Qantas Recruitment

[Sunfish]

Angle of attack: OK , maybe I'm an old fart Sunfish but what is a pornographic email address? an email that contains explicit words?

[email protected]

[engine out]

24 started this week and 130 on active hold, with recruitment still to continue.

[Rated De]

'One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.'

Michael O'Leary of Ryanair 'fame'
The Irish Times 23 September 2017

[startno1]

For those who are or were flying overseas and applied for QF, did QF accept the current instrument proficiency check on your overseas license or did you have to do one back home before applying? It's the only thing not really specified on the minimum requirements.

Cheers

[smiling monkey]

Anyone know how many more assessment days are scheduled for the remainder of the year?

[sandsthrudahrglass]

Anyone know how many more assessment days are scheduled for the remainder of the year?

November may be the last.

[sandsthrudahrglass]

For those who are or were flying overseas and applied for QF, did QF accept the current instrument proficiency check on your overseas license or did you have to do one back home before applying? It's the only thing not really specified on the minimum requirements.

Cheers

I was told they’ll allow you to attend an assessment day with an overseas rating, but if successful, you’ll need an Aussie rating before your start date.

[i_fly_planes]

Is it likely that applications for SO will open again, possibly in the new year?

Cheers.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Is it likely that applications for SO will open again, possibly in the new year?

Cheers.

Yes, it is in the cards. I'd suggest getting stuck into your psychometric practice exams.

[Nick_F]

Is it likely that applications for SO will open again, possibly in the new year?

Cheers.

Out of curiosity, are guys really still interested in apply for Qantas given the mass of recruitment that has happened this year and how low your seniority is going to be if you start mid-late next year? That's a long time as an SO before you get to be a real pilot.

[Fok]

Yes, it is in the cards. I'd suggest getting stuck into your psychometric practice exams.

can we expect openings in the new year? Airnz is advertising for s.o's.

[Keg]

Yes. It's highly likely that they'll be opening up applications early next year.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Out of curiosity, are guys really still interested in apply for Qantas given the mass of recruitment that has happened th is year and how low your seniority is going to be if you start mid-late next year? That's a long time as an SO before you get to be a real pilot.

Given the expansion over the next few years as well as the normal turnover due to retirements there's plenty on offer for a career at QF. You'll never see the crazy rapid promotion that you see overseas but there's a lifestyle reason for that.

To put it another way, people are being asked if they want to go PER 737 FO in their first week at the company with other bases not far off. That's not going to last forever of course but nothing ever does.

Horses for courses but I'd suggest that for anybody who wants to live in Aus this is still a very good gig. If you're more interested in getting a widebody window seat in the shortest time possible then you're best off overseas.

[ruprecht]

The latest A330 FO SYD positions were awarded to pilots with 15 years seniority.

QF now has two airlines: a senior east coast one, and a junior west coast one. :p

[SandyPalms]

The latest A330 FO SYD positions were awarded to pilots with 15 years seniority.

QF now has two airlines: a senior east coast one, and a junior west coast one.


But the A330 FO PER are also not for off that ruprecht (12 years). The 737 is a different story on both coasts. The most junior 737 FO MEL position went to a JULY 2017 start date.

[Nick_F]

The most junior 737 FO MEL position went to a JULY 2017 start date.

I find that hard to believe

[Stiff Under Carriage]

How hard do the domestic 737 guys work? Duty hours or flight time? Days away?

[maggot]

How hard do the domestic 737 guys work? Duty hours or flight time? Days away?

Right now? Lots!
Mid 900s for many.
But hey, even 380 guys are at max too...

[Fok]

Does anybody know when the 'reapply in 12 months' starts from? When you first applied or when you got told thanks but no thanks...

[Fonz121]

I always assumed it was from getting the no letter. In some cases you may have applied 12 months before getting the no which would mean you could reapply straight away which doesn't make much sense.

Write and ask.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Does anybody know when the 'reapply in 12 months' starts from? When you first applied or when you got told thanks but no thanks...

If you did not go to an Assessment Centre (i.e. "interview") in Sydney then the 12 months applies from the date on which applications closed.

If you attended an Assessment Centre then the twelve months commenced from a later date which I believe was the date on which you were notified that you had been unsuccessful.

By all means though, do not take my word for it; email them!

[bunghole]

If you attended an Assessment Centre then the twelve months commenced from a later date which I believe was the date on which you were notified that you had been unsuccessful.


FRQ is correct.


I did ask and that was the response. After missing out on the assessment day and not progressing to the sim I will re-apply in 12 months. It was a positive experience regardless.


Lots of very experienced people more suitably qualified than myself were also overlooked. It comes down to your performance on the day and mine was obviously sub par. Good luck to everyone applying.

[VHFRT]

Lots of very experienced people more suitably qualified than myself were also overlooked. It comes down to your performance on the day and mine was obviously sub par. Good luck to everyone applying.

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. You probably weren't "sub par", but more than likely just didn't tick some odd HR box.

They've certainly missed out on some really good people, and without sounding unpleasant, picked up a few who I'd have kept away from.

Wonderful world of HR :ugh:

[SandyPalms]

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. You probably weren't "sub par", but more than likely just didn't tick some odd HR box.

They've certainly missed out on some really good people, and without sounding unpleasant, picked up a few who I'd have kept away from.

Wonderful world of HR :ugh:

That may well be true (I don't know), but wouldn't be anything new.

[gcpilot]

Rumours of late call ups to candidates in an attempt to beef up the November course?

[normanton]

All has been very quiet lately..

What is the recruitment looking like for 2018?

From what I am hearing there is still a lot of people who are eagerly waiting for the applications to re-open after they missed out applying in 2016.

[Rated De]

For all that are enduring the agony of the process.

Recruitment has been either farmed out or captured.
Airline pilots, even those creeping corridors have little sway in the decisions.
It is the same in Europe and Asia; the parasitic infection gets control and people who have spent a lot of time and expense acquiring the skill set are given scant regard. HR is in a battle for survival and control of recruiting ensures their survival.

Aviation skills, like lots of specialties are hard to obtain, they do have a convertible return on that investment. It is a game of patience, timing and indeed understanding.

Most of the pilots applying, like those who went before can't work out why it is so complicated, confusing and silent.

Complexity and opaqueness is by design. For it is complexity, control and confusion that gives HR relevance.

Do not lose heart, the demographic shortage which is prevalent in many countries and which Australia is beginning to witness will ensure that eventually even their self important crap generating not an ounce of revenue is gently moved aside as airlines realise that getting pilots is akin to generating operating revenue.

[Who stole my meds]

We can only hope so Rated De

["Littlebird"]

QF will realise during the next round of recruitment that the supply is not endless. Many will still be waiting out their 12 months before they can reapply. Some that made it to the sim.
Here is one for you all as I know you all enjoy the metrics.
I recently met with 5 applicants that missed out after the QF sim. All 5 met the Cathay and Cathay Dragon standard. All of them had also made it with Jetstar and Emirates. I believe their steep turns and/or intercepts were not up to the QF standard. Hilarious!
L.B:hmm:

[normanton]

LB,

The QF sim is one of the easiest recruitment sims I've done! Perhaps if the 5 applicants missed out after the QF sim, they simply didn't meet the standard? If they can't do a simple steep turn when the instructor tells you what attitude to use, or do a simple 30 degree ADF intercept then surely you could understand why QF passed on their application.

[romeocharlie]

LB,

The QF sim is one of the easiest recruitment sims I've done! Perhaps if the 5 applicants missed out after the QF sim, they simply didn't meet the standard? If they can't do a simple steep turn when the instructor tells you what attitude to use, or do a simple 30 degree ADF intercept then surely you could understand why QF passed on their application.

With that attitude, you'll get right along with all the other skygods. Just be sure to mention how amazing you are when you're in the back seat. Some people have waited 9 years for a go at that sim, so when the pressure is on, it's not surprising when they struggle. Doesn't help when you've been flying something completely different for the last decade (ie sidestick) either. Good luck to those reapplying - hopefully the tenacity will be recognised.

[Iron Bar]

If you are going to struggle when the pressure is on, that may not bode well for getting the job. Cranky sense of entitlement won't help either.

[das Uber Soldat]

With that attitude, you'll get right along with all the other skygods. Just be sure to mention how amazing you are when you're in the back seat. Some people have waited 9 years for a go at that sim, so when the pressure is on, it's not surprising when they struggle. Doesn't help when you've been flying something completely different for the last decade (ie sidestick) either. Good luck to those reapplying - hopefully the tenacity will be recognised.
The interviewer can only go on what is presented on the day. If you fluff the sim, you fluff the sim, simple as that. Excuses about 'sidestick' or whatever else you come up with have absolutely no relevance.

If your expectation that a poor sim performance shouldn't have bearing on the outcome of the interview process then explain to me what the point of the sim exercise is in the first place?

[CurtainTwitcher]

A long long time ago, in a galaxy far away CurtainTwitcher had a conversation with a chief pilot in Asia and he told me an interesting story about a candidate and his sim ride.

Two years had elapsed since his airline had collapsed, and he hadn't flown since. The Chief Pilot decided to do the assessment sim himself, and expected a poor show, however he granted him the ride simply out of courtesy & respect for their shared history.

To his utter amazement he was blown away by the performance, the best he had seen, consisting of V1 cut, vectors for a single engine LOC approach, all RAW DATA, without being briefed beforehand.

In the debrief, he was quite concerned that the candidate was not being completely honest about his two years without flying and questioned further. It turned out that after the collapse, he decided to nurse his dying mother until she passed away. HOWEVER, during that time he kept up his skills on MS flight sim, with two hours a day practice, EVERY day with every complex IFR challenge he could dream up.

The Chief pilot accepted the explanation and immediately offered him the job.

The lesson of the story is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE the hard stuff in your own time at home to master the skill for when the pressure is on. Really, is there an excuse when the technology to do this is so cheap and readily available?

[normanton]

With that attitude, you'll get right along with all the other skygods. Just be sure to mention how amazing you are when you're in the back seat. Some people have waited 9 years for a go at that sim, so when the pressure is on, it's not surprising when they struggle. Doesn't help when you've been flying something completely different for the last decade (ie sidestick) either. Good luck to those reapplying - hopefully the tenacity will be recognised.
There is no attitude at all, just stating the facts.

Your reply screams self entitlement. Let me guess, an unsuccessful internal applicant from Jetstar? :ok:

What makes you think I haven't done hard years in GA?

[romeocharlie]

There is no attitude at all, just stating the facts.

Your reply screams self entitlement. Let me guess, an unsuccessful internal applicant from Jetstar? :ok:

What makes you think I haven't done hard years in GA?

I never mentioned GA.

To clarify, I've never flown an Airbus, nor do I work for JQ.

My response wasn't meant to come across as entitled, more as empathetic, so I'm sorry if it appeared that way. It's up to candidates to prepare thoroughly for a sim in an unfamiliar aircraft, regardless of what they're on.

Glad you found the sim easy, but others haven't, that's what my comment about attitude was regarding.

[Rated De]

The problem with HR driven process interview is that the person with whom you interact may have little to no knowledge of the profession. Perhaps by design it is this way.

Technical interviews have a technique and format.

Behavioural interviews have a technique and format.

Whilst there may be token pilot presence on an interview panel, it is pretty easy to work out who has the 'chair', body language and other tells will let you know how it is to proceed.

This is all knowledge that is able to be garnished and assessed well before you enter the lion's den.

There are plenty of resources available to teach testing and technique. The days of the internet do help occasionally!

The recruitment process is a sort of game, not trying to be condescending to those stuck in the middle of it, but you can prepare and anticipate a lot of the likely directions the process will take.

gone are the days where pilots interview pilots. This industry is not alone. Financial professionals in my field labour through HR driven process. There is help.



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Enchoen27n3200.jpg/220px-Enchoen27n3200.jpg



In this bloke's day he would have told you 'every battle is won before it is ever fought'

[Icarus2001]

Some people have waited 9 years for a go at that sim, so when the pressure is on, it's not surprising when they struggle.

I am not sure I understand your point here.

So because they waited nine years for a sim check they will naturally perform poorly? What if they had waited two years or fifteen?

Sim check is a snapshot of your ability at that time usually in an unknown type with unknown speeds and characteristics.

[Open Descent]

In this bloke's day he would have told you 'every battle is won before it is ever fought'


Spot on..... and to that end very little has changed

[Nick_F]

With that attitude, you'll get right along with all the other skygods. Just be sure to mention how amazing you are when you're in the back seat. Some people have waited 9 years for a go at that sim, so when the pressure is on, it's not surprising when they struggle. Doesn't help when you've been flying something completely different for the last decade (ie sidestick) either. Good luck to those reapplying - hopefully the tenacity will be recognised.

Calm down mate. I think he's right. The sim isn't hard. Maybe if guys aren't getting through the process they just simply don't deserve the job.

The standard here is high and it should be maintained.

[bafanguy]

They've certainly missed out on some really good people, and without sounding unpleasant, picked up a few who I'd have kept away from.

VHFRT,

That sentence could be engraved on a stone tablet and affixed to the front door of every airline HQ building.

It's hard to understand given HR's belief in the infallibility of their process but as true as the immutable laws of physics.

[Rated De]

It's hard to understand given HR's belief in the infallibility of their process but as true as the immutable laws of physics.

If you think conceptually about the role they 'fill', HR is really irrelevant.

They have invented a role, invented relevance and wedge themselves where ever they can; creating conflict where there is none, complexity where it isn't needed and inventing jargon to 'support the science of their endeavours'

There is little 'science' and less relevance...to them controlling a recruiting process ensures their own survival!

[gtseraf]

when a department has to label themselves "talent acquisition" then you know it's gone a long way in the wrong direction.

[layman]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Having been on the backend of a 'strange' recruitment decision or two myself, I won't pretend to be an unapologetic supporter of HR but ...

There are aspects of recruitment that are best handled by HR "experts" just as there as there are aspects best handled by subject-matter "experts".

No approach is perfect, and mistakes will be made, but I've noticed over many years professionally assessing people, the people who do miss out often (incorrectly) assign the "blame" to others when it really comes down to there being better people available.

regards
layman

[Unbroken]

Has anyone heard any rumors or have any idea of the following;

1) Is Qantas still working through initial applications and conducting interviews?

2) Have start dates been allocated for next year?

3) When would we be likely to see applications re-open for those of us that missed out on this first round?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[nexttime]

I've been humming and harring about expressing my feelings with Qantas recruitment and thought I would share my experience to get it off my chest.

I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to progress to the 2nd stage - interview, 1 on 1, group activity ect but was unsuccessful in getting through to the sim.

I am a bit deflated about it all and have such an overwhelming sense of failure knowing that I did my absolute best to prepare myself. I think the hardest thing for me is getting no feedback from the day, only to be asked to apply again in 12 months time. I really don't know what to do differently and unsure what it is that recruitment are looking for. I know other candidates were able to redo their talent q if that let them down, others had 1 on 1 psyc. assessment if they answered the 580 odd questions in a way that would cause a review.

