Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

[boxerpilot]

For all the ppl that have been slated for the Stage 1 in Nov 21st in HKG, PM me and we can setup a chat to share thoughts and collective info as there are many valid points highlighted here, but it would be good to focus on the stuff needed for the guys actually making the informed decision to proceed with the interview.

To all the other gents or ladies putting up their thoughts, please keep them coming. It allows both sides of the coin to be viewed objectively.

To answer some of the posts wrt max age limits, at last check with CX HR, there are no hardline drawn and they would weigh your experience vs your routes of advancement.

I am currently residing in Singapore and if there are any other Singaporean candidates that has made it through or are in the process that is still following this thread, feel free to PM as well.

[flyboy_nz]

Quite a lot actually.

-Tax bill
-Provisional Tax bill
-Landline bill
-Mobile phone bill
-Internet bill
-electricity bill (a/c in the summertime is expensive!)
-water bill
-gas bill
-entertainment expenses
-staff travel expenses (CX will make a lot of money from you)
-management fees
-taxis/ferries/mtr expenses
-medicine expenses
-aviation medical renewel bill

...to name but a few. If you ever plan on having a family there is a lot to add on to this list!

That 45k will be eroded very, very quickly just on your day to day living in HK.

:ouch: Well, that pretty much answers all my queries about CX. This is not what I ever thought CX would be like. So, I guess I am better off in the long run building my hours on a regional and then applying as a DEFO. Will keep a close eye on this thread and but thanx for the replies. For now, turbo-props it is.

[captain.weird]

Hi there CX-A330, did you pass stage 1? What kind of questions did they ask? Something new which aren't here on the thread? Which plane was discovered on the table?

Thanks mate.. you can PM me too.. Wish you luck with stage 2/3

[theboat]

Both China Beached, both. I think you'll find both principles are as well thought out as your arguments you troll!!!! I think you don't even work for Cathay, I think that's why you spend all your time in a wannabe forum.

[boxerpilot]

Just got the details on my Stage 1 Interview and would like to see if anyone here has gone through the Transition Training Programme(14 weeks) Stage 1/2 Interview process?

From CX HR, there are only 2 Interviews Stage 1 and 2. No JKI issued as that as well as the WOMBAT Psychomotor test will not be required. Other than that nothing else was much said.

Only forms that needed to fill were a medical questionnaire and record of flying hours and License details.

Any guys who have been through it, much appreciated if you have some info on the interview process thanks.

[junglelander]

Anybody have experience with this website? It's asking for Secondary Education Results. It's been over 10 years since I was in high school in the US and I don't remember courses and grades. Anybody have any pointers?

[soundbite]

I was lucky enough to still have my High School Certificate. I don't think they're interested in your marks. Try your Department of Education archives to see if you can retrieve your certificate, there may be a small fee involved.

[ChinaBeached]

Boat....you really are only showing your complete lack of intelligence, ability to read, research and any form of common sense.

I think you don't even work for Cathay, I think that's why you spend all your time in a wannabe forum.

And you got that information from where? The many times I've written that I interviewed for CX > 3.5 years ago and was successful for the DESO T's & C's, was put on hold until eventually offered the insulting iCadet package and turned it down - TWICE - as so many others in my situation did? (The same insulting package that the likes of you see as an "opportunity" because you see a GA or regional airline demanding you meet the prerequisites of a frozen ATP/ATPL as too hard but CX will accept far, far, far lower standards of ZERO flying experience or credentials). So genius, you're right. I don't work for CX and never said I did. Unlike you and so many others I know what I'm worth, respect my colleagues and have self respect. A wannabe you say?? As a result I am an FO on a widebody with a career path without ever having to sell my soul (and earning a better base salary than CX B scale).

Troll? Heard that one before as well. So, once again for the slow boats out there: A troll is considered an ugly creature living beneath dingy bridges in remote towns, living off scraps and scaring the local community. Now, replace dingy bridge with 400 sq ft apartment, replace remote town with outer reaches of HK, replace scraps of food with 2 min noodles and replace scaring the local community with actively bringing down the standards, terms and conditions of an airline.... Seems like troll is more apt elsewhere. You are the perfect ignorant stooge CX are seeking. If you're lucky Capt NB can invite you on his next TV ad promoting CX's great values (you won't be paid but you can strut about CX city). Capt (loose term) RH will just be thanking you for adding to his massive bonuses.

Fly_boy: good luck with your career. You have made the right decision. It will be harder than you first imagine but the rewards will be 10 fold in career and financial security.

[theboat]

I'm logging that as a bite troll. I bet you'll bite again you wannabe.

[soundbite]

Troll:
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

Although you've created a new definition for the word to suit your argument, this is the one people are familiar with.

I love how you've convinced yourself that you did Flyboy a favor. In your twisted little world, you've saved another soul from certain purgatory, directing him away from the obvious goals he had in front of him because Cathay didn't agree with YOU. Hang your head, pal. You did no one a favor except yourself.

People, ask yourself the credibility of your source. ChinaBeached has created havoc on similar forums, spattering drivel based on his own opinions and self-professing righteous views on integrity and respect. They are NOT the views of a happy Cathay employee (and yes I know several happy Cathay employees), merely the views of someone who was thrown in the waiting pool and has enough of a chip on his shoulder that he spends his days posting on a thread of an airline he's not even a part of:ugh:.You simply didn't cut the mustard, China. Why not enjoy your wide-body FO experience in your current airline. Live in the present, not the past. What expertise do you think you're imparting to people? You haven't lived in Hong Kong, you haven't worked for the company, and you haven't gone through the entire hiring process. These are the things people on this thread are interested in, not the contorted views of someone working for a DIFFERENT airline on how poor it is.

