Qantas Recruitment

[43Inches]

That's the reason the US pilot unions enacted the 'scope clauses'. Regionals were force limited to maximum aircraft size by union terms to avoid white-anting legacy airline pilots terms and conditions.

[Jetsbest]

That's the reason the US pilot unions enacted the 'scope clauses'.

They foresaw the adverse potential and negotiated ‘scope’ clauses with the companies. In a very short time the companies realised they didn’t like the ramifications but it was too late; it was in the contract.

However, companies like Qantas observed & learned quickly. Even before James Strong was Qantas’ CEO it was stated that Qantas would NEVER allow scope. As recently as the ‘90s, a segment of QF’s mainline pilots offered management significant savings/economies provided scope was included for all future Mainline types. IT WAS REJECTED OUT OF HAND.

Jetstar, Jetconnect, Q-link, Q-jet, etc make the reason why obvious.:ouch:

[43Inches]

This article from ALPA cites the importance of scope clauses and ALPAs collective bargaining power;

https://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa/magazine/2003/March2003_Scope.htm

The problem with Australia is that each airline has its own union which means any coordinated move by pilots to regulate terms and conditions is restricted to each company at a time. 1989 showed that when one union goes out on a limb, the union that felt it had nothing to lose just watched and let it happen. Without getting into the politics of that, ALPA has always represented a huge majority of US pilots and as such scope clauses are relatively easy for them to negotiate and apply to a number of airlines at once. Yes having your own union does mean you focus on particular company issues, however a strong large union can prevent degradation of conditions across a number of workplaces. Maritime unions locally are an example of this.

Of course if one union goes up against its own company for scope it will get rejected out of hand, that's so easy to see. Threaten the whole industry with walk out if scope is not implemented, now you get the attention of the top players. What bargaining power did a QF pilot have in the 90s? AN had just squashed the 89 rebellion dramatically using government support, that would be pretty fresh in the minds of pilots and management. Of course anything that hamstrings a companies ability to be flexible will be rejected out of hand.

Some quotes from the article;Capt. Woerth told ALPA’s Executive Board in September 2002: "We will never be able to stop the race to the bottom in every economic downturn or to stop competing for jobs within a code-share alliance if we don’t get some degree of control over what the terms and conditions are for qualifying for a code-share.

"I firmly believe," Capt. Woerth said, "that if we coordinate our joint campaign for this next-generation scope, which involves more code-share governance [and] puts as much or more emphasis on the quality of the pilot contracts involved as in the quantity of aircraft types permitted, then the profession and every pilot in the code-share arrangement will be better served."

First Officer Ron Abel (United), BSIC co-chair, says, "Scope is an important and necessary tool for protecting our jobs, but it cannot be truly effective unless pilots within an airline system understand that all our jobs are at stake if we don’t work together to provide scope protection on a system or global basis.

"No one should pretend that the way ahead will be easy," F/O Abel says, "but drawing lines around each pilot group’s flying isn’t providing the protection we need for the whole system."

That last one really is what happens in Australia.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Ollie is a NZ Jetstar pilot who encouraged mainline pilots to vote NO to the LongHaul EA because he “would like the chance to fly the A350”, when Tino went nuclear an declared he’d get someone else to fly it.

I believed it was tongue in cheek, but maybe it wasn’t. Neither a troll or an angel.

[Keg]

Threaten the whole industry with walk out if scope is not implemented, now you get the attention of the top players.
.

Yeah, nah. Not permitted under Australian law. The Labor party did away with that in the late ‘80s.

[43Inches]

Yeah, nah. Not permitted under Australian law. The Labor party did away with that in the late ‘80s.

While you won't get away with it again company by company, a whole industry that jointly decides not to go to work on a day, who's going to fine or launch legal action against 10,000 at once. The walk out rules are only to stifle individual companies from being shut down, there is no way the legal system would cope with or want to cope with an industry wide stop work.

Red light says I must stop, but there is no barrier from me driving right through it. I can then choose not to pay the fine, if I did it on my own, I would suffer the consequences. If the whole of Melbourne decided red lights mean nothing and just did it en-masse the legal system could do nowt to stop it, not enough police to enforce it etc etc.

The recent riots in Melbourne proved all this, 3-5 thousand protesters, a few hundred arrests. Mostly only those that committed violent acts only.

The reason the ATC guys got away with it and AN folk didn't, one controlled the whole workforce, the other was just half of a workforce.

The ideal situation would be a union like ALPA to go global, and we just all jump on board. Then you can coordinate with even foreign hires as well, at least have all these unions work together and not as separate entities.

[neville_nobody]

The reason the ATC guys got away with it and AN folk didn't one controlled the whole workforce the other was just half of a workforce.

Also helps that the Labor government decided to use the Military as scab labour. Then they imported foreign labour. The only way to achieve your goal is to threaten a mass resignation with signatures and we all know how that went last time around.:rolleyes:

Basically you have no real industrial options other than resignation unless you want to start a hard core militant union like the MUA or CFMEU. The problem here is that pilots are never going to play that game and aviation as a industry is far to individualistic in its nature so that it will never really work anyway. And even if you somehow manage to organise a tougher union stance the airlines will just go to the world market and start importing labour. Something that doesn't happen to alot of the trades in Australia and hence their ability to run a tough union as they are the ones who control the labour. (and also another reason why your good local tradie does so well. He has no labour competition) Aviation by its nature is international so importing pilots from the rest of the world won't be too difficult.

Just consider for a moment the number of Australians that are working for foreign airlines who would love to come home to a command. That's your competition right there and that's without the government even orchestrating visas. Then following on from them is everyone who has the right to live in Australia. UK, South Africa, Canada, USA. Honestly it wouldn't be very hard to break any aviation labour campaign at all.

The only good news here is that there might be a real global shortage of pilots coming in 10 years or so. The fact that flying training is now prohibitively expensive along with a changing attitude of younger folk and the reality they have seen of how locked in you are as a pilot and how the airlines have destroyed all the career paths in the industry might actually bring about some change but it may not too. The executive will just run the well dry and then go cap in hand to the government complaining.

[43Inches]

I do agree in part, however, ALPA has done very well for legacy airlines in the US, hence those pilots at the Majors have enjoyed good wages and conditions for some time. The companies have to go chapter 11 to get any movement on pilot contracts. The difference there is all pilots at the large majors stuck together in writing these deals. AN and QF might have worked on different planets when it came to pilot bodies cooperating on wages and conditions. Again collective bargaining really only works when you have a large collective industry wide, otherwise the negotiations are just between one employer and its people and then the company pretty much gets what it wants, with, here's some cpi for you. Then when you ask for more, 'oops our company is no longer viable due to greedy pilots', starts a new subsidiary and hires pilots on less of everything etc etc, we all know how that goes...

Maritime unions control everything from training to hiring policies.

The only good news here is that there might be a real global shortage of pilots coming in 10 years or so.

Means nothing to me, Australian pilots got virtually nothing out of the last 'shortage'. Shortage means nothing if the corps control the tap and not the workers. In fact during some of this so called 'shortage' didn't QF guys accept a pay freeze at one point?

[theheadmaster]

While you won't get away with it again company by company, a whole industry that jointly decides not to go to work on a day, who's going to fine or launch legal action against 10,000 at once. The walk out rules are only to stifle individual companies from being shut down, there is no way the legal system would cope with or want to cope with an industry wide stop work.

Red light says I must stop, but there is no barrier from me driving right through it. I can then choose not to pay the fine, if I did it on my own, I would suffer the consequences. If the whole of Melbourne decided red lights mean nothing and just did it en-masse the legal system could do nowt to stop it, not enough police to enforce it etc etc.

The recent riots in Melbourne proved all this, 3-5 thousand protesters, a few hundred arrests. Mostly only those that committed violent acts only.

The reason the ATC guys got away with it and AN folk didn't, one controlled the whole workforce, the other was just half of a workforce.

The ideal situation would be a union like ALPA to go global, and we just all jump on board. Then you can coordinate with even foreign hires as well, at least have all these unions work together and not as separate entities.

What you are talking about is unprotected industrial action. Companies would not have to go after all employees to be effective, they might just limit themselves to those that organised the action. It would be very difficult to organise action on such a massive scale without leaving a trail to point to the organisers. You will not find any union (that you would want to be a member of) that would choose to place itself, its staff and its members in a position where they could be found liable for the damages caused to a company by such a stoppage.

[43Inches]

To be honest it would never need to get to that, protected industry action across the board would be easy to achieve if it was a united front under the banner of job and wage security. It just would not get up under one company as per previous point, it would be quite easy to prove to a commissioner that subsidiaries are being used to white ant conditions and that industry wide protection is required in contract set up. This has been done in other industries. It's not hard to get PIA if the company refuses to negotiate a topic, like scope.

[Ollie Onion]

Thanks Fatguyinalittlecoat, that explains his posts.

Ollie, I feel sorry for you.

Don’t feel sorry for me, I am quite happy in life. There needs to be some realisation that given the structure of the Group, management have many options for crewing their aircraft, we have no say in it.

oh and by the way I am no longer in Jetstar NZ, I enjoyed my short stint their but have moved on.

[theheadmaster]

To be honest it would never need to get to that, protected industry action across the board would be easy to achieve if it was a united front under the banner of job and wage security. It just would not get up under one company as per previous point, it would be quite easy to prove to a commissioner that subsidiaries are being used to white ant conditions and that industry wide protection is required in contract set up. This has been done in other industries. It's not hard to get PIA if the company refuses to negotiate a topic, like scope.

You won't get approval for PIA for a claim that is not an allowable matter. You might wish to check what happened in 2011 to Qantas mainline pilots.

[neville_nobody]

Meanwhile the TWU and MUA are trying to shutdown the country for Christmas.

[Loopa12]

Can anyone confirm / deny the rumour that the chief pilot mentioned on a call in today that recruitment was likely to re-open in the new year?
Positive signs.....

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Yes he did.

[Telfer86]

I really don't want to be the fly in ointment here guys , but the data for August revealed 14% of pre-Covid rpt pax numbers
Data will be the same for Sept/Oct no doubt
Hope they do recruit but when your international/domestic 0%/14% of pre-covid ; how can this happen ?

Who is going to be game to travel to USA ?
You won't get travel insurance, so if you contract Covid whilst away & need hospital - you will be down six figures
That's a fair sort of gamble

Hope they do recruit & everyone else in travel

Why does everyone call me a pessimist ?

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

I really don't want to be the fly in ointment here guys , but the data for August revealed 14% of pre-Covid rpt pax numbers
Data will be the same for Sept/Oct no doubt
Hope they do recruit but when your international/domestic 0%/14% of pre-covid ; how can this happen ?

Who is going to be game to travel to USA ?
You won't get travel insurance, so if you contract Covid whilst away & need hospital - you will be down six figures
That's a fair sort of gamble

Hope they do recruit & everyone else in travel

Why does everyone call me a pessimist ?


thanks telfer. Can you call Dick and AJ and let them know please, before they make the mistake.

in all seriousness, I think travel will go completely crazy. We saw that happen last time we opened up. Every airplane was full, just about everywhere. I don’t see this being any different.

[Telfer86]

Thanks for the support Mate - it matters

Do you reckon I should also tell them that they have the wrong aeroplanes & that the aircraft are a bit too old
That their Anglophile focused OS strategy , well it might just need a second glance - it might actually be an idea to have
more than one city pair to PRC

Spiffing show Old Chap - lets just keep QF for the "right" passengers

Perhaps I shouldn't say anything the Marvelous Chappies at QF have been right on the money so far with QF "ramping up" & "ramping up" - Tootle Pip !

