Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme [Archive] - Page 11

The Rents

30th Apr 2011, 22:52

All you guys out there with your negative attitude just stink. What it boils down to is that the cost of accomodation in Hong Kong is high.

The cost of other goods and services are comparable with other major cities.

Cost out London, Berlin, Paris, Tokyo, New York, the list goes on and on.

Everybody, everywhere is getting screwed, the bankers made sure of that !

I think that the guys with a trashy attitude like some of you have got, should get out of your ivory towers and look at the prospects that a lot of these wannabees have if they don't get a cadetship with cx.

They don't live in a cost free world, many experience a high cost of living already and manage on a pitance. They may not have loads of disposable income in HK but with a package that gives them around 450,000 hkd pa as starters, they will get bye. With SO salary increases annually being around 60,000 hkd pa for each of the first 4 years that soon takes these guys to close on 700,000 hkd pa.

What is it I keep hearing, the SO's don't fly, they just eat butties, not a bad income for a buttie muncher !

These guys will eventually get quality flying time, most of them are young enough to justify a company/carear move in 7 or 8 years time, a lot of them will not have even reached their 30's by then.

So change the record.

Companies employ staff to earn them money, it's called real life when they are constantly trying to screw you. Look at the rest of your industry, there isn't one airline that is not trying constantly to become more efficient and cost effective.

If you can't understand that the markets dictate the value of the goods, tough luck on you.

What I would also like to point out is that you guys who keep saying ' the SO's better not start bitching about not having money and the poor working conditions when they fly with me', you don't deserve to be called a professional in any field with that line of thought and attitude.

These guys just want a job that is better than the crap they are dealing with at home, so give them a break.

Also, all the absolute crap about , if you are offered a job don't bother taking it, the only guys that say they turned the job down were the ones that didn't really get offered one in the first place and either didn't get offered an interview after the paper sieve or failed one of the interviews.

You wanabees should go all out for this cadetsip, just pray that if you are successful you never have to spend a lot of time on the same flight deck as some of the dorks that have been on this thread.

Mr Fusion

30th Apr 2011, 23:15

Attended one in HK a couple weeks back (never had an initial interview) and was turned down. Since feedback is a courtesy they won't extend, I'll draw my own conclusions, (IMO I played their game well.) PM me if you want details on the interview.

My background:
- USA Regional FO
- 3,000 Total Hours (2,500 in the CRJ7)
- Nuclear Engineering major (probably a dead give-away as to who I am ;) )

Our group talked at length about the housing allowance issue, as a couple of the guys had been offered a job in 2007 so they knew the differences. For me, it was just another example of how my services are worth less than the generation before me: Shareholders demand continually increasing profit margins, so the front-line workers get squeezed more and more. (Fortunately Cathay hasn't had to resort to Plan B: Business goes bad and shareholders want a quick buck, so management sells off all valuable assets, layoffs are plentiful, and the CEO takes a golden parachute as the company goes belly-up.)

Thank you Capitalism. :middlefinger:

(Where's the middle finger emoticon?)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, here's my take on the job offer:

- The negative comments related to this job are (understandably) posted by people who have a better job now, whether it be with Cathay or someone else. Good for them. But keep in mind you don't have their job: Criticism is easy to dish out when everything's good with numero uno.

- Do some research yourself on what HK$10,000 per month will get you in Hong Kong. Prices vary by location. Keep in mind though websites do a great job of making slums look attractive, and that real estate companies cheat on measuring square footage (i.e. including exterior walls, balconies, etc.) Floor plans also tend to maximize the amount of useless space available.

- Second officer is not a flying position. It's like an internship in a law office: Pay your dues and someday you may get to do the job you signed up for. If you're looking for respect out of your job, ("respect"... HA! Didn't that die out with Polio..?) or if you derive some sort of sick pleasure out of flying airplanes, (It's a job, not a way of life. I almost laughed at the final interview when the HR rep said "okay, so let's say you take the job, and yeah it'll be fun and exciting for the first year or two..." FIRST YEAR OR TWO?!? Try the first half-hour into my first ID..) this job may not be for you.

- This isn't a "stepping stone" job. If you want to fly somewhere else someday, skip the middle man.

- Last but IMO the most important factor: Family. Got a girlfriend/boyfriend? Plan on a quick marriage or separation, because Hong Kong won't sponsor the unmarried woman/man you're currently sleeping with. Want to start a family? Make sure they fit in your home: Literally. Want them to attend school in Hong Kong? Cathay will foot 90% of the tuition, but keep in mind there aren't enough English schools in the territory to keep up with demand, and waiting lists are hundreds long. Want your kids to grow up without pollution-induced asthma? Make sure you've got room in the budget for good air filters in your home. I wouldn't take them outside for long periods of time either (but that's just me.)

So there it is. If you pass the interview, and none of the above applies to you, take the job. If the low housing allowance is the ONLY factor in your decision, take the job. If (for some reason) they actually raise it again, and you don't get that raise, and there's better opportunities out there, tell them to f*** themselves and find a new job.

404 Titan

1st May 2011, 00:12

The Rents

I wrote this on the 1st March in a response to a post by you:

Yeh, we have heard about it. Looking at your posts (Grand total of 2 and first registered Feb 2011) you seem to know more than any cadet should know. You even know more than pilots already here know. I would guess you are probably management trying to talk up the Icad scheme.

My opinion hasn’t changed.:yuk:

Captain Dart

1st May 2011, 02:18

He's probably a school kid, management stooge or wind-up merchant. If he isn't, the 'value of the goods' that this particular market is dictating is poor indeed.

'Market forces dictate' that current crew, who have worked damned hard to get here will do all they can to discourage starry-eyed wannabes with SJS who are prepared to do the same job for less. The race to the bottom has gone on long enough. The 'dorks' and others that he will be undercutting will not only be captains, but first and second officers.

If he comes up to scratch during selection and grading (and judging by the spelling, grammar and attention to detail in his post a big 'if'), I and my fellow 'dorks' (with whom he will be sharing a cockpit for up to fifteen hours a time so he'll have to suck it up) had better hear lots of enthusiasm about those CX butties and what a great deal he is on just for eating them, not to mention the 'quality flying time' he is going to get :rolleyes:.

There are some very good people on this thread who are doing their best to 'tell it how it is'.

Em773ER

1st May 2011, 04:14

We aren't saying don't join, we are saying don't join until the contract is equal to what the guys are already getting

how long would you assume it would take for something like that to happen?, judging by the 27 no shows in SFO and deferred cadet courses in ADL, maybe just soon enough they will offer better contract.

ChinaBeached

1st May 2011, 07:09

Everybody everywhere is getting screwed? Nah.... Only the likes of weasels like yourself agreeing to it. It's called "consensual".

So "Rents" guys like me who turned it down are failures, eh? I flew my ar$e off in the outback & top end of Oz for 4500+ hrs flying approaches & in conditions that the pathetic likes of you can only study about in the hope of blabbering your way through an interview. I studied harder than the likes of you in your fictitious world could ever appreciate, without a classroom teacher or mentor for 2 reasons: a) my job & life depended on me knowing what I was doing & how to implement the systems knowledge, met, aerodynamics, rules, etc, and b) because that "used to be" the min standards required for CX.

Me & the others like me who PASSSED the CX interview to a FAR, FAR higher standard over 3 years ago do feel let down. It's CX's board game & they make the rules as they see fit. So be it - that's life. But when the self-satisfying naive & soul-for-sale children like you defend the lowering of a once great airline AND call into question / deny all what we did to earn the right to even strive for a CX job then you're going to get the kind of response you deserve.

You'll be the same tough guy on this forum kissing tail in the cockpit to the same people your ignorance slanders here. By your definition if a beer costs all others $5 you're happy to pay $7 because the landlord sees you as a SUCKER & stupid enough to line his pockets as such. Market forces mate!!!??? Or just a SUCKER and naive child being screwed over & taken advantage of as such?!

Market forces? Record profits equates to being offered & receiving LESS (dramatically less!) remuneration?

Market forces? Management receive pay increases of up to 68% over the same period (GMO / DFO??) over the same period pilots received NOTHING? Not to mention the massive bonuses despite their decisions costing CX millions (eg fuel hedging & price fixing). I'd like to see a pilot deliberately & knowingly breaking the law & being REWARDED for it.

Market forces? Has pilot remuneration EVER increased since say 1990 or has barely, if at all kept up with CPI influences? Or has it shown a steady decline?

In your eyes myself & the others who turned down this slap in the face are failures for not racing to bend over in the prison shower to pick up the gold-laced bar of soap....

Yeah "Rents", you're a genius. You know your stuff.

Voiceofreason

1st May 2011, 08:02

If nobody accepted these crap conditions, CX would be forced to improve the contract.

In theory, yes. In practice, just never going to happen.

As I've tried explaining on this and other threads - it's a decent package when compared to others out there. That's the comparison new joiners will make, not with what it used to be (had they had the hours and joined on expat terms).

Simply put, for aspiring pilots out there with limited hours, facing the choice of going the regional/GA route (whilst paying for your own training) just makes no sense when someone like CX is going to do the whole thing for you and pay you more than you would earn at said regional.

Some will stay away because of what they've heard, or they have a longer-term picture and want to stay at home, but many more will come. For the training, the money, the SJS and, yes, even for the chance to "experience" HK.

FL999

1st May 2011, 09:39

The likes of Dan Buster and 404 Titan are only trying to help and insulting them only shows a closed mind and if I was in their place would also not want to have you in the cockpit with me.

The package atractiveness is realtive though. Some dont have the means to pay for a ME-CPL-IR & Frozen ATPL and eve if they did they wouldnt be saving HKD 6 million over 5 years working for regionals in the US or bush flying in Africa. Loan repayments in countries where some of the applicants come from equals and sometimes out-weighs a salary deemed 'good' in said country.

I do agree that people who have the opportunity to fly locally at minimal cost and train part time and build hours should do so. Especially those who have no eurpoean residency restrictions and what not. Some just dont have tha luxury and have to go abroad to do ther training and that can become real expensive real quick when you start applying exchange rates and Living costs away from home.

Where Cathay really get you by the balls is by bonding you for 6 years to sit in a jump seat effectively ensuring that you cannot leave without the risk of throwing your career down the drain. I would presonally prefer bush flying Barons in Africa rather than eating sandwiches aboard an A340. To me that is THE deal breaker. I want to fly, thats why I want to become a pilot. The fact that Cathay is holding interviews every single month in 2-3 places shows that they are finding it hard to lure enough people and that alone should be considered a warning sign.

Its a shame since I believe its the people who have the common sense to refuse the offer or to question the conditions who Cathay should be hiring.

G_Orwell

1st May 2011, 10:51

FL999, I think depicts the main fear of potential cadets! Time to upgrade... not the money.
For experienced candidates that's a big off!

FL999

1st May 2011, 11:23

Indeed G Orwell, If you actually had acquired some significant experience after the 6 years I think some would accept it and tighten their belts for a couple of years before leaving and Cathay would probably have to reconsider their conditions in order to keep their pilots from doing so. Their P2X thing is the perfect way for them to prevent this.

The eternity you have to spend in the Jump Seat almost singlehandedly makes the current deal a very bad one. Then come the facts that you would help in reducing T&Cs for everyone already there and live in a shoebox eating instant noodles every day and breathing proper oxygen only during layovers.

ChinaBeached

1st May 2011, 17:17

It is not the time as SO. Those of us who did interview for the job "back then" have the hours to back it all up if need be. When I interviewed we were well aware of potential SO time. Look at past and present QF or ANZ SO time.... QF SO's are expecting 3-5 years and ANZ guys have done > 7 years not long ago. Have even heard of 11 years. (Not sure how true).

Time as SO on a P2X rating, the iCadet lack of experience, the bond (sorry! "forgivable loan") and the inability of those iCadets to hence leave until at very least 500 - 1000 hrs on [a] type, as well as the required "total time" of most airlines min entry levels leaves you in chains for far longer than 6 years. Management know it, they literally bank on it, but these kids choose not to see it. :ugh:

Plain & simple it's the package. I have done the maths in every possible way, including offshore accounts, shelf companies, etc to make it work. I wanted CX and tried to find a way. The cold hard facts are that I WILL NOT be able to comfortably retire. The pilots and crew cannot trust management to honour a contract. To own my own property is not unachievable but a very distant goal: up to 15-20 years of strict (very strict) saving because initially as SO I won't be able to. Add any possibility of wife, kids, education, associated costs....? No. It can't be done on this salary in HK & the costs of living.

It's never been the seat I sit in or the bars on the shoulders to parade about the mirror in. It's about a CAREER that leaves me able to show a responsibility to a hopeful family & eventual retirement. This package CANNOT offer that.

There is no such thing as a free meal, unless you're in CX management receiving the MASSIVE bonuses as a result of this C-scale. Some of you claim it's easy to sit back as an employed pilot & judge. Yeah.... As Samuel Goldwyn said, "The harder I work the luckier I get."

Hakeem

2nd May 2011, 10:30

Hello all...

I have been trying to update my application for current seconf officer program. But this is the response I'm getting for past one week.

"The online application system is currently unavailable, please update your application information later.

If you need further assistance, please contact our eService Centre at +852 2747 2200 or send an email to [email protected]. (1099)"

Any one can help me out in this please???

I emailed them no response.

I called them in that no as well but it is connecting me to the ticket booking office an not to the HR dept....

G_Orwell

2nd May 2011, 12:42

E-service center it's IT support.

Cathay Pacific - Contact Us : eService Centre (http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_HK/contactus/esvc)

Hakeem

2nd May 2011, 13:37

Thanks mate..

FL999

3rd May 2011, 05:12

I understand ChinaBeached. What Im trying to say is that even if some would accept the financial deal albeit having been warned on numerous occasions of the downsides, the fact that you'd have to sit in a jump seat for the next 6 years should (In Theory) be the deal breaker because honestly, its not worth the sacrifice.

I do see a couple of changes on the CX website though. Very interesting.

HKD 45K Basic salary
15% Pension contribution
Schooling allowance etc.

No mention of housing allowance though. Anyone care to comment on these changes? I always tend to take 'Up Tos' with a pinch of salt. What do you guys think?

Free wings

3rd May 2011, 16:11

According to the just updated Cathay website, they only hire SO at the moment. My question is if anyone knows how long would it take for a pilot joining CX as SO, having 2500TT full ATPL and 2000h 737NG, to upgrade to FO?? After a while as a FO, what's the chances of getting a Base Port in Europe??

Thanks!!

uspilot

3rd May 2011, 17:16

Was told from SO to FO around 6 yrs....for base you are looking around 15+ yrs if ever....The wesite also say min SO pay around HKG $45,000...thats not really true...One has to ask....why is CX trying to play with the numbers to make it look attractive....

sioux115

3rd May 2011, 19:54

The base salaries they are quoting are including the HKPA for housing (10000HKD SO). No mention of a forgivable loan. Very vague advertising.

Not to keep beating a dead horse but in 08', before record profits, and oil at $130USD a barrel. The monthly salary would have been around 59000HKD if you include the housing allowance and obviously would go up substantially from there. They can afford to bring back the old scheme but they don't want to pay another dime for a future pilot's accommodation.

I love this quote,"We regularly review our benefit package to ensure its competitiveness." Its been reviewed and pushed down into the gutter like everyone else. Its all about being market competitive. Who cares if your base is the third most expensive city in world!

ixg888

4th May 2011, 05:19

im so envious of you guys who are working @ cathay pacific and still un satisfied.. with the benefits u are getting.. I have little flying hours and regardless of what the company is going to offer im going to accept.

Because, cathay pacific is cathay pacific.

Up until now I haven't got a chance to be interviewed.

Captain Dart

4th May 2011, 09:49

After reading the preceding post, why are the words 'up until now' sending a shiver up my spine...?

diarmuid8

4th May 2011, 10:45

I just got called for their "Second Officer Initial Selection in London'' for June 2011.
I think I applied in January of this year.
I've a JAA fATPL with, 1035, 850 multi most of it on an 8,000KG turboprop.
Anyone else going?

SloppyJoe

4th May 2011, 12:18

diarmuid8:

Are you going for some free airline interview practice?

airburkina

4th May 2011, 13:25

Do CX have interviews at same locations, same time every year? In that case they should be inviting for the European/North European st1 soon..(if lucky)

airburkina

4th May 2011, 13:28

Congratz! =)

Burger81

4th May 2011, 13:58

Does anybody have any information on the Advanced Programme that Cathay are currently interviewing for (CPL, ME/IR holder, Non TR). Is it the same poor T&C's and 6yr bond that appears to be getting offered to the Ab Initio Cadets? I have searched on here, but all the info i am finding relates to the Ab Initio programme.

Any information on the interview content and T&C's would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Burger81

ixg888

4th May 2011, 14:54

congrats buddy! not many get that chance!

Stallone

4th May 2011, 15:14

wow, they've revamped their recruitment site..

much more informative now

diarmuid8

4th May 2011, 15:20

@SloppyJoe,

I'm going because they asked me to, it's not far for me to travel to London and I've nothing else to do!

captain.weird

4th May 2011, 15:40

Yes.

I've a question, how much hours will a zero cadet (61w) fly? Can't find it on the site of FTA..

A340x

4th May 2011, 15:49

Hi Everyone!
From what I read within this forum, an SO can expect from 5-6 years before being upgraded to JFO. Since Cathay has put so many airplanes on order (90 firm orders as per their Websites' careers section), don't you think the transition could be sooner?

Thanks

captain.weird

4th May 2011, 16:00

I don't think so.
You think that, if they will get a lot aircrafts, they will need some F/O's on those planes.. True.. but they also need S/O's on those aircrafts.. so waiting time can exceed.. You got that?
If there will really be a shortage on the F/O seats, and the only option is to upgrade the S/O's, they will give the opportunity to the DESO's. They are 'just' for 18 months S/O and they have real flight time.
Don't forget this: a lot of aircrafts will leave the fleet.

Stallone

4th May 2011, 16:12

more of replacement rather than addition

take note

SMOC

4th May 2011, 16:30

61wk course expect to fly around 220-250hrs

solrac

4th May 2011, 17:14

just out of curiosity. Is the wait time for all bases 10+ years? does that go for fo's as well? That cant be right, especially will all the A/C's they have on order.

Any comments? thanx :ok:

uspilot

4th May 2011, 17:30

For love of god guys..don't you guys ever read....Most of these orders are replacement for older planes....:ugh:. Beside there are FOs who are waitting for base as we speak...if there was any open bases and no one take it, trust me they will hire DEFO to fill that gap...

captain.weird

4th May 2011, 18:04

Solrac, why do you want to go out of HKG? If you really want this, you have to consider to live in HKG. Just that.

Mr Fusion

4th May 2011, 18:18

Mr Fusion

4th May 2011, 18:27

just out of curiosity. Is the wait time for all bases 10+ years? does that go for fo's as well? That cant be right, especially will all the A/C's they have on order. :ok:

Any comments? thanx
10+ Years is just another made-up number. I was told in the interview in HKG a couple weeks ago that because things got too complicated with dealing with foreign governments (i.e. tax issues, etc?) they've put a freeze on allowing people to move outside Hong Kong. It may start up again someday, but when.. Your guess is as good as anyone's.

If you're seriously considering this position, consider it attached to a lifetime of living in Hong Kong. And then someday you might be pleasantly surprised...

... Or not. :p

Honkozzie

5th May 2011, 00:36

Guys,

just to clarify a couple of points for you;

most of the B747-400's are being phased out in favour of the B777.
Older A330/A340 in favour of the A350 and new A330's, all over the next decade.

so not much of a net change in fleet size overall, and certainly not enough to bring the promotion times down significantly. Still work on 4-5 years as an SO as absolute minimum, IMHO. That's 4 years WITHOUT a rating that's useable anywhere else! And on the C scale, that's gonna be tough, don't kid yourself- HKG will only get more expensive with the inflationary pressures in Asia and the relatively poor value of the HKG dollar!

Basings? A complete unknown at this point. If and when they make them available again, it will probably be in very small increments and then only to replace retirements, resignations, etc, as the whole process of onshoring into the various juristictions has caught the company completely on the back foot, hence the freeze. Put it this way, I have 18 year+ seniority, and I can't get a base anywhere, so don't keep your hopes up!