Let qualified people post here.:oh:

[theboat]

Well said soundbite. I am not with Cathay or ever likely to be, but I am fed up with ChinaBeached and his cohorts talking b*****ks on this forum trying to put people off joining. It's pathetic. I've given up on reasoned argument, so I'm simply going to follow him around the forums winding him up. He'll claim it's not working, but I bet it is.

[ChinaBeached]

....integrity and respect. They are NOT the views of a happy Cathay employee....

You're right. So very, very right!

Where did I convince myself I did Fly_boy a favour? I pointed out FACTS that you know nothing of. He made his own mind up like a big boy. Try it. He'll be in a FAR better professional postion as any iCadet will be in 5 years and either a jet FO or Capt in 10-15 years. A hell of a lot faster than a CX iCadet, by then on better money than a CX iCadet and fulfilling a dream that didn't involve screwing over the industry or colleagues. The guy will earn respect. The likes of you can never by what you believe is OK to do.

chip on his shoulder

Never denied it. I worked & studied my ar$e off for >4000 hrs to earn the right to dream of a CX interview only to see it stolen away by shear greed defended by ignorant, arrogant, self-deserving brats who as yet haven't had their pituitary gland spark up yet. So when reading what naive and pathetic kids type on this forum of "GA is too hard" and self righteous attitudes that slap the face of pilots who stand for something, it pi$$es most off. Your breed is slur on aviation and will never, can ever be a credit. You bring the industry down and not up. They are FACTS.

You simply didn't cut the mustard, China

How do you figure? I passed the CX interview, sim and selection criteria that was to a FAR, FAR, FAR higher standard than "So what do your parents think of you wanting to be a pilot?" [actual question asked to some iCadet applicants]. Again, I was offered the job twice and can sleep at night in that I turned it down twice. I have done, did and am doing what you want to do. Soundbite, your greatest challenge or achievement has been in locating your HSC. Wow.

You haven't lived in Hong Kong, you haven't worked for the company, and you haven't gone through the entire hiring process

a) How would you know? How do you know where I'm sitting RIGHT NOW? (hint, google Oo La, Sheung Wan)
b) Is it that obvious when I said I turned down the offer (twice) that you computed I don't work for CX? Watch out for that IQ test at CX.....
c) So I turned down the offer to work for CX that was offered me having passed the interview that you say I didn't do? No wonder you lost your HSC.....

Let qualified people post here

See, that's a tricky one. By "qualified" do you mean the CX definition of zero experience, zero aviation credentials, zero knowledge or zero backbone? Or the "qualified" definition of those who have studied, sat and passed the entire CX interview process, know HK, knows CX as an airline and culture, knows the iCadet package & complete T&C's, & with international widebody airline experience? You'll have to dig deeper on that "qualified" terminology because when that term is so putrid and muddied by sell-outs and corporate greed digging to determine new lows, things get confusing for kids like you & your new bed-pal when sprouting a term that you have no idea about.

but I am fed up with ChinaBeached and his cohorts talking b*****ks on this forum trying to put people off joining.

Then don't ask your stupid, ignorant and childish questions. Then when you get the answers you asked for but they upset your self righteous, self deserving needs & pre conceived ideas, you throw your toys from the cot (or PS2 at the wall), & seek an argument by attempting to use a word alien to you: "qualified".

Live in the present

I am!! I just bought an (investment) holiday apartment in Bali with the money I earn as a professional pilot!!! I'd like to share the experience & joy with you, but that would be mean as it is something you'll never get to enjoy to do on an iCadet salary. This "now" is GREAT! Hell, you'll be lucky to afford a 600 sq ft apartment in HK after 15-20 of shear saving if calculating CPI, the iCadet salary, allowances, etc. Yep... This really is a good feeling...!!!!!

"Bollocks"? Strong word! I see your parents disabled the kiddy protections on the computer.... Anyway, find but ONE of mine or other people's arguments about the iCadet package, standards, T&C's that are "bollocks" as you say. You kids come back with nothing but empty denials and empty accusations that we're all wrong and you with your "qualified" comments are right. Again, you're just the stooge that CX wants and attracts. So, join. Enjoy. But NEVER complain about the job you asked for nor the disdain the wider pilot body has for the likes of you.

Follow me around? Have fun. Most kids in your situation would be either seeking a job flying, studying or working. You choose the internet to blow your nose on. Smart. But again, CX will take you when you haven't even the balls to study for your ATPL/ATP that GA or regional operators require.

Join CX. Up to you. Just reep what you sow and don't be surprised by the number of pilots you meet who will walk away once you meet them. It happens now.

[theboat]

Kid? Ha ha, you're a dick ChinaBeached. That's a fact!!!

[soundbite]

I know, right?

Isn't it clever how he segments my quotes to sound like I'm agreeing with him? I feel sorry for him, I really do.

[ChinaBeached]

Stevop21: true.

These two clowns with their newly formed alliance seek to discredit the arguments and points of view from people with first hand experience & knowledge, etc of the questions they seek answers to. When they don't get them in either the form or result they need they wish to argue, but without a standpoint or supportable opinion. They argue from what point of view? From what facts? Saying "You're wrong" or "I disagree" without backing it up is useless, but more over petty & infantile. Again, it shows the level of CX iCadet wannabe.

They make accusations about me that they see as reevaluations: "I don't even think he works for CX!". That just shows their level of research and how much they've read of this thread before engaging foot-in-mouth.