[Derfred]

Not everyone sees the world through your eyes, Telfer. If they did, we wouldn’t have invented the wheel yet, let alone Aviation.

I suggest you take what’s left of your LWOP, buy a used backpack from eBay, and go travel the remote regions of Asia or South America.

Yes, with no travel insurance, and preferably take very little money. Make do with what you find. Fix someone’s canoe for food. Build a shack for shelter. Fall in and out of love with the local girls you stumble across. Find lifelong friends.

Take some risks. Get scared, and then get overwhelmed with joy.

Then come back and fly for Qantas - then we will enjoy flying with you and hearing your stories.

[morno]

I really don't want to be the fly in ointment here guys , but the data for August revealed 14% of pre-Covid rpt pax numbers
Data will be the same for Sept/Oct no doubt
Hope they do recruit but when your international/domestic 0%/14% of pre-covid ; how can this happen ?

Who is going to be game to travel to USA ?
You won't get travel insurance, so if you contract Covid whilst away & need hospital - you will be down six figures
That's a fair sort of gamble

Hope they do recruit & everyone else in travel

Why does everyone call me a pessimist ?

What a completely boring person you are. Who wants to go to the US? I do! Along with the rest of the world.

Would you rather we just lock ourselves indoors forever?

And why reference data that is completely irrelevant to the upcoming situation?

[SOPS]

What a completely boring person you are. Who wants to go to the US? I do! Along with the rest of the world.

Would you rather we just lock ourselves indoors forever?

And why reference data that is completely irrelevant to the upcoming situation?

And are you going to be able to get travel insurance to do your trip to the USA? Or are you going to roll the dice and hope for the best ?

[Telfer86]

Pub; The problem would be that being fully vaccinated does not fully protect you against getting Covid
, you should have a look at the daily cases from places like Singapore that are a long way in front of us
regarding vaccination rates 82% V 62% (of total population)

We know being fully vaxxed reduces probability of getting virus(data?) & probability of getting very sick(significantly) , but that's all it does

So if USA is getting 100k per day , maybe that equates to 10k per day in California , so perhaps it isn't such a great
time to kick up your heels & say "yeah hah, lets party in Cali" . Because if you become Covid + , you won't be getting on an airplane to come
home anytime soon. & if you get sick your $10K holiday could become a $100K venture

Have you ever thought that maybe there is a reason that Japan, China , Vietnam , Korea , Malaysia , NZ , Taiwan etc etc remain closed to foreign visitors ?

I don't think so many will be voting that UK/USA are the developed countries that handled Covid best

But if you think it is all "Good as Gold" you go for it Tiger ; I really just hope you take any minors along for the ride

Jump in the waters just balmy (https://www.theage.com.au/national/if-overseas-flights-stressed-you-before-welcome-to-post-covid-travel-20211027-p593n9.html)

[On Guard]

Pub; The problem would be that being fully vaccinated does not fully protect you against getting Covid
, you should have a look at the daily cases from places like Singapore that are a long way in front of us
regarding vaccination rates 82% V 62% (of total population)

We know being fully vaxxed reduces probability of getting virus(data?) & probability of getting very sick(significantly) , but that's all it does

So if USA is getting 100k per day , maybe that equates to 10k per day in California , so perhaps it isn't such a great
time to kick up your heels & say "yeah hah, lets party in Cali" . Because if you become Covid + , you won't be getting on an airplane to come
home anytime soon. & if you get sick your $10K holiday could become a $100K venture

Have you ever thought that maybe there is a reason that Japan, China , Vietnam , Korea , Malaysia , NZ , Taiwan etc etc remain closed to foreign visitors ?

I don't think so many will be voting that UK/USA are the developed countries that handled Covid best

But if you think it is all "Good as Gold" you go for it Tiger ; I really just hope you take any minors along for the ride

Jump in the waters just balmy (https://www.theage.com.au/national/if-overseas-flights-stressed-you-before-welcome-to-post-covid-travel-20211027-p593n9.html)

Some perspective. We need to stop measuring cases rather hospitalisation as per endemic proolcols. US rate for vaccinated stands at 1/13000. In august 4% of vaccinated people made up hospitalisations but 87% were over 65 and 50% of them underlying health issues.
9000 road deaths occurred in the first quarter of 2021 in the USA

Some balance people.

[Keg]

It’d be nice if this thread didn’t turn into yet another Covid thread but given we’ve started to go down that road, it’s important to put Singapore into context.

Although 84% of Singapore residents have been fully vaccinated, most with doses from Pfizer (PFE.N) (https://www.reuters.com/companies/PFE.N)/BioNTech or Moderna (MRNA.O) (https://www.reuters.com/companies/MRNA.O), the vaccines may not protect some of the most vulnerable.

Fully vaccinated people made up about 30% of deaths over the last month, most older than 60 with underlying medical woes, in line with studies (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-doctors-find-severe-covid-19-breakthrough-cases-mostly-older-sicker-2021-08-20) showing that vaccines offer less protection to the old (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/only-very-old-sick-die-covid-if-vaccinated-italian-study-shows-2021-10-20/) and very ill.

The thing that struck me is that the overwhelming majority of the deaths are still those who were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated.

Data from this reuters (https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vaccinated-singapore-shows-zero-covid-countries-cost-reopening-2021-10-22/) article.

[ScepticalOptomist]

It’d be nice if this thread didn’t turn into yet another Covid thread but given we’ve started to go down that road, it’s important to put Singapore into context.



The thing that struck me is that the overwhelming majority of the deaths are still those who were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated.

Data from this reuters (https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vaccinated-singapore-shows-zero-covid-countries-cost-reopening-2021-10-22/) article.

Agree Keg, it baffles me how so many just don’t grok statistics and percentages.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Pub; The problem would be that being fully vaccinated does not fully protect you against getting Covid
, you should have a look at the daily cases from places like Singapore that are a long way in front of us
regarding vaccination rates 82% V 62% (of total population)

We know being fully vaxxed reduces probability of getting virus(data?) & probability of getting very sick(significantly) , but that's all it does

So if USA is getting 100k per day , maybe that equates to 10k per day in California , so perhaps it isn't such a great
time to kick up your heels & say "yeah hah, lets party in Cali" . Because if you become Covid + , you won't be getting on an airplane to come
home anytime soon. & if you get sick your $10K holiday could become a $100K venture

Have you ever thought that maybe there is a reason that Japan, China , Vietnam , Korea , Malaysia , NZ , Taiwan etc etc remain closed to foreign visitors ?

I don't think so many will be voting that UK/USA are the developed countries that handled Covid best

But if you think it is all "Good as Gold" you go for it Tiger ; I really just hope you take any minors along for the ride

Jump in the waters just balmy (https://www.theage.com.au/national/if-overseas-flights-stressed-you-before-welcome-to-post-covid-travel-20211027-p593n9.html)

What is anyone “fully protected from” in this world?

You really are a negative Nancy mate. You do come across in all your posts as someone who’s never happy.

I hope you find something good in your life to make you smile! Life is way too short to be that negative about everything.

Good luck!

[Beer Baron]

Why does everyone call me a pessimist ?
Might be something to do with these brilliant predictions from all of 2 months ago.
If you think you will be going OS in 2022 with the control freaks we have as State Premiers , well I think that is very very optimistic , almost delusional
or this one…
Does anyone seriously believe there will be regular scheduled services to USA/UK in 2023 ? Even more grim in developing Asian countries
Does anyone think the State Premiers will sign off on these kind of numbers? I was hoping for 50% domestic, 25 % international two years in , - no chance of making those numbers now, that is three years in (at best)

Yet now we are 4 days away from quarantine free international travel being available to the majority of Australian population. International flights are selling out over the next 2 months and by January nearly the entire country will be open for international travel. Yet you are still hanging on to months old traffic stats from the middle of our worst outbreak when vaccine coverage was far short of where it is now.

So it is your insistent negative projections in spite of significant positive progress that causes people to call you a pessimist (or worse).

[Keg]

So it is your insistent negative projections in spite of significant positive progress that causes people to call you a pessimist (or worse).

Telfer is on my ignore list so I only see their comments when someone quotes them (and even that’s too much) however the word you’re looking for is ‘troll’.

[Sparrows.]

Back on to topic.

HOBO said on a teams call to SO’s yesterday, they’ve already had meetings to start the process, but recruitment slated to start in March.

[IsDon01]

Back on to topic.

HOBO said on a teams call to SO’s yesterday, they’ve already had meetings to start the process, but recruitment slated to start in March.

To clarify the above from what I just heard on the webinar that just ended.

March 2022 is the date when courses are planning to begin for new hires, presumably those already on the hold file. Good news for all in that position.

[On Guard]

To clarify the above from what I just heard on the webinar that just ended.

March 2022 is the date when courses are planning to begin for new hires, presumably those already on the hold file. Good news for all in that position.

Did they mention numbers?

[SixDemonBag]

I thought I heard the figure of 100, thrown around.

[IsDon01]

I thought I heard the figure of 100, thrown around.

To be honest, I don’t think anyone knows.

Ill put this out there though.

Two years ago we were recruiting at a very high rate. Then covid happened and everything stopped.
Since then we’ve had a reduction in numbers on the 747 and announced that two of the A380s of the 12 we originally had won’t be returning.
To balance that we ran a VR process and by the movement in the seniority numbers of those of us left I reckon about 260 took the package and left.
Recent announcements indicate the A380 will be returning way earlier than anyone predicted and we’ll be taking delivery of the next three 787s as soon as we can get our hands on them.

I’m on the 787 and we’ve been told to expect to be very busy in the short and medium term.

I’ve been involved in numerous reductions in numbers processes personally and the only constant in every one is that Qantas has massively overshot the amount of people they have moved. My very strong suspicion is that they have done the same thing with the recent VR process.

Looking to the short and medium term future is the arrival of three 787s and the A350 is still firmly on the table. In fact I’ve heard from various sources that the point to point flying is even more important post covid given the complexities around borders we’ve all experienced through covid. Flying point to point is vastly more desirable now than it has ever been.

I fully expect that this recruitment announcement will just be the beginning and I expect we will continue to recruit for the foreseeable future in similar numbers we were pre-covid.Tempering that somewhat will be training capacity. The moronic decision to close the Sydney training centre and send simulators to Melbourne and Brisbane will slow things down. Yet another penny wise pound foolish demonstration, as if any more were needed.

Of course any recruitment in Qantas will also have immediate effect on the recruitment of Qlink, Network and JQ as people move to mainline from within the group.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Did they mention numbers?

We will need lots. All the naysayers that said covid would be the end of aviation forgot that it’s just another cycle.

After a boom there’s a bust, and after a bust, there’s a boom. Be ready.

[Green.Dot]

There will not be a need for pilot recruiting in QF for a very very long time. And with commands now running at 18+ years you will be a co-pilot for the majority of your career now.

A quote from 8 days ago. Looks to be ageing well :}

[Callsign Please]

Do the LH crew on the three year secondments around the group need to return before hiring starts, or is that number another gap to fill?

[dr dre]

Do the LH crew on the three year secondments around the group need to return before hiring starts, or is that number another gap to fill?

They don’t need to return before external recruitment starts, and their absence and then planned return is factored into recruitment numbers.

For instance there were pilots on LWOP for all of the 2010-2020 timeframe in various parts of the world, that didn’t stop external recruiting restarting in 2016.

[roundsounds]

To be honest, I don’t think anyone knows.

Ill put this out there though.

