Qantas Recruitment

[Australopithecus]

Hmmm. You guys should round up every older pilot who didn’t get hired, which would be all of them, and get a juicy class action going.

[Global Aviator]

Well, wouldn't being an SO be relaxing into retirement? :)

[engine out]

Looks like direct recruiting of SO’s onto the A380 is also about to start happening.

[piesang]

Anyone know what the starting salary is on the B717 at Q-Link/National Jet?

[Gunner747400]

Anyone know what the starting salary is on the B717 at Q-Link/National Jet?
Latest EBA can be found: National Jet Systems Pty. Ltd. Pilot Enterprise Agreement 2022 | Fair Work Commission (fwc.gov.au) (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMi83L0FFNTE2ODIyLnBkZg2/3/2637d78c-e0f1-41bf-a1c8-6e7d02729441/national%24%24jet%24%24systems%24%24pilot)

First year pay FO is 118.5k.

[piesang]

Thanks Gunner

[RealSatoshi]

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, none of this is required for 'Group Pilots':

British Airways are recruiting Direct Entry Captains for their EuroFlyer subsidiary on their A320 fleet based at London Gatwick in the UK. You will join the BA Mainline Master Seniority List on Day 1 and eventually get bidding rights to Heathrow / Long-Haul.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Well, wouldn't being an SO be relaxing into retirement? :)

Couldn’t think of a better way to do it if you still wanted to keep your toe in!

[fr8ter]

Hi all, could anyone please shed some light on the roster for A330 SO in Sydney? For instance what does a normal month look like? Length and frequency of trips? Destinations?
Is it viable to commute from the NT or WA? Do many SO's commute from interstate? How often do you get reserve periods and what is the callout time?
Any info will be appreciated thanks

[dr dre]

Hi all, could anyone please shed some light on the roster for A330 SO in Sydney? For instance what does a normal month look like? Length and frequency of trips? Destinations?
Is it viable to commute from the NT or WA? Do many SO's commute from interstate? How often do you get reserve periods and what is the callout time?
Any info will be appreciated thanks

Commuting to the 330 is doable, but not the easiest in terms of a commute. Wouldn’t plan to spend too many years doing that. Also runs off strict seniority for bidding, so if there’s not much more recruitment below you you’ll be waiting a while for good rosters.

However if you’re in WA there’s also the 787, and a short wait to 737 FO. Far better options than an extended commute to the 330.

Reserve rosters (blank lines) are now shared amongst the pilot group so no more perpetual reserves.

[Contigo]

Reserve rosters (blank lines) are now shared amongst the pilot group so no more perpetual reserves. Thanks for the info Dr Dre,

Regarding reserve the perpetual reserve you talk of is it spread across all rosters ie may have a reserve period in any roster or are there whole reserve rosters for the full 56 (or significant portion) of the roster. Also anyone know what the call out time from reserve generally is?

Thanks
C

[q400link]

Does anyone know anything about the 'cut-e' test the qantas academy seem to be using these days? Seems to be various types online

TIA

[ScepticalOptomist]

Thanks for the info Dr Dre,

Regarding reserve the perpetual reserve you talk of is it spread across all rosters ie may have a reserve period in any roster or are there whole reserve rosters for the full 56 (or significant portion) of the roster. Also anyone know what the call out time from reserve generally is?

Thanks
C

You do the entire 56 day roster as a “blank line” as opposed to the normal “pattern line”.

This will be made up of days off and available days. If you are called on an available day it will generally be for a duty with at least 8 hours notice. Ie the next day.

You can / will also be assigned standby duties on some of those available days which usually last 12hrs. You can be assigned up to three days in a row. During those standbys you are required to leave home within 45minutes AND be available to depart within 3hrs.

Hope that helps!

[Australopithecus]

Also be aware that commuting the day of duty is now impossible for most duties due to fatigue risk management, and in fact actual fatigue.

In SYD (and maybe elsewhere too) there are commuter rooms for rent for those reserve occasions. You will need a high pain threshold.

[aussieflyboy]

Recruitment on to B Scale has begun…

[cLeArIcE]

Recruitment on to B Scale has begun…
Didn't think that happened until the a350 arrived?

[engine out]

Think the EBA says “aircraft ordered” and “commenced recruitment of SOs into the A330/350 SFF category”. So if new SOs are being recruited as 330/350 SFF category they will be under new rate. Wouldn’t surprise me for Qantas to do that and say you fly both, but will only fly 330 for now.

[walesregent]

Think the EBA says “aircraft ordered” and “commenced recruitment of SOs into the A330/350 SFF category”. So if new SOs are being recruited as 330/350 SFF category they will be under new rate. Wouldn’t surprise me for Qantas to do that and say you fly both, but will only fly 330 for now.


will that apply to recruits onto all LH fleets now or just the 330? Is there any info onto how much it actually affects take home pay?

[Sparrows.]

Wouldn’t surprise me for Qantas to do that and say you fly both, but will only fly 330 for now.

Pretty hard to justify training (“commenced recruitment of S/O’s into the A330/A350 SFF category”) onto an aircraft that doesn’t arrive for over 2 years….

Hopefully AIPA think this is something to stand up and fight for, rather than thinking it’s a 50/50 if we win, and just rolling over as per usual!

[Chad Gates]

Once it begins, it's applicable to all fleets. I think the 787 rate is different, but with the way the rules work, it equates to the same pay. So I guess that means S/O's are now on fleet pay.

A bit of a stretch to suggest they are recruiting for SFF, but I'd suggest it's probably legal.

[Swept-Wing]

Can confirm SO’s starting in October have received an email from HR stating they are being employed in to the 330/350 Category.

I suspect this is a direct result of AIPA recently shutting down Qantas’ request to employ direct entry 380 SO’s without paying bypass pay to those with current bids in for the 380

Hopefully AIPA has something to say about this considering the fleet isn’t due to arrive for years yet.

[RealSatoshi]

Pretty hard to justify training (“commenced recruitment of S/O’s into the A330/A350 SFF category”) onto an aircraft that doesn’t arrive for over 2 years….
QF's absolute disdain towards the profession is errr....just Shocking!

[Contigo]

Recruitment on to B Scale has begun…

Maybe to entice new hires onto 737?

[cLeArIcE]

Funny thing is most of the people joining at the moment probably have enough hours on the triangle in some sort of jet they probably have no interest in rushing onto the 737.

[Change Tanks]

Is it likely progression would speed up in future with the aircraft orders, or is there still going to be 5,6,7+ year SO’s now sitting on a B scale? From what I’ve read the payscale starts to properly impact you after a couple of years.

[davidclarke]

QF's absolute disdain towards the profession is errr....just Shocking!

Well if the pilot group hadn’t sold out their future colleagues and voted up a B scale then the company wouldn’t be able to do this………..think about that..

[Dempster]

Well if the pilot group hadn’t sold out their future colleagues and voted up a B scale then the company would be able to do this………..think about that..

Amen 🙏

[SITTINGBULL]

Race plummet to the bottom, as always :}

[abaderrr]

Is it likely progression would speed up in future with the aircraft orders, or is there still going to be 5,6,7+ year SO’s now sitting on a B scale? From what I’ve read the payscale starts to properly impact you after a couple of years.

Boggles my mind that people are getting in line to be an SO for 7+ years, let alone now on a B scale. It's an insult to the profession and the individual's skillset. We really are our worst enemy.

[cLeArIcE]

Boggles my mind that people are getting in line to be an SO for 7+ years, let alone now on a B scale. It's an insult to the profession and the individual's skillset. We really are our worst enemy.
Probably still better than being at network njs etc. Maybe even Jetstar too. I'm not saying that's right. The whole industry in Australia has just gone to ****. Nothing but another pineapple every day. Maybe people see QF as a slightly smaller pineapple that's lubed. Can't blame them.

[romeocharlie]

Well if the pilot group hadn’t sold out their future colleagues and voted up a B scale then the company wouldn’t be able to do this………..think about that..

Just like EFA didn't sell out and vote "No" too hey?

[dr dre]

Boggles my mind that people are getting in line to be an SO for 7+ years, let alone now on a B scale. It's an insult to the profession and the individual's skillset. We really are our worst enemy.

There’s no reason to stay an SO for 7+ years except by choice, currently Syd and Mel SH FO slots are being handed out to new joiners.

Delving a bit more into the EBA for new hire SOs for the 787 it’s $122k-$131k on base MGH without additional pay or allowances. 330/350 SFF $107k-$124k MGH at the end of 6 years, so a bit lower but not substantially as much. Again this can all be avoided by bidding to SH ASAP, with 35% higher pay at MGH on first year rates, but at the usual hours rostered in SH it’ll be much much more, the before tax pay for most F/O’s for this FY should have a 2 at the start of it, even on first year rates and without the bonus or allowances.

[davidclarke]

Just like EFA didn't sell out and vote "No" too hey?

Absolutely! Every EBA that has been voted up in the last few years group wide has been garbage. But the difference is none of them voted up a B scale for their future colleagues. Colleagues that never got to have a say……

[cLeArIcE]

There’s no reason to stay an SO for 7+ years except by choice, currently Syd and Mel SH FO slots are being handed out to new joiners.

Delving a bit more into the EBA for new hire SOs for the 787 it’s $122k-$131k on base MGH without additional pay or allowances. 330/350 SFF $107k-$124k MGH at the end of 6 years, so a bit lower but not substantially as much. Again this can all be avoided by bidding to SH ASAP, with 35% higher pay at MGH on first year rates, but at the usual hours rostered in SH it’ll be much much more, the before tax pay for most F/O’s for this FY should have a 2 at the start of it, even on first year rates and without the bonus or allowances.
Is it normal for SO's on the 787/330 to get MGH or are they working harder than that?

[Change Tanks]

There’s no reason to stay an SO for 7+ years except by choice, currently Syd and Mel SH FO slots are being handed out to new joiners.

Delving a bit more into the EBA for new hire SOs for the 787 it’s $122k-$131k on base MGH without additional pay or allowances. 330/350 SFF $107k-$124k MGH at the end of 6 years, so a bit lower but not substantially as much. Again this can all be avoided by bidding to SH ASAP, with 35% higher pay at MGH on first year rates, but at the usual hours rostered in SH it’ll be much much more, the before tax pay for most F/O’s for this FY should have a 2 at the start of it, even on first year rates and without the bonus or allowances.

What about bases outside of Mel or syd? Understandably not day 1 but how long could you have to wait for SH?

[Overspeed1]

Absolutely! Every EBA that has been voted up in the last few years group wide has been garbage. But the difference is none of them voted up a B scale for their future colleagues. Colleagues that never got to have a say……

I’m wildly against B scales in principal as well but it’s easy to forget how that “negotiation” went down.

Qantas threatened to outsource the 350 or start another entity to fly it if that agreement didn’t get up. Legal advise was that as they were new aircraft on new routes there was no transfer of business and it would have been completely legal.

Combine that with the fact COVID took hold and the EBA vote was in April 2020 while most people were stood down it didn’t really leave mainline pilots in a strong bargaining position did it

[Swept-Wing]

Just like EFA didn't sell out and vote "No" too hey?

EFA pilots were well below award after having a 4 year expired EBA. Once the 0/0/2/2 pay freeze/wages policy was applied, they were still below award, and were all bumped up to 2% above award, which netted a circa 15% pay rise over 4 years. But still “wages policy compliant” in the company’s eyes.

[onezeroonethree]

I’m wildly against B scales in principal as well but it’s easy to forget how that “negotiation” went down.

Qantas threatened to outsource the 350 or start another entity to fly it if that agreement didn’t get up. Legal advise was that as they were new aircraft on new routes there was no transfer of business and it would have been completely legal.

