Qantas Recruitment

[Mr Google Head]

Hi everyone,

*long post incoming*
I've read through the previous 50 pages of this thread, took me a while! I didn't really find the answer that I was looking for, but knowing me I probably overlooked it in the 50 pages I read :p

I'm currently 18 and have always wanted to become a pilot for Qantas since I was in kindergarten. When I was 16 I disregarded the dream job of a pilot and I really can't remember why I did, I think it was because mum wanted me to stay on the ground if I'm to be honest! So I moved onto something else that was in aviation which was Air Traffic Control, but of course a year later I got rid of that for some reason (but this time I don't know why). Then I moved onto IT in uni (which I'm doing now), even with my GPA of 7, I started to think about the Qantas Group Pilot Academy, long story short I *think* I have my eyes back on aviation again.

I've read a few conflicting thoughts on the actual academy throughout the 50 pages that I have read, some say it's just a gimmick and you'll end up no where whereas some say that it would be good. People say that you should get into piloting whilst your young for seniority (or just get into the airline you want your career at whilst your young), but is it just gonna give me a huge debt and no job at all? Considering that it'll cost me somewhere around $125,000, which I can loan, does it even qualify me for direct entry into Qantas? I was looking at the requirements for direct entry (either as SO or FO) and it seemed higher than what you actually get in the academy? Could someone help answer that? The academy would probably be the best option for me, I don't have the money to train through a flight school in my local area.

I've also read someone said that it is Qantas Group Pilot Academy, so does that mean QantasLink and Jetstar too?

I've read heaps of things online about the life as a pilot, and I understand that this is a Qantas recruitment thread, and whilst I'd be doing it for the love of planes since I have been young and not for the money at all, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this thread about the pay of Capt/FO/SO? I've gone through the EBA of Qantas but it's all dutch to me :p

All in all I just really want to know is it worth it? Will it lead into a career with Qantas or just give me a big debt? FO or SO? Do I just apply for jobs after the academy as I'd be qualified from the academy? I see that I can lead into the Qantas Future Pilot Program from the academy, but they're 'selected' people. I assume you need to be a high performer. Surely the application questions into the academy are just a short amount? They were pretty basic, didn't seem like an application at all! I've gone over the website a million times so I essentially know the whole academy website inside out, but I have applied for an ATC job which I should hear back from this week. What's the way to go? I'll still be waiting for months to hear back from Qantas, but even then, what's their selection process?

I think that's all for now, I'd still have a million things in my mind that I needed to ask but I just can't think of it all right now.

Thanks everyone :)

I can’t answer most of your questions but from what I’ve seen in the industry - especially of ‘career change’ types...if your only acceptable outcome is a job with Qantas mainline then you probably don’t have the required passion to survive the first few years in the industry without bailing. I don’t mean this to sound harsh.

[FLGOFF]

I haven't read the whole thread here and I'm not sure if its been discussed previously (probably has), but going through this Qantas Academy, chances are you won't get the golden ticket into the Qantas Group upon graduation unless they become desperate again. Assuming you don't, you're then going to be packing your bags and heading up north like many others, except you're going to be going with the Qantas academy on your resume which is not a good look in my opinion. Questions might be asked. Why didn't you make the cut? Will you have the Qantas Workday tab open all day at work checking for the next opening? Seems far better to build a solid foundation in aviation through a neutral entity than a group that specialises in selling hopes and dreams.

As for the Qantas Future Pilot Program, once again it all depends on the current job climate. Last year they were desperate and plenty of opportunities for those who met the requirements. Not so lucky for those going through this year, far fewer places being offered and there's a very real chance that you can spend the 10K on the course at FTA and then be given a "Thanks but no thanks" or if you're "lucky", "Congratulations, you've made it through to the hold file, we'll get in contact if we need you".

[engine out]

The Qantas Academy is no guarantee of a job with mainline. If you do get through you may be placed on the hold file for the Qantas group. Most likely that would lead to an offer in Qlink or Jetstar (possibly Network aviation, Jetconnect, EFA). If you end up with one of these the door is not shut to mainline but doesn’t make it any easier to get in. It would be extremely doubtful that at completion of the course you would get any kind of direct entry as an SO into Qantas.

[morno]

Considering that it'll cost me somewhere around $125,000, which I can loan.......... The academy would probably be the best option for me, I don't have the money to train through a flight school in my local area

Forgive me if I’m missing something, because I don’t know much about the Dream Academy, but a local flying school these days I’m pretty sure will cost you a lot less than $125k for much the same outcome at the end (licenses, ratings etc.). So I don’t understand why you can get a loan for $125k for the Dream Academy, but not to do it through your local flying school?

If there’s no guarantee of a job at the end I don’t think I’d want to be going through them.

Have a look around the industry and see how many different options you have. Heaps!! Don’t close off 3/4 of them by going through somewhere that may be looked down upon for its original purpose (getting a job with QF), but that hasn’t happened yet however could happen soon leaving someone to have to replace you. I know I wouldn’t commit to hiring you if I saw it on your resume.

[bding]

So I don’t understand why you can get a loan for $125k for the Dream Academy, but not to do it through your local flying school?

I didn't think I could loan for a local flying school through government assistance, but I definitely cannot afford either one of them out of my pocket, or get a loan from a bank.


Have a look around the industry and see how many different options you have. Heaps!! Don’t close off 3/4 of them by going through somewhere that may be looked down upon for its original purpose (getting a job with QF), but that hasn’t happened yet however could happen soon leaving someone to have to replace you. I know I wouldn’t commit to hiring you if I saw it on your resume. I'd be fine working with QantasLink, in fact I think it would be cool to start off with considering I am living in a regional town myself. But I would, of course, eventually want to move up into Qantas itself.
if your only acceptable outcome is a job with Qantas mainline then you probably don’t have the required passion to survive the first few years in the industry without bailing. I don’t mean this to sound harsh.

I wasn't saying that this is the only outcome I wanted, I just thought that must've been the outcome of what the academy would open you up to.

"Congratulations, you've made it through to the hold file, we'll get in contact if we need you".
I bet that is one very big hold file.

[dr dre]

I haven't read the whole thread here and I'm not sure if its been discussed previously (probably has), but going through this Qantas Academy, chances are you won't get the golden ticket into the Qantas Group upon graduation unless they become desperate again. Assuming you don't, you're then going to be packing your bags and heading up north like many others, except you're going to be going with the Qantas academy on your resume which is not a good look in my opinion. Questions might be asked. Why didn't you make the cut? Will you have the Qantas Workday tab open all day at work checking for the next opening? Seems far better to build a solid foundation in aviation through a neutral entity than a group that specialises in selling hopes and dreams.

As for the Qantas Future Pilot Program, once again it all depends on the current job climate. Last year they were desperate and plenty of opportunities for those who met the requirements. Not so lucky for those going through this year, far fewer places being offered and there's a very real chance that you can spend the 10K on the course at FTA and then be given a "Thanks but no thanks" or if you're "lucky", "Congratulations, you've made it through to the hold file, we'll get in contact if we need you".

On other hand, if what they are saying about this academy are correct they will be producing several hundred pilots a year. Will every single one of them be guaranteed a job in the group? No, but if they’re missing out it’ll be unlikely anyone from GA or a normal flying school will be able to gain employment in the group if not all Academy graduates are employed.

Lots of naysayers here were quite confident in predicting the Academy would never eventuate, well they’ve just started their first course with more to come, and in greater numbers.

For those who went through the Cadetship roughly 10 years ago but weren’t able to gain employment into mainline most were able to get into entities like Qlink or JQ rather rapidly so any fears that being trained via the cadet route would “taint” their reputation within the industry didn’t eventuate.

[morno]

That’s because unless the candidate disclosed that they were a Qantas cadet, there was no way of knowing. If someone asks you where you learnt to fly, it’s harder to hide it if the place is called “Qantas”.

Plus, 10 years ago the industry was a very different place

[dr dre]

That’s because unless the candidate disclosed that they were a Qantas cadet, there was no way of knowing. If someone asks you where you learnt to fly, it’s harder to hide it if the place is called “Qantas”.

The industry isn’t that big. People know. They ask you in interviews, and people honestly answer. And despite what some want to believe “cadet” isn’t a poison chalice.

I know a lot of people here want to believe that anyone trained through a Cadetship/traineeship/Academy is “tainted goods”, that’s OK, believe what you want. Doesn’t make it true.

[mplpilot]

Hi guys, just wondering if anybody on this thread currently working in Australia, for any of the major players (Qantas Group, VOZ Group, Alliance, etc.), has gone through the CASA licence conversion process from Europe? I am an Aussie currently living and working in Europe flying regional jets, but my hope is to move back to Australia once I have unfrozen my ATPL, and obviously feel ready.
If you have been through the process, how do you find working in Australia in comparison to Europe/UK?
And; Did the conversion process pose any significant questions during any interviews?

For anybody wanting background info, I did my training in Europe with the hope that I would have a greater chance of gaining employment (greater population + more airlines). It's also (appears) far easier to come from Europe to Aus due to CASA's recognition of the EASA ATPL.

I understand this is a Qantas recruitment thread, so I do apologise in advance if this post doesn't belong here.

Many Thanks,
C

[Ollie Onion]

I went through the conversion process about 9 years ago after having flown in the UK for 12 years. It was a nightmare paperwork wise but fairly straight forward. You have to sit Human Factors, CPL Air Law, ATPL Air Law and if you have never held an CASA issued IR before then you also need to do the IREX exam. What was frustrating was that you needed to pass CPL Air Law prior to being able to book ATPL Air Law which was an issue considering I did all 4 exams in 5 days and it was a bit of a variable as to whether I would get an ATPL air law slot. I had to do an IR exam in a Duchess to get the IR initial issued, to do the flight test I had to get a Certificate of Validation issued by CASA based on my JAR ATPL and that took me about 10 months as CASA kept requesting additional crap from the UK CAA. I know that CASA have now introduced the ATPL flight test so I don't know how that works into the process now.

I did all the theory through the Advanced Flight Theory who at the time offered a 'Foreign ATPL' conversion pack that focussed purely on the just the exams for conversion ( Overseas Convert | Advanced Flight Theory (http://aft.com.au/cms/?page_id=136), it was initially very overwhelming when it all arrived in the UK but once you get your head around the AIP, CAO's and CAR's it was actually straight forward. Use the Bob Tait book for the IREX study. I had no issues with the exams as there are plenty of practice papers available. The flying portion I did in Perth ad Ad Astra who once again had a 10 hour IR prep course specifically for Foreign Pilots 5 hours ground trainer, 1 practice flight test in the Duchess followed by the real thing. That took me 3 days for the flying component.

As for employment, I got job offers from Jetstar and Jetconnect on the condition that I would get my OZ ATPL prior to starting, Virgin told me that they didn't accept ATPL's from a foreign conversion and if I wanted an interview with them I would have to sit ALL the ATPL exams so they could see evidence of passing the lot so I didn't bother pursuing Virgin any further. Qantas and Air NZ were years away from recruitment at the time so I didn't bother but I have had a number of mates since get jobs with both after a stint overseas. Air NZ even did the ATPL flight test for them during their conversion training.

As for flying in OZ after many years in Europe, be prepared to go back in time. It is very much GA in Jets, the rules, regulations and CASA are like they are in a time warp. The airspace is a mess, ATC will let you fly out of controlled airspace during descent into major airports and then report you for it, on the other hand it is OK to flying high performance jets into uncontrolled airports mixing with GA traffic on a CTAF frequency. Airport facilities are farcical, when I arrived there wasn't a single CAT II or III approach in the country although a few exist now, ATC into SYD and MEL is often a mess, everyone says 'but they are dealing with a lot of traffic', They need to see how it is done well oversea's. On the plus side, the airline I ended up working for is really enjoyable, the crews are good, training has been fantastic and since the change over to Part 61 licences and EBT sim training it is the most enjoyable checking environment I have encountered. (ALL PERSONAL OPINION OF COURSE)

So all in all, contact CASA and get a breakdown of what is needed, if there is anything CASA related then get that underway ASAP as the exam and flying side is quite easy to organise and get underway. The job market has been quite good although may be slowing a bit and be prepared for a lot of head scratching when you are exposed to some of the CASA rules and regs which may suit a C182 charter but don't seem to be appropriate for a Jet.

Good luck

[CaptainSouth]

The Qantas academy is run by FTA.
It is a Qantas Academy in name only. A way of “ restocking GA”, not a conduit for QF pilots.
Pilot selection is carried out by FTA, sometimes not as QF would choose.
i don’t believe graduating pilots will have leg up on a standard GA pilot, other than they were chosen from a thousand applicants, and were the best of the lot.
I believe the only real worry for anyone wanting to get into QF is that the academy plans to produce 250 new pilots per annum when up and running. More than currently appear each year.
more competition for jobs because of a bigger pool to choose from.

[Berealgetreal]

Virgin told me that they didn't accept ATPL's from a foreign conversion and if I wanted an interview with them I would have to sit ALL the ATPL exams so they could see evidence of passing the lot so I didn't bother pursuing Virgin any further.

hahahaa, oh god usual rocket science from Virgin.
On a side note good thing you are converting EASA to CASA and not the other way.

[Global Aviator]

hahahaa, oh god usual rocket science from Virgin.
On a side note good thing you are converting EASA to CASA and not the other way.



I think you will find QF requires this as well.

[DUXNUTZ]

[QUOTE=
Virgin told me that they didn't accept ATPL's from a foreign conversion and if I wanted an interview with them I would have to sit ALL the ATPL exams so they could see evidence of passing the lot so I didn't bother pursuing Virgin any further.

[/QUOTE]

Lol, many present and former pilots flying there with a converted ATPL.

[stillcallozhome]

I think you will find QF requires this as well.


incorrect.

[Ollie Onion]

Lol, many present and former pilots flying there with a converted ATPL.

hey, i can only go on what they told me at the time. It may have been a nice way to tell me to piss off. :-)

[Capt Fathom]

Both Virgin and Qantas had that ATPL requirement. It may have changed?

