entity like Qantas get away with such miserable behaviour?

Whilst that is certainly an example of poor behaviour, in the litany of truly disgusting behaviour from Coward St, over particularly the last 10-15 years, that would not rate a mention.

If that upsets you enough (and I see no reason why it shouldn't) I would suggest to your son that he considers a far more lucrative career than being paid a relative (and ever reducing) pittance to be insulted by professional liars and thieves and get enough cash together to fly in his spare time. For fun.

[Keg]

My son was invited to join the Qantas future pilot program. After successfully completing the 12 week transition program at Adelaide he was told he needed to go and get 12 months experience. My son has now racked up $40,000 dollars worth of debt to fund this invitation from Qantas and lost working income during that period.. All th way along he was led to believe that upon completion he would be sent to Sydney for paid training.

Another example of of big business in Australia acting unethically. How can a corporate entity like Qantas get away with such miserable behaviour?


I’m no apologist for Qantas but here are a couple of thoughts.

I strongly suspect your son son wasn’t invited. It’s a presumption on my part but I reckon he applied and was accepted.

How did he perform whilst there? Given the desperation of QLink to get new starters the fact he was told to go and get some experience would indicate to me that he’s either rubbed someone up the wrong way or he’s shot himself in the foot.

He knew the debt issue going in. He was always free to say ‘no’ to the ‘invitation’ but given it wasn’t really an invitation at all then he (and you) should have been eyes wide open as to how this might play out.

Now, I don’t know your son from a brick and maybe QLink have acted unconscionably in this matter but there is a part of the story that we are missing here. Care to fill in some blanks?

It’s important for everyone to understand that the QFPP is not for mainline but for QLink. They’re just using the Qantas name as a branding exercise to make it seem as though an A380 or 747 flight deck is just a couple of years away. Given that is the starting point is it any surprise when other stuff isn’t quite as it seems?

[TimmyTee]

May I suggest that QantasLink isn’t desperate to “get new starters”. What they are desperate for is already type-rated pilots to minimize costs and expenditure (and some would suggest also to lock in or “sponsor” foreign pilots hoping to gain Australian citizenship).

[V-Jet]

May I suggest that QantasLink isn’t desperate to “get new starters”. What they are desperate for is already type-rated pilots to minimize costs and expenditure (and some would suggest also to lock in or “sponsor” foreign pilots hoping to gain Australian citizenship).

Here's another way of looking at it.

Qantas isn't so much 'buying' pilots, but in reality it is 'selling' Australian residency.

A bit like online piracy sites being shut down by the same government. The sites themselves were getting paid advertising from sponsors and argued they were only 'selling' a website. Movie studios argued they were in effect selling (at least facilitating) stolen goods. Selling product they hadn't created, nor paid for in essence.

Qantas will get cheaper pilots, because part of the pay deal is residency. What Qf will get away with 'paying' is more a question of what value an individual places on gaining Australian residency.

[Icarus2001]

Qantas will get cheaper pilots,because part of the pay deal is residency. What Qf will get away with 'paying'is more a question of what value

Are pilots recruited from overseas not covered by the Qantas EBA?

If not then what is the union doing to address this?

If they are hired under the same EBA as local pilots then they will not be cheap, especially given the administrative burden for offshore visa entrants.

[bottomoftheladder]

Hi All

Sorry to ask this yet again but I'm new and can't seem to find out much as to what QF will put you through on the stage 2 testing in SYD. Apart from the group planning stuff etc and HR interview do they put you through a rehash of the talent Q questions?
For someone quite experienced and older are they really looking to fill the big gaps in their regional arm and its all smoke and mirrors to get you to apply or would you be considered like anyone for mainline?
Any info would be much appreciated.

thanks

[Glorified Dus Briver]

I would suggest to your son that he considers a far more lucrative career than being paid a relative (and ever reducing) pittance to be insulted by professional liars and thieves and get enough cash together to fly in his spare time. For fun.

How's he expected to impress his mates and his Instagram followers without shots of the cockpit along with the #dowhatyoulove #bestofficeintheworld #pilotlife tags?

[Derfred]

Does that 12-week course actually cost $40K? I didn’t know that.

Nevertheless, 12 months in the bush never hurt any pilot, in fact they would probably look back on it as the best 12 months of their life.

My God, in my day if someone had said go fly bush for 12 months and there’ll probably be a turbo-prop gig waiting for you at the end I would have pinched myself to see if I was dreaming...

Anyway if that was my son I would be fully encouraging him to do just that. If it does turn out to be only 12 months, he’ll mature 5 years in those 12 months and be a far better pilot for it. If he hasn’t the stomach for that then he’s probably in the wrong industry.

Some of the “Command Decisions” I had to make in the bush were much harder than anything I’ve had to deal with in over 3 decades of jet flying since.

There is a lot of negativity on this website... I still think my job is the best job in the world (and I’m nearing retirement), and I just did a 12 hour 4-sector day in a narrowbody jet. I loved my time in the bush, but it also makes me appreciate the job I have now.

So I would suggest that your son needs to either Harden The F Up and work on becoming what employers want, or get out while he’s still young.

Or is it possible that he’s not complaining, and you are just complaining on his behalf?

[rmcdonal]

Are pilots recruited from overseas not covered by the Qantas EBA?

If not then what is the union doing to address this?

If they are hired under the same EBA as local pilots then they will not be cheap, especially given the administrative burden for offshore visa entrants.
Paid the same, but as QLINK can't retain or recruit using their current terms and conditions (for what they need) they are instead giving away citizenship as a bonus rather than increasing or improving their package. The overseas pilots will be indebted for the 4 years so they can obtain PR, worth the short term cash cost to QL.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

sta5fhl,

yes, any captain that has been checked to line for over 2 years can facilitate ICUS

[Icarus2001]

they are instead giving away citizenship as a bonus rather than increasing or improving their package Qantas link are not in a position to give anyone citizenship, that would be the Australian Government. Now I have not checked the fine print but usually at the end of the visa period the person has to leave, not always as they can apply for PR. Again that is not citizenship.

The other point is how many do they really think they can get? The US is desperate for pilots and pay is increasing quickly. Maybe a few Europeans who want to try living in a warmer country and no doubt a handful of South Africans happy to GTFO. I believe that Australian airlines are kidding themselves if they think that there is a huge pool of pilots overseas who are just waiting for the chance to move to a now quite expensive Australia. We shall see.

How do their cadets get their ATPL unlocked We do not have "locked" or "frozen" ATPL in Australia.

[Brakerider]

Qantas link are not in a position to give anyone citizenship, that would be the Australian Government. Now I have not checked the fine print but usually at the end of the visa period the person has to leave, not always as they can apply for PR. Again that is not citizenship.

The other point is how many do they really think they can get? The US is desperate for pilots and pay is increasing quickly. Maybe a few Europeans who want to try living in a warmer country and no doubt a handful of South Africans happy to GTFO. I believe that Australian airlines are kidding themselves if they think that there is a huge pool of pilots overseas who are just waiting for the chance to move to a now quite expensive Australia. We shall see.

We do not have "locked" or "frozen" ATPL in Australia.


That is the whole purpose of a 4 year 457 Visa. 4 years on the 457 plus a 1 year “Bridging Visa” gives you 5 years in country. You are now eligible for Permanent Residency.

You may underestimate the value many many foreigners place on Australian PR. Whilst most were not interested in a 2 year stint before returning home, there is no shortage queuing up for PR.

[Icarus2001]

Permanent residency, which is not citizenship, which was his point and mine.

[Brakerider]

Permanent residency, which is not citizenship, which was his point and mine.

12 Months as PR ---> Citizenship...

[*Lancer*]

Icarus2001,

4 year Temporary Skill Shortage (482) VISA plus 1 year Bridging VISA = eligible for PR
Then after 1 year PR = eligible for citizenship

We do not have "locked" or "frozen" ATPL in Australia.

Likewise, we do not have a “457 VISA” in Australia anymore :D

Sta5fhl, yes Jetstar have an ICUS program to enable cadets to reach their ATPL command time requirements.

[Al Barsha South]

Whats the latest on the hold file. Many guys now been on it over 12 months.

[POR777]

Had the interview recently. 12 - 18 months on hold it'll be

[Keg]

Not taking as many S/Os as we’d like. Lack of training capacity. Recent courses have been 6 per month when we’d prefer to be doing at least 12 and probably more. It’ll be the new year before we have the capacity to accelerate again.

[Burleigh Effect]

Had the interview recently. 12 - 18 months on hold it'll be

Is that for Mainline or QLink?

[jetlikespeeds]

Whats the latest on the hold file. Many guys now been on it over 12 months.

Dont be selfish, they are making room for foreign pilots here.

[POR777]

Is that for Mainline or QLink?
That's for mainline

[mrdeux]

Not taking as many S/Os as we’d like. Lack of training capacity. Recent courses have been 6 per month when we’d prefer to be doing at least 12 and probably more. It’ll be the new year before we have the capacity to accelerate again.

6 per month would be roughly equal to normal attrition.....

[Going Nowhere]

The 6 per month will probably all be internals at that rate.

[Iron Compass]

Does anybody know of internal candidates that have attended interviews in Sydney and received a NO from this stage?

[Going Nowhere]

I’ve heard of one that has.

[Keg]

The 6 per month will probably all be internals at that rate.

That would depend on how many on the hold file from 2016 applications are internals.

[chickoroll]

I’ve heard a few JQ 78 and 320 FOs been told no after having an interview, Few ML skippers however have been told yes.

[TimmyTee]

So have all internal groups applicants got a Yes/No now that JQ and Freighter girls and boys have?

[FightDeck]

Spoke to the some of the recruiters a few days ago. Qantas looking at 250+ Pilots per year needed for the next ten years given retirements and growth in the industry.
Happy days for pilots already in QF with rises up the ranks not seen in decades and great for new joiners too.

[gretzky99]

So 2500 in ten years, is that more that the current total?

[Toga Toga Toga]

Spoke to the some of the recruiters a few days ago. Qantas looking at 250+ Pilots per year needed for the next ten years given retirements and growth in the industry.
Happy days for pilots already in QF with rises up the ranks not seen in decades and great for new joiners too.


Sounds like BS to me. There are roughly 2500 pilots in mainline at the moment, so either everyone of them is currently 55 or older - or QF expects to double in size for those numbers to make sense within a 10 year time frame. Across the Qantas Group maybe?

Its is good to see movement for the blokes in QF, well overdue.

[Keg]

About 40 LH pilots a year due to retire between now and 2025. It ramps up to 70-80 LH pilots per annum from 2025 to 2030. I’ve no visibility of the 737 pilots.

[Toga Toga Toga]

About 40 LH pilots a year due to retire between now and 2025. It ramps up to 70-80 LH pilots per annum from 2025 to 2030. I’ve no visibility of the 737 pilots.

Interesting time, thanks for the insight Keg. Out of interest, out of the 2500 pilots on the list, roughly what seniority number does the most junior east coast Wide Body FO and Narrow Body captain hold?

[Keg]

Most junior ADL 737 command is a start date of early ‘02. Seniority circa 1390.
Most junior MEL 737 command is start date of mid ‘01. Seniority 1320ish.
Most junior east coast A330 F/O is circa 1590. Start date mid 2004.
Most junior east coast 787 F/O is 1400ish. Start date mid ‘02.

Hope that assists.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Toga, as pilots age, the rate of medical terminations increases significantly. Each Captain who retires or leaves medically generates a significant number of training courses behind them. One A380/B747 Captain retirement could generate 5+ training course behind them. The consequence of this that as both the rate of growth and retirements increase, there is a disproportinate backlog of training. You could potentially have 5~10% of pilots in training at any one time.

The peculiarities of this seniority system, and the implications & consequences appear to have escaped senior management, and the delay in training & recruitment back in 2015 has put them significantly on the back of the drag curve. The training system then became clogged and further exacerbated the issue and increased significantly time off line in the training system (6 to 9 months to do a type course), a training death spiral

[Toga Toga Toga]

Its does indeed Keg, thanks for taking the time to share the info.

So a new joiner today could very roughly be expecting (and yes, this is based on some pretty big assumptions) a WB FO position in 10 years, and command in 13 years given expected retirements projected out at a constantly high rate beyond 2025. Good to get some decent numbers, as I have heard some wildly varying guessing bandied around.

Quite the mess HR has created curtain twitcher, getting back ahead of an increasingly big curve is going to be a big challenge. Meantime the drivers tend to get flogged while HR tries to fix their own mistake!

[knobbycobby]

Toga, as pilots age, the rate of medical terminations increases significantly. Each Captain who retires or leaves medically generates a significant number of training courses behind them. One A380/B747 Captain retirement could generate 5+ training course behind them. The consequence of this that as both the rate of growth and retirements increase, there is a disproportinate backlog of training. You could potentially have 5~10% of pilots in training at any one time.