So perhaps it leaves me to my level of education, not having a university degree, noncompetitive HSC & ATPL marks compared to the other applicants - who knows, it really could be anything. Maybe I didn't answer an interview question the way they wanted. I don't mean to sound overconfident but I felt the day went well.

I think the sense of failure is compounded by seeing the new 787 on tv and some people I know getting through with me knowing their history in aviation - I am unsure how their progression happened but it did (I hope that reads right, not a personal attack against anyone but I have to wonder)

But also in saying that I certainly take my hat off to those that progressed and are now seated on the flight deck of a Qantas jet. They are clearly capable of something that I am not.

[bafanguy]

I've been humming and harring about expressing my feelings with Qantas recruitment and thought I would share my experience to get it off my chest.

I am a bit deflated about it all and have such an overwhelming sense of failure knowing that I did my absolute best to prepare myself.

But also in saying that I certainly take my hat off to those that progressed and are now seated on the flight deck of a Qantas jet. They are clearly capable of something that I am not.

nexttime,

Advice from strangers isn’t likely much consolation but I hate to see you being too hard on yourself. You played the opening period in a very tough game. It’s hard not to take it personally…cuz…it’s so freakin’ PERSONAL !!

Discouragement and frustration are understandable; it’s easy to let it rock one’s confidence.

Just getting an interview is a huge accomplishment so you must’ve shown them something they liked and considered to meet standards or you'd not have been invited in. Neither you nor those hired will know what they did right…or wrong…in producing the results. Most of us aren’t all that good at interviewing.

The process Down There and Up Here are likely very similar at the legacy level (and below). I’ve watched friends and acquaintances run this gauntlet for 4+ decades and seen airlines turn away some absolutely fantastic candidates. To this day, no one knows why. The airlines think they’ve got an infallible process bordering on clairvoyance. Umm, they don’t. They do an OK job of hiring good people but let a few real clinkers slip though.

An inside source up here told me of a guy hired by a place you’d kill to work for…on the THIRD interview. Mind boggling since the guy they hired on the third go is exactly the same guy they turned down the first time…and the second time. It’s foolish to believe otherwise. He merely learned how to spray better perfume on his dogs and ponies which speaks volumes about the game itself.

So, don’t let it get to you enough to erode your confidence. (Easy for others to say, I know.)

If they’ll let you interview again, do it…ten times if they’ll allow. If you can get some interview prep, do that too.

Hang in there and best wishes.

[SonofCoco]

Has anyone heard any rumors or have any idea of the following;

1) Is Qantas still working through initial applications and conducting interviews?

2) Have start dates been allocated for next year?

3) When would we be likely to see applications re-open for those of us that missed out on this first round?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Be ready- reopening early next year, maybe even January! Good luck!

[normanton]

I think the sense of failure is compounded by seeing the new 787 on tv and some people I know getting through with me knowing their history in aviation - I am unsure how their progression happened but it did (I hope that reads right, not a personal attack against anyone but I have to wonder)
I completely understand where you are coming from. It's not a personal attack at all, its reality. I know people who got in early on who had a very suspect history, constantly failed recurrent sims, couldn't pass command upgrade sims etc.

Out of curiosity, did you do any interview preparation with flight deck consulting or pinstripes?

[nexttime]

I completely understand where you are coming from. It's not a personal attack at all, its reality. I know people who got in early on who had a very suspect history, constantly failed recurrent sims, couldn't pass command upgrade sims etc.

Out of curiosity, did you do any interview preparation with flight deck consulting or pinstripes?

Yes, I did use one of those companies for my interview prep and found it an extremely helpful experience.

[Brakerider]

nexttime, turn your PMs on

[nexttime]

nexttime, turn your PMs on

I think I have to wait until a reach 5 posts before it's activated. So when that happens I will turn it on and shoot one to you.

[Unbroken]

Be ready- reopening early next year, maybe even January! Good luck!

Thank you, appreciate the info.

[sandsthrudahrglass]

Totally agree with nexttime, my understanding was further testing if you were deficient in clinical assessment or talent q " revalidation ". Interviewers seemed positive about interview responses.

Cannot apply to Jetstar if unsuccessful with Qantas.

[Rated De]

Nexttime

"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never—in nothing, ...Sir Winston Churchill

Cold consolation when you aimed for it. The reality is life never follows a Hollywood script (where adversity conquered, the bad guy dispatched and the girl got) all in 90 minutes plus trailers.

Life is seldom revealed to us looking forward, we see its lessons as we look back. As Thomas Eddison famously lamented;

'I haven't failed, I just found 10,000 ways that didn't work.'

You will work your way around it and when committed to a course usually providence will move with you! With more failures than I care to recall, my experience is that I have seen many educated, wealthy (usually chose their parents well) and seemingly talented people fail.

The defining characteristic isn't privilege or luck it is almost always persistence.

[nexttime]

Thanks for the wise words, it's greatly appreciated. I am starting to feel a bit better about the whole ordeal.

Qantas isn't the only option out there. I take comfort in the fact that by reading this thread, there appears to be some extremely talented pilots out there that have unfortunately missed out.

Unbroken (Louis Zamperini - great book!)

When I was interviewed they mentioned slots for A330 Sydney and 787 Perth, maybe Brisbane later in 2018. Unsure how quickly things change though.

[IsDon]

When I was interviewed they mentioned slots for A330 Sydney and 787 Perth, maybe Brisbane later in 2018. Unsure how quickly things change though.

Rapidly!

Networks are looking at a whole bunch of options from the East coast and Perth.

AJ stated that we’re not ordering more 787s until the initial tranche prove themselves. (Purely for market consumption) Read into that that next orders will be announced early in the new year after a couple of months of MEL-LAX.

BNE/MEL/PER bases already announced. Hopefully SYD next.

Recruiting will continue into the foreseeable future.

Keep your chin up. Put it down to experience and practice for your next attempt. See you here soon.

[eukeybound]

I've been humming and harring about expressing my feelings with Qantas recruitment and thought I would share my experience to get it off my chest.

I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to progress to the 2nd stage - interview, 1 on 1, group activity ect but was unsuccessful in getting through to the sim.



Echoing the comments above, don't beat yourself up about it. It's hard getting through the entire process and unless you get the dreaded "Don't apply again" email, it doesn't mean they don't want you or that you aren't good enough, it just means at the moment, your application overall isn't as competitive as some others.

They are putting people through the defer (12 month) process just to give them time to gain more experience, improve their skills, polish up etc. before coming back. I know a lot of people who have been deferred for various reasons including, lack of recent flying, poor IFR knowledge, an average of median results across the assessment to that point i.e. Psych testing etc.

I also know that many of them have given up the chase and are looking elsewhere, with a sour taste in their mouth. The best piece of advice I ever got given was you have to be extraordinarily determined to make it in this industry. The speedbumps and challenges never stop coming and you will fail more than once (or 10 times). You have to want it more than anything.

Also, send them an email and ask for feedback. The QLink roadshow indicated that they are more than happy to provide feedback if requested and if it's appropriate to do so i.e. they don't think you're a closet psychopath. Definitely ask the question!!

EDIT: And stay positive! There are enough whingers and piss poor attitudes on here to stop a fleet of A380's getting off the ground (not everyone obviously) so don't let them get to you. Keep the chin up and keep swinging!

[nexttime]

I'll send an email and see what happens. I am not counting on a reply as the unsuccessful one stated they were unable to provide specific feedback on my performance.

Do they really give that don't apply again email ?

[normanton]

nexttime - my personal opinion. I would not send an email asking for feedback when they clearly state in the correspondence that they cannot provide feedback. It shows a lack of willing to follow rules/instructions - usually considered a bad personality trait in the aviation industry!

The only people who have been given feedback to my knowledge are those internal applicants.

Again, just my opinion. I would hate to be ruled out for future consideration based off an email.

[nefarious1]

Let’s be brutally honest here. The recruitment system is really not merit based. Everybody puts their best foot forward when they go through the process, but the people running around with their HR degrees select a number of pilot applicants based on a number of criteria. They select some GA, military, airline, internals and even some based on gender. That’s how it works. I know of internal check and trainers who “lacked merit” to become mainline SOs. Does that make sense? Of coarse not. It’s just a HR driven process. Just be persistent and keep applying. Your not a better or worse pilot than any others who get in, so don’t beat yourself up about it. And remember, there is life outside of Qantas.

[nexttime]

nexttime - my personal opinion. I would not send an email asking for feedback when they clearly state in the correspondence that they cannot provide feedback. It shows a lack of willing to follow rules/instructions - usually considered a bad personality trait in the aviation industry!

I had a think about it and I don't think it's a good idea to reply back. Recruitment are no doubt busy and the last thing they need is an email from an unsuccessful candidate asking for feedback when their email clearly stated it wasn't available. I think I know what to do and will work on some improvements and hopefully reapply in a year or two if recruitment is open.

[Guest123]

Does anybody have any insight as to why the monthly intakes are becoming "smaller than planned?" Is there, for example, a bottleneck in the training department, or is there no need for a large volume of new SOs at the moment?

[Fok]

I'm hearing an increase in hour requirements including multi crew. Pilots that attended the Qlink roadshow were asked why they weren't applying to Qlink and they answered because mainline was hiring.
It took them long enough to figure out that if you hire G.A guys and gals straight into mainline there will be no one to fill other positions like Qlink and other subsidiaries. 👏🏼

Anybody else heard of the increase in hour requirements?

[Flyboy1987]

I'm hearing an increase in hour requirements including multi crew. Pilots that attended the Qlink roadshow were asked why they weren't applying to Qlink and they answered because mainline was hiring.
It took them long enough to figure out that if you hire G.A guys and gals straight into mainline there will be no one to fill other positions like Qlink and other subsidiaries. 👏🏼

Anybody else heard of the increase in hour requirements?

Have heard similar rumours from qlink Pilots.

I assume their thinking is if they exclude ga pilots from mainline, they will want to work for qlink, which is not the case.
Qlink will become purely a stepping stone for people who never really wanted to be there in the first place, and will leave first chance they get.

[LongLats]

Qlink will become purely a stepping stone for people who never really wanted to be there in the first place, and will leave first chance they get.

That's was Qlink has been for the last +10 years. They've always been well aware of it too.

[*Lancer*]

Have heard similar rumours from qlink Pilots.

I assume their thinking is if they exclude ga pilots from mainline, they will want to work for qlink, which is not the case.
Qlink will become purely a stepping stone for people who never really wanted to be there in the first place, and will leave first chance they get.

Flyboy you seem to be in the know.

What percentage of Australian regional pilots want to work for a larger carrier, and what percentage of GA pilots would choose to follow that path via the regionals? Where do GA pilots want to work?

[havick]

Flyboy you seem to be in the know.

What percentage of Australian regional pilots want to work for a larger carrier, and what percentage of GA pilots would choose to follow that path via the regionals? Where do GA pilots want to work?

If they don’t really have a choice then the question is moot.

[Flyboy1987]

Flyboy you seem to be in the know.

What percentage of Australian regional pilots want to work for a larger carrier, and what percentage of GA pilots would choose to follow that path via the regionals? Where do GA pilots want to work?

In the past, the door to mainline for qlink Pilots has been shut, from my understanding. It’s currently open with qlink drivers getting start dates with mainline, sometimes with long waits as qlink is becoming understaffed.
Will this door stay open in the next 5-10 years?

Yes qlink are aware that they’ve been a stepping stone, but a stepping stone for other carriers which I don’t think they’ve been too impressed with, but they can’t blame pilots for leaving for cathay/Middle East.

As for where do ga pilots want to work? Mixed bag. But since VA has reduced minimums with hiring advertised for next year, i’ve spoken to quite a few pilots who have switched their cover letters from qlink to virgin.

[Flyboy1987]

Btw, the minimum I heard was time on aircraft plus 13 tonne.

[bagchucka]

is there still a january course?

how about february?

[Guest123]

is there still a january course?

how about february?

From what I can gather there still is, but they are running smaller courses than originally planned.

[Keg]

‘Smaller courses’ if/ when they occur are likely to be due more to training capacity than need.

Merry Christmas everyone. 2018 is likely to be another positive year for Qantas.

[ilikecheese]

Happy new year everyone.

It sounds like a positive kick-off to the new year with start dates awarded for Feb/Mar training courses on the 330 and Jumbo. Is anyone in the know on how many in a course/how often they'll run?

ILC

[A320 Flyer]

I’ve heard 13 courses this year.... evenly spaced throughout the year

[Guest123]

Does anybody know how start dates are allocated (once on the hold file)?

[Jetsbest]

Does anybody know how start dates are allocated (once on the hold file)?
From what I’ve heard the “official” answer is that newly-processed successful applicants are placed at the bottom of the hold file; start dates are offered “from the top down”.

but.... again anecdotally.... it’s not always that simple....🤔

[V24]

Are assessment days still being run or have they gone through the whole list?

[Flyboy1987]

Did anyone who was unsuccessful get any feedback after their assessment day, like we were told we would prior to attending?

[nexttime]

And after they've studied for the aptitude test maybe they can brush up on their customer service skills on how to manage a restaurant when **** hits the fan...

[V-Jet]

And after they've studied for the aptitude test maybe they can brush up on their customer service skills on how to manage a restaurant when **** hits the fan...

That's not a joke either, folks. It also gives you an idea of the mental understanding the people who 'run' the airline actually have of what an airline really does. Qf pilots got an email a few years ago explaining how to identify a 747!

If it were me (and I'm pretty confident I wouldn't get in) I would -LOVE- to question the questioner as to what restaurant/business experience they actually have, and in fact have they ever even owned, run or managed said business. IE: given their provable lack of experience in those types of matters, what the hell are they doing asking absolutely stupid questions they have no personal idea of the 'right' answer to?

I suspect it's partly about choosing 100% yes men* who will swallow drivel from their incompetent managers without question. And that is EXACTLY the sort of person I would NOT want in the LH seat on an aircraft I was travelling on, and unlike an HR drone, I DO know what I'm talking about.

*Being slightly facetious I suspect women only need be 10% yes men (lesbians even less so) given current attitudes to gender equality at QF.

[A/F Armed]

If you are going in for an interview it may be helpful to know that the restaurant scenario posed by the HR person at the interview is all about how you manage multiple issues at the same time. This comes straight from one of the pilots who sits on the recruiting panels. So it’s good information.
If it helps to make it more Aviation related just change the word restaurant for A380, Jumbo, 777, SAAB, Metro etc.
Change the term Restaurant Manager to Aircraft Captain.
The fussy customer is now a disgruntled passenger. The waiter with an attitude is now a flight attendant etc etc.

The questions are just to see how you will manage the situations that are being given to you. No different to being a pilot on whatever aeroplane you fly now in whichever seat you find yourself in. As a copilot, when the Captain falls over you are going to have to step up and take control of the situation.

Best of luck to everyone who’s applying. I’ve been told that recruitment will continue for a long time to come.










