Qantas Recruitment

[dr dre]

Hey there Captainhan, sad truth old boy, when it comes to HR at QF and who they do or do not hire I can assure you that your experience counts for SFA, 10,000 hours in command of a wide body on international operations to them is the same as 500 hours in a C206 out Broome. Go figure.

Mainline is an airline you’re going to have to stay with for a few decades to really reap the benefits, so it makes sense for them to bias recruitment towards under 40s, and at that stage in your career you’re not likely to have much wide body command time. Having said that a lot of ex CX and other wide body LHS joining as S/Os.

The vast majority of new recruits have jet or heavy turboprop time. It’s probably the most experienced pilot pool mainline has ever recruited.

[romeocharlie]

Working included

I stand corrected, and no - I left the 78 for the maggot a while ago - the only thing I remember was MDC....

[Pearly White]

I stand corrected, and no - I left the 78 for the maggot a while ago - the only thing I remember was MDC....
Maggot???

[engine out]

Maggot = 737

[transition_alt]

To be sure you get the correct numbers.

There are 6.5 BP per year. So all except the 787, that's 1040 hours.

And you must do 4 sims and 1 eps per year. Add security every 2 years. All up you will get a minimum of 1067.5 at min guarantee, and every second year you get an extra 5.5. If you aren't based where the Sim is, you also get the paxing credit days on top, but that's base dependant.

Of course you get allwances on top of all that.

What would an average amount of allowances look like per year for the Airbus vs 787?

[aussieflyboy]

What would an average amount of allowances look like per year for the Airbus vs 787?

Remember you spend allowances when you’re away from home and anything you don’t spend are supposed to be added to your taxable income. Allowances are not a guarantee and are not a ‘Bonus’ to your base income.

[Makiko]

More Bubsy Babytalk

Why are people so guarded & blatantly misleading to tell people the facts about getting employ & then what the pay is

Suggesting pay for Perth is $80K when they would all be easily grossing $160K , before allowances

Allowances for LH average $400 AUD per day, these are non-taxable , you will spend 160 nights OS or duty travel etc

So the total of allowances will be $65/75K per annum , which is non-taxable & clearly you would probably get a dollar or two left over

The "juice" in the LH contract is the "soft pay" , dead heading , nights in Perth before after ULR etc

Few years you would likely be grossing $200K as SO on 787 allowances on top of that

Airbus SOs (A Scale ) miles in front of that , top of scale SOs would all be north of $300K these days

& that is why nobody wants to fly the 737

Why oh why is AIPA fighting QF on SOs hired direct to A380 , the clause says "& AIPA will not reasonably refuse request if due operational reasons"

Coming out of a pandemic , blocked training pipelines - they have all the reason they need

Why not focus on something they might actually win, such as QF introducing B Scale SOs years before A350 turns up

[Fonz121]

So the total of allowances will be $65/75K per annum , which is non-taxable & clearly you would probably get a dollar or two left over

Where are you getting these figures from? I did less than 20k in allowances last year and that was a pretty busy year.

[Brakerider]

A realistic number for a first year 787 SO is 130k + 30k allowances. There really isn't much opportunity to work harder than that at the moment.

[Makiko]

You would work out the number of nights away from base and then you multiply that 400

So if you only made $20K in allowances then you only spent 50 nights away on duty

Well played you are the Royale of of SOs , Amen to you

If you were on a standard roster , you need to call the Qantas pay office , as they owe you $40K to $50K

Everyone flat stick at the moment & close to 50% of time on a trip, planes busy seats full , 787s especially so

Plenty of people getting $70K + cashy non-taxable "food" allowance on top of flight pay

Just have a look at the EBA 10 information pack - it is all there & that is 2020 data

Nine Day LHR & guys are getting close (or more ) than $4000 for food allowance - its regarded as pay , nobody I know spends it

Its money for jam, think what a Business traveller would get & basically double it , $500 or so per day in London

[Autobrakes4]

Makiko, you're not even close with allowances. $30K, absolute max with picking all the good trips $40K

[Makiko]

EBA info pack 10 was stating expect $36410 annually & used as an example patterns for 380 doing 3 day HK trips

Doesn't do those trips & the data (ato) is quite old now

You should talk to some 787 guys doing a lot of LHR & 4 day North American trips

[Fonz121]

EBA info pack 10 was stating expect $36410 annually & used as an example patterns for 380 doing 3 day HK trips

Doesn't do those trips & the data (ato) is quite old now

You should talk to some 787 guys doing a lot of LHR & 4 day North American trips


What were your allowances last year?

[morno]

You would work out the number of nights away from base and then you multiply that 400

So if you only made $20K in allowances then you only spent 50 nights away on duty

Well played you are the Royale of of SOs , Amen to you

If you were on a standard roster , you need to call the Qantas pay office , as they owe you $40K to $50K

Everyone flat stick at the moment & close to 50% of time on a trip, planes busy seats full , 787s especially so

Plenty of people getting $70K + cashy non-taxable "food" allowance on top of flight pay

Just have a look at the EBA 10 information pack - it is all there & that is 2020 data

Nine Day LHR & guys are getting close (or more ) than $4000 for food allowance - its regarded as pay , nobody I know spends it

Its money for jam, think what a Business traveller would get & basically double it , $500 or so per day in London

Mate your figures are so far out it’s not funny. I WISH I got that much :rolleyes:

LH allowances DON’T average $400 per day at all. Have a look at the reasonable expenses table on the ATO website, that’ll tell you what you get per day. London, Singapore, they’re $400 a day. Japan, the US, I think it’s $355 a day. An India or a Bangkok, $230 or so. Domestically you’re only looking at about $195 a day. Heck if you go to Jo’Burg it’s even less than Australia!

And $300k for an SO? :D:D Mate you’re dreaming.

[Makiko]

All the top increment SOs , that is 2009 before grossing $300K atm

& a large number of those hired since 2016

If you knew anything you would know that the $300K mark for SOs was crossed well before EBA 10

You are equally unaccurate about allowances - clearly you don't work for QF

[soseg]

I’m only posting to alert everyone here to disregard everything Makiko is saying. Absolute inflated horse ****.

160 days a year away?
post 2016 hire SOs on over 300k?
70k in allowances?

This bloke is stupid. Or doesn’t know how to realistically troll.

[Beer Baron]

Makiko is right that the allowances are very generous and you’d almost never spend them all whilst away. They got much more generous in the last EA as you get them even while flying, not just in port.
However, his quoted figures are grossly inflated.
$400 per day is NOT the average, it is the absolute Maximum you get anywhere. Only get that in SIN and Korea as best I can tell, not LHR.

A 9 day LHR does not get 9 X the daily allowance, it is based on hours away. It’s 183 hours which is closer to 7.5 days and nearly half the time you’re on the lower UK rate (band 5).

As mentioned above, if flying to BKK, MNL, SCL, JNB, CGK, DEL, BLR…. Then you’re getting less than $300 per 24 hrs.

The system has only been in place less than a year so no one can tell you exactly what you’ll get but I’d guess 30-35K is a good estimate.

[Makiko]

You can believe what you want soseg

Ton of Airbus SOs (not 787) grossing $300K plus

That would be old news

Lot of people racking up 160 days OS yearly

[aussieflyboy]

Qantas Pilots trying to inflate their poor base salary using allowances… nothing new.

The Bin Chickens of international aviation.

[morno]

Where do I sign, because clearly you’re talking about a different company!

$300k is virtually impossible as an SO. Get your hand off it and go away or stump up how you get those figures, and then watch it get pulled apart very quickly.

Just like your allowances, you don’t even know what you’re talking about.

I’m done wasting time on your trolling.

[dr dre]

Where do I sign, because clearly you’re talking about a different company!

$300k is virtually impossible as an SO. Get your hand off it and go away or stump up how you get those figures, and then watch it get pulled apart very quickly.



Most of what makiko is saying is incorrect, but some super senior 380 SOs pre Covid were pulling in mid to high $200k’s, plus allowances to bring it up to $300k. It was achievable for the top dozen or so SOs on max pay rates who would fill up their roster with high overtime trips like Dallas. But only for a small group with 20 years seniority and who had foregone promotion to LH FO.

Won’t be achievable for any one joining today so this is really a moot discussion.

[soseg]

Most of what makiko is saying is incorrect, but some super senior 380 SOs pre Covid were pulling in mid to high $200k’s, plus allowances to bring it up to $300k. It was achievable for the top dozen or so SOs on max pay rates who would fill up their roster with high overtime trips like Dallas. But only for a small group with 20 years seniority and who had foregone promotion to LH FO.

Won’t be achievable for any one joining today so this is really a moot discussion.

Yes. The caveat being Senior A380 SOs on the original scale.

He is trying to tell everyone its 787/330.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Most of what makiko is saying is incorrect, but some super senior 380 SOs pre Covid were pulling in mid to high $200k’s, plus allowances to bring it up to $300k. It was achievable for the top dozen or so SOs on max pay rates who would fill up their roster with high overtime trips like Dallas. But only for a small group with 20 years seniority and who had foregone promotion to LH FO.

Won’t be achievable for any one joining today so this is really a moot discussion.

And they were including their Div 6 Super in those calcs..

Makiko is trying badly to troll or does't understand maths.

[RealSatoshi]

The Bin Chickens of international aviation
...and everyone else fighting Hammer and Tongs to validate the above statement :E

[AerocatS2A]

Remember you spend allowances when you’re away from home and anything you don’t spend are supposed to be added to your taxable income. Allowances are not a guarantee and are not a ‘Bonus’ to your base income.
There's no requirement to add unspent allowances to taxable income under Aus tax rules. Provided they come under the reasonable amounts listed they do not need to be declared and no receipts need to be provided.

[BravoSierraLima]

There is an ongoing recruitment for A220 TR, experienced pilots from Europe.
Any idea what to expect in the assessment, or how many positions will be offered? We are already 8 candidates from my company and increasing
How much is the salary for a F/O and how many days the annual leave?
Thank you in advance

There will be 10 positions offered that require visas, but it's important to read the ad carefully. Even though the A220 will have "Qantas" painted on them, you will not work for Qantas, you will work for one of their subsidiaries called NJS and there is a unusually accurate thread about them on this forum. There will not be any chance to move bases for several years and changing types requires an application for another job. If you thought the cost of living is expensive where you live now, Melbourne is clearly more expensive.

Salary for a FO will be $122.000 Aussie pesos and perhaps 15.000-25.000 in allowances annually, for comparison this will make you one of the lowest paid jet FOs in the country. See paycalculator.com.au to work out how much your after tax pay will be.

Annual leave is the standard for Aussie pilots, 42 days annually. 10 days off per roster.

The assessment will probably be a formality as they cannot attract any experienced A220 pilots from overseas willing to work for such poor pay and conditions compared to the rest of the industry. NJS is not a happy place to be, especially the Melbourne base. Management are dysfunctional, only existing to continue collecting a salary. NJS is guilty of being tricky with the truth, several of the most recently hired FOs desire a Sydney base, during the interview it was hinted that they could get that soon after starting in Melbourne so they took the job on that basis. Some of them have been at NJS for over a year and haven't been allowed to move even though Sydney base is down to half of the minimum number of FOs while Melbourne base has enough crew.

Do not believe anything NJS or Qantas tell you unless it is in writing...das blaue vom himmel versprechen.

During their previous efforts to relocate existing pilots inside Australia, many basic but frustrating errors were made. Now add on the issue of obtaining a visa on your behalf which is something NJS has no experience in, converting your licence to an Aussie one, passing security checks and the associated paperwork as well as moving you and your family halfway around the globe, you are going to spend months doing paperwork, sims and other pointless paperwork with no clear schedule. NJS are unable to move anyone from Melbourne to Sydney so its not a matter of if they will make mistakes, but when and how many dozen of them. Then there's all the other tasks involved of moving to another country, a car, drivers licence, healthcare, etc.

My friend says even though the government hasnt changed the law yet, they want to change visa rules so that people like you wouldnt be required to stay with the same employer (NJS), you could theoretically start, have NJS get you a visa then resign and start at a higher paying Australian airline like Virgin (737/A320) or Rex 737. Thats just something to keep in mind, keep reading the news about those visa changes.

Please PM if you have more questions, I can find out answers for you and your interested colleagues.

[soseg]

Anyone considering the a220 gig in Australia with any jet time is better off going to the Middle East or USA.

There is a good reason they cannot retain crew.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

There will be 10 positions offered that require visas, but it's important to read the ad carefully. Even though the A220 will have "Qantas" painted on them, you will not work for Qantas, you will work for one of their subsidiaries called NJS and there is a unusually accurate thread about them on this forum. There will not be any chance to move bases for several years and changing types requires an application for another job. If you thought the cost of living is expensive where you live now, Melbourne is clearly more expensive.

Salary for a FO will be $122.000 Aussie pesos and perhaps 15.000-25.000 in allowances annually, for comparison this will make you one of the lowest paid jet FOs in the country. See paycalculator.com.au to work out how much your after tax pay will be.

Annual leave is the standard for Aussie pilots, 42 days annually. 10 days off per roster.

The assessment will probably be a formality as they cannot attract any experienced A220 pilots from overseas willing to work for such poor pay and conditions compared to the rest of the industry. NJS is not a happy place to be, especially the Melbourne base. Management are dysfunctional, only existing to continue collecting a salary. NJS is guilty of being tricky with the truth, several of the most recently hired FOs desire a Sydney base, during the interview it was hinted that they could get that soon after starting in Melbourne so they took the job on that basis. Some of them have been at NJS for over a year and haven't been allowed to move even though Sydney base is down to half of the minimum number of FOs while Melbourne base has enough crew.

Do not believe anything NJS or Qantas tell you unless it is in writing...das blaue vom himmel versprechen.

During their previous efforts to relocate existing pilots inside Australia, many basic but frustrating errors were made. Now add on the issue of obtaining a visa on your behalf which is something NJS has no experience in, converting your licence to an Aussie one, passing security checks and the associated paperwork as well as moving you and your family halfway around the globe, you are going to spend months doing paperwork, sims and other pointless paperwork with no clear schedule. NJS are unable to move anyone from Melbourne to Sydney so its not a matter of if they will make mistakes, but when and how many dozen of them. Then there's all the other tasks involved of moving to another country, a car, drivers licence, healthcare, etc.

My friend says even though the government hasnt changed the law yet, they want to change visa rules so that people like you wouldnt be required to stay with the same employer (NJS), you could theoretically start, have NJS get you a visa then resign and start at a higher paying Australian airline like Virgin (737/A320) or Rex 737. Thats just something to keep in mind, keep reading the news about those visa changes.

Please PM if you have more questions, I can find out answers for you and your interested colleagues.


122k based in melb 😂😂 hope pilots like renting a cardboard box. Maybe pilots can live in their car at Tullarmarine carpark. Maybe NJS can install some showers in the airport toilets.
what a f..king disgrace. I hope every subsidary pilot leaves this third world sh*thole!

[RealSatoshi]

122k based in melb 😂😂 hope pilots like renting a cardboard box. Maybe pilots can live in their car at Tullarmarine carpark. Maybe NJS can install some showers in the airport toilets.
what a f..king disgrace. I hope every subsidary pilot leaves this third world sh*thole!
Not much better for a Mainline SO either :\

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Not much better for a Mainline SO either :\


It is an actual joke. If you are sitting in the flightdeck of a jet your base pay should be a minimum of 160k and I still think that is to low for the cost and sacrifice required to get that role.

[morno]

I take it you blokes will be leading the charge to change that? Thought so

[Zeta_Reticuli]

I take it you blokes will be leading the charge to change that? Thought so
Just you wait... hopefully the rest of the pilot group will grow a set of balls! This industry needs to be ground to a halt!

[JamieMaree]

Just you wait... hopefully the rest of the pilot group will grow a set of balls! This industry needs to be ground to a halt!


Another30 year old dreamer. The pilot world needs more of these.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Another30 year old dreamer. The pilot world needs more of these.

Better than being some woke millennial moron swallowing and accepting all the woke corporate BS!
Rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

[JamieMaree]

Better than being some woke millennial moron swallowing and accepting all the woke corporate BS!
Rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

Stay on your feet.

[Captn Rex Havack]

122k based in melb 😂😂 hope pilots like renting a cardboard box. Maybe pilots can live in their car at Tullarmarine carpark. Maybe NJS can install some showers in the airport toilets.
what a f..king disgrace. I hope every subsidary pilot leaves this third world sh*thole!

Both my kids, early twenties live in Melbourne. Both earn $60k. Both rent reasonable units. A single young pilot on $122k? Can't make ends meet? Fiscally incompetent. Married with kids, different story.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Both my kids, early twenties live in Melbourne. Both earn $60k. Both rent reasonable units. A single young pilot on $122k? Can't make ends meet? Fiscally incompetent. Married with kids, different story.


Yea most pilots on a jet probably have kids or are wanting to start a family. After years of slogging it out in GA they should be able to afford a home in the city that they are based! You can't even buy a home near syd or melb even on 160k... I don't know what planet your on. But wow lets all aspire to rent a unit in Melbourne as an airline pilot! Wake the f**k up! Clearly you are whats wrong with this industry and country! Most people aspire to have a home and atleast 2 kids when they have a career. Yet go live in syd or melb on the pittance of a salary on offer. And unless you receive an inheritance, born in syd or melb or have the bank of mum and dad how in the god damn hell is someone now meant to move from Darwin, Broome, Perth or Adelaide able to afford to move to syd or melb to go work for qlink or rex on 70k a year?? I have seen absolute piles of garbage studios in Parramatta for $1100 a week. Anyone who even considers renting that on 70k a year needs to have their medical revoked for psychiatric reasons! While this continues and gets worse more and more pilots will be leaving this country. For you to even think this acceptable is pathetic! Yea good luck saving a deposit when your rent to live 50mins from the airport is $900 a week!
Maybe NJS can drop their f/o salaries to 60k since your children can survive on it!
dont worry mate with all the indian arrivals maybe we can get jet pilot salaries down to 40k. Lets hope!

[aussieflyboy]

Interesting to learn recently that once NJS has trained their own people they intend on offering A220 Commands to Qantas 737 FOs as a secondment arrangement on NJS EA conditions.

I’m sure maggot FOs will be lining up around the corner to take up the offer…

[brokenagain]

I have seen absolute piles of garbage studios in Parramatta for $1100 a week.

A quick look at real estate websites shows that $1100 a week will get you a 3 or 4 bedroom apartment in Parra, quite nice ones too. If you’re going to run with hyperbole, at least make it somewhat realistic.

[dr dre]

Interesting to learn recently that once NJS has trained their own people they intend on offering A220 Commands to Qantas 737 FOs as a secondment arrangement on NJS EA conditions.

I’m sure maggot FOs will be lining up around the corner to take up the offer…

That was already offered to some mainline F/Os.

I’m led to believe the number that accepted the deal was somewhere between zero and zilch.

[maggot]

Interesting to learn recently that once NJS has trained their own people they intend on offering A220 Commands to Qantas 737 FOs as a secondment arrangement on NJS EA conditions.

I’m sure maggot FOs will be lining up around the corner to take up the offer…

Qf declined to negotiate 220 stuff in the recent SHEA revisit......

[dr dre]

Qf declined to negotiate 220 stuff in the recent SHEA revisit......

This was an offer to go to NJS on LWOP. No takers.

[Icarus2001]

What a surprise.

[Swept-Wing]

Both my kids, early twenties live in Melbourne. Both earn $60k. Both rent reasonable units. A single young pilot on $122k? Can't make ends meet? Fiscally incompetent. Married with kids, different story.

fu*king boomer :rolleyes:

[Zeta_Reticuli]

fu*king boomer :rolleyes:
I usually defend boomers, but clearly he is the stereotypical out of touch boomer living in another reality. Wish I lived in his reality it would be nice...

[Zeta_Reticuli]

A quick look at real estate websites shows that $1100 a week will get you a 3 or 4 bedroom apartment in Parra, quite nice ones too. If you’re going to run with hyperbole, at least make it somewhat realistic.


If you think $1100 a week for an apartment in Parra is reasonable you should have your class 1 medical revoked...

[brokenagain]

If you think $1100 a week for an apartment in Parra is reasonable you should have your class 1 medical revoked...

Just highlighting that $1100 a week gets you something a bit nicer than an ‘absolute piles of garbage studios’. Gross exaggeration detracts from the point you’re trying to make.

[The Love Doctor]

This was an offer to go to NJS on LWOP. No takers.
No takers? Excellent. Only way QF will get the message regarding their drive towards lowering pay and condotions is everyone saying "no" to their bastard tactics.

[maverick4442]

Just you wait... hopefully the rest of the pilot group will grow a set of balls! This industry needs to be ground to a halt!

I totally agree with you!

I thought the Pilot group was going to grow a set with the past EBA negotiations to be honest,sadly all it takes is a threat to outsource and they all vote YES.

I have come to the conclusion all it takes is a threat and people buckle.
Those who vote YES to a **** agreement have no right to complain about how **** the agreement is because at the end of the day you votes YES!

Maybe it will change next time around…

“Tell him he is dreaming” more likely.,,,

[Makiko]

Lots of hysterical excitable posters about

The guy enquiring about NJS should look up the contract on fair work commission

NATIONAL JET SYSTEMS PTY LTD PILOT ENTERPRISE
AGREEMENT 2022

LHS base is $205K ,likely to gross a minimum of $250K

Who was the goose before who claimed it was only 12 or so super super senior SOs (who could have been LH FOs) on the 380 pre covid
who made $300K. Don't know anyone who has knocked back LH FO from SO

Complete nonsense back in 18/19 top pay about $150 per hour ,now $195 for SO on A380 & ton of SOs on year 12 rates on both 330/380 north of $300K now
, pretty normal I would have thought

What was a "try on" was early intro of SO B Scale , how can that be reasonable contract interpretation years before 350s arrive

Silence from AIPA is deafening, just pride as they "signed off" on the deal

Better than even chance you would get it flung at Court - really should take a max of two day hearing - its just one clause. But after Mr Windy Bags KC overcomplicates it all
maybe a 4 or at most 5 day hearing . Not a lot of brass to invest

Is it correct QF stated to AIPA they would commence B scale as "pay back" when AIPA stated they opposed street hire to A380

[engine out]

I doubt there is truth in that gem as new hirers would only be on A380 b scale IF the company was already hiring on to the 330/350. I think that the company was always going to hire new 330 SOs as 330/350 to trigger the clause in the EBA as soon as possible. Certainly not payback. Also clarifying the union didn’t say no to direct 380, what the union wanted is for those already employed as SOs to have the opportunity to bid for those slots and if not for bypass clause of the EBA.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Complete nonsense back in 18/19 top pay about $150 per hour ,now $195 for SO on A380 & ton of SOs on year 12 rates on both 330/380 north of $300K now
, pretty normal I would have thought

Current 330 SO hourly rate is $170.93. About 170 credit hrs/ bid period, 6.5 bid periods/yr, = 1105 hrs/yr, plus about 30 credit hrs for sims, EPS & security. That gives you about $194k/yr, on a fleet where there isn’t much overtime. You’d need $100k+ in allowances to make ‘north of 300k’. Your figures are nonsense. An average 330 FO wasn’t making that much pre-COVID.

[Ladloy]

Current 330 SO hourly rate is $170.93. About 170 credit hrs/ bid period, 6.5 bid periods/yr, = 1105 hrs/yr, plus about 30 credit hrs for sims, EPS & security. That gives you about $194k/yr, on a fleet where there isn’t much overtime. You’d need $100k+ in allowances to make ‘north of 300k’. Your figures are nonsense. An average 330 FO wasn’t making that much pre-COVID.
Brissy base perhaps

[Makiko]

The problem is the wording "Association will not unreasonably withold agreement" with regard requests to hire direct to 380

You might think the shutdown of international aviation for a couple of years & the worldwide issues with training /restarting qualify for an exception

How can bypass be linked to this ? (honest question) , as an off the street hire doesn't have a seniority number

Goodluck if the bidders can get it , I just think its a stretch . Does it sound logical that QF would pay bypass pay to everyone who put in a bid

Personally I think a much more winnable battle would be to get the start date of B Scale , pushed back to closer to AC delivery (a few years right ?)

There is no datal/time clause in when 330/350 category SO would be implemented with reference AC delivery - mistake by AIPA (& their lawyers)

Hard to see the reasonableness in QF decision , as AC long time away, no other ranks training etc etc

For people who plan on spending 10 or so years as SO , you are going to be down seven figures , got to be worth fighting for

If AIPA won't do it , there are other Unions or just do it yourselves (funding shouldn't be a huge issue as soon hundreds of B scalers)

[SandyPalms]

Makiko

That's not what the bypass proviosions say. Not everybody who bids is entititled to bypass pay. Read the contract. The SO A380 case will actually only affect and handfuls of bidders, but it’s the principle that AIPA are fighting for, and rightfully so I feel. That being said, even if AIPA win the case, those SO’s who are effected won’t be going to the A380, and by the time case gets through the federal court, they most likely will have bid, and been awarded another position knowing that the only outcome from an AIPA win, is a slightly higher hourly rate, without the overtime to bump up the pay.
With regard to the A330/350 assignment to SOT, AIPA is fighting for the company to be reasonable, there is no silence. But you have to be a member to get the info. Might be why you're not informed.

For someone with a lot to say, you don't seem to be able to get many of the facts straight. In fact, you are wrong, most of the time,

For those trying to put together a cohesive strategy about joining QF, just know that Makiko is incorrect just about every time. Purposely i feel.

[ShandywithSugar]

If AIPA won't do it , there are other Unions or just do it yourselves (funding shouldn't be a huge issue as soon hundreds of B scalers)

Is there any mainline pilots on the AFAP Qantas Pilots Council? Appears to be non existent.

[engine out]

Current 330 SO hourly rate is $170.93. About 170 credit hrs/ bid period, 6.5 bid periods/yr, = 1105 hrs/yr, plus about 30 credit hrs for sims, EPS & security. That gives you about $194k/yr, on a fleet where there isn’t much overtime. You’d need $100k+ in allowances to make ‘north of 300k’. Your figures are nonsense. An average 330 FO wasn’t making that much pre-COVID.

The current SO hourly rate is not $170 it’s $103.07 or $129.15 on 787 or thereabouts. News SOs will top out at $115.89 on the 330 then add overtime and night credits (nothing extra on 78 hence higher rate). Those on the A scale will take 7 years to reach 170 per hour, and agree 300K a year is a pipe dream unless been at Qantas 12+ years on 380 and pick the overtime trips.

[Makiko]

Well that may be your opinion SP

I believe my data is accurate, for example when did I say anything about recruitment that was
pretty close to the money. Nobody has the exact data (aside from QF HR)

& it is my view that a couple of very important clauses in EBA 10 gave QF way to much latitude

People talk about contractual stuff-ups , the forgetting "sunset clause" etc , well for the implementation of B Scale
, the part that was forgotten was the "sunrise clause" (no pun intended) . Significant error

QF will never back down, happy collegial talk won't solve it , they have drawn their line in the sand

The only way to resolve it will be to litigate it & then slug it out in court (probably worth "final" warning - but unlikely to work), press for urgent hearing

You aren't trying to get Mabo over the line , its 10 words in a contract simple case

Otherwise you are going to have 100s of SOs locked into B Scale SO , years before the A350 arrives , company sleight of hand

Does anyone believe the A350 will arrive in late 2025 ?

[Don Diego]

Shandy, it is my understanding that the AFAP has “formed” a Qantas pilot council, but with only a handful of members there isn’t a snowflakes chance in hell they will take on Qantas in this matter or I suspect any other.

[SandyPalms]

Thanks for the reply Makiko.

slug it out? Nobody is suggesting Mabo and the vibe will fix it. It looks like the company haven’t done anything illegal. What exactly will going to court to slug it out do?
The A380 is clearly a breach and that’s why the company has filed in the federal court. They want to delay it for ever or at least until it no longer matters. The SOT thing, is not. Going to court doesn’t fix it. That is not my opionion. It’s just not as simple as that.

[Makiko]

We are talking civil , not whether someone has acted unlawfully

Why could it not be argued that introducing a B scale as you are hiring someone & tagging them AirbusMFF
years before the A350 arrives is a breach of the EBA clause- "B scale implemented when SOs recruited for 330/350 dual role"

This was done in 2022 - does anyone think the A350 will arrive before 2026 ?

So what you would be doing is asking the Judge to issue an order that B scale introduction date be pushed back , to a date that aligns more closely
with the arrival of the AC. And request orders that those affected be compensated for lost monies & be put on A Scale Airbus SO rates

This is where it could get very messy, how do you compensate someone who jumped to 737

Its a simple question for a Judge to resolve , is putting someone on A350 B Scale (where the company will save tens of millions) years before the aircraft
arrives a try on ?

[dr dre]

Its a simple question for a Judge to resolve , is putting someone on A350 B Scale (where the company will save tens of millions) years before the aircraft
arrives a try on ?