[hestonfysh]

Does anyone have the inside line on future recruitment? Internal EOI? External recruitment? Current hold file status?

[MajorLemond]

That hold file seems to be holdin’ out on everyone...

[High_To_Low]

hestonfysh,

I know of internals starting in Dec, Feb, Mar and Apr (don’t think there is a Jan course and don’t think courses have been assigned past Apr but not 100% sure on this) all been given B787 PER but am hearing from a mate starting in Dec that there are Airbus 330 SYD spots being allocated as well.

Talk is the next round should open up in Nov/Dec (or maybe early next year) for internals. Not sure on externals.

hope that helps

[Sparrows.]

Definitely a Jan course. Internal mate got 787 Per for Jan

[Global Aviator]

incorrect.

Certainly used to!

[stillcallozhome]

Certainly used to!

I had been warned a long time ago about it but nothing mentioned about it when going through the process years ago. Got an ATPL - tick in the box and on to the next question. The days of asking for individual ATPL scores are long gone. As they should be.

[Kaan Kublay]

Hi, I am just trying to get some information with the academy. How successful would the outcome be for myself and do you think it is worth all the money and time to go through the academy rather than a university and try for the future pilot program?
Thanks.

[disgruntled_]

Have any External applicants been given a start date? Or is it just internals only. I figure they mix the courses with external and internals but seems to be getting late in the year.
​​​​​​

[hito]

Hi guys,
Regarding the Qantas direct entry SO requirement of 250 hours in Command of a powered fixed wing aeroplane and 1000 hours as Co-Pilot of a multi crew, multi engine turbine aeroplane (excluding hours In Command Under Supervision);
Does anyone know if some of the 250 PIC hours can be in an RA-Aus registered plane i.e. a combination of VH registered aircraft and RA-Aus?

Thanks!

[Overspeed1]

They only ask for a full transcript if you don’t have an ATPL. If you have an ATPL all they ask for is a copy of your license.

[A320 Flyer]

”QF mainline still (as they always) have ask for a CASA transcript showing all ATPL & other exam attempts“

I wouldn’t even know where mine are..... have them a copy of my license with an ATPL on it in 2016 at the interview and the rest is history.....

[stillcallozhome]

You would be wrong stillcallhome that is why QF mainline still (as they always) have ask for a CASA transcript showing all ATPL & other exam attempts

They are interested in how many attempts

They must have had temps in during my recruitment process then as this was not the case. Maybe you did your assessment days prior to mine and it has changed since? I can say 100% they did not check or even ask me. A copy of my CASA ATPL was all that was required.

[...think or thwim]

So now that we're in the year 2020 have any externals been contacted re start dates for Feb through to June?? Still on hold after 2 and a bit years and still no word

[MajorLemond]

I know of 2 people recently getting course dates in May (external) and June (internal) this year.

The wheels seem to be moving again.

[FFG 02]

A course starting tomorrow, then one at the beginning of March.

Have heard that all internal transfers are being postponed.
Yet I got an email today from a coaching service saying that internal recruitment opening up again tomorrow?

[ChaseIt]

A course starting tomorrow, then one at the beginning of March.

Have heard that all internal transfers are being postponed.
Yet I got an email today from a coaching service saying that internal recruitment opening up again tomorrow?

email I got indicated internal vacancy advertisement has been postponed whilst they focus on coronavirus crisis management

[ANCDU]

I think if it’s anything like happened with SARS unfortunately all recruiting will stop soon.

[hillbillybob]

Are any other group pilots having difficulty locating the QF mainline application link on Workday?

supposedly hasn't gone up yet due to delays at QCC

[hestonfysh]

Are any other group pilots having difficulty locating the QF mainline application link on Workday?

That is because it does not exist. Blame the coronavirus if you like. Get comfortable in you current seat is my advice.

[cLeArIcE]

supposedly hasn't gone up yet due to delays at QCC
Probably beefing up their IT system as they know 90% of JQ will apply :E. I'm sure that if they open external half of VA will too. I know I will.

[crosscutter]

Recruitment suspended.

asx announcement

[RustyFlyerBoy]

Hi All,

Was just wondering about the requirement to show Result Advice (RA) and Knowledge Deficiency Report (KDR) for each subject as per the trainee-second-officer-minimum-requirements.pdf. Someone else posted this question recently and it seems like it has been answered both yes and no. Can anyone offer a more definite answer? Wondering if I am disqualified from QF for this reason?

Pondering a permanent return to Oz after 15 years flying overseas. I left Oz with a CPL / MECIR and obtained my ATPL overseas. Later on I obtained the Aus ATPL through the two exam conversion, so obviously don't have passes in all ATPL subjects. Furthermore, I anticipate being able to return in about two years. It is still too early to apply now or is that about the right amount of lead time?

Thanks.

[Chris2303]

Recruitment suspended.

asx announcement

Perhaps this has something to do with it

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-and-jetstar-cut-flights-in-response-to-coronavirus/

[normanton]

Well not really. The internal announcement says they will stop recruiting for non-essential roles. Usually this excludes pilots / cabin crew.

Has anyone with a start date had it cancelled?

[Chris2303]

Well not really. The internal announcement says they will stop recruiting for non-essential roles. Usually this excludes pilots / cabin crew.

Has anyone with a start date had it cancelled?

I meant the reduction in flying

[Ollie Onion]

Jetstar has suspended ALL pilot recruitment so I assume Qantas will be the same.

[stillcallozhome]

Hi All,

Was just wondering about the requirement to show Result Advice (RA) and Knowledge Deficiency Report (KDR) for each subject as per the trainee-second-officer-minimum-requirements.pdf. Someone else posted this question recently and it seems like it has been answered both yes and no. Can anyone offer a more definite answer? Wondering if I am disqualified from QF for this reason?

Pondering a permanent return to Oz after 15 years flying overseas. I left Oz with a CPL / MECIR and obtained my ATPL overseas. Later on I obtained the Aus ATPL through the two exam conversion, so obviously don't have passes in all ATPL subjects. Furthermore, I anticipate being able to return in about two years. It is still too early to apply now or is that about the right amount of lead time?

Thanks.

Interviewed about 3 years ago. All I showed was my ATPL. No KDR info required. Not even a mention of it so no need to stress.

SCOH

[das Uber Soldat]

Jetstar has suspended ALL pilot recruitment so I assume Qantas will be the same.
Not for pilots, not yet.

[dr dre]

Aside from that - no recruitment in QF group this year

Absolutely zero evidence backing that statement up.

Travel will resume back to normal once the northern hemisphere winter is over and the flu season ends.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Travel will resume back to normal once the northern hemisphere winter is over and the flu season ends.

Where is the evidence for your statement? There is always a large amount of uncertainty about the the course of history in the future. Suggested reading "Fooled by Randomness" & "The Black Swan" by Nicholas N Taleb and Exploring gambles reveals foundational difficulty behind economic theory (and a solution) (https://phys.org/news/2016-02-exploring-gambles-reveals-foundational-difficulty.html)

https://scx2.b-cdn.net/gfx/news/hires/2016/exploringgam.jpg

Parallel worlds branching into the future, with reality selecting one trajectory through the space of possibilities. Credit: Peters and Gell-Mann

Risk can be defined as the possibility of many possible future outcomes, of which only one will become reality. The simple fact is we just don't know how things are going to work out with this virus.

On Dec 1 2019 could anyone have predicted that 760 million people in China would be in some sort of lockdown within 3 months? Clearly the virtual shutdown for an extended period time of the Chinese economy is going to have a highly disruptive effect even if all future infections of this virus ceased tomorrow. A lot of economic damage is already baked in regardless of the future course of the virus.

Residential lockdowns of varying strictness — from checkpoints at building entrances to hard limits on going outdoors — now cover at least 760 million people in China, or more than half the country’s population, according to a New York Times analysis of government announcements in provinces and major cities. Many of these people live far from the city of Wuhan, where the virus was first reported and which the government sealed off last month (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/world/asia/china-coronavirus-outbreak.html).

New York Times (may be paywalled): To Tame Coronavirus, Mao-Style Social Control Blankets China (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/15/business/china-coronavirus-lockdown.html)

[Australopithecus]

And when Mao style social control doesn’t work, then good old Mao style propaganda does.

Yesterday China reneged on their recent changes to diagnostic criteria. Once again you have to be tested to confirm the diagnosis, and once again we are in the realm of too few test kits and too many false negatives. Its almost as though China has done the math and decided that their economy is more important than a million or so old people. Speaking as an old person, they may be right.

[Joker89]

Regardless on the technical details if pilot recruitment has or has not been suspended the reality is that the current situation is a giant pause button on the industry at best.

Those without a job now are in a precious position as I do not think many if any airlines will be recruiting in the next 6 months or until the virus has blown over and forward booking recover.

[Danny104]

I heard a rumour that Qantas link guys and girls on the hold file are stuck there as one of their ex Colleagues is at Fair work over training pay . Therefore QF not willing to employ them until it’s sorted out . Can anyone shed light on this situation .

[LostWanderer]

Regardless on the technical details if pilot recruitment has or has not been suspended the reality is that the current situation is a giant pause button on the industry at best.

Those without a job now are in a precious position as I do not think many if any airlines will be recruiting in the next 6 months or until the virus has blown over and forward booking recover.

For the sake of everyone at every airline here, lets hope for this does all blow over quickly...but realistically, even once the virus is eventually deemed "contained/cured/controlled" its going to be a long time before John and Jenny Citizen decide they want to start heading back to the Asia region again in numbers even remotely close as they previously were.

I think this entire year is going to pretty much be a write off for pilot recruitment and travel and early to mid or even late next year - in a best case scenario - it will maybe start to slowly rebound. And that is assuming the virus is contained and a vaccine is even available in the near future. I believe things in the industry are unfortunately going to get worse before they get better. But it will eventually bounce back.

Fear is a very powerful thing and there is plenty of that out there for anyone who cares to watch the news.

[slats11]

Blue lines like that don’t happen naturally.
The case definition has been changed twice in a week. China can change definitions and (with 99% of the global cases) can unilaterally control the graphs produced. Meanwhile, things in real life continue to follow a natural course.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1186x1260/screen_shot_2020_02_21_at_08_42_25_3a732705f30e7cc6245c030cb 23d6f204d741e53.png

Infections stop spreading when
i) the pathogen changes,
ii) when we develop a treatment to overcome it,
iii) quarantine such that people stop mixing so it can't spread,
iv) or (when all else fails) it stops running into vulnerable people as the proportion of infected & recovered & immune people increases sufficiently to disrupt ongoing spread. When each person infects less than 1 new person (R falls below 1), the total numbers start to decline. With a current R greater than 2, this would require the proportion of immune people to be greater than 50%. 60% is an estimate based on what we currently believe R to be. It could be higher than 60%.

Absent the first 3, we appear to be left with number iv).

Neil Ferguson suggests 60% global population infected, with a point estimate of a 1% mortality (with a factor of 4 error either way - i.e. fatality most likely between 0.25% and 4%).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMdX1SPiFk
https://youtu.be/onKAInxctpA

7 billion x 60% x 1% = 42 million - with the same error factor of 4 either way.

A UK doctor was suggesting that in the UK this would be equivalent to all UK military and civilian deaths in WW2 - but compressed into 12-18 months.

https://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthma...8/05/1918-flu/ (https://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmatters/2018/05/1918-flu/)

Unusual flu-like activity was first identified in U.S. military personnel during the spring of 1918. Flu spread rapidly in military barracks where men shared close quarters. The second wave occurred during the fall of 1918 and was the most severe. A third wave of illness occurred during the winter and spring of 1919.
Note they are talking about seasons and years. The "1918 'flu" wasn't something that happened for a few weeks or a couple of months in 1918.
With COVID 19, we are looking at a few weeks. Very early days. Yes it started in Nov & Dec 19. But it really only got going 4 weeks ago (4 weeks ago Wuhan was yet to be quarantined).
In the first few weeks of the spring of 1918, I guess things didn't look that bad either.
This likely has a long time to run.

Japan and Korea have both been very very concerning over the past few days
https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/02/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/

[Global Aviator]

Regardless of too many Coronas the current world aviation scene has changed dramatically. We have gone from the cusp of a real pilot shortage to an extreme excess (whilst hopefully very short term). Contract pilots have seen what this means, I’m sure expat pilots at places will next feel the pain.

What does this have to do with QF recruitment? Well as per the Sunrise thread there will
be desperate pilots out there, expats that don’t care and just want to be back based on home soil.

The industry has just been given a massive shake up. Let’s hope it gets better and real soon!

[MajorLemond]

Totally agree. Ive been told both QF and JQ recruitment and ground schools postponed, hopefully this blows over soon, but it’s difficult to guess how long it will take until things normalize again.

[das Uber Soldat]

Totally agree. Ive been told both QF and JQ recruitment and ground schools postponed, hopefully this blows over soon, but it’s difficult to guess how long it will take until things normalize again.
QF ground schools are still on track. Lots of people kicking off and those with dates have heard nothing.

[MajorLemond]

Still on track according to who? I’m under the impression it will come to a halt after the March ground school.

[das Uber Soldat]

Still on track according to who? I’m under the impression it will come to a halt after the March ground school.
I know people with start dates after march who have heard nothing. Of course it's possible they will be notified in due course, but nothing yet.

[...think or thwim]

My guess is that anyone with a signed contract is still going ahead with their allocated ground school. All others who have been given a tentative start date which is meant to be confirmed 6-8 weeks prior might be waiting longer than expected.

[Keg]

March course is a go.

The plan at the moment is for courses scheduled through to the end of the FY to still go ahead. Obviously though this could change if Coronavirus makes it clear that it should change. So the April, May and June courses should be OK- not sure if there is two scheduled for Mar... second one would start on 31 Mar and then late April, late May, late June. There remains a chance they may not. Clear as mud!

Beyond that will be looked at in the next couple of months but not looking likely at the moment. Depends a little on other decisions Qantas makes over the next few months.

[dr dre]

With a slowdown in line flying now would be a great time for any outstanding pilot training to occur to ensure that when demand does return by mid year (I believe the virus numbers will decline as we head out of the northern hemisphere winter) a lack of resourcing won't cause any problems. Can probably work on any outstanding maintenance over the next few months as well.

