Qantas Recruitment

[Gazza mate]

I don't know why peeps here are arguing about the opportunity to get a $720k AUD job, which would be a senior Captain after many years of service at a US Major airline. The Majors aren't taking E3's, will probably never take E3's and from some reports on the other thread some of the US regionals are now starting to limit E3 hiring. Maybe make some money with Atlas but rosters will be brutal.

The big money overseas that Australians with jet experience would be eligible for in future years are more communing style contracts to Asia or permanent positions in the M/E. You would be earning more but not $720k AUD equivalent, and you'd be working hard and spending a lot of time away from home.

So best to try and improve T&C's and career paths in this country.

The $720k Aud is an interesting argument for a number of reasons. Firstly when have you ever heard of a 737 pilot earning $720k Aud? You can even compare apples with apples, a senior Virgin 737 Captain does the exact same job but earns a fraction of a delta/American pilot salary. The gap has never been this wide so it is very much worth the discussion.
As for foreign pilots flying in the US, I personally know a dozen Aussie pilots who have left Alliance, Cobham, Ek recently to take up the new lucrative jobs in USA.
Also, the captain wages are worth discussing because time to command is so low. With unfilled command vacancies recently in the US, you only need to serve the 18 month probation period before a command is a very real possibility.
As for needing our conditions in Australia to improve, well that will only be helped by default as supply for Aussie jobs dry up due to pilots heading to the US, so I’m all discussing and highlighting these new huge wages in the US. It really is unprecedented and worth the discussion, I’d be nervous if I were a stingy CEO of an australian airline.

[dr dre]

The $720k Aud is an interesting argument for a number of reasons. Firstly when have you ever heard of a 737 pilot earning $720k Aud?

2017 there were some news articles with claims of Asian contracts offering about $750k. Of course these would involve working long hours, and probably no commuting. Some other were offering something like $300,000 USD salary but no tax and living expenses paid for, which would be a hefty income in your pocket at the end of the day.

You can even compare apples with apples, a senior Virgin 737 Captain does the exact same job but earns a fraction of a delta/American pilot salary. The gap has never been this wide so it is very much worth the discussion.

An Australian carrier will only increase it’s salary as needed on an Australian supply and demand basis, they aren’t going to up their pay because some overseas carrier is paying more. The reason why US airline pilots have those high salaries is strong unions (and this is a bit of an outlier in the US as worker’s conditions are generally less than other countries). Unfortunately years of Australian governments dominated by anti union politicians have ensured we’ll never have legislation as strong.

​​​​​​​As for foreign pilots flying in the US, I personally know a dozen Aussie pilots who have left Alliance, Cobham, Ek recently to take up the new lucrative jobs in USA.

Not saying it hasn’t happened, but I believe unless you have US permanent residency you aren’t going to be working for a major. According to the US thread apparently Mesa, Breeze and now even Atlas have halted E3 hiring.

​​​​​​​Also, the captain wages are worth discussing because time to command is so low. With unfilled command vacancies recently in the US, you only need to serve the 18 month probation period before a command is a very real possibility.

Again, unless you have residency then that’s only an option at the regionals, and some of them are now shying away from hiring E3s.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

You would be earning more but not $720k AUD equivalent, and you'd be working hard and spending a lot of time away from home.

Most, if not all Aus domestic pilots are working big hours (FRMS being the target) and spending large chunks of the roster on multi day trips. So what’s your point? Comparing roster apples with roster apples, we are still being paid crappy salaries compared to the rest of the world.

[Farman Biplane]

A$720k is at the end of the proposed 40% pay rise over 4yrs.
This means that Senior narrow body Captain is currently earning circa A$500k today!
This is the relevant figure to compare todays Aus salaries with, and sadly they are still only around half as much. Cost of living (ex housing) is comparable in USA.
Same job same pay one day…tell him he’s dreamin!

[soseg]

Atlas just have a training back log. Give them a few months. Their VP of flight ops Jeff Carlson said they’re expecting many more carriers in USA to begin offering E3s soon.

Time will tell. Let’s hope they do and QLink loses even more pilots who are sick of being ok with living in Maddington or similar.

[Slippery_Pete]

All of my mates that work in QF (particularly those in short haul) have had enough. Sounds toxic.

They say the airline has been run into the ground from the top down. Crap management, penny-wise pound-foolish accountants running the place on bonuses and KPI. Cancelled orders for 65 Dreamliners that left them stuffed when COVID ended. Tired, ****ty fleet with inefficient A380 dinosaurs being refurbed from the desert when other airlines are all running around in B787s and A350s. Mascot land sold off to boost share price. Terrible industrial practices like the ground handling fiasco. Aircraft running around with 40+ open defects and significant engineering failures at a rate never seen before. Prang after prang by Swissport.

Domestic 737 operation does the lion’s share of the profit, and they’re complaining that they’re banging around in 20 year old jets. Meanwhile, contractors getting the shiny new tin in announcements with flowers and rainbows and love hearts from head office.

Make no mistake about it, every decision being made atm is a short term money grab to bolster the share price and get KPIs. At the end of this year, they’ll walk out with their own pockets full and the incumbent and the idiotic board will suddenly realise all that’s left is the skeleton of a once great airline. No assets, everything contracted out, tired/broken down jets - and staff that have been beaten down so many times, they just don’t care any more. And a safety record that has been flogged to death and relied on for so long, but which is closer than ever to being lost. Every piece of cheese (experienced staff, new equipment, safety first) has been stripped out.

Many of my mates are happy to stake their careers on the upcoming negotiation and are not afraid. One of them is itching for him to try and shut down the airline again as an industrial tactic.

It’s going to be a bloodbath.

When people don’t care any more, they don’t have anything to lose.

[Icarus2001]

When people don’t care any more, they don’t have anything to lose.

Well, other than a steady job paying $250,000 plus.

[dr dre]

Many of my mates are happy to stake their careers on the upcoming negotiation and are not afraid.


Any talk of PIA over the next EBA is pretty premature. The negotiating position of workers has changed for the better over the last 8 months or so. Some good improvements in T&Cs have been achieved in other employee groups without having to resort to much apparent PIA.

But beyond improvements to the contract PIA will not a achieve a new executive or board, more engineers or spare parts, more aircraft for mainline, more property being brought back or even prevent Swissport from running into things. Be realistic with what you can achieve.

It's likely that before the next mainline EBA is ready to be voted on we'll have a whole new executive management team.

One of them is itching for him to try and shut down the airline again as an industrial tactic.

In return for what?

[ScepticalOptomist]

It's likely that before the next mainline EBA is ready to be voted on we'll have a whole new executive management team.

And a new bogey man for us all to fear! :rolleyes:

[mcgrath50]

But beyond improvements to the contract PIA will not a achieve a new executive or board, more engineers or spare parts, more aircraft for mainline, more property being brought back or even prevent Swissport from running into things. Be realistic with what you can achieve.

It depends how you frame your industrial campaign. Are you a worker on well above average wages, with a (perceived) glamorous job asking for more wages? Or are you campaigning to fix a safety crisis, improve the experience of your customers, stopping uncaring managers destroying a famous Aussie brand? Teachers, nurses, ambos, firefightes all hide their wage campaigns in a safety/public benefit campaign.

We have lost deafult solidarity with workers taking industrial action in this country but you still get support if the public can see they get a benefit out of your campaign as well.

[Tangosierra]

Hey Sceptical I would not be surprised if it was a new Bogie WOMAN you will have to fear!!!

[SHVC]

Hey Sceptical I would not be surprised if it was a new Bogie WOMAN you will have to fear!!!Oh god I hope not. The current JQ one is not there for her experience and expertise she is useless. There only to satisfy the woke agenda.

[Slippery_Pete]

In return for what?

Not sure. I‘ll ask him next time we chat. My take would be:

Given we’re now in the early stages of the Aus pilot shortage, and there’s a well established and significant global shortage, and E3s to USA majors may soon be on the cards, and currently 40%+ pay rises in the states - I don’t think they’ll be chasing 3%/year 🤣

Management are so close to walking out at the end of the year with they’re bonuses after running the airline into the ground. Cash bonuses, share schemes, jacked up share price for an airline that has zero assets and about 12 efficient aircraft in a fleet of many hundreds. Everything is about short-term ramping up of the share price so they can leave with their own pockets full.

I’m sure they won’t want to get involved in a huge stoush with pilots. They will want to get it done so can they can quietly disappear into the night with their bags full of cash. There won’t be another airline shutdown as an industrial tool, because the board know the public are sick of their sh*t. They won’t risk their bonuses when the public disdain for Qantas is so high, nor would the government step in like they did last time.

The new engineer agreement shows what can be achieved. They received pay increments “in line with the wage agreement” BS so that management got their bonuses and could save face, but most of the engineers got huge pay increases through other avenues. We’re talking 20, 30, 40%.

That’s what it’s about at this point - management hell bent on getting personal bonuses. They’ll happily put through an agreement at the eleventh hour where pilots get a 30% increase in package … provided they can tell the board the new agreement is “in line with the wage freeze policy”.

It’s only once they’ve disappeared into the night with their own pockets full of money, to be sure to be sure, that the board and shareholders will realise they’ve been had.

[dragon man]

The engineers got that because they have balls, Qantas pilots have none.

[cLeArIcE]

The engineers got that because they have balls, Qantas pilots have none.
But ....but.. network is going to take all out flying.. they'll fly the 350 to London! :E

[cloudsurfng]

The engineers got that because they have balls, Qantas pilots have none.

yeah cool. Hey were you one of the ones that would have been happy to see the most senior pilots displacing everyone everywhere during Covid? That doesn’t take balls or spine.

[RobCl]

The new engineer agreement shows what can be achieved. They received pay increments “in line with the wage agreement” BS so that management got their bonuses and could save face, but most of the engineers got huge pay increases through other avenues. We’re talking 20, 30, 40%.

Similarly at Jetstar the agreement got up with hidden pay rises well above the supposed wages policy.

[dragon man]

yeah cool. Hey were you one of the ones that would have been happy to see the most senior pilots displacing everyone everywhere during Covid? That doesn’t take balls or spine.


Not at all but as usual you jump to conclusions. Covid was what it was a bad situation all round for everyone.

[cloudsurfng]

Not at all but as usual you jump to conclusions. Covid was what it was a bad situation all round for everyone.

sure was. No conclusions, that’s why I asked. Your comment aimed at your fellow QF pilots gave me a sniff of the same attitude those blokes had. A bit rich to say ‘no balls’ when we haven’t had any negotiations since Covid. SH will be a good litmus test. You know as well as I do that pilots attitudes to work aren’t the same as they were pre Covid.

[Ollie Onion]

Fantasy talk of 20-30% is just a waste of time, by the time we are negotiating the economy will be in the crapper enough that the Group will play the ‘tough times ahead’ spiel.

[dragon man]

And then in typical Qantas fashion it will be time for another round of VR

[dr dre]

And then in typical Qantas fashion it will be time for another round of VR

VR costs money, what’ll probably happen is the appearance of a “fantastic opportunity” for mainline pilots to take LWOP and go to other group subsidiaries, solving those entity’s crewing problems and mainline over-staffing in one hit…..

Having said that it seems that the recent spikes in cost of living haven’t decreased passenger numbers at all, from what I’m told forward bookings look strong and plenty of opportunity for more growth, especially internationally. The level of flying that exists now is still below what it was at 2019 levels, so even an economic recession in 2023 which generally would see flying go backwards, would not affect the airline as the airline still has to get to a 2019 level yet.

[dragon man]

Qantas pilots had the opportunity to vote down the last two EA in both cases they resoundingly voted them up. They were shocking deals proving what I was told as a young SO by an old Captain “ son never get in the way of a Qantas pilot and $10”.

[cloudsurfng]

Qantas pilots had the opportunity to vote down the last two EA in both cases they resoundingly voted them up. They were shocking deals proving what I was told as a young SO by an old Captain “ son never get in the way of a Qantas pilot and $10”.

they were speaking from experience. “Never get in the way of a senior qf pilot who has the chance to screw over a junior colleague for their own benefit” was the quote I was given In addition to the one you mentioned.

[dragon man]

Maybe you could give me some examples

[cloudsurfng]

Maybe you could give me some examples

well there was the opportunity to change bidding for one.

and the proposed screwing of everyone by right sizing the establishment over COVID.

a suggestion that SH pilots should be sharing a portion of their income with LH over COVID.

wanting to displace onto the 330 and then have first right of return to the 380

ask around, you’ll find more.

[dragon man]

So where have the senior pilots succeeded? The change to bidding went to a vote or did you forget and not one rank on one aircraft was successful. Next please?

[Ladloy]

330/350 contract is another example.

[dragon man]

You mean the C scale for new SOs

[Ladloy]

You mean the C scale for new SOs
Prime example

[cloudsurfng]

So where have the senior pilots succeeded? The change to bidding went to a vote or did you forget and not one rank on one aircraft was successful. Next please?

ah yes…the vote set up to fail! Voting by rank and fleet when people change rank and fleet was a farce.

so an opportunity to screw over only counts if it’s a success does it?

let’s see what happens with SH.

[foggier]

To be replaced by externals coming from where...150+ Cadets?

Once QF Mainline figures this out, recruitment from internals will grind to a slow halt in favour of externals so as not to jeopardise the entire machine. Easier to convince someone from REX or VA to join Mainline, than doing same to join any of the QantasLink or Jetstar group companies.

Absolutely hit the mark there. After waiting over a year QantasLink pilots have now got rough start dates out to 2025. If you join QantasLink now you won't likely see QF until 2026 if you're lucky. Who will join QantasLink with progression like this and pay below the award by the looks of it.