Two years ago we were recruiting at a very high rate. Then covid happened and everything stopped.
Since then we’ve had a reduction in numbers on the 747 and announced that two of the A380s of the 12 we originally had won’t be returning.
To balance that we ran a VR process and by the movement in the seniority numbers of those of us left I reckon about 260 took the package and left.
Recent announcements indicate the A380 will be returning way earlier than anyone predicted and we’ll be taking delivery of the next three 787s as soon as we can get our hands on them.

I’m on the 787 and we’ve been told to expect to be very busy in the short and medium term.

I’ve been involved in numerous reductions in numbers processes personally and the only constant in every one is that Qantas has massively overshot the amount of people they have moved. My very strong suspicion is that they have done the same thing with the recent VR process.

Looking to the short and medium term future is the arrival of three 787s and the A350 is still firmly on the table. In fact I’ve heard from various sources that the point to point flying is even more important post covid given the complexities around borders we’ve all experienced through covid. Flying point to point is vastly more desirable now than it has ever been.

I fully expect that this recruitment announcement will just be the beginning and I expect we will continue to recruit for the foreseeable future in similar numbers we were pre-covid.Tempering that somewhat will be training capacity. The moronic decision to close the Sydney training centre and send simulators to Melbourne and Brisbane will slow things down. Yet another penny wise pound foolish demonstration, as if any more were needed.

Of course any recruitment in Qantas will also have immediate effect on the recruitment of Qlink, Network and JQ as people move to mainline from within the group.

Not only has the Sydney training centre been closed, all Sydney simulator instructors have been made redundant.

[Chris2303]

Not only has the Sydney training centre been closed, all Sydney simulator instructors have been made redundant.

That could turn out to be a very expensive mistake

[IsDon01]

Not only has the Sydney training centre been closed, all Sydney simulator instructors have been made redundant.

Yep. And the crazy thing is the new simulator and training centre in Sydney was already half completed. Rather than finish it, and avoid all of the complications we are now facing, the decision was made to abandon the project. Presumably with associated contract break costs.

[Bumble_Pilot]

I’m wanting a mainline SO role. Wondering, if I applied for qlink will that stop me from getting an interview for mainline?
if I did go qlink, what are the times/chances of an internal transfer?

[DashTrash.]

Internally will only help if you are the fairer sex if you catch my drift. Personally, it took me 9 years of being “in the group” before I was allowed to take a demotion to go to mainline. In that time I’ve had friends leave the group only to return and jump the hold file, whilst I accept that’s part of the game. I do warn youngsters going down the same path that Q does not reward/value loyalty what so ever.

[Brakerider]

I’m wanting a mainline SO role. Wondering, if I applied for qlink will that stop me from getting an interview for mainline?
if I did go qlink, what are the times/chances of an internal transfer?

depends where you want to be when the music stops. Qlink is a great place to be stuck, as is anywhere in the group.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Personally, it took me 9 years of being “in the group” before I was allowed to take a demotion to go to mainline.

Mate, everyone took a demotion to join an airline (apart from the cadets). Best damn demotion I ever had! :ok:

[ScepticalOptomist]

I’m wanting a mainline SO role. Wondering, if I applied for qlink will that stop me from getting an interview for mainline?
if I did go qlink, what are the times/chances of an internal transfer?

Take whatever comes up first. When the music stops, you will have a great job in the group somewhere. Some jobs are better than others, but they’re all awesome fun and well remunerated. Get amongst it while you can!

[Jetdream]

Are they maintaining the hold file from 2018 or will they start over from scratch?

[Going Nowhere]

For Eastern and Sunstate at least, there is no contract that states a return of service once you join. Some went to mainline in just over 12 months, others took much longer. There were plenty of intakes that had a lot more than 2 former QLink crew. Usually it was at least double that.

There is no way to say exactly if being in the group helps your chances or not. Make your choices based on what matters to you. Most AOC’s in the group would offer a pretty good place to hang out while you applied to mainline. You’ll also get the benefit of exposure to QF Group SOP’s and C&T. Keeping your nose clean in that regard goes a long way in where you ‘rank’ on the hold file.

You can either try your luck in the smaller internal pool or the much bigger external one. One isn’t exactly better or worse than the other.

[muffman]

I’m wanting a mainline SO role. Wondering, if I applied for qlink will that stop me from getting an interview for mainline?
if I did go qlink, what are the times/chances of an internal transfer?

Depends on your experience levels and how competitive you think you'd be with QF recruitment. If you have airline or comparable experience, maybe direct into QF makes more sense. Most SOs I know have had some sort of airline experience (or military) before Qantas. If you're coming out of GA you could roll the dice on waiting for mainline and may well get lucky. But personally, I'd be getting into the group wherever you can. The days of QLink being a dead end are gone, but I'd rather be in the group somewhere when the music stops.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Depends on your experience levels and how competitive you think you'd be with QF recruitment. If you have airline or comparable experience, maybe direct into QF makes more sense. Most SOs I know have had some sort of airline experience (or military) before Qantas. If you're coming out of GA you could roll the dice on waiting for mainline and may well get lucky. But personally, I'd be getting into the group wherever you can. The days of QLink being a dead end are gone, but I'd rather be in the group somewhere when the music stops.

I do have airline experience. But by the sounds of it, mainline could hire tomorrow off the street or take ages getting through the old file.
I think I’m best to go for QLink whilst it’s open, defiantly still an enjoyable gig for me just SO lifestyle is what I’m all about.
thanks everyone for your input.

[Keg]

…just SO lifestyle is what I’m all about.

You should definitely say that at your mainline interview! :ugh:

[gordonfvckingramsay]

just SO lifestyle is what I’m all about.

What does that even mean?

[Bumble_Pilot]

I like to live regional, commuting is easier with plenty of days off in between trips. Can have a holiday with your days off instead of waiting for crap times to use annual leave.
I wouldn’t mind QLink it’s just not viable long term for the lifestyle I enjoy. If you get past the pilot ego, an SO can be a very enjoyable job with a great work/life balance.

[dr dre]

What does that even mean?

No sitting in a control seat below FL200. No full type rating on the aircraft, co-pilot IR. Only rostered for LH flights so generally less sectors than a Capt/FO depending on type.

Given all 380s should will be back within time there’ll be plenty of opportunities to get promoted onto that aircraft or recruited directly onto it. If so the salary can be quite lucrative, comparable to 330 or 787 FO and with some ability to control rosters well if senior.

For those who don’t mind not sitting in a control seat remaining an SO for the long term can be quite a tempting prospect. Hence why the seniority of a lot of SOs is senior to other LH types as FO or even SH Capt.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

No sitting in a control seat below FL200. No full type rating on the aircraft, co-pilot IR. Only rostered for LH flights so generally less sectors than a Capt/FO depending on type.

Given all 380s should will be back within time there’ll be plenty of opportunities to get promoted onto that aircraft or recruited directly onto it. If so the salary can be quite lucrative, comparable to 330 or 787 FO and with some ability to control rosters well if senior.

For those who don’t mind not sitting in a control seat remaining an SO for the long term can be quite a tempting prospect. Hence why the seniority of a lot of SOs is senior to other LH types as FO or even SH Capt.

I know what the SO role entails but the attitude that that is all one would aspire to is a bit odd and certainly isn’t what an airline is seeking. However reading the rationale, I must admit aspiring to an SO position based on work/life balance actually sounds very fair, especially when airline management views us as a commodity or a consumable. Maybe this is the beginning of the wave where the career is seen by many of us as a road to ruin.

All the best mate!

[Bumble_Pilot]

I think people are getting me wrong. I’d take a international captain gig on the 380 at mainline. However everyone starts as an SO (or changes after start) I want international for the lifestyle, not just an SO. I would possibly be happy to sit for a long time as an S9 whilst waiting for a LH FO slot or my circumstances change.
my original question was (before everyone changed it into something bigger like always on pprune)
And I’ll make it a bit more clearer.
I am ok with a qlink position. However, I would be a lot happier at mainline as an SO. If I have applied, on the hold file or take a start date at qlink. How much does each position stop a chance for mainline?

[Brakerider]

I think people are getting me wrong. I’d take a international captain gig on the 380 at mainline. However everyone starts as an SO (or changes after start) I want international for the lifestyle, not just an SO. I would possibly be happy to sit for a long time as an S9 whilst waiting for a LH FO slot or my circumstances change.
my original question was (before everyone changed it into something bigger like always on pprune)
And I’ll make it a bit more clearer.
I am ok with a qlink position. However, I would be a lot happier at mainline as an SO. If I have applied, on the hold file or take a start date at qlink. How much does each position stop a chance for mainline?

You're asking a question that nobody has a true answer for. The only real answer I can provide, is that as a QF Group employee, even if you interview successfully and are added to the hold file, your start date at the new entity is entirely controlled by your current AOC and their willingness to release you. As previously mentioned, this has nothing to do with loyalty, but more your usefulness to the AOC. Eg. you are a Training Captain, Sim Instructor or flying a fleet in a base below establishment numbers, you will most likely be held back until a suitable time for the company (which could be months, years or never - yes, it's happened.)

[das Uber Soldat]

Well, it begins. Got an email this morning asking me to confirm I still want a job as an SO at Quantas.

[cLeArIcE]

Well, it begins. Got an email this morning asking me to confirm I still want a job as an SO at Quantas.

Did quantas also ask for your driver licence number and credit card details? :}
Good to hear. Hopefully the worst of all this is behind us.

[Chris2303]

Well, it begins. Got an email this morning asking me to confirm I still want a job as an SO at Quantas.

If you seriously want to work for them you need to know how to spell your employer's name!

[das Uber Soldat]

If you seriously want to work for them you need to know how to spell your employer's name!
Its amazing how well that bait works. Precious, precious quantas pilots. :E

[ScepticalOptomist]

Well, it begins. Got an email this morning asking me to confirm I still want a job as an SO at Quantas.

Surely you wouldn’t leave to go join QF? Your posts on here tended to be pro the other team.

[Lookleft]

Surely you wouldn’t leave to go join QF? Your posts on here tended to be pro the other team.

What has his sexual preference got to do with it?

[Street garbage]

Surely you wouldn’t leave to go join QF? Your posts on here tended to be pro the other team.

He wouldn't join Mainline, it would be beneath him to do so...

[Chad Gates]

Why does it make you precious to ask someone to spell something properly? What a bizarre statement😕

[The Shovel]

Surely you wouldn’t leave to go join QF? Your posts on here tended to be pro the other team.

that will change when it suits him. He spent years bagging JQ and the pilot group as a blight on the industry. All while flying a C152 in the circuit at Bankstown. But when he got a job there……. Like any good hypocrite, he has deleted his past posts in an attempt to hide from his past.

The Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services pilots can be precious.

[Potatos_69]

Any idea on if JQ will be looking for bus drivers late 22 early 23? Or will they have enough already from pre covid hire pools?

[SHVC]

If the end of last yr was anything to go by, it will sooner rather than later.

[das Uber Soldat]

that will change when it suits him. He spent years bagging JQ and the pilot group as a blight on the industry. All while flying a C152 in the circuit at Bankstown. But when he got a job there……. Like any good hypocrite, he has deleted his past posts in an attempt to hide from his past..
I'll take 'things that never happened for $300 thanks Alex'.

:rolleyes:

I don't think I've ever deleted a post on this muppet site and am happy to have the admins confirm that fact.

And what's wrong with flying a C152 around the circuit in Bankstown?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Or will they have enough already from pre covid hire pools?

They (QF & JQ) think they do.

[The Shovel]

You might be right.