[Australopithecus]

So far there is no evidence to suggest that corona viruses in general, or SARS-CoV-2 in particular, are purely seasonal.
The classic common cold viruses are rampant from autumn to spring, but show up throughout the year. It may well be that seasonal peaks become apparent.

This virus is going to be ubiquitous. How people adjust in the long term will determine the future of our industry. If the best case is that the virus is seasonal, eventually people may lose their desire for trans-equator international travel. If on average nine or ten passengers per plane load end up dead you can guess what will happen.

[ScepticalOptomist]

This virus is going to be ubiquitous. How people adjust in the long term will determine the future of our industry. If the best case is that the virus is seasonal, eventually people may lose their desire for trans-equator international travel. If on average nine or ten passengers per plane load end up dead you can guess what will happen.

Doom and gloom seems way too popular these days. Next to being constantly outraged, it’s up there in the overused category of emotions.

I sincerely hope you are wrong, and I hope those in the know are doing what they can. Stay safe and happy flying.

[Australopithecus]

I am trying to be a realist. I only read recognised experts in the field, and articles in respected journals and periodicals. I would rather be prepared to the extent that I am able this time than rely on unsound optimism.

I shouldn’t have written “nine or ten in every planeload” because of course not every traveller will be infected, or get a cold, or get the flu. But this virus IS more contagious than either of those things, and of course does kill approx 3% of its victims.

It may be that worldwide for a year or two the death rate from all causes bumps up a bit from this virus and that eventually people will adapt to this new reality. People are hardwired to be more afraid of contagion than other things, the same way they are more afraid of sharks than lightning. Perception, like in most things, may be the key to our industry's future.

[Sunfish]

As a rule, these virus mutate so as not to kill their hosts.

On a personal note, we have probably just blown the $20,000 we paid on our Italian summer holiday, including sailing in Croatia and a week in Vietnam on the way home - all flying Vietnam airlines business class.

However we must wait and see. It’s too early to tell the severity of this thing so that we can make informed decisions about risk. The data from China(and the rest of Asia) is suspect and there is not yet reliable data from a first world country until we get Italian data.

We don’t know the fatality rates despite the comforting bullshyte from the authorities. What we do know is that older people are most at risk and that they are going to require intensive care to pull through. That isn’t going to be available in a major outbreak. So while the CFR may be “3%” of the population it could be 50% of those of us over 65 - and don’t believe a word about “other medical conditions” either.

Despite protestations, there will be economists and public servants who will look on the bright side of all those dead oldies: lower costs of old age pensions and medicare, less pressure on nursing home places, increased availability of housing, etc.

Furthermore, beware of axe grinders, confidence tricksters, doomsayers and loonies. This infection will bring them out in droves. This infection might vanish like summer snow in a few months.

[Hold_Filer]

I heard a rumour that Qantas link guys and girls on the hold file are stuck there as one of their ex Colleagues is at Fair work over training pay . Therefore QF not willing to employ them until it’s sorted out . Can anyone shed light on this situation .

This is a correct rumouring, so not rumour! 1 2 or 3 indeed had to start in March but they were not offered contracts or aircrafts. Told to get back in the holding pattern indefinitely at the smoka. This was before the corona disease took the limelight’s.

The pilots have not had a briefing on the details of this but sunstate, eastern, jetstar and network all out of the picture says the general talk. But no informations from the big dogs.

[Global Aviator]

As a rule, these virus mutate so as not to kill their hosts.

On a personal note, we have probably just blown the $20,000 we paid on our Italian summer holiday, including sailing in Croatia and a week in Vietnam on the way home - all flying Vietnam airlines business class.

However we must wait and see. It’s too early to tell the severity of this thing so that we can make informed decisions about risk. The data from China(and the rest of Asia) is suspect and there is not yet reliable data from a first world country until we get Italian data.

We don’t know the fatality rates despite the comforting bullshyte from the authorities. What we do know is that older people are most at risk and that they are going to require intensive care to pull through. That isn’t going to be available in a major outbreak. So while the CFR may be “3%” of the population it could be 50% of those of us over 65 - and don’t believe a word about “other medical conditions” either.

Despite protestations, there will be economists and public servants who will look on the bright side of all those dead oldies: lower costs of old age pensions and medicare, less pressure on nursing home places, increased availability of housing, etc.

Furthermore, beware of axe grinders, confidence tricksters, doomsayers and loonies. This infection will bring them out in droves. This infection might vanish like summer snow in a few months.

Bit of thread drift...

I am sure a worldly man such as yourself would have travel insurance!!!

Now back to topic... employment...

[slats11]

I am sure a worldly man such as yourself would have travel insurance!!!

All travel insurance policies have lots of fine print. Like this. The exposure is unable to be covered by insurers and so it is excluded.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/838x242/screen_shot_2020_02_25_at_10_53_08_e440cf44e2b35387803be329a 9f146491f9c4066.png

[StudentInDebt]

All travel insurance policies have lots of fine print. Like this. The exposure is unable to be covered by insurers and so it is excluded.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/838x242/screen_shot_2020_02_25_at_10_53_08_e440cf44e2b35387803be329a 9f146491f9c4066.png
Massive thread drift but my travel insurance provided by my credit card does not exclude pandemics and epidemics. Caveat emptor.

[MajorLemond]

So back on Topic, what kind of trips could a new hire expect on the 787, assuming a Perth Base? I'm guessing a lot of LHR returns etc? Would this be one of the longer trips Qf do?

[IsDon01]

So back on Topic, what kind of trips could a new hire expect on the 787, assuming a Perth Base? I'm guessing a lot of LHR returns etc? Would this be one of the longer trips Qf do?

I was an F/O in the PER base until a couple of months ago. I did PER-LHR-PER and the domestic leg of QF9 (PER-MEL-PER) pretty much exclusively. Yes, it’s the longest but certainly the most interesting flying we do. Tired of London, tired of life. Flying over some of the more interesting places in the Middle East with political squabbles, high terrain with its associated depressurisation escape procedures all make this far more interesting than droning over the Pacific. If you could tolerate living in Perth it’s the spot to be. The possibility exists that a lot more flying may happen from Perth to Paris and Berlin. Indeed, if Perth airport weren’t such naval gazing wankers it would be happening already. If they ever get Perth airport to see sense then this will happen, I have no doubt about that.

We may even go back to some of the places we couldn’t make a profit on before with the 747 which look a lot better with 787 economics such as Rome and Athens.

For me, I live in Sydney, and the commuting 5 hours to work was taking its toll so I’m now in the MEL base waiting for SYD to open later this year. Most of my flying now is USA, Mainly SFO which is also a great city. I have been flying with some Perth based S/Os that have had patterns built out of PER so I think the company are starting to mix up the flying a bit. You’d probably see a US pattern in each roster if that’s what you bid for. Otherwise it would primarily be Europe. The last trip I did was MEL-SFO-MEL and changed one of the two S/Os in SFO. The new S/O was a lovely lady I had flown with from the PER base a few times to LHR. Her pattern was pax PER-SYD, operate SYD-SFO-MEL, pax MEL-PER. with 24 hour slips in SYD and MEL with 48 hours in SFO.

So, after that long winded post, you would do mainly Europe, with some US mixed in for variety.

[Brakerider]

Are any more courses going ahead? Is it likely the hold file will be dissolved?

[Fonz121]

Are any more courses going ahead? Is it likely the hold file will be dissolved?

New SO courses to continue for the rest of the year according to management today.

[normanton]

Confirmed today that SO courses will continue. However the disclaimer was added - "the situation is constantly evolving".

[MajorLemond]

Great news that they plan to continue with training for the foreseeable future. I guess when things bounce back they're going to bounce back in a big way (hopefully!)

[m.adz]

Hi all

I’m not sure if I am on the correct thread however it sounds like most of you have a good understanding of the recruitment process. I was hoping someone can please clarify why applicants are required to wait 12 months until they can apply again once they’ve been placed on hold due to no cabin crew positions available at that current time?
I understand completely you are required to wait 12 months once deemed unsuccessful if you do not proceed past the assessment day.
My application was eligible to be placed on hold until May this year however was cut short due to the current circumstances. It is definitely heartbreaking to hear after a long 1 year wait from the time of my application however I just wanted to send my thoughts out to those who currently work as cabin crew.

[KRUSTY 34]

Hi all

I’m not sure if I am on the correct thread however it sounds like most of you have a good understanding of the recruitment process. I was hoping someone can please clarify why applicants are required to wait 12 months until they can apply again once they’ve been placed on hold due to no cabin crew positions available at that current time?
I understand completely you are required to wait 12 months once deemed unsuccessful if you do not proceed past the assessment day.
My application was eligible to be placed on hold until May this year however was cut short due to the current circumstances. It is definitely heartbreaking to hear after a long 1 year wait from the time of my application however I just wanted to send my thoughts out to those who currently work as cabin crew.

Welcome to the wonderful world of airline HR selection.

[m.adz]

Welcome to the wonderful world of airline HR selection.
Yep starting to realised how wonderful it is hahaha

[Fujiroll76]

Firstly, does anyone recall / have a copy of the graph AIPA released a few years back showing the amount of Qantas pilots reaching 65 over the next 10 years?

I remember the number being approx 700 to year 2030. That being what 30% of the pilot body?

With the recruitment door all but closed for the immediate future, is there a possibility of a shortage of pilots for the international operation come say 2023 onwards?

With many I’d assume throwing in the towel prior to 65 in the current climate, re training ect
Project sunrise isn’t dead yet, it may become favourable in the years ahead with the new world as it be. 400 additional pilots were needed for this operation.

I’m a glass half full person but on paper it’s not all doom and gloom.

thoughts?

Take care all

[Keg]

675 to the end of 2030. It’s only 156 until the end of 2023.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x724/e4ca3745_4ff8_4e12_8fd4_5963489094cb_a22d46b3397914aa49fa69b 56c78df9f3350e10c.jpeg

[normanton]

The average retirement age is 63. You could argue retirements would be slightly more than the above graph as it shows age of 65.

I also think lots will stay longer now that their super has gone down the toilet.

Lots will also hit 65 with wanting to move over to domestic 737. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

[Stardoggas]

I also think lots will stay longer now that their super has gone down the toilet.

ASX only lost 18 months worth of gains.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

And there are issues for those in defined benefit super schemes that may not make it worthwhile hanging around while stood down or on MGH.

[Fujiroll76]

Thank you for the graph.

some valid points raised. A little to play out I’m sure. I’m confident the powers at be have it all sorted ;)

stay positive folks.

[Autobrakes4]

Firstly, does anyone recall / have a copy of the graph AIPA released a few years back showing the amount of Qantas pilots reaching 65 over the next 10 years?

I remember the number being approx 700 to year 2030. That being what 30% of the pilot body?

With the recruitment door all but closed for the immediate future, is there a possibility of a shortage of pilots for the international operation come say 2023 onwards?

With many I’d assume throwing in the towel prior to 65 in the current climate, re training ect
Project sunrise isn’t dead yet, it may become favourable in the years ahead with the new world as it be. 400 additional pilots were needed for this operation.

I’m a glass half full person but on paper it’s not all doom and gloom.

thoughts?

Take care all

Not all doom and gloom. We'll be lucky if we don't lose 400 plus pilots as a result of this. I can't see any recruitment for a very long time.

[crosscutter]

Not all doom and gloom. We'll be lucky if we don't lose 400 plus pilots as a result of this.

We will all know by the end of June...3 months notice will coincide with the end of Jobkeeper. I don’t hold your same pessimism though, but some tough decisions to come.

[Ragnor]

Hopefully LWOP is offered to junior international crew and not a redundancy. All the new hires will be needed in a few yrs as travel picks up.

[normanton]

Hopefully LWOP is offered to junior international crew and not a redundancy. All the new hires will be needed in a few yrs as travel picks up.
Very interesting isn't it.

At what point can the junior international crew be back flying on the 330/787, whilst the senior 380/747 crew remain stood down? Does that still classify as "no work available" ?

[Going Nowhere]

Isn't that what placing everyone on stand down is effectively doing? You are free to source alternative employment and it's not really costing the company much to keep you on the books.

[Fujiroll76]

Isn't that what placing everyone on stand down is effectively doing? You are free to source alternative employment and it's not really costing the company much to keep you on the books.

Pretty much. Although still accumulating AL,SL

LWOP would be the obvious decision to remove the above entitlements if the company cant recoup from the government JK scheme after September.

I’m hopeful that keeping a surplus current in the short term will provide the flexibility that the company has continued to express in the event demand ramps up quicker than expected.

[normanton]

Isn't that what placing everyone on stand down is effectively doing? You are free to source alternative employment and it's not really costing the company much to keep you on the books.
Stand down is more expensive then LWOP....

[dr dre]

Stand down is more expensive then LWOP....

But both are more cost effective than a mass RIN followed by redundancies. And no one loses their job against their will.

[crosscutter]

Before people start this redundancy talk, it first has to be proven that the existing mechanisms to manage numbers within each award will either not be fully utilised or will be insufficient in this situation.

Each award has flexibility that both the company and the association will explore.

I expect the masses will take a haircut so the at risk will keep food on the table.

[normanton]

Do we really expect the company to RIN a 380/747 captain in the present situation? One move at the top can make ~10 training movements down the line.

Surely its not financially viable in the current circumstances.

[mohikan]

Before people start this redundancy talk, it first has to be proven that the existing mechanisms to manage numbers within each award will either not be fully utilised or will be insufficient in this situation.

Each award has flexibility that both the company and the association will explore.

I expect the masses will take a haircut so the at risk will keep food on the table.

I wont be agreeing to any pay cuts to save Normanton and other S/Os jobs. Given the way he carried on and abused senior pilots during the LHEA vote. Now the shoe is on the other foot and he is facing unemployment his pie hole is shut

Last on first off. Seniority and the RIN process will be enforced. End of story.

A RIN is never financially viable for the airline. It had a chance to change or get rid of that process during the last LHEA vote, which was taken during the COVID emergency if you look at the timing and it declined to do so.