Combine that with the fact COVID took hold and the EBA vote was in April 2020 while most people were stood down it didn’t really leave mainline pilots in a strong bargaining position did it

This comment is accurate.

The threat pre Covid-19 was real that they’d outsource the flying to a new entity. And with lots leaving CX due to the issues in HKG it wasn’t a risk the pilots could take, especially as covid started to appear. Secure the plane first. Then fight it.

Bin Chicken Airlines WA was waiting to swoop in. QantasLink A350-1000 ULR 🤢 Award pay for a350 log book time. They were rubbing their hands. I seen it.

[Jc31]

This comment is accurate.

The threat pre Covid-19 was real that they’d outsource the flying to a new entity. And with lots leaving CX due to the issues in HKG it wasn’t a risk the pilots could take, especially as covid started to appear. Secure the plane first. Then fight it.

Bin Chicken Airlines WA was waiting to swoop in. QantasLink A350-1000 ULR 🤢 Award pay for a350 log book time. They were rubbing their hands. I seen it.
if you believed network could have done this flying you’re dumber than a one nail door stop

[Johnny_56]

‘I seen it’…

[dr dre]

Is it normal for SO's on the 787/330 to get MGH or are they working harder than that?

I believe both fleets are working quite a lot at the moment, above min guarantee. But long term the company aims to keep hours roughly around MGH.

What about bases outside of Mel or syd? Understandably not day 1 but how long could you have to wait for SH?

Perth and Adl go fairly junior too,

The only real wait was BNE, but just before Covid when recruiting was at peak that was just shy of 2 years.

Back in the “good old days” it would be closer to a decade for a BNE base FO slot, but that’s certainly a thing of the past now.

[On Guard]

I believe both fleets are working quite a lot at the moment, above min guarantee. But long term the company aims to keep hours roughly around MGH.



Perth and Adl go fairly junior too,

The only real wait was BNE, but just before Covid when recruiting was at peak that was just shy of 2 years.

Back in the “good old days” it would be closer to a decade for a BNE base FO slot, but that’s certainly a thing of the past now.

What’s your ballpark guess on junior widebody f/o in years to come with the bubble of retirements etc?

[abaderrr]

There’s no reason to stay an SO for 7+ years except by choice, currently Syd and Mel SH FO slots are being handed out to new joiners.

Delving a bit more into the EBA for new hire SOs for the 787 it’s $122k-$131k on base MGH without additional pay or allowances. 330/350 SFF $107k-$124k MGH at the end of 6 years, so a bit lower but not substantially as much. Again this can all be avoided by bidding to SH ASAP, with 35% higher pay at MGH on first year rates, but at the usual hours rostered in SH it’ll be much much more, the before tax pay for most F/O’s for this FY should have a 2 at the start of it, even on first year rates and without the bonus or allowances.

A large percentage of new hires go to mainline solely for the LH lifestyle, being the only such opportunity in Aus. So the suggestion that it's either 8+ years of making bunks (now on a B scale), or they can gleefully accept a SH FO slot on Day 1, to be flogged up and down the east coast doing 4-5 sector days, 5 days a week is hilarious.

[Chad Gates]

If the condition aren’t to your satisfaction, you are free to join another airline.

[dr dre]

A large percentage of new hires go to mainline solely for the LH lifestyle, being the only such opportunity in Aus. So the suggestion that it's either 8+ years of making bunks (now on a B scale), or they can gleefully accept a SH FO slot on Day 1, to be flogged up and down the east coast doing 4-5 sector days, 5 days a week is hilarious.

Work harder get paid more? Yeah that’s how it works. In previous times there were 380 SOs on above $250k.

SO is an entry level job. The total package for new joiners with allowances will be around $140-150k, more than enough for a position that can be done with a bare CPL and 200hrs. You want more? Got to SH and make more.

It’s not the responsibility of the company to pay SOs $250k+ for a cushy lifestyle. Yes you should be paid much more for being in the front seat of any Jet than as a cruise relief pilot.

[dr dre]

What’s your ballpark guess on junior widebody f/o in years to come with the bubble of retirements etc?

Just prior to Covid the most junior LH FO was 3 years. With continuous recruitment for any base LH FO should fall within 5-10 years.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

If the condition aren’t to your satisfaction, you are free to join another airline.

Exactly!

[onezeroonethree]

if you believed network could have done this flying you’re dumber than a one nail door stop
Never said I believed it. They can't even properly crew their charter ops.

Doesn't mean some of their pilots there weren't getting excited over the idea. Oh, and over potentially taking Winton A321s.

[Jc31]

Never said I believed it. They can't even properly crew their charter ops.

Doesn't mean some of their pilots there weren't getting excited over the idea. Oh, and over potentially taking Winton A321s.
so you are dumber than a one nail doorstop then

[havick]

If the condition aren’t to your satisfaction, you are free to join another airline.

Many are and have.

Crappy conditions (B scale) just has the effect of lowering the pool of candidates.

For sure QF will always be able to have a deep hiring pool. But you have to admit, QF isn’t necessarily the envy of all Australian pilots given what else is on offer in the world.

[Fujiroll76]

Many are and have.

Crappy conditions (B scale) just has the effect of lowering the pool of candidates.

For sure QF will always be able to have a deep hiring pool. But you have to admit, QF isn’t necessarily the envy of all Australian pilots given what else is on offer in the world.

I beg to differ. Those who have gone overseas, either went too early or didn’t make it with QF.
The 1% may have a genuine desire but you’re fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

[havick]

I beg to differ. Those who have gone overseas, either went too early or didn’t make it with QF.
The 1% may have a genuine desire but you’re fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

I guess we are simply at an impasse then. The current conditions on offer are pretty sub-par compared to what is now on offer elsewhere if you take a snapshot of current conditions vs historic.

[abaderrr]

I beg to differ. Those who have gone overseas, either went too early or didn’t make it with QF.
The 1% may have a genuine desire but you’re fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

So the QF start date that I, and numerous others (that I know of) have turned down fits into which part of your first claim?

[cLeArIcE]

Most Aussies with a family simply don't want to live in a place like Dubai/ Qatar and don't want their kid's to go to school in the USA. Hong Kong is no longer a viable option either. There is no escaping that fact. QF will always have that advantage as the premier employer for pilots in Australia. What you might find is the people that are joining now are already jaded before they even start (especially if coming from inside the group).

[dr dre]

And overseas isn't exactly the golden goose it's perceived to be. A lot of people are saying Atlas is a better option, having been sent a sample bid package for their 74F operation I'd beg to differ. 17 days per month of non stop work that traverses every time zone, usually 24 hrs or less free of duty everywhere, constant switching between days and nights, back of the clock 3 and 4 leg duties. I'm sure I'd personally be shattered at the end of one of those patterns, and that's without even factoring commuting in. I'd hope those guys are getting paid well because that kind of rostering is unsustainable in the long term IMO.

QF LH is without a doubt far less fatiguing.

[Chad Gates]

The world is a magnificent place, and if want to see as many cities as you can during slip times, it’s probably best to go overseas as Qantas isn’t the job for you. The route network isn’t all that big, and never will be. If the actual flying stuff isn't that important to you, and you can live with going to London, Rome, or LA multiple times over a year, with the promise that home is really home, it may be a great fit. The conditions are good (even for new SO’s), and for me anyway, you don’t have to live with the fear that when the next recession hits, you are turfed out of the country for being a ”foreigner”. That probably won’t happen to those that choose overseas, and I wish them the best of Luck. I’m with dre though, that atlas gig looks far too much like hard work.

QF is still the best job in Australia, and I’d hesitate to reject a job offer, as I’m sure it only comes once, and eventually most will want to come home. You’re probably better off not applying at all until that day comes, if it comes at all.

[Australopithecus]

And overseas isn't exactly the golden goose it's perceived to be. A lot of people are saying Atlas is a better option, having been sent a sample bid package for their 74F operation I'd beg to differ. 17 days per month of non stop work that traverses every time zone, usually 24 hrs or less free of duty everywhere, constant switching between days and nights, back of the clock 3 and 4 leg duties. I'm sure I'd personally be shattered at the end of one of those patterns, and that's without even factoring commuting in. I'd hope those guys are getting paid well because that kind of rostering is unsustainable in the long term IMO.

QF LH is without a doubt far less fatiguing.

QF long haul no doubt is less fatiguing. But you are either going to have to do 15 years in the sh*t show that is shorthaul or stay in a junior rank* for lots longer than most peoples' ambitions.

*not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Once upon a time I did rosters like the Atlas gig. I didn’t find it onerous at all. It would be interesting to cross examine a couple of Atlas senior people to get their take on the rosters.

[dr dre]

The world is a magnificent place, and if want to see as many cities as you can during slip times, it’s probably best to go overseas as Qantas isn’t the job for you.

I'd go for an ME carrier in that case, very varied worldwide network to all continents and sights to see in most of them.

But Atlas? When you're conscious in your 24-30 ish hours off between multiple back of the clock duties you can enjoy the sights of freight hubs like Cincinnati and Anchorage.......

[dr dre]

QF long haul no doubt is less fatiguing. But you are either going to have to do 15 years in the sh*t show that is shorthaul or stay in a junior rank* for lots longer than most peoples' ambitions.

Only comparatively. SH isn't too bad of a gig, given the pay is better than any other NB in the country, can be at home most nights. Domestic flying appeals to some, the beauty with mainline is if you get a job there you can switch between both at various points in your career.

Lowest LH FO slot went 3 years right at the peak just before Covid. Can expect it to be no more than 5-10 years assuming continuous recruitment in the future.

[Australopithecus]

I doubt it. The fleet isn’t growing, but perhaps the age distribution is skewed so advancement may be quick for a couple of intakes. On average if you want a right seat quickly its probably going to be 8 years on the 737. Same for the left seat. So about half of the average pilot's career can be spent tied to the whipping post.

The fact that the pay is the best in the country isn’t saying much given the alternatives.

[havick]

And overseas isn't exactly the golden goose it's perceived to be. A lot of people are saying Atlas is a better option, having been sent a sample bid package for their 74F operation I'd beg to differ. 17 days per month of non stop work that traverses every time zone, usually 24 hrs or less free of duty everywhere, constant switching between days and nights, back of the clock 3 and 4 leg duties. I'm sure I'd personally be shattered at the end of one of those patterns, and that's without even factoring commuting in. I'd hope those guys are getting paid well because that kind of rostering is unsustainable in the long term IMO.

QF LH is without a doubt far less fatiguing.

So you’re comparing the rest of the world, or even the US with simply a couple of Atlas bid packets?

There’s a whole lot more out there than Atlas.

[Transition Layer]

A large percentage of new hires go to mainline solely for the LH lifestyle, being the only such opportunity in Aus. So the suggestion that it's either 8+ years of making bunks (now on a B scale), or they can gleefully accept a SH FO slot on Day 1, to be flogged up and down the east coast doing 4-5 sector days, 5 days a week is hilarious.
Still haven’t found these elusive SOs who make up the bunk for everyone!

[Fujiroll76]

So the QF start date that I, and numerous others (that I know of) have turned down fits into which part of your first claim?

Sorry I forgot the stupidity part.

[dr dre]

So you’re comparing the rest of the world, or even the US with simply a couple of Atlas bid packets?

There’s a whole lot more out there than Atlas.

There is, but Atlas was being touted on these forums as a much better option than mainline so much so that a lot of S/Os were jumping ship. They may regret it looking at those rosters but there may be advantages for them as well.

There’s always been a plethora of overseas opportunities, the Middle East carriers have been enticing with the opportunity for fast widebody commands and a large route network but working in the ME has real challenges too, and fatigue is also a commonly cited factor.