The peculiarities of this seniority system, and the implications & consequences appear to have escaped senior management, and the delay in training & recruitment back in 2015 has put them significantly on the back of the drag curve. The training system then became clogged and further exacerbated the issue and increased significantly time off line in the training system (6 to 9 months to do a type course), a training death spiral

Good Points Curtaintwitcher.
The Retirement numbers listed by Keg are at best conservative.Higher numbers are actually retiring due medicals or pilots leaving before they MUST retire. With the pilot shortage pilots are flying maximum divisors and that’s putting pressure on all pilots too. Many have left prior to retirement age.
As Keg mentioned the numbers get pretty large anyway.
They also assume little to no growth. Regardless as Cpt Curtain mentioned each retirement requires multiple training slots to cover the multiple movements.
The pilot academy will take many years to provide the hundreds of pilots that Alan Joyce has said Qantas will need annually.

[Keg]

You can’t fly long haul (787, 744, A380, A330) beyond the age of 65 due to overseas licensing requirements. US, Indonesia and a few others don’t allow a pilot of an airliner to be 65.

Most people hitting that age give it away. Some don’t want to or have to keep going so they bid to the 737. It’s a very small minority of maybe 3-5 per annum.

[HappyBandit]

I know a great number of people are still awaiting to hear back from the latest round and certainly not taking anything away from this however is anyone aware of when it is likely QF will offer future recruitment rounds? Both internally and externally?

[Keg]

I’ve not heard anything official because to be frank, this recruiting round will likely see us with enough people on hold to last until at least the end of next year. So I’d be stunned if they opened up again before mid next year. More likely I suspect it’ll be closer to Sep/ Oct 2019 (at the earliest) for starts post March/ April 2020.

[Flyboy1987]

I’ve not heard anything official because to be frank, this recruiting round will likely see us with enough people on hold to last until at least the end of next year. So I’d be stunned if they opened up again before mid next year. More likely I suspect it’ll be closer to Sep/ Oct 2019 (at the earliest) for starts post March/ April 2020.

Keg, any reason why the application portal isn’t just left open?

So that applicants who meet mins/people who wish to change employers/ former applicants with a defer period now over can reapply?

Why does qf recruitment have to be such a big secret?

Yes it may create a larger work load for HR....therefore justifying their position within an airline.

[AerocatS2A]

3rd hand from someone who recently interviewed, they intend to exhaust the current hold pool before recruiting again.

[JPJP]

3rd hand from someone who recently interviewed, they intend to exhaust the current hold pool before recruiting again.


Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.

:E

[Brakerider]

Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.

:E



I could be wrong but QF Group is very much onboard the Cadet/Trainee bandwagon. I'm sure their intentions are to purely recruit through subsidiary companies with a combination of DE/Cadet/Trainee which will ensure a flow from Subsidiaries to Mainline.

[AerocatS2A]

Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.

:E


I don't think you can read that much into a third hand account of what someone said during an interview. I doubt they went into specific detail of their fuel reserve policy (to use your analogy).

[CurtainTwitcher]

I could be wrong but QF Group is very much onboard the Cadet/Trainee bandwagon. I'm sure their intentions are to purely recruit through subsidiary companies with a combination of DE/Cadet/Trainee which will ensure a flow from Subsidiaries to Mainline.

However, by doing this they burden themselves with a massive training program as they snake everyone through the now extensive subsidiary ecosystem. This complex of systems is now a dis-economy of scale where pilot skills can no longer be viewed as a disposable commodity, and actually consider incentivizing it with as a genuine career path.

The ultimate solution will probably need to rationalisation and significant reduction in Domestic group complexity to a couple of core common fleets and long term similar pay & career structures as a retention strategy to enable them to keep the aircraft flying. The game of playing one group off against another is now looming as a very large training liability. Until this is understood and internalised as a truth at the most senior levels of the company & Board expect expect a continuous rolling crisis with pilot numbers Domestically across all operations.
Airlines seeing record numbers of passengers but fewer flights.

Airlines seeing record numbers of passengers but fewer flights (https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Airlines-seeing-record-numbers-of-passengers-but-fewer-flights)


Airlines seeing record numbers of passengers but fewer flights

In 2017, the number of passengers who flew domestic U.S. flights broke all previous records for the third straight year, and 2018 appears poised to smash the record yet again.

But even as airlines filled planes with 741 million domestic passengers in 2017, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), they offered 18.5% fewer flights than at the peak in 2005, a result of the carriers' shift toward larger aircraft in order to reduce costs and toward denser seat configurations to increase revenue.

Between 2007 and 2017, while the number of domestic U.S. air travelers increased by 9.2%, the average number of passengers per flight jumped from 69 to 91, BTS statistics show.

Upgauging -- industry parlance for using larger aircraft -- has been an economic winner for mainline airlines, and it has helped some regional carriers survive a pilot shortage that forced them to drastically increase pilot pay.

Seth Kaplan, managing partner for the newsletter Airline Weekly, said, "The economics on the cost side always favor a larger aircraft." Overall, he noted that there is less pilot cost per passenger. Also, "Upgauging also saves on engine maintenance and airport fees. There are just powerful incentives to try and get more seats per flights."

Larger aircraft also offer benefits to travelers. For example, few flyers would miss having to duck their heads as they walked the aisles of small regional aircraft.

But trading more flights on smaller planes for fewer flights on larger ones can also come at a cost to travelers, most notably in the form of decreased connectivity in smaller markets and a general reduction in route frequencies.

Faye Malarkey Black, president of the Regional Airline Association (RAA), said, "An airport can gain seats in a way that actually reduces meaningful connectivity. In smaller markets, in particular, it's critical to right-size the aircraft to the passenger base. Frequency and departure options are maintained through use of right-size aircraft."

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/780x440/t0820airlinegrowth_00d6dd2ef45d67feddcddda5627285524e82d8c6. jpg



Upgauging and seat densification have been a common theme across the industry. JetBlue, for example, used to fly only 100-seat Embraer E-190s and 150-seat Airbus A320s. But the carrier took its first delivery of the larger Airbus A321 in 2013, according to the website Planespotters.net, and now has 58 A321s in its fleet, with configurations ranging from 159 to 200 seats.

In the meantime, JetBlue is also in the process of adding two rows to its A320s, boosting the seat count from 150 to 162. And in the years ahead, the carrier plans to replace its E-190s with Airbus A220-300s, which are built to carry between 130 and 160 passengers.

Similarly, at the end of 2007, the Southwest fleet primarily consisted of 137-seat Boeing 737 variants, along with 25 122-seat Boeing 737-500. By the end of last year, Southwest had phased out the 737-500s, added 175-seat 737-800s to its mix, and densified those 137-seat 737-700s to 143 seats.

The Big 3 legacy U.S. carriers Delta, United and American have also upgauged their mainline fleets. But perhaps the most dramatic changes have come in the regional fleets owned both by the Big 3 and by the regional airlines themselves.

According to the RAA, the total number of 36- to 50-seat aircraft in U.S. regional airline fleets declined by half between 2008 and 2017, dropping the portion of the regional fleet those planes comprise from 75% to just more than 40%. Meanwhile, during that same time frame, regional carriers more than doubled their inventory of two-class jets, which seat between 65 and 90 passengers.

According to the trade organization Airlines for America, in 2005, 45% of U.S. domestic flights were operated on aircraft with 50 seats or less. This year that figure is down to 22%.

Symbolic of the upgauging of regional jets was the retirement by American Airlines' regional subsidiary Piedmont in July of its last Bombardier Dash 8 turboprop plane. With that retirement, turboprops are no longer in the fleet of any of the Big 3, according to Brett Snyder, who writes the Cranky Flier blog.

The gradual draw-down of smaller regional aircraft is benefitting consumers, said Mark Drusch, a former Delta senior vice president who is now a vice president in the aviation wing of the consultancy ICF.

Jets in the 70-to-90-seat range, he said, have wider seats and larger lavatories than smaller regional aircraft. They also have full overhead bins and high enough interiors for passengers to stand straight.

"From a comfort perspective, you just have more space," Drusch said.

Larger regional jets also enable airlines to offer a broader product range, including first-class cabins and more basic economy seats, he added.

For regional carriers, which were forced by the nationwide pilot shortage to institute a spate of substantial pay raises and sign-on bonuses beginning in 2015, upgauging has served as something of a lifeline by reducing the aggregate number of pilots needed, said Airline Weekly's Kap-lan.

But as the total number of flights has dropped across the U.S. domestic system, reductions in connectivity have followed.

According to an Airline Weekly analysis of data from the analytics company Diio Mi, the number of domestic city pairs serviced daily by U.S. carriers dropped 11.4% between 2007 and 2017.

Typically, said the RAA's Black, it's the small markets that feel the most impact when airlines reduce departures.

A total of 256 U.S. commercial airports saw a reduction in departures of 10% or more between 2013 and 2017, the RAA said, and 20 airports lost service altogether.

"Increases in seats are practically meaningless if destination options and departures are not also increasing, or at least holding," Black wrote in an email. "Otherwise, a flight with more seats but taking off less often or to fewer destinations is less convenient and less likely to meet individualized traveler needs."

Even with upgauging and the pilot shortage, the news for small U.S. airports has improved somewhat in recent years. Since 2013, the pace of the reductions in total domestic flights has slowed measurably, having dropped less than 2% during that period. Meanwhile, driven by the potential to reap larger profits on routes with less competition, the Big 3 carriers, especially United, have begun placing more focus on regional flying.

Upgauging isn't the only cause of the reduction in domestic flight counts over the past 13 years. Drusch noted that industry consolidation, which brought the number of primary U.S. carriers down from 11 in 2006 to four today, led to the closure of midsize hubs in markets such as Cleveland, Memphis, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.

Kaplan said consolidation has also enabled carriers to reduce frequencies on some routes.

"When you don't have as many competitors, it's easy for an airline to get away with having fewer frequencies," he said.

Correction: Seth Kaplan, managing partner for the newsletter Airline Weekly, said the economics of larger aircraft led to less pilot cost per passenger. He was misquoted in an earlier version of this article as saying it led to less cost per pilot.

[Keg]

Keg, any reason why the application portal isn’t just left open?

So that applicants who meet mins/people who wish to change employers/ former applicants with a defer period now over can reapply?

Why does qf recruitment have to be such a big secret?.

All good questions. Sadly I can’t provide any firm answers. I suspect that having not recruited for so long they’re now caught in this cycle of opening and closing recruitment. I know of a few quality applicants who didn’t have the requirements in September 2016 but did early2017 and we’ve lost them to other carriers.

Personally I’d do it differently by leaving it open and then every two months or so re-ordering the priority of who I want to look at based upon new or updated applicants but being up front with each individual that we aren’t going to be looking at you for (perhaps) 6 months. But I don’t run pilot recruitment.

[Keg]

Mmmm. Sound planning. I use the same technique with fuel - Unless I’ve got none, I don’t add any. After all; you can put fuel in a jet, or access pilots any time you want. Much like ‘just in time’ recruiting, this type of planning ends in a massive cluster-fuk. At the very least.

:E



Taking it WAY too literally! Of course they’ll open up recruitment again before they’ve completely exhausted the hold file. However. Suspect next time they’ll open it up when their are less on hold than they did this time. Of course they also got snookered because the intake courses basically halved in size due to training capacity. So it seems they could have held off a few extra months before starting again in 2018 but didn’t know that at the time.

[FogBuster]

I could be wrong but QF Group is very much onboard the Cadet/Trainee bandwagon. I'm sure their intentions are to purely recruit through subsidiary companies with a combination of DE/Cadet/Trainee which will ensure a flow from Subsidiaries to Mainline.

Yeah we’ll see how that goes. They treated their last batch of cadets soooo well.:rolleyes:

[JPJP]

Taking it WAY too literally! Of course they’ll open up recruitment again before they’ve completely exhausted the hold file. However. Suspect next time they’ll open it up when their are less on hold than they did this time. Of course they also got snookered because the intake courses basically halved in size due to training capacity. So it seems they could have held off a few extra months before starting again in 2018 but didn’t know that at the time.




I was being a smartarse ...... mostly. Your post below reflects a competent and forward looking recruiting process. I don’t think Qantas will ever have difficulty recruiting pilots.

I see the challenge being the constant feeding of the entry level positions within the group (Dash 8 etc.). Regarding Alans cadet schemes - The fruit of his loins will take years to flower, and produce mini-Alans in pilot uniforms. He’ll be gone when the real shortage appears in Oz. His successor will find themselves saddled with a pilot problem, along with a massive requirement for CapEx on new aircraft.

Cheers

Personally I’d do it differently by leaving it open and then every two months or so re-ordering the priority of who I want to look at based upon new or updated applicants but being up front with each individual that we aren’t going to be looking at you for (perhaps) 6 months. But I don’t run pilot recruitment.

[chickoroll]

almost think they have plenty after interviewing 260 plus internals. They could just rely on QLink JQ EFA to keep recruiting for their own operation.

[Keg]

Yes but that’d be a spectacularly dumb move! It’s good to get people with perspectives and experiences external to ‘the group’.