If Qantas goes to FWA now seeking variation to the RIN and redundancy processes it wont have a leg to stand on. AIPA will fight this one into the ground

Last on, first off. See you later Normanton. Enjoy working at Maccas.

[normanton]

I wont be agreeing to any pay cuts to save Normanton and other S/Os jobs. Given the way he carried on and abused senior pilots during the LHEA vote. Now the shoe is on the other foot and he is facing unemployment his pie hole is shut

Abuse is a bit of a laugh. More like, you didn't like being hit with a hard dose of reality.

By shoe on the other foot do you mean the senior pilots who wanted to vote NO to save the "legacy conditions", now want the jobs on the 787/330 junior fleet, or the "light twins"? Surely not!

Enjoy your long extended stand down as it's the cheapest option for the company. :ok:



A RIN is never financially viable for the airline. It had a chance to change or get rid of that process during the last LHEA vote, which was taken during the COVID emergency if you look at the timing and it declined to do so.

If Qantas goes to FWA now seeking variation to the RIN and redundancy processes it wont have a leg to stand on. AIPA will fight this one into the ground.
If the company knew how bad the situation was going to become, they wouldn't have even agreed to backpay or 3% rises. Your argument is flawed, just like it was during the LH EBA discussion.

Expect discussions to start with AIPA for amendments to the EBA. Pay cuts included. It's great you won't be apart of it. Your vote will count just as much as it did with the NO vote.


Last on, first off. See you later Normanton. Enjoy working at Maccas.
Thanks for your concern, but I am already back working in a previous industry.

[SandyPalms]

In the scheme of things, everyone will take a huge pay cut. Once they get all 737 crew back to work it will be on min guarantee until at least next year, but will go back to normal much faster than other fleets. Many, if not all 747/A380 guys will be stood down indefinitely, with no pay. The 747 guys will be in a better position because they will have to be RINed, but while the company keeps saying “it might fly again” they don’t have to do anything, and all crew will still be stood down on no pay. 787/A330 will most likely have to accept some kind of flexiline structure for everyone to get everyone back to work before the end of 2021. I don’t think you will have a choice Mohikan (although I don’t know what fleet you are on). Recruitment will be years away. My best guess would be 2023.

[IsDon01]

From the last webinar Tino made clear his opinion that QANTAS had the right number of people going into this COVID crisis, and it was his firm belief that translates to having the right number of people coming out the other side of it.

I read into that to not expect any widespread redundancies any time soon. With the flexibility management are enjoying with the stand down provisions it seems to me that management are taking a wait and see approach to see how quickly recovery happens. They’re under no pressure to do anything different. I expect any fine tuning will be through LWOP opportunities. There will also be some natural attrition during this period as people reach the time of their lives that it’s just easier to disappear into the sunset. If I was 10 years older, that would certainly be my position.

Forward bookings are usually the lens that management use to determine the amount of seats to put on any particular route. Be that putting more seats on the route by using bigger aircraft or more frequency or reducing frequency and/or aircraft size depending upon forward booking demand. When determining whether a new route is viable a lot of research goes into the likelihood of it being a success by looking at the demographics of the planned market and then taking a leap of faith by opening the route. Forward bookings can then be used as the barometer to “right size” the route. QANTAS have been ruthless at cutting or downsizing routes if the load factors fall short of expectations as any competent airline would.

QANTAS, like all other airlines, now finds itself in a reset period. By that I mean that the usual barometer of forward bookings are not presently an accurate reflection of route viability as every route has been artificially restricted by both international and interstate borders. Nobody's making bookings anywhere at present as it’s actually illegal for Australian citizens to leave the country and any international visitors face a 14 day quarantine. QANTAS must effectively now treat every route as if it were a new route and take a leap of faith once restrictions are lifted and hope that forward bookings flow in. I think they will, and so do QANTAS management.This seems to be a perfectly reasonable expectation.

As to how this equates to forward recruitment is a more difficult question. A lot will depend upon confirmation of forward bookings and realisation of the expected pent-up demand. No recruitment will happen until this is known for certain. Added to this will be a decision upon the future of the 747. The longer this goes on, the less likely it is that the 747 will fly again. It was planned to retire in March next year anyway. Any short-term conversions would be associated with the expected RIN process of those crew on that fleet. If, as expected, forward bookings return then I expect the three deferred 789s will be delivered and the 789 will form the backbone of any return to international routes. That includes routes out of SYD traditionally flown on the four engines fleet. I expect the 787 will actually be short of crew early next year. I may be wrong. Time will tell.

The A380 is also a “wait and see” prospect. There has been a lot of conjecture that because QANTAS stopped the refresh of the last 6 A380s that this somehow signals the start of the demise of the A380 for QANTAS. This position was scoffed at by Tino in the last webinar. He stated that we had the right number of A380s going into this crisis and we’ll have the right number, 12, coming out of it. The pause on the refresh on the last 6 aircraft was purely the short term requirement to preserve cash and that the refresh will be continued once we start making money again. I feel for the guys on the dugong. I was there myself until recently and to some extent these guys have as much, if not more, uncertainty as the 747 guys. The 747 guys can expect retraining in the short term, whereas the A380 guys will probably be just kept stood down for a long period, maybe another 12 months. The company is still planning to operate the A380 into the future so they won’t want anyone leaving this fleet in the short term, but they won’t be flying again for a significant period. Any crew required for the 787 will be coming from the 747 in the short term.

My crystal ball is to not expect recruitment for at least 18 months or so. If the demand returns, as expected, then it will have to happen then. Tino also stated that he is committed to Project Sunrise and I can see the logic here. The point to point out of Australia makes even more sense now than it did pre-COVID. I firmly believe the A350 remains firmly in focus and will form a big part of QANTAS’ future.

It will take a couple of years but I expect QANTAS will be back to where we were, and even stronger. I’m normally quite cynical about QANTAS but I don’t think we have anything to be pessimistic about. The next few months will be a struggle for those on the 4 engine fleet but we’ll get over it.

[crosscutter]

Disregarding its personal nature, Mohican raises a valid point of view. Mohican will not be the only one who remembers the flexi lines, LSL and AL assignments and general sacrifice for those at the bottom. Not to mention those who went to Jetstar or the sandpit.

The appetite for further sacrifice now may not be so strong for a fair cohort of the pilot body and it will be a balancing act for the association. The ultimate outcome may reflect that balance required.

[ruprecht]

Last on, first off. See you later Normanton. Enjoy working at Maccas.

Classy... :rolleyes:

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Bloody hell......just because the rest of the world is in self destruct mode does not mean we have to go down that path towards each other. Everyone is doing it tough.

[Beer Baron]

If the company knew how bad the situation was going to become, they wouldn't have even agreed to backpay or 3% rises. Your argument is flawed,

I think your argument is flawed.
- Australia closed its borders on March 20.
- Qantas stood down its staff on March 21.
- Qantas made its application to the FWC for ratification of the LHEA on April 8.

You can’t suggest things have deteriorated since the LHEA was submitted, if anything the situation in Australia has improved and avoided the worst predictions available at the time.

I believe Qantas will have to comply with the EA. Nearly every instance where a condition within the EA could be ‘varied in agreement with the association’ were deleted from our EA’s years ago (at the insistence of Qantas).

[mohikan]

Normanton.

Beer Baron is 100% correct. The airline had a chance to shelve the EA vote and set up for the post COVID environment but chose not to. There is zero chance of FWA giving relief from the RIN or redundancy provisions now.

FWA is very clear its job is not to solve a businesses mistakes with its workforce. Look at the arbitration result post the grounding of the airline for the best example. Qantas got almost nothing it asked for.

There is also no chance of senior crew voting to accept pay cuts to save Normantons job (as an example)

Because demotions are going to happen anyway. And so every F/O and Captain and most of the ultra senior S/Os will vote no to such a proposal. You end up changing seats and fleets and then going onto a b-scale as part of that to save the job of a pilot whose naked hatred of senior crew and contempt on the flight deck for anyone which has more experience than him is well known.

Unlike the recent LHEA (which I was an enthusiastic yes voter for) there is nothing in this for me to protect your job.

So enjoy being back in the RAAF. You will be there for a while I reckon. Probably for good.

[ruprecht]

Normanton.

Beer Baron is 100% correct. The airline had a chance to shelve the EA vote and set up for the post COVID environment but chose not to. There is zero chance of FWA giving relief from the RIN or redundancy provisions now.

FWA is very clear its job is not to solve a businesses mistakes with its workforce. Look at the arbitration result post the grounding of the airline for the best example. Qantas got almost nothing it asked for.

There is also no chance of senior crew voting to accept pay cuts to save Normantons job (as an example)

Because demotions are going to happen anyway. And so every F/O and Captain and most of the ultra senior S/Os will vote no to such a proposal. You end up changing seats and fleets and then going onto a b-scale as part of that to save the job of a pilot whose naked hatred of senior crew and contempt on the flight deck for anyone which has more experience than him is well known.

Unlike the recent LHEA (which I was an enthusiastic yes voter for) there is nothing in this for me to protect your job.

So enjoy being back in the RAAF. You will be there for a while I reckon. Probably for good.
You like digging holes, don’t you? :hmm:

[normanton]

Normanton.
There is also no chance of senior crew voting to accept pay cuts to save Normantons job (as an example)

Unlike the recent LHEA (which I was an enthusiastic yes voter for) there is nothing in this for me to protect your job.

Not once have I asked anyone to save my job.

But just for the record, when the company goes down the path of redundancy by fleet with an emergency hearing with fairwork, and the company turns to the 330/787 crew to operate reduced lines so we can asborb some of the 747/380 crew, there will be nothing in it for me. I won't be accepting any pay reduction to save your job. Two can play that game. Good riddance!

I think your argument is flawed.
You can’t suggest things have deteriorated since the LHEA was submitted, if anything the situation in Australia has improved and avoided the worst predictions available at the time.

They actually have.

At no point where we looking at international at 1% capacity, and domestic 5%. And those numbers are only there because of government funding. Without them its 0%.

You can't sit here and say during EBA negotiations and voting we were looking at Qantas being entirely grounded.

[dr dre]

There is also no chance of senior crew voting to accept pay cuts to save Normantons job (as an example)


I don't think they'll be asked to vote on anything. Already a process to manage crew numbers with the stand down process.

The only pilots who will need to be RIN'd anywhere by March '21 are the 747 pilots, and I believe that their numbers are approximately equivalent to the probable retirements to that date, and any excess from that can be easily managed. There'll probably be an increase in retirements as a result of this slowdown.

With a long term view, the company knows 5 years from now they will need pilots of normanton's era (joined within the last 3 years). It is in their long term interest to ensure the most junior pilots remain with the group in some fashion.

[Autobrakes4]

There is no way Qantas will follow the contract and apply a RIN in accordance with it. Can you imagine a RIN in accordance with the contract with both 380 and 747. They'll argue in FW that it will send them bankrupt and it's better to make 3-400 pilots redundant outside the contact than make 30000 unemployed. I can't see the 380 ever coming back. They can actually keep 380 pilots on stand down indefinitely, unlike the 747 pilots. This is a recruitment thread though and I can't see recruitment for 5 years, especially if they make the junior pilots redundant and employ them back slowly in the future. I think we'll see a very different airline into the future unfortunately. Tough times ahead, we're in a changed world. I don't doubt what TLS and DT have to say on the webinars at present but we live in a dynamic world and plans will change. "We have no intention of" is probably correct at the moment but could be a reality down the track.

[normanton]

A lot will depend on Virgin also. If the 777/330 international fleet is canned the 380/747s might be back quicker than we think!

[Beer Baron]

They actually have.

At no point where we looking at international at 1% capacity.

You can't sit here and say during EBA negotiations and voting we were looking at Qantas being entirely grounded.
Wrong again.
- Qantas announced the grounding of ALL regularly scheduled international flights on the 19th of March. See here (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-outlines-customer-and-employee-impact-of-coronavirus-related-network-cuts/)
- LH EA voting started on the 21st of March.

So Qantas were fully aware of the worst possible scenario BEFORE the EA vote opened, before the result was declared and before it was submitted to the FWC. They had ample opportunity to pull it but they decided not to.

[normanton]

Wrong again.
- Qantas announced the grounding of ALL regularly scheduled international flights on the 19th of March. See here (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-outlines-customer-and-employee-impact-of-coronavirus-related-network-cuts/)
- LH EA voting started on the 21st of March.

So Qantas were fully aware of the worst possible scenario BEFORE the EA vote opened, before the result was declared and before it was submitted to the FWC. They had ample opportunity to pull it but they decided not to.
I still don't agree with you. You are talking LH only - this is not a LH only issue. At no point during EBA negotiations / voting was International planned to be at 1% and domestic at 5%. Realistically the pre-COVID 19 network are both operating at 0% without the government funding.

Your argument is valid, but Qantas have an army of lawyers who would rip it apart in FW. Don't forget who we work for here. An opportunity like this is once in a lifetime, and Allan will take full advantage of it.

Ask the contractors building the new sim training building how a signed contract worked out for them. Again, never one to waste an opportunity.

[dragon man]

The builders will have in the contract for the sim building a penalty payment. Qantas will probably fight them however they will not walk away for nothing IMO. The site has to be fixed up plus there is the lease on three floors of car parking next door. A right royal mess.

[skysook]

I wont be agreeing to any pay cuts to save Normanton and other S/Os jobs. Given the way he carried on and abused senior pilots during the LHEA vote. Now the shoe is on the other foot and he is facing unemployment his pie hole is shut

Last on first off. Seniority and the RIN process will be enforced. End of story.

A RIN is never financially viable for the airline. It had a chance to change or get rid of that process during the last LHEA vote, which was taken during the COVID emergency if you look at the timing and it declined to do so.

If Qantas goes to FWA now seeking variation to the RIN and redundancy processes it wont have a leg to stand on. AIPA will fight this one into the ground

Last on, first off. See you later Normanton. Enjoy working at Maccas.

Never burn your bridges mate. One day that guy from maccas could be your sim instructor. I’ve seen it happen before.