I have been shown on a few occasions where I've been wrong on this forum by people like "voice of reason", & have readily admitted as well as thanked him for it. Anything that contributes to the better understanding is beneficial for both sides of the equation. But these idiots put forward zero argument & zero facts to defend their standpoint of just wishing people like me would stop trying to stop others from join CX.

This forum is about people asking questions, points of view being swapped and opinions shared. I am completely guilty for letting my disdain be shown for the new breed of despicable lows CX has sunk to - no denial - as well as the type of spineless character who defends them and seeks to contribute to it. I back it up with reason and facts. It is the people that haven't the fortitude, knowledge or just simple reasoning to defend their argument that brings any argument down to a gutter.

Ask questions. Have a lively debate but do it from a position where it can be defended. Otherwise the only thing shown is ignorance and naivety.

[soundbite]

...points of view from people with first hand experience & knowledge, etc...
Let's be clear here China. YOU DON'T WORK FOR THE COMPANY!!! People are asking for advice from the inside. What makes you think you're eligible? Anyone who listens to you needs to have their head examined.

Stevop21 tried to get the train back on track, and all you did was acknowledge him with one word and continue your rant. Tell me who's despicable?

I'm going to look elsewhere for my info, this thread has all but dried up and I've lost interest with the likes of ChinaBeached hovering around like a dirty smell. Thank heavens there are people like him in the world to make the rest of us look good.:D

[flynhigh]

People are asking for advice from the inside...

My friend the problem is you guys don't listen to people who are INSIDE...its been said over and over...Be careful what your getting into...Good luck with ever you decide to do...its your life...But Please guys don't be shocked to see next yr when CX start hiring DEFO...than your upgrade to JFO will be 6+ yrs:ugh:...All the best.

[tchiu2003]

so after reading the interview guidelines from Pilot Aptitude Training Systems: Cathay Pacific (http://www.******************/?page=Cadetship/CathayPacific), it seems like there are 4 stages in the interview


However, in previous posts, I see people mentioning about interviews 1a, and 1b!

Are there two parts to the first interview? And if so, what do you do in the first interview? (1A)

Thanks so much!

[theboat]

People ask questions, and some people answer them honestly. That is appreciated. ChinaBeached however is a self serving arse hole who likes the sound of his own voice. He likes explaining what words mean. Does he know what dobber means?

[ChinaBeached]

I answered them honestly, as do many others. Your type just don't like the honest answers you receive.

You think I like the sound of my own voice? HA! Boat, you started a thread that went for 8 posts and FOUR of the posts were by YOU! (I'll help you out: 50%!!!)
(http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/347758-advice-allowances.html#post4473130)

Many others on the same side have posted far more on this thread than me but all mostly with a similar opinion. You just don't like the confrontation of being told to back up your ignorant & naive beliefs by someone like me. Nor my open undeniable dislike for what a slur on aviation this CEP is and for those defending it.

Self serving? (A bit of laughter, yes....) Moreover, it's a disgrace what the likes of you defend as justifiable.

No, don't know what a dobber is by your definition. Don't care. If it is as screwed up as your definition of "integrity" and "qualifications" then it really is of no use bothering. But I will guarantee and bet it is a some UK military term you good 'ole chaps use in relation to buggering?

As yet you've offered not one statement to back up but one of your denials or comments. Not one. You've thrown a few choice names my way as your means of argument, but that's about it.

Questions are asked about the CX interview process, the company structure, the iCadet contract, the money, allowances, and so on.... ALL of which I have first hand experience of as a successful candidate. But again, you just want to pick & choose the answers that suit.

Stick to trying to define your own allowances and knowledge of your "JSP 752" that you admit are too difficult for you to understand. (I had a read & can see where the lack of pictures had you lost. And no, I won't do your homework for you). The CX iCadet scheme is far easier but probably precisely the same rear guard buggering that the UK military provides. It's right up your ally:- literally.

[Cpt. Underpants]

...and ChinaBeached WINS

[Trying_]

Anyone got any info on next round of Australian interviews and the experience of those getting interviews?

[theboat]

Ha ha, bite. Prick.

[AQIS Boigu]

@ The Boat... as I current CX pilot I never want to share a flight deck with you; I rather have CB with me on board.

You need to learn how to listen - an attribute every CX pilot needs to have before joining otherwise you will not make it far in this company...

[theboat]

AQIS that won't be a problem, I can assure you!!!

[theboat]

Oh dear Dan Buster! When attempting to suggest someone is low calibre perhaps you should spell it correctly!

[theboat]

Ha ha, fair enough.

[flyboy_nz]

ChinaB, Capt and Dan have presented a side of the argument that you don't hear of too often. Most people including myself are too happy to say we got a job with Cathay.

The reason I can afford to not bother with CX is because I have another offer with better pay package. Most guys here don't have that luxury. For most people something is better than nothing. If I was in that position, an offer from CX would be more like everything or nothing.

[yep_ok_whatever]

Chinabeached: Am I correct in assuming you work for Cathay? I am assuming you do by your previous posts, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I can understand that you are giving your thoughts on the Cadet scheme and that of course you think it is a blight on the industry so to speak.

What I can't understand is the level of distaste that you have for it and the cadets who choose to follow this path?

Maybe you could elaborate on why you feel so strongly about this subject matter? I for one hope that you do not take with you to the flight deck the bitterness you bring to this forum. It would be completely unproffesional, in bad taste and quite frankly rude and arrogant. But I'm sure you wouldn't, you dont have the veil of anonymity up the front that you have sitting in Oo Laa all by yourself posting on PPRune.