I’m all for giving opportunities to those within the group but let me throw a scenario out there.

Someone does a cadetship at age 18. A couple of years later they’re a Dash 8 F/O. At age 25 they’re a Dash 8 Captain and a year or two later they’re now part of the hiring process for the regional. So without any knowledge of long haul (or short haul) jet operations, what it involves or even any significant industry experience (7 years in a regional is hardly ‘significant industry experience’), they’re now hiring people into a regional. People here seem to be suggesting that this is the only pool of candidates mainline should be looking at? No freaking way.

I’d like to be taking people from other airlines, people from the RAAF, people who have been C&T on Dash’s and other small turboprops for smaller operators. The wider the level of experience (with experiences across technical, management, etc) that comes into mainline the less chance of it being insular and inward looking and ultimately that builds strength.

So sure give opportunities for progression into mainline from within the group but let’s not consider it a fait accompli. Just because you wear the same uniform or work within the same ‘group’ doesn’t mean that you’ve necessarily demonstrated that you can take the next step. That sort of entitled attitude has already brought a few S/Os undone.

In fact, were they not so desperate to retain crew in QLink and the other group entities they wouldn’t even be setting aside as many positions as they have so let’s not kid ourselves that the Qantas group is offering these positions out of their desire to offer pilots ‘progression’ within the group. It’s a means to an end. Don’t confuse that with you having demonstrated the required standard to progress or you ‘deserving’ to be in mainline. You deserve nothing more than the opportunity to show your stuff and if you’re good enough and better than the next candidate (internal or external), you’re in.

[Chocks Away]

Yeh good points Keg especially the last paragraph... it's all about keeping the money-earners (aircraft) moving so they can keep earning the $$$.
Pilots? They're a liability as Jimmy-bow-tie once slipped out by mistake at an AGM many years back.

The key phrase is though, something you said earlier: and we’ve lost them to other carriers.
Yes, QF may be gloating that they have many applicants but those applicants now have many options, depending on their lifestyle choice or needs. It's a global market and QF isn't "top of the pops" anymore. This availability of choice for the pilots hasn't happened in decades and it's obvious many HR departments & Airline managements are struggling with the shift in power (so is AIPA and AFAP!!!). The QF Group will continue to lose applicants to other airlines, until they match what's on offer with the airlines they've 'lost them to" and also clean up the "divide & conquer" EBA mess that is Sunnies v Eastern; Jetstar v Mainline; Network v Cobham etc etc etc (Engineering is the same, sadly).
I don't know where people have their heads but they're certainly not seeing what I'm seeing or reading the journals I am because there's a DESPERATE shortage of pilots everywhere now.
Name a continent and I'll give you half a dozen airlines immediately screaming for crew. Legacy carriers are now in the mix too. It's not rocket science... pay more $$$! Share you Managerial Bonuses around, to those at the coal-face instead of what amounts to blackmail bonuses.
Perth is a classic example that shows the shortage well. When I fly in I see so many Skippers/Cobham/Network/VARA aircraft on the ground... and it's peak morning or afternoon time when they are meant to be flying. Heck QF even have their B747 running a domestic run each day (great for punters and yes I'm aware of the "training bottle-neck").

OPINION: Pilot shortage has no easy solution (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-pilot-shortage-has-no-easy-solution-451543/)
Shame on them for wishing another downturn! What bastards to even think it and the realities of what happens to millions of families!

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Does anyone here have an idea of how many SO's Jetstar still need to recruit for the 787. I've noticed an entire cohort of cadets have just started training on the 787, with another round of cadets finishing late this year and then mid next year. Whats the likelihood of all SO positions being filled by these cadets, would future JQ cadets expect the A320?

The initial 787 SO cadets that were hired are coming close to their 3 years of service and thus will be able to bid to A320 FO. So these 20-30 positions will need to be filled by new SO cadet hires. In years gone by there have been split intakes of cadet A320 F/O and B787 SO. I believe that this will continue to be the case, unless the new FRMS (which has been due ‘in a couple of months’ for the past 4 years) dictates that many of the south East Asian routes we fly will require 3 crew, in which case the SO numbers will need to increase dramatically. Jetstar being Jetstar, I’m sure they will find a way to keep the routes 2 crew.

Either way way you will get a seniority number, which is all that really matters. Take the first thing Jetstar offers you. Sitting in the back of a 787 to Honolulu 2-3 times a month isn’t the worst job in the world.

One last point, I’m not sure if you are a Jetstar cadet or looking at getting a job externally but whatever you do, if you want to be in Australia DONT AGREE TO GO TO NEW ZEALAND, as there is no pathway to get back to Australia and even if you did you would have to go to the bottom of the seniority list. Many people have been caught out by this.

[ExtraShot]

. Shame on them for wishing another downturn! What bastards to even think it and the realities of what happens to millions of families

This Pilot shortage was well on its way back in 07/08, then the GFC hit and it saved their bacon big time.

A downturn/correction Will happen again, who knows when though, and to what extent. I’d wager good money that it is being countined on to eventually help iron out the Pilot Shortage a little bit.

[CurtainTwitcher]

This Pilot shortage was well on its way back in 07/08, then the GFC hit and it saved their bacon big time.



The GFC was a definite factor, however, the ICAO moved to extend the mandated retirement age from 60 to 65 in Dec 2006, and the US implemented it in 2009. That is really what saved their bacon.

The industry response? Extend and pretend, capturing the value of the age extension through reduced training costs. Almost ZERO in the way of investment to overcome the demographic challenges that would inevitability occur. Demographics is about the closest thing there to a sure bet, there is no uncertainty about when someone will have a birthday at a particular age. You can model the best case outcome for a cohort to reach mandated retirement age with a good degree of accuracy.

Once again, extension to 67 is proposed, however, there is likely to be an exponential decline in pilots who can hold a medical post 65 and make it all the way to 67. There are going to be tiny incremental gains in pilot number should that come to pass. That is before the "will to continue" is taken into account.

Unfortunately for the managers, the demographic dividend is now about to become an enormous liability for which they are completely unprepared.

[logansi]

There is another factor which is going to come into play into a pilot shortage - an instructor shortage.

I have a mate who wants to do his MECIR as part of a student loans diploma and had his name down at 2 places for intakes this month, both have been delayed until next year due to lack of instructors for new intakes. This is happening while Asian Airlines continue to increase training in Australia demanding more instructors and 'taking them away' from training Australia students. This is without any real significant shortage at the regional's of applicants, now imagine every instructor who has the minimums for qlink applies and gets in. Unless something changes this will severly limit the number of people training.

[pilotchute]

Maybe charging 25k for an instructor rating needs to be addressed? Then paying another 6k for instrument instructor privaliges then 8k for multi training approval might be deterring people?

Oh and schools only paying you per flying hour and expecting you to man reception for free?

This is why nobody wants to instruct.

[Rated De]

Unfortunately for the managers, the demographic dividend is now about to become an enormous liability for which they are completely unprepared.

With relationship models derived from a perception of unlimited supply, airline management were able to push otherwise internal costs (like training, car parking and indeed uniforms) at employees. Study of the Ryan air model of employee relationship details how much of that otherwise corporate overhead was pushed outside the cost centre.
The Ryan air template has been borrowed by new start and established airlines alike. It was argued by former CFO Qantas Gregg, that JQ was designed to drive competitive tensions ‘across the group’ and as it was modelled on the Ryan air template, as many costs including pilot training pushed at a potential employee unit cost fell. This trend has been part of the industry dynamic for over three decades but hidden in plain sight is the message that a significant departure in the employee employer relationship had surfaced. Airlines were to have very little sunk cost in pilots: pilots funded not only their CPL training but increasingly endorsements and bonding was the norm. Airlines invested in privatised training, thereby deriving a 'profit' from self funded applicants where previously, there was a sunk cost: endorsement of their company pilots.

In demographics is destiny. A sure bet but long tails. As CT correctly alludes to, it is very predictable yet takes a long time to feed through the economy.

As real wages fall and nominal outcomes (from contract negotiations) were limited in upside, slowly but surely the ‘signal’ sent to 'aspirational' pilots was that so much cost had to be borne with limited upside (financially) that the rational participants declined the ‘opportunity’ to commit huge funds to such a pursuit.For a country with a geographical landmass the size of Australia, this strategy was always eventually bound to struggle. Qantas is without doubt the largest employer and indeed remains an aspirational goal for pilots, however without significant improvement in real terms and conditions, whether it be a pilot academy with a nice little dose of corporate welfare, or skill shortage visas unless there is a real change to the relationship model, which includes remuneration the problem will continue to grow in magnitude.

Make no mistake Qantas are acutely aware of the magnitude of the shortage, they are attempting to induce more supply with another externality; more migration. The industry is a long way from addressing the real reduction in terms and conditions that has precipitated the last three decades.
The externality borne by GA and the community will eventually see a return to mean, whereby gradual improvements will signal more supply of pilots. With airline management focused on the next KPI until operating revenue decline noticeably, airlines will do everything before doing the right thing!

[fearcampaign]

Yeh good points Keg especially the last paragraph... it's all about keeping the money-earners (aircraft) moving so they can keep earning the $$$.
Pilots? They're a liability as Jimmy-bow-tie once slipped out by mistake at an AGM many years back.

The key phrase is though, something you said earlier:
Yes, QF may be gloating that they have many applicants but those applicants now have many options, depending on their lifestyle choice or needs. It's a global market and QF isn't "top of the pops" anymore. This availability of choice for the pilots hasn't happened in decades and it's obvious many HR departments & Airline managements are struggling with the shift in power (so is AIPA and AFAP!!!). The QF Group will continue to lose applicants to other airlines, until they match what's on offer with the airlines they've 'lost them to" and also clean up the "divide & conquer" EBA mess that is Sunnies v Eastern; Jetstar v Mainline; Network v Cobham etc etc etc (Engineering is the same, sadly).
I don't know where people have their heads but they're certainly not seeing what I'm seeing or reading the journals I am because there's a DESPERATE shortage of pilots everywhere now.
Name a continent and I'll give you half a dozen airlines immediately screaming for crew. Legacy carriers are now in the mix too. It's not rocket science... pay more $$$! Share you Managerial Bonuses around, to those at the coal-face instead of what amounts to blackmail bonuses.
Perth is a classic example that shows the shortage well. When I fly in I see so many Skippers/Cobham/Network/VARA aircraft on the ground... and it's peak morning or afternoon time when they are meant to be flying. Heck QF even have their B747 running a domestic run each day (great for punters and yes I'm aware of the "training bottle-neck").

OPINION: Pilot shortage has no easy solution (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-pilot-shortage-has-no-easy-solution-451543/)
Shame on them for wishing another downturn! What bastards to even think it and the realities of what happens to millions of families!

Very Well said Chocks Away.
Global airline pay has increased dramatically and will continue to for experienced crew. It’s only going to get worse for airline executives. The US was a bloodbath post 9/11. Now US major airline pay exceeds that of QF and Cathay.
If you look at Ryanair, O Leary used to openly ridicule his flight crew whilst a steady supply kept knocking on his door.
He looks a fool now as pilot shortages cancel thousands of flights. He has even recognised the role of pilot unions . Joyce modelled Jetstar on Ryanair as Dixon’s servant. He may well pay to heed what has happened in Ryanair which despite the Prior Aggression pays far higher than Jetstar.
Economics is supply and demand. The peak retirement wave breaking globally will be greater than the effect of any potential downturn.
I don’t think the unions know how strong a position they are in. For current entrants they will ride a wave like the fortunate joiners around 1988/89. Either that or they can gain experience in any Qantas group entity and make lucrative global contracts work for them.
Regardless the pilot shortage is very real and getting worse.

[Jeps]

The last 10 posts here at least have been so bang on correct I just shake might head at those in positions of power who still don’t think any of these things are an issue. I’m not so sure they have completely removed their heads from their backsides yet. To an extent they have but not enough.

[neville_nobody]

I’d like to be taking people from other airlines, people from the RAAF, people who have been C&T on Dash’s and other small turboprops for smaller operators. The wider the level of experience (with experiences across technical, management, etc) that comes into mainline the less chance of it being insular and inward looking and ultimately that builds strength.

However for that to happen QF will have to reduce their time to command or allow DE positions. People who have the experience you are talking about are not to keen ( or able to) on waiting 15-20+ years for a short haul command by which time they are probably going to be 50 something.

The reality of the situation is that QF is insular because you have to get in your early to mid 20's to be able to get to a command early enough to be able to move onto the next level.

What you suggest is a great idea however unless QF pilots wish to surrender seniority or there is massive expansion or a alignment of AOCs into mainline, nothing will change.

[Brakerider]

If Qlink drivers aren’t experienced enough (we aren’t all cadets) then I’d love to know what everyone thinks of the 700 hr Grade 3 instructors and Kak Air pilots taking up the backseat of the 787.