And it’s a pretty simple answer:

The rates in clause 32.7 will apply to all new S/O’s commencing employment under this Agreement after the Company has:

(a) placed an initial order for the A350 and has done so on the basis that it intends to have pilots operate the aircraft on the terms set out in EBA10; and

(b) commenced recruitment of S/O’s into the A330/A350SFF category

(a) was satisfied in May last year.

(b) has already started. The EA doesn’t specify a minimum time before aircraft arrival when that category can commence, just that when it starts the new pay rates apply.

You might not see this as ethical but it probably isn’t illegal.

[transition_alt]

QF’s argument would also be that crew need to be trained before an aircraft’s arrival.

How long before? Well, it’s not written anywhere, so they can make it up

[Makiko]

Both criteria need to be met & I think the second one is problematic for QF & also "got past" AIPA ( & asleep at the wheel attorneys)

Is it fair , reasonable etc to unilaterally state you are hiring for A350 , when the aircraft is years away ?

Is that normal practice ?, has it been done before ? , oh & it saves QF a large amount of money & perhaps contributes to the direct personal
financial benefit of a number of QF Exec/Managers etc in terms of a bonus payment

It will look even more ridiculous if special build A350 delayed to 26/27 or so , which is probably quite likely

They can't just "make it up" , it isn't Dodge City & the employees have rights in Australia

But if you simply choose not to assert those rights that's also your free choice to make

[SandyPalms]

It would be lovely if we could argue all those things Makito. But the language is in print. We may not like it (I don’t like it either), but let be realistic, what’s the point of fighting about it? New SO’s just need to understand the state of play and plan accordingly. Neither You, I, or AIPA or the AFAP the TWU or even the CFMEU are able change it. It sucks yes, but it’s already law,

[RealSatoshi]

The rates in clause 32.7 will apply to all new S/O’s commencing employment under this Agreement after the Company has:
(a) placed an initial order for the A350 and has done so on the basis that it intends to have pilots operate the aircraft on the terms set out in EBA10; and
(b) commenced recruitment of S/O’s into the A330/A350SFF category

Poorly worded agreement by a union that collects 0.88% of Annual Gross Salary from every member...The Mind Boggles.

After delivering a record A$1.43 billion half-year profit, QF resorts to the above..meanwhile...Emirates posted a $2.9 billion profit for the fiscal year ended on March 31 and will reward all 50 000+ employees with a bonus equivalent to 24 Weeks Of Pay with their May salary.

Emirates Pays Employees SIX MONTHS Worth Of Salary After Posting Record Profits (https://loyaltylobby.com/2023/05/12/emirates-pays-employees-six-months-worth-of-salary-bonus-after-posting-2-9b-record-profit/?omhide=true)

Bin Chicken International as alluded by some, probably not that far off after all :\

[ddrwk]

meanwhile...Emirates posted a $2.9 billion profit for the fiscal year ended on March 31 and will reward all 50 000+ employees with a bonus equivalent to 24 Weeks Of Pay with their May salary.


Yes I’m sure they’re doing it out of kindness.

Did you actually read the article?

’Carriers like Emirates are under constant pressure to recruit sufficient numbers of staff and this will no doubt help them with future recruitment efforts.’

[Ladloy]

Poorly worded agreement by a union that collects 0.88% of Annual Gross Salary from every member...The Mind Boggles.

After delivering a record A$1.43 billion half-year profit, QF resorts to the above..meanwhile...Emirates posted a $2.9 billion profit for the fiscal year ended on March 31 and will reward all 50 000+ employees with a bonus equivalent to 24 Weeks Of Pay with their May salary.

Emirates Pays Employees SIX MONTHS Worth Of Salary After Posting Record Profits (https://loyaltylobby.com/2023/05/12/emirates-pays-employees-six-months-worth-of-salary-bonus-after-posting-2-9b-record-profit/?omhide=true)

Bin Chicken International as alluded by some, probably not that far off after all :\
Singapore also paying 8 months worth of pay to all its workers.

[Ollie Onion]

We will just get the same old ****, ‘not time to be reckless’, ‘important to keep costs under control’, ‘outlook challenging’……..

[engine out]

Out sourcing flights to Finnair now.

[Chadzat]

At what point do we as a collective industry group say enough is enough…..

[RealSatoshi]

Yes I’m sure they’re doing it out of kindness.
Did you actually read the article?
’Carriers like Emirates are under constant pressure to recruit sufficient numbers of staff and this will no doubt help them with future recruitment efforts.’
Sure, I'll raise you by one: Singapore Air Hands Staff Eight Months’ Salary Bonus After Record Results (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-18/singapore-air-hands-staff-eight-months-salary-bonus-after-record-results#xj4y7vzkg)

[Koizi]

New Qantas Pilot Recruiting site just went live:

https://company.finnair.com/en/careers/pilots

[ddrwk]

Sure, I'll raise you by one: Singapore Air Hands Staff Eight Months’ Salary Bonus After Record Results (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-18/singapore-air-hands-staff-eight-months-salary-bonus-after-record-results#xj4y7vzkg)

Singair are also looking into DEC's. Still think they're altruistic?

[Capt_SNAFU]

What is the pay a Finnair 330 pilot gets?

[RealSatoshi]

Singair are also looking into DEC's. Still think they're altruistic?
...and so is QF looking at 350's while already paying B-Scales :ok:

This while the CEO is the highest earner per market cap when compared to all of his peers in the US.

[ddrwk]

...and so is QF looking at 350's while already paying B-Scales :ok:

So both airlines are just as bad as each other? I agree.

This while the CEO is the highest earner per market cap when compared to all of his peers in the US.

Sounds like you’d be happier working for an airline with a lower paid CEO? You should look into that.

[dejapoo]

What is the pay a Finnair 330 pilot gets?

Legacy bin chicken wages... think Alliance + 700%

[Makiko]

Last from me on this point

SP, why do you say "its law" , laws are something that are passed by parliaments , its a workplace agreement / contract, it doesn't have status
of an act of parliament

Or are you saying , because QF management decide to interpret in a particular way , that is "the law"

Think just have to agree to disagree, & the point of the disagreement is interpretation of the employment contract

If another clause was added stating "The commencement of recruitment to category 330/350 will be at the sole discretion of QF Airways , irrespective of datal arrival of 350 fleet"

Think you would have a bigger battle, but black letter words get struck out from contract/statutes all the time for all sorts of legal reasons (legal principels, unconstit , violates case law) , well above my skill set

There are things a Pilot Union (PU) could do about it whether the PU be AIPA, TWU or the BScale SOs acting for themselves.

You would almost certainly have to litigate it & seek orders , B Scale scrapped for moment, compensation/back pay etc etc. Big Unions are in the courts all the time & they win on a regular basis

What's the issue with going to court , if an employer has acted in a way that is wrong, its nothing personal
Its part of the system, otherwise you are just letting these guys walk all over you

Introducing 350 category 4 + years out would be very hard (imho) to get past a judge , for new types (QF /ANZ) , SOs typically arrive at most 6 months before first AC.
Good chance a judge would see it as blatant cost cutting & executives maximising their direct personal financial benefit . Really just rolling the eyes & saying "nice try"

Aussie corporates get pinged all the time in the Courts for cheeky "try-ons" , & make good orders are issued

[maverick4442]

Legacy bin chicken wages... think Alliance + 700%

Cannot get much lower than Alliance E190/ Network wages should be embarrassed working under such rubbish conditions.
Bin Chickens dragging down Australian Pilot wages.

[soseg]

At what point do we as a collective industry group say enough is enough…..
Never when you have captains at network who are rumoured to say things like, "yeah I'll sign the EBA just for that $5,000 bonus"

[aussieflyboy]

Cannot get much lower than Alliance E190/ Network wages should be embarrassed working under such rubbish conditions.
Bin Chickens dragging down Australian Pilot wages.

Did you not see what 60% of NJS Pilot voted for? A yes vote to fly a jet the size of a 737 for the same pay as a 717. And a reduction of rest time around days off!! What an embarrassment!

[maverick4442]

Did you not see what 60% of NJS Pilot voted for? A yes vote to fly a jet the size of a 737 for the same pay as a 717. And a reduction of rest time around days off!! What an embarrassment!

Yes did see that.
Threat to outsource and voters come out of the wood work.
Nothing more than an embarrassment.
Is it worth going to work doing the exact same job under a worse agreement?
Do other professions go backwards in conditions and pay if the company purchases new equipment?
Did we all get into this profession to be paid less and less each time a EBA expires?


Is it any different to Short Haul and the 20 321XLR?
Bigger jet for what in return?

When do you draw the line in and the sand and say NO?

[ShandywithSugar]

Never when you have captains at network who are rumoured to say things like, "yeah I'll sign the EBA just for that $5,000 bonus"

But accepting that will save Captains having to work 10 days off or 16 days off for FOs :yuk:

[RealSatoshi]

SIA Press Release:
Singapore Airlines (SIA) will be rewarding eligible employees with a profit-sharing bonus of 6.65 months following the group’s record earnings and a maximum total of 1.5 months of ex-gratia bonus in recognition of their hard work and sacrifices during the pandemic.

Singair are also looking into DEC's. Still think they're altruistic?
So too are NJS and Network - following your logic, both pilot groups should soon receive their 6 to 8 Months' Bonus Pay for DEC's inbound...not hard work and/or sacrifices during the pandemic. :=

A performance-based bonus is an extra compensation granted to a team member as a reward for reaching pre-established goals and benchmarks. Leadership often rewards their teams with performance bonuses after evaluating outstanding projects or high-quality work performances.

A sign-on bonus is a monetary reward that an employer offers to an employee when the employee begins a new job. A sign-on bonus may come in the form of a single payment, multiple payments over a specified period or stock options.

[ddrwk]

SIA Press Release:
Singapore Airlines (SIA) will be rewarding eligible employees with a profit-sharing bonus of 6.65 months following the group’s record earnings and a maximum total of 1.5 months of ex-gratia bonus in recognition of their hard work and sacrifices during the pandemic.

Oh it was in a press release? From the very same company who are already able to employ DECs?

My mistake. I didn’t realise the trustworthiness of your sources.

I’ve no idea who you’re employed by but if you walk in to your managers office and demand a 6 month bonus, be sure to make a threat about leaving, and make damn sure you’re prepared to follow through. Otherwise, why would they pay?

[Ollie Onion]

Why do people think you should get paid more for flying bigger jets?

[Lookleft]

Because the more people that require your skillset to be employed means the more people that can pay for those skillsets to be employed.

[Ollie Onion]

That makes no sense though, on any given day I might fly four flights with 186 pax which is 744 passengers moved on a single day with exposure to 4 takes offs, 4 landings and 4 lots of loading and ground handling as opposed to a 380 Pilot who moves 485 on a full flight with one take off and one landing and one lot of loading etc. The argument for more money based the more people means the A320/737 Pilot clearly should get paid more?

Problem with an Airline where the SO rank can get paid more than an FO or an FO as much as a Captain based on the Aircraft you fly is that it drives perverse outcomes in crew bidding, if all fleets were based on a single pay structure using rank and time in the company it would mean people would just bid for the flying they want as opposed to the most lucrative.

Still after the reign of Joyce we have a group that has multiple contracts, pay scales, opportunities based on nothing more than a desire to fracture employee groups and play them off against each other, in that he has been massively successful,

[maverick4442]

Why do people think you should get paid more for flying bigger jets?

If you are flying under an agreement current aircraft let’s say 717 / 737 then all of a sudden a new aircraft is being introduced being A220/A321xlr is it fair that you do it for nothing extra ?

In my opinion I thought that was going backwards….

[Ollie Onion]

If you are flying under an agreement current aircraft let’s say 717 / 737 then all of a sudden a new aircraft is being introduced being A220/A321xlr is it fair that you do it for nothing extra ?

In my opinion I thought that was going backwards….

I think it is fair to be honest, why would you expect more, it is just another aircraft,

[alphacentauri]

is it fair that you do it for nothing extra ?

What extra are you doing that warrants this extra pay?

[maverick4442]

[QUOTE=Ollie Onion;11438812]I think it is fair to be honest, why would you expect more, it is just another aircraft,[/QUOTE

Ok so when you say “ it’s just another aircraft “ are you implying it doesn’t matter what aircraft you fly on a EA the pay rates should be the same?

[ScepticalOptomist]

[QUOTE=Ollie Onion;11438812]I think it is fair to be honest, why would you expect more, it is just another aircraft,[/QUOTE

Ok so when you say “ it’s just another aircraft “ are you implying it doesn’t matter what aircraft you fly on a EA the pay rates should be the same?

What’s this idea of “should be” or “fair”?
There is only what you have negotiated. The rest is moot.
Work for the low cost arm of a legacy - generally lower pay. Work for a legacy - generally slower promotion but better pay.

You get what you get!

[Ollie Onion]

I agree, what interests me is the ‘how can the NJS pilots vote up a contract where they get nothing extra for flying bigger aircraft’. If you already have the rates in your EBA then good for you. You soundnt expect extra though just because the new aircraft is bigger. A lot of airlines don’t have fleet pay but just a pay scale that doesn’t differ between fleets, seems to have less downside.

[aussieflyboy]

I agree, what interests me is the ‘how can the NJS pilots vote up a contract where they get nothing extra for flying bigger aircraft’. If you already have the rates in your EBA then good for you. You soundnt expect extra though just because the new aircraft is bigger. A lot of airlines don’t have fleet pay but just a pay scale that doesn’t differ between fleets, seems to have less downside.

As the company gets bigger the CEO and Board get paid more.

As an aircraft gets bigger it’s not unreasonable to assume the Pilots should get paid more. 50% bigger does not mean 50% more pay. However, if you have 20% more seats and are still selling a MEL-BNE at the same seat price and the aircraft is considerably more fuel efficient it’s completely reasonable to assume the pilots should benefit with a pay increase. More responsibility should equal more pay.

[maverick4442]

I agree, what interests me is the ‘how can the NJS pilots vote up a contract where they get nothing extra for flying bigger aircraft’. If you already have the rates in your EBA then good for you. You soundnt expect extra though just because the new aircraft is bigger. A lot of airlines don’t have fleet pay but just a pay scale that doesn’t differ between fleets, seems to have less downside.

I am a little lost Ollie,

My above comment you said it was fair…
Now you are saying it’s not fair for the NJS pilots….

717-A220 for nothing extra is not fair in my opinion.

No different to the 737-A321XLR

[megan]

Why do people think you should get paid more for flying bigger jetsI'm reminded of the little old lady asking the Captain "When do you fly more carfeully, with 100 passengers on board, or 200?", his reply, "I don't care how many passengers are on board, I only care about arriving safely myself, I don't even think about the passengers". No argument there for a pay rise based on passenger numbers.

Another view, if an aircraft is introduced that has double the passenger load over and above the previous that means only half the number of crews are required (all other things being equal). Hands up those who want to lose their job? ;)

[soseg]

I could put forth the argument that if you fly a frame that only has the words Qantas on the side, not QantasLink, you should be getting a hefty pay rise.

Why?

Well, because thanks to AJ's divide+conquer and giving everything to subsidiaries, their future is bleek.

If you're lucky, right now, 19 years for a command.
Domestically everything keeps being given away to Network Aviation in the west, National Jet in the east, Alliance in the centre, JetConnect across the tasman.
Now even more international flying is being handed to Alliance/NJS.

Flight ops webinar for the 737 pilots and theyre literally telling them how the a220 is the future and how amazing it will be for the network and that might have a good business case for more than 29 of them.
Meanwhile the 737 fleet shrinks from 75 down to... 20? 40 if lucky?

International is sweet-F-all. Frames being cut up or converted then a few months later... oh no we need Finnair frames/pilots/cabincrew to fly out of Sydney.

Mainline is dying. The last legacy carrier in Australia has no future.

The future is being a QantasLink bin chicken or a budget Jetstar pilot. Or whatever VA is at the moment.
Stress & Skill:Reward ratio is probably better being a bus/train/tram driver.

That's one argument. Someone prove it wrong.

[maverick4442]

I could put forth the argument that if you fly a frame that only has the words Qantas on the side, not QantasLink, you should be getting a hefty pay rise.

Why?

Well, because thanks to AJ's divide+conquer and giving everything to subsidiaries, their future is bleek.

If you're lucky, right now, 19 years for a command.
Domestically everything keeps being given away to Network Aviation in the west, National Jet in the east, Alliance in the centre, JetConnect across the tasman.
Now even more international flying is being handed to Alliance/NJS.

Flight ops webinar for the 737 pilots and theyre literally telling them how the a220 is the future and how amazing it will be for the network and that might have a good business case for more than 29 of them.
Meanwhile the 737 fleet shrinks from 75 down to... 20? 40 if lucky?

International is sweet-F-all. Frames being cut up or converted then a few months later... oh no we need Finnair frames/pilots/cabincrew to fly out of Sydney.

Mainline is dying. The last legacy carrier in Australia has no future.

The future is being a QantasLink bin chicken or a budget Jetstar pilot. Or whatever VA is at the moment.
Stress & Skill:Reward ratio is probably better being a bus/train/tram driver.

That's one argument. Someone prove it wrong.

Going to be hard for someone to prove it wrong Soseg

Hit the nail on the head

[dr dre]

Someone prove it wrong.

Wait until mainline training year allocations are released within the upcoming weeks to confirm the future at mainline. If it’s as big as has been suggested it would confirm a lot of movement ahead.

[soseg]

Wait until mainline training year allocations are released within the upcoming weeks to confirm the future at mainline. If it’s as big as has been suggested it would confirm a lot of movement ahead.

Perhaps. Perhaps big when compared to the previous decade.

Could be a lot better if flying wasn't being sent to QLinks

[neville_nobody]

Why do people think you should get paid more for flying bigger jets?

Because you generate more revenue.......

[JamieMaree]

What a load of rubbish.
The QF pay system is based on the North American contract system out of the 1960s. The bigger the aircraft and the faster it flies, the more the pilot gets paid. Qf have never had a speed/ weight formula for pay but it’s little brother have served it’s pilots well.

[ArthurSlugworth]

What a load of rubbish.
The QF pay system is based on the North American contract system out of the 1960s. The bigger the aircraft and the faster it flies, the more the pilot gets paid. Qf have never had a speed/ weight formula for pay but it’s little brother have served it’s pilots well.

It's time to move out of the 1960s and into 2023... US$450k should do it.

Regardless of what you state the origin of these contracts are, we're only worth what we bargain and our ability to do so has been significantly obstructed by the lopsided industrial relations landscape. Labor have already made inroads with policy reform and look set to continue. Time will tell what it holds for us.

[Jc31]

Because you generate more revenue.......
per flight maybe but per year I’m betting the narrow body and regional crews doing 4 sectors 5 days a week earn more revenue for the group than a 380 crew doing two trips a month

[boongcactus]

Spot on maverick. What other profession is expected to fund the capex to purchase a new fleet? I don’t believe miners have to give up conditions so they can drive a new digger etc. Mean while certain groups will either get bent over and cave in, while others work on substandard wages for the chance to get a faster promotions. There is a reason why Mainline has only secured 20xlrs, be expected for more “consessions” or the threat of having it outsourced will be played on repeat. I’m not sure what the answer is, but if you look over the pond the US carriers seem to have a lot more spine than we do. There are a couple of big EBAs expiring over the next couple of years maybe some collective bargaining and having some balls will change the outcome.Hopefully these new IR reforms will work in our favour to lift the bottom up. If not I guess it’s more of the same. Hunting around like seagulls looking for a few chips on the ground thinking we’ve won the lottery.

[DirectAnywhere]

Sick leave and fuel.

Leave the company with zero of either.

Both make your life easier, either at home or at work, and they’re about all you can directly influence these days.

[maverick4442]

Spot on maverick. What other profession is expected to fund the capex to purchase a new fleet? I don’t believe miners have to give up conditions so they can drive a new digger etc. Mean while certain groups will either get bent over and cave in, while others work on substandard wages for the chance to get a faster promotions. There is a reason why Mainline has only secured 20xlrs, be expected for more “consessions” or the threat of having it outsourced will be played on repeat. I’m not sure what the answer is, but if you look over the pond the US carriers seem to have a lot more spine than we do. There are a couple of big EBAs expiring over the next couple of years maybe some collective bargaining and having some balls will change the outcome.Hopefully these new IR reforms will work in our favour to lift the bottom up. If not I guess it’s more of the same. Hunting around like seagulls looking for a few chips on the ground thinking we’ve won the lottery.

Boong spot on could not agree more!

[ShandywithSugar]

Hunting around like seagulls looking for a few chips on the ground thinking we’ve won the lottery.

At the very least the A320 has a contract covering the crew unlike the E190 individual contracts played base against base for the flying. But don't forget they're painted as QantasLink and the punters know no different.

Upcoming EAs are a pivotal time for us all in all carriers. We must remain united. Trust in the process. Bring everyone with us.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Anyone know of ground schools beyond June?

[Swept-Wing]

Anyone know of ground schools beyond June?

No.

Hope this helps.

[RV123]

Hi everyone! Just wondering on what everyone's thoughts were about where to apply if you want to fly from BNE or PER...
I'm a permanent resident (born in Belgium) and recently got my CASA ATPL and 4000 flight hours and will now be starting to apply to places...
Thanks a lot for any tips and guidance! :)

[Avi8terdude2023]

Anyone know of ground schools beyond June?

yes heard about someone who got into the august course.

[dr dre]

Anyone know of ground schools beyond June?

New Intake courses planned for every month of the rest of the year. Probably waiting to confirm dates and sim availability due to the large amount of Capt and FO training being done in the second half of the year.

[On Guard]

yes heard about someone who got into the august course.

Internal or External?
Do you know when they got the yes?

[Avi8terdude2023]

Internal or External?
Do you know when they got the yes?

im not sure as don’t know them personally but when checking in I was told possibly not to expect anything this year and I got my yes last July.

[LeastFuelMostSafe]

I offer a little advice for the sky gods that have 'graduated' from QFPP in Zoowoomba.

You're failing your interviews for Qantas subsidiaries in spectacular fashion. Word is getting around.

Just because the word Qantas is loosely involved in your pilot training, does not mean that you are guaranteed a job at Qantas or any of its subsidiaries.

Please, prepare for your interviews properly. If you spent $100k or you're a female and got a Qantas grant for your training, at least spend $500 in an interview coaching session to prepare. Go to Flight Experience and do an introductory session to learn the characteristics of a jet.

Know your IFR knowledge back to front.

Sincerely, your future cockpit buddy.

[On Guard]

im not sure as don’t know them personally but when checking in I was told possibly not to expect anything this year and I got my yes last July.

Yes I was the same and was October yes. Think they’re doing a lot of internal.

[smiling monkey]

I offer a little advice for the sky gods that have 'graduated' from QFPP in Zoowoomba.

You're failing your interviews for Qantas subsidiaries in spectacular fashion. Word is getting around.

Just because the word Qantas is loosely involved in your pilot training, does not mean that you are guaranteed a job at Qantas or any of its subsidiaries.

Please, prepare for your interviews properly. If you spent $100k or you're a female and got a Qantas grant for your training, at least spend $500 in an interview coaching session to prepare. Go to Flight Experience and do an introductory session to learn the characteristics of a jet.

Know your IFR knowledge back to front.

Sincerely, your future cockpit buddy.

Do they even meet the minimum's for the likes of NJS, EFA and Network? Those operators require at least 1000 to 1500 hours minimum.

[q400link]

Do they even meet the minimum's for the likes of NJS, EFA and Network? Those operators require at least 1000 to 1500 hours minimum.
They don't need to.

[smiling monkey]

They don't need to.

Just goes to show how BS those minimum requirements are when you need pilots.

[BoomTimes]

They don't need to.

Incorrect.

[Angle of Attack]

At the moment a pulse and a valid license will get you a look in anywhere…

[gordonfvckingramsay]

At the moment a pulse and a valid license will get you a look in anywhere…


And/or a foreign passport.

[sellect]

Any word on when Qantas will accept new applications again?

[Slezy9]

Apparently still 300 on the hold file, I guess it depends on how quickly it depletes.

[Makiko]

Likely 18 months at present rate

How are Qlink dash releasing the 130 or so they have on HF ?

Seniority or performance in selection process ? JQ release to ML on seniority , Network ?

Internals processed again in January 2024 , get another 150 or so & you are good until the end of 2025

Not seeing a lot of opportunity for applications to open to externals, but QF have been telling people this since 2016 - we hire to group & then you can jump around

Looking all closed up in the USA atm for Regional FO entry - game changes yet again

[soseg]

Apparently still 300 on the hold file, I guess it depends on how quickly it depletes.

And how many quit the day after QF gives them a 737 TR, going off to fly in the USA.

[Makiko]

Yes they will be quitting in their hundreds

It would be so tempting to leave your home country legacy , that has never (well 50 years) made a pilot compulsory redundant
to go work on a two year renewable visa , in a country where almost all majors have been in bankruptcy, lost employee pensions & furloughed
a quarter of pilots in 2001 & GFC, often for several years , in this century

The retirees from USA big three are in such a vastly superior position to guys who did 40 years at QF (Donald, Dooonaaald where is my pension ?)

QF mainline pilots are treated with such "disrespect" & work under such appalling repressing contracts

They will all go to the USA

Look at the resignation data , 100s every month quitting " I'm not going to take it anymore""

[maggot]

Yeah but some have, recently. FAA check during training and off to atlas etc

Qf bond but not much afaik

[Makiko]

People claim that , have to say I would be sceptical
Interesting decision especially if they got in before A scale Airbus SO closed
As you would be earning less money in the USA, living on the other side of the world on a two year (okay renewable) contract , oh & the joys of a 4 day "commute" monthly, glocks at the primary school. Wokey stuff to another level , " interesting" leaders, smashing around the world for 17 days straight - staying 4 star unstable roster. Yes some parts would be fun , but there would indeed be some challenges . Each to their own
Atlas quoted "average earnings" based on Covid danger zone payments - they were wildly exaggerated in terms of what you would get now
But yes I do know some guys from subsidiaries who went & more than one who is begging for old job back

Its exactly the same reason why QF isn't going to get anyone apply to join A220 from Air France, Delta, Air Canada , Swiss . Leaving a premium/legacy to go join 2nd tier - not a great idea. NJS should send their recruiting team out to Tanzania

[soseg]

People claim that , have to say I would be sceptical
Interesting decision especially if they got in before A scale Airbus SO closed
As you would be earning less money in the USA, living on the other side of the world on a two year (okay renewable) contract , oh & the joys of a 4 day "commute" monthly, glocks at the primary school. Wokey stuff to another level , " interesting" leaders, smashing around the world for 17 days straight - staying 4 star unstable roster. Yes some parts would be fun , but there would indeed be some challenges . Each to their own
Atlas quoted "average earnings" based on Covid danger zone payments - they were wildly exaggerated in terms of what you would get now
But yes I do know some guys from subsidiaries who went & more than one who is begging for old job back

Its exactly the same reason why QF isn't going to get anyone apply to join A220 from Air France, Delta, Air Canada , Swiss . Leaving a premium/legacy to go join 2nd tier - not a great idea. NJS should send their recruiting team out to Tanzania

It's almost 4pm in Sydney. Arent you meant to be patting puppies and doing yoga on a Friday? Which department in management do you work in?

The fact is, plenty new starters, or about-to-starters have given QF the flick. Why would you bother if you're say... 40 or older? You may never see a command.
Why would you bother if you've already done time overseas in a reputable airline like CX (before it went south), or the middle east? Sit as an SO for how long? Or get worked hard on the maggot for how long?
News flash buddy. Mainline has been shrinking for over 15 years now. The only progression mainline guys and girls are seeing is purely due to retirements. Go compare the fleet size of today versus 2010 or 2005.

Every new frame is going to QLink.

Stop trying to push your management narrative here. You're not being paid to sit on pprune. Get back to work.

[Makiko]

Patting puppies - do they actually do that " on campus" ?

Doesn't surprise me

But face facts a lot of the QF Groups pilots enjoy spending time in the " Safe Space" stripping down to their underwear & jumping into some soft toys

The Group has been appallingly managed , its beyond words the departing one & goodness knows what his competitor for CEO would have done

As we all got to see his "talent" at another Airline

Oh & the Chap before Current one , got "no respect" from the Americans so took his hissy fit all the way to Airbus

But the group pilots have been served even worse by their Unions & walked into every rookie trap set by the buffoon management.

The "let's all resign" mob (afap) allow contracts to lapse by years & years & AIPA - well how many leaders over past few years. AIPA seems like a training ground
for QF management , where previous leaders take acquired skills & boost their personal financial situation by joining Airline management

Pilots do not have the skills , experience , qualifications to be running trade unions - it is one disaster after another . 787 contract & then agreeing to a B Scale , spooked by a kindergarten
level threat

Easy to play the man , but tell me what parts of above post I got wrong. We all know people don't leave legacies to chance their arm
in 2nd tier on other side of the world

Same old drama statements , folks jumping ship from HF - we all know that isn't happening

[soseg]

Patting puppies - do they actually do that " on campus" ?

Doesn't surprise me

But face facts a lot of the QF Groups pilots enjoy spending time in the " Safe Space" stripping down to their underwear & jumping into some soft toys

The Group has been appallingly managed , its beyond words the departing one & goodness knows what his competitor for CEO would have done

As we all got to see his "talent" at another Airline

Oh & the Chap before Current one , got "no respect" from the Americans so took his hissy fit all the way to Airbus

But the group pilots have been served even worse by their Unions & walked into every rookie trap set by the buffoon management.

The "let's all resign" mob (afap) allow contracts to lapse by years & years & AIPA - well how many leaders over past few years. AIPA seems like a training ground
for QF management , where previous leaders take acquired skills & boost their personal financial situation by joining Airline management

Pilots do not have the skills , experience , qualifications to be running trade unions - it is one disaster after another . 787 contract & then agreeing to a B Scale , spooked by a kindergarten
level threat

Easy to play the man , but tell me what parts of above post I got wrong. We all know people don't leave legacies to chance their arm
in 2nd tier on other side of the world

Same old drama statements , folks jumping ship from HF - we all know that isn't happening


The part you got wrong was claiming nobody from QF has left, or is looking to leave.

Also , learn , how , to , comma and how to " use" " inverted " " commas".

Painful reading something that a 5th grader could type out more clearly.

[josephfeatherweight]

Wokey stuff to another level , " interesting" leaders,
You are talking about Qantas, yeah?

[MaxAuto]

Apparently still 300 on the hold file, I guess it depends on how quickly it depletes.

Does that 300 include both off the street hires and subsidiary Pilots?

[Slezy9]

Does that 300 include both off the street hires and subsidiary Pilots?

I was only going off this article, Qantas wants to hire foreign pilots (https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal/qantas-wants-to-recruit-300-foreign-pilots-and-engineers-for-domestic-fleet-20230530-p5dchm.html).

Quote from AIPA president,

There is no shortage of Australian pilots, with more than 300 highly qualified pilots on the waiting list for jobs at the Spirit of Australia

[maggot]

Does that 300 include both off the street hires and subsidiary Pilots?
That's the current hold pool
I heard they wish to deplete it before reopening or something like that.

[MaxAuto]

That's the current hold pool
I heard they wish to deplete it before reopening or something like that.

Thanks for the info. I guess it also depends whether they’re still conducting interviews. That would prevent the pool from depleting.

[dr dre]

Meanwhile the 737 fleet shrinks from 75 down to... 20? 40 if lucky?

Mainline is dying. The last legacy carrier in Australia has no future.

That's one argument. Someone prove it wrong.

Well after recent allocations of the next financial year’s training, it looks to be the biggest in mainline history. Over 150 new pilots on the supposedly “shrinking fleet”.

The projections for the 24/25 financial year are apparently even higher, and that’s only taking into account a small proportion being trained for the 321 and 350. Most of that will be for existing fleets.

So proven wrong? Perhaps……

[On Guard]

Well after recent allocations of the next financial year’s training, it looks to be the biggest in mainline history. Over 150 new pilots on the supposedly “shrinking fleet”.

The projections for the 24/25 financial year are apparently even higher, and that’s only taking into account a small proportion being trained for the 321 and 350. Most of that will be for existing fleets.

So proven wrong? Perhaps……

Always appreciate your info from inside Dre. Looks like exciting times ahead. I was told to expect call up q1 24. It may well move forward.

[aussieflyboy]

Well after recent allocations of the next financial year’s training, it looks to be the biggest in mainline history. Over 150 new pilots on the supposedly “shrinking fleet”.

The projections for the 24/25 financial year are apparently even higher, and that’s only taking into account a small proportion being trained for the 321 and 350. Most of that will be for existing fleets.

So proven wrong? Perhaps……

Or an insight into just how many people have left for greener pastures…

[morno]

Or an insight into just how many people have left for greener pastures…

Jealous you’re not involved mate? Certainly not many that have left for greener pastures.

[dr dre]

Or an insight into just how many people have left for greener pastures…

Not really - retirements to age 65 are low for the next 2 years thanks to VR. Whilst there may be a few new hire S/O resignations the training allocations only covered Capt and FO positions - and I can’t think of any who’ve resigned mainline for another job. If there are they are few and far between, and nowhere near the total of over 300 training positions. The vacancies were mostly because of increased 737 and 330 demand.

[soseg]

Well after recent allocations of the next financial year’s training, it looks to be the biggest in mainline history. Over 150 new pilots on the supposedly “shrinking fleet”.

The projections for the 24/25 financial year are apparently even higher, and that’s only taking into account a small proportion being trained for the 321 and 350. Most of that will be for existing fleets.

So proven wrong? Perhaps……

Purely retirements.

Youre not implying short and long haul aren’t shrinking are you?

[soseg]

The vacancies were mostly because of increased 737 and 330 demand.

“Why are the mainline pilots annoyed about Finnair? This is magically creating promotions.”

Dre, in the past your posts and insights have been great. You’re on the koolaid now.

[morno]

Purely retirements.

Youre not implying short and long haul aren’t shrinking are you?

What do you get out of being a f**kwit? Are you jealous you don’t work there? The E-Jet not working for you?

Why do you insist that mainline is shrinking when there’s very little evidence to support it? A few A220’s going to NJS, whoopdee doo. These buffoons don’t know how to order a fleet of aircraft, every chance that they’ll replace the whole 737 fleet with A321’s but they’re too chicken to spend that much money in advance.

[soseg]

What do you get out of being a f**kwit? Are you jealous you don’t work there? The E-Jet not working for you?

Why do you insist that mainline is shrinking when there’s very little evidence to support it? A few A220’s going to NJS, whoopdee doo. These buffoons don’t know how to order a fleet of aircraft, every chance that they’ll replace the whole 737 fleet with A321’s but they’re too chicken to spend that much money in advance.

You let me know when QF order not 75 a321 XLRS, but the 55 or so that’s needed to keep the short haul pilot ranks the same number, as every 321 frame will require more pilots than the same amount of 737 pilots.

That one is in your favour. I can easily ask you to let me know when it’s 1:1 with 75 replacements over the next decade.

Secondly, what was the fleet size in 2010? I genuinely don’t know.

QF is up 12 Dreamliners in 15 years with two about to arrive.

Down 2x 380s and 2x 330s with two more rumoured to also get turned into freighters.

How many 747s were retired in the last decade? How many 767s went in the last 10 to 15 years?

Go tell the guys and girls in Adelaide how QF isn’t replacing them with out sourced work.

[aussieflyboy]

What do you get out of being a f**kwit? Are you jealous you don’t work there? The E-Jet not working for you?

Why do you insist that mainline is shrinking when there’s very little evidence to support it? A few A220’s going to NJS, whoopdee doo. These buffoons don’t know how to order a fleet of aircraft, every chance that they’ll replace the whole 737 fleet with A321’s but they’re too chicken to spend that much money in advance.

The NJS issue isn’t something to ignore mate. Qantas Management are not using these to fly current NJS routes (although initially they will for ease of training) E-Jets will be doing that, the A220 will be flying current ‘mainline’ routes. Wait till the Paris Airshow and a sneaky announcement from Airbus about an A220-500 and then bye bye QF 737s!

[soseg]

The -500 version of the a220 should be a serious concern for all QF pilots who give half a **** about short haul.

[RealSatoshi]

The -500 version of the a220 should be a serious concern for all QF pilots who give half a **** about short haul.
Absolutely correct...and it would have been there for everyone to see, had they become more efficient in continuously asking "What are they NOT telling us?"...as has been advocated for a long time.

Unfortunately, too many ostriches (including unions) in Australian aviation :ugh:

[tossbag]

What do you get out of being a f**kwit?

I'm tipping he gets the same kick that you get out of it :ok:​​​​​​​

[dr dre]

“Why are the mainline pilots annoyed about Finnair? This is magically creating promotions.”


Over 100 new pilots coming onto the A330.

Promotions - East Coast Long Haul F/O now at 6 years seniority - a big improvement compared to the past.



Why do you insist that mainline is shrinking when there’s very little evidence to support it? A few A220’s going to NJS, whoopdee doo.

The one thing supporting the purchase of more 321XLRs over even a proposed A220-500 is a lack of terminal and parking space and a growing population. Immigration is increasing and airports in Australia aren’t getting any bigger, not soon anyway. A 321 can fit 20% more people which will be needed in 5 years, let alone the 25 years of service life.

They’ll need the biggest aircraft with a less than 36m wingspan they can get, which is the 321XLR.

[Makiko]

To the talkative chappy (whose name escapes me) who was forecasting doom & gloom at QF mainline with a stampede out the door
, no respect , not enough wonga , overworked , hotels not up to standard - normal stuff really

Sure a few might have resigned past couple of years to take up better " employ" (in their minds at least), but this would be single figures & likely
couldn't fill one hand

I have only known two (this century ) who resigned , one who had been with QF ten + years (FO WB) & went to Tiger - yes ,yes what was this chap thinking

Another LHS WB who decided it would be a good idea to resign & go to Dubai , Emirates

As you know it wasn't a happy ending

What joining date is WB FO up to these days ?, you saying mid 2017 ?

[aussieflyboy]

One thing Qantas Pilots are known for internationally is talking themselves up (and enjoying golf in the rain).

From a new-starter point of view if your coming from GA/Turbo regionals and want to see the world you’re better off at EK/SQ or one of many US Airlines. Qantas simply doesn’t fly anywhere overly interesting. You can see the world and come home with a house half paid off and grab a quick CMD at one of QFs subsidiary’s. You’ll end up with more money at retirement then if you went to QF as a SO and you’ll actually see the world.

[ShandywithSugar]

aussieflyboy (is that your insta name? asking for a friend) so on one thread you say Mainline don't hate the pilots at Network or NJS they hate the management but here you're saying go to EK SQ then come back and join one of them? and continue to help feed the screw over of conditions here! R U Ok?

Plus you forgot if you're coming from GA/Turbo regionals - you can't go to EK or SQ (as FO). I've listed each below to save you the time.

EK: minimum of 2000 hours on Airbus FBW or modern Boeing type

SQ:Minimum of 1500 total multi-crew flying hours on commercial jet aircraft

​​​​​​​Qantas simply doesn’t fly anywhere overly interesting Where do you fly?.

[Makiko]

SIA pay less than QF rates - probably on par with JQ (after tax considered)
Maybe $12 K a month , sure not much tax but you can get $275K on your second day at QF by just
saying yes to 737
Yes we know about the bonus , but that was first one of that size since 2000s & remember what they did during Covid
EK & CX are neck & neck , each to their own
Oh for the 1980s/90s , generous housing allowance, all educations , all utilities
They don't exist anymore
Goodluck to those who got it (or got the remnants of it )
Just how good was the CX deal in the 80s (I'm sure I can remember seeing a print advert stating North of $1M HKD then for LHS)
Salary just miles in front of Aust, expensive HK property paid off during your tenure, Geelong College boarding fees all paid
All but a memory

[43Inches]

Maybe $12 K a month , sure not much tax but you can get $275K on your second day at QF by just
saying yes to 737

Where is the line to say yes to a 737 job for $275K paid out on my second day, I'm in!!

There must be a few current QF 737 drivers looking for that $275k right now, where'd it go, hmm, damn it Alan must have stolen it if I didn't say yes loud enough.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Talk about wankers

[A320 Flyer]

Where is the line to say yes to a 737 job for $275K paid out on my second day, I'm in!!

There must be a few current QF 737 drivers looking for that $275k right now, where'd it go, hmm, damn it Alan must have stolen it if I didn't say yes loud enough.

Year 4 on the 737 you can but you’re working a bit. Certainly nowhere near 1000 a year if you know how to make the agreement work but 275 is possible.

[Makiko]

Its easy to find for those who cannot

Just open the Contract & read the part where it says FO Base $160K for 53.5 hours 28 days (part A)

Then you do some OT(part B) , you will have to work pretty hard for this brass & allowances (part C)

& you have A + B + C = $275K

" i'm in" well it isn't as easy as that if you are an external applicant

Over past 15 years there have been 3 two week windows where applications have been open to externals

You will have to compete against 2000 other people , 25% will get a test , maybe 10% will get a job

You might find it an easier pathway to join group airline & transfer under their now annual mainline program - exclusive to Group Pilots

So clearly there isn't a charge out the door at ML to SIA to halve your income, and it exceeds to joys of ACMI flying at Atlas

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Its easy to find for those who cannot

Just open the Contract & read the part where it says FO Base $160K for 53.5 hours 28 days (part A)

Then you do some OT(part B) , you will have to work pretty hard for this brass & allowances (part C)

& you have A + B + C = $275K



Sure. But you’d need to be flying about 85 hrs/roster for the entire year, when FO divisors are currently in the mid 60s. And even if it was possible, would you really want to?

[dr dre]

Sure. But you’d need to be flying about 85 hrs/roster for the entire year, when FO divisors are currently in the mid 60s. And even if it was possible, would you really want to?

Fairly easy to pick up extra work if you want.

But on regular hours almost all F/Os, regardless on Yr 1 or 4, will make $200k+ this year, and most I’d say around $230-240k.

[CaptCloudbuster]

You can see the world and come home with a house half paid off and grab a quick CMD at one of QFs subsidiary’s. You’ll end up with more money at retirement then if you went to QF as a SO and you’ll actually see the world.

See the World at EK or actually just the inside of a generic airport hotel on you min slip turnaround?

[havick]

See the World at EK or actually just the inside of a generic airport hotel on you min slip turnaround?

If you really want to see the world, corporate (large cabin) is where it’s at. The money and lifestyle is pretty good too.

[dr dre]

If you really want to see the world, corporate (large cabin) is where it’s at. The money and lifestyle is pretty good too.

Horses for courses. I’ve had corporate pilots complain you’re at the beck and call of an executive, can spend lots of time away from home, be called out to fly on a whim, have schedules changed at the last minute making forward planning impossible. Some of the Execs they work for and are in close contact with are also the most horrible people you could ever imagine.

[SandyPalms]

You may be right dre, but havick is specifically talking about seeing the world. Not the quality of the job.

QF’s network is great. Except in Europe, but they do seem to be trying to improve that in the future. Fingers crossed.

I’ll leave Uganda and Burkina Faso to the Emirates folks. Not really my cup of tea.

[havick]

Horses for courses. I’ve had corporate pilots complain you’re at the beck and call of an executive, can spend lots of time away from home, be called out to fly on a whim, have schedules changed at the last minute making forward planning impossible. Some of the Execs they work for and are in close contact with are also the most horrible people you could ever imagine.

Depends on the flight department. There’s quite a few gems out there that have more than enough pilots to schedule and not be on call.

[Icarus2001]

QF’s network is great. Except in Europe, Tell me about all the Asian ports...

[43Inches]

Its easy to find for those who cannot

Just open the Contract & read the part where it says FO Base $160K for 53.5 hours 28 days (part A)

Then you do some OT(part B) , you will have to work pretty hard for this brass & allowances (part C)

& you have A + B + C = $275K

" i'm in" well it isn't as easy as that if you are an external applicant

Over past 15 years there have been 3 two week windows where applications have been open to externals

You will have to compete against 2000 other people , 25% will get a test , maybe 10% will get a job

You might find it an easier pathway to join group airline & transfer under their now annual mainline program - exclusive to Group Pilots

So clearly there isn't a charge out the door at ML to SIA to halve your income, and it exceeds to joys of ACMI flying at Atlas

But including OT is an unfair comparison, I know SAAB captains at Rex that will nudge $250k this year. Would you rather fly a SAAB than work for SIA/EK? It's not all about cash as well. Also your point was that you would be on that coin on day 2 of working for QF, so would have to be direct entry for that to happen and onto a 737 and immediately earning $275k is unlikely. And to counter any talk about carreer progression on the SAAB, how long before you can get a wide body command at QF compare to the likes of EK, which is where the real money flows.

Tell me about all the Asian ports...

Yes, apart from having significant flight schedules to Europe, Asia, Africa, North America and South America they have a fantastic network to all destinations.

[dr dre]

I mean it’s all up to personal preference. But when mainline open up recruitment they get thousands of applicants. They have enough on the hold file to fill courses for a year (what other Aussie carrier can say that) and when they reopen applications again sometime in the next 12 months for only a few weeks they’ll get a few thousand more applications, that’ll stock the coffers for the next 3-4 years in the future.

Most Australians want to live in Australia, and mainline has the best T&Cs and overall career prospects of anyone based here. With the only exception being a quick command, you’ll have to go elsewhere for that.

[43Inches]

I mean it’s all up to personal preference. But when mainline open up recruitment they get thousands of applicants. They have enough on the hold file to fill courses for a year (what other Aussie carrier can say that) and when they reopen applications again sometime in the next 12 months for only a few weeks they’ll get a few thousand more applications, that’ll stock the coffers for the next 3-4 years in the future.

Most Australians want to live in Australia, and mainline has the best T&Cs and overall career prospects of anyone based here. With the only exception being a quick command, you’ll have to go elsewhere for that.

I agree to a point, conditions are being eroded regularly at Mainline QF though, so who knows where you will stand in 10 years, especially when it takes so long to move through the ranks. Already Rex has overtaken QLink dash 8 pay so offers better pay and conditions than the equivalent QF sub. How long will mainline be the top conditions into the future. Granted Rex management keep kicking own goals in staff treatment, but QLink does much the same so who knows where either will be in a few years given the pilot drain. VA and Rex 737 operations might pull a rabbit out of the hat and suddenly start competing for workforce. So its very much in a state of flux at the moment wrt to pay and conditions in the industry.

[Makiko]

Why is including OT " unfair" , OT is scheduled & more available

The minimum of 53.5 hours per 28 days or month (can't remember) is likely the lowest in the world

Nobody saying the large OS carriers wouldn't be fun & an experience

But they have all changed a lot the ME3 don't count bunk time as "stick time" so you fly 50% more than BA, AF , Luftansa etc

SIA well you might get "best practise" rosters the expat allowances have gone

I would be telling your SAAB friend to join the QF group(or Virgin,Alliance) get some jet time , unlikely to be competitive for Sing/ME

43 could you detail specifically where the conditions at ML have been eroded ( Yes understand there is now a B Scale for Airbus SOs - but that was voted in by the QF pilots ) . Aside from that I doubt you could detail anything

[43Inches]

Why is including OT " unfair" , OT is scheduled & more available

The minimum of 53.5 hours per 28 days or month (can't remember) is likely the lowest in the world

Nobody saying the large OS carriers wouldn't be fun & an experience

But they have all changed a lot the ME3 don't count bunk time as "stick time" so you fly 50% more than BA, AF , Luftansa etc

SIA well you might get "best practise" rosters the expat allowances have gone

I would be telling your SAAB friend to join the QF group(or Virgin,Alliance) get some jet time , unlikely to be competitive for Sing/ME

43 could you detail specifically where the conditions at ML have been eroded ( Yes understand there is now a B Scale for Airbus SOs - but that was voted in by the QF pilots ) . Aside from that I doubt you could detail anything

Mid east carriers have taken direct from the SAAB in the past, if they are desperate enough, the jet time requirement turns into turbine time and so on. In any case I think most Rex pilots have a resume in somewhere or are waiting on start dates. I was using that as an indication that you can make close to that income flying a 30 seat turboprop, so comparing someone flying a 180+ seat jet is only earning $25k more. Those chasing quick cash all jumped at Atlas anyway and the US conditions on offer atm. There's a good chunk of ex-rex pilots representing in every airline in Australia.

I seem to remember some pay freezes and such going on at ML for a number of years, would that not be an erosion of conditions to begin with, and if you are not achieving at least CPI on your yearly increments you are losing ground.

[Makiko]

You would be entirely incorrect 43

The latest SH & LH EBAs , late 2019 & early 2020 , bought with them healthy annual pay raises & all sorts
of improvements to T & Cs . Juicy pay rates for the A350

As did the SH/LH EBAs 3 / 4 years before

And the SH/LH EBAs again 3/4 years before that

There has never been a pay freeze in ML

Can you please outline where specifically TCs have been eroded ?

[Icarus2001]

Mid east carriers have taken direct from the SAAB in the past, if they are desperate enough, the jet time requirement turns into turbine time and so on.

I can remember when Emirates wanted jet time > 50 tonnes MTOW, then it became 2000 jet, then turbprop time, then a warm body and a pulse.

They are fickle when they can be, at present they want CURRENT Airbus and Boeing pilots. Next month, who knows.

[43Inches]

Depends how you look at worth, year 1 in 2011 was $109k inflation makes that worth $151k in Australia today, but current base is $145k. For a year 4 $119k in 2011 is worth $162k today, current EBA is $157k. That's an erosion, as it has not kept pace with inflation.

I've been in the game long enough to see the swings and roundabouts at work. The gap between QF and the others has definitely waned over the past 30 years. You only get OT when OT is available, plenty right now, what happens when the music stops and your chair is fixed.

[SandyPalms]

Tell me about all the Asian ports...


what do you want to know about them?

I presume you’re suggesting that there isn’t many, and that may be true, but QF flys to:
Indonesia (2 destinations)
Singapore
Thailand
India (2 destinations)
Philippines
China HK
China (not yet, but it’s in the schedule)
Japan
South Korea
United Kingdom
Italy
USA (5 different destinations)
Canada
Chile
New Zealand
Tonga, Samoa, PNG, New Caledonia and Fiji (but no one overnights there)
South Africa
and they have stated their desire to add France.
And of course, all over Australia

It may only be 1 destination in most of them, but how many cities in a any country do you need in order to experience a country?
I think that’s pretty good, and I can live in Australia to do it. If you’d rather go elsewhere, go elsewhere.

The biggest problem is the different fleets, so no one goes to all of them, but the A330/350 fleet (if it’s approved by CASA) would touch most of them.



Not a bad spread if you ask me.

[RealSatoshi]

...if you are not achieving at least CPI on your yearly increments you are losing ground.
That there is the MOST important part of the EBA puzzle missing in Australian aviation.

CPI to CPI increases from EBA to EBA simply means you are holding your own against a predetermined basket of goods - albeit not really, as those goods are usually ones catering more for the working class than the professional class. This means that even on CPI to CPI increases from EBA to EBA your pilot lifestyle will be going backwards.

If the unions got it right, EBA's would be CPI (guaranteed) increases year-on-year - not up for negotiation - with the CPI(+) portion negotiated in response to productivity improvements, EIS of new types and/or market forces.

It is not Rocket Science people...or is it...? :ugh:

[Lapon]

You would be entirely incorrect 43

Can you please outline where specifically TCs have been eroded ?

Did the 737 crews give any concessions for the privilege of flying the 20 a321xlr's?
I don't work there so I don't know, but there wasn't alot of talk about the variations being much of a win?

[smiling monkey]

Did the 737 crews give any concessions for the privilege of flying the 20 a321xlr's?
I don't work there so I don't know, but there wasn't alot of talk about the variations being much of a win?
In the Jetstar thread, it was mentioned that Jetstar were going to operate at least 20 A321 XLRs. Are these 20 you refer to in addition to the Jetstar XLRs?

[smiling monkey]

what do you want to know about them?

I presume you’re suggesting that there isn’t many, and that may be true, but QF flys to:
Indonesia (2 destinations)
Singapore
Thailand
India (2 destinations)
Philippines
China HK
China (not yet, but it’s in the schedule)
Japan
South Korea
United Kingdom
Italy
USA (5 different destinations)
Canada
Chile
New Zealand
Tonga, Samoa, PNG, New Caledonia and Fiji (but no one overnights there)
South Africa
and they have stated their desire to add France.
And of course, all over Australia

It may only be 1 destination in most of them, but how many cities in a any country do you need in order to experience a country?
I think that’s pretty good, and I can live in Australia to do it. If you’d rather go elsewhere, go elsewhere.

The biggest problem is the different fleets, so no one goes to all of them, but the A330/350 fleet (if it’s approved by CASA) would touch most of them.



Not a bad spread if you ask me.

Interesting that QF has not operated to Kuala Lumpur for a very long time, yet Malaysia Airlines, Air Asia X and Malindo (Batik) have many flights a week from all the Australian capital cities. Could we see KUL back on the Qantas Group radar soon when the A321 XLRs arrive?

[ScepticalOptomist]

There has never been a pay freeze in ML

Can you please outline where specifically TCs have been eroded ?

Makiko - you obviously don’t work at QF. We have certainly taken pay freezes in mainline.

Stop with your rubbish. It’s ill informed or worse, intentional BS.

[Lapon]

In the Jetstar thread, it was mentioned that Jetstar were going to operate at least 20 A321 XLRs. Are these 20 you refer to in addition to the Jetstar XLRs?

Additional. As in the Winton xlrs.

[Makiko]

Well please tell me

When did these pay freezes occur ?

What EBA numbers were they

[captainhan]

So does anyone know if QF will actually be recruiting direct entry S/O positions from outside anytime in 2023 or 2024?​​​

[dragon man]

Well please tell me

When did these pay freezes occur ?

What EBA numbers were they
Qantas pilots back pay freeze dealPilots agree to 18-mth wage freeze, bringing airline closer to buying Boeing fleet.
AAPless than 2 min read
July 30, 2015 - 5:45PM Qantas pilots back pay freeze deal

Qantas long-haul pilots have backed plans for an 18-month pay freeze, putting the airline a step closer to expanding its fleet of hi-tech Dreamliner planes.

The pay freeze was part of a new wages deal which was backed by 82 per cent of 1,165 pilots who voted in an electronic ballot that closed on Thursday.

The deal includes annual three per cent pay increases once the pay freeze lifts



Terry Cook (https://www.wsws.org/en/authors/Terry-Cook)
8 November 2001









Qantas, Australia’s largest airline, is moving to capitalise on the continuing crisis in the airline industry and the effective demise of its domestic rival, Ansett. The company is launching an aggressive cost-cutting program to maintain its increased share of the domestic market—over 80 percent following the Ansett collapse—and to gain a competitive edge in the international arena.

The program involves slashing labour costs through a wage freeze, the restructuring of work practices and the shedding of an unspecified number of jobs from its workforce of 33,000. In order to contain the opposition of workers, management is openly relying on the trade unions.

On October 22, 150 officials and delegates representing 11 airline unions were wined and dined by Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon at the plush Sydney Darling Harbour waterfront Novotel Hotel. By all reports, it was a sumptuous lunch. Dixon informed the gathering that Qantas wanted agreement on an 18-month pay freeze and the abolition of a range of rostering and special allowances.

[layman]

smiling monkey

Qantas & Kuala Lumpur

Others will know if this is true or not ...

I was told a story many years ago by a pilot out of Singapore, that KL ATC had cleared a Qantas aircraft to land on a reciprocal heading to an aircraft cleared for take-off.

This was supposedly one of a number of issues Qantas had encountered.

Qantas supposedly withdrew from KL not long after.

[Makiko]

Interesting KL yarn above

Because a journalist writes a story about a pay freeze , that does not mean that a pay freeze occured

First one; obviously talking LH not SH, when did this " alleged 18 month pay freeze" actually occur , was it actually implemented. On EBA 8 or 9 , what time
period ? That the previously agreed (& it is ratified by FWC) , not "law" but is approved/stamped by Commission. That these previously binding annual pay rises & written into EBAs did not
actually occur . Interesting - I would need a lot more convincing - than a few lines from a journo

Same for Dixon days , journo writing about talky feast meeting doesn't mean the event occurred

Wakey wakey mate
r

[dr dre]

Interesting KL yarn above
Because a journalist writes a story about a pay freeze , that does not mean that a pay freeze occured


The other thing with the 787 deal is, all up, it's incredibly popular. Slots on that aircraft go far more senior than the 330 operated under the "legacy" LH T&Cs.

[dr dre]

So does anyone know if QF will actually be recruiting direct entry S/O positions from outside anytime in 2023 or 2024?​​​

Apparently enough on the hold file to fill courses for at least 12 months or so. Wouldn't expect another round of applications to open until at least late this year or early next year.

[ShandywithSugar]

The other thing with the 787 deal is, all up, it's incredibly popular. Slots on that aircraft go far more senior than the 330 operated under the "legacy" LH T&Cs.

Rotating roster will do that!

[dragon man]

[QUOTE=Makiko;11456486]Interesting KL yarn above

Because a journalist writes a story about a pay freeze , that does not mean that a pay freeze occured

First one; obviously talking LH not SH, when did this " alleged 18 month pay freeze" actually occur , was it actually implemented. On EBA 8 or 9 , what time
period ? That the previously agreed (& it is ratified by FWC) , not "law" but is approved/stamped by Commission. That these previously binding annual pay rises & written into EBAs did not
actually occur . Interesting - I would need a lot more convincing - than a few lines from a journo

Same for Dixon days , journo writing about talky feast meeting doesn't mean the event occurred

Wakey wakey mate
r

You are living proof that you don’t need a long neck and feathers to be a goose. I was there they are real they happened the total was about 10% allowing for compounding.

[Check_Thrust]

Because a journalist writes a story about a pay freeze , that does not mean that a pay freeze occured

First one; obviously talking LH not SH, when did this " alleged 18 month pay freeze" actually occur , was it actually implemented. On EBA 8 or 9 , what time
period ? That the previously agreed (& it is ratified by FWC) , not "law" but is approved/stamped by Commission. That these previously binding annual pay rises & written into EBAs did not
actually occur . Interesting - I would need a lot more convincing - than a few lines from a journo

I don't have a dog in this fight but having a quick glance at LH EBA 9 (2015) the payscales for the A380, B747, A330 & B767 state:
- 1st January 2014
- 1st July 2016
- 1st July 2017
- 1st July 2018

With a 2 year 6 month gap between the first two pay rates I'd say that would be an 18 month pay freeze.

As it does not affect me I haven't delved into the finer details of the agreement so maybe I'm overlooking something that would negate my above statement.

[skrtel]

When will Mainline offer a Tamworth base?

[DashTrash.]

Umm never….

[dragon man]

Aviation (https://archive.md/o/JlqRI/https://www.afr.com/topic/aviation-5ut)

Print articlePilots say Qantas should pay to bypass themAyesha de Kretser (https://archive.md/o/JlqRI/https://www.afr.com/by/ayesha-de-kretser-p535y1)Senior reporterJul 11, 2023 – 6.00pm
Save

ShareThe Australian International Pilots Association has told the Federal Court that Qantas should have to pay its pilots if it bypasses them to hire from outside the company to fly its biggest planes, saying the pilots “reasonably” considered the airline’s request before declining it.
In May, Qantas took its case to the Federal Court after failing to reach agreement with AIPA in the Fair Work Commission (https://archive.md/o/JlqRI/https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/qantas-ruling-blocks-restructures-to-avoid-bargaining-business-20230526-p5dblt) over a request to hire 20 new pilots to train as second officers on its A380s, which fly long-haul international routes. https://archive.md/JlqRI/95e54a07589ff493ab7a24dea92d46f60f0ef779.webp Qantas has taken its pilots to court saying they acted unreasonably in withholding agreement. Steven Siewert Under the enterprise agreement, Qantas pilots sought to be promoted to the bigger aircraft from smaller Boeing 737s, A330s, and A350s and to enter a queue, from which they should be selected. But the agreement says Qantas can ask to directly allocate pilots and this “should not be unreasonably withheld” if requested for operational reasons.
Qantas asked AIPA for permission to allocate externally hired pilots directly to the A380s, saying its training pipeline was broken because of COVID-19 and because of the significant impact of “restarting an airline from a global pandemic”.
In court on Tuesday, barrister Matthew Follett said: “COVID had a dramatic effect on the operations of Qantas, in particular the international operations and effectively through the best part of two years there were almost no international flights.
“Regular passenger transport function was largely, if not entirely, not being performed. The consequence of that was very large numbers of the international pilots were stood down, without pay, for considerable periods of time.
“When would it ever be unreasonable if not now? In what possible scenario?”
But Ian Neil SC said AIPA would argue over the coming days that Qantas had contributed to its own operational issues.
“Put bluntly, AIPA was not persuaded that the bypassed pilots should pay to resolve such operational problems as Qantas may have had, rather than Qantas – or bear the cost,” Mr Neil told the court.
The association also wants the airline to compensate pilots under the “bypass” provision in its enterprise agreement.
The provision says Qantas can hire externally if it pays the pilots it skips over the wages they would have earned if they had been promoted for a period of up to two years. At the end of the two years, they would have to be upskilled and retrained as second officers on the larger aircraft.
Mr Neil said that if Qantas chose to invoke its right to hire directly, the pilots would not receive certain economic benefits, and that “by withholding agreement [to Qantas’ request to allocate external pilots], AIPA was not seeking to extract a benefit to which the pilots were not entitled or something extraneous to the nature and subject matter of the enterprise agreement”.
A Qantas spokeswoman said the airline had a record amount of training under way as it hired and brought back pilots from COVID. “Given the training constraints, we want to train 20 new recruits on the A380 as second officers, which means we don’t need to retrain a further 20 pilots on a new aircraft type,” she said.
“We have a record amount of training under way as we bring more pilots back after COVID, hire hundreds of new pilots and promote existing pilots to more senior positions.


Self inflicted from both side I would say.

[RealSatoshi]

“should not be unreasonably withheld”
Putting undefined and non-quantifiable statements in an EBA is the problem here...when will the unions learn :oh:

[DashTrash.]

Yes the EBA has the statement “agreement should not be unreasonably withheld”

however Qantas wants to ignore the provisions in the EBA that says any bypassed pilot should be compensated for being bypassed.

Qantas’ main argument for doing this is they have operational and training constraints. However they don’t say currently 787 pilots are being forced onto leave due to a surplus. They don’t say the backlog for training onto the a380 is 6+months. They don’t say they have a financial motive for their decision as these new SOs are on the Bscale conditions. And will only achieve 60% of the salary of their colleagues.

IMO this whole argument can now be shut down by the new same job same pay laws. Why should 2 SO with the same experience be paid vastly different rates.

[dragon man]

Putting undefined and non-quantifiable statements in an EBA is the problem here...when will the unions learn :oh:


If history is any guide never.

[Makiko]

Looks like the AIPA SC is struggling

The other guys cuts through it with his line “When would it ever be unreasonable if not now? In what possible scenario?"

Likely AIPA will be down circa $500K if they lose this - was it a wise decision to proceed ?

I can't remember AIPA ever winning a contested litigation

Interesting decided to spend the big brass to get A Scale SOs more money

Surely the introduction of B Scale years before the actual A350 arrives would have been the one to litigate

Perhaps those who voted in EBA 10 don't want to front this little issue - bit like QF not ordering 777s - don't mention the war

(dashT - you aren't being bypassed, the A380 are initial hires)

[DashTrash.]

Looks like the AIPA SC is struggling

The other guys cuts through it with his line “When would it ever be unreasonable if not now? In what possible scenario?"

Likely AIPA will be down circa $500K if they lose this - was it a wise decision to proceed ?

I can't remember AIPA ever winning a contested litigation

Interesting decided to spend the big brass to get A Scale SOs more money

Surely the introduction of B Scale years before the actual A350 arrives would have been the one to litigate

Perhaps those who voted in EBA 10 don't want to front this little issue - bit like QF not ordering 777s - don't mention the war

(dashT - you aren't being bypassed, the A380 are initial hires)

Makiko mate you need to look up bypass! take it from someone who actually works there, you are being bypassed. You are being denied an opportunity in a seniority system for a more junior employee.

DT

[morno]

(dashT - you aren't being bypassed, the A380 are initial hires)

Then why was there a list just published with the initial tranch of bypassee’s?

[Makiko]

Well DT I think you will find QF will say that bypass is when a more junior employee is advanced in front of
more senior & that it doesn't apply in this case because it is an initial appointment for someone who is not currently employed by QF

[morno]

Well DT I think you will find QF will say that bypass is when a more junior employee is advanced in front of
more senior & that it doesn't apply in this case because it is an initial appointment for someone who is not currently employed by QF

Yeah, literally read my comment above yours dopey

[DashTrash.]

Makiko you are splitting hairs here, it’s the same concept mate.

If AIPA don’t make a stand now, then when? What happens in a few years if QF say they can’t release any pilots for an FO or CAPT slot and want to hire externally.

you can bet your ass the entire pilot cohort is 100% against this. I can also guarantee that if there was no Bscale, QF would not be pursuing this agenda.

also a lot of guys are blaming the union for this, don’t forget EBA10 was put directly to the pilot group during Covid and we voted it up against AIPA advice.

DT

[dragon man]

I must have missed that bit I don’t remember AIPA telling us not to vote it up in fact two pilots took it to FWA to stop the vote and AIPA were no where to be seen.

[Beer Baron]

Looks like the AIPA SC is struggling

The other guys cuts through it with his line “When would it ever be unreasonable if not now? In what possible scenario?"
You misunderstand the core of the dispute. AIPA didn’t refuse to allow Qantas to direct hire to the A380, they simply insisted that the EA provisions around Bypass be applied as per the LHEA.

As such, the matter is not about whether Qantas have the capacity to train, it is about will they pay the negatively affected pilots. The new hires are training right now, not in 2020 or 2021. Qantas is set to announce a 2 Billion dollar profit for the last FY. So explain to me how Qantas can’t afford to follow the EA due to COVID?

[Makiko]

You might be right , but it also looks like the journalist & barrister also don't understand

I guess we will have to wait & look at the Judgement when it comes through

I am sure the J will spell out the issues very clearly

[dragon man]

You misunderstand the core of the dispute. AIPA didn’t refuse to allow Qantas to direct hire to the A380, they simply insisted that the EA provisions around Bypass be applied as per the LHEA.

As such, the matter is not about whether Qantas have the capacity to train, it is about will they pay the negatively affected pilots. The new hires are training right now, not in 2020 or 2021. Qantas is set to announce a 2 Billion dollar profit for the last FY. So explain to me how Qantas can’t afford to follow the EA due to COVID?


ARROGANCE. They have had it all their way for to long.

[Beer Baron]

You might be right , but it also looks like the journalist & barrister also don't understand
You are half right, the journalist clearly does not understand the issue. Look at this excerpt;
Under the enterprise agreement, Qantas pilots sought to be promoted to the bigger aircraft from smaller Boeing 737s, A330s, and A350s and to enter a queue, from which they should be selected.
We don’t have A350’s and there are no Second Officers on the 737, so no one from that fleet is eligible for these contested vacancies. So two thirds of that assertion is garbage.

As for the Qantas appointed barrister, it their job to twist the facts to suit their argument. It is for the discerning audience to distinguish truth from spin.

[Makiko]

Seems like you might be incorrect Beer Baron

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/transcripts/20230417_c20231391.pdf

See PN22 from AIPAs guy "whether the association was deemed to be reasonably or unreasonably withholding agreement"

I don't think you would be a very smart SC if you attempted to manipulate or twist facts in front of a Fed Court Judge

As a dumbo I would think they would onto you in a microsecond

Out of this one for me - you chaps just know everything about everything

[morno]

You might be right , but it also looks like the journalist & barrister also don't understand

I guess we will have to wait & look at the Judgement when it comes through

I am sure the J will spell out the issues very clearly

For someone who has so far been proven wrong on pretty well every assertion they’ve made about the longhaul EBA, I wouldn’t hold too much weight on what you say either buddy.

[Makiko]

Thanks for your support Morno
It means a lot to me Mate

[dragon man]

From the Australian

National Australia Bank employees earning up to $100,000 annually will be offered pay rises totalling 17.5 per cent over four years under a wage deal that locks in working from home rights for thousands of workers.

Qantas staff to get 9% over 5 years while they are gouging the public on fares and making record profits. I don’t know how the board and senior management look at themselves in the mirror.

[Bedwings]

Hi All
How long do I have to do Qantas online assessment before link expire?

[Makiko]

Never let the facts get in the way of reality
Domestic CC were offered 3% plus bonus plus shares (worth about $12K) in March
Your only 40% out on the pay rise offered
If you don't like QF , just leave
Isn't this thread meant to be about recruitment

Where did all these whingers & moaners come from such an unmanly way to carry on

"But Ian Neil SC said AIPA would argue over the coming days that Qantas had contributed to its own operational issues"

Well unless QF management were Nostradamus & knew exactly how pandemic was going to unfold sure they would have made a ton of mistakes
, just like every other airline in the world

If this the best AIPA have this case is a looser , looking at nudging $1 M loss here (inclusive of costs order)

[SandyPalms]

Genuine question here, but are you a Flight Attendant Makiko? That might explain why you’re always a way off when it’s comes to your knowledge of the contract.

[aseriesofleftturns]

Never let the facts get in the way of reality
Domestic CC were offered 3% plus bonus plus shares (worth about $12K) in March
Your only 40% out on the pay rise offered
If you don't like QF , just leave
Isn't this thread meant to be about recruitment

Where did all these whingers & moaners come from such an unmanly way to carry on

"But Ian Neil SC said AIPA would argue over the coming days that Qantas had contributed to its own operational issues"

Well unless QF management were Nostradamus & knew exactly how pandemic was going to unfold sure they would have made a ton of mistakes
, just like every other airline in the world

If this the best AIPA have this case is a looser , looking at nudging $1 M loss here (inclusive of costs order)

Loser*

[Colonel_Klink]

From the Australian

National Australia Bank employees earning up to $100,000 annually will be offered pay rises totalling 17.5 per cent over four years under a wage deal that locks in working from home rights for thousands of workers.

Qantas staff to get 9% over 5 years while they are gouging the public on fares and making record profits. I don’t know how the board and senior management look at themselves in the mirror.

Probably fair to say the same thing about the banks in Australia gouging the public too!

And as for their senior management….

[ddrwk]

I don't think you would be a very smart SC if you attempted to manipulate or twist facts in front of a Fed Court Judge


You also wouldn’t be a very smart individual to be discussing a Federal Court matter and then provide a link to a FWA transcript to try and prove your point.

It’s an entirely different jurisdiction in a somewhat related matter with different advocates.

Yes, dumbo would be an appropriate description.

[Beer Baron]

"But Ian Neil SC said AIPA would argue over the coming days that Qantas had contributed to its own operational issues"

Well unless QF management were Nostradamus & knew exactly how pandemic was going to unfold sure they would have made a ton of mistakes

Qantas made operational decisions in order to save themselves millions of dollars. (ie. standing down staff, forcing crew to take LWOP, reducing numbers, etc.)
These decisions are now causing a massive training burden.
To ease this burden Qantas want to ignore the provisions of the EA.
Now the question is, is it reasonable for Second Officers who were stood down for nearly 2 years to cop a $100,000 p/a hit to their pay as a result of Qantas’s cost reduction decisions, OR, is it reasonable that Qantas follow the EA and be made to foot the bill for their own decisions that saved them huge amounts of money.


With Qantas raking in multi-billion dollar profits, I hardly think it “reasonable” that S/O’s have to pay the price for the ramifications of Qantas’s cost cutting spree.

[ddrwk]

Qantas made operational decisions in order to save themselves millions of dollars. (ie. standing down staff, forcing crew to take LWOP, reducing numbers, etc.)
These decisions are now causing a massive training burden.
To ease this burden Qantas want to ignore the provisions of the EA.
Now the question is, is it reasonable for Second Officers who were stood down for nearly 2 years to cop a $100,000 p/a hit to their pay as a result of Qantas’s cost reduction decisions, OR, is it reasonable that Qantas follow the EA and be made to foot the bill for their own decisions that saved them huge amounts of money.



Yes but Makiko is suggesting that while the business has the RIGHT to make whatever decisions it feels it needs to at the time, there is no RESPONSIBILITY to live with the consequences of those decisions. Surely you can see that others must pay for any negative outcomes?

[dragon man]

Qantas made operational decisions in order to save themselves millions of dollars. (ie. standing down staff, forcing crew to take LWOP, reducing numbers, etc.)
These decisions are now causing a massive training burden.
To ease this burden Qantas want to ignore the provisions of the EA.
Now the question is, is it reasonable for Second Officers who were stood down for nearly 2 years to cop a $100,000 p/a hit to their pay as a result of Qantas’s cost reduction decisions, OR, is it reasonable that Qantas follow the EA and be made to foot the bill for their own decisions that saved them huge amounts of money.



With Qantas taking in multi-billion dollar profits, I hardly think it “reasonable” that S/O’s have to pay the price for the ramifications of Qantas’s cuts cutting spree.


I think you should attend a next step course ( remember them) to retrain your appalling thoughts or you will be shipped to the gulag.

[KAPAC]

Cabin crew asked Dixon if her job was safe ? He said yes but you won’t like it !

[jetbhags]

Hi All
How long do I have to do Qantas online assessment before link expire?

Around 2 weeks from the date you had it sent. Also log into the portal it will have the date.

[SixDemonBag]

Looks like the plan is for quite a few to join the ranks in the next 5 years. Guess they have to crew the a220 somehow 🤪

[SixDemonBag]

The last time I heard a Qf chief pilot say we’ll be recruiting like crazy for the next 5 years was 2007. Those recruiting doors very abruptly slammed shut only 2 years later. History doesn’t repeat but it often rhymes…

sure does. They can’t plan a BP ahead, let alone a year.

[Ranger290]

Hey is there a Qantas pilot in here that can describe some pay differences or advantages to taking an FO position over SO position with qantas.

[Lapon]

Hey is there a Qantas pilot in here that can describe some pay differences or advantages to taking an FO position over SO position with qantas.

You're going to get at least a few people tell you how you'll make upto 300k a year on day one as a 737 FO, and it used to be that every SO was on at least 200k apparently.

I'm sure both are numerically possible, but hopefully someone breaks down what you can expect as a base and THEN add expected overtime/allowances/super etc rather than throwing around arbitary outlier numbers as seems to be the norm when discussing Qantas pay.

Unless I'm mistaken you can't go back to SO from FO either, so either chair is going to be yours for a very long time - consider the relevance of that to your situation.

[dejapoo]

You're going to get at least a few people tell you how you'll make upto 300k a year on day one as a 737 FO, and it used to be that every SO was on at least 200k apparently.

I'm sure both are numerically possible, but hopefully someone breaks down what you can expect as a base and THEN add expected overtime/allowances/super etc rather than throwing around arbitary outlier numbers as seems to be the norm when discussing Qantas pay.

Unless I'm mistaken you can't go back to SO from FO either, so either chair is going to be yours for a very long time - consider the relevance of that to your situation.

You can go back. Just once.

[dr dre]

You're going to get at least a few people tell you how you'll make upto 300k a year on day one as a 737 FO,

On 4th year rates and working maximum hours for a year - yes.

and it used to be that every SO was on at least 200k apparently.

Some senior 380 SOs could make close to $300k with a year of high overtime trips, but all new SOs are employed under the new T&Cs so would be in the $100ks for salary range.

I'm sure both are numerically possible, but hopefully someone breaks down what you can expect as a base and THEN add expected overtime/allowances/super etc rather than throwing around arbitary outlier numbers as seems to be the norm when discussing Qantas pay.

737 FO min guarantee - $150k, but rostered hours always come out higher, so one who doesn’t pick up any extra flying would get at least $200k plus allowances and the bonus, up to $300k for those who work to the max. I’d say the majority are around $230-240k pa. For new SOs now on all fleets low to mid $100ks plus allowances.

In all cases from now any new employee on taking a promotion from SO to FO on any fleet will result in a pay rise.

[Ranger290]

Thanks for the responses. Im
guessing the allowances for SO will
be much higher than FO but in any case it sounds as though starting as 73 FO is significantly better

[Lapon]

Thanks for the responses. Im
guessing the allowances for SO will
be much higher than FO but in any case it sounds as though starting as 73 FO is significantly better

It depends what you after.
Money? Then probably the 737 FO spot, but if its money you are after why are you even in Australia?

Despite the new pay rates I'd personally go SO and commute somewhere driveable outside the capitals, but we are all different.

[Freightdog87]

Some external who are on the hold file, have friends who waited 4 plus years to come off it.

Some are looking at 12 plus months on the hold file after being told would expect a start at the beginning of the year. It would be more a matter of trying to get start sooner rather then later on the 737 then playing the waiting game for a SO spot

[DirectAnywhere]

If you’re the recipient of an email inviting you to apply for DEFO on the 737, caveat emptor.

There’s a reason they’re 30-40 FOs short on the 737 next training year.

The overall package is worth more as a 737 FO but you work a lot harder for it. Expect 15 days work plus 3 days (unpaid) reserve in a 28 day roster at the bottom. That will include some pretty ****ty day trips for 3 hours or less, and multi day trips with back of the clock sectors for less than 3 hours a day.

Driving to work in Sydney is about to get a whole lot harder too, with the loss of car parking next to the domestic terminal adding at least 45 mins to your daily commute to and from if you’re on day trips in that base. ADL, PER and BNE are better. MEL is about 25-30 mins per day waiting for buses and getting to and from the terminal.

Alliance, NJS and Network have gutted large portions of the 737 operation so you’ll spend extended periods in ports like DRW getting paid 6 bucks an hour for it, while Alliance flies eJets all around you with QF call signs.

Rosters improve as you climb the PSN and you’ll get weekends off, and fewer days at work (as low as 8 or 9 in 28 at the top). That’s where you can pick up extra hours, or ignore the pleading messages from crewing, if you choose. At the top, you’ll likely get assigned some stuff though as there are relatively few pilots assignable due to inefficient rostering practices.

Delays where you don’t get paid, loss of flying if you get delayed, cancelled sectors (unpaid), unpaid reserve and general lack of support these days across the domestic operation all add to the frustration.

That said, it’s a great bunch of people to work with, the flying’s fun and there’s WiFi.

SOs get paid less, have little responsibility, don’t work as much and get more days off. Haven’t seen a SO roster for a while but senior LH pilots didn’t work much more than 21 or 22 days in 56 last time I did. Lots of LH trips have home transport - and that makes a huge difference to your lifestyle. Don’t underestimate it. That ability to walk off a jet and just get driven home is great.

Please, stop worrying about allowances. You’re paid allowances for a reason, and that’s to eat while you’re away. Unless you plan to be a hermit, expect to spend a significant portion of them. Considering them
as take home salary is pretty sad.

Horses for courses. Lots of SOs have joined the company with window seat time and are happy to sit in the back seat for a while with a seniority number locked in - and probably wait for the 321.

[On Guard]

If you’re the recipient of an email inviting you to apply for DEFO on the 737, caveat emptor.

There’s a reason they’re 30-40 FOs short on the 737 next training year.

The overall package is worth more as a 737 FO but you work a lot harder for it. Expect 15 days work plus 3 days (unpaid) reserve in a 28 day roster at the bottom. That will include some pretty ****ty day trips for 3 hours or less, and multi day trips with back of the clock sectors for less than 3 hours a day.

Driving to work in Sydney is about to get a whole lot harder too, with the loss of car parking next to the domestic terminal adding at least 45 mins to your daily commute to and from if you’re on day trips in that base. ADL, PER and BNE are better. MEL is about 25-30 mins per day waiting for buses and getting to and from the terminal.

Alliance, NJS and Network have gutted large portions of the 737 operation so you’ll spend extended periods in ports like DRW getting paid 6 bucks an hour for it, while Alliance flies eJets all around you with QF call signs.

Rosters improve as you climb the PSN and you’ll get weekends off, and fewer days at work (as low as 8 or 9 in 28 at the top). That’s where you can pick up extra hours, or ignore the pleading messages from crewing, if you choose. At the top, you’ll likely get assigned some stuff though as there are relatively few pilots assignable due to inefficient rostering practices.

Delays where you don’t get paid, loss of flying if you get delayed, cancelled sectors (unpaid), unpaid reserve and general lack of support these days across the domestic operation all add to the frustration.

That said, it’s a great bunch of people to work with, the flying’s fun and there’s WiFi.

SOs get paid less, have little responsibility, don’t work as much and get more days off. Haven’t seen a SO roster for a while but senior LH pilots didn’t work much more than 21 or 22 days in 56 last time I did. Lots of LH trips have home transport - and that makes a huge difference to your lifestyle. Don’t underestimate it. That ability to walk off a jet and just get driven home is great.

Horses for courses. Lots of SOs have joined the company with window seat time and are happy to sit in the back seat for a while with a seniority number locked in - and probably wait for the 321.

Do we know how many were prepared to go the DEFO route just closed? Did they get the numbers?

[aussieflyboy]

I know of a few Group Pilots who were offered start dates as SOs however due to Covid and extended times on the hold file were unable to afford the pay cut. They asked if they could have Direct Entry FO positions and were told this is not possible and therefore turned the Qantas position down.

Are they now offering DEFO positions? I imagine this would be quite the slap in the face to the above folk.

[On Guard]

I know of a few Group Pilots who were offered start dates as SOs however due to Covid and extended times on the hold file were unable to afford the pay cut. They asked if they could have Direct Entry FO positions and were told this is not possible and therefore turned the Qantas position down.

Are they now offering DEFO positions? I imagine this would be quite the slap in the face to the above folk.

Not officially DEFO but SO with a quick transition to FO, ie during induction. I believe this is not uncommon so your friends sadly may have been misinformed?

[Jetsbest]

Everyone is given a seniority number on the day they join mainline. The recent trend, & the current offer, will mean that some just won’t even start an SO endorsement of any kind; they’ll do induction & then move straight into a 737 endorsement.

It works for some…

[DirectAnywhere]

Everyone is given a seniority number on the day they join mainline. The recent trend, & the current offer, will mean that some just won’t even start an SO endorsement of any kind; they’ll do induction & then move straight into a 737 endorsement.

It works for some…

I’ve seen emails sent to applicants asking if they’re willing to accept 737 FO on day one. It’s not DEFO, but it absolutely, totally is.

If they were told they couldn’t have 737 FO on day one, they weren’t asking the right questions, especially given all the info that’s out there. 🤷‍♂️ You wouldn’t get it in all bases, but there were vacancies in a number of bases.

aussieflyboy if they were BNE dash captains expecting DEFO 737 in BNE, then they probably didn’t like the answer they got.

[Beer Baron]

The way the EA’s are structured means you have to start as an S/O. If you believe you may get in sooner by saying “Yes, I’d love to fly the 737” then I’d recommend saying it. Then on day 1 when they ask you to alter your Letter of Preference to bid for the 737, you can say “no thanks, my circumstances have changed, I’d like to remain an S/O”.
There is nothing Qantas can do about it. You can’t be forced across hauls onto a different EA.

So just do what you’ve gotta do to get in the door then decided what YOU want to do.

[aussieflyboy]

The way the EA’s are structured means you have to start as an S/O. If you believe you may get in sooner by saying “Yes, I’d love to fly the 737” then I’d recommend saying it. Then on day 1 when they ask you to alter your Letter of Preference to bid for the 737, you can say “no thanks, my circumstances have changed, I’d like to remain an S/O”.
There is nothing Qantas can do about it. You can’t be forced across hauls onto a different EA.

So just do what you’ve gotta do to get in the door then decided what YOU want to do.

I’ll admit I don’t know the full story but I believe they were told a 737 position may be available straight away or it may be 3 years. The HR person couldn’t confirm a 737 basing location. They refused to allow him to do a secondment to what was his current Group position until they could guarantee a 737 spot so he turned it down.

Last I heard from him he was living in Miami working with Atlas so bigger and better for him at least. The other gent I know has stayed as a skipper with another group jet operator and says he’ll earn more doing that then taking the pay cut to mainline.

This sort of thing wouldn’t have happened in the past but this is what a happens when you voted a B/C scale in. Mainline simply isn’t the job it used to be.

[ShandywithSugar]

I’ll admit I don’t know the full story but I believe they were told a 737 position may be available straight away or it may be 3 years. The HR person couldn’t confirm a 737 basing location. They refused to allow him to do a secondment to what was his current Group position until they could guarantee a 737 spot so he turned it down.

Last I heard from him he was living in Miami working with Atlas so bigger and better for him at least. The other gent I know has stayed as a skipper with another group jet operator and says he’ll earn more doing that then taking the pay cut to mainline.

This sort of thing wouldn’t have happened in the past but this is what a happens when you voted a B/C scale in. Mainline simply isn’t the job it used to be.

Everyone knows for over a year now you can go direct to the B737. You just have to start on Day 1 as an SO (oh the trauma) then across you go. By the end of the day. If they're that worried about the 'B' scale ( they might have got A380?) then going direct to the B737 wasn't going to be the money train they were probably thinking either.

Eitherway , more off the hold making the position stronger!.

[Fridayflyer]

Ifgreat.

Please, stop worrying about allowances. You’re paid allowances for a reason, and that’s to eat while you’re away. Unless you plan to be a hermit, expect to spend a significant portion of them. Considering them
as take home salary is pretty sad.

21.
Couldn’t agree more. Any pilot considering / counting allowance as part of pay is a bit of a loser. It’s money that’s there to be spent on a layover . if your going to fly to the otherside of the world sit in your room as some do and eat your wife’s packed lunch then what’s the point of putting your body through the jet lag and stress

[Beer Baron]

People can include allowances in their consideration or not, I don’t care, however to suggest they are solely to be spent in port is a bit misleading. Under the new allowance system in QF LH you earn the allowance as soon as you sign on at your home base, until you return days later. So a 24 hour slip, SIN return will earn you close to $800 AUD tax free. You can have plenty of beers and ‘nuclear chicken’ and you won’t spend half of that.
I wouldn’t base my career plans around it but it’s a nice earner and can’t be ignored.

[Jc31]

You gotta spend money to eat while you’re at home as well. Money in your pocket is money in your pocket.

[aussieflyboy]

You gotta spend money to eat while you’re at home as well. Money in your pocket is money in your pocket.

You eat out every meal do you?

[Jc31]

You eat out every meal do you?

I buy food at the supermarket to make meals at home. Food doesn’t manifest itself into my kitchen table. It’s still a cost I have to take into consideration.