That's not a joke either, folks. It also gives you an idea of the mental understanding the people who 'run' the airline actually have of what an airline really does. Qf pilots got an email a few years ago explaining how to identify a 747!

If it were me (and I'm pretty confident I wouldn't get in) I would -LOVE- to question the questioner as to what restaurant/business experience they actually have, and in fact have they ever even owned, run or managed said business. IE: given their provable lack of experience in those types of matters, what the hell are they doing asking absolutely stupid questions they have no personal idea of the 'right' answer to?

I suspect it's partly about choosing 100% yes men* who will swallow drivel from their incompetent managers without question. And that is EXACTLY the sort of person I would NOT want in the LH seat on an aircraft I was travelling on, and unlike an HR drone, I DO know what I'm talking about.

*Being slightly facetious I suspect women only need be 10% yes men (lesbians even less so) given current attitudes to gender equality at QF.

[Who stole my meds]

If you are going in for an interview it may be helpful to know that the restaurant scenario posed by the HR person at the interview is all about how you manage multiple issues at the same time. This comes straight from one of the pilots who sits on the recruiting panels. So it’s good information.
If it helps to make it more Aviation related just change the word restaurant for A380, Jumbo, 777, SAAB, Metro etc.
Change the term Restaurant Manager to Aircraft Captain.
The fussy customer is now a disgruntled passenger. The waiter with an attitude is now a flight attendant etc etc.

The questions are just to see how you will manage the situations that are being given to you. No different to being a pilot on whatever aeroplane you fly now in whichever seat you find yourself in. As a copilot, when the Captain falls over you are going to have to step up and take control of the situation.

Best of luck to everyone who’s applying. I’ve been told that recruitment will continue for a long time to come.

And here in lies the real problem with modern interviewing. They're giving you a scenario which can be viewed as similar to how you'd handle issues as a pilot but a lot of people may not see it that way.

Why do it like this?

It's not right but until someone with a background in the particular role (ie pilots) takes back control of recruitment then nothing will change unfortunately.
I suspect that if that question were aviation based and not on a hypothetical restaurant they'd get more successful candidates.

[dragon man]

The announcement shortly of another 12 more 787 orders should keep the recruitment going along nicely.👍👍👍

[V-Jet]

The announcement shortly of another 12 more 787 orders should keep the recruitment going along nicely.👍👍👍

For Jet Connect, Network and Insert Entity here:)

Never forget, in pax terms 20 x 787’s is only 10 x 747/380’s. More of which have been and are scheduled to be retired. This is straight out of the 1944/5 Wehrmacht plan for European domination. As far as recruitment goes, it IS good news, and that has to be said. Unfortunately it’s because so many people at the top end have had enough of the bull**** and will be saying FU in no uncertain terms. Sadly, this will only enforce the Group Think at management level that all pilots are idiots. As recruits will very soon learn, Qf management is the wealthiest and at least level best (I’d argue far exceeding) the ‘best’ worst in the entire world! Their ineptness knows no bounds.

["Littlebird"]

If sitting in the back watching someone else do all the good stuff and you only aspire to work at QF, then by all means... remember it's SO time in your logbook.

Your mates or colleagues who did not want QF or could not get a job at QF will be logging FO time on 737/A320.

Which insurance policy out of the two options would you consider the best bet?

Speaking from life experience I guess.
L.B :ok:

[maggot]

If sitting in the back watching someone else do all the good stuff and you only aspire to work at QF, then by all means... remember it's SO time in your logbook.

Your mates or colleagues who did not want QF or could not get a job at QF will be logging FO time on 737/A320.

Which insurance policy out of the two options would you consider the best bet?

Speaking from life experience I guess.
L.B :ok:
By the time that recruit is bored doing the same again waiting for the 40yo captains to move on they'll be 737FOs with a little time to get to that point so....

Whatever works

[Transition Layer]

If sitting in the back watching someone else do all the good stuff and you only aspire to work at QF, then by all means... remember it's SO time in your logbook.

Your mates or colleagues who did not want QF or could not get a job at QF will be logging FO time on 737/A320.

Which insurance policy out of the two options would you consider the best bet?

Speaking from life experience I guess.
L.B :ok:

Moot point these days, with quick (1-2 year) 737 F/O upgrades available to those who want them and for those who wish to stay in the back seat, they can. All on very decent terms and conditions, which are more favourable than anything else in this country.

It’s why QF remains the first choice for the majority of airline candidates in Australia these days.

(Also) Speaking from life experience I guess.

[Keg]

The announcement shortly of another 12 more 787 orders should keep the recruitment going along nicely.������

Lol. That number is bouncing around a fair bit. I’ve heard 6. I’ve heard 8. Now I’ve heard 12.

I think of the options we ordered years ago, 8 have fixed dates in FY19/20. After that I don’t think we have any fixed date options left and need to find space in the Boeing delivery schedule. Half yearly results are out at the end of February. Announce the good news, how great the 787 is going, and order a few more. Fingers crossed.

[knobbycobby]

Got to remember that ultimately there are more 747s to be retired.
So whilst it’s welcome news it’s better to keep it in perspective.
Hopefully some Asian flying gets announced for it too.

[Beer Baron]

Never forget, in pax terms 20 x 787’s is only 10 x 747/380’s
I certainly will forget that part about the 787 Vs 747 as it is grossly incorrect.
In pax terms there are over 1000 more seats on 20 787's than 10 747's. The ratio is more like 3:2 than 2:1.

Besides, given this is about pilot numbers, replacing 1 aircraft with 2 requires twice as many pilots which would be a fantastic outcome!

[High_To_Low]

Any word as to when recruitment is expected to recommence?

[adam210]

how long does the hold file run at the moment, i've heard 6 months

[V-Jet]

I certainly will forget that part about the 787 Vs 747 as it is grossly incorrect.
In pax terms there are over 1000 more seats on 20 787's than 10 747's. The ratio is more like 3:2 than 2:1.

Besides, given this is about pilot numbers, replacing 1 aircraft with 2 requires twice as many pilots which would be a fantastic outcome!

Which is why I included 380’s. Broad brush, I was back of envelope accurate. Where I wholeheartedly agree with you is pilot numbers. What concerns me is massive downsizing of the airline.

[IsDon]

From reliable sources, for those hungry for information.

Recruiting is due to commence again in February.

155 on hold file as at December. Expect 10-20 each month with figures of 200 pilots required in calendar year 2018.

Obviously those that apply early this year are unlikely to start before the 155 already on hold so probably won’t start until October-ish.

[kookaburra]

Obviously those that apply early this year are unlikely to start before the 155 already on hold so probably won’t start until October-ish.

I don't believe the 155 say, get called up before any newer candidates.
You could go through recruitment now and be offered to possibly start in a few weeks.
My understanding is the best "ranked" candidates will get called up first.
You could in theory sit on hold indefinitely if other candidates keep turning up that perform better than you.

[IsDon]

I don't believe the 155 say, get called up before any newer candidates.
You could go through recruitment now and be offered to possibly start in a few weeks.
My understanding is the best "ranked" candidates will get called up first.
You could in theory sit on hold indefinitely if other candidates keep turning up that perform better than you.

Possibly, and that’s how it was done in the past. With HR turning the whole process upside down then who knows for certain. What I posted above is what I’ve been told by those who are in a position to know for certain.

Is your understanding from a reliable source, or just a gut feeling based on what happened last time? If the latter, then I suggest you’re wrong.

[Troo believer]

From Alan Joyce
So, I’m pleased to announce plans for the Qantas Group Pilot Academy.
We want to attract men and women – ideally, in equal numbers – to be the next generation of pilots on our network. To learn from the best. And to be the best.
Initially, the academy will train about 100 pilots per year. But, over time, we see potential for it grow – and be a centre of excellence in the Southern Hemisphere, with up to 500 pilots per year

[havick]

From Alan Joyce
So, I’m pleased to announce plans for the Qantas Group Pilot Academy.
We want to attract men and women – ideally, in equal numbers – to be the next generation of pilots on our network. To learn from the best. And to be the best.
Initially, the academy will train about 100 pilots per year. But, over time, we see potential for it grow – and be a centre of excellence in the Southern Hemisphere, with up to 500 pilots per year

Pity Australia doesn’t have the ATP requirement to fly airline ops like in the USA. There goes some of your bargaining power.

[Troo believer]

Pity Australia doesn’t have the ATP requirement to fly airline ops like in the USA. There goes some of your bargaining power.
The lead time for this sort of programme is at least 3-5 years. Qantas had better pull it’s finger out. The rate of projected retirements is averaging 60-100 per year in the next few years and increasing after that. If 100 senior pilots retire it requires close to 500 training slots as pilots progress up the promotion ladder. They’d better hurry up but judging by past performance the implementation gate will be missed. Together with a fleet renewal and retirement requirement the perfect storm is brewing with the Training sections being stretched for the foreseeable future. Most current Captains on the 380 and 747 have probably 5-8 years before they pull the pin.
Either way it will be great to see a new generation continue with a flying career.

[havick]

The lead time for this sort of programme is at least 3-5 years. Qantas had better pull it’s finger out. The rate of projected retirements is averaging 60-100 per year in the next few years and increasing after that. If 100 senior pilots retire it requires close to 500 training slots as pilots progress up the promotion ladder. They’d better hurry up but judging by past performance the implementation gate will be missed. Together with a fleet renewal and retirement requirement the perfect storm is brewing with the Training sections being stretched for the foreseeable future. Most current Captains on the 380 and 747 have probably 5-8 years before they pull the pin.
Either way it will be great to see a new generation continue with a flying career.

It’s not difficult to buy an existing certificate.

I agree there is a pilot shortage, however it’s a lot easier to mitigate in countries that do not require a pilot hold an ATP in order to be in the cockpit of airline ops.

[Brakerider]

Wonder if these new Trainees will be straight to Mainline, or filling the slots in JQ/Network/Link/Jetconnect as the more experience crew move up the ranks?

[havick]

Wonder if these new Trainees will be straight to Mainline, or filling the slots in JQ/Network/Link/Jetconnect as the more experience crew move up the ranks?

The article says QF group. So it looks like they’re trying to keep jetstar, link etc stocked. Of course some will go straight to mainline which is how they will sell this scheme to youngens that don’t know any different.

[FogBuster]

From Alan Joyce
So, I’m pleased to announce plans for the Qantas Group Pilot Academy.
We want to attract men and women – ideally, in equal numbers – to be the next generation of pilots on our network. To learn from the best. And to be the best.
Initially, the academy will train about 100 pilots per year. But, over time, we see potential for it grow – and be a centre of excellence in the Southern Hemisphere, with up to 500 pilots per year

So they can recruit a whole new generation of “cadets” to string along on empty promises of Qantas greatness only to toss them aside when the next HR dept thinks they know better...

[havick]

So they can recruit a whole new generation of “cadets” to string along on empty promises of Qantas greatness only to toss them aside when the next HR dept thinks they know better...

Pretty much sums it up.

[Blitzkrieger]

Question:

These threats and promises are not new. Have any of them come true before or are they simply words intended to plant a seed of doubt?

The so called academy is just another empty promise that only serves to muddy the waters.

[Seagull201]

Watching the morning show just now, QF are saying up to 5,000 applicants have registered or expressed an interest in the last 24 hours to training at the proposed Qantas Flying school next year (2019),
apparently the company needs 500 a year for their own requirements, whether this figure is correct or not, not sure.

My gut feeling is, who ever gets into this course and completes the required frozen ATPL (CPL/ME IR-ATPL subjects) programme, those persons shall be employed within the QF group, when ever it happens.
It's virtually guaranteed. It's very hard for anyone to convince me this won't be the case.

It appears on face value that most of QF's pilots in the future, shall come from this pool.
Other airlines such as SQ, LH, have their own cadet programmes or aviation schools, this doesn't surprise me.

The big question is, if someone wants to start pilot training these days, or in the near future and doesn't do their training at the new QF flying school,
does it mean a person could be disadvantaged in trying to get a flight crew position within the company?
As all the people training at the QF flying school could be at an advantage. Agree?

Looking at the big picture, if a person wants to train as a pilot (no experience or license) and they don't get into the REX scheme or train at the new QF school,
is it really worth it, for a person to get into a massive HECS debt (85k CPL plus ME IR and the rest) and do the hard grind in General Aviation?
Not sure, because if a person isn't flying for a regional or the main two groups, they're missing out on the money.

[CurtainTwitcher]

The so called academy is just another empty promise that only serves to muddy the waters.


If I put on my cynic's hat, I would argue this is cunning an attempt to monetise a crisis, or in accountant speak another create another GCU (Cash Generating Unit). You have to give him credit for attempting to turn a potential liability into a stream of cash for the shareholders.


“Over time, we see potential for the academy to become a competitive advantage for Australia in the region. It could train pilots for other airlines and grow into the largest academy of its kind in the southern hemisphere,” added Mr Joyce.

The academy will initially train around 100 pilots a year for direct entry into the Qantas Group, including Jetstar and regional carrier, QantasLink. Depending on demand from other parts of the aviation industry, this could grow to 500 pilots a year on a fee-for-service basis.

The best bit, get someone else to pay you for the pleasure, ie a State & Federal Governments. Note the euphemistic code for subsidies.

In establishing the academy, Qantas will partner with one of several existing training providers. It will also engage with Federal, State and Territory governments to discuss possible locations.
Qantas Newsroom: QANTAS GROUP ANNOUNCES PILOT ACADEMY (https://web.archive.org/web/20180222032902/https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-pilot-academy/)

or framed another way,
Mr Joyce said Qantas wanted to give the states and territories "a fair shake" to get involved in a project that could boost local economies.
Qantas plans to address a global pilot shortage by setting up what it says could be the southern hemisphere's largest flight academy. (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/qantas-plans-academy-amid-pilot-shortage)

[Keg]

My money’s on BAE Tamworth and suspect that’s who QF may already have in mind.

Ever since I found out there were only 1300 applicantsfor mainline after 9 years of not recruiting I (and others) have been telling our management that they’d likely face a critical shortage of suitable applicants by 2020.

I agree with CurtainTwitcher’s assessment. They’re looking to turn what would be an administrative/ cost burden were it to be a traditional Cadetship (where QF have to provide oversight and so on) into potentially a money spinner.

Of course the real key is selecting the right candidates. Let’s see how that plays out.

The other question is where does this place QLink’s future pilot program? Seems a bit of a waste in the greater scheme of things. It also has greater implications for the the Uni aviation courses if 18 year old HSC graduates start heading toward this Qantas Pilot Academy instead.

[Jeps]

My uninformed 2 cents but, next year at any point seems ridiculously optimistic, unless they are already quite a way down the garden path with this. It's always funny how they bring out the "5000 expressions of interest" line (in every industry mind you). So if the first lot of people begin training next year your still looking at around 2 years before you see them in the group. Now we are in 2021.

