Qantas Recruitment

[Contigo]

Can anyone shine some light on the current training timelines for both LH and SH. Once inducted etc which I guess will take a few weeks how long until checked to line? Are the big delays in each stream? I have heard that some LH are being sent international to do Sims etc is this likely for SH as well or is it most likely to be done at your base? Or domestically at least?

The LH EA discusses training salaries but the SH doesn't really go into this in too much detail. Could you also explain what sort of minimum pay might be expected for SH training? I will have to move for SH but potentially will commute for LH depending on base and trying to work out feasibility of each option.

Lots of questions I know. Thanks in advance

[morno]

Can anyone shine some light on the current training timelines for both LH and SH. Once inducted etc which I guess will take a few weeks how long until checked to line? Are the big delays in each stream? I have heard that some LH are being sent international to do Sims etc is this likely for SH as well or is it most likely to be done at your base? Or domestically at least?

The LH EA discusses training salaries but the SH doesn't really go into this in too much detail. Could you also explain what sort of minimum pay might be expected for SH training? I will have to move for SH but potentially will commute for LH depending on base and trying to work out feasibility of each option.

Lots of questions I know. Thanks in advance

If you come in as an S/O with an immediate upgrade to F/O, you’re paid as an S/O under training until such time as you check out as an F/O. There have been some exceptions to this (changed to normal S/O pay before training was finished) where the training has extended beyond reasonable timeframes from what I understand.

Some 737 F/O’s have been going to Dallas for their sim training. Also some A330 S/O’s have been going overseas too (Bangkok, Singapore).

[maggot]

If you come in as an S/O with an immediate upgrade to F/O, you’re paid as an S/O under training until such time as you check out as an F/O. There have been some exceptions to this (changed to normal S/O pay before training was finished) where the training has extended beyond reasonable timeframes from what I understand.
).

Yeah this is how it is in the awards, not really set up for this circumstance. It's pretty rough imo, wouldn't be hard to throw a bone to help the crews helping them out.

But yeah, welcome.....

[Contigo]

If you come in as an S/O with an immediate upgrade to F/O, you’re paid as an S/O under training until such time as you check out as an F/O. There have been some exceptions to this (changed to normal S/O pay before training was finished) where the training has extended beyond reasonable timeframes from what I understand.

Some 737 F/O’s have been going to Dallas for their sim training. Also some A330 S/O’s have been going overseas too (Bangkok, Singapore).

And any ideas regarding length of training I'm assuming FO training will be longer and more involved than SO?

[TimmyTee]

Any indications of QF throwing open the external recruitment doors for the numerous current 737 drivers looking for a change of scenery? Obviously would save Qantas a fair bit in training cost & time (assuming they stay true to their word of taking the 737)

[Brakerider]

Any indications of QF throwing open the external recruitment doors for the numerous current 737 drivers looking for a change of scenery? Obviously would save Qantas a fair bit in training cost & time (assuming they stay true to their word of taking the 737)

The email floating around suggests priority for 737 type rated candidates. I suggest this would carry over into any new external recruitment.

[Gnadenburg]

Any indications of QF throwing open the external recruitment doors for the numerous current 737 drivers looking for a change of scenery? Obviously would save Qantas a fair bit in training cost & time (assuming they stay true to their word of taking the 737)


To save money they’d have to put you through a short course. Are they doing that with pre-qualified 737 pilots?

[esreverlluf]

I have heard of ex Virgin 737 guys/gals individuals doing 4 sims and line training at QF. Much shorter than the standard QF course.

[clovehitch]

Anyone have insight into which fleet would be best for commuting as an SO? Would be flying in from a different east coast city to my base. I imagine the 787 is easier with longer trips. Or is there no point thinking about it because I won’t be given a choice?

[SixDemonBag]

Recruitment cranking up again in Oct?

[Freightdog87]

Recruitment cranking up again in Oct?

If if is hopefully those already on the hold file will get at least a tentative date, like internals.

Seems like a fair few pilots are needed until the next pandemic/GFC or whatever it is

[A320 Flyer]

Anyone have insight into which fleet would be best for commuting as an SO? Would be flying in from a different east coast city to my base. I imagine the 787 is easier with longer trips. Or is there no point thinking about it because I won’t be given a choice?

Melbourne probably…. You won’t get a choice (base or fleet) initially however it shouldn’t take too long to get your preference.

[dragon man]

Qantas set to outline fleet renewal plan at profit updateAyesha de Kretser (https://archive.md/o/pSEQR/https://www.afr.com/by/ayesha-de-kretser-p535y1)Senior reporterAug 6, 2023 – 4.15pm
Save

ShareKEY POINTS

Qantas is expected to update on plans to replace A330s
The airline could replace the fleet with Dreamliners and A350s
Analysts are split on how pending capex will impact returns

Qantas is expected to update the market on phase two of its fleet renewal plans when it reports this month, and expectations are mounting that the airline will be compelled to order the same Dreamliners it once held purchase options over and subsequently tore up.
Incoming chief executive Vanessa Hudson said last month that the airline would start a process to replace its 24 ageing A330 aircraft in the second half of this year, acknowledging that slots to receive new planes were filling up quickly in the post-pandemic aviation rebound (https://archive.md/o/pSEQR/https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/air-fares-soar-above-inflation-as-carriers-cash-in-20230507-p5d6f5). https://archive.md/pSEQR/99ec7b80aa7fce40241ecdfa9f012a007b6afd0d.webp The Boeing Dreamliner is an option for Qantas to replace its A330s. James D. Morgan Airbus and Boeing have both said new aircraft will not be delivered until the end of the decade, given big delays and manufacturing constraints that started with COVID-19.
Analysts said Qantas could evaluate ordering Boeing Dreamliners or the larger A350 from Airbus, rather than the A330 neo, depending on availability, as part of its flagged plans to streamline maintenance and promote interoperability between its long-haul domestic and international flights.
Ms Hudson will need to negotiate new terms in a white-hot market for new planes, after current chief executive Alan Joyce cancelled orders for 35 Dreamliners, which had a list price at the time of $8.5 billion, in 2012, and later cancelled options to buy 50 more (https://archive.md/o/pSEQR/https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-bucks-trend-by-deferring-aircraft-deliveries-20140424-i70fc).
Qantas will look to sell its A330s, or convert them to carry cargo, but one analyst said the potential to recoup much was less than it would have been six months ago, given the freight market is tipped to enter oversupply and lengthy conversion queues.
Analysts are divided on whether the upcoming spending will derail capital management plans, after Qantas returned $600 million to shareholders via buybacks in fiscal 2023.Pent-up demandMorningstar analyst Angus Hewitt said Qantas’ capital expenditure, including fleet renewal, maintenance and other costs, would more than double from $7 billion over the previous five years to $15 billion.
“Over the long term, we expect fleet expansion, replacement and refurbishment to absorb meaningful cash flow and constrain returns to shareholders,” Mr Hewitt said.
He said the idea of “stronger for longer” travel spending, or the notion that an economic downturn would not prompt a decline in spending on travel, was yet to be tested given pent-up demand from the pandemic and excess savings.
“Anyone that sells a discretionary good or service wants to talk about how their discretionary good or service is the least discretionary of discretionary goods or services,” Mr Hewitt said.
“I’m not buying that argument [about air travel]. It is discretionary. There is a lot of pent-up demand at the moment and that’s really driving tremendous profitability. We think this is about as good as it gets for airlines.”
However, JPMorgan analyst Anthony Longo said Qantas was the broker’s preferred pick this year, and “structural advantages domestically” would underpin earnings resilience.
“We are of the view Qantas’ fundamentals are unquestionably strong and aided by a rational domestic market and supply side constraints which are likely to keep airline yields high,” he said. “Additionally, Qantas Loyalty remains resilient, generating earnings growth and strong cash flow.”
Mr Longo said Qantas’ balance sheet was robust enough to support capital expenditure and maintain returns to shareholders.
“Qantas is targeting net debt of $2.7 billion to $2.9 billion for June 2023. With adherence to its financial framework, we believe this is strong enough to not only fund fleet refresh capex but also regular capital management,” he said.

WORD IS 14 x 787s and 12 more A350s for what it is worth.

[dejapoo]

And any ideas regarding length of training I'm assuming FO training will be longer and more involved than SO?

I was 6 months to day. Sims overseas too. Happens slowly. 50 odd sectors in jet was the training path.

[aussieflyboy]

I was 6 months to day. Sims overseas too. Happens slowly. 50 odd sectors in jet was the training path.

What was your monthly base salary for that 6 months?

[RealSatoshi]

WORD IS 14 x 787s and 12 more A350s for what it is worth.

With First Officer B-Scale to make it viable...

[Transition Layer]

With First Officer B-Scale to make it viable...
Hahaha good one!
”Strategic Imperatives” were so 2022. Not happening this time around :=

[gordonfvckingramsay]

With First Officer B-Scale to make it viable...

The problem is we widely accept the notion that pilots are expensive. Management create the fog that implies it and some of us breathe it in. It’s bull$hit, while airlines are price gouging and the post COVID works is going berserk, we are one of the cheaper parts of the operation. Besides, supply and demand 101 dictates the price, not some buzz word made up by some ****** earning twice what we are do. Strategic Imperatives…..if they were so damn “strategic” they wouldn’t be about to park new jets due to their mismanagement of supply and demand, but they will. Should have called it “tactical imperatives”, then it would sort of make sense, win the battle, lose the war.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I can't recall ever hearing a radio advertisement for QANTAS but there is currently one airing on commercial radio calling for pilots, cabin crew and engineers.

[Buckshot]

WORD IS 14 x 787s and 12 more A350s for what it is worth.

Thread drift but that doesn't seem enough frames to replace A330s and presumably the 380s within the next 10 years

[Hollywood1]

Thread drift but that doesn't seem enough frames to replace A330s and presumably the 380s within the next 10 years

Don't forget the 20 A321 XLRs that are due in late 2024

[soseg]

Don't forget the 20 A321 XLRs that are due in late 2024

75 B737s at the moment. The 321s will require from memory 3 per rank per frame more than the 737 so ideally need about 65ish to maintain the same pilot size in Short Haul.

Here’s a question for someone who might be able to dig up the info. What was the wide body fleet size in 2000, 2005 and 2010?

Someone recently posted on a work forum that 2005 was approx 75 Wbs. Down to 50 at the moment.
I would love to see how the international QF fleet has contracted over the last 25 years and which way passenger movements have gone.

Currently as it sits there is 14 B787s
10 A380s
and 26 or 28 A330s? Someone else can provide the exact figure.

We have lost 4 airbuses since Covid. The 330 retirements are due very soon as the domestic 330s are running out of cycles.

As I’ve stated and asked in previous posts, how many 747s did we retire in the last ten, fifteen and twenty years? What was the 767 fleet size?

I can’t be bothered looking up the exact numbers. Maybe some nerds on here know. But I’ll take a stab and make the claim that the 14 Dreamliners we have received since 2016, plus whatever the 380 and 330s have arrived in the last two decades haven’t really come close to replacing what we had back then. QF has contracted internationally, and 14 more 787s plus 24 total A350s doesnt seem like that much growth once we factor in the entire retirement of the 330 and eventually 380 fleets over the coming decade.

Hopefully these rumours are just the first batch and more orders will be made over the years. The overlap in fleets is where the progression will be made, plus the pulling of pilots into the training system and off the line while this all ramps up. If history repeats itself and this is all QF orders until 2035 then long term it won’t be any substantial growth.

[ShandywithSugar]

I can't recall ever hearing a radio advertisement for QANTAS but there is currently one airing on commercial radio calling for pilots, cabin crew and engineers.

Expect to hear soon how the Govt has pretty much put the brakes on the International recruitment drive.

[soseg]

Expect to hear soon how the Govt has pretty much put the brakes on the International recruitment drive.

Can you provide more information?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Thread drift but that doesn't seem enough frames to replace A330s and presumably the 380s within the next 10 years

Have heard the 380s around until 2033’ish and the numbers of training slots are eye watering for the next 5-10yrs.

[morno]

It would not surprise me if they’re only planning on replacing half of the 330’s at the moment, after all the youngest -200’s are only 12 or so years old. This mob doesn’t exactly plan that far ahead fleet wise, they can’t even decide beyond 20 321’s :ugh:

[Chad Gates]

The Cheif pilot told a meeting recently that all new orders will be in "tranches" as opposed to huge orders. This is for the benefit if the stock market which seems to be fine if JQ buys hundreds of aircraft, but goes into heart failure if Qantas buys more than 2. It does seem to be the new normal.

The training forcast for the 12 months after June 24 is for more than double this year. Numbers I've heard are in the 700's when talking about "training events". So that's promotions, type changes and initial endorsments for new second officers.
Endorsement training will happen all over the place, but as far as I understand, nobody will be forced to train offshore, but be prepared to be delayed through the process if you don't.


It's not all roses at the Q at the moment, but it's nothing like the doom and gloom that many (actual employees and pretenders) on here portray. If you're interested, apply. If you hate Qantas, don't. Good luck to all.

[aussieflyboy]

There’s obviously going to be a backlog in training. Someone above quoted it can take around 6 months at the moment.

Mainline Pilots pay for their own endorsements by getting paid a training wage. Is anyone willing to publicly confirm what the fortnightly take home pay is during training?

[Troo believer]

There’s obviously going to be a backlog in training. Someone above quoted it can take around 6 months at the moment.

Mainline Pilots pay for their own endorsements by getting paid a training wage. Is anyone willing to publicly confirm what the fortnightly take home pay is during training?
Another tosser.

[aussieflyboy]

Another tosser.

Is it not a reasonable question to ask on the Qantas Recruitment thread?

When there are a significant number of other opportunities both within the Qantas Group and externally it would be irresponsible not to factor in the initial reduced wage (and subsequent long term affect on your Super) and the length of time before upgrades are available at Mainline when comparing jobs.

[soseg]

Is it not a reasonable question to ask on the Qantas Recruitment thread?

When there are a significant number of other opportunities both within the Qantas Group and externally it would be irresponsible not to factor in the initial reduced wage (and subsequent long term affect on your Super) and the length of time before upgrades are available at Mainline when comparing jobs.