[mohikan]

I still don't agree with you. You are talking LH only - this is not a LH only issue. At no point during EBA negotiations / voting was International planned to be at 1% and domestic at 5%. Realistically the pre-COVID 19 network are both operating at 0% without the government funding.

Your argument is valid, but Qantas have an army of lawyers who would rip it apart in FW. Don't forget who we work for here. An opportunity like this is once in a lifetime, and Allan will take full advantage of it.

Ask the contractors building the new sim training building how a signed contract worked out for them. Again, never one to waste an opportunity.

Heres the point you don't get Normanton.

During the LHEA debate you abused and threatened anyone senior to you on this forum and elsewhere. But in fact if you had bothered to speak to the F/Os and Captains you fly with you would have realised the EA vote was always going to get up. Therefore, you didn't need to make the threats and deliver the abuse you did.

The bulk of the QF pilot voting 'public' always does the common sense and pragmatic thing. Has the last 30 years I have been with the company. Yes there are many folks who are vocal on Qrewroom and elsewhere, but you have to look beyond that.

Skysook talks about burning bridges. Thats the situation you have placed yourself in. The guys I fly with (like #londonbound) think that because they have been S/Os for six months or so they have nothing to learn and in fact are smarter and more experienced then the F/O and Captain.

I know for a fact no-one goes sick on me on the 787 because I never say a word to anyone about performance or knowledge. Even when the S/Os turn up not prepared, hungover and disinterested or start lecturing me on how to fly the aircraft. I let it all go because I know there is no point. I get to LHR, shrug my shoulders and move on.

But now the situation is that Normanton and others want the contract they so vigorously championed three months ago changed because it potentially doesn't suit them. But I am reasonably sure that given your previous behaviour not many of the pilots senior to you, even the silent sensible majority, have any sympathy for you.

Last time this situation happened I took half lines, gave up leave and look LWOP to help the group. I did this because the guys I worked with were team players and I knew that if the situation was reversed they would do same for me. But with you, Normanton, people know that if the situation was reversed you would not support us, and in fact would do everything possible to feather you own nest at the expense of your fellow pilots.

At least you have the RAAF to go back to. Most guys don't. Count yourself lucky

[normanton]

Decided to remove this post.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

For anyone actually interested in QF recruiting, could I please apologise on behalf of all those of us who are finding this an increasingly embarrassing spectacle.

[Angle of Attack]

I’d suggest the crew in QF Longhaul are looking at an extended brutal standown beating. Sometimes emotion gets out of control and that’s what we are seeing, don’t blame the participants. Looks like the 737 will be the most senior fleet for at least the next year! (Or 3)

[captsf]

Just passing by this thread and Christ, that Normanton is a touchy fellow. So much to prove...good luck chaps!

[crosscutter]

I am confident the published RIN procedures will be followed. No FWA challenge. Why? Many reasons..but the main one is the cost blow out fear won’t eventuate with published procedures. At least not enough to warrant a challenge which they could easily lose. I challenge proponents of the FWA challenge to justify their position beyond ‘it’ll cost too much’ and explain why. Exactly where will the cascading training courses occur in this case. Put some thought into it because if you put forward a basic answer, I’ll conclude, probably accurately, that you’re not worthy of your scaremongering position. A good start is to answer this:

can a displacement occur on a fleet that itself is subject to a RIN?

and a chat to JB of AIPA first is a good idea.

[Green.Dot]

Has QF and it’s management ever been scared of hiring the most expensive lawyers In the country because of a perceived chance of losing?



No, I didn’t think so.

[Going Boeing]

Has QF and it’s management ever been scared of hiring the most expensive lawyers In the country because of a perceived chance of losing?

During the legal process with Fair Work Australia following Joyce's shutdown of the airline, Qantas went in with all guns blazing. They hired 5 QC's, one to do the arguing and 4 doing supporting roles which would normally be done by article clerks. It was all designed to intimidate the sole QC that was representing AIPA.

Altogether, QF spent $62M on legal expenses throughout that process and gained less than $5M in savings from the minor changes in the determination. No, they are not scared of hiring the best legal minds no matter the cost Vs outcome.

[Time Map Ground]

Hi guys, long time lurker here. I know this is a bit of a thread drift, but would anybody have any information on when QLink (Sunstate/Eastern) would start recruiting FOs again? I understand that finding an answer to this question would be a bit of a long shot given the current situation, but just wanted to see if anyone would have any information at all. Many thanks!

[Blueskymine]

Hi guys, long time lurker here. I know this is a bit of a thread drift, but would anybody have any information on when QLink (Sunstate/Eastern) would start recruiting FOs again? I understand that finding an answer to this question would be a bit of a long shot given the current situation, but just wanted to see if anyone would have any information at all. Many thanks!


Probably when all the existing ones are flying again and Pilots have moved around the group to cover shortages and surpluses and they need more. Which won’t be in the next 1-2 years.

[Fujiroll76]

Probably when all the existing ones are flying again and Pilots have moved around the group to cover shortages and surpluses and they need more. Which won’t be in the next 1-2 years.

what do you mean when you say “when pilots have moved around the group to cover shortages”

Are you saying if a 747 FO gets made redundant, they can move to qlink, JQ ect?

im not aware of this arrangement

[Blueskymine]

what do you mean when you say “when pilots have moved around the group to cover shortages”

Are you saying if a 747 FO gets made redundant, they can move to qlink, JQ ect?

im not aware of this arrangement

The company will offer LWOP as required to balance the surpluses across the group.

[Going Nowhere]

There is no arrangement for anyone in the group to go to QLink. If there was in the future, it would be via a similar EOI process to the one used to apply to mainline.

There have already been dozens of former QLink pilots at mainline who have enquired about the prospects of returning and all told the same grim news.

[Blueskymine]

There is no arrangement for anyone in the group to go to QLink. If there was in the future, it would be via a similar EOI process to the one used to apply to mainline.

There have already been dozens of former QLink pilots at mainline who have enquired about the prospects of returning and all told the same grim news.

Haven’t heard of guys going to the links. But there
will be opportunities at network, cobham, Pacific, Japan, etc as the various domestic networks fire up again.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Haven’t heard of guys going to the links. But there
will be opportunities at network, cobham, Pacific, Japan, etc as the various domestic networks fire up again.

I doubt that any domestic markets are going to get to a point within 12-18 months where they need to recruit more pilots, even through internal EOI.

[Transition Layer]

When are we changing the title of this thread to “Network Recruitment”?

Some Perth based Short Haul Pilots are back on stand down, whilst Network are asking their pilots to work on days off as they are short of crew. Bloody disgusting...and the Acting QF Chief Pilot “isn’t sure what to say”.

:rolleyes:

[Fujiroll76]

When are we changing the title of this thread to “Network Recruitment”?

Some Perth based Short Haul Pilots are back on stand down, whilst Network are asking their pilots to work on days off as they are short of crew. Bloody disgusting...and the Acting QF Chief Pilot “isn’t sure what to say”.

:rolleyes:

That was cringe worthy listening to him being backed into a corner. He like all know exactly what is going on but when challenged had no comment.

disgusting

[Telfer86]

Why the angst that Network is busy , thought that would be a good thing , more $$ for the group & some EOI to transfer
over from the rest of the group ?

Can someone explain why the 717 advertised externally for FOs in early January ? Was this because not enough group
people were interested ? Seems strange going to the outside market just because group guys might not have time on 717

Sounds like AIPA might have dropped the ball , if externals are being hired

[Transition Layer]

Why the angst that Network is busy , thought that would be a good thing , more $$ for the group & some EOI to transfer
over from the rest of the group ?

Can someone explain why the 717 advertised externally for FOs in early January ? Was this because not enough group
people were interested ? Seems strange going to the outside market just because group guys might not have time on 717

Sounds like AIPA might have dropped the ball , if externals are being hired

Network are only accepting internals with previous F100 or A320 experience. Apart from those who did MOU time at JQ, the numbers would be limited.

The cynic in me would suggest it is deliberate ploy to lock out Mainline Pilots, but the reality is that it’s an employers market right now and plenty of Airbus experienced expats would be flooding home to jump at the chance.

[Telfer86]

Just surprises me that people from outside the QF group are even considered for any flying job within the group

Such as the 717 operation advertising externally & asking for time on type

Could understand if firstly for people within group with endorsement/time but it wouldn't be any great challenge for a stood down
JQ or Mainline guy to do an endo & line training if nobody available in group with endorsement (or willing to apply)

AIPA & AFAP really should have worked together & made that a priority , nobody hired from outside - we have 1000 + stood down & they have to come first
It wouldn't have been that hard to get across the line.

Wasted time/efforts on projects that were never going to happen (ie Pilotkeeper) forgot the basics

[MBA747]

So would Network consider employing Captains who are current and with significant F100 and A320 command time?

[Fujiroll76]

Just surprises me that people from outside the QF group are even considered for any flying job within the group

Such as the 717 operation advertising externally & asking for time on type

Could understand if firstly for people within group with endorsement/time but it wouldn't be any great challenge for a stood down
JQ or Mainline guy to do an endo & line training if nobody available in group with endorsement (or willing to apply)

AIPA & AFAP really should have worked together & made that a priority , nobody hired from outside - we have 1000 + stood down & they have to come first
It wouldn't have been that hard to get across the line.

Wasted time/efforts on projects that were never going to happen (ie Pilotkeeper) forgot the basics

Was there actually any pilots externally hired for the 717? I can understand advertising but surely this didn’t actually happen with the amount stood down within the group.

surely..

[Telfer86]

Why would they advertise for 717 FOs if they did not intend hiring ? Surely they have better things to do
QF group pilots (or their unions etc) should have ensured "no externals" whilst any of their own guys were stood down/lwop
, & first to be re-employed in any QF airline if there are redundancies (not just mainline)
Virgin redundant pilots are first to be re-employed until 2027 or something
Unfortunately makes it a bleak outlook for any returnees from OS looking for an airline gig if QF & Virgin have a look after your own policy for the next several years

[Green.Dot]

Was there actually any pilots externally hired for the 717?


Yep most certainly. Don’t really understand why you had to have had 717 time, they still do a full endorsement...

[slice]

Were the externals all ex Qlink 717 ?

[Telfer86]

Advert only expired on January 14th , was open for two or three weeks
A rather quick hiring process then if people already appointed

[Keg]

QF group pilots (or their unions etc) should have ensured "no externals" whilst any of their own guys were stood down/lwop

And using what legal framework were they going to use to ensure this?

[Telfer86]

And using what legal framework were they going to use to ensure this?
Well there probably isn't one as nobody thought about a global pandemic when contracts drafted up
But there would be nothing to stop the two parties reaching an agreement whether that be formalised in writing or simply a handshake deal or statement by the CEO
It wouldn't be a great look for a company to refuse such a reasonable request. Even if people did have to make some financial or guaranteed period of service if not endorsed

Have AIPA/AFAP even asked ? Maybe they should think about doing that

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I get where you’re coming from and hate to be negative, but there are a couple of minor issues here.

or simply a handshake deal or statement by the CEO

Er, this is Qantas we’re talking about. The statement would be along the lines of ‘We want to assure you that at this stage, we have no intention of doing that nasty thing you don’t want us to do.’ Within a couple of months, they’ll be doing it.
If it’s not in writing and bulletproof, forget it.

It wouldn't be a great look for a company to refuse such a reasonable request.

This is a company which has just gotten rid of about a third of its workforce and decided that instead of going to a service desk for help, passengers can sort it out themselves online. I don’t think they’re too worried about what’s a good look right now.

[Keg]

But there would be nothing to stop the two parties reaching an agreement whether that be formalised in writing or simply a handshake deal or statement by the CEO

Lol. Perhaps it could be written on a bit of parchment and signed by the CEO and President of AIPA.

[OnceBitten]

Can someone explain to me how the Qantas group can be collecting Jobkeeper yet be recruiting? I'm pretty confident their application for jobkeeper isn't for the individual businesses, it's for the whole group.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Can someone explain to me how the Qantas group can be collecting Jobkeeper yet be recruiting? I'm pretty confident their application for jobkeeper isn't for the individual businesses, it's for the whole group.

A good question indeed.

[Telfer86]

Yes Keg that would constitute a valid contract , same if it was written on toilet paper & signed by same

I am sure you are an excellent pilot , solid citizen etc. But your thinking appears quite narrow in this area, that everything has to written down & certified by a whole lot of singers & dancers or it has to say "can be done" in legislation or other instruments. Otherwise you just can't do it
Off the books deals , agreements like these are made all the time in the commercial world. It's easy , no need to overcomplicate it
Various LOA are pretty Mickey mouse in many ways drafted up in five minutes, that would be one mechanism - but likely overcomplicating something that is very simple
Free world etc , if you all think it's a bridge too far or you support the hiring of external candidates


​​​​​​



​​​​​​

[Green.Dot]

Telfer, back in August you told us 25-40% of the QF pilot group would be made redundant.

And now you want us to listen to your advice?

[MaxHelixAngle]

Telfer, unenforceable “off the book deals [and] agreements” require a trust relationship.

[theheadmaster]

Yes Keg that would constitute a valid contract , same if it was written on toilet paper & signed by same

I am sure you are an excellent pilot , solid citizen etc. But your thinking appears quite narrow in this area, that everything has to written down & certified by a whole lot of singers & dancers or it has to say "can be done" in legislation or other instruments. Otherwise you just can't do it
Off the books deals , agreements like these are made all the time in the commercial world. It's easy , no need to overcomplicate it
Various LOA are pretty Mickey mouse in many ways drafted up in five minutes, that would be one mechanism - but likely overcomplicating something that is very simple
Free world etc , if you all think it's a bridge too far or you support the hiring of external candidates



​​​​​​

What gives AIPA the authority to 'contract' on behalf of pilots? What gives AIPA the authority to draft an LOA? What limits the scope of what an LOA can cover?