[Keg]

Lol. You idiots think it’s just about hours in the log book? Thanks for demonstrating my point perfectly in one respect though.

A few themes running parallel so ill try and cover them off.

1. I’ve long been an advocate that the back seat is a great place to learn about airline operations. Maybe the ideal path for a cadet should be S/O for a few years, then a regional F/O and perhaps even to command before returning to a jet. In that respect Dunda you’re definitely taken a wrong turn in your logic.

2. The right person with little experience is a better long term option than the wrong person with lots of ‘’experience’. Sure, there is a nuance and a balance to this point but there are ways of structuring your operation to cater for the less experienced. (I hope one of you clowns doesn’t think I’m advocating for ‘no experience’. Still, it’s 2018 and very little surprises me this days when it comes to people wilfully mis reading posts).

3. I’m not sure in any of my recent posts the issues that I’ve raised was about the lack of experience that regional drivers have. In fact a re- read of my earlier posts advocates taking a wide range of candidates from across multiple disciplines to assist in building a more robust experience base. Sometimes that means taking on the people I’ve spoken about in point 2. My issue has always been about the atttide, not the experience.

4. Any ‘sole source’ internal recruiting pool is damaging for the long term success of an airline. I like flying with people from other airlines, the RAAF, GA, cadets, internals, because it gives me and others of my vintage a new set of eyes and minds to review our operation. It took some of those eyes post Ansett in 2001 to be able to get some cut through on certain CRM policies and definitions within Qantas.

Let me be blunt- far more than I have been to this point. My sole interest in the recruiting process is whether it gets the ‘right person’ identified in point 2. If you’re in a ‘group airline’ and suggesting that because of this status you should be the only pool of candidates mainline recruits from you’re actually demonstrating why you’re not suitable for mainline- at least not at the moment... maybe when you wise up a bit more and/or adjust the attitude. If you’re suggesting that you’ve got three years experience as a Dash F/O and therefore this will make you a good airline pilot then you’re sorely mistaken. It might if you’re the right person- though the right person would also know that it’s actually less to do with the 1800 Dash F/O hours and more to do with who they’ve become in those 1800 hours. Those hours mean squat though if you’re not the right person. No amount of experience will make up for it.

So take a good hard look in the mirror mirror folks and ask yourselves what makes you the ‘right person’. If you’re telling yourself it’s because you’ve been in the group for a few years so you should have priority then I’ve got some hard news. If you’re telling yourself it’s because of who you are as a pilot and a person and what you bring to the table then I look forward to flying with you.

Actually, I think these words sum it up. In the airline world, you'll be just fine if you have a good attitude and meet the standard. Most of you're learning will occur on the line anyway. But please, d*ckheads need not apply. No one likes flying with a d*ckhead, no matter what your background is.

Recognise them Dunda? Are these not the crux of my point?

[AviatoR21]

What about loyalty? Some guys have said no to the likes of Virgin, CX or EK to maintain within the QF group only to get the no from QF.

Says little to me for those who use group airlines as stepping stones to apply for competitors only to realise the grass is not greener. Then decide to apply for QF and get accepted.

Does the HR panel consider this in their decisions?

[bafanguy]

So take a good hard look in the mirror mirror folks and ask yourselves what makes you the ‘right person’.

Keg,

Good post but I sympathize with the frustration if not confusion with the “process” expressed in this thread. It strikes a similar chord with recruiting here at our equivalent of QANTAS: DL, UA, AA, SW, UPS and FedEx (and even lesser outfits). So, I’ll ask a question or two.

How do the processes at work, from a candidate’s brief and carefully-coached interview performance, purport to foretell with accuracy whether an applicant will be the “right person” over a span of several decades ?

I’ll admit that the recruiting process apparently gets it right most of the time but can’t say with 100% certainty if the process is responsible or whether the majority of all candidates just would’ve turned out as suitable anyway after being immersed in (and further shaped by) the airline and its culture...assuming technical competence as a given.

We’ve all got stories of really good people (whom WE knew far better than any HR process ever could) being turned away or never even getting a shot at an interview…and then flying with people sporting absolutely toxic attitudes who shouldn’t even have been hired to sweep out the hangar; they all came through the same “scientific” process.

How does one account for that ?

Is there follow up post-hiring/training to correlate the effectiveness of the HR process with results the Chosen Ones demonstrate over time ? And then adjustments made to the process to correct the errors demonstrated in the process results ?

The interview process here has reached the level and tenor of a Monty Python skit; even getting the chance to participate involves some mysterious miracle. Professional application review by someone specializing in the particular airline, study and practice for a tech and/or cognitive exam, interview coaching, attending career “fairs” (plural...if you can even get a slot from the limited number available) in hopes of getting literally minutes with a recruiter who might just look at your application, then maybe an online psych assessment like the Hogan, Gallup or some other “organizational fitness” test, then a video interview to see if they even want to give you a face-to-face go at it. A stumble at any point can be life altering.

[Perhaps I’ll address the panel interview itself another time]

And yet, those having none of the traits which the HR experts claim to deliver continue to appear. Yep, their train set and all, but I understand the frustration.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

What about loyalty? Some guys have said no to the likes of Virgin, CX or EK to maintain within the QF group only to get the no from QF.

Says little to me for those who use group airlines as stepping stones to apply for competitors only to realise the grass is not greener. Then decide to apply for QF and get accepted.

Does the HR panel consider this in their decisions?

Firstly, no, they’re not looking for loyalty. We’re talking about people who joined 6 months ago, will be gone again next year, and think that anyone who hasn’t had at least 7 employers by the age of 30 is a weirdo. What they’re looking for is compliance and a willingness to gush effusively on Yammer, which is not the same as loyalty.

Secondly, after witnessing the behaviour of the Group under Alan, Leigh, Olivia & co in recent years, anyone who passes up a more attractive job because of loyalty should probably be rejected on the grounds of diminished mental function.

[Lapon]

Secondly, after witnessing the behaviour of the Group under Alan, Leigh, Olivia & co in recent years, anyone who passes up a more attractive job because of loyalty should probably be rejected on the grounds of diminished mental function.
This quote: Hilarious but probably true.

I think the concept of loyalty is something wrongly taught to the current generation from a bygone era. I imagine my career would be further progressed had I shown as little of it as the operators I worked for had. At the end of the day you are a just a number in a system. 30 or 40 years later you walk out for the last time and are forgotten by organisation and remembered only by those you had a personal connection with.
Your replacement will arrive with no knowledge of you and the show will go on.

[Seagull201]

Lol. You idiots think it’s just about hours in the log book? Thanks for demonstrating my point perfectly in one respect though.

A few themes running parallel so ill try and cover them off.

1. I’ve long been an advocate that the back seat is a great place to learn about airline operations. Maybe the ideal path for a cadet should be S/O for a few years, then a regional F/O and perhaps even to command before returning to a jet. In that respect Dunda you’re definitely taken a wrong turn in your logic.

2. The right person with little experience is a better long term option than the wrong person with lots of ‘’experience’. Sure, there is a nuance and a balance to this point but there are ways of structuring your operation to cater for the less experienced. (I hope one of you clowns doesn’t think I’m advocating for ‘no experience’. Still, it’s 2018 and very little surprises me this days when it comes to people wilfully mis reading posts).

3. I’m not sure in any of my recent posts the issues that I’ve raised was about the lack of experience that regional drivers have. In fact a re- read of my earlier posts advocates taking a wide range of candidates from across multiple disciplines to assist in building a more robust experience base. Sometimes that means taking on the people I’ve spoken about in point 2. My issue has always been about the atttide, not the experience.

4. Any ‘sole source’ internal recruiting pool is damaging for the long term success of an airline. I like flying with people from other airlines, the RAAF, GA, cadets, internals, because it gives me and others of my vintage a new set of eyes and minds to review our operation. It took some of those eyes post Ansett in 2001 to be able to get some cut through on certain CRM policies and definitions within Qantas.

Let me be blunt- far more than I have been to this point. My sole interest in the recruiting process is whether it gets the ‘right person’ identified in point 2. If you’re in a ‘group airline’ and suggesting that because of this status you should be the only pool of candidates mainline recruits from you’re actually demonstrating why you’re not suitable for mainline- at least not at the moment... maybe when you wise up a bit more and/or adjust the attitude. If you’re suggesting that you’ve got three years experience as a Dash F/O and therefore this will make you a good airline pilot then you’re sorely mistaken. It might if you’re the right person- though the right person would also know that it’s actually less to do with the 1800 Dash F/O hours and more to do with who they’ve become in those 1800 hours. Those hours mean squat though if you’re not the right person. No amount of experience will make up for it.

So take a good hard look in the mirror mirror folks and ask yourselves what makes you the ‘right person’. If you’re telling yourself it’s because you’ve been in the group for a few years so you should have priority then I’ve got some hard news. If you’re telling yourself it’s because of who you are as a pilot and a person and what you bring to the table then I look forward to flying with you.

Actually, I think these words sum it up.

Recognise them Dunda? Are these not the crux of my point?

Keg,

Your post is absolutely garbage!

Anyone flying a Dash 8, is more than capable of taking the next step and operating an A320/737/A330/787, AS an F/O,
whether with QF or any other airline around the world.

You seem to have issues or you don't like people coming into QF mainline, from the Dash 8's or general aviation,
you should be continuously mentoring S/O's, not being critical of people.

Words used to describe people in your above post, demonstrate to me, that you have an attitude problem.

You give the impression with your post, that you're the only person with an ATPL and fly a wide body aircraft in the world.
Have a bit more respect towards other pilot's, no matter what they fly.

You're only an employee number and not management!

[das Uber Soldat]

I like where this is going.

[jetlikespeeds]

If you’re telling yourself it’s because of who you are as a pilot and a person and what you bring to the table then I look forward to flying with you

What a load. I am sure many of our ‘internals’ have sat there and asked themselves the same question, with rejection letter in hand whilst strugglers, pilots who have caused multi million dollar damage bills, a high ratio of females, and non check and training (ie; more expendable pilots) have breezed through the process.

How do you explain it to them?

[TimmyTee]

Keg, so you want the right fit people that you will have to sit next to, yet see no benefit in someone being in the group for 3-5 years being continually monitored and assessed to group standards?

I hope you’ve never been in charge of assessing these poor bastards and affecting their careers.

[TimmyTee]

How do you explain it to them?


In Kegs own words “they must have just wanted it more”

[Chad Gates]

It may not be an indication of numbers, but when the picture of new recruits is sent through in the propaganda emails, there is usually one female to a group of 8 or sometimes 2 to the larger groups. The blokes seem to be getting a fair go.

[TimmyTee]

It may not be an indication of numbers, but when the picture of new recruits is sent through in the propaganda emails, there is usually one female to a group of 8 or sometimes 2 to the larger groups. The blokes seem to be getting a fair go.

Didnt someone on here say that roughly a third of the QF cadets were cut, with males making up that entire third? Surely that can’t be correct. Otherwise wouldn’t it mean 30 odd guys were cut, yet not a single female?

[neville_nobody]

The moral to the story is if you want a job in mainline then get a job in non-group airline. Lapon's post is the reality of the situation.

[Flyboy1987]

It may not be an indication of numbers, but when the picture of new recruits is sent through in the propaganda emails, there is usually one female to a group of 8 or sometimes 2 to the larger groups. The blokes seem to be getting a fair go.

So around 1-2 females per 8 males.
I imagine there would be around 1 female applicant to 20-25 male applicants?
It’s very obvious that having a vagina will put you at some sort of overall advantage, we’ve all witness the push for more female pilots and their target of 50:50.

[AerocatS2A]

Keg,

Your post is absolutely garbage!

Anyone flying a Dash 8, is more than capable of taking the next step and operating an A320/737/A330/787, AS an F/O,
whether with QF or any other airline around the world..

Bollocks. Some Dash 8 FOs aren't fit to go any further than being a Dash 8 FO, some of them shouldn't even be on the Dash 8 (this is not specific to the Dash 8, in any population of workers there will be some who are only barely fit to do the job they are doing). Even then, no company wants to hire someone who could operate an "A320/737/A330/787, AS an FO", they want to hire people who can go on to be captains.

[Lapon]

Nothing against the sheilas, but what is it that QF/JQ seem to think the blokes are SO bad at that has nessisitated this push towards gender goals.

Sure it's a male dominated job.... probably because it doesn't appeal to that many females in the same way very few males are interested in beauty therapy.

Maybe QF should provide some more transparent feedback as to why an applicant was unsuccessful (ie what they want to see next time), but then again I guess you have to ask yourself why would the really care when there are plenty more applications to burn through.
Whether you stay in the group or leave, are happy or disgruntled, is of little consequence to those making the decision to cut you or not.
Sad but true. As mentioned above, loyalty is your failing IMO.

[ACMS]

I’m not in QF but I believe that any Pilot that is employed in a QF group Airline with a successful track record of check and training should get priority over outsiders AND a steamlined selection process......

Some here are holding on the edge too tight.