Your first six months during training at mainline could be unpaid and your super over your lifetime will be significantly better off at QF than anywhere else within the group.

[Lapon]

Your first six months during training at mainline could be unpaid and your super over your lifetime will be significantly better off at QF than anywhere else within the group.

But that doesn't answer aussies question does it.

[morno]

Is it not a reasonable question to ask on the Qantas Recruitment thread?

When there are a significant number of other opportunities both within the Qantas Group and externally it would be irresponsible not to factor in the initial reduced wage (and subsequent long term affect on your Super) and the length of time before upgrades are available at Mainline when comparing jobs.

Mate your training pay will probably last a grand total of 12 weeks, and compared to your base pay as a 330 or 380 SO is not hugely different. The rate is available in the EBA, it’s not difficult to find.

[aussieflyboy]

Your first six months during training at mainline could be unpaid and your super over your lifetime will be significantly better off at QF than anywhere else within the group.

That would very much depend on how old you are when you start. If you were to start at Network Av or NJS and have some Jet experience already you’ll get a quick command and be on $210K+ straight away working 50 odd hours a month.

If you start at QF it’ll take you quite a long while to earn that doing 50 hours a month.

If you were to head to the US with experience under your belt then you’ll be far far ahead then starting at QF.

[Duck Pilot]

Your first six months during training at mainline could be unpaid and your super over your lifetime will be significantly better off at QF than anywhere else within the group.

Unpaid whilst under training with Qantas???

How low can the Australian aviation industry go?

[morno]

That would very much depend on how old you are when you start. If you were to start at Network Av or NJS and have some Jet experience already you’ll get a quick command and be on $210K+ straight away working 50 odd hours a month.

If you start at QF it’ll take you quite a long while to earn that doing 50 hours a month.

If you were to head to the US with experience under your belt then you’ll be far far ahead then starting at QF.

Well then you appear to have all the answers, why bother asking? Off you go

[aussieflyboy]

Well then you appear to have all the answers, why bother asking? Off you go

If you’re a mainline Pilot why not just throw an answer up? Are you ashamed that you paid for your own endorsement?

[Check_Thrust]

Unpaid whilst under training with Qantas, if this is correct the aviation industry in Australia is totally f####d!

How low can the Australian aviation industry go?

They did not say pilots were unpaid whilst training. They made the [unsubstantiated] claim that even if they were unpaid during training they'd still be better off than other parts of the group.

[morno]

If you’re a mainline Pilot why not just throw an answer up? Are you ashamed that you paid for your own endorsement?

Because it’s easily obtainable and I don’t believe that I should have to go do your homework for you. If you genuinely are interested in joining mainline, then I would highly recommend reading the Longhaul EBA and getting your head around it, so that there’s no surprises when you join.

And you can claim that mainline pilots pay for their type ratings, but bloody hell if that’s the case, it’s the cheapest one I’ve ever got.

Don’t Atlas have training pay? Or is that allowed because it’s not Qantas?

[SixDemonBag]

That would very much depend on how old you are when you start. If you were to start at Network Av or NJS and have some Jet experience already you’ll get a quick command and be on $210K+ straight away working 50 odd hours a month.

If you start at QF it’ll take you quite a long while to earn that doing 50 hours a month.

If you were to head to the US with experience under your belt then you’ll be far far ahead then starting at QF.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x270/image_c8f413a061232eb3a3e95549772a465d3daac644.gif

[RealSatoshi]

Don’t Atlas have training pay? Or is that allowed because it’s not Qantas?

Actually, they don't...
On the B747 and B777 you'll be on US$97.60 per Hour at Minimum Guarantee of 64 Hours + Per Diems.

[MacTrim]

Hey, if I wanna 73’ with say Jitconnuckt, do I have to apply through the QF system… if the answer is Yes, I’m screwed 😐

[Lapon]

So Im following the nz thread or wages thread or something and people can answer a question, aussieflyguy asks what the training wage is at qantas mainline and it creates a ****estorm?

Makes me embarrassed to be an Australian but at least I don't work at Qantas if thats symbolic of the place.

[stillcallozhome]

Actually, they don't...
On the B747 and B777 you'll be on US$97.60 per Hour at Minimum Guarantee of 64 Hours + Per Diems.

Very true. And then year 2 pay is $129 per hour. That’s almost a 30k gap which is your “training pay”. This has been the case with first year pay in the US for decades. Same as SOT training pay at qf (obviously different amounts between qf and Giant and unlikely for it to be 12 months) in regards to there being a lower rate when you first start.

[morno]

Actually, they don't...
On the B747 and B777 you'll be on US$97.60 per Hour at Minimum Guarantee of 64 Hours + Per Diems.

+ Per Diems, isn’t that falsely inflating your pay? At least that’s what I’ve read from many who are **** canning pay at Qantas. So what you’re saying is that your base pay in the first year, is less than a Qantas SO? (97.60x64x12 = 74,956/0.67 = $111,875 AUD)

And I can’t say I have the pays in table format sorry Lapon, but you’re more than welcome to go look it up and create one. The main reason I can’t be arsed answering flyboys question is because he’s only out to try and substantiate a claim that mainline pilots pay for their type ratings (which is incorrect anyway), why waste my time :ugh:

[Duck Pilot]

They did not say pilots were unpaid whilst training. They made the [unsubstantiated] claim that even if they were unpaid during training they'd still be better off than other parts of the group.

That’s a total insult to every Australian Pilot, past and present if it’s correct!

Qantas displaying this behaviour towards Pilots is a Total insult to Australian Pilots!

[morno]

That’s a total insult to every Australian Pilot, past and present if it’s correct!

Qantas displaying this behaviour towards Pilots is a Total insult to Australian Pilots!

I think you’ve totally missed the point mate, no such claim was made :rolleyes:

[Duck Pilot]

I think you’ve totally missed the point mate, no such claim was made :rolleyes:

I stand corrected please elaborate and my point is that Australian Pilots are being paid poorly whilst under training, if that is correct.

[aussieflyboy]

+ Per Diems, isn’t that falsely inflating your pay? At least that’s what I’ve read from many who are **** canning pay at Qantas. So what you’re saying is that your base pay in the first year, is less than a Qantas SO? (97.60x64x12 = 74,956/0.67 = $111,875 AUD)

And I can’t say I have the pays in table format sorry Lapon, but you’re more than welcome to go look it up and create one. The main reason I can’t be arsed answering flyboys question is because he’s only out to try and substantiate a claim that mainline pilots pay for their type ratings (which is incorrect anyway), why waste my time :ugh:

No, I simply asked what a fortnightly or monthly take home pay would be for a Qantas Pilot under training. It sounds like anyone starting now will be on that pay for around 6 months.

If you’re stubborn enough not to realise why a training wage exits then that’s on you. I simply pointed out the obvious.

[morno]

No, I simply asked what a fortnightly or monthly take home pay would be for a Qantas Pilot under training. It sounds like anyone starting now will be on that pay for around 6 months.

If you’re stubborn enough not to realise why a training wage exits then that’s on you. I simply pointed out the obvious.

I’ll tell you what flyboy, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. It’s approximately (because I can’t be stuffed looking up the exact figure) $2,500k a fortnight before tax, and per diems. 6 months is probably not an accurate timeline for SO training at the moment, they’re getting through quite quickly in most cases (and going to Singapore for the 330, nice per diems there). I did mine in the planned 12 weeks.

So if you want to run with your claim of the training allowance paying for the type rating, I’ll do the maths for you. Difference in pay between a checked to line SO and an SOT for the 330 is approximately $6k (after tax) over the 12 week period. Can barely pay for 2 sessions in a sim with that. Little bit of a difference to Atlas which is around $30k (when you account for first year and second year pay difference).

[cxflog]

So strange there’s an obsession with “training pay”. Most airlines in the US do it, first year pay is 30-50% lower than second year, even at the legacies. When I first joined CX (RIP) I was paid $2k for 3 months of “training” for my licence conversion. Does it suck? Yes. Is it common? Absolutely.

[Fonz121]

My first 6 months was approximately $50k. That included allowances for training in Sydney. Still better than full pay at my previous RPT job.

[On Guard]

I’ll tell you what flyboy, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. It’s approximately (because I can’t be stuffed looking up the exact figure) $2,500k a fortnight before tax, and per diems. 6 months is probably not an accurate timeline for SO training at the moment, they’re getting through quite quickly in most cases (and going to Singapore for the 330, nice per diems there). I did mine in the planned 12 weeks.

So if you want to run with your claim of the training allowance paying for the type rating, I’ll do the maths for you. Difference in pay between a checked to line SO and an SOT for the 330 is approximately $6k (after tax) over the 12 week period. Can barely pay for 2 sessions in a sim with that. Little bit of a difference to Atlas which is around $30k (when you account for first year and second year pay difference).

Morno, I read in eba10 that SOT training pay just increased to about $3100/fort in July before tax. $12436/56 days. Is my reading correct?

Cheers

[morno]

Actually you could be correct On Guard, maybe it’s about $2,500 after tax, not before. Like I said, I couldn’t be bothered looking up the exact figure for a bloke (Flyboy) who’s done nothing but take the **** out of Qantas pay for a while now.

[Gnadenburg]

So strange there’s an obsession with “training pay”. Most airlines in the US do it, first year pay is 30-50% lower than second year, even at the legacies. When I first joined CX (RIP) I was paid $2k for 3 months of “training” for my licence conversion. Does it suck? Yes. Is it common? Absolutely.

My airline in the US can’t retain pilots so it’s full pay from day one. Wouldn’t have gone otherwise.

Incidentally, when I started flying airlines at Ansett, full pay plus $2000 cash. Middle East carrier after AN full pay. Cathay Dragon full pay, $5000 cash and an optional $20,000 interest free loan.

Hopefully this helps dispel any normalisation of training pay!

[transition_alt]

Why do people run around in circles on here?

Current QF SOT training salary is $12,436.69 per 56 day bid period.

That’s $80,838.49 annually plus allowances.

Training is around 12 weeks with expected training overseas as cyclic sims are prioritised for the Australian sims.

So expect $18,655.04 plus allowances. Gross $4,663.75 per fortnight

Presuming two weeks in Singapore, that’ll be $5,600 tax free allowances.

If Bangkok, that’ll be $3,990 tax free allowances.

Plus 10 weeks of Australian allowances if you train outside of your assigned base.

Current B scale SO base salary is just under $120k/year. So $27,616.44 every 12 weeks.

The pay difference between training wage and So salary $8,961.40 over 12 weeks.

If you upgrade internally, you will remain on your previous pay until checked to line. i.e. B737 FO to A330 FO, you will retain 737 pay until checked.

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[SandyPalms]

Why do people run around in circles on here?

the sane people who are interesting in QF already know all this. It’s only those who are desperate to justify some previous decision that keep throwing stones. Just ignore them.

[aussieflyboy]

With negotiations starting I think it’s important to point out areas where we can improve. There’s no reason to have a training wage (just like there was no reason to vote for a ‘B’ scale). It’s easy for us to sit back and ignore it but for many reading this thread it does or will impact them somewhat. We have an opportunity to improve. I’ll leave EA speak to other threads and let this thread get back on track.

[morno]

Negotiations aren’t starting, the current EBA hasn’t even expired.

[RealSatoshi]

+ Per Diems, isn’t that falsely inflating your pay? At least that’s what I’ve read from many who are **** canning pay at Qantas. So what you’re saying is that your base pay in the first year, is less than a Qantas SO? (97.60x64x12 = 74,956/0.67 = $111,875 AUD)

Firstly, it is not my pay as I am not associated with Atlas and the + Per Diems was included to show that you will actually get per diems on top of the hourly rate, while on training - for illustrative purposes.

Secondly, you spew on people for including Per Diems and the very next post you do the same... C'mon Man :}

It’s approximately (because I can’t be stuffed looking up the exact figure) $2,500k a fortnight before tax, and per diems. 6 months is probably not an accurate timeline for SO training at the moment, they’re getting through quite quickly in most cases (and going to Singapore for the 330, nice per diems there). I did mine in the planned 12 weeks.

[morno]

I actually did that more to take the piss out of you, I knew exactly what I did ;)

[soseg]

Unpaid whilst under training with Qantas???

How low can the Australian aviation industry go?

The key word there was could. It was a hypothetical.

[cLeArIcE]

So, with that huge allocation released recently at JQ, how many hold filers have turned down QF to stay for a Command or wide body slot. Heard it's quite a few.

[soseg]

With negotiations starting I think it’s important to point out areas where we can improve. There’s no reason to have a training wage (just like there was no reason to vote for a ‘B’ scale). It’s easy for us to sit back and ignore it but for many reading this thread it does or will impact them somewhat. We have an opportunity to improve. I’ll leave EA speak to other threads and let this thread get back on track.

You’re not bright are you?

Go through previous posts here. It’s been clearly explained the ultimatum that the former international CEO placed on LH pre Covid.

[aussieflyboy]

You’re not bright are you?

Go through previous posts here. It’s been clearly explained the ultimatum that the former international CEO placed on LH pre Covid.

I can assure you son that I’m bright enough to recognise ‘ultimatums’ made by people whose bonuses rely on achieving the lowest cost base from a Pilot group are ridiculous and should be completely ignored.

That concept is obviously missed by you.

[Beer Baron]

I can assure you son that I’m bright enough
Well you don’t seem too bright to me, coming on here asking Qantas pilots to interpret the EA for you and info on recruitment “for a mate”, when they are the same people you’ve made a habit of attacking with childish smart arse insults.
One thing Qantas Pilots are known for internationally is talking themselves up (and enjoying golf in the rain).

Qantas Pilots trying to inflate their poor base salary using allowances… nothing new.
The Bin Chickens of international aviation.
Little surprise no one wants to help you out.

[soseg]

I can assure you son that I’m bright enough to recognise ‘ultimatums’ made by people whose bonuses rely on achieving the lowest cost base from a Pilot group are ridiculous and should be completely ignored.

That concept is obviously missed by you.

Again, proving my point. Scroll through past posts here on pprune to get some context.

You're either stupid or you're blind. Do you need crutches for your eyes?

Choose one.

[aussieflyboy]

Again, proving my point. Scroll through past posts here on pprune to get some context.