[Telfer86]

Well I think I was right (unfortunately) with the % recovery I was predicting . Said getting 50% of international back in two years would be a great result. Got howled down but now that figure would seem like dreamland. Be lucky to be at 10%

I just hope domestic stabilises ,grows , very sketchy ATM
Not looking for anyone to listen to me , just my views. The folks here seem to be experts in anything & everything

If you want AIPA to support the entry of externals , that is your right. If you don't want aircrew vacancies reserved for other QF group crew , that's your right - tell AIPA & your CEO that

[neville_nobody]

I am sure you are an excellent pilot , solid citizen etc. But your thinking appears quite narrow in this area, that everything has to written down & certified by a whole lot of singers & dancers or it has to say "can be done" in legislation or other instruments. Otherwise you just can't do it

Assumption being you aren't dealing with a team of psychopaths.

[theheadmaster]

Well I think I was right (unfortunately) with the % recovery I was predicting . Said getting 50% of international back in two years would be a great result. Got howled down but now that figure would seem like dreamland. Be lucky to be at 10%

I just hope domestic stabilises ,grows , very sketchy ATM
Not looking for anyone to listen to me , just my views. The folks here seem to be experts in anything & everything

If you want AIPA to support the entry of externals , that is your right. If you don't want aircrew vacancies reserved for other QF group crew , that's your right - tell AIPA & your CEO that


Yes, some here actually do have qualifications and experience in this field. You made some very specific references to what constitutes a valid contract. You also gave some specific examples of how AIPA could do an 'off the books' deal. I asked you some very specific questions to determine if you know what you are talking about.

[Telfer86]

If you knew anything you would know there would be 101 different ways of getting something like that done

Would put the number of law degree holders in the QF pilot group at less than 30 & the number of those
who have practiced for more than than three years at less than 10 , more than five years practice less than 5

Hardly a fountain of legal expertise , but day sure do fly da planes veal well hey Bro ?

[morno]

I know for a fact that stood down Qantas Group pilots have been filling positions at Network

[aussieflyboy]

I know for a fact that stood down Qantas Group pilots have been filling positions at Network

All of whom will immediately bail on Network the moment international opens up again leaving them short of crew.

Meanwhile 40 NJS crew are being relocated to MEL. Most of whom don’t give a rats about working for the Group and no doubt would have happily stayed with Network for the rest of their careers (provided that was in PER).

[Keg]

They’d all be ex Network and appropriately type rated wouldn’t they morno?

[aviation_enthus]

Why are any of you surprised?

The entire Qantas group is separated into different groups so they can play you off against each other. It’s only the recent past that pilots were even able to move up to Mainline from the ‘links!!

QF will do whatever they want. Especially in a pandemic such as this.

If you want my prediction, most of the QF work out of Perth will end up being done by Network with 320/F100’s (aka the old Skywest/Virgin relationship). The Mainline base may even disappear and all flights based out of the east coast.

[morno]

They’d all be ex Network and appropriately type rated wouldn’t they morno?

Keg,
Ex Network, no. Appropriately rated, yes.

[theheadmaster]

If you knew anything you would know there would be 101 different ways of getting something like that done

Would put the number of law degree holders in the QF pilot group at less than 30 & the number of those
who have practiced for more than than three years at less than 10 , more than five years practice less than 5

Hardly a fountain of legal expertise , but day sure do fly da planes veal well hey Bro ?
So where do your numbers 101, 30, 10 and 5 come from? Have you just made this up? Don’t bother answering, they ere rhetorical questions. The point you have quite clearly made, is that you are not one of them.

[dr dre]

If you want my prediction, most of the QF work out of Perth will end up being done by Network with 320/F100’s (aka the old Skywest/Virgin relationship).

You need aircraft that are reliable to do that.....

[Telfer86]

HM ; think I might be close can think of one circa pre GFC QF Cadet who got just over 5 years legal practice ; another who was a tad under

Certainly I didn't reach the dizzy heights of being both a QF pilot & a junior bunny lawyer HM so you are indeed correct

Many long term employees think because they have had a few different contracts/ebas/awards think they are IR Gurus - they aren't

That's my feel for the numbers , maybe there are a 100 guys with law degrees but that isn't likely ( more likely with Aviation degrees, maybe 50 Engineering degrees on a sunny blue sky day- but really think so more like 25 max)

Think I am close but just my humble opinion

Boring forum same old blow hards & big notes - become such an Aussie trait unfortunately. Ridiculous conspiracy theories about management who show such disrespect to you

NO wonder Aussie pilots have such a lousy reputation OS

[Green.Dot]

Boring forum

Of course it’s boring for people who aren’t pilots.

Not sure why you bother reading it.

[morno]

NO wonder Aussie pilots have such a lousy reputation OS

By lousy, you mean safe and knowledge right? At least that was my experience.

Normally the ones overseas who didn’t like the Aussies were the ones who the Aussies stopped from flying into hill sides and breaking the rules....

[C441]

You don't have to have a law degree or industrial relations expertise to ask the relevant questions of those who do……...

[International Trader]

....aaah, I think lousy is a very accurate word.
Foreign pilots were employed to stop planes hitting hills, not just Australians ( as hard as that may be for some to accept) and , this is employment is generally only to cover shortages in crew and training pipeline issues that can lead to contact with hills.
Definitely not to be shown how to fly but, as in all airlines, there are star performers and some that are not so good.
Bigger the airline and the more diverse the culture , the greater the propensity for more average performers rising to positions of control.

Australians are generally the most hated ( probably more by the other contract pilots than the companies) because they are self centred, demanding, petulant and are always trying to get a better deal for themselves , regardless of the cost to the airline and others in the foreign pilot body.
They walk into another culture and airline without any understanding of the situation , immediately complain about everything and want to tell them how to run a foreign airline on the basis of their limited life experience in one sheltered workshop situation back at home.
Cultural insensitivity to the extreme.
The majority of these have a job back home to go back to and are only there for the short term cash.
New Zealanders are generally ,not far behind.

[Ragnor]

I’m confused as to what this thread is about now. Is it that Qantas pilots think they have a right to any job in the group when they want, when before they would be bagging the pilots out working these same jobs 12 months ago?

[Beer Baron]

They walk into another culture and airline without any understanding of the situation , immediately complain about everything and want to tell them how to run a foreign airline on the basis of their limited life experience in one sheltered workshop situation back at home.
Well that certainly sounds a lot like Telfer telling guys who’ve been working for Qantas for decades how they should do a friendly handshake deal with management. The same managers who have been working to make mainline pilots irrelevant for 20 years.

As for the lawyers in the pilot ranks, who cares? The union employs lawyers and IR specialists and pays for outside legal advice when needed.

[Keg]

I’m confused as to what this thread is about now. Is it that Qantas pilots think they have a right to any job in the group when they want, when before they would be bagging the pilots out working these same jobs 12 months ago?

No. More that it seems to be the height of stupidity to be recruiting pilots externally to the group whilst so many pilots currently employed within the group are stood down and not working (or getting paid).

As to pilots who are lawyers or whatever, I’m with Beer Baron. Further to C441’s comments also, you don’t need to be a lawyer or an IR expert to pick the BS from those like Telfer.

[neville_nobody]

No. More that it seems to be the height of stupidity to be recruiting pilots externally to the group whilst so many pilots currently employed within the group are stood down and not working (or getting paid).


I guess from the accountant's point of view you create multiple training events if you were to put say A380 crew on the 717 compared to hiring people who had already flown the aircraft. The A380 crew would have to do a full endorsement plus line training, then when they go back to Long Haul they have to do more line training and sim work, plus then the 717 has to fill the hole they create by leaving.

[Keg]

True. Never said it was the cheapest option. Doing the ‘right thing’ often isn’t.

[Potsie Weber]

I’m confused as to what this thread is about now. Is it that Qantas pilots think they have a right to any job in the group when they want, when before they would be bagging the pilots out working these same jobs 12 months ago?


Perhaps it’s more a question of why is the government paying jobkeeper to stood down pilots whilst the company is recruiting pilots? That’s where the ire should be directed? Wake up AIPA!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Does National Jet have stood down pilots?

No. And I’m told the recruitment was entirely from within the group, no externals.

[Green.Dot]

No. And I’m told the recruitment was entirely from within the group, no externals.

Whoever is telling you that isn’t being entirely truthful. There are externals. Anyway, good luck to them

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Whoever is telling you that isn’t being entirely truthful. There are externals. Anyway, good luck to them

These externals, are they pilots off the street?

[brokenagain]

These externals, are they pilots off the street?

The job ad was on the QF jobs website until only a few days ago, type rated pilots only.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The job ad was on the QF jobs website until only a few days ago, type rated pilots only.

Excluding anyone without 717 time despite the externals probably needing an endorsement anyway is odd indeed. Especially when (I believe) Alan assured the pilot group that there would be no external hires.

[Telfer86]

Well if AJ has assured the pilot group this won't happen , then it is a done deal
It could be done without pomp & ceremony , no need for "authorities" , precedents or instruments or case law
or singing & dancing by the AIPA ; it really was a very simple thing to accomplish
The point I was making was that it didn't make a whole of sense to see the position advertised to externals
Think some of the big men & legends of pprune need to get a job/do further study as you won't be back for a couple of years

[Street garbage]

Well if AJ has assured the pilot group this won't happen , then it is a done deal
It could be done without pomp & ceremony , no need for "authorities" , precedents or instruments or case law
or singing & dancing by the AIPA ; it really was a very simple thing to accomplish
The point I was making was that it didn't make a whole of sense to see the position advertised to externals
Think some of the big men & legends of pprune need to get a job/do further study as you won't be back for a couple of years

"Jetstar will NEVER be more than 12 aircraft"
"All F/o's and S/o's will have the chance to bid for promotion in the next 5 years"
"Jetstar will never fly internationally"
"Jetstar Hong Kong is amazing"
"Red Q is amazing"
"Jetstar Asia is amazing"

Trusting Management to not go back on their word...worked out well for the Ground Staff, most who are having their last day today.

You really are naive and lack any experience in IR negotiations Telfer

[Roj approved]

"Jetstar will NEVER be more than 12 aircraft"
"All F/o's and S/o's will have the chance to bid for promotion in the next 5 years"
"Jetstar will never fly internationally"
"Jetstar Hong Kong is amazing"
"Red Q is amazing"
"Jetstar Asia is amazing"

Trusting Management to not go back on their word...worked out well for the Ground Staff, most who are having their last day today.

You really are naive and lack any experience in IR negotiations Telfer

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x480/63c62d71_be67_409d_8162_129ead10f485_68dc3969f5eee9e101f2352 ab8fffbc87e0f4f46.jpeg
Don’t forget, they don’t care about us

[WillieTheWimp]

Well if AJ has assured the pilot group this won't happen , then it is a done deal
It could be done without pomp & ceremony , no need for "authorities" , precedents or instruments or case law
or singing & dancing by the AIPA ; it really was a very simple thing to accomplish
The point I was making was that it didn't make a whole of sense to see the position advertised to externals
Think some of the big men & legends of pprune need to get a job/do further study as you won't be back for a couple of years

I can't work out if you're being facetious or just really naive. A gentlemen's agreement with the company is only valid for as long as it suits them. As soon as it doesn't—all bets are off and they won't bat an eyelid.

[blubak]

I can't work out if you're being facetious or just really naive. A gentlemen's agreement with the company is only valid for as long as it suits them. As soon as it doesn't—all bets are off and they won't bat an eyelid.
100% correct,u have to remember they are never wrong,its always the passengers or the media or the opposition(airline) or the employees or just the person that speaks up against them that is wrong.
They are a pack of right fighters & above all criticism & many laws also,money talks.

[Telfer86]

All great pilot fraternity jingoistic stuff , just unlikely to reflect reality

"Jetstar will NEVER be more than 12 aircraft"

Who & when said this. Obviously JQ had to reach 20 to 30 plus aircraft in the early days
This was never said by QF senior management

"All F/o's and S/o's will have the chance to bid for promotion in the next 5 years"

Again who & when was this said ? Doubt it was ever said
Even it it was, it is more of an economic forecast, which is what pilot promotions are ,depend on economic drivers , the world economy.
Which nobody at QF controls. Using such strong words of "all" & "will" - doubt it

"Jetstar will never fly internationally"

Again who said , and when ? Would obviously preclude them from going to NZ.
Challenge you to produce the time/day/person - it was never said

"Jetstar Hong Kong is amazing"
"Red Q is amazing"
"Jetstar Asia is amazing"

Have to concede the QF management, made every rookie error that could be made when they went to HK
& shot their mouths off about what they were going to do with JQ HK. When they had none of the ducks lined up.
You can get away with that kind of sh*t in Australia , but not in Asia. Don't turn up in Asia and do the "Aussie, Aussie , Aussie"
it just doesn't go down well. The end result , the local players lost face & went after QF, the end end result - no AOC granted
Think they lost $100 M (AUD) maybe even $200 M - Aussie Aussie Aussie

[DirectAnywhere]

"Jetstar will NEVER be more than 12 aircraft"

Who & when said this.

"All F/o's and S/o's will have the chance to bid for promotion in the next 5 years"

Again who & when was this said ?

1. Geoff Dixon, South Leagues Club, AIPA meeting 2002-ish.
2. Geoff Dixon, he didn't "say" this one, he wrote it, in a letter to all mainline crew in about 2003. I threw mine out but I know at least one copy still exists.

[morno]

1. Geoff Dixon, South Leagues Club, AIPA meeting 2002-ish.
2. Geoff Dixon, he didn't "say" this one, he wrote it, in a letter to all mainline crew in about 2003. I threw mine out but I know at least one copy still exists.

1. Maybe it was wayyyy more successful than they thought. They’d be stupid not to pursue it further then.

2. Come on, surely you blokes at QF have been around long enough not to hang your hat on that furphy :hmm:

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

The wording is important, and they’re not stupid. They wouldn’t say, for example, ‘Jetstar will never fly internationally’. What they say instead (and certainly did, in this case), is ‘There are no plans for Jetstar to fly internationally’. Which translates to ‘We have every intention of doing this, but haven’t quite finalised the plans yet.’