[mrdeux]

Nothing against the sheilas, but what is it that QF/JQ seem to think the blokes are SO bad at that has nessisitated this push towards gender goals.

I doubt that they do. They just think that they'll be more compliant...

[C441]

Wow, I must have been reading the alternative universe copy of Keg's post!
What I read is that he believes Qantas should be employing the best candidate; one who has a reasonable ability to operate an aircraft and is able to comfortably fit into the crew environment in the back seat at first, but have the appropriate skills (physically, psychologically and socially) to become a F/O then Captain. If that person comes from outside the group or inside is irrelevant and those currently inside may not necessarily be ahead of the queue.

Unfortunately it's largely irrelevant as the impression I get is the only thing you'll need to do is impress the HR representative on the panel and/or meet some other non-operational selection criteria. From what I'm hearing, flying and operational ability and aptitude has little to do with a successful application. That's not to say we've employed a bunch of duds in this round. Quite the contrary, we've employed some excellent pilots, but 'skills' other than flying seem to have a higher priority.

[Capt Fathom]

but 'skills' other than flying seem to have a higher priority.

Who'd have thought that would be a job description for a pilot. I think I'll drive from now on!

[The Green Goblin]

Its hard to sit hear and read some of this garbage without adding my bit.

Working for the link, jq qf or any group company doesn’t entitle you (or me) to a thing.

All the divisions have their own requirements and their own cultures.

Flying a jet ’aint hard. Its a retirement job.

The hard part is the interpersonal. The non technical. The art of remaining humble. Of fitting in to the culture.

Then doing all that stuff on a bad day when things are going wrong. Or right, but not your way.

QF pilots arent better or worse than anybody else. They have their own culture and the HR process is about ensuring you’ll fit in. HR doesn’t always get it right. What I can tell you though is most of the QF guys Ive had the pleasure to fly with over the years have been that same guy.

If you’re not that guy, or girl. Its not a big deal. Theres other places that will suit you and give you the career path you desire.

HR are probably doing you a service.

Sometimes it takes a little more maturity and perspective to realise that.

+1 for keg.

Cheers

[wombat watcher]

Its hard to sit hear and read some of this garbage without adding my bit.

Working for the link, jq qf or any group company doesn’t entitle you (or me) to a thing.

All the divisions have their own requirements and their own cultures.

Flying a jet ’aint hard. Its a retirement job.

The hard part is the interpersonal. The non technical. The art of remaining humble. Of fitting in to the culture.

Then doing all that stuff on a bad day when things are going wrong. Or right, but not your way.

QF pilots arent better or worse than anybody else. They have their own culture and the HR process is about ensuring you’ll fit in. HR doesn’t always get it right. What I can tell you though is most of the QF guys Ive had the pleasure to fly with over the years have been that same guy.

If you’re not that guy, or girl. Its not a big deal. Theres other places that will suit you and give you the career path you desire.

HR are probably doing you a service.

Sometimes it takes a little more maturity and perspective to realise that.

+1 for keg.

Cheers


Well said.

[Capt Fathom]

Flying a jet ’aint hard. Its a retirement job.

Damn. I wish someone had told me that 20 years ago! I should have mentioned that to HR at the interview! :}

[Keg]

Crikey there’s a lot of verballing going on here. Thanks to so many for illustrating my point so well though- particularly the bit about people wilfully misreading. Thankfully people like C441, Goblin and wombat watcher (the latter two JQ and mainline I think) get it.

Timmytee. Keg, so you want the right fit people that you will have to sit next to, yet see no benefit in someone being in the group for 3-5 years being continually monitored and assessed to group standards?

I’m sorry, where did I say this? Your comprehension is appalling. Of course there is some benefit though I suspect we’d quibble as to the extent of that benefit. So let me say it clearly again. If you’ve been in a regional gig in a subsidiary for 3-5 years (or let’s face it, any job in Aviation for the amount of time to have the appropriate level of experience) and as a result of that experience you think deserve a walk up start into Qantas mainline then you’re demonstrating perfectly why you’re NOT the right person.

While you’re at it, I’m not sure where I said this comment either.

In Kegs own words “they must have just wanted it more”

I’m not sure I’ve ever made such a point. It runs so contra to my life outlook it’s not funny. I wanted to be an astronaut. I wasn’t good enough. It’s not about wanting but if burning your straw man helps you feel good about yourself then burn away.

jetlikespeeds, I’ve never stated the process gets it right. Sadly there are those who Qantas have knocked back who would’ve been awesome and some we’ve taken that quite obviously we shouldn’t have. A knock back from Qantas doesn’t define a person- just as getting a job with Qantas doesn’t define a person. If you think that was what my post was about then you too need to work on your comprehension skills.

Seagull, you’re probably right. Most regional pilots easily make the transition to flying a jet. That still doesn’t make them the ‘right’ person to be doing so. We can all probably think of a number of examples of people who could ‘do the job’ but we all wondered how they got there and how they stayed there. Mostly these people were widely detested by the rest of their pilot colleagues- a former regional Dash captain who has made a name for himself throughout the ME and Asia and loves to instagram with his dog springs to mind. These people probably thought that because they’d been [insert aircraft type] subsidiary pilots that they ‘deserved’ a job with mainline.

So so let me be blunt (again) for those unwilling or unable to comprehend my previous post.

1. If you’re a great pilot with a great attitude I hope I get to fly with you.
2. I don’t care where you learned those skills and attitudes. I don’t care if you’re ex RAAF, ex GA, ex subsidiary regional or jet operator, ex cadet, ex flying instructor.
3. If you think that because you’ve done ‘A, B, C’ for 3-5 years that you’re entitled to a job in mainline (or VOZ, or NASA or anywhere else you think you deserve a shot at because you’ve ‘done your time’) you’re an idiot. The world doesn’t (and shouldn’t) work this way. It’d destroy organisations through complacency.

But hey, you guys know everything anyway so obviously there’s nothing to learn from me. Enjoy your careers.

How’d that go for a word count? Do I need more to cater for fool sufferer?

[greenfields]

Blunt is an interesting word, - it has a particular meaning to a certain demographic. In line with that usage I find your words very interesting Keg, because the rumour is you fairly recently put forth a piece stating that all the RAAF pilots applying should be placed at the top of the recruiting process, to be handled before all others? That's not quite in line with what you are trying to portray above.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Keg, so you want the right fit people that you will have to sit next to, yet see no benefit in someone being in the group for 3-5 years being continually monitored and assessed to group standards?


I know there’s a group paint scheme and a group pilot costume, but is there such a thing as ‘group standards’ that pilots are assessed to? (Serious question)

[Keg]

Blunt is an interesting word, - it has a particular meaning to a certain demographic. In line with that usage I find your words very interesting Keg, because the rumour is you fairly recently put forth a piece stating that all the RAAF pilots applying should be placed at the top of the recruiting process, to be handled before all others? That's not quite in line with what you are trying to portray above.

Nope. Not true. I’ve never suggested they be top of the pile. I simply suggested they (and some others) should be in the pile for consideration.

Specifically I asked why we had knocked back a number of very qualified applicants before they had even attempted the psychometric testing, based on just their resumes. The examples I used included current RAAF pilots (who have more than 12 years), regional jet pilots 3,000+ hours of experience (specifically a few Aussies I know of in the US), etc.

Now, I suspect that most RAAFies would do quite well at the psychometric and be ranked for review accordingly but it’s their psychometric results that are part of what determines where in the pile they should be. Unfortunately many RAAFies didn’t even get to do the psychometric- and neither did a bunch of other very qualified pilots. In essence we’ve prioritised certain types of experience (or previous employers) without having a full view of the capabilities of the individual pilots.

So your ‘rumour’ is either a great example of Chinese whispers or perhaps something more malicious. You should examine very carefully which of those it is and the motives of the person who told it to you if it’s the latter.

Clear enough?

PS: I certainly didn’t use the term ‘blunt’ with any insinuations to the context of the the word when used by RAAF pilots.

[DutchRoll]

Still, it’s 2018 and very little surprises me this days when it comes to people wilfully mis reading posts.
You realise you're on PPrune, right? That ability of some to misrepresent your arguments has taken years of toil to finely hone! ;)

Totally agree we should recruit from a wide range of backgrounds while concentrating on the "right" person to the extent that it's possible to do so. Having flown with several of the wrong types of people slipping through an imperfect QF recruitment process (we all know who they are), I can say with certainty that it's neither a personally pleasant nor an operationally easy experience! Also it became obvious to me early in my QF career (through my own biases which I had to quickly discard) that it's not possible to confidently predict the "right" and "wrong" type of person solely on their aviation background, so no one pilot demographic should get a monopoly advantage in the recruitment process.

[Tankengine]

You realise you're on PPrune, right? That ability of some to misrepresent your arguments has taken years of toil to finely hone! ;)

Totally agree we should recruit from a wide range of backgrounds while concentrating on the "right" person to the extent that it's possible to do so. Having flown with several of the wrong types of people slipping through an imperfect QF recruitment process (we all know who they are), I can say with certainty that it's neither a personally pleasant nor an operationally easy experience! Also it became obvious to me early in my QF career (through my own biases which I had to quickly discard) that it's not possible to confidently predict the "right" and "wrong" type of person solely on their aviation background, so no one pilot demographic should get a monopoly advantage in the recruitment process.
Very true, good ones and tossers from every prior area.
Not sure if the current HR run recruitment will be worse or better? Some good guys and gals recruited recently, from a small sample I have flown with.

[dr dre]

Very true, good ones and tossers from every prior area.
Not sure if the current HR run recruitment will be worse or better? Some good guys and gals recruited recently, from a small sample I have flown with.

There will always be good ones and tossers recruited into airlines, and don’t forget it’s all up to individual perceptions and interactions as well. Your “good guy” could be someone else’s “tosser”.

I’ve found that a lot of criticisms of an airline’s recruitment strategy tend to be a mask for “I’m upset that me or my mates didn’t get a job here”.

[Lookleft]

Performance on the day can play a big part in whether you land the job. That includes the psychometric and interview. I knew a bloke a long time ago who was interviewed by Ansett and by his own admission did not put in a good performance in the interview. He is now a Captain in QF with a decent seniority number.

People should have another read of this quote from Keg:

A knock back from Qantas doesn’t define a person- just as getting a job with Qantas doesn’t define a person.

[greenfields]

Keg, as was relayed to me, you stated that you can't understand why every RAAF pilot who applies to Qantas isn't automatically sent for psychometric testing. So you are therefore holding a pilot group above all others, believing they are better candidates, and shouldn't have to follow the standard process. As most know, there are also RAAF guys who have joined QF that haven't progressed as one would expect (as there have been GA, regional and Cadets pilots who haven't.) It doesn't matter whether they are ex military, regional or GA, they should all be placed through the same process, resumes reviewed, and not given a pass just because they were ex RAAF. To believe otherwise displays a bias, or a certain naivety.

I trust implicitly the person who told me of your opinion, and they hold no ulterior motive.

[pilotchute]

Qantas, like many other workplaces follows whatever the latest hiring fad is. HR love making stuff up that has seemingly no scientific basis.

Asking me during an interview whay my biggest fear is could possibly be the stupidist question I have ever been asked. If you or someone you know who is a strong candidate didn't get past application stage they were probably weeded out on one of many worthless criteria come up with by HR.

[ruprecht]

Ex RAAFies are awesome though..

..and humble.

:)

[Keg]

Greenfields, this was your original allegation.

...you fairly recently put forth a piece stating that all the RAAF pilots applying should be placed at the top of the recruiting process, to be handled before all others?

Thats a very different thing from what your latter post.

Wothout posting the full full transcript of email/ SMS I fired off, here is the guts if it... perhaps the part of the story you weren’t told.

1. I’ve advocated for every pilot who meets the minimum criteria to do the psychometric testing. That way you find the ‘diamond in the rough’; the best psychometric pilots irrespective of experience. Sure there are more parts to the process but the psych helps builds a more complete picture.

2. Given that a line in the sand was drawn I questioned why we arbitrarily drew that line based purely on resumes and excluded some of the best trained pilots in Australia- RAAFies. I used the RAAF pilots of an example of why I felt the recruitment process was fundamentally flawed. In that respect I did ask if we were drawing a line in the sand, why were these people (as well as multi thousand hour regional jet pilots) excluded.

3. So no, not holding a pilot group above all others. Using them as an example of a flawed process and I suspect yours and my positions on all people should be progressed is virtually identical.

That’s not your perception of my position though so agian i suspect the version provided to you has not had some critical context. I’ll presume that was done of ignorance and not to tarnish my reputation.

[34R]

What a tedious thread this has become......

[SHVC]

It sure has!

[Keg]

Cognitive dissonance.


I’ve advocated for every pilot who meets the minimum criteria to do the psychometric testing. That way you find the ‘diamond in the rough’; the best psychometric pilots irrespective of experience. Sure there are more parts to the process but the psych helps builds a more complete picture.