You're either stupid or you're blind. Do you need crutches for your eyes?

Choose one.

Keep voting yes champ. Maybe they’ll let you be Captain one day.

[soseg]

Keep voting yes champ. Maybe they’ll let you be Captain one day.

Oof. Champ. Nice.

[kcboy]

So, with that huge allocation released recently at JQ, how many hold filers have turned down QF to stay for a Command or wide body slot. Heard it's quite a few.

have heard heaps to turn QF down

[Ranger290]

Upon joining QF as an FO will this result in becoming a 73 captain quicker then going the 78 SO route ? Or is the seniority number the only thing that matters. Any insight here would be appreciated.

[Fuel-Off]

Upon joining QF as an FO will this result in becoming a 73 captain quicker then going the 78 SO route ? Or is the seniority number the only thing that matters. Any insight here would be appreciated.

Say it after me, 'Seniority, Seniority, Seniority'

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Ranger290]

So if I’m understanding that correctly I could sit as a SO for 10 years and then bid for captain spot on 73 and that would be no slower than sitting as an FO for 10 years and then upgrading.

[Lapon]

So if I’m understanding that correctly I could sit as a SO for 10 years and then bid for captain spot on 73 and that would be no slower than sitting as an FO for 10 years and then upgrading.

Your understanding of a seniorty system is correct (assuming you meet the usual upgrade requirements too of course).

[Chad Gates]

So if I’m understanding that correctly I could sit as a SO for 10 years and then bid for captain spot on 73 and that would be no slower than sitting as an FO for 10 years and then upgrading.

kind of. You'd have to be assessed as suitable by the CAAC , which is the aircrew assessment committee. All pilots are assessed by the CAAC before promotion (either CAPT or FO). They may require certain requirements before they'd allow you to do that.

[Poto]

So if I’m understanding that correctly I could sit as a SO for 10 years and then bid for captain spot on 73 and that would be no slower than sitting as an FO for 10 years and then upgrading.

Not Quite. Company FO time required for command. Some exceptions for ex wide body experience with other operators. All assessed by the CAAC.

[soseg]

So if I’m understanding that correctly I could sit as a SO for 10 years and then bid for captain spot on 73 and that would be no slower than sitting as an FO for 10 years and then upgrading.

Technically yes. Hope you have a lot of prior experience and it comes back fast.

Anecdotally I’ve heard that SO to FO upgrades spike in failure rates around the 7 year mark. Command upgrade would be much more rigorous.

[A320 Flyer]

You can’t go SO to Captain unless you’ve been a group FO/Captain in the previous 5 years

[Australopithecus]

So if I’m understanding that correctly I could sit as a SO for 10 years and then bid for captain spot on 73 and that would be no slower than sitting as an FO for 10 years and then upgrading.

After ten years you can indeed bid for that left hand seat. Then maybe grab a right seat for the next ten years waiting for your number to come up. But it won’t be on a 737.

[Ranger290]

So if my main goal was to become a captain as quick as possible on either a 737 or 787 technically starting as an FO or SO wouldn’t make much difference?

[morno]

Nope, and I reckon they will have retired the 787’s by the time you have the seniority for a command on them.

[soseg]

So if my main goal was to become a captain as quick as possible on either a 737 or 787 technically starting as an FO or SO wouldn’t make much difference?
If your goal is become a captain ASAP then take the first offer to secure the best seniority number you can ASAP.

After you have secured it, make sure you build up to the company minimums for a command upgrade if you don't already have them.

[aussieflyboy]

If you want to be a Qantas Captain quickly you’d be better off applying to Jetconnect or NJS. If you have jet time already it’ll take you less then 6 months I’d say.

[seven3seven]

If you want to be a Qantas Captain quickly you’d be better off applying to Jetconnect or NJS. If you have jet time already it’ll take you less than 6 months I’d say.
They said a Qantas captain, not a bin chicken captain.

[Ranger290]

With all of the new pay rates and conditions greatly improved for all US pilots, keen to hear on the opinion of others in here if they’ve made the move over to the states or ones that already have if they would make the move back to australia for qantas.

[Verbal Kint]

I left Qantas as a 767 FO in 2006 & now work for United.

There’s absolutely no comparison between working for a major over here, & what is available back home.

[Ranger290]

I’m in a similar boat between choosing United or either qantas. I always had the assumption qantas had the best conditions, pay etc in aviation but now that it’s time to make the decision it’s not so easy.

[Verbal Kint]

Unfortunately T&C’s in Australia have gone nowhere. The reasons why have been discussed elsewhere (lack of a strong over-arching union, small industry & therefore lack of options etc … ).

But for a simple comparison, as a 2nd year narrowbody FO here I’ll earn over 300K AUD + 17% direct retirement contribution. Not including per diems of course 😄.

[VH-RME]

I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future

To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice

I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different

[A320 Flyer]

Unfortunately T&C’s in Australia have gone nowhere. The reasons why have been discussed elsewhere (lack of a strong over-arching union, small industry & therefore lack of options etc … ).

But for a simple comparison, as a 2nd year narrowbody FO here I’ll earn over 300K AUD + 17% direct retirement contribution. Not including per diems of course 😄.

You left in 2006 and now a second year FO…. Huh?

[Verbal Kint]

15 years at another foreign major in between.

[walesregent]

I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future

To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice

I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different

I don’t buy the logic that because airlines in the US are bigger companies than Qantas they can afford to pay their crew more. Pilots aren’t involved in sales or any other direct revenue stream (unlike tech and finance) so it comes down to how productively someone else can utilise our services. Qantas does a pretty good job of extracting near max hours out of its crew and in selling max seats (at extremely high prices of late) per flight. US carriers aren’t getting any better value out of their crew, they are just getting crunched by a labour shortage- which seems to be cropping up here too. As long as there isn’t too much political interference market forces should have a similar outcome here. Of course, thwarting the market is AJ’s main job but there are natural limits.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future

To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice

I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different

Isn’t it interesting that these highly qualified financial gurus advising the airline industry seem to adore the Supply and Demand model when it suits, but seem to be somewhat obtuse when the pilots are the ones in demand. Cough up or park airframes, simple equation if you ask me.

[Verbal Kint]

I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future

To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice

I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be differentThe US is not everyone’s cup of tea, so I understand your strong preference to live in Australia.

The disparity between top US & Australian airlines has little to do with affordability - look at what Alan Joyce earns compared to his equivalents at overseas airlines many times the size of Qantas! Does QF actually fly anywhere these days?

It’s disappointing to watch Australian pilots undercut each other to secure future flying. The lack of scope protection is the primary reason airline salaries in Australia are what they are. Airline management will continue to play pilot groups off against each other to maintain downwards pressure on conditions.

James Strong started it, Dixon perfected it, Joyce capitalized on it. Look at the B (or is it C?) scale for 787 S/O’s, and soon 350 S/O’s. No doubt pending A220 deliveries to subsidiaries will be used by management to whipsaw the upcoming SH EBA talks.

I left as Jetstar Intl. was starting up, and it became pretty damn clear how future flying would be allocated. I recall AIPA urging Longhaul pilots to vote in EBA 3 (?) to “get a seat at the Jetstar International table”. By then, we’d already lost most of our 767 Tasman flying to Jetconnect.

Having direct experience of both mainline Qantas and US Majors, there is no contest. Obviously you have to be a US Permanent Resident to play. However, plenty of E3 folk have attained green cards and found forever homes here at the majors.

[Makiko]

These "Stories" are always the same

Guys crowing how they played the game & won

Each to their own & free to work/ live wherever wish

But I would have thought VKs career plan would have been an example of an absolute disaster - couldn't have timed it any worse

Back in 2006 QF ML were on top of the world , no competition in Aussie - can't call Virgin Low cost competition

Short time SO, era

& the reason for leaving , JQ going international ?? Very curious , think they got maybe one A330 in that year , maybe 5/6 (at most) by 2008

& that's why someone would leave QF mainline ? Well its a free country - but its interesting logic

& also flawed logic as what you anticipated simply did not occur , JQ 12 WBs versus QF 50

If you were a 76 FO at that time , likely circa 2000 joiner (+/-) , say joined at 30ish (+/-)

So now in 50s as a NB FO in USA

Consider if you had stayed at QF , you could have (if you wanted easy life) transferred to A380 SO , nudging $300K writing you own rosters

Or gone on 747/330 FO (seniority dependant obviously) , or 73 FO or 73 LHS (Perth)

If you had waited until 2010 + taken LWOP & gone on to ME3 etc etc , perhaps even DEC or accelerated to LHS . Emirates had formal program with QF back then
for a number of years . & if the ME was your cup of tea just kept extending lwop (as many did). & LWOP in 2010s with 3000 hours more time on 767 would have resulted
in much quicker journey to LHS overseas

Or just stayed with QF in whatever position

At the very least now you would have the best trips as a QF WB FO , getting paid way more & working way less than you are now

15 years "Major International Airline" well if it was CX you would have been in RHS - not a bad gig but fairly same same (then they started
amending contract). If SQ local contract & all expats got flung 2016

If ME3 , well likely at least 3 to 5 years until LHS , then the guys over there started changing everything. Bunk time not counted as flight time
& 24 hour stop after 14 hour flight (QF/BA / Americans anyone decent ) all getting at least 48 hours rest. The rosters must have been brutal and incredibly
fatiguing - just so far off "best practice" its not funny

Joining United at best mid wave of the hiring cycle , say mid 50s on a NB . How does a mid 50s chap manage to get a greencard - US citizenship whatever ?
Sure you might be able to upgrade quickly to lhs (NB only) but your rosters will be very poor for a number of years - permanent reserve. & If you want to go to WB
sure can do , but you will be on permanent reserve for years (reserve is not "shared" like QF LH) . Ever seen a youtube about United LH guys sitting in hotels (expensive) in NYC
waiting for a callout - it looks absolutely miserable . & remember if there is recession the US majors do not hesitate to furlough, this has happened twice this century & people are
often flung for years

So sure I agree with you entirely that you cannot compare flying with a major in Australia V USA. Years of permanent reserve & the threat of furlough for at least 5 years
& the company pissing your pension up against the wall Vs no compulsory redundancies for 50 years & good rosters from day 1. As you say it ain't a competition

I suspect you were the only 767 FO who resigned in 2005/2010 period & I don't think any of your fellow QF joiners would swap your career path

It was EBA 6/7 back then btw

QF could fill all ML vacancies with Americans from US Majors if they wanted & they know that

[Capt Fathom]

Well that was a bit of a ramble. Can you summarise that for us?

[Makiko]

If the "story" is true I would think this guy really timed things very poorly (& granted none of us are Nostrodamus)

QF LH is a good deal , if Australians feel it is beneath them & don't want it plenty of others will

You could fill the annual ML vacancies with Kiwis if you wanted or ADF/RNZAF pilots out of ROSO or Americans (E3 equivalent) or Brits (haven't we
just done a deal on extended work visa) or Canadians

[Capt Fathom]

What are you talking about?

[Makiko]

The career path of Verbal Kint (is that some kind of play on words )

His previous posts seemed to indicate he worked for CX , each to their own perhaps the guy just wanted to live in HK

Easy to put s*** on QF ML when in reality it would seem that he would have been way way better off staying there, the brass for
based DE CX FOs was pretty ordinary back then. Assuming that was entry point - then it would have been the joyous experience of going back to SO

Then contract change after contract change in the 2010s , finally with the COS18

[Verbal Kint]

The career path of Verbal Kint (is that some kind of play on words )

His previous posts seemed to indicate he worked for CX , each to their own perhaps the guy just wanted to live in HK

Easy to put s*** on QF ML when in reality it would seem that he would have been way way better off staying there, the brass for
based DE CX FOs was pretty ordinary back then. Assuming that was entry point - then it would have been the joyous experience of going back to SO

Then contract change after contract change in the 2010s , finally with the COS18

Well since you’re speculating:-

I joined as a COS99 DEFO. My 1st Yr pay was notably better than 7th Yr pay as a 767 FO in my final year at QF. Still based in Oz. Different story for later DEFOs on COS08. I’ve been well ahead financially at every turn than had I remained in QF ML, except for the few months on COS18 before I left HK. And I did my command on the 330/350 about the same time I could have had first available command in QF (737 in PER …… ).

At the time I left, QF had gifted EBA-D to JQ Intl. LWOP wasn’t yet an option, so the ME3 holiday wasn’t a thing.

You need to update your knowledge of conditions at the US Majors. Pensions haven’t been a thing here since the early 2000’’s except for FedEx/UPS. It’s a 401(k) now. 2nd Yr and beyond the majors all pay waaayy more than ML. I’m in my 40’s (not 50’s) and can hold any widebody FO slot (except IAH) or NB CA in any base. All much bigger $$ than widebody FO at QF. So you reckon I should have stayed? And that’s not even considering the professional aspect of working outside the sheltered world of Oz!

[Makiko]

As I said first sentence its always the same old story

Look at how well I played it & won at all corners & at all times

I wasn't aware of any DE FO HK based in 06 , there were some DEFO based in Australia - but nothing special regarding money, sure above Virgin but
way below QF mainline . HK was via SO route at that point in time

Skeptical that you claim got to LHS , timelines just aren't long enough

If you had got to 330/350 LHS why leave ? Why be asking about $100K Careflight jobs at that point in time ? (circa 2018)

If you joined QF in 1999 you would have got at 737 LHS in Perth around 2010/12. You just said that you achieved a 330/350 LHS same time you would have got
a LHS 737 at QF. This doesn't make any sense

1. The 350 wasn't even flying at that point in time (was it ?)

2. CX joiners 05/10 typically 14 years to a LHS

So joining CX in 06 that would have meant best chance LHS in 2020 (or at absolute best 2019)

These "stories" are always the same , I played it smarter than everyone else & I earned more money& I earned more money & I earned more money than anyone else

You were not earning the same money as an Aussie based CX DEFO as a 7th year QF 767 FO - didn't happen

& if you are a United NB FO you are now earning significantly less than you would have if you had stayed at QF

But its a free world & people are entitled to change employers as they see fit

You sure must have been a very youngish king air pilot (24/25) to have accomplished all since 1999 & now still be in your 40s. Almost like a prodigy of some note

The stories are always the same

Also you cannot hole NB LHS in any base - stop telling stories

You may be able to hold LHS at the Junior 2 or 3 bases (Detroit is just lovely) & on permanent reserve there . That is why the NB FOs at US majors
don't bid for LHS - its a nightmare , as similar to perpetual reserve for 5/7 years as a WB FO, hunkering down in NYC or ORD paying your own way at a hotel

Sure there is good brass available at US majors but you are playing furlough (redundancy ) roulette for the first 5 to 8 years of your career & if you get allocated WB FO
from school house , you are on permanent reserve for years (possibly can transfer to NB after freeze). So rewards there , but its a much tougher game & in any case is not available to Australian citizens. The number flying for US majors wouldn't reach double figures

[Verbal Kint]

Makiko,

Wrong again:

1. First CX DEFO’s joined Jan 07, on COS99. My 1st group certificate from CX showed 173K. My last from QF showed 156K. By my math, that’ s less.