Telfer, I don’t know what your game is here, but the only person you’re convincing is yourself. Oh, and here’s the letter in question (not that I knew anyone who really believed it at the time):


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/36545057_125d_4b1a_9f09_e409a637b940_406fdb1924c89d482ad4e31 a67a139c2390c4bfe.jpeg

[Transition Layer]

The wording is important, and they’re not stupid. They wouldn’t say, for example, ‘Jetstar will never fly internationally’. What they say instead (and certainly did, in this case), is ‘There are no plans for Jetstar to fly internationally’. Which translates to ‘We have every intention of doing this, but haven’t quite finalised the plans yet.’

Telfer, I don’t know what your game is here, but the only person you’re convincing is yourself. Oh, and here’s the letter in question (not that I knew anyone who really believed it at the time):


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/36545057_125d_4b1a_9f09_e409a637b940_406fdb1924c89d482ad4e31 a67a139c2390c4bfe.jpeg
To be fair on old Geoffrey, the GFC kicked off about 2 weeks after the ink on that letter dried.

[morno]

The wording is important, and they’re not stupid. They wouldn’t say, for example, ‘Jetstar will never fly internationally’. What they say instead (and certainly did, in this case), is ‘There are no plans for Jetstar to fly internationally’. Which translates to ‘We have every intention of doing this, but haven’t quite finalised the plans yet.’

Telfer, I don’t know what your game is here, but the only person you’re convincing is yourself. Oh, and here’s the letter in question (not that I knew anyone who really believed it at the time):


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/36545057_125d_4b1a_9f09_e409a637b940_406fdb1924c89d482ad4e31 a67a139c2390c4bfe.jpeg

Wording is important, exactly. “Expect” means nothing.

If anyone made financial decisions based upon “expect”, then fools they are.

Your very letter there says that JQ would be getting 787’s. What did you think they were going to do with them? :hmm:

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Wording is important, exactly. “Expect” means nothing.

If anyone made financial decisions based upon “expect”, then fools they are.



:rolleyes: That’s exactly the point that we’re trying to make. Telfer believes that handshakes, gentleman’s agreements and the like would produce a worthwhile outcome here. History suggests otherwise, as does the wording the company likes to use in its assurances.


Your very letter there says that JQ would be getting 787’s. What did you think they were going to do with them?

WTF are you on about? Where did anyone say that the assurances about JQ not flying internationally happened at the same time as that letter came out? (They were about 3 years apart, from memory.) I think you’re missing the point here for the sake of being argumentative.

[Keg]

The comments about JQ not flying international were early in the piece. May have even been the same meeting where they talked about 12 aeroplanes. I recall something like ‘international flying doesn’t fit the low cost model’ or similar?

[Arthur D]

The comments about JQ not flying international were early in the piece. May have even been the same meeting where they talked about 12 aeroplanes. I recall something like ‘international flying doesn’t fit the low cost model’ or similar?

Is that ‘12’ the same as an Alliance ‘3’ or even ‘14’?

Amazing how 14 years later the rhetoric hasn’t changed. Yet bit by bit, the chipping continues.

What amazes me the most is that mainline pilots have sat back and accepted this with little more than a whimper, a PA and a red tie.

[Street garbage]

The comments about JQ not flying international were early in the piece. May have even been the same meeting where they talked about 12 aeroplanes. I recall something like ‘international flying doesn’t fit the low cost model’ or similar?

Correct Keg, those statements were made earlier, in 2004/ 2005, about the same time as the infamous "polluting our culture" occurred when AIPA's President (Woods) "negotiating" (that's one word for it) Mainline Pilots request to crew JQ.
Arthur D- also correct, whilst most of LH and over 1/2 of SH continue to be Stood Down, "Useful Work" is found for other crew in the Group. Yesterdays announcement will accelerate the reduction in crew numbers in B737 ADL base, whilst Perth B737 base continues to see a reduction in flying due to the arrival last week of another A320 for Network- does that make it 9? AIPA response? "We have a few questions..."...that from the email..is hardly reassuring..reach for the pineapple...again.


Back on topic- Qantas Mainline Recruitment? My opinion ...Not for the next 8 years.

[dr dre]

Yesterdays announcement will accelerate the reduction in crew numbers in B737 ADL base,

Management have directly stated that will not be happening.

[Beer Baron]

What amazes me the most is that mainline pilots have sat back and accepted this with little more than a whimper, a PA and a red tie.
It’s extremely had to counter these moves when having a scope clause or taking industrial action to pursue one is illegal.

No mainline pilot has lost his job (CR) as a result of these moves so proving harm is very difficult.

Transmission of business rules set an impossibly high bar to fight a case against.

A court case against an obvious shell company subsidy gets thrown out on jurisdictional grounds.

Even taking legal industrial action of the most minor variety gets shut down by the federal government.

AIPA very much has the cards stacked against it in fighting this erosion of flying. Despite that, after 2 decades of Qantas trying, mainline pilots still hold on to the majority of their hard won conditions. That ought to be more amazing.

[Telfer86]

All the guys claims are incorrect
1. Only 12 aircraft
2. Never fly internationally
3. All to upgrade in 5 years

The letter just says "expect" & based on the first 7 years of the century it is likely a reasonable call. QF don't run or control the US banking system & loan markets
& they didn't know it was about to collapse, in a lot of countries 25% plus of pilots hit the street. Remember age 65 had just come in & management didn't know how
that would impact. At least half of the guys stayed the full extra five years. & some beyond that , went to 737 & became unwell

Massive impact on upgrade

People claiming it was said "international doesn't fit low cost" might have been , probably just management being candid with you. LCC up to that point was primarily domestic
, nobody had really made medium range low cost work. The point is that it was not said that JQ would "never" fly internationally or would "never" exceed 12 airframes

Obviously been repeated so often that many actually believe it

Great Yarns , but that is all they are

[Street garbage]

Looking at your past posts Telfer, you know what the worse thing is about you? You take a perverse pleasure in the demise of our Industry. Whilst many thousands of us- you are not included include, because you are obviously not, from your zero knowledge of IR negotiations, zero knowledge of both LH and SH EA's- struggle with to make ends meet, you waltz on here with "gentlemans' handshakes" and singing "kumbayah" as Industrial Strategy. Why don't you take a trip to Byron Bay, tell all and sundry how wonderful you are, I am sure they need another muppet up there.

[Street garbage]

BTW Telfer, I blocked you, I had enough of your dribble.

[Street garbage]

It’s extremely had to counter these moves when having a scope clause or taking industrial action to pursue one is illegal.

No mainline pilot has lost his job (CR) as a result of these moves so proving harm is very difficult.

Transmission of business rules set an impossibly high bar to fight a case against.

A court case against an obvious shell company subsidy gets thrown out on jurisdictional grounds.

Even taking legal industrial action of the most minor variety gets shut down by the federal government.

AIPA very much has the cards stacked against it in fighting this erosion of flying. Despite that, after 2 decades of Qantas trying, mainline pilots still hold on to the majority of their hard won conditions. That ought to be more amazing.

We've held on to those conditions- fantastic- but at what cost to promotion? Average time to Command in 2005 was about 12 years. Before Covid hit- about 21 years.

[Beer Baron]

We've held on to those conditions- fantastic- but at what cost to promotion? Average time to Command in 2005 was about 12 years. Before Covid hit- about 21 years.
Believe me, I’m not happy about the situation, it infuriates me but I’m realistic about who’s at fault and it ain’t AIPA.

[Keg]

BTW Telfer, I blocked you, I had enough of your dribble.

I’d previously had them blocked. Couldn’t remember why so unblocked them to read this part of the thread. It became clear why I had blocked them in the first place so back on they went.

[Transition Layer]

I’ve stolen the below analysis from Qrewroom. I haven’t checked the numbers but have no reason to doubt their accuracy:

In 2002 the Qantas jet fleet composition was :

B744: 25
B747: 8
B767: 29
B737: 48
A330: 2 ( Mainline Total: 112)

Bae146: 17
B717: 14

Total: 143

Fast forward to 2021 and the Qantas Group jet fleet consists of:

A330: 28
A380: 12
B737: 75
B787: 11 (Mainline Total: 126)

JQ
B787: 11
A321: 26
A320: 53 (+Asia/Japan) 42

NatJet
B717: 20

Network
F100: 17
A320: 6 (+5)

EFA
B737: 5
B767: 1
A321: 1

Total 308.

So in 18 years Mainline has progressed from 112 to 126, and the Qantas Group has moved from 143 to 308.

Now Alliance E190: 3(+12)


Sobering stuff :bored:

[Arthur D]

We've held on to those conditions- fantastic- but at what cost to promotion? Average time to Command in 2005 was about 12 years. Before Covid hit- about 21 years.

I think that sums it up perfectly. The days of getting the money and the box are well and truly over.

If you want a gig in mainline, on mainline coin, then 21 years ++ to command should be your expectation.

If you want quick promotion, then pick somewhere else.

What will be fascinating to see over the next decade or so is what happens when there is no more growth in the alternative airline?

21 years to command in mainline pays a hell of a lot better than 21 years in Jetstar, QantasLink, Alliance etc. etc.

[Telfer86]

Guys come on here & make screeching emotive statements, lose the discussion & play the man

Oh how it upsets be so , as that great crooner Kamal once said "why oh why are people so unkind ?"

All I did was point out that those statements were never made , & that a significant reason for the delay in commands was that the majority of guys stayed well past 60 as soon as they had the opportunity. Can't you see how they stay long time after 60 brigade have had a significant effect on command time

I certainly don't take any perverse pleasure in the economic & other carnage this virus has taken on travel sector, & people employed there. What an odd comment

I was saying at outset that getting 50% of international back within 2 years would be a great achievement, got howled down , think someone called be a narcissist
& guys were still in fantasy land that A350s were coming

Turns out likely we won't even have 5% international back within two years - & it's a tragedy

Not very sophisticated to simply abuse someone because they have a different viewpoint (doesn't phase me) . Lot of guys here seem to have very simplistic thinking about very detailed & complicated problems - "it will all be over by Christmas kind of stuff". Don't think the CEO has helped by big talking numbers re; domestic recovery that are just nonsense

The 21 years to LHS no way that is an average number , typically 14 years , sometimes tad higher sometimes lower, think Perth 737 lhs was ten years

The guys who have really lost are career FO/SOs some of whom occupied these positions decade in decade out. Understand a lot of the Ansett hires from 2001/2002 are still SOs. All of the 380/747 FO/SOs could have upgraded & will pay a price for having a flat earth theory

Think we will be lucky to be at 25% three years in

But if you want to believe the 380s are coming back , 350s will be ordered , all going to go gangbusters - that is your right. I think it's going to take at least 3 years possibly even five or more to get back to 50% of pre-covid international

[Ragnor]

I’d rather do 21 yrs at JQ than 1 at mainline. Just me tho.

[ScepticalOptomist]

21 years to command in mainline pays a hell of a lot better than 21 years in Jetstar, QantasLink, Alliance etc. etc.

True - lifestyle is a mix of a bunch of factors. Some like the quick command, others the lifestyle of a legacy airline. Not much use for the command if it pays less than you need / want.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I’d rather do 21 yrs at JQ than 1 at mainline. Just me tho.

We need people like you. Not everyone gets into mainline. If you’re happy at JQ, that’s great.

[aussieflyboy]

Management have directly stated that will not be happening.

Management spent 6 months telling NJS Perth crew “ The Perth base is essential for the continued operation of the 717” ask those folks (and their families) how that’s going for them...

[Fujiroll76]

But if you want to believe the 380s are coming back , 350s will be ordered , all going to go gangbusters - that is your right. I think it's going to take at least 3 years possibly even five or more to get back to 50% of pre-covid international


What don’t you just say 8 or 10 years...it’s just as easy to say 10. Absolute dribble

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

It’s extremely had to counter these moves when having a scope clause or taking industrial action to pursue one is illegal.

No mainline pilot has lost his job (CR) as a result of these moves so proving harm is very difficult.

Transmission of business rules set an impossibly high bar to fight a case against.

A court case against an obvious shell company subsidy gets thrown out on jurisdictional grounds.

Even taking legal industrial action of the most minor variety gets shut down by the federal government.

AIPA very much has the cards stacked against it in fighting this erosion of flying. Despite that, after 2 decades of Qantas trying, mainline pilots still hold on to the majority of their hard won conditions. That ought to be more amazing.
AIPA doesn’t need to keep pushing to gain coverage of those crews. Talk about conflict of interest. The rainbows and lollipops idea of covering all group pilots as being the best scenario for all is BS.

[dr dre]

Management spent 6 months telling NJS Perth crew “ The Perth base is essential for the continued operation of the 717” ask those folks (and their families) how that’s going for them...

The runs to ASP and DRW were only a small part of ADL base’s work. Most of it was J curve. They’ll be needed in similar numbers when the domestic network is back to normal.

[Icarus2001]

The runs to ASP and DRW were only a small part of ADL base’s work. Most of it was J curve. They’ll be needed in similar numbers when the domestic network is back to normal Isn’t that where Alliance comes in with their Ejets?

[dr dre]

Isn’t that where Alliance comes in with their Ejets?

To ASP and DRW only. Maybe AYE as well. Because the loads favour a smaller jet. But the runs along the J curve (SYD, MEL, BNE) have always demanded higher passenger loads. From what is being said once it’s back to normal ADL base will be busy enough doing capital city flights alone.

[goodonyamate]

To ASP and DRW only. Maybe AYE as well. Because the loads favour a smaller jet. But the runs along the J curve (SYD, MEL, BNE) have always demanded higher passenger loads. From what is being said once it’s back to normal ADL base will be busy enough doing capital city flights alone.

In their own unique way :p

[Walk around]

Network are only accepting internals with previous F100 or A320 experience. Apart from those who did MOU time at JQ, the numbers would be limited.

The cynic in me would suggest it is deliberate ploy to lock out Mainline Pilots, but the reality is that it’s an employers market right now and plenty of Airbus experienced expats would be flooding home to jump at the chance.

Is Network still accepting positions on the F100 as DEC or FO?

[BravoSierraLima]

An article was published in The Age/SMH a week ago and a Qantas manager was quoted as saying they expect to hire pilots late 2022 if the recovery goes the way they want it to. I can't post links.