Asian contracts should start up again soon, again with positives and negatives.

But this isn’t a new thing. Some pilots got start dates or started with mainline 10, 20, 30 odd years ago. But then resigned to go elsewhere for whatever reason. I know of a few who went to Cathay, apparently some to ME carriers too. Better prospects of promotion or pay or other reasons. But they were a minority. Almost all who took LWOP in the last 10 years have returned or are planning to return, very few resigned.

Point being I don’t think Mainline is going to have an issue with large numbers of new hires not showing up on day one because they’ve jumped ship to go to Atlas or elsewhere.

[ExtraShot]

Any truth to the rumour that QF Pilots were told at a recent planning presentation that the expectation is that Mainline domestic will reduce to 50 A321s (down from 75 odd 737s) and NJS (or other entity) will increase to 50ish A220s?

Would make domestic commands difficult for those that were wanting just a couple years international before switching to domestic and having family home time.


I didn’t hear this, but I can’t imagine a321s will be used to fly to Hedland or Isa, etc, like 737s are now. It’s entirely conceivable that a220s would do a lot of this work, and a smaller mainline narrow body fleet that would do mainly capital cities and some lesser capacity international stuff could be the way forward.

[ResumeOwnNav]

And overseas isn't exactly the golden goose it's perceived to be. A lot of people are saying Atlas is a better option, having been sent a sample bid package for their 74F operation I'd beg to differ. 17 days per month of non stop work that traverses every time zone, usually 24 hrs or less free of duty everywhere, constant switching between days and nights, back of the clock 3 and 4 leg duties. I'm sure I'd personally be shattered at the end of one of those patterns, and that's without even factoring commuting in. I'd hope those guys are getting paid well because that kind of rostering is unsustainable in the long term IMO.

QF LH is without a doubt far less fatiguing.


It takes 3 hours to turn the 747, that would mean 9 hours in just turn time for a 4 leg day... That fails the pub test.

There are no days longer than 2 sectors on the 74.

FAA mandates 32 hours of rest within 7 days. Usually get 3 x 32/7's inside 14 days. These can happen at any port. Most layovers are 24-30 hours.

17 days on will usually be 13 flights. No 3+ days...

Most ops are 4 crew, a few 3 crew legs and even less 2 crew.

Expect 1-3 landings a month.

I have a number of good mates at Giant.

[dr dre]

It takes 3 hours to turn the 747, that would mean 9 hours in just turn time for a 4 leg day... That fails the pub test.

There are no days longer than 2 sectors on the 74.

FAA mandates 32 hours of rest within 7 days. Usually get 3 x 32/7's inside 14 days. These can happen at any port. Most layovers are 24-30 hours.

17 days on will usually be 13 flights. No 3+ days...

Most ops are 4 crew, a few 3 crew legs and even less 2 crew.

Expect 1-3 landings a month.

I have a number of good mates at Giant.

There is a sample pattern document going around. Whilst not all duties were multi leg a few were, and they were quite short ones (I remember one that bounced around several airports in Japan and Korea on one TOD) so not much flight time but plenty of sectors to fit in one augmented TOD.

3x 32hrs rest breaks within 14 days isn’t much. Definitely less than what you’d get in a typical pattern in mainline. No more than 24-30 hr layovers in 17 days will build up to the point of exhaustion by the end of a trip. I think that was the biggest stand out, as well as continual switching between days and nights with 24hrs off, which will have a greater effect on fatigue than a roster of pure night shifts.

For comparison when the mainline 744 was around 13 day ‘double shuttle’ trips would be common. That was 6 legs in 13, no multi sector, always augmented and least two rest periods of at least 48hrs (sometimes 60+hrs) in those trips. And by the end of those pilots generally remarked that was more than enough. My own look at the Atlas rosters saw that happening about halfway through a typical 17 day trip.

Of course there may be some who can manage that workload successfully, and good for them, but it is definitely more fatigue inducing than the worst mainline trip I can think of, and now those trips don’t even exist anymore.

[dr dre]

Any truth to the rumour that QF Pilots were told at a recent planning presentation that the expectation is that Mainline domestic will reduce to 50 A321s (down from 75 odd 737s) and NJS (or other entity) will increase to 50ish A220s?


It’s a fleet replacement project that will go for another 12 years. Management generally aren’t looking at numbers that far in advance and will adapt as necessary (a year or two out). I would highly doubt they’ve arrived at a firm 50/50 split today, and even if they had there’s no ‘planning presentation’ where they would openly tell crew about it.

But even with that the combined A220/A321 total order is 134 aircraft, so there are another 34 aircraft to be accounted for. Split evenly that adds up to 67 A321s, which is similar to the 75 737s atm.

Seat capacity, 75x 738 and 20x 717 adds up to just shy of what 50 321 and 50 220 will give you, however passenger numbers are forecast to rise by about 3.5% per year for the next 10+ years so 50/50 won’t be enough to cater for the expected rise in numbers, however getting the extra 34 options (17 321s and 17 A220s) roughly will. So IMO there’ll definitely have to be more than 50 321s coming in the long run.

What the A321 will be doing is more overnight flying to Asia, at the time the current 737 fleet is mostly sitting idle. So even a lesser number of 321s can mean the same amount of crew required.

[Lapon]

Of course if Airbus go ahead with the A220-500 variant that could change things again.

[dr dre]

Of course if Airbus go ahead with the A220-500 variant that could change things again.

That would be right in the area of the 320neo however. It isn’t a priority for Airbus at the moment, and will be many years before it comes into QF service, as they generally wait until the first design is in service with other carriers before introducing them. Given the XLR time from announcement of the project to entry into mainline service will be 6 years the -500, if it ever goes ahead, wouldn’t be in the QF group til the end of the decade, and by that stage a more accurate plan of fleet replacement will have been formulated, too far in the future to worry about now.

[transition_alt]

Are people regularly being called off the hold file for ground schools?

[Ladloy]

Are people regularly being called off the hold file for ground schools?
yes. Some getting dates into next year

[SITTINGBULL]

hold file

More time spent on hold file than flying :ugh:

[RustyFlyerBoy]

Any truth to the rumour of 50 or 60 ex-Cathay guys applying in the most recent round earlier this year and if so, any news on how they faired?

[spoony]

Anyone got any idea on when Q will take applications again? Still a big backlog?

[dr dre]

Anyone got any idea on when Q will take applications again? Still a big backlog?

I think they’ve got enough applications to process and fill courses for most of next year, so I wouldn’t expect recruitment to reopen until late next year, but as usual in aviation it could be totally variable so be ready to put an application in if it reopens unexpectedly sooner.

[On Guard]

Hey there, guys who are getting course dates now, out of interest when did you do final sim? Ive just got my yes so thinking 6 mths?

[Change Tanks]

Hey there, guys who are getting course dates now, out of interest when did you do final sim? Ive just got my yes so thinking 6 mths?

Did the process mid year. I’ve been told first half of 2023 by hr, so 6-9 months could be about right unless you have jet time it may be faster. I think most getting on course this year are ex jet drivers

[Delt4wing]

Four years

[HappyBandit]

Did the process mid year. I’ve been told first half of 2023 by hr, so 6-9 months could be about right unless you have jet time it may be faster. I think most getting on course this year are ex jet drivers

Not the case...most are ex turboprop. if youre external expect more rapid call up.

[dctPub]

Any truth to the rumour of 50 or 60 ex-Cathay guys applying in the most recent round earlier this year and if so, any news on how they faired?

Are you surprised? Have you heard what’s happening up there? Surprised the number is not in the hundreds.

The smart ones who were on non expat contracts left in 2016-2019.

[cLeArIcE]

if youre external expect more rapid call up.
Yes of course, why would Qantas treat the people already in the group with any sort of respect or appreciation. :rolleyes:. Absolute pricks.

[Climb150]

Yes of course, why would Qantas treat the people already in the group with any sort of respect or appreciation. :rolleyes:. Absolute pricks.

Recruiting internally costs more due to the fact you need to train 2 people instead of one.

[morno]

Yes of course, why would Qantas treat the people already in the group with any sort of respect or appreciation. :rolleyes:. Absolute pricks.

I’m guessing you won’t be working for said “pricks” then?

It’s basic business economics really, why take from internal businesses when they’re already short and external options exist that won’t leave other parts of the business struggling.

Be lucky there’s even an option. Years ago you would have been dreaming to move internally.

[KAPAC]

90’s there was next to no chance to go from qantaslink to mainline . Took 3 in 9 years while get a job at kendals and get a mainline seniority number same day it seemed . Why take from your own regionals and incur a cost ? Take from opposition and they incur the cost .

slowest way into mainline is via qantas regionals . Been like this for 30+ years .

[cLeArIcE]

I’m guessing you won’t be working for said “pricks” then?

It’s basic business economics really, why take from internal businesses when they’re already short and external options exist that won’t leave other parts of the business struggling.

Be lucky there’s even an option. Years ago you would have been dreaming to move internally.

So give a seniority number to those people whom Qlink, EFA etc can't release etc then it doesn't matter if it takes a year or two. But that would require Qantas to actually respect and appreciate their people.

[Icarus2001]

They do, it says so on their website so it must be true...
Human ResourcesAs one of Australia’s largest employers, our Human Resources team works closely with the business in the delivery of our corporate and people strategy. We have an unwavering focus on building a flexible and adaptable workforce, driving leadership capability, improving productivity and creating safe workplaces.

We're proud of our fleet but our greatest pride is in our people. We work hard to identify talented people and help them realise their potential.

[AviatoR21]

Haha what a joke that is. Loyal pilots who’ve stayed in the group have been pushed to the bottom of the hold file while others at the competition have been given priority….

[Vne_]

90’s there was next to no chance to go from qantaslink to mainline . Took 3 in 9 years while get a job at kendals and get a mainline seniority number same day it seemed . Why take from your own regionals and incur a cost ? Take from opposition and they incur the cost .

slowest way into mainline is via qantas regionals . Been like this for 30+ years .

True although the company has made big changes to streamline the internal AOC transfer process in recent years. Obviously there's reason for this...? Perhaps they see the benefit in hiring from 'within'

[On Guard]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on joining as a 45 year old. Good move or not? Other options are command a320 but at secondary carriers.

[HappyBandit]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on joining as a 45 year old. Good move or not? Other options are command a320 but at secondary carriers.
I think its personal choice. I know many Mid 40 and early 50 year olds going to mainline for the lifestyle with view to retire in a decade.

[goose1]

I joined at age 46, have had a great career, s/o 747, f/o 767, 380 s/o, Capt 737 currently.
now 20 years since joining.

[SO4life]

Hey there, guys who are getting course dates now, out of interest when did you do final sim? Ive just got my yes so thinking 6 mths?

Has anyone heard any recent updates? Cheers

[Saab340driver]

Has anyone heard any recent updates? Cheers

Courses filled to June 2023

[Ladloy]

Courses filled to June 2023
Planned courses to June at a minimum but they haven't actually called up hold file candidates yet, supposedly they have only gone as far as Feb.

[SO4life]

Thanks very much!

[On Guard]

Planned courses to June at a minimum but they haven't actually called up hold file candidates yet, supposedly they have only gone as far as Feb.


Confirmed. I got email updating me, Feb course filled just now.

[Change Tanks]

Confirmed. I got email updating me, Feb course filled just now.

When did you do the interview/sim?

[itchy_feet]

Any chance of recruitment opening up again next year to externals?

Cheers

[On Guard]

When did you do the interview/sim?

sim was in October. But I’m not called up yet. External.