2. Interest in Careflight was due a dying parent back home. Irrelevant to present discussion. Nice try ;)

3. Joined QF at 25. Youngish, but not unusual. The guy immediately above me took first available command on the 737 in 2017 (PER). Same time I upgraded at CX ….

4. CX got their first 350 in June 2016. Look it up. Upgrade time came down to 10.5 +/- due Airbus deliveries/777 SFO’s not wanting to fly it.

5. You clearly have no idea about upgrade times here. As of Aug 15th we have 123 unfilled NB CA slots. I can hold any of them. I think you have your airlines mixed up 🧐.

6. No idea about hunkering down at crash pads as I dont have to do it!

6. NB CA here pays upwards of 300K USD/Yr. Enlighten me what fleet/seat pays that at QF 23 years in? And I’m talking 3 Yr in here. No comparison.

[LostWanderer]

Unfortunately T&C’s in Australia have gone nowhere. The reasons why have been discussed elsewhere (lack of a strong over-arching union, small industry & therefore lack of options etc … ).

But for a simple comparison, as a 2nd year narrowbody FO here I’ll earn over 300K AUD + 17% direct retirement contribution. Not including per diems of course 😄.

Thats really great and all but UA/DL/AA are also very, very quick to pull the furlough trigger and take major contract concessions when the economy hits a speed bump. You could very easily end up unemployed for years as has happened many times in the past to a lot of pilots at the big 3 in the US. Apart from the COVID fiasco, QF I would argue is a more stable career prospect than United or the others in an unstable economic world.

As with most things in life though, your mileage may vary!

[havick]

Thats really great and all but UA/DL/AA are also very, very quick to pull the furlough trigger and take major contract concessions when the economy hits a speed bump. You could very easily end up unemployed for years as has happened many times in the past to a lot of pilots at the big 3 in the US. Apart from the COVID fiasco, QF I would argue is a more stable career prospect than United or the others in an unstable economic world.

As with most things in life though, your mileage may vary!

How do you figure when the most senior QF pilots were harmed the worst out of the entire group of late? Pretty quick to dismiss that as a simple one off.

[Ollie Onion]

I think Qantas has changed the conversation with what happened during Covid, now they have used the provision to stand pilots down on no pay I would not be surprised to see it used again.

[dr dre]

I think Qantas has changed the conversation with what happened during Covid, now they have used the provision to stand pilots down on no pay I would not be surprised to see it used again.

It would only be used in such a drastic circumstance as a pandemic related border closure, war, mass industrial action etc. Not solely because of an economic slowdown or business restructuring. The stand down provisions for A380 pilots were lifted when international borders began to be re-opened even though not all 380 pilots were usefully employed at that point.

I don’t think QF have made a pilot compulsory redundant since the early 70s, can’t say the same of the US carriers.

The positives and negatives of US carriers vs QF have been well spoken about on this thread - at the end of the day most Australians would want to reside in their home country and be closer to family and friends, so overall the number of Australians who choose a career in the US would be a minority.

[Ollie Onion]

You have more faith in Qantas Management than I do.

[havick]

At least in the US when furloughs happen, everyone knows what they signed up for. It’s bottom up.

Covid proves QF doesn’t give a s*it at all about those who have the most time in with the company. To be fair corporate culture in the US doesn’t either, but at least the contracts force management to follow the seniority list.

[Makiko]

Havick the point is that furlough (compulsory redundancy with right of recall) in QF just haven't occurred for 50 years

Whereas in the USA for the first 15 years of this century , the US majors had 1000s on the street

If same had occurred in Australia , you get a very significant redundancy payment - up to two years wages & first right of recall

A lot of the Tiger/Virgin(330/777/Vanz) guys got a full years salary when made redundant when Covid hit , now back on property with seniority intact

With stand downs at Qantas all treated equally. Though there was a voluntary redundancy (aimed at older pilots) extra 9 months pay that was available

Couple of hundred took it & many likely regret it as international bounced back way quicker than most anticipated - the point is that it was voluntary

Australian pilots like to talk about US contracts when things are going well there, but they remain very quiet when 20 or 30% + of a pilot body is furloughed (with no
Australian redundancy type payment). Or when contracts are cut significantly when US major enters chapter 11

Why oh why do Australian pilots like to obsess on T & Cs at US Majors when these jobs are not available to Australian citizens, despite what various fantasists might claim

[Jester64]

Why oh why do Australian pilots like to obsess on T & Cs at US Majors when these jobs are not available to Australian citizens, despite what various fantasists might claim

Well technically they are available should an Aussie citizen go down the green card / FAA route. A former colleague of made the financial investment via a lawyer and now has the green card. Took him about 12 months and < 20K USD. He previously had the FAA but no former employment or family ties in the US. He made the investment as others who had recently done the same were successfully recruited by US majors. Well played I’d say, taking advantage of the window of opportunity that’s currently open in the US, given time to command at a major is < 2 years…(have another mate who joined Delta 18 months ago as an A220 FO and now is on a 757/767 command course.) Couldn’t the hundreds of Aussies who went to Atlas potentially do the same?

[Lapon]

A lot of the Tiger/Virgin(330/777/Vanz) guys got a full years salary when made redundant when Covid hit

Does VA really have (or did have?) 12 month redundancy entitlements? or is that figure inclusive of outstanding annual leave, long service leave etc etc?

I don't work in the US, but I'd be inclined to suggest to any young buck go there asap if life permits, and don't let the possibility of furlough put you off.

Stay in oz and your forever carrier might well go bust anyway, and if it doesn't it will be death by a thousand cuts with the introduction of b scales, c scales, and continual outsourcing.

[Jimsaviation]

A lot of the Tiger/Virgin(330/777/Vanz) guys got a full years salary when made redundant when Covid hit , now back on property with seniority intact

Totally false, none of the EBAs had 52 weeks severance pay. Those EBAs max out at about 12 weeks; so a fair bit less I would say.

[Makiko]

Truly Fantasyland stuff

Its always the same old story, played every angle to perfection & made every post a winner or " I know a bloke who did this ......

There is no mechanism for an Aussie Pilot to obtain a greencard (aside lottery, partner) no matter who your gold seal "attorney" is - it doesn't happen. Lottery is virtually nil probability & partner . Well lets look at this way if in Aussie it takes typically 4 years to get PR via partner , it won't be any less in the USA. Like how you added he joined the "best" major & in a short 18 months , not just a NB command but a WB command . Holy crikey Batman . Just fantasyland

Like you Jester I would also say "well played" if the event of your fast track Delta WB LHS & others you mention - had actually occurred. But the event didn't occur

Lapon well the only B scale is ML Airbus SO ,not hearing any plans for that to be expanded. Well it is possible that the QF group goes broke but that has never happened over a long time . Whereas virtually all US pax carriers have been in Chapter 11 this century & that is when your contract can be reduced by very large % & the large furloughs etc

But I think the greatest fantasist would be VT , got an answer for everything claiming every post a winner . Claiming to have joined QF circa 99 as 25 yo & former RFDS King Air pilot or something - dream run in GA to be sure. Then moves to CX DEFO in 2006 , Aussie based & out earns all his QF contempories - winner winner chicken dinner. We can all remember that rush QF 7 year pilots leaving to join CX DEFO to take that 40% paycut - it was the quick & the dead. Then achieves LHS at CX after 10.5 years on the Airbus - somehow leapfrogging the 14 year requirement - well played Sir. Stressing how he " out earned" all of his QF contemps every year. Also boasted that he beat his QF contempts to LHS , stating the earliest they got it was 2017- little problem with this - just called reality as 99 joiners could have got a 737 lhs by 2010/12. Said he was at major int airline for 15 years & now amended that to left in 2017, so we are at 11 years now. & Now this magic man has obtained a green card , is flying the friendly skies at United & just so boastful about his earnings. I don't accept he worked for any of these airlines

Its always the same old story

Think you might find they had to pay the statutory minimum which is two weeks for every year despite what was written in the EBA , which I am pretty sure was above 12 weeks anyway. All other outstandings sick leave , vacation, long service etc etc. The payments were on the generous side to get the "deal done" . I certainly knew Tiger guys with about 8/9 years that were getting 12 months pay, VANZ guys with less than 3 years picking up 70K . Pretty good deals across the board
Fair bit of whining by the 737 guys about for example the 330 pilots getting fat redundancy payments then returning etc .
VARA 78.2(b) 3 weeks for every year , max of 52 weeks. This was likely used as the benchmark as it wouldn't have been a good look different Virgin entities different pilot redundancies

[AQIS Boigu]

Makiko,

I can assure you that CX pilots who joined in 2006 and early 2007 got their commands on the Airbus in 10.5 years.

It then slowed down to 14-15 years with COVID, and now returned to as low as 8 years.
A lot of cadets and also direct entry pilots who were not part of the “core team” during C19 do not currently meet the TT requirement for a command course and are getting bypassed.

Lots of 777 FOs were making more than an Airbus Captain back then with double the time off, decided not to take it either.

These are the facts and stop arguing unless you know someone senior enough in CX and who was employed back then.

There was never a 14 year requirement, not sure where you got that BS from.

PM me if you want to discuss further and let it go please.

[Jimsaviation]

Truly Fantasyland stuff

Its always the same old story, played every angle to perfection & made every post a winner or " I know a bloke who did this ......

There is no mechanism for an Aussie Pilot to obtain a greencard (aside lottery, partner) no matter who your gold seal "attorney" is - it doesn't happen. Lottery is virtually nil probability & partner . Well lets look at this way if in Aussie it takes typically 4 years to get PR via partner , it won't be any less in the USA. Like how you added he joined the "best" major & in a short 18 months , not just a NB command but a WB command . Holy crikey Batman . Just fantasyland

Like you Jester I would also say "well played" if the event of your fast track Delta WB LHS & others you mention - had actually occurred. But the event didn't occur

Lapon well the only B scale is ML Airbus SO ,not hearing any plans for that to be expanded. Well it is possible that the QF group goes broke but that has never happened over a long time . Whereas virtually all US pax carriers have been in Chapter 11 this century & that is when your contract can be reduced by very large % & the large furloughs etc

But I think the greatest fantasist would be VT , got an answer for everything claiming every post a winner . Claiming to have joined QF circa 99 as 25 yo & former RFDS King Air pilot or something - dream run in GA to be sure. Then moves to CX DEFO in 2006 , Aussie based & out earns all his QF contempories - winner winner chicken dinner. We can all remember that rush QF 7 year pilots leaving to join CX DEFO to take that 40% paycut - it was the quick & the dead. Then achieves LHS at CX after 10.5 years on the Airbus - somehow leapfrogging the 14 year requirement - well played Sir. Stressing how he " out earned" all of his QF contemps every year. Also boasted that he beat his QF contempts to LHS , stating the earliest they got it was 2017- little problem with this - just called reality as 99 joiners could have got a 737 lhs by 2010/12. Said he was at major int airline for 15 years & now amended that to left in 2017, so we are at 11 years now. & Now this magic man has obtained a green card , is flying the friendly skies at United & just so boastful about his earnings. I don't accept he worked for any of these airlines

Its always the same old story

Think you might find they had to pay the statutory minimum which is two weeks for every year despite what was written in the EBA , which I am pretty sure was above 12 weeks anyway. All other outstandings sick leave , vacation, long service etc etc. The payments were on the generous side to get the "deal done" . I certainly knew Tiger guys with about 8/9 years that were getting 12 months pay, VANZ guys with less than 3 years picking up 70K . Pretty good deals across the board
Fair bit of whining by the 737 guys about for example the 330 pilots getting fat redundancy payments then returning etc .
VARA 78.2(b) 3 weeks for every year , max of 52 weeks. This was likely used as the benchmark as it wouldn't have been a good look different Virgin entities different pilot redundancies

Dude you sound like a lunatic. CX commands did go down to about 11 years on the Airbus. I had friends upgrade there in that timeframe. There’s never been a 14 year requirement at CX.

Tigerair/VA payouts were topped up by annual leave, long service leave and payment in lieu of notice period which are all separate to a severance entitlement. Tigerair redundancy was covered by the NES which is definitely not 12 months. If some people got 12 months pay then they had a lot of annual leave. It wasn’t because the VA management buffoons were trying to be nice or have a special redundancy clause. VARA was never made redundant and they certainly didn’t use that as a bench mark. You have no idea what you are talking about!

[Makiko]

The VARA ATR pilots were made redundant

[SandyPalms]

In 2025 the number of training slots in in excess of 900. That's in Qantas, not Cathay.
For those that those number don't satisfy, you can go to the states if you can, go to cathay if you like. If you're ex Tiger, condolences.
Most Australians however, want to work for Qantas. Some don't and that's fine, so if thats you, get out of the Qantas recruitment thread.
This thread is about Qantas. Nobody cares about Verbal, Veruka or whoever he is thiis week's career, it's of no consequence to anybody but him. Please get this tread back on track.

[Poto]

900? How do you have 1/3 of your Pilots in training and be able to crew the Schedule?

[SandyPalms]

900? How do you have 1/3 of your Pilots in training and be able to crew the Schedule?

they are not all in training for the entire 12 months. That’s also includes initial SO courses. Looks like a significant challenge for Qantas Flight Training, but I pretty good challenge to have.