[dragon man]

And the successful vote was put up to pass by wrapping in up in a vote with large back pay. What you people don’t realise is you have given up your ability to control your lives and your careers . Do you see the North Americans doing something as stupid, of course not they want stability and control which you no longer have. Put it back up again and il bet you it wouldn’t pass.

[Dawn Patrol]

Back to the topic, what’s the movement looking like for the second half of 2023? Any word if recruitment will need to reopen?

[Bumble_Pilot]

Back to the topic, what’s the movement looking like for the second half of 2023? Any word if recruitment will need to reopen?


It hasn’t stopped I believe. Full up to end of June at the moment and I’m sure it will keep going.

[dr dre]

It hasn’t stopped I believe. Full up to end of June at the moment and I’m sure it will keep going.

I think they mean in terms of reopening recruitment for new applicants.

At this stage they’re still interviewing people who applied the last time applications were open. There are enough on the hold file currently to fill courses well into next year. So unlikely there will be a reopening for new applications until at least the end of this year.

[soseg]

Let's not forget when the last LH EBA came up for negotiation, er, I mean the ultimatum came up, the QF pilots were faced with the following:

Sign it or lose the A350 sunrise flying.
Mass exodus at the time of CX pilots with plenty of experience on airbus. This played on a lot of people's minds when the former LH CEO La Spina made the threats that they'll simply create another entity to do the sunrise flying.
I have no idea of guessing how the vote would have went, but before covid became a thing on the news, most talk I was hearing was to vote it down and take the chance of them creating an international QantasLink.
Early 2020 Covid hits the news. Very quickly everyone is worried as countries begin to close borders and everyone over the age of 30 has flash backs to the GFC, 9/11 etc. Covid put the nail in the coffin. Nobody was risking a no-vote when the industry was very quickly turning in favour of management.

Look how easily the company is giving away traditional QF routes to QLink subsidiaries domestically. Legally there's nothing the pilot group or the unions can do at the moment with them taking traditional 737 routes and handing them to QLink at half the wage. There is zero legal roadblocks to them creating a new entity for Project Sunrise as East Coast to LHR/NYC has never been done by mainline so they could easily argue it never was our flying to keep.

[VHOED191006]

Let's not forget when the last LH EBA came up for negotiation, er, I mean the ultimatum came up, the QF pilots were faced with the following:

Sign it or lose the A350 sunrise flying.
Mass exodus at the time of CX pilots with plenty of experience on airbus. This played on a lot of people's minds when the former LH CEO La Spina made the threats that they'll simply create another entity to do the sunrise flying.
I have no idea of guessing how the vote would have went, but before covid became a thing on the news, most talk I was hearing was to vote it down and take the chance of them creating an international QantasLink.
Early 2020 Covid hits the news. Very quickly everyone is worried as countries begin to close borders and everyone over the age of 30 has flash backs to the GFC, 9/11 etc. Covid put the nail in the coffin. Nobody was risking a no-vote when the industry was very quickly turning in favour of management.

Look how easily the company is giving away traditional QF routes to QLink subsidiaries domestically. Legally there's nothing the pilot group or the unions can do at the moment with them taking traditional 737 routes and handing them to QLink at half the wage. There is zero legal roadblocks to them creating a new entity for Project Sunrise as East Coast to LHR/NYC has never been done by mainline so they could easily argue it never was our flying to keep.
Wasn't there also the threat that the pilots on the Project Sunrise flights were going to come from China, if the proposed agreement wasn't agreed upon? I do sometimes wonder if such threat would have been followed through, and if so, if that would have backfired on management.

[PPRuNeUser01531]

Anything is possible nowdays. Company's choice at their sole discretion. Vast lack of solid unity and all important scope clauses have voided the union movement of any significant clout. Next development will be new hires employed on individual contracts with renumeration based on experience. This will in time further continue to divide and conquer the pilot group. Many factors have led to this unfortunate outcome,however the self importance and blatant greed of many senior aircrew has definitely worked in favour of the company.

[Ollie Onion]

The horse has bolted, the industrial advantage was lost years ago with the formation of a ‘Group’ where different entities are played off against each other. The company do have the ability to move flying to other entities and the pilots know that any one group would happily throw another group to the wolves if it means bigger or more exciting aircraft for them. It sucks but it is just the way it is.

[dr dre]

There is zero legal roadblocks to them creating a new entity for Project Sunrise as East Coast to LHR/NYC has never been done by mainline so they could easily argue it never was our flying to keep.

To reiterate the A350 will be operated under the LH EA, and the 321X under the SH EA in mainline, and work has already started on this management wise.

[Ladloy]

The horse has bolted, the industrial advantage was lost years ago with the formation of a ‘Group’ where different entities are played off against each other. The company do have the ability to move flying to other entities and the pilots know that any one group would happily throw another group to the wolves if it means bigger or more exciting aircraft for them. It sucks but it is just the way it is.
I wouldn't say it is just the way it is. I'm sure the US pilots never expected a 40% pay rise this year. Apathy is management's best friend.

[soseg]

To reiterate the A350 will be operated under the LH EA, and the 321X under the SH EA in mainline, and work has already started on this management wise.

Yes. I’m just saying that look how blurred the lines are in domestic with the subsids taking 737 routes and zero chance of pilots arguing that it’s an illegal transfer of business.

Sunrise hasn’t been done yet. There’s nothing stopping them from giving it to another entity, new or existing.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Are we saying, There is a genuine chance that mainline could be shut down and all flying moved to other groups? Well SH at least?

[aussieflyboy]

Are we saying, There is a genuine chance that mainline could be shut down and all flying moved to other groups? Well SH at least?

29 A220s (so far) along the east coast with Alliance taking NJSs’ current work. Certainly looks that way.

[engine out]

With around 800 training slots forecast on 73 in next five years and rumour of training being done overseas to keep up with demand I don’t think SH is going anywhere soon.

[H-Dog]

With around 800 training slots forecast on 73 in next five years and rumour of training being done overseas to keep up with demand I don’t think SH is going anywhere soon.
This. There is a reason the airline is recruiting like crazy, and it's not because they like paying extra money to pilots. It is that simple, people need to stop jumping at shadows.

[dr dre]

This. There is a reason the airline is recruiting like crazy, and it's not because they like paying extra money to pilots. It is that simple, people need to stop jumping at shadows.

Projected recruitment minus projected retirements still leaves a net gain of pilots about double what the A350 will require, so extra aircraft or extra utilisation of current aircraft is being planned for in the next 5 years beyond the A350. They aren’t planning on getting rid of a whole fleet of aircraft.

[romeocharlie]

Yes. I’m just saying that look how blurred the lines are in domestic with the subsids taking 737 routes and zero chance of pilots arguing that it’s an illegal transfer of business.

Sunrise hasn’t been done yet. There’s nothing stopping them from giving it to another entity, new or existing.

Can you (or anyone else) please explain to me how the recent legislation regarding multi-employer bargaining debates this exact situation? As far as I'm aware, it's precisely why the group CEO was vehemently against it.

[dr dre]

Can you (or anyone else) please explain to me how the recent legislation regarding multi-employer bargaining debates this exact situation? As far as I'm aware, it's precisely why the group CEO was vehemently against it.

Multi employer bargaining doesn’t stop a company starting up new entities to perform work traditionally done by legacy employees, but it ensures that all employees in all companies would be under the same conditions. Not just one group, all Australian airlines flying similar aircraft. So a VA , QF, Rex and Bonza 737 driver would all be on the same conditions. It would also allow multiple employee groups to take PIA at the same time.

For obvious reasons employers are vehemently against this. Unfortunately for them it’s now law. For the time being it seems to be more targeted at low wage workers in unskilled jobs. It may come into play for pilots in future years, or companies may stop the outsourcing of labour and start to reverse course to prevent industry wide PIA which may happen under the new legislation.

Interesting article on multiple employer bargaining here:

The world is shifting to multi-employer bargaining. Will Australia fail to follow? - ABC News (https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101646706)

[romeocharlie]

Multi employer bargaining doesn’t stop a company starting up new entities to perform work traditionally done by legacy employees, but it ensures that all employees in all companies would be under the same conditions. Not just one group, all Australian airlines flying similar aircraft. So a VA , QF, Rex and Bonza 737 driver would all be on the same conditions. It would also allow multiple employee groups to take PIA at the same time.

For obvious reasons employers are vehemently against this. Unfortunately for them it’s now law. For the time being it seems to be more targeted at low wage workers in unskilled jobs. It may come into play for pilots in future years, or companies may stop the outsourcing of labour and start to reverse course to prevent industry wide PIA which may happen under the new legislation.

Interesting article on multiple employer bargaining here:

The world is shifting to multi-employer bargaining. Will Australia fail to follow? - ABC News (https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101646706)

I guess what my question is, is what does this look like? Does it happen when each EBA is up? Ie. when the Network A320/JQ 320 etc is next up, does the FWC (or whoever enforces this new legislation) ensure (and how) that the new agreement is under the same conditions/pay rate as mainline? What's the benchmark? Assuming it's not just unskilled labour as old mate Gina and all her friends were all against it too. I have read enough about it, but I'd like to know how you think it'll be implemented?

[dr dre]

I guess what my question is, is what does this look like? Does it happen when each EBA is up? Ie. when the Network A320/JQ 320 etc is next up, does the FWC (or whoever enforces this new legislation) ensure (and how) that the new agreement is under the same conditions/pay rate as mainline? What's the benchmark? Assuming it's not just unskilled labour as old mate Gina and all her friends were all against it too. I have read enough about it, but I'd like to know how you think it'll be implemented?

It's tricky to say how it will pan out in the airline industry. It's not a law that requires all airlines to pay the same rates to their staff for flying similar sized aircraft compared to the highest paid pilots in the country (in this case mainline). All it allows for is for a union representing two different employee groups both with open EAs to bargain together and perhaps take PIA together. They can demand their lower paid pilots to be pay matched with higher paid workers, but the company doesn't have to agree and if it ends up in front of the FWC they don't have to agree to union claims. However different employee groups can use the new provisions to bargain together and potentially take PIA together which will improve their bargaining position. Almost all industry groups and major employers are against the legislation, irrelevant as it's law now.

[Transition Layer]

It's tricky to say how it will pan out in the airline industry. It's not a law that requires all airlines to pay the same rates to their staff for flying similar sized aircraft compared to the highest paid pilots in the country (in this case mainline). All it allows for is for a union representing two different employee groups both with open EAs to bargain together and perhaps take PIA together. They can demand their lower paid pilots to be pay matched with higher paid workers, but the company doesn't have to agree and if it ends up in front of the FWC they don't have to agree to union claims. However different employee groups can use the new provisions to bargain together and potentially take PIA together which will improve their bargaining position. Almost all industry groups and major employers are against the legislation, irrelevant as it's law now.

Interesting Dre…does that mean there’s also potential for QF SH and LH to bargain together if they both have open EAs?

[soseg]

With around 800 training slots forecast on 73 in next five years and rumour of training being done overseas to keep up with demand I don’t think SH is going anywhere soon.

Define soon.

You let me know when they order 1:1 A321XLR against the retiring 738. Or, show me evidence that with less frames they'll be utilised to an amount where the hours flown will be the same / SH pilot numbers don't decrease.

The fact is the subsidiaries are taking mainline flying whether you like it or not.

Network A320 out west seats the same amount as a 737. It's doing a lot of traditional mainline RPT routes. Rumoured to soon be doing Perth-Bali. And they won't be the first QantasLink outfit to be doing international jet routes. That's already started.

[morno]

Define soon.

You let me know when they order 1:1 A321XLR against the retiring 738. Or, show me evidence that with less frames they'll be utilised to an amount where the hours flown will be the same / SH pilot numbers don't decrease.

The fact is the subsidiaries are taking mainline flying whether you like it or not.

Network A320 out west seats the same amount as a 737. It's doing a lot of traditional mainline RPT routes. Rumoured to soon be doing Perth-Bali. And they won't be the first QantasLink outfit to be doing international jet routes. That's already started.

Edited, my bad, apologies

[soseg]

Spoken like a true US visa holder who now thinks that Australian aviation is beneath them, but always feels the need to throw their opinion in on a subject so that they can make themselves feel superior.

I work for the same company as you.

[aussieflyboy]

Define soon.

You let me know when they order 1:1 A321XLR against the retiring 738. Or, show me evidence that with less frames they'll be utilised to an amount where the hours flown will be the same / SH pilot numbers don't decrease.

The fact is the subsidiaries are taking mainline flying whether you like it or not.

Network A320 out west seats the same amount as a 737. It's doing a lot of traditional mainline RPT routes. Rumoured to soon be doing Perth-Bali. And they won't be the first QantasLink outfit to be doing international jet routes. That's already started.

This is accurate. If you haven’t seen already the A220s are coming with ‘Qantas’ written on the side not ‘QantasLink’

[dr dre]

Define soon.

You let me know when they order 1:1 A321XLR against the retiring 738.

At the moment the plan is the oldest 737s are replaced by the first 321X, and it looks as if they'll go to 24 years. So the next 321X order will only arrive post 2027, as the 738 fleet isn't all that old. The latest is only 9 years old, and they'll only confirm the replacements when needed.

​​​​​​​Network A320 out west seats the same amount as a 737. It's doing a lot of traditional mainline RPT routes. Rumoured to soon be doing Perth-Bali. And they won't be the first QantasLink outfit to be doing international jet routes. That's already started.

PER-DPS hasn't been a mainline route ever (well at least this century). QL (Alliance) is only doing DRW-DPS, DRW-SIN has apparently been canned. So no QL taking QF international flying, and I wouldn't like to see the reliability of those admittedly old A320s on international routes. May also have EDTO issues.....