So, think carefully boys and girls...I'm not saying 'don't come' but if you have any better options, take 'em!

Honk.

ixg888

5th May 2011, 02:45

this is the only option I have got... LOL...

theCOMEDIAN

5th May 2011, 05:59

got through to stage 4 flight grading

Captain Dart

5th May 2011, 06:25

...and just when those joining now may be looking at upgrade to F/O, Hong Kong International Airport will become slot-limited. This means that the aircraft may get bigger, but not more numerous, and upgrades will be into 'dead men's shoes'.

Unless they set up another hub in some other country willing to let a Hong Kong airline do that :hmm:...

Stallone

5th May 2011, 07:07

they're using B777 as replacement for B747

how are planes getting bigger?

i don't see any A380 order

main_dog

5th May 2011, 08:48

Gentlemen, the fundamental reason bases even exist within CX is cost-saving: CX spends so much for its HKG-expat housing that basing people around the world becomes the much cheaper option. Basings are a hassle (immigration/taxation/rostering issues etc etc) but worthwhile in order to save on housing costs.

If you accept to join CX in HKG without proper (indexed) expat housing, you have removed the very reason that makes it cost-effective for CX to offer bases.

If you haven't even joined this (Hong Kong-based) airline yet and you're already dreaming of basings, good luck to you... there are hundreds of far more senior FOs and SOs (and Captains!) who have been in the company for years waiting for a base ahead of you. While the company would save plenty of money by basing them, they won't save much by putting you on a base, so guess what? They won't.

ixg888

5th May 2011, 17:34

anyone who can recall the 33 mathematics question for CX cadet exam?.. lets compile LOL maybe we all can ace the exam..

solrac

5th May 2011, 19:04

why is it wrong of me to ask how long a base outside of HK would take?

Is that not the purpose of the forums, to inquire on things we do not know about cx before accepting an offer. I now understand that it will take a decade at the minimum to get on a base in north america/europe. That will def. have a factor on my decision to get on with cx. I don't quite agree with this mentality that one should not look past at living in hk for the rest of your career. If cx is a means for you to be able to be part of a great career company and be able to live in your home base than for sure!! Why not stick it out in hk for 5 years or so. That would be great, and maybe that was the case before. However that does not seem to be the case now, and therefore im not interested...period. I'm sure most pilots before were planning on staying for as little time as they could in hk regardless of whatever housing allowance they got, assuming hk was not their home base of course.

Please try and understand that this is comming from someone who has time and would be doing the quick transition to SO. Also I say all of this in thinking that they will never bring back the deso or defo. They will always find a way to find cadets, they will lower their acceptace standards before they will increase TC'S. This is how airlines operate and I find through my experience that management can be very vindictive. Before they will show you that they are wrong they will lower whatever standards that can to prove their point. If they arent getting enough cadets now it is simply because they haven passed their standards. They will find a way, and lowering acceptance standards will be the first. Most of you will say, im wrong due to the fact that have added this HKPA which was a result of nobody accepting their offer, and maybe if this continues they will add another 10,000, and thats always better, but that will most likely be it , if that.

My advice would be to take the current offer if you are truly ok with living in hk for the rest of your career. The offer wont get much better.
It's actually an amazing opportunity IMHO if you're in your ealry 20's. Sure it might be tough making ends meet with the cost of living, and perhaps that is how you'll gain your life experience, and again IMO that's better than flying experience.
It will get better as you put your time in. As someone said on a previous post, you may even be surprised.
Hope for the best, but expect the worst!

my two cents anyways,

its a sad thing

Another question! are waiting times for fo basing the same on the freighter? or is all the same.

thanx again

uspilot

5th May 2011, 19:56

The wait is the same...All FO are now unified FO...they operate pax and cargo.

Cessna414CC

6th May 2011, 03:41

I have read conflicting reports, it is 55, 60 or 65? :confused:

Stallone

6th May 2011, 04:01

65, they raised it, which is why promotion is much slower now

Em773ER

6th May 2011, 06:02

After following this thread for over a year, to put it ALL together in one ball, this is what I consider to be the iCadet program. Please note in no way am I degrading or promoting this program, just a keen observer pointing out some facts.

You finish your training in ADL after the time of your course, 61 weeks for ab-initio, 30 weeks for advanced with more than 250hrs and a CPL, 12 weeks for transition with ATPLs + 1500hrs. During these times you will be getting an allowance of AUD$100 a week.

Children's Education Allowance
Officers with the rank of First Officer or higher and living in HK are paid a children's education allowance. This equates to 50% of education costs for children aged 3 -4 years. For children aged between 5 and 18 years attending a recognized International School in HK, Cathay will reimburse 75% of the rate for the International School, or 90% of the rate for ESF schools (Primary or Secondary, as appropriate) in HK, whichever rate is the higher.

Retirement/Provident Fund
Cathay Pacific contributes the equivalent of 15.5% of its officer's salary into the Provident Fund. Officers may also elect to transfer the benefit entitlements from previous employment to the Provident Fund.

Travel and Rebated Cargo Benefits
After the applicable qualifying period, concessional travel on Cathay Pacific and most other major arilines will be available to officers and their spouses. Officer's parents will also enjoy discounts of Cathay Pacific flights. In addition, employees are entitled to a bookable free return no-subload ticket of a Cathay Pacific flight each year. Rebated Cargo is a staff benefit offered for staff to ship cargo at a discounted freight charge.

Loss of Licence Insurance
Cathay Pacific insures the Officer's flying licence to a maximum of 24 months salary.

Death Benefit
Cathay Pacific insures for the death of an officer equivalent to the sum of 60 months' salary.

Medical and Dental Benefits
The medical scheme covers consultations, medication, surgery and hospitalisation charges at a company appointed panel of doctors and at recommended hospitals. The dental plan is an optional benefit which provides access to comprehensive dental care in HK. You may select from a choice of three dental clinics and the specific treatments and procedures that are covered under the plan. Such benefits may also be extended to your spouse and dependants.

Travel Insurance
This optional benefit pays for loss of cash or personal belongings, the cancellation of a pre-paid holiday or unexpected medical treatment anywhere in the world for you, your spouse and dependants.

Critical Illness Insurance
This optional insurance will pay a cash benefit if you are diagnosed with a critical illness.

Income Protection Insurance
This optional insurance provides up to 50% of your salary if you become disabled and are unable to work for an extended period.

Housing Allowance
HKD$10,000

As an SO, you will be given a P2X rating on the aircraft you fly. The training that SOs are given for their P2X rating includes everything a new FO would receive, except they are not given base training (takeoff and landing training in the real aircraft), since they are only allowed to operate at altitudes of 10,000ft or above.

SOs log their P2X hours with this:
(flight time - 1.5 hours) divided by 2 for an ultra-long haul flight (4 crew), and (flight time - 1.5 hours) times two thirds for a three-crew flight.

SOs are on the B744, B773ER, A340 and A330
Airbus SOs do a cross crew qualification course which allows them to operate A330 and A340 after a year on the A340
B744 SOs can do a difference course to operate on both pax and freight versions

Not sure any more about “TEMP BASES for SOs”, anyone want to shed some info on that?

Upon upgrade to JFO you will start off by doing short haul sectors, basically doing duties of a FO for less pay.

Rough figures for a 1st year SO:

Income: $398148

Taxation

Tax free Threshold (Single):$108000
1st 40000 2%: $800
2nd 40000 7%: $2800
3rd 40000 12%: $4800
Remainder ($170148) 17%: $28925 (excluding Hourly Duty Pay, 13th month & Profit Share)
Total: $37325
Provisional Tax (First year only & depending when you start in Hong Kong): $41057
Gross tax: $78382 (19.7% of gross salary)
Net salary: $319766 or $26647 per month

Spending/month

Rent: $5000 (on top of $10,000 allowance which makes it $15,000)
Food: $4000
Home Phone: $500
Mobile: $120
Internet: $200
Electricity: $1000
Gas: $300
Water: $150
Public Transport: $1000
Miscellaneous: $3000
Total: $15270

To settle all the debates and arguments regarding this iCadet program, the reason why all the current CX pilots are so against this is because CX has a history for changing T&Cs when they see fit. To make sure you all understand, the A scalers back in the day used to get good pay, good packages (like one free annual first class ticket for each family member). Then new joiners were not offered these “very good” T&Cs, meanwhile the current ones didn’t complain but CX changed their T&Cs to the newer lower ones. I don’t need to be a 20 year CX pilot to see how things have changed.

These were all just rough figures and are in no way exact representations. Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, and add any more points that I may have missed.

That’s it folks there you have it :ok:. Think long and hard about all the factors before considering the iCadet program, especially those with spouses or kids or lots of flying experience.

SloppyJoe

6th May 2011, 06:24

I know it is possible to roughly find out what we at CX get paid by searching the internet but please could you not publicly post our income on the internet. If you remove the pay scales but leave the rest I think people wont mind too much. Everyone knows roughly what it is if they have done their research and if they get offered the job they can see it like you posted (almost correct) and make a slightly more informed decision.

Thanks.

ChinaBeached

6th May 2011, 09:53

Em777ER: I must say, well put together. I few numbers I believe a bit wayward on either side of the equation but by & large I believe closer to the penalty spot than ball park.

So, if you don't enjoy a night out on the town, a meal at a restaurant, holidays away from home for at least 10 years you may be able to afford a deposit on a property. Deposit only (30% of property value required). This is not considering inflation, etc. As per a previous post, maybe in 20-25 years you can own that same shoebox. Not counting the cost of kids or an unemployed spouse for perhaps 12 months.... That'll mean a bigger place for necessity, not as a luxury.

Now you've got to furnish that place. Around 3-4 months saving at least. Again, little to no room for much if at all else. Renovate? Keep multiplying!

All this on a NON-INDEXED "allowance", considering HK's 22% INCREASE in housing recently? This "opportunity" keeps getting better!! Hong Kong Rents Third Most Expensive in the World - Hong Kong - WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/hong-kong/2011/02/15/hong-kong-rents-third-most-expensive-in-world/)

A quiet night out in HK will set you back a min of $500 HKD. That x 4 is $2000 a month just to have a small percentage of what's called "quality of life". A meal at a half decent restaurant is not included.

Hope your Valentine enjoys Maccas Happy Meal vouchers & you learn to brew your own. This is the "opportunity" so many if you are desperate & blindly begging for.

slotsdown

6th May 2011, 14:30

I have been reading this forum with great interest and I have realised most CX pilots don't want us to join CX because of the poor T&C's.

Can you blame us (wannabes)? Who wouldn't say yes to an all expenses paid training to become a pilot? This is the cheapest way for some of us who can't afford the exorbitant price to becoming a pilot. Getting paid to eat sandwiches, hell, who cares, bottom line you get paid; even though it ain't enough in Hong Kong.

How many airlines take international students to be part of their cadet scheme? :confused: The fact is that some of you pessimists don't want us there to share the experience of discovering the world without us doing anything in the cockpit.

Do some of you dorks think that living in a scoff tin apartment and eating rice and pig intestines, is really an issue for us wannabes?

Some of us don't have the required finance to get the flying licenses and that's why we have opted for the CX cadetship regardless of the unfair conditions. 6 yrs waiting to become a First Officer, it's really not an issue for some of us who are young:*:ugh:

Fine, Hong Kong isn't the cheapest place on the planet and I don't argue with that but the fact that some of you are giving us advise about this bad cadet scheme is sickening.

If most of you dorks were in our shoes you would probably understand why we are joining this scheme.

Even if we wannabes got the licenses for flying after paying through our noses. Only God knows how long it will take us to get that first job.

FIRESYSOK

6th May 2011, 19:01

Hospital corners, no excuses. I want to bounce a quarter off that top sheet too.

captain.weird

6th May 2011, 19:23

Hi there boy I'm quoting and giving some reactions to you which you really have to nail in your brains!!

I have been reading this forum with great interest and I have realised most CX pilots don't want us to join CX because of the poor T&C's.

Can you blame us (wannabes)? Who wouldn't say yes to an all expenses paid training to become a pilot? This is the cheapest way for some of us who can't afford the exorbitant price to becoming a pilot. Getting paid to eat sandwiches, hell, who cares, bottom line you get paid; even though it ain't enough in Hong Kong.Listen you nazi pilot, okay this is maybe the cheapest way to become an airline pilot, but this hasn't really to be the reason to enroll this CPP! You have to be motivated, so motivated that you save every cent of your money for flight training! Guys like you which say that only the main reason is that the flight training is for 'free' make me sick of it! If you really want to be a member of the group, you have to be motivated!

How many airlines take international students to be part of their cadet scheme? :confused: The fact is that some of you pessimists don't want us there to share the experience of discovering the world without us doing anything in the cockpit.

Do some of you dorks think that living in a scoff tin apartment and eating rice and pig intestines, is really an issue for us wannabes?Listen 'big' boy, these 'dorks' are professionals, and if you look on the left-top of this site, you read professional pilot rumours network, so these 'dorks' which says that the T&C's are like hell, can be true, but it can't also. Because the most things here on this site are rumours! And if you really do some (good) research you'll see the real benefits package and compare it with the T&C's which the 'dorks' are talking about, and then conclude if it is bull**** or not. I've done a lot of research, and these 'dorks' gave the right answers. But if you can live under these T&C's it is okay for you. And just learn this 'big' boy, these 'dorks' are captains with a lot of hours on the big jets, if you see these 'dorks' on the metro station, on your own flight to your vacation, or god knows where, you will drool!! You will lick their arse!! Don't call them 'dorks' because these are the people from which you really can learn something from!!

Some of us don't have the required finance to get the flying licenses and that's why we have opted for the CX cadetship regardless of the unfair conditions. 6 yrs waiting to become a First Officer, it's really not an issue for some of us who are young:*:ugh:
I'll say to you dearest, what do you want to do on the same seat for 6 years?? The first year 1 to 2 years are great! Listen, this is what I also hear from the real cadets in Adelaide and a few who are already a S/O on the 747, it is and it will be really boring after the 2 years, you think sitting back behind is fun? What did you want to do? Your pants off and suckin' your own d*ck? Come on dude, be an adult and show some professionality!!

Fine, Hong Kong isn't the cheapest place on the planet and I don't argue with that but the fact that some of you are giving us advise about this bad cadet scheme is sickening.

If most of you dorks were in our shoes you would probably understand why we are joining this scheme.

Even if we wannabes got the licenses for flying after paying through our noses. Only God knows how long it will take us to get that first job.

The dork here on the location where you are (planet) is you.

Listen, to enroll this CPP you really have to be highly motivated. That is the main factor. If you are highly motivated, you will do your research, learn that booklet your arse off and do everything for CX!

No dearest, you are not motivated to be an airline pilot, you are motivated for FREE training you 'big' boy..:}

I hope God will forgive me for my unprofessionally words in this post, but this one really frustrated me..

solrac

6th May 2011, 21:29

Captain Weird,

What do you give a s$%t about what he does. Seems you took this dork accusation a little to close to heart. Either it is true or you just need to get a life. The guy is 17 years old. This opportunity for a 17 year old is great. He will be 23 by the time he's FO and even if it takes him 20 years to get on the left seat he will be 43! come on now, he will have made a good life for himself. If he gets through interviews that will have been enough and cx will see him as being motivated. I don't now how you equate his unwillingness to take the long route with lack of motivation. It's an opportunity!
You better get used to the fact that CX has decided to go through this route of excepting young guys! deal with it and maybe show them a few things.
Im sure it's not the first time someone called you a dork. I promise you it wont be the last either
It's a forum dont take it so personally.

captain.weird

6th May 2011, 21:37

Solrac, I really don't now how you interpretate my post but I will explain some things..

That this is a huge opportunity for young guys, yes, we know. It is not bad, I don't blame him. But what he posts here is not really professionally, not? Calling captain dorks, is that wat you do? Do you find that ok?
I didn't like his statements to call the people from who we can learn from 'dorks'.. and I hope you won't call them dorks too.
I don't say to him that he must not apply at the scheme, if he wants this, he can give it a try, but yelling that this is a 'free' opportunity is not the best motivation to enroll this CPP..

And calling me a dork? C'me on, don't be stupid.. Don't take it personally, right:hmm:..

ap_797

6th May 2011, 22:07

:S the arguing is never going to end!

I have a quick question, with respect to flying in Flight sim, which of the default aircraft most closely represent the flying characteristics of the grob? Cessna, mooney etc?

Thanks!

Roxy_Chick_1989

7th May 2011, 01:46

captain.weird and all the other 'dorks'

Please do not for a second think that the narrow-minded and childish perspectives of slotsdown are representive of the viewpoints of ALL wannabes. :yuk:

G_Orwell

7th May 2011, 03:33

Roxy_Chick_1989
No need to apologise or feel responsible, in any way ,for another user.
Despite the tendency in this forum to stereotype either side (wanabees-current pilots), WE are responsible for OUR OWN posts!

Em773ER

8th May 2011, 03:15

You're all dillusional and have no interest in learning anything or doing anything for Cx.

You ill informed arrogant :mad:. Its ok to be an anti-cadet scheme person, but to call those who consider cadetships as an "option", delusional (check your spelling as well) truly shows your lack of a professional demeanour. You're wrong that wannabes wanting to do the cpp are not interested in doing anything for CX.... because as I see it, they would be doing CX a BIG financial favour, the T&Cs clearly show that.

None of you spoilt little selfish snorts know what it's like working three jobs coz you've got a young family to feed, spent 100g on your training and working in GA pays you less than any possible unskilled form of labor in the country.

My educated guess is that you are some bitter GA driver who can't catch a break. How do you expect a 17 year old kid in a 3rd world country with poor parents to fund flight training? and on top of that get the so called "GA dream job" you are so proud of?... I am not a "do the iCad coz its free training" wannabe, but YOUR delusional assumption that EVERY cadet wannabe has the ability/opportunity to self fund is ridiculous.

If you feel so strongly about this and before assuming that the cpp is all wannabes want, why don't YOU give every wannabe a 100g towards flight training :ugh:.. I most certainly would gladly forget about the CX CPP (and the hope of better T&Cs) and slog it out in GA to gain the priceless experience iCads never get. So not all of us are delusional and lack the desire to learn in this industry, we just lack options.

Just out of curiosity... to all the current expat/local CX pilots out there If CX offered the international cpp with B scale T&Cs how many of you would have done it instead of the GA way?, or even A-scale T&Cs.

carpet weaver

8th May 2011, 05:21

Can anyone please give me some insight on the stage 3 medical? What kind of test's will they do and so on....

thanks in advance

mugzy

8th May 2011, 06:33

You're wrong that wannabes wanting to do the cpp are not interested in doing anything for CX.... because as I see it, they would be doing CX a BIG financial favour, the T&Cs clearly show that.

That's just a hateful lie. If you have done the research and have applied for the cadetship program then you're in no position to whine about the T&Cs. No offense but this attitude and lack of maturity is not going to get you very far in this industry.

Em773ER

8th May 2011, 08:39

Fair enough blacklabel, I actually agree with you now that I understand what you meant (especially the jet* cadet program).

That's just a hateful lie. If you have done the research and have applied for the cadetship program then you're in no position to whine about the T&Cs. No offense but this attitude and lack of maturity is not going to get you very far in this industry.

Who said anyone is whining?!?! How is that a hateful lie?. So what if I applied? An application is just a bunch of info on a paper. Those who are not in the position to whine are current CX pilots who joined via the cadetship, that were warned... why don't you worry about your own maturity before insulting someone based on a misinterpretation...

TopTup

8th May 2011, 12:27

The over-riding trend here is money: who can make the most out of starry-eyed cadets thinking they're getting a free and fast tracked ride onto a pretty jet.

I am appalled at the level of "it's too hard" to go via a traditional route of working to earn for flight training, let alone the mere mention of actually doing what's been referred to as "hard yards" in GA for a few thousand hours where the real learning comes from. Generation Y I think it's called.

Cathay used to be a great airline: a standard setter. Now it is just another airline where safety is nothing more than a sales pitch. It's all about money and nothing else. They'll use and abuse the dreams of wannabes to make that money: the iCadet scheme.