In regards to the amount of money you will take home or how long you will be an SO for etc. It all is COMPLETELY dependant on your current circumstances! If you are in your thirties with children and currently a lawyer earning tons of cash, then it is quite possible this may be detrimental to your finances. However if you want to fly then do it, and just understand the risks. If you are a twenty two year old with no long term partner or dependants, then hell this could be a great opportunity for you.

Case by case basis...

[boxerpilot]

More info for guys going on TT and I am not sure if it applies to the Advanced (30 weeks guys) too.

The interview process consists of two stages: initial and final.

Initial consists of a multiple choice tech quiz (ATPL level) and an interview (general and tech).

Stage two consists of a similar interview, a group exercise, computer based testing, medical and sim training (45 mins each) and sim assessment in the classic.

Anyone who may have done the ATPL level tech MCQ pls provide info if possible and any guys done the sim check yet??

Cheers

[rodrigues]

Any idea what the issue with the online application system is? Has been down for a few days now

[ground to air]

Hi everyone,
Would really enjoy hearing from anyone who knows what kinda of reasoning test they are using now for stage one, I have heard it is no longer Wombat, but now matrix. Could anyone comfirm this or provide any info on this matter.

GTA

[yep_ok_whatever]

Wombat or Matrix, please let me know if you find out via a pm or other means. Cheers

[ChinaBeached]

Fly_boy, I disagree.

You'll find from the vast majority of defenders of the iCadet package come from those who see GA or a regional airline as "too hard" for any number of reasons. Or, they feel a massive sense of entitlement to not ever need to gain experience or qualifications: and this is precisely what CX have set up. As such CX can pay the disgraceful insult that they offer. Pilots with the qualifications that used to be required treat it as they should....a slap in the face of standards and all they worked for. There will always be one or two exceptions who have their own reasons....

You have an option because you made that situation available to yourself. Others do not want for, try for or care for anything other than satisfying their own Shiny Jet Syndrome at any cost to their integrity, long term future or the profession they insult. Most see no other option because they refuse to look: "too hard".

I have swapped numerous PM's with guys who agree and disagree with my point of view. Unlike some, they had the intelligence to argue from an informed point of view, or genuinely wanted to know why guys like me disagree with it so much.

Hours built away from the iron curtain of CX are golden. You will own your hours and therefore destiny.

1) The P2X rating is not recognised outside of the CX/CAD umbrella, therefore neither can the hours be. If for whatever reason (family emergency, poor health, hate HK, hate CX, fall in love...whatever) you want to or have to leave HK no airline, not even a GA light twin company will want you. You have no recognisable hours. Add to that the Forgivable Loan (call it what it is, a "BOND") that has to be paid back if leaving < 6 years.... And you pay tax on that bond. You have to pay CX back every cent they "gave you" (HA!!!) So, you have to pay the bond plus the tax as that is non refundable, therefore you pay MORE than what you were "given"! (Aren't CX nice!!!! And we hear so often idiots sprouting, "but it's free!!") But if you stay.....
2) The Housing Allowance is not factored to CPI. So, then $10k in year 1 = $7,800 in year 2 (as per 22% increase last year alone, do some min research). Say the following year it's only 8%, then the next year 5%, then the next year 15%.... Just by this random but very conservative example (but not unrealistic) your $10k is now worth $5,795. So, eventually you become a Capt and get what a 3rd year SO under CoS08 gets: $36k. That $36k will be potentially worth LESS than the original $10k you started with some 20 years before!!!!
3) Savings and retirement..... Factor probable family, kids, single income supporting the family, bills, etc.... Sorry. This package is dirt. You will not retire comfortably. As a single person alone try to calculate how long it will take to save just for the deposit of a $5 million HKD apartment (ie, approx 550 sq ft in Sheung Wan)....??!!! A wife & 2 kids in that space?? Yeah, this "opportunity" keeps getting better...!!!!!

If you own your own hours you are not chained to a company with a history of disregarding the black & white terms and conditions of your contract, and under a legal system that also doesn't care. You own your own destiny and can apply to the vast range of airlines who are hiring pilots for DEFO on A320 or 737 with as little as 500 hrs TT. People will ask me where these jobs are. Again, there lies the stupidity. I don't even need a job yet I read aviation journals and web sites and they are staring at anyone with an ounce of common sense right in the face. And they pay a damn site better than the iCadet package as well as letting you touch the controls!!!

I'll bet not one of the iCadet advocates has read John Warhams book The 49ers - The True Story.

[yep_ok_whatever]

If the people slating the CX scheme could chime in here that would be great.

What I would really be interested in hearing from you, other than, the vast majority of us are ill-informed and delusional is what other legitimate long term career options are available to those with little cash to their names?

I understand that working an 80 hour week so you can afford three hours of flying a month is admirable, but to me, I feel this is working hard rather than working smart.

I also understand the negatives of the scheme but still feel that overall it is a good deal. It expediates training, provides the security of employment for three plus years (allbeit not increasing salary) and all the sandwiches I could dream for.

Being completely realistic here, I do feel that those who say SO's will be living in abject poverty are overexaggerating. I used to live in Hong Kong working as a junior architect. I was on 16,000 per month. Pretty good money compared to others who had just finished a degree and were starting their career in HK.

I shared an apartment and enjoyed my time out in expat restaurants and bars as well as local haunts. I admit I didn't save anything, but I managed fine. What everyone has to realise is that the offer is very much dependant on the individual. I would not have even considered anything of the sort if I had three children, a sick mother and two disabled pets.