I’ve removed the number so as to make it less tedious. :} :E

Perhaps the tediousness of this thread comes more from the often snide, passive aggressive, often personal attacks rather than an ‘opinionated individual’ responding to those things?

My humble thanks to those colleagues I’ve run into at work who encourage or thank me for something I’ve said on PPRUNE that resonates. Interestingly the rock throwers on PPRUNE never say anything to my face.

1. Anyway...
2. Enjoy the rest of your weekend folks.
3. Hooroo.

.

[logansi]

Asking me during an interview whay my biggest fear is could possibly be the stupidist question I have ever been asked. If you or someone you know who is a strong candidate didn't get past application stage they were probably weeded out on one of many worthless criteria come up with by HR.

Be careful with this question, know a guy who was going for a mining job in WA who was asked this question, his response was something happening to his family. When he was rejected they said they had concerns he may struggle with being away from home for extended periods of time........ An no - i'm not joking

[josephfeatherweight]

Be careful with this question, know a guy who was going for a mining job in WA who was asked this question, his response was something happening to his family. When he was rejected they said they had concerns he may struggle with being away from home for extended periods of time........ An no - i'm not joking
I don't doubt that for a second - and is the reason HR, and the power it appears to now wield in our industry, gives me the $hits...

[Gligg]

Just replace 'your' with 'their' when formulating your reply.

[dragon man]

So today we find out the additional 6 787 are starting to arrive next year not April 2020 as I believe was announced. Sydney basing will open earlier and therefore in my opinion pilot recruitment will have to pick up.

[crosscutter]

Revised schedule was announced previously, around May I think. Extra 787s (6) starting 2019 with the last arriving mid 2020... so old news but your point remains valid

[dragon man]

Revised schedule was announced previously, around May I think. Extra 787s (6) starting 2019 with the last arriving mid 2020... so old news but your point remains valid

Correct, my apologies, I’m hearing they are working on some form of sweetener to entice 747 crew to go there to avoid a RIN. What that is I don’t know.

[goodonyamate]

In either case, middle seniority and junior crew get screwed again.

[dragon man]

In either case, middle seniority and junior crew get screwed again.

How is that?

[ruprecht]

I’m hearing they are working on some form of sweetener to entice 747 crew to go there to avoid a RIN. What that is I don’t know.


That would have to be some sweetener.

[maggot]

That would have to be some sweetener.

Another email denying VR will ever happen again on the 747

[DutchRoll]

Sending every RAAF pilot to conduct psychometric testing without conducting a resume review first EQUALS placing all RAAF pilots at the top of the recruiting process.

No matter how much an individual tries to argue it isn't.
JFC. He made it clear that *every* pilot (RAAF, GA, Regional, hell..... even Navy) who meets the minimum criteria should proceed to psychometric testing. How that places RAAF at the top is beyond me. You can be the Wicked Witch of the West with 2000 hours on a broomstick. If that meets the minimum criteria set by the airline, you proceed to recruitment testing. End of story. How is that biased towards or against anyone?

[pilotchute]

Virgin dropped their mins to pretty much nothing at the start of 2018. What surprises me is the people getting interviews still have roughly the same CV as people did before the mins drop.

1500+ hours with 500 multi crew or multi PIC still seems to be what is wanted. I don't understand what they expect to achieve by dropping the mins if their expectations haven't changed.

With Qantas it's anyone's guess what they are after. The whole industry is confused. The mins should reflect the experience needed to at least get a face to face or a psychometric assessment.

[dragon man]

I gather that from Sept 1 under part 61 CASA has told Qantas that the initial second officer type check will now include sequences below 20,000, one of these been the candidate must be able to land the simulator in a 20 knot xwind with an engine out. IMO this makes previous experience highly relevant and simulator check as part of the employment process very relevant.

[ruprecht]

With Qantas it's anyone's guess what they are after. The whole industry is confused.

I did enjoy the quote from one of our newer SO's:

"I don't really like aviation, I'm just really good at it..."

That is not a joke.

[maggot]

JFC. He made it clear that *every* pilot (RAAF, GA, Regional, hell..... even Navy) who meets the minimum criteria should proceed to psychometric testing. How that places RAAF at the top is beyond me. You can be the Wicked Witch of the West with 2000 hours on a broomstick. If that meets the minimum criteria set by the airline, you proceed to recruitment testing. End of story. How is that biased towards or against anyone?
God no, not the navy

[DutchRoll]

I don't know what the min requirements are currently for QF, but when I was recruited they were fairly simple. You basically had the hours or you didn't. When your number came up you did psychometric testing and a quick "is there anything obviously weird about this applicant?" interview, and if you passed that you did a sim check, and if you passed that you did a final longer and more probing interview. Notwithstanding that none of these processes are perfect and it's always possible for someone to have a bad day and get knocked back, or someone else to be lucky and slip through (I know examples of both), the entire system was reasonably fair irrespective of aviation background. I've not read anything Keg has written on this thread which would deviate from that type of fairness in the recruitment system, but I have heard on the grapevine that HR people with no aviation background are making quite a hash of the system. That's the world over these days though, unfortunately.

God no, not the navy
Haha! Said firmly tongue in cheek of course! They were just young and foolish when they chose the wrong service! :D

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I did enjoy the quote from one of our newer SO's:

"I don't really like aviation, I'm just really good at it..."

That is not a joke.

Ther’re probably there to balance out those of us who do like aviation but are a bit crap at it.

[Lookleft]

I did enjoy the quote from one of our newer SO's:

"I don't really like aviation, I'm just really good at it..."

That is not a joke.

I don't doubt for a minute that is the attitude of a lot of younger pilots and with the numbers required in the future it will only become more prevalent. Mind you I did once meet a retired 747 Captain from MAS who felt the same way.

[Jeps]

Ther’re probably there to balance out those of us who do like aviation but are a bit crap at it.

That would be me.

[ruprecht]

They’re probably there to balance out those of us who do like aviation but are a bit crap at it.




Ha, nice one. :ok:

[Derfred]

I did enjoy the quote from one of our newer SO's:

"I don't really like aviation, I'm just really good at it..."

That is not a joke.

Future Chief Pilot ;)

[Lookleft]

Thats why they become flight ops managers.

[Tankengine]

Thats why they become flight ops managers.
Except usually they are not that good at it! ;)

[dr dre]

I did enjoy the quote from one of our newer SO's:

"I don't really like aviation, I'm just really good at it..."

That is not a joke.

Maybe they're just not an avgeek. Someone who doesn't fly privately outside of work, or doesn't religiously attend every airshow, or isn't spotting airplanes at the perimeter fence, or doesn't subscribe to every known aviation related publication. Doesn't mean they are incompetent or unenthusiastic about their job, but perhaps they have other interests outside of work.

[JPJP]

Maybe they're just not an avgeek. Someone who doesn't fly privately outside of work, or doesn't religiously attend every airshow, or isn't spotting airplanes at the perimeter fence, or doesn't subscribe to every known aviation related publication. Doesn't mean they are incompetent or unenthusiastic about their job, but perhaps they have other interests outside of work.

I admire your tenacity. However; I award you no points.

:E

[JPJP]

I gather that from Sept 1 under part 61 CASA has told Qantas that the initial second officer type check will now include sequences below 20,000, one of these been the candidate must be able to land the simulator in a 20 knot xwind with an engine out. IMO this makes previous experience highly relevant and simulator check as part of the employment process very relevant.

Are you implying that the second officer type check doesn’t include sequences below 20,000 ft. at the present time ?

[wombat watcher]

He’s just a regular smartarse and ********. They’ve been there for decades. They’re the ones who buy the flash cars on borrowed money when they get their first mainline paycheck. The cars disappear after a year or two when reality sets in.
Their only issue is that they don’t have the maturity to shut their respective mouths from time to time when a golden opportunity arises to not make a ******** of themselves.

[romeocharlie]

Are you implying that the second officer type check doesn’t include sequences below 20,000 ft. at the present time ?






New check as of the 1st September is as discussed to Part 61 ie. X-wind to 20, EO approach etc. Multiple crews have already done the new check. It's up on QF flightcrew if you're that keen, and for those that don't have access, you can get excited and look at the CASA MOS.

[mrdeux]

Another SO quote...."Flying is okay, but fashion is my passion".

I think I'm glad to be on the cusp of retiring.

[The Green Goblin]

Pick on the SOs by all means, but from what I’ve seen and heard, there’s far more interesting material coming from the captains :)

[ruprecht]

Pick on the SOs by all means, but from what I’ve seen and heard, there’s far more interesting material coming from the captains :)

Well fashion is definitely not their passion... :eek:

[Flyboy1987]

Another SO quote...."Flying is okay, but fashion is my passion".

I think I'm glad to be on the cusp of retiring.

As someone who never made the cut, and most likely never will with qf, it’s upsetting to hear these types of stories.

[maggot]

Pick on the SOs by all means, but from what I’ve seen and heard, there’s far more interesting material coming from the captains :)
Well that'd just be too easy

[JPJP]

New check as of the 1st September is as discussed to Part 61 ie. X-wind to 20, EO approach etc. Multiple crews have already done the new check. It's up on QF flightcrew if you're that keen, and for those that don't have access, you can get excited and look at the CASA MOS.

Fascinating. Congratulations to the “multiple crews” ( Translation - brand new SO like you. Because everyone else has done it repeatedly) for achieving those incredible standards :ok:

I thought Dragon Man was kidding. Apparently not. You’re the new face of QF ?

[romeocharlie]

You’re the new face of QF ?

Apparently so, sorry to disappoint.

[JPJP]

Apparently so, sorry to disappoint.

You haven’t disappointed me. I’m sure you’re magnificent :E However; You didn’t answer the question that I posed to Dragon Man. Let me rephrase it, since Sep 1 has been and gone

Are you implying that the second officer type check didn’t include any sequences below 20,000 ft, prior to the rule change ?

[greenfields]

Another SO quote...."Flying is okay, but fashion is my passion".

I think I'm glad to be on the cusp of retiring.


Well at least they're out and open about it. Nothing wrong with that - good to see they're not defined by their job!

[DutchRoll]

Pick on the SOs by all means, but from what I’ve seen and heard, there’s far more interesting material coming from the captains :)

In all my time at QF I've never wanted to stab myself in the eyeball harder than when sitting in the seat with my lowly 3 bars listening to a Captain ramble on about Federal politics for 2 hours (on more than one occasion).........

[mattyj]

Obviously you’re not command material if you can’t steer the conversation gently in the direction of best superannuation schemes or where the best fishing spots are near his holiday apartment in Hervey Bay

[dragon man]

Obviously you’re not command material if you can’t steer the conversation gently in the direction of best superannuation schemes or where the best fishing spots are near his holiday apartment in Hervey Bay

Neither are you (tounge in cheek) as your comment is not gender neutral.

[Max-Diff]

As someone who never made the cut, and most likely never will with qf, it’s upsetting to hear these types of stories.
What do you mean you most likely never will make the cut? Of course you will! If you really want the job, have a think about where you can improve, prepare well and have another crack. Never give up.

[jetlikespeeds]

If you really want the job, have a think about where you can improve, prepare well and have another crack. Never give up.

Have a sex change perhaps? Will drastically improve your chances.

[dr dre]

Have a sex change perhaps? Will drastically improve your chances.

I had a look last year at the recruitment numbers, the proportion of females employed was only a couple of percentage points away from the CPL/ATPL’s issued to women in the last decade. Maybe it’s not as disproportionate as commonly claimed.

[Flyboy1987]

Have a sex change perhaps? Will drastically improve your chances.

Thought about it, but can’t afford that and my whole wardrobe upgrade.

[TimmyTee]

I had a look last year at the recruitment numbers, the proportion of females employed was only a couple of percentage points away from the CPL/ATPL’s issued to women in the last decade. Maybe it’s not as disproportionate as commonly claimed.

if you’ve done the research, then I’m sure you’ll be happy to post the data here, or at least links to the data.

[Australopithecus]

Well, if women earned 10% of rhe CPLs but got 12% of the QF jobs that demonstrates a 20% hiring bias in their favour.

There may be other factors at work than mere gender however; it’s not hard to imagine that having to jump hurdles to break into this career may help develop the kinds of traits that test well in interviews.

[dr dre]

if you’ve done the research, then I’m sure you’ll be happy to post the data here, or at least links to the data.


http://www.australianindustrystandards.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/AviationWorkforceSkillsStudy.pdf

Page 93.

Well, if women earned 10% of rhe CPLs but got 12% of the QF jobs that demonstrates a 20% hiring bias in their favour.

There may be other factors at work than mere gender however; it’s not hard to imagine that having to jump hurdles to break into this career may help develop the kinds of traits that test well in interviews.


Women may also be more attracted to airline flying over other types of aviation, like rotary, for various reasons.

[Hold_Short]

Hi guys and gals,

Regarding this new and improved Qantas recruitment process, is it normal to take more than 3 months since interview, sim and medical and still yet to receive an outcome?