I feel sorry for these kids being taken advantage of AND the utter naivety of the bigger long term picture.

Such a shame that Cathay's name is being drawn into conversations with the likes of AirAsia, Jetstar and other low cost airlines. What was at the pinnacle is now eagerly racing to join the cheap and nasty due to nothing but greed and the acceptance of it.

Whilst I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears, here's a thread of us with more laps around this rock than many cadets have had hot meals think:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/450815-use-low-time-pilots-slammed.html

You kids are only thinking short term, not long. Em773ER has written a good breakdown on some costs but there is very little if at all allowance for unforeseen costs or as mentioned somewhere about quality of life. If "slotsdown" is the kind of applicant drawn to CX (and he/she obviously is) then CX is dead as the airline it once was.

q400driver

8th May 2011, 20:53

A few questions if anyone can shed some light:

1.) On top of regular salary, what are the per diems, hourly flight pay, overnight pay, and 13th month salary??

2.) New hires on the cadet/SO, what routes are they mainly flying??

3.) If one was to enter the 12-week transition training, does that still involve training on a single engine piston aircraft??

4.) Can anyone provide housing links in HKG??

thx :hmm:

firewings

8th May 2011, 23:05

Hello folks,

I am new to this forum, and i am interested in the CX Cadet pilot program.
Can any one please relist (if it has been done before) how does the complete process go about and how does one prepare for the interview(s)

Thanks

Happy Landings and Blue Skies

Em773ER

9th May 2011, 04:08

wowpeter.com » Blog Archive » Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Program! [Updated with International Applicant Timeline / Info] (http://www.wowpeter.com/?p=75) <<< that link has pretty much most of the info you need.

there is 135 pages worth of info on this forum. the earlier pages describe the interview process, and the latter describe what life would be like in HK with the T&Cs CX are offering (which I recommend you read through before accepting the offer, should you make it that far). Do a lot of research!!

Jay_solo

9th May 2011, 10:31

When they call you for the first interview stage, do the notify you via email or via telephone call?

orangeboy

9th May 2011, 11:17

Jay, normally they will email you.

firewings, there are 4 stages you have pass.

Stages 1-3 consists of:
- technical and HR interviews
- personality tests
- hand eye coordination tests
- reasoning tests
- job knowledge test
- group assessment
- maths test
- english test
- medical

Stage 4 is flight grading in adelaide.

As for tips on studying
- read this entire thread! There is alot of useful info about all stages of the selection process. You will have to weed through alot of jibberish aswell, but well worth the effort.
- study up on HK, Cathay and yourself
- read as much as you can about flying and aviation in general
- get flying if you aren't already do so!

Goodluck.:ok:

carpet weaver

9th May 2011, 18:52

Can anyone tell me how the medical goes?

crwjerk

9th May 2011, 20:41

Mine went very well, thanks.

Stallone

10th May 2011, 02:23

Mine went very well, thanks.

:):):):):):):):)

Burger81

10th May 2011, 09:54

Hi all,

I have read a lot of info and peoples views on the Cadet program here for the ab initio. Does anyone have useful information or views on the advanced cadet program that CX are currently offering?

thanks

Burger81

Em773ER

10th May 2011, 12:02

Burger81. Advanced Entry Programme – a 30-week programme for applicants who possess an ICAO CPL and have in excess of 250 hours flight time in specified categories.

views?.. well someone who has been able to self fund to those qualifications should not sell their soul, rather try to find a job in GA or instructing (provided they can get instructor rating). This cadetship is really best suited for ab-initio kids. IHMO CX could really get the "number of desired applicants" they want if they were to offer the proper T&Cs for each course. E.g. ...: the ab-initio entry cadets only get the 10k/mnth housing (because cx paid for their training), advanced course entry cadets get 15/mnth housing (since cx didnt pay for their cpl), transition course entry cadets get 20k/mnth housing (since cx are only providing transition training). any thoughts on something like that happening?

and just a quick question:
or applicants with an ICAO ATPL or CPL with passes in all ATPL subjects and have in excess of 1500 hours total flight time.

can anyone explain to me how it is possible to have passes in all ATPL subjects and have 1500 but not have a full ATPL? correct me if i'm wrong but don't pilots get given their full ATPLs when they have the 1500 hours after completing their ATPL exams?... or is it just CASA that do this?

Cheers!

flyinryan76

10th May 2011, 13:21

The FAA doesn't give you your ATPL after passing the written exam. In other words, there is a seperate flight test that you must pass! Thus, it is possible to have passes in ATPL written exams, have 1500 hours, but no ATPL.

Hope that helps!

diarmuid8

10th May 2011, 13:39

Also, the 1500 have to be made with certain requirements, for example, if you have 2000hrs on a ME piston with passes in all ATPL subjects you're not eligible for a full ATPL because you have not met the specific hours requirements outlined in the link below.http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_lts_LASORS2010_Section%20G.pdf

n.dave

10th May 2011, 14:26

Em777ER,

1500hrs ATPL.
I think you need the critical 500hrs of multi-crew time to 'unfrozen' ATPL

Em773ER

10th May 2011, 14:28

so does this mean that ab-initio cadet entry pilots will not have a proper ICAO ATPL until they are captains (PIC hours)?, they would have pretty much all the requirements except PIC, correct me if i'm wrong.

crwjerk

10th May 2011, 14:39

Your frozen ATPL will thaw out when you have attained 500 hours of Multi Crew time. After about one year of F/O flying. You submit all your logbooks, forms and test results to the "department" and you have an ATPL a week or so later.

Em773ER

10th May 2011, 15:03

understood, thanks everyone for your help! :ok:

773er

Ronny1992

10th May 2011, 22:34

Hey I forgot what location I chose for my interview is it possible to access that information?

uspilot

11th May 2011, 02:16

Em773ER

ab-initio entry cadets only get the 10k/mnth housing (because cx paid for their training), advanced course entry cadets get 15/mnth housing (since cx didnt pay for their cpl), transition course entry cadets get 20k/mnth housing (since cx are only providing transition training).

Your housing numbers are incorrect...unless they have change again....all Icadet SO will be getting $10,000 HGK a month:{...thats it:ugh:..I am not sure where you came up with the $15,000 and the $20,000.:=

Em773ER

11th May 2011, 05:10

re-read my post again, and again if you need to :ugh:

dtur5

11th May 2011, 06:25

Hi,
I sent in my application in Jan and now the application page for the cadet programme isn't taking any more applications. Does that mean I didn't make it to stage 1?

airburkina

11th May 2011, 08:26

I don´t think so.

Your app. is keeped in their data-base and when they reqruit, they look through their "holding-pool", and if they find you interesting you will get an invitation.

Most ppl who has been to interviews, including my self, waited 5-10 months before getting invited. Though I have not heard of anyone getting an invite earlier then 5 months, or after 10. But who knows? I think your app stays with them for 24 months.

Hope you get a chance! Good luck! :ok:

slotsdown

11th May 2011, 10:43

Firstly, I'm very motivated and enthusiastic about flying. I f I wasn't I wouldn't have bothered to write my opinion on what I view as information which I feel is making us wannabes not want to be part of this dream. Secondly, you must realise that some of us (wannabes) have been glued to our computer screens trying to get sponsorship for our training. Cathay Pacific has given us a great opportunity in fact a fantastic prospect of being pilots at a young age.

Some of us excelled in our schooling because all we thought about was FLYING!! That's motivation for you!! It (flying) motivated us to be top of our grades.

I'm not shooting down peoples FACTUAL comments, but I find it very perplexing that some people just place negative comments about this scheme because of some vendetta. Some of us are looking at the BIG PICTURE. By the time I'm in my late 20s I could be a First Officer. Some of us are willing to sacrifice our 6yrs or 8yrs as S.O.s because we LOVE flying and we know that our time on the left seat will come and it would have been worth it- Its called PASSION.

:*

KPHL

11th May 2011, 15:33

KPHL

12th May 2011, 05:12

I cant remember where I read it but during the stage 2 interview, are you required to write a one page paper reflecting the flight planning exercise or group presentation?

just curious, thanks

ronron_v439q

12th May 2011, 10:11

All,
I have been waiting for nearly 2 years for Cathay's reply for the Cadet Interview and got the reply from them that I was rejected. I do not think many have waited as long as I have....
So for those of you who are waiting for a few months, thats nothing! give them some time, and if you feel impatient, send them an email sometimes to follow up but do not pester them!
For those who did not make it (to Cathay) like myself, do not give up! For me, whether it is a Yes or No from Cathay, I have already make up my mind a few years back to save up (and get a bank loan), pay for all my training, flight instruct, work in GA etc. I do not have rich parents, am married and have family commitments to worry about. FYI, I am 35 yrs this year.
Everyone wants free training, but if that do not happen, do you still have the motivation to continue?. Save up, work hard for it, if flying is what you really want to do.
I have to go to the cheapest flight school i can find, stay in cheap places, help to clean up the school grounds (Hangars, rubbish bins etc) so that I can get some discount for my plane rentals etc.
I know of guys who became a Flight instructors when they are in their 40s. I even know of a guy who was 51 yrs old when he was furlough as an FO in regional low cost carrier, and he is working as a bus driver now to make a living!
To make the long story short, do not give up if you really want to fly and do not depend and wait for Cathay's reply ONLY! Nothing is free always, you have to sacrifice and work for it!!!

Another thing, my wife is working in Cathay as a Cabin Crew and have been in HK for 9 years now. When she first rented an apartment (9 years ago), she paid about HK$7000 for a 2 bed room in Tung Chung. Over the next few years, rent have steadily increase (to HK$8500). Just this year, the landloard wants to increase it to HK$11500. She had to move out to another apartment with cheaper rent. She got housing allowance but not much.
We went to different real estate agents in Tung Chung and the average rent per month is about HK$12000 or more! You will be very lucky to get anything less than HK$10000 in Tung Chung now. (even government flats cost) Real estate price have gone up, therefore the rise in rents (according to the estate agents)
Adding up food, groceries, transportation, entertainment etc. It will be much more! And even more if you have school-going age children.
So guys, what the other senior Cathay pilots are telling you about Cost of living in HK is true. You might be OK when you are 20yrs, with no kids, no wife. But think at LEAST 5 years ahead!

scottb12

12th May 2011, 21:07

I have an interview next month, can anybody tell me exactly what the 30 weeks of training consists of in the Cadet Advanced Entry program. I have a fATPL but only have 270 hours TT so do not qualify for the transition program. Any insight is much appreciated.

Cheers

TopTup

12th May 2011, 23:47

I am appalled and perhaps even disgusted at the standards and types of questions asked on this forum. There are hundreds if not thousands of pages of material about the CX recruitment process, as it was then, as it is now, pay scales, interview styles, questions and examples. And still you ask these questions. If you can't be bothered to let your "passion" guide you to read a few posts here on pprune or other journals then how can anyone expect you to passionately let alone professionally read the FCOMs, FCTM, SOP's, etc, etc??

To all those passionate kids, most of all "slotsdown": how many of your 17 years of experience of big business and corporate entities indicates that they EVER give ANYTHING for FREE? Go and ask you teacher about the age old saying (yes! Even older than 17 years!!) "There's no such thing as a free meal."

Your naivety and misguided / misunderstood "passion" is being abused for cheap labor to line the pockets of senior management. Nothing more nothing less.

Nothing can or will ever replace hard work and discipline. Most of you want the "easy way out" as you see it: "free training". You think you consider the long term but still despite all the evidence of financial breakdowns of living costs, let alone the possible future of wife and family or housing market increases in HK - LONG term - you only see a possibility of JFO after 6 years. You don't consider the next stages of your "life" that exist outside of a single bar on your shoulder attempting to charm the pants off a FA. Least of all do you consider the effects on the profession in general. Selfish and ignorant.

You will not retire comfortably. Your responsibility to your own self worth and needs of the future (20+ years) are irresponsible at best. You are pawn being abused and ridiculed by cut throat and greedy management.

When you have the runs on the board and the experience that I and most others here arguing against the sale of your souls have, then argue from and educated standing. Not from a mere "wannabe" or more like "gottabe-at-any-cost" naive kid.

Have you seen the other threads as evidence to CX management's take on a written and signed contract? The instructors in ADL? The SO and FO by-pass case? The 25 year housing in the CoS '08 terms? Basings? Rosters: FDTL's and Cmdr's Discretion? The 49ers?

These things directly affect YOU, but like a camel with it's head in the sand you don't care. No, there's no "app for that" hence you're lost, naive and ignorant.

TopTup

13th May 2011, 01:07

Once again you highlight my point by only thinking SHORT TERM.

Yes, it is a very sad indictment on the GA industry that a fast food employee with very little secondary education can and does make more than a new GA pilot. This is a short term problem. With more experience flying makes you more likely to be hired or promoted to bigger and better jobs. No it's not easy! But this is what this so-called passion is meant to being the driving force though such times. No?

The longer term result is that you are a better pilot, a better candidate and better future as a professional airman.

Now, as an example: how would you like it if your boss hired a kid to do you the same job as you for as much as 60% less pay than you get, and there are lines miles long out the door of people queuing up to cheapen what you do even more? The new applicants have little to no idea of what they are doing to the job as a whole, but they see a "job" and quick pay check that they didn't receive a day before. And your boss is laughing at them all the way to the bank while you are unemployed or forced to accept your new found "worth".

This is precisly what is happening here.

and there is more than work in life

My point again. When all the thrill of being an SO for disgustingly low terms and conditions wears thin, how are you going to afford the future of buying a house, supporting an unemployed wife and new born, car maintenance (if you have one), unexpected life's pitfalls that happens: guaranteed?!!

EM777ER has done well to outline very basic costs. However there is zero scope for quality of life or these unforeseen costs that occur in one's life: least of all the real & rising costs of property in HK.

Thousands of CX pilots have done it before this iCadet grab for money by management. It takes ball$ and integrity to not sell yourself short. It is damn hard. No one suggested it is easy. Look at just some of the things that I have mentioned regrading CX's treatment of "contracts" as well as recent history then the decision gets slightly easier. Have you considered this / these?? Today you sign this present offer and contract. Next month or year you see that eroded away to far less.... One's past actions are the best indicators of one's future behavior.

All of us with experience are telling you in no uncertain terms the truths about this iCadet scheme.

You asked what's the better option? Work and study harder than the guy next to you. Do it quietly and professionally. Share knowledge and experience. FORCE employers to hire you based on credentials, experience and talent. I guarantee you "the dream" will happen if this passion is honestly as strong as it is made out to be. This means allows you contribute to your profession, while the CX iCadet scheme makes you detract from it.

Hell, in many parts of Asia and Europe you can go from flying school to FO on A320 or 737NG!!! At worst perhaps an ATR!! The chances to become a better pilot, better airman and more skilled driver are there!! Do not sell yourself short for an airline offering no better if not worse money than Jetstar or AirAsia!! CX is not what you think it once was.

Digging a hole is a job. Frying French fries is a job. Cleaning toilets is a job. Flying a beautiful aircraft from C152 to Seneca to B1900 / Metro / King Air to 777 is a vocation. If you lose sight of that then the game is already over.

Good luck. I hope for our profession and your future you are able to make the right decision.

lost&found

13th May 2011, 02:26

some of us (wannabes) have been glued to our computer screens trying to get sponsorship for our training

why dont you go out and get a job, that is sponsorship and you EARN it! Sitting in front of your computer screen, dreaming, is only going to show your lack of commitment to flying. that is precious time you could have used gaining some sort of experience! dont tell me there isnt a Mcdonalds near your house or the local supermarket wont hire you... there are plenty of ways to earn a crust and pay for your own flying. Im sick of reading cr@p , like what you have written, about how hard or how it costs is to learn to fly. If you REALLY want to fly, PROVE IT!

By the time I'm in my late 20s I could be a First Officer.

That type of attitude is why you wont be an appreciated asset on a flight deck! Tell me exactly what real world experience have you got? You have sat at the back of a cockpit for the past 4 years, watched other people make decisions, tried to understand why they have made those decisions but have been in the position where there are 3 more senior people around you, so you dont make the wrong decision. in your flying career you wont have to make any life threating decisions, in a cockpit, until you are blessed with that unforseen catastrophie that may occur! the majority of CX pilots have had prior flying experience, before joing the company. they have always had to make decisions that will impact their flight, from day 1 they have had to decide whether it was safe to go flying or they have had to divert because of weather. situations that have ingrained techniques and a type of personality that will benefit them come a situation at on the flight deck of CX flight. you, as a 17year, have no life experience, but believe you are capable of making the same decions as someone who has flown a twin around the bush for a few thousand hours.

when **** hits the fan on flight simulator you can always restart... unfortunatley the real world doesnt work like that!

The negativity from current CX people is not just in relation to the lowering of conditions. its the lack of experience, the increased naivety from people, like yourself, who at 17years old think they deserve to be driving the big shiny jet! CX will always be there, get some experience and then come back. Get off the computer, get a job, book some flying lessons and get a life!

TopTup

13th May 2011, 02:32

Your decision, so be it. I'm sorry you see GA as too hard and detracting from aviation as a profession as a positive step.

You asked for my advice, but you don't want to hear it as you obviously already have your mind made up: like so many others here.

With the iCadet salary, how the hell are you going to pay to hire a Pitts for an hour or so?? Just food for thought, but falling in deaf ears again I'm afraid. (A quick google search: West London Aero Club - Aircraft Fleet and Rates (http://www.wlac.co.uk/aircraft_fleet.htm) shows $570.75 for the 1st hour dual as needed plus $2855 HKD per hour = $3425.75 HKD for your first hour, then $2855 HKD after than. 2 hrs in a Pitts equates to around 1/3 to 1/2 of ALL possible savings for a month based on EM777ER's calculations!) So, again, I doubt you truly appreciate least of all comprehend what you believe or blindly type here.

No future in GA? Wow... So the many thousands of pre iCadet pilots at CX who came though GA found it as a zero future enterprise?? Far from it. No, because you want it ALL NOW. You don't want to climb the ladder where each rung is earned. As I have repeated, you and so many others see the short term of the iCadet scheme. For you it's nothing more than a means to dodge GA "hard yards" as sipping coffee is of course easier. I've mentioned the severe detraction to the industry, but again, deaf ears.

OK, that's your decision and you have already convinced yourself that everyone with experience at CX or airlines in general as widebody SO's, FO's, Capt's, TRE/I's are wrong and you are right.

I assume (hope) English is your second language. Once upon a time (perhaps only 3 years ago) the written English as you have created would have had you cut from the application process immediately. You may have to write official reports or summaries for your job. "Text" language is not considered as "profesional" (and this is called a "professional" pilot's forum!) But again, this is now a suitable standard for CX applicants it seems.

This is not an attack on yourself, so please don't take it as such. Only a comment of what we all see but the iCadet applicants refuse to see, accept or consider.

You (iCadets) obviously do not want to hear the advice that you ask for. Your mind is naively made up and no amount of truth or common sense can convince you or the rest of the applicants differently. So please stop asking for what you don't want to hear, least of all asking the pathetic questions like "how many hours will I fly in ADL? How long till CX reply to my application? How many aircraft do CX have? What ILS will I fly? What's an ILS? Is the sim like a Mooney or PA28? No one at CX is answering my phone call (because it was a public holiday?)!!! I forgot which base I selected on my application to be interviewed at.... How soon can I get a basing outside of HK????"

It is utter madness, naive in the extreme and just plain unprofessional to be asking such questions that you should already know about a decision that will affect the rest of your life. Issues like these just highlight the utter naivety of your decisions, willingness and ignorance to blindly accept an offer nearly all those with experience tell you is COMPLETELY WRONG.

No, the future is far, very far from bright.

KPHL

13th May 2011, 03:45

I dont see what is wrong with this pay...

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/images/stories/airlines/pay_cathaypacific2008.gif

compared to a US Regional
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/images/stories/airlines/pay_pinnacle2011corrected.png

I'll take Cathay

TopTup

13th May 2011, 04:38

Toptup, you're an old extinct mamoth that belongs in a museum and you're not listenning to me.
I agree with your dislike for wannabee but you're at the other end of the **** stick really,

And there you have the future of CX!