Put **** on Qantas Link when you werent selected for a job there with 1,000hrs in the Bankstown circuit.
Put **** on JQ for introducing a Cadet program, instead of hiring you. Then applied for the Cadet program.
Put **** on any JQ pilot who paid for their endorsement, instead of staying in the Bankstwon circuit like you
Then joins Jetstar.

Nothing is wrong with flying a C152 in the circuit, there is with your attitude.

[Derfred]

I don't think I've ever deleted a post on this muppet site and am happy to have the admins confirm that

Maybe you should have.

It only becomes a muppet site when people make muppet posts.

[das Uber Soldat]

You might be right.

Put **** on Qantas Link when you werent selected for a job there with 1,000hrs in the Bankstown circuit.
Put **** on JQ for introducing a Cadet program, instead of hiring you. Then applied for the Cadet program.
Put **** on any JQ pilot who paid for their endorsement, instead of staying in the Bankstwon circuit like you
Then joins Jetstar.

Nothing is wrong with flying a C152 in the circuit, there is with your attitude.

Ah, nope?

Looks like you've got me confused for someone else kiddo.

[Capt Fathom]

Looks like you've got me confused for someone else kiddo.

Do you have a twin brother?

[das Uber Soldat]

Do you have a twin brother?
Must have! Maybe he's the one deleting all of these posts I never made to 'cover my tracks' :rolleyes:

Might be time to get back on topic eh, as thrilling as all this has been for all I'm sure.

​​​​​


​​​

[The Shovel]

Must have! Maybe he's the one deleting all of these posts I never made to 'cover my tracks' :rolleyes:​​​​​


​​​

to quote yourself, your a moron. You posted about being put on the hold file at Qantas Link. You posted you applied for the Cadetship at Jetstar after questioning why they needed one. You put **** on JQ, REX cadetships and VA S/O positions. So, 4 for 4.

To get you back in touch with reality, I had my endorsement paid for by the airline. I was on the full F/O wage from the start, and now we are either Captains or eligible for Command. Some of us are even your Captain.

As for being on topic, your dig a Qantas pilots had nothing to do with the topic. Grow up you child.

[das Uber Soldat]

your a moron
I enjoyed this bit the most. :E

[CompleteElite]

This 'debate' is making me chuckle inside. I have no background on the issue at hand, but I am amused. Please, continue *grabs popcorn*

[das Uber Soldat]

This 'debate' is making me chuckle inside.
You and me both.

So, quick summary then. Worlds saltiest JQ Cadet holds a grudge over comments supposedly made something like fourteen years ago (surely a pprune record), proceeds to entirely throw the toys out of the pram after having his precious mainline position not treated with the complete deference he thinks it deserves. Hilarity ensues.

I think its becoming more and more evident why old mate triggered so badly, as we sit here in a Qantas recruitment thread. Did you get the try again in 12 months letter Shovel? Is that who hurt you mate?

had my endorsement paid for by the airline. I was on the full F/O wage from the start
Is that a fact? And you didn't stay on year 1 of the FO payscale for 4 years as per the EBA instead? Because if you did, then sunshine, the airline didn't pay for your endorsement. You did, and then some.

I like this guy, he's fun.

[volare_737]

Hi all. If anybody has done the Qantas online testing lately any info would be great. Is it just Verbal and mathematical reasoning or is there more involved ?

[ninoongleo]

Hello! If I may ask, is it possible that Australian Airlines might be accepting foreign pilots? Do they provide sponsorship? Thanks for the answer

[morno]

Hello! If I may ask, is it possible that Australian Airlines might be accepting foreign pilots? Do they provide sponsorship? Thanks for the answer

Only if you have the right to live and work in Australia. They shouldn’t (and I don’t believe will) provide sponsorship because we are in no way short of qualified pilots.

[bluesk1es]

Any further news on the hold file re-establishment for 2022? Any courses planned / offers sent out yet for those who responded to the EOI?

[Conductor]

Recruitment to restart in Feb, some pilots on hold file have already been contacted.

[mohikan]

Recruitment to restart in Feb, some pilots on hold file have already been contacted.

Yet there are over 200 mainline pilots still one leave without pay. B747 RIN not complete. Most of the A380 pilots still stood down. No orders of new aircraft. Massive amounts of flying palmed off to Network and Cobham.

Strange how there is a rumour about recruiting..... I am calling BS.

And then there is the new variant out of South Africa. Already the public is screaming for border closures and lockdowns to start again.

[engine out]

Most of the pilots on LWOP were offered the chance to come back but declined. 78 training is at max capacity and divisor is about to be at max. Yes recruitment is planning to start early next year.

[Keg]

Every 787 flight is planned to have two S/Os. They have 150+ Captains and F/Os on the fleet once the current training vacancies are filled. This would logically mean they need close to 300 S/Os. They currently have less than 180 and that includes those currently on LWOP.

The A330 fleet now has it’s pre Covid number of S/Os. It’s long haul flying is scheduled to increase post Covid indicating an increased demand of S/Os on that fleet also.

Of course all this presumes the new variant isn’t the big deal it’s currently being made out to be.

[mohikan]

I spoke to 3 LWOP pilots in the last 90 minutes.

None of them have had any contact from the company offering them re-employment. Quite the opposite actually - two of them told me the last email they got in mid-October said we will get in touch with you in 2024.

So, why just throw these pilots in the bin ? Maybe better to hire new ones who will be more compliant with the upcoming contract cuts or subscribing to the cult of keg (or cult of Alan)..

And you can just about guarantee that regardless of if the new variant is 'bad' or not, the state premiers will use it to score points and further decimate the airline industry in Australia.

[C441]

And you can just about guarantee that regardless of if the new variant is 'bad' or not, the state premiers will use it to score points and further decimate the airline industry in Australia.
Especially in the lead up to the federal election. It's already started in Queensland.

[SHVC]

And then there is the new variant out of South Africa. Already the public is screaming for border closures and lockdowns to start again.

No they’re not! No one is screaming to close up and do lockdowns again in Australia.

Domestic borders will not close again public are fed up with it and 72.4% and increasing of the population have done what was asked. No state gov would be able to justify it.

I would not rule out an international border closure again tho, I would expect a press conference from the PM in the coming days updating the country on this new variant and possible impact it may have on Australia.

[Beer Baron]

I spoke to 3 LWOP pilots in the last 90 minutes.

None of them have had any contact from the company offering them re-employment. Quite the opposite actually - two of them told me the last email they got in mid-October said we will get in touch with you in 2024.
We’ll I’ve already flown with S/O’s who’ve come back from LWOP early and have a good friend who has done similar on the 380.

The Head of Base Ops emailed all pilots in October saying that 787 S/O’s on LWOP will be coming back in December (unless PER based) and 330 S/O’s in Jan. There may be exceptions for guys who took contracts at Group airlines as I believe there were some minimum commitments as part of those opportunities.

I’d suggest the 3 pilots you spoke to may need to be a bit more proactive if they actually want to come back sooner, or possibly they don’t and that is why QF will start recruiting.

[das Uber Soldat]

Yet there are over 200 mainline pilots still one leave without pay. B747 RIN not complete. Most of the A380 pilots still stood down. No orders of new aircraft. Massive amounts of flying palmed off to Network and Cobham.

Strange how there is a rumour about recruiting..... I am calling BS.

And then there is the new variant out of South Africa. Already the public is screaming for border closures and lockdowns to start again.
Is not bs. Have been directly contacted ask if I still wanted a position there. They are clearly firing up the recruitment process soon.

[Keg]

If there is something wrong with my numbers mohikan? Feel free to correct them. I note that you did not.

Though at least you’re consistent. The one thing I’ve learned over the years is that I can always count on you to go personal instead of discussing the subject matter at hand.

[ThunderstormFactory]

Will Qantas ever hire directly onto their 737s? Or do they always have enough supply from their SO ranks?

[dr dre]

Will Qantas ever hire directly onto their 737s? Or do they always have enough supply from their SO ranks?

Last time around new hire SOs were told 737 slots in some bases would be available immediately upon joining the company during the application process. When they started employment they were told to bid for the 737, and then were awarded slots straight away, so they never did any training for their assigned SO aircraft.

There’s a legal/industrial thing with the award preventing direct hire FO at the moment, but that process works in practice to basically make it so.

Feedback from trainers was pretty much all of these quasi direct entry FOs had substantial jet or heavy turboprop experience immediately prior to joining, so training them to RHS on a 737 was much easier than a 10-20 year SO.

[Gazza mate]

It’s a good thing Australia and QF in particular are immune from pilot shortages. In the US, United just had 133 unfilled command positions in their latest vacancy bid.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1334/d04a8a9f_8595_4cac_813d_1ee3d89bbba7_1c9df9ddcc5a002747ef314 49a61391a97350a4d.png

[High_To_Low]

QANTAS Second Officer Applications are open as of today for internals. Closes Sunday 6th March.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE

[Fujiroll76]

QANTAS Second Officer Applications are open as of today for internals. Closes Sunday 6th March.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE


Let the battles begin and the games from HR commence.

Good luck all

[Low Pass]

Airnz opened Regional also. Pilot shortage bring it onnnnnnnnn, Balls back in our court friends

[Ladloy]

Any word on externals?

[Brakerider]

Any word on externals?

apparently a new policy, to not take more than 1 employee per company per ground school

[neville_nobody]

apparently a new policy, to not take more than 1 employee per company per ground school

Looks like the old adage that you work for the Regional of the opposition still holds true. If you enter a group regional your whole career is now controlled by the airline.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Any idea how the cadets that did their training in Toowoomba will come into the mix? External? Internal? Used as back-fill for the subsidiaries that lose crew to mainline?

[aussieflyboy]

Any idea how the cadets that did their training in Toowoomba will come into the mix? External? Internal? Used as back-fill for the subsidiaries that lose crew to mainline?

Ideally they will be offered positions at Hardys/Aviair/Hinterland ect. for a fixed 5-7 year contract enabling them to gain invaluable piloting skills before being offered a position with a high capacity airline…

[BravoSierraLima]

I don't think the current version of the cadet scheme is anywhere near the same as the old version, which included industry placement. The current one seems like a fast food franchise (operations conducted by a third party but with visits from head shed to keep an eye on things, some mentoring and to validate the logo on the front door). Two graduates were in a recent QLink intake of Dash 8 FOs.

[dr dre]

Ideally they will be offered positions at Hardys/Aviair/Hinterland ect. for a fixed 5-7 year contract enabling them to gain invaluable piloting skills before being offered a position with a high capacity airline…

Which would defeat the entire purpose of a cadetship so it's not going to happen.

[Derfred]

Which would defeat the entire purpose of a cadetship so it's not going to happen.

Qantas used to run cadetships. This is not one.

[cLeArIcE]

apparently a new policy, to not take more than 1 employee per company per ground school
I always wondered how that would work. Not surprised if true. I can imagine the sheer numbers from within the group. You'd think nearly all of Qlink, All JQ FO's (maybe even some younger captain's if they are sick of the bull**** at that place) and a big percentage of EFA too. Hell, if you are in the lower half of the seniority list at VA you would too.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Looks like Jetstar have opened their cadetship again as well. Things are starting to move!

[dusty99]

It’s always been tricky moving from a group airline to mainline, especially when there is a current or forecast shortage of pilots for regionals and Low Cost Carriers.

The best advice one of my instructors gave me was to avoid group airlines if I wanted a mainline job. Worked a treat.

That's not that entirely true anymore Gazza. I know many that have gone through the group.
Most likely it will be only way into mainline soon using group airlines as feeders to mainline that way retaining their people for longer. I heard that it is their plan to make that happen 🤷‍♂️.