As Keg says the critical shortage would most likely have already begun. Keg and others will no doubt be able to give a far more accurate appraisal but at this stage are you guys who are in the tent completely certain that this thing will even happen and if so will it happen within the timeline given in the press release?

[Keg]

Best to work the timeline backwards. These are absolutely best case time frames.

Start early Jan 19.
Give notice to starters early Dec 19.
Have completed assessments early Nov 19 in order to review and pick your best group to kick off.
If there are (say) 1000 applicants they will interview about 500 or so. That will take at least 3 months so we are back at early August.
Those 500will he picked off the back of online testing completed in early to mid July which means applications should open about June.

Of course you can shorten that timeline a bit if you’re only going to take (say) 8-10 in the first month and then keep working the process as a selection ‘just in time’.

There’s also significant risk in recruiting for a training scheme where you don’t know where it’s to be held or who is going to run it.

[Stretch06]

Short of aligning with a current major flight training operator, (Keg may be heading in the right direction, ie BAe) I fail to see how this could be up and running in 2019. The large schools, FTA, BASAIR, CAE etc are all struggling to recruit and retain instructors as it is. Attempting to create a new operation with skilled and experienced instructors would be difficult.

[Rated De]

I fail to see how this could be up and running in 2019. The large schools, FTA, BASAIR, CAE etc are all struggling to recruit and retain instructors as it is. Attempting to create a new operation would with skilled and experienced instructors would be difficult. Everything they do is predicated on unlimited supply.

They may try to address this and control supply at the same time, but the fundamental issue remains unchanged; the shortage is structural, it is demographic.
I also concur that BAE Tamworth is the likely place. As i stated in another thread, is the only ILS for miles around! Throw in another bit of corporate welfare, and a few externalities and it is Australia at its finest!

They will be dragged kicking and screaming to the altar of reality, until then spare no expense to keep labour unit costs down!

[ANCDU]

Doesn’t Jetstar already have an established Cadet Program with CAE/Oxford at Moorabbin? It’s already set up and training pilots for the group, just rename the program and it’s done.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Potentially another "optic" here is that enables the Qantas Group to go to the Immigration minister and ask for Skilled Migration (rebadged 457's) visa's, and publicly justify it with a commitment to training locals.


Looking at the big picture, if a person wants to train as a pilot (no experience or license) and they don't get into the REX scheme or train at the new QF school,
is it really worth it, for a person to get into a massive HECS debt (85k CPL plus ME IR and the rest) and do the hard grind in General Aviation?
Not sure, because if a person isn't flying for a regional or the main two groups, they're missing out on the money.

This is the flip side, it may very will discourage many who do not make the training selection process, knowing that the risks of blowing their money without a prospect of solving the first job problem.

[Mill Worker]

I guess Joyce is worried that Cathay won't be able to supply Pilots in the required numbers.

[Icarus2001]

QF are saying up to 5,000 applicants have registered or expressed an interest in the last 24 hours to training at the proposed Qantas Flying school next year (2019)

That would be 208 every hour, including night time.

If you allow for a fifteen hour day more like 333 per hour.

I am calling bull**** on that.

Funny how it is never 4850 or 5080, always a nice round number.

[Jeps]

And completely irrelevant even if true! I'd like to express my interest in becoming the next CEO of Commbank. Pity I couldn't even define what a mortgage was without looking it up....

[Runaway Gun]

He said "up to 5,000 applicants..."

That could be like 2000, 500, or even one.

[Keg]

I know of a few Qantas crew who have signed up for further info on the website simply to keep informed as to what’s going on. (I’m not one of them.... I use PPRUNE or Qrewroom to find out what is going on! ;) :D ).

[Stretch06]

I know of a few Qantas crew who have signed up for further info on the website simply to keep informed as to what’s going on. (I’m not one of them.... I use PPRUNE or Qrewroom to find out what is going on! ;) :D ).

I did. Just out of curiosity

[Seagull201]

Go to the "Qantas Group Pilot Academy" website and you will see some brief details of the QF academy plans,
a person can register and submit their details at the bottom of the page.

I've seen this all before when there was a train driver shortage in Sydney, people from all walks of life show up on
the assessment day, various ages, qualifications and expectations, the same thing will happen with people hoping
to be aQF pilot, people will come from different ages, career paths, qualifications, etc.

Don't think everyone that apply's is really interested in aviation. No.

This QF pilot academy has been in the news continuously for 48 hours now and yes, i believe what they're saying, that
5,000 people have registered their interest, same story as when there was a train driver shortage a decade ago.
There will probably be over 10,000 people registering.

How many people apply for flight attendant positions each year?
Thousands of applicants, same thing will happen here.

I don't believe QF will have the capacity to train 200 new pilots a year, yet alone 500 a year, it's too many people at one facility,
not enough instructors,i believe they will probably get the students that finish the course, to do the instructing for a certain time frame.

They're my thoughts. Cheers.

[Jeps]

If it was news to all of you guys perhaps that’s somewhat telling. You guys are normally the reincarnation of Gladys Kravitz. Losing your touch. Hehe

[CaptainInsaneO]

$20 million is a lot to throw at a project, so they do look pretty serious but...

If all airlines are struggling to find pilots now, like as in - today, and it’s going to be years before this academy produces its first (inexperienced) pilot, I can’t see this academy being the fix that they need.

If they really have (up to) 5000 applicants, imagine how many interviews/ psych testing/ reviews etc they will have to do, both on acceptance into the academy and after graduating...forget months worth of work for HR - this will take years. Especially considering it’s taking some airlines over 18 months to process pilot applicants now, like as in - today, with all systems currently up and running.

Maybe is this all driven by HR, they’re successfully convincing everyone that this is the fix and they’ve just secured themselves years worth of work.

Flight schools are closing, there’s no instructors around anymore, so I don’t know how they’re going to get this up and running anytime soon. I agree, 2021 optimistically and again, that’ll be the first inexperienced pilot.

Also how much is this going to cost the poor student? We’re talking 6 figures but if there’s a good chance you’ll go to Qantas, would they charge a premium? $120,000? $140,000? I don’t know. I just hope that if someone forks out that sort of cash, that HR don’t just drop the program and pathway at their instant discretion as they’ve historically done.

[Icarus2001]

$20 million is a lot to throw at a project, so they do look pretty serious but...

Qantas made a PROFIT of $ 976 million (pre tax, which they will not pay) for the first six months of this financial year. So put it in context.

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-delivers-record-first-half-profit-invests-in-aircraft-and-training/

[CaptainInsaneO]

[QUOTE=Icarus2001;10062393]Qantas made a PROFIT of $ 976 million (pre tax, which they will not pay) for the first six months of this financial year. So put it in context.

Oh yeah...very true.

Also less than 10 months worth of work for some people, so I see your point.

[Rated De]

He said "up to 5,000 applicants..."


Could be kids with dreams too.

We stated the shortage was global. The research supports a structural and demographic shortage. Australia is no different.


Airline management with their adversarial employment models will eventually change. In the interim it will be more of the same, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

The curtain has been pulled back. For the first time the paradigm favours the employee.

It is delicious irony that airlines are now finding themselves acknowledging a shortage in a skill set that every waking hour of their HR/IR structures is dedicated to denigrating.

[Captain Nomad]

It is delicious irony that airlines are now finding themselves acknowledging a shortage in a skill set that every waking hour of their HR/IR structures is dedicated to denigrating.

Combined with the depression on terms and conditions, work/life balance within the industry and they might find that the number of people actually willing to go through with this training and career option might be significantly less than the number of 'tyre kickers.'

Not many kids walk around looking starry eyed toward an aircraft flying over anymore or are willing to sacrifice anything to achieve the dream.

[Keg]

Once you get rid of the tire kickers and the sticky beaks and then start whittling away st the candidate list you’re left with people who STILL have to be able to pony up some serious $$$ in order to undertake the course.

500 a year is 40 new starters every month. They’ll all need to do circa 150 hours for a CPL- although a proper airline flying training academy should be looking at more than the bare minimum.

Once you sort out the subjects the flying is done in roughly a 12 month time frame. So a minimum of 75,000 hours per annum. They won’t fly 7 days a week so it’ll be closer to 5 so that’s 260 available flying days- less if you knock out public holidays. It’ll be hard to average more than 8 hours stick per day per aeroplane so 8 x 260 is the total number of hours an aeroplane will do per annum. Once you include the 100 hourlies it’s going to decrease again. Back of the envelope calculations are somewhere north of 50 aeroplanes.

They’ll likely need an instructor for half to two thirds of the course so likely to need north of 50 flying instructors too. Realistically they’ll need closer to 70 I reckon

Can anyone realistically see this occurring at any existing facility in Australia? Can anyone seeing it happening in Australia ever? Where are they going to find 70ish flying instructors who are of a decent standard and aren’t trying to hour build or are recent graduates (which again is hardly the standard to be seeking)?

I wish them luck. I reckon the first graduates will come out no earlier than mid 2020.

[havick]

Once you get rid of the tire kickers and the sticky beaks and then start whittling away st the candidate list you’re left with people who STILL have to be able to pony up some serious $$$ in order to undertake the course.

500 a year is 40 new starters every month. They’ll all need to do circa 150 hours for a CPL- although a proper airline flying training academy should be looking at more than the bare minimum.

Once you sort out the subjects the flying is done in roughly a 12 month time frame. So a minimum of 75,000 hours per annum. They won’t fly 7 days a week so it’ll be closer to 5 so that’s 260 available flying days- less if you knock out public holidays. It’ll be hard to average more than 8 hours stick per day per aeroplane so 8 x 260 is the total number of hours an aeroplane will do per annum. Once you include the 100 hourlies it’s going to decrease again. Back of the envelope calculations are somewhere north of 50 aeroplanes.

They’ll likely need an instructor for half to two thirds of the course so likely to need north of 50 flying instructors too. Realistically they’ll need closer to 70 I reckon

Can anyone realistically see this occurring at any existing facility in Australia? Can anyone seeing it happening in Australia ever? Where are they going to find 70ish flying instructors who are of a decent standard and aren’t trying to hour build or are recent graduates (which again is hardly the standard to be seeking)?

I wish them luck. I reckon the first graduates will come out no earlier than mid 2020.

Perhaps a facility that was once used for training ADF and is now underutilized?

[Devil Dog]

It was only yesterday, they got rid of 100 pilots giving them VR!!...just another load of bull**** this guy continues to make up fairy stories with little challenge...hope QF survives...but won’t if continued to be run by thieves.

[Keg]

Perhaps a facility that was once used for training ADF and is now underutilized?

I said previously that BAE Tamworth seemed a good option. Do they have the capacity for 500 residential pilots at the one time? I wouldn’t have thought so. Do they have enough civvie QFIs? Could they even surge that much?

This is going to be a very, very difficult proposition as the issue they’re trying to solve (lack of pilots) is going to impinge on their ability to train the numbers they’re talking about.

[Jeps]

Could this be the RedQ of flight training?

[Stationair8]

You make some interesting points in your posts Keg, a lot of flying to be done to train that many cadets. Fifty flying instructors on the books, means 300 weeks annual leave just for starters, not to mention LAMES, sim instructors etc.

It will be a shame for the guys and girls currently in GA, are pushed aside for the the Qantas cadets in future recruiting.

Interesting times ahead in the business, lots of guys that learnt fly in the late 1960’s, are in the transition to retirement or retired. That leaves the next big flying training cycle in the
late 1970’s, are moving into that retirement phase.

[stormfury]

I said previously that BAE Tamworth seemed a good option. Do they have the capacity for 500 residential pilots at the one time? I wouldn’t have thought so. Do they have enough civvie QFIs? Could they even surge that much?

This is going to be a very, very difficult proposition as the issue they’re trying to solve (lack of pilots) is going to impinge on their ability to train the numbers they’re talking about.

If my memory serves me, each of the seven student buildings could accommodate about 30 people - although there was never that many at BFTS at once. As for the training staff, mix of military and civilian, were probably set up to train a maximum of 60ish students across three ‘classes’ at once. They also had to run the flight screening program.

I’d think that unless the background work for this had been started quite a while ago, the BAE staff may have started to look elsewhere for employment.

Probably the biggest question regarding the viability of this option is whether or not the aero club has capacity for Friday night drinks!

[Rated De]

When Red Q was announced with much fanfare, it seemed irrelevant that there was not a country, nor a base chosen other than 'somewhere in Asia', maybe Singapore, maybe Malaysia.

With Megaphone diplomacy Boston Bruce and the little chap announced JQ would have over 400 aircraft in Asia by 2020. JQ HK didn't meet the prima facie test of the Principal Place of Business criteria. He announced it anyway.

As it is with the death of investigative journalism, the rumour is reported as a given, little scrutiny is conducted and probing questions are discouraged as the advertising spend is vital for what is left of print media. As readership declines the power of any narrative control is lessened.

This idea in our summation is a response to a growing realisation that the shortage is real and sustained. Hastily cobbled together and ill thought out. Somewhere in there will be more corporate welfare.

However they need a new fleet and as far as pilots are concerned they are acknowledging that there is indeed a shortage. That is $20 million that won't be wasted on jollies and favourable press coverage for 'journalists' to go to Seatlle to pick up an aircraft that he describes as game changing, although he doesn't mention there are already 600 flying..

[dragon man]

How many LAMEs also? They won’t screw them on $$ either as they do their present ones.👍👍

[Rated De]

For the best part of three decades management held the upper hand.



The employee relations model is ill suited to the reality that demographics are not supportive of adversarial relations.




Governments were happy for real wages to decline, that is why wage growth is effectively nil. Employers outsourced, used 457 type visas and fear to control labour unit cost.


These two points have driven many new pilots (and new graduates) elsewhere as terms and conditions no longer provide a reasonable return on investment. One might quip the 'model' was too successful.

As it is in Europe and the USA, it is now in Australia: Qualified Pilots are in short supply.

This is another ill conceived, hastily cobbled together sound bite with as much substance as his other 'game changing' announcements.

The tide is turning.

[Jetsbest]

I note, with sadness, that the late, great Ben Sandilands' shoes are still empty... 😔

[Justin. Beaver]

Can someone tell me exactly what “non adversarial” industrial relations look like? Apart from gigantic cost blow outs because what it really means is union demands of all QF flight numbers being paid mainline rates or similar? Some details on what this would look like would be helpful - not just motherhood statements about “respect” and “taking your pilots with you” and naive and oversimplified pointing at Southwest Airline, which has recently has plenty of adversarial relations.

[Dark Knight]

I said previously that BAE Tamworth seemed a good option. Do they have the capacity for 500 residential pilots at the one time? I wouldn’t have thought so. Do they have enough civvie QFIs? Could they even surge that much?

This is going to be a very, very difficult proposition as the issue they’re trying to solve (lack of pilots) is going to impinge on their ability to train the numbers they’re talking about.

October 2017
BAE Systems Australia today announced that it would lease part of its Tamworth training facility to CAE Oxford Aviation Training Academy.
CAE Oxford will use the facility for training its commercial pilot customers. It is looking to expand its business from 2018 onwards to meet future training requirements and BAE Systems' Tamworth facility is ideally suited.