I have tried contacting them and they are always too busy to give me a straight answer. Each month I have been told of executive review then an outcome, but that has been a few months ago. Is this normal? Other airlines seem to get back to you a few days after assessments with result, but not at QF.

[mattyj]

That’s unprofessional and a blight on the organisation

[V-Jet]

HS: Anecdotally, and compared to any pilot/union negotiation (or even discussion) with QF, what you have described is the rolled gold, red carpet fast track experience. No mere employee would expect the fawning you have just outlined. I’ve spent longer on hold to get an update on a pattern change! You must have slept with the CEO to get treatment like that!

[Australopithecus]

Hi guys and gals,

Regarding this new and improved Qantas recruitment process, is it normal to take more than 3 months since interview, sim and medical and still yet to receive an outcome?

I have tried contacting them and they are always too busy to give me a straight answer. Each month I have been told of executive review then an outcome, but that has been a few months ago. Is this normal? Other airlines seem to get back to you a few days after assessments with result, but not at QF.

That’s pretty much what’s going to happen to you after you get hired, too. The pay deposit always happens on time though.

[Going Boeing]

Have heard that the planned pilot intake is being increased from 12 to 16 every four weeks - the additional four will be going to the A330.

[V24]

The latest hold file update indicated they’re only taking 6 per course at the moment.

[Keg]

The latest hold file update indicated they’re only taking 6 per course at the moment.

Yep. Courses increasing to 12-16... perhaps as soon as October course in four weeks.

[dragon man]

Yep. Courses increasing to 12-16... perhaps as soon as October course in four weeks.

Maybe just maybe the penny has dropped about the massive hole these morons are in. They have to start training on the 787 about February for the Sydney based 787s starting in October, if they can’t entice the 747 crews to change to the 787 they need to get massive more numbers on the 330 and 737 to release for the 787. Then they still have the RIN problem off the 747 they have just started to break the agreement by assigning 747 crews leave without following the correct protocol.

[Keg]

I suspect they’ve known for a while. Just haven’t been able to do much about it.

787s 9, 10, 11 due September, October, November next year. The latter two, maybe two and a half I suspect will be in next training year. Of course you’re right that you need to front load the 737 and A330 fleets to permit people to leave those aircraft for the 787 in July next year.

Another NTFS with 10 787 commands and a handful of A330 and 737 commands before the end of the year?

[dragon man]

I agree they know about it, however I disagree there is not much they can do about it. To fix the problem requires money and engagement , money they have but won’t spend, engagement amongst 747 crews is minimal, you reap what you sow. I am reliably told that the number of pilots on the 737 with a letter of preference to move is in the ninety percent mark, until they address the shortfalls of their contract the revolving door of training on that aircraft will continue for years. In my opinion the novelty of the 787 will soon wear off for those that have moved onto it. Once they have enough aircraft for daily services they will be flying 90 stick every 28 days, where it is doing only 3 a week like MLB/SFO and probably BNE/Chicago the novelty of spending 72/96 hours will also wear thin. Again IMO the light at the end of the tunnel is the train.

[Beer Baron]

Once they have enough aircraft for daily services they will be flying 90 stick every 28 days
So flying about 300 hours a year over the legal maximum or do they each get 12 weeks leave a year?

[dragon man]

As I’m sure you know only six weeks and rosters will be adjusted at bidding for limits. Again and it’s only my opinion that where this is headed is under fatigue manipulation (woops management ) to 1000 hours a year.

[POR777]

Does anyone know how long it generally takes to hear back from recruitment after reference checks and medical documents have been submitted? Thanks!

[Hold_Short]

Took 3 months to even hear back from them since finishing the sim ride and medical. Mind you, I was an internal candidate and they like to dangle the carrot for quite some time. I got a start date a few days after finding out I got the job and I’m quite glad as it actually gives me time to sell the house and relocate the family. Pretty stoked.

[*Lancer*]

Took 3 months to even hear back from them since finishing the sim ride and medical. Mind you, I was an internal candidate and they like to dangle the carrot for quite some time. I got a start date a few days after finding out I got the job and I’m quite glad as it actually gives me time to sell the house and relocate the family. Pretty stoked.



The extra time for internals is more about looking at the whole candidate picture and the coordination required with subsidiaries to get you. Congratulations on getting the carrot nonetheless :ok:

[JPJP]

The extra time for internals is more about looking at the whole candidate picture and the coordination required with subsidiaries to get you.



That right - it’s all part of a brilliantly coordinated, well organized process that involves the limits of modern computing power. Large teams gather to grind on a holistic, unified, shared mental model.

It’s incredibly powerful. It would bring a tear to the eye of most average humans.

[Popgun]

Pilot shortage to drive pilot salaries higher? Not at QF according to AJ. This won't come as a surprise to most but here is some direct insight.

The Business - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/the-business/)

This is an interview with Elysse Morgan from ABC program 'The Business'. Jump to 5'40" if you're short on time.

AJ: "...we've got a list as long as your arm."
Elysse: "So no pay rises for Qantas pilots then?"
AJ: "Qantas pilots are really well paid! You know an A380 Captain gets paid around $400,000 a year! A starting pilot at QantasLink gets paid $80,000 a year. I think they're good salaries and a lot of people out there, a lot of your viewers, would love to have one of those jobs."

PG

[Flydawg]

Pilot shortage to drive pilot salaries higher? Not at QF according to AJ. This won't come as a surprise to most but here is some direct insight.

The Business - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/the-business/)

This is an interview with Elysse Morgan from ABC program 'The Business'. Jump to 5'40" if you're short on time.

AJ: "...we've got a list as long as your arm."
Elysse: "So no pay rises for Qantas pilots then?"
AJ: "Qantas pilots are really well paid! You know an A380 Captain gets paid around $400,000 a year! A starting pilot at QantasLink gets paid $80,000 a year. I think they're good salaries and a lot of people out there, a lot of your viewers, would love to have one of those jobs."

PG
AJ must have forgotten the number of years pilots have spent in GA making less then someone flipping burgers along with the loans we took to become pilots.

[dragon man]

AJ must have forgotten the number of years pilots have spent in GA making less then someone flipping burgers along with the loans we took to become pilots.

He wouldn’t care less.

[Icarus2001]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x381/89c02f08cfbf7e286c0401ed3cfed2ef_full_8f24e3444e21de77cc62ae 6f7fc3d4ae66cf9322_c959132230439896f61bed617e7c1e99b49cf4b7. png

[bazza stub]

Not like AJ to lie by omission though.

[blow.n.gasket]

As Icarus2001 shows graphically , AJ has a lot of kissing of the Blarney Stone to do in order to convince the general public that his pilots are over paid when his remuneration , per DAY, is equivalent to the Average Aussies wage per YEAR !
Bit hard then to paint the pilots in a bad light when those sort of figures are realised !

[Outsiderlookingin]

I wonder if the public knows Mr Joyce makes more in a month then an A380 capt makes in a year, trying to make it sound like pilots are overpaid, and isn't the base pay for a new Qlink FO in the High 60's????

[bazza stub]

Doubt the public would care about his salary. The public just hate the thought that we pilots sit there doing “nothing” while the machine does all the work AND getting paid hundreds of thousands to do it.....pilot salary bashing is a sport.

Dont forget AJ has all that responsibility

[Going Boeing]

I see that QF A380 Captains have had a pay cut - when Joyce shut the airline down, he stated that A380 Captains were being paid more that $500K, now they’ve dropped to “over $400K”.

Everything that comes out of his mouth is absolute BS but he sees it merely as blarney.

[Keg]

My understanding is that they do.

[fullnoise]

Do the NZ based QF group pilots at Jetstar NZ and Jetconnect also have these rights ?

Yes. JC crew are already checked to line in the mainline system anyway, so I understand there's no sim assessment.

[Sparrows.]

Do the NZ based QF group pilots at Jetstar NZ and Jetconnect also have these rights ?

Both were at the assessment day in July, with the JC fellow already having a start date early next year while the JQ boys and girls (both AUS and NZ) still waiting to hear.

[Al Barsha South]

Many guys on the hold file for over 12 months now.

Rumour is that they will cut the bottom 20%.

Qantas recruitment is a disgrace.

[TimmyTee]

Do internals have to do a sim assessment? My understanding was that if you had been with the group for 24+ months, logically no sim required due to having training and sim records.
Hearing inconsistent messages on this though..

[717tech]

The candidates I’ve bumped into have said that’s their experience. +24 months, no sim required.

[Flyboy1987]

Many guys on the hold file for over 12 months now.

Rumour is that they will cut the bottom 20%.

Qantas recruitment is a disgrace.

Surely not?
what would be the point of that?
They’ve been tested and ranked accordingly.

The current lowest 20% may be more suitable than the next few years worth of applicants.

[34R]

Many guys on the hold file for over 12 months now.

Rumour is that they will cut the bottom 20%.

Qantas recruitment is a disgrace.


Bovine Excrement

[TXZ]

Hi Everyone,
I am an Y11 student who is ambitious on becoming a pilot. I have heard about Qantas' planning to open a new pilot academy, and am wondering:
How tough would their selection process be? thanks, tony

[Keg]

Tough? Depends on the individual going through the process. Some will find it difficult, others won’t. Some who find it difficult will get through to the job, some who found it easy will not get through- and vice versa.

If you’re in year 11 I recommend working hard at your maths and English subjects and exposing yourself to as many teamwork, decision making, leadership type situations as you can. Sports teams, debating teams, cadets, scouts, guides, customer service or other team type jobs, etc are all good things to stay involved with to develop the non technical skills required. Most people can be taught the ‘stick and rudder’ elements of the job. It’s the non technical skills that get you in the door for a cadetship.

Good luck

[Australopithecus]

But along with all of that perhaps a course in critical thinking to help you parse out all the probabilities of a happy and rewarding 45 year aviation career. Particularly to help you predict what happens to 50 year old pilots rendered moot by automation. In a mercantile, neo feudalist kind of way.

I disagree slightly with Keg when he implies that handling skills can be taught: they can, of course, but not universally*

*nowhere in the HR process or management reckoning are pilot tricks even a thing...perhaps in the sim assessment, if we are still doing those in five years. On the line you will be given kudos for how soon after Vr you can engage the autopilot, for a host of valid reasons.

[Keg]

I disagree slightly with Keg when he implies that handling skills can be taught: they can, of course, but not universally*

Hence,

Most people can be taught the ‘stick and rudder’ elements of the job.

(My added emphasis).

I suspect we’re actually in furious agreement about that point. Certainly most people good enough to get into a cadetship given the high levels of psychometric testing and inherent smarts that come with that would be able to be taught the stick and rudder.

[Australopithecus]

Hence,



(My added emphasis).

I suspect we’re actually in furious agreement about that point. Certainly most people good enough to get into a cadetship given the high levels of psychometric testing and inherent smarts that come with that would be able to be taught the stick and rudder.



Oops, should have read it twice after a long night slaving over a hot Airbus.

Regarding your point about testing and smarts: hmmmm. Not sure. It would be illuminating to see a study of the correlation between those things. Forgive my cynicism-I'm not even sure an indifferent manual handling skill set is even a barrier to entry anymore. What’s worse is, having had enough Kool-Aid and seen the market's apparent acceptance of ineptitude I think that it probably actually doesn’t matter from a risk:benefit point of view.

[TXZ]

Thanks, Keg! I am currently involved in debating, mooting and I did have a bit of part-time job experience at a pizza store. I am currently doing VCE maths methods+specalist plus physics which should be useful for aviation course.
What I am concerned is I am not a native English student which has Chinese(or mandarin as some people prefer to say). Would this be a disadvantage while competing other candidates in the process?
Also, I do hear about the psychologic tests as well and apparently, it is very different to prepare beforehand. I don't have a perfect personality and any tips for it? Thanks again.

[TXZ]

Thanks for your tips guys.
Another factor I am concerned about the selection process is the health issue. I was diagnosed with suspicious glaucoma and the doctors can't determine whether I actually have it or not. Could this be a jeopardise factor on getting class 1 medical?
Thanks heaps, Tony

[Australopithecus]

Your written English is at least coherent. Maybe polish up your use of prepositions.

Writing as someone whose Mandarin pronunciation is a rich vein of comedy for native speakers, I recommend a coach if your pronunciation causes more than rare confusion with monolingual English speakers.

[Australopithecus]

Thanks for your tips guys.
Another factor I am concerned about the selection process is the health issue. I was diagnosed with suspicious glaucoma and the doctors can't determine whether I actually have it or not. Could this be a jeopardise factor on getting class 1 medical?
Thanks heaps, Tony

Ask CASA. Perhaps you can undergo a Class 1 medical to get a quick impression of how alarmed CASA gets. A quick read suggests both specialist evaluation and a long time line evaluation to asses intraoccular changes. 祝你好运

[TXZ]

How alarm CASA could be during medical exam?

[Australopithecus]

Well, when they look at your examination results they either will or won’t ask for further testing, then they either will or won’t issue a Class 1 medical. Its cold, but at least you will then know where you stand medically.