Please keep in mind that although the offer is substandard to you and what was given to you in the past, it no longer is relevant. You are working with a different contract that is not on offer to us. The good ol' days will not be back. And they won't be back, not because we accept lower salaries and T's and C's but because it is the nature of the beast.

You used to bang your head against a brickwall when your parents told you they had to walk a hundred miles in the freezing snow to buy a potato for dinner. We now do the same when you talk about your contracts and how glorious those days were and how we are destroying the company by accepting these T's and C's. You tell us not to accept them and work somewhere else. If you don't want us to accept these T's and C's because it devalues you and your position, it may be time for you to move on rather than asking us not to join. We don't have a problem with you, it appears, you have a problem with us.

This is my opinion and I also (whether you agree or not is fine) believe that there is some jealousy associated with how relatively easy the icadets have it compared to what some of the GA guys have done. Which I think is completely acceptable. I'd be peeved off to in some respects.

Now, feel free to cut me to shreds...

[hihi]

For those interested in the cadet program; do your homework. Thoroughly. Then some.

CB can be pretty abrasive (believe me, i know) but he does have a point. Good luck with your interviews - although you'll have my sympathy if you do make it through. Just an FYI, the cadets who qualified in 2010 accepted a living allowance (for their career!) of 0HKD per month. The 2011 cadets were offered $10,000 HKD per month. Any guesses as to what the direct entry pilots are being paid?

Know what you are signing up for, and know what you are forfeiting in the long run.

Good luck!

[ChinaBeached]

Ha.... Yes, admittedly over abrasive at times. :ok: (I trust all is progressing well).

whatever: No, we are not referring to the glorious good 'ole days. We are referring to what an airline pilot's value is now and should be truly worth. This CEP has seen a devaluation of some 60% - all at a time of record profits. That does not even make sense to rational people. So, therein lies the problem. Too many of you see this as a "great opportunity" because you refuse to acknowledge what it really is: a lowering of standards to a despicable level (many will also argue safety) to attract those who formally could not apply & therefore lower remuneration all for one purpose: GREED.

Walk 100 miles in the freezing snow to buy a potato for dinner? If that potato was the best potato in the world, had the best nutrition in the world & would feed my long term needs then, yes it would be worth the walk. But now you guys are offered an artificially sweetened, artificially scented lollypop that is advertised as cheap, easy and accessible, so you all line up and grab it. All the while others warned, and warned and warned you.

And why? Because most have little to no experience, little to no credentials and even less desire to accept what others tell you. If you did then you would appreciate what a pilot of a (widebody) jet is worth. They see $45k HKD a month as a "good opportunity" compared to what they are used to. Again, CX have you hook, line & sinker....all the while laughing as the decision makers line their pockets with the naivety of so many suckers. When the realities of the LONG TERM kick in then guy not shackled to CX will be far, far better off both as a career airline pilot and financially: in the LONG TERM.

whatever... You mention job security. You obviously have not botherd to read Warham's book The 49ers - The True Story. Job security at CX? That is an oxymoron and laughable if not so sad to be true. You should not tout loose statements that are completely wrong.

When a kid is used to earning nothing then anything looks attractive. You think CX don't know this? The devil is in the detail, not to mention the slight of hand of the magician. Too many believe an illusion is a long term reality.

[yep_ok_whatever]

ChinaB:

This is the point I am trying to make. You say that CX has devalued wide body pilots to a despicable level. All I am really trying to find out is, what other options are out there for people with no money to their names?

Is it fair to assume you can only become a pilot by spending $US 80-100K? And that if you do not have the money nor the perserverance for ten years, then you should not be a pilot?

As an aside, I do understand about the 49'ers, although I haven't read the book. But what I am reffering too is that if CX decided to lay an icadet off in their first year as SO I would be damn sure that the forgiveable loan does not have to be repaid. The 49'ers was also a one off incident and to my knowledge hasn't been a reoccuring nightmare. Again, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I do think that it is unfortunate the T's & C's regarding housing have changed so much so that it leaves old cadets in a poorer position (no pun intended).

In some way I do hope that the other noobs out there appreciate your info despite the abrasiveness, otherwise we would not have a devils advocate or a sounding board. So thanks in advance, and apologies for any future mud slinging I may do.

[bangout]

Any chance we can have a separate CX bashing thread aside one that is of some use? The issues have been well documented, and I think most people are now in a position to make an informed decision from the previous 171 pages of the same argument.

Oh and Dan Buster, comment 3393, think before you speak. What a patronising and flippant comment. Advice if fine (however much it may have dragged) but you are in no position to judge a potential iCadet's intellect.

And for God's sake, don't turn this post into yet another excuse for an argument. I won't be the first and I'm sure I wont be the last to request that we pull this back onto topic.

[flyboy_nz]

Yes, the 45k package looks good on paper, but the living costs is what got me worried. My goal is to invest in real estate and the earlier I can start, the better it would be. So, I would rather have a flying job that gives me plenty of savings than worry about big shiny jets at the moment.

CB, I did read in one of your earlier posts that you did the CX interview for DESO but declined it because they offered you the icadet scheme. How is the DESO scheme different? (No info. available on the website and some of the other posts are too old).

[ChinaBeached]

It was CX CoS08 (Conditions of Service, effective 2008). In short, the housing allowance after just 3 years is what an iCadet will eventually get only when they become Capt (after 15 to even 22 years, as per the AOA published figures). Under CoS08 after approx 5 years the housing will be around $60k HKD, and grows to around $80k+ as seniority & time in company grows. (Someone like DB could give the precise numbers and time scales). The CoS08 housing is factored to CPI so it is "net gain neutral", ie it does not erode.