[megan]

Something I've always pondered. Visited Tamworth when QF cadets were going through and was told a story by management about two lads raised in Sydney who were given placement with a Darwin operator. Lads refused because no social life to be had, hick town etc etc Never thought to ask at the time, but would they have crueled their QF career?

[dr dre]

Something I've always pondered. Visited Tamworth when QF cadets were going through and was told a story by management about two lads raised in Sydney who were given placement with a Darwin operator. Lads refused because no social life to be had, hick town etc etc Never thought to ask at the time, but would they have crueled their QF career?

That's a myth

[Gazza mate]

Back on topic, rumour is external recruitment to begin very soon.

[Johnny_56]

Might be a good time to get a Saab job over the next year or so…

[Ladloy]

Might be a good time to get a Saab job over the next year or so…
There will be plenty available regardless of how many Qantas take.

[Low Pass]

and we Open to externals.....Hows that EBA going REX????

[chimbu warrior]

https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Qantas_Careers/job/Perth/Qantas-Second-Officer_R78496

Open to all now

[Bones13]

So how many have applied so far? 😅

[kjvmw]

Does participation in a training and checking programme, satisfy qantas requirement for a current IPC?

[dr dre]

Does participation in a training and checking programme, satisfy qantas requirement for a current IPC?

Contact Recruiting for a definitive answer, but given the majority of previous recruits came directly from existing multi crew jet and turboprop operators under cyclic training programs then the answer should be yes.

This is backed up by CASA (https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certificates/pilots/ratings-reviews-and-endorsements/flight-reviews-and-proficiency-checks/getting-instrument-proficiency-check):There are 4 other ways to have a valid IPC. These are:

pass the instrument rating flight test within the previous 12 months
pass a flight test for an instrument endorsement that you did more than 6 months after the initial instrument rating flight test
complete an operator proficiency check that covers IFR operations conducted by a flight examiner
take part in a training and checking system conducted by an operator who has a 61.040 approval.

You must carry out these options in the relevant aircraft.

[aussieflyboy]

Apparently QF recruitment have found over 50% of their hold file is no longer interested. Many have gained regional Jet commands (Network/Alliance/NJS ect.) and feel QF International is too risky of a job.

[aseriesofleftturns]

Apparently QF recruitment have found over 50% of their hold file is no longer interested. Many have gained regional Jet commands (Network/Alliance/NJS ect.) and feel QF International is too risky of a job.

According to who?

[dr dre]

Apparently QF recruitment have found over 50% of their hold file is no longer interested. Many have gained regional Jet commands (Network/Alliance/NJS ect.) and feel QF International is too risky of a job.

Bunkum

1. I know first hand there are dozens of pilots at one of those entities on the hold file for mainline or who want to be in mainline.

2. Few jet commands were to be gained in the last two years, certainly not over half of the hold file.

3. Plenty had jet commands but gave them up to get into mainline pre Pandemic.

4. A blind dog can see international is on the way back. They haven’t just restarted external recruitment for fun.

5. Plenty of internal interest for long haul commands, so the ones at the coal face don’t think it’s too risky.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Apparently QF recruitment have found over 50% of their hold file is no longer interested. Many have gained regional Jet commands (Network/Alliance/NJS ect.) and feel QF International is too risky of a job.

I would say the opposite is true. I know of one of the operators you mentioned where a bunch of guys are on the hold file and would jump at the chance to join mainline, the ones who aren’t on the hold file are madly filling in the application. Many have jet commands and are still desperate to get out citing a list of reasons, not least of which is the piss poor management they currently languish under.

[Roj approved]

citing a list of reasons, not least of which is the piss poor management they currently languish under.

Going to mainline won’t protect them from “piss poor management”, that is the modern style across the group and all industries

[hotnhigh]

Plenty to offer…Don’t forget to ask the time to command at the interview. Better still, if you see Alan, ask him, he’s a stats man.

[aussieflyboy]

A Cobham Captain pilot gave me the run down why he turned down mainline and it made a lot of sene:

Currently on ~210K per year in a lifestyle friendly job.
He estimated it’d take 22 years to make more then that at mainline and he would have to relocate multiple times.
When you consider on average every 10 years QF seems to make people redundant or reduces hours due to some sort of global event and the extra interest/extra loans ect over that period, he calculated (roughly) he’d be lucky to break even at retirement and he was only early-mid thirties.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

A Cobham Captain pilot gave me the run down why he turned down mainline and it made a lot of sene:

Currently on ~210K per year in a lifestyle friendly job.
He estimated it’d take 22 years to make more then that at mainline and he would have to relocate multiple times.
When you consider on average every 10 years QF seems to make people redundant or reduces hours due to some sort of global event and the extra interest/extra loans ect over that period, he calculated (roughly) he’d be lucky to break even at retirement and he was only early-mid thirties.

I guess that's fair enough based on his/her assumptions. Everyone is entitled to their view and decision making.
I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that 50% of the QF hold file has declined a job offer based on the testimony of 1 Cobham pilot though.

[aussieflyboy]

I guess that's fair enough based on his/her assumptions. Everyone is entitled to their view and decision making.
I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that 50% of the QF hold file has declined a job offer based on the testimony of 1 Cobham pilot though.

He had some sort of re-interview with people from recruitment and he asked them how long would the wait be if he was still interested and the recruitment team told him not long due to 50% of hold file dropping out/being unavailable.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Understood. Being unavailable doesn't mean they aren't interested, as stated. The chatter is there are not many in that catagory. Carry on.

[Brakerider]

I can speak of a few who have also changed their mind. Lots of circumstances have changed since those pilots applied in 2018. 50% seems like a stretch though.

[Ollie Onion]

I have a colleague who had a start date with Qantas and was delayed due to covid, they just had notification of a start date next month but have declined the position as now they have a Command upgrade just starting. Things change in 2 years.

[dr dre]

A Cobham Captain pilot gave me the run down why he turned down mainline and it made a lot of sene:

Currently on ~210K per year in a lifestyle friendly job.
He estimated it’d take 22 years to make more then that at mainline and he would have to relocate multiple times.

No. That’s SH FO pay in normal times and not long at all to that point, straight away for some bases and a few years at most for all bases. You wouldn’t have to relocate at all with 5 bases for the 5 main cities. Time to LH will be less now, if you take out the gaps in recruiting (09-16 and 20-22) it’s looking like around 4-6 years worth of constant recruitment and you’ll get a LH FO slot. Note that’s with constant recruitment not overall time in company. By all measures wait times will be coming down.

Commuting is possible for most long haul types/bases. Lifestyle friendly? Well that’s up to the individual, plenty more options available in mainline though.

When you consider on average every 10 years QF seems to make people redundant or reduces hours

They haven’t made a pilot compulsorily redundant since 1971 (https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-843193417/view?sectionId=nla.obj-1102464153&partId=nla.obj-844382413#page/n15/mode/1up).

Usually a VR program is followed by a mass amount of training, hundreds of slots available in the next year or so to only bring back a few 380s, not to mention the additional 787s to come, and then the 350s and A321 in 2 years time.

due to some sort of global event and the extra interest/extra loans ect over that period, he calculated (roughly) he’d be lucky to break even at retirement and he was only early-mid thirties.

I think his sums are off. Possibly if you were later in your career, but if you’re in your early to mid 30s looking at an an additional 30-35 years in the workforce you’d definitely be better off joining up.

I have a colleague who had a start date with Qantas and was delayed due to covid, they just had notification of a start date next month but have declined the position as now they have a Command upgrade just starting. Things change in 2 years.

I know a few who’ve already had a command upgrade in another entity in the last two years, but are counting down the days to get out!

[dr dre]

I can speak of a few who have also changed their mind. Lots of circumstances have changed since those pilots applied in 2018.

No doubt some have changed their minds, it can feel quite safe to be in an operator that has had steady work over the last two years and quite daunting to move to an operator which mostly hasn’t, at least in the international sphere.

But an aviation career is always about making a move just at the start of the “right time”, not when it’s obvious and every person and their dog is trying to get a job. Given the future trends, the aircraft on order and if the need for pilots with planned flying for the next few years is correct, then substantial mainline recruitment will be needed, and that’s without factoring the upcoming purchases like the A321 and A350.

So whilst today a pilot may feel more comfortable in the safety of the regional, they might find in a year or so that the better prospect would be to come over. However by reapplying in a year or so they’ll be a few hundred numbers down the seniority list.

[volare_737]

I count myself lucky that I am at the end of my flying career, but I know one thing. If you can get any change to get in to a major airline, take it !!! There is not question about it !!!

[KAPAC]

A secure job in a Qantas owned subsidiary is only as secure as it’s usefulness to Qantas .

[Lezzeno]

Usually a VR program is followed by a mass amount of training, hundreds of slots available in the next year or so to only bring back a few 380s, not to mention the additional 787s to come, and then the 350s and A321 in 2 years time.

Really? Exactly how many 350s and A321 have been ordered for 2 years time?

[dr dre]

Really? Exactly how many 350s and A321 have been ordered for 2 years time?
​​​​​​
Those waiting for a confirmed order for those aircraft before submitting an application for employment will be well down the list when they arrive.

[Lezzeno]

Those waiting for a confirmed order for those aircraft before submitting an application for employment will be well down the list when they arrive.

Care to answer the question?

Exactly how many 350s and A321 have been ordered for 2 years time?

[Derfred]

A Cobham Captain pilot gave me the run down why he turned down mainline and it made a lot of sene:

Currently on ~210K per year in a lifestyle friendly job.
He estimated it’d take 22 years to make more then that at mainline and he would have to relocate multiple times.
When you consider on average every 10 years QF seems to make people redundant or reduces hours due to some sort of global event and the extra interest/extra loans ect over that period, he calculated (roughly) he’d be lucky to break even at retirement and he was only early-mid thirties.

Sorry to be pedantic, but are you referring to the ex-Cobham B717 National Jet now QF-subsidiary, or actually Cobham - who I believe only operate jets these days as FIFO E190’s and AMSA Challengers?

Each to their own - however, as others have pointed out, a B737 F/O gig has not been a long wait in recent years. For some pilots a jet command is everything - and would be very reluctant to trade it for anything that involved considerable RHS or relief pilot time.

QF’s expansion of subsidiaries at the expense of mainline promotion has become a predictable playlist over the past 20 years and doesn’t show any signs of abating. QF mainline Command is a very long wait compared to just about any other jet operation in the country, particularly if joining at mid-thirties. Some pilots who have joined QF in the past 20 years in their late thirties to early forties have had to resign themselves to the possibility of never getting a QF B737 Command in their base of choice.

Some people want a Command, some want LH widebody lifestyle, some just want $$$. Some want all 3, and some care not for any of the above.

And anyone trying to predict the future obviously hasn’t been paying enough attention!

Your mate may have just made the best decision of his life - or it may turn out not to have been. I just hope he didn’t make the decision based on poor information or rumours. For example, the redundancy comment.

[Potatos_69]

So I’m currently working in EASA land and in the process of converting my license back to a CASA ATPL…

I meet all requirements for the QF SO gig except having the Aussie ATPL (I have the CPL and MECIR just didn’t want to do 7 Aussie ATPL before I did the marathon 14 EASA ones)

Will the application just get binned by software because it doesn’t meet the requirement? I’m currently flying Airbus regularly, just back on holiday and to get the 2 exams done while I wait for the long slow CASA paperwork trail to do it’s thing…

Regards,

[dr dre]

Care to answer the question?