When I wrote “alarmed” I was using colourful language that does not reflect the process: They will see if you fit within their guidelines or not, and then they will advise you accordingly

[TXZ]

Thanks. Any minimum age requirement for undertaking Class 1 medical? I am currently 17 years old.

[Australopithecus]

At 17 you should be ok...at least I don’t see any limit on their website.

What I do see though is probably $600 In costs Maybe you could just ask them the question somehow before incurring all that expense.

[Keg]

It would be illuminating to see a study of the correlation between those things.

Looking to do your PhD? :eek:

Is it Captain Dr Australopithecus or Dr Captain? :} :ok:

[Australopithecus]

Looking to do your PhD? :eek:

Is it Captain Dr Australopithecus or Dr Captain?

Field Marshall Doctor Captain DaDa, if you please. Good enough for Idi Amin, good enough for me. :ok:

[POR777]

Many of us have been waiting a month plus for the executive board review. Can anyone shed any light on if they get through all candidates in every sitting or there tends to be an overflow, thus delaying the process much further for the people who weren't reviewed? Cheers

[startno1]

I haven’t heard of any externals who interviewed from August this year and have a result yet. Those that completed the medical etc that is.

[Sparrows.]

I haven’t heard of any externals who interviewed from August this year and have a result yet. Those that completed the medical etc that is.

Vast majority of July internals and externals are still waiting to hear post medical etc. Some of both have heard, but the majority are waiting still.

[TimmyTee]

Hi Keg, any idea why more than a few internals, all with well over 2 years at the group, and now being asked to do Sim assessments after being told they would not have to (and getting beyond the medical in the process)?
Why put decent girls and guys through this insanely stressful chook raffle?

[blow.n.gasket]

Why put decent girls and guys through this insanely stressful chook raffle?

Big assumption that this mob of basket weaving experts of the rainbow persuasion would even be competent enough to run a Chook Raffle !
Hence the slow motion train wreck that is presently balling up .

[normanton]

How long did they tell you to expect on the hold file POR777?

[CurtainTwitcher]

How long did they tell you to expect on the hold file POR777?
Mañana Mañana (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mañana)

[POR777]

12-18 months as expected

[A320 Flyer]

Things must have really slowed down. I was on the hold file for 24hrs mid last year

[jetlikespeeds]

Things must have really slowed down. I was on the hold file for 24hrs mid last year

Were you an external applicant? They tend to give people outside the group priority.

[A320 Flyer]

Internal applicant

[startno1]

A few ‘yes’ emails gone out in the last week for the hold file, anyone received a ‘no’ yet after completing everything??

[rep]

Here is my advice from someone who has been through the process.

If you have been successful in getting an interview, you would have to be nuts not to do interview coaching (FDS/Pinstripe).

This is really a once in a lifetime shot at a decent job. Pay the $500 and come prepared. You would be shocked about how many people on my interview day (~25 people) didn't use it!

It's called 'playing the game'. Good luck all.

[pilotchute]

Can I get a "sim coach" for the six month checks too?

[The Green Goblin]

Yes you can pilotchute

I also highly recommend it, particularly if you suffer from simitis or performance anxiety.

We we all want to learn as much as we can, perform as well as we can and achieve the highest standard we are capable of.

We owe it to our passengers down the back, especially our cabin crew.

[C441]

For a quick figure go with 6.5 (8-week) Bid periods per year @ 165 - 175hrs per BP and you'll get a starting figure. There'll be allowances and some overtime on top of that when you're away and the trip length will vary from 3-5 (USA/Asia) to about 10 days away (LHR) depending upon fleet and base.
Haven't been an junior S/O for quite a while so can't offer much on lifestyle other than to say I don't hear too many complaints.

[Keg]

This post from a couple of years ago talks 787 rates. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/584827-qantas-recruitment-2.html#post9519434) Ironically it was addressed at your handle Hawk circle though it appears you may have erased previous posts? Add 3% for 1 Jul 18 pay rises.

Trip length varies widely between fleet and even within the fleet depending on the base.
SYD A380 S/Os can do 10 day LHR trips, 5-6 day DFW trips, 4 day LAX trips.
SYD A330 S/Os generally do 3-6 day trips. BNE A330 S/Os mostly 3 day trips but can do the 6 dayers.
SYD 744 S/Os mostly 4-5 days as they’re mostly out and back. A handful of 3 dayers too.
I’ve not researched the 787 S/O rosters.

Commuting to your base seems to be the biggest biggest gripe among S/Os.

[Transition Layer]

Current 787 Bases are MEL, BNE, PER with SYD the hot tip to be next announced shortly

[Max-Diff]

Is there any Perth based 787 SOs that commute from the East coast? Just wondering whether it's realistic.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I have flown with a few that are doing the commute. Seem happy enough doing so except when they are on blank line and have to commute over to do standby duties.

[maggot]

Is there any Perth based 787 SOs that commute from the East coast? Just wondering whether it's realistic.

There's been a heap of East coast commuters to per for the 330 in the recent past, Melbourne seems to be the easier option

[Nine_Inch__Wings]

How close to an ‘all internal’ process is mainline, and will it ever happen?

Wondering whether it’s possible to leave the group, then try for getting back in.

Does anyone know how many externals have gotten through to mainline, and if this will continue?

Cheers

[ruprecht]

As above but don’t forget to take into account that you don’t get staff travel for the first 6 months. Could be expensive.


Should be a 737 FO in 6 months. ;)

[startno1]

I can’t believe I’m hearing of people being put through the entire selection process, including spending a fortune on the medical, and getting a no thanks at the very end.
Doesn’t it make more sense to say to people you are in pending the medical?? It seems pretty simple.

[Brakerider]

I can’t believe I’m hearing of people being put through the entire selection process, including spending a fortune on the medical, and getting a no thanks at the very end.
Doesn’t it make more sense to say to people you are in pending the medical?? It seems pretty simple.

Absolutely agree. Have heard a few stories of this happening. Aside from the huge disappointment, why make someone spend all that money unnecessarily - unless of course it’s a Medical issue.

[bazza stub]

why make someone spend all that money unnecessarily

Because it’s Qantas and people are not worthy of any respect.

[Rated De]

Because it’s Qantas and people are not worthy of any respect.

Literature abounds with regard to the QF Industrial Relations model.

Whist there are more extreme postures, QF is adversarial.
Treating front line (Customer facing) the way they do would seem a farcical posture, but it is what it is.
Airlines are a team sport a dynamic and fluid business, having your people onside would seem axiomatic.

Herb Kelleher of Southwest said:

“Treat your employees like customers.”

It would seem QF didn't get the memo and extending that to potential employees is simply not in their playbook.

[neville_nobody]

The root of the problem is that there is no competition for pilot labour. If you had 3-4 other airlines based in Australia at QFs scale you wouldn't be paying for your interview medical that's for sure. As it stands QF basically get to see 99% of the Australian Pilot population at least once so they effectively can do whatever they want. I guess it gives you an insight into what you are up for over the next 30+ years of your working career.

[skysook]

Are there any updates on course dates, numbers per course and how many are still on hold waiting for a start date? I believe the hold file has been re-populated lately and I'm just trying to get an idea of how long the wait will be.

Cheers in advance if anyone can share some solid information.

Skysook

[Popgun]

The root of the problem is that there is no competition for pilot labour. If you had 3-4 other airlines based in Australia at QFs scale you wouldn't be paying for your interview medical that's for sure. As it stands QF basically get to see 99% of the Australian Pilot population at least once so they effectively can do whatever they want. I guess it gives you an insight into what you are up for over the next 30+ years of your working career.


Exactly.

With 10-20 more-than-suitable candidates for every available coveted position, the pilot shortage is a long way (never) from arriving at QF mainline.

PG

[Hold_Short]

I asked the same question when they sent me all the paperwork for the medical. They wanted all this completed at my cost BEFORE it would be sent to the Executive Review Board for consideration. I couldn't believe it. But they said I had to spend it to be considered, so I was left with no choice. What woukd have got me alot more annoyed is if I was unsuccessful.

They even had to cheek to say if you do not complete the medical we can can withdraw your application.

Further investigation uncovered that the information the company was looking for was for issues years down the track. Although I already held a Class 1 medical they wanted to find out if there was something that could impede myself in say 10 years time and ultimately affect my employment. I was amazed. They must be playing god in trying the predict the future.

[Hold_Short]

Are there any updates on course dates, numbers per course and how many are still on hold waiting for a start date? I believe the hold file has been re-populated lately and I'm just trying to get an idea of how long the wait will be.

Cheers in advance if anyone can share some solid information.

Skysook

What I have been told there are start dates each month for new/internal applicants. Thats as far as I got with them.

They said they will not issue fleet or base information to those new recruits until 4-6 weeks prior to start date.

[Aviatrix91]

The info hasn’t changed for those asking. You get your base and fleet when you get your start date which on the last course ranged from 10 days to 4 weeks out. There is 1 course every month with between 6-20 people on course ( last course had 10). Hold file varies ( appears internals get a date depending on your release from your current employer and it looks like for externals it’s competitive, ie dependant on how you performed which also means that if people interview after you but performed better they will start sooner) last course everyone was on hold file between 12-18 months.

[cqd]

Are new joiners getting courses on all the fleets or is it only 787/330? And are the bases varying a lot now or mainly Perth?

[bazza stub]

With 10-20 more-than-suitable candidates

10-20 candidates may be correct. More than suitable?? I’d check that if I were you.

Ask someone in the training department what the training success rate is these days compared to several years ago.

[Rated De]

10-20 candidates may be correct. More than suitable?? I’d check that if I were you.

Ask someone in the training department what the training success rate is these days compared to several years ago.





That is an interesting point you raise.
In Europe the parasite consumed the host a while ago: Recruitment became the domain of HR. Always looking for 'self justification' many flight operations departments lost control. The result was something that had training departments scratching their heads.
The input of pilots in pilot recruitment was at least in the case of several Europeans carriers, the least worst system. The result of less pilot input and more HR driven process has been increased training costs. 'Candidates' selected by 'talent acquisition' or other buzzword people lacked the 'je ne sais pas quoi' that pilots need. To be fair the experience levels are dropping as the supply of experienced pilots dries up, however the point remains that why allow a business to incur additional cost as a result of loss of process control? Several airlines are looking at removing HR input and returning to something more akin to days past.

In Australia, the lack of recruitment for many years may well have disguised the loss of process control. That loss may well be making itself evident now.
With Little Napoleon at the helm, things won't improve as QF is well and truly captured by management that know little of what it is airlines do: Selecting high quality pilots is one of them.

[startno1]

Sometimes out of the 10-20 candidates, the honest and more than suitable ones are being let go for ridiculous reasons after going through the whole thing.

If it's so cut throat, why do they give people a second chance on the talentq verification test? The only people I know who had to come back and resit these were the ones who didn't actually sit the first one themselves, surprise surprise.

[JPJP]

I asked the same question when they sent me all the paperwork for the medical. They wanted all this completed at my cost BEFORE it would be sent to the Executive Review Board for consideration. I couldn't believe it. But they said I had to spend it to be considered, so I was left with no choice. What woukd have got me alot more annoyed is if I was unsuccessful.

They even had to cheek to say if you do not complete the medical we can can withdraw your application.

Further investigation uncovered that the information the company was looking for was for issues years down the track. Although I already held a Class 1 medical they wanted to find out if there was something that could impede myself in say 10 years time and ultimately affect my employment. I was amazed. They must be playing god in trying the predict the future.

This is why they make you complete all parts of the testing prior to the Board. It’s the oldest trick in the H.R. book - If the medical turns up something that they believe will cost them money and/or your productivity in a decade, they are able to legally reject you. The candidate will never know that they were rejected for medical reasons, since it can be argued that there was some other fiendish flaw found in the totality of the information in your application (interview, simulator, or the cut of your jib).

If a job offer is extended pending the results of your medical, and you hold the required CASA Class 1; it is illegal to reject you on medical grounds. American Airlines used to have a medical prior to employment. They were informed that it was illegal, and quietly dropped that portion of the assessment.

[Rated De]

This is why they make you complete all parts of the testing prior to the Board. It’s the oldest trick in the H.R. book - If the medical turns up something that they believe will cost them money and/or your productivity in a decade, they are able to legally reject you. The candidate will never know that they were rejected for medical reasons, since it can be argued that there was some other fiendish flaw found in the totality of the information in your application (interview, simulator, or the cut of your jib).

If a job offer is extended pending the results of your medical, and you hold the required CASA Class 1; it is illegal to reject you on medical grounds. American Airlines used to have a medical prior to employment. They were informed that it was illegal, and quietly dropped that portion of the assessment.


Precisely.

It is even more nefarious than that.
As there is growing correlation between high altitude exposure to radiation and the continued circadian rhythm disturbance for long haul night operations, airlines are increasingly requiring all sorts of waivers prior to employment.