[AQIS Boigu]

Good call…

When will ML start interviewing externals again?

[Jester64]

Truly Fantasyland stuff

Its always the same old story, played every angle to perfection & made every post a winner or " I know a bloke who did this ......

There is no mechanism for an Aussie Pilot to obtain a greencard (aside lottery, partner) no matter who your gold seal "attorney" is - it doesn't happen. Lottery is virtually nil probability & partner . Well lets look at this way if in Aussie it takes typically 4 years to get PR via partner , it won't be any less in the USA. Like how you added he joined the "best" major & in a short 18 months , not just a NB command but a WB command . Holy crikey Batman . Just fantasyland

Like you Jester I would also say "well played" if the event of your fast track Delta WB LHS & others you mention - had actually occurred. But the event didn't occur



Just spoke with both individuals…

The one with the green card applied via what’s called an EB-2 NIW. It’s a a completely unrestricted, skill-based green card. I’ve even seen it with my own eyes.

As for the other bloke, the story gets even better…joined mid-last year and already on a command course for the 757 and currently doing line training. He will be flying both types eventually as mixed fleet.

[Ranger290]

I came over on an e3 2 years ago. Me and my partner are getting married shortly and I know several others that have done the same recently with the entire process to green card taking 3 - 4 months after application. 4 years? Are you just making these figures up out of nowhere.

[VHOED191006]

Truly Fantasyland stuff

Its always the same old story, played every angle to perfection & made every post a winner or " I know a bloke who did this ......

There is no mechanism for an Aussie Pilot to obtain a greencard (aside lottery, partner) no matter who your gold seal "attorney" is - it doesn't happen. Lottery is virtually nil probability & partner . Well lets look at this way if in Aussie it takes typically 4 years to get PR via partner , it won't be any less in the USA. Like how you added he joined the "best" major & in a short 18 months , not just a NB command but a WB command . Holy crikey Batman . Just fantasyland

Like you Jester I would also say "well played" if the event of your fast track Delta WB LHS & others you mention - had actually occurred. But the event didn't occur

Lapon well the only B scale is ML Airbus SO ,not hearing any plans for that to be expanded. Well it is possible that the QF group goes broke but that has never happened over a long time . Whereas virtually all US pax carriers have been in Chapter 11 this century & that is when your contract can be reduced by very large % & the large furloughs etc

But I think the greatest fantasist would be VT , got an answer for everything claiming every post a winner . Claiming to have joined QF circa 99 as 25 yo & former RFDS King Air pilot or something - dream run in GA to be sure. Then moves to CX DEFO in 2006 , Aussie based & out earns all his QF contempories - winner winner chicken dinner. We can all remember that rush QF 7 year pilots leaving to join CX DEFO to take that 40% paycut - it was the quick & the dead. Then achieves LHS at CX after 10.5 years on the Airbus - somehow leapfrogging the 14 year requirement - well played Sir. Stressing how he " out earned" all of his QF contemps every year. Also boasted that he beat his QF contempts to LHS , stating the earliest they got it was 2017- little problem with this - just called reality as 99 joiners could have got a 737 lhs by 2010/12. Said he was at major int airline for 15 years & now amended that to left in 2017, so we are at 11 years now. & Now this magic man has obtained a green card , is flying the friendly skies at United & just so boastful about his earnings. I don't accept he worked for any of these airlines

Its always the same old story

Think you might find they had to pay the statutory minimum which is two weeks for every year despite what was written in the EBA , which I am pretty sure was above 12 weeks anyway. All other outstandings sick leave , vacation, long service etc etc. The payments were on the generous side to get the "deal done" . I certainly knew Tiger guys with about 8/9 years that were getting 12 months pay, VANZ guys with less than 3 years picking up 70K . Pretty good deals across the board
Fair bit of whining by the 737 guys about for example the 330 pilots getting fat redundancy payments then returning etc .
VARA 78.2(b) 3 weeks for every year , max of 52 weeks. This was likely used as the benchmark as it wouldn't have been a good look different Virgin entities different pilot redundancies
Alan!!!!!! How are you going? How's the penthouse renovations going? Must have cost you quite a bit hey?! Luck of the Irish that it's next door that you're getting done haha.

[Verbal Kint]

Yeah sorry to hijack your thread, Sandy. I won’t write anything more after this.

But Makiko, it’s kinda fun being gaslighted with hearsay & factual inaccuracies by an SO who probably hadn’t learnt to fly when half these events occurred.

I don’t give a toss whether you believe any of it or not. It’s worked out well for me, & I’m glad you were able to get to QF ML after losing your job at Virgin. I’d go easy on advocating a B-Scale for A350 S/O’s though …..

So enjoy your ‘3 percent with offsets’, & be sure to pull the ladder up on junior pilots/future hires …. Just like a good AIPA member. Hooroo!

[belongamick]

The VARA ATR pilots were made redundant
There were no VARA ATR pilots to make redundant. The entire operation was moved under the VAA AOC years ago and when they were let go they were not under the Skywest / VARA EBA, they were under a VAA ATR EBA. But yes, they were all made redundant.

[Ladloy]

Yeah sorry to hijack your thread, Sandy. I won’t write anything more after this.

But Makiko, it’s kinda fun being gaslighted with hearsay & factual inaccuracies by an SO who probably hadn’t learnt to fly when half these events occurred.

I don’t give a toss whether you believe any of it or not. It’s worked out well for me, & I’m glad you were able to get to QF ML after losing your job at Virgin. I’d go easy on advocating a B-Scale for A350 S/O’s though …..

So enjoy your ‘3 percent with offsets’, & be sure to pull the ladder up on junior pilots/future hires …. Just like a good AIPA member. Hooroo!
Imagine a world where pilots didn't constantly knife each other in the back.

[Fonz121]

787-10s would be a great 330 replacement. Hopefully it’s enough to actually replace the 330 (and more). I won’t hold my breath though.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/qantas-airways-nears-new-boeing-787-widebody-order-2023-08-21/

[dragon man]

Word is it’s another 14 and they are 330 replacements and I’m sure they won’t be at the launch price that Dickson signed up for and Joyce cancelled most of .

[Ollie Onion]

WOW, what an astute businessman! Cancel all your options for short term paper gains to help your own bonuses and balance sheet and then reorder them at much higher prices and leave the mess to a new CEO after you have taken $120 million out of the company. On some level I admire the audacity of such a move, especially considering he leaves with the Board thanking little Al for his contribution.

[dragon man]

I think you will find that after this years AGM and bonuses it will be close to $180 million.

From todays Daily Telegraph

“Mr Joyce will also benefit from the turnaround with him expected to receive 698,000 shares worth almost $4.5 million. He deferred bonuses during Covid that will kick in towards a $24 million payday at the end of his 15 year stint at the airline at the end of the year.”

[Makiko]

People come to this thread for QF group stuff not to hear people claiming to be working for US Majors blowing their own horn (its quite unedifying )

But don't get sucked into the tall stories about obtaining an EB2 NIW to work for US Major . The criteria is advanced degree ie: PhD (US immi says "customarily") or "exceptional ability" & the NIW (proposed endeavour has to have substantial merit & be of national importance) . So Aussie pilots won't make advanced degree (only know one PhD airline) , but may well make "exceptional ability" - the minimum 3 criteria (& the weakest) of the 7 criteria. So marginal pass there , but you will have buckleys of meeting NIW criteria , read US Govt websites , even some of the law firms (Scott Legal) fess up to this & state just wanting to come work for Major/Cargo is a weak case. Some case law (appeal around from 2021) outlines it clearly . Where is salesy law firms try to bait people is by stating you meet "exceptional ability" criteria (they neglect to mention very marginally) , but as you guessed mums the word on getting over the NIW criteria - as the good Attorneys know you don't meet criteria. Yes you will get a lot o braggarts chiming in that they ,or "their mate" got & "they have seen it with own eyes" - but what you won't get is a name , verification ,linked profile of anyone who has done it . Simple reason - it doesn't happen.

Is recruitment to ML going to take place for internals in January 2024 ? Externals month or two after that ?

[On Guard]

People come to this thread for QF group stuff not to hear people claiming to be working for US Majors blowing their own horn (its quite unedifying )

But don't get sucked into the tall stories about obtaining an EB2 NIW to work for US Major . The criteria is advanced degree ie: PhD (US immi says "customarily") or "exceptional ability" & the NIW (proposed endeavour has to have substantial merit & be of national importance) . So Aussie pilots won't make advanced degree (only know one PhD airline) , but may well make "exceptional ability" - the minimum 3 criteria (& the weakest) of the 7 criteria. So marginal pass there , but you will have buckleys of meeting NIW criteria , read US Govt websites , even some of the law firms (Scott Legal) fess up to this & state just wanting to come work for Major/Cargo is a weak case. Some case law (appeal around from 2021) outlines it clearly . Where is salesy law firms try to bait people is by stating you meet "exceptional ability" criteria (they neglect to mention very marginally) , but as you guessed mums the word on getting over the NIW criteria - as the good Attorneys know you don't meet criteria. Yes you will get a lot o braggarts chiming in that they ,or "their mate" got & "they have seen it with own eyes" - but what you won't get is a name , verification ,linked profile of anyone who has done it . Simple reason - it doesn't happen.

Is recruitment to ML going to take place for internals in January 2024 ? Externals month or two after that ?

This is half correct. The EB2 is a hard visa, I do know guys who got it but you need to show national benefit. One got it as a safety specialist, ie contributes to the whole of aviation. Trainers also stand a better chance.

But agreed, let’s get back to the QF topic. I know firsthand external opens again in 2024. Assume early 24.

[Makiko]

Its not national benefit , its of national importance , well beyond a single employer , impacting significant portion of aviation industry . USImmi says proposed employment plan "substantial merit & national importance". Your garden variety TRIs/TRE/Training/Fleet managers at Virgin/QF would have zero possibility. You would really need quals/experience/expertise out of the box

The visa is for the Americans to hover up leading PhDs scientists/engineers with proven research outputs in areas that are important to US national interest

It would be enlightening to see one single solitary Australian on linked or name or something that actual works for a US Major , but we won't because there aren't any as they can't get the visa

Standby for the Walter Mitty's "I say , I say , I say ,My mate , My mate , My mate......." Start a thread for the US Major fiction

External hiring has followed internal hiring over last few years & internals have been told hiring in January 2024

[Giuseppe Giovanni]

With respect Makiko, there's an Immigration Lawyer here in Hong Kong who pioneered the application of EB2 NIW Visa for Pilots.

He's achieved close to 150 EB2 NIW Visas. Most are Pilots. The process can take anywhere from 3-4 to 12 months, with a high success rate. And he's done so with many Nationalities.

This is not hearsay. It's a fact.

That's enough from me and hopefully, the discussion has been put to bed and we can all return to the topic at hand.

[Ranger290]

Not to mention there is a regional and LCC here that will sponsor you for a green card.
Anyone here know when mainline EBA is up for negotiations ?

[soseg]

Not to mention there is a regional and LCC here that will sponsor you for a green card.
Anyone here know when mainline EBA is up for negotiations ?

SH expires 31st of this month.

LH expires 30 June 2024

[havick]

Its not national benefit , its of national importance , well beyond a single employer , impacting significant portion of aviation industry . USImmi says proposed employment plan "substantial merit & national importance". Your garden variety TRIs/TRE/Training/Fleet managers at Virgin/QF would have zero possibility. You would really need quals/experience/expertise out of the box

The visa is for the Americans to hover up leading PhDs scientists/engineers with proven research outputs in areas that are important to US national interest

It would be enlightening to see one single solitary Australian on linked or name or something that actual works for a US Major , but we won't because there aren't any as they can't get the visa

Standby for the Walter Mitty's "I say , I say , I say ,My mate , My mate , My mate......." Start a thread for the US Major fiction

External hiring has followed internal hiring over last few years & internals have been told hiring in January 2024

Well for one dropyoursocks on here is an Aussie working for a major.

There’s another Bankrupt84 starting with AA in a couple of month through the flow through. He won the lottery.

There’s another that’s at delta that I’m friends with that I knew from back back in 2008 that did the EB2-NIW thing.

I’ve run into at least 2 others that are at Commutair that have been sponsored for green cards, and it’s only a matter of time once they have those they’ll move on to a legacy carrier.

[Verbal Kint]

18 Aussies at United that I know of. And a whole bunch flowing from the regionals or coming from Frontier, Spirit etc …

[Ranger290]

Makiko is trolling at this point. Well here’s to hoping the SH EBA can set the standard for all subsidiaries below

[Makiko]

Guiseppe if you wish to believe what HLG say well that is your business, it looks like a very "interesting" website to say the least. Really quite boastful & groovy French sounding names , are any of them registered to practice law in any part of the USA

Their tactic of refiling (rather than appealing) a rejected application (as the appeals tribunal , which is independent) will just back the immi officer . To me just seems child like in its lack of sophistication

Another colourful Florida based attorney is claiming 100% strike rate & apparently he has also flown an F16

I would just suggest you look at some of what seem to be some of the more measured appraisals of the EB2 NIW system by say (Scott lawyers or Santos Lloyd) & they are still trying to sell a service. Or the sobering US Govt Website - USCIC

Some of the statements the lawyers make are
" It could be an uphill battle to convince an immigration officer working at USCIS that employment as a commercial pilot for an existing airline has both substantial merit and national importance" & talk about the Dhanser standards

The rest of it all sounds like a bitcoin conference, giddy excitement & people such as Rishworth issuing decrees that its a done deal

If you read how USCIS define (& the tests they apply) with regard what "substantial merit & national importance" are , airline pilots just aren't going to meet threshold

Winning lottery - its a 3% chance for Australians isn't it , commutair was E3 - they weren't sponsoring Australians for greencards

Nobody is saying that there aren't excellent opportunities for Australians to fly in US, but it will be on an two year renewable E-3 atm & not at the majors

People can claim dozens or 50 plus Australians at US majors , but we all know that just isn't true. Whereas a quick internet search will reveal Australians at the regionals, cargo, ulcc . Why can't we find these "phantoms"? - perhaps because they don't exist

But its a wonderful yarn

R290: Not trolling at all, I simply have a different opinion to you & don't have to change it simply because people state "This is how it is". Without producing any evidence

The trollers are those who falsely claim to be working for said Majors & seem to want to come on a Qantas thread , boasting about how much money they are making

[Jester64]

People come to this thread for QF group stuff not to hear people claiming to be working for US Majors blowing their own horn (its quite unedifying )


Agreed, but people also come to this thread to learn. You made a statement saying that no Aussie citizen can get a green card. I replied saying that’s not entirely true, and I made this statement not to create an argument with you, but to highlight the fact that indeed there is a pathway to the US for an Aussie pilot who is appropriately qualified and willing to go through the process. I know this because I personally know of a pilot who did it, not to mention the hundreds of EB2 NIW green cards that have been granted to pilots of from many nationalities taking advantage of the window of opportunity that’s currently available in the US.