BAE Systems Australia will continue to deliver military training services to its current customers as contracted until December 2019 – the Australian Defence Force, Republic of Singapore Air Force, Royal Brunei Air Force and Papua New Guinea Defence Force.

The lease with CAE Oxford builds on the capability developed by BAE Systems at Tamworth.

BAE Systems Chief Executive Glynn Phillips said:
“We are working collaboratively with local community leaders to consider options for the site that will maximise the use of the facilities. Today’s signing is a great outcome.

“We are also engaging with our current customers and the Australian Defence Force regarding the provision of military training at the site.

CAE Oxford have just about taken over the complete set up

As Keg rightly points out where his figures outline the problems training organisations are unable to supply enough instructors now let alone the future.
Engineering is another significant problem.

[ADawg]

A few points.

1. Q will have to increase the HR department by X to cope with the administration of candidates. It doesn't seem to run that well now from the experience of myself and others.

2. How many CPL/ATPL holders are there in the Australian community that aren't active? An untapped resource perhaps?

3. Personally I'm opposed to any tax payer dollars going to such a program.

[Rated De]

Sure Justin.

Plenty of books to read, lots of journal publications too.

If you wanted to understand the 'partnership' versus 'adversarial' model then look no further than Southwest airlines.

The obsession your masters have with labour unit cost is like looking through the wrong end of the telescope, same picture but rather distorted.

Don't fear though, most airlines focus excessively on labour unit cost reductions. Qantas is not alone in that regard, but pick a metric of performance and you will find that a workplace with mutual respect, not in words like most modern corporates, but in action out performs those without.

By way of an example, Mr Joyce made a statement circa 2004 when handed the reins of Jetstar by Mr Dixon.

He copied the Ryan Air playbook of employee relations paraphrasing Ryan air doctrine;

'The idea was to recruit a vibrant start up team, burn them out, then get rid of them and put in a fresh team'.

Look through the list at Qantas in HR/IR many of the office holders have affiliations with Ryan air.

We would not expect any public change of sentiment, Mr Joyce and his structure detests pilots, but with supply dwindling and retirement rates increasing, Qantas like many modern adversarial structured IR/HR airlines will be dragged kicking and screaming to the modern reality; You need qualified pilots and treating them with contempt is not something you can actually afford anymore!


BAE Systems Australia today announced that it would lease part of its Tamworth training facility to CAE Oxford Aviation Training Academy.

Think practically, given Air Services deactivated the VOR and NDB network, where do training aircraft conduct ILS approaches on the east coast? Avalon in Victoria and Tamworth are about it. Essendon has overshoot issues off runway 26, depending upon configuration at nearby Melbourne.

Back to the story Alan, pilot shortage solved!

[Justin. Beaver]

What a typically vague, meaningless and motherhood-laden reply. Please feel free to share links or names of these articles. Southwest has had lots of industrial unrest with pilots in recent years.

The only “non adversarial” approach you mean is one where constraints are put on managerial prerogative. Why not just say so?

[rammel]

Hasn't this idea of a pilot training college been floated by Qantas previously? I think it may have been sometime around 2010-2012 but it may have been earlier. Once again it was a statement made at an AGM or a results briefing and then nothing ever came of it.

[Seagull201]

Listening to the QF bloke yesterday, where he spoke on both Channel's 7 and 9 morning shows,
QF are hoping to attract to the training programme, Year 12 HSC achievers with high marks or University educated people.

I'd guess the company will be swaying towards high academic qualifications during the initial and subsequent waves of recruitment for this type of programme,
due to the stakes being high, as a person will have to sign up (or through HECS) for a debt, i reckon of at least 120k, that's up to frozen ATPL level.
Not sure who will pick up the accommodation and daily meal allowance over 18 months, that does cost.

The rewards are high for anyone that is accepted and finishes the programme, they will more than likely be an F/O on an aircraft type, but if a person
fails any part of the theory or flying portion, then it could be a financial nightmare or stuck with a nice HECS debt and more than likely, will possibly have to complete
the rest of the training as an external student, meaning extra funds will be needed and the original job offer, may not be on offer anymore.

Remember all the CASA exams are computer based and a result is printed on completion, although the CPL exams aren't much of a challenge these days,
the Instrument Rating exam and some of the ATPL exams, especially flight planning can be a challenge and stretch most persons.

Most companies only give an applicant three attempts to make the grade for any given test, whether it's a written, flight test or aircraft type rating/endorsement.
If the grade isn't achieved in the required time frame, then the event is recorded as a fail.
What happens after that, is heartache, more money, study and the question, "does a person still want to continue"or what are the remaining options".

Although 5,000 people may have enquired for this new QF venture with the hope of being a QF pilot, it's not that straight forward, a person needs to meet the medical
and educational requirements, be able to commit to a massive debt that won't disappear overnight and have the ability to pass all aspects of the theory and achieve the required flying standards,
within the allocated time frame.

What i see happening is, the company will more than likely accept applicants that meet the entry requirements for this programme that have high academic qualifications, then once
they have exhausted this pool, they will possibly start lowering the entry educational requirements, just to maintain the training numbers, to enable the training business venture to continue being viable.

There could well be 5,000 enquiries now for this new programme, but once serious players get all the facts and understand what's really involved to be a pilot, the original number of enquiries will drop.
I can never see QF reaching the proposed 500 student training level at any single facility in a 12 month period, maybe just 100 or 150 and that's with a full strength of staff and training fleet.

Look at the example of all the major flying schools in the country, there's a shortage of grade 1 instructors in the market, now they're mostly advertising for grade 2 and three instructors, check the afap jobs section.
A similar thing will probably happen with this training programme over time, just to attract new students.

[Rated De]

What a typically vague, meaningless and motherhood-laden reply. Please feel free to share links or names of these articles. Southwest has had lots of industrial unrest with pilots in recent years.

The only “non adversarial” approach you mean is one where constraints are put on managerial prerogative. Why not just say so? Management prerogative can be a two way street. Most effective organisations choose to partner with their staff.

Have a read of this,

https://books.google.com.au/books/content?id=0wEKAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE72MV7IIHKWxo4u9d0GMQO65SwaJ66e5hnLZ3N7Hc-QTkJS8kng2glnS_vy8RAuhKiLKdQzZ1Kywd3iRbiTB_-ttKFajUDKoEiIN0q4p7M4Xm-wX3B98tjGYSx-eIQeZU3c4RYJ4

View the IR journals, start with the Asia Pacific directory. If you need more empirical evidence keep reading. As always, do what your types do and rush back to 'the Campus'. A campus is a place of knowledge, so do some reading.

Gittell, J. H., von Nordenflycht, A., Kochan, T. A., McKersie, R., & Bamber, G. J. (2009). Labor relations and human resource management in the airline industry. The Global Airline Industry, 275.

Turnbull, P., Blyton, P., & Harvey, G. (2004). Cleared for take-off? Management-labour partnership in the European civil aviation industry. European Journal of Industrial Relations, 10(3), 287-307.

Peterson, R. B., & Tracy, L. (1988). Lessons from labor-management cooperation. California Management Review, 31(1), 40-53.

Eaton, S. C., Rubinstein, S. A., & McKersie, R. B. (2004). Building and sustaining labor-management partnerships: Recent experiences in the US. In Advances in Industrial & Labor Relations (pp. 137-156). Emerald Group Publishing Limited.

Google scholar may provide you with endless references and empirical studies, careful though dissenting views are not welcome in a dystopian workplace!

[lucky86]

Hey guys,

How strict are the QF minimum requirements? I have near 500hr P1(U/S) and 1500hr multi crew exp. on B777 at CX, but unfortunately only 75ish hours P1 in a single engine (Cadet course).

Does that mean I have to hire a silly little single engine and fly around for another 100 hours? That would suck.

[Icarus2001]

Do that mean I have to hire a silly little single engine and fly around for another 100 hours? That would suck.

They are also quite picky about grammar, you know like words and stuff.

that's up to frozen ATPL level.

I see this phrase creeping into use in Australia. There is no such beast under our system of licensing.

[Ixixly]

Icarus, we all know "Frozen ATPL" isn't a thing here, but it's shorter than typing "Passes in all ATPL Subjects" and we all know what they mean, it's a colloquial term when used here.

Am I the only one who thinks these colleges are a terrible idea? I went through a semester at Griffith Uni about 10 years ago and the number of people who joined because "It looked cool" was staggering, many I wouldn't have thought should be in a cockpit back then and just as many now that I definitely don't think should be, a lot who dropped out after a year or so when they realised what it really involved.

I can see a Qantas run "Flight College" as being full of heartache, regrets and debt. There will of course be those who want it and will always want it, they'll go through and be happy as larry, but there will be many who drop out along the way with massive debt to their name or realise that Aviation is more than just high exit scores.

I'm all for people getting the opportunity to follow their dreams and having access to VET-FEE, HECS etc... but I really hope the people doing the recruiting are more than just your usual HR flunkies and that the reality of Aviation is clearly explained to these recruits beyond just flashy advertising showing shiny jets, shiny hats and good looking hosties.

[FogBuster]

I really hope the people doing the recruiting are more than just your usual HR flunkies...

HA! Genuinely funny stuff Ixixly!

[stormfury]

I can see a Qantas run "Flight College" as being full of heartache, regrets and debt. There will of course be those who want it and will always want it, they'll go through and be happy as larry, but there will be many who drop out along the way with massive debt to their name or realise that Aviation is more than just high exit scores.

No doubt this will be spun-off into a multi-part series documenting the trials and tribulations of these folk. Channel 7 will pay for the ‘exclusive access’ and a number of Q managers will get a handsome bonus when the final edit is nothing more than a fluff piece that highlights the 1:1 female to male trainee ratio and recent graduates living the high life in Sydney’s eastern suburbs.

I’m programming the DVR in anticipation!

[CaptCloudbuster]

As always, do what your types do and rush back to 'the Campus'. A campus is a place of knowledge, so do some reading.

Rated, you made my day, Bravo:)

[JPJP]

Can someone tell me exactly what “non adversarial” industrial relations look like? Apart from gigantic cost blow outs because what it really means is union demands of all QF flight numbers being paid mainline rates or similar? Some details on what this would look like would be helpful - not just motherhood statements about “respect” and “taking your pilots with you” and naive and oversimplified pointing at Southwest Airline, which has recently has plenty of adversarial relations.

Define ‘window licker’. Most of what you just wrote is either incorrect, lacks perspective or is driven by an agenda.

[Rated De]

Although 5,000 people may have enquired for this new QF venture with the hope of being a QF pilot, it's not that straight forward, a person needs to meet the medical
and educational requirements, be able to commit to a massive debt that won't disappear overnight and have the ability to pass all aspects of the theory and achieve the required flying standards,
within the allocated time frame.


It was just another sound bite for the ever dwindling readership of the mainstream media to reprint, let's them spend column width on something other than Domain adverts or Kim Kardashian tales...

They haven't turned a sod of earth, got an approval in place, a manual written just more words.

Just like JQ Hong Kong they rushed around with megaphone proclaiming they were gunna do this and that, when their application didn't even comply with the existing HK rules for Place of incorporation (Principal Place of Business) legislation.

[Arthur D]

A few points.

1. Q will have to increase the HR department by X to cope with the administration of candidates. It doesn't seem to run that well now from the experience of myself and others.

How funny! And, sadly, very accurate.

The first person appointed to the ‘project’ was from HR

The whole thing is being run by the new rostering department.

[knobbycobby]

So true Rated De

Idiots like Justin bleiber Are keen on making BS aspersions about minor pilot issues all whilst the Board and executive responsible from Jetstar should have been sacked for their abject and complete failure with JQ Hong Kong.

Hundreds of millions of dollars of Shareholders money was wasted in a poorly researched and poorly executed utter failure.
Could have paid 5 years of pilot costs across the group with the money they Lost.
Zero accountability. Same BS excuses for bad business acumen and poor research.
Fast forward to today and you see billions of dollars spent on share buybacks and f&*$ all investment in mainline fleet renewal. But that’s ok because you cancel Shares and bonuses boom at coward street. Fools gold.
S and P are hip to their game of kick the can down the road whilst snouting the trough. Alan’s response is to say they are poorly researched. 8 787s a fleet renewal it is not.
Spending no Capex on fleet renewal whilst fuel is low doesn’t make you the smartest guy in the room. Of course when fuel rises he’ll use that as an excuse for lack of profitability and blame the staff. Just like that simplistic fool Bleiber.
God help the poor executive that take over the basket case in ten years.
The current mob will have exited the building with hundreds of millions.
Short term thinking for short term executives and short term shareholders.
Shares and options should have a five to ten year vesting period. At least that way you’d see a smart balance of looking after shareholders AND the long term viability of the airline.
No wonder the public are disgusted that an airline CEO can make more than the CEO of any investment bank that is far larger and more profitable.

[Centre of Pressure]

and the number of people who joined because "It looked cool" was staggering, many I wouldn't have thought should be in a cockpit back then and just as many now that I definitely don't think should be

This is my biggest fear. They'll end up taking the spots of more dedicated people that'll go on to make great pilots! And I can only start to imagine how much more difficult it would be to teach the ones that do it because its "cool" and what they're like to fly with in a multi crew environment.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

One can just see the reality TV show hype, when the first gay disabled aboriginal pilot graduates from the Big Roo Flying Academy at Tamworth.

On winning the Honourable Barnaby Joyce best cadet trophy, the new Qantas pilot told the audience how he had a dream to fly ever since seeing one of those clapped out flying machines land at their remote Arnhem community bringing in supplies of traditional KFC.

His vision was to be a pilot with the worlds safest airline, and truly thanked the management and the incredible HR support team for giving him that opportunity. He looked forward bringing his life experiences to flight deck, and hoped one day to be the B787 fleet manager and then eventually CEO of Qantas.

[Ken Borough]

CLX should stick to his day job if he has one. His racist, homophobic and bigoted post is simply appalling. It should be removed. :\:\

[H-Dog]

CLX should stick to his day job if he has one. His racist, homophobic and bigoted post is simply appalling. It should be removed. :\:\

Agreed.

As much as I disagree with the current Qantas HR process if it prevents me from one day sitting next to guys like CLX or abaderrr than I would tick that up to a win.

[ComradeRoo]

Agreed.

As much as I disagree with the current Qantas HR process if it prevents me from one day sitting next to guys like CLX or abaderrr than I would tick that up to a win.

I Agree,
It will be rather hard to pass a psych test while being unable to differentiate contextual sarcasm from a statement of opinion.

Comrade
:E

[jetlikespeeds]

CLX should stick to his day job if he has one. His racist, homophobic and bigoted post is simply appalling. It should be removed. :\:\

Hush now Ken, CLX was probably just highlighting the shambles that HR is turning the industry into. Just ask the cadets that have joined Mainline recently from subsidiaries etc what the ratio of male vs female cadets that HR culled was.