To quote the exact words told to us when we arrived in the board room for the introductory speech when referring to the housing allowance:

"CX believe we should pay you the housing allowance that we do so you do not suffer a loss of lifestyle by moving to HK to work for us"

Obviously they do not believe that anymore. So, an iCadet housing allowance topping out at $36k NOT factored to CPI vs $80k+ that IS factored to CPI?? Multiply that over a career = a damn insult.

If your goal is to invest in real estate then you will need to have approx. a 30% deposit for a property in HK (part of it can be as low as 10%). I used a 550-600 sq ft apartment to base my calculations on that will cost around $5 million HKD. (Ball park figures used, but relatively accurate). Do the maths based on incomings, outgoings, tax, cost of living, an eroding base salary due part of your HKPLA not factored to CPI, etc.... Again, LONG TERM the deal is a pitfall & and an insult. Your monthly salary & therefore your capacity to save erodes & is not recoverable as per the terms of the contract.

Too many or most wannabes posting here do not consider any of these "details".

[Thierry121]

@CB, I've followed this thread for some time and for some reason your comment about housing not linked to CPI really hit home (like a light bulb moment), I've just realised how difficult it would be in future to save and to potentially raise a family. It's really has given me some perspective and laid to rest some of my lingering doubts about the program.

Also out of curiosity, because of the way CX like to change CoS and not adhering to contract agreements, wouldn't that mean any future potential cadets could have their contracts mix and matched as they please? e.g. housing allowance removed from their current contract?

[Turbine Overheat]

A maximum of 3 months on any contract in Cx.
As proven previously, as short as 1 day.

[ChinaBeached]

Thierry: as per DB's post: YES. Your contract is a loose "guide" at best & is treated with the same respect they respect their pilots with - disposable & replaceable at a whim. Toilet paper has more use & purpose in their eyes. Not my words, but proven facts.

Just as Davis' "Handling the Big Jets" & "How to Pass the CX Interview" by Capts X, Y & Z are considered but two compulsory reading & study materials for the CX interview, John Warham has written a book of equal if not of greater importance that must be considered compulsory reading: "The 49ers - The True Story".

One's past behaviour is the strongest indictor of one's future behaviour. Why do you think CX ask you questions like, "Tell us about a time when....."? CX have on more than one occasion forced pilots onto a new CoS contract of lesser terms and conditions with a "SIGN OR BE FIRED" approach. At the very least those who refused to sign lost positions such as training Capts, or basings, or basing opportunities, etc.

So what if you can recite the name of the step-son's nephew who once had a beer with Frank Whittle or the mathematical theorem from first principles the obstacle clearance calculations in your CX interview? If you don't know how the company you seek to work for treats its employees & the true value of your contract then what's the point?

But then consider what these management types (pilots and others) have received... Nothing but massive pay rises and bonuses at the expense & slaughter of the pilots (& FA's, etc) remuneration packages.

This iCadet program is set up as a money grab: nothing more, nothing less. Those who see it as a "great opportunity" refuse to see or appreciate these FACTS, let alone read the truths that cannot of been written or published if they were not 100% true for fear of legal action.

READ WARHAM'S BOOK, "THE 49ers - THE TRUE STORY"!

People do more reading & research before buying a plasma vs LCD flatscreen than they do about a company, a company culture & contract that they are considering giving their next 30-40 years to. Ask yourself, has the company over time ever increased pilots T&C's or actively pursued by bullying & immoral means & methods to successfully reduce them?

[boxerpilot]

Is the 11th edition most current??

[yep_ok_whatever]

No one has yet attempted to answer my question which is...

"what other options are out there for people with no money to their names?"

[ChinaBeached]

Go and get a job - any job. Dig holes as a labourer or work behind a bar, or do whatever to save a few dollars. The best job you could possibly land would be working in a hanger or at an airline Ops dept or for a flying school in any capacity so you're at least in the right environment. Aviation is your best field - naturally. Take out a loan to finish your training or to use to hit the road to look for a flying job. Do not quit and do not give up. All the while STUDY, STUDY, STUDY. That costs nothing. That's why I said in the short term it is damn hard but in the long term you are miles ahead professionally & financially.

That is your answer.

The jobs WILL NOT come to you and there will be more than a few knock-backs. Too many sit on their keyboard & moan about being unemployed but don't hit the road and knock on doors. Emails are but one impersonal and static means. A face to face introduction, CV in hand accompanied by handshake seems to work wonders, for any job.... Go figure.

You may have to leave home or leave your immediate country. So? You want to be an "international" airline pilot so what if you have to pack your bags & live elsewhere for a period of time to make your dream a reality?? I did it as have 1000's of pilots before me. No big deal if it is where your heart is or this "passion" so many iCadet wannabes speak about yet don't show or back it up.

Pilots did this for decades prior to soul-selling "iCadetships" being introduced. But now such a thing is deemed "too hard" by too many when there is a cheaper, nastier and "easier" way. We've all repeated the saying "If it looks too good to be true" or "Nothing in this world is free" yet those same people advocate this CEP.

[brisdude]

I put a post on page 168 about my thoughts as an ex CX kid working for the airline.

Many others have taken the time to help those interested. To have a tag "CXA330" or whatever shows you are determined to work for CX but not do any favors for your industry.

Not to pick on that guy but take your integrity before anything else, listen to those that work there and have a greater understanding then anyone with SJS.

Make an informed decision based of what information you can find, not what information you prefer to choose.

REMEMBER - The old "CX are the best of the best" line doesn't work when they take anyone willing to sign a piece of paper.

What CX was in 1985, 1995, 2000 - 2005 (Buy "The 49ers") - must read, 2012 are completely separate places.