Yes you will get a lot o braggarts chiming in that they ,or "their mate" got & "they have seen it with own eyes" - but what you won't get is a name , verification ,linked profile of anyone who has done it . Simple reason - it doesn't happen.

Seriously? Discussion ends here for me. Enjoy your two stripes mate.

[DropYourSocks]

Guiseppe if you wish to believe what HLG say well that is your business, it looks like a very "interesting" website to say the least. Really quite boastful & groovy French sounding names , are any of them registered to practice law in any part of the USA

Their tactic of refiling (rather than appealing) a rejected application (as the appeals tribunal , which is independent) will just back the immi officer . To me just seems child like in its lack of sophistication

Another colourful Florida based attorney is claiming 100% strike rate & apparently he has also flown an F16

I would just suggest you look at some of what seem to be some of the more measured appraisals of the EB2 NIW system by say (Scott lawyers or Santos Lloyd) & they are still trying to sell a service. Or the sobering US Govt Website - USCIC

Some of the statements the lawyers make are
" It could be an uphill battle to convince an immigration officer working at USCIS that employment as a commercial pilot for an existing airline has both substantial merit and national importance" & talk about the Dhanser standards

The rest of it all sounds like a bitcoin conference, giddy excitement & people such as Rishworth issuing decrees that its a done deal

If you read how USCIS define (& the tests they apply) with regard what "substantial merit & national importance" are , airline pilots just aren't going to meet threshold

Winning lottery - its a 3% chance for Australians isn't it , commutair was E3 - they weren't sponsoring Australians for greencards

Nobody is saying that there aren't excellent opportunities for Australians to fly in US, but it will be on an two year renewable E-3 atm & not at the majors

People can claim dozens or 50 plus Australians at US majors , but we all know that just isn't true. Whereas a quick internet search will reveal Australians at the regionals, cargo, ulcc . Why can't we find these "phantoms"? - perhaps because they don't exist

But its a wonderful yarn

R290: Not trolling at all, I simply have a different opinion to you & don't have to change it simply because people state "This is how it is". Without producing any evidence

The trollers are those who falsely claim to be working for said Majors & seem to want to come on a Qantas thread , boasting about how much money they are making

You sir, are either a fool, or served by keeping local Aussie pilot conditions in the dirt. Commuteair are literally sponsoring captain qualified Aussies on EB3s. The first recipient of this green card flows to UA at the end of this month. There are now dozens of Aussies flying left seat at commuteair all waiting for their green cards to come through.

UA has at least 18 Aussies that we've found, the most senior of which started in the 90s, the most junior of which has been on property mere months. More are coming.

The point of this is not to be a braggart, as you accuse. We post this on the forum of the premier Australian airline, the pinnacle of the Australian pilot's career, to show that you are worth more than management says you are. We are that proof that you are worth more. The onus is on you to go and get it. And to the Aussies that are discontent with the local offerings, we're proof that Aussies can seek their fortune in the land of the free.

[Swept-Wing]

Makiko you’re drunk, go home.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Word is it’s another 14 and they are 330 replacements and I’m sure they won’t be at the launch price that Dickson signed up for and Joyce cancelled most of .

Well todays order announcement is good news - don’t care what they paid for them!

[stillcallozhome]

Well todays order announcement is good news - don’t care what they paid for them!

24 orders, 26 330s to be retired. Doesn’t sound good to me but I’m sure Qantas will say how good it is for promotions like Finnair wet leases.

[cloudsurfng]

24, with purchase options for more….plus the newer 330’s will still be around a while yet, hence the refurb.

[Chad Gates]

I don’t think so (26-24 stuff) Seems like this is the start, but there will be more. It says so in the report.

[soseg]

No extra A321XLRs ordered as promised. They said there would be narrow body orders as they want 40+ 321s. There's 75 737s to be replaced over a decade...

24 Wide Bodies but 28x A330s and 12x A380s to go over a decade including the four frames lost since covid.

Very disappointing.

[stillcallozhome]

24, with purchase options for more….plus the newer 330’s will still be around a while yet, hence the refurb.

Ah, Options. I forgot how Qantas always exercise those options. :oh:

Apologies, history has made me a cynic when it comes to Qantas and their options.

[MickG0105]

Anyone counting the A350-1000 order for Sunrise in their numbers?

[kcboy]

What are they going to do with Jetstars 787’s lol

[ScepticalOptomist]

No extra A321XLRs ordered as promised. They said there would be narrow body orders as they want 40+ 321s. There's 75 737s to be replaced over a decade...

24 Wide Bodies but 28x A330s and 12x A380s to go over a decade including the four frames lost since covid.

Very disappointing.

I get it - I’m also cynical after the last decade or so of promises, but am remaining cautiously optimistic on this one. Times may be slowly changing. We will see..

[ScepticalOptomist]

24 orders, 26 330s to be retired. Doesn’t sound good to me but I’m sure Qantas will say how good it is for promotions like Finnair wet leases.

Haha, this sounds like the first tranch of announcements. More to come, slowly, so as not to spook the market.
For the first time in a long time I’m seeing a positive outlook for mainline, despite the naysayers and negative Nannie’s here.

The Finnair wet lease is hard to swallow but part of a larger deal that will be of benefit to mainline - eventually. Unfortunately, patience is required and we’re all very cynical after the last couple of decades.

[cLeArIcE]

What are they going to do with Jetstars 787’s lol
They make money and no one would ever buy those 787s. Why do anything with them right now?

[kcboy]

They make money and no one would ever buy those 787s. Why do anything with them right now?

Yeah that’s true I guess. I thought that they might of purchased a few more of them to build the network up a bit but evidently not.

[cloudsurfng]

Ah, Options. I forgot how Qantas always exercise those options. :oh:

Apologies, history has made me a cynic when it comes to Qantas and their options.


im right there with you buddy. Just pointing out the facts. It’s easy to be completely negative, but it makes life depressing. Finally some orders for mainline, perhaps these are the ‘green shoots’ we’ve been waiting 20 years for.

[dr dre]

Haha, this sounds like the first tranch of announcements. More to come, slowly, so as not to spook the market.
For the first time in a long time I’m seeing a positive outlook for mainline, despite the naysayers and negative Nannie’s here.



Yeah I would say that with new CEOs comments about long term renewal costs they won’t be announcing big spending plans all at once. They can probably make an announcement on the next tranche of A321XLRs sometime within the next 12 months and still have them arrive from 2027 onwards in line with the 737-800 replacement program.

[cLeArIcE]

So is our performance bonus this year all of $500 travel credit. ? Seriously? Surely not.

[stillcallozhome]

im right there with you buddy. Just pointing out the facts. It’s easy to be completely negative, but it makes life depressing. Finally some orders for mainline, perhaps these are the ‘green shoots’ we’ve been waiting 20 years for.

You’re right. Just so hard to be positive after Alan’s tenure. Another $500m to be “invested” in share buybacks next month on top of the $1b he made (and the board approved) this past financial year is disheartening. I think most people would like to see that reinvested in planes, infrastructure, and it’s people instead.

I will try and look at it in a more positive way though. There are some good signs. As you say, life’s too depressing otherwise.

[Ollie Onion]

What else would you expect?

[soseg]

Two weeks ago flight ops said they expect to hire 1800-2000 pilots over the next decade. 700 retirements.

Now it's been revised to 1500

Sounds to me like the long term plans to expand aren't going to be as good as people had hoped.

[Beer Baron]

From what I’ve been told there will be 8 A330’s and all 10 A380’s still flying until 2023. So these orders are on top of those, plus the 12 Sunrise aircraft, plus the 14 787’s we already have.
So this order definitely represents growth.

[cloudsurfng]

Two weeks ago flight ops said they expect to hire 1800-2000 pilots over the next decade. 700 retirements.

Now it's been revised to 1500

Sounds to me like the long term plans to expand aren't going to be as good as people had hoped.

’at least’ 1500…..

[dr dre]

Two weeks ago flight ops said they expect to hire 1800-2000 pilots over the next decade. 700 retirements.

Now it's been revised to 1500

Sounds to me like the long term plans to expand aren't going to be as good as people had hoped.

There was 1000 new recruits planned from 2022-2027. This is to cover about 300 retirements, about 400 pilots to the A350 (expansion) and the remainder to cover extra flying or vacancies. Beyond that there’s about 550 retirements in the 5 years from 2027-2032.

So all things considered that’s roughly what I would’ve expected from a 10 year plan.

For instance there’s about 700 Captains in mainline now, after the extra flying is in the network (which is about 2027 I believe) there’ll be 900, and then all the extra vacancies which will be created by retirements which start up again from 2025 onwards.

[Callsign Please]

So is our performance bonus this year all of $500 travel credit. ? Seriously? Surely not.
Joe Public won’t know or care, but AFR is sprouting the line of “another $340 million of bonuses and share payments, on top of retention bonuses last year”.

They pull this **** every time. Selective words on a slide under a pic of smiling crew and hey presto last year’s pre-tax EBA-contingent bonus is new again. No chance anyone will ask about it at the happy clap session/town hall.

[RealSatoshi]

They pull this **** every time. Selective words on a slide under a pic of smiling crew and hey presto last year’s pre-tax EBA-contingent bonus is new again. No chance anyone will ask about it at the happy clap session/town hall.

That's it...the same bonus(es) have been gifted about FOUR times already :}

[nvfr]

So is our performance bonus this year all of $500 travel credit. ? Seriously? Surely not.


finally someone said it. That’s a flipping disgrace. Stand downs to help the company and this crap. It’s outrageous.

[Australopithecus]

That had better not be the case, although I don’t know what can be done when my “can-do” selector is already at zero.

[aussieflyboy]

Can someone tell this mob to match ‘bonuses’ to income (progressive bonus system).

$6,000 means a lot more to a MAM or Altara cabin crew member on $40k and paying 15% tax a year then it does to a Pilot on $250k paying 45%.

[nvfr]

Can someone tell this mob to match ‘bonuses’ to income (progressive bonus system).

$6,000 means a lot more to a MAM or Altara cabin crew member on $40k and paying 15% tax a year then it does to a Pilot on $250k paying 45%.


we are not getting a 6k bonus. We are getting $500 staff travel credits and a recycled bonus we earned over 2 years ago. We have bent over backwards for this piece of s@#$ company and this seems to be one last dildo in the a*$ from Joyce. Honestly this mob is dispicable.

[Makiko]

The fleet of WBs (or no of WB seats) has stayed pretty static for 25 years & that has been disappointing. But a number of new routes & that is something & I guess you got to start somewhere & it seems some purchase rights

With any luck QF will move away from the JIT approach to flight crew hiring & have an surplus of 15/20%

If the numbers remain as planned & as is occurring now (& since 2016 , excluding Covid) it is already the largest ongoing recruitment of Qantas ML ever (600 or so since late 2016) & at least 1500 next decade

What people want to know is how to best position themselves for an SO job. With 140 of the Qlink (dash) pilots on the HF I would have thought that is pretty obvious

[Makiko]

The fleet of WBs (or no of WB seats) has stayed pretty static for 25 years & that has been disappointing. But a number of new routes & that is something & I guess you got to start somewhere & it seems some purchase rights

With any luck QF will move away from the JIT approach to flight crew hiring & have an surplus of 15/20%

If the numbers remain as planned & as is occurring now (& since 2016 , excluding Covid) it is already the largest ongoing recruitment of Qantas ML ever (600 or so since late 2016) & at least 1500 next decade

What people want to know is how to best position themselves for an SO job. With 140 of the Qlink (dash) pilots on the HF I would have thought that is pretty obvious

(DYS : that is useful information for people who want to take the USA route , but it doesn't seem CAir have been doing that for very long - are they still. Much better than believing in 4% chances at lotteries or that a pilot will get a NIW. Its good that so many Australians have enjoyed success in the USA, but lets face facts many apply to QF ML, not aware of any QF ML resigning to go across Pacific)

[Deano969]

Can someone tell this mob to match ‘bonuses’ to income (progressive bonus system).

$6,000 means a lot more to a MAM or Altara cabin crew member on $40k and paying 15% tax a year then it does to a Pilot on $250k paying 45%.
Its actually 19% not 15%
If you are unhappy paying 45% tax on a bonus take a pay cut down to $40k

Regards QF

[dragon man]

The Qantas bonus system is straight from Orwells Animal Farm, all animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

[Lapon]

not aware of any QF ML resigning to go across Pacific

That is true, but also remember that anyone wanting to go overseas wouldn't join ML in the first place so that skews perceptions.

Qantas (as with all legacies) essentially locks you tighter the longer one is there too. Waiting 10-20 years for a command is not the best way to realise any overseas ambitions, much less so if most of any experience is limited to the back seat.

There are plenty who want to climb the 10-20+ year ladder to command at Qantas, but plenty too who want to get a wide body window seat in the US ASAP - something that was never avaliable in my early days.

[soseg]

not aware of any QF ML resigning to go across Pacific)

I personally know one. A few more have done it. Not in big numbers. Probably single digits. You can be sure though plenty have turned down a start date.

[Makiko]

Lapon it may well be that they didn't get invited to do aptitude/psych , only 25% of externals did in 18 & 22. Or they didn't get through interview/sim

The wage data that Atlas was presenting in 22 was so far from reality it wasn't funny & not exactly an express ride to LHS

[Chadzat]

And plenty are turning down a ML start date too. Mainly due to the appalling Airbus SO B scale.