[Jetdream]

Did I miss something in the past or is this a new requirement that internal applicants must have completed 24 months service with their current QF group employer?
Just noticed it at the bottom of the minimum criteria page.

[wishiwasupthere]

And no more Year 12?

[Seagull201]

And no more Year 12?

In the past, QF displayed on their pilot career website, that an applicant needed to show passes in Maths, English and Physics subjects, which were equivalent to year 12 standard,
or have completed some bridging course, which would be acceptable to them.

I recall, Rex also requesting the same item in the past, in order for an applicant to meet their minimum educational standards, but that item has been removed, Virgin have done the same,
it appears nobody is asking for year 12 HSC results, as a requirement, to enable an application form to be submitted by an applicant.

If a person needs to do these courses, they're available via distance learning, just navigate the web, it will take about a year to complete each subject.

I don't think anybody has got into QF or it's group of airlines, without demonstrating they have reasonable marks in the HSC or posses other qualifications, as a person won't be competitive enough.

The latest Virgin flight crew ad. on the afap website, best summarised the process and outcome once a person submits their application and the outcome of their journey through the selection process.
The ad. advised the following, which would be the same or a similar response from QF , in relation to an applicant's application.

How do I know the status of my application?
We will acknowledge the initial receipt of your application.
We plan to communicate advice of the status of your application within two months initially, reducing to one month after we deal with the large numbers received after the invitation for applications initially open. The advice will indicate that:

you have been progressed to the next stage,
you are not competitive to be progressed at this time but will remain active, or
your application will not be progressed further.

At the end of the day, it's not the end of the world if a person doesn't get into QF, Virgin, Jetstar, other airlines also recruit AU pilot holders, such as FlyDubai, CX, Vietnam's various airlines.
It depends what lifestyle a person is prepared to accept and where they want to live.

Not everybody will get into QF and flying isn't the only thing in life.

Cheers.

[morno]

As much as I disagree with the current Qantas HR process if it prevents me from one day sitting next to guys like CLX or abaderrr than I would tick that up to a win

Ohh FFS, really? Are you that stuck up that you can’t detect even the slightest bit of sarcasm? :ugh:

Maybe I should be thankful that it attracts people like you, and that people like myself can fly with normal people who have a sense of humour and can have a joke during the flight.

morno

[Jeps]

Seagull, I personally know someone who was employed into the QF group within the past 18 months that had not completed YR12.

[Airbus A320321]

Did I miss something in the past or is this a new requirement that internal applicants must have completed 24 months service with their current QF group employer?
Just noticed it at the bottom of the minimum criteria page.

That is new, I know of some JQ guys who only spent 6 months or so there before starting at QF. Probably JQ or Qlink trying to stem the flow of pilots going to mainline.

[TXZ]

I am a Y11 student at Victoria and I am pretty thrilled after hearing this news! But...like what everyone has discussed: Is it really FEASIBLE? It's like building a new private school-- a high amount of space, instructors and HR members are required. How could, and where Qantas get so many staffs at once despite instructors storage?
Good luck Qantas. And hope, their plan would really work.

[timmy123]

I am thinking about applying to Qantas... Can't find much info online.
Wondering if they have any short-term contract, or permanent only.
Also, are they many expats? Maybe 30%?
How many pilots in total? How many block hours are expected each year?

[cessnapete]

Why do QF /Jetstar etc. and other Asian carriers, employs S/Os as "cruise only pilots"?
Surely it is safer to have three fully trained co-pilots on the flight deck sharing the landings, and getting experience.
BA for example only operate with fully type rated co-pilots, necessary of course as many shorter 777/787/744/A380 LH routes operate with a two crew flight deck.

[Keg]

A 787/ A380/ 744 F/O is likely to average about three PF sectors a month. Very difficult to share those around with two other people.

Safer? Skill level would likely decrease further.

Certainly much more expensive.... and therein is a big reason why companies have S/Os.

[Keg]

I am thinking about applying to Qantas... Can't find much info online.
Wondering if they have any short-term contract, or permanent only.
Also, are they many expats? Maybe 30%?
How many pilots in total? How many block hours are expected each year?

There’s a lot of info buried back in this thread.
No short term contracts. Permanent only.
Not many expats. Mostly Aussies from our rich multicultural history.
About 2500 pilots in mainline.
About 800 stick hours per annum.

I put a post up about S/O pay a bunch of pages back.

[ruprecht]

Why do QF /Jetstar etc. and other Asian carriers, employs S/Os as "cruise only pilots"?

It’s the airline industry.

It doesn’t matter what the question is, the answer is always “money”.

:)

[C441]

About 800 stick hours per annum. …on the A330 (often more), 744 and A380. It's closer to 950 for most 737 pilots at the moment.

[josephfeatherweight]

About 800 stick hours per annum.
That'd be about 10 "stick hours" and 790 hours fat, dumb and happy watching the automation magic, isn't it?
TIC, friends, calm down...

[SandyPalms]

Is Qantas actually running courses at the moment? I’ve heard through the grapevine that the latest 787 was delayed due to the problems in crew training (we all know it has nothing to do with Network/Jetconnect), to allow them to get ahead of the curve and stop the need to spend huge amounts of money in Singapore.

[CurtainTwitcher]

I’ve heard through the grapevine that the latest 787 was delayed due to the problems in crew training
Didn't you get the memo? "We let one go" because of angst and bad Qi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi)? If they can shut down an airline for red ties they can certainly cancel an order because the plebs had the temerity to hold meeting about recent developments that could delay even further what is the possibly the worlds slowest airline promotional system.
/s

[TXZ]

Is Qantas actually running courses at the moment?
Apparently, Qantas did have cadetship programs a few years back but its Subsidiary company Jetstar did have cadetship programs last year and it again opened the application.

[maggot]

…on the A330 (often more), 744 and A380. It's closer to 950 for most 737 pilots at the moment.

Yeaaaahh nah. My upcoming leave will prevent me from bouncing on my running 900, on the bus.

[timmy123]

There’s a lot of info buried back in this thread.
No short term contracts. Permanent only.
Not many expats. Mostly Aussies from our rich multicultural history.
About 2500 pilots in mainline.
About 800 stick hours per annum.

I put a post up about S/O pay a bunch of pages back.

Got it!! Very helpful!!

[Rated De]

If they can shut down an airline for red ties they can certainly cancel an order because the plebs had the temerity to hold meeting about recent developments that could delay even further what is the possibly the worlds slowest airline promotional system.
/s Noted tongue in cheek...

With a SH command at BA another 'legacy' carrier running around 7 years, it is my understanding, were one want to stay within range of schools,family etc on the east coast, then a SH command at Qantas is circa 20 years...

Qantas' only card is 'living in Australia' something they have aggressively defended in years past, whilst simultaneous undermining everything a job at Qantas (including a career path) was about.

With EK now outsourcing to CAE, Qantas may soon realise that their home ground advantage is undermined by Asian carriers with decent commuting contracts.

Demographics also will undermine their fear driven adversarial IR model.

[Ollie Onion]

Out of interest what does the medical assessment involve?

[Far Canel]

Does the 12 month before reapplication still apply for All QF group positions?

[morno]

Hooray! Finally some common sense has prevailed in regards to the education requirements. Well done Qantas.

[TimmyTee]

Good luck to all the internal and external applicants this time round!
Question- should the 33% of cadets that were rejected last time even bother again? They've been treated rather like dirt thus far.

[theheadmaster]

Hooray! Finally some common sense has prevailed in regards to the education requirements. Well done Qantas.

Really? Dumbing down the job is common sense?

[rep]

Oh please headmaster.

I know plenty of pilots who never did year 12. Doesn't mean they cant be good at the job! Infact based on their ability when I have flown with them, I would rate them quite a high chance for getting into mainline.

Definitely better than some of the talent thats been getting in thats for sure!

[Roj approved]

Before I kick it off, some fodder for those that want to attack me.

Yes, I have English, Maths, Physics and a Uni degree.

Yes, I was on the holdfile at QF for 2 ½ years before being told “don’t call here anymore”.

Yes, I was really bitter about it, but I got over it and am happy enough with my job, but more important I am super happy with my life outside of work.

Yes I work for the group,

No, I won’t be applying.

So here goes.

QF have been caught with their pants down, no recruitment for years, long wait times for upgrades, the shutdown, fear of redundancy, LWOP (so pilots could go and see how the rest of the world live), and now they have to drop the very requirements that allowed them to pick and choose the applicants.

HOORAY everyone say out there in Regional and GA Land.

Get your CV’s updated I say, tout suite, ditch the English, Maths or Physics courses, finish off your ATPL’s, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. If you want to fly for the big boys, make sure you are ready to do it in the next couple of years.

But let’s look at this from another angle.

QF are going through a “game changing time”.

Shiny new aircraft, new routes, new uniforms, but what else, new contract terms for the 787, new minimum education standards for applicants, a new deal with Jetconnect, a new cadet program at the new flying school, a new A320 operation in the West.

So, they need to start ramping up, they are training flat out onto the 787 (IMHO the real reason they didn’t take 787 no. 9), backfilling onto the other fleets, they can’t release 737 pilot to go to other fleets, they’ve even ramped up training on the 747 for new hires and upgrades to F/O and Capt, all this on a fleet that is supposed to be dying?

With all this going on they struggle to attract applicants because the prospect of sitting in the back seat for 3 to 10 years is not everyone’s Cup of Latte.

There are pilots in J*, Virgin, REX and all the “Links” with a “letter of intent” from QF recruiting who, if they haven’t already, are probably on the verge of a command and the QF 787 S/O training wage just doesn’t stack up.

They could get lucky, as a lot have, and get a 330, 380 or 747 S/O slot, but who can take the chance? And how long before you can get back to a window seat?

So what do they do to crew these new aeroplanes? Well, QF have looked around and wondered, why don’t these Regonal/GA types apply here? We are the best airline in the world, hell, we are “changing the game”:)

Oh, they don’t have year 12 Maths, English or Physics, they couldn’t possibly be good enough for QF.

So, let’s look to the subsidiary’s to fill the spots. WHAAAAT, these pilots don’t have English/Maths/Physics, how do they possibly fly Jet/turboprop aeroplanes? :rolleyes:

So, let’s send out an internal memo spouting how progressive we are that we now recognise all the hard work you pilots have put in to get where you are and yes, the study you’ve done is now “equivalent” to those other subjects and we’d love to have you working for us, because we are in the **** big time. :ugh:

So, if they get a whole load of internal applicants, then open it up to Joe GA, they’ll probably get the 200 -300 pilots they need to fill in the 3-4 years before the Sausage Center of Excellence starts pumping out compliant, cheap, indebted pilots to fill the back seats in the future world domination plans.

But what does this really mean for the future?

Firstly, QF must have pilots, to the detriment of all other subsidiaries. So who is going to fly the Dash 8’s, 717’s, F100’s? Hell even Network are struggling to crew the shiny QF painted A320’s.

Secondly, I’m really happy we can now have all our study recognised as.....what? A diploma?

How much does your standard school leaver with a diploma earn? Certainly not what we think we are worth flying shiny Jets around the sky.

So, to answer the questions:
Firstly, 457 visas:ugh: 2 years only, (the companys are pushing for 4). Bring in a compliant workforce on the promise of a great lifestyle job in sunny Australia. It’s pretty hard to fight back if you are under threat of having your visa revoked. (Whether they can actually do it or not)

And B: if you pilots are just basic school leavers, with a “diploma” then why should we be paying you all this money to sit in the back and do nothing, I mean, we helped you out, trained you at our (your) expense, and now you want to turn around and get paid like a Uni Graduate, hell, you don’t even have English, Maths or Physics:=

B scale anyone?

Now, I know I’m cynical, I never used to be, but I think this “Industry” did it too me. If you don’t think it can happen here, have a look at what’s been going on in Cathay and the big US airlines, Norwegian, Ryan Air etc.

The constant moving of the deck chairs, Jetconnect, Q’Link, Jetstar, National Jet, J* NZ, Network, the MOU, it’s all part of a much bigger Industrial picture.

Unfortunately, we fall into the same trap every time, we only look at the hand with the shiny Jet in it, we never look to see what they have in the other hand which is behind their back:confused:

So, if you are eligible, apply the **** out of it, apply to everyone, if you miss out on QF, you might get a gig at J*, VA, or the others. There is a “pilot shortage”, they just don’t want to admit it.

But, when you get a job, join a Union, campaign hard, be Industrially savvy, don’t trust them when they show you the shiny Jet, but most importantly of all, STICK TOGETHER. It’s our only chance against these bastards:ok:

[chickoroll]

I’m guessing the requirements will knock pretty much all of the JQ cadets out applying also. Couldn’t imagine many of them having 250hrs command time of anything.

[Rated De]

So, if you are eligible, apply the **** out of it, apply to everyone, if you miss out on QF, you might get a gig at J*, VA, or the others. There is a “pilot shortage”, they just don’t want to admit it.
It is a demographic structural shortage.

Qantas IR succeeded, they drove terms and conditions to the gutter. They kept down labour unit cost. People no longer see aviation as a well remunerated rewarding career that requires a long term financial and study commitment. Bravo Qantas IR, Oldmeadow did it! He killed the golden goose.

Qantas pilots call it a wasted decade. They grounded it, locked everyone out, called it 'terminal' then miraculously transformed it, all while not ordering a single aircraft for mainline. They did benefit personally.

Like somehow a 787 with LN 615 being 'a game changer' and denying a career path for their own pilots, they now claim to want a 'flight training' academy (taxpayer on the hook no doubt)

Qantas management have basked in their own magnificence for the years following the 'transformation' The reality is they are dollars short and years late.

Watching it is rather amusing. Alan Joyce was Ireland's greatest export..

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Rated De
Mate you are soo spot on, airlines in this country have been constraining the T & C's of Australian pilots since Ansett went broke. The fact is this shortage has been on for 18 years at least and now the romance has gone out of the game. There just isn't as many kids out there wanting to be pilots anymore, theres more money and a better lifestyle doing other stuff. The funny thing is they (management) just didn't see this coming and now a major capacity constraint is retarding the expansion of ALL Australian airlines. Yes girls and boys its called a MAJOR PILOT SHORTAGE that can't be fixed by hiring DEC's or from OS.

Enjoy the show.
SN

[Icarus2001]

Some interesting points ROJ APPROVED and I agree with the basic thrust of your post.

Except these points...

Hell even Network are struggling to crew the shiny QF painted A320’s.

Pretty ease to crew it since it is a seagull at present.

have a look at what’s been going on in Cathay and the big US airlines, Norwegian, Ryan Air etc.

Well Ryan Air, or Mr O more specifically had to eat a big slice of humble pie and increase pilot pay.
In the US I understand there are bonuses now and also I keep seeing ads everywhere for the E3 visas trying to coax Australians to the US.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/annual_report1617-part6.pdf?v=1508473632

Page 3 on the above link shows the number of each type of pilot licence issued and held.

The highlight is that numbers seem to have stabilised after falling off a cliff about ten years ago but still declining.

In 2013/14 annual report CASA said they issued 533 ATPLs in the 2016/17 report they issued 190. Bloody big drop.

In 2013/14 there were 7,287 ATPL holders in 2016/17 there were 7240. A modest drop.

Have a read.

[morno]

Really? Dumbing down the job is common sense?

:rolleyes:

Because you need to be a genius to fly an aeroplane.

If you think that you need to have passes in maths, science and English to be able to fly an aircraft, please tell me how the rest of the world must do it.

["Littlebird"]

It's only cooking and it won't be called a shortage...carnage perhaps.
Can you imagine WHEN not IF, the major guns in Asia and the Middle East start recruiting in hundreds for Australian based roles. Aussies and E3's are becoming the norm in the USA. Very soon the majors will also be singing aussie aussie aussie! The US Air Force is crying for pilots. I know of a guy in the US finalising plans to fast track experienced foreign commercial pilots to the US Airforce for 5 years, then guaranteed placement with one of the majors.
This is only the beginnings.
L.B

[bafanguy]

The US Air Force is crying for pilots. I know of a guy in the US finalising plans to fast track experienced foreign commercial pilots to the US Airforce for 5 years, then guaranteed placement with one of the majors.

Littlebird,

OK...ya just can't just leave that hangin' with no more details. :eek:

I'd be VERY surprised the USAF would take foreign nationals into the service for a mere 5 year commitment, if at all...national security and so forth.

If anything, with the current tour for US citizens at 10 years after getting their wings (the reserves and national guard would be shorter), the commitment for US citizens needs to be shortened to attract more aspirants.

Is your friend actually in contact and working with USAF brass or just hatching a plan yet to be presented, without a response from the USAF ?

[dr dre]

I’m guessing the requirements will knock pretty much all of the JQ cadets out applying also. Couldn’t imagine many of them having 250hrs command time of anything.

You don’t need 250hrs command for an ATPL. You only need 70hrs command then the rest can be ICUS, which cadets in most airlines log when PF.

[maggot]

Littlebird,

OK...ya just can't just leave that hangin' with no more details. :eek:

I'd be VERY surprised the USAF would take foreign nationals into the service for a mere 5 year commitment, if at all...national security and so forth.

If anything, with the current tour for US citizens at 10 years after getting their wings (the reserves and national guard would be shorter), the commitment for US citizens needs to be shortened to attract more aspirants.

Is your friend actually in contact and working with USAF brass or just hatching a plan yet to be presented, without a response from the USAF ?
Yeah I must say I have some resounding scepticism for that claim

[bafanguy]

Yeah I must say I have some resounding scepticism for that claim

Well, it would be quite the Grand Plan. :)

The USAF has admitted to this. Not sure what "experimenting" means but it would involve US citizens:

“Gen. Wilson said the Air Force is experimenting with partnering with universities to bring in students who have already gone through their aviation programs. Those students would then go through an abbreviated Air Force pilot training program in the T-1, potentially cutting the timeline in half, he said.”

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/02/13/air-force-2019-budget-will-grow-pilot-training-pipeline-as-service-fights-severe-shortage/



Perhaps Littlebird will return and fill in the details.

[stormfury]

Another, somewhat FJ centric, take on it here:

https://warontherocks.com/2018/02/air-force-crisis-part-pilot-retention-matters-right-now/

This Phoenix plan is an interesting one. I wonder if $100k and preferential treatment is enough to make up for a seniority number a bit further down the list.

‘One non-traditional solution being panned is Phoenix Aviator. In lieu of a traditional bonus, pilots who agree to stay would be eligible for a $100,000 bonus upon separation. In return, they would receive an airline transport rating and the airlines would grant preferential treatment to military pilots who have served at least 15 years. The airlines are supportive.’

[Global Aviator]

You don’t need 250hrs command for an ATPL. You only need 70hrs command then the rest can be ICUS, which cadets in most airlines log when PF.

This is a very valid point. Nothing wrong with PICUS if it is done correctly with a system in place.

However the magenta line following generation merely think a PF sector qualifies as a PICUS sector. Management allow this as imagine the extra cost should real PICUS be required. How the CASAs of this world let them do it amazes me.

No not cadet bashing, just feel some real command time is needed and if not that like the ole 500 hours days then some real PICUS with real decision making. That means if the Capt has to assist or suggest well then that’s not PICUS is it?

Or am I being to harsh?

[Ollie Onion]

^^^ maybe a bit harsh, I encourage my FO’s to feel free to assist or suggest if they think I am missing something, to me a PICUS sector is you allow the FO to carry out the normal P1duties such as the Cabin Crew Briefing, Techlog Review, Fuel Check / Decisions and any liaising with the Engineers..... all under my supervision of course and with appropiate guidance where necessary, otherwise how do they learn?

[Global Aviator]

Ollie,

I agree totally. My point being is that PICUS is logged from day 1 on a normal PF sector.

Done your way is what it should be. Why does a cadet need to be worrying about command or PICUS hours day 1? It’s not needed for at least 3 years. Even better have the airline set up a PICUS training path and program.

Or go get real command hours.

Apologies if my wording was misleading.

[*Lancer*]

Global, I would think a few thousand hours PF for an Australian RPT operator satisfactorily meets the requirement to tick the ATPL box. Likewise counting up night hours and cross country hours is all a bit arbitrary - it just happens in the background. Having an ATPL doesn’t have much to do with getting a LHS position anyway.

[chickoroll]

dr Dre- QF have a minimum 250 hrs PIC for the internal application ATPL not required, just exams completed.

[IBE8720]

^^^ maybe a bit harsh, I encourage my FO’s to feel free to assist or suggest if they think I am missing something, to me a PICUS sector is you allow the FO to carry out the normal P1duties such as the Cabin Crew Briefing, Techlog Review, Fuel Check / Decisions and any liaising with the Engineers..... all under my supervision of course and with appropiate guidance where necessary, otherwise how do they learn?

They learn by showing initiative and being proactive. The young pilots might need to look up the definition, by doing so, they would be proactive.
ICUS is a training status, should be nothing more. Turning up to a job interview with 3,000hrs ICUS, is as relevant as having an 3,000hrs in your logbook.
There is a reason airline's specify PIC time when recruiting or upgrading. Otherwise,we should just give every CPL a Command straight out of flying school.

Picking up the Tech Log, consulting on fuel etc is part of everyday life. Appropriate supervision?? Who is to say what is appropriate? A less than reputable pilot in the left seat who shows a flagrant disregard for policy and procedures, but he is a good guy so we take his word as gospel on operational matters.

I came across a pilot the other day who thought he should be given a DEC at an airline becaue he met the requirements with his ICUS time?
F/O's are co-pilot's, not co-captains. It is not a commitee meeting. While during everyday, normal operations, every decision should be run by both pilots for input and contribution, when the Captain needs to make a decision, they should be free to make that decision without fear and hesitation of hurting the other pilot's feelings and offending his sensibilities.

If that is too harsh, then when I become a Captain, I would appreciate it if my airline changes it's policy and absolves me of any responsibilty in the event my First Officer makes an error or gets me involved in a violation.

Heavy wears the Crown,the position should be respected by those in it, and those aspiring to it.

(this post makes no reference to the calibre of pilot or training in any airline. just an opinion of the industry)

[Icarus2001]

Otherwise,we should just give every CPL a Command straight out of flying school.

Err WE do give them a command. On a C172, C206, C210 C310 etc etc

That is exactly what a CPL is.

[IBE8720]

Err WE do give them a command. On a C172, C206, C210 C310 etc etc

That is exactly what a CPL is.

Seeing as we are discussing ICUS in an airline, obviously I was talking about an airline Command. But I suspect you knew that.

[Icarus2001]

Well played with a straight bat sir.

Cannot disagree with your comments. The ICUS "program" at my place of employment is woefully inadequate, not structured or even understood by the supervising captains. Mainly due to lack of resources put into it.

[Tankengine]

Well, the ICUS “program” at my major airline seems to work just fine.
Amazing how a thread on Qantas recruitment attracts so many posters with zero knowledge of either Qantas or recruitment! ;)

[QldPilotGuy]

Speaking of QF recruitment, I thought I read that QF had opened EOI for Flight Crew, but absolutely nothing on the jobs website.

Anyone got any info ?

[Popgun]

Speaking of QF recruitment, I thought I read that QF had opened EOI for Flight Crew, but absolutely nothing on the jobs website.

Anyone got any info ?

Yes, QF Mainline Second Officer internal recruitment has begun again.

The window for QF group employees has reopened from March 6th to 19th. External recruitment is likely to begin again after that.

They have removed the HSC subjects or alternative Bachelor degree requirements.

I do (again) love the caring way that internals will only be given a start date (and therefore a seniority number) once they are ‘released’ from service to their current operation. (sarcasm)

Watch and weep again that externals will have a better career by virtue of a much higher seniority number.

PG

[QldPilotGuy]

Thanks PG, appreciate the update.

[dragon man]

Yes, QF Mainline Second Officer internal recruitment has begun again.

The window for QF group employees has reopened from March 6th to 19th. External recruitment is likely to begin again after that.

They have removed the HSC subjects or alternative Bachelor degree requirements.

I do (again) love the caring way that internals will only be given a start date (and therefore a seniority number) once they are ‘released’ from service to their current operation. (sarcasm)

Watch and weep again that externals will have a better career by virtue of a much higher seniority number.

PG

Except of course for those lucky cadets years ago who were given seniority numbers by an X chief pilot even thou they were not employed by Qantas at the time.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Seems more legit allowing the pilot in the RHS logging PF time as ICUS as opposed to the whole crew logging all that time spent in the bunk.

[JPJP]

Seems more legit allowing the pilot in the RHS logging PF time as ICUS as opposed to the whole crew logging all that time spent in the bunk.


I think you may have missed the point. If there’s any member of an airline crew that cares about “logging time”, it’s a scam. ICUS is a scam; invented by airline management to get unqualified pilots into a seat. It’s that simple.

The only “time” that a real airline crew cares about logging, is for the purposes of money or regulatory (duty/block etc.) time. If an airline is so desperate that the pilot sitting in the right seat isn’t fully qualified and licensed as a first officer, it’s a management scam. And it’s all about saving money. Not safety.

BTW - you should want the time in the bunk to be logged. For pay and duty. Ask an Emirates pilot why. Here’s a hint - it’s a scam.

[Jetsbest]

You said it!
QF Mainline Second Officer internal recruitment has begun again.

Not Q-link, not Jetconnect, not Jetstar, not Sunstate, not Eastern etc, but QF Mainline Second Officer internal recruitment has begun again.

While the recruitment processes may be similar, &/or driven by the same ‘group’ HR machine, ‘internal’ applicants are extended the courtesy of priority ‘mainline’ processing at the start. Those ‘internals’ accepted into QF Mainline are often given far more notice of a start date than others, and their seniority begins when they start on a new/different seniority list. (I too can confirm that it hasn’t always been that way.)

What makes you think that there are not eminently suitable candidates from outside the group also deserving of a seniority number on a list in whatever order the ‘owners’ decide? When they too start sounds eminently fair to me!😉

Perhaps some want to be able to have their cake and eat it too? I had no idea that starting a career in Dash 8s, 717s, A320s etc was so much worse than GA on night freight, teaching foreign & Aussie cadets at Moorabin/Jandakot etc, the Kimberleys, PNG, RAAF, ......🤔🙄

["Littlebird"]

Littlebird,

OK...ya just can't just leave that hangin' with no more details. :eek:

I'd be VERY surprised the USAF would take foreign nationals into the service for a mere 5 year commitment, if at all...national security and so forth.

If anything, with the current tour for US citizens at 10 years after getting their wings (the reserves and national guard would be shorter), the commitment for US citizens needs to be shortened to attract more aspirants.

Is your friend actually in contact and working with USAF brass or just hatching a plan yet to be presented, without a response from the USAF ?

Yes, they are currently on exchange with the US Dept of Defense and have been working on this project as a priority for the past 6 months. It has been on the agenda for years and always put on the back burner although it can't wait anymore.

I am not across as to what will transpire for the US citizens.
L.B

[bafanguy]

Yes, they are currently on exchange with the US Dept of Defense and have been working on this project as a priority for the past 6 months. It has been on the agenda for years and always put on the back burner although it can't wait anymore.

LB,

Thanks for the info.

No timeline yet for revealing this plan to the industry ? "... guaranteed placement with one of the majors." is a pretty strong statement so one would assume at least one US "major" would have to have been involved from the start.

It's known that the USAF and airlines have been chatting for quite a while about "sharing" pilots but to my knowledge, no definitive plan has been reached...and everything that's been said didn't admit to involving foreign nationals.

I wouldn't expect the "experienced" foreign nationals would be available in sufficient numbers to turn the tide to either the benefit of the USAF or an airline.

Can't wait to see this one hit the fan. :E

[havick]

LB,

Thanks for the info.

No timeline yet for revealing this plan to the industry ? "... guaranteed placement with one of the majors." is a pretty strong statement so one would assume at least one US "major" would have to have been involved from the start.

It's known that the USAF and airlines have been chatting for quite a while about "sharing" pilots but to my knowledge, no definitive plan has been reached...and everything that's been said didn't admit to involving foreign nationals.

I wouldn't expect the "experienced" foreign nationals would be available in sufficient numbers to turn the tide to either the benefit of the USAF or an airline.

Can't wait to see this one hit the fan. :E


I’ll eat my hat but I can’t see it happening for a myriad of reasons.

[EY_Airbus]

That means if the Capt has to assist or suggest well then that’s not PICUS is it?

Or am I being to harsh?

I think your being to harsh, otherwise the same could be said everytime your FO has had to assist or suggest.....shall PIC time be deducted from you on those occasions?

[maggot]

You said it!


Not Q-link, not Jetconnect, not Jetstar, not Sunstate, not Eastern etc, but QF Mainline Second Officer internal recruitment has begun again.

While the recruitment processes may be similar, &/or driven by the same ‘group’ HR machine, ‘internal’ applicants are extended the courtesy of priority ‘mainline’ processing at the start. Those ‘internals’ accepted into QF Mainline are often given far more notice of a start date than others, and their seniority begins when they start on a new/different seniority list. (I too can confirm that it hasn’t always been that way.)

What makes you think that there are not eminently suitable candidates from outside the group also deserving of a seniority number on a list in whatever order the ‘owners’ decide? When they too start sounds eminently fair to me!😉

Perhaps some want to be able to have their cake and eat it too? I had no idea that starting a career in Dash 8s, 717s, A320s etc was so much worse than GA on night freight, teaching foreign & Aussie cadets at Moorabin/Jandakot etc, the Kimberleys, PNG, RAAF, ......🤔🙄

Politics...

[iatethemacaroni]

Has anyone from Qlink been to the EOI meetings they've held recently? I'm wondering if the 18 month return of service is still expected - can you apply now and be 'released' once you've met it?

I'm pretty new and not in a rush to move, but it seems it might be worth getting in the queue.

[Global Aviator]

I think your being to harsh, otherwise the same could be said everytime your FO has had to assist or suggest.....shall PIC time be deducted from you on those occasions?

Haha your probably right about some Captains.

My point is most airlines don’t have proper ICUS training paths and most standard line Captains don’t give a toss or treat a cadet PF sector as ICUS. To the contrary actually, yet they still sign the log book as it was ICUS. This is my point, so FO’s become Captains with no real command time. Yes the upgrade course sorts out a lot of issues.

The industry has changed due to demand. Correct me if I’m wrong but in the past when you got into QF if you didn’t have 500 multi command you had to go and get it! Not be given it.......

Am I to harsh? But then again we are flying highly automated sophisticated machines now, takes away a lot of the skill level. Oh hang on what if Sully hadn’t the past experience or Capt Gimli Glider... Oh SFO you ask, hangon it was severe CAVOK.

Back to the topic if you get the chance to get into the legacy you want get in NOW get that seniority number then play with LWOP, reduced rosters or whatever but you are just a nunber and the lower that number the better for you!

[Icarus2001]

or treat a cadet PF sector as ICUS.
allowing the pilot in the RHS logging PF time as ICUS as opposed to

Just in case anyone is confused PF has nothing to do with command.

[bafanguy]

Yes, they are currently on exchange with the US Dept of Defense and have been working on this project as a priority for the past 6 months.

Littlebird,

Would you be able to reveal what country your contact represents ?

[Global Aviator]

Just in case anyone is confused PF has nothing to do with command.

Agreed and my point exactly.

[ComradeRoo]

Apart from a command upgrade program - ICUS is merely a backdoor invented by ICAO to allow CPL holders to get to ATPL level without having enough command hours. The meaning was extended because of cadetship programs, as an average cadet will not have more than 100-120 hours of real command time at the end of the program. For a former cadet, ICUS time is only relevant until ATPL PIC time requirement is covered.

There are no restrictions for logging ICUS after getting up to ATPL reqs - it becomes a simple designator between PF/PNF legs up until FO gets promoted and starts a real command training. Only at this point in time ICUS becomes what it is supposed to be: command under supervision.

PS: I still don't get how is it relevant to the thread subject :rolleyes:

[havick]

Apart from a command upgrade program - ICUS is merely a backdoor invented by ICAO to allow CPL holders to get to ATPL level without having enough command hours. The meaning was extended because of cadetship programs, as an average cadet will not have more than 100-120 hours of real command time at the end of the program. For a former cadet, ICUS time is only relevant until ATPL PIC time requirement is covered.

There are no restrictions for logging ICUS after getting up to ATPL reqs - it becomes a simple designator between PF/PNF legs up until FO gets promoted and starts a real command training. Only at this point in time ICUS becomes what it is supposed to be: command under supervision.

PS: I still don't get how is it relevant to the thread subject :rolleyes:

One thing I don’t understand about logging ICUS in Australia as a means to gain ‘command’ experience in order for one to obtain the necessary requirements for an ATPL, is how does one log ICUS if they cannot fly as the PIC by virtue of not possessing an ATPL an ATPL in the first place?

In other aviation circles, ICUS was/is usually a means to meet client/contract/insurance requirements but the ICUS pilot held the necessary license and quals/type ratings etc to otherwise legally be sitting in the PIC seat.

[dr dre]

The industry has changed due to demand. Correct me if I’m wrong but in the past when you got into QF if you didn’t have 500 multi command you had to go and get it! Not be given it.......

No, the 500hrs multi command requirement is for low capacity RPT. High capacity RPT is just an ATPL. There have been plenty of captains flying in a Australia who had no command hours since CPL training.


Am I to harsh? But then again we are flying highly automated sophisticated machines now, takes away a lot of the skill level. Oh hang on what if Sully hadn’t the past experience or Capt Gimli Glider... Oh SFO you ask, hangon it was severe CAVOK.

So did the BA crew who glided a jet to landing in Heathrow who got their first jobs in jets need past non jet experience to land it safely? Or if the Gimli Captain’s prior gliding experience is what made the difference why isn’t that a mandatory part of the ATPL syllabus? Or the countless crews with prior experience who’ve made mistakes that have cost lives, do we count that against them? Like the SFO case, wasn’t the instructor, the guy who was supposed to be in command of the situation, an experienced ex-Korean air force pilot?

[Check_Thrust]

There are no restrictions for logging ICUS after getting up to ATPL reqs - it becomes a simple designator between PF/PNF legs up until FO gets promoted and starts a real command training. Only at this point in time ICUS becomes what it is supposed to be: command under supervision.

PS: I still don't get how is it relevant to the thread subject :rolleyes:

Yes I am not sure of its thread relevance but I do want to respond to your above mentioned comment that I've put in bold.

Are you sure there are no restrictions? I can't speak for the company that you work for and there policies however from the CASR:
61.095 Definition of flight time as pilot in command under supervision for Part 61

(1) A person's flight time as pilot in command under supervision is the duration of a flight if:
(a) the person holds a pilot licence; and
(b) the person performs all the duties of the pilot in command for the flight; and
(c) subregulation (2) or (3) applies to the flight.

(2) For paragraph (1)(c), this subregulation applies to the flight if:
(a) the flight is conducted by an operator that has training and checking responsibilities; and
(b) the pilot in command of the flight is authorised by the operator or the operator's Part 142 operator to conduct the supervision of the person.

(3) For paragraph (1)(c), this subregulation applies to the flight if:
(a) the person is supervised by a flight instructor or flight examiner; and
(b) the person is not receiving flight training.

and

61.085 Definition of flight time as co-pilot for Part 61

A person's flight time as a co-pilot is any period, during flight in an aircraft that, under these Regulations, must be flown with a flight crew of at least 2 pilots, in which the person is performing co-pilot duties other than as pilot in command under supervision.

Note: A co-pilot is a pilot on board an aircraft in a piloting capacity other than the pilot in command or a pilot who is on board the aircraft for the sole purpose of receiving flight training: see the definition of co-pilot in Part 1 of the Dictionary

As I said I can't specifically speak for your company's policies however if all the FOs are logging ICUS for their PF sectors I hope the captains are being paid accordingly for a supervisory pilot roll as they will have to meet the requirements of 61.095 - 2(b). Do the said captains also fill out an ICUS report on the FO at the completion of flight as well?

This discussion makes me wonder if that in operations that have SOs if the SO logs any ICUS when they occupy a control seat and are PF.

[Tankengine]

Yes I am not sure of its thread relevance but I do want to respond to your above mentioned comment that I've put in bold.

Are you sure there are no restrictions? I can't speak for the company that you work for and there policies however from the CASR:


and



As I said I can't specifically speak for your company's policies however if all the FOs are logging ICUS for their PF sectors I hope the captains are being paid accordingly for a supervisory pilot roll as they will have to meet the requirements of 61.095 - 2(b). Do the said captains also fill out an ICUS report on the FO at the completion of flight as well?

This discussion makes me wonder if that in operations that have SOs if the SO logs any ICUS when they occupy a control seat and are PF.

This is a Qantas recruitment thread:
That is the way we do it.
All captains are so authorised (once landee qualified)
If your knickers are in a knot about Qantas policy, then : don’t apply!:p

[Slippery_Pete]

I think your being to harsh

Whose being? Your being, or my being?

To harsh? Where is that, I have never been there before.

Maybe they need to reconsider dropping the year 12 English requirement.

[Check_Thrust]

Tankengine,

I think you have missed the point I was getting at. ComradeRoo had stated that once one has obtained ATPL requirements that there is no restrictions on logging ICUS, I was pointing out that there is. I did also state that I was unaware of his/her company's policies. If it is allowed by said company's policies and they have duly authorised their captains in this capacity so be it, no nickers in a knot over that. I was just merely mentioning the requirements of CASA regarding the logging of ICUS.

[Icarus2001]

Slippery Pete, a man after my own heart. I suspect you are trying to feed strawberries to pigs but I enjoyed it.

[Slippery_Pete]

Slippery Pete, a man after my own heart.

:O

“Man” is too gender specific, didn’t you read the memo?:ugh:

Feeding strawberries to pigs

I have never heard that before, what a great line. It will make an excellent addition to my usual “you can’t polish a turd”.

[ComradeRoo]

As I said I can't specifically speak for your company's policies however if all the FOs are logging ICUS for their PF sectors I hope the captains are being paid accordingly for a supervisory pilot roll as they will have to meet the requirements of 61.095 - 2(b). Do the said captains also fill out an ICUS report on the FO at the completion of flight as well?


My current company's FOM has only two restrictions for logging ICUS:
1. FO has to have at least 1000hrs total time
2. Captain has to have at least 1000hrs on type to be able to supervise.
Captain signs separate ICUS flight log after each PF leg. Also, there are no restrictions on maximum ICUS hours. As long as the captain is happy - it goes into the log.

Part 61 (or the way I read it) states pretty much the same: If there is a PIC on board authorised and happy to supervise - log ICUS hours when PF. No legal restrictions. Perhaps there are differences in our FOMs

My main point was that ICUS time beyond ATPL reqs (even though one can clock it up depending on policies) becomes irrelevant. But it is an easy way of separating PF legs in a logbook and has nothing to do with real command hours.

In terms of extra pay - why? Is it that much different from normal captain duties? Supervision is in cap's job description.
LTC, however, is a different story and get extra pay. But again - company policies.

With SOs - technically they are Cruise Relief First Officers. So no ICUS as they do not perform full range of duties on board... imo

[JPJP]

No, the 500hrs multi command requirement is for low capacity RPT. High capacity RPT is just an ATPL. There have been plenty of captains flying in a Australia who had no command hours since CPL training.



So did the BA crew who glided a jet to landing in Heathrow who got their first jobs in jets need past non jet experience to land it safely? Or if the Gimli Captain’s prior gliding experience is what made the difference why isn’t that a mandatory part of the ATPL syllabus? Or the countless crews with prior experience who’ve made mistakes that have cost lives, do we count that against them? Like the SFO case, wasn’t the instructor, the guy who was supposed to be in command of the situation, an experienced ex-Korean air force pilot?

Meh.

Using Asiana at SFO was a poor choice - they crashed that aircraft because neither had a clue about hand flying a jet. Coupled with a lack of understanding of the auto throttle logic. They lacked applicable experience - see where I’m going ?

The BA Captain did a stellar job. In fact, raising the flaps one notch is exactly what a glider pilot would do. Was he a pure cadet ? Yes, I think gliding should be a first step in pilot training. Especially for a cadet. The Germans did it for their fighter pilots prior to and during WW2. Until they ran out of pilots and time.

Remember those two Air France pilots that stalled an A330 into the ocean ? Both cadets. They’d been babysitting an autopilot their whole career. Numerous Asian crashes have involved MPL/Cadet pilots.

I find Qantas hard to fault in terms of training and safety. Hopefully their cadet programs won’t produce a negative result in the future. One thing is clear, cadet programs and ICUS are purely a result of cost saving efforts. Not safety.

[FLGOFF]

You like to point out your/you’re yet write ‘whose’
instead of ‘who’s’.

Oh dear.

I don't think you're at the level where you can critique others...Just yet. :=

[JPJP]

Oh dear.

I don't think you're at the level where you can critique others...Just yet. :=

To soon ? :E


I apologize for contributing to the thread drift. Now, back to the topic of hopeful young thrusters and a kangaroo (that really didn’t sound quite how I meant it).

[EY_Airbus]

Whose being? Your being, or my being?

To harsh? Where is that, I have never been there before.

Maybe they need to reconsider dropping the year 12 English requirement.

Haha, spelling police on Prune...would love to be sitting on your flightdeck, not. Get a life

[Propjet88]

.

...Numerous Asian crashes have involved MPL/Cadet pilots....



JPJP can you please cite some of these "numerous" Asian crashes that have involved MPL/Cadet pilots please?

Thanks

Fly Safe
PJ

[dr dre]

Using Asiana at SFO was a poor choice - they crashed that aircraft because neither had a clue about hand flying a jet. Coupled with a lack of understanding of the auto throttle logic. They lacked applicable experience - see where I’m going ?


Not really. You were implying that the new generation of "autopilot babysitters" (ie cadets) are more likely to spear planes into the ground. I pointed out that pilots from varied backgrounds can spear jets in and save them through skills and quick thinking (yes the BA captain was a cadet, most in Europe are -
http://booking.virtualaviation.co.uk/about/instructors.html)

If those guys in SFO didn't have a clue about hand flying and didn't understand systems logic that points to poor training and a poor culture of discouraging hand flying. That won't be rectified by not hiring cadets, if you read into a history of Korean aviation a lot of the issues that caused major crashes in the 80's and 90's had to do with former military pilots not fitting in with airline culture.

[Airbus A320321]

One thing is clear, cadet programs and ICUS are purely a result of cost saving efforts. Not safety.[/QUOTE]

The JQ cadets get paid the same as direct entry pilots, have their type rating paid for and get 200hrs of line training instead of the standard 100.

They are more expensive to employ not cheaper!

Around 40 going through their training at Moorabbin as we speak.

[Icarus2001]

get 200hrs of line training instead of the standard 100.

Line training on revenue flights is hardly a significant cost.

[morno]

Don’t they also get put on as junior FO’s on lesser pay until they reach like 1500hrs? Unlike a DEFO who will automatically start on normal FO pay?

[Airbus A320321]

Don’t they also get put on as junior FO’s on lesser pay until they reach like 1500hrs? Unlike a DEFO who will automatically start on normal FO pay?

Nope, the JFO payscale was abolished in the latest (2015) EBA. All cadets are level 1 FO from day 1.

[Icarus2001]

Haha, spelling police on Prune...would love to be sitting on your flightdeck, not. Get a life

I always laugh at these comments, especially when not directed at me.

EY Airbus, what his lack of grammar and spelling indicate is a lazy and not well educated mind. Slippery Pete was pointing that out not because he missed a letter here or there/their/they're.

I once watched two senior pilots arguing over the meaning of a paragraph in the CAR and it became obvious to me that one of them had no idea what the word "notwithstanding" meant, which was causing the confusion.

You can pour scorn on people who point this stuff out but in the context of QF dropping education requirements and the importance of literacy and comprehension given the large volume of reading we need to do I think it is important. Given the standard of writing I see in tech logs..."guage" "portable water" etc some people need help. So when I hear people at EBA time compare our profession to doctors and lawyers I laugh out loud.

[EY_Airbus]

EY Airbus, what his lack of grammar and spelling indicate is a lazy and not well educated mind.

Not a well educated mind?? That’s a bit unfair don’t you think? Lazy? Come on, we aren’t writing letters to the Queen here....more like responding on a smartphone with your non-preferred hand, whilst your other one is busy doing something far more important, like stirring a pot of lentils or pouring kitty litter into the litter tray.