[Mr787X]

Wait so. Apparently QLink Dash FOs are getting in with less than the 250 hours multi? Hmm.

[tossbag]

Wait so. Apparently QLink Dash FOs are getting in with less than the 250 hours multi? Hmm.

Have you seen the pay? They'll be taking RAAus pilots with GP medicals soon

[dr dre]

Wait so. Apparently QLink Dash FOs are getting in with less than the 250 hours multi? Hmm.

Still meets the minimum hours requirements. Only needed roughly either 500hrs command or 1500 hours FO turbine. It’s been like that for almost 20 years.

Perusing latest new hires I’d give a “typical” background of at least 7-8 years in aviation and at least 3-4 years turboprop or jet.

[aussieflyboy]

Are they still forcing you to pay for a first aid course before starting?

[morno]

No…..

[Ladloy]

Are they still forcing you to pay for a first aid course before starting?
My friend who got in a few weeks ago said no psych or medical either.

[On Guard]

Nobody hearing anything yet after Xmas break?

[DashTrash.]

Are they still forcing you to pay for a first aid course before starting?

if you’re referring to the PEHA pre employment health assessment. Then yes, still averaging around $1k for most guys

[morno]

Incorrect. No longer a requirement.

But that’s not what they were referring to.

The first aid requirement was more a misunderstanding of the new Part 121 requirements from what I have heard. Doesn’t mean it won’t be required to be done in the future at some point though. But not required for applying etc.

[thefeatheredone]

So now that HR is back to work, any ideas on what QF recruitment will look like this year? is there enough on the hold file or will they start interviewing again?

[TimmyTee]

Rumblings that possibly a few VA drivers have now sampled the new conditions and want a crack at QF next time round - is it really that bad over there? Have many left for QF in the previous recruitment drive?

[Fujiroll76]

So now that HR is back to work, any ideas on what QF recruitment will look like this year? is there enough on the hold file or will they start interviewing again?

For those who obtained a hold file in recent times…I wouldn’t expect a start in 2023. The training pipeline is at capacity with internal movements.

The 787 is already carrying a surplus for NY ops to commence. The 330 will have most of the new hires but will be onto the average 330/350 pay scale so prepare for that.

Recruitment ramps up mid 2024.

[Ollie Onion]

What medical is involved for group recruits?

[Red69]

Rumblings that possibly a few VA drivers have now sampled the new conditions and want a crack at QF next time round - is it really that bad over there? Have many left for QF in the previous recruitment drive?

Fact. VA is now a ‘stepping stone’ airline. There are many reasons why people are leaving VA for QF, QQ and now Bonza. Of course many are also leaving for the USA or Middle East. They will be hiring many more this year, a fair chunk just to deal with attrition. It’s a smart move by QF to take as many VA crew - experienced guys and also slows down the competitions expansion.

[mcgrath50]

For those who obtained a hold file in recent times…I wouldn’t expect a start in 2023. The training pipeline is at capacity with internal movements.

The 787 is already carrying a surplus for NY ops to commence. The 330 will have most of the new hires but will be onto the average 330/350 pay scale so prepare for that.

Recruitment ramps up mid 2024.

This seems absolutely at odds with the training and recruitment plan slide that has done the rounds of whats app groups. The hold file currently has the numbers to fill positions on those slides from now until June 24. But there is constant recruitment of those 150+ people across that time.

[Beer Baron]

Yeah, don’t think there will be a recruitment slowdown anytime soon.
The most recent SYD base update clearly stated that recruitment ‘continues at pace’. With new intake courses planned ‘out to June 2023’.

[Jc31]

Yeah, don’t think there will be a recruitment slowdown anytime soon.
The most recent SYD base update clearly stated that recruitment ‘continues at pace’. With new intake courses planned ‘out to June 2023’.
rumor is that 2023 recruiting will be almost entirely internal applicants.

[MaxAuto]

Does anyone have any information regarding courses after the February one?

[RealSatoshi]

rumor is that 2023 recruiting will be almost entirely internal applicants.
To be replaced by externals coming from where...150+ Cadets?

Once QF Mainline figures this out, recruitment from internals will grind to a slow halt in favour of externals so as not to jeopardise the entire machine. Easier to convince someone from REX or VA to join Mainline, than doing same to join any of the QantasLink or Jetstar group companies.

[Ollie Onion]

To be replaced by externals coming from where...150+ Cadets?

Once QF Mainline figures this out, recruitment from internals will grind to a slow halt in favour of externals so as not to jeopardise the entire machine. Easier to convince someone from REX or VA to join Mainline, than doing same to join any of the QantasLink or Jetstar group companies.


Not necessarily, if the Group establishes a pathway from the likes of Jetstar to Mainline then that would drive external recruitment. It is in Qantas’ interest to show that internal candidates are preferred over externals. We are edging towards the day when only internal candidates will make it into mainline and the only way in is to join a Qantas Group entity.

[cloudsurfng]

We absolutely are not edging in that direction at all. These clowns don’t want career opportunities. They want you stuck. The seniority system ensures that. It’s a long time to command in mainline, he’ll it’s along time to wide body FO. They will never have a system where group pilots work together rather than in competition. Sorry, that’s a fact. I’d love it if we were moving to a system where internals could move around entities to find a job that suited them best, I think that would be a group seniority….and we won’t even get the various workgroups to agree on that, let alone the management morons. One only has to look at the success rate of those coming from JQ to mainline under the MOU. If you’re in the group, there should be no testing at all. Should be simple. Yet all these rules have been imposed, and applicants have failed. Can’t believe it.

[dr dre]

Not necessarily, if the Group establishes a pathway from the likes of Jetstar to Mainline then that would drive external recruitment. It is in Qantas’ interest to show that internal candidates are preferred over externals. We are edging towards the day when only internal candidates will make it into mainline and the only way in is to join a Qantas Group entity.

Pretty Much.

From what I believe, even though in their ideal world HR would love every pilot in a subsidiary to remain put, they’ve now realised that internal candidates aren’t going to sit patiently on the hold file and wait months or even years to get a start date, and then lose several hundred seniority numbers to be behind external candidates. People talk, and if word gets out that being in a subsidiary is a handbrake to getting into mainline they won’t join a subsidiary, or will leave to other companies if progression is glacial.

Of course they were warned about this some time ago, but until it became a reality they didn’t do anything about it.

[Beer Baron]

we won’t even get the various workgroups to agree on that, let alone the management morons. One only has to look at the success rate of those coming from JQ to mainline under the MOU. If you’re in the group, there should be no testing at all. Should be simple. Yet all these rules have been imposed, and applicants have failed. Can’t believe it.
You are quite right. F/O’s from QF used to be able to go to JQ as a Captain under the MOU. But after several years they changed the rules and you had to be a JQ F/O for minimum 6 months and jump through a bunch of hoops before starting command training.

[Going Nowhere]

To be replaced by externals coming from where...150+ Cadets?

Once QF Mainline figures this out, recruitment from internals will grind to a slow halt in favour of externals so as not to jeopardise the entire machine. Easier to convince someone from REX or VA to join Mainline, than doing same to join any of the QantasLink or Jetstar group companies.

The problem with that is that if you make the other group airlines any less appealing than they already are, then you will have an even bigger problem attracting suitable candidates, especially those with experience.

The Dash 8 operation, for example, can not survive on cadets alone moving forward.

[On Guard]

Does anyone have any information regarding courses after the February one?

Few days ago was told only Feb filled. So perhaps no March course? Has anyone heard for March?

[cLeArIcE]

Have any internals even been given an answer despite being advised that they'd hear by the end of the year? Even what few internals they do take, you are going to be behind 100 other virgn, Rex Cathay peeps etc. anyone's guess when qlink, EFA or JQ will release you, What's the point? Just another kick in the teeth by a group that couldn't care less about it's staff.

[Fujiroll76]

Anyone getting in now will have to face the deciosn of never holding a command at Qantas mainline.

For some that’s not an issue…for others that’s a problem.

Obviously this isn’t a new issue but joining the wave post COVID in an airline with little to no expansion over the next decade is the harsh reality.

[Fujiroll76]

Have any internals even been given an answer despite being advised that they'd hear by the end of the year? Even what few internals they do take, you are going to be behind 100 other virgn, Rex Cathay peeps etc. anyone's guess when qlink, EFA or JQ will release you, What's the point? Just another kick in the teeth by a group that couldn't care less about it's staff.

Internals will trickle through this year at a very limited rate, need to keep the dream alive for the majority of others. Lucky if all have started by the end of 2024. Just another way of being screwed by Qantas.

can’t wait for EA negations.. 🍍

[morno]

Anyone getting in now will have to face the deciosn of never holding a command at Qantas mainline.

For some that’s not an issue…for others that’s a problem.

Obviously this isn’t a new issue but joining the wave post COVID in an airline with little to no expansion over the next decade is the harsh reality.

Depends on one’s age, and how picky they want to be with bids.

I would agree that maybe someone 50+ is not going to hold a command. 45 and under though, I would say there’s still a good chance of at least a narrow body command. 30-35 and under will get a chance at a widebody command.

I would probably safely say that the days of expanding Jetstar are done and dusted, and with more demand for point to point travel in the future, I see there being a good chance of at least some expansion of mainline.

But, all this depends on how pessimistic or optimistic you want to be.

On the other hand, you could just go and enjoy it for what it is, a job where you get to travel.

[Ollie Onion]

From personal experience, life as an FO in a legacy carrier beats the life of a Captain at a low cost carrier……. In my opinion of course.

[cLeArIcE]

From personal experience, life as an FO in a legacy carrier beats the life of a Captain at a low cost carrier……. In my opinion of course.
I'm not saying it isn't. I don't personally know, but I would imagine you'd still get better pay and treatment as a QF WB FO then a JQ Captain.
But, there is a huge amount of movement at JQ with rumours of more to come. A whole lot of new airbus commands and no doubt that will Lead to 787 FO spots. More LRs and XLRs to come etc. I would imagine there are a lot of Airbus FOs looking at the superior lifestyle on the 787.
​​​​​A JQ 787 FO v QF 737 FO wouldn't be that far apart on terms and conditions surely? (Assuming JQ doesn't scrap the 787 operation of course...)
Any FO close to those positions has a big decision to make. Joining QF below 100 externals and onto the "B" scale isn't exactly exciting. Even for those who do decide to go, they are jaded with the company before they even start!
If Qantas had shown even the slightest respect to it's group pilot and:
1. Prioritised group hirings over external recruitment
2. Offered seniority numbers to those who can't be immediately released by their group airline
3. Not hired internal candidates onto the new rubbish B scale for SOs,
No one would be complaining. But as been demonstrated numerous times, no one in management could give a rats.
​​​​​

[Ollie Onion]

I'm not saying it isn't. I don't personally know, but I would imagine you'd still get better pay and treatment as a QF WB FO then a JQ Captain.
But, there is a huge amount of movement at JQ with rumours of more to come. A whole lot of new airbus commands and no doubt that will Lead to 787 FO spots. More LRs and XLRs to come etc. I would imagine there are a lot of Airbus FOs looking at the superior lifestyle on the 787.
​​​​​A JQ 787 FO v QF 737 FO wouldn't be that far apart on terms and conditions surely? (Assuming JQ doesn't scrap the 787 operation of course...)
Any FO close to those positions has a big decision to make. Joining QF below 100 externals and onto the "B" scale isn't exactly exciting. Even for those who do decide to go, they are jaded with the company before they even start!
If Qantas had shown even the slightest respect to it's group pilot and:
1. Prioritised group hirings over external recruitment
2. Offered seniority numbers to those who can't be immediately released by their group airline
3. Not hired internal candidates onto the new rubbish B scale for SOs,
No one would be complaining. But as been demonstrated numerous times, no one in management could give a rats.
​​​​​

can’t disagree with any of that, would have been a show of good faith to give internals seniority numbers based on acceptance date. That would have required agreement of the Mainline pilot group though and we all know they will NEVER go out of their way to help out group pilots.

[ScepticalOptomist]

That would have required agreement of the Mainline pilot group though and we all know they will NEVER go out of their way to help out group pilots.

Ollie I’m sure you’re a decent person, and would go out of your way to help every other group pilot, however saying stuff like that is why the IR strategy of divide and conquer works so well against us.

[dragon man]

A former much maligned president of AIPA pushed a group seniority list.

[Ollie Onion]

It came close in around 2017, I was at a meeting were some very senior managers said that Joyce wanted Group Seniority to address retention of pilots. The proposal was a Group List where you are ranked on your date of joining, whenever ANY entity needed to recruit then the positions would be advertised internally and allocated via the Group Seniority number.

Only when all positions were allocated could roles be advertised externally to fill the gaps that were left. It would have resulted in ALL mainline jobs going to internal candidates ( probably) and all jobs into the group via the ‘less’ popular group companies. Advantage would have been certainty of movement for internal candidates and certainty of career path for new join externals I.e may have to start in Network but I know I will have access to other opportunities.

That was as far as it it went because guess what, it got shot down by Mainline unions and the company dropped the idea in favour of the current system. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies, simple as that.

I was also at a meeting where the head of AIPA shot down supporting a Jetconnect court case for equal pay to the mainline pilots as it was their position not to support any pilot flying a Qantas Branded Aircraft unless they were employed on the Mainline contract. So you can call me sceptical if you like but I have seen AIPA give the middle finger to group pilots on a number of occasions where there may have been some significant benefits for the group at nil cost to the Mainline Award. Now this isn’t exclusive to Qantas, it is a sign that Qantas’ IR strategy has worked perfectly when one union won’t cooperate with another as a matter of principal.

[Callsign Please]

Will any of those feelings change now that AIPA is making a play for subsidiary pilot membership? I’d hope it’s not another split for the group to exploit.

[cloudsurfng]

It came close in around 2017, I was at a meeting were some very senior managers said that Joyce wanted Group Seniority to address retention of pilots. The proposal was a Group List where you are ranked on your date of joining, whenever ANY entity needed to recruit then the positions would be advertised internally and allocated via the Group Seniority number.

Only when all positions were allocated could roles be advertised externally to fill the gaps that were left. It would have resulted in ALL mainline jobs going to internal candidates ( probably) and all jobs into the group via the ‘less’ popular group companies. Advantage would have been certainty of movement for internal candidates and certainty of career path for new join externals I.e may have to start in Network but I know I will have access to other opportunities.

That was as far as it it went because guess what, it got shot down by Mainline unions and the company dropped the idea in favour of the current system. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies, simple as that.

I was also at a meeting where the head of AIPA shot down supporting a Jetconnect court case for equal pay to the mainline pilots as it was their position not to support any pilot flying a Qantas Branded Aircraft unless they were employed on the Mainline contract. So you can call me sceptical if you like but I have seen AIPA give the middle finger to group pilots on a number of occasions where there may have been some significant benefits for the group at nil cost to the Mainline Award. Now this isn’t exclusive to Qantas, it is a sign that Qantas’ IR strategy has worked perfectly when one union won’t cooperate with another as a matter of principal.

how do you support a court case for a group of pilots you don’t represent? I’m calling bull****.

[aussieflyboy]

Over the next 10 years the number of Mainline domestic pilots will become smaller and smaller.

The NEOs will still fly the trunk capital city routes at peak times but A220s will be a much more common sight.

If your a pilot wanting to try international for a few years then settle on the domestic fleet and have a family your applying to the wrong company by applying for mainline.

[morno]

Haha yeah good one

[SandyPalms]

There is so much made up Bulls$&t in this industry. Non of what Ollie says that is true. In fact, it’s not even legal.

[dr dre]

Over the next 10 years the number of Mainline domestic pilots will become smaller and smaller.

Not according to forecast recruitment vs retirements for the next 5 years at least. Mainline pilot establishment planned to be about 30% bigger than early 2022 levels.

​​​​​​​The NEOs will still fly the trunk capital city routes at peak times but A220s will be a much more common sight.​​​​​​​

The reason why they're getting a 200 seat aircraft to replace a 174 seat one is forecast passenger growth. None of the major airports in Australia, with the exception of Perth, are planning for new terminal space in the next decade or so. There won't be enough room to park a greater number of A220s in somewhere like Sydney T3. They need bigger aircraft. Added to that the A220 is being operated, for now, by a lower paid regional carrier, which will always suffer long term pilot shortage issues hampering their growth. I could foresee that in the longer term if the company did want to integrate A220 flying on existing mainline routes the option of it being integrated into mainline would have to be considered.

​​​​​​​If your a pilot wanting to try international for a few years then settle on the domestic fleet and have a family your applying to the wrong company by applying for mainline.

Interesting point but in all my years of aviation the propensity to have a family or not has no bearing on whether you migrate to international or domestic flying. For a lot of people international rosters fit more into their chosen family lifestyle.

[aussieflyboy]

Some good points made there. It’ll certainly be interesting to see how it pans out over the next 10 years. New Sydney Airport will change things.

Based on tonnage vs $ (roughly) my understanding is that the A220 pilots at QF will be paid something similar to an A321 QF pilot.

A220 70T Capt on a little over $200K vs A321 101T Capt on $270K.

The 220s will never be operated under the mainline banner.

[Beer Baron]

It came close in around 2017, I was at a meeting were some very senior managers said that Joyce wanted Group Seniority to address retention of pilots.

That was as far as it it went because guess what, it got shot down by Mainline unions and the company dropped the idea in favour of the current system. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies, simple as that.

I was also at a meeting where the head of AIPA shot down supporting a Jetconnect court case for equal pay to the mainline pilots as it was their position not to support any pilot flying a Qantas Branded Aircraft unless they were employed on the Mainline contract. So you can call me sceptical if you like but I have seen AIPA give the middle finger to group pilots on a number of occasions where there may have been some significant benefits for the group at nil cost to the Mainline Award.
This is pure garbage.

Regarding a Group seniority list:
- I was on the AIPA committee in 2017 and a Group Opportunity List had long been our stated desire.
- Why would Mainline shoot it down, it doesn’t effect anyone at Mainline negatively so why would they care.
- And finally, as if Joyce gives a sh1t what we wanted. If the CEO wanted a Group list then there would be a Group list today. The bloke locked us out and stood us down, our feelings don’t factor much in his decision making.

As for AIPA not supporting a court case to get Jet Connect equal pay to mainline…. IT WAS AIPA’s COURT CASE!

Do some basic research, AIPA took Qantas to court to get JetConnect covered by Australia industrial law. Ie. put their pilots on the SH EA. It went to the full bench of the FWC and we narrowly lost 2-1. So your assertion is patently absurd.
AIPA Vs Qantas/JetConnect article (https://australianaviation.com.au/2011/09/fair-work-dismisses-aipa-qantas-jetconnect-deception-case/)

[Lookleft]

It came close in around 2017, I was at a meeting were some very senior managers said that Joyce wanted Group Seniority to address retention of pilots. The proposal was a Group List where you are ranked on your date of joining, whenever ANY entity needed to recruit then the positions would be advertised internally and allocated via the Group Seniority number.

I'm fairly certain that the current AIPA President has been advocating a Group Seniority list for a while. If they were Jetstar Senior Managers then you were being lied to. How do I know? Their lips would have been moving. Joyce's solution to the impending pilot shortage was to establish a self-funded cadet scheme at Toowoomba.

[RealSatoshi]

Regarding a Group seniority list:
- Why would Mainline shoot it down, it doesn’t effect anyone at Mainline negatively so why would they care.
What about a 10th year Dash 8 Captain versus a 2nd year QF SO or 7th year QF FO for the next vacancy?

[dr dre]

What about a 10th year Dash 8 Captain versus a 2nd year QF SO or 7th year QF FO for the next vacancy?

There was already a seniority list integration, the Q and A pilots post QF/Australian merger. Was it perfect? No, but integrating lists will never be.

Group seniority will, on the whole, advantage mainline pilots the most, as they have the longest time in the group.

[Johnny Cash IBE]

So how does a highly motivated Aussie individual stuck in the sandpit with a current GCAA medical apply for this position? :ugh:
Go do your Oz medical with a CASA approved doctor in the UAE, simples!

[DashTrash.]

What about a 10th year Dash 8 Captain versus a 2nd year QF SO or 7th year QF FO for the next vacancy?

A group list should be in the following order

1) Mainline pilots as per their seniority
then,
2) Everyone else in order of date of join

there have been too many people left behind and jaded after being deemed “too valuable” to release whilst they see more junior colleagues allowed to progress their career.

it has cost myself and many others years of seniority and a multitude of 100’s of thousands. Something needs to change not for myself but for sake of future pilots coming through the system.

[cloudsurfng]

What about a 10th year Dash 8 Captain versus a 2nd year QF SO or 7th year QF FO for the next vacancy?

what vacancy do you think a 7th year QF FO would be able to get 😂😂😂

[Beer Baron]

What about a 10th year Dash 8 Captain versus a 2nd year QF SO or 7th year QF FO for the next vacancy?
It is a hypothetical question as no Group list structure is actually in place but OlliOnion’s post seemed to be about a structure that determines who gets hired into mainline at the bottom rung. So that wouldn’t allow the transfer you suggest.

For a Group list that allowed promotional transfers between entities, you can have an arrangement like DashTrash outlined. On the day it starts all pilots at each entity have priority for promotion within their entity. Everyone hired from then on is on a Group wide DOJ seniority list. Still no disadvantage to current pilots at any entity.

It won’t happen though, as Qantas hate paying for pilots to transfer between aircraft. Tens of thousand of dollars in training costs and months of no or limited productivity. See how they just doubled mainline training freeze periods. Siloed pilot groups on single aircraft types saves money and they don’t care if we like it or not.

[RealSatoshi]

what vacancy do you think a 7th year QF FO would be able to get 😂😂😂
Who knows...how long does it take in a downturn, for example, to get a P2 seat on the A380...more or less than 7 years?

It won’t happen though, as Qantas hate paying for pilots to transfer between aircraft. Tens of thousand of dollars in training costs and months of no or limited productivity. See how they just doubled mainline training freeze periods. Siloed pilot groups on single aircraft types saves money and they don’t care if we like it or not.
Indeed, this ^ here ^ the real reason it'll probably never fly (unfortunately)

[dr dre]

It won’t happen though, as Qantas hate paying for pilots to transfer between aircraft. Tens of thousand of dollars in training costs and months of no or limited productivity. See how they just doubled mainline training freeze periods. Siloed pilot groups on single aircraft types saves money and they don’t care if we like it or not.

Or if it does come to fruition there would be trade offs to offset the cost of training, like bonds, type freezes, financial penalties for moving, reduced wages etc.

[RealSatoshi]

Or if it does come to fruition...
Maybe it's time one of the Group Companies' pilots puts it on their EBA wish list in order to get the ball rolling up against the 3% group wage policy :E

[pinkpanther1]

Forgive my ignorance, but is there anything actually stopping them from removing the 'link' from the network 320s or the upcoming NJS 220s and running them as 'Qantas' branded?

[noclue]

Just wack a MEL on the paint work. NEF the **** out of the “link”

[dr dre]

Forgive my ignorance, but is there anything actually stopping them from removing the 'link' from the network 320s or the upcoming NJS 220s and running them as 'Qantas' branded?

No, they could take paint over the ‘Link’ on a Dash 8 if they wanted to, or a JQ aircraft, or even an EFA one. They already have in a way with Jetconnect.

There’s 717s and E190s running around with business class seats on capital city routes with the word ‘Link’ on the side, so not much difference anymore.

[Transition Layer]

No, they could take paint over the ‘Link’ on a Dash 8 if they wanted to, or a JQ aircraft, or even an EFA one. They already have in a way with Jetconnect.

There’s 717s and E190s running around with business class seats on capital city routes with the word ‘Link’ on the side, so not much difference anymore.
And the 190s curiously use the “Qantas” call sign, unlike any other subsidiary (apart from Jitconnict)

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

And the 190s curiously use the “Qantas” call sign, unlike any other subsidiary (apart from Jitconnict)
And EFA and Atlas.

[Transition Layer]

And EFA and Atlas.
Freighters don’t count :p

[soseg]

I can already hear the excited network pilots over the possibility of entirely stealing the mainline RPT network out west for half the wage. Wooh, let’s fly a hand me down airbus for $120k as an FO.

Fun fact, the cleaners they fly out to the mines who go out to scrub toilet bowls at mine sites literally get paid more than Network FOs. And before any of you pipe up — go enquire about it on your next day-stay.

[dr dre]

I can already hear the excited network pilots over the possibility of entirely stealing the mainline RPT network out west for half the wage. Wooh, let’s fly a hand me down airbus for $120k as an FO.


Network can barely keep their current level of flying operational, just like all the other subsidiaries. The ability to keep pilots on a wage of low $100k for a jet FO in the current market is not sustainable. At least one subsidiary has apparently put out the red alert for losing crew. And the others aren’t far off.

I have no doubt management would outsource all mainline flying if they could, fortunately supply and demand isn’t on their side at the moment. Plus have heard some rumblings that the IR types are realising that they have to keep people within the group or otherwise they’re at risk of losing them to the outside in the long run. For most people at a subsidiary that means some realistic profession to mainline, not a tiny drip feed. Apparently most recruiting this year will be internal as a consequence, according to a previous thread.

For instance a couple of thousand Airbus hours and the world’s your oyster, off to the ME and then 350/380 command within 4 years. Or 747 freighter skipper within 4 years.

[Gnadenburg]

What happens when QF buys another airline? More expectations to meet to avoid expensive and crippling rates of pilot attrition. Is this model of career progression sustainable? As an outsider observing, with the upcoming training required in the Group, there’s no pleasing everyone and the mess could well be unmanageable.

There’s more than a trickle of pilots returning abroad to markets that are arguably still paying COVID rates. Improvements and emerging opportunities in recovering regions, will see many more leave subsidiaries and have management scratching their heads.

[SO4life]

Has anyone that interviewed (external) in the second half of 2022 got a start date yet? Surly they must be getting close to allocating some more start dates?

[On Guard]

Has anyone that interviewed (external) in the second half of 2022 got a start date yet? Surly they must be getting close to allocating some more start dates?

No, I got the yes in October and still haven’t heard. :-(

[Contigo]

No, I got the yes in October and still haven’t heard. :-(

Same here Sim done in August and got hold file email in September and no word from them still.

I know others I interviewed with are the same and others that interviewed a few weeks prior are also yet to hear anything. Hopefully something will come in the next few weeks months.

[tictac123]

The refueller tells me there's a handful of QFPP graduates about to start at Jetstar as F/Os on the A320, with whatever dozens of hours they have at the end of the program.

[Brakerider]

Same here Sim done in August and got hold file email in September and no word from them still.

I know others I interviewed with are the same and others that interviewed a few weeks prior are also yet to hear anything. Hopefully something will come in the next few weeks months.

there’s still people starting from the 2018 recruitment drive starting in the coming months. Some people waited 4 weeks, some waited 4 years. There is no point trying to make sense of HR.

[Avi8terdude2023]

Has anyone got word for March, April, or May Course Dates being a thing? I know someone who is starting Feb, interview back in June but it’s been silent for others I know that interviewed just after since.

[On Guard]

Has anyone got word for March, April, or May Course Dates being a thing? I know someone who is starting Feb, interview back in June but it’s been silent for others I know that interviewed just after since.

No, I know Feb course was filled but I get the feeling they’re backlogged as I have heard of no one from March onwards.

[soseg]

Hiring is about to halt. The seniority list is back up to where it was pre covid for the last 3 dreamliners.

It'll be a trickle from now on as QF is down 4 widebodys in the last two years.

Expect to be given a secondment offer to go to NJS to fly the A220 on whatever the NJS conditions are.

[dr dre]

Hiring is about to halt. The seniority list is back up to where it was pre covid for the last 3 dreamliners.

It'll be a trickle from now on as QF is down 4 widebodys in the last two years.

Expect to be given a secondment offer to go to NJS to fly the A220 on whatever the NJS conditions are.

Several more 380s worth to crew, and the 330 isn't fully utilised yet. Recruitment for the A350 starts soon, and that'll be over and above current numbers.
The projected recruitment numbers are approx 200 new recruits per year for the next 4 years.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Hiring is about to halt. The seniority list is back up to where it was pre covid for the last 3 dreamliners.

It'll be a trickle from now on as QF is down 4 widebodys in the last two years.

Expect to be given a secondment offer to go to NJS to fly the A220 on whatever the NJS conditions are.

Haha, not likely.

Dr Dre is on the money..

[Icarus2001]

PPRUNE at its neurotic best. Recruitment somewhere between ZERO per year and 400 per year. Not really helpful.

[dragon man]

Throw in the possibility of a major war plus more interest rate rises and a probable recession in Australia and the reality is no one knows how long recruitment will continue for.

[Icarus2001]

The idea of a recession really gets overplayed in its effect. Anyone with a steady job is actually better of in a recession, prices drop or stagnate. A recession that we are likely to have would be just under zero or slightly negative growth, hardly something that will stifle demand for air travel. Australia still has not welcomed back all the foreign students and foreign workers so demand is still rising.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Several more 380s worth to crew, and the 330 isn't fully utilised yet. Recruitment for the A350 starts soon, and that'll be over and above current numbers.
The projected recruitment numbers are approx 200 new recruits per year for the next 4 years.

You forgot to mention the pilots actually leaving to go to better jobs OS. Things are bad when the national carrier is losing people.

[kcboy]

The idea of a recession really gets overplayed in its effect. Anyone with a steady job is actually better of in a recession, prices drop or stagnate. A recession that we are likely to have would be just under zero or slightly negative growth, hardly something that will stifle demand for air travel. Australia still has not welcomed back all the foreign students and foreign workers so demand is still rising.

yeah you’re clearly born in 2001

[soseg]

You forgot to mention the pilots actually leaving to go to better jobs OS. Things are bad when the national carrier is losing people.

How many? I know there's been a few who have said no to start dates.

Rumour late last year was that 6 SO's went to Atlas. That's the last I've heard.

Will be comparing the seniority lists when it's updated in July out of genuine curiosity.

[Fujiroll76]

How many? I know there's been a few who have said no to start dates.

Rumour late last year was that 6 SO's went to Atlas. That's the last I've heard.

Will be comparing the seniority lists when it's updated in July out of genuine curiosity.

Correct 6 passed up a start date and already regretting that decision. Just like all the expats who have left Australia for “greener pastures”. Yet they still try and sell living in the US as some magical experience.

As per my previous post - recruitment will continue but will slow for the next 12 months. 787 fleet is stable, yet to see where the numbers fall when SFO and NY start in a few months. 787 and 330 back to MGH.

380 still 12 months away until we see 2 more return. Direct entry SO on Z scale to happen next month

Recruitment for the 350, we all know where that stands. An aircraft not due for the best part of 3 years - the 330 will carry a surplus so they can hire onto the Z scale conditions in the meantime.

If you’re an internal…good luck mid 2024 seems likely

[RealSatoshi]

Just like all the expats who have left Australia for “greener pastures”.
That is a very broad statement and theoretically untrue...

[Fujiroll76]

That is a very broad statement and theoretically untrue...

Apologies…99% of them.

[morno]

Correct 6 passed up a start date and already regretting that decision. Just like all the expats who have left Australia for “greener pastures”. Yet they still try and sell living in the US as some magical experience.

As per my previous post - recruitment will continue but will slow for the next 12 months. 787 fleet is stable, yet to see where the numbers fall when SFO and NY start in a few months. 787 and 330 back to MGH.

380 still 12 months away until we see 2 more return. Direct entry SO on Z scale to happen next month

Recruitment for the 350, we all know where that stands. An aircraft not due for the best part of 3 years - the 330 will carry a surplus so they can hire onto the Z scale conditions in the meantime.

If you’re an internal…good luck mid 2024 seems likely

330 is back to MGH because 2 are out for maintenance, and HKG can’t supply enough ground handlers to have 2 A330 flights a day.

[maggot]

330 is back to MGH because 2 are out for maintenance, and HKG can’t supply enough ground handlers to have 2 A330 flights a day.
And how many to EFA? Meanwhile freight rates aren't what they planned on any more

[soseg]

Correct 6 passed up a start date and already regretting that decision. Just like all the expats who have left Australia for “greener pastures”. Yet they still try and sell living in the US as some magical experience.

As per my previous post - recruitment will continue but will slow for the next 12 months. 787 fleet is stable, yet to see where the numbers fall when SFO and NY start in a few months. 787 and 330 back to MGH.

380 still 12 months away until we see 2 more return. Direct entry SO on Z scale to happen next month

Recruitment for the 350, we all know where that stands. An aircraft not due for the best part of 3 years - the 330 will carry a surplus so they can hire onto the Z scale conditions in the meantime.

If you’re an internal…good luck mid 2024 seems likely

I personally know about 10 guys flying in the USA at the moment. Close friends too, not distant. All loving it.
In fact one went there years ago before the hype and has returned for family reasons to fly for a subsidiary here in Oz. Biggest regret of his life. Already considering going back.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I personally know about 10 guys flying in the USA at the moment. Close friends too, not distant. All loving it.
In fact one went there years ago before the hype and has returned for family reasons to fly for a subsidiary here in Oz. Biggest regret of his life. Already considering going back.

This has been my experience too. Australia is not the utopia that the die hards insist it is, it’s quite literally a middle of the road joint in which to exist.

https://michaelwest.com.au/shareholders-re-joyce-again-as-qantas-ignores-taxpayers-passengers-and-staff/

If the sort of things in this article are deemed to be ok, nay, applauded and encouraged industrial behaviour, it’s going to get a lot worse.

[Capt Fathom]

I don't think anyone is saying that flying in Australia is utopia.

But the majority of people born here are more than happy to settle down and make a career at home. Some may have different dreams, and the flexibility and motivation to travel to other countries and jump through their hoops! Good for them.

Having done the hard yards with foreign licensing and getting to know your new neighbours, there's plenty of incentive to make a go of it.
But it won't work out for everyone.

[Ladloy]

This has been my experience too. Australia is not the utopia that the die hards insist it is, it’s quite literally a middle of the road joint in which to exist. https://michaelwest.com.au/shareholders-re-joyce-again-as-qantas-ignores-taxpayers-passengers-and-staff/ If the sort of things in this article are deemed to be ok, nay, applauded and encouraged industrial behaviour, it’s going to get a lot worse.that's a really well written news story for Aviation related matters

[gordonfvckingramsay]

that's a really well written news story for Aviation related matters

Ain’t independence grand?

[Contigo]

Speaking to a friend recently they told me JQ has taken some new FOs straight from QGPA in Toowoomba, first job, fresh CPL/MEIR. Straight into the right seat of a A320. This doesn't have next major accident written all over it does it? I wonder if the line training Captains know that they will be basically single pilot ops for quite some time while the guys/gals slowly work their way up from past row 30 over the course of many many months. It seems ridiculous in a country with such a well developed GA industry that they think this is the best they can get.

[transition_alt]

Speaking to a friend recently they told me JQ has taken some new FOs straight from QGPA in Toowoomba, first job, fresh CPL/MEIR. Straight into the right seat of a A320. This doesn't have next major accident written all over it does it? I wonder if the line training Captains know that they will be basically single pilot ops for quite some time while the guys/gals slowly work their way up from past row 30 over the course of many many months. It seems ridiculous in a country with such a well developed GA industry that they think this is the best they can get.

Wow.

Let’s not forget aviation in Europe. Most of their first jobs are the right seat of a B737/A320. Absolutely no difference here.

A pilot is a product of the company who trains them, the QF group have a good reputation in this instance and the decision making of these individuals will come in due course.

They will be perfectly safe operators.

[xaos03]

Speaking to a friend recently they told me JQ has taken some new FOs straight from QGPA in Toowoomba, first job, fresh CPL/MEIR. Straight into the right seat of a A320. This doesn't have next major accident written all over it does it? I wonder if the line training Captains know that they will be basically single pilot ops for quite some time while the guys/gals slowly work their way up from past row 30 over the course of many many months. It seems ridiculous in a country with such a well developed GA industry that they think this is the best they can get.

I don’t even want to think about the dive salaries will continue too take…

[cLeArIcE]

For all of Jetstar's many faults and incompetence, the training department are very good at doing this. Won't be an issue. The one thing they do much better than Qantas.

[Sparrows.]

This doesn't have next major accident written all over it does it?

Do you realize Jetstar has been hiring pilots with a bare CPL/MECIR and some with sub 200 hours since approximately 2011? Many of whom now have commands and some are even the training captains themselves now.

[Ladloy]

Do you realize Jetstar has been hiring pilots with a bare CPL/MECIR and some with sub 200 hours since approximately 2011? Many of whom now have commands and some are even the training captains themselves now.
but but but GA experience!

[tossbag]

that's a really well written news story for Aviation related matters

Except for the bastard criticising RSL's, I'd rather hang out in a rissole than a qantas lounge any day, especially Friday arvo at happy hour, or when the Mentals are playing.

[morno]

Speaking to a friend recently they told me JQ has taken some new FOs straight from QGPA in Toowoomba, first job, fresh CPL/MEIR. Straight into the right seat of a A320. This doesn't have next major accident written all over it does it? I wonder if the line training Captains know that they will be basically single pilot ops for quite some time while the guys/gals slowly work their way up from past row 30 over the course of many many months. It seems ridiculous in a country with such a well developed GA industry that they think this is the best they can get.

Why would it have accident written all over it? It’s not a space shuttle :rolleyes:

As others have just said, you realise that Jetstar has been doing it for a number of years right? And a fair majority of the world also does it? And actually you know what, I reckon if you did a search of air transport jet hull accidents over the years, you wouldn’t find many where the FO had 200hrs.

[Ollie Onion]

Speaking to a friend recently they told me JQ has taken some new FOs straight from QGPA in Toowoomba, first job, fresh CPL/MEIR. Straight into the right seat of a A320. This doesn't have next major accident written all over it does it? I wonder if the line training Captains know that they will be basically single pilot ops for quite some time while the guys/gals slowly work their way up from past row 30 over the course of many many months. It seems ridiculous in a country with such a well developed GA industry that they think this is the best they can get.

what a ridiculous comment, who says the 200 hour recruits aren’t ‘the best’ Jetstar can get. Working in GA doesn’t guarantee the person is some kind of aviation hotshot.

[Bumble_Pilot]

Can someone in the know tell me the pro’s/cons of going SO widebodies VS FO narrows?

[Brakerider]

Can someone in the know tell me the pro’s/cons of going SO widebodies VS FO narrows?

My brief 2 cents.

SO lifestyle is good. Big blocks of time off. Commutable from almost anywhere in Aus if you choose. QOL reduces when you owe hours / blank line as days off are not protected.

A new hire FO will be paid better than any B-Scale SO regardless of fleet. You will work significantly more than most SOs, but when you're on top of the cage you can generally have a fair amount of time off if you want it. Commuting is not impossible but significantly more difficult. 28 day rosters may suit you better and days off are protected.

Worth noting, you cannot regress from FO-->SO under normal circumstances if you decide to take the 737 day one and it doesn't work for you.

[transition_alt]

My brief 2 cents.

SO lifestyle is good. Big blocks of time off. Commutable from almost anywhere in Aus if you choose. QOL reduces when you owe hours / blank line as days off are not protected.

A new hire FO will be paid better than any B-Scale SO regardless of fleet. You will work significantly more than most SOs, but when you're on top of the cage you can generally have a fair amount of time off if you want it. Commuting is not impossible but significantly more difficult. 28 day rosters may suit you better and days off are protected.

Worth noting, you cannot regress from FO-->SO under normal circumstances if you decide to take the 737 day one and it doesn't work for you.

Are they giving people the choice between SO/FO when they commence?

[Brakerider]

Are they giving people the choice between SO/FO when they commence?

I believe due to a shortage, particularly 737 MEL, it is being offered day 1, or even earlier to suitably qualified applicants (on a handshake agreement, as you must be hired as an SO). Rumour has it, a few Virgin 737 drivers were offered class dates on the proviso they signed up for 737 day 1. They changed their mind after signing the papers, much to HRs distaste.

[dr dre]

I believe due to a shortage, particularly 737 MEL, it is being offered day 1, or even earlier to suitably qualified applicants (on a handshake agreement, as you must be hired as an SO). Rumour has it, a few Virgin 737 drivers were offered class dates on the proviso they signed up for 737 day 1. They changed their mind after signing the papers, much to HRs distaste.

They would be giving away $. With current hours flown most 737 drivers, even on year 1 scales, would have a total yearly gross starting with a 2. New hire S/Os first year rates Airbus would be $110k plus allowances, 787 $125k.

[ScepticalOptomist]

They would be giving away $. With current hours flown most 737 drivers, even on year 1 scales, would have a total yearly gross starting with a 2. New hire S/Os first year rates Airbus would be $110k plus allowances, 787 $125k.

Flown with a few of them - they’re happy to trade the $$ for the chunks of time at home.

Thankfully, not everyone is driven by the dollar.

[On Guard]

Flown with a few of them - they’re happy to trade the $$ for the chunks of time at home.

Thankfully, not everyone is driven by the dollar.

Still no word on upcoming courses from those inside? Seems like no March or April course?

[Avi8terdude2023]

Still no word on upcoming courses from those inside? Seems like no March or April course?

not sure on March or April but I know someone on the May course and apparently not as many hired as previous courses

[Head in the Cloud]

They would be giving away $. With current hours flown most 737 drivers, even on year 1 scales, would have a total yearly gross starting with a 2. New hire S/Os first year rates Airbus would be $110k plus allowances, 787 $125k.
What sort of allowances would someone expect on the 330 at the moment over the year? Average pay per fortnight?

Has the training wage changed on this new scale too?

Thanks in advance

[Ladloy]

Still no word on upcoming courses from those inside? Seems like no March or April course?
some people have May dates

[SixDemonBag]

Courses slowed for 2-3 months due to the lack of training resources, then back to 20 a month for a good while.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Still no word on upcoming courses from those inside? Seems like no March or April course?

Should kick off properly in May I've been told.

[Space Yak]

They would be giving away $. With current hours flown most 737 drivers, even on year 1 scales, would have a total yearly gross starting with a 2. New hire S/Os first year rates Airbus would be $110k plus allowances, 787 $125k.

How much do Jetconnect pay now days?

[SixDemonBag]

How much do Jetconnect pay now days?

depends on how short-sighted you were

[LostontheLOC]

Correct 6 passed up a start date and already regretting that decision. Just like all the expats who have left Australia for “greener pastures”.

Absolutely laughable!! I know 1 or 2 of these guys and they are, definitely, not, regretting it - if you need to believe that qantas is the best in the world go for it, but they aren't even close to it.

Anyone know why Qantas is tanking 90% of internal applications, when they have absolute spuds on the hold, are they really the best candidates or are they so pathetically cheap they want to keep internals from progressing?

[KAPAC]

Not much changes , in the 90’s 2 pilots in 10 years got into mainline from the %100 owned subsidiary I worked in, we all got interviewed, to show they were being fair . At same time 9 a month taken from oppositions operation. It’s just business .

[cLeArIcE]

I assume all new hires (who are not virgin 737 FOs) are going onto the 330 in Syd/ Mel or 787 Perth is that correct? Would I be correct that the new B scale is around 120k base plus approximately 20k in allowances? is what they are getting roughly?

[ScepticalOptomist]

I assume all new hires (who are not virgin 737 FOs) are going onto the 330 in Syd/ Mel or 787 Perth is that correct? Would I be correct that the new B scale is around 120k base plus approximately 20k in allowances? is what they are getting roughly?

Most new SO’s will end up 330/350 or 787 in SYD / MEL / PER.

The base will be approx $125K plus allowances of around $20K - $30K depending on trips.

[morno]

330/350 SO Base to begin with, on MGH, is about $107k a year. Overtime depends upon trips you do. Hard to give an estimate on that figure.

If you fly more than MGH, then it’ll push it up. But don’t plan for things that are completely within the control of the airline.

Allowances can vary depending upon base and type. Example being if you’re doing a Singapore, it’s about $400/day. If you’re in Jo’Burg, it’s only about $180/day (allowances are paid as DTA from sign in to sign off). Use $20-30k as a very rough guide.

[aussieflyboy]

Do you guys often use allowances to prop up your average salary? You have to eat while your away yeah?

[dr dre]

Do you guys often use allowances to prop up your average salary? You have to eat while your away yeah?

You have to dig into your salary to eat at home too.

It depends. You can be a pauper, bring packet noodles and keep almost all your allowance for a slip (although it’s paid into your bank account these days).

I guess it correlates to how much lavish of a lifestyle you’re willing to live in your day to day life. Is a modest house in a middle class suburb with a generic car and public school for the kids OK for you? Or do you need the big house in the flash suburb with the Mercedes and boarding school fees too?

[C441]

Do you guys often use allowances to prop up your average salary? You have to eat while your away yeah?
The overseas allowances are based on the ATO rates (page 10 & 11 here) (https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/pdf/pbr/td2022-010.pdf) and calculated by 'hours in port'. As a new S/O you'll roughly get between $9 and $12 per hour in port and most stays are 24 hours or more, especially on US and London trips. Suffice to say they are sufficient to afford to eat well at decent restaurants and have (quite) a few beers/wines/drinks and engage in some entertaining activity of your choice (so as not to be confined to your room). Sometimes you may have some left over depending, as Dr Dre says, just how many/much of the aforementioned vices you partake in.:ok:

[Chad Gates]

The system had recently changed C441. You now get the full ATO rate including incidentals from sign on at home base, to sign off at home base (with rules about when the rate changes based on which level of the scale the place you are going is on). So you are also now getting DTA while in the air. The time in Port system is gone.

[RENURPP]

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/03/08/american-airlines-vows-pilot-pay-raises.html

a captain flying narrow-body planes would make $475,000 ($718,000AU) at the top of the scale, up $135,000. ($204,000 AU) from current pay, while the most senior captains of wide-body planes would make $590,000 per year. ($892,000 AU), a $170,000 increase ($257,000 AU) from today.

​​​​​​​My conversions.

Back in Aus it’s pay freezes and 2% a year. 🤨

[cLeArIcE]

Thanks morno and optomist. Appreciate it.
It's a bit less than I thought.

[Ollie Onion]

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/03/08/american-airlines-vows-pilot-pay-raises.html



Back in Aus it’s pay freezes and 2% a year. 🤨

It is disheartening when Qantas is making money hand over fist and we still get the ‘we have to keep hold in costs’ and they talk about recruitment but not retention!

[LostontheLOC]

It is disheartening when Qantas is making money hand over fist and we still get the ‘we have to keep hold in costs’ and they talk about recruitment but not retention!

No one to blame apart from the pilots in this case, if we accept the 2/3% pay increase and people actually think is a good deal we deserve what we get = nothing.

On the recruitment side, the emails came out for Jetstar saying "we will release candidates 2 per month starting at the end of 23 by seniority", sounds like the hold is going to last for many years.

[aussieflyboy]

Those figures are for post check-to-line. During training the salary is equivalent to about $80k p/a.

What this means is that Qantas Pilots pay for their own endorsement.

[BuzzBox]

It's more like $113k p/a for a 330/350 S/O before overtime, allowances and super. 787 S/O would be 129k, with less opportunity for overtime.

Gosh, an SO’s job on a 787 must be harder than the same job on an A330/350. Who would have thought? LOL

[morno]

Morno's numbers are not correct for min guarantee. It's more like $113k p/a for a 330/350 S/O before overtime, allowances and super. 787 S/O would be 129k, with less opportunity for overtime.

Those figures are for post check-to-line. During training the salary is equivalent to about $80k p/a.

Pretty sure I know my hourly rate :rolleyes:

$103 X 160 = $16,480 per bid period. $16,480 X 6.5 bid periods per year = $107,120 per year.

Tell me where I went wrong and I’ll happily be corrected.

[morno]

27.5 hrs of mandatory paid training p/a is the difference. I also used the 2023 pay rates as any S/Os joining in the near future would be on that by the time they have finished training.

Fair enough, I’ll agree with that.

However for most pays of the year (assuming only MGH), the payslip reflects more of a $107k’ish amount with the odd one above it.

[RealSatoshi]

$103 X 160 = $16,480 per bid period. $16,480 X 6.5 bid periods per year = $107,120 per year.
...and a few days ago people were calling out Network F100 FO's for having no respect for the Profession :sad:

[morno]

...and a few days ago people were calling out Network F100 FO's for having no respect for the Profession :sad:

I didn’t know that Network had S/O’s :ugh:

[directsosij]

Back in Aus it’s pay freezes and 2% a year. 🤨
How depressing.

[HEALY]

You’d struggle to rent a place in Maddington on a QF SO salary as well by the looks

[Icarus2001]

So you really think $120,000 pa would keep you out of the Maddington rental market?

https://www.realestate.com.au/rent/in-maddington,+wa+6109/list-1?source=refinement

You guys need to see the real world a little more.

[josephfeatherweight]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1284x1447/1678322163787_1eb0f3c4a2f13dbcdb1a2a76bd4bc1432572b66b.jpg
I'll just leave this here...

[Zeta_Reticuli]

So you really think $120,000 pa would keep you out of the Maddington rental market?

https://www.realestate.com.au/rent/in-maddington,+wa+6109/list-1?source=refinement

You guys need to see the real world a little more.

well lets see... did a quick calc on standard bills and food. Add in the $500 rental in Maddington, say 1 car loan for a toyota camry. $1380 a week, this includes power, regos, all insurances, food etc...divided between 52 weeks for 2 adults. So enjoy that $235 you have left over at the end of each week, and god help you if you have a hecs debt or children. All for the privilege of renting in Maddington. This country is officially a f..king joke!

[Gazza mate]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1284x1447/1678322163787_1eb0f3c4a2f13dbcdb1a2a76bd4bc1432572b66b.jpg
I'll just leave this here...

Wow $890k pa in Aussie dollars and the shortage has only really started within the last 12 months. I never had any ambition to fly in the Middle East or Asia but to live in the US and earn that kind of money definitely has my attention.

$720AUD for narrow body command ain’t bad either especially considering time to command at the moment is 18 months. The last few vacancies at American and United had unfilled 737/320 command slots.

[soseg]

So you really think $120,000 pa would keep you out of the Maddington rental market?

https://www.realestate.com.au/rent/in-maddington,+wa+6109/list-1?source=refinement

You guys need to see the real world a little more.

No jet pilot should live in conditions like that.

Aim higher. You're better than Maddington.

[SHVC]

Wow $890k pa in Aussie dollars and the shortage has only really started within the last 12 months. I never had any ambition to fly in the Middle East or Asia but to live in the US and earn that kind of money definitely has my attention.

$720AUD for narrow body command ain’t bad either especially considering time to command at the moment is 18 months. The last few vacancies at American and United had unfilled 737/320 command slots.

Yes $720k ain’t bad, however I’ll take my $250k live in a good country not be worried about being shot at whilst getting a coffee or sending my kids to school and wonder if I’ll be able to pick them up. America a crazy ass land to which there is not enough money in the world to get me there to even visit.

[davidclarke]

Yes $720k ain’t bad, however I’ll take my $250k live in a good country not be worried about being shot at whilst getting a coffee or sending my kids to school and wonder if I’ll be able to pick them up. America a crazy ass land to which there is not enough money in the world to get me there to even visit.


720k. I’ll take my chances at being shot.

[aussieflyboy]

Yes $720k ain’t bad, however I’ll take my $250k live in a good country not be worried about being shot at whilst getting a coffee or sending my kids to school and wonder if I’ll be able to pick them up. America a crazy ass land to which there is not enough money in the world to get me there to even visit.

Don’t believe everything you see on the movies mate.

[neville_nobody]

Yes $720k ain’t bad, however I’ll take my $250k live in a good country not be worried about being shot at whilst getting a coffee or sending my kids to school and wonder if I’ll be able to pick them up. America a crazy ass land to which there is not enough money in the world to get me there to even visit.


Realise that sort of money in the USA has much more purchasing power than earning it in Australia. Your kids could go to private schools and you could live in a expensive area where you aren’t going to get trouble. If you sell an Australian property you will buy a very nice house in most places in the USA even with the exchange rate. Tax is different but you’re not going to be losing half of your income. Your lifestyle will be incredible compared to anything you will do here as pilot.

[dr dre]

I don't know why peeps here are arguing about the opportunity to get a $720k AUD job, which would be a senior Captain after many years of service at a US Major airline. The Majors aren't taking E3's, will probably never take E3's and from some reports on the other thread some of the US regionals are now starting to limit E3 hiring. Maybe make some money with Atlas but rosters will be brutal.

The big money overseas that Australians with jet experience would be eligible for in future years are more communing style contracts to Asia or permanent positions in the M/E. You would be earning more but not $720k AUD equivalent, and you'd be working hard and spending a lot of time away from home.

So best to try and improve T&C's and career paths in this country.

[RealSatoshi]

Whenever you're told that you're not worth more...remember this:

2021 CEO Total Compensation (USD) as a function of Company Market Cap
0.0787% ----> Qantas : $5.577 Million @ $7.089 Billion Market Cap
0.0780% ----> American Airlines : $7.24 Million @ $9.287 Billion Market Cap

0.0729% ----> United Airlines : $9.85 Million @ $13.52 Billion Market Cap
0.0583% ----> Alaska Airlines : $3.21 Million @ $5.506 Billion Market Cap
0.0570% ----> Delta Airlines : $12.4 Million @ $21.74 Billion Market Cap
0.0282% ----> Southwest : $5.8 Million @ $20.54 Billion Market Cap

Yet, comparing a Top Tier QF A380 Captain to a Top Tier AA B777/B787 Captain (AA do not operate A380's), then the QF Captain is 107% behind...:sad:

[CaptainInsaneO]

I recall someone telling me once that Qantas pilots are the best paid pilots in the world. That couldn't be further from the truth now.

[dragon man]

FROM TODAYS AUSTRALIANQantas pilots who spent weeks in isolation after operating repatriation and freight flights during the Covid pandemic are fuming after many were excluded from a special dinner to thank them for their efforts.

It's understood Qantas staged the "special recognition" dinner at the airline's Mascot headquarters on February 15 with CEO Alan Joyce and his leadership team.

Pilots, engineers, airport staff and cabin crew plus their partners were among the 300 guests, who were chosen based on the number of flights they had undertaken, and the length of time they had spent in isolation.

Another 1400 people were given a certificate of appreciation, a pin and a $500 staff travel credit in recognition of the sacrifices they made during the pandemic.

"As one of our team who stepped up in this time of need, you displayed exceptional professionalism, teamwork and went above and beyond to provide a critical service to the Australian community," said the certificate, signed by Mr Joyce and Qantas chairman Richard Goyder.

"Your efforts were inspiring and demonstrated how to take the Spirit of Australia further. On behalf of the Oantas board and executive team we thank you."

The sentiments did not go down terribly well with pilots who were left off the dinner list, with some questioning what was the "cut off"

"Some did upwards of 200 to 300-days in home isolation or hotel quarantine. Some did months at Howard Springs at a stretch and all they got was a piece of photocopy paper from the CEO and chairman and staff travel credit" one pilot told The Australian.

"The chief pilot couldn't even call to see how were travelling at the height of it all. It was a real insult.

"Covid during the pandemic, said some of his colleagues had suffered marriage breakdowns as a result of the extraordinary conditions.

"There were others who did 150-days straight, and one did 200-days straight. That's just mind blowing," he said.

Although the staff credit was nice to have, the pilot said it wasn't always easy to use given how full flights were currently.

"I don't want to seem ungrateful but it only works if you can actually get on an aeroplane which for the last 12 months no-one could."

The offer of $500 in staff travel credit was extended is a distant memory but the after taste is still very bitter."

"I don't want to seem ungrateful but it only works if you can actually get on an aeroplane which for the last 12 months no-one could."

The offer of $500 in staff travel credit was extended to all non-executive employees after the Oantas half-year results, which saw the airline post a record $1.43bn profit for the six months to December 2022.

[Fujiroll76]

Absolutely laughable!! I know 1 or 2 of these guys and they are, definitely, not, regretting it - if you need to believe that qantas is the best in the world go for it, but they aren't even close to it.

Anyone know why Qantas is tanking 90% of internal applications, when they have absolute spuds on the hold, are they really the best candidates or are they so pathetically cheap they want to keep internals from progressing?

You sound very bitter. Either you bombed out on your interview OR you’re 1 of those who decided the grass was greener overseas and now regret that.

Regardless, for someone who doesn’t appreciate the lifestyle that Qantas offers - Why do you care about their recruitment process.

[Fujiroll76]

Do you guys often use allowances to prop up your average salary? You have to eat while your away yeah?

An example of 2022 allowances (787)
*Purely allowances, no overtime.

Total Allowance $25k
Total Spent $15k

I’d say this is above average (Spending) and can easily be less if you decide not to socialise.

[HappyBandit]

Aussieflyboy: Have a read up on the homicide rate with guns around the world. USA isn't actually too bad. Sth American countries, on the other hand.

[SHVC]

Aussieflyboy: Have a read up on the homicide rate with guns around the world. USA isn't actually too bad. Sth American countries, on the other hand.

Yeah it’s not too bad, until, it’s your doughters or sons school that get shot up or your wife at a supermarket and a crazed gunman goes on a rampage. The pay in OZ works for me.

[KAPAC]

Wife telling me she won’t take kids to states , safer in the Philippines she says . I’d have more chance of getting her to live in Mexico City . I got to cancel CNN channel.