At the end of the day I think supply and demand will limit the possibility of the various QL entities expanding to the point where they become the new mainline. What we do know is, even accounting for retirements and the pilots required for the 12x A350s, that mainline will have a few hundred pilots more than they have now in 4 years time. What this is for is still unknown, but the number of excess crew being hired is enough to crew about 30 more SH or 10 LH aircraft, beyond what exists now.

[dr dre]

Interesting Dre…does that mean there’s also potential for QF SH and LH to bargain together if they both have open EAs?

Potentially. But then management could argue that the work performed by LH and SH is fundamentally different enough they shouldn't be on a single EA. It's still pretty much an unknown how this will play in the long term.

[soseg]

At the moment the plan is the oldest 737s are replaced by the first 321X, and it looks as if they'll go to 24 years. So the next 321X order will only arrive post 2027, as the 738 fleet isn't all that old. The latest is only 9 years old, and they'll only confirm the replacements when needed.



PER-DPS hasn't been a mainline route ever (well at least this century). QL (Alliance) is only doing DRW-DPS, DRW-SIN has apparently been canned. So no QL taking QF international flying, and I wouldn't like to see the reliability of those admittedly old A320s on international routes. May also have EDTO issues.....

At the end of the day I think supply and demand will limit the possibility of the various QL entities expanding to the point where they become the new mainline. What we do know is, even accounting for retirements and the pilots required for the 12x A350s, that mainline will have a few hundred pilots more than they have now in 4 years time. What this is for is still unknown, but the number of excess crew being hired is enough to crew about 30 more SH or 10 LH aircraft, beyond what exists now.

Maybe. I hope you're right but I'll maintain my pessimistic outlook.

Seniority is back over 2700 as it was pre covid when they were expecting the last 3 787s to arrive.
The difference is -2 a380s and -2 a330s and minus whatever 747s we had a few years ago.

Sure, the a321XLR will drive training/recruitment as a lot will be in the training system, as will the a350 as that's in addition to what LH has now. But that training aside, and 12x a350s aside, the remainder of it is just to fill the large retirements.

After management at the top change hands later this year, maybe by this time 2024 we will know what's the longer term goal, especially with more potential a321s or a330 replacements. I'm not holding my breath. It will be a trickle of planes and FlightRadar24 will continue to show nothing but foreign carriers dominating the skies in and out of Australia.

11 787s are all that have arrived to mainline over... what, 15 years? 3 more to come. Wow. Big numbers.

Not one plane has come to mainline that AJ has ordered. And until only a few months ago - not one was ordered under him either.

My question, and maybe you can answer it for me as I actually don't know - how many 747s did we retire since... say 2010? How many 767s did we retire in the last 15 years?

[Global Aviator]

PER-DPS hasn't been a mainline route ever (well at least this century). QL (Alliance) is only doing DRW-DPS, DRW-SIN has apparently been canned. So no QL taking QF international flying, and I wouldn't like to see the reliability of those admittedly old A320s on international routes. May also have EDTO issues.....



Interesting sentiment re the 320’s. Aren’t about 8 of them from Jetstar Asia that used to fly those same aircraft on SIN PER SIN?

[dr dre]

Sure, the a321XLR will drive training/recruitment as a lot will be in the training system, as will the a350 as that's in addition to what LH has now. But that training aside, and 12x a350s aside, the remainder of it is just to fill the large retirements.

Taking the info out there on expected retirements at 65, and adding a percentage above for those who leave medically or to other employment before 65, it still leaves about 300 new recruits above what will be needed for the initial A350 and A321X intro through to 2027. Retirement numbers only go back to a high level in 2026, VR cleared them out for the first half of this decade

[Bumble_Pilot]

Hearing the latest 787 courses are being moved day 1 to the 380 on the new B Scale, stopping the current SO’s from moving across and getting the old $$.
surely that’s going to piss off a few…

anyone in the know? Is 380 only SYD base?
Wonder if MEL/PER 787 guys/gals are being forced to move to SYD if this is the case.

[DashTrash.]

The issue is currently before the fair work commission, mainly around the issue of bypass pay for those who could have attained those spots based off their seniority.

Qantas claims they cannot release current SO’s due to current operational requirements but at the same time force those pilots to take leave due to a surplus.

Turns out you can have your cake and eat it too!

[RealSatoshi]

The issue is currently before the fair work commission, mainly around the issue of bypass pay for those who could have attained those spots based off their seniority.

Qantas claims they cannot release current SO’s due to current operational requirements but at the same time force those pilots to take leave due to a surplus.

Turns out you can have your cake and eat it too!
The disregard for employees current and future is palpable - What an absolute DISGRACE :\

[Avi8terdude2023]

Has anyone heard of any course dates starting July onwards? I Interviewed and got my yes last July but no news yet sadly.

[MaxAuto]

I’m sorry I haven’t heard of any courses assigned yet beyond the June one.

I also interview in July last year. If you’d like to keep in touch, send me a message.

cheers.

[On Guard]

Has anyone heard of any course dates starting July onwards? I Interviewed and got my yes last July but no news yet sadly.

Pretty sure they are ongoing. I’ve been told early next year and got a yes in Oct.

[Contigo]

Has anyone heard of any course dates starting July onwards? I Interviewed and got my yes last July but no news yet sadly.
I got the nod in August and still no word for myself. IMO it's definitely some merit based system if there is a chronological aspect to it as well idk but have spoken to some who got on much later than I did and already got start dates so they obviously did quite well in the recruitment process.

[Fujiroll76]

Hearing the latest 787 courses are being moved day 1 to the 380 on the new B Scale, stopping the current SO’s from moving across and getting the old $$.
surely that’s going to piss off a few…

anyone in the know? Is 380 only SYD base?
Wonder if MEL/PER 787 guys/gals are being forced to move to SYD if this is the case.

Gee…
- Forcing SO’s onto LWOP and loosing AL accrual.
- Preventing current SO’s progressing onto the 380 as there’s a overall pilot shortage.
- Assigning AL due to a surplus of pilots. Wtf!
- Changing fleet types to new hires after signing a contract to a B scale.

Thats one way to Pi$$ off the future

[SO4life]

Still no start date for me either, I got on the hold file sometime in August or September. I'm external if that makes a difference.

[ANCDU]

But they are a good company and will look after me for 20 years right? Right?

😂😂😂😂😂😂, Gold.

[dragon man]

But they are a good company and will look after me for 20 years right? Right?


Like your cheque is in the mail and I’m here from the ATO to help you.

[ScepticalOptomist]

But they are a good company and will look after me for 20 years right? Right?

Sadly, still the best gig going in Aus. And they know it.

[aussieflyboy]

Sadly, still the best gig going in Aus. And they know it.

Maybe if you a Captain. I can’t imagine sitting in the back seat for 17 hours earning $100K a year is all that great…

[SandyPalms]

Maybe if you a Captain. I can’t imagine sitting in the back seat for 17 hours earning $100K a year is all that great…

Sure, if you a captain it probably is better, but you can't be that without be a SO first. 17 years though is being a bit dramatic. Maybe that will be reality, but it's not at the moment.

It's all good though, you have a choice, and if it doesn't suit you, you need not apply. Simple.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Maybe if you a Captain. I can’t imagine sitting in the back seat for 17 hours earning $100K a year is all that great…

Choice is a wonderful luxury. Plenty of new hires going straight to FO on the 737.

[sellect]

Has there ever been any direct entry FO recruitment to Qantas or is it ever only SO? Thinking about making the move, but starting as a SO would be a tuff pill to swallow.

[morno]

There’s a chance that you could be offered F/O on the 737 after commencing, possibly even just before starting. However I wouldn’t hang my hat on it.

Otherwise no, you’re an S/O.

[dr dre]

Has there ever been any direct entry FO recruitment to Qantas or is it ever only SO? Thinking about making the move, but starting as a SO would be a tuff pill to swallow.

There's direct entry to F/O, but 737 F/O slots might be available in most bases bar Brisbane very soon after starting, BNE maybe a year or so wait. Melbourne F/O slots were being given out to new hires days after starting a few months ago. They didn't even bother with S/O training.

As long as you're happy with SH then it shouldn't be a long wait for F/O.

[Capn Bloggs]

There's direct entry to F/O
​​​​​​​Typo? "no"?

[sellect]

Thanks for the replies. Are the any sources of up-to-date information regarding T&C, payscales etc, the info on ppjn seems rather dated?

[WillieTheWimp]

Has there ever been any direct entry FO recruitment to Qantas or is it ever only SO? Thinking about making the move, but starting as a SO would be a tuff pill to swallow.
Curious why it is a tough pill to swallow. The Second Officer is all care and no responsibility. Get a hobby and go to work as little as possible. Lifestyle will ultimately outweigh which seat you sit in. But like everyone else is saying, the FO upgrade is fairly quick, at which point you will be earning on par with other narrow-body Captains in Australia. Otherwise, you can go work for a subsidiary and learn the hard way.

[dr dre]

Thanks for the replies. Are the any sources of up-to-date information regarding T&C, payscales etc, the info on ppjn seems rather dated?

Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020 (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/download/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC80L2FlNTA3ODU1LnBkZg2)

Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Short Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020 (EBA8) (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/download/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC8yL2FlNTA3MTI2LnBkZg2)

There’s several hundred pages for you to wade through. Just remember the pay rates for SH are a little misleading, those numbers are based on 53.4 hours per BP (28 days), when in reality the average hours rostered per BP is more like 65-70, and the ability to go higher if you choose.

[aussieflyboy]

Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020 (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/download/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC80L2FlNTA3ODU1LnBkZg2)

Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Short Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020 (EBA8) (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/download/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC8yL2FlNTA3MTI2LnBkZg2)

There’s several hundred pages for you to wade through. Just remember the pay rates for SH are a little misleading, those numbers are based on 53.4 hours per BP (28 days), when in reality the average hours rostered per BP is more like 65-70, and the ability to go higher if you choose.

Why would you want to work more than 50 hours in 28 days!? The idea is to work less not more!

[Australopithecus]

You don’t get much of a choice on how little you wish to be scheduled to work-rosters get built at the divisor for the fleet. When you are junior in the rotating seniority (737) you will work circa 18/28 days. When senior you may be able to fly just under half of the 28 days.

Something tells me however that down the road the company will find a way to coerce recent hires onto the A220 for **** pay.

[aussieflyboy]

You don’t get much of a choice on how little you wish to be scheduled to work-rosters get built at the divisor for the fleet. When you are junior in the rotating seniority (737) you will work circa 18/28 days. When senior you may be able to fly just under half of the 28 days.

Something tells me however that down the road the company will find a way to coerce recent hires onto the A220 for **** pay.

Looks like a new start A220 FO will get paid $1,705 per tonne and an A320XLR FO will get paid $1,440 per tonne.

Or you could say an A320 pilot with Qantas will only be paid $20K a year more to operate an aircraft that is 30% bigger. Is the Qantas contract considered mainline or the NJS one mainline?


A220s seem to be painted with Qantas not QantasLink…


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/639x480/25c51455_b40d_49e3_8840_f6dfcae5df87_a3bcb12f321f3d25c91a9b6 272fbfb5a35ac41ef.jpeg

[dr dre]

Or you could say an A320 pilot with Qantas will only be paid $20K a year more to operate an aircraft that is 30% bigger.


Only on min guarantee. Rostered hours always 65-70 per month. It'll be $80-100k more at the end of the day.


Why would you want to work more than 50 hours in 28 days!? The idea is to work less not more!


That's only 575 flying hours in a year, I think it's expected an airline pilot will have to work more than that. With a low minimum guarantee the SH contract gives you flexibility to drop flying and take more time off.

[PPRuNeUser01531]

Early nineties I knew a "Senior" SO on the QF 744. Yeah, talk about all care and no responsibility. He had a grin from ear to ear every time I saw him. Wasn't interested in upgrading and had a successful car yard with his brother. Apart from volunteering to do the walkaround in the rain, staring out front in the cruise and putting charts away, he did SFA. A niggly captain once reported him for not spending enough time in the cockpit. Not hard to guess where he was and who he was trying to impress. Anyways, long time ago......guess characters like him don't slip through the cracks anymore.

[dragon man]

Early nineties I knew a "Senior" SO on the QF 744. Yeah, talk about all care and no responsibility. He had a grin from ear to ear every time I saw him. Wasn't interested in upgrading and had a successful car yard with his brother. Apart from volunteering to do the walkaround in the rain, staring out front in the cruise and putting charts away, he did SFA. A niggly captain once reported him for not spending enough time in the cockpit. Not hard to guess where he was and who he was trying to impress. Anyways, long time ago......guess characters like him don't slip through the cracks anymore.

And good luck to him the system was about allowing YOU to control your career and life not Qantas.

[aussieflyboy]

Only on min guarantee. Rostered hours always 65-70 per month. It'll be $80-100k more at the end of the day.



That's only 575 flying hours in a year, I think it's expected an airline pilot will have to work more than that. With a low minimum guarantee the SH contract gives you flexibility to drop flying and take more time off.

Are NJS Pilots working the same sort of hours?

Perhaps these 2 “mainline” gigs are chalk and cheese and the remuneration reflects that. Ie: QF SH get paid more over a year but are working hard for it whereas the NJS Bin Chickens get paid less (albeit not tonne vs $) but spend a lot of time relaxing at home?

I assume it depends on where your based also.

[Makiko]

So its completely fair & reasonable for the over 45 year old & over 55 year old brigade to remain SOs decade in / decade out
On the year 12 payscale
& effectively block any new joiners from ever getting an SO seat on the A380 whilst they enjoy $350K plus salaries
That's fair , just and reasonable behaviour ? , and also that is how you run a good commercial airline business is it ?