That order will be made later in the year. Roughly around 10 A350s, along with the announced 20 A321s. The Winton SH replacement project will run for 12 years so more A320/321 aircraft will be progressively introduced over that decade.

Now if you're waiting for firm orders to be made before jumping ship from a "secure" job you'll just start further down the list when you do apply. A group of new hire SOs has already started last month, and more every month now indefinitely. Wait until a confirmed order of new aircraft is made, and you'll be dozens, maybe even hundreds of places further down the list. However if you make an intelligent guess about what's going to happen (ie a lot of recruitment planned from now into the future) you can see they've got plans, and aren't just recruiting people for fun.

[Lezzeno]

So the exact number of current orders is........................................?

[Sparrows.]

A group of new hire SOs has already started last month, and more every month now indefinitely.

Not totally true. That was the plan until the next two courses got cancelled, due to the clogged pipe that is the training department……

Who knows after the two cancelled courses. Might be even more canceled due to a rumored record NTFS for this training year. Or just lots of outsourced training, but good luck with that given how much training is going on in the US, they’ve probably locked in training all over the world.

[Icarus2001]

Lezzeno, it is a very round number.

[WillieTheWimp]

Basing a major career decision on the last 2 years and being influenced by which group fared best would be a big mistake. Having pandemics on the scale of Covid-19 is NOT the new normal. I will be surprised if we see something similar to this again in our lifetimes/careers. Remaining at National Jet would carry as much risk as moving to QF mainline. For example, the B717 is being retired, and there's no guarantee that the A220 will replace it. NJS's fate will ride on the negotiations and if an agreement is reached, otherwise known as 'Alan has you by the short and curlies'. The truth is no one has any idea how things will play out. Some will make the right decisions, some will not, but such is life.

[717tech]

Basing a major career decision on the last 2 years and being influenced by which group fared best would be a big mistake. Having pandemics on the scale of Covid-19 is NOT the new normal. I will be surprised if we see something similar to this again in our lifetimes/careers. Remaining at National Jet would carry as much risk as moving to QF mainline. For example, the B717 is being retired, and there's no guarantee that the A220 will replace it. NJS's fate will ride on the negotiations and if an agreement is reached, otherwise known as 'Alan has you by the short and curlies'. The truth is no one has any idea how things will play out. Some will make the right decisions, some will not, but such is life.

It may as simple, to some, as observing how the Airlines were impacted during the last two years. Airline pilots were working at Hardware Shops and Auspost, while the Regional world (FIFO) continued on almost "Ops Normal". So I can very much appreciate how making the move would be a difficult decision. Yes, it's unlikely to happen again in our life times, but we now know how the Aus Gov react and what it means for us.

[SandyPalms]

Gaining a command in this business is personally very important, but remember there is so much more to life than sitting on the left hand seat.

I make no judgement on peoples decisions. All I know is what I would do.

[SHVC]

I wonder if AU airlines are thinking they will struggle in the near further as things ramp up. AJ offering shares to eligible employees as retention bonus, VA doing a spread on ACA tonight need employees from Pilots to gate staff. JQ will need crew to cover the LR arriving from July. Already looking like a pilots market again and China hasn’t even come knocking yet.

[Telfer86]

Just keep in mind that the QF pilots voted in a B scale for new SOs back in 2020
So on the Airbus you will top out at 65% of current top Airbus hourly rate
Say its all good , well you might feel different if as a 12 year SO you make 200 versus other SO on the trip who makes 300k

[Derfred]

Just keep in mind that the QF pilots voted in a B scale for new SOs back in 2020
So on the Airbus you will top out at 65% of current top Airbus hourly rate
Say its all good , well you might feel different if as a 12 year SO you make 200 versus other SO on the trip who makes 300k

Welcome back, Telfer. What have you been up to whilst on LWOP? I’m guessing you made a lot of money as an industrial advocate.

Thank you for persuading all the S/O’s to take LWOP. If it hadn’t have been for you, so many S/O’s would have joined the long list of compulsory redundancies.

I’m very happy for you that you are back on $300K, and I really feel for the jealous $200K S/O’s who are flying and drinking with you. Perhaps if you bought them a beer and shared your remarkable insights with them they would forgive the salary inequity, and look up to you as a true aviation industry industrial mentor.

If you buy them a nip of single malt they might even vote for your next tilt at AIPA President.

We really have to fix this $200K S/O problem, otherwise we might be getting the wrong people in the job.

[Chris2303]

I wonder how many pilots who left or were otherwise not working as pilots will be coming back?

How many have found driving trains or trucks a much better option?

[C441]

I wonder how many pilots who left or were otherwise not working as pilots will be coming back?
Not many. A few who are well established in other employment have asked to have their training deferred - something the airline are happy with as they cant train everyone at once and there's far more wanting to start now than defer. One I know of, bought an excavator and established a successful business for the last 18 months and loved being home with family every night, but that doesn't pay the bills quite as comfortably and thus he took the first opportunity to re-train and get back to flying.

A few who retired or resigned are still in the industry flying corporate aircraft and other GA flying.

How many have found driving trains or trucks a much better option?
None that I know of and I know of at least a dozen. Some are doing a little casual driving as their flying rosters are fairly 'relaxed'.

[Transition Layer]

How many have found driving trains or trucks a much better option?

Tried it, hated it, couldn’t find the crew rest or any hosties to bring me a coffee.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Chris, I realise that you are long retired from the aviation scene in NZ, or Aus for that matter, but you have to be seriously out of touch to think that any of the things you listed has a better quality of life than flying.

I don't know anyone that won't rush back to flying. Even if you are qualified in any other field you won't earn nearly as much, and your lifestyle will be magnitudes worse than flying.

Mon-Fri 8-5 can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Couldn’t agree more. The other factor that gets dismissed too easily - don’t forget why most of us got into Aviation - passion for flying. The lifestyle that it brings is just the icing on the cake.

[tossbag]

I reckon fellas and ladies with seniority will flock back, those without may be making other decisions.

[dr dre]

I reckon fellas and ladies with seniority will flock back, those without may be making other decisions.

With the rumoured recruitment about to take place over the next few years those without seniority are going to have it very soon.

Whenever there has been a pause in recruitment in recent decades there generally isn’t a mass abandonment of the company. There’s few things more desired than a number on the mainline seniority list. Sure some will take LWOP, but very few will bite the bullet and resign for good to venture into other pastures. I’d estimate less than 1% of the total pilot group have resigned prematurely in the last 20 years to take up another career, whether it be in aviation or out.

[piesang]

Is Qantas doing recruitment for CBR 717 jobs or does Cobham still do it?

[Going Nowhere]

Qantas. National Jet Systems (the 717's) are no longer part of Cobham.

[C172R]

Anyone currently an SO care to share a rough idea of earnings, or is the current thread we have on it still correct?

[HappyBandit]

Hi All

Lifestyle has been mentioned several times and I understand that LH crews typically work about 30 to 50% of an equivalent full time roster of eg domestic crew. What I'm interested to hear is what's the journey like. For eg are you looking at your watch every 30 mins dreaming that this epic flight would finish?

2) how much does it knock you around both on slips and back home?

3) is there enough time to see things at destination?

4) does it effect home lifeuch with being away for 4 to 6 days at a time?

5) is the job interesting? To be honest I don't care much about being pic after all these years and quite happy for someone else to worry about whether there's enough fuel but interested to know if the trips are still interesting enough? I guess it's what you make of it?

Anyway keen to hear. I'm now 40 and so just interested to hear how it effects us maturing folk.

[DashTrash.]

Current SO here 787 Sydney

we are still operating under Covid ops so things are still changing quite quickly. it’s been a great journey so far, mostly good crew to work with. Admin side is a bit overwhelmed and you will have to self manage yourself to some degree. At the moment divisor is 170 hrs per 56 days so lots of flights up for grabs, hence the recruitment.

to answer your questions:
2) each trip is different with some leaving you more fatigued than others generally heading east during the day time will leave you more jetlagged than flying west at night. The company does provide you with time to recover from his jetlag.
3) at the moment our slips are between 2 to 3 days depending on the pattern usually most guys and girls have plans to get out and see things and even hire cars and get about this will only improve with the lifting of Covid restrictions
4) it can affect your family lifestyle. I just plan and adjust accordingly and my family support me on this
5) Absolutely. I love it. Being of your age. As long as your comfortable with not being PIC you can still have a very fulfilling career, with lots of different opportunities in operations, training, recruitment, safety, human factors, union etc…

go for it!

[Caedus]

Anyone currently an SO care to share a rough idea of earnings, or is the current thread we have on it still correct?
Their EBA is up on FWC if you want to find out pay rates and allowances etc.

[dr dre]

Lifestyle has been mentioned several times and I understand that LH crews typically work about 30 to 50% of an equivalent full time roster of eg domestic crew.


Depends what you mean by "work". You can say that LH and SH both fly the same amount of stick hours, but LH crew spend some of that time in the bunk. In terms of days at work it would roughly be the same, expect that more of that time in International is spent in a slip port on a layover.

What I'm interested to hear is what's the journey like. For eg are you looking at your watch every 30 mins dreaming that this epic flight would finish?


For the most part yes. Having said that you don't actually fly that many sectors vs SH (depends on your A/C but about 1/5th of the sectors of a SH aircraft roughly)

2) how much does it knock you around both on slips and back home?


Quite a bit. For the most part still find time to socialise but the fatigue's always there in the background.

3) is there enough time to see things at destination?


You can fit in a day trip every now and then, and some time to look at things in the layover city. But after you've ticked off the main highlights in any port that becomes less interesting and most layovers are usually spent doing normal things you would do at home like gym, exercise, study, reading, watching movies, occasional beer etc.

4) does it effect home life much with being away for 4 to 6 days at a time?


Depends on the relationship. You'll need your family to understand the lifestyle. You'll also have the advantage of being home free for 4-6 days at a time too. As a tip when you're away on a slip do things like study for sims, or other work you can do alone while away so your time at home can be devoted to family and friends as much as possible.

One advantage of LH is you can commute more easily, so can live several hours drive out of a major city if you choose without having to drive to work every 1 or 2 days

5) is the job interesting? To be honest I don't care much about being pic after all these years and quite happy for someone else to worry about whether there's enough fuel but interested to know if the trips are still interesting enough? I guess it's what you make of it?


It's still your job as an SO to worry about the fuel and put your input into the operation. At some time you'll want to upgrade (now that there's a clear pay rise going from 78 or 350 SO to 73 FO) and it'll be pretty obvious to your trainers if you've switched your mind off in the backseat.

As far as interesting? Sometimes, but mostly no. You're there for cruise relief, and as time goes by the altitude at which you're allowed into the control seat gets higher and higher. There's some who have decided that's what they seek in life, but most want 3 and 4 bars eventually.

As far as time away in slip ports? Well some do love it, it suits their personality or lifestyle. Some loathe it.

The good thing is, assuming recruitment and movement levels return to pre Covid norms which they seem they will, is that upgrade time to SH is only a few years even in the most senior SH base so you can come back to that type of flying reasonably soon if you find the LH lifestyle doesn't suit you. Or remain in LH if you choose, it's good to have quite a few options.

[TinFoilhat2]

How long to upgrade to FO from SO. I realize Captain is unlikely for those of us over 40. However one has to be realistic with regard to finances and retirement and weigh up the options that is best for them and their families?

[HappyBandit]

Dash Trash and Dr Dre thank you kindly. Very helpful responses.

[AQIS Boigu]

For me it is all about time with family and I don’t wanna spend 3 nights in LA or YVR…what are the shortest trips on the 787 and the 330?