Work on
a) your spelling;
b) your attitude;
c) your arrogance;
d) your motivation

before trying a pissing contest with the same TRE's you'de kiss ar$e to if you ever (I doubt it) step onto a flightdeck.

What a professional response from one without the most lowly of common professionalism to argue from an educated standpoint and unable to a listen to, least of all accept the advice and answers to questions you asked for!!

I don't dislike "wannabes". In fact I just mentored 2 kids into DEFO A320 jobs as their first commercial job from flying school. They had humility but for one attribute the likes you can never hope to posses. I just don't like the type you are and represent. With your complete and shameless lack of any form professionalism, you would be (if you ever make it!) well and truly at the end of mine or any other TRE/I's **** stick, as you so eloquently put it. And you'de be so pathetic as to say, "thank you" after the flight... almost begging to falate us "museum mammoths" who do exactly what you cream your pants over every night (for a hell of a lot more).

Grow up. Never before, until this iCadet / CPP was on offer at CX has such despicably poor levels of education and standards been on the Fragrant Harbour Wannabe's forum. Whilst the bar is pathetically low now, I hope not low enough to allow the likes of yourself to be deemed acceptable (yet) for CX. That is unless they lowered common English grammer levels and personality needs to spoilt illiterate brat level.

I am sadly happy that CX are getting precisly what they are paying for.

Chi Sin Gei Si

13th May 2011, 04:48

"And the Wannabe's come back with a great burst of energy, bringing them only 9 points behind the Old Farts! This is turning out to be a truely exciting and entertaining thread, people! Tit for tat all the way. We wait with anticipation to see what the next move is and by who. Will it be the old farts, with their self-proclaimed experience, correct spelling, long posts or will it be the Wannabes who answer next with their green, naiive, youthful intrepidness, but terrible composition, desperate to make their mark and get into the pro game? The old farts started with a commanding lead, but superior fitness of the Wannabes is starting to show. With fitness against them, and the new rules of the game, maybe its time for the old farts to consider throwing in the towel. Yet, it seems that they are able to hold their own somehow, relying on their knowledge and wisdom to get them through and keep the standards of the game high as we know it.

The irony is that the Old Farts team is made up of ex-wannabes. This looks like it is to be a battle to the end of time?"
http://i.hebimage.com/0511/4dccb4dc3292e.PNG (http://www.hebimage.com)

TopTup

13th May 2011, 05:30

Chi: very, very funny....Got to say I read it a few times and still laughing. Well done.

You're worse than an alcoholic wife bashing cab driver married to a portuguese caretaker that complains about current affairs.

Spoilt illiterate brat: just when I thought you couldn't embarrass yourself more you manage to enlighten us with such a well-worked xenophobic / racist outburst.

Plus my level of professionalism is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

"PROFESSIONAL Pilots Rumour Network"?? What did I miss?

Professionalism not an needed attribute for a pilot or one seeking entry via the CX iCadet program?

The **** stick you so proudly mentioned just spanked your sorry and pitiful self again. Keep going... perhaps you can draw the KKK, Hitler or some anti-Semitic slander into your next pre-pubescent outburst?

Won't argue anymore with you. Too demeaning. I have to go and rest for my flight soon in my shiny 777: the same type your ignorance will prevent you from ever handling.

Again, CX: welcome to your future. You get what you pay for.

KPHL

13th May 2011, 06:04

The bottom line is that you are going to have to accept that "almost" all the airlines are cutting back, not just cx (im sure you know that). The job isn't what it use to be, we know that. But the fact of the matter is that I will be getting paid more at Cathay than I would at home, flying a "heavy" (or baby sitting as you probably would put it), and getting exposed to the world. If you think that there are better opportunities else where please point me in the right direction, I am open to suggestions.

Im not a 0 time guy, I have 285 and a commercial license. Im not some guy looking for a way to get my ratings, im a commercial pilot, 285 hours of flight time, with a little over a 100 of that in a multi engine. I worked my butt off to get to where I am.

Option 1
I can continue flying GA, maybe get a job doing traffic watch, CFI, whatever. Build some time and just Maybe get hired at a regional (remember, the FAA has passed a new bill say that in order to get on with a part 121 carrier, the applicant needs ATP minimums, so 1500 hours and so on, this goes into affect next year). Spend about 7 to 8 years flying from the right seat before "maybe" i'll get a captain seat in an RJ (life is GREAT, 10 dollar pay raise!). Now im a rich captain at a regional, cool....next goal is to get on with a major airline (along with thousands of other pilots, good luck)

Option 2
Take the job at Cathay, pay my dues as a second officer and get on with my life.

You guys can post all day saying how terrible and how miserable life is but the fact of the matter is even if I dont accepts this offer, blacklabel doesn't accept this offer, or Tom, or Steven, Jerry, Sarah whoever dont accept, someone else will....thats just how things work...

You have done your duty as a "concerned" pilot and made this situation aware to potential cadets but your really beating a dead horse...let people make their decisions and live with them....

but dear god I hope Cathay doesn't hire people like this

You're worse than an alcoholic wife bashing cab driver married to a portuguese caretaker that complains about current affairs .

kmagyoyo

13th May 2011, 06:54

Im not a 0 time guy, I have 285 and a commercial license

Does it crack anyone else up when 200 hour pilots think their overqualified?

KPHL

13th May 2011, 07:00

Does it crack anyone else up when 200 hour pilots think their overqualified?

Did you read overqualified anywhere in what I wrote?

All im saying is that I am not an ab initio guy who just decided to be a pilot one day...

lost&found

13th May 2011, 07:14

All im saying is that I am not an ab initio guy who just decided to be a pilot one day...

no, you are saying that you dont want work hard in GA, building experienece before becoming an airline pilot. instead you are happy to drop your pants to jump into a big shiny jet. when you get board here, which at 21 years of age im sure the next best thing is just around the corner, where do you go...?

KPHL

13th May 2011, 11:26

no, you are saying that you dont want work hard in GA, building experienece before becoming an airline pilot. instead you are happy to drop your pants to jump into a big shiny jet. when you get board here, which at 21 years of age im sure the next best thing is just around the corner, where do you go...?

So your telling me that by flying in the pattern all day just to build time will make me a better Boeing 777 second officer?

AQIS Boigu

13th May 2011, 12:36

Quote:
no, you are saying that you dont want work hard in GA, building experienece before becoming an airline pilot. instead you are happy to drop your pants to jump into a big shiny jet. when you get board here, which at 21 years of age im sure the next best thing is just around the corner, where do you go...?
So your telling me that by flying in the pattern all day just to build time will make me a better Boeing 777 second officer?

KPHL,

No... but it will make you a better FO or Captain... all of you Gen Z 0 hour guys are pissing me off... how do you think 90% of CX's pilots got their flying hours? through hard work in GA, regionals or the military AND persistance, integrity and maturity...and a lot of you guys are lacking in the latter... get some and then come back to this forum...

AB

KPHL

13th May 2011, 13:09

KPHL,

No... but it will make you a better FO or Captain...

Please enlighten me as to how building flight time in a Cessna 172 is going to make me a better Captain or First Officer in a Boeing 777...

If anything being a SO will make you a better Captain or First Officer... you have had several years of following your colleagues in the flight deck and learning from them....

Em773ER

13th May 2011, 13:48

Please enlighten me as to how building flight time in a Cessna 172 is going to make me a better Captain or First Officer in a Boeing 777...

stop being stubborn KPHL!!! :=... AQIS Boigu and lost&found are simply saying doing GA will make you a better FO and Cpt compared to being an FO and Cpt via SO without much experience. Even you should know that GA isn't just flying a 172 to build time. Things like bush flying, charter flying, SINGLE PILOT IFR TWIN TURBOPROP (now that will make one hell of a pilot!!!) are the GA these guys are referring to... you get the point now? :ugh:

If anything being a SO will make you a better Captain or First Officer... you have had several years of following your colleagues in the flight deck and learning from them....

Not entirely true. So tell me this, lets say hypothetically a student only watches their instructor do everything, and not doing it themselves, then comes time for them to do their GFPT... how do you think the student will go?... similar concept to an SO, (yes sims do help but no where near as much as REAL experience)

captain.weird

13th May 2011, 16:10

@Em773er: you already know that I like you, and I totally agree with your (long) post!!

Firstly you have to know the consequences, if you already know these, put yourself in that position (think it, not do it directly!), and would you like that? The answer is personally and easy for A, but very hard for B.

Having the motivation is not the biggest problem if I read the posts of the most of the aspiring CX pilots here, it is really the attitude wat TopTup is saying. I already said that the aspiring pilots here really have to respect the pilots here which are giving advice. Criticism is not bad! It is just how you handle with the information.. Criticism is really given to help you out, but if you handle wrong with that information, shows that you aren't professional enough.. Oh yeah.. CX will get that out of you..

GTC58

13th May 2011, 16:58

KPHL

your disposable income living in Hong Kong under CX's new COS for ICadets will be less than working for a US regional, even considering a lower standard of living in HKG. In my opinion taking the ICadet job with CX will only work out financially if you get a base as soon as possible, which is very unlikely at the moment.

Also, reading some of the posts here referring to the program as a "stepping stone" or "getting a foot in the door" this is as good as it gets for you at CX. Improvements to your COS at CX will be highly unlikely. At the moment you just look at the positives, eg free flight training and the opportunity to sit in the right seat of a wide-body jet in a relatively short time period. However that will wear off soon, when you constantly get reminded that most of the guys you will fly with make twice as much money as you do, having the same rank, doing the same job. You might get even more unhappy when you see what kind of live-style they are able to live in DB, Central, Sai Kung etc and you have to live in a shoebox in Tung Chung, Mong Kog or Tsing Yi.

You might even have Children one day and want to send them to a boarding school to your home country like your colleagues do, however you find out that your education allowance only cover Hong Kong schools and not international schools.

You don't have enough disposable income to save for retirement, nor to buy real estate which would support a family comfortably.

Why do you think so many Hong Kong locals move away to countries like Canada and the US? Because they can live at a higher standard in those countries.

Just some food for thought.

KPHL

13th May 2011, 17:26

when you constantly get reminded that most of the guys you will fly with make twice as much money as you do, having the same rank, doing the same job. You might get even more unhappy when you see what kind of live-style they are able to live in DB, Central, Sai Kung etc and you have to live in a shoebox in Tung Chung, Mong Kog or Tsing Yi.To me this only seems to be a short term problem, I understand that the SO pay isnt what it use to be but what about the pay 10 years from now? Are you saying that the pay for a 10 year Cathay (either your an fo or captain) is different if you were hired via cadet route or defo route?

Cpt. Underpants

13th May 2011, 18:14

Philly

Yes, it is. Cadets/LEP's earn significantly less than expats. To the tune of HKD1,000,000 + per year.

BASED DEFO's earn even less.

GTC58

13th May 2011, 19:13

KPHL

Yes, of course it is different. An ICadet First Officer earns around HKD700000 per year less than his peers on expatriate terms. As captain it is still around HKD500000 less per year.

JulianB

13th May 2011, 20:35

Your naivety and misguided / misunderstood "passion" is being abused for cheap labor to line the pockets of senior management. Nothing more nothing less.
Escuse me sir. Everywhere i hear about slaver-Companies, Everywhere!
People pay for working in Europe!All for building these goddamn 500hrs on type.
And GA?I know some desperate guys fresh licensed and indebted, but still at home with mama cos even towing banners has been prestigious.
And now even the CX Cadey program seems to be an artful financial operation for gaining over our heads.

What we suppose to do so?
Personally i have no money even for a PPL. Should i give up?

SloppyJoe

13th May 2011, 21:29

KPHL

Please enlighten me as to how building flight time in a Cessna 172 is going to make me a better Captain or First Officer in a Boeing 777...

If anything being a SO will make you a better Captain or First Officer... you have had several years of following your colleagues in the flight deck and learning from them...

To be honest this just shows how little you understand about aviation and what being a pilot for CX involves.

I am not saying guys who joined through the cadet scheme are bad pilots, far from it.

As an SO you sit there in the middle of the night watching a tv screen as waypoints go by on the green line. You mark down the time on a sheet of paper and once every hour do a fuel check. You watch the CN and FO type stuff into the FMS and chat about the approach, then the autopilot flies the plane to about 500 feet at which point they normally do a manual landing. Almost all pilots at CX have never had any serious problems with the aircraft and chances are you will never see anything out of the ordinary. In 3 years we have never even had to really consider diverting.

In GA you WILL have problems if you get 3000hrs doing it, the prior minimum requirements for DESO (some got in with lower but not many). You will probably have diversions, engine failures, unusual situations that you could not even have thought of. Most of this will happen with you in charge, you will have to make the decisions, you will have to evaluate your actions. This is why you are better prepared to be a CN with an airline as with an airline things usually run as planned and you may get into that left seat of an A340 having never had to make a difficult decision in you 12 year of flying.

KPHL

13th May 2011, 22:06

Dan Buster,

Can you show me the contract or break it down for me. Im sure its somewhere online.

SloppyJoe

13th May 2011, 22:34

Yes the complete contract is on the Cathay website for employees to view.

I can break it down for you.

An SO on the old contract with full expat allowances after 3 years would be earning almost the same as a year 1 Captain on these new terms with the token housing allowance. Think it is about 10-15% less. (basic salary and housing)

Up until the point of becoming a Captain, which may take you 15+ years, a year 3 SO (2 years or more with CX) on the old expat deal would be earning more than you, basic pay and housing, if you join on this new deal. So after working for CX for 15 years, if you are not yet a CN you would be getting less, if upgrades go out to 20 years which they may do, you will be earning less than a 3 year SO. This is after working for CX for 20 years.

This does not take into account the far better education assistance the expat package used to provide.

Trying to put it simply as you seem to have trouble getting your head around what people are trying to say.

orangeboy

13th May 2011, 22:38

good post EM77ER, well balanced and argued :ok: .....you're a great example of a prospective cadet, who isn't sitting around just waiting for something to happen, you have gone out and by the sound of things worked your arse off to pay for your lessons, respect.

One thing i believe you will get is a greater appreciation of each time u get up and fly because you know just how hard u had to work to get yourself up in the air. :) ....and i think this is part of the current pilot's concerns aswell, besides the housing and experience, is the appreciation factor.

JulianB

13th May 2011, 23:19

And what about going away from the company after made some experience as an F/O?(for example 2000-3000hrs on a 777, after 10yrs)

Em773ER

14th May 2011, 00:37

Thats tue CW, attitude is one of the biggest factors with wannabes, during flight grading you will most likely get criticised and how you deal with it reflects your profesionalism. Thanks orangeboy!

And what about going away from the company after made some experience as an F/O?(for example 2000-3000hrs on a 777, after 10yrs)

It all comes down to seniority. If you move to another airline you will start at the bottom ranks again, like Qantas you will have to be an SO for about 3-4 years again!!! no matter how many hours on type you have. Plus the assumption that another airline will take you just because you have experience, is a false one. A cpt with 4500hrs PIC on the 777 from UAE was rejected by qantas.... If you are going to do this cpp you have to be willing to
A. Live in HK!! (bases are least likely for newbie joiners)
B. Live 10 to 15 years before being "competitive" to apply for other airlines
C. Accept that as a Cpt on these terms you will earn as much as a year 3 SO on full expat terms! (big deal breaker)

I know what its like getting paid less than collegues who do the same thing, not a good thing!!! Perhaps you wannabes lack perspective!

JulianB

14th May 2011, 02:07

C. Accept that as a Cpt on these terms you will earn as much as a year 3 SO on full expat terms! (big deal breaker)
50-60K Less are really crazy!It's sounds really discriminating!
At this point it seems to be better getting a loan for training rather than this kind of exile in HK!
And i think 6 yrs without touching the commands could be frustrating, if you really like flying.
Only CX, Qantas and Qatar, as far as i know, Still got SO's. And that's senseless, in operative terms.
Today i knew 2 guys which refused the CX's offer, and initially i got astonished
, but now i can understand them. I wont apply too. And i hope other people will do the same. There could be great passion and love for flying, but i think dignity comes first.

It all comes down to seniority. If you move to another airline you will start at the bottom ranks again, like Qantas you will have to be an SO for about 3-4 years again!!! no matter how many hours on type you have. Plus the assumption that another airline will take you just because you have experience, is a false one. There are a lot of major or low coast companies that accept direct Entry TRated or not TRated FOs and CPTs. And the min requisites are not always so restrictive. So, yes the assumption can be false, but mostly not.

ChinaBeached

14th May 2011, 06:11

After all the dribble on this thread only one person seems to KNOW what the iCadetship is all about. Em777ER, you have really done your homework. And why may I ask? Because this guy/girl KNOWS what it's like to work hard to achieve the goals he or she has set. He (for argument's sake) knows the value of hard work and doesn't want to see a life affecting decision to be made on childish pipedreams that are irrelevant to the REAL WORLD and REAL CONDITIONS that you are willing to agree to - even though you other kids know NOTHING of the REAL LONG TERM FACTS you so ignorantly defend and yet still post the most idiotic questions here or statements about your future and options.

Yet still there are those of you out there astonished at the salary you'll receive after 10+ years, and even up to that as Capt under this package. How the hell do have the audacity to apply, let alone defend the decision you have made for this iCadet program? You have done NO lengthy assessments but for short term "free training", so you see it. How ignorant can some of you really be? Don't answer, the proof is in such posts from the likes of blacklabel & company. :ugh:

So, you think you can leave CX after 2-3000 hrs on a 777/744/330/340? So how did you in all your wisdom come up with this bright idea? How many hours will you ACTUALLY be legally able to log with a P2X rating for perhaps 5-6 years? Then as JFO/FO, perhaps 800 hrs a year.... And then what? Have you looked at the min requirements for many contract jobs or are you "guessing" that you can just walk into a job with ZERO PIC hours but from the flying school? You'll be LAUGHED AT for even applying. No airlines outside the CAD / CX umbrella recognise hours under a P2X rating (as it is not a "real" or recognised rating away from the CAD) nor do they recognise time in the bunk: only "seat time".

Go to a "legacy carrier"? And offer them what? Again a P2X rating for 6 years, perhaps RHS time without an ATP/ATPL or any PIC hours? Keep dreaming that dream cause that's as close as you'll get.

But of course, you all knew about this as you've done your research, eh? Or are you just shooting off ideas without ANY idea of the REAL WORLD of airline operations, needs and demands?

After 6 years as SO on a P2X rating a guy flying an average of only 600 hours per year (very low figure, but worst case scenario!) in GA with 3600 of which 2000 are as PIC on singles and light twins and perhaps 1600 hrs as FO on a turbo prop will be FAR, FAR ahead of ANY of you when competing for a job. Because your P2X hours ARE NOT RECOGNISED!!!!! You will still be at least another 3 or 4 years away from holding an ATPL which again prevents you from going anywhere when an ATP/ATPL is a requirement!!!!!!

So one day if you finally discover that those of us who did turn down the offer did actually know what we were talking about and now you want to leave HK and CX, you are stuck and at best 6 years behind those of similar age. Put you in a sim vs the GA guy and the results would be chalk and cheese on basic attitude flying skills, let alone an NDB approach with x-wind.

How stupid and naive and ignorant can you kids be thinking time as SO makes you a better FO or Capt as opposed a single pilot PIC making all the decisions for him/herself, as very well put in an earlier post.

You kids are fast making a laughing stock out of yourselves due to the complete and utter naivety of the questions and opinions you post here. But for a few like EM777ER most have no idea of the facts. At least this person has done lengthy research and privately sought the opinions of those with experience.

Evidence from this forum overwhelming points to the vast majority of you knowing little to nothing of the real long term facts.

Passion and ambition without knowledge & solid direction are USELESS.

Em773ER

14th May 2011, 09:56

And i think 6 yrs without touching the commands could be frustrating, if you really like flying.

i agree JB, we often hear "flying is my dream"... well the cadet contract is the alarm clock and if that doesn't wake them up... who knows what will

Today i knew 2 guys which refused the CX's offer, and initially i got astonished
, but now i can understand them. I wont apply too. And i hope other people will do the same. There could be great passion and love for flying, but i think dignity comes first.