Aren't there a ton of Ansett 2001 joiners who are still SOing ?

Interesting chappies

But I guess in many ways , we as Aussies are an interesting species

We think we are oh so superior , but the reality is that we ain't the sharpest tools in the shed & are just a little bit off the pace

[dr dre]

Are NJS Pilots working the same sort of hours?

Perhaps these 2 “mainline” gigs are chalk and cheese and the remuneration reflects that. Ie: QF SH get paid more over a year but are working hard for it whereas the NJS Bin Chickens get paid less (albeit not tonne vs $) but spend a lot of time relaxing at home?

NJS rates are Yr 1 FO $143 ph for 65hrs before overtime kicks in. QF 53.4hrs for $209 ph. At 65hrs it's almost 70% more than NJS.

As to what the actual hours each group are working I'm not sure, but I can't imagine too many airlines aren't rostering pilots substantially below maximum hours.

​​​​​​​I assume it depends on where your based also.

QF roster average hours are balanced between bases. The nature of the flying out of each base ebbs and flows but rostered hours are roughly the same.

[TinFoilhat2]

So its completely fair & reasonable for the over 45 year old & over 55 year old brigade to remain SOs decade in / decade out
On the year 12 payscale
& effectively block any new joiners from ever getting an SO seat on the A380 whilst they enjoy $350K plus salaries
That's fair , just and reasonable behaviour ? , and also that is how you run a good commercial airline business is it ?

Aren't there a ton of Ansett 2001 joiners who are still SOing ?

Interesting chappies

But I guess in many ways , we as Aussies are an interesting species

We think we are oh so superior , but the reality is that we ain't the sharpest tools in the shed & are just a little bit off the pace

Seems they are just playing the seniority system to their advantage, a system QF and many airlines around the world put in place to benefit themselves.

Dont cry now when said pilot follows the same rules and decide to take it easy and have outside interests that make money as well.

As somebody famously once said, ‘Hate the game not the player’

[Jetsbest]

As far as HR are concerned, a pilot is just a licensed body in a seat. Seniority serves the corporation more than the individual; pilots are less ‘portable’ to higher-paying jobs in other companies & ‘the market’ is artificially capped/skewed.

So if, while working under a seniority system, an individual defers promotion for any reason like:
- they’re building a house,
- their partner has cancer,
- a child has special needs,
- they need to commute interstate while caring for aging parents,
- they like the fleet they’re already on,
- the work/life balance is their best compromise, or
- the pay is tolerable…..

​​​​​…..why do some infer it’s just laziness/rorting?…. & their ‘inspired’ solution is apparently to pay SOs less.:rolleyes: In most companies SOs don’t exist. In most companies, ULH flying is done by multi-Capt & multi-FO crews. Most QF SOs would be FOs in any other company.

…And enough of the hyperbole please​​​​​ ​​effectively block any new joiners from ever getting an SO seat on the A380🤔

All pilots join & are obliged to retain a Class 1 medical & appropriate ratings for their job. Thereafter, their career choices are framed by the EA (& seniority system) under which they work. IT’S FAIR! Some aspire to, and achieve, rapid promotion by being portable to other cities or ‘less-desirable’ fleets. Others simply compromise in order to balance life’s competing priorities.

There endeth the lesson.😊

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

So its completely fair & reasonable for the over 45 year old & over 55 year old brigade to remain SOs decade in / decade out
On the year 12 payscale
& effectively block any new joiners from ever getting an SO seat on the A380

1. They don’t owe new joiners a 380 seat.
2. By staying as SOs, they’re leaving FO and command slots open for people who would otherwise have to wait longer for them.

Good for everyone, except a new joiner who feels entitled to a 380 SO spot.

[Fujiroll76]

Why would anyone want to join onto the 380 these days. Rest assured you’ll still be splitting the bill after your 2 beers and a salad. Don’t be fooled, the person sitting next to you in the back will be on more than double your B scale salary.

787 is the only fleet that wages haven’t been pineappled for new joiners…yet that ship looks to have sailed.

[davidclarke]

Why would anyone want to join onto the 380 these days. Rest assured you’ll still be splitting the bill after your 2 beers and a salad. Don’t be fooled, the person sitting next to you in the back will be on more than double your B scale salary.

787 is the only fleet that wages haven’t been pineappled for new joiners…yet that ship looks to have sailed.

And the person sitting next to you is the one who decided that it was ok for his/her future colleagues to earn half of them……..that going to lead to some interesting flight deck conversations……kind of ironic considering the amount of times the mainline pilots have referred to the subsidiaries as Sc@bs.

[cLeArIcE]

Why would anyone want to join onto the 380 these days. Rest assured you’ll still be splitting the bill after your 2 beers and a salad. Don’t be fooled, the person sitting next to you in the back will be on more than double your B scale salary.

787 is the only fleet that wages haven’t been pineappled for new joiners…yet that ship looks to have sailed.
The problem is that despite all of this, it's still a better place to work than NJS, Network or Jetstar.
I can't comment in detail on NJS or Network but, Im not sure if financially it makes a huge difference having a career at QF or JQ. (considering quicker upgrades times etc.) But for that money at JQ you'll work tens times harder, be treated like a dog, receive no respect and have to manage with zero operational support from the company on a daily basis.
All this stuff matters to people. QF might not be a great job these days but it's still better than the rest of the group.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

As far as HR are concerned, a pilot is just a licensed body in a seat.

And yet the ONLY people require to hold any form of qualifications in aviation are pilots and engineers. Every other cohort in the industry, all the way up to the CEO, can rock up and have a crack as long as they can talk someone into appointing them. Pilots (and engineers) actually have to qualify under the law to ply their trade…HR needs to be reminded of this.

[Jetsbest]

And the person sitting next to you is the one who decided that it was ok for his/her future colleagues to earn half of them……..that going to lead to some interesting flight deck conversations……kind of ironic considering the amount of times the mainline pilots have referred to the subsidiaries as Sc@bs.

Never let facts (industrial threats & thuggery, a vote of +1200 pilots, Covid, etc) get in the way of a bitter misrepresentation of the choices available to current or future employees…. & how many mainline pilots do you actually know? Ugh😖

[ScepticalOptomist]

.
QF might not be a great job these days...

Nah, it’s still a great job. :ok:

We’re still getting plenty of subsidiaries Captains still coming over as SOs - that speaks volumes.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Nah, it’s still a great job. :ok:

We’re still getting plenty of subsidiaries Captains still coming over as SOs - that speaks volumes.

And for every one you get, there are 10 times that many who will probably never be released by their respective subsidiaries. The only way out for these guys and girls is to leave the group completely, and in the case of NJS, with shiny new A220 endorsement in hand.

[RENURPP]

NJS rates are Yr 1 FO $143 ph for 65hrs before overtime kicks in. QF 53.4hrs for $209 ph. At 65hrs it's almost 70% more than NJS.

As to what the actual hours each group are working I'm not sure, but I can't imagine too many airlines aren't rostering pilots substantially below maximum hours.



QF roster average hours are balanced between bases. The nature of the flying out of each base ebbs and flows but rostered hours are roughly the same.
Brisbane based 717 captain, haven't flown more than 40hrs a month for since COVID.
I suspect that will change in a year or so.

[aussieflyboy]

Brisbane based 717 captain, haven't flown more than 40hrs a month for since COVID.
I suspect that will change in a year or so.

So basically if you’re a family man/lady/other and want to be home most* nights then you’re better off working for NJS and getting a quick or DE CMD and $200K a year rather then working for shorthaul and working your ring off and getting average $180K a year (sometime less, sometimes more).

I’d bet money on it that if NJS pilots don’t have the company support now they will once the new toy comes along so there won’t be much difference from that point of view.

The Shorthaul EA is confusing but can they say no to roster changes a week before? Looks like NJS pilots can so that’s a big benefit from a family point of view.

[SandyPalms]

There is value in being a LongHaul International Airline Pilot, and only Qantas Mainline gives you the Choice (i know Jetstar have 787’s but to get there is virtually impossible). I know many will say they don’t care, but they are also the ones that say they will get experience and then go to emirates/Qatar etc………

If you don’t want to be a SO, you can still go to QF, clench your teeth and enjoy the experience until you can go to SH and be home every night. Then, in 15 years when the kids couldn’t give a rats if you’re there or not anymore, you can go to LH and enjoy the perks of that lifestyle. With the other outfits, you can’t. Pretty simple. Best of luck.

[LostontheLOC]

Nah, it’s still a great job. :ok:

We’re still getting plenty of subsidiaries Captains still coming over as SOs - that speaks volumes.

I think you misunderstanding the point here - being a Qantas So is better than being a subsidiary CPT, that speaks volumes about being in the subsidiaries in Australia, but be under no illusion that Qantas has been third rate for a long time.

[Brakerider]

To summarise

Qantas is ****, but the least **** in Aus.

[soseg]

So basically if you’re a family man/lady/other and want to be home most* nights then you’re better off working for NJS and getting a quick or DE CMD and $200K a year rather then working for shorthaul and working your ring off and getting average $180K a year (sometime less, sometimes more).

I’d bet money on it that if NJS pilots don’t have the company support now they will once the new toy comes along so there won’t be much difference from that point of view.

The Shorthaul EA is confusing but can they say no to roster changes a week before? Looks like NJS pilots can so that’s a big benefit from a family point of view.

The SH FO average wage for FY2019 was 199k. I’ll bet that’s gone up this FY with the pay rises since then.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

So basically if you’re a family man/lady/other and want to be home most* nights then you’re better off working for NJS

Ummmmm, not quite. From what I’m told the crew are away a LOT, upwards of 10 overnights per month, some as high as 14. Min days off at home, then you’re away again. Worse than long haul lifestyle on worse than short haul conditions. Not very family friendly.

[Makiko]

BR perhaps you could highlight with particularity what elements of the 350 page LH contract are as you say "****" (is it the $500 daily cash allowance in London that might be causing such angst, I wonder)
& Same for SH contract - the 53.5 monthly mins sound particularly oppressive . Is it the six months of "holiday" guys often get when they do an upgrade (particularly WB)

Perhaps you could mention any pax carriers that have a better deal ?

This could be enlightening & important information for chaps & chapettes as may wish to apply for employ there ?

Just brush up on your language skills folks & I am sure Fritz & Pierre , will just say "come on down" to Aussie EU passport holders

I would think only Lufthansa, perhaps KLM & Air France - might come anywhere within a bulls roar . & AF well its economically a basket case for decades isn't it , just propped up by French govt

& first two will only work if you join as real young-un straight out of HS or Uni I would think

But I here you tell us about these wonderful opportunities in USA with the megabucks

But to be put fully in the picture , we need to look at all the facts

Let's imagine for a moment the life of a US Pilot , done 30 to 35 years

He had a good run 1990s , the furlough of perhaps 5 to 15 years due 2001 & GFC . & he may well have lost his entire pensions (United certainly did ) when his airline entered chapter 11

This could be a trivia question . In what USA Airlines did the pilots lose all of their pensions this century , as we know United , American , Delta all filed chapter 11 bankruptcy

Then we could perhaps ask another question , in what year did the pilot wages of the big 3 - again become equal to QF mainline

Its my idea so I nominate myself to go first - I say the year of our lord 2014

Remember also WB low seniority in USA (& you can get assigned to it as a direct hire) , must be ready to enjoy perhaps up to several years of permanent reserve

This would perhaps be a little too much for the sweet boys of Aust & NZ you might think

All that glitters it not gold

[aussieflyboy]

Ummmmm, not quite. From what I’m told the crew are away a LOT, upwards of 10 overnights per month, some as high as 14. Min days off at home, then you’re away again. Worse than long haul lifestyle on worse than short haul conditions. Not very family friendly.

I’ve since been informed this is very Base dependent with NJS. Melbourne getting a lot of overnights and significantly more hours than Brisbane/Canberra. Overnights with QF SH appear to be averaged out across the Bases and they have a better roster bidding system.

NJS are always going to be on worse conditions than QF SH as they are operating a smaller aircraft (although it’s good to see them striving for better!).

If one was to go with QF SH is my roster fixed a week or so out? Ie: can I pick the kids up from school if I’m rostered a 9am sign on/2pm sign off (ignoring potential delays ect) or can things just be changed whenever?

[JamieMaree]

I’ve since been informed this is very Base dependent with NJS. Melbourne getting a lot of overnights and significantly more hours than Brisbane/Canberra. Overnights with QF SH appear to be averaged out across the Bases and they have a better roster bidding system.

NJS are always going to be on worse conditions than QF SH as they are operating a smaller aircraft (although it’s good to seem them striving for better!).

If one was to go with QF SH is my roster fixed a week or so out? Ie: can I pick the kids up from school if I’m rostered a 9am sign on/2pm sign off (ignoring potential delays ect) or can things just be changed whenever?


I am hopeful that Qf is not stupid enough to employ you.
You would be a PIA. From day 1.

[aussieflyboy]

I am hopeful that Qf is not stupid enough to employ you.
You would be a PIA. From day 1.

Is it a ridiculous concept to a Qantas Pilot to want to organise their family life? Or do you folks just bend over to the company’s needs?

This is a QF Recruitment thread so it’s a reasonable discussion to determine the type of job that QF offers especially considering the opportunities on offer from others around (many of whom are offering a better overall deal)

[gordonfvckingramsay]

.You would be a PIA. From day 1.

I imagine you’re right. Corporate Australia has been engaging in industrial action for a few decades, time for a reversal.

Do you have a reasonable argument against fair pay and conditions????