[Makiko]

Yes the ML contract is just outrageous
Much better to be working for regionals, ulcc on two year renewable visa
Only half of people turning up to ML first day

[soseg]

Only half of people turning up to ML first day

Not true.

[Verbal Kint]

You’re a bit of a tool Makiko.

Folks want info. about QF recruitment, and the best you can do is deflect conversation and ridicule US opportunities when your straw man argument proves you know squat.

Some personal favourites so far. Correcting a Cathay guy on his own career trajectory. Proclaiming to a bunch of Aussie United/Delta pilots on this forum that no Australian pilots work for the US majors. Or ignoring the fact many Australians have converted an E3 Visa to green card and are working at the majors, or soon could be.

Smart people know to keep quiet about matters they know nothing about. Competition from better opportunities overseas might help recover some of the eroded conditions Australian pilots have suffered the past few decades. You seem to have a hard time understanding that.

[HongKongflu]

Just remember the $500 "credit" can only be used once Qantas is unable sell that seat to literally any other person for any price i.e. it can only be used if the flight is just about to go with an empty seat.

[RealSatoshi]

The Qantas bonus system is straight from Orwells Animal Farm, all animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

"We'll give them a $500 Staff Travel Credit which they can never use......."

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x469/53702612_2376232192649785_3856492255095291904_n_208623a3bec7 e0b27ed67a5aa411e2060729100f.png

[Ollie Onion]

Yes, give them improved priorities and a credit for flights they can't get on as our network is such a shambles. Talk up the $5k which is two years old and only paid after they accepted a pay freeze which cost most staff way more than $5k over their career and give them shares which we buy back anyway to inflate the price to help our own bonuses..... Genius.

[nvfr]

I can’t believe there’s not more of a revolt about the bonus or lack thereof. We group staff have been to hell and back for this company. After working to pull through covid and sacrificing so much now the company makes record profits we get $500 travel credit. Watch and see what Joyce gets. All group employees should be absolutely disgusted by this

[aussieflyboy]

I can’t believe there’s not more of a revolt about the bonus or lack thereof. We group staff have been to hell and back for this company. After working to pull through covid and sacrificing so much now the company makes record profits we get $500 travel credit. Watch and see what Joyce gets. All group employees should be absolutely disgusted by this

Make a post on the companies social thing (Viva Engage?) the post regarding staff travel seemed to have some success.

[noclue]

That’s too busy at the moment with infighting over where the liability sits regarding some kids handing out water bottles on a flight 🤦‍♂️

[skypilot646]

Does anyone have the latest on whether it is feasible/ likely within a reasonable timeframe, to move from qlink to mainline? Or is it best to start elsewhere and apply direct entry? TYIA

[Gazza mate]

Does anyone have the latest on whether it is feasible/ likely within a reasonable timeframe, to move from qlink to mainline? Or is it best to start elsewhere and apply direct entry? TYIA

Feasible: Possible to do easily or conveniently (Oxford dictionary).

In short, the answer these days is a big fat no. It is definitely not feasible/ likely within a reasonable time frame to move from Qlink to mainline. All the proof is in these pages and pages of warnings and stories of woe here on pprune with the occasional “I told you so” for those who didn’t listen.

However, it is possible to easily and conveniently move from Rex and virgin ie. the opposition airlines to Mainline within a very reasonable timeframe. Fair or unfair, that’s just how it is currently. You can either work the system to your advantage or get frustrated trying to fight the system.

[1234fly]

Some people I know don't have an internal mainline start until 2025. So allow 3 years from interview date if you are internal....best to go external or watch all your external colleagues pass you even though you have been loyal to "qantas"

[havick]

Some people I know don't have an internal mainline start until 2025. So allow 3 years from interview date if you are internal....best to go external or watch all your external colleagues pass you even though you have been loyal to "qantas"

Same thing happens in the US. Rule of thumb is if your end goal is American Airlines, then fly for a United or Delta regional airline, and vice versa. Flow throughs do work they just take longer.

On one hand it makes sense for the parent company to keep it’s regional staffed, but it’s also shortsighted as they’re going to lose the staff anyway to competitor (at least in the current market).

To be fair Australia is a little different as where else are you going to go from Qlink other than Virgin if you want to stay in Australia?

[dr dre]

Feasible: Possible to do easily or conveniently (Oxford dictionary).

In short, the answer these days is a big fat no. It is definitely not feasible/ likely within a reasonable time frame to move from Qlink to mainline. All the proof is in these pages and pages of warnings and stories of woe here on pprune with the occasional “I told you so” for those who didn’t listen.

However, it is possible to easily and conveniently move from Rex and virgin ie. the opposition airlines to Mainline within a very reasonable timeframe. Fair or unfair, that’s just how it is currently. You can either work the system to your advantage or get frustrated trying to fight the system.

Whilst there are restrictions on moving from a group carrier to mainline it isn't either a convenient or assured thing to move from an external company to mainline. Don't forget only a minority of applicants will ever make it onto the hold file, and this includes Rex/VA/CX/GA pilots applying. I can't tell you if the chances of making it into mainline quicker are better inside or outside the group, but there's definitely been plenty of external candidates knocked back.

[Makiko]

You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.

Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?

Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal

External (2018 & 2022 intakes)

2000 plus applicants in two week application window
500 get an aptitude test
assume 30% cull rate test
assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years

Internals 2022

All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)

So if you are waiting a long time as internal applicant it is because you ranked at the bottom end of merit pool. But it must be of significant consolation to know that if you had to compete with equal footing against externals , you just wouldn't be there

The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped

I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced

The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done

If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)

And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File

Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed

[RobCl]

In terms of do you go with a Qantas Group company or an external, the answer is surely the age old advice that hasn't ever changed, don't over think it and take the first better offer that comes up.

Everyone I did my training with took different paths, some went through Qlink others went through external companies, some flew jets some through turbo props. There's no right or wrong way and lot comes down to luck. But if I had an offer for Qlink I wouldn't be sitting in my 402 (or these days more likely my 210 or 182) thinking that move would hold back my career!

[walesregent]

You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.

Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?

Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal

External (2018 & 2022 intakes)

2000 plus applicants in two week application window
500 get an aptitude test
assume 30% cull rate test
assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years

Internals 2022

All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)

So if you are waiting a long time as internal applicant it is because you ranked at the bottom end of merit pool. But it must be of significant consolation to know that if you had to compete with equal footing against externals , you just wouldn't be there

The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped

I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced

The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done

If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)

And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File


or they offer start dates to internals in more or less the exact order in which they interviewed, which followed a system where candidates booked their own interview based on a batch of available dates. Some people didn’t get through at all, so worth preparing for, but if you met a minimum standard it didn’t seem particularly selective.

[Makiko]

Rob the "Age Old" advice applied to rules that existed at the time

When the game changes the advice no longer applies

QF adopted a "recruit to group" strategy back in 16/17

Using the age old advice you would leave Qlink to go to Rex 737 , thus moving from 80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.

Why would they offer start dates on the interview date order ? That just means that the guy who scored in top 5% can start after a guy who got zero on his entry exam, aptitude whatever . I think you will find all hold files / order of merit etc that candidates are ranked

You would have had to of been pretty ordinary not to get through

[cLeArIcE]

Yeah, ask Jetstar if they are releasing people on merit to QF.

[DropYourSocks]

80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.

You make a lot of assumptions while attacking anybody with a dissenting opinion of the Qantas group. The Townsville cool aid tastes good, but it might not necessarily be accurate. But that is by design.

The age old advice holds true even today, take the first offer that gets you further up the food chain. You never know when the music will stop and promised "flow dates" or internals dry up. Better to be safely in a seat you could spend a decade in, rather than hoping management promises come true.

[Gazza mate]

Makiko,

What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines

Not at all, in fact working for a group airline can be very very satisfying and enjoyable. But, that wasn’t the question.

​​​​​​​

assume 30% cull rate test
assume 25% cull rate interview/sim



Your assumptions, they are just that, assumptions.

​​​​​​​The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that

It’s irrelevant whether you think it’s fair or unfair how the ratios are worked out. The system is the system and pilots can’t change it. My point is, know the system as use it to your advantage. Skypilot was asking a fair question about how things work at the moment.

How the system works currently seems to be this. Group airlines are making lots of money, but they pay poorly and therefore seem to be having trouble attracting and retaining pilots. In this environment, it simply does not make business sense to poach pilots from these profitable group airlines to then see revenue drop.

Skypilot wasn’t even asking if it was possible to move from qlink to mainline. Of course it is possible.

The question was clear. Is it possible to easily and conveniently move from qlink to mainline within a reasonable timeframe?

The clear answer is, in this current environment, no.

[framer]

Using the age old advice you would leave Qlink to go to Rex 737 , thus moving from 80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application. That is a dope move that all Q-Link First Officers should consider. Zip over to Rex, get 500hrs 737 domestic, jump into Qantas ( pay any bond you might have to), get offered the 737 during induction due to your recent experience, pull in $250k in your first year. If you know how to study hard for six weeks, haven’t yet tied yourself to a location through kids at school etc, and can be polite and relaxed during an interview…..it’s a great idea.

[noclue]

Not many Qlink FOs (let alone Capts) would have a jet rating or 300hrs on a jet so Rex jet is out…

Essential Selection Criteria

We require all applicants for the position of First Officer to possess the following:


Australian Air Transport Pilot Licence or Commercial Pilots Licence as applicable
Turbojet Type Rating
IPC (or participating in an equivalent approved system)
Civil Aviation Safety Authority Class 1 medical or equivalent
Minimum of 300 hours experience on narrow body/wide body jet aircraft
Australian citizen or permanent residence status

[Swept-Wing]

Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)



I can confirm, and I have experienced this first hand and heard It from the horses mouth, that the only subsidiary that do this is QLINK.
All other subsidiaries base releases on Tenure / Seniority.


The internal recruitment process is FAR from perfect however here are the FACTS:

External
- Harder to get a job with ML
- Once you get a job, quicker start (currently around 12-18 months)

Internal
- Easier to get a job with ML
- Once you get a job, harder to get a release / start (currently around 18-36 months depending on subsidiary)

[1234fly]

You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.

Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?

Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal

External (2018 & 2022 intakes)

2000 plus applicants in two week application window
500 get an aptitude test
assume 30% cull rate test
assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years

Internals 2022

All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)

So if you are waiting a long time as internal applicant it is because you ranked at the bottom end of merit pool. But it must be of significant consolation to know that if you had to compete with equal footing against externals , you just wouldn't be there

The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped

I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced

The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done

If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)

And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File

Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed


Incorrect being ranked.off aptitude is a thing of the past. Now it goes in order of interview dates and time

[Lapon]

737 during induction due to your recent experience, pull in $250k in your first year

Say whaaaaat? an ex VA guy on another threat was saying year one QF 737 was $300k starting!? Someone else said it was at least $350k??

If its dropped to 250k in the last month or two at least they are still paying nice round numbers to B737 new joiners whatever the pay really is :E

[Jimothy]

Ha. $300k per year for first year FO ? Not even close. Even $250k would be pushing it. Year one pay rate is $208 per stick hour.

[DirectAnywhere]

Ha. $300k per year for first year FO ? Not even close. Even $250k would be pushing it. Year one pay rate is $208 per stick hour.

We haven’t included allowances and super yet. (Can we not do this again, please?)

[RatherBeFlying07]

Incorrect being ranked.off aptitude is a thing of the past. Now it goes in order of interview dates and time

Nothing personal — with respect, that’s bollocks. The rumour is fueled by members of the recruitment team, but that’s not happening.

4 candidates per assessment centre. I don’t know anybody who started on the same intake as someone from their interview.

[Callsign Please]

Direct from those moving and those approving around my flight levels, it’s a dance between your place on the “ranked list” and your current value to the business. Final say rests with HR or above, as I’ve seen new capts taken and FOs held back, otherwise vice versa.

But, this is just one subsidiary and there are 5.199 of us now.

[framer]

If its dropped to 250k in the last month or two at least they are still paying nice round numbers to B737 new joiners whatever the pay really is images/smilies/evil.gif
No don’t worry, I just knocked a bit off to account for training, also, it was just a guess, also, it was SAANI ( Super and Allowances Not Included).
​​​​​​​

[Poto]

Why don’t we include super and allowances? Talking about salary as a whole package is quite commonplace in all industries. The way these components are calculated within different agreements makes a difference that can’t be ignored. For SH to simply say it’s $X per hour for the min guarantee is short changing what every Pilot actually sees in the bank.

[engine out]

From the EBA. First year FO 737 is $145238.32 for 696 hours, or $208.67 per hour with min guarantee of 53.24 hours per 28 day bid period. Add 20 hours for 4 sims and EP each year adds another $4173.40. If managed to do 900 hours it would be around $187803 plus DTA (taxed on day trips and untaxed on overnights off memory). To earn around $250000 on year 1 you would need to be way from home for around 5000hrs, or at work for 4 hours for every hour you flew. These are just beer coaster maths and I’m sure there are those who will work it differently and tell me I’m wrong.

[romeocharlie]

From the EBA. First year FO 737 is $145238.32 for 696 hours, or $208.67 per hour with min guarantee of 53.24 hours per 28 day bid period. Add 20 hours for 4 sims and EP each year adds another $4173.40. If managed to do 900 hours it would be around $187803 plus DTA (taxed on day trips and untaxed on overnights off memory). To earn around $250000 on year 1 you would need to be way from home for around 5000hrs, or at work for 4 hours for every hour you flew. These are just beer coaster maths and I’m sure there are those who will work it differently and tell me I’m wrong.

The hourly rate is only calculated for additional hours you do above 53.5 per 28 days. Bit of beer coaster maths... Let's say you do 85.5 hours (credit) per 28 (which isn't unachievable - sometimes you get 4hrs for doing a Sydney return from Melbourne or Brisbane). That's an extra 30 hours credit per 28 on top of that base salary. 30*$208.67 = $6260.10 * 12 (because even on leave you get average credit overtime that you do). = $75,121.20 + base salary of $145238.32 = 220,359.52 + all the other sim stuff etc. You're good for about $225 year one if you work hard. Yes there are people who've gotten close to $300k, but it's rare. Also, I didn't account for the SH bonus which is calculated on a bunch of stuff including management performance percentage and your yearly credit hours.