That's a smart decision. I applied early last year with little/no information (yes i was naive too) and i am currently "still waiting". I will decline this cpp too if offered (i still want my free trip to HK though lol), why? because i want the most out of this career, yes i believe in the term "start low", and thats what GA is for, but "staying low" is a term foreign to my vocabulary.

this guy/girl

the first one :ok:

Evidence from this forum overwhelming points to the vast majority of you knowing little to nothing of the real long term facts.

this is true, used to think that this cpp is "ok" for a single person younger than 23, but really looking at the long term when they are 30 and have a wife who wants divorce (at least she won't leave you for cheating with the flight attendants), kids who need schooling... this cpp is very far from ok.

mighty_mouse

did you pass flight grading last year?, did you get offered the cadet program?.... why the personal attacks? these guys have offered nothing but great advice, and if you don't agree with them that's no reason to insult them! you're entitled to your own opinion (even if you're wrong), but enforcing it on others by insulting them... such a professional demeanour you have... in fact, i think that an internet troll is someone who goes out their way to find a picture about them self on the net and have the audacity to post it on a public forum... you're defeating the purpose of pprunes anonymity. :) go get a haircut while you're at it.

ChinaBeached

14th May 2011, 11:09

blacklabel(ed):

My "curriculum" or my "curriculum vitae" (commonly known as a "CV") since these are two different things entirely?? I must ask as judging from your previous posts your grasp of written English seems as alien to you as a "spine", "integrity" or "logical comprehension of facts".

But since you ask and as expected from your ignorant and laziness to check my previous posts and background, just like the "passion" & "dedication" you show toward your research into becoming a CX (iCadet) pilot:

- A guy who worked his arse off paying for his own training and in debt drove as far as needed when and however necessary to land a job in GA;
- A guy who worked his arse off to go from one aircraft to another including single pilot night freight in multi engined aircraft for 4000+ hrs before EARNING the right to be invited to CX for an interview and then locked himself away for 3 months to study, study, study, study while holding down a full time job flying;
- A guy who interviewed for CX over 3 years ago and turned the iCadet / SO offer down twice recently as I know and value what I am worth as well as what saying "yes" would do to the industry and potential long term conditions at CX;
- An FO on a widebody with more IF hours than you have total time, more NDB and night circling approaches than you've had wet dreams; more 8 and 10 sector duties in the top end of Oz in the wet season, cyclonic conditions, icing and dust storms than you've hours watching Top Gun, and more take offs and landings in weather you are not permitted to fly in as day VFR circuit instructor with zero other commercial experience;
- 2 x tertiary credentials in Aviation that counts more than blindly regurgitating Trevor Thom's BAK;
- A guy who is not racist as you have shown yourself to be in a recent post;
- A guy who respects seniority and those who have earned my respect by position and to whom I listen and still take humble advice from instead of calling them "dorks".

So basically a no one from no-where, and one whom has NOTHING in common with the likes of a bigoted, cheap, naive, angry and nasty infantile sell-out like yourself.

That's all.

Em77ER: again mate, well done for the effort and integrity you've shown to your study, yourself and the preparation prior to blindly accepting this iCadet sham.

slotsdown

14th May 2011, 12:46

Do you senior "pilots" think that your "informative" comments will make us back down from this cadet-ship? You better face reality that no matter how negative you're about this scheme there will always be an influx of prospect cadets.

You tell us to go work in fast food outlets or supermarkets to make money and then pay for our training. What makes you think that we haven't done that and realised that by the time we do have the required licenses. It could take years to land that first job. We don't want to be jobless patiently waiting for that job, when Cathay is giving us a chance - even though the terms are crap and the wait to finally be part of the "team" - making decisions and decided decisions will take years.

Whether you're disgusted by our comments and repeated questions we (wannabes) are thinking of joining this cadetship.

Don't blame us, if you hate this cadetship so much, why not tell management. If management doesn't give a DAMN about your input about the cadetship then you better get used to it.

The reason why some of us don't give you guys the credit is because you hardly tell us the better side of this deal; you're constantly shooting us down telling us to back down and GROW UP!

Love it or hate it, we are here and plenty more of us are on their way - regardless of what you post.

"SEE YOU IN THE COCKPIT CAPTAIN":eek:

ChinaBeached

14th May 2011, 12:52

A very quick review of our illustrious "blacklabel's" previous post comes up with this beauty!!

Refer post #20 by "blacklabel" at http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/419038-jetstar-cadetship-again.html#post5772950

i don't believe in these cadetships, it makes kids dream and gives work to flying schools but will never make a good pilot out of anyone.

" ladies and gentlemen, this is you FO speaking, i'm 21 years old and i have 250h, the captain is in the toilet spewing his guts, we are arriving in Heathrow in an hour. There will be severe turbulence, snow storms and it is still night time "

(highlighting done by me)

So, not only are you racist, ignorant, naive and just plain stupid, but you are also two-faced. You IDIOT!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

solrac

14th May 2011, 15:07

this is so sad. I applied 3 years ago and got the invite for an interview to HK next month. No stage 1. They offered to fly me out for 3 nights.( panel interviews, sim eval and medical. I'm shocked that it has gotten down to this point. Normally they offer you a stage one interview which in my case would have been in YVR, but that seems to have changed already. I know to some they are thinking that's great, but to me it's a clear indication on how things have really changed.

My girl and I will fly out, although she will have to go on my travel passes as CX only bring wives on their dime.
The interview will def be a good experience as well as the sim eval, but the proof is in the pudding with these posts and I just don't see how I could make a life out of this career anymore. (like most of you CX was a BIG dream of mine)
I will tell you my tune has changed. I was excited about this opportunity at first, but I've looked at it in every way and for someone in my position it just doesn't makes sense and that's a tough thing to swallow. F@#$ i would have loved to have been a part of what Cathay once was. I know they will see right through me in the interview, but hey that will be an experience as it surely wont be the last interview I'll do. I never would have though i'd use CX as interview practice.

I want to apologize to any of those i may have offended with previous posts, l'm a passionate person and dreamer, I did not see things clearly, and while i'm still little hazy on things I do know for sure it is not close to how it once was, and for me personally there are far better chances close to home.

Thanks Emr777, you did most of the research for me and i appreciate your thoughts and focus.

If anyone wants to look at the most current package being offered with someone who has +1500 with atpl,, maybe some of you are in the same boat, i will gladly forward it to you. Cadet is not mentioned anywhere in the package, but im assuming that its all the same seeing as there are details regarding a forgivable loan which outline the cost of training. I assume its referring to FTA. I dont know anymore , my head is still swimming,

cheers everyone and thanks gain

mugzy

14th May 2011, 15:36

We don't want to be jobless patiently waiting for that job, when Cathay is giving us a chance Slotsdown. So instead of working your butt off like the rest of us you're going to sit on your backside with your fingers crossed hoping for a cadetship to land on your lap ? :ugh:

Where is your commitment ?

JulianB

14th May 2011, 16:30

All i wanna say to all you Young Aspirants (wannabe is really a bad word)
DONT BITE THIS BAIT
STOP ACCEPTING SUCH COMPROMISES, We can't play their game, we cant be slaves of a system that is fed by slaves.
Otherwise very soon we will became just Air Drivers, and not pilots!

Em773ER

14th May 2011, 16:58

Again, the impatience that our generation has, is appalling to say the least.

Never the less, you want "positives" ? ask and you shall receive:
- you get to see the world (oops only about 18-24hours layovers)
- you're guaranteed the dream job straight after training :) (oops your career will be f%#ked forever)
- you get to tell people you fly a shiny jet (oops you're a sandwich eater for almost half your "career")
- you will be "at the top", getting paid good money (oops 10k housing allowance in HK, + other "costs", read them in your own time)
- oh yeah the flight attendance ;) (oops :rolleyes: ... enough said)
- you will be "livin large in HK" (oops correction, you will be living in a 1 bedder in tung chung with no money at the end of the month to do anything)
- you get to try all sorts of different sandwiches (no oops there)
- hey wait a minute!!.. you get free training! why didn't i think of that first? (oops, because it's not "free", you repay it many times over, through out your entire "career")
- you will be a better pilot from observing other pilots fly, than "struggling" in GA (oops, wrong!!, read previous posts)

so there you have it slotsdown, the positives.... but food for thought.

Photos: Airbus A340-642 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cathay-Pacific-Airways/Airbus-A340-642/1306113/L/&sid=a491323b3f7b57bc4b781232822a4219) <<< can you sit in that seat for 6-8 years?, your sandwiches await you.

Cathay Pacific pilots hailed as heroes | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/cathay-pacific-pilots-hailed-as-heroes/story-e6frg95x-1225854262928)

Captain Fantastic (http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8209663)

RICHARD DE CRESPIGNY: Engine number two, overheat and failure. Engines one and four degraded two levels in thrust. Electrically, the left-hand side of the aircraft was dead. We lost 50% of the hydraulic systems. The brakes underneath the wings were reduced to 30% braking efficiency, and anti-skid was inoperative. Fuel system, 3 tanks out of 11 functioned, no transfer system was available. No jettison system. We had multiple holes in the wing, which disrupted the airflow over the wing and caused the stall speed to increase.

i wonder what a cadet entry pilot captain would have done in those situations. in the event things like this happen (hopefully it doesn't), but it could, as a cadet pilot entry captain, will you be able to make decisions like these guys did?... doubtful!

how about you get in the cpp first, before even insulting your potential future superiors.:ugh:

p.s. just in case anyone tries to be smart, we all know that CX don't use the 600s anymore, this is just a nice picture above, for illustrative purposes. :ok:

captain.weird

14th May 2011, 20:25

The guys who really, really, really want to enroll this CPP soooo bad, which statement would you consider?

- I'm a pilot because I love to fly..

- I'm a pilot because I love to eat sandwiches..

No, I'm not a m*therf*cker, but come on.. Calling captains dorks, blaming those which really give some advice here (thank you guys to give us advice! we need those!!), and yelling that you want to enroll this CPP so bad.. what the hell are you guys thinking and doing?

And yeah, being a CPT or F/O at a widebody is ticking some heading changes in the panel.. believe me.. if you fly in very bad weather, you'll have to land the plane automatically (CATIII), because the SOP's are saying that..

If you just want to wear that uniform, please tell me, I'll buy you one, so we are off from guys like you!!

Doing for almost 4 years research in the job (pilot) and flight schools, working for almost 5 years at some supermarkets and even a McD here (Em773er, I was a colleague of you haha!) saving every cent for a flight training.. No, I'm not there yet! You know why? Because it is a LOT OF MONEY!! And I know, you know, everyone knows, on what the hell you are spending your money at, it will have some effect at you and your bankaccount! If I spend some (no, it is huge amount, so 'A LOT OF') money in flight training I will really do everything to succeed, to thank myself that I can effort this by myself and kinda fun I give to myself.. I will aprecciate myself! Building some self-confidence is a very important thing in life.. It gives a lot of enery!

Em773er, you know me already, you know who I am.. Guys like you, yeah, these are the people where I want to sit next..

But the question, is what I've already said, it is quite simple, do you love to eat sandwiches or do you love to fly?

G_Orwell

14th May 2011, 23:09

i wonder what a cadet entry pilot captain would have done in those situations. in the event things like this happen (hopefully it doesn't), but it could, as a cadet pilot entry captain, will you be able to make decisions like these guys did?... doubtful!

Nobody here is questioning the professionalism, ability and experience of captains coming from the cadet scheme.
Nobody except you!
You don't even work in cathay and you think you are qualified to cast shadows over their ability?
Yes, share your opinion about the program, but try to do it professionally.
Let's keep it to facts, figures and career prospective.

KPHL

14th May 2011, 23:36

Em773ER,

Its one thing to talk about the iCadet package and how it sucks...okay we get it, if your not going to take the job, get off the forum because when you say things like this...

i wonder what a cadet entry pilot captain would have done in those situations. in the event things like this happen (hopefully it doesn't), but it could, as a cadet pilot entry captain, will you be able to make decisions like these guys did?... doubtful!

You sound like an idiot. A captain is a captain, it doesnt matter where he came from, if hes flying in the left seat (especially at Cathay), he is a qualified captain. Many captains, even at cx were cadets. So by you saying that its "doubtful that they can make decisions like these guys" is quite stupid and disrespectful to those captains who were cadets....

if you dont know what your talking about then stop...its getting annoying.

Em773ER

15th May 2011, 01:02

KPHL

15th May 2011, 01:58

you misunderstand my statement. i know there are cadet entry captains from years ago. and a captain is a captain regardless of how they got there, yes. i never said they can't make decisions like those guys, but i said its "doubtful" which is not the same same as "impossible".

i am 100% sure that a cadet entry captain would not have the same amount of decision making skills, perspective, abilites etc as a captain who came through GA. that is all i am trying to point out.

its comments like these by KPHL

Quote:
If anything being a SO will make you a better Captain or First Officer... you have had several years of following your colleagues in the flight deck and learning from them....
that show these guys are CLUELESS!

don't twist my words and tell me i'm questioning the professionalism, ability and experience of captains coming from the cadet scheme! there is nothing wrong comparing cadet entry captains vs GA entry captains Em773ER,

Your calling me Clueless? Are you even a pilot? If you sit in the jump seat for SIX years and you cannot learn from your peers on how to make decisions and become a responsible first officer or Captain, maybe you shouldnt even be near an airplane.

I know that GA helps you make decisions but are they really going to help you in the flight deck of a 777 or for that matter an A380?

Here, I'll even use the video you posted.

Captain Fantastic (http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8209663)

Your telling me that "you", a GA pilot can make a better decisions than the Second officer on that Qantas flight? (Remember they take cadets with ZERO flight time too).

Your mixing up Apples and Oranges, GA flying and Commercial Airline flying are two totally different ball game.

Heres my advice to you, if you are so concerned about money, DO NOT BECOME A PILOT, if not, then put your money where you mouth is, go start flying your beloved "General Aviation" airplanes, learn something and go get a job,

carpet weaver

15th May 2011, 02:13

i can understand why its important to have GA experience but if there are captains in CX who were ab initio cadets, then surely this cadet program must provide sufficient training to become a decent captain.

thats just my 2 cents

these are even your own words...

Em773ER

15th May 2011, 02:40

KPHL

Your calling me Clueless? Are you even a pilot? If you sit in the jump seat for SIX years and you cannot learn from your peers on how to make decisions and become a responsible first officer or Captain, maybe you shouldnt even be near an airplane.

yes i am a pilot, but that's irrelevant mate. firstly i never said an SO will not learn anything. your first statement is therefore an incorrect insult.

I know that GA helps you make decisions but are they really going to help you in the flight deck of a 777 or for that matter an A380?

..... :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: seriously? you're really going to make that argument?

Your telling me that "you", a GA pilot can make a better decisions than the Second officer on that Qantas flight? (Remember they take cadets with ZERO flight time too).

thats never what i said!!! why are you implying that i insinuated such remarks?!... and FYI Qantas do take 0 hour cadets.. but they put them in "industry placement" with QantasLink, flying dash 8s after their training for at least 2 years before becoming SOs.. so you are wrong yet again.

Your mixing up Apples and Oranges, GA flying and Commercial Airline flying are two totally different ball game.

yes perhaps in some ways that is correct... but just look at the big picture and you will see what i mean.

Heres my advice to you, if you are so concerned about money, DO NOT BECOME A PILOT, if not, then put your money where you mouth is, go start flying your beloved "General Aviation" airplanes, learn something and go get a job

the way i see it is, you are saying CX cpp is the only way of becoming a pilot therefore i shouldn't be a pilot because i don't like the pay that icadets get... no advice taken thanks. i'm gona work hard in GA, get hands on experience and actually enjoy it, and when i'm ready for airlines ill be earning what i deserve.

carpet weaver

Quote:
i can understand why its important to have GA experience but if there are captains in CX who were ab initio cadets, then surely this cadet program must provide sufficient training to become a decent captain.

thats just my 2 cents

these are even your own words...

hey i blatantly admitted that i was a naive wannabe (and thanks for proving me right), but after long research i now see the big picture and not as naive as i once was.

crwjerk

15th May 2011, 05:52

The CX Command course is probably the most difficult on the planet. ANYBODY who passes it, whether a former Cadet or not, deserves and receives the respect that goes with it. ( Except for one, but he's gone now and he was just dangerous). Once you've done your 15-20 years putting the gear up and down, you too will have the chance to earn some respect.
The fact is, while you're an SO who's had no flying experience before, ( except for the training ), you'll have pretty much no idea what the hell is going on. You'll know the rules as they are written in the books, and you'll agree with the rest of the crew on anything because you won't have the experience to know any better. This is the dangerous sort of situation the current pilots and " INTERNET TROLLS" are warning against.
It will all come slowly after a few years, but by all means, nobody is perfect, and nobody expects that you'll not make a decent Commander. It will just take a lot longer for it to happen.

Em773ER

15th May 2011, 07:57

The fact is, while you're an SO who's had no flying experience before, ( except for the training ), you'll have pretty much no idea what the hell is going on. You'll know the rules as they are written in the books, and you'll agree with the rest of the crew on anything because you won't have the experience to know any better. This is the dangerous sort of situation the current pilots and " INTERNET TROLLS" are warning against.

That's all I was trying to point out to these guys, hope that argument is settled. Good post crwjerk :ok:

DashQ

15th May 2011, 08:36

Are they getting desperate?

Experienced applicants being asked to go straight to HK for the final stage. They arent having to do stage 1.

SMOC

15th May 2011, 10:01

Any truth to the rumor of short course (4 week) cadets being told they'll get a rapid upgrade to JF/O as a deal sweetener? CX is severly short on applications for the short course.

If true, 30 week and 60 week cadets can expect even longer at S/O, 7yrs, 8 who knows?

The other possibility is, suitable short course cadets will be told of the rapid upgrade in the interview but having joined and satisfied CX need for S/Os in the short term, will learn 18 months later approaching the so called upgrade time that for unforeseen circumstances you can't upgrade due to possible industrial action re jumping the seniority list or other factors.

Remember what happened to the instructor cadets, they were told expat terms but that offer was later rescinded!

JulianB

15th May 2011, 14:42

Apart TR, can The HK CPL be converted to JAA in case an SO leaves the company after a couple of years?

Cpt. Underpants

15th May 2011, 16:03

AFAIK, no - it can't convert. I don't believe the FAA allow "conversion" of licenses from any country.

I think that there's a fair chance that they may recognize your hours, subject to audit of course.

Careful here, the so-called s/o "rating" is known as the P2X - you do a nominal technical conversion, but REALLY limited simulator and NO real aircraft bumps and grinds. Only a fraction of your "hours" count towards a higher license.

Just so you know...

As an s/o your duties are in flight relief only.

You're only allowed in a window seat above 20,000ft - so, no take offs or landings.

No FMC or cockpit setups.

Make the bunks (chocolate on the pillow not required but may get you brownie points!)

Eat the crap sandwiches (4th pick after CN, RLF, F/O).

R/T in cruise and fuel checks.

File the Jepp charts after landing.

For those who don't know about HKG girls - no money, no honey. You ain't getting nuttin' (they know about the ****e salary)

REPEAT. Three times monthly, for 6 years...

JulianB

15th May 2011, 18:23

for those who don't know about hkg girls - no money, no honey. You ain't getting nuttin' (they know about the ****e salary)
s l u t s.

Stallone

16th May 2011, 08:22

Cathay Pacific plane makes emergency landing (http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_669166.html)

Steady CX715 pilot:ok:

ChinaBeached

16th May 2011, 09:00

Taken from the Fragrant Harbour forum, a brief summary: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/451160-numbers.html

Thanks to Capt. Underpants, SMOC and yokebearer:

CX made USD1.8 billion profit and pays staff 6 weeks bonus...

EK made USD1.6 billion profit and pays staff 12 weeks bonus.

I think what should be taken on board here is that SAA has a very strong union. And as a result they have managed to keep their contract conditions and pay at good levels. As opposed to CX...

SIA

Just over S1bn or 800 mill US profit (less than 1/2 of CX).

Profit Share

Mainline 3.5 months

Freight 2.4 months

And yet still CX opt for cheaper means to pay their pilots, and so many are blindly lining up to accept it in the face of this greedy and unscrupulous management. So do you still think CX are offering an "opportunity" as per the iCadet scheme or a grab for money to line their own (management) pockets at your expense throughout your entire tenure at CX?

