Qantas Recruitment

[Tankengine]

This is why they make you complete all parts of the testing prior to the Board. It’s the oldest trick in the H.R. book - If the medical turns up something that they believe will cost them money and/or your productivity in a decade, they are able to legally reject you. The candidate will never know that they were rejected for medical reasons, since it can be argued that there was some other fiendish flaw found in the totality of the information in your application (interview, simulator, or the cut of your jib).

If a job offer is extended pending the results of your medical, and you hold the required CASA Class 1; it is illegal to reject you on medical grounds. American Airlines used to have a medical prior to employment. They were informed that it was illegal, and quietly dropped that portion of the assessment.


The above statement is correct for Qantas over thirty years ago so probably still the case.
I was initially knocked back with no explanation in 1995, they changed eyesight standard (previously the same as RAAF apparently, no glasses allowed!) and I was put on hold late 86, got in 1988. Two and a half years of lost seniority. :(

[ruprecht]

I was put on hold late 96, got in 1988. Two and a half years of lost seniority. :(


...but at least you got to travel back in time. :O

[dragon man]

The no glasses rule was changed only because they ran out of suitable applicants. Crazy.

[JPJP]

...but at least you got to travel back in time. :O

If you cross the international date line enough times, this is what happens. It’s not a pretty sight :E

[Tankengine]

If you cross the international date line enough times, this is what happens. It’s not a pretty sight :E
too true! Yet another reason to retire by 60. ;)

[Tankengine]

The no glasses rule was changed only because they ran out of suitable applicants. Crazy.
Yep, of course nobody will say that officially.
Age for employment went from 28 up to 46 over a few years for the same reason and no discrimination allowed (officially) anymore.
Luckily getting in when I did saved me from Ansett, overseas airlines etc etc. 🤔

[Gligg]

Surely once you get to medical stage, a no means you have been 'out-medicalled' Sounds like Gattaca has arrived.

[normanton]

Surely once you get to medical stage, a no means you have been 'out-medicalled' Sounds like Gattaca has arrived.

Well not really. The review board doesn't look at your application until the medical is done. You would have no idea why they rejected your application. Could be average sim results for someone with experience. Could be the notes from the interview. Could be lack of customer service in your scenario. You will just never know.

[startno1]

I’ve been told the feedback from HR was actually quite open about why you were knocked back.
In saying that, some of the reasons are a joke. It seems flying a plane well is down the priority list these days.

[normanton]

I think internals get feedback. Externals are provided with nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[mattyj]

I wouldn’t put too much stock in feedback anyway..if they thought your dandruff and stale sweat and body odor issues weren’t conducive to being an airline pilot they’re going to say that a combination of sim and tech exam reasons or something to avoid saying the real reasons

[beauzo111]

Anybody have an idea as to when or how often the final review board is held each month for a final decision?

[Max-Diff]

Anybody have an idea as to when or how often the final review board is held each month for a final decision?

I believe it's every two three weeks but that said I'm aware some people recently have waited 4 weeks plus. Maybe try calling if you haven't heard anything by three weeks or so. Good luck!

[Sparrows.]

I believe it's every two three weeks but that said I'm aware some people recently have waited 4 weeks plus. Maybe try calling if you haven't heard anything by three weeks or so. Good luck!

A lot of boys and girls lately had to wait approximently 10 weeks. Even stranger when people who completed everything after them found out significantly earlier (talking about 6 weeks).

Some people tried chasing it up, hold up with medicals
on the doctors desk was the more often then not then answer. Some tried being a little push and were put in their place to a degree. As always, no news is good news

[Slezy9]

I know of two guys who got put on the hold file in November last year. They are both still waiting for start dates. Long time to be in limbo!

[TurningFinalRWY36]

The issue is that even if you end up on the hold file it doesn't guarantee employment. Offering of a start date is dependent on performance in the interview and if people after you continuously perform better then you are perpetually on hold

[Keg]

I know of two guys who got put on the hold file in November last year. They are both still waiting for start dates. Long time to be in limbo!

internal or external?

[Max-Diff]

The issue is that even if you end up on the hold file it doesn't guarantee employment. Offering of a start date is dependent on performance in the interview and if people after you continuously perform better then you are perpetually on hold
While this used to be the case, I don't believe it is anymore as they worked out that phosophy is completely unfair. Everyone I know who have got QF jobs recently, did so in the order that they went onto the hold file.

[Aviatrix91]

While this used to be the case, I don't believe it is anymore as they worked out that phosophy is completely unfair. Everyone I know who have got QF jobs recently, did so in the order that they went onto the hold file.

I’m fairly sure it is still the case based on people in the most recent courses with the exemption of internals

[Slezy9]

internal or external?


Both external.

[stormfury]

Both external.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories but any chance the upper echelons of DGPERS are any factor?

[Slezy9]

I’m not one for conspiracy theories but any chance the upper echelons of DGPERS are any factor?


Possibly. One is RAAF and the other is ex-RAAF...

I find it outrageous the RAAF is going behind people’s back who have faithfully served out their ROSO. (Because they have atrocious personnel management)

[stormfury]

Possibly. One is RAAF and the other is ex-RAAF...

I find it outrageous the RAAF is going behind people’s back who have faithfully served out their ROSO. (Because they have atrocious personnel management)
Agreed; I did hear on the grapevine about some alleged backroom deals between RAAF and QANTAS HR types. If true, this is not the way to retain people in the long-term - but I’m sure, if true, whoever thought this up will get recognised in the Australia Day H&A for a ‘job well done’.

[ruprecht]

I find it outrageous the RAAF is going behind people’s back who have faithfully served out their ROSO. (Because they have atrocious personnel management)

Outrageous, but unfortunately not surprising. :hmm:

[V24]

There are other externals who have been on hold since October 17 and were initially told possible start March 18. Now that courses are filled until Feb It'll be at least March 19...

[ClearanceClarence1]

I flew with a management guy recently who said they need 300 pilots next year, 200 retirements through to 2021 and there will be expansion with more routes and more planes ordered. Over the long term they will prefer to take pilots from the group airlines.

[startno1]

Is that 300 on top of the guys/girls they recently put on hold this year??

[Keg]

Wouldn’t think so. That would be incoming pilots.

[Max-Diff]

I’m fairly sure it is still the case based on people in the most recent courses with the exemption of internals

can you please elaborate on this?

[Flyboy1987]

Can anyone with reliable info comment on whether apps will reopen early next year?
Will mins be the same or will an MCC requirement be added?
Will an applicant have an equal chance regardless of being an internal/external?

[FogBuster]

Can anyone with reliable info comment on whether apps will reopen early next year?
Will mins be the same or will an MCC requirement be added?
Will an applicant have an equal chance regardless of being an internal/external?

If anyone here had reliable info about what you’re asking, this thread wouldn’t be over 2000 posts long.

For what it’s worth;

1. Maybe but probably not, was two years between current and last recruitment waves.
2. They’ll probably be similar, as a trend they’ve become less restrictive between the two recent recruitments. (Dropped academic requirements and such)
3. Don’t think it really makes a difference on an individual level. Based on the small sample I have access to I’d say that being an internal is worse, definitely have more strings attached to start date and such. Too bad QF doesn’t recognise group seniority or give guys a number once they’re on the hold file, something for the next EBAs maybe?

Take it all with a truckload of salt, I don’t think HR could give you the answers you’re seeking if they wanted to, let alone random pilots on a rumours forum.

[dragon man]

I flew with a management guy recently who said they need 300 pilots next year, 200 retirements through to 2021 and there will be expansion with more routes and more planes ordered. Over the long term they will prefer to take pilots from the group airlines.

I would say this is close to the mark however with the retraining required from the RIN on the 747 plus above the place will go into meltdown.

[Keg]

I flew with a management guy recently who said they need 300 pilots next year, 200 retirements through to 2021 and there will be expansion with more routes and more planes ordered. Over the long term they will prefer to take pilots from the group airlines.


The retirement numbers quoted by AIPA indicate only 76 pilots hitting 65 from 2019- 2021.

2019- 20
2020- 21
2021- 35
2022- 51
2023- 50
2024- 59
2025- 65
2026- 83
2027- 83
2028- 79
2029- 70
2030- 79

Of course many more may retire before 65 and no doubt a number of 744 pilots are likely to go when that fleet goes and distort the numbers over the next couple of years.

[dragon man]

The company is working on 62 average age for retirement. Personally I think it’s closer to 60 then you add in medical retirements as well which will increase the numbers. Lastly, when direct flights start between the east coast of Australia and New York plus London and other parts of Europe these are only available for airlines of the country of origin and destination cutting out fifth and sixth freedom carriers like Emerates and Singair. IMO Qantas will grow very quickly and hence the requirement for lots more pilots.

[Toga Toga Toga]

Impressive AIPA can come up with a breakdown like that. I know its only a rough guide - but at what seniority numbers does each rank start at present (ie WB commands start at 800, WB FO's at 1600, etc etc)?

Curious to see the expected progression, given the historically slow rate at QF.

[Keg]

Command
East coast wide body- 740
West coast wide body- 850
Adelaide 737- 1400
Perth 737- 1400
MEL 737- 1300
SYD 737- 1000
BNE 737- 1050

F/O
PER 787- 1500
PER A330- 1650
737
PER, ADL- 2470... essentially next vacancies after you join if you have a bid in.
SYD/ MEL- Next Training year after you join.
BNE- 2150

Bottom seniority as at 31 Jul 18 is 2533. Probably 40ish joiners since then.

[logansi]

Command
East coast wide body- 740
West coast wide body- 850
Adelaide 737- 1400
Perth 737- 1400
MEL 737- 1300
SYD 737- 1000
BNE 737- 1050

F/O
PER 787- 1500
PER A330- 1650
737

Hey Keg,

Any chance you could break this down into an estimated number of years for those on the outside? Say someone was hired as an S/O today, what would a realistic time frame be at least for the east coast 737 F/O bases? I know Perth is fairly low but what about the East Coast?

Thanks in Advance

[*Lancer*]

Also bear in mind that external factors and Group restructuring drastically affect progression rates, so they’re very hard to predict with much certainty.

The creation of Jetstar with a separate pilot workforce added 8 years. The GFC added 3. The collapse of Ansett offset 9/11.

[Rated De]

Also bear in mind that external factors and Group restructuring drastically affect progression rates, so they’re very hard to predict with much certainty.

The creation of Jetstar with a separate pilot workforce added 8 years. The GFC added 3. The collapse of Ansett offset 9/11.

The lost decade?

[High_To_Low]

Has anyone received emails recently from the recruitment team to either proceed to medical stage or hold file status?

[hotnhigh]

Command
East coast wide body- 24 years.
West coast wide body- 22 years
737 ADL- 17 years.
737 PER- 17 years
737 MEL- 18 years
737 SYD- 19 1/2
737 BNE- 19

F/O
A330 west coast- 13 1/2 years
787 west coast- 15 years


Any chance you can put that on a poster for the coffee shop located near the QCA, QCB, QCC? I bet 99.9% of the customers there have no idea of those numbers. But they do generally like the fact they are separated from the pilot group by a big shiny building and the street.

[mrdeux]

The retirement numbers quoted by AIPA indicate only 76 pilots hitting 65 from 2019- 2021.

2019- 20


2019 will be at least one higher than that....

[Sydpilot123]

Hi,

Looking at joining the mothership.

Could someone give me an indication of the pay.

737 FO
330 SO
787 SO

I presume these would be the lowest rank.

[Gligg]

'Also plans to trend back towards interviews that look for more 'pilot like attributes'

In other breaking news, Price Waterhouse Cooper have announced plans to pivot their selection process toward 'people who are good with numbers'

[...think or thwim]

has anyone on the hold file been contacted this year re a start date for feb, march or april?

[bulldog_pirate]

I know of one guy who was contacted Thursday (10th Jan) with a start date in April

[cqd]

Internal or external?

[bulldog_pirate]

Internal or external?
external recruit

[cqd]

external recruit

How long was he on hold for though?

[Boss100]

i know someone with an april start date. They said they were looking at Perth base as the only preference base which kinda meant that only Perth base was an option at this stage. Can anyone back this up? Would there not be bases over east since the 787 is starting to ramp up work out of Melb/Brisbane and Sydney shortly?

[bulldog_pirate]

How long was he on hold for though?
18 months or so from hold start to course start date

[bulldog_pirate]

i know someone with an april start date. They said they were looking at Perth base as the only preference base which kinda meant that only Perth base was an option at this stage. Can anyone back this up? Would there not be bases over east since the 787 is starting to ramp up work out of Melb/Brisbane and Sydney shortly?
all the SO’s in Perth currently that wish to be on the east coast will be in front of someone just joining so it depends on how many want out of Perth. I believe there is still movement due growth and fast sideways step to 737 FO but once the music stops it could be a long time waiting

[demid]

Any rumours re SO recruitment? Main website mentions Trainee SO Scheme (https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/qantas-careers/pilots-flight-operations.html#qantas) however no such position on the HR site (https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/Qantas_Careers/1/refreshFacet/318c8bb6f553100021d223d9780d30be).

[*Lancer*]

They’re increasing numbers in Perth for all 787 ranks, and S/Os already in Perth may be awarded transfers over new joiners. However that doesn’t mean there won’t be East Coast slots for new S/Os on the 787 or 330 in the months to come, and time to transfer is also relatively short at the moment.

Jobs will only appear on Workday when applications are open.

[bulldog_pirate]

They’re increasing numbers in Perth for all 787 ranks, and S/Os already in Perth may be awarded transfers over new joiners. However that doesn’t mean there won’t be East Coast slots for new S/Os on the 787 or 330 in the months to come, and time to transfer is also relatively short at the moment.

Jobs will only appear on Workday when applications are open.
fingers crossed that there is movement for a bit longer.

[High_To_Low]

Anyone this year received any news as to whether they’ve progressed to medical / psychologist or to hold file or been given the no?

[TangoYankee777]

Hello Everyone,
I've just finished Year 12 (with good grades in Physics, Methods and English) and am looking to become a commercial pilot for a major airline such as Qantas etc.
The Qantas program sounds promising to me but there has been very little news on its progression since it was announced mid-2018 to be situated in Toowoomba - does anyone know the approximate date that applications will open for the program / an outline of the program, costs or simply just more information will be released? Cheers in advance :)

[CurtainTwitcher]

TY777, before you get started down the pilot road, go and get an initial CASA class 1 medical. You would need to pay for this regardless of which path you go if you decide to fly. That way you can be ruled in or out. For instance for males colour blindness is approx 1in 8 which can be problematic. Without a Class 1 commercial aviation won't be possible, this is a show stopper. You need to visit a DAME, CASA has a search function (https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certification/aviation-medicine/pilots-and-air-traffic-controllers/search-medical-examiner-or-eye-examiner) to find your nearest one. You should also look at the fees, further details and information: First-time medical certificate applications (https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certification/aviation-medicine/first-time-medical-certificate-applications). It will probably cost $1000+ for the medical, tests and fees. Annual renewals are cheaper $200~$300 if you don't need additional specialist reports. You should keep your renewal up to date so you don't need to go through a second initial application if it has lapsed.

As for the proposed QF scheme, I would not be holding my breathe. Do not depend upon any airline to deliver anything to you. You could be waiting for an eternity, or they could open applications next week. If and when it does open, it would likely have very similar characteristics to the Jetstar program: JETSTAR CADET PILOT PROGRAM 2019 (https://www.jetstar.com/au/en/careers/media/jetstar-careers/client/Cadetship-Program/jetstar-cadet-pilot-program-vs5-sept18.pdf). Study the document extensively, then use the PPRuNe search function get almost all the answers to your questions.

Do you intend to be a Cadet only or not at all pilot? ie is this a binary choice for you? Would you consider doing it yourself if you didn't get into the Cadet program? Between the medical and the Jetstar info, that should keep you occupied for quite some time just getting your head around the key concepts.

There is a huge amount of information on PPRuNe The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions-91/) for someone considering this industry, learning to fly and the various pathways. I suggest you trawl there extensively, there is much hidden gold about how this business works. If you don't have contacts in the industry it will take months to begin to figure out how this pilot business *ACTUALLY* works. Before you commit to potentially financially ruinous path, I suggest extensive due diligence before committing a cent. If you aren't ruthlessly determined and a self-directed, this business isn't for you.

Good luck with your research and decision.

[Nkosi]

Well done Twitcher, a sensible reply to the youngster.

[muffman]

Agree with everything Twitcher said in his well thought out post.

I certainly wouldn't recommend putting your life on hold for the Qantas program. It will always be just one of several avenues into QF and given how recently it was announced, I wouldn't expect to see them taking students at Toowoomba any time soon.

Your uni preferences for 2019 are probably already set in stone, but at the moment the quickest way into the QF group for someone in your position is to study aviation at one of the approved universities in the Qantas Group Future Pilot Program. A significant number of graduates of these degrees are already working at QantasLink as FOs and will have a pathway into QF mainline available to them.

[havick]

What ever happened to packing a suitcase and heading into the bush? A lot of fun and teaches you valuable skills. If you are a sharp youngster, you will be picked up into a regional or better within a few years. I wouldn't give my GA time back for anything, some things you just can't learn in the right seat of a jet.

My 2c.

Normally I would agree with the above, however the industry (read legacy airline HR) is moving away from hiring GA pilots.

The quickest and what appears to be the most reliable route are these cadet style schemes on offer by the parent companies.

Not to thread drift, but if you look at the USA the same thing is happening to some degree. The legacy carriers are aligning themselves with flow through programs for there wholly owned regionals, or preferential interviews for contract carriers that fly their brand.

That being said I wouldn’t change my GA/helicopter experience before jumping into the airlines either for the life experiences it provided me. But these days I recommend new guys to jump on the train that’s going to get them a seniority number the quickest.

[TangoYankee777]

Thanks everyone for their valuable responses, I truly appreciate it.
To be completely honest, in regards to the path to becoming a pilot, I don't mind either undertaking a cadetship or doing it the "old fashioned way", (being that I get my CPL, then train or charter to get hours up before applying into the airlines.)

I'm essentially looking for the fastest way to do enter the "big leagues" as I want to enter my dream career quickly but also well prepared and well rounded, and to me the cadetship option seems as though it would be the quickest way to enter mainline. In regards to joining the universities and going through their programs, this just doesn't seem very viable to me as an option due to the 3 year course with no guaranteed job - I actually did work experience at CAE Oxford (I live about 10 minutes away from YMMB) but I figure that undertaking a commercial license at the local flight schools would be much quicker and cheaper.

Then again, I figure that if QF will be conducting their own training (and if they get up to 500 pilots per year as projected), why would they hire outsiders? The JQ and QF programs also look promising but what kinds of guarantees are in place for cadets as it seems quite fuzzy at the moment.

Keen to hear all of your thoughts on this - in regards to the medical, I'm booked in to be having it in the next 2 weeks or so - I've done a TIF and have a heap of sim time (I've got a system at home)
Thanks again for everyone's feedback

[rep]

I wouldn't be putting all my eggs in one basket if I were you.

[Flyboy1987]

I wouldn't be putting all my eggs in one basket if I were you.

mmm my thoughts exactly.

i wouldn’t think many attending the qf school would end up in mainline, maybe the very minimal amount to keep applications flowing in.

The school to me looked more aimed at recruiting people to qlink, over seas airlines, as well as simply training people who would be offered nothing at the end.

its been very quiet since announcing the location.

[Rated De]

When you look at the marketing that’s been released, the school is offering graduates a chance to enter ‘the Group’.

With a glossy cadetship setting one back $150,000 it may be wise to read the fine print.
It might be called bait and switch, but Qantas are 'fine upstanding corporate citizens'.

Caveat Emptor

[Who stole my meds]

Thanks everyone for their valuable responses, I truly appreciate it.
To be completely honest, in regards to the path to becoming a pilot, I don't mind either undertaking a cadetship or doing it the "old fashioned way", (being that I get my CPL, then train or charter to get hours up before applying into the airlines.)

I'm essentially looking for the fastest way to do enter the "big leagues" as I want to enter my dream career quickly but also well prepared and well rounded, and to me the cadetship option seems as though it would be the quickest way to enter mainline. In regards to joining the universities and going through their programs, this just doesn't seem very viable to me as an option due to the 3 year course with no guaranteed job - I actually did work experience at CAE Oxford (I live about 10 minutes away from YMMB) but I figure that undertaking a commercial license at the local flight schools would be much quicker and cheaper.

Then again, I figure that if QF will be conducting their own training (and if they get up to 500 pilots per year as projected), why would they hire outsiders? The JQ and QF programs also look promising but what kinds of guarantees are in place for cadets as it seems quite fuzzy at the moment.

Keen to hear all of your thoughts on this - in regards to the medical, I'm booked in to be having it in the next 2 weeks or so - I've done a TIF and have a heap of sim time (I've got a system at home)
Thanks again for everyone's feedback

The greatest single piece of advice I can give you is by all means learn how to fly if that's your passion. Be careful of cadet schemes though they may not give you a job if you don't come up to standard and you will have spent considerably more than if you paid for it yourself, but, here's the main point of my post, by all means have an airline in mind that you eventually want to work for but be prepared for the possibility that it may never happen and the idea that you may never work in Australia.
My airline of choice was Ansett Australia. I was looking for work when it went bust. I wasn't eligible for QF at the time due to high school education and for probably political reasons I never would have gotten a job at Virgin. I'm now working overseas and don't see myself ever working in Australia.
Go forth and learn to fly but do it in the knowledge that you won't get what you truly desire. If you can get what you want, then you've done well for yourself.

[logansi]

This was me about 10 years ago, right out of school I applied for all the major cadetships and silly 20 Y.O me thought surely i'd get into one of them, but of course I didn't - these things are very competitive. Being rejected hurt, I had planned to give up on aviation if I didn't get into one. Anyway to cut a long story short, I ended up going the traditional way, spend my savings and working to get my PPL, used Fee-Help to get my CPL and my instructor rating. I was one of the guys who only really got his instructor rating because it seemed like the 'easy way'. But guess what I actually really loved instructing, especially when I got to split my time between instructing and multi engine charter. I've just started at my first airline and to be honest while I enjoy it and its exciting and rewarding, part of me would love to go back to instructing and charter if only I was earning a salary which I felt was worth the investment and hardwork I had and was putting in.

If you have a passion for aviation you'll find that no matter what your doing, if you getting paid to fly, you'll love and enjoy it. TBH sometimes this is the problem with aviation, employees know how much we love to fly. If an airline or Qantas is your goal then great, as an instructor I always found students with a long term goal worker harder and were far more dedicated but don't be supplied if that goal changes. Good Luck.

[737pnf]

Tangoyankee777
Unless being a long haul pilot is what you truly want, as others have commented, don't get too focussed on glossy brochures featuring jets. Keep an open mind. My flying school never had models or posters of a Dash 8 for example but rather always of China Southern A330s, Emirates 777s and Qantas A380s. You can have a brilliant career in the other sectors too. Become an instructor in GA and work your way up to be your own boss as a testing officer, deciding the days you work and the days you have off and flying a broad fleet from the smallest piston twins to Conquests and King Airs, maybe even very light jets with synthetic vision in the future. Work for the flying doctors and be home most nights. Same same for regionals, in a close knit team of 3 or 4 (Captain, FO and Flight attendant/s), where you're hand flying the aircraft more, and manoeuvring around weather build ups, or outside controlled airspace where you're making your own decisions about aircraft safe tracking and efficiency, where you're farewelling and greeting passengers individually. Don't listen to people who say "props are for boats" or get sucked into "do you only fly domestic?" or "when are you going to fly the big ones?" as if you haven't made it until you do sit on your backside for 15hrs at a time, monitoring screen with minimal input and spending time away from friends and family. Do what's right for you. For your aviation aspirations, and more importantly, your lifestyle - what you want from life outside of work.
You can make a successful career for yourself as a pilot operating an aircraft that isn't propelled by fans...

[cqd]

Have any external applicants who interviewed from mid last year heard anything about start dates for this year? Hearing of a lot of internal hold file applicants who are getting dates in May/June who interviewed last August.

[Fujiroll76]

Have any external applicants who interviewed from mid last year heard anything about start dates for this year? Hearing of a lot of internal hold file applicants who are getting dates in May/June who interviewed last August.

Fairly quiet at the moment for externals.
Info from a friend of a friend - "10 new applicants joined in Jan with a further 10 monthly up until May" - Qantas HR. These are mostly if not all Internal applicants

Ive heard of internals who have starts right up to December 19'

There will still be external starts but it seems highly weighted on internals for the time being

[cqd]

Yeah, I got that email yesterday too. Was quoted 12-18 months initially on the hold file but was kind of hoping to hear of some externals with start dates in the last half of the year.

[Hold_Short]

Just got off the phone to a friend who ended up resigning from the Qantas group with a start date for mainline in March this year but because they would not tell her a base or fleet until 4 weeks prior to starting they took another airline job with better service and job prospects. I was amazed but it made sense that they took a job that was certain and not unknown. They mentioned also the recruitment personal have been useless and extremely uninformative for the entire process. They are glad to have knocked them back. Ciao

[Telfer86]

Why all the concern about "no guarantee of job" - that surely depends on the world economy

My understanding of the JQ cadetship is that at least 95% of those who got selected got checked to line

That is a pretty healthy number

[Transition Layer]

Just got off the phone to a friend who ended up resigning from the Qantas group with a start date for mainline in March this year but because they would not tell her a base or fleet until 4 weeks prior to starting they took another airline job with better service and job prospects. I was amazed but it made sense that they took a job that was certain and not unknown. They mentioned also the recruitment personal have been useless and extremely uninformative for the entire process. They are glad to have knocked them back. Ciao
Sounds like she’s a bit of a PITA and the QF Group could do without her.

[*Lancer*]

Yeah, I got that email yesterday too. Was quoted 12-18 months initially on the hold file but was kind of hoping to hear of some externals with start dates in the last half of the year.

Internals receive longer notice periods due to the coordination afforded subsidiaries.

Just because no external applicants may have a start date in July yet, won’t necessarily mean there aren’t any externals in July.

[Flyboy1987]

If people are now getting start dates, as above, does this mean that all assessments for applicants who applied April last year are complete?

[crosscutter]

Just got off the phone to a friend who ended up resigning from the Qantas group with a start date for mainline in March this year but because they would not tell her a base or fleet until 4 weeks prior to starting they took another airline job with better service and job prospects.

If they are happy with their decision then congrats (genuine).

Perhaps they didn’t want to reside in Perth for 6 months waiting for a BNE transfer or 737 MEL slot. 6 months is a long time in aviation (🙄not genuine unless WW3 or GFC2 erupts) I suspect the real explanation is beyond what is written above.

[cqd]

Internals receive longer notice periods due to the coordination afforded subsidiaries.

Just because no external applicants may have a start date in July yet, won’t necessarily mean there aren’t any externals in July.

Thanks for your reply Lancer. Hope that is the case!

[spondonicle]

It triggers me when I read that a pilot has "resigned from the Qantas Group" because they are going to only receive a measly 4 weeks notice for a mainline job. Left or right seat, it doesn't matter - in this industry it pays to be unencumbered by anything opposing a lifestyle change.

[uhoh]

Anyone Willing to provide a best guess/idea as to when applications will open again?

[Aviatrix91]

Anyone Willing to provide a best guess/idea as to when applications will open again?

All of this is guess work at best however with a healthy hold file ( there are people still getting slots from the 2016 recruitment drive) and a focus more on the school opening later in the year, I would hazard a guess at not before this time next year at the earliest

[Hold_Short]

It triggers me when I read that a pilot has "resigned from the Qantas Group" because they are going to only receive a measly 4 weeks notice for a mainline job. Left or right seat, it doesn't matter - in this industry it pays to be unencumbered by anything opposing a lifestyle change.

It had a lot more to do with the lifestyle in which Qantas was going to control. Seat changes yes were part of the problem as every seat change came with another move for the family unless you stayed in the same place and commuted. The 4 weeks notice was a problem when your moving back from overseas. Your husband and children also have to be happy with that. Fortunately other airlines are offering similar deal. No back seat driving, same base for seat changes and a career prospect for the next 20 or so years. Why get caught up in the race for the top at Qantas when you don't have to. I can completely understand and applaud her for going for a job that benifits herself and her family and not just herself.

[wombat watcher]

Do you want the job or not? It is for you to decide. If you want to be prissy about it, who would want to employ you? You are an potential employee that rings all thealarm bells about be a future drama queen.

[spondonicle]

It had a lot more to do with the lifestyle in which Qantas was going to control. Seat changes yes were part of the problem as every seat change came with another move for the family unless you stayed in the same place and commuted. The 4 weeks notice was a problem when your moving back from overseas. Your husband and children also have to be happy with that. Fortunately other airlines are offering similar deal. No back seat driving, same base for seat changes and a career prospect for the next 20 or so years. Why get caught up in the race for the top at Qantas when you don't have to. I can completely understand and applaud her for going for a job that benifits herself and her family and not just herself.

I understand your point. I guess I've just never heard of anyone turning down a jet job.

I suppose everyone is in a different situation and good on her for finding what she needed.

[*Lancer*]

It had a lot more to do with the lifestyle in which Qantas was going to control. Seat changes yes were part of the problem as every seat change came with another move for the family unless you stayed in the same place and commuted. The 4 weeks notice was a problem when your moving back from overseas. Your husband and children also have to be happy with that. Fortunately other airlines are offering similar deal. No back seat driving, same base for seat changes and a career prospect for the next 20 or so years. Why get caught up in the race for the top at Qantas when you don't have to. I can completely understand and applaud her for going for a job that benifits herself and her family and not just herself.

For what it's worth:

You can change seats in any base, it just may not be the first opportunity to do so.
The last F/O slot was formally awarded to an individual 2 weeks after they started (informally, it may happen sooner).
Notice periods may be variable. Cathay pilots often require 3 months for example, and many pilots have deferred start dates due to births etc.

Good luck to your mate, although any race at Qantas - like anywhere - is entirely the individuals' choice.

[maggot]

For what it's worth:

You can change seats in any base, it just may not be the first opportunity to do so.
The last F/O slot was formally awarded to an individual 2 weeks after they started (informally, it may happen sooner).
Notice periods may be variable. Cathay pilots often require 3 months for example, and many pilots have deferred start dates due to births etc.

Good luck to your mate, although any race at Qantas - like anywhere - is entirely the individuals' choice.
Also east coast 737 slots very junior, bne etc.

[Tankengine]

Do you want the job or not? It is for you to decide. If you want to be prissy about it, who would want to employ you? You are an potential employee that rings all thealarm bells about be a future drama queen.

Yep, it does look like we dodged a problem there. ;)

[Chadzat]

Soo many QF skygods here! Might seem surprising to some but there IS more to life than getting a ‘jet job’ at Qantas. Some people value lifestyle over being able to tell people they are a Qantas Pilot.....

What’s wrong with putting your hat in the ring then pulling it out when it is clear that the job offered won’t fit your lifestyle/family commitments?

[Tankengine]

Soo many QF skygods here! Might seem surprising to some but there IS more to life than getting a ‘jet job’ at Qantas. Some people value lifestyle over being able to tell people they are a Qantas Pilot.....

What’s wrong with putting your hat in the ring then pulling it out when it is clear that the job offered won’t fit your lifestyle/family commitments?



You are so right, there is more to life.
Of course the thread name is “Qantas Recruitment “.
If you are not interested that is just fine, equally - if you are not interested then Qantas is better off without you! ;)

[crosscutter]

Soo many QF skygods here! Might seem surprising to some but there IS more to life than getting a ‘jet job’ at Qantas. Some people value lifestyle over being able to tell people they are a Qantas Pilot.....

What’s wrong with putting your hat in the ring then pulling it out when it is clear that the job offered won’t fit your lifestyle/family commitments?



Firstly, the person who has chosen another career path other than the QF group has neither posted here nor stuck her head up to warrant personal criticism. Another poster has relayed information.

Secondly, I believe, what has many on here tapping on the keyboard is the suspicion that her interpretation of what is best for her lifestyle and family is quite likely misguided and has been clouded by a short term ‘win’. As others have said, once you are in Mainline, no one forces you to a base change or promotion. There are flexible working arrangements available if warranted and numerous career options for that ‘next stage of life’.

It is hard to understand her decision based on the reality of ground zero at QF at the moment...(ps..I don’t know any personal circumstances in this case, nor am I saying a wrong decision has been made or saying what she should have done...just saying in my opinion, based on a strong sample size and bell distribution of brand new recruits (mostly around 30yrs or older) her supposed logic in coming to her decision is very questionable.)

[Transition Layer]

Soo many QF skygods here! Might seem surprising to some but there IS more to life than getting a ‘jet job’ at Qantas. Some people value lifestyle over being able to tell people they are a Qantas Pilot.....

What’s wrong with putting your hat in the ring then pulling it out when it is clear that the job offered won’t fit your lifestyle/family commitments?


You lost me at Skygod...

[Hold_Short]

Exactly. We all have choices and we interview companies we want to work for just as much as they interview us. If, for some reason what they are offering in a total package does not suit yourself or your family, then you CAN CHOOSE to not take the job if offered.

This is lady is not the only person who has rejected Qantas over the past few years. Qantas are in a position to dangle a carrot and it’s up to the general pilot demographic to decide if they want it or not. Many moons ago there were not many options however in today’s world there is plenty. She has also been flying a jet for the company and so moving onto the mothership is not going to be of benefit if each opportunity which comes up (seniority depicted) within requires a move to another city. She is completely aware that for many others this is fine, she herself does not want to commute and or move the family any more. She has moved for aviation 8 times already, so when do you stop? She was content with her current position and found she did not need the change to complete her career.

I completey understood and and respected this. There are a lot more considerations to be made as we get older and having the responsibility of children and a marriage can and is for some more important. Her dealings with the recruiters and the total process was fine it was simply the total package. She can stay where she lives and move seats when she is abled to do so all from the comfort of her home.

If you are young and driven by the desire to climb the seniority ladder for promotion then by all means it seems a fantastic job.

[TimmyTee]

TL, just like when you can’t tell who the annoying person in the room is, perhaps the same applies when you can’t work out who the Skygod(s) in the room are..

[Transition Layer]

TL, just like when you can’t tell who the annoying person in the room is, perhaps the same applies when you can’t work out who the Skygod(s) in the room are..
Yeh, good one! :hmm:

Anyway, back on topic - QF Recruitment. Let the next generation of Skygods fulfil their dreams :}

[Ducksbum]

Anyway, back on topic - QF Recruitment. Let the next generation of Skygods fulfil their dreams :}

So as a mid-40’s bloke looking for one of those shiny jet jobs after 20 years of turboprops, have I missed the window to make the change. A cruizy SO gig sounds appealing right now but I do enjoy the left-hand seat, will I be nearing retirement before I see a LHS again...and 1-2 years just to get through the door!

[Flyboy1987]

So as a mid-40’s bloke looking for one of those shiny jet jobs after 20 years of turboprops, have I missed the window to make the change. A cruizy SO gig sounds appealing right now but I do enjoy the left-hand seat, will I be nearing retirement before I see a LHS again...and 1-2 years just to get through the door!

I believe the most of us have unfortunately missed the qf boat.

Applications open for 2 weeks each 18 months during a so called pilot shortage.

Looks like being in the group counts for more than experience, aptitude, personality etc.

I still try to remain positive and hope applications open again this year, keeping all options both in Aus and abroad open though.

Good luck to everyone.

[Fonz121]

Looks like being in the group counts for more than experience, aptitude, personality etc.

How do you know what the experience, aptitude and personality of the internal applicants are? A candidate from the group is a known entity. An external applicant is not.

Although I’ll admit that the odd internal applicant has slipped through the net with a less than perfect track record.

[HappyBandit]

So as a mid-40’s bloke looking for one of those shiny jet jobs after 20 years of turboprops, have I missed the window to make the change. A cruizy SO gig sounds appealing right now but I do enjoy the left-hand seat, will I be nearing retirement before I see a LHS again...and 1-2 years just to get through the door!
As someone thats flown both, it really isnt about the plane...that bit wears off quickly. If you are happy with your lifestyle, get holidays when you typically want, home most nights...theyre the big ticket items in my book.

[Flyboy1987]

How do you know what the experience, aptitude and personality of the internal applicants are? A candidate from the group is a known entity. An external applicant is not.


Because they’re my friends.

They’re great people, but even they’ll admit, they wouldn’t have gotten an interview unless they were in the group.

Would a skippers dash 8 pilot have the exact same chance as a qlink pilot at getting an interview?

[nexttime]

Because they’re my friends.

They’re great people, but even they’ll admit, they wouldn’t have gotten an interview unless they were in the group.

Would a skippers dash 8 pilot have the exact same chance as a qlink pilot at getting an interview?


Gee's, I had my interview with Mineline and I only flew a single engine turbo prop. Compared to the other candidates on the day I was definitely at the bottom in terms of experience! BUT, I did something right to make it to the interview.

Although I didn't progress through to the next day.

There are so many damn variables in the whole process - even the initial 5 question interview, initial talent Q, group exercise, 1 on 2 interview with pilot and person from HR, the scenario they give you, validation, education, what colour g-string you wore ect ect ect.

They can be and will be picky with who they want.

I still take my hat off to everyone that get's through - some questionable people for sure, but whatever, good on 'em!

[LostontheLOC]

Would a skippers dash 8 pilot have the exact same chance as a qlink pilot at getting an interview?


Definitely not, the application form is a basic IQ test, the skipper's pilot would have a hard time writing their own name.

[startno1]

Unfortunately the selection process is not bullet proof. I’ve seen some great, hard working, honest people get knocked back, while others who I would not let my dog fly with get through. Some get friends to do the initial TalentQ testing for them, some tweak some documents to meet minimum requirements.
HR think they are getting the best people for the job, but in some cases they are being played. Not saying all, but definitely some out there.

[spondonicle]

Some get friends to do the initial TalentQ testing for them


Verification at the assessment centre would usually filter those honest people out.

[startno1]

Verification at the assessment centre would usually filter those honest people out.

Yes that is the idea I guess, but for some reason QF give people a second chance if their results on the assessment day (verification) don’t match up with the initial online tests.
This happened to the ones I know of and they got through on the second go. No idea why they give a second chance on this. Seems to defeat the purpose of the verification to me.

[ruprecht]

...while others who I would not let my dog fly with get through.

Yep, like that selfie muppet in Perth... :hmm:

[cqd]

Yes that is the idea I guess, but for some reason QF give people a second chance if their results on the assessment day (verification) don’t match up with the initial online tests.
This happened to the ones I know of and they got through on the second go. No idea why they give a second chance on this. Seems to defeat the purpose of the verification to me.


I used the idea that if I sucked at the initial psychometric tests, all I have to do is suck for the verification tests... Seemed to work!

[rep]

If you haven't already started with QF then I agree you have missed the boat.

Thats not saying you won't get a start date, but you have for sure missed the seniority train. Expect a long career as FO.

[Slezy9]

I think you mean...

If you haven't already started with QF then I agree you have missed the boat.

Thats not saying you won't get a start date, but you have for sure missed the seniority train. Expect a long career as FO SO.

[rep]

I think you mean...
Actually I didn't.

Join now and your ~400 behind since recruitment started in 2016.

SO time will most likely drop as huge amount of guys retire, but you can expect a long time as FO because there is literally 400 new joiners in front of you.

If you don't like SO, you can still get Perth 737 F/O in the first month subject to training availability.

If you are still looking to join QF, I would be praying for more 787 orders.

[Capt Fathom]

SO time will most likely drop as huge amount of guys retire, but you can expect a long time as FO

That doesn't make sense? Why would time as a SO differ from time as an FO due retirements?

[rep]

That doesn't make sense? Why would time as a SO differ from time as an FO due retirements?
Because there is 400 new joiners in front of you who will sit on command?

[ANCDU]

Rep is correct on this one, join now and you will have an extended career as an FO, join in 6 months or later expect to be an SO for an extended period. Those not at the start of a hiring boom are always disadvantaged here, and the start has definitely gone.

There is no pilot shortage at Qantas mainline, and there never will be. There is a training glut, the system here takes a ridiculous time to train or upgrade, its not that the training is more intense or safer than other airlines it’s just the mainline way , especially in long haul. This takes pilots out of the system for long periods so there is a perceived shortage. When the training slows and it will, hiring will slow dramatically as well, to the point of stagnation again.

Its a great place to work and it’s fantastic seeing new faces but if you are expecting quick progression through the ranks you need to expect to be dissapointed.

[Jeps]

Lest we forget that a large number in Mainline are 50+. In 15 years they will all be gone. If you consider that amount of time to be a long time then you have a point but if we assume that project sunrise goes ahead at some point and ultra long flying becomes standard then QF like everywhere else is going to have a major problem.

[MACH082]

There are a lot of high paying jobs at qantas that don’t require the left seat.

[ANCDU]

There are a lot of high paying jobs at qantas that don’t require the left seat.

of course there are, but they require the seniority of some left hand seats..or higher! And that what it’s all about here , seniority., which if you are joining from now on you don’t have much of.

Im not saying it’s a bad place to get stuck in the right hand seat , it isn’t. You just need to be prepared for the fact that there is a good chance it will be longer than you think. This place is notorious for stopping recruiting and expansion at any sign of a hiccup or share price fluctuation, it’s as though group management are adverse to expansion in mainline, but that’s a topic that’s been done to death here. Project Sunrise I don’t see as expansion, it will be point to point but codesharing more ports that are used as stopovers.

[cqd]

Can anyone shed light on if start dates are based on how well you did in the interview/sim etc or are they based on when you were placed on the hold file? Hearing conflicting stories...

[Going Boeing]

When I went through the process (many years ago), applicants were placed on the hold file in the order of their scores achieved during the testing/interview process and each course was selected from the top of the list.

These days, the process is controlled by HR and we know that they are selecting applicants from certain profile groups out of the usual ranking sequence.

[A320 Flyer]

It also depends if you’re an internal or external applicant. For internal applicants once you are on the hold file it’s up the your respective group company to advise a release date to Qantas.

[crosscutter]

These days, the process is controlled by HR and we know that they are selecting applicants from certain profile groups out of the usual ranking sequence.

By the looks of the last few intakes, the pool of "certain profile groups" is dry

[cqd]

When I went through the process (many years ago), applicants were placed on the hold file in the order of their scores achieved during the testing/interview process and each course was selected from the top of the list.

These days, the process is controlled by HR and we know that they are selecting applicants from certain profile groups out of the usual ranking sequence.

Thanks for the feedback! So from what you're saying, the chances of myself starting on the same course as the people I interviewed with is quite remote/anyone's guess as it's based on our individual profile assessment?

[Going Boeing]

Yes, AFAIK. The person with more up to date knowledge of how the system is working is Keg - he might provide some input when he gets some time.

[Bongodongo]

Been on hold for 18 months.

I obviously scraped into the hold.

The boat has sailed for me, but I will be interested if and when they ever offer me a position.

[das Uber Soldat]

Does everyone who interviews get automatically invited to the medical?

[Aviatrix91]

Does everyone who interviews get automatically invited to the medical?

nope, you have to pass the first day of interviews to get invited to do the sim and then pass the sim to get invited to do the medical

[Rated De]

Lest we forget that a large number in Mainline are 50+. In 15 years they will all be gone. If you consider that amount of time to be a long time then you have a point but if we assume that project sunrise goes ahead at some point and ultra long flying becomes standard then QF like everywhere else is going to have a major problem.

In demographics is destiny.

QF are not immune.

A genuine question, has the stream lead and the merry band secured a location, AOC and instructors yet?
Has the QF pilot academy turned out a pilot yet?

[Iron Bar]

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-20/bored-adelaide-pilot-leaves-message-on-flight-radar/10829262?pfmredir=sm


Give this guy a job immediately!

[log0008]

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-20/bored-adelaide-pilot-leaves-message-on-flight-radar/10829262?pfmredir=sm


Give this guy a job immediately!

Should have written "QF Job Please"

[Fujiroll76]

Can anyone in the know shed some light on a typical PER-LHR-PER trip for an SO commuting from the east coast (Sydney) and being Perth based.
- limits on paxing the day before
- known crash pads in Perth
- time off in LHR
- are you allowed to pax to the east coast straight after arrival back into PER?
- the time between having to do it all over again and head back west

​​​​​​​appreciate any info

[Flyboy1987]

Can anyone in the know shed some light on a typical PER-LHR-PER trip for an SO commuting from the east coast (Sydney) and being Perth based.
- limits on paxing the day before
- known crash pads in Perth
- time off in LHR
- are you allowed to pax to the east coast straight after arrival back into PER?
- the time between having to do it all over again and head back west

appreciate any info

also intersted to know what the deal is when on reserve?
can you be on the east coast while on reserve for a potential Perth to Heathrow flight?

[SandyPalms]

If you are Perth based, that is where you will sit reserve. If you are based on the east coast that is where you will sit reserve.

[Flyboy1987]

If you are Perth based, that is where you will sit reserve. If you are based on the east coast that is where you will sit reserve. It’s complicated I know.

I know Perth based pilots, who live in Sydney, tell me they’re on reserve while they’re in Sydney.

[maggot]

So perhaps someone can let me know how that works....

[SandyPalms]

Sure. Scheduling may be doing them favour, but you can’t count on that. But you can’t sit reserve in Sydney and be called out for a London. They require someone in Perth. If you’re Perth based, be prepared to actually go to Perth sometimes. It’s how it works.

[pylonracer]

Sure. Scheduling may be doing them favour, but you can’t count on that. But you can’t sit reserve in Sydney and be called out for a London. They require someone in Perth. If you’re Perth based, be prepared to actually go to Perth sometimes. It’s how it works.

I'm confused? If your Perth based wouldn't you be prepared to be actually based in Perth. ie. not sometimes but always be in Perth?
Just asking

[engine out]

Even as a commuter you will be expected to be in base on standby (there is a clause in the EBA allowing you to be out of base at company discretion). I’m not a Perth SO but I would imagine if a junior blank line holder you could expect 20+ Days standby in a roster if there’s no trips to do.

Before a trip they want you there 24hrs before departure, and at least one SO has been stood down for arriving too close to departure. Flights can be quite full and sometimes cancelled so always leave plenty of time to get to Perth and be adequately rested.

[IsDon01]

Even as a commuter you will be expected to be in base on standby (there is a clause in the EBA allowing you to be out of base at company discretion). I’m not a Perth SO but I would imagine if a junior blank line holder you could expect 20+ Days standby in a roster if there’s no trips to do.

Before a trip they want you there 24hrs before departure, and at least one SO has been stood down for arriving too close to departure. Flights can be quite full and sometimes cancelled so always leave plenty of time to get to Perth and be adequately rested.

Not correct.

I’m a 787 F/O. I pax to PER from my home in SYD on the afternoon of the departure. When the flight arrives from LHR I pax straight through to SYD. There are no formal restrictions on this. I’ve even used the ALTPAX capability to achieve the above.

If your based on the East coast for a LHR flight, you will spend 48hrs in the company hotel before operating. Note this is not a commuter based in PER, this is someone based on the East coast

As for the S/O purportedly stood down for operating on the day, I call BS on that. I’d suggest he probably got there late for call.

Slip in LHR is now 50 odd hours. Recently reduced from 74 hours.

There is a crew commuter house in Redcliffe for $65/night which works well for standbys etc.

My quickest turnaround between London trips has been two days.

[Fujiroll76]

Not correct.

I’m a 787 F/O. I pax to PER from my home in SYD on the afternoon of the departure. When the flight arrives from LHR I pax straight through to SYD. There are no formal restrictions on this. I’ve even used the ALTPAX capability to achieve the above.

If your based on the East coast for a LHR flight, you will spend 48hrs in the company hotel before operating. Note this is not a commuter based in PER, this is someone based on the East coast

As for the S/O purportedly stood down for operating on the day, I call BS on that. I’d suggest he probably got there late for call.

Slip in LHR is now 50 odd hours. Recently reduced from 74 hours.

There is a crew commuter house in Redcliffe for $65/night which works well for standbys etc.

My quickest turnaround between London trips has been two days.

Thanks for the comments. Appreciate it

[C441]

As for the S/O purportedly stood down for operating on the day, I call BS on that

As I understand it, the S/O in question was paxing to Perth (possibly Alt Paxing), missed his flight but arranged to pax on another carrier that was arriving in Perth just prior to the PER-LHR departure time. He did make it to the aircraft in time but had some other less-than-ideal 'notoriety' at the time which, combined with his paxing efforts, led to some Company sanctions.

At the end of the day, if you're Perth based then you are required to be available in Perth under the terms of the EA with regard to standby's and other duties. At the moment, how you get to the airport at the required time and fit for duty is up to you if you choose to commute from elsewhere.

If you negotiate to do a standby from Sydney or similar; good for you. I commute from Brisbane to Melbourne and have managed to negotiate quite a few standbys in Brissy, but that's usually been when there's the potential for me to be more useful to them in Brissy than Melbourne - eg: US to SYD/MEL flights diverting to Bris.

[SandyPalms]

I'm confused? If your Perth based wouldn't you be prepared to be actually based in Perth. ie. not sometimes but always be in Perth?
Just asking

We are talking mainly about guys/gals that have been based in Perth as their initial category who feel that they shouldn’t have to comply with the EA as they would rather be somewhere else. It’s not just the Perth based people either, east coast based pilots are incapable of reading the contract also. I’ve heard of a bloke who was on available days (you know, the ones where you are available to the company) and wouldn’t answer his phone. Crewing called his manager who sent him a text detailing the consequences of not calling him back (back to the dole que), when he called back it turns out he was in Bali on a surfing trip. Tough luck, you are required for a duty, how you get there is your problem. It’s only going to take one getting sacked to wake up the entitled. Problem for these people is that those details stay on your file forever. When it’s time for an upgrade, that stuff is all taken into account. Good luck to the next generation.

[Rated De]

At the end of the day, if you're Perth based then you are required to be available in Perth under the terms of the EA with regard to standby's and other duties. At the moment, how you get to the airport at the required time and fit for duty is up to you if you choose to commute from elsewhere.

It would be a brave person to stand before a judge and say that commuting across a continent before a long TOD meets the rest requirements.

In the UK, British Airways have banned the use of staff travel on day of operation. Naturally, there are numerous ways around this, however the UK CAA is now looking through not only staff travel but commute times more broadly. The intent is to investigate whether sign on times and rest periods are adequate given, among other things housing costs pushing people further away from the base. Suffice to say the onus presently remains is on the pilot. that BA have acted the way they have may give an insight to the way this responsibility will be handled in the future; joint liability.
Rest assured being fit for duty will be heavily scrutinised in the years to come. It would be an extremely precarious position to explain to His Honour that flying across a continent and then operating a night TOD around 20 hours had as little impact on the performance of one's duties as a short 30 minute drive to sign on.

[engine out]

Getting a little more back on topic. According to the Qantas there are currently 151 pilots on the hold file, not counting those assigned to the next four courses up to end of April (about 50). Also 134 pilots currently being processed after assessment days.

[IsDon01]

It would be a brave person to stand before a judge and say that commuting across a continent before a long TOD meets the rest requirements.

In the UK, British Airways have banned the use of staff travel on day of operation. Naturally, there are numerous ways around this, however the UK CAA is now looking through not only staff travel but commute times more broadly. The intent is to investigate whether sign on times and rest periods are adequate given, among other things housing costs pushing people further away from the base. Suffice to say the onus presently remains is on the pilot. that BA have acted the way they have may give an insight to the way this responsibility will be handled in the future; joint liability.
Rest assured being fit for duty will be heavily scrutinised in the years to come. It would be an extremely precarious position to explain to His Honour that flying across a continent and then operating a night TOD around 20 hours had as little impact on the performance of one's duties as a short 30 minute drive to sign on.

Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.

[High_To_Low]

I can see this being a repeat of 2007//2008 for us on the hold ��

[rep]

I can see this being a repeat of 2007//2008 for us on the hold ��
I highly doubt it.

The next 6 x 787's are replacements for the 747 so not really any expansion there. The 'project sunrise' aircraft will be expansion.

More 787 orders which I see happening will mean on-going recruitment for years to come. Management appear very happy with just how well they are doing. They still have another 30 purchase rights.

[High_To_Low]

Seems to be a huge hold file they are creating nonetheless with numerous holdfilers destined to spend 12+ months waiting which begs the question....why have so many if there’s only say 15/month with courses only ‘confirmed’ up until May

[34R]

Seems to be a huge hold file they are creating nonetheless with numerous holdfilers destined to spend 12+ months waiting which begs the question....why have so many if there’s only say 15/month with courses only ‘confirmed’ up until May

I guess because things can change very rapidly.

It's not convenient for those on hold, but the company does need to be in a position to move quickly if the need arises. Compounding the issue will be the next years internal training requirements which are every bit as likely to be as demanding as last years, or thereabouts....

You can't do much more than put yourself in a position to to be available when required, sucks I know. I was on hold for 24 months 13 years ago and out of the blue got the call.

Hang in there.

[spektrum]

How long does the recruitment process take?
Due to the high number of applications received, processing times may vary. Face to face assessments are likely to commence in May 2018. Face to face assessment through to the final decision usually takes between 4 and 6 weeks.

If I resign from my current entity will this accelerate the process for me applicaiton?
If you resign from your current entity during any stage of the recruitment process your application will be withdrawn.

The above excerpts are from the FAQ document that accompanied the last internal EOIs which were in March 2018.

People from that application window that diligently prepared CVs and cover letters, that traveled(usually the day before) at their own expense to Sydney on two occasions for both the interviews and simulator assessments racking up probably close to $1000 on airfares and accommodation.
Then there was the whole suite of medical examinations required to be done at 'qantas approved' examiners costing anywhere from $500 to $1000. Mind boggling when you're already a group pilot, you are already on file at qantas medicals yet they want you to do one again?

So there you have ~$2000 of incurred expenses and 7 days out of your life gone just to apply for a position.

After all that, 11 months later there are still candidates awaiting information from 'TALENT ACQUISITION' whether or not they have been put on 'active hold', the term itself being quite the fabulous oxymoron.

It's really despicable what that department is doing. This all could easily be seen as retention inducing dangling carrot.

I get it, few positions, plenty of people wanting to work there. Do the right thing and at least narrow down the application criteria so you don't waste peoples time and money. Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
Of some of the people that have received negative outcomes its unbelievable how many of them are good LHS operators.

Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently. That department needs a proper overhaul.

[Flyboy1987]

Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
Of some of the people that have received negative outcomes its unbelievable how many of them are good LHS operators.

Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently. That department needs a proper overhaul.

i’m guessing all the internal “no’s” were white males?

[startno1]

Throw in another $1000++ for online/interview/sim prep, because knowing your stuff just isn’t important these days, you really need to know how to manage some angry customers at a restaurant though.

[friednick]

Jeez spektrum you have a wild view on this process.

People from that application window that diligently prepared CVs and cover letters, that traveled(usually the day before) at their own expense to Sydney on two occasions for both the interviews and simulator assessments racking up probably close to $1000 on airfares and accommodation.

Do you think it's unusual for employers require candidates to travel to sit interviews/assessments? Because it's pretty normal in any other industry. Of course it's nice when an employer is doing well enough to offer to pay for those expenses. But do you seriously think Qantas are going to CHOOSE to pay for candidate's transport when they are well aware of the extent people are willing to go to for success in this process? And why are they so willing? Because the job is worth it on the other side of the assessment process. I mean come on. This isn't a poor business decision. It's just not to your liking.

Internal applicants were rostered paid days off in order to attend their assessments. A luxury that did not have to be afforded to any of them but it's still an advantage that many externals would have appreciated from their respective employers because this is usually a serious hurdle to overcome for pilots attending interviews from other airlines.

Then there was the whole suite of medical examinations required to be done at 'qantas approved' examiners costing anywhere from $500 to $1000. Mind boggling when you're already a group pilot, you are already on file at qantas medicals yet they want you to do one again?

I agree with this. I cannot find logic in their demands for a medical if you already hold a CASA class 1. However, liability is a complicated thing and may governed this process but I am not sure.

Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.

And I suppose you would qualify? Of course. Because 95% of pilots think they perform above average. The people who throw around "merit" are likely the ones who think they deserve for Qantas to pay for their transport and accomodation because they are so fortunate to have those people applying to work there. Since you were happy to spell the word out for us, why don't you suggest a way to measure "merit" across the entire group in a way that everyone finds fair? Sounds easy enough to figure out the way you write about this stuff.

I get it, few positions, plenty of people wanting to work there.
I don't think you do get it.

It's really despicable what that department is doing.
Lies and deceit. Thats the spirit of australia apparently.
Now come on. When were you lied to and deceived? You're poisoning the well here and does nothing for your argument other than appeal to your spite.

[spektrum]

I probably should have made it clear that I don't see an issue with funding your own travel costs when applying for a job. The crux of the matter is the fact that they expect one to jump through a plethora of hurdles, spending not negligible amounts of money and the department still can't give you a verdict on the outcome of your application 11 months later.
Do you personally think that is reasonable Friednick? What is your current position if I may ask?

[das Uber Soldat]

Or maybe even move towards looking at a certain thing called MERIT. M-E-R-I-T.
How did the process not measure 'merit' ?

They looked at your experience via your CV. The looked at your motivation in your cover letter. They looked at your psychometric ability with 2 rounds of testing. They looked at your decision making model and attitude via the behavioral interview. They looked at your flying ability in the sim. They looked at your reputation via your references.

What did they miss? Did they forget to ask if you can juggle?

Airline interviews have always been a ****show, how this is a surprise to anyone is a surprise to me.

[Fujiroll76]

Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.

Out of curiosity, how do the rest periods run on board? One at a time, SO/CPT at the same time ect
Is it a single 4 hour block?

[IsDon01]

Out of curiosity, how do the rest periods run on board? One at a time, SO/CPT at the same time ect
Is it a single 4 hour block?

The only requirement is that either Capt or F/O must be on duty with one of the S/Os. Essentially that means the two S/Os sort out between them who’s on duty and who’s resting and the Capt and F/O do the same.

Usually you you get two breaks each. A short and a long. Depending on the sector and whether your body is ready to sleep the first break could either be the short or the long. It’s flexible. Some guys prefer to say just let me sleep for a maximum of five hours. If I can’t sleep I’ll be back after 3. If the guy on duty feels tired then he just calls his mate back earlier.

Usually on the PER-LHR each of you will get a total of 8 hours in the bunk. Manage it well and your quite ok at the other end.

[Fujiroll76]

The only requirement is that either Capt or F/O must be on duty with one of the S/Os. Essentially that means the two S/Os sort out between them who’s on duty and who’s resting and the Capt and F/O do the same.

Usually you you get two breaks each. A short and a long. Depending on the sector and whether your body is ready to sleep the first break could either be the short or the long. It’s flexible. Some guys prefer to say just let me sleep for a maximum of five hours. If I can’t sleep I’ll be back after 3. If the guy on duty feels tired then he just calls his mate back earlier.

Usually on the PER-LHR each of you will get a total of 8 hours in the bunk. Manage it well and your quite ok at the other end.

Thanks Don. Great insight into the long haul life

[Rated De]

Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.


Whether it suits your company or not is immaterial. That it works for you is great, however leaving aside the practicality have you considered how the court would view it?

British Airways are not banning leisure travel on the day of operation to be petty. They have likely acted in response to the perceived shared legal responsibility for adequate rest before flight. In other words they probably recognise the potential for liability in the event of an accident and the court deciding a pilot involved was consented to commute on day of operations.
Perhaps the distinction is a little nuanced, however what may work for you personally, and appear to have the tacit approval of the company, may be a risky position to adopt in the event that there is a serious operational incident.
Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.

[IsDon01]

Whether it suits your company or not is immaterial. That it works for you is great, however leaving aside the practicality have you considered how the court would view it?

British Airways are not banning leisure travel on the day of operation to be petty. They have likely acted in response to the perceived shared legal responsibility for adequate rest before flight. In other words they probably recognise the potential for liability in the event of an accident and the court deciding a pilot involved was consented to commute on day of operations.
Perhaps the distinction is a little nuanced, however what may work for you personally, and appear to have the tacit approval of the company, may be a risky position to adopt in the event that there is a serious operational incident.
Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.

As already stated, I am more than happy to justify my position to the judge.

Despite your concerns, I don’t believe Qantas would have any issues either. They recognise the irrefutable fact that fatigue is a very personal thing. What works for one person, doesn’t work for someone else. To stringently legislate a set of protocols to cover commuting would actually adversely affect those, like me, who find the paxing on the day option results in less fatigue on arrival in London. By legislating a tight set of protocols as BA have done may actually open them up to liability rather than protect them from it. You can’t legislate out fatigue. A pilot in an incident could say that he was forced to operate in a method dictated by BAs restrictions which was sub optimal for him personally. Accordingly, your honour, I was actually more fatigued due to BAs restrictions than I would be if given the latitude to commute when it suited me.

The Colgan Air accident highlighted the fatigue issues relating to commuting before operating and is often trotted out to justify the position of the armchair critics such as yourself. There is a world of difference between commuting across the country and then operating a 2 pilot 4 sector domestic day, and paxing to operate a 4 pilot single sector day with 8 hours rest in the bunk en route. A 2 pilot 4 sector domestic day is tiring even without commuting. I would never consider paxing across the country immediately prior to operating this duty day. A single sector 4 pilot duty is totally different, and requires a different approach.

i understand you not getting it RD as you don’t have a frame of reference.

[Lapon]

Asking your employer for their consent, in writing, to position of day of operations prior to an arduous tour of duty may not elicit a favourable response.

Apparently this is the process for the Air NZ boys and girls who commute. Apparently he current mood is to approve commuting although the company have flip flopped on thier view of this over time.
I think part of the reluctance to allow it was a fear of the regulator pushing for greater recognition of commute times which never really eventuated, and instead the reality that a commuter flying in from the regions would have a shorter journey to work than someone driving through rush hour traffic cause the company to relent?
Either way, it is ultimately the pilots responsibility to arrive fit for duty, and you can be sure the company will do thier best to hang you out if there is ever to be a perceived liability on thier part.

[Lezzeno]

i understand you not getting it RD as you don’t have a frame of reference.

Can you share with the rest of us what you know of RD's experience and qualifications that enable you to make such a statement?

[IsDon01]

Can you share with the rest of us what you know of RD's experience and qualifications that enable you to make such a statement?

Maybe RD is best placed to answer that one.

[C441]

And dragging this back to recruitment.....
Suffice to say, if recruited you can expect to be based at any of the longhaul aircraft bases, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane on most likely the A330 or 787 (unless you win the lottery and get a 380 spot).

Regardless of where you choose to live you will be expected to be at your base ready to operate as required under the award. As an S/O and it's a flying duty, that usually means ready to do a walkaround, participate as required pre-flight and be sufficiently rested to jump into a front seat at around 20,000ft on climb for up to 6 or 7 hours - assuming it's a longer sector. Most often though, you'll get the first break and do the latter 6 or 7 hours before top of descent (on 3-pilot sectors). As IsDon says, how you make that work is up to you. Most are making it work, but it only takes a few who wont, to change the current documented 'Commuting Guidelines' into 'Commuting Rules'.

If you don't feel that's for you, you think you can manipulate the system to your advantage or you have other interests that are more important than being fit for duty as required, withdraw your application now as you may still get a gig but your colleagues will soon tire of your attitude.

If you have enough enthusiasm to tackle that, then come on in, the water's great!! :ok:

Spoken as a commuter for 29 years.

[skysook]

And dragging this back to recruitment.....
Suffice to say, if recruited you can expect to be based at any of the longhaul aircraft bases, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane on most likely the A330 or 787 (unless you win the lottery and get a 380 spot).

Regardless of where you choose to live you will be expected to be at your base ready to operate as required under the award. As an S/O and it's a flying duty, that usually means ready to do a walkaround, participate as required pre-flight and be sufficiently rested to jump into a front seat at around 20,000ft on climb for up to 6 or 7 hours - assuming it's a longer sector. Most often though, you'll get the first break and do the latter 6 or 7 hours before top of descent (on 3-pilot sectors). As IsDon says, how you make that work is up to you. Most are making it work, but it only takes a few who wont, to change the current documented 'Commuting Guidelines' into 'Commuting Rules'.

If you don't feel that's for you, you think you can manipulate the system to your advantage or you have other interests that are more important than being fit for duty as required, withdraw your application now as you may still get a gig but your colleagues will soon tire of your attitude.

If you have enough enthusiasm to tackle that, then come on in, the water's great!! :ok:

Spoken as a commuter for 29 years.

C441 great post! Can you confirm Qantas has an official “commuting guideline” document? If so, can you provide more detail? It would be great for those on hold going forward with life plans. Cheers!

[C441]

There are a few documents relating to Fatigue including a very generalised 'Commuting Guidelines' document but it adds little to what has been discussed in the last few days here and elsewhere. It essentially provides you with some thoughts that you need to consider and how to best ensure you're fit after commuting to your base for a duty:
Some of the many considerations include:
Where and when am I going to get some sleep?
Do I need to commute to my base the night before, even if it's just for a standby?
Do I have a backup plan if my commuting flight is cancelled, delayed or is suddenly full due to disruptions,
Should I look for a commuter pad with some other pilots or do I have others I can stay with?…..

Qantas do not formally restrict any commuting at your own expense and most commuters are fairly conservative in their approach.
Have I ever missed a duty in 29 years of commuting? No, but I've come close a couple of times when the 'proverbial has hit the fan', but that can happen driving to work too. Qantas are not unreasonable if you've made every reasonable effort to get to work no matter where you are coming from.

Commuting's doable to and from just about anywhere but you need to plan ahead.

[Lezzeno]

Maybe RD is best placed to answer that one.

No IsDon you are the one who made the statement. I am curious as to whether it is based on fact or just an attempt to denigrate someone who has a different view to you.

[Rated De]

I understand you not getting it, you don't have a frame of reference.

As Qantas is heavily recruiting, some new hire pilots might consider commuting cross continent. It is important to understand the difference between opinion, personal experience and regulatory issues.

Irrespective of the cheapness of the seat in which one sits the 'frame of reference' is provided by two key insights:

The UK CAA and the British Airways response to fatigue mitigation
AIPA's documented concerns with respect to new TOD limits and their implications.


With respect to point 1, the UK is also a signatory to ICAO Annex 6. That the provisions relate to a dual responsibility to mitigate fatigue, may perhaps explain, why British Airways have acted. It doesn't look a cookie cutter response, it seems a risk averse and logical position to adopt.

. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

Unfortunately, referring to point 2 above, neither science nor indeed your own association (AIPA) considers your strategy is optimal.
Thank you to your colleagues for providing a frame of reference. This below is reproduced from AIPA submission regarding changes to CAO 48.1

Sleep Pressure"There is ample scientific evidence going back to the 1990s that recognises that, in the absence of drugs, people do not sleep when there is no biological readiness for sleep. While the SPC suggests that FCMs can plan their sleep pre-flight, that approach is problematic. It is not clear which FCMs CASA suggests should sign-on sufficiently fatigued to be able to sleep immediately after top of climb, even if that compromises their usefulness in the event of an earlier emergency or the Captain’s discretion to operationally determine the allocation of in-flight rest.In any event, the original 2013 Instrument tables reflected that start time was an important factor for all FCMs that could not be offset by the presence of an in-flight rest option. No valid scientific argument has been proposed by either the operators or CASA to abandon CASA’s earlier approach to this issue. "

A 2240 Sydney time departure, having woken on the East Coast in the morning, even with in-flight rest will not mitigate fatigue.
Further, your association considers the degradation of crew rest 'due commercial imperative' to be a further reason why fatigue cannot be mitigated in-flight, stating;

Quality of in-flight rest
CASA needs to get serious about setting and maintaining standards for crew rest facilities, rather than allowing operators to self-regulate according to their “business needs”. There are plenty of real world examples of sub-standard facilities, some of which are due to inadequate design and many due to inadequate control of the surrounding cabin environment. Importantly, the external environment effects such as airflow noise and turbulence can also prevent the FCM from gaining all of the benefits of in-flight rest.


As a superior driver, perhaps the sharp bend can be handled at 120km/h. The legislation considers that the best way is to write rules so everybody gets around the bend safely, and thus prescribe a lower speed limit.

[Capt Fathom]

People are kidding themselves if they think it is OK to be awake all day, commute across the country, then work on the theory they will get a rest break early in their tour of duty.

They are putting their passengers and their work mates lives at risk!

It is total self indulgence.

[blow.n.gasket]

Come on Capt Fathom , have you any experience with commuting prior to ULR ops ?
What would be more fatiguing, be awake all day , commute across the country ( and have a nice nap on the flight over ) ,or , be awake all day , and drive a 2-3 hrs commute plus to sign on ?
Which would be the more fatigue generating pre duty scenario ?
This by all means , is a can of worms in the making , no doubt about it !
How do you legislate for something so variable in its make up ?
There is no one rule fits all in this case !
I am , however , in total agreement with a Legislated minimum standard of crewrest for ULR ops .
My suggestion would be similar to what’s on the Qantas 747’s , toilet and bunk on the flightdeck side of the security door !

[Capt Fathom]

This by all means , is a can of worms in the making , no doubt about it !
Your words, not mine.

[Rated De]

Come on Capt Fathom , have you any experience with commuting prior to ULR ops ?

No one does.
Would anybody spend three hours in traffic in Perth?

[C441]

Oh and an addition commuter guideline.
If you're going to pax from east coast to west and operate, it's probably a good idea to choose a flight that has a better than even chance of you getting a Business class seat.
5 hours in a middle economy seat on a 737 between some (less than hygenic, talkative, aggressive……) people is not particularly conductive to restful relaxation before a long tour of duty. :{

[High_To_Low]

Any idea as to which fleet is taking over JNB/SCL next year and when SYD 787 base is expected to officially open?

[dragon man]

Any idea as to which fleet is taking over JNB/SCL next year and when SYD 787 base is expected to officially open?

I think Sydney base will open in April next year and I suspect it will be with another RIN on the 747. The 747 is supposedly doing SCL/JNB/TKY until the end, however there is now talk of a second Perth to Europe service on the 787 so I don’t understand where they are going to find enough airframes to cover the 747 flying. Additionally they think the 380 will go to Haneda but the Japanese have said no, Korean and Asiana have been trying to get it in there for 2 years unsuccessfully. Suffice to say it’s pregnant with possibilities.

[mmmbop]

People are kidding themselves if they think it is OK to be awake all day, commute across the country, then work on the theory they will get a rest break early in their tour of duty.

They are putting their passengers and their work mates lives at risk!

It is total self indulgence.

What stops a Management Pilot spending the day in the office then operating a flight from Sydney to Bangkok? Nothing.

What stops a Management Pilot spending the day in the office and operating Sydney to LAX, or Melbourne to LAX? Nothing.

But hey......a pilot gets up late after sleeping in their own bed, jumps on a jet, has a meal, watches a movie, reads a book, has a nap, catches up with a friend/colleague and then operates a ULR flight and suddenly everybody has an expert opinion on how it is wrong and "putting lives at risk."

What stops a pilot from living on a farm, spending the entire day in the fields or doing mechanical work then driving 2-3 hours and doing a ULR flight? Or a pilot living in Newcastle, spending the day in their lawnmower business, then driving 2-3 hours and operating SYD-LAX? Or a pilot living in Lismore running their Macadamia Farm and then driving to BNE to operate to SFO? Or a pilot living in Melbourne spending all day looking after their challenging toddler, while their partner is at work, then operating a flight to LAX or SFO?

Nothing.

I know who is going to turn up to work feeling more rested.

A no paxing rule before a ULR flight is a completely ludicrous and ill-thought idea that has no merit. Why don't you contact CASA and tell them that EVERY pilot should be wearing a sleeping/activity monitoring device which is then checked at sign on, and if the pilot hasn't turned completely rested for any flight then they are stood down - irrespective of whether it's SH, LH or ULR flying? Maybe we should be getting CASA to write into the rules a maximum travelling time of 30 mins by road in order to be deemed fit to fly? No? Don't agree? To hard to achieve in Sydney? Won't that throw the cat amongst the pigeons. How many pilots would be cleared to operate then? The people who are stupidly, with absolutely no experience in the matter, commenting about paxing before a flight need to really consider what they are spruking. The pilot has the responsibility of confirming whether they are fit to fly. Why is that nobody questions the other examples that I have given? We all know that those things have and do occur.

Idealistic twaddle, with zero merit.

[dragon man]

The posts regarding management pilots above is incorrect I think you will find , CASA decreed that office time prior to a flight was included in the tour of duty.

[Chris2303]

The posts regarding management pilots above is incorrect I think you will find , CASA decreed that office time prior to a flight was included in the tour of duty.

And the flights mentioned are generally midday departures

[AviatoR21]

For someone with a start date within the next 6 months, could someone give a realistic indicator of promotion and SO salaries? Some people say its impossible to support a family on single income especially being an SO but what about 737 pay? I am interested in Perth base opportunities.

[crosscutter]

For someone with a start date within the next 6 months, could someone give a realistic indicator of promotion and SO salaries? Some people say its impossible to support a family on single income especially being an SO but what about 737 pay? I am interested in Perth base opportunities.


OK...I’ll flog the dead horse to save your lazy ass from looking thru the thread. Promotion has been very quick but there will be loads of people in front of you in 6 months. Wanting Perth will help your cause but no guarantee...see above.

737 will see you on 180k which is far more than 787 SO.

To make you feel better, the next training year vacancies are less than a month away from being advertised. So we will all get to see the huge movement in and out of the 737 ... once more.

Tough decisions I know. I’m sure you’ll find a way like everyone else. It would be a shame to make decisions based on short term fuzzies. (Imagine picture of concrete and cup)

[Capt Fathom]

There was a time when no one cared that much about what the salaries were going to be. If you wanted a particular job, you applied! That must indicate there are plenty of choices out there now?

[AviatoR21]

Crosscutter, thank you for your feedback. I have read this thread in its entirety and I was just gathering info on current, as in 2019 promotion opportunities. Tough decision has been made hence why I applied, I need to be a bit realistic as I will be taking a huge paycut to be back in Oz. So, ground schools forecast every month I presume? Maybe ill be better off getting on the earliest one ASAP.

[crosscutter]

In a month we will all know how substantial the next FY training will be.

I would imagine a person relocating, with a young family, on a single income 787 SO wage to be a challenge. I mean that.

The demographic at Qantas means that even if the music stops (and it always does) movement should still occur which should be some relief. If you were an involuntary SO for more than a couple of years I’d be very surprised.

As for the 787 SO wage including allowances...I’m not sure exactly but I suspect around 125k first year? Someone will pipe up if I’m off the mark.

Good luck.

[Tuner 2]

787 year 1 S/O = ~124k including STACR at planning divisor plus 20-30k in allowances.
787 year 4 S/O = ~133k including STACR at planning divisor plus 20-30k in allowances.

[Tuner 2]

Depends on days worked and destinations. AUD 295 per 24 hours in all the 787 overseas ports and don't forget ODTA/ADTA - approx $65 and $30 per day each. I'd say 15k would be conservative but allowances will obviously vary.

[cqd]

Do you have to pay tax on these allowances or not?

[C441]

Do you have to pay tax on these allowances or not?

In short, yes in most cases on a small portion. The allowance is based on the ATO allowable figure but calculated slightly differently, leading to a small amount above the ATOs allowance which is taxable. In most cases it’s less than 10% of the total allowance.

[vIrot8]

I’m wondering if anyone would happen to know whether or not Qantas is planning to interview or advertise for externals this year, or ever again directly into Mainline? I’ve heard a rumour that they plan to only hire internally from within the group from their subsidiaries. The reason I am asking is to figure out my next career move and whether or not to hold out for Mainline to advertise for externals or join one of their subsidiaries. Any info will be greatly appreciated!

[Fonz121]

Some people say its impossible to support a family on single income especially being an SO but what about 737 pay? I am interested in Perth base opportunities.

I’m doing it quite comfortably. Single income, couple of kids (both in daycare) couple of mortgages. Still maintain a decent lifestyle. But I guess everyone has a different definition of what a good lifestyle is.

Just got to watch those split dinner bills when away :)

edit it to say that’s on a 787 SO wage

[ExtraShot]

And if people are going to add Super and allowances to those figures, why not chuck in a value for your hotel accommodations, your home transport, crew meals, etc, etc?

Perhaps just quoting the Taxable Gross is best, that’s what people use to pay their bills and live on, and it’s what will more accurately represent hours worked.

[skysook]

The numbers quoted here are way under the odds

The 787 SOs are grossing between 170 to 190 k per year

Staff travel is given early for Perth base & some kind of cash allowance

Don't believe the "it's not what it used to be" nonsense the QF pilots are all doing very nicely

$180k would be top 2 or 3 or 4 % of the income group in Australia it ain't all bad

& guys have got that with 1200 hours and just a couple of years in the work force


Can you please elaborate on the early staff travel for Perth base? I thought it was minimum 6 months (from start date) for everyone?

[bulldog_pirate]

Can you please elaborate on the early staff travel for Perth base? I thought it was minimum 6 months (from start date) for everyone?

Staff travel starts after training is completed for 787SO’s that are Perth based and are Commuting. Not sure exactly how that is determined(address in contact details or specific request required). It is a special clause for just the above.

[High_To_Low]

Is that Tax free?

[skysook]

Staff travel starts after training is completed for 787SO’s that are Perth based and are Commuting. Not sure exactly how that is determined(address in contact details or specific request required). It is a special clause for just the above.

Thanks Bulldog!

Whilst on topic. Any truth to this “cash allowance” for Perth base that some guys have mentioned?

Cheers

[Change Management]

170k?! Tell em he’s dreaming...

Not even close to that. Expect 130. But remember, you’re on training wage before that.

[Aviatrix91]

Thanks Bulldog!

Whilst on topic. Any truth to this “cash allowance” for Perth base that some guys have mentioned?

Cheers


No that is incorrect, I believe that is being confused with the initial training allowances which is applicable to anyone who is not based or resides in Sydney. There are two options, the first is the company pay for and organise transport and accomodation throughout training and the the second, you can elect to get a lump sum payment and you organise it all yourself

[bulldog_pirate]

Thanks Bulldog!

Whilst on topic. Any truth to this “cash allowance” for Perth base that some guys have mentioned?

Cheers

no problems. I’m not aware of any allowances that are 787 SO specific. The training allowance response to your question seems to be about right.

Cheers

[ANC001]

Are there 330 pilot bases in BNE and PER? I expect so but have heard two different things.

[SandyPalms]

Yes, but PER doesn’t have a Second Officer base.

[ANC001]

Yes, but PER doesn’t have a Second Officer base.

Thanks, that also explains the inconsistency of what I have been told.

Cheers

[Ladloy]

Any rumours that it will be open to external candidates any time soon?

[Aviatrix91]

Any rumours that it will be open to external candidates any time soon?

There is no internal whispers so this is all crystal ball stuff but I hazard a guess at probably not before this time next year just by looking at the ones coming through. There are still people from the 2016 recruitment drive coming through on courses

[cqd]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to stay for training in Sydney? Starting late July. Thanks!

[spondonicle]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to stay for training in Sydney? Starting late July. Thanks!

You can generally find good deals on the airport hotels if you book far enough in advance. Otherwise find a classmate to buddy up with and rent a two-bedroom apartment, you can save a bit of money and I've heard the Meriton is quite good. All depends on how much you're willing to fork out.

[HOOROO]

Hi Guys/Gals, have read through the whole thread hoping to find an answer to a recruiting question but definitely hasn’t been asked. The min requirements state “Australian CPL and have passed all ATPL subjects”. I came through the Jetstar Cadetship quite a few years ago and gained all CAA NZ ATPL subjects, not CASA.
Does anybody know if your application would get knocked back for having CAA NZ ATPL subjects as it doesn’t actually state CASA ATPL subjects.
I emailed QANTAS pilot recruitment with this question and got a very confusing email back that didn’t answer my question at all.
Thanks in advance

[muffman]

You need the Australian ATPL subjects. I know of somebody who went through the QantasLink recruitment process (which is very similar) and made it to the documentation check on the assessment day before anyone realised they did not have Australian ATPLs. The process ended there.

[HOOROO]

You need the Australian ATPL subjects. I know of somebody who went through the QantasLink recruitment process (which is very similar) and made it to the documentation check on the assessment day before anyone realised they did not have Australian ATPLs. The process ended there.

Thanks muffman, time to get my ATPL and TTMRA it I think

[HOOROO]

I’ve also heard a rumour recently that internal applications may be opening up again soon. Does anyone have any information or knowledge of this? Much appreciated in advance.

[HappyBandit]

I’ve also heard a rumour recently that internal applications may be opening up again soon. Does anyone have any information or knowledge of this? Much appreciated in advance.
Word on the street is possibly August or September for EOI.

[SOPS]

Sorry RD but you have absolutely no idea what you’re on about. Don’t know if you’ve ever been a long haul pilot, as you seem to keep your cards close to your chest, but this, to me, seems a lot like someone heckling from the cheap seats.

I actually fly this PER-LHR sector. I’ve tried lots of different options including coming over the day before. For this particular sector, which departs early evening, it works best, for me, to spend a night in my own bed. Get up when I wake up, catch the early afternoon flight to Perth, have a couple of hours to iron a shirt and grab a bite to eat, then go to work. I don’t care if I have the first break, or second. It doesn’t matter as I either have first break and doze, or second break and have a solid four hour sleep. I actually find that I’m arriving in London ready to start the day. I don’t even feel like I need to sleep immediately after getting to the hotel.

What seems to escape some people is that this aircraft flies for 18 hours before arriving in London. You should plan to rest on board. Get a solid four hours sleep in the crew rest and I feel I’m arriving in London relatively fresh. The mindset here is that people should be as fresh as they would be when your average office worker arrives at there desk at 9am after 9 hours sleep in their own bed. This is not possible when your flying back of the clock. What office worker spends 18 solid hours at their desk without sleep? If they do then they’d be in absolutely no state to drive home, let alone land an aeroplane. Add to that a back of the clock roster and it’s imperative that you plan a sleep on board. The best way to achieve that is to plan to sleep, as best you can, when your body clock wants you to sleep. That means being ready to sleep 4-8 hours into this 18 hour sector. By flying over on the day of the flight I find I can achieve this. Fly over on the day before and I can’t. I’d be more than happy explaining this to “His Honour”.

Some airlines, Emirates is one, have an operating crew and a relief crew. The relief crew are actually encouraged to turn up tired. They are expected to take the first break so it would be pointless turning up fresh as a daisy and not be able to sleep. Qantas has Second Officers so this won’t work. So some latitude must be allowed to achieve your own balance.

I guess the takeout from this is that crew rest is individual. What works for some, might not work for others. By taking BAs cookie cutter approach by banning staff travel on the day of operating would actually make matters a lot more stressful for everyone, especially those who find paxing on the day works best for them. The best way is undoubtedly what Qantas presently does. Leave it up to the individual to make up their own mind on what works best for them. Unfortunately, rules will probably be forced upon us because desk bound self appointed experts think they know better.

Try rolling up into Dubai less than 12 hours before any duty. Tea with no biscuits will be the result. An EK can monitor ALL arrivals through passport control!!

[Thumb War]

Try rolling up into Dubai less than 12 hours before any duty. Tea with no biscuits will be the result. An EK can monitor ALL arrivals through passport control!!

If this thread was about joining Emirates your post would be relevant.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Try rolling up into Dubai less than 12 hours before any duty. Tea with no biscuits will be the result. An EK can monitor ALL arrivals through passport control!!

Lets not use EK as an example of how to fairly treat staff. :ugh:

[MajorLemond]

So has anyone heard anything recently about the current recruitment situation? I know some guys who did the medical + psych months ago but not a peep at this stage.

[normanton]

Ground schools are full for the rest of the year.

No more are planned until at least middle 2020. If that does eventuate, you are probably looking at recruitment starting up again early 2020. By this stage all the initial applications who were unsuccessful back in 2017 will be allowed back in for another try, so it will be as competitive as ever.

[disgruntled_]

Has anyone been allocated a training spot from September onwards? No one on the hold file I know has heard of anyone getting a September onwards spot but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened?

[A320 Flyer]

I know of someone starting in September

[Sparrows.]

Has anyone been allocated a training spot from September onwards? No one on the hold file I know has heard of anyone getting a September onwards spot but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened?

Yes, Sep, Oct and Nov

[Titan Slave]

Yes, Sep, Oct and Nov

Internal or external?

[Sparrows.]

Internal or external?

Oct internal. Sep and Nov both.

[mattandy]

Hi all, does anyone know when QF will put a call out for SYD Base Domestic Crew? I’m ex long haul with another airline and have been out of the game for about 7 years. Does anyone know anything?

Many thanks

[Wizofoz]

Hi all, does anyone know when QF will put a call out for SYD Base Domestic Crew? I’m ex long haul with another airline and have been out of the game for about 7 years. Does anyone know anything?

Many thanks

Are you talking pilot or FA? They don't direct hire into the 737- it's via a stint as SO on long-haul.

[Aviatrix91]

Hi all, does anyone know when QF will put a call out for SYD Base Domestic Crew? I’m ex long haul with another airline and have been out of the game for about 7 years. Does anyone know anything?

Many thanks

So QF only recruit directly into long haul. They will never advertise on the 737 because it is against the EBAs. Having said that, on commencing a course on the 787 or 330, presently, you could expect to transfer to the short haul within 6months. It obviously has a lot to do with seniority and what bases you are happy to move to, for instance guys happy to move to Perth could pick up a 737 spot in their first few weeks joining the company. SYD is more of a senior base so you could be waiting a lot longer

[rep]

So the latest update as of today says all SO courses for Sep/Oct/Nov have now been cancelled in order to focus all training resources on FO and Captain upgrades.

I doubt they will have a course in December, so maybe early 2020 for the next SO ground schools.

[MajorLemond]

So the latest update as of today says all SO courses for Sep/Oct/Nov have now been cancelled in order to focus all training resources on FO and Captain upgrades.

I doubt they will have a course in December, so maybe early 2020 for the next SO ground schools.


Yep, I think it's going to be a very long wait.

[CurtainTwitcher]

This post may be waaaay off base, I might be reading some sort of pattern into randomness, but what the hell, I'll speculate on the Douglas R. Hofstadter / Escher negative space "There exist formal systems whose negative space (set of non-theorems) is not the positive space (set of theorems) of any formal system" that posts #2446 (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/584827-qantas-recruitment-57.html#post10503733) & #2247 (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/584827-qantas-recruitment-57.html#post10504605) leave anyway.

The speculation is this. There is trouble with crewing the 737 for First Officers, particularly out of the East Coast. There is also a problem with Qantas being able to recruit directly to the 737, every pilot must be employed initially as a Second Officer Under Training (SOT). However, if one looks very closely at the Qantas EBA9 (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/agreements/fwa/ae415325.pdf), one notes a SOT pay is $6,545 per 56 days or approx $42,700 pa. A first year 737 FO could expect around between double & triple that number.

Therefore, if an offer of employment is made to a recruit, on the basis of becoming a B787 SOT, without a course Second Officer course date until 2020 (all initial recruits should be assigned to the 787 anyway), they could expect to languish on $42K based in SYD as an office gopher for an extended period of time. However, if the immediate possibility of a 737 FO slot becomes available and the recruit actively bids for that position, they may well be able to start a 737 course on day two of employment, For those that have their heart set on being and SO only initially, and they renege on bidding for the 737 in return for an offer of employment, then it is a poorly paid flying position doing ground duties for quiet some time as there won't be any 787 SO course for a while.

In short, an offer of employment is likely to be made to those applicants with the requirements to become a 737 FO in any base, who indicate they would immediately & actively bid for a 737 FO position once employed, there is an embedded penalty (a significant period as an SOT) for those who choose to exercise their right to not bid once employed.

However, just speculation on my behalf, consistent with the known facts and limitations. Quite a creative & diabolical solution to their problems if it is becomes reality.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x293/a06x13_bird_fish_9a0a5092e6ebb54f33e3b7a880d317a36384922e.jp g

[kjvmw]

What are the requirements to bid for an 737 FO position?

[CurtainTwitcher]

What are the requirements to bid for an 737 FO position?
CPL with credits in all ATPL subjects is the only hard and fast requirement. There would also need to be an assessment of previous experience to be deemed suitable. Bare minimum single pilot time is not going to be enough, multicrew of Dash8 size, LHS time or significant RHS time would cut it.

[Ladloy]

So hearing whispers of external applicants on hold files potentially for 2.5-3 years and no more external recruitment for quite some time. Is this true?

[crosscutter]

No ground schools for the rest of the year at least.

The focus is on Internal training in preparation for the next 787 arrivals...and subsequent 747 shakedown.

[Blueskymine]

And there it is.

Its time now to get the seat you want, because the music will stop and when it stops at QF, it stops.

[ANCDU]

And there it is.

Its time now to get the seat you want, because the music will stop and when it stops at QF, it stops.


and it’s usually stops suddenly ...and for a long time!

[Sparrows.]

No ground schools for the rest of the year at least.

The focus is on Internal training in preparation for the next 787 arrivals...and subsequent 747 shakedown.



There’s a ground school in December.

Only September, October and November were pushed back. Gives them some time to get ahead on this years training allocations because they are currently over supplied with 330 and 787 SO’s. No point training more SO’s when the training resources can be better used on training other ranks that are actually short. Hardly all doom and gloom.

[dragon man]

And there it is.

Its time now to get the seat you want, because the music will stop and when it stops at QF, it stops.


It will all be the fault of the pesky pilots when it’s stops because they won’t sell their soles to the devil to allow him to order the 777/350 for Sunrise.

[skysook]

600 retirements yet to happen over the next 5 years. Can’t hear the music stopping just yet.

[Keg]

787 S/O courses planned December and every month to the end of the FY.

Of course crew retirements may keep things ticking along beyond that albeit at a lower rate and more aeroplane orders will see things going at a fair clip.

Personally I reckon that QF are short of airframes and won’t be able to cover the planned flying when the 744s go in just over 12 months time. I reckon at least 4 more 787s are needed to cover that or keep the 744s longer. Who knows though. Probably aren’t are any firm plans either way yet.

[High_To_Low]

Hi Keg,

Are those courses likely to go ahead or could possibly be pushed back again as they are over stocked in the SO ranks?

Also, are all the courses going forward likely to be B787 or will there be some A330 slots in there as well?

Thanks Keg

[Gligg]

Anyone in the know able to comment on the medium/long term plan on external hiring? ie would there still be external hiring once the in-house flight schools are running at full steam?

[CurtainTwitcher]

Gligg, if you look very carefully at the word used, you will able to decode QF's intent: Qantas Group Pilot Academy In partnership with FTA (https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/our-company/pilot-academy.html). Everything you need to understand is on that page, you just need to consider the inferences.

Group is the operative word. Within the group, the biggest shortage is on the DASH-8's. Graduates from the Academy could reasonably expect to go to DASH land to gain sufficient experience to go into the RHS of a B737 or an A32x. That is the current pipeline, and I would expect it to continue fore the foreseeable future.

Externals will still be important to moderate the flow out of the regionals, particularly if you have experience to enable direct to the 737 RHS . QF have to throw a bone to the regionals through mainline opportunities in a reasonable time so they don't leave the group once they have experience, but they have to balance the attrition rate to be able to keep the aircraft flying, which I believe is quite a challenge.

[Rated De]

Gligg, if you look very carefully at the word used, you will able to decode QF's intent: Qantas Group Pilot Academy In partnership with FTA (https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/our-company/pilot-academy.html). Everything you need to understand is on that page, you just need to consider the inferences.

Group is the operative word. Within the group, the biggest shortage is on the DASH-8's. Graduates from the Academy could reasonably expect to go to DASH land to gain sufficient experience to go into the RHS of a B737 or an A32x. That is the current pipeline, and I would expect it to continue fore the foreseeable future.

Externals will still be important to moderate the flow out of the regionals, particularly if you have experience to enable direct to the 737 RHS . QF have to throw a bone to the regionals through mainline opportunities in a reasonable time so they don't leave the group once they have experience, but they have to balance the attrition rate to be able to keep the aircraft flying, which I believe is quite a challenge.

Quite right CT.

A little bit of product placement (The Qantas reference) is the bait...The fine print tells a different story...The switch sees the newly indebted graduate at any of the increasing number of entities flying derelict machines for less money than the glossy brochure intimated.

Caveat emptor.

[Gligg]

Quite right CT.

A little bit of product placement (The Qantas reference) is the bait...The fine print tells a different story...The switch sees the newly indebted graduate at any of the increasing number of entities flying derelict machines for less money than the glossy brochure intimated.

Caveat emptor.

Derelict machines for less money? Doesn’t sound much different than the G.A.route!

[dr dre]

Quite right CT.

A little bit of product placement (The Qantas reference) is the bait...The fine print tells a different story...The switch sees the newly indebted graduate at any of the increasing number of entities flying derelict machines for less money than the glossy brochure intimated.

Caveat emptor.

Is there a better option?

Airline job logging multi-crew hours from day one. Onto a 6 figure salary quite quickly. Employed within Australia's major airline group. Quicker to to command, major airline or jet employment.

Alternative: No guaranteed work upon graduation. Multitude of casual or non permanent GA jobs to begin with. Spend an indefinite number of years there before getting into a major airline group. Any saving on training costs would be quickly offset by lower wages. Fly aircraft that are definitely more derelict than option A.

A quick look around shows the cost of an average CPL in Australia roughly about $70k, IR about $20k, and ATPL theory and MCC about $5k each.

From the FTA website it's about $125k from zero to CPL, IR, ATPL and MCC as part of their Academy course.

Not too much of an extra expense for a more defined career path IMHO.

[dr dre]

You haven’t read the fine print if you think that’s the case. Most probably will. Some/ many definitely won’t.


Nothing is guaranteed in life. Don't meet the standards on the course? Not getting through. No argument there.

Economy in the gurgler upon graduation? Probably won't get employed, but then GA employment will be in trouble too.

Still a better prospect than a random flying school with nothing really guaranteed at the end, at least there's a more defined path here. And I would probably guess a higher priority in employment for Academy graduates than those who aren't. If not all of those who graduate the academy have a position within the group upon graduation then that means there's a minuscule chance for non Academy graduates.

[Climb150]

A quick look around shows the cost of an average CPL in Australia roughly about $70k, IR about $20k, and ATPL theory and MCC about $5k each.

From the FTA website it's about $125k from zero to CPL, IR, ATPL and MCC as part of their Academy course.

Not too much of an extra expense for a more defined career path IMHO. If you don't go to a big money grab school you should be able to get a CPL with NVFR for $60k or less. MEIR is about $20k and ATPL about $5k if you mostly self study (it is possible). No need to waste money on an MCC. So $85k versus $120k isn't something I can rationalize by thinking that a big name school will help you with a job. It won't and can sometimes hurt you as some employers have bad experiences with sausage factory grads

[Rated De]

Still a better prospect than a random flying school with nothing really guaranteed at the end, at least there's a more defined path here. And I would probably guess a higher priority in employment for Academy graduates than those who aren't. If not all of those who graduate the academy have a position within the group upon graduation then that means there's a minuscule chance for non Academy graduates.

Assumptions being what they are, would suggest that any prospective applicant carefully check the fine print.

[NFPAR]

Does anyone know if the Academy is actually taking people with prior flying experience?

The FAQs on the website explicitly state that they will consider applicants with licences, but I’m yet to hear of a licence holder actually getting a spot.

[ThunderstormFactory]

All Qantas Group airlines hiring bar mainline. So much for the music stopping soon as previously suggested in this thread.

[Rated De]

All Qantas Group airlines hiring bar mainline. So much for the music stopping soon as previously suggested in this thread.

Little Napoleon and his bunch of carpet baggers would not have spent a Red cent on anything related to pilots unless there is a supply issue long term.

There is, its name is demographics.

[dragon man]

You mean this.

https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/business-military/united-launches-pilot-recruitment-program/

[Beer Baron]

Rated De, you opined previously regarding the academy...
This announcement appears to be a similar pattern.
A thought bubble, no research, poor strategy and shockingly executed.
It will be pushed with weasel words into the future.
So given they said it would start in 2019 and it has, would you concede that you were wrong??

[CurtainTwitcher]

Little Napoleon and his bunch of carpet baggers would not have spent a Red cent on anything related to pilots unless there is a supply issue business model long term.

There is, its name is demographics.

Sorry to correct you Rated De, Joyce does nothing is done without a business plan, he is a startup junkie. I would suggest the strategy here is to milk pilot training as a business by leveraging off the Qantas brand reputation. Expect them to attempt to scale this beyond what is required for the the group, I could even envisage offshore "Qantas Training Academy Centre of Excellence" training being set up in Asia.

Don't get me wrong, demographics come into play, but there will be more to this.

[Derfred]

Sorry to correct you Rated De, Joyce does nothing is done without a business plan, he is a startup junkie. I would suggest the strategy here is to milk pilot training as a business by leveraging off the Qantas brand reputation. Expect them to attempt to scale this beyond what is required for the the group, I could even envisage offshore "Qantas Training Academy Centre of Excellence" training being set up in Asia.

Don't get me wrong, demographics come into play, but there will be more to this.

You are completely on it, CT.

This ain’t a thought-bubble.

If you can significantly control or influence pilot training (or have a monopoly on it), and maybe even run it at a profit, you not only control supply, but you get to control those who even commence pilot training, let alone finish it.

You get to interview them twice, once before training, and once again before employment, gaining a much greater understanding of their worth, and you get surveillance of them during training. With that surveillance you really get to know them - not just aptitude, but you get to cull those who complain when the tea-room runs out of milk - they’ll be your future union-leaders.

You also get to control things like gender balance.

[Ladloy]

You are completely on it, CT.

This ain’t a thought-bubble.

If you can significantly control or influence pilot training (or have a monopoly on it), and maybe even run it at a profit, you not only control supply, but you get to control those who even commence pilot training, let alone finish it.

You get to interview them twice, once before training, and once again before employment, gaining a much greater understanding of their worth, and you get surveillance of them during training. With that surveillance you really get to know them - not just aptitude, but you get to cull those who complain when the tea-room runs out of milk - they’ll be your future union-leaders.

You also get to control things like gender balance.
Didn't work for Rex.

[bding]

Hi everyone,

*long post incoming*
I've read through the previous 50 pages of this thread, took me a while! I didn't really find the answer that I was looking for, but knowing me I probably overlooked it in the 50 pages I read :p

I'm currently 18 and have always wanted to become a pilot for Qantas since I was in kindergarten. When I was 16 I disregarded the dream job of a pilot and I really can't remember why I did, I think it was because mum wanted me to stay on the ground if I'm to be honest! So I moved onto something else that was in aviation which was Air Traffic Control, but of course a year later I got rid of that for some reason (but this time I don't know why). Then I moved onto IT in uni (which I'm doing now), even with my GPA of 7, I started to think about the Qantas Group Pilot Academy, long story short I *think* I have my eyes back on aviation again.

I've read a few conflicting thoughts on the actual academy throughout the 50 pages that I have read, some say it's just a gimmick and you'll end up no where whereas some say that it would be good. People say that you should get into piloting whilst your young for seniority (or just get into the airline you want your career at whilst your young), but is it just gonna give me a huge debt and no job at all? Considering that it'll cost me somewhere around $125,000, which I can loan, does it even qualify me for direct entry into Qantas? I was looking at the requirements for direct entry (either as SO or FO) and it seemed higher than what you actually get in the academy? Could someone help answer that? The academy would probably be the best option for me, I don't have the money to train through a flight school in my local area.

I've also read someone said that it is Qantas Group Pilot Academy, so does that mean QantasLink and Jetstar too?

I've read heaps of things online about the life as a pilot, and I understand that this is a Qantas recruitment thread, and whilst I'd be doing it for the love of planes since I have been young and not for the money at all, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this thread about the pay of Capt/FO/SO? I've gone through the EBA of Qantas but it's all dutch to me :p

All in all I just really want to know is it worth it? Will it lead into a career with Qantas or just give me a big debt? FO or SO? Do I just apply for jobs after the academy as I'd be qualified from the academy? I see that I can lead into the Qantas Future Pilot Program from the academy, but they're 'selected' people. I assume you need to be a high performer. Surely the application questions into the academy are just a short amount? They were pretty basic, didn't seem like an application at all! I've gone over the website a million times so I essentially know the whole academy website inside out, but I have applied for an ATC job which I should hear back from this week. What's the way to go? I'll still be waiting for months to hear back from Qantas, but even then, what's their selection process?

I think that's all for now, I'd still have a million things in my mind that I needed to ask but I just can't think of it all right now.

Thanks everyone :)