Qantas Recruitment [Archive] - Page 7

goodonyamate

29th May 2018, 22:07

The move to the 737 hasn’t worked out that well for a number of your colleagues, who thought it would be easy as it’s just ‘the light training twin’. I suppose when you’ve been sleeping across the pacific for 20 years the skills drop off a little bit :p

but, you’re right, the system let’s you do what you say (unfortunately). In my view it’s one of the biggest rorts going around, and despite what you say it will negatively affect everyone junior to you, especially those who’ve missed so much in the lost decade, but it’s your right and it can’t be taken away. FWIW an over 65 on the 737 doesn’t generally bother me, however an over 65 who chooses to keep flying on the 737 and then moans about how it’s not fair and they’ve been screwed, after having their career handed to them on a platter.....well they can F right off.

SandyPalms

29th May 2018, 23:17

So now nobody can retire when they want to? What age are you going to retire, your plan or when the company decides they don’t want your aircraft?
Remember, they are going to get rid of the Jumbo, no option to stay on it for a planned year or two longer so if timing means doing a course and then retiring then that is what some will do.
The only effect on junior pilots is that of waiting for a slot based on seniority, ops normal.
On the other hand if VR caused anyone to leave early then junior pilots would benefit!

Thomas
No malice intended, but what you say is just a bit confusing.
You state that you want to retire when you want to. Fair enough, and I’d doubt that anybody is suggesting you shouldn’t have that choice. But previously you stated that you would go to the A380, then retire 6 months later just to “F#$k em”. I don’t know if that is when you turn 65 or not, you didn’t state that.
For reference, a LH pilot staying beyond 65 and moving to the 737 makes no difference to anybody who has command seniority, as you vacate a Widebody seat, that makes that available to them.
I would love them to offer you a VR as it’s gets you out of the system and helps everyone, but they won’t.

How many are there that can displace? And how close to retirement are you? Or the most senior A380 blokes? I feel they will train you to the A380, but they won’t displace. There will be enough forced retirements, or 737 bids from the A380 to just wear the over crewed situation until an equilibrium is reached.

JPJP

29th May 2018, 23:29

Generally speaking you are correct. In QF there are some complexities as the displacing pilots must be "NAMED" in the Reduction in Numbers process, which is just as it sounds, their name must appear on the Flight Standing Order.
In this case, the 744/Capt will displace an A380/Capt. That A380/Capt will most likely bid for 787 (as the next 787 bid will most likely include a Sydney Base) which is a training course that must be done irrespective of the 744 RIN. So there you go, 2 courses and the RIN (in this one case) is finished. The domino effect you speak of in this case, doesn't happen.
The same can be said for the A330 as training is going at pace on that aircraft also, however there would be an extra course in that scenario, but thats only 3.
With a redundancy, that 787 course will be filled by an A330/Capt, which will be filled by a 737/Capt which will be filled by an A330/FO which will be filled by a 737/FO which will be....................... and so on. In my opinion, this RIN will save them money. The way I see it, they won't offer redundancy.

Understood. Thanks for taking the time. That is fairly conventional; but with four fleets, and one growing (training anyway) the cost may be less than paying out a senior CA.

Tuner 2

29th May 2018, 23:51

Tankengine

30th May 2018, 18:37

where did I say no one can choose when they retire? I was simply noting that anyone who starts 737 training around age 65 with no intention of finishing it is marking life harder on their colleagues, because it than takes many months to train their replacement and in the meantime everyone else has to fly harder.

I can assure you no 747 Captain who is not approaching 65 will go to the 737.
I have been there, done that, not needing to go back and not approaching 65 (or 60 for that matter!)
Younger pilots with some time left to go will displace more junior pilots on the 380 if a RIN happens and they are named,
depending on how many do this it could affect about half the 380 guys, remembering that some are quite junior after the classic, 747 and 767 RINs.
If VR is offered some will retire early, if not offered they will go where their seniority allows, displacing other pilots (not ideal!) and causing a ****storm of training. They will then retire at a time of their choosing, which may be years, or months!
In any case the training department cannot keep up and you will be working harder, (currently some are on enforced time off due hitting 900hrs), better pray they offer VR.!

Tankengine

30th May 2018, 18:48

Thomas
No malice intended, but what you say is just a bit confusing.
You state that you want to retire when you want to. Fair enough, and I’d doubt that anybody is suggesting you shouldn’t have that choice. But previously you stated that you would go to the A380, then retire 6 months later just to “F#$k em”. I don’t know if that is when you turn 65 or not, you didn’t state that.
For reference, a LH pilot staying beyond 65 and moving to the 737 makes no difference to anybody who has command seniority, as you vacate a Widebody seat, that makes that available to them.
I would love them to offer you a VR as it’s gets you out of the system and helps everyone, but they won’t.

How many are there that can displace? And how close to retirement are you? Or the most senior A380 blokes? I feel they will train you to the A380, but they won’t displace. There will be enough forced retirements, or 737 bids from the A380 to just wear the over crewed situation until an equilibrium is reached.

Why state my age for you? - it is on my profile on every post!
How close to retirement? Different question as one of Qantas’ planning errors is thinking everyone is going to 65 which is certainly not the case for me. To my view anyone going past 65 on the 737 is stealing a command off some younger pilot, just my opinion. Good luck with training the 747 RINies on the 380 without displacements, the divisor would plummet! ;)

indamiddle

2nd Jun 2018, 00:34

Has QF ever offered vr to pilots?
would QF offer vr in the current shortage?
how would this effect/affect 457 situation?
would QF give a rats arse if a rinned skipper quits during or shortly after retraining?
what difference would a $200,000 vr make? Why not fly another 18 months?

qf management make their decisions based on making their kpi's and therefore the subsequent bonus.
Retire when you've had a gutfull and enough $$ to fund your final years or marry some rich tart (with poor eyesight)
cheers all and happy flying or retirement

Keg

2nd Jun 2018, 01:04

Has QF ever offered vr to pilots?

Yes. In 2014 with the retirement of the 767 there were VRs offered to both 767 pilots as well as 744 Captains (and maybe F/Os too? Can't remember precisely).

would QF offer vr in the current shortage?

Probably not. I don't discount the possibility of targeted VR. EG they may look at a 62-63 year old 744 driver, know they'll only get 18 months out of them once they're checked to line on the 787 or A380 and decide to offer that pilot a VR to go rather than double train. It'd need some precise numbers on the cost of the training course, the cost to pay the pilot whilst they're on said training course, etc.

how would this effect/affect 457 situation?

The 457s being requested are not for mainline. They're for Dash 8 TRIs and TREs. I've no expertise in the area but in my uninformed option I wouldn't expect it'd have any significant impact.

would QF give a rats arse if a rinned skipper quits during or shortly after retraining?

Yes... especially during training. It's a massive pain in terms of paired training for sims and so on. The vacancy then needs to be filled and that will also be an unpaired course.

what difference would a $200,000 vr make? Why not fly another 18 months?

Tax rates for VR are much better. A pilot who is 62 and wasn't fussed if they went to 65 or not may decide that with their accrued LSL, AL (if they have any left during the decreased flying on the fleet), may decide to take the extra year's pay and not put themselves through the type course change and of course the additional fun of increased LH flying on the 787.

Not saying it will happen or even if it's likely. I just reckon it's an unexplored option.

dragon man

2nd Jun 2018, 01:20

Personally with the current training load I don’t think they will have a choice. It will be 747 Capt and FOs only. Under a RIN there is no return of service on a higher type, so Captains close to 65 can RIN to the 380 and there is nothing they can do about it except VR them, start their training and waste the resources, pay them gardening leave. As usual a decision was made to get rid of the 747 at short notice after planning was working on probably another 5 years. It is and will be chaos for the foreseeable future IMO.

indamiddle

2nd Jun 2018, 01:37

Thanks for the replies from Keg and Dragonman.
whatever anyone says how good it is retired, don't believe them.
It is a lot better than you can imagine.
just wish for a bit more wind on the bay today. Looks like a slow race in the SAGS today (:

Tankengine

2nd Jun 2018, 08:52

Yes. In 2014 with the retirement of the 767 there were VRs offered to both 767 pilots as well as 744 Captains (and maybe F/Os too? Can't remember precisely).

Probably not. I don't discount the possibility of targeted VR. EG they may look at a 62-63 year old 744 driver, know they'll only get 18 months out of them once they're checked to line on the 787 or A380 and decide to offer that pilot a VR to go rather than double train. It'd need some precise numbers on the cost of the training course, the cost to pay the pilot whilst they're on said training course, etc.

The 457s being requested are not for mainline. They're for Dash 8 TRIs and TREs. I've no expertise in the area but in my uninformed option I wouldn't expect it'd have any significant impact.

Yes... especially during training. It's a massive pain in terms of paired training for sims and so on. The vacancy then needs to be filled and that will also be an unpaired course.

Tax rates for VR are much better. A pilot who is 62 and wasn't fussed if they went to 65 or not may decide that with their accrued LSL, AL (if they have any left during the decreased flying on the fleet), may decide to take the extra year's pay and not put themselves through the type course change and of course the additional fun of increased LH flying on the 787.

Not saying it will happen or even if it's likely. I just reckon it's an unexplored option.
Targetting VR By age is illegal discrimination.
Last time a 64.9 year old got 12 Months pay to leave! :)

dragon man

2nd Jun 2018, 09:10

Targetting VR By age is illegal discrimination.
Last time a 64.9 year old got 12 Months pay to leave! :)

only because the dickheads didn’t know he was out the door a month or two later, however I’m sure that someone in some area of the company got a bonus for reaching their KPI for bodies that to go. And yes, before you ask I’m cynical after 30 plus years here.

Tankengine

2nd Jun 2018, 09:54

jwoww0502

2nd Jun 2018, 10:08

wombat watcher

2nd Jun 2018, 11:06

only because the dickheads didn’t know he was out the door a month or two later, however I’m sure that someone in some area of the company got a bonus for reaching their KPI for bodies that to go. And yes, before you ask I’m cynical after 30 plus years here.

dragon man,
you either don’t understand or appreciate that pilots being pilots are out there trying to milk the system for their own advantage. That being the case, they will do whatever they have to do to achieve this end. Look at the few that bid for B737 cmd slots when they were approching 65 as a B747 captain , never intending to take the vacancy up, in the days before they started the course went sick, took their sick leave at B747 rates until after it was exhausted, left the company or then started their course.
the managers may be after their kpis, but their incompetence is far exceeded by the cynical exploitation of the system by the pilots, and it is getting worse as gen Y, gen X ,millenials get their turn. Read the other threads on Prune if you don’t believe me.
the

FightDeck

2nd Jun 2018, 16:46

Tankengine

2nd Jun 2018, 23:30

The Hourly rate is more on the 787 than the 747.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.

Stop calling me Shirley!
Hourly rate higher for less credited hours due no night credits.
Lack of additional pay credits for long flights mean 787 is quite a total pay drop for the sectors the two aircraft currently do.
Times have changed since the vote.

Tankengine

2nd Jun 2018, 23:36

How long does a Pilot Ground school go for? They have all done 1000+ hours by the time they apply, so how long is it until they start doing their demo flights? Cabin crew do between 4-7 weeks of ground school learning how to do everything.
5 weeks or so ground school then 5 weeks or so for sims. At least that is what a recent conversion took, initial may be a bit longer.

dragon man

2nd Jun 2018, 23:55

[QUOTE=FightDeck;10163357]The Hourly rate is more on the 787 than the 747.
Roughly 87% of 747 pilots voted for the EA that was to be their replacement type. Junior A380 pilots likewise.
Surely you’d get killed in the rush to the 787.

U start on the 787 on year 1 money not year 12 as in the 747. The difference between year 1 and 4 (top scale) is approx $50,000 per annum for a Capt. I had an FO the other day tell me his take home pay on the 747 is approx $2,000 a fortnight more than his friend on the 787. The reason the EA got up was backpay. The majority of older pilots thought this will never effect me I just want the back pay, and now the chickens are coming home to roost where they will remain for ever.

Tankengine

3rd Jun 2018, 00:31

dragon man

3rd Jun 2018, 01:23

It’s a different perspective when you’ve had your career handed to you on a platter isn’t it

Nope, it’s called getting wiser when you get older and realising that we were getting our collective pants badly pulled down.

Beer Baron

3rd Jun 2018, 01:23

U start on the 787 on year 1 money not year 12 as in the 747. The difference between year 1 and 4 (top scale) is approx $50,000 per annum for a Capt.
Not if you move during a RIN. If you are awarded or assigned a 787 position during a RIN you go straight to year 4 pay.

ruprecht

3rd Jun 2018, 02:27

Nope, it’s called getting wiser when you get older and realising that we were getting our collective pants badly pulled down.

It’s easier to be wise when it’s not your job on the line.