How much more evidence do so many of you need??

ETOPS240

16th May 2011, 10:23

ChinaBeached,

I'm not looking for an argument, however, from another perspective -

SIA - bonuses for employees only, not contract pilots; as far as I'm aware, all expats at SIA nowadays are contract pilots.

On top of that, SIA salary is hugely inferior to CX's. In Singapore, cost of living is also very high. Not as high as Hong Kong, granted, but still a hell of a shock to someone coming from nigh-on anywhere else.

EK - Overall package at EK is OK. That said, I'm sure most at CX would rather count their bunk time as duty time, have actual flight time limitations and not live in Dubai. I folks think that employment practice in HK (or anywhere else, for that matter) is a little suspect, it pales into insignificance when compared to EK.

That said, of course it would have been great to have similar percentage bonuses to the aforementioned, but by no means does that make the grass greener over there.

Cheers.

ChinaBeached

16th May 2011, 11:07

Other educated and factual opinions are always welcomed. When we can't appreciate another's point of view then what's the point of a forum to discuss things? It's the mindless, ill informed and naive comments that are what all too often occurs on this thread unfortunately.

(What happened to "blacklabel's" posts? All deleted I see after being caught out. Too funny! And "slotsdown" has already passed the interviews and in a cockpit seat as he sees it!)

Yeah, it's not always apples and apples strictly speaking. My point was more as a general perspective. It would be better to gain a more ratio based appraisal of these stats.

My point is, and perhaps not well put above is that CX have record profits and offer their new pilots far, far less as a salary package as a result: the iCadet and HKPA. Get more, give less!!

And CX's history of living up to their word and respecting officers' terms and conditions? Or do they hunt for ways to change them, reduce them, lower them in the name of cost cutting: but not from their own pockets, instead to line them only. This is just something I wish these iCadet defenders and hopefuls would consider.

ETOPS240

16th May 2011, 12:02

Yeah, it's not always apples and apples strictly speaking. My point was more as a general perspective. It would be better to gain a more ratio based appraisal of these stats.

Aye, I doubt that you'd find too many people in disagreement on that. The rest - all been covered ad-nauseam. It's clear enough what side you're on regarding the subject, and I've no right to object to your opinions. I'm not suggesting they're different to mine, either. However, I will say that unfortunately, the industry has changed, and will continue to do so. Until a better/more viable alternative comes along, hopefuls will continue to apply in scores.

Yes, it's a large reduction in conditions, and yes, one can certainly object to the motives behind it. That said, to someone with little/no commercial experience, it does remain head and shoulders above their alternatives.

To that end, I think one must recognise why there are huge numbers of applicants, and accept the reality. Agreeing with it is somewhat irrelevant, but respecting someone's choice is surely something to behold. Provided, of course, it is an informed one.

Regarding the ill-informed, the naive, rude, self-righteous ones; well, I'm right with you. Hopefully Darwinnian mechanics will play a role along the way.

Cheers!

tithybo

16th May 2011, 16:50

Hye all,
I just would like to be sure that I fully understand the current situation.
I am well aware of the new deal for the Cadet and second officer, and we have a detailed explanation in a previous post.
However, I don't know anything about the future deal for the first officer and captain (I mean, the deal in the future when the current cadet will get upgraded to FO or CPT later....)
Do anyone know some figures ? Because on the CX website, a few numbers are given, and they are pretty much the same as the one I can see on pilotjobsnetwork, which I guess are based on the current payscale. So, could anyone be more specific about what's going on please ?
And thanks everybody for the thread and information/warnings.

ap_797

16th May 2011, 18:54

Hi all,
I was wondering what the most common reasons are for candidates failing flight grading?

In terms of conversion to a JAA licence, can this be done once the rank of F/O is reached or is it simply a fact that a HK ATPL will never be able to be concerted to a JAA one? If the latter were true does this mean re-doing the whole ATPL course at a JAA approved institution?

Where in the world is the HK ATPL recognised and accepted? Can it be used to apply for jobs in Europe and the Middle East?

Any help would be great,

Thanks guys!

hammerhead99

16th May 2011, 21:15

Hello all, Hope everyones doing great

I'm a Canadian pilot who just finished my diploma, has appx.230 hrs in 152, 172 and BE-76 and I have my SO initial interview scheduled for the 24th in Vancouver.
I was hoping someone who reads this could give me some tips on what exactly to expect, what to wear, and what to study. I have a fair idea but would appreciate any aid.

I've been reading these posts and there seems to be alot of angst regarding the financial aspect of working for Cx but all I'm concerned with is passing the first interview lol.

Thanks for your time

crwjerk

17th May 2011, 01:05

I was wondering what the most common reasons are for candidates failing flight grading?

Don't know. Could be because;
1. The candidate was not up to speed, or
2. The Instructors there have just had their expat contracts changed to local terms?

lost&found

17th May 2011, 02:11

Hammerhead

was hoping someone who reads this could give me some tips on what exactly to expect, what to wear, and what to study. I have a fair idea but would appreciate any aid.

I've been reading these posts

if you have read the posts, you will know what is involved with the interview/ what to study. I wouldnt suggest rocking up in shorts and a T-shirt... use some initiative champ! what do you think you should wear to an interview?

ap:
Where in the world is the HK ATPL recognised and accepted? Can it be used to apply for jobs in Europe and the Middle East?

CX is a career airline, its not a stepping stone, or a place to "build" hours! Have a read through the last couple of pages....

Em773ER

17th May 2011, 06:44

I am well aware of the new deal for the Cadet and second officer, and we have a detailed explanation in a previous post.
However, I don't know anything about the future deal for the first officer and captain (I mean, the deal in the future when the current cadet will get upgraded to FO or CPT later....)
Do anyone know some figures ? Because on the CX website, a few numbers are given, and they are pretty much the same as the one I can see on pilotjobsnetwork, which I guess are based on the current payscale. So, could anyone be more specific about what's going on please ?

Well I don't know if this is true but this is what was posted in a previous post by "The Rents"

With the new housing allowance of 120,000 hkd per annum, rising with rank, basic pay of 330,000 hkd + 9% rise this year, plus another 3% next year, a guaranteed flight allowance for 84 hours flying per month equalling 28,000 hkd per annum you can't afford to pratt about. That lot gives you in excess of 500,000 hkd per annum.

but i'm not certain whether these figures are correct. All I know (correct me if i'm wrong), is that by the time you're first year captain via cadet scheme, you may be earning as much or less than a 3rd year DESO (roughly). and also i dont think the housing allowance will rise with rank, as mentioned by the rents.

and another post you might find of interest.

Then when you finally go right hand seat as First Officer, it only lasts 2 years maximum as you will then become a "Relief Pilot" which is another term they invented to save costs to save having 2 captains on a flight. What this means is that you will spend your time doing the same job as.. guess what..? Yes a Second Officer again! So great, you do relief pilot work for probably 5 to 10 years until your command. And they have just extended the retirement age, so you will have to wait even longer for upgrade to Captain.

And even better, when you are a first officer and a Captain, you will be working your ring off. The working hours are apaprently ****e. I personally dont mind working hard but these guys say that their efforts are beyond resonable definitions. They told me about a loophole the compnay uses called "split duty" where you fly to a destination at night, spend 40 minutes on a bus to a crappy hotel where you sleep for around 5 hours, then bus back to the airport and fly back to Hong Kong, which I guess would be ok once in awhile but they do it all the time. Sounds like the Hong Kong regulator turns a bit of a blind eye over there which is not very reassuring.

When you upgrade to Captain you will get a special management allowance which is about 1/3 of the housing allowance that expat pilots get, again i'm not sure if this is true.

Plain & simple it's the package. I have done the maths in every possible way, including offshore accounts, shelf companies, etc to make it work. I wanted CX and tried to find a way. The cold hard facts are that I WILL NOT be able to comfortably retire. The pilots and crew cannot trust management to honour a contract. To own my own property is not unachievable but a very distant goal: up to 15-20 years of strict (very strict) saving because initially as SO I won't be able to. Add any possibility of wife, kids, education, associated costs....? No. It can't be done on this salary in HK & the costs of living.

It's never been the seat I sit in or the bars on the shoulders to parade about the mirror in. It's about a CAREER that leaves me able to show a responsibility to a hopeful family & eventual retirement. This package CANNOT offer that.

you don't need the specifics tithybo, from that post, its obvious that the deals you get as FO and Cpt on this package are still no where near good enough for comfortable retirement, do what you will with what info you get. hope that helps :ok:

crwjerk

17th May 2011, 09:30

36000 for captain. Still less than a 2 yr S/O on expat terms NOW.

ap_797

17th May 2011, 09:37

Hi guys,
on the website it says 45,000 HKD per month salary for an S/O. This means 540,000HKD per year. That equates to around $80,000 per year or around £50,000.

Is everyone saying that this is not good on relative terms (i.e what you could have gotten or before), or on absolute terms (as in suggesting that a starting salary of $80,000 whatever the job, is considered crap).

If it is the latter, i.e. absolute terms, then am i missing something here because although rents are high, an $80k starting salary is pretty good whatever job a person is doing!!

SMOC

17th May 2011, 10:26

HPA - HK Pilot Allowance (pm).

S/O - 10k (and JF/O).
F/O - 14k
SF/O - 18k
CN (1-4yr) - 24k (what used to be a management allowance).
CN(5-8yr) - 30k
CN (9yr+) - 36k

Expat variable rental could top 80k pm so an expat S/O (yr3+) could get more than a local Capt.

It'll be 20yrs before you make what a 3rd yr S/O could make now.

Tax on expat housing is on a reduced rate not so for the HPA.

Also bases are a way to reduce expat costs, without expat costs I see no need for CX to have bases in the future, they are going through some serious negotiating re bases at the moment.

I wouldn't say CX is a career airline anymore but as I've said it could by default due to licence issues, P2X time, MPL, lack of command time, seniority etc.

$ Correction thanks to GTC58

Em773ER

17th May 2011, 10:34

ap_797

I reckon the reason its 45k/mnth is because of the added 10k "housing allowance" for icadets, it used to be around 35k/mnth before the allowance was introduced... I might be wrong but it seems likely to be the case. You are right in that the pay is pretty good, but in HK its not enough to allow you to have a good lifestyle.

and to add to your question earlier

In terms of conversion to a JAA licence, can this be done once the rank of F/O is reached or is it simply a fact that a HK ATPL will never be able to be concerted to a JAA one? If the latter were true does this mean re-doing the whole ATPL course at a JAA approved institution?

Where in the world is the HK ATPL recognised and accepted? Can it be used to apply for jobs in Europe and the Middle East?

I happen to know a guy who did the instructor course, and he was telling me that they had to convert their HKCPL to australian CPLs to do instructing there, all they had to do was law and i think a couple of other subjects. but what interests me is the fact that after their 3 years instructing, they would have at least 2000hrs PIC hours and multi PIC as well, allowing them to refuse the SO offer and work for an australian carrier (given they do Oz ATPLs), thats why i think CX stopped the instructor course, because of that risk (although they would have to pay back the forgiveable loan). I could be wrong but that also seems likely to be the case, so don't think about leaving CX if you're going to do this cpp.

PPRuNeUser0163

17th May 2011, 11:21

EM773ER,

how current is your information regarding the Instructor course guys? I know a few and most are extremely upset at broken promises, the company extending their time in ADL and even a promise to reduce the time at FTA being reversed.. Also I heard now when they join CX as a S/O they will be put on local (ICAD) terms .. can anyone confirm this too?

are they bonded till they becomes S/Os? If so could prove a bit of a problem- id hazard a few might look to leave as you say....:uhoh:

Em773ER

17th May 2011, 11:56

nkand

as current as it can be :ok:, I and the many others on this forum can confirm that the instructor cadets' contracts were ripped up by CX and used as toilet paper by management. but in all seriousness yes they will now join on local terms, opposed to their promised full expat terms. and i'm not too sure about their time in ADL being extended, all i know is its 3 years from graduation and they are about half way through?, something like that. either way, the morale of the story is that CX doesn't honour its contracts.

captain.weird

17th May 2011, 13:16

And what about the job then as S/O? Did they still have to work for +/- 4 years like the iCadets or was that reduced to approx. 18 months?

GTC58

17th May 2011, 14:00

SMOC

FO is 14K/month
SFO is 18K/month

ap_797

17th May 2011, 14:20

EM773ER

Thanks a lot for your reply. What you say with respect to the salary having apparently increased does make sense.

As for those instructors down in ADL, having racked up circa 2000hrs of PIC time, couldn't an option for them be to return to cathay, do their required bonded service (not sure how long this is?) and then move back down to Oz as that way they would have avoided having to repay the 'forgiveable loan' and are in a better position to apply to other airlines? Just a thought!

Also, with this forgiveable loan, after the icadets have done their required length of service (I believe this is 6 years?) are they able to walk away from Cathay with no liability to repay any of the training costs? (Obviously it'd be near impossible to find a job elsewhere owing to lack of PIC time but i'm just wondering how long a cadet has this 'liability' hanging over them for?).

One other thing, how much can S/O's expect to earn each year or month in duty allowances?

Thanks a lot guys for all your help. Some very informative posts in this thread! :ok:

Em773ER

17th May 2011, 15:05

C.W

And what about the job then as S/O? Did they still have to work for +/- 4 years like the iCadets or was that reduced to approx. 18 months?

i'm not too sure about the 18 month period to upgrade from SO to FO for the instructors, highly doubt it. If DESOs had/have to do it for at least 3 years then my best bet is that they would have had to as well.

ap_797

Also, with this forgiveable loan, after the icadets have done their required length of service (I believe this is 6 years?) are they able to walk away from Cathay with no liability to repay any of the training costs? (Obviously it'd be near impossible to find a job elsewhere owing to lack of PIC time but i'm just wondering how long a cadet has this 'liability' hanging over them for?).

yes and yes, they can walk away after the 6 years of service with no liability to repay the loan to CX, and yes it would be near impossible to find a job, and a pain to convert to JAA to FAA CPL. as mentioned before by lost&found, CX is definitely not an "hour building" airline.

One other thing, how much can S/O's expect to earn each year or month in duty allowances?

not sure if these below are correct for today, they were the rough figures back in 2008 maybe you can use them as a guide...

For pay issues the duty time is essentially blocks off to blocks on.
The duty pay depends on the number of hours.
SO $20 (0-55.9) $35 (56-69.9) $60 (70-84)
JFO $30 (0-55.9) $50 (56-69.9) $90 (70-84)

You will typically do 75+ hours per month. Therefore 75 hours would equate to A) 55.9 x $20 = $1118 + B) 13.9 x $35 = $486.50 + C) 5.1 x $60 = $306
A+B+C = $1910.50

hope that helps:ok:

depart5

17th May 2011, 15:29

Hey scottb12,

I dont have first hand info but the 30 week programme is simply a modification of the 60 week programme for pilot who already have commercial licenses. It should involve basically a few hours of flight instruction and a check ride after that to see how well you learn new stuff or a new AC, then followed by the basic conversion process, ground school, MCC training etc ..

I'm on the second round of applying, where is your interview going to be?

Cheers

ETOPS240

17th May 2011, 18:40

EM77777somethingI'llneverfly,

It would seem that (perhaps due to your failure on the iCadet course) you have an axe to grind with the scheme. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

First off, let me explain that I am not on the new scheme. I am happily (luckily) on an earlier rate. I'm merely bringing some perspective.

That said, seeing as you're quoting figures left and right (which you clearly have no foundation for); you show me which airline offers a higher NET salary to the newcomers than this. BA, TCX, Tiger, Singapore, EY, FR, EZ, even VS, and other carriers that require serious experience.

Sorry, son. I hate to side with the scheme, but you're nothing other than a bitter failure. The fact remains, that despite the reduction in terms, it is still financially a country mile ahead of what else is out there. And before you start harping on about HK, I've lived in London and New York. Both of which are at least as costly as HK. Anyone with less than 7 kids can easily get by.

Back in your box, you're looking more and more idiotic by the day.

SMOC

17th May 2011, 22:49

ETOPS240, when you say earlier rate, I take it you mean expat terms.

ETOPS240

18th May 2011, 00:35

I totally agree. My point isn't that I condone what's happening to conditions (in the industry as a whole, also). My point is that I understand why folks are applying for it.

In my opinion, they don't deserve to be shot down. Yes, advice - here and there - allowing them to become more informed, is a good thing. Certainly, the farcical remarks here about living in poverty are utter hogwash, and are embarrassing to hear from supposedly educated people. What's not a good thing, is shooting applicants down because you don't like what's happening to the company.

Let them be the judge of that. Give them decent information (good luck with that), and let them make their minds up. Respect their decision, because unless one is particularly blindsighted, it's an understandable one, and from their shoes, a good one.

The fact that the industry is changing for the worse at each and every airline is not the responsibility of the applicants.

I'm all for agreement on the industry, I just can't abide by people shooting applicants down, and providing utterly rubbish information in order to prove their points.

Em773ER

18th May 2011, 00:43

ETOPS

I won't argue on this forum anymore. But thanks for your opinion. I don't have an axe to grind, particularly for the scheme, but for naive wannabes who haven't taken the time to do a little research to say the least, period. If one has taken the time to look at the info, and they really know what they are getting into, they can do what they want. I even have a few friends who are SOs now on the new scheme, and they knew what they were getting into, it works for them and they are enjoying themselves. And I agree that if you manage your money right, you can get by in HK on this package, just not as good as the other guy on expat terms doing the same job as you. (i dont know if one can easily get by with 4 kids though)

I'm not an icadet failure honest, it simply isn't my cup of tea. However, tell me this... would you be happy if you got offered the new contract? its easy to look down from up there where you are with expat terms, but if you really got offered this contract I doubt you would have the same attitude. The figures i'm pulling left and right are from previous posts by current CX pilots, not my own so if you have a problem with them, contact the posters. I even had the decency to quote them. Yes perhaps I don't know as much as you do, but at least i'm passing on what I know, and if its incorrect, I always say "correct me if i'm wrong".

you show me which airline offers a higher NET salary to the newcomers than this. BA, TCX, Tiger, Singapore, EY, FR, EZ, even VS, and other carriers that require serious experience.

Ok ill go get them right away sir!!!!. if you look over there the net salary for tiger and EY is .... :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

collaudatore

18th May 2011, 09:22

Does anybody knows if Cathay is currently recruiting/seeking SO?

Many thanks.

SMOC

18th May 2011, 09:39

ROFLMAO :ok:

collaudatore

18th May 2011, 09:50

ROFLMAO :ok:

??????????

SMOC

18th May 2011, 10:01

(Google 0.17 sec).

scottb12

18th May 2011, 10:10

Hey depart5 cheers for the reply! Yeh it sounds like it will be a bit repetitive for myself as I have already done my IR/MCC etc unless they want everybody to go through MCC training again anyway for everybody to follow the same SOPs etc but an MCC doesn't take 30 weeks neither does a type rating! Unless this is just a general time scale and they tailor it to everybody's training requirements. But then I do not understand why they advertise the short course with ATPL exam passes but you must have 1500 hours. Also the 30 week program doesn't say anything about requiring ATPL exams so I was wondering if the 30 weeks included learning for these also? I haven't been able to find any more info on this.

I have my interview in London. So I understand you have been through the interview before? or did you not get invited the first time? How much experience do you currently have?

scottb12

18th May 2011, 13:10

RW 31

Try dropping them an email maybe not to ask them if you have been successful but to update your application if you have anything that may be of interest to them, I applied at beggining of year but I emailed them around a month ago to update my application as I now have more hours since I applied and they got back to me.

TryHarder

18th May 2011, 13:55

Hi,

Could anyone give me some idea of the living costs out in HK? I may be interested in the Transition Training for Second Officers, and i was wondeering what sort of standard of living I might expect off a Gross salary of 45,000HK per month? I've heard that accomodation is very expensive and that saving money is difficult...

Is anyone who is living there able to give me some idea?

Thanks!

scottb12

18th May 2011, 15:47

R31, I dont have the email to hand at the moment but I just replied to the same address from which I initially recieved my confirmation of my application from.