[dr dre]

The SH FO average wage for FY2019 was 199k. I’ll bet that’s gone up this FY with the pay rises since then.

Hourly rate has gone up 12% since then, and that's without bonus or allowances. Can add 9% for the bonus at least this year and 15-20k allowances. Plus that's the average, so if you want even more then feel free to work more.

[dr dre]

If one was to go with QF SH is my roster fixed a week or so out? Ie: can I pick the kids up from school if I’m rostered a 9am sign on/2pm sign off (ignoring potential delays ect) or can things just be changed whenever?

It's pretty much fixed from roster release. On day of ops they may get you to extend and operate more sectors, but that's rare. Low minimum guarantee means you can drop work easily and get more time off, or pickup trips for more $$ if you desire.

[maggot]

Yeah extra sectors does happen but not often ime. The catch for school kids etc is more likely operational delays getting home reliably on time. A solid backup is needed, time to spare - go by air...

[cloudsurfng]

Are we saying, There is a genuine chance that mainline could be shut down and all flying moved to other groups? Well SH at least?

based on the revised training vacancies, I don’t think SH is going anywhere…..

[Fujiroll76]

based on the revised training vacancies, I don’t think SH is going anywhere…..

Looks like someone stuffed the figures on version 1.

737 FO year 1 - 250k seem reasonable (base, allowance, bonus) ??

[Engine Nacelle]

Roughly how long would it be for a newbie to have seniority for a BNE narrow body F/O slot?

[MaxAuto]

What were the proposed training vacancies?

[dr dre]

Roughly how long would it be for a newbie to have seniority for a BNE narrow body F/O slot?

It won’t be long at all, it was less than 2 years pre-Covid. As the next rounds of recruitment occur it should be the same or less. Other bases will be shorter.

[Sparrows.]

What were the proposed training vacancies?

A380 CPT x12
B787 CPT x8
A330 CPT x20
B737 CPT x42

A380 FO x18
B787 FO x5
A330 FO x15
B737 FO x35

[MaxAuto]

Thanks very much, that should create some movement.

Has there been any word on new hire courses having been filled beyond June?

[dr dre]

Do these revised training vacancies have anything to do with the failed takeover of alliance? Two days after this news broke the number of mainline command vacancies jumps up by 64%. Coincidence I’m sure.

Nah it is a coincidence. Anyone who knows how the internal machinations of how this major corporation works knows that slots in one part of the group don’t appear that fast after an ACCC announcement.

The numbers that have been spoken about for quite some time about the next training year would indicate that the published vacancies are not even half of the total numbers that will be trained over the next year, there’ll be even more residual vacancies.

No those numbers are just to maintain the current level of flying plus whatever aircraft are coming back over the next year.

[Fujiroll76]

Nah it is a coincidence. Anyone who knows how the internal machinations of how this major corporation works knows that slots in one part of the group don’t appear that fast after an ACCC announcement.

The numbers that have been spoken about for quite some time about the next training year would indicate that the published vacancies are not even half of the total numbers that will be trained over the next year, there’ll be even more residual vacancies.

No those numbers are just to maintain the current level of flying plus whatever aircraft are coming back over the next year.

Then why weren’t they published in version 1 🤔

[ScepticalOptomist]

Given the choice of why something happens at QF - F@#k Up vs conspiracy - I’d pick the first every time!

[dr dre]

Then why weren’t they published in version 1 🤔

Makes for a good conspiracy doesn't it....... ;)

Either way it can only be good news for mainline. Should be plenty of opportunities for those joining in the near future.

[morno]

Given the choice of why something happens at QF - F@#k Up vs conspiracy - I’d pick the first every time!

Most accurate post ever :D

[cloudsurfng]

Do these revised training vacancies have anything to do with the failed takeover of alliance? Two days after this news broke the number of mainline command vacancies jumps up by 64%. Coincidence I’m sure.


nah, they can still wet lease

[maggot]

Going to be a ton of 737 FO spots for whomever wants

[ScepticalOptomist]

Going to be a busy training year. :ok:

[Fujiroll76]

Going to be a ton of 737 FO spots for whomever wants

100 + with consequential vacancies.
All bases on offer. (Maybe not ADL)

Assume many SYD SO commuters will be getting a look into Brissy. Are there many SYD 737 FO’s still waiting?

[aussieflyboy]

Subsidiary training busy too:


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/932x1162/img_2868_3d6d22230e780f60643c76d52f2e962c2b034527.jpeg

[Gooffie]

Haven’t heard of anyone getting dates beyond June. Are you also part of the July/Aug/Sept 2022 interview group? Seems as if there’s a bunch of us in this group without confirmed dates🤷🏼‍♂️ I can only speculate from mates in the system there saying training bottlenecks from internal fleet movement slowed external SO intakes between March and July. Rumour is it’ll ramp up again from July. 🤞 let me know if ya hear anything and I’ll do the same👍

Thanks very much, that should create some movement.

Has there been any word on new hire courses having been filled beyond June?

[Icarus2001]

Sixteen pilots for ASP?

[Capn Bloggs]

Shute Harbour! Where do I sign? Gravel Kit, BIG donks for 1400m. Let's do it. VH-WUA.

[dr dre]

Shute Harbour! Where do I sign? Gravel Kit, BIG donks for 1400m. Let's do it. VH-WUA.

And a base for an airport which is 3 years away from existing......

[MaxAuto]

Haven’t heard of anyone getting dates beyond June. Are you also part of the July/Aug/Sept 2022 interview group? Seems as if there’s a bunch of us in this group without confirmed dates🤷🏼‍♂️ I can only speculate from mates in the system there saying training bottlenecks from internal fleet movement slowed external SO intakes between March and July. Rumour is it’ll ramp up again from July. 🤞 let me know if ya hear anything and I’ll do the same👍


Thanks for the info, I tried to send you a message but it says the inbox is full.

[High_To_Low]

B737 FO positions will be offered to those employed post COVID in all bases (except ADL/PER)

[Icarus2001]

B737 FO positions will go south of those employed post COVID in all bases (except ADL/PER) Once more in English please?

[maggot]

Once more in English please?

East coast 737 FO spots for anyone that wants one pretty much

[The Love Doctor]

East coast 737 FO spots for anyone that wants one pretty much
Yeh f**ck that.

[maggot]

Yeh f**ck that.

Works well for many and pays better

[cLeArIcE]

Be interesting to see how many successful QF group applicants are keen to go straight on the 737 after years of getting flogged up and down the east coast at their subsidiary.

[High_To_Low]

I’d say new hires would still only be offered SYD/MEL.

BNE I dare say will go as junior as those who have been employed in 2022

[romeocharlie]

I’d say new hires would still only be offered SYD/MEL.

BNE I dare say will go as junior as those who have been employed in 2022

The last 73 Brisbane slot went to someone circa late 1800's in seniority in this training year. - what are we up to now? 2700? Even if you take out all the JQ numbers, you're talking 19 FO slots (plus a few residuals) for 500 (ish) pilots.

I'll be happy to throw down $100 that it won't go past people employed pre-covid.

[High_To_Low]

Prior to that it went to crew in the 2200’s…it’s all dynamic.
Now with a 4 year training freeze and with the forecast movement in the next 5 years crew are being very strategic with bids and today’s B787/A330 SO’s most likely to be in contention for A330 FO slots…

[Red69]

If QF have FO slots for new joiners in BNE, they’ll have 100’s of experienced/rated 737 drivers from VA apply. VA is full of unhappy commuters with the only slots on offer there Syd/Mel/Adl. QF sounds like the place to be with the base and fleet options available.

[Brakerider]

If QF have FO slots for new joiners in BNE, they’ll have 100’s of experienced/rated 737 drivers from VA apply. VA is full of unhappy commuters with the only slots on offer there Syd/Mel/Adl. QF sounds like the place to be with the base and fleet options available.

I don't think new joiners will ever get BNE, but it won't be a 5-10 year wait like days gone by.

[dejapoo]

Works well for many and pays better

$250k, 800 hours, wifi, days go quick, kids don't forget me. Each to their own I guess.

[romeocharlie]

Prior to that it went to crew in the 2200’s…it’s all dynamic.
Now with a 4 year training freeze and with the forecast movement in the next 5 years crew are being very strategic with bids and today’s B787/A330 SO’s most likely to be in contention for A330 FO slots…

Should be an easy $100 for you then. PM me and I'll happily put it down.

[Fujiroll76]

There is no chance any BNE 737 FO slots will go to new joiners or those who joined pre COVID (2022)

330 FO will go low and will capture 2017 joiners.

If you’re a Sydney SO commuter, BNE won’t be back filled onto the 787. So plan B…wait

[Stu_89]

Hello,
where have new SO recruits been training recently?
In the melb/bne training centre, or overseas? Thx

[morno]

Depends entirely on availability etc.

A330 is in either Melbourne or Singapore at the moment.

[Chad Gates]

Depends entirely on availability etc.

A330 is in either Melbourne or Singapore at the moment.
Fiji next

[dejapoo]

And Saunapore on the 380 for new SO's. Dallas if you win the first week (as some may say who really wouldn't have a clue) 737 booby prize (light twin).

[Contigo]

Anyone heard of any new course dates for externals?

[Gooffie]

Anyone heard of any new course dates for externals?
nothing from my side. Couple private messages saying the same thing. Hopefully start dates before end of the year. HR say the same thing to you during interview thatll it’ll be 1st quarter 2023? 😂

[On Guard]

nothing from my side. Couple private messages saying the same thing. Hopefully start dates before end of the year. HR say the same thing to you during interview thatll it’ll be 1st quarter 2023? 😂

When did you guys get the yes? I was Oct.

[abaderrr]

As an internal, received a 2025 start. They can pound sand.

[Gooffie]

As an internal, received a 2025 start. They can pound sand.

When did you guys get the yes? I was Oct.
End of August

[cLeArIcE]

As an internal, received a 2025 start. They can pound sand.
2025? You can't be serious? WTF... Can I ask what entity you work for?

[Gunner747400]

2025? You can't be serious? WTF... Can I ask what entity you work for?
It's not an outlier either. Heard of heaps of people getting as late as Q4 '25. Yet they claim it is all based on merit... Yeah right.

Anyways, most have applied to Virgin, and will probably get back into mainline quicker.

[Going Nowhere]

It's not an outlier either. Heard of heaps of people getting as late as Q4 '25. Yet they claim it is all based on merit... Yeah right.

Anyways, most have applied to Virgin, and will probably get back into mainline quicker.

It appears even those who are next in line for a command at QLink would rather leave for VA and others than stick around.

[abaderrr]

2025? You can't be serious? WTF... Can I ask what entity you work for?

Qlink

[Stu_89]

It's not an outlier either. Heard of heaps of people getting as late as Q4 '25. Yet they claim it is all based on merit... Yeah right.

Anyways, most have applied to Virgin, and will probably get back into mainline quicker.

va is toxic…stay where u are

[Contigo]

When did you guys get the yes? I was Oct.


Mid Sept sent an email asking and was told unlikely to get a 2023 start.

[HotelUniformYankee]

I know of someone who got the yes in November and starting this month or next.

[major_tom]

It's not an outlier either. Heard of heaps of people getting as late as Q4 '25. Yet they claim it is all based on merit... Yeah right.

Anyways, most have applied to Virgin, and will probably get back into mainline quicker.

Merit... yeah right.... I'd say with the most recent release, it was who had the brownest nose or was the squeakiest wheel :(

Want to move across quickest? Be the biggest pain the butt... or simply kiss the most butt.

[hillbillybob]

Merit... yeah right.... I'd say with the most recent release, it was who had the brownest nose or was the squeakiest wheel :(

Want to move across quickest? Be the biggest pain the butt... or simply kiss the most butt.

I’m sure you will happy to discuss this with the people concerned to their face eh

[Fujiroll76]

Qantas have no idea what’s happening next month let alone 2025 and beyond. The revision in training vacancies proved that.

Qlink have you by the balls regardless. There’s no reason for them to let you go any sooner whilst an exodus is slowly starting to happen. A small but insignificant carrot can be dangled with a “MAINLINE START DATE” but all that causes is a shift in an already sub par morale, when those with years of service get pushed aside for those who brownnose their way to the earlier start.

The one thing that they can’t control is the move to VA, personally it’s a no brainer for those who have been unsuccessful with QF.

If you’re on the hold and waiting for dates, there’s nothing you can do. It’s not like your waiting for the golden ticket. You’re joining a seniority list at the bottom - potentially after many years working within the group. On a B scale contract earning less than what you’re now with the hopes of getting a command again is slim.

[Slippery_Pete]

If your ultimate goal is to work at mainline, join a Qantas subsidiary and you’ll just c*ck-block yourself.

Has been happening for years, and now the shortage is biting, it’s only going to get worse. I know someone on the internal hold who has been waiting overt 5 years now.

Don’t take a subsidiary job at QLink or NJS. Just go to Rex and you’ll walk straight in to mainline.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I know someone on the internal hold who has been waiting overt 5 years now.

A position on the hold file has never guaranteed a start date. As better candidates are placed in the hold file, you may find they are offered start dates ahead of you.

5yrs may be a sign they aren’t very competitive. I don’t believe the subsidiaries are holding anyone for that long. No one is that valuable to them?

[soseg]

Qantas have no idea what’s happening next month let alone 2025 and beyond. The revision in training vacancies proved that.

Qlink have you by the balls regardless. There’s no reason for them to let you go any sooner whilst an exodus is slowly starting to happen. A small but insignificant carrot can be dangled with a “MAINLINE START DATE” but all that causes is a shift in an already sub par morale, when those with years of service get pushed aside for those who brownnose their way to the earlier start.