Thanks,
AB

[dr dre]

How long to upgrade to FO from SO. I realize Captain is unlikely for those of us over 40. However one has to be realistic with regard to finances and retirement and weigh up the options that is best for them and their families?

At the peak of pre 2020 training pretty much straight away for Perth base (slots offered to new recruits on day one), about 2 or 3 years for the Brisbane and the rest in the middle, I think Adelaide and Melbourne had some very junior FOs start at one point too, but not too long in all bases. At one point over a decade ago it was 5-7 years to the most junior FO position, so much better now.

For me it is all about time with family and I don’t wanna spend 3 nights in LA or YVR…what are the shortest trips on the 787 and the 330?

Thanks,
AB

3 day Asia, 4 day US and 5 day Londons. That’s assuming “normal” pre Covid trips and one flight a day to the destination, less than one a day and you’ll be spending longer in port. There are some longer trips too.

[AQIS Boigu]

Thanks for the answer(s)

Now the magic question - how long for an East Coast short haul command?

[Beer Baron]

Now the magic question - how long for an East Coast short haul command?
I has got out to 20 years but hopefully some of the headwinds that caused that delay have abated.
Retirement age getting extended by 5 years and the shrinking of the mainline route network are seemingly behind us and they had a huge effect.
But…. who knows what new threat is around the corner.

[Fuel-Off]

Delta currently has time to command at 2.5 months, B737 NYC based (for those who want it). Gives some perspective.

[Tibbsy]

Interesting to see helicopter drivers being included in the latest pre-requisites. Most multi-engine captains will be earning $170K-$200K but working 40+ hrs a week for it. Might be tempting but not sure if too many will have a current IPC (MEA). I wouldn't aspire to command at my age (closer to 50 than 40) but I think I could cope with SO/FO for the rest of my career pretty happily.

[dr dre]

1200+ internal applicants thus far, with a few days to go. Assume 3x that externally.

Hard to hang your hopes on those odds.

Wow if that number is true that’s got to be something like 70-80% of the total pilots in the group (including all JQ and Qlink entities).

Still shows a mainline seniority number is one of the most sought after things in Australian Aviation

[SixDemonBag]

I heard 1200, total. Sounds more reasonable.

[SHVC]

JQ might forecast a mass exodus. There has been a few positions going lately. Lots of WB positions even.

[cLeArIcE]

JQ might forecast a mass exodus. There has been a few positions going lately. Lots of WB positions even.
Carrot dangling? Fos bored of narrow body, entice them to stay with a wide body FO spot, and get the wide body FOs interested in a 320 command?

[SHVC]

I don’t think there is any carrot dangling. I think JQ are short as with tech crew, a number of retirements announced and there will be a lot more soon, Ppl getting the sack and others just leaving. JQ will be short I wonder how many they will actually release.

[skrtel]

Interesting to see with all this movement whether Tamworth will firm up as a new base for LH QF?

[Buckshot]

Any huge change in these numbers (with thanks to Keg) from 2018?

Command
East coast wide body- 740
West coast wide body- 850
Adelaide 737- 1400
Perth 737- 1400
MEL 737- 1300
SYD 737- 1000
BNE 737- 1050

F/O
PER 787- 1500
PER A330- 1650
737
PER, ADL- 2470... essentially next vacancies after you join if you have a bid in.
SYD/ MEL- Next Training year after you join.
BNE- 2150

Bottom seniority as at 31 Jul 18 is 2533. Probably 40ish joiners since then.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Wow if that number is true that’s got to be something like 70-80% of the total pilots in the group (including all JQ and Qlink entities).

Still shows a mainline seniority number is one of the most sought after things in Australian Aviation

It also shows that life on the relatively unsupported and undervalued periphery of the operation has knobs on it. Of the dozen or so pilots I know who fly for these peripheral operations, all but one of them have applied and as one of those guys says, he would run from his operation like it was a burning house.

[cLeArIcE]

It also shows that life on the relatively unsupported and undervalued periphery of the operation has knobs on it. Of the dozen or so pilots I know who fly for these peripheral operations, all but one of them have applied and as one of those guys says, he would run from his operation like it was a burning house.
Is it not at all concerning for manager's of theses groups (in particular JQ) that all your FOs and some captains want to leave? No matter what stage they are in their career, or what position they are on the JQ seniority ladder, they are signing up to be SO's and for those over 35, probably never have a command. All of this rather than work at JQ? Would management even be aware of how many apply, Doubt it.....but that's a pretty big vote of disapproval for JQ. Yes, the $ is less but time to upgrades are quicker so you would think it wouldn't be that different in the long-run. Can't just be about the $.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Is it not at all concerning for manager's of theses groups (in particular JQ) that all your FOs and some captains want to leave? No matter what stage they are in their career, or what position they are on the JQ seniority ladder, they are signing up to be SO's and for those over 35, probably never have a command. All of this rather than work at JQ? Would management even be aware of how many apply, Doubt it.....but that's a pretty big vote of disapproval for JQ. Yes, the $ is less but time to upgrades are quicker so you would think it wouldn't be that different in the long-run. Can't just be about the $.

Money and command are both worth going for if the other aspects of life are in check. Sadly the trajectory most airlines are going for is clearly one where humans are commoditised and your personal life is theirs to ruin. I hope this isn’t a case of going from the frypan into the fire, we’ve seen what they want to do to cabin crew.

[Lookleft]

Would management even be aware of how many apply, Doubt it.....but that's a pretty big vote of disapproval for JQ.

Management would know exactly who has applied and at the end of the day will restrict the flow of pilots to mainline if required. As long as the schedule is being flown they really don't care if you are happy or not at JQ.
If you want to receive mainline pay and conditions then apply to mainline. If you don't want to be an F/O or S/O for a long period of time then stay with JQ. Simple choices with long term career ramifications.

[dr dre]

Serious question. If there are 1000 applicants , 950 male and 50 female and QF decides to offer 100 positions does that mean all 50 females will get the job?
You know corporate HR equality etc + past observations. Or with a safety specific role does QF now disregard quotas etc and offer the best people the job?

This comes up all the time, and I don’t want to start another “gender quota” thread as it’s been done to the deaths but to debunk this, in the last round of general recruitment (2017-20) the proportion of female applicants was roughly similar to the proportion of female new starts. You’re seeing more women now because more of them are applying/training in aviation compared to 30/40 years ago.

I think these posts are just started by men who weren’t up to scratch in the recruitment process but want to find someone to blame other than themselves.

[dr dre]

Any huge change in these numbers (with thanks to Keg) from 2018?

The numbers are all over the shop now with the VR and ER programs taking out a few hundred numbers, plus no promotions and recruitment for a few years, but the next FY allocation should be a decent one, and with a bit of recruitment the numbers should stabilise.

[mcgrath50]

This comes up all the time, and I don’t want to start another “gender quota” thread as it’s been done to the deaths but to debunk this, in the last round of general recruitment (2017-20) the proportion of female applicants was roughly similar to the proportion of female new starts. You’re seeing more women now because more of them are applying/training in aviation compared to 30/40 years ago.

I think these posts are just started by men who weren’t up to scratch in the recruitment process but want to find someone to blame other than themselves.

Correct :ok:

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

We all heard the stories that women were to be prioritised, regardless of ability or number of applicants, when recruiting started up again a few years ago. But every time a new course started, there were around 8 starters, of whom usually one or two were women - suggesting that the stories weren’t true. No doubt a few got picked up when they shouldn’t have been, but that’s always been the case with blokes as well.

[Lookleft]

In this day and age there are no barriers to females becoming airline pilots. What HR and PC CEO's don't understand is that there are not a lot of females who want to be pilots. If you want to know of an area of aviation that is attractive to females then have a listen to ATC. To paraphrase Bill Clinton "Its the lifestyle stoopid"

[AQIS Boigu]

Applications closed last night

Lets see who gets an email

Good luck everyone

[mig3]

In this day and age there are no barriers to females becoming airline pilots. What HR and PC CEO's don't understand is that there are not a lot of females who want to be pilots. If you want to know of an area of aviation that is attractive to females then have a listen to ATC. To paraphrase Bill Clinton "Its the lifestyle stoopid"

What a narrow minded thing to say.

Some barriers to consider - lack of representation, lack of female mentors, unconscious bias within the industry, sexual harassment in the workplace, increased scrutiny with higher expectations than their male peers, the "you only got the job because of your gender", the list goes on.

The 'lifestyle' argument is also nonsense. There are plenty of jobs with similar lifestyles that have better gender ratios.

Diversity is a good thing. We owe it to our female peers to make the industry as open and welcoming as possible.

[Jee_Ray]

Hi all, anybody have any feedback about the mainline hold file re-interview?
Wondering if it's a straight forward call or if there's anything curly?
Thanks

[betterluckythangood]

Does anyone know if QF plan to use TalentQ this time around?

[Sparrows.]

Does anyone know if QF plan to use TalentQ this time around?

SHL apparently

[A320 Flyer]

Enjoy the MMPI 2 test everyone….. 🤣😂🙄

[DirectAnywhere]

260 odd is apparently the target for the next training year.

Re female pilots, I've had the pleasure of flying with two outstanding such pilots this week. Both excellent. They just come to work, get the job done, no BS. They frequently add a great dynamic to the aircraft as, in my experience, many cabin crew seem to engage much more openly with them. They're the kind of mentors aspiring young pilots of either gender should be looking to, not those seeking to make a statement every time they go to work.

[Lookleft]

What a narrow minded thing to say.

Some barriers to consider - lack of representation, lack of female mentors, unconscious bias within the industry, sexual harassment in the workplace, increased scrutiny with higher expectations than their male peers, the "you only got the job because of your gender", the list goes on.

The 'lifestyle' argument is also nonsense. There are plenty of jobs with similar lifestyles that have better gender ratios.

Diversity is a good thing. We owe it to our female peers to make the industry as open and welcoming as possible.

Aviation wasn't invented in 1994 when you were probably born. The AWPA has been around since 1950, Debbie Wardley won her court case against discrimination in 1979. I stand by my statement that there are no barriers to any female who wants a job in airlines. As to plenty of jobs with similar lifestyles I can name the most obvious-flight attendant. Anyone of those F/A's could train to be a pilot but a very small number actually do. The reason-they don't want the job.

[On Guard]

What a narrow minded thing to say.

Some barriers to consider - lack of representation, lack of female mentors, unconscious bias within the industry, sexual harassment in the workplace, increased scrutiny with higher expectations than their male peers, the "you only got the job because of your gender", the list goes on.

The 'lifestyle' argument is also nonsense. There are plenty of jobs with similar lifestyles that have better gender ratios.

Diversity is a good thing. We owe it to our female peers to make the industry as open and welcoming as possible.

No, he/she is simply stating a fact.
The vast majority of pilots I speak too welcome female pilots but all agree,including female pilots, that it must be on merit not gender.

The simple fact is females like some things more than males and vice versa. Nurses is one profession that comes to mind.

[dr dre]

260 odd is apparently the target for the next training year.



At least 22 per month for the whole year then. Not sure the sim space will be available, training might have to be outsourced.

but all agree,including female pilots, that it must be on merit not gender.



That’s the next can of worms, everyone’s definition of “merit” will be different. With evidence that the proportion of female applicants vs new hires is roughly similar then we can conclude that the system is recruiting on their standards of merit not gender.

What then happens (with a much larger number of applicants to those selected this is inevitable) there’ll be accusations that some were not selected on “merit”, or the criteria is skewed in favour of things women may naturally have an advantage in.

Truth is there have always been a far greater number of applicants than positions available, and most people make good pilots. So recruiters sometimes have to use what seem to be very strict criteria to cut the numbers down, and that may mean some people who would certainly have had a fantastic career in the airline fail to get in. Some may perceive that as women getting a job due to quotas, but it isn’t the case.

[SHVC]

The only way to settle this would be if QF group had a policy that only last name was used on applications, no gender box and when you interview you wear a hood whilst speaking through a darth vador voice synthesizer. When it comes to the sim component you also wear a hood. All gender favoritism will then be removed.

[SixDemonBag]

The only way to settle this would be if QF group had a policy that only last name was used on applications, no gender box and when you interview you wear a hood whilst speaking through a darth vador voice synthesizer. When it comes to the sim component you also wear a hood. All gender favoritism will then be removed.

Surnames could imply heritage bias. We should all just be numbers. Oh wait!….

[Australopithecus]

Yeah, and I am an odd number. What’s that make me?

[Fujiroll76]

For those who are interested and don’t understand the EA..
787 SO pay

MGH (Min Guarantee Hours) 145
Divisor (Current) 170
So, regardless of what you actually work you’ll be paid 145hrs MGH period. At the moment as it’s flat out our divisor is 170hrs.
Keep in mind this is duty hours over a 56 day period and each day is credited as 5.5hrs.

Given above you can expect to be away for 26-30 days over the 56 day period. Can be reduced with alternate paxing after trips
Big trips, short trips…same same. Some prefer 5 shorter trips (LA,JNB) others like 2.5 long trips (LHR).

Current hourly rate for a Year 3 SO $131.73
Based on MGH - $19,100 Current Divisor $22,400
STACR - $1,553
Allowances $6,000 (approx)
$26,000 - $30,000 / 56 days

Yearly $169k - 195k

In addition to above there are training events which count for additional hours. Expect another 33hrs at hourly rate.

*I included allowances for example only, you will spend majority overseas…especially LHR.

Yes once the 350’s are ordered the rates drop significantly (for new hires) Happy to stand corrected but from memory you can expect about 100K plus allowances.

[Caedus]

For those who are interested and don’t understand the EA..
787 SO pay

MGH (Min Guarantee Hours) 145
Divisor (Current) 170
So, regardless of what you actually work you’ll be paid 145hrs MGH period. At the moment as it’s flat out our divisor is 170hrs.
Keep in mind this is duty hours over a 56 day period and each day is credited as 5.5hrs.

Given above you can expect to be away for 26-30 days over the 56 day period. Can be reduced with alternate paxing after trips
Big trips, short trips…same same. Some prefer 5 shorter trips (LA,JNB) others like 2.5 long trips (LHR).

Current hourly rate for a Year 3 SO $131.73
Based on MGH - $19,100 Current Divisor $22,400
STACR - $1,553
Allowances $6,000 (approx)
$26,000 - $30,000 / 56 days

Yearly $169k - 195k

In addition to above there are training events which count for additional hours. Expect another 33hrs at hourly rate.

*I included allowances for example only, you will spend majority overseas…especially LHR.

Yes once the 350’s are ordered the rates drop significantly. Happy to stand corrected but from memory you can expect about 100K plus allowances.

That's awesome thanks for the explanation :ok:

[717tech]

The way I interpreted the EA was that new hire 787 SOs are on closer to $125/hr. Tied in with a trigger event that seems to be when QFA officially order the A350s. Is that not the case?

[Fujiroll76]

The way I interpreted the EA was that new hire 787 SOs are on closer to $125/hr. Tied in with a trigger event that seems to be when QFA officially order the A350s. Is that not the case?

Correct, Any new hires to the 787 will be on $129.14 (July 22) this doesn’t change once the 350’s are ordered. Once a firm order has been placed and recruitment commences onto the 350 then the “B” scale as mentioned above kicks in.

[Callsign Please]

Once a firm order has been placed and recruitment commences onto the 350 then the “B” scale as mentioned above kicks in.

Is the clause designed to give an extra incentive to place the order, or just to cut some costs in future?

[AQIS Boigu]

Correct, Any new hires to the 787 will be on $129.14 (July 22) this doesn’t change once the 350’s are ordered. Once a firm order has been placed and recruitment commences onto the 350 then the “B” scale as mentioned above kicks in.


Why did the union recommend this deal?

[A320 Flyer]

Why did the union recommend this deal?

They had a gun to their head

[On Guard]

Correct, Any new hires to the 787 will be on $129.14 (July 22) this doesn’t change once the 350’s are ordered. Once a firm order has been placed and recruitment commences onto the 350 then the “B” scale as mentioned above kicks in.

Can you confirm, if you get a choice get in on 787 soon before a350s, correct?

[Brakerider]

Can you confirm, if you get a choice get in on 787 soon before a350s, correct?

they have to be actively hiring for the 350 for the pay scale to apply. The jets haven’t even been ordered yet. It’s really not worth thinking about.

[Fujiroll76]

Can you confirm, if you get a choice get in on 787 soon before a350s, correct?


The B scale won’t really come into play for 18+months. It’s just the way for the company to enact their long term plan and to screw over new joiners in the years ahead. Like fellow colleagues before our time, small chunks at a time.

But first, let’s remove those golden contract cabin crew.

[dr dre]

Can you confirm, if you get a choice get in on 787 soon before a350s, correct?

You don’t get a choice of initial aircraft.

Of course get in ASAP as that gets you a better position on the seniority list.

[SHVC]

How have the loads been on international? have they been at a level that’s sustainable and survive the turbulence that’s going to hit in the next few weeks with price hikes etc.

[engine out]

Most of the flights I’ve seen have been around the 75% full mark, with business class normally alway full. A lot of 787 ops have had to have seats capped out of Darwin due to fuel requirements, this will possibly not be an issue as strong rumours are that a return to Perth will be sooner than June.

[Transition Layer]

How have the loads been on international? have they been at a level that’s sustainable and survive the turbulence that’s going to hit in the next few weeks with price hikes etc.
US loads are probably doing even better than the UK, with 80+% common and pointy end full.

[SHVC]

Ok thanks. My theory would be ppl would be more willing to holiday over seas if they want to holiday as Australia was way to expensive before COVID and now with the impending financial crisis looming from the ramifications of all these lockdowns here and abroad.

[Ladloy]

Have the internals heard anything yet? Surely this will move quite fast if they need so many pilots

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Have the internals hesrd anything yet? Surely this will move quite fast if they need so many pilots

Do the internals get a look in? I can’t see one workforce being cannibalised to feed another while it is cheaper to keep the incumbents locked into their position and get new guys off the street.

[SHVC]

I doubt the JQ guys wanting to go across will get a look in anytime soon. Amount of positions going here gives the impression we will be short also.

[skrtel]

Could easily see it happening where, QFPP students go straight into Mainline. Hence starting a new long haul Toowoomba base?

[Going Nowhere]

Sunstate have around 2-3 on each ground school at QF. I'd imagine Eastern would be similar.

[Ladloy]

300 odd internal applicants whom all get interviews. 1300 external apps culled to 400. 270 required this year, 170 currently on hold.
A lot of Rex guys believe that Qantas is targeting them to inflict pain on the company. While it may make sense for Qlink but I can't see it being true. Has anyone heard that?
Also GLTA who applied.

[KBNA]

Is that number for internals getting interviews accurate for this round? Any idea what the chances are that an internal will be get a yes and put on the hold file?

[Fujiroll76]

Could easily see it happening where, QFPP students go straight into Mainline. Hence starting a new long haul Toowoomba base?

That won’t happen.

Best case for any new internal/external is 6 months for a start date. There is still 50+ waiting for a date from the previous hold.

From what I’m hearing, don’t expect a quick exit back to the east coast. Something to consider given commuting is significantly harder to PER these days.

[Props _are_for_boats]

From what I’m hearing, don’t expect a quick exit back to the east coast. .
Why do you say that? What have you heard?

[KBNA]

That won’t happen.

Best case for any new internal/external is 6 months for a start date. There is still 50+ waiting for a date from the previous hold.

From what I’m hearing, don’t expect a quick exit back to the east coast. Something to consider given commuting is significantly harder to PER these days.

How long for a new hire to get B737 East Coast?

[Willyboy]

How long for a new hire to get B737 East Coast?

Last wave straight into Melb and SYD on the 737 no training as an S/O

[NOT PHASED]

When was this last intake and what is the seniority number for these new starters?

[Fujiroll76]

Why do you say that? What have you heard?


PER is likely to be a large 787 base when this all settles. As it currently stands, 2 SO’s are currently active in the PER base. It will need to be rebuilt as all have taken opportunities on the east coast. At the end of the day, PER is the entry point - you do your time and transfer when a spot becomes available. It’s a matter of when not if…….just don’t expect it to occur on your first BP like last time.

[Fujiroll76]

How long for a new hire to get B737 East Coast?
Allocations for the training year are due next month which will provide an insight into the demand for SH.
New starters East coast, 2 years. Maybe sooner could be longer. Plenty to play out

[Props _are_for_boats]

PER is likely to be a large 787 base when this all settles. As it currently stands, 2 SO’s are currently active in the PER base. It will need to be rebuilt as all have taken opportunities on the east coast. At the end of the day, PER is the entry point - you do your time and transfer when a spot becomes available. It’s a matter of when not if…….just don’t expect it to occur on your first BP like last time.

fair enough

[Training Risky]

What a narrow minded thing to say.

Some barriers to consider - lack of representation, lack of female mentors, unconscious bias within the industry, sexual harassment in the workplace, increased scrutiny with higher expectations than their male peers, the "you only got the job because of your gender", the list goes on.

The 'lifestyle' argument is also nonsense. There are plenty of jobs with similar lifestyles that have better gender ratios.

Diversity is a good thing. We owe it to our female peers to make the industry as open and welcoming as possible.
What ill-informed virtue-signalling rubbish.

There is plenty of representation, both at the gate and on the media. Harassment is policed with the fervour of the Taliban on a beard inspection, and it is demonstrably true that fewer women in a population want to be pilots than the men do.

Engage brain before commenting on things you know little of.

[kjvmw]

Anyone heard anything?

[Rbwoonton]

NAFT 😂

10char

[NOT PHASED]

Anyone heard anything?
Just that ground schools have been offered for April, May and June with more to come

[Hawaiian.party]

So how many of you got aptitude testing?

[WannaBeBiggles]

So how many of you got aptitude testing?

Internal or external?

[Hawaiian.party]

I know of a couple of externals that got emails yesterday.

[Brakerider]

I know of a couple of externals that got emails yesterday.

jet time??

[hillbillybob]

in my mates case >30 seat turbo prop (external)

[Trigger Happy]

We are swamped. Expect update soon email a few days ago.

[Hawaiian.party]

No jet time for the guys I know who got emails.

[Ladloy]

No jet time for the guys I know who got emails.
where from exactly?

[Hawaiian.party]

Various medium Turboprop operators.

[AQIS Boigu]

How are you all prepping for the online test?

[TimmyTee]

If you ain't Rex, you're last

[Low Pass]

How are you all prepping for the online test?

By telling them I work for REX. Direct entry

[cLeArIcE]

Any internals or guys/girls at VA hear anything yet?

[High_To_Low]

What testing platform is being used this time?

[AQIS Boigu]

What testing platform is being used this time?

CEB/SHL Talent Measurement Solutions

[spandexo]

CEB/SHL Talent Measurement Solutions
What are they testing on that platform - Verbal Reasoning, Inductive, numerical?