Voiceofreason

19th May 2011, 04:32

Tryharder

Steer clear of complete naysayers at any event. There are plenty here who live just fine on the package. I'm with ETOPS 100% on this one - when compared to what else is out there, it's a pretty easy choice to make.

Many have quoted living costs here before, but I'll give it another whirl:

Housing - $15-$18k a month, depending on size/location. It'll be small-ish (700 sqft or so) for this price if you want to live in town, or slightly bigger (900 sqft) if you are OK with living a bit further away
Food - $3-5k a month depending on if you're single or not
Utilities - $2-3k a month
Phone/Internet - $1k a month (max)
Entertainment - tough one, but count on around $5-6k a month for a few decent nights out
Education - this is obviously not applicable if you don't have kids, but need to factor it in if you do (although CX pays a decent portion)

That should leave you with some savings and room for manouevre.

I'm curious about the forgiveable loan though - what have they told you about that?

ChinaBeached

19th May 2011, 05:09

Hi, I've got some questions that anyone who can only tell me nice things can answer please. If there is any real truth, first hand experience or many tears of experience then don't answer! I think I already have my mind made up anyway, but here goes:

I just watched Top Gun and then Air Crash Investigations. As a result I now want to be a pilot and have the right stuff.

Does Cathy employ pilots?

Also, who is Cathy?

If Cathy is as nice as she seems, will she pay me? (It really doesn't matter anyway....)

What should I wear when I arrive for my first flight? I think the interview is just a formality. I have a really funny t-shirt with a dog getting it's nuts caught on a barbed wire fence!! They will love it!

Is it REALLY and TRULY and REALLY true the sandwiches are FREE?

Will I get to be a Captain in 2 years, or 3?

I think Cathy will be good to me. Is it true I can be based anywhere I want? After all, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to!!! I think HK is a 2 hour drive north from my home in Majorca so it's pretty close anyway.

What is "seniority"?

I've done LOTS of research! But what are those other 140 pages all about on this thread?

I've never earned an income before so this is A LOT of money for the game arcade! I haven't considered any long term plans but everything is FREE!!

In 5 years is it true that I'll own my own 2500 sq ft apartment? I'll get a non factored $10k a month initially (they are SO NICE!) and only I've heard as much as a 3rd SO gets now when I become Captain (2 years?) so after all my research, where is the best place to park my cars and buy the apartment?

What's an "SO"? What does it stand for?

What is a forgivable loan? Does it mean if I say "Sorry, I really want to be a fireman now" they will forgive me?

Where is Adelaide? I think I have to go there for something. Is that true? WHY?

What is a P2X? Don't they know I ALREADY have a PSP!!!???

With all the research I've done, after 3 years I'll be a Captain on a Boeing 380 and about 15,000 hrs in my log book (what is that for anyway?). Can I use that to go back to Europe / America / Australia / NZ / Asia?? After all, I don't want to do "too much" study before telling them how passionate I am about my future!

I can't wait to meet the DFO, GMO and CEO and thank them!! What an opportunity! Apparently they really want to thank me instead??!! Something to do with the new 5 bedroom bungalow in Seminyak??

Does Cathy still sleep with the DFO, GMO and CEO because I don't want to be seen as being screwed or used!!

Thanks for any advice, cause I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY have to done so much study and mum and dad are so proud of me already!

ixg888

19th May 2011, 05:59

hi guys greetings of peace!

anyone knows where can we find a good read in the net about the grob..
its vx vy vr... limitations .. weight and balance envelope.. or simply its POH

lost&found

19th May 2011, 06:51

@chinabeached:
CLASSIC... ROTFL!

@voice:

Housing - $15-$18k a month, depending on size/location. It'll be small-ish (700 sqft or so) for this price if you want to live in town, or slightly bigger (900 sqft) if you are OK with living a bit further away

a whopping 900sqft, what to do with all that space!

Em773ER

19th May 2011, 10:01

@chinabeached :D :D very nice!!

don't forget the free flight to HK Cathy gives during stage 2 ;)

SMOC

19th May 2011, 14:22

When it boils down to it, there are two cultures here.

1. Thinks a 700sf flat is reasonable living including a family and it's more important to drive the latest BMW. So the fact that the CX package allows them to live alone in the same size apartment is a vast improvement.

2. Thinks a 3 bedroom home, garage, a yard with enough room to kick a footy and save for their first car is reasonable.

Which group are/were you?

The cadet package is aimed at group 1 and group 2 with shiny jet syndrome.

A cadet package with a low cost carrier is better than this deal, at least you actually fly once you graduate.

Wait till you're in the lobby of a hotel and a guest comes up to you thinking your are bell boy of the hotel, the one stripe jacket doesn't really cut it.

PS @chinabeached classic :ok::ok::ok:

SloppyJoe

19th May 2011, 17:37

Ha ha, yeap happened to me more than once. Can you tell me where the toilets are? What time is check out? Also happens in the airport, can you tell me where to check in for air france? Can you help me with finding my lost luggage?

ChinaBeached

19th May 2011, 23:56

Will those questions be asked in the interview?

Jay_solo

20th May 2011, 09:31

I read you fly 2-3 trips a month on average. But as a SO, does the crewing department allow you to bid for trips or even swap trips with another SO?

And do you have to do a standby each month?

carl_g

20th May 2011, 11:09

Wow I don't know anything about flying and lurk here for fun.
You guys going for the cadet program should think about it more.

It would be like someone applying for my occupation (police officer)
and accepting a low paying job that involves only taking notes and maybe working the siren, and doing this for years. We would not respect you from a career point
of view because of your "flunky" status and when you go to another force to apply using your experience they would just laugh and recommend you apply and start from square one. You would not be invited to coffee or swing shift parties due to our embarrassment on your behalf regarding the career path you've taken.

But! You get to ride in a police car and wear a uniform. Isn't that cool? No. The novelty wears off and it's your passion for the job (if there is any left after dealing with the politics of the job) and your long term achievments, professional contacts, friendships, and approaching retirement that keep you going. I only compare this to my occupation because I can relate to it but am sure others can apply their jobs to this scenario as well.

Do any pilots here agree with this simplistic comparison?

Victor Wong

20th May 2011, 12:58

i know a guy appied march 2010, receive a 1st interview email in march 2011. he is based in sydney. so it is still possible to be selected.

good luck

aile_striker

21st May 2011, 03:27

rumour is they are having so many applications since opening up to international applicants that it normally takes about 8 months (give or take) for your application to be processed.

ChinaBeached

21st May 2011, 03:42

Mr_T

23rd May 2011, 05:04

I was sent a email 2 weeks ago saying "we are pleased to advise you that you are shortlisted for the Stage 2 Interview".

Im still waiting to hear, anyone else in the same boat?

flyinryan76

23rd May 2011, 17:37

Hey Mr. T,

Yea, I'm in the same boat as you... still waiting for a date on the stage 2. Did they give you a date yet?

Mr Fusion

23rd May 2011, 18:30

Aile.... Tell me more?!!!!! I am REALLY passionate about this breaking news!

Just one question, the TWO THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND TEN posts before yours on ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE pages..... what the hell are they all about?

Can you really get online and apply from "anywhere"?

Or, written for most iCadets to "get":

yo all yez homies.me n me crew gonna do fly'in stuff 'cauze fly'in ROCKS! n all.when me n me peeps slip on in ta cathy 4 da gig n say stuff like "yo waz-up" all da chicks gonna go "yeah, yooz rock!" n all!!all yooz haytas out dair n all yooz dorks beta chill cauze we rock n yooz dont.but me peeps n me wanna no yo waz-up n how do yez becum pilots enyway?i'm gona be jus like m&m n p-diddly n 50cent wit me own crew n stuff like dat!!!!all yooz beta look out!!! c yez in da cocpit captin!!!!!!
Well... Most of the posts in this thread are from trolls like yourself. There's no "Troll Filter" that I know of... But I have a solution: You could stop acting like a petulant child, swallow your pride and get over it. The boat has sailed on CX. Move on. :cool:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll repost this because it got buried under a lot of nonsense:

I interviewed last month for the "transition" CPP job in HK. If you'd like some info. on it I wrote a gouge. PM me if you'd like it.

Take care everyone! :)

flyinryan76

23rd May 2011, 20:55

Mr. T - I apparently didn't read your post clearly and missed the fact that you said you got a reply two weeks ago. Did you interview in SFO by any chance?

Mr. Fusion - check P.M.'s

NoseGear

23rd May 2011, 21:03

Aiminghigh, your either an idiot, a troll, or a hypocrite if you really believe your username.....probably all three:ugh: Your post smacks of SJS and a general lack of decency, evidenced by asking current CX pilots if "we've all had it easy throughout life". Quite the opposite actually, most of us have done the hard yards in GA and the Military, ie poverty and hardship, to gain the requisite experience necessary to even be invited for an interview with CX. Having done those hard yards, made it through the recruiting process, the training and upgrade process and being suitably remunerated (yes, I know:rolleyes:) we expect to be paid what we are worth. Yes, like a king. Show me a king who has anything like the responsibility we have every day?

If you can't see that, then bugger off till you can.:yuk:

The breathless, headlong rush here is vomit inducing to watch.:ugh::yuk::rolleyes: All the excuses I see paraded out just as pathetic, and your attempts to avoid and justify ignoring the advice by current, serving pilots living and working here are even more so.

You will be sorry, probably sooner rather than later, for accepting these T and Cs. So be it, just don't expect a shoulder to cry on.

Nosey

Mr Fusion

23rd May 2011, 22:25

What`s wrong with a 700 sqft flat?? I live in a 450 sqft 1 bed flat in London with my gf and we think its perfect size. So many people on this forum expect to live like a king from day one, have you all had it that easy throughout life? I would jump at the chance to even have an interview with CX and would be very happy with there T+Cs if offered.
I understand your reasoning. Perhaps like me you are currently working a dead-end regional job for minimal pay and zero housing allowance, health insurance, retirement, etc. So this offer compared to that sounds fantastic yes? :)

But the current "housing allowance" if you can call it that begins at HK$10K/mo and tops out at HK$36K/mo. as a Senior Captain 7. In 2007 the real housing allowance began at HK24K/mo. and the people I know there are already way past HK$36K/mo. It is a very large difference, and if you are looking to make a career of CX you have to look pretty far into the future and ask if you can raise a family comfortably on that compensation.

Mr Fusion

23rd May 2011, 22:30

Aiminghigh, your either an idiot, a troll, or a hypocrite if you really believe your username.....probably all three Your post smacks of SJS and a general lack of decency, evidenced by asking current CX pilots if "we've all had it easy throughout life". Quite the opposite actually, most of us have done the hard yards in GA and the Military, ie poverty and hardship, to gain the requisite experience necessary to even be invited for an interview with CX. Having done those hard yards, made it through the recruiting process, the training and upgrade process and being suitably remunerated (yes, I know) we expect to be paid what we are worth. Yes, like a king. Show me a king who has anything like the responsibility we have every day?

If you can't see that, then bugger off till you can.

The breathless, headlong rush here is vomit inducing to watch. All the excuses I see paraded out just as pathetic, and your attempts to avoid and justify ignoring the advice by current, serving pilots living and working here are even more so.

You will be sorry, probably sooner rather than later, for accepting these T and Cs. So be it, just don't expect a shoulder to cry on.

Nosey
Wow... So much hatred. Sounds to me like you're the one that needs a shoulder to cry on. :(

ChinaBeached

24th May 2011, 02:11

Fusion:
1) get a sense of humour;
2) the CX ship has not sailed at all. It is rapidly sinking into a sewered, putrid quagmire due the weight of the likes of yourself hoping, trying & crying like an immature naive child to make it so. That way these "standards" can be at the suitable entry level for your attitude, morality, maturity & skill level.

My ship hasn't sailed, far from it. I just refused, twice, to sail on the type of ship you want to be on.

And the others who have been "fast tracked"!! Sane people scoff at emails stating "you have been fastracked / selected for this great opportunity!". They are viewed as rip-off schemes & shonky scams generated from countries with loose laws. But if the same comes from CX? "Shortlisted"??! Yet none of you ask why....

Fusion, "trolls" are bottom dwellers living on scraps beneath bridges. Nah mate, that's for the likes of you believing that is a good lifestyle & existence. Those of us with a spine, integrity, experience & knowledge don't want the likes of you polluting our industry. Because until you drag the rest of it & us down to your level you will not be satisfied. Justify your pathetic reasoning as much as you can & will, but you will & always will be a septic scar on all that others achieved in the past at CX.

And still the droves of immbecilic posts will come asking questions insulting to the intelligence of what used to be called a professional airman. Call or email the damn flying school if you want to know which aircraft CX utilise in ADL! Look up the damn regs about license conversion!! Speak to a financial advisor about the contract at CX & a probable financial situation in 20+ years!! IDIOTS!!!

But least of all don't take the advice of ANYONE that with international airline experience at CX or other! It may detract from your naive short cited & ignorant short term plans. (Now look up "irony").

But of course, it's all FREE!!!!!!!!!!

Mr Fusion

24th May 2011, 04:41

ChinaBeached

24th May 2011, 05:37

Ha! You confuse anger with pitiful despair at the bottom feeders who want to keep digging lower.

You applied and FAILED a far far lower standard of interview than your predecessors!!

3000 hrs TT, 2500 hrs CRJ and kids with ZERO hours beat you into a job??!! :D:D:D

Attended one in HK a couple weeks back (never had an initial interview) and was turned down.

My background:
- USA Regional FO
- 3,000 Total Hours (2,500 in the CRJ7)
- Nuclear Engineering major (probably a dead give-away as to who I am )

Yes, a failured nuclear engineer & now failed iCadet. Hide all loose & sharp objects when depressed, my 2 cents worth.

For me, it was just another example of how my services are worth less than the generation before me: Shareholders demand continually increasing profit margins, so the front-line workers get squeezed more and more.

Thank you Capitalism. :middlefinger:

And yet you ASK / BEG to be treated like this?! What's more argue against the likes of us trying say the same damn thing! We know it, see it, and oppose it. You know it, see it & seek to be a part of it. Such integrity? Or more of a sell-out?

(Where's the middle finger emoticon?)

I & many thousands of pilots have one for you.

The negative comments related to this job are (understandably) posted by people who have a better job now, whether it be with Cathay or someone else. Good for them. But keep in mind you don't have their job: Criticism is easy to dish out when everything's good with numero uno.

So you "understand" the negative comments you say? Obviously you say one thing but do another. Maybe the personality psych testing revealed too much in the CX interview?

"Everything good with them" you say. No. The wannabe but failed sell-outs like you have & continue to ensure things will not be the same & our collective terms & conditions are lowered.

I almost laughed at the final interview when the HR rep said "okay, so let's say you take the job, and yeah it'll be fun and exciting for the first year or two..." FIRST YEAR OR TWO?!? Try the first half-hour into my first ID..) this job may not be for you.

And yet STILL you applied & chased it! And what's more tell others to do the same? You tell others to take what you laugh at. Do you have any character or integrity at all?

If (for some reason) they actually raise it again, and you don't get that raise, and there's better opportunities out there, tell them to f*** themselves and find a new job.

Ummm..... But wasn't it CX who told YOU "to f*** (yourself) and find a new job"????

Such wisdom. Join low & hope? "Better (LONG TERM) opportunities"? Dozens of posts highlighting them but laziness, ignorance, naivety & arrogance prevents anyone from looking.

So, there's the caliber of iCadet failure offering advice & direction. Fella, if you're going to granstand have the runs on the board first.

Voiceofreason

24th May 2011, 06:10

@DanBuster

So you're saying your own salary (forget the housing allowance for once, please) has not changed since Day 1 when you arrived in CX? If it has (and I am assuming it has), that means you now earn more than you did when you started. By the same token, I think we can assume that by the time these new joiners get to Fo and then Captain, they will also earn a little more than they do as SOs. Therefore, a 700sqft flat will not be their lot for life. It certainly isn't mine or any other LEP's.

True, very few live in 3-bed houses with gardens in Hong Kong. But for many, living in a city makes up for the lack of space. I choose not to commute because I like being in a city. In not many cities in the world could you afford that same house+garden lifestyle.

MrFusion

Still no-one has attempted to answer my simple question - is there a better deal out there? I've been looking (albeit from the perspective of one with some seniority), but haven't found one yet.

Yes, we all agree (and blimey has it been rammed down everyone's throat on here) that the package is not what it once was (for those able to join on expat terms). It's still a lot better deal than many out there.

Some have said go the low-cost cadet route - the choice between a) paying for their own training and then doing 6 sectors a day on 319s or 737s flying to some scummy airport in Eastern Europe, and b) having your entire training paid for, then flying long-haul on shiny jets isn't really a choice at all for many is it? If you think about it, and are honest with yourselves, if you were offered the same choice at the same age as these guys, wouldn't you have at least considered it?

Short-term approach, maybe, but who can guarantee a long-term career any more?

Mr Fusion

24th May 2011, 06:36

Ha! You confuse anger with pitiful despair at the bottom feeders who want to keep digging lower.
Umm... No. Pretty sure it's anger. ;)

You applied and FAILED a far far lower standard of interview than your predecessors!!
Yes I believe I established that when I said "... and was turned down." Thanks for clarifying that. :ok:

Yes, a failured nuclear engineer & now failed iCadet. Hide all loose & sharp objects when depressed, my 2 cents worth.
Suppose it's better than being a "failured" English speaker...? :p

And yet you ASK / BEG to be treated like this?! What's more argue against the likes of us trying say the same damn thing! We know it, see it, and oppose it. You know it, see it & seek to be a part of it. Such integrity? Or more of a sell-out?
You'll have to remind me where I said I would take the job if offered it. Oh yeah that's right... I didn't. :=

I & many thousands of pilots have one for you.
If the many thousands of usernames you've created on this website can muster it, I'll gladly take them. :p

So you "understand" the negative comments you say? Obviously you say one thing but do another. Maybe the personality psych testing revealed too much in the CX interview?
Ahh, so that's why I've been locked up in this rubber room for the last month. Can I leave now...? :{

"Everything good with them" you say. No. The wannabe but failed sell-outs like you have & continue to ensure things will not be the same & our collective terms & conditions are lowered.
You know what? You've inspired me to call recruitment and ask if they'll take me for my current $35K/yr salary. Or better yet: Minimum wage. Hell maybe I'll pay them to work there. Why didn't I think of this before?!? :p

And yet STILL you applied & chased it! And what's more tell others to do the same? You tell others to take what you laugh at. Do you have any character or integrity at all?
The ONLY thing I've told others to do is to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. While you, ChinaBeached and whatever other aliases you may have only offer criticism and misguided advice for people you've never met. :=

Ummm..... But wasn't it CX who told YOU "to f*** (yourself) and find a new job"????
Yup. And I did. Your point? :confused:

Such wisdom. Join low & hope? "Better (LONG TERM) opportunities"? Dozens of posts highlighting them but laziness, ignorance, naivety & arrogance prevents anyone from looking.

So, there's the caliber of iCadet failure offering advice & direction. Fella, if you're going to granstand have the runs on the board first.
Thanks Grandpa, I've learned a lot. Now let's get back to more pressing matters: Is it time for me to change you again? :p

...and game, set, match to ChinaBeached Nice Slam Dunk Sir
Nice pat on the back, but I don't think you can give yourself points...

... and this isn't a real game...

... Sigh. :rolleyes:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I'm SURE that's over with, :p , again if anyone would like the CPP Transition Final Interview gouge I wrote, feel free to PM me.
:)

Mr Fusion

24th May 2011, 06:40

Still no-one has attempted to answer my simple question - is there a better deal out there?
For what I'm looking for... Nope. But what I'm looking for is different than most people.

ChinaBeached

24th May 2011, 07:36

Well you got me on a typo! Odd that you found that one but nothing in my post from 21st May. Genius.

And my thousands of usernames? Clutching at straws now! Nah, just the one but have fun going back through those posts. It may be the most study you've done in years! (You may even find a typo to hang an argument on....)

But what I'm looking for is different than most people.

Nuclear engineer, guess not. iCadet, guess not. A lower paying job to handcuff yourself into even lower terms & conditions to arrogantly back slap yourself over & vainly screw over as many other pilots as possible? I'm sure with this demonstrated ignorant determination you persue failure with, you'll find one.