The one thing that they can’t control is the move to VA, personally it’s a no brainer for those who have been unsuccessful with QF.

If you’re on the hold and waiting for dates, there’s nothing you can do. It’s not like your waiting for the golden ticket. You’re joining a seniority list at the bottom - potentially after many years working within the group. On a B scale contract earning less than what you’re now with the hopes of getting a command again is slim.

If you're a skipper in a subsidiary, yeah sure, you will earn less as an SO. What's a Dash8 skipper earn? Can't be a massive decrease (or at all) to move across to 787 SO?

Any FO in any subsidiary will earn the same if not more if they move across to a QF SO position. JQ might be a small pay drop but you'll be working 1/2 to 1/3 as hard.

[Going Nowhere]

If you're a skipper in a subsidiary, yeah sure, you will earn less as an SO. What's a Dash8 skipper earn? Can't be a massive decrease (or at all) to move across to 787 SO?

Any FO in any subsidiary will earn the same if not more if they move across to a QF SO position. JQ might be a small pay drop but you'll be working 1/2 to 1/3 as hard.

Those heading to or interested in VA are going partly because they’re sick of only getting 8 days off a roster along with the ever-dwindling lifestyle.

[Passthepopcorn]

Is your start date 2025?

[On Guard]

I know of someone who got the yes in November and starting this month or next.

What fleet? Were they external?

[HotelUniformYankee]

What fleet? Were they external?
Not sure on fleet but was external.

[Makiko]

Why would someone on a hold file be given a seniority number ?

If Qlink to mainline is done on "merit" just means those who start latest scored lowest in test/interview

Easy to blame others , talk about "its brown nosing" all some kind of a conspiracy by the company

Than accept personal responsibility for you own performance & own score

The fact that you might be starting Q4 2025 because you got really very average scores & thus ranking

That you will be 100s below other QF link guys on seniority & career earnings will be lower - based on your scored performance in both testing & interview

Don't you think QF would have themselves covered off in this regard , to protect themselves against those who might get on the blower to Solicitor

Keep in mind only about 25% of externals got a test & they then had to get 4/5 to proceed (not 1/5 for internals) & then also had to do a sim

Goodness me what whining Princesses - "there is just no respect" , boo hoo hoo

If you had to compete on open footing with externals the majority would have got smoked

[DashTrash.]

Why would someone on a hold file be given a seniority number ?

If Qlink to mainline is done on "merit" just means those who start latest scored lowest in test/interview

Easy to blame others , talk about "its brown nosing" all some kind of a conspiracy by the company

Than accept personal responsibility for you own performance & own score

The fact that you might be starting Q4 2025 because you got really very average scores & thus ranking

That you will be 100s below other QF link guys on seniority & career earnings will be lower - based on your scored performance in both testing & interview

Don't you think QF would have themselves covered off in this regard , to protect themselves against those who might get on the blower to Solicitor

Keep in mind only about 25% of externals got a test & they then had to get 4/5 to proceed (not 1/5 for internals) & then also had to do a sim

Goodness me what whining Princesses - "there is just no respect" , boo hoo hoo

If you had to compete on open footing with externals the majority would have got smoked

Champ QF recruiting does not rank applicants internally, they either pass the selection screening or they don’t. We do apply criteria when we filter applicants who are externals at the start. (I.e. last round we favoured externals with heavy jet time returning expats etc.)

what does happen when internals are successful is they get placed on the hold file and need to be released by their subsidiary. This is when guys n girls get bypassed by more junior colleagues or get held back because they are hard to replace. This is where an increasing distrust and disengagement from our pilot cohort is emerging.

edit: by allocating a seniority number early a persons career would not suffer if they were held back

your argument above is not correct.

dashtrash.

[TimmyTee]

Just to confirm, you are on the QF recruitment team, and when hiring interals, there hasn't been or isn't any ranking of successful applicants?

[Makiko]

You would be the one that is 100% incorrect

In 2022 there was a different standard applied for internals - which was effectively "no standard" with regard aptitude
if you got 1/5 still got interview , same standard of 4/5 applied in the 2016 & 2018 intakes equally to externals & internals

2018 ; All internals got test only 25% of internals did - same for 2022 - 75% of externals didn't even get to compete

So a ton of internal 1/5 scorers attended mainline interviews & got on various hold files to move to mainline

They didn't even get the required score to get a job with their own subsidiary which is 3/5

So if I was an internal and got the mighty 1/5 & turned up at QF mainline & said "Wheres me job ?" & managed to get on the Hold file
I would be pretty happy . Have to look in the mirror & understand that you wouldn't have had a snowflakes chance in hell competing on the "open market"

Clearly their are two different standards for mainline entry , externals much higher performance required & more elements

Don't you know anyone on the mainline interview panel , they were getting sick of subsidiary pilots turning up with 1/5 & lousy attitudes & average employee
performance at subsid - still had to hire them

[DashTrash.]

You would be the one that is 100% incorrect

In 2022 there was a different standard applied for internals - which was effectively "no standard" with regard aptitude
if you got 1/5 still got interview , same standard of 4/5 applied in the 2016 & 2018 intakes equally to externals & internals

2018 ; All internals got test only 25% of internals did - same for 2022 - 75% of externals didn't even get to compete

So a ton of internal 1/5 scorers attended mainline interviews & got on various hold files to move to mainline

They didn't even get the required score to get a job with their own subsidiary which is 3/5

So if I was an internal and got the mighty 1/5 & turned up at QF mainline & said "Wheres me job ?" & managed to get on the Hold file
I would be pretty happy . Have to look in the mirror & understand that you wouldn't have had a snowflakes chance in hell competing on the "open market"

Clearly their are two different standards for mainline entry , externals much higher performance required & more elements

Don't you know anyone on the mainline interview panel , they were getting sick of subsidiary pilots turning up with 1/5 & lousy attitudes & average employee
performance at subsid - still had to hire them

Mate, Aviation isn’t fair, sometimes you win some. Sometimes you lose some. If you got knocked back and have an axe to grind, I get it that sucks but you got to move on. Only your career will suffer for it!

I can guarantee all applicants are held to the same standard regardless of external or internal candidates and no one gives a toss after day one of induction where you came from.

When accessing a candidate however, Internal candidates can provide a lot more information due to HR already having access to their initial testing. Work record and sim profile. And there’s no reason someone who passed their interview the first time can’t pass again. Especially considering in most instances it is the same interview and as what is being done now.

to answer the other dudes question, we may have ranked internals in the past but definitely have not ranked in the last 7 years. Any ********ery you have experienced is mainly due to your own subsidiary.

Dashtrash.

[A320 Flyer]

Is this a recruitment thread or a lesson in fractions….. you’re making no sense….

I know for sure that internals get held back and released when the subsidiary can afford to let them go, which is essentially never these days.

[Makiko]

I don't care if the internals get negative scores & externals have to get 6/5

QF can do what they like & never hire an external again, wouldn't seem particularly fair to ADF Pilots

Just pointing out how it works

Internals: 100 % get test, required score 1/5 & proceed to interview

Externals: 25% get test , required score 4/5 & proceed to interview

How is the initial interview that an internal did to join the internal remotely relevant ?

"No reason can't pass interview again"

Agreed but that isn't really the challenge, the challenge is getting to the interview

& another barrier for externals has been set up now that QF mainline will have an annual intake for internals only

Some subsids release by seniority & others rank by "merit" - that would be your scores . So if you got Q4 , 2025 that would
likely at (merit based subsid) , just means your scores are pretty low & that is not the companies fault. & it isn't a CIA conspiracy
either simply means from the cohort at your subsid - you scored poorly

It doesn't bother of phase me in any way

Why oh why does the "narrative" persist with all of this Silly Billy stuff ? Conspiracy , go work for Virgin/Rex will make it easier , brown nosing deals

Yes I should go off join Virgin so when QF open to externals (which is when ??) , as opposed to internal only process in January 2024 .Then I can submit my application
& I will have a 25% chance of getting a test & maybe a 50% chance of getting through. Lets do that in a couple of years , that is such a better idea than staying at my subsid doing test (that is an "entitlement") in Jan 2024 scoring zero and then proceeding (another entitlement) to interview & likely at least 85% chance of success

You are miles ahead of me Sherlock

[morno]

As I’ve stated in a different thread, assigning a seniority number prior to starting would require a change to the LH EBA in my understanding. It’s not a simple fix.

[Makiko]

But why would internals get a seniority number when externals do not

Is not having "exclusive" application processes for internals only, no sim, entitlement
to final interview , guaranteed selection into process, entitlement to interview with 1/5 test score
enough of an advantage ?

It doesn't take a lot of working out to figure if you want mainline join a subsidiary & that's why at least 50% of SO have come from subsids

& the deck of cards got moved their way even closer with test score not considered for interview & now exclusive "internal only" annual hiring process to mainline

Humbly apologise for suggesting against "the narrative" , Yr humble Serf

[Gooffie]

Not sure on fleet but was external.
were these the VA737 and Cathay guys?

[cLeArIcE]

No one is asking for favouritism in the selection process or any of that. QF can obviously have choice of the best possible applicants and so they should.
What internals are asking for is to be respected for the years of service they have provided to the group over some outsider off the street. If Jetstar or Qlink etc can't release someone because they are not sufficiently crewed, (let's be honest, this is purely due to their incompetence, poor terms and conditions or both) and need to hold people back for years, that those crew who were good enough to pass the selection process are not unfairly punished.
For example, someone at Jetstar has spent years being taken advantage of and screwed by a horrible management that see you as nothing but a piece of garbage, that was good enough to pass the process is screwed once more whilst someone who has contributed nothing to Qantas is forever in front of them. It's not that hard to understand.

​​​​​​

[ScepticalOptomist]

No one is asking for favouritism in the selection process or any of that. QF can obviously have choice of the best possible applicants and so they should.
What internals are asking for is to be respected for the years of service they have provided to the group over some outsider off the street. If Jetstar or Qlink etc can't release someone because they are not sufficiently crewed, (let's be honest, this is purely due to their incompetence, poor terms and conditions or both) and need to hold people back for years, that those crew who were good enough to pass the selection process are not unfairly punished.
For example, someone at Jetstar has spent years being taken advantage of and screwed by a horrible management that see you as nothing but a piece of garbage, that was good enough to pass the process is screwed once more whilst someone who has contributed nothing to Qantas is forever in front of them. It's not that hard to understand.

​​​​​​

You’re right, it should be different. Sadly it’s not. The subsidiaries role in QFs eyes are to provide an IR wedge, nothing more.

Jetstar was the first, but as we are seeing, won’t be the last group used and abused in order to drive an IR agenda.

Hopefully we get new direction once we have a new CEO.

[Jetsbest]

The “Qantas Group” is a construct of the corporate levels in Mascot.

Pilots are merely employees of:
- Mainline,
- Eastern,
- Sunstate,
- Jetconnect,
- Jetstar Aust,
- Jetstar NZ,
- Network,
- Alliance,
- etc….
Each have their own seniority lists & processes. No one has ‘rights’ to opportunities in other entities.

Everything discussed/suggested here is opinion. But any- & everything done by Qantas Group IR/HR is a cynical yet targeted measure intended to minimise costs/attrition/training burden overall. I feel for the ‘-linkers’ with starts dates two years hence, but there are succinct options proposed throughout this thread & none of them are easy for aspiring Mainline pilots.

That’s the reality as I see it. Good luck all.:hmm:

[maggot]

As I’ve stated in a different thread, assigning a seniority number prior to starting would require a change to the LH EBA in my understanding. It’s not a simple fix.

A LOA would cover it.

Never without controversy mind you

I did hear that this at least one dash pilot that holds a mainline #

[mates rates]

Why are you talking about seniority?I thought QF management have decided to do away with it? That will create a real S!it fight.It might be better to go to VA if you want a seniority system and known promotion!!

[havick]

Why are you talking about seniority?I thought QF management have decided to do away with it? That will create a real S!it fight.It might be better to go to VA if you want a seniority system and known promotion!!

what are you talking about? QF does follow seniority strictly, during COVID mostly the senior pilots were furloughed 😂

[neville_nobody]

What internals are asking for is to be respected for the years of service they have provided to the group over some outsider off the street. If Jetstar or Qlink etc can't release someone because they are not sufficiently crewed, (let's be honest, this is purely due to their incompetence, poor terms and conditions or both) and need to hold people back for years, that those crew who were good enough to pass the selection process are not unfairly punished.

The issue here is that what is loyalty worth?? With the world pilot market busting open you are going to see pilots in their late 20's early 30's with heavy jet international experience some even with commands. Not all will want to stay overseas, or their partners will want to return, so the question is what is someone with direct relevant experience worth to QF vs someone who has never flown a jet but is loyal to the corporation?

Honestly I still think you are better off ditching any thought of loyalty and just make move into a jet ASAP

[Jetsbest]

I did hear that this at least one dash pilot that holds a mainline #
There are quite a few pilots with a "Mainline #" who joined pre-Covid, and then were threatened with redundancy unless they took Leave Without Pay (LWOP).:hmm: Periods of up to five years were agreed by QF.

Many of those pilots returned to their previous or other employers (eg -Links or RAAF), which were less-affected by Covid, and resumed higher-than-SO pay and responsibility... secure in the knowledge that they now had that elusive 'Mainline #' in their back pocket. Many such pilots are yet to return to Mainline; what's the hurry when they have a seniority number, and to restart as an SO would be a substantial pay cut. Eminently sensible!!!

Ironically, QF is now apparently pleading with people to return before their agreed LWOP term is expired. Strangely, there is not the same 'desperation' from pilots to return any more... an 'own goal' by QF? Time will tell.:rolleyes:

[Makiko]

ClearIce " Nobody asking for favouriticism" - well their is massive favouriticism atm

Well you should put it to QF that everyone gets evaluated same manner such as

No exclusive annual intake for "internals"
Internals do not get processed first - like 2016
All applications are evaluated on equal merit - not automatic right for internals to get selected for test, if only 20/25% of externals get test same for internals
Internals have to do all elements of selection , including sim
Internals have to achieve same test thresholds to proceed , 2022 got interview & job & onto hold file with 1/5 , externals hire 4/5


"Found to have passed selection"

How is getting a 1/5 for test a "pass" same external would not get through the door

I don't know if its legal / not -legal for QF to have to massively different standards & processes for hire of pilots , but that's certainly what you have
, so difficult to understand the relentless complain

It might well be that QF can lawfully move their Pilots from subsidiary to Mainline without any selection process , suspect they probably know what
they are doing - so all is above board

But to pretend that internals/externals compete on equal terms is incorrect in every way that you could be incorrect

Everyone knows that many of the internals who have joined since 2016 were rejected by mainline more than once in the 2000s

Goodluck to them , their ship came in

But not so goodluck for the military instructor guy , or someone who was jet LHS overseas & "done it all" who was among the 75 % who didn't
even get sent a test

To pretend QF choses best candidates as Pilots with new process - couldn't be more incorrect. They are hiring internals who have often been rejected multiple times , 2000s or 2016/18 whatever & have turned up to their entitlement to have an interview interview ,with the dizzying test score of 1/5. I say well played, but just don't kid yourself that would have had a hope in hell in competing on level playing field

Why do the good folk seem so opposed to letting others know easiest pathway to Mainline

Think i just answered my own question

Waiting for the parrot like reiteration of "the Narrative" ; Its just so unfair for the QF group pilots , QF group pilots get treated like dirt, if I told you once I have told you 100 times if
you want to join QF mainline never ever ever join a QF group airline , Join Rex Virgin or Air NZ & you will get to mainline much more quickly

[A320 Flyer]

Again with the fractions :E

[Gazza mate]

ClearIce " Nobody asking for favouriticism" - well their is massive favouriticism atm

Well you should put it to QF that everyone gets evaluated same manner such as

No exclusive annual intake for "internals"
Internals do not get processed first - like 2016
All applications are evaluated on equal merit - not automatic right for internals to get selected for test, if only 20/25% of externals get test same for internals
Internals have to do all elements of selection , including sim
Internals have to achieve same test thresholds to proceed , 2022 got interview & job & onto hold file with 1/5 , externals hire 4/5


"Found to have passed selection"

How is getting a 1/5 for test a "pass" same external would not get through the door

I don't know if its legal / not -legal for QF to have to massively different standards & processes for hire of pilots , but that's certainly what you have
, so difficult to understand the relentless complain

It might well be that QF can lawfully move their Pilots from subsidiary to Mainline without any selection process , suspect they probably know what
they are doing - so all is above board

But to pretend that internals/externals compete on equal terms is incorrect in every way that you could be incorrect

Everyone knows that many of the internals who have joined since 2016 were rejected by mainline more than once in the 2000s

Goodluck to them , their ship came in

But not so goodluck for the military instructor guy , or someone who was jet LHS overseas & "done it all" who was among the 75 % who didn't
even get sent a test

To pretend QF choses best candidates as Pilots with new process - couldn't be more incorrect. They are hiring internals who have often been rejected multiple times , 2000s or 2016/18 whatever & have turned up to their entitlement to have an interview interview ,with the dizzying test score of 1/5. I say well played, but just don't kid yourself that would have had a hope in hell in competing on level playing field

Why do the good folk seem so opposed to letting others know easiest pathway to Mainline

Think i just answered my own question

Waiting for the parrot like reiteration of "the Narrative" ; Its just so unfair for the QF group pilots , QF group pilots get treated like dirt, if I told you once I have told you 100 times if
you want to join QF mainline never ever ever join a QF group airline , Join Rex Virgin or Air NZ & you will get to mainline much more quickly

Makiko, is the full stop button on your keyboard unserviceable?

.

[dejapoo]

ClearIce " Nobody asking for favouriticism" - well their is massive favouriticism atm

Well you should put it to QF that everyone gets evaluated same manner such as

No exclusive annual intake for "internals"
Internals do not get processed first - like 2016
All applications are evaluated on equal merit - not automatic right for internals to get selected for test, if only 20/25% of externals get test same for internals
Internals have to do all elements of selection , including sim
Internals have to achieve same test thresholds to proceed , 2022 got interview & job & onto hold file with 1/5 , externals hire 4/5


"Found to have passed selection"

How is getting a 1/5 for test a "pass" same external would not get through the door

I don't know if its legal / not -legal for QF to have to massively different standards & processes for hire of pilots , but that's certainly what you have
, so difficult to understand the relentless complain

It might well be that QF can lawfully move their Pilots from subsidiary to Mainline without any selection process , suspect they probably know what
they are doing - so all is above board

But to pretend that internals/externals compete on equal terms is incorrect in every way that you could be incorrect

Everyone knows that many of the internals who have joined since 2016 were rejected by mainline more than once in the 2000s

Goodluck to them , their ship came in

But not so goodluck for the military instructor guy , or someone who was jet LHS overseas & "done it all" who was among the 75 % who didn't
even get sent a test

To pretend QF choses best candidates as Pilots with new process - couldn't be more incorrect. They are hiring internals who have often been rejected multiple times , 2000s or 2016/18 whatever & have turned up to their entitlement to have an interview interview ,with the dizzying test score of 1/5. I say well played, but just don't kid yourself that would have had a hope in hell in competing on level playing field

Why do the good folk seem so opposed to letting others know easiest pathway to Mainline

Think i just answered my own question

Waiting for the parrot like reiteration of "the Narrative" ; Its just so unfair for the QF group pilots , QF group pilots get treated like dirt, if I told you once I have told you 100 times if
you want to join QF mainline never ever ever join a QF group airline , Join Rex Virgin or Air NZ & you will get to mainline much more quickly

Hope you don't rant like that in a control seat ?

[Gnadenburg]

How do you take this QF Group testing seriously and credibly when we all know plenty of pilots who cheated with the process? Ranting about merit, fairness and a brilliance of those who got through looks a bit silly to me.

[aussieflyboy]

How do you take this QF Group testing seriously and credibly when we all know plenty of pilots who cheated with the process? Ranting about merit, fairness and a brilliance of those who got through looks a bit silly to me.

Its difficult to take anything that comes out of Coward St seriously…

[Gligg]

The process makes a lot more sense when you think of it as a valve rather than a filter.

[ROH111]

I am a QF pilot and I’m part of the recruitment team.

To see RAAF pilots be rejected on the basis that they are “not competitive enough” but a 600 hour single Engine girl gets given the job is enough for me to say, QF don’t hire the best pilots available.

if you get in, it’s because you’re a chick. If you’re a bloke, you’re one of the lucky ones.

[Gnadenburg]

Well since you’ve exposed a potential hollowness in the processes, you’d be morally corrupt to continue in your position as a recruiter.

[RENURPP]

I am a QF pilot and I’m part of the recruitment team.

To see RAAF pilots be rejected on the basis that they are “not competitive enough” but a 600 hour single Engine girl gets given the job is enough for me to say, QF don’t hire the best pilots available.

if you get in, it’s because you’re a chick. If you’re a bloke, you’re one of the lucky ones.They have other options, the VIP SQDN at NJS only recognise ex military.

[cloudsurfng]

I am a QF pilot and I’m part of the recruitment team.

To see RAAF pilots be rejected on the basis that they are “not competitive enough” but a 600 hour single Engine girl gets given the job is enough for me to say, QF don’t hire the best pilots available.

if you get in, it’s because you’re a chick. If you’re a bloke, you’re one of the lucky ones.

easy. Blokes should identify as a chick whilst going through recruitment. Once successful, have an epiphany and realise you are now male.

on a serious note, knowing quite a few of the (very good) female pilots who deservedly got in to qf years ago based on merit, they are appalled at the latest trend in recruiting. One of them told me she and some she knows feel like their hard work has been devalued and they will now have the ‘she only got in because she’s female’ hanging over her for the rest of her career. She was asked by management to be part of some female pilots group, she told them to get stuffed, she wouldn’t be involved in some virtue signalling crap. What a crock this place has become. Equally as frustrating for the new recruits, who may well have been recruited on merit!!

[Captn Rex Havack]

Rrenurp - so how come two of my mates who've never been near the military have both joined in the last few months? Oh that's right, facts spoil a good prejudice.

[Makiko]

QF only give out 500 tests to externals typically 2000 applicants

Then maybe a max of 200 jobs from that

Whereas internals 200 applicants 200 proceed to interview (assuming no sim failures) & at least 150 jobs , more like 180 if Qlink

Not to mention internals get multiple attempts as internals have this "entitlement" & now annual intakes for internals (exclusively)

Airline can hire who they want but no point pretending they are hiring best candidates , as how can someone who has done a few years
RHS of dash, compare to someone who has full career in ADF & multiple training postings , or done other major Airline TRE/TRI

NZ exactly the same as they have stated 90% to come from the NZ links, how an earth can they state " if you leave a NZ link we won't look at you for mainline for 8 years"

Think what is incredible is the endless whining & moaning of QF internals with regard the pathway to mainline, that is pretty much a "gold seal red carpet pathway for them to mainline"

& the rudeness you hear that that they now exhibit to externals doing sim assessment & once online as SOs "youse took our jobs before we got here" & sulky sulky around the network , not talking to externals

What a fruity approach , to say the least

[A320 Flyer]

Mate you didn’t get the job….. move on

[Zeta_Reticuli]

easy. Blokes should identify as a chick whilst going through recruitment. Once successful, have an epiphany and realise you are now male.

on a serious note, knowing quite a few of the (very good) female pilots who deservedly got in to qf years ago based on merit, they are appalled at the latest trend in recruiting. One of them told me she and some she knows feel like their hard work has been devalued and they will now have the ‘she only got in because she’s female’ hanging over her for the rest of her career. She was asked by management to be part of some female pilots group, she told them to get stuffed, she wouldn’t be involved in some virtue signalling crap. What a crock this place has become. Equally as frustrating for the new recruits, who may well have been recruited on merit!!


Bolshevik revolution is in full motion! Enjoy the future! Don't worry the "useful idiots" are usually purged first.

[Makiko]

Not correct A320

Oh how one must never threaten "the narrative", big bad Qantas, mistreating the internals so dreadfully , "never to be released"

This is a thread about QF recruitment

Nothing more accurate than what I have posted

If your time is up in RAAF & you have been instructor at advanced & then on a C17 or Tanker or something , you are best off flying the might Dash 300 for a few years at Qlink.
As after that you are pretty much guaranteed transition to QF mainline (if that is what you want)

Would have thought the message delivered by the Company is pretty obvious - if you want QF mainline join a subsidiary

Because we now take at least half our pilots from subsids, will give you multiple attempts , will have exclusive application periods for internals only, you can screw up the test & we will still hire you.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me as if most internals had to compete on open market - they wouldn't have got hired

But reasonably portion run around carping & moaning & making rude inappropriate comments to externals

As I said earlier a somewhat fruity approach

[Gunner747400]

Airline can hire who they want but no point pretending they are hiring best candidates , as how can someone who has done a few years RHS of dash, compare to someone who has full career in ADF & multiple training postings , or done other major Airline TRE/TRI

You should apply for NJS. You would fit in real well with your absolute love for anyone that has worn a flight suit.

[Makiko]

How is going direct from UNSW , or Swinny or QPA or Qlink traineeship , sitting RHS for 3 to 5 years

Remotely comparable to someone who has done full ADF Pilot tour or 10K Airbus/Boeing doing all the training examining stuff

If people want mainline , they should at least know the easiest pathway

[dr dre]

I am a QF pilot and I’m part of the recruitment team……if you get in, it’s because you’re a chick. If you’re a bloke, you’re one of the lucky ones.

Are you? Because everyone knows who the new hire SOs are, and the % female since restart of recruitment last year is roughly around 10%.

The amount of commercial pilots in Australia who are female is……..around 10% (https://amp.abc.net.au/article/13063712). So females are being recruited to mainline in roughly the same percentage they are in the industry at the moment. Of course the number of female pilots has increased in recent years, so you may be misinterpreting that as a preference for females, in reality it’s just hiring reflecting the current industry.

[dr dre]

To see RAAF pilots be rejected on the basis that they are “not competitive enough” but a 600 hour single Engine girl gets given the job is enough for me to say, QF don’t hire the best pilots available.



Airline can hire who they want but no point pretending they are hiring best candidates , as how can someone who has done a few years
RHS of dash, compare to someone who has full career in ADF & multiple training postings

Maybe, just maybe…….

Being ex military doesn’t automatically make you the “best” pilot?

I think those who’ve flown alongside pilots of multiple backgrounds will agree to that.

A recruitment process is more than just looking at a resume, seeing a candidate was a former F-18 FCI and then automatically giving them a job. Potentially they tripped up on other areas in the recruitment process. Behaviour, personality, questions about CRM, teamwork, decision making etc?

And yes you can find that a 600hr civilian pilot in singles or (more likely) a Dash-8 F/O in multi crew airline flying can produce a better performance in the testing process than the ex mil guy. That’s just how it works, an airline will more likely recruit those who have experience in airline flying.

[Give it the herbs]

Qlinks' very own Chief Pilot has a mainline seniority number while he tells others at link they can't get one. It's hypocrisy at its finest.

[Makiko]

Not how the US majors & most other credible WB operators do it (whether in Asia/ME)

"The dash guy has some magic X factor for LH WB flying - let's grab him"

But if all "internals" had to have their applications included with "externals" , and there are say 650 selected for tests from 2500 applicants

The vast majority of Qlink guys & a lot of other internals wouldn't even get a test & if they did , they would have to get 4/5 not 1/5

In probability terms an "internal" has 10 times the chance of joining Mainline

To pretend it is all an objective even assessment of background/talent/abilities across both internals & externals is complete nonsense

[Gunner747400]

Not how the US majors & most other credible WB operators do it (whether in Asia/ME)

"The dash guy has some magic X factor for LH WB flying - let's grab him"

But if all "internals" had to have their applications included with "externals" , and there are say 650 selected for tests from 2500 applicants

The vast majority of Qlink guys & a lot of other internals wouldn't even get a test & if they did , they would have to get 4/5 not 1/5

In probability terms an "internal" has 10 times the chance of joining Mainline

To pretend it is all an objective even assessment of background/talent/abilities across both internals & externals is complete nonsense
What do you mean it's not how the US airlines do it? They literally have a FLOW program which guarantees (Yes, guarantees, which is not even close to what happens in Australia) from the regionals to the major. They do exactly what you are so heavily against.

You have no credible evidence to suggest any of your claims about people internally not being suitable for the role and are just spitting out random numbers which are factually incorrect.

Also, you clearly have never operated with ex-military/high jet time guys, some of them have the attitudes that the introduction of CRM and HF training decades ago was designed to get rid of.

[Makiko]

I am not heavily for or against anything regarding QF group pilot selection

Simply stating how a system works

You would be incorrect about how things work in USA , only AA have a flow & that is for a small % of intakes , other large 5 don't

Think of it this way if you were hiring engineers for a job , do you think you would get the best by simply hiring out of SA & Tas , disregarding the rest of Aussie

Internal applicants in 2022 represent maybe 10% of total applicants - but will get 50% of the positions , because of the massive advantages that come with being an internal applicant

QF can do this if they want to, but its clear that they are no longer hiring the best available - because most other apps don't get look in or same "perks" if you like

If people want QF mainline , they simply should be aware of what the game is & how to best play it

[patituri]

There is an ongoing recruitment for A220 TR, experienced pilots from Europe.
Any idea what to expect in the assessment, or how many positions will be offered? We are already 8 candidates from my company and increasing
How much is the salary for a F/O and how many days the annual leave?
Thank you in advance

[SixDemonBag]

Qlinks' very own Chief Pilot has a mainline seniority number while he tells others at link they can't get one. It's hypocrisy at its finest.

really? I’d be surprised about that

[A320 Flyer]

There is an ongoing recruitment for A220 TR, experienced pilots from Europe.
Any idea what to expect in the assessment, or how many positions will be offered? We are already 8 candidates from my company and increasing
How much is the salary for a F/O and how many days the annual leave?
Thank you in advance

Steer clear….. they do not even have approval from the Australian government to hire from overseas. Salaries will likely be less than in Europe. This is not “Qantas” hiring….

[captainhan]

New to the thread here,
noticed to the Qantas recruitment website always has the option for application as direct entry entry second officer. From all the negativity I can see in this thread it makes me think that, the recruitment web page advertisement is just there as a formality. Is it actually possible to be accepted direct entry? or is a potential hire expected to be put through the mill at Qantas link and the likes.

[ScepticalOptomist]

New to the thread here,
noticed to the Qantas recruitment website always has the option for application as direct entry entry second officer. From all the negativity I can see in this thread it makes me think that, the recruitment web page advertisement is just there as a formality. Is it actually possible to be accepted direct entry? or is a potential hire expected to be put through the mill at Qantas link and the likes.

Most new hires have historically been direct entry.
The subsidiaries historically have not had much luck in coming across to mainline.
Recently the subsidiaries (internals) are making up the majority of SOs.
Arguments from both internals and direct hires as to who is the better applicant.

From my seat, I’d argue there have been good and bad from both camps.

[captainhan]

Most new hires have historically been direct entry.
The subsidiaries historically have not had much luck in coming across to mainline.
Recently the subsidiaries (internals) are making up the majority of SOs.
Arguments from both internals and direct hires as to who is the better applicant.

From my seat, I’d argue there have been good and bad from both camps.
So what exactly does the ideal direct entry candidate need to bring to the table to make the cut? I take it that most probably rock up with a few thousand hours on either the 320 or 737 having been flown from other airlines. Or does one just need the bare minimum requirements + absolutely excel at the assessment phase?

[SixDemonBag]

So what exactly does the ideal direct entry candidate need to bring to the table to make the cut? I take it that most probably rock up with a few thousand hours on either the 320 or 737 having been flown from other airlines. Or does one just need the bare minimum requirements + absolutely excel at the assessment phase?

I think you need to be someone that you could sit opposite for hours on end. That would be a good start. You could 10,000 hours and a space shuttle endorsement and still be an ass

[ScepticalOptomist]

So what exactly does the ideal direct entry candidate need to bring to the table to make the cut? I take it that most probably rock up with a few thousand hours on either the 320 or 737 having been flown from other airlines. Or does one just need the bare minimum requirements + absolutely excel at the assessment phase?

These days, I’d say doing well in the assessment is the key. The interview used to be good at weeding out the weirdos but now it’s just standard HR fluff.

The minimum requirements are just that, if you meet them and do well at the assessment you’re in no worse shape than someone with plenty of experience.

[ScepticalOptomist]

So what exactly does the ideal direct entry candidate need to bring to the table to make the cut? I take it that most probably rock up with a few thousand hours on either the 320 or 737 having been flown from other airlines. Or does one just need the bare minimum requirements + absolutely excel at the assessment phase?

Lots of the new hires have plenty of turboprop time or time on smaller jets. Some have been Capt previously. Others are out of GA with no multi crew experience.

Most turn up with a good attitude and are keen to learn, while others turn up thinking they’ve done it all and have learned everything before joining.

[captainhan]

Lots of the new hires have plenty of turboprop time or time on smaller jets. Some have been Capt previously. Others are out of GA with no multi crew experience.

Most turn up with a good attitude and are keen to learn, while others turn up thinking they’ve done it all and have learned everything before joining.
I Have almost 10k hours on the 330 and almost a 1000 hours command on the 320 and was hoping to one day join Qantas. Are you telling me all of this is doesn't make a dent and it just comes down to personality? Man have I wasted 10 years 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Zeta_Reticuli]

I Have almost 10k hours on the 330 and almost a 1000 hours command on the 320 and was hoping to one day join Qantas. Are you telling me all of this is doesn't make a dent and it just comes down to personality? Man have I wasted 10 years 🤦🏻‍♂️

You can turn this around in just one day. Just identify as an alphabet person and you can be one of the many fruitcakes featured in a Sunrise flight or one of there many propaganda stunts.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I Have almost 10k hours on the 330 and almost a 1000 hours command on the 320 and was hoping to one day join Qantas. Are you telling me all of this is doesn't make a dent and it just comes down to personality? Man have I wasted 10 years 🤦🏻‍♂️

Wasted 10 years? Not at all - I’m assuming you have enjoyed your time and life wherever you are. If now you want something new, go ahead and apply - your experience is valuable. Just don’t make the mistake that experience is ALL you need to succeed.

[dragon man]

I Have almost 10k hours on the 330 and almost a 1000 hours command on the 320 and was hoping to one day join Qantas. Are you telling me all of this is doesn't make a dent and it just comes down to personality? Man have I wasted 10 years 🤦🏻‍♂️

Why would you give that up for a SO job on the 787 based in Perth on $80,000 a year?

[Chronic Snoozer]

Why would you give that up for a SO job on the 787 based in Perth on $80,000 a year?

Because it's Perth?

[morno]

$80,000 a year? Not sure where you get your information from, but that’s very roughly only about $44,000 a year out, and that’s based on min divisor all year!

[dr dre]

I Have almost 10k hours on the 330 and almost a 1000 hours command on the 320 and was hoping to one day join Qantas. Are you telling me all of this is doesn't make a dent and it just comes down to personality? Man have I wasted 10 years 🤦🏻‍♂️

Well if you’ve developed the personality of an assh*le over 10 years then yes you’ve potentially wasted 10 years.

[dr dre]

$80,000 a year? Not sure where you get your information from, but that’s very roughly only about $44,000 a year out, and that’s based on min divisor all year!

Yep - you can spend several days wading through the world’s most complicated EA to confirm that:

QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED PILOTS (LONG HAUL) ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2020 (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/download/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC80L2FlNTA3ODU1LnBkZg2)

Take note that with the promotions expected over the next 4 years you’ll only be remaining on new hire SO pay if you choose to.

[Give it the herbs]

really? I’d be surprised about that
Check the seniority list - 1699. It'd probably get them a Perth widebody right seat in a few weeks.
How more people aren't outraged by it baffles me. Especially those being held back at link to help plug the hole in the training pipeline.

[morno]

Yep - you can spend several days wading through the world’s most complicated EA to confirm that:

QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED PILOTS (LONG HAUL) ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2020 (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/download/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMC80L2FlNTA3ODU1LnBkZg2)

Take note that with the promotions expected over the next 4 years you’ll only be remaining on new hire SO pay if you choose to.

Yeah you’re still a long way out. Even on the new rate, I get $125k base. Plus any extras like training throughout the year. Not $80k.

*edited because MGH on the 787 is actually 145, not 140

[dragon man]

My apologies it’s $97,000 minimum guarantee on 330/350/380 no training as against $121,500 on the 787 first year. I gues there is a C scale then.

[morno]

My apologies it’s $97,000 minimum guarantee on 330/350/380 no training as against $121,500 on the 787 first year. I gues there is a C scale then.

Dre/Dragon Man, whoever you are.

Still wrong.

A380/330/350 base excluding training is $110k in a couple of months time.

I still can’t work out what maths you’re using.

[captainhan]

Why would you give that up for a SO job on the 787 based in Perth on $80,000 a year?
Well I can't say but I haven't enjoyed my time where I am at the moment, but I also could have moved perhaps to the middle East for a little more money and nicer routes/aircraft. And maybe have ended up with command there too on a much nicer plane than the 320.
But to answer your question, I guess Qantas has always been the dream job, for me and hey I don't mind roughing it out on a second officer salary for 4 years and im not too picky on which fleet I get assigned. So.....

[Don Diego]

Hey there Captainhan, sad truth old boy, when it comes to HR at QF and who they do or do not hire I can assure you that your experience counts for SFA, 10,000 hours in command of a wide body on international operations to them is the same as 500 hours in a C206 out Broome. Go figure.

[SixDemonBag]

Check the seniority list - 1699. It'd probably get them a Perth widebody right seat in a few weeks.
How more people aren't outraged by it baffles me. Especially those being held back at link to help plug the hole in the training pipeline.

wait. How many chief pilots are there? I was thinking of AY

[cap71n]

wait. How many chief pilots are there? I was thinking of AY

Hasn't been chief for a long time now.

[romeocharlie]

Dre/Dragon Man, whoever you are.

Still wrong.

A380/330/350 base excluding training is $110k in a couple of months time.

I still can’t work out what maths you’re using.

MGH is 160 * 6 = 960.

32.7.4 Line hourly rates of pay effective from the first pay period on or after 1 July 2023

A380/330/350 = $106.17

787 = $133.02

So French fleet is about $100k, 78 is about $133k

Maths was never my strong suit, so please feel free to explain your working. FWIW I earned about $120-130 on the 78 as an SO including allowances. Like others have said, the choice is binary at the moment with all the movement. Either you want the LH lifestyle on $100-120k for doing little, or you want to fly the maggot around for circa $200k + and a little extra effort. Also, for those whinging about internals getting preference -I'm sure you would've whinged just as much while you sat on hold for 2 years watching externals get hired ahead of you because subsidiaries couldn't spare to let anyone go. It's a big game of swings and roundabouts, and if you play the victim throughout your career, people will give zero f....'s about your country song.

[morno]

MGH is 160 * 6 = 960. MGH for the 787 is 145, but you should know that if you’re on it. And there’s more than 6 bid periods in 365 days. 4 pays per BP X 26 fortnight’s in a year. That’ll get you an accurate per year amount.

32.7.4 Line hourly rates of pay effective from the first pay period on or after 1 July 2023

A380/330/350 = $106.17 X 160 / 4 X 26 = $110k

787 = $133.02 X 145 / 4 X 26 = $125k

So French fleet is about $100k ($110k on MGH), 78 is about $133k ($125k on MGH)

Maths was never my strong suit, so please feel free to explain your working. FWIW I earned about $120-130 on the 78 as an SO including allowances. Like others have said, the choice is binary at the moment with all the movement. Either you want the LH lifestyle on $100-120k for doing little, or you want to fly the maggot around for circa $200k + and a little extra effort. Also, for those whinging about internals getting preference -I'm sure you would've whinged just as much while you sat on hold for 2 years watching externals get hired ahead of you because subsidiaries couldn't spare to let anyone go. It's a big game of swings and roundabouts, and if you play the victim throughout your career, people will give zero f....'s about your country song.

Working included

[SandyPalms]

To be sure you get the correct numbers.

There are 6.5 BP per year. So all except the 787, that's 1040 hours.

And you must do 4 sims and 1 eps per year. Add security every 2 years. All up you will get a minimum of 1067.5 at min guarantee, and every second year you get an extra 5.5. If you aren't based where the Sim is, you also get the paxing credit days on top, but that's base dependant.

Of course you get allwances on top of all that.