Chris2303

3rd Jun 2018, 02:52

Obviously not a pilot (I put your passengers on the airplane) but what is RIN?

dragon man

3rd Jun 2018, 03:16

[QUOTE=ruprecht;10163601]

It’s easier to be wise when it’s not your job on the line.

That was all part part of their con job and you fell for it.[

Tankengine

3rd Jun 2018, 03:21

Obviously not a pilot (I put your passengers on the airplane) but what is RIN?
RIN = Reduction In Numbers, when fleet size reduces so less pilots required.

ruprecht

3rd Jun 2018, 03:48

That was all part part of their con job and you fell for it.

Ha! I’m still disappointed I didn’t get my free unicorn with EBA 8... :p

dragon man

3rd Jun 2018, 03:57

Ha! I’m still disappointed I didn’t get my free unicorn with EBA 8... :p

We all got a unicorn, he runs the joint!!!!!

Seagull201

3rd Jun 2018, 23:17

A news article i came across on my phone this morning, which was posted 20 hours ago on
"Australian business traveller" or www.ausbt.com.au/tags/qantas , saying, Qantas looks to
order ultra-long range Airbus or Boeing jets in 2019, for delivery in 2022.

Aircraft talked about, 777-8 and A350-9 also 350-1000.

V-Jet

3rd Jun 2018, 23:29

A news article i came across on my phone this morning, which was posted 20 hours ago

What a tragedy you didn't hear that 20 YEARS ago. Everything would be so different:(

Guest123

4th Jun 2018, 09:08

Does anyone have any inside information on how many people from last year’s interviews are still on active hold?

Buckshot

4th Jun 2018, 22:25

744 tech crew resources stretched

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/there-s-no-one-pilot-sickness-faults-stretch-qantas-20180604-p4zj9v.html

BO0M

5th Jun 2018, 02:13

Any insight as to when applications will open again?

Keg

5th Jun 2018, 02:53

I’d be surprised if applications opened again in 2018. They’ve barely started interviewing people from the 900 applications from this year.

mrdeux

5th Jun 2018, 04:05

744 tech crew resources stretched

That just means that 30 or so people didn't want to answer the phone...not that they didn't exist. A predictable outcome....

dragon man

5th Jun 2018, 04:17

That just means that 30 or so people didn't want to answer the phone...not that they didn't exist. A predictable outcome....

And as usual even if they did they wouldn’t want to go to Santiago.

Keg

5th Jun 2018, 08:10

And as usual even if they did they wouldn’t want to go to Santiago.

Which I don't discount as the reason the trip was uncrewed in the first instance anyway! :E

(Talking generically and with tongue in cheek, not suggesting for a moment that crew would call in sick for a long slip Santiago at a rate higher than for other trips or that the specific crew member on the trip reported on by the media was anything other than close to his or her death bed with illness). :O :ok:

mrdeux

5th Jun 2018, 12:27

I should have rung in and offered to go. I've never been to Santiago, and it's 9 years since I last flew a 747 (and 26 since the right seat), but how hard could it be?

Far Canel

5th Jun 2018, 15:12

I’d be surprised if applications opened again in 2018. They’ve barely started interviewing people from the 900 applications from this year.
I guessing no pilot shortage for now👍

Keg

6th Jun 2018, 02:12

Not in Qantas. There is a shortage of training capacity but that’s because of short sighted idiocy dating back to mid 2014.

Keg

6th Jun 2018, 06:25

Apparently really not in Qantas given the quality of candidates who I’m hearing are getting knock back emails today.

600-700 external applicants. Maximum of 200 positions of which a fair swathe (who knows how many) will be set aside for internals from JQ and QLink.

notthisguy1

6th Jun 2018, 09:20

The quality of applicants that were knocked back today is extremely surprising!

The only people who were able to get through to the next round, from my company at least, are people who sit in the left, some of which have less experience than the people who got knocked back.

brokenagain

6th Jun 2018, 09:27

4000 hour multi crew turboprop captain, 'thanks but no thanks, not competitive enough to proceed to testing'.

Ah well, their loss.

Jeps

6th Jun 2018, 09:34

This time round could it be because of the straight to the 737 potential? And maybe staggering the ages of candidates? Wait that’s too forward thinking. Silly me.

aussiepilot

6th Jun 2018, 09:48

Any substance to a link between tertiary qualification (or lack of) and the knock back emails?

I guess that's one way of culling applicants. Never mind the aeronautical experience...

DirectAnywhere

6th Jun 2018, 10:12

Ouch. Sorry to hear that broken. That's tough news.

Are we still seeing the HR-centric approach to recruitment? Failure rate I've heard for SOTs is unprecedented in my experience. Hope they've learnt their lesson.

Best of luck to all those who get knocked back. It's tough but QF is certainly not the only game in town. Take care of yourselves.

assasin

6th Jun 2018, 10:55

Got the big NO today also, no testing either, 8000+hrs multicrew turboprop captain.

Capt Fathom

6th Jun 2018, 11:51

4000 hour multi crew turboprop captain, 'thanks but no thanks, not competitive enough to proceed to testing'.
Ah well, their loss.
That’s your opinion, but not theirs! Maybe that’s was the issue.
Who knows what they want, I don’t think they know.

notthisguy1

6th Jun 2018, 12:05

Any substance to a link between tertiary qualification (or lack of) and the knock back emails?

I guess that's one way of culling applicants. Never mind the aeronautical experience...

That could be a reason, however even with a Bachelor of Engineering, still a big fat no.

V-Jet

6th Jun 2018, 12:07

To all the complete weirdo’s out there who don’t get the nod, I’ve been in long enough to say I am deeply concerned about the recruitment process as dictated by HR. What Qf are after (IMHO) are complete yes men. That is something I do NOT want in the LHS of any jet I’m paxing on. I don’t like the direction the company has been on for decades, I don’t like the way it is managed and I have grave misgivings about the ‘management’ of the recruitment process.

Qf is going nowhere (certainly international) anytime soon. And please understand there are many options other than living your life not sleeping at normal hours and waiting to answer someone else’s telephone calls.

I got the golden call, as did a number here, of course. But let me say that I believe that might not have been such a gift and that anyone who has the temerity to complete an IFR rating has the ability to be successful anywhere and in any field they choose. Flying is a wonderful activity. However, I’d guess most here reading this could find a career path that might see them owning their own jet and calling someone else to do the hard work when they just wanted to go somewhere but actually wanted to sleep that night.

increase.descent

6th Jun 2018, 13:19

A mate got the nod for testing with 3000+ RHS 777/747, Bachelors Degree and “frozen” CASA ATPL.

Seagull201

6th Jun 2018, 22:00

I'd say QF have enough applicants with jet/airline experience to choose from, on this occasion.

Reading the Virgin thread, more and more Virgin pilots are coming across to QF, then you got a good number of CX pilots wanting to come home,
you got Airforce pilots that are flying sophisticated equipment, then QF has to accommodate applicants from Qlink/Jetstar.

So the end result is, there's not too many positions available for general aviation applicants.

During the last 5 to 10 years, more and more Australian pilot license holders are flying for operators outside their country, especially Asia,
and returning home with experience on airline jet aircraft.

Apart from this wave of recruitment by QF, it will be interesting to see, where the company will slot their future 100 a year cadets in the QF system.

dragon man

6th Jun 2018, 22:24

They will probably find a way to slot them into the seniority system above the other recruits on the basis of diversity ,inclusion or some other form of HR bulls##t.👍👍👍

Jeps

6th Jun 2018, 22:32

I agree Seagull. It’ll begin to thin out real quick. I think Keg said a little while ago they aren’t short now but they will be in a year or so. As for the flying school. We shall wait to see If that on gets off the ground this century :p

SandyPalms

6th Jun 2018, 22:45

I’m wondering, in this time of Shortage, if candidates who are getting no letters, are there still “don’t apply again” letters or are they all “try again” next round? I’d think it prudent to not let anyone get away totally at the moment. Hopefullly everyone with a desire to come here will get another go.

Good Luck

Flyboy1987

6th Jun 2018, 22:45

They will probably find a way to slot them into the seniority system above the other recruits on the basis of diversity ,inclusion or some other form of HR bulls##t.👍👍👍

good thing for us, it won’t be long until white heterosexual males are the minority 🤙🏻

Sykes

6th Jun 2018, 23:34

it will be interesting to see, where the company will slot their future 100 a year cadets in the QF system.

Where they always intended for them to go: Eastern, Sunstate and Network. I left there late last year. Between them, the turboprop outfits were about 100 pilots fewer than they were 2 years earlier and were losing around 60 pilots per year. Doubt that's changed much in six months. From what I hear, Network can't crew their current fleet, let alone an expanded one.

And who can blame them? All three entities are easily the lowest paid and hardest working pilots in the QF group.

dusty99

6th Jun 2018, 23:37

I am in the no boat as well, pretty much everyone I know got a no as well other than a couple of very low experienced Captains.

Who knows what they want, it is just so very frustrating knowing there are so many of us out here working hard and who have the right experience and still get knocked back not even a look in with psychometric testing. Especially knowing some of the people who have got in the past 12-18 months I am just so surprised.

Lets see if they at least hold true to their word in the email that they will be in contact with other Qantas Group positions, or is that just to try and soften the blow for us?

Soon this HR tactic is going to bite them in the arse surely.

dragon man

6th Jun 2018, 23:58

Really, hardest working? 900 hours in 12 months not enough?

Seagull201

7th Jun 2018, 00:40

Where they always intended for them to go: Eastern, Sunstate and Network. I left there late last year. Between them, the turboprop outfits were about 100 pilots fewer than they were 2 years earlier and were losing around 60 pilots per year. Doubt that's changed much in six months. From what I hear, Network can't crew their current fleet, let alone an expanded one.

And who can blame them? All three entities are easily the lowest paid and hardest working pilots in the QF group.

Looking at the big picture, once this QF academy starts and is up and running, producing 100 cadets a year.
I see a number of these cadets going straight to the B7378 as F/O's, others may go to the Dash 8 or as Second Officers.

Jetstar cadets are going straight to the A320 as F/O's, i see QF doing the same.
From a pure observer's point of view, i see this happening without any doubt.

Flyboy1987

7th Jun 2018, 00:48

Looking at the big picture, once this QF academy starts and is up and running, producing 100 cadets a year.
I see a number of these cadets going straight to the B7378 as F/O's, others may go to the Dash 8 or as Second Officers.

Jetstar cadets are going straight to the A320 as F/O's, i see QF doing the same.
From a pure observer's point of view, i see this happening without any doubt.

I was always under the impression that the flying school was for qlink?

All media pics i’ve Seen have featured dash 8’s and that’s the impression I got from the qlink CP at the qantas roadshow?

Jc31

7th Jun 2018, 00:52

Really, hardest working? 900 hours in 12 months not enough?
dragon man are you talking about the 737 op because hardest working doesn’t just come down to flying hours. I have a friend at network. Their monthly roster stands at 74 flying hours to 155 duty hours. Don’t think there is that kind of gap on the 73. Personally I look at duty as opposed to flying as it’s the duty that means I’m away from home.

Slezy9

7th Jun 2018, 01:00

Not one RAAF applicant that I know of who applied in the latest round got asked to complete further testing. Perhaps there is more to this rumor of some deal between RAAF DP and Qantas HR.

dr dre

7th Jun 2018, 01:14

Not one RAAF applicant that I know of who applied in the latest round got asked to complete further testing. Perhaps there is more to this rumor of some deal between RAAF DP and Qantas HR.

Or maybe the ones you know of just didn’t meet the standards, attitudes or experience that is being sought. Why do you assume that your RAAF mates should automatically get accepted into selection, when the standard is so high that thousand hour turboprop captains are getting knocked back? Being ex-RAAF doesn’t automatically equal “great airline pilot”.

Maybe recruiting are focusing on applicants with current jet airline experience? It looks like recruits are spending very little time as an SO or even none at all, so they want candidates who can easily transition into an FO role. From what I’m hearing in this time of supposed HR driven “yes men” being favoured, the candidates who have been selected in the last two years are actually considered very competent and they aren’t the ones having issues with their FO training.

GoldCoastTobacconist

7th Jun 2018, 01:30

Jc31

7th Jun 2018, 01:36

Jc31 - spending the day at a fully equipped mine site in private accommodation with great meals , pool , gym , foxtel and internet will be a hard sell against 4 or 5 sector days etc. The Learmonth day is not so rosy but alas that's Network.
don’t know what mine sites you’ve been to but I’ve never seen one as amazing as that! The dash guys are doing 4/5 sector days. Those guys don’t get enough credit. That kind of flying is hard!

nefarious1

7th Jun 2018, 01:49

Sounds more likely that applicants will be vectored towards the under crewed subsidiaries, for a minimum return of service, before being able to move across to the parent. Might actually make sense......or it’s all completely random.

Guest123

7th Jun 2018, 05:17

Not one RAAF applicant that I know of who applied in the latest round got asked to complete further testing. Perhaps there is more to this rumor of some deal between RAAF DP and Qantas HR.

I’ve been told by someone on the inside that there is truth to this rumour. RAAF pilots aren’t the only ones being held back by such an arrangement. There have been a number of discriminatory practices by HR that could open themselves up to litigation, but I doubt anybody would call them out on it and burn that bridge.

QldPilotGuy

7th Jun 2018, 07:26

Aghh this all really cracks me up. I have flown all around the world, of all nationalities and sexes. No set race or sex makes a good pilot, it purely comes down to the skill and outlook that makes a good pilot

Yet here in the land of equality skills take a back seat. We have experienced Captains getting turned down and although I know that there are plenty of more experienced people then myself out there (In my 30's and a few thousand hours on the B737-800) I also got a thank you but no thank you email from QF.

This in the face of them setting up a flight school due to them saying they have a lack of pilots, doing a roadshow around the country and although I hate to say it because I would like to believe we are all looked on at our skill and experience level, their being a number of very young female second officers being employed.

Unfortunately I have given up on the QF Dream and I believe that's actually a good thing, I would prefer to work for a company that values experience and skills and not ticking off a HR column for specific demographics.

And before the negative comments role in, some of the best pilots I have ever flown with are female, but equality should be about EVERYONE getting a fair go, not disregarding candidates on what sex they are.

All the best everyone, keep the blue side up.

Sykes

7th Jun 2018, 07:33

dragon man

As said earlier, it's not always about flying hours. Regional flying is always limited by duty hours, as very few sectors are greater than one hour. Can only speak for the props (and when I left late last year), but Eastern and Sunstate pilots were pretty much flying 19 or 20 days out of every 28, and averaging four sectors per day. I keep in touch with many of the crew and little has changed. Something else to remember is that the increased workload that the 737 crews are flying is relatively recent. The type of workload that I described earlier started making it's appearance around four years ago at the link, it was common when I left. Ever since the idiots that run the place decided that they only needed 8 pilots for each aircraft (4 Capts, 4 FO's.).

And don't forget the pay. A 10 year Q400 captain has a base around 130k. Allowances (even with the increased workload) are probably only another 25k on top of that. So quite a bit less than a 737 FO.

Looking at the big picture, once this QF academy starts and is up and running, producing 100 cadets a year.
I see a number of these cadets going straight to the B7378 as F/O's, others may go to the Dash 8 or as Second Officers.

Jetstar cadets are going straight to the A320 as F/O's, i see QF doing the same.
From a pure observer's point of view, i see this happening without any doubt.

I've seen a lot of your comments. I'll be kind and say that you're being a little naïve if you believe this.

junior.VH-LFA

7th Jun 2018, 07:41

Or maybe the ones you know of just didn’t meet the standards, attitudes or experience that is being sought. Why do you assume that your RAAF mates should automatically get accepted into selection, when the standard is so high that thousand hour turboprop captains are getting knocked back? Being ex-RAAF doesn’t automatically equal “great airline pilot”.

Maybe recruiting are focusing on applicants with current jet airline experience? It looks like recruits are spending very little time as an SO or even none at all, so they want candidates who can easily transition into an FO role. From what I’m hearing in this time of supposed HR driven “yes men” being favoured, the candidates who have been selected in the last two years are actually considered very competent and they aren’t the ones having issues with their FO training.

I don't think he is implying that a RAAF pilot is any better at all or automatically worthy of a gig with QF.

There have been rumors for some time of a plea deal between Government and Airlines with regards to pilot recruitment and retention. It's not unreasonable to link no one getting offers (many with thousands of hours on big jets) and a very steadily declining RAAF pilot group to link the two of them together. There's no need to be so defensive. I'm really not sure why pilots feel the need to fight each other.

If it is indeed true, I wouldn't be surprised.

dragon man

7th Jun 2018, 08:28

maggot

7th Jun 2018, 08:40

'replacement'? Sounds like a half assed rumour to me, that's IA terminology, ain't it?

Rated De

7th Jun 2018, 09:43

Hot off the rumour mill. The fuel price has them on a cost cutting campaign. They are burning the midnight oil at the moment to come up with a plan to call the 787 a 747 replacement and therefore avoid a RIN. Do I believe it? Yes, they have no scruples or morals.

In the other thread we spoke extensively on the impact of fuel. Fuel prices are 21% higher than 12 months ago.
Qantas due fleet composition are more exposed than those carriers who re-equipped a decade ago. Qantas could well whipsaw (if the idiot analysts ever bother checking the numbers)

Sources inside Qantas quietly suggested while little Napoleon was busy spending shareholder money funding/pushing his personal social view in the Same Sex Marriage 'discussion', alleged elements of Senior Management were very concerned with the term structure in the Oil and thus Jet fuel market.

dusty99

8th Jun 2018, 00:20

Transition Layer

8th Jun 2018, 23:47

In the allocations released yesterday, Melbourne 737 F/O is now junior to Perth and Adelaide. Looks to be a huge amount of movement through Melbourne with people shuffling 737-330-787 and changing seats versus minimal movement in Perth or Adelaide.

I don’t have an updated seniority list but those 737 Melbourne spots are going to people with less than 12 months in the company. Sydney isn’t far behind either. Good time to be a new joiner if you don’t particularly want to sit in the back seat and ride the party bus :p

Keg

9th Jun 2018, 03:00

In the allocations released yesterday, Melbourne 737 F/O is now junior to Perth and Adelaide.

I think you’ll find not enough S/Os are bidding for ADL or PER so Qantas cut the cloth to match the bids. A few months back a colleague was told he was a shoe in for a PER command. The lack of S/Os bidding for F/O PER means that is no longer the case. And he missed out. Qantas wants to keep Captain and F/O numbers the same in PER but they can’t get the PER base to the size they want due to lack of F/O bids. The flying still needs to be crewed so the end result is bigger bases where people are bidding to go and Qantas will have to wear increased accommodation costs in PER.

Keg

9th Jun 2018, 03:02

If a new joiner was to start at mainline, what kind of progression in base and rank could one expect including the less popular bases (not sure which one, however I assume it is PER). What is the likelyhood of being offered a FO slot on day one? I have heard rumours of this happening but is there any first hand information out there. Appreciate any insight...

Not day one. Normally day two or three. (That’s serious by the way). Of course with the recent promulgation of training slots that may decrease for the next few months. I’d expect them to start offering PER 737 F/O in the first week again from about the end of this year or early next year.

Transition Layer

9th Jun 2018, 04:31

I think you’ll find not enough S/Os are bidding for ADL or PER so Qantas cut the cloth to match the bids...Qantas wants to keep Captain and F/O numbers the same in PER but they can’t get the PER base to the size they want due to lack of F/O bids.
G’day Keg,
Hadn’t considered that scenario. Perhaps it’s time to start recruiting directly for Perth 737 F/O positions then. Surely a LoA or whatever the equivalent is these days could be put together to allow direct entry F/O spots under certain conditions (Condition #1 would be no current QF Pilots can be bidding for that base and category.)

Beer Baron

9th Jun 2018, 07:05

Unfortunately LoA’s aren’t permissible anymore and Qantas are not seeking to amend the SH EBA to allow for it in this current round of bargaining.

Seems short-sighted as there should be a way to allow for it without upsetting the already employed pilots.

Keg

9th Jun 2018, 07:26

I suspect too it's a function of the demographic of the crew being recruited. Given the high number of very experienced pilots applying to be S/Os, it's no surprise that the majority of those getting in are often early 30's with lots of time in either jets or turbo props as other long time F/Os or even Captains. Thus they've done 'the hard yards' (so to speak), have established families, with husbands or wives who established in their own careers. These people are simply more competitive than your 20-24 year old Caravan driver from Broome and it's no surprise the recruitment system jumps at them.

Of course having established families in established locations they're not interested in uprooting everything and heading off to Perth to get an F/O slot. The 22 year old Caravan driver who we overlooked as 'not competitive' and instead recommended to Qlink to fly the Dash 8 would have jumped at the chance for a 737 F/O slot after only a couple of months as a S/O. The sad thing is I know of a couple of very experienced people who would have jumped at a 737 F/O slot in PER and would be great addition to mainline. Sadly their 'customer focus' was adjudged not good enough. :ugh:

It's ultimately supply and demand. We have enough pilots but the supply says 'we don't want to move to PER'.

dr dre

9th Jun 2018, 09:47

It's ultimately supply and demand. We have enough pilots but the supply says 'we don't want to move to PER'.

Well what's stopping them from advertising for and recruiting directly for 737 FO? Perth Base? Surely that can be done if people are needed in that job but no one in the company wants to do it?

It makes so much more sense than selecting people for one job and then on day one of recruitment asking them if they'd like to take a different one.

Slippery_Pete

9th Jun 2018, 09:48

Easy fix.

Make 737 FO more lucrative so that experienced SOs aren’t taking a pay cut.

Perhaps grandfather what they are earning in long haul.

dr dre

9th Jun 2018, 10:09

I doubt whether grandfathering would work. There would have to be an increase in pay to that level for all FO's then and I don't see that happening. Otherwise there would be FO's who have been on the 73 for years who are earning much less than those senior SOs who get to keep their SO pay and that wouldn't make for a happy crew.

SandyPalms

9th Jun 2018, 11:03

By the end of 2020 the Company won’t have any issue getting guys to the 737. The 747 will be gone, the A380 will be full. Unfortunately it will be 787 and A330 as a SO or the 737 for more money.

Aussie Fo

9th Jun 2018, 14:04

Easy fix.

Make 737 FO more lucrative so that experienced SOs aren’t taking a pay cut.

Perhaps grandfather what they are earning in long haul.

Your kidding right?

How about creating a system that rewards those who challenge themselves by taking promotion within a couple of years grace?

As far as why new recruits don’t want to take promotion, they appear to be slightly older than previously, as Keg said perhaps more settled, married with kids. They have probably just moved signed a lease and someone says “Do you want to move to Per/ADL ?}”

Of course not, it a bit late now. So do a three month course and then spend 1/2 years finding ones feet after a big year. Not to mention selling ones soul to the long days on the 737, and then add the commute in traffic.

The 787 and inevitable 747 RIN will eventually balance the situation out.

In the meantime, when RT stands up and stops the HR children running the show, from pilot recruitment to internal placements, their problems will be solved.

ruprecht

9th Jun 2018, 14:13

Perhaps grandfather what they are earning in long haul.

Oooo.... I like this grandfathering idea for senior SOs.

How much are we talking? :E

framer

9th Jun 2018, 20:24

Wish I was a Grandfathering SO

knobbycobby

9th Jun 2018, 23:52

I’m really surprised 737 Captain went so junior. FO I can understand going junior as LH SO pay is good although your not in a driving seat.
Most of the Captains earn $350k all up ++ Unless I’m being told BS. Hopefully only get better in this shortage.
Lots more time with family. No Night Flying, no jetlag, High hourly rate of pay. Bonus scheme. Rotating seniority.
HOBO seems keen on making sure the long transits are reduced and sick leave looks like it will be fixed.
Understand there will be junior bases as it’s a tough call to move families.Non East Coast cost of living a lot less if prepared to move.
Any idea when the slots for the next six 787 will be released?

High_To_Low

10th Jun 2018, 06:22

FYSTI

10th Jun 2018, 06:29

Lots more time with family.
HOBO seems keen on making sure the long transits are reduced
sick leave looks like it will be fixed.

Might want to check your assumptions, especially #1.
#2 you may want to consider doing 3 or 4 four leg days (2, 3 or 4 aircraft changes) at 11:45 TOD and SYD or MEL road traffic to contend with and 11 or 12 hours between sign-off and sign-on. The record is a roster that had 5 x 4 leg days in a row bouncing between SYD and either MEL or BNE. That was from a published roster without additional flying tacked on. Imagine doing that with a dozen or so aircraft changes.

I'm not surprised of the juniority at all, only about 20% of the commands are RHS ---> LHS.

Keg

10th Jun 2018, 07:18

Well what's stopping them from advertising for and recruiting directly for 737 FO? Perth Base? Surely that can be done if people are needed in that job but no one in the company wants to do it?

Its been suggested previously. I think the current EA prevents it.

I recommended getting those on hold to put in a letter of preference and taking people off the hold file for whatever position matches their LoP. Want a job quickly? 737 PER F/O for you (if suitable in other areas of course). Want to hold out for A380 S/O, May take 6-12 months.... or longer. Not sure of the legalities of this step and no doubt will take some background work to achieve.

Keg

10th Jun 2018, 07:22

Any news as to whether internal candidates are now simply just attending interviews as per the EOI sent to internals when applications opened in April or is it the entire assessment centre / simulator format?

internals May or May not need to do a sim depending on how they’ve fared at their respective group airline. I think they’re all doing an assessment centre. Not sure of psychometric testing.

High_To_Low

10th Jun 2018, 07:24

Thanks Keg��

SandyPalms

10th Jun 2018, 08:02

Knobby. I wouldn’t say you’ve been fed BS, but those figures would be the all in price for someone in Div 3, with an average of 75-80/BP. So probably not too much ++.
How many are up there, I’ve no idea.

Angle of Attack

10th Jun 2018, 08:20

[QUOTE][Might want to check your assumptions, especially #1.
#2 you may want to consider doing 3 or 4 four leg days (2, 3 or 4 aircraft changes) at 11:45 TOD and SYD or MEL road traffic to contend with and 11 or 12 hours between sign-off and sign-on. The record is a roster that had 5 x 4 leg days in a row bouncing between SYD and either MEL or BNE. That was from a published roster without additional flying tacked on. Imagine doing that with a dozen or so aircraft changes./QUOTE]

#1 Is definitely true far far more time at home compared to Longhaul unless your a senior baron just doing LAX returns then maybe not. I’ve been on both sides Shorthaul is vastly superior especially if you have kids. On one 6 day A330 trip your time away from base exceeds a shorthaul pilots TAFB in a whole monthly roster if they do day trips pretty much.

#2 Yes you are right but you are cherry picking the absolute worst of the lot, how about 9 days work in 28 doing DRW / PER returns from east coast? I’m cherry picking the best but as you know the truth is in the middle. But I agree with you that the crew/aircraft changes atm are completely ridiculous through the death corner ( Anywhere south east of a line BNE-ADL)

ruprecht

10th Jun 2018, 08:35

“death corner”

LOL

SandyPalms

10th Jun 2018, 08:48

Yes, it always seems to be a comparison of the worst of the worst shorthaul and the best of the best of long haul.

Angle of Attack

10th Jun 2018, 09:10

Lol and I’m serious MEL is a complete basket case these days and syd in general works better but can be a nightmare. I am including CBR and HBA in the death corner calculation, which is unjustified, but there’s so many morons on guard down there it makes it apolyctic, give me QLD and NT and WA and i’m happy.

FYSTI

10th Jun 2018, 10:07

AoA, my comments were regarding the surprising juniority of commands, I proffered some reasons why I believe this is the case. We can agree to disagree about the state and relative merits of shorthaul rostering, particularily the past 2 years, (and projected to be the same as far as the eye can see). Most FO's who gets a slot to LH expresses the same sentiment, "I'm never coming back to shorthaul for a command". Having said that, many have been on type for 7 to 10 years and are thoroughly fed up. Perhaps we only have a certain number of years of shorthaul in us all, particularly if dealing with "death corner"/ MEL all too often, and their Karma is all used up. That is why the slots have gone junior in my view.

Ultimately it is about each pilot judging what they want, and the judgement is in. What we think is irrelevant, they are voting with their bids, and many are not voting to take a 737 command.

SandyPalms

10th Jun 2018, 11:10

True FYSTI, But I think the thing that gets up people’s nose is the exaggeratd stories of how rubbish it must be in Shorthaul based on stories told on Longhaul flight decks. Most of the stuff I’ve heard about shorthaul is pretty much crap. I’ve lived both sides, twice so I think I’ve got a pretty good idea of what each one offers. I agree with knobby on pretty much everything. If you don’t want to fly shorthaul, cool, but don’t get on here and tell us how crap it must be. You may have been here and had a bad time. Fair enough. We all want the 5 day Tahiti slips, but life has moved on, and they are not coming back.
Yes we are working hard. And when you’re at the bottom of the rotating seniority it’s less than optimal (but even then it’s better then looking at the Pacific Ocean in the middle of the night) But we get paid for that hard work. And I’m making more as a 737 captain than I was when I was “ the pinnacle of FO jobs” when I was in Longhaul. So can we stop this rubbish about how crap it is, and let people make their assessement based on truth, real life experiences and numbers. If after that, You want no part of it, great.
i would love everybody to get a job in this outfit, so that everyone could have the choice, but many are not getting that chance. Good luck to all.

goodonyamate

10th Jun 2018, 11:34

No, it’s definitely crap. All you LH FO’s should stay in LH, for about 2 more training years 😂

then do as you please 👍🏻

maggot

11th Jun 2018, 06:56

Something else to remember is that the increased workload that the 737 crews are flying is relatively recent.
.

eeerrrrmmmm??

I don't think so, Tim /AlBorland

Also, HOBO is not trying to fix the long assed 4 sector 11:45 days. If they were they would've been fixed a decade ago....

Who cares what people think about SH, enjoy what you will :) I do

fearcampaign

11th Jun 2018, 07:00

Nicely said Sandypalms.
Having done both twice as well I’d agree there are Pluses and minuses to both.
The BS goes both ways too. Plenty of SH pilots saying that LH is all time off in the bunk and days off.
They forget that nearly 90% of flying is at night, in the wrong time zone and it’s f&$# long tours of duty. You don’t always get a break when your ready to sleep either. When your ready for bed that’s usually wake up call.PER/LHR is close to 20 hour TOD all night.
The longest LH trips are ten consecutive days away which is a long time away from family. Often takes you 4 days to somewhat recover from the jetlag and then your back into it again often without having recovered. Hard to do with kids! Something that those in the street or the office forget.
More likely they avoid it by being in the office. With many retirements due in years to come people will soon get to where they want to be a lot quicker than they imagined. I’m Sick of the morons perpetuating us and them. It’s ruining all our collective futures.
Rather than Whinge on here join the Committee and try to make a difference.

Angle of Attack

11th Jun 2018, 10:04

FYSTI, No I definitely agree with you regarding the rostering practises of the last 2 years, and particularly the multiple cabin crew, pilot , aircraft changes happening with min turnarounds within the last year, it’s completely ridiculous, and I notice they aren’t harping on about the on time schedules lately, because at least 60% of flights I’m on are late these days.

Sykes

11th Jun 2018, 14:15

eeerrrrmmmm??

I don't think so, Tim /AlBorland

Also, HOBO is not trying to fix the long assed 4 sector 11:45 days. If they were they would've been fixed a decade ago....

Who cares what people think about SH, enjoy what you will https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif I do

Maggot

You might want to read the post again, in the context it was written. I was comparing the SH workload with the Qlink Turboprop workload, which has been (more or less) 19-20 days flying per roster, averaging four sectors per day. It's been that (mostly) since 2014, was like that when I left late last year, and is apparently still like that.

If your SH workload has been similar to that since 2014 then I apologise, otherwise I'll stand by my "fairly recent" comment. Don't forget the other part of my post. A 10 year Dash Captain doing those hours earns around 150-160k.

I have no idea who "Tim" or "Al Borland" is. Certainly not me. I quit Qlink late last year; NOT to go to any other part of the Q group.

donpizmeov

11th Jun 2018, 14:34

Sykes, you need to watch more TV and find out who Tim the Toolman Taylor is .

Sykes

11th Jun 2018, 14:45

LOL! Didn't watch "Home Improvement" much when it was on, and not for well over 10 years. No idea about the reference. I'll assume it was meant to be something about something.

maggot

11th Jun 2018, 21:42

LOL! Didn't watch "Home Improvement" much when it was on, and not for well over 10 years. No idea about the reference. I'll assume it was meant to be something about something.

Hahaha mate no sweat
Just putting it out there, I know the turboprop crews are hard working.
Right now I think most are

Home improvement was such a bad 90s show but inexplicably popular. You haven't missed anything.

Stilllearning1234

14th Jun 2018, 06:33

Hey all,

This is long shot of a question, any idea when next opening will be?
What kind hours are they looking at and experience?

Thanks...
still...1234.

Berealgetreal

14th Jun 2018, 21:10

The Learmonth day is not so rosy but alas that's Network.
Where do they stay? The “sh!tshot” or the Novotel?

Max-Diff

14th Jun 2018, 23:08

Hey all,

This is long shot of a question, any idea when next opening will be?
What kind hours are they looking at and experience?

Thanks...
still...1234.

It's hard to say when the next intake will be given they've just had one and there's still folks from the first intake that are still yet to get start dates.

In terms of experience they're looking for, in the latest round of recruitment, I understand folks with 4000hrs turboprop command time were considered not competetive enough. Meanwhile folks with less total time and some jet airliner experience (albeit SO time) got invited to first stage testing. Not to say this trend will be followed next time (whenever that is).

Hope this helps.

Flyboy1987

15th Jun 2018, 01:07

It's hard to say when the next intake will be given they've just had one and there's still folks from the first intake that are still yet to get start dates.

In terms of experience they're looking for, in the latest round of recruitment, I understand folks with 4000hrs turboprop command time were considered not competetive enough. Meanwhile folks with less total time and some jet airliner experience (albeit SO time) got invited to first stage testing. Not to say this trend will be followed next time (whenever that is).

Hope this helps.

There are also guys with less than 1500TT that got in, so how are guys with 4000 hours not competitive based off a CV?

Anything they’re secretly looking for? Multi crew experience, instructors, age bracket?

GoldCoastTobacconist

15th Jun 2018, 01:46

Where do they stay? The “sh!tshot” or the Novotel?

Try a temp structure room built within the terminal with some old recliners and chairs. Snatching a hire car to town is also off limits ... would be similar to hanging out at Yardie Creek.

Sykes

15th Jun 2018, 02:43

There are also guys with less than 1500TT that got in, so how are guys with 4000 hours not competitive based off a CV?

Anything they’re secretly looking for? Multi crew experience, instructors, age bracket?

QF can afford to be picky at this point in time. Cathay Pacific pilots are leaving in droves and the Aussies are all trying to get back home, so hiring has been a win-win for both the pilots and Qantas. Ex-pat Aussies in the Middle East are looking to get back home. All these guys are either FO's or SO's flying wide-body international, so have plenty of experience in the type of flying that Qantas is going to employ them for.

Whether Qantas admit to it or not, there is a bias against internals. So if the 4000 hour guy is from Qlink, then it's going to be harder, esp. if he's a Captain.

Berealgetreal

15th Jun 2018, 03:30

How long do you spend at the terminal?

Turns out CX and EK wasn’t a good idea after all!

startno1

15th Jun 2018, 04:13

Anyone in the last round of recruitment think they completely f’ed the online tests but ended up getting a interview?
I knew they were going to be hard but holy 🤬

davidclarke

15th Jun 2018, 04:34

Anyone in the last round of recruitment think they completely f’ed the online tests but ended up getting a interview?
I knew they were going to be hard but holy 🤬

Same. I made an absolute mess of it. Was nothing like any practice exams I have done.
Time will tell if I go any further......

Keg

15th Jun 2018, 14:07

Whether Qantas admit to it or not, there is a bias against internals. So if the 4000 hour guy is from Qlink, then it's going to be harder, esp. if he's a Captain.

Sorry, that's complete and utter crap. QLink pilots (and other internal candidates) are being recruited into mainline in numbers that far exceed their ratio of total applicants. IE if internals make up 20% of total applicants they're making up 40-50% of S/Os starting at Qantas. What has occurred on occasion is that a QLink pilot has been deemed acceptable but told they're not starting for 6-8 months... or longer. Now that sometimes seems unfair but they're still better off in many cases than an external applicant with regional jet F/O or command time who was culled at CV stage.

For those feeling stunned by the online testing, don't sweat it. They're designed to be highly discriminatory. If you found them easy then you're either a freaking genius or you've not done as well as you thought you have. You also may not have done the same test someone else as the questions get harder depending on the aptitude you demonstrate along the way.

Sykes

15th Jun 2018, 21:58

Keg, your own words give it away:

QLink pilots (and other internal candidates) are being recruited into mainline in numbers that far exceed their ratio of total applicants.

I'm not talking about Network, J*, or Cobham. Just Turboprop.

Anyway, how would you know? You're seeing it from the mainline side. I saw it from the Turboprop side. When Qlink pilots applied to airlines like Cathay and Emirates the acceptance rate was well over 95%. Only TWO Qlink pilots were unsuccessful (one at each). Compared with Qantas, where only 51% of the Qlink pilots were successful. Qantas feedback saying why pilots were unsuccessful into mainline included "Sitting too aggressively at the interview" and "Not having enough customer focus" (both told to Captains).

One third of the 2008/2009 Cadets were told "no" when they re-applied a few years ago. These were people who'd already been accepted into mainline and were waiting for start dates back then, many of them were also Captains. The ONLY reason that Qlink pilots were made eligible AT ALL was to slow down the outpouring of Turboprop guys and girls to other airlines.

There are pilots at Qlink who were successful at their Qantas interviews TWO YEARS AGO who are still at Qlink because their start dates are still later this year.

New pilots joining Qlink are told that they're not allowed to apply for other Qantas group positions for at least two years.

No, no bias against them at all...

Keg

15th Jun 2018, 23:26

All pilots joining the group are told it’s two years wait for mainline. No bias against QLink drivers there. Many Network and JQ drivers have been delayed many months before starting at mainline. No bias against QLink drivers there either.

I know some specifics of some individuals that missed out and having been part of the process at the time I know for a fact there was n bias. Needless to say no recruitment system is perfect and I’ve voiced some of my thoughts to the relevant people internally. However some ex cadets and other internals that mainline has accepted as S/Os have very quickly earned reputations that aren’t flattering for them. So let’s not pretend that being a QLink Driver makes you a successful mainline pilot either.

The FACTS are that QLink drivers are over represented in S/O entrant numbers in a rate that far exceeds their percentage of total applicants. So make all the accusations of bias you like. The numbers being employed prove you wrong.

Keg

15th Jun 2018, 23:29

PS. With the hours that many pilots join QLink with they’re highly unlikely to be competitive in mainline assessment anyway. You’re probably better off as a low time pilot getting into the group and then applying than being outside. Particularly when 3000+ hour regional jet F/Os and many RAAF QFIs are being told ‘not competitive’.

Open Descent

16th Jun 2018, 00:16

startno1 & davidclarke

When my online testing concluded, in golfing parlance I didn't even think I'd hit it past the ladies tee!
When I got the call up for the assessment centre I was as genuinely surprised as anyone....

The feedback we got later down the track, and not from any official source I might add, was that correct answers are rewarded with a more difficult next question and so on...

Until you get the no letter consider yourself still in the game!

p.s. I hope my gender specific golfing analogy hasn't offended anyone :ouch:

QldPilotGuy

16th Jun 2018, 02:08

@OpenDescent I think the only minority group you offended were golfers and lets face it they don't count :D

Ladies, Gents, Transgender, Those of Ethnic Diversity, Religious Groups and Children, honestly I don't think there is any way that we can find rhyme or reason as to how they choose candidates. As someone who has a few thousand hours and over a thousand hours on the 737-800 with great Qantas references I still didn't make it to an interview. No hard feelings though, onwards and upwards to better things.

I think if anyone does eventually stumble onto the magic formula please share with the group, you will be praised as a God, unfortunately when that day comes I think we will also be seeing NOTAMS for "pigs flying on the approach"

Max-Diff

16th Jun 2018, 03:02

Anyone in the last round of recruitment think they completely f’ed the online tests but ended up getting a interview?
I knew they were going to be hard but holy 🤬

Yes mate absolutely. That also goes for everyone I know who scored an interview. The testing was extremely difficult so don't stress. Hang in there!

aviator777

16th Jun 2018, 03:19

Sounds like a particular brand of tests. The questions get exponentially more dificult as you progress, and in some categories you may not finish all the questions. I believe its about how far up the steep curve you get, and accuracy. In my experience of other aptitide testing it is quite common to feel like you didn't do well, and the result is positively surprising :-)

Sykes

16th Jun 2018, 03:23

Looks like I've triggered another Qantas pilot, LOL!

All pilots joining the group are told it’s two years wait for mainline. No bias against QLink drivers there.

You're not comparing the same apples as I am. You're saying that WITHIN THE GROUP, there isn't any bias against Qlink. That may be true, but that's NOT what I said.

Many Network and JQ drivers have been delayed many months before starting at mainline. No bias against QLink drivers there either.

Same argument. Within the group there may be no bias.

However some ex cadets and other internals that mainline has accepted as S/Os have very quickly earned reputations that aren’t flattering for them.

Not relevant to anything I've said.

So let’s not pretend that being a QLink Driver makes you a successful mainline pilot either.

GOLD! Virgin, Cathay Pacific, Emirates, and Dragonair all may beg to differ. The word on the street was, was that most of those airlines considered Qlink to be one of the best training schools around. But not good enough for Qantas mainline. You know what that makes you sound like? Starts with "S" and rhymes with.... skygod!

All your so-called "FACTS" prove is that you have one interpretation and I have another. And the "fact" that "Qlink drivers are over represented".. hang on, in your previous post it was "Qlink and other group pilots", now it's just Qlink pilots. Not being "rubbery" with our FACTS now, are we?

itsnotthatbloodyhard

16th Jun 2018, 03:46

:rolleyes:
As any Pprune discussion having anything to do with Qantas gets longer, the probability that someone will invoke the term “skygod” approaches 1.0. This is known as Skygodwin’s Law.

Not sure that Keg was the one who was triggered, to be honest.

Going Nowhere

16th Jun 2018, 04:16

Skyes,

There are brand new F/O’s at QLink who have only just been checked to line (so less than 6-9months in the company) who have interviews at QF next month.

Times have changed since you left.

startno1

16th Jun 2018, 04:17

Cheers for the comments, puts the mind at ease a little.

Keg

16th Jun 2018, 08:17

Goodness gracious Sykes. Get over yourself. Triggered? That’s what you call it when people who actually have good gen challenge your ill informed and inaccurate information? You crack me up! Thanks for the Skygod label too. That was particularly funny. The last refuge of those with NFI.

I’ve seen the numbers. I know that internal group pilots as a total (including QLink pilots) are over represented in the hiring stats. You keeping on banging that ‘bias’ drum won’t make it correct or accurate.

Not everyone who tells you’re wrong is the enemy. But by all means you do you and maintain that firm chip on the shoulder.

Seagull201

16th Jun 2018, 09:15

I've been following the posts all day and here are a few points.

1. C.V presentation: isn't the problem with getting a job with QF mainline.

2. Psychometric testing: It appears QF have over done it, with the psychometric testing on this occasion.
The company should have stated in the job requirements, that an Engineering University Degree was needed.

3: Sykes: Everything you written is correct.
What you have forgotten, is, when a person gets into Qlink (Dash 8), then "QF Mainline", wants them to stay there, not 2 years, but for life!

4. Keg: You appear to be in QF management. I'm sure you are.
**The problem with Qlink/internal applicants is, all pilots should have a seniority number on commencement of employment!
**If Qlink pilots can wear a QF uniform and accept a lower pay scale than "mainline", then they should at least have a QF seniority number,
whilst flying the Dash 8 or B717.
**If Qlink pilots had a seniority number, then, there "wouldn't" be this so called "mainline recruitment", and staff (pilots) could bid for future positions,
within the QF group.

Keg, there shouldn't be this division of QF mainline and Qlink , every pilot should have seniority number, whether they're an F/O on the Dash8
or an A380 Captain, every pilot should work and advance within the QF group.(This has to change, if there's a will for the change).

5. Second Officers: Look, QF should have a programme, where S/O's are upgrade to "trainee first officer status", after 3 years.
Meaning, they fly at least 1 leg a month and participate in at least 1 take off and landing a month.
It's more value to the person and company, instead of a person sitting in the seat behind, for a decade and struggling with promotional upgrades to F/O roles.

6. Something has to eventually give, where "mainline and qlink pilots", are under a single seniority list, and under a "single QF Group banner".

Tankengine

16th Jun 2018, 10:00

Seagull,
4: Keg is not management
5: On long haul types there is not enough landings for captains, first officers and second officers to stay current.
6: Good luck with arguing that with management, we have been trying for years.

Keg

16th Jun 2018, 11:01

4. Keg: You appear to be in QF management. I'm sure you are.

lol. Mate, you’re obviously new to PPRUNE! My real identity is pretty well known. Not management. Just a pilot. I’ve dabbled in a few things over the years. Management (at least in Qantas) isn’t yet one of them.

**The problem with Qlink/internal applicants is, all pilots should have a seniority number on commencement of employment!

i dont expect you to search through 5000 posts over nearly 20 years but agreed. Not sure how old you are but if you’re younger than 30 a bunch of us in mainline have been pushing this barrow since you were in primary school. It’s not without nuance though. More on that shortly.

**If Qlink pilots can wear a QF uniform and accept a lower pay scale than "mainline", then they should at least have a QF seniority number,
whilst flying the Dash 8 or B717.

Interestingly it hasn’t always been the same uniform. I think it was probably 2010 or thereabouts when the QF board recognised the presence, or cache that came with the ‘Qantas pilot’ uniform. Suddenly it was expanded far and wide. Beyond that I’m not sure of the relevance of the unfiform to the point you’re making. Do you think because you wear the same uniform you’ve already demonstrated everything you need to be a mainline pilot and should naturally progress? Now I’m already on record that I believe in group seniority but that doesn’t give you carte Blanche to walk into mainline without demonstrating you’re suitable! No doubt most regional pilots are but it’s clear from this thread that some most definitely aren’t. Interestingly too there are multiple accounts of former regional pilots struggling with adjusting to losing a couple of stripes and the new role. That’s cool. I get it. Been there myself losing a stripe. I’m trying to work out why though those stories are almost all about Dash 8 pilots. Rarely about the ex JQ F/Os, or the ex Network, etc. Rarely about externals either.

The unform is a clown costume designed to generate social media buzz. You’re re deluding yourself if you think it carries any more weight than that. What does carries weight (apart from my stomach area) is doing the job.

5. Second Officers: Look, QF should have a programme, where S/O's are upgrade to "trainee first officer status", after 3 years. Meaning, they fly at least 1 leg a month and participate in at least 1 take off and landing a month.

OK. Now I need to ask. How old are you and how long have you been in ‘the group’? You’ve clearly got no idea about mainline operations. Tankengine has kindly addressed this issue but when you’re only getting two landings a month- I did 11 in 6 months as an A380 F/O- there’s barely enough to share around to maintain competence let alone taking a low time S/O and expecting them to improve.

6. Something has to eventually give, where "mainline and qlink pilots", are under a single seniority list, and under a "single QF Group banner".

As previously stated I’m a fan of a group list but there is an undercurrent of entitlement in your entire post Seagull that is quite troubling. It’s the same attitude that I’ve alluded to earlier in my post and what some Dash 8 crew have struggled with in mainline. Even with a group list I wouldn’t expect to be automatically granted a Dash 8 Command (say) when I turn 65. After so many years in mainline I may not be suitable for what is a somewhat different role. I’d expect to have to jump through a few hoops first- and I don’t just mean line training. Or is QLink so desperate that two arms, two legs, a pilot’s license and a pulse gets you a gig? Maybe that explains the attitudes.

Street garbage

16th Jun 2018, 11:13

Keg in Management...yeah...no.

StupidsexyFlanders

16th Jun 2018, 14:38

Don’t shoot the messenger...

You might agree with Keg or not but he’s the only one providing accurate information if you read this thread from beginning to now...

Beer Baron

17th Jun 2018, 01:49

When Qlink pilots applied to airlines like Cathay and Emirates the acceptance rate was well over 95%. Only TWO Qlink pilots were unsuccessful (one at each). Compared with Qantas, where only 51% of the Qlink pilots were successful.
Wow, no wonder you feel hard done by when you set your expectations this high. I’d have thought a 51% success rate was pretty good. Expecting that nearly every single applicant (95%) should be successful because they worked at QLink is a bit delusional I’m afraid. What about RAAF applicants? What about applicants from JQ, VA, EK, CX, etc.?

When there are over a thousand applicants for less than 200 jobs in a year, a lot of high quality pilots will get rejected sadly. It is not to say that they are not good enough to do the job but simply that there are more good candidates than jobs available.

Given there was no recruitment for around 8 years there is sure to be a backlog of high quality candidates. This will lessen in time and the good news is that Qantas recruitment will continue for a good few years yet so people who have been knocked back today may get a different response a year or two down the track (if they are still interested that is).

aussiebushflyer

17th Jun 2018, 02:14

At the end of the day someone at Qlink has a better chance of getting into mainline than from outside the company - just how it should be. Also what about internals to Jetstar for Qlink is there any numbers here?

Slippery_Pete

17th Jun 2018, 02:27

Sorry, that's complete and utter crap. QLink pilots (and other internal candidates) are being recruited into mainline in numbers that far exceed their ratio of total applicants. IE if internals make up 20% of total applicants they're making up 40-50% of S/Os starting at Qantas.

The problem with statistics, Keg, is that 99% of the population can be conned into believing anything because they don’t have the brain space to see past bull**** numbers.

The statistics above which were fed to you might be true, but that it proves there is no embargo - that’s the utter crap you talk of.

QF minimums are terribly low compared to what you generally need to make you competitive. What that means, is that every joe blow guy instructing at the local aero club with 1000 C172 hours can apply.

But nearly all of these get cut because they aren’t competitive - so your 20% statistic might technically be correct, but it doesn’t mean that QLink applicants are over represented. You need to compare QLink applicants to applicants with similar experience.

Two other things I wish to take you to task on:
1. I have many mates who have been through the QLink process over the years. None of them were told “minimum 2 year wait for another group airline.”
2. Hold file places mean jack ****. It’s all well and good until you sit on it for three years and then they stop hiring.

If you want to spruke statistics, give us these numbers:
percentage of Rex guys who have ACTUALLY STARTED/rex guys who applied, compared to:
percentage of QLink guys who have ACTUALLY STARTED/QLink guys who applied.

That’s called comparing apples with apples.

And while were on it, I know of several Cobham guys who have been “on hold” with Jetstar for 12+ months. Meanwhile, pilots applying from non QF group regionals are getting start dates inside 2 months of applying and jumping guys with significant jet command.

I have always respected your PPrune contributions Keg - since day 1. But please think a bit more carefully about the statistics you spew out for them. Either that, or I need to increase my kool-aid intake.

betterluckythangood

17th Jun 2018, 03:35

G'day External QF Hopefuls,

I've been a long-time lurker on here but did the QF psychometric testing last weekend which gave me inspiration for this username. I felt like a muppet and guessed my way through many of the questions, particularly the logic ones! I have low expectations but everyone I've spoken to said they found them tricky. I'm a little worried I'll start convulsing if I come across a road sign with randomly pointing arrows...

Without wanting to sound presumptuous, I have a question for previously successful applicants - if you get an invite to the assessment day, how much notice do they give you? and do they give you a range of dates for you to select from or just one?

Thanks in advance!

BLTG

Sykes

17th Jun 2018, 03:52

KEG, what we have is a difference of opinion based on our differing viewpoints and differing “data sets” that we each have.

Where it gets silly is that all I did originally was to put up my opinion, instead of starting with “Sorry, that’s complete and utter crap...” Who would have guessed that I’d come back here and defend myself?

“Ill informed... inaccurate information” How so?

Was my then CP lying when he stated that only 51% of Dash pilots were successful? Was my own experience when speaking with pilots regarding the success rate of pilots into Cathay and Emirates ill informed? Did the 1/3 of the 2008/9 Cadets who failed their re-assessment into mainline not happen? Are there not pilots at Qantaslink who successfully passed their mainline interviews two years ago still waiting for their December start date?

I’m reasonably certain that you’re flying with ex-link drivers who can confirm all that I’ve said.

Nothing in your claim that the turboprop guys are over-represented (and I notice you still include other internals) invalidates anything I’ve stated. You may care to note that nowhere have I said that YOUR information is “ill informed or inaccurate” apart from wanting you to separate Qlink from the other internals. You may also care to note that I’m not disputing what you’ve said.

It just doesn’t change my opinion.

The reason it doesn’t change my opinion is that if Qantaslink management had their way there would be ZERO turboprop guys getting mainline gigs. The only reason that the pathway has opened is to try to prevent the outpouring of pilots to other carriers. The amount of guys getting in is kept low enough to encourage people to stay, but minimising as much as possible the impact on the turboprop operation.

As for calling you a Skygod, if you write stuff like So let’s not pretend that being a QLink Driver makes you a successful mainline pilot either. you can expect some incoming. If you can’t take crap, don’t dish it out. (Love the “skygodwin law” btw).

Once again, many of those TP drivers who fell under the category of “lets not pretend...” are now Captains at Virgin and Dragonair, and in two years some will be widebody captains for Emirates.

So if you’ve got any real arguments, instead of telling me that I’m wrong and abuse such as “NFI, or chips on shoulders”, please come back with them.

Otherwise, you’re just being boring.

The Green Goblin

17th Jun 2018, 04:34

Keg does his best on here to give you an informed opinion.

You can listen to it. Or not. I’m sure he’s not going to lose sleep over it. Skygodwins law is a laugh though.

As for Qlink to QF. Yes there’s a few waiting a while. I know of a couple too. It sucks when you’re waiting. However that’s life. QF are running a business. They need the fleet in all devisions flying.

If you don’t like it. Vote with your feet. If enough do. Perhaps the system will change. Perhaps it won’t.

After you hit 40, life goes on. Its all the same. Kids. Mortgage. Wife. Husband. Bills. More bills. Sims. Flying pays for your life and being present with the family, which is more important than SJS with a brand on the tail.

itsnotthatbloodyhard

17th Jun 2018, 05:15

As for calling you a Skygod, if you write stuff like
Quote:
So let’s not pretend that being a QLink Driver makes you a successful mainline pilot either.

you can expect some incoming.

Sykes, I think you might be being oversensitive about that particular remark and not taking the way it was intended. The fact is that we’ve occasionally seen that being a short haul driver doesn’t necessarily make you a successful long haul pilot, and being a long haul pilot doesn’t guarantee you’ll be a successful short haul pilot. Likewise, being a mainline pilot doesn’t guarantee you’ll be a successful QLink driver - and Keg actually said as much, if you read what he wrote. Taken in that context, playing the Skygod card is something of an overreaction, don’t you think?

Keg

17th Jun 2018, 09:57

Nothing in your claim that the turboprop guys are over-represented (and I notice you still include other internals) invalidates anything I’ve stated.

Geez, you’re like a dog with a bone on this line that mainline has a set against QLink pilots. ALL group pilots are over represented as a percentage of total applicants. This includes QLink pilots. Basically what I’m saying is that externals who are more qualified, more experienced but just happen to be external pilots have missed out to give priority to those within the group.

Does se this mean all within the group will get in? No. Some will deal themselves out of contention by how they perform at either psych/ skills, or at assessment centre. Does this mean if successful that they will get in straight away? No. Many have had to wait some months to get in. The longest I’ve heard was 15 months from when they were advised they were successful to their projected start date. A total of some two years from initial application.

Now you choose to interpret these things as a ‘bias’ against QLink. I see it as the most positive thing for QLink pilots since Qantas started recruiting again after an 8 year hiatus. Many of us older generation certainly remember the days when we took virtually no one from internal subsidiaries and the most likely move for a QLink driver to make was to become an F/O was with Ansett (prior to 2001) and VOZ (post 2001).

Was the QLink CP right about his numbers? I’ve no idea. I presume so and I’ll take you at your word on those numbers. Having been a part of the process assessing the ex cadets and LOI holders I can guarantee there was no bias, direction or other riding instructions against QLink pilots. Were all the recruiting decisions made over the last couple of years correct? Gosh no. We probably said ‘no’ to some who would be great and I know for sure we’ve said ‘yes’ to a few who have demonstrated oh so clearly that we got it very wrong. That still doesn’t demonstrate bias.

So for the avoidance of doubt, I’ll make it clear again. If you’re a low time GA pilot (say less than 2000 hrs) my opinion is that you’re a bigger chance of getting into Qantas in a few years if you go via QLink than if you hold out to be a DE 3500 hour pilot.

One more point. When I’ve sat across from an applicant I want them to do well- same with virtually all of the other recruiters. I watch the body language. I see the sweaty palms, the dry mouths, the stumbling over words, the internal chaos that comes at various times during an assessment centre. My heart breaks if someone is struggling- though less so if I’m watching someone arrogantly dig their own grave... and some certainly do. The individual pilot fronting up for interview is the greatest determinate of whether or not they’ll get through. Not what airline they think mainline may be biased against.

Keg

17th Jun 2018, 10:03

Sykes, I think you might be being oversensitive about that particular remark and not taking the way it was intended. The fact is that we’ve occasionally seen that being a short haul driver doesn’t necessarily make you a successful long haul pilot, and being a long haul pilot doesn’t guarantee you’ll be a successful short haul pilot. Likewise, being a mainline pilot doesn’t guarantee you’ll be a successful QLink driver - and Keg actually said as much, if you read what he wrote. Taken in that context, playing the Skygod card is something of an overreaction, don’t you think?

I’ll take it a step further. Anyone that thinks because they’re a regional pilot they can/ should be/ must be as good as a mainline pilot has just demonstrated precisely why they’re not. The same applies to any mainline pilot that presumes the reverse. As itsnotthatboodyhard so rightly points out even within mainline we have crew who struggle in the different worlds of the different hauls. Most don’t. Some do. But those who arrogantly presume they’re good enough because they’re in the group? You’re in for a rude shock.

Aussie Fo

17th Jun 2018, 10:39

Honestly sometimes things don’t work out for a reason.

Qantas isn’t everything. Different airlines look for different things. Sykes you appear pretty “ head strong”. Perhaps Qantas identified you’d be a great Captain but not suited to a 15 year stint as a So/Fo.

Chase those airlines that provide a short time to Command.

As a Qantas employee, trust me the system isn’t perfect. We all know of the ones who got in who make a name for themselves. But on Balance 95% of the guys and Girls are great people to work with.

i don’t doubt that a amazing number of people fall by the way side. There are a limited number of positions. Qantas/ media talk up a lax, of pilots but the reality is I think 250 at most in 18 months after 8 yers of nothing. And yes there is a shortage much worse in the Dash 8 ranks. But they aren’t going to pilfer themselves!

Keg I would ask, Does anyone oversee the process after pilots loose involvement? At what point does HR get a final decision?

i think everyone would love a group seniority list

take care everyone. Tomorrow’s a better day and there are a lot of airlines who want their own personalities.

the grass isn’t always greener somewhere else, but it does grow in lots of places

Rated De

17th Jun 2018, 10:58

Does anyone oversee the process after pilots loose(sic) involvement? At what point does HR get a final decision?

The problem for many airlines is that HR is wedged into every conversation, everything that generates 'performance management' is a work input for them. Generating 'work' is self fulfilling: Control the process and your department survives.
At a particular airline of our experience so entrenched was HR, that flight operations was given a recommended list.The assessment in a simulator a binary outcome. Effectively what was a technical job was reduced and controlled by administration. That was literally all, the process had been captured.

The airline in this example realised a substantial problem with new pilots; issues of training and conversion came to light. It took time but eventually some hardy souls dared to challenge the recruitment templates. What was found was really insightful. HR had looked for mirrors of themselves; those well versed in corporate process, an eye for administrative detail and importantly a willingness to acquiesce. Such traits were not what the airline concerned thought was in the best interests of flight safety.

Removing HR from the process was costly and designing the replacement model found them back where they started before the dark art got control.

wombat watcher

17th Jun 2018, 11:35

The problem for many airlines is that HR is wedged into every conversation, everything that generates 'performance management' is a work input for them. Generating 'work' is self fulfilling: Control the process and your department survives.
At a particular airline of our experience so entrenched was HR, that flight operations was given a recommended list.The assessment in a simulator a binary outcome. Effectively what was a technical job was reduced and controlled by administration. That was literally all, the process had been captured.

The airline in this example realised a substantial problem with new pilots; issues of training and conversion came to light. It took time but eventually some hardy souls dared to challenge the recruitment templates. What was found was really insightful. HR had looked for mirrors of themselves; those well versed in corporate process, an eye for administrative detail and importantly a willingness to acquiesce. Such traits were not what the airline concerned thought was in the best interests of flight safety.

Removing HR from the process was costly and designing the replacement model found them back where they started before the dark art got control.

what is this “ our experience” bullsh#t?
You are a navel gazer of the first order.
you do know don’t you that it can make you go blind.... wanking I mean.

Guest123

17th Jun 2018, 11:48

And while were on it, I know of several Cobham guys who have been “on hold” with Jetstar for 12+ months. Meanwhile, pilots applying from non QF group regionals are getting start dates inside 2 months of applying and jumping guys with significant jet command.

This back room deal is affecting the whole of Cobham, not just the 717 drivers. It can’t be legal. I hope there’s light at the end of the tunnel for them.

A320 Flyer

17th Jun 2018, 13:24

Of the 8 that ended up on my 330 course last year - 2 were JQ 320 FOs and 2 were Dash 8 captains.... exactly a 50% representation from the group.

Even if its a small sample of the 250+ recently recruited I'd say this is quite a good representation. Interestingly 2 from each group company.

It is my understanding that once a group pilot has been offered a position on the hold file, even if mainline wants them last week it's up to their current employer to release them to take up the position. This could be leading to some of the delays for Qlink pilots mentioned in previous posts.

Also for what its worth when I'm meeting new guys out on line most of them are surprised I'm not "off the dash". This leads me to believe Qlink pilots have been largely represented in recent recruitment.

TimmyTee

17th Jun 2018, 13:49

If the success rate is 50% for Qlink drivers, what's the success rate for female Qlink applicants? As keg said there's no bias or agenda, so obviously the success rate would be pretty close to 50%.. (Only ask as a mate reckons it's closer to 90% getting in)

dragon man

17th Jun 2018, 21:45

mattyj

18th Jun 2018, 12:34

What’s the trick to withdrawing your Qantas workday applications? It says you can do it in the initial page but there seems to be no mechanism..?

a380neo

18th Jun 2018, 18:30

Anyone know the average time to get onto a 73 at the moment after joining with previous jet experience? And chances of getting MEL are?

Cheers in advance folks.

engine out

18th Jun 2018, 21:02

In the latest round Brooke who joined around October got Melbourne 73 slots for training later this year.

DirectAnywhere

18th Jun 2018, 22:58

MEL 737 F/O was the most junior position in the recently released training slots for the next 12 months.

I don't have a current seniority list, but I would suggest it's currently under 12 months from joining to an F/O spot on the 737 in Melbourne. This may change rapidly.

Although Perth has traditionally been the most junior base, Keg opined elsewhere that the reason MEL may be more junior now is base balancing. ie. the company can't find the F/Os wanting to become Captains they need who are willing to go to Perth so there's no point sending a bunch of F/Os to Perth if there's no-one to fly with. Makes sense to this casual observer as the most junior 737 command in Perth was about 80 numbers junior to the most junior in Melbourne.

It's either that or they reckon they've got the numbers right in Perth as the Network flying starts to expand. :suspect:

ilikecheese

18th Jun 2018, 23:18

I don't have a current seniority list, but I would suggest it's currently under 12 months from joining to an F/O spot on the 737 in Melbourne. This may change rapidly

For better with residual training slots or worse with the traffic jam in the training department?

Keg

18th Jun 2018, 23:34

Although Perth has traditionally been the most junior base, Keg opined elsewhere that the reason MEL may be more junior now is base balancing. ie. the company can't find the F/Os wanting to become Captains they need who are willing to go to Perth so there's no point sending a bunch of F/Os to Perth if there's no-one to fly with. Makes sense to this casual observer as the most junior 737 command in Perth was about 80 numbers junior to the most junior in Melbourne.

It's either that or they reckon they've got the numbers right in Perth as the Network flying starts to expand. :suspect:

Close but other way around. Lack of S/Os bidding for PER 737 F/O. They’ve got people bidding for PER 737 Captain.

I don’t rule out a bit of your last point though. What will tell the tale is if the number of 737 crew overnighting in PER increases.

a380neo

19th Jun 2018, 12:13

Cheers for the quick replies!

So the current procedure is to apply as an S/O then bid for a 73 position and base? Or would QF take a direct entry 73 F/O?

DirectAnywhere

19th Jun 2018, 21:13

You would have to join as a S/O and then bid for a promotion accordingly. There are no DEFOs or DECs to mainline.

The only time time I recall it happening was post Ansett collapse in 2001 and I believe that was for a specified period in rank only.

If if you haven’t applied yet though - sounds like you haven’t - you might be waiting a while from here. They’ve just really started processing another 500 applicants after rejecting another few hundred.

Strutter

27th Jun 2018, 23:16

Anybody heard anything after the last round of Psycho testing?

betterluckythangood

28th Jun 2018, 09:59

Hey Strutter - I'm still waiting to hear after doing the psycho testing as an external applicant. Confidence is low though, found the testing pretty tricky! Good luck!

WannaBeBiggles

28th Jun 2018, 22:35

If if you haven’t applied yet though - sounds like you haven’t - you might be waiting a while from here. They’ve just really started processing another 500 applicants after rejecting another few hundred.

500 went to psychometric testing? Out of all the people I know that applied this round, ranging from TP FO's through to Jet captains, only one person got through to psychometric testing, most got the "Your application is not progressing for the the Second Officer role, but other companies in the group are interested and will be in touch" email.

High_To_Low

29th Jun 2018, 00:08

Welcome to ‘recruit to group’. Funnily enough I haven’t heard of a single internal NOT getting an interview. Things are certainly changing for the better within the QANTAS group and they are realising looking after the employees they already have and offering career progression will pay dividends long term.

Keg

29th Jun 2018, 00:55

High_To_Low

29th Jun 2018, 01:00

Hi Keg

I 100% agree with you but as we all know it was the other way around for the last couple decades where it was an ‘unwritten rule’ that if you wanted to join QF go to Rex, if you wanted VA join Qlink. Imagine how many good guys they missed out on from the internals due to this policy. Works both ways.....

AviatoR21

29th Jun 2018, 01:13

Isn’t that where QF will ‘train’ the less capable pilot to the appropriate standard?

At the moment capability isn’t helping employ you, it’s whether you tick all the HR focused boxes. Many a capable pilot have been turned down to not demonstrating a HR focused response in the interview.

Strutter

29th Jun 2018, 01:21

Hey Strutter - I'm still waiting to hear after doing the psycho testing as an external applicant. Confidence is low though, found the testing pretty tricky! Good luck!

Yes, you and I both found it pretty tricky! Goodluck!

Gligg

29th Jun 2018, 02:05

The dark arts should be an ATPL subject ;-)

Popgun

29th Jun 2018, 06:16

‘Pay dividends’? Depends on what outcome you are seeking as to whether you view the dividend being paid as a good thing or not. I’m all for offering a pathway for those within the group but if the result of that is a more capable pilot misses out from externally and we take someone less capable (but still ‘suitable’) internally then that’s may not be the best outcome for mainline in the long term.
There is an implied assumption here that HR-controlled pilot recruitment at QF mainline hires the most capable candidate.

Once upon a time perhaps....but I think most of us can see that this is not necessarily or consistently the case in these days of HR mumbo jumbo!

PG

DirectAnywhere

29th Jun 2018, 18:47

WannabeBiggles, Keg will have a better idea of the numbers, but the word was that in the applications that closed recently there were roughly 800 applicants to mainline of whom some 300 were deemed uncompetitive at the application stage for whatever reason, leaving 500 for stage two.

34R

30th Jun 2018, 09:13

There is an implied assumption here that HR-controlled pilot recruitment at QF mainline hires the most capable candidate.

Once upon a time perhaps....but I think most of us can see that this is not necessarily or consistently the case in these days of HR mumbo jumbo!

PG

I would suggest in the history of pilot recruitment, NEVER could it be said that consistently are the most capable candidates hired.

Are you are implying that beacause some great guys and girls are missing out because of HR oddities, that somehow those that are successful are, by virtue of the fact that HR have liked them, not able to be considered as competent?

Those that have been successful to date put their application in early, realised they would have to play the game to progress and prepared themselves as best they could to make it so. Some went through, some didn’t.

Qantas, along with every other airline and even the ADF have been guilty of overlooking some tremendously capable people over the journey, while at the same time allowing some people you wouldn’t perhaps place in the same category to slip through. This isn’t a new development.

megan

1st Jul 2018, 03:57

Qantas, along with every other airline and even the ADF have been guilty of overlooking some tremendously capable people over the journey One does wonder what they look for in a candidate, three folks received rejections recently having 7k hours, single pilot IMC in the most challenging conditions to be found in Oz. Over qualified, or a fear that they would have to unlearn many ingrained habits?

Max-Diff

1st Jul 2018, 05:20

One does wonder what they look for in a candidate, three folks received rejections recently having 7k hours, single pilot IMC in the most challenging conditions to be found in Oz. Over qualified, or a fear that they would have to unlearn many ingrained habits?

It has been said elsewhere on this thread that experience doesn't count for anything with QF. This is absolutely true for the assessment day stage. However assuming the aforementioned rejection letters are being received prior to psychometric testing, it looks as though they're looking for resumes indicating previous jet airliner experience this time round, only because there's so many expat candidates from Asia and the Middle East with that sort of experience. There's guys and girls with a lot less time than 7000hrs being called up for testing but I think you'll find they have wide body jet FO or SO experience.

Flyboy1987

1st Jul 2018, 05:57

[QUOTE. There's guys and girls with a lot less time than 7000hrs being called up for testing but I think you'll find they have wide body jet FO or SO experience.[/QUOTE]

Yep. I know of a few who went to Cathay 2 years ago with 300 hours total time. 18 months as a SO and now getting into mainline. Meanwhile the 7000 hour regional turboprop captains aren’t given the opportunity to sit aptitude testing. Makes you wonder.

pilotchute

1st Jul 2018, 08:15

I want to know how these CX SO's who only stayed for 2 years are getting out of their bond.

Brakerider

1st Jul 2018, 08:22

I want to know how these CX SO's who only stayed for 2 years are getting out of their bond.

absolutely no integrity

Tankengine

1st Jul 2018, 09:23

absolutely no integrity
The S/Os or CX? ;)

yunebug

1st Jul 2018, 16:41

Do they hire from Europe?

pilotchute

1st Jul 2018, 22:51

In the example given the SO joined CX with 300TT so defiantly no ATPL.. Non ATPL holders are actually required to stay for 5 years, not 3.

jetlikespeeds

2nd Jul 2018, 07:04

absolutely no integrity

Unfortunately, the industry is rapidly going the way of no integrity from both sides of the fence, whether management or employee. Well done to those that want to further their career I reckon. Airline management will do their best to undercut and undermine staff at the drop of a hat, which is inspiring a whole generation of new employees that hold no allegiance to a company anymore. That’s the way they want it so you have to play them at their own game.

Max-Diff

3rd Jul 2018, 16:21

Do they hire from Europe?

QF don't specifically hire from anywhere- they only take pilots with an Australian CPL or ATPL at this stage.

maggot

3rd Jul 2018, 18:53

QF don't specifically hire from anywhere- they only take pilots with an Australian CPL or ATPL at this stage.

If it's an easy conversion just tick the ausATPL box!!

cLeArIcE

3rd Jul 2018, 21:33

absolutely no integrity
Show integrity..? To CX? Hahahaha. Hell would sooner freeze over before CX showed its employees any integrity Why would you expect the pilots to show any back?

startno1

4th Jul 2018, 02:38

Looks like emails have gone out regarding the Talentq results.

Strutter

4th Jul 2018, 03:26

Yes.Goodluck to all.

Altimeters

4th Jul 2018, 04:44

Yep it's a no for me. Oh well...life goes on...

betterluckythangood

4th Jul 2018, 08:47

I got a thanks, but no thanks. Apparently they will be in touch about options within the broader Qantas group...

woodja51

4th Jul 2018, 08:58

SHVC

4th Jul 2018, 10:40

Yes for me.

stormfury

4th Jul 2018, 11:34

Don’t feel too bad , I got a no as well today after the psych tests .
21000 hours 10 000A3303000B777 international command .. maybe too qualified but not up to scratch mentally I guess.
But worth a shot to see how far I gotHave you thought of places other than airlines? I note corporate jobs are being advertised - not something readily seen in in AUS previously.

betterluckythangood

4th Jul 2018, 11:45

I got a thanks but no thanks - other group people will be in touch apparently...

Flyboy1987

5th Jul 2018, 04:30

I’ve heard that the first phase of cutting applicants is done entirely digitally? Zero human input when CV’s are sent in and online applications completed.
Anyone know if this is correct?

Keg

5th Jul 2018, 05:52

It’s absolutely and categorically incorrect. I can name the three pilots who looked at every CV of those who met the minimum requirements and ranked candidates accordingly.

These pilots had no involvement in determining which candidates subsequently received emails inviting to online testing or the other email about group opportunities. That line in the sand was determined by ‘others’.

That said, if you don’t meet the requirements when you submit your online application, that aspect of it is automated and you’ll receive an automated response. Perhaps that part of the process is being misunderstood?

Flyboy1987

5th Jul 2018, 05:56

wishiwasupthere

5th Jul 2018, 06:52

other group people will be in touch apparently...

Have you thought about this wonderful opportunity to be a Dash 8 FO, or a Fokker FO on a substandard contract?

Thanks, but no thanks.

TimmyTee

5th Jul 2018, 07:50

Have you thought about this wonderful opportunity to be a Dash 8 FO, or a Fokker FO on a substandard contract?

Thanks, but no thanks.

Who wouldn’t want to be on a B scale* (or is that C?) on a Dash?

(*B scale can be avoided by simply completing a $10-20k flight test on a B200)

Seagull201

5th Jul 2018, 08:18

Have you thought about this wonderful opportunity to be a Dash 8 FO, or a Fokker FO on a substandard contract?

Thanks, but no thanks.

If a person gets into QF mainline as a pilot, they get in.

If they don't and are offered something else, whether it's only a Dash 8 position, they should take it.

Life goes on, there are other opportunities in aviation, with other companies world wide.

There's no need for people to get a headache, if they don't get accepted by QF.

QF have got their culture and way of doing things.

blumoon

5th Jul 2018, 19:59

Lapon

5th Jul 2018, 23:01

[QUOTEso so last time was a yes to testing...

no change to CV besides more experience....[/QUOTE]

It would appear that last time everyone who met the requirements was offered testing, this time a human intervened first to offer testing to select individuals.
Why the testing acts as such an important primary tool to determine who is interviewed only will Qantas know, but its their train set.

lo_lyf

6th Jul 2018, 02:40

From what I've heard and from reading this thread, a pattern is emerging where it seems many externals are being given options to be assessed for the group subsidiaries depending on how they go, or think they went, in the mainline testing. Perhaps there is going to be more of a focus to keep the morale up in the subsidiaries and get more internals progressing.

pilotchute

6th Jul 2018, 05:17

Whatever the plan or "focus" is right now. It will change soon enough. They can't help it.

Guest123

13th Jul 2018, 01:17

V24

13th Jul 2018, 02:18

I know of quite a few people still waiting on hold. Not sure if the August course has been filled yet. Anyone else know?

sled

13th Jul 2018, 09:41

If a person gets into QF mainline as a pilot, they get in.

If they don't and are offered something else, whether it's only a Dash 8 position, they should take it.

Life goes on, there are other opportunities in aviation, with other companies world wide.

There's no need for people to get a headache, if they don't get accepted by QF.

QF have got their culture and way of doing things.

Sure. As long as they can live in Sydney on $59,000 a year.

Going Nowhere

13th Jul 2018, 10:35

Not sure where is $59,000 keeps coming up.

It's been done before elsewhere. F/O's would end up on $85K+ by the time you roll in allowances. Especially given how busy everyone is at the moment.

Keg

13th Jul 2018, 10:58

A while ago the word on the street was that the hold file for the previous round of applications was expected to be empty by August. Does anyone have any information on if that is still the case, or what the timeline might look like now? Any idea how many remain on active hold?

As at December 2017 there were about 150 on hold. Some of those were internals with indicative start dates out to December this year.

Since December ‘17 we’ve recruited at least 61 but I don’t have the numbers for how many started in Feb and I think there was a second course in April. So it could be 75-90 depending on how many started in those courses.

The demand for 2018 was supposed to be 200. Course size will need to increase to meet that forecast but training capacity remains very tight. I’d expect larger courses later in the year as more training capacity starts to comes online.

My assessment is that anyone going theough the process now (internal or external) is unlikely to get a start before Jan ‘19. I’ve no inside info on that though, just a best guess and reading of the tea leaves.

ilikecheese

13th Jul 2018, 11:45

There was a small June course of about 6 or so.
July course might be larger as they’re running both 78 and 330 ground schools.
I too heard some QLinkers have start dates out to December.

Going Nowhere

13th Jul 2018, 12:05

I too heard some QLinkers have start dates out to December.

Yes, there are internals from the first EOI who have start dates up to Dec.

Guest123

14th Jul 2018, 00:41

Any idea how many internals are still on hold from the first EOI?

Aviatrix91

14th Jul 2018, 04:53

Any idea how many internals are still on hold from the first EOI?
There is still a few of us, 2 per month from what I was told and it’s true, start dates out till December. Most of us have been waiting upwards of a year

737pnf

14th Jul 2018, 07:43

Pardon me - I'm not a follower of this thread.
I heard jumbos are being used PERSYD because of a lack of 737 crew. Contacted People Services to see if I could lend a hand.
Was told the EBA doesn't allow direct recruitment onto the 7 3. Can anyone shed some light on the actual clause in the EBA?
Thanks
737p nf

DirectAnywhere

14th Jul 2018, 09:17

Lend a hand? Very generous of you. I'm sure that your future colleagues would welcome you with open arms.

Clause 17.1 if you really need to know.

Keg

14th Jul 2018, 11:00

Since December ‘17 we’ve recruited at least 61 but I don’t have the numbers for how many started in Feb and I think there was a second course in April. So it could be 75-90 depending on how many started in those courses.

Actual numbers started this year is 74. Not sure how many starting in a couple of weeks.

I’m now more confident about the remainder of my post regarding 2019 start dates for those now undergoing the assessment process.

737pnf

20th Jul 2018, 08:32

CurtainTwitcher

20th Jul 2018, 08:50

Are you able to paste the clause please? I don't have access to the EBA.
FWA pdf copy Qantas Airways Limited Pilots (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2015 (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/agreements/fwa/ae415325.pdf)

SandyPalms

20th Jul 2018, 09:10

Why? The agreements are online. Not sure why you’d waste time reading it though, you can’t do it.

What The

20th Jul 2018, 10:10

Hi DirectAnywhere,
Get a strong feeling that you're being sarcastic. The contact with People Services was genuine. Not trying to cut anyone's lunch.
Simply put, QF are using twin aisle aircraft because they have a lack of 737 crew. Add to the equation that here I am with a type rating, and the equation I can see is mutually beneficial for both parties.

Are you able to paste the clause please? I don't have access to the EBA.
Thanks,
737p nf

Funny,
the equation I can see is a bloke trying to jump the queue. Please do it. You would be welcomed with open arms by the FOs. The EBA is open for bargaining at the moment too. Let the street coffee line knobs know that it would not cause a problem and everyone is happy for you to jump the queue.

wombat watcher

20th Jul 2018, 10:17

He doesn’t realise it doesn’t work that way. Has he seen any ads for DE Captains? Oh , he is from Queensland and he is here to help..I didn’t know Rudd was a pilot.
Oh yeh! He is yet another soldier of fortune aka I have done other things but I am quite content to come back to Oz and jump the queue to your disadvantage.

SandyPalms

20th Jul 2018, 12:15

Wombat, I feel he/she does know how it works. I think it hilarious that they would like the clause in the contract. What exactly are they going to do with this new found info? Or better yet, what if it doesn’t exist, then what are they going to do? Will they grieve it? It’s just so laughable and totally ridiculous, to posssibly not be a piss take.

romeocharlie

20th Jul 2018, 12:19

Hi DirectAnywhere,
Get a strong feeling that you're being sarcastic. The contact with People Services was genuine. Not trying to cut anyone's lunch.
Simply put, QF are using twin aisle aircraft because they have a lack of 737 crew. Add to the equation that here I am with a type rating, and the equation I can see is mutually beneficial for both parties.

Are you able to paste the clause please? I don't have access to the EBA.
Thanks,
737p nf

In the interest this isn't a wind up. I think you'll find a great many of the new hires including internals at QF also have previous 737 (both seats, and within the group)/767/777 etc. time, however, seniority and training systems in place dictate going through the whole process again. A previous Melbourne 737 fleet manager returned from LWOP and had to do a whole endorsement again.

I think you can read between the lines here.

737pnf

21st Jul 2018, 03:24

RC - thanks for your genuine response.
To the others, stop eating so many lemons. You're too sour for your own good.

"The contact...was genuine."
"Not trying to cut anyone's lunch [just trying to understand the process a little better]."

maggot

21st Jul 2018, 03:58

You can say that but the very act is actually cutting our lunch

*Lancer*

21st Jul 2018, 06:49

Hardly cutting our lunch given how low the uptake is for B737 FO!

One of the reasons the training system is so broken is the retraining and overtraining of pilots who are often already qualified.

wombat watcher

21st Jul 2018, 07:23

Hardly cutting our lunch given how low the uptake is for B737 FO!

One of the reasons the training system is so broken is the retraining and overtraining of pilots who are often already qualified.

with a statement like that, you have no idea what constitutes the operational standards required for an airline.

Chadzat

21st Jul 2018, 07:25

with a statement like that, you have no idea what constitutes the operational standards required for an airline.

yep, you don’t qualify for ‘skygod’ status otherwise!! :D

wombat watcher

21st Jul 2018, 07:59

[QUOTE=Chadzat;10202113]

yep, you don’t qualify for ‘skygod’ status otherwise!! :D[/QUOTE

you better believe it.

ruprecht

21st Jul 2018, 08:01

Hardly cutting our lunch given how low the uptake is for B737 FO!

Did 737pnf say s/he wanted to join as an FO? Must have missed it.

*Lancer*

21st Jul 2018, 09:14

Fair enough ruprecht. There has certainly been a lot of discussion about Direct Entry 737 FO though.

wombat watcher

21st Jul 2018, 09:40

Fair enough ruprecht. There has certainly been a lot of discussion about Direct Entry 737 FO though.

I’m not sure what people don’t understand.
When Qf recruits pilots to mainline, those who are recruited are TOLD on which fleet they are going to start. Desires as opposed to entitlements are considered. Weight is given to experience where there is a choice. If for some reason not enough of the already employed pilots bid for B737 F/O, then someone will be assigned. If there are pilots in their first 18 months of service, they will be just TOLD. In order to avoid accusations of unfairness reverse seniority is usually used but it is not an entitlement.If there is no-one in their first 18 months of service, then reverse order of seniority is used. To the best of my knowledge there has always been a willing bidder. Why not?
DE B 737 F/Os is fanciful IMHO.

737pnf

21st Jul 2018, 09:57

Did 737pnf say s/he wanted to join as an FO? Must have missed it.

I didn't say, but yes, it was as an FO, not direct entry captain.

Fair enough ruprecht. There has certainly been a lot of discussion about Direct Entry 737 FO though.

I also apologised in the beginning and said I wasn't an avid follower of the thread.

AerocatS2A

21st Jul 2018, 10:24

DE B 737 F/Os is fanciful IMHO.

Yet there are pilots being offered B737 FO on joining. Now sure, maybe technically they are hired as an SO and then given 737 FO on day 2 of employment but to all intents and purposes it is a direct entry 737 FO position. I certainly wouldn't be applying to QF and expecting to get an FO slot but it's been happening.

Keg

21st Jul 2018, 10:36

Yes it’s happened before. Right time, right place for those that scored it in the first half of this calendar year. Not sure it’s happened since June when the training slots for 18/19 were promulgated and the training pathways mapped out for the S/Os who’ve been allocated a slot and are awaiting their training course.

There is now no training capacity for a new S/O to go direct to a 737 F/O course given the allocations that have just been done. Not saying it won’t happen again but if it occurs it’s unlikely to be before the first half of 2019- once those currently employed by the airline and have an allocated courses actually start them.

wombat watcher

21st Jul 2018, 10:42

Yet there are pilots being offered B737 FO on joining. Now sure, maybe technically they are hired as an SO and then given 737 FO on day 2 of employment but to all intents and purposes it is a direct entry 737 FO position. I certainly wouldn't be applying to QF and expecting to get an FO slot but it's been happening.

Desires as opposed to entitlements

wombat watcher

21st Jul 2018, 10:55

wombat watcher

22nd Jul 2018, 02:16

You can’t be assigned to the 737. You can’t assign from the LH award to the SH award, it’s legally impossible. You must be recalling the days on the 767 before MDC was introduced when they were assigning pilots to the 767. Assigning from LH to LH is allowed.

What do you say about Section 20 of EBA9?

engine out

22nd Jul 2018, 05:49

Section 20 deals with transfers in accordance with training bids, and the integration award. It does not cover forced allocations.

wombat watcher

22nd Jul 2018, 06:03

Section 20 deals with transfers in accordance with training bids, and the integration award. It does not cover forced allocations.

an allocation is an award or assignment

engine out

22nd Jul 2018, 08:18

wombat watcher

22nd Jul 2018, 08:37

Yes and allocations are dealt with in section 19 and don’t mention 737. I’m not sure but think the fair work act may come into effect about forcing people between contracts, something I haven’t looked at.

You have to read section 16,17,19,20 and the Integration Agreement all together.
You better hope you are not in the firing line for an assignment to the B737 if you are longhaul. If you are you will have a good old fight on your hands to win your point. Good luck.

engine out

22nd Jul 2018, 08:41

Already fly 73s and enjoy it thanks.

wombat watcher

22nd Jul 2018, 08:43

Already fly 73s and enjoy it thanks.

Well there you go. Another satisfied pilot.

wombat watcher

23rd Jul 2018, 04:54

This came up in the RIN and it came up in the past, specifically thinking early 2000’s. While I haven’t read up on this lately my understanding is you can’t be forced between awards especially in the case where you will be worse off.

Which specific clause do you think allows for assignments to the 737 from LH? This hasn’t been allowed in the past so when and what has changed to EBA9 to allow this?

20.1.1 ( the word is “ allocated” which means award or assign) and 16.4 is the administration of it.

17.4 is modified by 20.1.2 so that you can work out what is a promotion and what is a demotion, also what is a bid down. Eg An A380 Captain can bid down to B 737 captain vacancy provided he/ she meets the criteria but a young buck A330 F/O can’t bid to B737 F/O without company agreement.

startno1

23rd Jul 2018, 23:24

Anyone know if many externals have heard about interview dates? I know some have gone out for August.

wombat watcher

24th Jul 2018, 00:49

I hear what you are saying but I think that you can’t be assigned between awards and those sections are merely there to facilitate transferring between the awards by mutual consent. Have you asked AIPA or your manager?

i can’t see the words” mutual consent” anywhere in the relevant sections. You obviously don’t appreciate the significance of the word “ allocation”.
I haven’t asked because it doesn’t affect me. “Your” manager wouldn’t know anyway.

What The

24th Jul 2018, 03:52

Just as you cannot displace across awards, you cannot be assigned across awards.
Simples.

wombat watcher

24th Jul 2018, 04:56

I ask you this then, why didn’t the company use it to assign to PER 737 when they were clearly short in the last allocation? I know of pilots who were informed they didn’t have enough F/O’s for PER 737 so they missed out on a command.

If it doesn’t affect you, then why did you bring it up? To try stir or troll people? Assigning to the 737 has never been used so what makes you think it will be used now?

As far as understanding what allocation means, I certainly do and if legislation overrides its meaning, it’s irrelevant.

I don’ t know.

if you you look back, this direction of the thread started when the question of DE f/os came up as being necessary, in some posters opinion.

ok . Which legislation specifically?

Displacement across awards ( incidentally, they are agreements) is not possible because it is not covered in section 20. Allocations, including assignments is.