[Makiko]

Swept Wing closer to the mark, but there just isn't a "no start" rule for 18 months, the objective is that all commence (internals/externals) within 2 years of completing selection

I personally know a number of JQ who commenced with ML within 12 months

According to people there after 22 process, JQ queued by seniority, other group airlines by merit

All commenced within 2 years of selection (just same as externals) might be tad longer for Qlink but that is likely a function of how many are actually going to ML . 150 out of 450 (maybe 170), 33% of the pilot group. Wonder how many Qlink applied ? , looks like a pretty good conversion rate compared to external apps

[Lapon]

The hourly rate is only calculated for additional hours you do above 53.5 per 28 days. Bit of beer coaster maths... Let's say you do 85.5 hours (credit) per 28

I Dont want to sound rude, but who in thier right mind would opt for 85.5 hours per 28 days on a short haul aircraft?

Don't we ​​​​​to all want to only fly the bare minimum... personally thats about 20-30 hrs max a month, but noway in hell 80+ :yuk:

Is the $250k, $300k, or $350k B737 FO salary achieveable doing only 20-30 hrs flying a month?

I wouldn't have thought so, But using an 80hrs/28 days sked to inflate a paycheck is akin to saying pay in Australia is ****e in $AU terms vs what the E3 guys earn - except in the latter case we agree thats not an apples-apples comparison.

[Icarus2001]

For SH to simply say it’s $X per hour for the min guarantee is short changing what every Pilot actually sees in the bank.

You will not be seeing Superannuation in your bank and will not be able to access it until >60, so no it should not be included. Allowances are mostly spent anyway, unless you want to eat two minute noodles in your room and drink tap water.

[ScepticalOptomist]

You will not be seeing Superannuation in your bank and will not be able to access it until >60, so no it should not be included. Allowances are mostly spent anyway, unless you want to eat two minute noodles in your room and drink tap water.

Agreed - a fairer comparison would be “average hours” over the pay period multiplied by the rate. More indicative of what the average Jane would be paid.. Minimim rates have their place, but isn’t useful if no one does minimum hours.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I Dont want to sound rude, but who in thier right mind would opt for 85.5 hours per 28 days on a short haul aircraft?

Don't we ​​​​​to all want to only fly the bare minimum... personally thats about 20-30 hrs max a month, but noway in hell 80+ :yuk:

Is the $250k, $300k, or $350k B737 FO salary achieveable doing only 20-30 hrs flying a month?

I wouldn't have thought so, But using an 80hrs/28 days sked to inflate a paycheck is akin to saying pay in Australia is ****e in $AU terms vs what the E3 guys earn - except in the latter case we agree thats not an apples-apples comparison.

Totally agree - SH hours in the 65-75 hour range seem to be most popular. Good balance between days worked and pay.

By that metric the $300K/350K+ figures are more akin to the Capt rate.

[Poto]

You will not be seeing Superannuation in your bank and will not be able to access it until >60, so no it should not be included. Allowances are mostly spent anyway, unless you want to eat two minute noodles in your room and drink tap water.
super is calculated differently on all Pilot agreements in QF group. It should most definitely be included in any salary comparison. The SH Bonus is another consideration.

[dr dre]

Totally agree - SH hours in the 65-75 hour range seem to be most popular. Good balance between days worked and pay.

By that metric the $300K/350K+ figures are more akin to the Capt rate.

It still is the highest paid narrowbody FO job in the country, and one of the highest in the world outside the US majors and contract jobs.

[Jack D. Ripper]

It still is the highest paid narrowbody FO job in the country, and one of the highest in the world outside the US majors and contract jobs.

Judging by the latest press you need to check your morals at the door working for this mob….. probably a good thing they pay well

[ExtraShot]

Judging by the latest press you need to check your morals at the door working for this mob….. probably a good thing they pay well


Thats a rather pathetic low blow.

The vast, VAST majority of us find the actions of the higher ups reprehensible.

[Jester64]

It still is the highest paid narrowbody FO job in the country, and one of the highest in the world outside the US majors and contract jobs.

Probably highest paid gross, but who cares about gross figures when you gotta give 30% back to the government.

I think you may have forgotten about the ME3 here….a NB FO (first year) on 65 hours would clear the equivalent of around $13,000 AUD per month. Then they are gonna pay you another $5,500 to spend as little or as much as you want on accomodation (granted the families will spend the lot but a single guy is gonna cash in here). That’s a monthly net salary of $18,500 just there. And before someone chimes in saying I shouldn’t include the housing allowance, why not? Does QF pay your rent or mortgage or does it come out of your monthly pay-check?

[Jack D. Ripper]

Thats a rather pathetic low blow.

The vast, VAST majority of us find the actions of the higher ups reprehensible.

I’ve heard that for many, many years now, yet people apply and people stay.

Eventually it says something about you.

Besides, The secret findings of the EB review suggest the cultural issues go far deeper than the boardroom.

My point is that at least the $$ can assuage any feelings of guilt by association.

[Beer Baron]

I’ve heard that for many, many years now, yet people apply and people stay.

Eventually it says something about you.
What total garbage.
If you’re an airline pilot in Australia, you’ve got to choose between Bain & Co, Lim Kim Hai or Joyce. So tell me, where do the truly virtuous pilots work??

[slice]

Bonza‼️🤪

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I’ve heard that for many, many years now, yet people apply and people stay.

Eventually it says something about you.



Presumably your moral judgement also extends to anyone who works for banks, telcos, the media, advertisers, and our various tiers of government? (Just for starters)

[Lapon]

It still is the highest paid narrowbody FO job in the country, and one of the highest in the world outside the US majors and contract jobs.

I thought VA were paid more than QF on the B737? My awareness of that was pre Bain I admit.

Outside of the US and contracting where do substantial numbers of Australian NB pilots go anyway?
I dont work for QF, but I have no doubt that reasonable coin can be earned for anyone wanting to be flogged 60-80hrs a month, but the same can be said for Alliance and it seems air NZ too.

My only gripe is people claiming to be paid $250k-$350k+ without disclaiming they have to fly a crap load over min hours to achieve that, and one fleet/rank/company in particular seem to be notorious for that.

[ScepticalOptomist]

My point is that at least the $$ can assuage any feelings of guilt by association.

Absolutely no guilt here - what the C suite does is their business. I just fly the jets and smile wider every fortnight.

[C441]

I’ve heard that for many, many years now, yet people apply and people stay.
Eventually it says something about you.
Besides, The secret findings of the EB review suggest the cultural issues go far deeper than the boardroom.
My point is that at least the $$ can assuage any feelings of guilt by association.
As Qatar Airways is a fully funded arm of the Qatari government, I guess all those expats working for Qatar are supportive of the human rights abuses in that country too. :rolleyes:

[dr dre]

I thought VA were paid more than QF on the B737? My awareness of that was pre Bain I admit.

I believe pre-Bain VA had a higher min guarantee but with QF you could earn more if you worked up to max hours.

Now QF comes out ahead on both fronts.

As Qatar Airways is a fully funded arm of the Qatari government, I guess all those expats working for Qatar are supportive of the human rights abuses in that country too. :rolleyes:

If you traced the ethical decisions of businesses and governments all the way to the top you won’t find many employers who can claim have a totally clean record.

Bain Capital for instance has a notorious record for taking over businesses, sacking workers, destroying standards and then escaping with a hefty payout just prior to that business going bankrupt.

It’s always hilarious to see John Sharp crying about favouritism for Qantas given his former LNP buddies provided the start up financing for his jet operation.

Ans so and and so forth. If you want to find a completely ethical employer you are going to be searching for a long long time…..

[slice]

I thought VA were paid more than QF on the B737? My awareness of that was pre Bain I admit.

Pre 2021 (Pre Bain) Virgin 737 crew were on a higher base (~240k)but with a much higher OT trigger. For a 70 hour roster I think QF crew were ahead by about 20~30 %

Post 2021 737 CPT base is ~205K but trigger is now 57.5 hrs / 28 days. Plenty of work so some have flogged themselves and reached ~310K (some maybe even more). Numbers don't include allowances & super. 12 days off in 28 (13 if rostered less than 65 hrs)

HOWEVER roster bidding is crap, long duties and min rest at or close to FDP limits.

[skypilot646]

Hypothetically, if you are on the hold file for qlink, can you apply to mainline and interview for them? Or would you need to withdraw your qlink application?

[high_flyer747]

Hiya All,

Anyone have any news or insider info on when QF ML will be recruiting for externals?
Currently working for Air NZ and looking to come back to Australia for more of a lifestyle change having lived there previously.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance :)

[dr dre]

Hiya All,

Anyone have any news or insider info on when QF ML will be recruiting for externals?
Currently working for Air NZ and looking to come back to Australia for more of a lifestyle change having lived there previously.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance :)

No concrete dates. They’re still allocating start dates to the current hold file. Some internals have start dates all throughout next year. My guess would be they have enough now on hold to not have to reopen applications for externals until sometime next year.

But what will be certain is that in the long term (beyond the next 6 months) they will definitely need to reopen applications as future projected hiring is substantial. Bare minimum 1500 new hires over 10 years.

[high_flyer747]

Thanks for that mate. Much appreciated!!


No concrete dates. They’re still allocating start dates to the current hold file. Some internals have start dates all throughout next year. My guess would be they have enough now on hold to not have to reopen applications for externals until sometime next year.

But what will be certain is that in the long term (beyond the next 6 months) they will definitely need to reopen applications as future projected hiring is substantial. Bare minimum 1500 new hires over 10 years.

[Ranger290]

Does anyone know when the benefits of staff travel kick in for ML? Is there a certain amount of time you must wait after beginning training or is it immediate ?

[Brakerider]

Does anyone know when the benefits of staff travel kick in for ML? Is there a certain amount of time you must wait after beginning training or is it immediate ?

QF Day 1. Interline 6 months

[Ranger290]

I assume this is day 1 of training and what do you mean by interline ?

[FO NappyBum]

I assume this is day 1 of training and what do you mean by interline ?

Yes avbl from day 1 but in saying that it will take approx 2 to 7 days to get access ( IT thing). Interline = other carriers (emirates etc).

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Rumour the subsidiaries are going to go hard for group seniority , it’s a total injustice that there’s not a seamless transition to mainline .
Im surprised mainline isn’t going all widebody , as Australian airports are capacity constrained wouldn’t it be more sensible to send larger aircraft less often to major airports , also requires less staff overall .

[Brakerider]

Rumour the subsidiaries are going to go hard for group seniority , it’s a total injustice that there’s not a seamless transition to mainline .
Im surprised mainline isn’t going all widebody , as Australian airports are capacity constrained wouldn’t it be more sensible to send larger aircraft less often to major airports , also requires less staff overall .

they can go as hard as they like. It just won’t happen

[High_To_Low]

Has anyone been given start dates recently?

[morno]

Rumour the subsidiaries are going to go hard for group seniority , it’s a total injustice that there’s not a seamless transition to mainline .
Im surprised mainline isn’t going all widebody , as Australian airports are capacity constrained wouldn’t it be more sensible to send larger aircraft less often to major airports , also requires less staff overall .

Sure, make them all go through the same interview process that everyone else has to do, then give them a number on the bottom. Otherwise why should they get a number on the list when they haven’t had to pass the same standard as the rest of the mainline pilots?

[On Guard]

Has anyone been given start dates recently?

Yes. Nov and Dec are filled.

[KABOY]

Otherwise why should they get a number on the list when they haven’t had to pass the same standard as the rest of the mainline pilots?

This line fascinates me, what exactly is the 'same standard'?

Seems to be an element of superiority in that reference. Are mainline pilots a true cut above every other QF group pilots, are they better suited for swept wing aircraft or turbofan operations?

Please help me, what is the standard?

[Going Nowhere]

Rumour the subsidiaries are going to go hard for group seniority , it’s a total injustice that there’s not a seamless transition to mainline .
Im surprised mainline isn’t going all widebody , as Australian airports are capacity constrained wouldn’t it be more sensible to send larger aircraft less often to major airports , also requires less staff overall .

The Dash 8 subsidiaries aren’t going for it as an EBA issue.

It involves communication with the QF pilot councils (who effectively control their respective seniority lists).

Any discussions have been around ways in which to improve or streamline the recruitment process into QLink or help recruit or retain crew into the C&T ranks. Plenty of crew have said that if they could get LWOP from QF once they started, they would stay in QLink in the short term.

The result would be that QF would then have a list full of crew on LWOP waiting for their preferred base/fleet to come up which isn’t ideal.

At the moment, crew believe the best way into QF from QLink is to not make yourself too useful. There’s crew on the hold file who will not apply to the C&T department for fear that they will become too valuable and find their “tentative” course dates pushed back.

There’s also F/O’s who are close to command but will not take one due to the bond payments that may be required when their number at QF comes up.

[morno]

What standard 😂. You blokes have such an inflated sense of self. Just talk to the ex CX crew who have joined as SO's. Overwhelming consensus is how poor the said standard is.

It’s called an interview mate, I never inferred flying standard.

Why should a subsidiary pilot be able to get in interview free? Fair enough not much point doing a sim, because there’s a record of that in the system.

[Brakerider]

Just take a look at what’s happening over the ditch. Under Air NZs RPPP, subsidiary pilots are taking jet jobs “interview free”. These are the same pilots that years earlier failed the Air NZ Jet recruitment process. They’re now limping through jet type ratings and in some cases still failing.

Not at all suggesting this is the case for most pilots. It’s just why there needs to be least 1 hurdle.

[Poto]

What standard 😂. You blokes have such an inflated sense of self. Just talk to the ex CX crew who have joined as SO's. Overwhelming consensus is how poor the said standard is.
None leaving due to this poor standard. No one putting their hand up to ‘fix’ the supposed poor standard! Thank goodness we have them so we can all finally be safe.

[Global Aviator]

How strange a thread turns into a pissing contest.

Would it not make more sense for the group to have a standard interview criteria and process for all entities, then negate the need for a final mainline interview?

It has always perplexed me how one can be flying for one entity go to the next fail an interview yet go back to flying at the original. In a world where we operate to SOPS why not bring it all in line.

Whoops talking common sense.

Back to mines longer than yours.