Can you please post your blog for all to see? Have watched "An Idiot Abroad", now some humour to pass the time: "An Idiot Who Soars"? How much wisdom can a failure offer the world? Consistency??

Lastly, yanky boy, say "buoy". Now say "buoyancy". Yeah..... Your grasp of English is an envy!!!!

Woof etc

24th May 2011, 07:38

They've already improved the package once. No where near enough, but they did improve it. So it works in practise too guys. Hold off joining until we are all on equal terms!

Yeah, and if we all stop buying gold maybe the gold price will go down again. Or if the Americans all got together and refused to drop the selling prices of their houses the market would recover! Duh.

It's called supply and demand, it's an essential component of a free market.

Voiceofreason

24th May 2011, 08:05

Let's try and agree somewhere first:

You are missing the main point to all this. First off, why does CX even need an icadet program on a degraded contract? They made BILLIONS in profit last year. If anything thing the conditions should be getting better for ALL OF US, not worse! I shudder to think what they will throw at us when a recession actually hits.

Agreed! More money is always good. But this iCadet programme started being advertised way before last year, even though they only recently improved it. And we did have a recession recently - not a long one, admittedly, but we didn't know that at the time. P.S. We also got a long overdue pay-rise recently, but I know that shouldn't be mentioned...

I am concerned that you, as a current CX pilot, think that the degradation of our future colleagues contracts is ok. This is a dangerous approach, as it puts your contract and my contract under heavy pressure to be reduced, and certainly not improved.

As I've explained before, my contract has just been improved, not degraded. Future contracts can't be degraded, as they don't exist yet. They are matching mine, in face. However, I am with you 100% when it comes to not wanting to see my fellow pilots' contracts degraded, and will be standing by you if it comes to that. But it hasn't yet.

How will you and I maintain or better our own contracts, when we have guys sitting beside us, doing the same job for much less?

Again, they won't be doing the job for less than me. The exact same, in fact. As I say above, though, if they attempt to reduce your contract to match ours, I'd be with you 100% - that's not something you signed up for.

Every guy that we convince to hold off and wait, puts pressure on CX to improve this crappy icadet contract to the original S/O terms and conditions. Have some pride in your profession and fight for it to be a viable long term career for us AND for the guys who wish to join us, don't just sit back and watch it rot away.

Sadly, this is where we disagree - this IS a long-term career for me, and for many others already here in the same boat. It does signal the death-knell for expatriate terms, no doubt, but as I've said repeatedly here, it's still a good package.

As I understand it, the company has to pay equal terms to everyone now that the possibility of race discrimination is out there. So, the company can do one of two things: 1) pay everyone expat terms, be they from HK or elsewhere, or 2) pay everyone into the future on local terms, whatever they are. I'd love 1), absolutely, but I've never imagined it was a realistic goal - the company was never going to pay me expat benefits when I'm not an expat. I'm also pretty sure that would mean the end of the cadet programme - why would they bother training people from scratch if they could hire who they wanted onto expat terms? Maybe no bad thing for someone like yourself, but someone like me wouldn't be here if that had happened. I preferred to have a job on local terms than no job at all. CX was the only realistic option into flying for me.

This whole argument, I think, boils down to your perspective: if you've joined on expat terms, you can't understand how anyone could want to join on less, and you fear for your own conditions. Totally understand - really I do. If, however, you've never had expat terms, you look and think: ok, it's not what it might have been had I been able to join a few years ago, but is it still a good package? To that, I, and many others, would say yes.

NoseGear

24th May 2011, 08:19

Fusion, you've been spanked, now take it like a man for once:rolleyes:

Woof, your just another one trying to justify the current T and Cs. Due to a lack of response, they HAD to increase them by adding the housing component. How long do you think they could wait if they had no one applying before they resorted to another increase? Supply is YOU, demand is from them...you take away your supply, they must increase the contract to attract you back. At the current rate, it would not be long at all, and I am talking weeks rather than months.

VFE

24th May 2011, 11:52

flyhardmo

24th May 2011, 13:10

Has anyone here mentioned that any cadet with +1500 hours gets to keep the remainder of their training allowance which, by a rough calculation, equates to (at worst) around 50'000GBP by my reckoning.

That sure goes some way to making up for the lack of housing allowance.

VFE.

And you'll get taxed on that. Has anyone told you that the remainder of the training allowance is what current Expat pilots make in a year from the housing allowance year after year. Thats not by my reckoning but a fact. Enjoy your one yr lump sum and suffer for the rest of your career. There is no justification to accept lower T&C based on short term sweeteners.

Mr Fusion I'm not going to highlight and quote from your posts but plain and simple you are an idiot. You defend yourself with stupid comments but you just make yourself look like more of an idiot. Did it occur to you that by accepting a cheap contract flying a RJ in the US is the reason why you are a still cheap pilot flying an RJ and you want to do the same at CX.. :ugh:

GTC58

24th May 2011, 14:47

Let's see the bigger picture. The International Cadet program combined with the Hong Kong Pilot Allowance (HKPA) is CX's long-term plan to slowly reduce bases. In 10-15 years more than 50% of all pilots will be on HKPA terms. A HKPA pilot doesn't cost the company more than a based guy, actually at the moment a HKPA pilot is cheaper considering whats going on with the bases at the moment.

I have no problem with CX paying less for less experienced applicants. However, let's face it being on different contracts and housing schemes divides the pilot group. While us on B-scale and expat benefits want to improve Pay, Rostering and working conditions the HKPA group will focus on improving housing as this would be the main financial gain for them.
As soon as HKPA pilots are representing the majority of the CX pilot group, they might see improvements to their HKPA while the now minority of pilots on expatriate terms will see no improvements on the items they see their priority, like pay for example. Similar what happened to the A-scalers.

That is probably the main reason why most CX pilots posting here opposing the ICadet program.

Most ICadet applicants probably haven't had much exposure to the airline industry and just see the positive like getting a sponsored pilots license, travel the world, flying a widebody jet etc.

I highly recommend for potential applicants to read the book "The 49ers - The True Story" from John Warham. Things haven't changed that much. At least you know then what to expect for the next 30 - 35 years at CX.

Mr Fusion

24th May 2011, 19:09

Well you got me on a typo! Odd that you found that one but nothing in my post from 21st May. Genius.
Thanks, I was quite proud of myself. :p

And my thousands of usernames? Clutching at straws now! Nah, just the one...
Just the one? Awww don't be modest, your other personalities just haven't told you about them yet. Take your meds like a good boy. ;)

Nuclear engineer, guess not. iCadet, guess not. A lower paying job to handcuff yourself into even lower terms & conditions to arrogantly back slap yourself over & vainly screw over as many other pilots as possible? I'm sure with this demonstrated ignorant determination you persue failure with, you'll find one.

Can you please post your blog for all to see? Have watched "An Idiot Abroad", now some humour to pass the time: "An Idiot Who Soars"? How much wisdom can a failure offer the world? Consistency??
Apparently more than someone with a serious case of multiple personality disorder. :rolleyes:

Lastly, yanky boy, say "buoy". Now say "buoyancy". Yeah..... Your grasp of English is an envy!!!!
Your grasp on racism is envious as well. How big of you! :ok:

Fusion, you've been spanked, now take it like a man for once:rolleyes:
Again with the spanking... I know some guys down the street that can satisfy that fetish for you boys. We'll make the safety word "iCadet" just for you! ;)

My shoulder's always available for you to cry on buddy. :{

Mr Fusion I'm not going to highlight and quote from your posts but plain and simple you are an idiot. You defend yourself with stupid comments but you just make yourself look like more of an idiot. Did it occur to you that by accepting a cheap contract flying a RJ in the US is the reason why you are a still cheap pilot flying an RJ and you want to do the same at CX.. :ugh:
Hello, and pleasure to meet you too. Thanks for the "idiot" comment right off the bat, always good to start the conversation on a positive note. :ok:

Hmm, so I accepted a "cheap" RJ contract job. I wonder what I was thinking OH YES there are no "good paying" RJ jobs in the USA! Obviously I should blame myself because I took the job...

... Nah, instead I should blame the real culprit: Corporate greed that has crunched the numbers and realized that aircraft incidents, accidents or even loss of life is acceptable risk compared to the profit saved on labor costs.

AND WE'VE COME FULL CIRCLE... :)

This is exactly what Cathay is thinking with their Cadet Pilot Programme and their double SO long-haul crew concept. Why waste another dime on labor when you've already invested in the safest, most advanced aircraft available, flying under the protection of a safe and reliable air traffic control system? Mmmmm I smell larger bonuses for management, yay! ;)

And unfortunately, this is the new reality and it is here to stay. If most Cathay pilots were that disturbed by the CPP package, they would put their jobs on the line instead of their mouths. But like USA legacy carriers and the regional airline industry they initially endorsed, they know not what they do...

Like yourself and everyone else in this thread, I don't like it one bit. However the difference is I wouldn't EVER discourage anyone to reject an interview or hold back an application. I'd rather see someone make their own informed decision rather than be bullied by a group of cowardly anonymous internet egos who may/may not be pilots. As I've mentioned before, I have no stake in this: I am only here to offer information.

...And feed the trolls.

BECAUSE IT'S FUN!!! And I know you're enjoying this as much as I am... right? ;)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL, FEEL FREE TO PM ME FOR A CADET PILOT (TRANSITION) FINAL INTERVIEW GOUGE. TAKE CARE AND BEST OF LUCK TO YOU! :ok:

ChinaBeached

25th May 2011, 01:10

Well you've sunk to a new low. Accusations of racism are pathetic & cheap even for the likes of you. You attempted to ridicule my typo as poor English skills & I gave evidence as to yours.You bought mention & reference toward my nationality & I did yours to compare & contrast English styles YOU raised argument about. In turn you fly the flag of racism when you have no argument.

You failed at your iCadet interview & boast of it to the height of arrogance of being able help others with your blog. Those of us with experience of CX, the interview processes, the airline culture over more than your pitiful & failed grasp, who value our profession & self worth who know from experience and FACTS the bigger long term situation are trying protect our industry from the sell-outs like yourself.

You draw on an arguement of "racism"! You want to highlight facts as you see them. And based on what? The fart of experience you had of HK & CX, least of zero widebody jet industry knowledge or experience? And what's more you seek to continually boast about sharing such self proclaimed knowledge, facts & experience??!!

I'd be taking the advice of the zero hour 18 year old who SUCCEEDED where a 3000 HR TT, 2500 hr RJ FO FAILED.

You haven't the capacity to accept another's point of view, particularly those whom you asked & tried to be colleagues with. Despite so many others telling you to shut up, you're wrong & your entire attitude reeks of shear single minded conceipt & arrogance, you continue.

You've reached the MDA, you've been told to go-around by your vastly more experienced colleague sitting beside you yet you know better & continue to descend, eh??!! 'Cause that's exactly what you're doing here. You'll argue into a CFIT due your arrogant nature.

Lastly, the safest, most advanced aircraft available, flying under the protection of a safe & reliable ATC

Wow! From what self-appointed grandeur to you speak from? The ATC over Calicut, India, Indonesia, polar nav & comms, NAT crossings when HF is unreadable, Afghanistan terrain experience & procedures...... Not to mention differing aircraft makes, models & the Boeing vs Airbus vs... debates of software design????? Or by chance is it you have ZERO experience of any of this but argue from a position of dogged arrogance in the hope of satisfying a mis-placed self belief??

When the aircraft fails, when ATC is wrong & makes mistakes, when pilots make mistakes it is the not the likes of yourself any of us want to be near in the sky. Because after all, you'd be right & all the world wrong: even into the ground which is a higher level than the sewer you seek to stoop down to.

uspilot

25th May 2011, 01:25

ChinaBeached

You go boy...:D:D:D:D

G_Orwell

25th May 2011, 10:27

Is this some kind of a debate competition? People applauding, taking sides and giving points? You should both accept the fact that you will never agree on ANY subject and move on, at least for the shake of this thread.

VFE

25th May 2011, 11:30

I think the moderators gave up on this one as a lost cause a looong time ago. :(

Does anyone know of a more mature forum (or thread) whereby potential candidates can actually discuss preparation for this scheme without the constant rhetoric from those against it?

Many thanks,

VFE.

Smell the Coffee

25th May 2011, 14:40

VFE, there is enough decent information within this (admittedly) long thread for you to get to the final stage...I speak from personal experience.

FWIW, the Cadet scheme is FAR from perfect, and CX, like the UK major airline I work for can and have shown utter contempt for their employees (I have just read the 49ers book) - having said that, short of someone like BA starting their old cadet scheme and allowing you to actually fly the aircraft from day 1, rather than this P2X rating b*llocks, there's not a huge amount out there which is much better.

To be honest, the industry is heading for the gutter anyway... :}

Em773ER

25th May 2011, 16:40

agreed, its true that there may not be much better cadetships out there... i just ask wannabes though, whats wrong with getting a job and self funding these days? with proper research and the right attitude, wannabes will realise that they are better off in the long run if they do the hard yards for a few years. the package really is far from perfect.

i used to be excited about this cpp and wanted to know EVERYTHING about CX (even about their escape routes, like why would i need to know them) and interview preparations! i probably learnt too much (from an icadet wannabes point of view), but it helped in making the informed decision to wait for the day direct entry opens again (i know its a long shot), rather than the day to get invited for stage 1 interview.

i suggest to anyone (i'm looking at you VFE), before investing your time (and possible money) into preparation for the interviews and what not, really do look at the facts and figures, and at least make an informed decision about going for this icadet program.

without the constant rhetoric from those against it?

yes there is a bit of garbage on this thread but honestly some of those who are "against it" have some good reasons to back it up. if it weren't for those against it to give us insight on the real $hit (rather than just the sugar coated cx bull$hit), this thread would still be filled with hundreds of naive wannabes asking to PM each other when they wana catch up at the headland and hold hands for stage 2. the point im trying to make is, constructive criticism should not be perceived just as bad words in these discussions. think hard and clear about everything before singing such a contract!

my 2cents

77W

Voiceofreason

26th May 2011, 01:21

to wait for the day direct entry opens again (i know its a long shot)

FWIW, I think there is no point hoping and waiting for this to happen. As far as I understand, expat terms are dead. They may improve the current local deal if they don't get the applicants, but don't hope for something that isn't going to happen.

So, whilst I appreciate you feel the current deal isn't right for you and you turned it down, effectively waiting for a better one - I'm just not sure you'll find one unless you go looking in the sandpit.

ChinaBeached

26th May 2011, 02:43

Orwell:
Point taken & I agree. But regrettably you have to fight fire with fire. Allowing a self-appointed omniscient guy preaching rubbish that he obviously has zero experience, knowledge or comprehension about is wrong. It influences others whereby overwhelming evidence that they are easily fooled or led.

VFE:
You have a "dream" & seek "the fairy tale". Well that's not "life". In life you have to slay a few dragons to get to climb the tower to get to the princess. Too many wannabes are trying to take the "free" express elevator to the tarted up, mutton dressed as lamb princess. What you'll find is a warted toad that you can't wait to kiss, but it will turn into an ugly, mean & greedy step sister taking advantage of you for the rest of your career. It's not all easy street as too many seek. That comes with the good AND the bad.

Voice:
So unlike your previous posts, you concede there are / could be better options out there? But as you note it takes people to get off their pretty & sweet comfort zone for a better LONG TERM prospect. GA offers OPTIONS when youve earned & own your own dedtiny as a result of thise hard earned credentials & experience. I'm talking 20-30 years long term which is a higher value than the age of many or most applicants. Hence this long term approach is too alien to them, and it isn't part of the first 5 pages of the fairy tale.

Voiceofreason

26th May 2011, 06:39

@ChinaBeached

So unlike your previous posts, you concede there are / could be better options out there?

Nope - my post said "I'm just not sure you'll find one unless you go looking in the sandpit." I never said there weren't any better deals, just that I hadn't found them!

To my mind, the deals in the sandpit may compensate (give) well, but take away a hell of lot more in other areas.

cx_773er

26th May 2011, 07:54

The way I see it is if someone decided to go down the self sponsored route and fund their own training they would:

be wasting more years of their life working in jobs they do not care about to earn money to fund enormously expensive training
Have to fund their training which will cost thousands upon thousands
Have NO gurantee of a job at the end of having invested their thousands unless they were lucky enough to land themself a spot on a mentored pilot program (although I guess this would only really be applicable to EU wanabees as right to work is required for the EU mentored programs)
Have a huge amount of debt to pay back and be on a crap starting salary which would only compound the problem (versus the starting salary at CX which is good!)
If this was a few years back people would have been saying the same thing, ohhh just go for the self sponsored route the market will improve. Well here we are at the moment and there is no improvement. If people decide to self sponsor it is more than likely they'll end up on the other end with the same market conditions. We're not headed for a boom anytime soon.

Em773ER

26th May 2011, 08:02

but take away a hell of lot more in other areas

i know this is veering off CX topic a little, but since you raised the point, i'm just curious as to what you mean by this, compared to CX. you can pm me if you prefer. cheers

ChinaBeached

26th May 2011, 10:27

Mousey:.... You mean even MORE vitamin D from the upper levels while on a polar route or that I just received arriving back from ICN only a few hours ago? I did receive my dosage from the RHS of a widebody that you will sell-out to observe from seat 3. But thanks to the likes of YOU I can be blasted with that same radiation for far less money. Pathetically you honestly believe you are contributing to aviation....

If you can't accept another's opinion least of all offer an educated (look it up) perspective then don't bother. I know, I know... removing the ear plugs & head from the sand isn't part of the CPP / iCadet checklist.

Konbini

26th May 2011, 10:32

hey guys,

an attempt to bring the thread back to its topic:

I applied early April having previously failed 2nd stage last year. Am still waiting.

VFE

26th May 2011, 10:52

Does anyone have any advice on preparing for the Reasoning Test other than the following...

Non-Verbal Reasoning Test (http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/tests/spatialtest.htm)

Many thanks!

VFE.

PS: ChinaBeached, nice try at trolling but some of us have been around here a while longer than you! ;)

ChinaBeached

26th May 2011, 11:42

Around longer than me? Congratulations. In my "short time" I have accumulated more PIC hrs in aircraft >5700 kg than you have TT, & am doing the job that in a widebody that 400 hr TT guys were selected for over yourself, as per your post:

So someone with a couple of hundred hours doing dog work in a spamcan gets a job over hundreds of experienced guys with jet time and OAA on their CV had nothing to do with it? If you expect me to swallow that then keep dreaming! LoL Congrats on getting an initial interview, nevermind the job mate - think yourself lucky you're not in my shoes and still instructing and well on the way towards the 3000 hour mark. I sadly don't have OAA on my CV but just a bundle of invoices for renewed IR's and PFO's over the past 5 years. All those 'contacts' nurtured haven't been able to help one jot either! Perhaps its time for me to move on in life methinks but I digress......

VFE.

So like a the guy on the previous page of this thread, you're so desperate you're willing to sell-out.

Having more "posts" doesn't make you more qualified, although you seem to think so. "Trolling"? As an illustrious instructor you should be able to see both sides to an argument. You can't. Get out of the training area for a change.

Em773ER

26th May 2011, 11:56

The way I see it is if someone decided to go down the self sponsored route and fund their own training they would:
be wasting more years of their life working in jobs they do not care about to earn money to fund enormously expensive training
Have to fund their training which will cost thousands upon thousands
Have NO gurantee of a job at the end of having invested their thousands unless they were lucky enough to land themself a spot on a mentored pilot program (although I guess this would only really be applicable to EU wanabees as right to work is required for the EU mentored programs)
Have a huge amount of debt to pay back and be on a crap starting salary which would only compound the problem (versus the starting salary at CX which is good!)

i am working full time and paying as i go. no debts what so ever...
its a financial bonus that i don't have a girlfriend/wife or kids or a mortgage, but yes its doable. i agree for some people its harder to pay as you go, but if the determination is there, you will make it work. relying on CX isn't the best option anyways, how do you know you will get offered?

p.s i care about my job very much, in fact i enjoy it and its a bonus that it can fund for training :ok: