Qantas Recruitment

[Global Aviator]

ICAO level 6................... :ugh: :O :)

[AviatoR21]

Is anyone going to about anything productive which has relevance to this thread?

[Slippery_Pete]

One Australian airline which had a reasonably successful ICUS program decided to use it as industrial leverage, banning it overnight to pressure FOs into signing a rubbish EBA offer.

Not only did the offer get voted down, now they’re massively short of upgradeable crew as a result.

Stupidity at its finest.

As for the cadet vs non cadet debate, it’s been done to death in PPrune a million times. They both have advantages and disadvantages.

[rep]

Looks like external recruitment has opened up again today.

Good luck to all those applying, with the new minimums it will be just as competitive as before.

It's a long process, but well worth it for those that make the cut!

[Rated De]

Today we’ve opened up pilot recruitment to the broader industry for mainline Second Officer positions, for the second time in nine years.

To support our Group pilot recruitment activity, we’ve decided to hit the road with our pilot recruitment roadshows throughout April. If you know anyone who might like to attend

Anyone holding onto to the Australian exceptionalism as it applies to a pilot shortage may need to re think the validity of their position.

Qantas are short..

[Keg]

The group is short. Mainline isn’t... yet. They will be but another year or two I reckon when the shortage is really biting.

The bigger issue is the model of opening up applications and taking 18 months to process the applicants. In the interim there are a number of great candidates who have already moved on to other airlines.

[bafanguy]

Keg,

Why does it take 18 months to process applicants ?

Any info on how many "competitive" applications the company has on file ?

[Keg]

G’day Bafanguy. Once upon a time Qantas was always open for recruitment. You could submit an application at any time and they’d process you. As a result of people applying when they became qualified (or tired of where they were working) the system was always processing 30-40* applications per month for the 8-16 positions available. (*Not sure of exact numbers).

After not having recruited from January 2009 until August 2016 Qantas opened up applications processing former cadets and letter of intent holders from 2009 in June/ July 2016 as well as both internal and external applicants from about September 2016. There were about 1300 applications to process- not a very big number really considering the 9 year gap- and it’s simply taken until November last year to work through them all.

If Rated De has been forwarded the email then he too has the projected recruitment numbers for 2018. I’d post them but last time I posted information also available to the other 2200 Qantas pilots Flight Ops Management received a call from another department complaining. So sadly someone else will need to post that up. For the same reason I can’t comment on the numbers still on hold.

So if PPRUNERs want the latest info, they’ll have to get to a roadshow (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/qantas-group-pilot-roadshow-tickets-44129364116) that Qantas will be running around the nation.

[morno]

But Keg, will the roadshows just be run by HR numpties churning out their idealism?

Why does Qantas need to do these roadshows? And I noticed the other day that apparently you don’t even need ATPL subjects now!

morno

[maggot]

Yeah, road shows, wtf

[Who stole my meds]

Road show's are usually a sign that they know their aren't enough applicants that are interested in them based on what information is available online so they'll send out the HR types to put a positive spin on things.

[Gligg]

A road show can indicate within 2 minutes of scanning the room(s) how big and how fast the academy setup will need to be.

[Keg]

Gday morno. Note the roadshows are for the group and not mainline specific. So the ‘no ATPL subjects’ alluded to re the roadshow I suspect is targeted toward QLink and/or Network/ JQ. They simply want as many people in the room as possible. Mainline requirements as updated recently on the Qantas website still require ATPL subjects.

As per my previous comments I don’t reckon mainline is going to be short of applicants (this year) so my assessment of these roadshows is that they’re more targeting the other airlines in the group or gauging the level of active interest in the academy as Gligg alludes to.

Worth pointing out too that I’m no longer involved in pilot recruitment so I’ve only my assessment to offer. No inside knowledge to speak of.

[Rated De]

Road show's are usually a sign that they know their aren't enough applicants that are interested in them based on what information is available online so they'll send out the HR types to put a positive spin on things. The battle for relevance is on..Getting HR/IR tentacles out of the Flight Operation takes a lot of undoing
Weasel words aside, Qantas careers have been a stagnant pond, with all growth directed at the 'wedge' they desired JQ to be.

Ever wonder why no other full service airline has a Low Fare Airline of the size of JQ?


There were about 1300 applications to process- not a very big number really considering the 9 year gap- and it’s simply taken until November last year to work through them all.
There are 200 pilots required this year.
There are very few CPL being issued, retirement rates are beginning to bite and again the smartest guys in the room are behind the curve.

[Don Diego]

Trick the newbie into thinking a position at the Link is a Qantas job, that is what the "roadshows" are about.:mad:

[Rated De]

Trick the newbie into thinking a position at the Link is a Qantas job, that is what the "roadshows" are about.

Exactly...

It is amusing watching them do everything except acknowledge that their model of employee relations, of which terms and conditions are a component is a failure...

[*Lancer*]

Rated De,

No other full service airline has a low fare airline the size of Jetstar, because Qantas (and Virgin with Tiger) need to ensure there is no market gap for a third entrant. It's a strategy of protection given the uniqueness of the Australian domestic market and the proportion of profit achievable from this sector.

But back to Qantas pilot recruitment: Good luck to everyone applying!

[Props _are_for_boats]

Trick the newbie into thinking a position at the Link is a Qantas job, that is what the "roadshows" are about.:mad:

It will be interesting to see how many of the qlink pilots actually get into mainline in this next round of interviews...

[greenfields]

The bigger issue is the model of opening up applications and taking 18 months to process the applicants. In the interim there are a number of great candidates who have already moved on to other airlines.

Exactly. Applicants are being placed onto a hold for for longer than 9 months, getting interviews with VB and a job within the month. Good applicants being lost for no reason. The processing times are completely unwarranted.

[Rated De]

Exactly. Applicants are being placed onto a hold for for longer than 9 months, getting interviews with VB and a job within the month. Good applicants being lost for no reason. The processing times are completely unwarranted.

Depends on which point of view..:E

For the eager HR practictioner an endless work cycle requires more resources. More resources mean more staff, more staff mean bigger empires..

Wash, rinse and repeat and one gets an insight into how the west was lost!

Of course the Operating Revenue withers on the vine as flights go uncrewed

[Don Diego]

Props, if the big kahuna at Qlink had his way I guess the answer would be "not many", but he holds no trump cards in the game so mother Q will take what mother Q wants to take and just leave the ever growing mess for him to manage. Interesting EBA approaching.

[Rated De]

but he holds no trump cards in the game so mother Q will take what mother Q wants to take and just leave the ever growing mess for him to manage.

For decades they set pilot groups against each other, they actively stopped progression, promotion and transfer. Whole empires were built on it.

As it unravels it must be amusing to watch them fight among themselves...

[Don Diego]

Sad rather than amusing but then again it has been that way ever since the greasy pole climber of the day made his statement in court.

[startno1]

Any internals started online testing yet?

[maggot]

Next five years, easy

[FogBuster]

Any internals started online testing yet?

Nobody I’ve flown with has yet but I’ve heard second hand that a few here at link have received emails to do it (Numbers range from 12 to 40; prune is for rumours right?). No idea on time frame or anything else of value though.

[KRUSTY 34]

It will be interesting to see how many of the qlink pilots actually get into mainline in this next round of interviews...

A senior Checker from Qlink told me only yesterday that the majority of applicants from his patch for the QF S/O positions, were in fact Check and Training Captains!

Be interesting to see how many of those people they are prepared to let go?

[Jc31]

Internal testing has gone out

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Have you all seen today's Australian, the article about Qantas lobbying for two year visas for (what was) 457 visa pilots to be extended to a minimum of five years.
Tootle pip!!

[Jetdream]

All seems very quiet for this round of applications. Any idea of the numbers they received?

[High_To_Low]

280 + internals - testing closes midnight 15th April

[Jetdream]

Thanks for the info.
How long are they giving people to complete the testing?

[Wiggley]

280 + internals - testing closes midnight 15th April

Does that mean the testing links have gone out the externals? Or is the 15th the closing date for internals?

[Al Barsha South]

Hi anybody knows how big the hold file is. Apparently many guys been waiting over 10"months

[Keg]

Hold file was about 150ish in December '17. They were all expected to be in by August this year. Of course training capacity could have some influence on that.

[logansi]

280 + internals - testing closes midnight 15th April

Would that be considered low? Also approx how many pilots they looking to add for this round of hiring?

[chickoroll]

Approx only 100 from JQ, would of been higher if the cadets had the requirements. Also, being an SO is not everyone’s ideal job so that might also explain a low number across the group.

[cessnapete]

Chickoroll

Why do Australian and some other Asian airlines employ S/O Cruise only pilots in the first place? I can’t think of anything worse or soul destroying, than joining an airline and then only allowed to sit in the cockpit in the cruise, not trusting to carry out takeoffs and landings.
Are the pilots recruited so short on experience, or is it a cost saving exercise in they are paid less than a fully qualified crew member?
All modern jet airliners are designed to be flown with 2 crew, there are no Checklists for a third pilot. (Long Range ops obviously use augmented crew for mandatory rest)
In my Uk airline all new hires fly as fully trained P2 sharing the landings as required. In fact for example Uk to US East coast trips are crewed with only two pilots even on an A380.
Lack of sectors on Long Range trips sometimes requires the odd Sim to keep up recency, but not an insurmountable problem.

[OneDotLow]

S/Os at QF are hired purely for augmented crew flying over longer routes. I guess it’s just the cheapest way to do it and when things are moving, new hires have a chance to get a window seat fairly shortly after joining (some even on day 1).

Chickoroll
Lack of sectors on Long Range trips sometimes requires the odd Sim to keep up recency, but not an insurmountable problem.

I think getting the odd sim is an insurmountable problem at the moment at QF. Qantas has been on the Jetstar back burner for over a decade and they have now found themselves so far behind in crewing numbers and training capacity that they are looking at almost 50% of type ratings being trained externally next year. This year they’ve managed to put 340 pilots through training courses and next year this is forecast to be around 600.

[maggot]

50% offshore?!!

Geeeeesus

I guess that's not part of the transformation budget eh

<Off to adjust my bids>

[chickoroll]

OneDotLow- how are guys getting window seats day 1? Are QF hiring on 737?

[OneDotLow]

In this recent wave of hiring, people have been offered PER 737 FO on day one. Due to the contract, they did need to technically start day one as a trainee SO, but we’re immediately offered an upgrade. My info is that this was primarily offered to pilots with 737 experience. Not technically direct entry to the 737, but not far off it.

[maggot]

Offered open slather to all on day one from what I've heard
Some took it some wanna see something else for a while

Pretty good choice to have

[cessnapete]

Yes same in BA a year or so ago with large recruitment surge, some direct onto 777/787/747/A380. Training capacity swamped and A320 Type Ratings outsourced to Easyjet training company. Lack of Long Haul route training sectors and training Captains, also led to a few months delay as 'Cruise Pilots" with new hires who were recruited direct on the A380.

[ilikecheese]

Anyone know of any other bases being offered to new starters for 737 FO positions? Or only PER at this stage?

[Australopithecus]

PER is the junior base, so there would be gnashing of teeth and rending of garments if a new hire got a prized east coast slot instead of a current pilot.

[ruprecht]

Only PER and only because it’s a junior base, ie people don’t want to move/live there.

ADL is also junior for similar reasons. Some pilots are getting ADL within 12 months.

MEL is a few years.

SYD and BNE are more than that, but with the rapid influx we’re experiencing that will come down.

Of the 35 737 slots awarded last year, I think 2 came from the 380 SO ranks...:E

[ilikecheese]

Cheers thanks for the insight

[Australopithecus]

Of the 35 737 slots awarded last year, I think 2 came from the 380 SO ranks...:E

Which goes to prove that you can fool some people some of the time.

Not easy to entice people into working a lot harder for less money. Unless its a short term preparation for an upcoming widebody F/O job.

[CurtainTwitcher]

MEL is a few years
Latest info is it now a few months. Apparently 787 September 2017 joiner, 2 bid periods online as SO (112 days) and MEL 737 slot.

SYD & BNE are unlikely to be far behind.

[maggot]

PER is the junior base, so there would be gnashing of teeth and rending of garments if a new hire got a prized east coast slot instead of a current pilot.

There were some slots for 737 FO MEL awarded to new hires, or at least very recent hires <3 months in etc

Mostly PER though

[ruprecht]

Latest info is it now a few months. Apparently 787 September 2017 joiner, 2 bid periods online as SO (112 days) and MEL 737 slot.

SYD & BNE are unlikely to be far behind.

Thanks. I had heard that, but was unable to check the numbers. I was having a chat to a 737 Capt who was saying the company is quietly sh!tting themselves about how to crew the 737 in the next few years.

[CurtainTwitcher]

the company is quietly sh!tting themselves about how to crew the 737 in the next few years.
He was a man of understatement!

[SandyPalms]

Bring in the Kiwi’s? That is their answer. But it’s just making things worse. Engagement of the current pilots has diminished due to these decisions.
Reap what you sow��

[ANCDU]

If you take an early 737 FO slot when you are a new hire, get comfy, you are going to be there for a VERY long time, there’s a reason why they are going so junior.

[Hold_Short]

Go over to Jetconnect in New Zealand and you’ll be closer to the east coast of Australia 🇦🇺. 😛

[Jee_Ray]

Out of curiosity, what does an SO make these days and how long are you fetching coffee before you move to the front seat?

[SHVC]

A lot of money, as per previous post. That’s why they would think they would struggle to crew the 737 potentially.

[DirectAnywhere]

Jee Ray, a new joiner on the 787, about 100k. Established crew on the 380/747 could easily earn 2.5 times that amount due to the differences in the contract. This is significantly more than a 737 FO earns who, incidentally, works much harder for the dough in terms of lifestyle and days at work. It’s been an aberration for ever and management wonder why pilots are unwilling to sacrifice both money - a lot of money - and time at home to move into the right hand seat. Most junior east coast wide body FO slot is running at about 15 years seniority.

There have been no promotions for so long at QANTAS that many S/Os are well into their 40s with kids and family commitments and have discovered there are MUCH more important things in life than a 3rd stripe. A number of 737 FOs have recently bid back to the 747 to spend more time with young families. Good luck to them. Management like to talk about “work-life balance” but this is the reality of what it takes to make it happen.

The 787 contract was an attempt to remove the incentive to stay as a SO but, guess what, management couldn’t even get that right. They had the contract in place but couldn’t get their training needs right so they had to bring in new joiners on the 747 and 380, further perpetuating the current system, at least after the new joiners hit 18 months.

Short story, there is no financial or lifestyle incentive whatsoever - in fact it’s negative on both fronts - to move from the back seat on the 747 or 380 to the right seat on a maggot.

It’s even questionable financially whether you would move from a comfy FO spot on the LH types to a 737 command but more pilots seem willing to take that step as it’s a command.

Oh, and all this is before you even consider the need to uproot your family and move to Perth or Adelaide at your own expense to take a pay cut. I think my wife said, “Get f$&ked!” or something similar when I raised the topic for discussion several years ago.

[Jetsbest]

Nailed it!👍... & it’s a problem of the company’s own making.🙄😖

[Rated De]

Nailed it!��... & it’s a problem of the company’s own making.���� It is even more insidious than that; it was by design.

If you carefully review the testimony of Peter Gregg Ex CFO given to a Parliamentary hearing you will see several key phrases.

Specifically 'competitive wage tension across the group' This was a cornerstone strategy in JQ's establishment; control labour unit cost.

Denial of career opportunities and inability to transfer meant JQ was ring fenced and a nice new workforce without that 'polluting' culture (Yes Mr Joyce said that) of mainline pilots.

What was once a proud career, is merely a job.
As we are told, AIPA 'negotiators' are asking pilots in one breath 'what do you want from the new contract negotiation?' and then when given the answer retort, 'what will you give up?'

Seems axiomatic that there is nothing left to give and to restore the balance both remuneration and life balance needs addressing, but whether the union is prepared to do anything remains to be seen.

With no appetite for change, Qantas will quietly establish the Network and Jetconnect narrative as the reason that direct entry recruiting onto the 737 thereby making the contract irrelevant. Of course the 'grown ups' structuring the pilot union defence must know this, right?

[dragon man]

Nailed it!👍... & it’s a problem of the company’s own making.🙄😖

Correct but that’s not how they see it. The evil pilots cost us a fortune in training costs as they stay on the 737 for as little time as possible . The fact that if the 737 rosters could be bought to 15 days a month a lot of the problems would go away.

[Potsie Weber]

Jee Ray, a new joiner on the 787, about 100k. Established crew on the 380/747 could easily earn 2.5 times that amount due to the differences in the contract. This is significantly more than a 737 FO earns who, incidentally, works much harder for the dough in terms of lifestyle and days at work. It’s been an aberration for ever and management wonder why pilots are unwilling to sacrifice both money - a lot of money - and time at home to move into the right hand seat. Most junior east coast wide body FO slot is running at about 15 years seniority.

There have been no promotions for so long at QANTAS that many S/Os are well into their 40s with kids and family commitments and have discovered there are MUCH more important things in life than a 3rd stripe. A number of 737 FOs have recently bid back to the 747 to spend more time with young families. Good luck to them. Management like to talk about “work-life balance” but this is the reality of what it takes to make it happen.

The 787 contract was an attempt to remove the incentive to stay as a SO but, guess what, management couldn’t even get that right. They had the contract in place but couldn’t get their training needs right so they had to bring in new joiners on the 747 and 380, further perpetuating the current system, at least after the new joiners hit 18 months.

Short story, there is no financial or lifestyle incentive whatsoever - in fact it’s negative on both fronts - to move from the back seat on the 747 or 380 to the right seat on a maggot.

It’s even questionable financially whether you would move from a comfy FO spot on the LH types to a 737 command but more pilots seem willing to take that step as it’s a command.

Oh, and all this is before you even consider the need to uproot your family and move to Perth or Adelaide at your own expense to take a pay cut. I think my wife said, “Get f$&ked!” or something similar when I raised the topic for discussion several years ago.


A bold few have ventured beyond the Sydney basin and farther afield than the Southern Highlands or a whining commute from the Sunshine State, and discovered there is actually life in Australia west of the NSW border. Some cannot fully overcome the security of that huge mortgage and commute to these far flung outposts, safe in the knowledge on days off, they can return to the serenity and peacefulness of the Eastern Suburbs or The Shire.

But there are some, who load up the wagon and venture west, modern day explorers, determined to find a life beyond the East Coast. They are dismissed as crazies by the two stripers, who cannot comprehend actually doing something for a living. You would have to be complete nuts to give up the monotonous drudgery of endless back to back LA's and find a place to settle that's not dependent on 30hrs overtime a roster.

Despite the mocking, many of these outcasts have found an inner peace. With their circadian rhythm back in check, they find they can do stuff besides sleep on days off at home. Energised and fitter, they actually leave their suburbs and find they can get to another part of their new city in under an hour. They no longer have to park 1km from an overcrowded beach and pay $5 per hour for the privilege.

The work is fun, the flying varied, busy, but time passes quickly. Conversation strays beyond superannuation balances and investment property values. Far from "head office", there is less gossip and rumours, less angst about management and office politics. At sign-off, they feel they have done something with their day. The bases are smaller, crew somehow friendlier, not as uptight.

Some long for a return to the East Coast. Others live content fulfilled lives.

[Keg]

With no appetite for change, Qantas will quietly establish the Network and Jetconnect narrative as the reason that direct entry recruiting onto the 737 thereby making the contract irrelevant. Of course the 'grown ups' structuring the pilot union defence must know this, right?

Is there a problem recruiting direct to 737 F/O for those who may be willing to take up that offer? Sure the LH contract doesn’t currently permit it but why shouldn’t AIPA and QF facilitate it to the mutual benefit of future employees and Qantas? I’m not suggesting ‘open slather’ but there are a number of mechanisms that can be put in place to manage the situation appropriately.

Gold Potsie! Though the PER 737 crew I run into in PER at 0425 in the morning may dispute the circadian rhythm comment! :D

[ruprecht]

They are dismissed as crazies by the two stripers, who cannot comprehend actually doing something for a living.

Oh I can comprehend it, I just don’t want to do it... :E

[maggot]

Just to clarify for those on the outside lookin in:

Qf 737 FO ain't that bad!

I enjoyed my time there and would happily go back, pending a meteorite to cull some dinosaurs from the list

[Transition Layer]

Potsie...nailed it! :D

Direct Anywhere...spoken like someone who has never been forward of 1A (paxing to MEL for a 24hr slip) in a 737!

[C441]

Training on the 737 is completely different to Long Haul..first of all, is actually training, and secondly, they don't treat F/o's and S/o's like children as they do in Long Haul..

How long since you last did a training course in Longhaul? Which fleet?

There's a bunch of excellent trainers out there (but sadly still a very few who perhaps are there for the wrong reason). Many of our best trainers began that role on the 767 which most agreed had a great training culture.

As a general rule, most of our Longhaul trainers have embraced the new training-emphasised cyclic matrix and carry that over to the line training environment very well.

…..and I haven't been a Trainer for 6 or 7 years.

[DirectAnywhere]

Direct Anywhere...spoken like someone who has never been forward of 1A (paxing to MEL for a 24hr slip) in a 737!

That's not fair. I have paxed on the flight deck once or twice.

I was fortunate enough to take my first promotion in QF after 18 months when such a thing was possible.

As an F/O I am tired, however, of hearing Captains, who were widebody Captains in their late 20s or early 30s, lecture 40 y/o S/Os about why they're living their lives all wrong from an exalted seniority position some 1700 numbers above. One of these Captains recently had the audacity to pull out his iPad and start showing his S/O photos of the multi-million dollar holiday shack he was building and then wondered why they weren't interested.

These S/Os have children in their teens, well established in schools, and wives who work and have careers of their own and Captain X thinks they should up sticks and move to become an F/O, work more and take a pay cut.

These guys are utterly tone deaf to think that such advice is warranted or welcome. They have no idea what the world looks like from a S/O spot after the lost decade and should be sensible enough to keep their thoughts and ideas to themselves or maybe, having seen the consequences of the RIN first hand, I'm just a little more empathetic than others.

Apologies for the thread drift.

[maggot]

Training on the 737 is completely different to Long Haul..first of all, is actually training, and secondly, they don't treat F/o's and S/o's like children as they do in Long Haul..

Completely disagree on all counts.

[IsDon]

Completely disagree on all counts.

Concur Maggot.

My recent experiences of the long haul training system has been very very good.

A great bunch of trainers.

I’ve never experienced the SH training system in Qantas, but I think you would struggle to find a better training environment than the current LH system.

[Transition Layer]

That's not fair. I have paxed on the flight deck once or twice.

I was fortunate enough to take my first promotion in QF after 18 months when such a thing was possible.

As an F/O I am tired, however, of hearing Captains, who were widebody Captains in their late 20s or early 30s, lecture 40 y/o S/Os about why they're living their lives all wrong from an exalted seniority position some 1700 numbers above. One of these Captains recently had the audacity to pull out his iPad and start showing his S/O photos of the multi-million dollar holiday shack he was building and then wondered why they weren't interested.

These S/Os have children in their teens, well established in schools, and wives who work and have careers of their own and Captain X thinks they should up sticks and move to become an F/O, work more and take a pay cut.

These guys are utterly tone deaf to think that such advice is warranted or welcome. They have no idea what the world looks like from a S/O spot after the lost decade and should be sensible enough to keep their thoughts and ideas to themselves or maybe, having seen the consequences of the RIN first hand, I'm just a little more empathetic than others.

Apologies for the thread drift.

For new hires or those with young kids, the lifestyle and job satisfaction on the 737 is surely better than the S/O gig. Sounds like your circumstances are a bit different though and I totally understand why some guys aren’t interested in the 737 after many cushy years in the back seat.

[drshmoo]

For new hires or those with young kids, the lifestyle and job satisfaction on the 737 is surely better than the S/O gig. Sounds like your circumstances are a bit different though and I totally understand why some guys aren’t interested in the 737 after many cushy years in the back seat.

TL - could you please add the following.
Perth is horrible. Sharks in the water. $20 pints of beer. Commuting a nightmare! Don’t come haha 🤣

[Trigger Happy]

Hi, anyone having gone through/going through the QF mainline recruitment process care to shed some light on the process and what prep sites to use. Feel free to pm. Thanks to those who take the time. Cheers.

[rodney rude]

Direct Anywhere is spot on. In my time as an S/O at QF, before losing my medical and flying status, I got sick of pontificating fat tools telling me, at 36, how I should structure my career, ie how HE did. I was perfectly capable of making my own decisions in concert with my wife about where we lived, how we paid our mortgage and what lifestyle we wanted. Just wanted to say stick you 36ft cruiser up your date

[Flydawg]

having seen the consequences of the RIN first hand, I'm just a little more empathetic than others.

Apologies for the thread drift.
Sorry but would someone be able to tell me what RIN stands for....

[C441]

Sorry but would someone be able to tell me what RIN stands for....

Reduction In Numbers.

In recent times it has meant remaining in rank but moving to another, lower hourly rate type if you were lucky, or being demoted from Captain to F/O or F/O to S/O - sometimes with a fleet change as well (eg: 767 to anything, A380 to A330 or 744…..)

[Flydawg]

Reduction In Numbers.

In recent times it has meant remaining in rank but moving to another, lower hourly rate type if you were lucky, or being demoted from Captain to F/O or F/O to S/O - sometimes with a fleet change as well (eg: 767 to anything, A380 to A330 or 744…..)

Thanks C441

[DirectAnywhere]

Direct Anywhere is spot on. In my time as an S/O at QF, before losing my medical and flying status, I got sick of pontificating fat tools telling me, at 36, how I should structure my career, ie how HE did. I was perfectly capable of making my own decisions in concert with my wife about where we lived, how we paid our mortgage and what lifestyle we wanted. Just wanted to say stick you 36ft cruiser up your date

The problem is, no-one joining in the last 20 years has had, or will have, the opportunity to structure their career as today's senior LH captains have. The advice given is utterly irrelevant to those who are S/Os in today's airline unless, perhaps, they are brand new joiners in their 20s and without a partner and kids settled in jobs/ school.

[startno1]

Any updates on where they are at with internal/external applications?

[MICHELINSMOKE]

I second startno1, has anybody heard when people internal/external may expect some news?

[maggot]

I second startno1, has anybody heard when people internal/external may expect some news?

Sorry nothing but I'm hardly connected
Only thing I hear is va777s/os and cathay crew enmasse

[Yotobeats]

Hi Guys, Got the email saying i am thru to stage 3 and asked to pick a date for assessment centre in Sydney. This was 3 weeks ago and haven't heard anything since. Anyone else on the same boat waiting ? Getting a bit worried as the email said limited positions for each date and no response after 3 weeks, and they don't respond to your email for confirmation.

[High_To_Low]

Any updates for internals??

[Capt Fathom]

Anyone got tonight's winning Powerball numbers? Thanks. :}

[Jetdream]

Hi yotobeats, are you internal or external?
Have any external applicants heard anything yet?

[ilikecheese]

The reality is that they initially opened applications in OCT 2016. A year and a half down the track, and I know people who have been on hold for over 10 months!



Quite right, could be worse if you're an internal applicant.
A couple of internals who interviewed in FEB 2017 have only just received start dates for a mid-year course, it will be around the 17-month mark from interview date...

[Keg]

My view, Qantas doesn’t want any pilots from here... they are waiting for everyone else to take them then recruit from overseas. Make it look like they want locals, then drag their feet forever and wait to the end and the pool is all but dry, throw their hands in the air and get the taxpayer to build their flight school complete with a new fleet of DA40s.


Yeah, nah.

Mainlin pilot recruitment and the Group Pilot Acadmey project are completely separate beings. (Whether they remain that way in the future is a discussion for another time but people aren’t even thinking about that yet).

There is lots of stuff happening behind the scenes. Wouldn’t surprise me if people start hearing soon about online assessment and subsequent testing.

Good luck to all.

[Keg]

I hope you’re right but it all seems a bit suss to me.. they’re pushing for overseas pilots and I’m not sure they would take any locals if they had a cheaper option that had to do exactly as ordered with sponsorship revoking being held over them.. I’ve seen it before outside of aviation and not convinced this is not the master plan to take control

Who is "they're" in the "they're pushing..."? Mainline? Nope. Joyce has only ever mentioned 457 visas in the context of TRIs and crew for the Dash fleet. Personally I can't see their being a host of overseas based Dash 8 TRIs clamouring for the opportunity to come to Australia- particularly if they're on the 'cheaper option' deals that everyone keeps talking about.

[Yotobeats]

Hi yotobeats, are you internal or external?
Have any external applicants heard anything yet?

@jetdream . External

[startno1]

So externals have been doing online testing??? I hadn’t heard of anyone being contacted.

[Guest123]

Does anybody have any useful info for those still on hold since last year?

[Elephant Ear]

Have an interview coming up. Anybody know detailed information what is installed for us this time or is it expect the same as last year? So far got told behavioral,clinical assessment, possible sim and talent q re-sit. Cheers

[Aviatrix91]

Have an interview coming up. Anybody know detailed information what is installed for us this time or is it expect the same as last year? So far got told behavioral,clinical assessment, possible sim and talent q re-sit. Cheers

Elephant Ear, I don’t know if the process has changed this year or not however August/September it was initial psychometric and video and then on the day was group exercise, panel interview, individual exercise, clinical assessment and re validation of psychometric tests. If passing all of this on the first day , you are invited back for the sim assessment (767/747) in the couple of following days. If passing that then it’s medical and reference check. Some may have been required to completely redo the psychometric test and/ see a psychiatrist.

All the best through the process and good luck

[V24]

Anyone on hold been given a June start? The lack of info from recruitment is a little frustrating...

[ChaseIt]

Had a mate get a cold call from someone at Qlink... (short of the long) comment to my mate ‘if applying to the QF group, you won’t get a position on a jet straight away’.

Reading between the lines, potential employees are going to have to call their bluff if they want to avoid getting put on a dash...

What will it take for terms and conditions to finally increase to attract more employees? (Tread drift I know sorry)

[Seagull201]

I's say a good percentage of QLink pilots (whether Captain or F/O), will leave and join Emirates, if there's no prospect for an advancement onto a jet within 5 years.
I'm aware person's have to weigh up the option of family life or the opportunity to fly a 777, i think most people will opt for the 777, and it's already happening.
People cannot sit at the back of an aircraft a play Second Officer for 9 years,serving coffee, but most do, at the end of the day, a real pilot wants to join the big league and
become a Captain on the 777 or A380 in lightning time, with a company that offers real opportunity.

The problem with QF mainline, they're paying 90 to 100K, for someone to be a Second Officer, should be only 60K.
If someone wants to be paid 90k, then QF should have a system, the person is a F/O on the Dash 8 for a month and the next month they can make coffee as a Second Officer.
Second Officer's role, inflight relief, how about the F/O getting out of his seat and letting the S/O do a real hands on take off or landing?
It won't happen.

They're my thoughts.

[ruprecht]

60k for a QF SO?

Sure, if the captain is getting 120... :rolleyes:

[Trigger Happy]

Seagull201- best keep your thoughts to yourself :yuk:

[Australopithecus]

Seagull: . None of your thoughts reflect reality.

My highly paid and well qualified S/Os don’t serve coffee. Their licences do not allow operation below FL200, nor does policy.
EK is not the viable career option that it once seemed. I won’t make you turn even greener by revealing actual S/O pay.

[Slippery_Pete]

Seagull201- best keep your thoughts to yourself https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/pukey.gif

Agreed.

90k for an SO? That’s about three months pay for a senior A380 SO.

[The Green Goblin]

Most QF SOs would be well north of 200K.

Its a pay cut to be a narrow body FO. Initially anyway.

[Max-Diff]

Anyone on hold been given a June start? The lack of info from recruitment is a little frustrating...

Agreed- it would be nice to know what' going on. I know a few folk on the hold file and I don' know anyone with a June start date. It seems consistent that people are doing about 7 or 8 months on hold before getting the call. Hope you hear something soon!

[Toga Toga Toga]

How senior is the ‘average’ QF S/O to attain those pay levels though?

With time to Wide Body F/O positions sitting at 15 years (second hand, happy to be corrected), and many rejecting the Narrow Body lifestyle, you would hope S/O pay is good to keep the guys at least financially on par with those who head elsewhere.

[Max-Diff]

Does anybody have any useful info for those still on hold since last year?
hey guest I can understand your frustration, I'm in the same boat. I've heard that they may be calling people for an August start date but nothing concrete.

[Ollie Onion]

So realistically what ballpark figure could a SO on the 787 bring home annually.

[almostthere!]

So realistically what ballpark figure could a SO on the 787 bring home annually.


$110k plus super

[Oakape]

Quote:Originally Posted by Ollie Onion https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/584827-qantas-recruitment-69.html#post10143619)So realistically what ballpark figure could a SO on the 787 bring home annually.$110k plus super

Except you don't 'bring home' super. At least not until you are 65ish & retire.

[High_To_Low]

Has any internals been given an interview date yet?

[goose1]

$110k plus super

it’s more than that, significant allowances (tax free) on top of that!

[Xplanejockey]

Hi all, first time poster long time lurker of these forums and I know this is slightly off topic. I was weighing up the options I have been looking at to begin the transition into a career in aviation. So the current situation I’m in at the moment, I’m 27 and I’m a qualified heritage stonemason working at a subcontractor for the last few years and I only completed my year 10 school certificate. Would it be advised to complete my higher school certificate and look at applying through a cadetship in the coming years or chip away at flight training at my own cost? I also worked for Qantas on the ramp at SIT for 4 years in my early 20’s. Any advice would be greatly appreciated to point me in the right direction! Cheers

[ChaseIt]

Has any internals been given an interview date yet?

Yes.........

[DirectAnywhere]

it’s more than that, significant allowances (tax free) on top of that!
Allowances don't count. They're fully expended while at work on food, beverages and incidentals, especially when asked by the Deputy Assistant Commissioner for Taxation.

[V-Jet]

$110k plus super
it’s more than that, significant allowances (tax free) on top of that!

Just to let you know how far Qf Pilots have come - that’s about what S/O’s on the right aircraft (admittedly working hard) were earning when the -400 was introduced in ‘89.

And to make that relevant to today, Back then, 2 bedroom apartments in Bondi were $200k. $220k with a a garage.

Well voted those that ditched overtime and night credits, I say! And for the record, that most certainly was NOT the senior guys, who saw and knew exactly what an S/O B scale and jet lag meant.

[Keg]

I was patten line holder 744 S/O in ‘95. I was nowhere near that number in year 1 and 2. I then went to the 767 as a F/O (and rotated) and didn’t see that sort of coin for another 2- 3 years.

Agree re allowances. No one I know includes those in’pay’.

[V-Jet]

That was unfortunate Keg! I was in your boat too, but I was very well aware of the numbers for those unfortunate enough to be junior barons and then being displaced by seniority from their rightful position 35,000’ over HNL to 28,000’ over KHI. Would have been a nasty shock:)

Nor is your pay example making any allowance for inflation. And that’s where it really counts.

The numbers are fact - and show exactly why Alan did such a great job selling the 78 contract.

[Aussie Fo]

Oh please!

Spare me this crap about the long haul award. There are two airlines and the long haul contract was out dated and past it’s used by date. Overtime for being asleep in the bunk?

Look at who was offering to do the flying for less than we get. My very limited calculations suggest we got perhaps 20 % more then what Jetstar get for the same aircraft. I will give that somewhere on here a long time ago someone did a direct comparison 787/380 Syd Dallas and yes it’s a lot of hours. But the gravy train had to run dry one day.

The 787 crew (when compared to other airlines) won’t be living in Potts Point but lifestyle will be good, Fatigue is something that will need to be managed. By all accounts everyone I speak to, and they have mostly come from the 330 and very happy all around.

its a step forward to a realistic point that can always be improved on.

Now about the 75 aircraft on the short haul award that most of us are stuck in

[Average Joe]

Oh please!

Spare me this crap about the long haul award. There are two airlines and the long haul contract was out dated and past it’s used by date. Overtime for being asleep in the bunk?

Look at who was offering to do the flying for less than we get. My very limited calculations suggest we got perhaps 20 % more then what Jetstar get for the same aircraft. I will give that somewhere on here a long time ago someone did a direct comparison 787/380 Syd Dallas and yes it’s a lot of hours. But the gravy train had to run dry one day.

The 787 crew (when compared to other airlines) won’t be living in Potts Point but lifestyle will be good, Fatigue is something that will need to be managed. By all accounts everyone I speak to, and they have mostly come from the 330 and very happy all around.

its a step forward to a realistic point that can always be improved on.

Now about the 75 aircraft on the short haul award that most of us are stuck in

Yikes, don’t let this guy in the negotiating room.
EVERYTHING MUST GO!

[Tuner 2]

Every other airline around the world operating 787s seems to be able to do it without 4 pilot night credits and planned overtime. Any many don't have the night credits for 2/3 pilot ops like we do OR overtime for exceeding planned TOD like we do on the 787.

Speaking of New York trips.
A typical 9 day 48/48/48 BNE/LAX/JFK/LAX/BNE is worth 49:30 MPC on the 747. Add in planned O/T of 6:23 gives total pay for the pattern of 55:53 on the 747. Credit for the same trip on the 787 would be 49:30 with no planned O/T.
747 pilots RINed to the 787 go straight to year 4 787 rates.

Using the effective 1 July 2018 rates:

747 year 12 Capt rate of $310.55 x 55:53 = $17,354 for the trip
787 year 4 Capt rate of $353.03 x 49:30 = $17,474 for the trip.
Year 1 787 Capt rate of $327.82 would make the pattern worth $16,227 or about 6% less than the 747.

Argue about the exact $ rate on the 787 all you want, but I prefer having a pay structure that doesn't have up to 30% of my pay at risk and dependent on the route structure determined by the company (as well as being restricted by the strict seniority system!!).

[SandyPalms]

Argue about the exact $ rate on the 787 all you want, but I prefer having a pay structure that doesn't have up to 30% of my pay at risk and dependent on the route structure determined by the company (as well as being restricted by the strict seniority system!!).

With the incentive of always being LATE. The later we are, the better the pay. What a stupid system. We are our own worst enemy.

[Tuner 2]

Compare a very senior A380 Capt roster with a very junior A380 Capt roster. One doing mainly DFW and LAX trips and the other LHR and Asian trips. Both have been in the company 30+ years, yet one is making >$50k per year more and working 30 or more days a year less. How is this justifiable?

[Aussie Fo]

Compare a very senior A380 Capt roster with a very junior A380 Capt roster. One doing mainly DFW and LAX trips and the other LHR and Asian trips. Both have been in the company 30+ years, yet one is making >$50k per year more and working 30 or more days a year less. How is this justifiable?


“Don’t worry son, you’ll be senior one day.”

Except most of us will be lucky to have 5 years as a east coast captain. Especially those who have plans to retire at 60 and enjoy the fruits of working for a airline that treats staff as a commodity rather than a asset

[ruprecht]

Now that there is no overtime on the 787, it will be interesting to compare sick leave rates with the other fleets in a few years, once the gloss has worn off of course. If you’re getting paid regardless, going sick is an easier decision.

Not me obviously, I do it all for the glory of qantas, but everyone else... :E

[Keg]

I wonder though if there’ll be less upline illness too as people no longer ‘push on’ so that they don’t miss out on the o/t $$$. Conversely we may find the rate of infection throughout the fleet may also decrease because people aren’t stressed about missing out on the o/t and stop turning up to work less than healthy and infecting everyone else on the crew.

[ruprecht]

Yep, all fair points.

[fearcampaign]

Tuner 2 the problem with your maths is that the majority of the patterns ex BNE are only 8 day trips so only worth 44 hours with MDC.
Only a 24 hour slip required Southbound in LAX. The odd 48 hour slip is not common.Only SYD patterns require 48 hours.
Sadly Thats as good as is gets for the 787. Accept the point that in the early days longer slips will lessen the impact.
Like to see a MEL/LAX or a PER/LHR comparison.

Aussie FOs comments are not only foolish but show the race to the bottom mindset that has led to the situation we find ourselves in with Jetconnect or any other entity. Please stay well away from any negotiations please!
Perhaps the Network A320 or Jetconnect pilot that is already endorsed and backed by a legal comfort letter can do his/her job for 30-50% less. Maybe he/she thinks your overpaid and on an expensive contract? No cost for QF to transfer away your flying and have you on MGH. If QF Short Haul switch to A320s why couldn’t Network already endorsed take your flying? Or Jetconnect with a fresh comfort letter.
Perhaps you could race him/her to the bottom too? I wouldn’t be so smug.
I don’t agree with this, but it’s no different to your comments on other awards that you make Ill considered generalisations about.

Keg. Very sound points regarding Sick leave without overtime though. One up side.
Fatigue, family issues or a 50/50 if on the cusp of getting sick as you say and it’s no penalty. As you wisely pointed out no advantage to keep the show on the road. Allows the legal intent of the CAO/CARs to not cause a $ penalty

[Tuner 2]

Tuner 2 the problem with your maths is that the majority of the patterns ex BNE are only 8 day trips so only worth 44 hours with MDC.
Only a 24 hour slip required Southbound in LAX. The odd 48 hour slip is not common.Only SYD patterns require 48 hours.
Sadly Thats as good as is gets for the 787. Accept the point that in the early days longer slips will lessen the impact.
Like to see a MEL/LAX or a PER/LHR comparison.

Aussie FOs comments are not only foolish but show the race to the bottom mindset that has led to the situation we find ourselves in with Jetconnect or any other entity. Please stay well away from any negotiations please!
Perhaps the Network A320 or Jetconnect pilot that is already endorsed and backed by a legal comfort letter can do his/her job for 30-50% less. Maybe he/she thinks your overpaid and on an expensive contract? No cost for QF to transfer away your flying and have you on MGH. If QF Short Haul switch to A320s why couldn’t Network already endorsed take your flying? Or Jetconnect with a fresh comfort letter.
Perhaps you could race him/her to the bottom too? I wouldn’t be so smug.
I don’t agree with this, but it’s no different to your comments on other awards that you make Ill considered generalisations about.

Keg. Very sound points regarding Sick leave without overtime though. One up side.
Fatigue, family issues or a 50/50 if on the cusp of getting sick as you say and it’s no penalty. As you wisely pointed out no advantage to keep the show on the road. Allows the legal intent of the CAO/CARs to not cause a $ penalty














Had a look at the BNE pattern book and there is a mix of 8 and 9 days JFK trips. Some even have 72 hours in LAX in one direction to make a 9 day trip.

With an 8 day trip 48/48/24, the numbers are:
787 yr 4 capt: 353.03 x 44 = $15,533
747 yr 12 capt: 310.55 x (44+6:23) = $15,647
Less than a 1% difference.

Obviously PER/LHR/PER with O/T will be different, however the 747 can't fly this route and this is the most extreme route for doing any 787 vs 747 comparisons. I doubt that it would even be profitable for the 747 to fly PER/LHR, even if it had the range. Looking at the 787 patterns, there are also plenty of domestic patterns like PER/MEL/PER and MEL/BNE flying, all of which pays more than any other type on those patterns and which retain full night credits for any 2 pilot ops.

At the end of the day, even the "worst case scenario" of a full roster of 4 pilot PER/LHR/PER trips equates to 4.5 x 6 day trips per 56 day BP at planning divisor of 155 or 27.2 days per 56 day BP - remembering that sign-on day 1 isn't until about 6pm local.

I think we need to see what the route network looks like with the 14 jets. All we have so far is the 787 EBA haters latching on to the "lost" overtime on the PER?LHR route, which we wouldn't otherwise even be flying.

[V-Jet]

I think we need to see what the route network looks like with the 14 jets.

Bit hard to argue about money/fatigue at the moment - In stark contrast to every other QF fleet, I believe there are about 100 crew per 787 at the moment! Almost as difficult to get a seat as on staff travel!

[chickoroll]

Crikey, reading this how could any QF drivers be fatigued or over worked!

Unless you’re on the 73, then that’s a different kettle of fish.

[JPJP]

They're my thoughts.

‘What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.’

How old are you ?

[Seagull201]

‘What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.’

How old are you ?



Hello JPJP,

Did you jump up and down when QF got rid off 5,000 staff and a couple of hundred pilots, a while ago when they were 500 in the red?
Did you jump up and down when they closed some of their maintenance facilities?
As if you care. You care about yourself, as everyone else.

My previous post was poorly worded.
You want to have a debate, i'll put my 5 bob on the table.

What i wanted to know, why do S/O's get paid 100K for the role they do, it's more than a Dash 8 Captain and B717 F/O.
VA S/O's are only on 65K.

I don't give a crap if QF pays a S/O;s 90 to 100k a year, i certainly wouldn't, it should be no more than 65K, company can save 30 million
a year, i'd even double the position up, as flight attendant and they come in the flightdeck when needed (relief), company can save 60 million
a year. Does that sound insane to you?

Why?
The company can nearly buy a new B737800 with that money.

QF, SQ, CX, have S/O's, BA,LH and others have an additional F/O as part of the crew, no S/O.

I'm well aware that's the QF culture and the job (S/O) pays that position.
If there's an economic down turn again, as previously, you know yourself the company can drop pays to save money,
and you have no say in it.

Quote: God have mercy and bless your soul".
Are you some wise guy and you think you own the world or something.

I have no intention in playing ping pong with you mister, because you're better than anyone else. You're the best.

[wishiwasupthere]

Nuffies on Pprune.

QF got rid off ...........a couple of hundred pilots,

Pretty sure thats false.

[ConfigFull]

QF, SQ, CX, have S/O's, BA,LH and others have an additional F/O as part of the crew, no S/O.

Aaaaaaaaand he's proven our point for us! Sounds like a wannabe from 'The Street' at lunchtime...

[CurtainTwitcher]

Seagull, didn't you get Alan's latest memo (especially the bold below)? Check your inbox immediately!
my Bold

China buys up flying schools as pilot demand rises

Mainland airlines scour world for staff with talent shortage threatening growth

Jamie Smyth in Melbourne and Ben Bland in Hong Kong MAY 11, 2018

Chinese airlines are buying foreign flying schools and poaching pilots, amplifying a talent shortage that has affected airlines in other regions. “The growth in Chinese aviation is unprecedented in our lifetimes and probably in history,” said Paul Jebely, a Hong-Kong-based lawyer specialising in aviation. “There have been more aircraft ordered than there are pilots to fly them. ” The squeeze on flying talent has triggered flight cancellations, dented profits and threatened the industry’s ambitious growth targets around the world. Emirates is the latest major airline to feel the impact of a war for aviation talent with the Middle Eastern carrier cancelling flights and grounding aircraft this month due to a shortage of about 125 pilots. “We’re a tad short of pilots,” Tim Clark, Emirates chief executive, said last month in a moment of understatement, adding that Chinese carriers were offering extremely competitive packages to pilots to move to Shanghai or Beijing.



Chinese airlines are buying foreign flying schools and poaching pilots, amplifying a talent shortage that has affected airlines in other regions. “The growth in Chinese aviation is unprecedented in our lifetimes and probably in history,” said Paul Jebely, a Hong-Kong-based lawyer specialising in aviation. “There have been more aircraft ordered than there are pilots to fly them. ” The squeeze on flying talent has triggered flight cancellations, dented profits and threatened the industry’s ambitious growth targets around the world. Emirates is the latest major airline to feel the impact of a war for aviation talent with the Middle Eastern carrier cancelling flights and grounding aircraft this month due to a shortage of about 125 pilots. “We’re a tad short of pilots,” Tim Clark, Emirates chief executive, said last month in a moment of understatement, adding that Chinese carriers were offering extremely competitive packages to pilots to move to Shanghai or Beijing. China's pilots get their wings in Australia In September Ryanair axed 20,000 flights due to a rostering mess-up made worse by pilot shortages. This forced the low-cost carrier to reverse a longstanding policy and recognise trade unions and agree new pay deals — a move that it said would cost it €100m ($120m) a year from 2019. Experts say the pilot shortage has been prompted by surging demand for air travel fuelled by the rise of low cost carriers in recent decades. Some say this has gone hand-in-hand with a lowering in the status and pay of pilots, in comparison to other industries, and the rising cost of flight training in western nations, which is putting off new recruits. China is on course to overtake the US as the world’s largest air travel market by 2022, according to the International Air Transport Association. US aircraft maker Boeing predicts China will need 110,000 new pilots in the years through to 2035, and its airlines are expected to purchase 7,000 commercial aircraft over the next two decades.

China’s aviation market grew by 13 per cent last year, with 549m passengers taking to the skies, double the number who flew in 2010. Growth is being driven by the rising middle class, an expansion of routes by Chinese airlines and the easing of visa restrictions by foreign governments keen to attract Chinese tourists.

https://i.imgur.com/OWQ1ZNc.png

The number of pilots and co-pilots working in China almost doubled between 2011 and 2017. Over recent months China’s main airlines — China Eastern, Air China, China Southern and Hainan Airlines — have stepped up recruitment and are expanding their offshore training. “Chinese airlines have raised pay dramatically,” said Dave Ross, the president of Wasinc International, which helps Chinese airlines find foreign pilots. Mr Ross said pilots coming from Central or Latin America, and some places in Europe could quadruple their compensation in China. The starting salary offered to foreign pilots in China has jumped over the past 10 years from $10,000 per month to $26,000 per month, tax free, and was still rising, he said. “Some Chinese airlines are offering tax-free salary packages, which can be up to twice what western airlines offer,” said Murray Butt, president of the Australian and International Pilots Association.

India’s surging air travel — where passenger numbers have been growing by an average of about 16 per cent a year since the beginning of the millennium — adds more pressure to the global pilot shortage.

https://i.imgur.com/rWzNlNh.png

Having seen rapid growth in passenger numbers over the past few years, Indian airlines have been recruiting from the military, from abroad and from their competitors by offering increasingly lucrative contracts. They have also made it more difficult for pilots to leave, forcing commanding officers to give a year’s notice if they wish to leave. “Airlines have been poaching each other’s pilots, and this move was meant to stop some of that,” said one pilot, referring to the one-year notice period. “But as far as the pilots are concerned, it is outrageous.” Chinese airlines pay the tuition of cadet pilots and are intensifying efforts to develop more local talent. But there are only 22 pilot schools in China and restrictions on the use of domestic airspace mean they are increasingly looking overseas to partner with foreign flights schools. Almost half of China’s 5,053 trainee pilots last year were trained abroad, creating a flourishing business for flight schools and their owners in the US, Canada and Australia. “Chinese companies have been on a buying spree of foreign flight schools from Australia to the US and the Philippines to Canada,” said Mr Jebely. “There are many very happy flight school owners who have cashed out, with some significant premiums paid.” The gleaming new offices and recently purchased Cessna aircraft at CAE Oxford’s flight school at Moorabbin airport in Melbourne highlights how Chinese cash is transforming the flight school industry in Australia.

https://i.imgur.com/UnJ5aaL.png

“About half our students are Chinese students at the moment — it means we can invest in aircraft and facilities that you see here,” said Mike Drinkall, general manager of CAE Oxford, which operates more than 50 pilot schools globally. China Eastern bought half of CAE’s Australian subsidiary in 2014. It is training 150 pilots at the centre this year and plans to double that number following a $50m investment in facilities, now under construction. The influx of Chinese trainees into Australian flight schools has coincided with a 25 per cent drop in the number of local trainees receiving commercial pilots’ licences — prompting concern among the country’s airlines. “There is a shortage of pilots everywhere. We are lucky because we are at the top of the food chain,” said Alan Joyce, Qantas chief executive. “But what we are worried about is that we are taking pilots from the military and general aviation, and we can’t keep doing that or the ecosystem won’t survive.” Qantas says it will open the biggest flight school in Australia next year and train up to 500 pilots a year. The school will train Australians but also foreign candidates — including Chinese — as the airline seeks to capitalise on the fastest growing aviation market in the world. “Given our brand name this could be a good business in its own right,” said Mr Joyce.

source: FT (https://www.ft.com/content/448b059e-4ea4-11e8-9471-a083af05aea7) Fair uses for the purposes of education and public interest

[AerocatS2A]

What i wanted to know, why do S/O's get paid 100K for the role they do, it's more than a Dash 8 Captain and B717 F/O.
VA S/O's are only on 65K.



I would be astounded if QF SOs are only getting 100K per year.

[Capt Fathom]

I would be astounded if QF SOs are only getting 100K per year.
I have heard up to $250k.
Unfortunately I’m too old too sign up!

[Altimeters]

What i wanted to know, why do S/O's get paid 100K for the role they do, it's more than a Dash 8 Captain and B717 F/O.
VA S/O's are only on 65K.

No they don’t. Latest EBA that got passed showed they’re on between 90-100k.

I also award you no points.

[theheadmaster]

The Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2015 can be found on the Fair Work website. Here is a link: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/agreements/fwa/ae415325.pdf

First year Second Officer on the A330, 747 and A380 base is about $92,500 pa with a 3% pay rise on 1 July 2018. Base pay for 787 Second Officer is about $105,000 with 3% pay rise on 1 July 2018. Base pay goes up significantly after 18 months on the A330, 747 and A380. Overtime will also add a significant amount for 747 and A380 Second Officers. Recruitment should be direct to the 787 unless there is an operational requirement to recruit to other types. The quantum of pay for 787 Second Officer is similar to regional pilot Captain pay. This is not a coincidence.

Suitably qualified new joiners wishing to fly the 737 as a First Officer can get a Perth basing very soon after joining. The most junior 737 First Officer Melbourne base was awarded to a Second Officer with about six moths in mainline.

[romeocharlie]

‘What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.’

How old are you ?



Not old enough to appreciate one of Sandler's greatest hits.

Don't be gull-ible - don't feed the seagulls :}

[Mango]

Suitably qualified new joiners wishing to fly the 737 as a First Officer can get a Perth basing very soon after joining. The most junior 737 First Officer Melbourne base was awarded to a Second Officer with about six moths in mainline.

Just wondering what the pay is like for a 737 FO job out of Perth?

[V-Jet]

Hearing figures of SOs on the 747/380 who have been there since GFC all north of $300K some north of $350K

I can categorically state without any fear of contradiction that NO Second Officer in QF earns anywhere NEAR as much in a year as Alan Joyce earns in 5 days. 380 Captains would almost squeak in 6 days, A330 Captains might earn 5, working hard, but generally a very highly paid (10+ year) S/O on the 'right' aircraft and working hard (ie: unable to sleep at night on the rare occasions they were home) would earn around 48 hours worth of Joyce's annual income.

[mrdeux]

Hearing figures of SOs on the 747/380 who have been there since GFC all north of $300K some north of $350K

Rubbish. If that's the case it's time for me to cease being an 380 Captain, and switch to SO.

[V-Jet]

Rubbish. If that's the case it's time for me to cease being an 380 Captain, and switch to SO.

If you're quick you might beat the rush! Now this secret is out, just imagine the stress on the training system!!!

[Keg]

In 2011 QF released data that the average A380 Capts salary was 500K , sounds like tough times for the QF A380 four stripers......

Will be standing by the data I know to be fact



Nice own goal. Every Qantas driver now knows you’re completely full of it and have no idea as to what our incomes actually are.

Qantas figures said zero about the ‘average A380 captain’. The only A380 captain in 2011 earning $500K would have been the Chief Pilot.... who is on a contract with bonuses, not line pay. He actually earns (with bonuses) significantly more than that these days.

What do they ewrn now? No idea. I can work it out and so can anyone else who has access to the award and knows a rough overtime figure.

Whether S/Os ‘deserve’ $100K, $200K or even $300K is entirely irrelevant. The agreement was negotiated and agreed to by Qantas.

In some respects this is a problem of their own making. Had they allowed QF pilots to access jobs within the group years ago (like we were asking for around 2003) the S/Os on 12 year pay on the 380 would likely instead be Captains on JQ A320s. Their positions on the A380 would be taken up by people on year 1-3 pay instead of year 12. Qantas would be saving 25-40% on S/O pay.

But hey, the smartest airline managers in the world didn’t want to ‘pollute the culture’.

[What The]

V what is the relevance of whether you earn one day of AJs wage or fifty days , he is a CEO & you say you are a pilot - they are different jobs mate

Have you had a few beers today ?

What you should be asking is how do you compare to comparable airlines ? & it would seem the QF SOs make $200k Gbp - likely more than most BA Skips
& $275K Usd , likely what a Capt at Air Canada , US major

Apples with apples Bro - you with me ?

Why would you do that Mr Deuax ? Because if you do you will divide your salary by two

& as a Capt you would be making twice what an SO makes

In 2011 QF released data that the average A380 Capts salary was 500K , sounds like tough times for the QF A380 four stripers
if you have regressed $200K over a seven year time period.

Poor chaps which should arrange a street march in all the capitals this Saturday to take up a collection for you

Will be standing by the data I know to be fact

200K GBP to be an SO - happy days it seems for the backseaters on 380/747

What % of these guys would be north of 50 you reckon ?

Another dip**** Qantas Angel. You know f all from jack all knob.

[Tangosierra]

Hey Telfer86 I call absolute bull**** on your figures! I was a Captain on the A380 with Qantas from 2008 to 2015 and my average wage off my Group Certificates
for that entire period was around $364,000; $500,000 plus? Tell him he's dreaming.!!

[Keg]

Yes. They lied, or you’re mis-representing what they said. I suspect the average pay was closer to $365K for an A380 Captain in 2011. A 744 Captain would have been less than that again.

You can do the sums yourself if you like. Hourly pay rate was $272ish per credit hour. The divisor average per bid period was about 170. 6.5 bid periods per annum. 40 hours overtime per bid period for 6 bid periods- that o/t number is possibly a bit generous. $366K.

Now do the same numbers for the 744 Captains using an hourly pay rate of $259- except they did less overtime than the 380 by 5-10hours per bid period.

Now if perhaps Qantas instead said the highest earning A380 pilot earned $500K then perhaps that holds true. He was their man, on their contract and rarely flew. Hardly representative of ‘the average’.

You can keep trotting out the $500K BS if you like but you’re just making that hole you’re in much deeper.

[SandyPalms]

So Keg you are saying that QF was telling untruths in 2011 when you were having a little dust up ?

YES. They were full of ****, for effect. Bit like you, it would seem.

[Tankengine]

You can call whatever you like TS

You can even call yourself a former QF WB Capt

But the CEO of QF & Senior Management were quoting $500K as being the average pay of an A380 Capt at that point in time

(from memory it included super) & 744 Capts on $440K

They lied huh Keg you claim , this all sounds very cloak & dagger , conspiracies - all a bit like an MI5 plot
The hourly rates for the awards are public. Absolute max hours per bid period is 180, IF you can fit that in without infringing 900hours. “Element 3” (google the award) additional pay (overtime) is about 45 hours on A380, about 25 hours for B744.
Add it up yourself, the most senior, doing max hours earn less than you reckon.
Yep, they lied and/or you are full of it. ;)

[donpizmeov]

I will never understand why some pilots will be upset that others get paid more than themselves. No wonder this industry is in a downward spiral .

[Tankengine]

I will never understand why some pilots will be upset that others get paid more than themselves. No wonder this industry is in a downward spiral .
Too true! So easy to look at someones previous posts to see their History, and to see if they are actually PP or wannabees with a chip!
;)

[Jetsbest]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. (Attributed by Mark Twain to British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli)

[Keg]

Mate, do the maths yourself. I’ve provided the numbers so knock your socks off.

I see you’ve decided to start shifting the goal posts and want to start including super. What’s next? You want to throw in allowances as well? Even including super for the A380 Captains (which given most of them were on Div 2 and a hybrid defined benefit system is difficult you’re still out on your numbers to the tune of 20%. Hope you’re not a pilot and ordering fuel and as gullible (and bad with numbers) as you’ve shown yourself to be on PPRUNE.

If you’re serious about ‘reality’ how about you pay attention to those living in it?

[mrdeux]

Why would you do that Mr Deuax ? Because if you do you will divide your salary by two

& as a Capt you would be making twice what an SO makes

In 2011 QF released data that the average A380 Capts salary was 500K , sounds like tough times for the QF A380 four stripers
if you have regressed $200K over a seven year time period.

And as you've been told a number of times, that 500k figure was pure fantasy. Seven years later, and I'm still nowhere near what you are claiming was the average. It was bull**** then, and it is now.

[Tankengine]

Mate, do the maths yourself. I’ve provided the numbers so knock your socks off.

I see you’ve decided to start shifting the goal posts and want to start including super. What’s next? You want to throw in allowances as well? Even including super for the A380 Captains (which given most of them were on Div 2 and a hybrid defined benefit system is difficult you’re still out on your numbers to the tune of 20%. Hope you’re not a pilot and ordering fuel and as gullible (and bad with numbers) as you’ve shown yourself to be on PPRUNE.

If you’re serious about ‘reality’ how about you pay attention to those living in it?
His post history re questions about cadet entry to Cathay, Air Hong Kong, US regionals, interspersed with Qantas recruitment
would suggest someone trying to join an Airline but failing at it - possibly because he/she will not listen to reason.
Chip re Qantas pay would suggest he missed out. I have been a pretty senior Captain on the 330 and only topped 300K (including super and allowances) recently due high divisors and more overtime than most. (Telf does not understand most of the terminology, not actually being an Airline pilot.)
Time to stop blaming everone else and get some life experience!

[V-Jet]

But the CEO of QF & Senior Management were quoting $500K as being the average pay of an A380 Capt at that point in time

'Qf & Senior management' lie ALL the time. In almost EVERY communication and press announcement I have read in the last XX years, they have made a habit of not just bending the truth, but outright lies. It's a joke. Met with either instant deletion or outright derision across the board. It's a joke they get away with through Chairman's Lounge soft corruption.

In your cubicle we have to assume you are paid to lie as well. So whilst you are possibly waving the flag as a proud drone, you cannot really be serious.

Nice Doublethink though...

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

who is remotely upset just a discussion about numbers what is reality and what is not

seems a few hear get a bit hot under the collar when some one simply posts some data they heard & some that QF themselves stated is true



“Some data they heard” - well, it doesn’t get any more authoritative than that, except for “some that QF themselves stated is true”. Because QF themselves would never say anything remotely untrue. So when you read in 2011 that QF pilots were demanding massages in the first class lounge, plus an extra $200k, yep, that was totally true. :rolleyes:

do you ever think the reason for QFs modest performance in International this century might be these numbers ?

You mean the recent record $1bn-plus profits, made under basically the same pilot contracts as before?

[Transition Layer]

Just wondering what the pay is like for a 737 FO job out of Perth?

Starting at about $150k Year 1 up to about $220k Year 4 (+ allowances + super) depending on how hard you want to work. $10-15k allowances on average, mostly tax free due to increasing number of overnights.

Additionally, the Short Haul bonus has been paid out at around 6-9% of those figures above in the last couple of years and should continue for the next couple.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Telfer86 if you don’t even know the difference between hear and here may I respectfully suggest you finish your schooling and then come back and join the conversation.

[Jetsbest]

'Qf & Senior management' lie ALL the time.
While I understand & empathise with what you’re trying to express, I must politely disagree.

Company statements which ‘mislead the market’ etc could be illegal; they are in fact very carefully crafted to be defensible as not lying. But, having said that, it seems patently obvious that QF’s ‘industrially-motivated’ pronouncements have often;
- been only part of the whole truth,
- been very selective in the facts presented,
- been offered as opinions rather than facts,
- been selective in the timeframes they reference,
- been disingenuous in any comparisons made.

Unfortunately, as is the case with big business, advertising & ‘media power’ in Australia at present, it seems very unlikely that a more balanced perspective will make it into the public domain. 😩🤔

[V-Jet]

Say, for example I had used (as a matter of course)


- been only part of the whole truth,
- been very selective in the facts presented,
- been offered as opinions rather than facts,
- been selective in the timeframes they reference,
- been disingenuous in any comparisons made.


with the ATO (or even in a criminal Court) I would likely not be free to comment. And then there are Company emails, which I frequently cannot believe that even the writer could take seriously. The ‘truth bending’ at Qf has become so entrenched and accepted, that it beggars belief. O’Brien (Winston Smiths’ ultimate detractor) would be proud! Another talented character in the same field, one Joseph Geobbels, had a similar approach - in essence, use as little of the truth as necessary. Unfortunately, for a time, that approach does work.

The bad news delivered by the telescreen was that the chocolate ration would be reduced from 30 grams to 20 grams at the start of the following week. Later on in the Ministry of Truth as Winston was correcting information for The Times, it was revealed that the Ministry of Plenty had some time back issued a categorical pledge that there would be no further reduction of chocolate rations during that year. Ironically, one day later, demonstrations were held in praise of Big Brother for increasing the chocolate ration to twenty grams. Winston was stunned at how mindless everyone else seemed to be for forgetting in just a span of twenty four hours that the ration had actually been decreased and not increased.

Pretty much sums up Qf’s expansion program IMHO. And the triumphs of (insert failed JQ entity here).

And one very famous quote from Dr Geobbels himself:
A lie told once remains a lie but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth. ... If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself. ... Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious.
All the misinformation from Qf’s Ministry of Truth simply should not be necessary. The entire basis of Aviation is absolute truth, mess with that and people invariably get hurt. It’s not surprising technical employees of Qf take such ‘information’ with somewhat more than a grain of salt! And it’s just SO unnecessary!

[Jetsbest]

All the misinformation from Qf’s Ministry of Truth simply should not be necessary. The entire basis of Aviation is absolute truth, mess with that and people invariably get hurt. It’s not surprising technical employees of Qf take such ‘information’ with somewhat more than a grain of salt! And it’s just SO unnecessary!

With that I am in total agreement!

I have always thought that the extent to which QF management assertions actually had a real & verifiable basis in facts then questions would have been welcomed, and the answers to which c/would have;
a. dispelled the sceptics’ ‘myths’,
b. enhanced employeee understanding of the ‘gameplan’, and
c. brought the now ‘engaged’ staff along as part of the solution.
The fact that no serious questions have been directly answered, or even entertained, speaks volumes. Hmmmm.

[Autobrakes4]

Ok, some facts.
380 capt's are on $400+, 330 capt's are on $350+, 380 s/o's (the majority) are on $250+, 737 capt's are on $320+ (the people that chase the flying on more obviously), 737 f/o's are on $200+ (chasers more)
I don't know about the 787 people but it should be easy to work out as there is no overtime to be calculated ( so hourly rate times divisor, allowances, plus a few sims, ep's etc)

[ANCDU]

Think you need to check your “facts” a bit more! Some of those figures for the junior ranks are higher than what I have seen, even some of the CP figures.

[startno1]

Any useful info on where they are at with external applications? Have people been doing online testing?

[V24]

What?! You're asking about 'Qantas Recruitment?' I think you're in the wrong thread... :}

[Brown Cow]

Ok, some facts.
380 capt's are on $400+, 330 capt's are on $350+, 380 s/o's (the majority) are on $250+, 737 capt's are on $320+ (the people that chase the flying on more obviously), 737 f/o's are on $200+ (chasers more)
I don't know about the 787 people but it should be easy to work out as there is no overtime to be calculated ( so hourly rate times divisor, allowances, plus a few sims, ep's etc)

I’m a 10 year A330 SO. $160000 last year

[Hatchet Harry]

This piece was on the radio last week. Might be some additional QF aircraft coming online for an AFL ‘partnership’ deal:

https://www.triplem.com.au/shows/the-hot-breakfast/content/listen-exclusive-tom-browne-reports-the-afls-flight-partner-could-change

3 bigger ‘dedicated’ aircraft for the AFL?

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

3 bigger ‘dedicated’ aircraft for the AFL.... more A330’s? More aircraft means more pilots needed I assume.Pretty sure they don’t have any 330s to spare. My money’s on ex-JQ A320s. If so, more pilots for Network.

[dr dre]

This piece was on the radio last week. Might be some additional QF aircraft coming online for an AFL ‘partnership’ deal:

https://www.triplem.com.au/shows/the-hot-breakfast/content/listen-exclusive-tom-browne-reports-the-afls-flight-partner-could-change

3 bigger ‘dedicated’ aircraft for the AFL.... more A330’s? More aircraft means more pilots needed I assume.

Private terminal? That massive new Melbourne jet base at Tullamarine?






24 AFL rounds per year.
9 games per round.
Having a quick browse of fixtures shows about 5-6 games per round played by teams which would require a flight by one to get to match, so let's say 6.
About 50 players, coaching and support staff per team.
That's a total of only roughly 300 additional passengers for 48 travel days per year (to get there and back), and a few more for the finals.
No way anyone is dedicating any aircraft for that amount of business, let alone 3 A330's. A mining contract will create more passengers in a week than the AFL contract would in a year.
A lot of value to be gained in having the sponsorship rights of the contract, but the transportation of the players? They can put them on regularly scheduled flights.

[Vindaloo 330]

That makes good sense ‘Bug Smasher Smasher’. I guess the ex-JQ 320’s at Network would work well for this exercise. The clubs could fill the 100 odd spare seats with their members and supporters.

[Hatchet Harry]

No way anyone is dedicating any aircraft for that amount of business, let alone 3 A330's. A mining contract will create more passengers in a week than the AFL contract would in a year.
A lot of value to be gained in having the sponsorship rights of the contract, but the transportation of the players? They can put them on regularly scheduled flights.

Oh well, this is a rumour network. I hadn’t considered the numbers. Sounds like BS then.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Warning, thread drift.

be interesting to see what happens here. When JB was still at QF, he stated that they didn’t want to sign to the AFL, as the deal meant you couldn’t sponsor any other sport. Then he inherited just that when he moved to Brisbane. Be curious if he’s told the AFL to shove it. Either way, with the sentiment expressed be JB at the time, and I would assume QF’s resistance to such a clause, the AFL most likely wouldn’t be able to insist on that requirement this time.

Bring on more recruiting. Being of the “hate everything” generation in QF, it’s getting harder to get people to listen to my rants of negativity. It’s quite refreshing.

[C441]

A few years ago the Brisbane Lions would get an element of special treatment when travelling on Qantas.
One particular Captain would usually operate their flight often at lower altitudes to minimise the effects of lower external pressure on soft tissue injuries among other things.
That Captain is now on the 330 I believe!:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

The network A320s don’t/won’t do much work on the weekends.

So its highly plausible they could be the AFL machines.

[dr dre]

A few years ago the Brisbane Lions would get an element of special treatment when travelling on Qantas.
One particular Captain would usually operate their flight often at lower altitudes to minimise the effects of lower external pressure on soft tissue injuries among other things.
That Captain is now on the 330 I believe!:ok:

That would have to have been about 15 years ago. Obviously that special treatment hasn’t been working over the last few years!

[ilikecheese]

Anyone have any course info for the June/July ground schools?
Wondering if it’s strictly 78 expected for new hires here on in or is there still the odd treacle onto other fleets?
ILC

[A320 Flyer]

Don’t think there has been any other types other than the 787 since late last year. A few courses have a token 2 x 747 so you may get lucky. Divisiors are low on all SO fleets.

[cessnapete]

I’m a 10 year A330 SO. $160000 last year


How does an A330 S/O (Cruise only Co-Pilot?) get more pay than a B737 F/O? The 737 pilot is part of the 2 man operating crew at all stages of the flight, makes operational decisions, is qualified for T/Os and landings during route flying, and takes over from Capt if incapacitated etc.
The Cruise only pilot has no defined part in the aircraft operation, no Normal ,Abnormal or Emergency Checklist procedures involve a third man. Presumably if any in flight emergencies occur with the Capt in rest, he is immediately called, and retakes the front seat with the trained F/O, and the S/O again becomes an observer.
A QF S/O seems a great job with no responsibility and loads of money!
PS I Can't believe any pilot would want such a long term and unfulfilling job.

[Beer Baron]

How does an A330 S/O (Cruise only Co-Pilot?) get more pay than a B737 F/O?
They don’t. As such, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

As has been outlined earlier in the thread 737 F/O’s are making $200-240K

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

PS I Can't believe any pilot would want such a long term and unfulfilling job.

Refer to your sentence immediately before that one.

[ADawg]

Remember the literature stated "we don't hire second officers, we hire future captains"

I guess QF never thought to define "future" lol

10 years is a long time for anything.

Good luck to them - you should always run your own race in this world.

[Tankengine]

One of the best things about the whole Qantas pilot situation is choice (tempered by seniority and time).
When first hired you are allocated a type, now that type should be 787 but occasionally other types due to the company filling required places.
From then on you choose where and on what type you wish to be and any movement off your current position is awarded by seniority on what you choose to type into your LOP, (letter of preference).
737 first officer positions in Perth or Adelaide available virtually immediately if you CHOOSE!
Some pilots will want the fast promotion through the ranks and choose 737 in the West until a command, others will choose to stay longhaul as SO or FO for a long time to live in the city of their choice. For some it is : “if it’s not Boeing I aint going”, for some it is the joy of eating a crew meal on a table! Thank goodness everyone has various ideas of a perfect lifestyle as even the trips on each type have some variance.
Pay varies through types and ranks for a number of reasons, 12 year increments on established long haul types being one reason, overtime on long routes being another. Longhaul FOs are paid 65% of Captain, SOs 50%, not too hard to figure out, payrates are public.
Again, seniority permitting : it is your choice where, when and what you fly.

If you don’t think this if a fit system then don’t f$&&(*& join and THEN bitch about it, you don’t even need to interview with Qantas if you don’t choose!;)

[Keg]

How does an A330 S/O (Cruise only Co-Pilot?) get more pay than a B737 F/O? The 737 pilot is part of the 2 man operating crew at all stages of the flight, makes operational decisions, is qualified for T/Os and landings during route flying, and takes over from Capt if incapacitated etc.

When the 767 F/Os were demoted to the A380 they took a 4% hit on the hourly rate and picked up about 30% overtime for a big pay rise. It has always been thus. When I became a 767 F/O in ‘97 i was earning in the vicinity of 1/3 less than my colleagues who remained as 744 S/Os.

Improvements since then have dramatically decreased the chances of this happening but keep in mind QF have a 12 Year scale so the numbers become distorted quite quickly when a large swathe of your workforce has had little opportunity for promotion from 2009- 2016. Certainly the new S/Os on years 1 and 2 pay aren’t earning more than a 737 F/O. Those employed in August 16 are only max of year three pay and would be unlikely to as well even if they’re on the A380.

So if QF want to keep their S/O pay down the key is to be promoting people to F/O and Captain more quickly. Something they didn’t realise when they made movement to JQ prohibitively difficult.

[SandyPalms]

I’d also say that the those high salary’s for SO’s will more than likey be a thing of the past for most new joiners now. The 744 is being retired and the A380 would be full, especially now that the 744 looks like it will RIN in some form, and the change in the flying program for that type. Those that choose to stay on the A380 (if they can survive the RIN), will hold onto all the positions available with very little numbers leaving the gravy train. So I’d suspect that people choosing the 737 will increase, as it will really be the only option available.

[Street garbage]

Remember the literature stated "we don't hire second officers, we hire future captains"

I guess QF never thought to define "future" lol

10 years is a long time for anything.

Good luck to them - you should always run your own race in this world.
Future is 20 years plus, widebody east coast is 25 plus.

[dragon man]

They don’t. As such, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

As has been outlined earlier in the thread 737 F/O’s are making $200-240K

with an hourly rate of $196.60 i assume the above wage includes allowances and flying 90 hours a month?

[SandyPalms]

Dragon Man

No, those numbers are correct for about 75hrs and don’t include allowances. There are 13 bidperiods per year.

[dragon man]

<div style="text-align:left;">Thanks</div>

[Who stole my meds]

I will never understand why some pilots will be upset that others get paid more than themselves. No wonder this industry is in a downward spiral .

And I can't believe that some people on this thread call themselves Pilot's (and QF pilots to boot). Bloody disgraceful.

[bangbounceboeing]

No wonder most of Virgin have their applications in then

[mrdeux]

The Cruise only pilot has no defined part in the aircraft operation, no Normal ,Abnormal or Emergency Checklist procedures involve a third man. Presumably if any in flight emergencies occur with the Capt in rest, he is immediately called, and retakes the front seat with the trained F/O, and the S/O again becomes an observer.

If the S/O is in the seat when the proverbial happens, then he completes whatever checklist/ECAM/EICAS actions are necessary with the other pilot, whether he is the Captain or an FO. The bloke who is off duty may be called back, or he may not, but if I arrive back on the cockpit I expect the procedures to be complete.

And, having had major event when operating 3 man, the SO made himself extremely useful whilst carrying out the jobs that you dismiss.

[hinterfeld]

Hii friends nice topic

[Flydawg]

Is this the right place to ask, how long do you have to wait to hear back after qlink have done a reference check....

[FL240]

Spent years in GA in Aus and PNG, 1.5 years flying regionals in USA and currently flying the A321 in Europe. I am wanting to come back to Aus with my family eventually and so considering either going to China first or coming back sooner.

If one were to join QF tomorrow, what progression and ballpark salaries could be expected over the next 3-5 years assuming the market remained the same? If not wanting to stay an SO forever, what’s the current time to FO and then Captain if you are happy to move to junior base/fleet as required?

Thanks

[Derfred]

Spent years in GA in Aus and PNG, 1.5 years flying regionals in USA and currently flying the A321 in Europe. I am wanting to come back to Aus with my family eventually and so considering either going to China first or coming back sooner.

If one were to join QF tomorrow, what progression and ballpark salaries could be expected over the next 3-5 years assuming the market remained the same? If not wanting to stay an SO forever, what’s the current time to FO and then Captain if you are happy to move to junior base/fleet as required?

Thanks

Others may have more accurate figures but I would suggest Perth 737 F/O within 12 months (or potentially sooner after joining for those with jet experience) at AU$170-200K plus Superannuation.

Progression to widebody F/O or narrowbody CMD after that could take a lot of years (could be 12-15+), unless QF rapidly expand their fleet, which they are currently not showing any signs of doing.

Movement to East Coast 737 F/O possible after a couple of years depending on movement and recruitment.

Things have improved recently but we currently have guys who joined the airline single and are now missing their kid’s 16th birthday because they’re doing their final F/O check on a widebody.

[mrdeux]

Whilst there are people who will get FO slots almost immediately, they will then spend a long time in that seat.

Assuming the airline neither expands nor contracts, then the average time in each seat will be related to the proportion of pilots in each rank. So, as it is probably roughly 33% each, then the average career would be one third in each seat. So, I'd suggest that the 12 year SO is very much the average...and the 7 year wide body Captains are very much ancient history/mythology at this point.

The uneven recruitment has built lots of bumps into that though, and the people who joined in the expansion of around 1985 are hitting retirement age.

[FL240]

Others may have more accurate figures but I would suggest Perth 737 F/O within 12 months (or potentially sooner after joining for those with jet experience) at AU$170-200K plus Superannuation.

Progression to widebody F/O or narrowbody CMD after that could take a lot of years (could be 12-15+), unless QF rapidly expand their fleet, which they are currently not showing any signs of doing.

Movement to East Coast 737 F/O possible after a couple of years depending on movement and recruitment.

Things have improved recently but we currently have guys who joined the airline single and are now missing their kid’s 16th birthday because they’re doing their final F/O check on a widebody.

Cheers, good to have an idea so we can discuss where to from here

[34R]

Whilst time to FO on a widebody will never be quick, I'm not sure looking at those recently promoted and comparing time frames is entirely useful.

16+ years encompassing a period of no recruitment for nearly 8 years wouldn't have helped.

It will be interesting to see time to promotion time frames in 5 years when the suggested attrition rates are expected to begin to bite....

[C441]

Consider also that the number of retirements over the next ten years will be far greater than the last ten. There are still a number of pilots going to 65 (and beyond) but according to recent figures I saw, the average retirement age has been around 62 - and there are many reaching that age in the next ten years. The demise of the 744 may well accelerate that further.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of Pilot's ages at the minute. I suspect there'd be say 40% in the 50+ bracket, 40% in the 35-50 bracket and only a relative few in the under 35 bracket. That suggests that a young person (say 25-early 30's) joining now may have a longish period in the S/O and junior F/O (ie: PER or ADL based) ranks, not long in the middle and a good period as a Captain.

[cessnapete]

Whilst time to FO on a widebody will never be quick, I'm not sure looking at those recently promoted and comparing time frames is entirely useful.

16+ years encompassing a period of no recruitment for nearly 8 years wouldn't have helped.

It will be interesting to see time to promotion time frames in 5 years when the suggested attrition rates are expected to begin to bite....

34R
Long way to relocate, but in UK, my Airline in last couple of years recruiting DEP F/O direct on A380/B744/787/777. Wide Body F/O from day one!!

[A320 Flyer]

Consider also that the number of retirements over the next ten years will be far greater than the last ten. There are still a number of pilots going to 65 (and beyond) but according to recent figures I saw, the average retirement age has been around 62 - and there are many reaching that age in the next ten years. The demise of the 744 may well accelerate that further.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of Pilot's ages at the minute. I suspect there'd be say 40% in the 50+ bracket, 40% in the 35-50 bracket and only a relative few in the under 35 bracket. That suggests that a young person (say 25-early 30's) joining now may have a longish period in the S/O and junior F/O (ie: PER or ADL based) ranks, not long in the middle and a good period as a Captain.

lets hope so

[goose1]

Within about 6-7 years 50% of qantas pilots will be aged in excess of 60!

[Trigger Happy]

Ceesnapete, details of the airline please. Recruiting?

[Tankengine]

Within about 6-7 years 50% of qantas pilots will be aged in excess of 60!
Not everyone will go to 60. 747 retirement will tempt some to leave early.

[framer]

Within about 6-7 years 50% of qantas pilots will be aged in excess of 60!
i don’t know how many pilots Qantas have but the above is a pretty interesting fact if you are running an airline in this environment.
If the above is true, if QF have 2000 pilots,( I have no idea) and if the average age of retirement is 62, then you are training 100 pilots off the street a year for the next nine years just to stand still. ( any plans for expansion?) Of course with every retirement comes a command training requirement and an F/O training requirement as well......but wait, we’ll need someone to train and check them so we’ll have to run quite a few TRI courses quick smart.
There is going to be one heck of a lot of training going on by people who are not yet trainers.
interesting times ahead for sure.

[cessnapete]

Ceesnapete, details of the airline please. Recruiting?

BA, in last 2/3 years targeted recruiting due an acute shortage on LH types.(HR cockup!) BA pay is more directed to Seniority not just size of aircraft.
For a LH Widebody DEP. 2000 hrs ATPL. at least a 1000 hours recent on Jets over 25Tonne or Turbo prop over 50T. i.e. suitable for zero hour hour Base Training on Level D sims.
Cadet Pilots from accredited Training Schools taken with less experience, 250 hours+ total for SH types min Frozen ATPL. MEP/IR.

[romeocharlie]

BA, in last 2/3 years targeted recruiting due an acute shortage on LH types.(HR cockup!) BA pay is more directed to Seniority not just size of aircraft.
For a LH Widebody DEP. 2000 hrs ATPL. at least a 1000 hours recent on Jets over 25Tonne or Turbo prop over 50T. i.e. suitable for zero hour hour Base Training on Level D sims.
Cadet Pilots from accredited Training Schools taken with less experience, 250 hours+ total for SH types min Frozen ATPL. MEP/IR.

The way your previous posts read, we should all just apply for BA. Small problem being the requirements. EASA licence and the right to live and work in the UK excludes (and I say this generally) everyone on this particular thread. It's akin to posing on the BA forum and saying everyone should work for Qantas, but they require an Australian ATPL and right to live and work in Aus. Personally, would've loved the opportunity to fly for BA, and would've considered acquiring an EASA licence if I met the second requirement, but I don't.

They're both legacy carriers, part of a dying breed, hence why people want to work for both. Having said that, you still need to get in!

[Tricia Takanawa]

Cessnaplate, we need to compare like for like though. A PP 34 BA LH DEP (New joiner straight to LH in BA) will net less than a new joiner SO at QF. I would hazard a guess, they will work harder, suffer less bidding satisfaction due to seniority rather than rotating bidding, and have a much more expensive cost of living if living close to their base. BA is only legacy in name now. For a decent salary and lifestyle most would be better at EZY, Ryanair, and various other low cost carriers.

[maggot]

Crikey. BA is more than fine. This thread is probably more for those that want to live in Oz though

[Rated De]

In demographics is destiny.

[mrdeux]

Not everyone will go to 60. 747 retirement will tempt some to leave early.
Only if there is a package on offer. Otherwise they may as well push on to the 380...if only to stir the pot.

[C441]

Only if there is a package on offer.
According to those who should know, the company are adamant that there will be no VR package offered at the end of the 744's life.

What will be interesting is if the A380 loses some of the high-value (overtime) flying between now and then or soon after. The Melbourne base has already seen a substantial decrease in this flying with the loss of DXB-LHR. There is certainly still plenty there for the senior pilots in each rank but for those migrating from the 744 who'll be relatively junior, a move to the 787 may be financially equivalent - and it's a Boeing!

[maggot]

According to those who should know, the company are adamant that there will be no VR package offered at the end of the 744's life.

Which pretty much makes it a guarantee

[SandyPalms]

Company Thought Bubble:
Send any who can displace to the A380, but don’t displace. Carry a surplus which pushes the divisor down to 160 for many years. Those pilots reaching the MRA will then retire based on 160 hours instead of 180 based on their last 3 bid periods. I don’t know what the money difference would be.
Calling their bluff? I can’t see them displacing anybody. But I guess there is no guarantee that divisors will stay high on the 747.

[Keg]

The ROSO on a training course I think is generally considered to be about two years. Rather than offering a VR package of X weeks per year worked the company may better off offering a flat fee of about a couple of hundred K with associated VR tax concessions. That’d be a win/ win I reckon and would probably save some double training over a period of a couple of years.

I guess we will know more when the company puts out the plan regarding the retirement of aeroplanes and it’s impact on 744 pilot numbers.

[framer]

What’s a divisor?

[Keg]

What’s a divisor?

Credit hours per 8 Weeks.

[Tankengine]

Only if there is a package on offer. Otherwise they may as well push on to the 380...if only to stir the pot.
True, if they could be stuffed. Go sick when the course gets hard etc.
A package might be cheaper. ;)

[maggot]

Usually the target for the roster build... Ie. 160-180 credits per 8 week roster

[Tankengine]

Company Thought Bubble:
Send any who can displace to the A380, but don’t displace. Carry a surplus which pushes the divisor down to 160 for many years. Those pilots reaching the MRA will then retire based on 160 hours instead of 180 based on their last 3 bid periods. I don’t know what the money difference would be.
If you are talking super there would be no change.

[AerocatS2A]

What’s a divisor?
You should have a read of their agreement, it's like War and Peace!

[Keg]

Maybe. But like the book War and Peace, it serves a pretty useful purpose.

[decoder]

You should have a read of their agreement, it's like War and Peace!

Did anyone make it to the end?

[*Lancer*]

Tankengine, QSL defined benefit super is based on a pilot’s final average salary. Lower final average salary = less super. So if pilots are working the minimum, rather than the maximum number of hours = less super.

[DirectAnywhere]

Of the EA? Yeah, it has some signatures on it. Best reading in the whole document. I’ll give you a tip too, the last paragraph of War and Peace bears a striking resemblance to the state of mind it has been necessary to maintain for the last 10+ years.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Tankengine, QSL defined benefit super is based on a pilot’s final average salary. Lower final average salary = less super. So if pilots are working the minimum, rather than the maximum number of hours = less super.

Doesn’t FAS assume 170hrs divisor?

[JPJP]

the last paragraph of War and Peace bears a striking resemblance to the state of mind it has been necessary to maintain for the last 10+ years.

[IMG]https://youtu.be/aNUr__-VZeQ


:)

[Tankengine]

Tankengine, QSL defined benefit super is based on a pilot’s final average salary. Lower final average salary = less super. So if pilots are working the minimum, rather than the maximum number of hours = less super.
FAS is defined, it is not related to what you actually fly.
For div 1 and 2 it is 132hrs per bid period, I think 170hrs for Div3.

[*Lancer*]

Fair enough. That may make displacements more likely then.

[Keg]

Tankengine, QSL defined benefit super is based on a pilot’s final average salary. Lower final average salary = less super. So if pilots are working the minimum, rather than the maximum number of hours = less super.

380 Captains would be almost exclusively Div 2 or Div 6. Either way the divisor or what they earned in the preceding three years is meaningless when it comes to super. Div 2 is based on best three years to 55. Div 6 is an amount (probably 17.6% of 132 hours of which you can only sal sac $25K in total per annum) irrespective of divisor.

Not sure about the senior 744 F/Os who may displace to 380 on low divisors. Different kettle of fish.

[Tankengine]

My theory is that the 747 will be around until “project sunrise” is about to arrive giving a few more options.
In any case it will be a ****fight. Of course if fuel prices spike then it will go on time or earlier.

[ruprecht]

My theory is that the 747 will be around until “project sunrise” is about to arrive giving a few more options.
That’d be my guess.

[Chad Gates]

For those interested. Memo: 152 new hires planned next financial year 18-19. Already taken over 200.

[SandyPalms]

Redundancy for the 744 won't happen. Displacing from the A380 would be cheaper than the cost of replacing everyone from below due to the cascading upwards effect. Probably 2 courses run to displace, 5 or 6 to replace after a redundancy. If someone want to stir the pot, they'd be better off retiring.

And in truth, I'd much rather they offer redundancy, but I'm almost positive they won't.

[JPJP]

Redundancy for the 744 won't happen. Displacing from the A380 would be cheaper than the cost of replacing everyone from below due to the cascading upwards effect. Probably 2 courses run to displace, 5 or 6 to replace after a redundancy. If someone want to stir the pot, they'd be better off retiring.

And in truth, I'd much rather they offer redundancy, but I'm almost positive they won't.

I’m curious Sandy. Generally (at various airlines) a displacement bid entitles the ‘displaced’ to a host of expensive options​​​​​​ - The right to take any seat that they can hold in seniority, moving allowances et. The domino effect below them (the people that they displace) is the same. Generally causing an expensive waterfall effect. As you said.

Under the Qantas long haul EBA, are they able to displace of a fleet (A380) in order to adjust the manning on another fleet (744) ?

[SandyPalms]

I’m curious Sandy. Generally (at various airlines) a displacement bid entitles the ‘displaced’ to a host of expensive options​​​​​​ - The right to take any seat that they can hold in seniority, moving allowances et. The domino effect below them (the people that they displace) is the same. Generally causing an expensive waterfall effect. As you said.

Under the Qantas long haul EBA, are they able to displace of a fleet (A380) in order to adjust the manning on another fleet (744) ?





Generally speaking you are correct. In QF there are some complexities as the displacing pilots must be "NAMED" in the Reduction in Numbers process, which is just as it sounds, their name must appear on the Flight Standing Order.
In this case, the 744/Capt will displace an A380/Capt. That A380/Capt will most likely bid for 787 (as the next 787 bid will most likely include a Sydney Base) which is a training course that must be done irrespective of the 744 RIN. So there you go, 2 courses and the RIN (in this one case) is finished. The domino effect you speak of in this case, doesn't happen.
The same can be said for the A330 as training is going at pace on that aircraft also, however there would be an extra course in that scenario, but thats only 3.
With a redundancy, that 787 course will be filled by an A330/Capt, which will be filled by a 737/Capt which will be filled by an A330/FO which will be filled by a 737/FO which will be....................... and so on. In my opinion, this RIN will save them money. The way I see it, they won't offer redundancy.

[Tankengine]

Generally speaking you are correct. In QF there are some complexities as the displacing pilots must be "NAMED" in the Reduction in Numbers process, which is just as it sounds, their name must appear on the Flight Standing Order.
In this case, the 744/Capt will displace an A380/Capt. That A380/Capt will most likely bid for 787 (as the next 787 bid will most likely include a Sydney Base) which is a training course that must be done irrespective of the 744 RIN. So there you go, 2 courses and the RIN (in this one case) is finished. The domino effect you speak of in this case, doesn't happen.
The same can be said for the A330 as training is going at pace on that aircraft also, however there would be an extra course in that scenario, but thats only 3.
With a redundancy, that 787 course will be filled by an A330/Capt, which will be filled by a 737/Capt which will be filled by an A330/FO which will be filled by a 737/FO which will be....................... and so on. In my opinion, this RIN will save them money. The way I see it, they won't offer redundancy.
Except for the retraining once the Rinned 747 Captain retires six months after checking out on the 380 due to the f$&@ you attitude most of us have about management now!

[Rated De]

It would appear that the forebears that negotiated this element of the contract, did so with a clear understanding of how fickle airline management can be.

Anything that adds cost and complexity to a furlough process is by design a worthy thing. hiring pilots and 'down training' will make for an interesting optic!

Can Qantas management circumvent it?

[maggot]

I dunnoBut it does seem like qf has had the knack of hiring some variations of ages etc, given the supply pool.
unless you happen to work for a subsidiary that is, of course

[Keg]

It depends a little too on whether there is more than one RIN. If there is only one RIN then the most senior 744 pilot named displaces the most junior A380 Captain. Then the next most senior displaces the next most junior. There comes a ‘cut over’ point at which the 744 Captain will still have Pilots junior to them on the A380 but those A380 pilots have already been displaced. Therefore the 744 pilot can’t displace to the A380.

I agree with Tankengine. There is a cutover point also on the return of service from the 744 driver displacing. If Qantas only gets 12-18 months out of them before having to re-train for their position once they retire they may decide to throw a couple of hundred K at them to get them to go. Certainly a few of 744 Captains I’ve spoken to reckon they don’t intend to stick around too long if they’re not offered cash to go. Essentially they’ll ‘earn’ what they should have received via VR and then go. Double training will occur anyway.

eg if the RIN were done today, no one on the 744 below about seniority 130 would get to the A380.

[Capt Kremin]

A senior flight ops manager is on the record as saying that he doesn't believe that a RIN is going to happen. Add to that the last base ops update which stated that most 747 pilots will have "promotional opportunities" on to other fleets including the 737, with a few for whom "other options" will have to be found.

I find this to be very presumptuous and possibly a not so subtle attempt by Flight Ops to avoid the RIN procedure very clearly delineated in the CA.

It presumes that many FO's and SO's who have hitherto avoided the "promotional opportunities" of the 737 and even the A330 till now are going to bid for them. None of the Captains on the type will consider the 787 a "promotional opportunity" either. So with few or no slots on an already over-subscribed A380 in each rank, no vertical promotion on to either the 787 or the A380 permitted (at this time), one wonders where these promotional slots are?

If no-one bids off the type a RIN is inevitable. Be advised accordingly

[H-Dog]

Except for the retraining once the Rinned 747 Captain retires six months after checking out on the 380 due to the f$&@ you attitude most of us have about management now!
Have heard this mentioned a few times, that guys are going to stick it to management by taking a slot and then leaving half way through training or shortly after finishing. If you think management will lose any sleep over this you are delusional. The only people that you will be sticking it to are your fellow pilots below you in seniority who otherwise would have had that spot. Please don’t do this.

[Tuner 2]

Have heard this mentioned a few times, that guys are going to stick it to management by taking a slot and then leaving half way through training or shortly after finishing. If you think management will lose any sleep over this you are delusional. The only people that you will be sticking it to are your fellow pilots below you in seniority who otherwise would have had that spot. Please don’t do this.

Hear hear. You are also sticking it to your colleagues who now have to fly more hours and be assigned more work because you didn't show up

[Tankengine]

Hear hear. You are also sticking it to your colleagues who now have to fly more hours and be assigned more work because you didn't show up
So now nobody can retire when they want to? What age are you going to retire, your plan or when the company decides they don’t want your aircraft?
Remember, they are going to get rid of the Jumbo, no option to stay on it for a planned year or two longer so if timing means doing a course and then retiring then that is what some will do.
The only effect on junior pilots is that of waiting for a slot based on seniority, ops normal.
On the other hand if VR caused anyone to leave early then junior pilots would benefit!

[Tankengine]

Have heard this mentioned a few times, that guys are going to stick it to management by taking a slot and then leaving half way through training or shortly after finishing. If you think management will lose any sleep over this you are delusional. The only people that you will be sticking it to are your fellow pilots below you in seniority who otherwise would have had that spot. Please don’t do this.
You should be more worried about those that don’t leave, (some even over 65 ), they are the ones stopping you from getting a slot. I have never seen anyone worried about senior pilots leaving early before! ;)

[Rabbitwear]

If you want to fly a 380 , move to Emirates !

[C441]

If you want to fly a 380 , move to Emirates !

Many of the 744 Pilots don’t want to fly the A380 or any other ‘bus; that’s why they’re still on the jumbo.
However to protect their current income they’ll have to move to the 380 as the 787 will be an overall pay reduction.

[maggot]

Don't wanna fly a bus?

Diddums

[josephfeatherweight]

I have never seen anyone worried about senior pilots leaving early before! https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif
Absolutely - you blokes don't know what the hell you want!!