[SixDemonBag]

Heard from a few that recruitment might be starting up again. Nothing specific. Wouldn’t surprise me.

[scottybne]

Hi everyone, Any updates in regards to cabin crew on active hold for QF

Has training cabin school training started again ?

[Green.Dot]

Despite Telfers constant doom and gloom of the world ending, QF recruitment will be going gang busters soon enough. Be ready!

[scottybne]

Despite Telfers constant doom and gloom of the world ending, QF recruitment will be going gang busters soon enough. Be ready!


gang busters ey 😂 I’ve been on active hold since March 😅

[cloudsurfng]

Assuming the 380’s they’ve mentioned come back, with the 3 787’s, different mix of flying on the 330, and longer pacific sectors planned for the 737 we are massively short of crew. Of course that assumes everything goes close to plan. Throw in some 3 fiddies and it will probably be the biggest recruiting drive they’ve done.

of course, someone somewhere sneezes and the snot is a different colour, we’re back where we started….

[ScepticalOptomist]

Despite Telfers constant doom and gloom of the world ending, QF recruitment will be going gang busters soon enough. Be ready!

Agreed. After every bust cycle there’s a boom cycle. Rinse and repeat.

[Green.Dot]

gang busters ey 😂 I’ve been on active hold since March 😅

Well if you expected to get a phone call with a start date between then and now you are in the wrong industry. (In fact don’t expect a phone call- It’ll be a very generic email!). There will continue to be speed humps :ok:

[planedriver]

Heard 100 crew needed with recruitment starting March?

[mohikan]

There are 200+ of the most junior crew on long term leave without pay. They will need to be recalled and re-trained before external pilots are hired.

There are the remainder of the B744 pilots who will need to be re-allocated and re-trained.

No A380s are currently flying. All A380 crew are available for movement onto other fleets (if needed).

Many A330 crew are stood down still or on partial pay.

Due to the border closures in WA and QLD the 737 pilot workforce is not being properly utilized. In addition a large amount of that workforces flying has or is going to be outsourced to Alliance and Network in the coming years.

There will not be a need for pilot recruiting in QF for a very very long time. And with commands now running at 18+ years you will be a co-pilot for the majority of your career now.

[Green.Dot]

Mohikan, you are missing the A350 bit, Sunrise is slated to start 2024 and I too think it’s QFs chance to monopolise/gain market share/expand with direct flights.

And you haven’t mentioned the VRs, early retirements and people just pulling the pin because it’s not the same job.

Maybe you are spot on with your timeline, but I hope you are wrong :}

[SixDemonBag]

Domestic is slated to be 110% of pre-COVID levels in the new year (similar to what’s happening in the states). 78 is stretched with the current schedule, hence the 200 non-revenue sectors the fleet will be doing to get crew checked out (not to mention the lack of airframes

BTW 380 just getting announced to come back by Christmas.

Going to need pilots

[cloudsurfng]

Bust to boom again

[ANCDU]

It’s great news but I take it with a grain of salt…I remember earlier this year the chorus of 110% domestic capacity being spruiked around the network, to be stood down just weeks later.
Sure, the situation is different with the vaccines, but with a huge spike of cases in the UK and with variants of Delta emerging how popular will travel to other destinations actually be for leisure travel other than visiting family?

[Bleve]

... how popular will travel to other destinations actually be for leisure travel other than visiting family?

Qantas plans nationwide restart of international tourism from December 21 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-22/qantas-international-travel-restart/100559036)

We'll know soon enough.

[C441]

BTW 380 just getting announced to come back by Christmas.
One back by year's end to manage crew training with another back early in the new year to commence Sydney-LAX ops in April.
Three more from July 2022 with the remaining 5 back in service through to 2024.

Some better news than most Qantas A380 pilots have heard in the last 20 months.

[scottybne]

Well if you expected to get a phone call with a start date between then and now you are in the wrong industry. (In fact don’t expect a phone call- It’ll be a very generic email!). There will continue to be speed humps :ok:


I currently work in the tourism industry, so my expectations are as much as they’ve been for the last 6months. However needless to say things are on the way up!

there is always a light at the end of the tunnel! AJ was on sunrise this morning announcing they’re taking out there A380 out of desert storage in preparation for Christmas!

Fingers, Toes, everything crossed we can all get back to normal 👌🏻

[Keg]

Within 18 months we need to promote 20-30 A330 Captains and F/Os, and another 50 A380 Captains and F/Os. About 160 long haul promotions.

Does anyone think we’re currently more than that in excess in the S/O ranks? (Hint, we’re not).

Recruiting by July is my assessment… perhaps earlier. Maybe not 16 per month but I suspect enough trickling in that we can ramp up if needed.

[mohikan]

Mohikan, you are missing the A350 bit, Sunrise is slated to start 2024 and I too think it’s QFs chance to monopolise/gain market share/expand with direct flights.

And you haven’t mentioned the VRs, early retirements and people just pulling the pin because it’s not the same job.

Maybe you are spot on with your timeline, but I hope you are wrong :}

The A350 will never fly in Qantas colors. Alan's focus is on Alliance and Network and all his other industrial relations wedges.

Remember Qantas as an airline only exists for management to make war on its staff. The fact it fly's people any where for the occasional profit is immaterial.

[dr dre]

The A350 will never fly in Qantas colors. Alan's focus is on Alliance and Network and all his other industrial relations wedges.

Remember Qantas as an airline only exists for management to make war on its staff. The fact it fly's people any where for the occasional profit is immaterial.

AJ became CEO in 2008. Since then we’ve heard that Jetstar will take over mainline, that RedQ will take over mainline, that Jetconnect will take mainline, that Network will take over mainline, that an externally crewed 787/350 company will take over mainline, that Alliance will take over mainline.

And yet 13 years down the track mainline is still here, and maybe a year from now will be back at 2019 levels of flying where recruiting was going at full steam.

You don’t think that if there was this grand plan to get rid of mainline they would’ve done it a lot earlier and not waited over 13 years to put it into action? With all the industrial shocks and opportunities it’s never come to fruition has it? If any entity was going to take over mainline it would have been JQ, but a mainline operation has co existed alongside them and will continue to do so in the future.

Maybe your grand conspiracy theory is just a theory?

[morno]

AJ became CEO in 2008. Since then we’ve heard that Jetstar will take over mainline, that RedQ will take over mainline, that Jetconnect will take mainline, that Network will take over mainline, that an externally crewed 787/350 company will take over mainline, that Alliance will take over mainline.

And yet 13 years down the track mainline is still here, and maybe a year from now will be back at 2019 levels of flying where recruiting was going at full steam.

You don’t think that if there was this grand plan to get rid of mainline they would’ve done it a lot earlier and not waited over 13 years to put it into action? With all the industrial shocks and opportunities it’s never come to fruition has it? If any entity was going to take over mainline it would have been JQ, but a mainline operation has co existed alongside them and will continue to do so in the future.

Maybe your grand conspiracy theory is just a theory?

It’s not even a theory, it’s just a conspiracy.

I’ve had my opinions on the mainline operation plenty of times before, but I agree with you, if there really was some plan, I’m sure it would have been actioned by now.

Qantas will fly the A350.

[smiling monkey]

Well, no-one thought Network would be operating ex Jetstar aircraft painted in Qantaslink colours. And I wouldn't be surprised if these Network A320s start doing Jetstar routes out of Perth to Bali and Singapore.

[SHVC]

As long as Lord Daddy has his way, there will be no flights to Bali anytime soon. End of 2022 of you're lucky.

[dr dre]

Well, no-one thought Network would be operating ex Jetstar aircraft painted in Qantaslink colours. And I wouldn't be surprised if these Network A320s start doing Jetstar routes out of Perth to Bali and Singapore.

At the moment those ex JQ 320s have issues doing any sectors at all....

Like others have said there’s always this thought of a “grand conspiracy” to eradicate mainline. If that were to happen wouldn’t the biggest shock to commercial aviation since WW2 have been the perfect catalyst to do it? And what has been the reality, a pay freeze on the next EBAs? That’s it? That’s substantially better than a lot of other airlines including Australia’s other airline.

If management have this overarching idea to get rid of mainline they’re not very competent or willing to carry it out as far as I can see.

As long as Lord Daddy has his way, there will be no flights to Bali anytime soon. End of 2022 of you're lucky.

I always look at what’s written between the lines. Statements that full domestic schedule to all states from Perth is due to reopen Feb 1 (post school holidays).

And a cryptic but telling comment in the last press release that enough information on travel and border policy has been gained from all states is now sufficient to stand up all crew now with no plans for any more stand downs. Now as a big proportion of crew, especially CC, are needed to operate widebody transcons then these statements and actions wouldn’t have been made if behind the scenes airlines weren’t being told more about reopening plans than governments reveal in press releases because I don’t think they would hesitate to stand down any crew if they needed to.

It’s like the CEO of Cricket Aus saying he’s very confident after negotiations the 5th Ashes cricket in Perth will go ahead as scheduled 5 days after the SCG test, so obviously he (as a business leader, like airline managers) are being given more information than us plebs are given through the mass media.

[Bull_Shark]

Well, no-one thought Network would be operating ex Jetstar aircraft painted in Qantaslink colours. And I wouldn't be surprised if these Network A320s start doing Jetstar routes out of Perth to Bali and Singapore.

There’s quite a lot of excited chatter coming from the Red rat Airbus outfit over west.

They’re going to be taking over a large proportion of mainline flying out of Perth, some of the NEOs on order are to be diverted west and a whole lot of new and existing international routes will be flown. With all this vast Airbus experience they’re now accumulating there’s talk they’ll be crewing Operation Sunrise using A350s too!

If you don’t believe it just ask anyone there and they’ll tell you!

[cloudsurfng]

There’s quite a lot of excited chatter coming from the Red rat Airbus outfit over west.

They’re going to be taking over a large proportion of mainline flying out of Perth, some of the NEOs on order are to be diverted west and a whole lot of new and existing international routes will be flown. With all this vast Airbus experience they’re now accumulating there’s talk they’ll be crewing Operation Sunrise using A350s too!

If you don’t believe it just ask anyone there and they’ll tell you!

I heard they’re taking the 380 flying too. Also, I’m sure eastern and sunstate are getting jets ‘next year’.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

My daughter told all her friends she’s getting a pony for Christmas.

Reality is a b*tch.

[dr dre]

There’s quite a lot of excited chatter coming from the Red rat Airbus outfit over west.

They’re going to be taking over a large proportion of mainline flying out of Perth, some of the NEOs on order are to be diverted west and a whole lot of new and existing international routes will be flown. With all this vast Airbus experience they’re now accumulating there’s talk they’ll be crewing Operation Sunrise using A350s too!

If you don’t believe it just ask anyone there and they’ll tell you!

Given the fact they’re having personnel shortages during the one time in aviation history it should be very easy to hang onto crew I guess they need to entice people not to leave somehow.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

There’s quite a lot of excited chatter coming from the Red rat Airbus outfit over west.

They’re going to be taking over a large proportion of mainline flying out of Perth, some of the NEOs on order are to be diverted west and a whole lot of new and existing international routes will be flown. With all this vast Airbus experience they’re now accumulating there’s talk they’ll be crewing Operation Sunrise using A350s too!

If you don’t believe it just ask anyone there and they’ll tell you!

I look forward to seeing all that unfold……:rolleyes:

The shame of it is that the devotees among them truly believe it’s going to happen.

[Keg]

Lol. Is that like how JQ were going to fly all the red tail QF 787s? I remember that one getting a run for months on PPRUNE!

[Ollie Onion]

Does it really matter who flies them? It is jobs in the group so what is the problem?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Does it really matter who flies them? It is jobs in the group so what is the problem?

From that comment I presume you’re not mainline.

From someone who is, I’d say - yes it matters who fly them. Career stagnation directly caused by the growth of other entities is a real effect.

I would never begrudge another pilot earning a dollar, but your comment is a little naive if you believe it.

[Keg]

Does it really matter who flies them? It is jobs in the group so what is the problem?

Really Ollie?

Well yes, yes it does. If Network were to be given 12 A350s they’d be recruiting like crazy. The F/O that joined two years ago is a Captain in another two.

Meanwhile the 20 year F/O in mainline watches their command slide to the right by another decade.

So who flies new long haul aeroplanes is massively important.

QF has repeatedly said how the business case for Sunrise is even stronger now. QF told mainline pilots there was a deadline to sign on to the A350 under terms and conditions set by the company that would satisfy the business case. Mainline pilots agreed to those terms. I can’t see QF now reneging on that deal. I’m not even sure they’d be able to.

So any Network pilot spruiking that they are going to be flying QF A350s is deluding themselves and others.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Yes, worth considering that most recent LH EA that the company railroaded through. The wins for the company were really all to do with the A350; everything else was pretty good for the pilots. Would the company really just give up what they were so desperate to have?

[cloudsurfng]

Does it really matter who flies them? It is jobs in the group so what is the problem?


im sure when jq light starts up you’ll care. Or maybe you won’t because you got your command in jq mark 1 after a long 2 years as FO. But at 20 years, yes, it’s farking important

[Ollie Onion]

I understand those points Keg, I guess what I am saying is you can stress about ‘who gets the planes’ all you like but ultimately Management will do whatever they fell like doing. At the end of the day if they decide to give some of the airframes to Network or Qlink or Jetstar at least it is still expansion in the Group and that could well bring opportunities for pilots across the group, Personally I can’t see the Sunrise aircraft going anywhere but Mainline as the Company spent a lot of time negotiating the terms of this. I absolutely could see a time in the future where more Qantas branded aircraft are flown by entities such as Jetconnect and Network and were Group Pilots can transfer between the entities with relative ease.

[Thumb War]

Group Pilots can transfer between the entities with relative ease.


Don’t see that happening. Would be nice if it were so and would also be nice if there’d been a group seniority list with standardized pay rather than constant playing off of subsidiaries against eachother. More chance of winning the lottery though I’d say

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

When the whole point is ‘divide and conquer’, no, group pilots won’t be transferring between entities with ease.