If your sole goal in life is to fly a widebody with no take offs of landings and wear a nice uniform then you are in the wrong industry and will not get any respect out of those that you will share a career with (have fun trying to find someone to have a beer with).

End Rant, AGAIN (**** someone think about it please!).

If you found this too long and didn't read it - find another career :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[brisdude]

Wonderful opinion!:ok:

[goat meat]

Ytrylllyÿtlmlll

[yep_ok_whatever]

Brisdude: are you a cx kid + cadet or direct entry?

[VFE]

Does anyone know if any RAF guys who got chopped during the MOD cutbacks have accepted an iCad position?

VFE.

[Cpt. Underpants]

I believe of the 29 who came to HKG for interviews, all but one were offered a position.

12 (?) accepted and I believe 2 actually took the position...

I don't know how valid this is, but never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

[brisdude]

Just another kid of a CX captain that took the iCadet option.

Now I understand I really, really should have listened to those that know better.

Lots of guys have parents who are ex CX and they shake their heads in disgust at our terms and honestly, I think rightly so.

Though being trapped in a 5+ year cycle as a second officer (which no one will recognise time) is a horrid thing.

When I was a child I grew up in a nice house and my parents did not have to worry about education, medical etc.

Now is NOT the case.

When my father joined CX they had about a dozen aircraft. A different system of management and a different culture. What I have is good, but not great, and I certainly wish I put the hard yards in charter and if I really had SJS bough a 320 or 737ng rating or work to be a PIC of a KingAir and worked contract.

HK is expensive and if your going for a job that you will struggle to own a car then it doesn't take an idiot to think twice...

[captain.weird]

Brisdude, what do you think about your future then? Swithing to another airline or so? PM is welcome too.

[AQIS Boigu]

PM is welcome too

No Brisdude...speak up and say what people need to know...

[yep_ok_whatever]

Yeah Brisdude, speak up :ok:. Some questions.

How long have you been an SO for?

What did your old man say about the iCadet, did they encourage you to do it rather than going a GA way?

Did you consider KA? I guess you have a perm id card? If you didnt consider it why not?

[Paperplanes89]

Dear All,

Does anyone know of any ab initio cadets who have successfully made it onto this program (who are not HK nationals/residents)? I've been told it is mainly FI's, ex-RAF redundancies, low-hour prop guys and girls making it. Are any/many purely rookie 'international cadets' joining this scheme? Thanks:ok:

[Wannaberightseat]

Hi, anyone interested in sharing a 747-200 sim in Bournemouth?

PM me if interested.

[soundbite]

478 posts of cynicism and counting....talk about a broken record

[ChinaBeached]

172 pages & 3431 previous posts of the same naive & ignorant questions asked that have been answered MANY times.

172 pages & 3431 posts & another ignorant wannabe sell out who hasn't bothered to read the the entire thread comes to the fray about cynicism & broken records. Genius. Again, just the perfect imbecilic stooge that CX management find it so easy to promote this insulting offer to. Even a guy above actually DOING IT has the professionalism to mention the truths but you'll define him as a "broken record" because his knowledge & experience that you seek doesn't fit into the cocoon of stupidity & ignorance you rely on to make your decisions.

Wow, guy sticks his neck out by asking a question, only to get it chopped off shortly afterwards. Welcome to PPRuNe.

You wrote it. If ignorant fools like yourself keep coming to this debate or topic asking the same moronic questions answered so MANY times then expect the same answers. Papaerplanes89 yet again cements this point.

"Sticks one's neck out" you wrote on a prior post? As Mark Twain said, "It's better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it & remove all doubt."

172 pages & 3431 posts. I'll guarantee another "passionate" wannabe posts the same questions within the next 5 pages. Such "passion" they claim yet so lazy to do any form of decent research. For a career they earmark "passion" to they show zero effort to be bothered to read up on. They turn to, rely on & argue from an ill informed standpoint on a rumour network in search of career determining information as opposed to calling CX themselves to receive the facts. (Least of all consider those offering the facts from both sides of the debate).

Pay bananas, get monkeys. I hope guys like soudbite get the CX job. An aviation pariah he seeks to be, a pariah he deserves to be labelled for life. At this stage though your greatest achievement in applying for the sell-out job is to have located your HSC. Keep going!!! Pen to paper on a really and truly and really true life application form coud be a reality!!! Parental assistance is encouraged in your case & may not be considered cheating. But practice first & use a rumour network to ask how!! Then bitch if the answers don't suit of course.....

Don't get me wrong. I can see why you defend this iCadet package so pathetically. If CX were to bring back the high standards of recruitment as well as remuneration then experienced airmen with credentials would apply again, thus leaving the likes of you unable to not only compete, but to even qualify. You prefer to start fires & to hell with the major (as well as life threatening) consequences of arson just because you want to be a fireman like in the movies & TV shows. In your mind, you're a genius & the reasoning makes sense.

[tchiu2003]

Hello

Does anyone have the JKI booklet that CX sends out prior to the stage one interview? I have yet to receive mine :(.

[theredwoodbus]

i applied last year augest, but still no reply from cx yet

in the mean time, i got my PPL and training on a tail wheel, landing was hard special when hit cross wind, so it slow down my slow, and I slow on my 30th hour, and got my PPL in 55 hours, if any of you guys familiar with CX, I have heard that CX will not consider you if you didn't slow in 15 hours, now I am twice more than that... do you think that's a done deal with cadet program for me with CX and KA. thx

[etrang]

I'll guarantee another "passionate" wannabe posts the same questions within the next 5 pages.

And I'll guarantee that chinabeached, dan and the rest will keep banging their heads against this brick wall and then wonder why they have a headache.

[ChinaBeached]

True.

But you'll notice that every few pages a new guy comes along to sprout his ill informed & ignorant opinions. Oddly enough they are usually the same as the last guy who doesn't read, research or comprehend before posting. He puts up an attempted fight to defend the undefendable and goes away. People read this and talk. The more who talk the better.

The more people who read and see this insult & debacle for what it is the better, so it's not a complete exercise in head-butting a brick wall. Then again some sheep willfully go into the slaughter house determined & convinced that the nice farmer won't do it to them......

[Em773ER]

I dont understand why people fail to see how much of an insult this cpp package really is. As a captain you will not be that much better off than a 3rd year SO on Cos08!!. I'm passionate about flying along with all you other wannabes, but becoming an airline pilot is a LIFESTYLE, no more no less. As an airline pilot i expect a good lifestyle for me and future family. With this cpp, that will be difficult. All "negetivity" aside (valuable info you decide to ignore), ok realistically as a young single person you can live "reasonably" on this cpp conditions, its doable no doubt.... but 12 years from now as an FO you will not be living the lifestyle you deserve. Now before this becomes an "aviation is not what it used be" debate, i agree with that statement but my gosh this package is pure scum and actually makes me sick. No wonder CX lacks transition guys like CB etc, they know better and knocked back the cpp. All you have to see is the "cpp captain vs Cos08 SO" facts to see how bad this really is. Maybe someone with better info (CB im looking at you my friend lol) can outline in detail exactly how worse off you will be as a capt on cpp than a current SO on Cos08. Thats my 2 cents worth. 77W

[ChinaBeached]

Some basic maths that these "passionate" guys do not either wish to consider or wish to call CX to receive the FACTS....

From the ACTUAL iCadet Offer HKPLA:
Assuming a 20 year old joins the CEP and retires at 62 (for argument's sake):
SO = $10k HKD / month (say for 4 years) = $480k HKD
JFO & FO = $14k HKD / month (say for 4 years as JFO & 6 years as FO) = $672k HKD
SFO = $18k HKD / month (say for 6 years) = $432k HKD
Capt1 to Capt2 = $24k HKD / month (say 6 years) = $1,728k HKD
Capt3 to Capt6 = $30k HKD / month (say 8 years) = $2,880k HKD
Capt7 = $36k HKD / month (say for last 8 years of your career) = $3,456k HKD

For a 42 year career the HKPLA AVERAGE: $9,648k total HKPLA "given" by CX / 42 years / 12 months in a year = $19,143 HKD per month.

The iCadet HKPLA IS NOT factored to CPI.

Let's be VERY, VERY, VERY conservative and say that inflation is only an average of 5% per year in HK for those 42 years (yeah, right....) gives a NET MONTHLY housing allowance of $2,478 HKD per month (an average of $19,143 HKD per month depreciating at 5% per year) over this illustrious career or "opportunity" CX are "giving" you!!!!!!! Then again, the "passionate" wannabes know all this already & can argue from an informed point of view.

Play with the figures, change what you want. They are only very kind and conservative at best. If anything, they will only get far, FAR worse. I only used 5% inflation where last year it was 22% alone!!!!

Now let's look at CX's lovely management culture. To quote from TT in the year ending 2010 statement where profit was $14.048 BILLION (9 March, 2011):
"...best ever year...." and then "...in line with our philosophy to share the rewards when times are good...."

And they bring in the CEP scheme by way of sharing the profits and "best ever year". What great team players.

The CoS08 figures are best described by someone better than me, although i have that document. In short, the "BASE" housing allowance is stated as being factored to CPI and is:
SO < 2 years at CX = $14k HKD / month
SO > 2 years at CX = $18k HKD / month
JFO & higher rank = $24k HKD / month

Assistance in excess of the base rates are:
Capts = $55k HKD / month
JFO/FO/SFO > 8 years at CX = $45k HKD / month
Rent Free Zone (RFZ) = $35k HKD / month where SO's after 2 years can choose 50% of the RFZ or the base rate (details of definitions too in depth....), as per others after 8 years at CX....

Also, those under CoS08 & other receive the upgraded housing allowance on commencement of an upgrade course. The iCadet package only upon gaining the new title. Consider that upgrades can last from start to finish many months: 6+ months at times considering ground school, sectors, etc.....

Do the maths & see what an insult this CEP is.

For those about to argue I'm wrong to have posted these figures, they are no secret and widely known in the industry, and readily available with minimal research. Anyone who does not know them and is applying for CX is a damn fool.

The decision is a no brainer, except for the ones who deny what they do not know.

For those able & willing, please correct where needed.

[dreamjob]

Is it true CX is "Half of what it was last year" as quoted by Alan Joyce today?

That's hard to believe if they had "the best year ever".

[ming2345]

Hi all,

Is that ture that CX CPP has no definite schedule( because of a no. of batches), Anyone has any idea about recent recruitment schedule? I have applied in the begining of Oct and they just said wait, I dont have any further notice even now.

thx

[yep_ok_whatever]

No more until Jan or Feb next year as far as I'm aware.

[YC-W]

Hi all,
I've submit my application on the 30th of September. My friend told me it takes about 4-6 month to get the first interview call. So I guess we have to be patient. Good luck everyone.:ok:
BTW, is there anyone from Auckland as well?

[AQIS Boigu]

In the days when CX hired real pilots it took the majority of applicants anywhere from one to three years to get called up for an interview...

Patience kids...patience...

[Bazza241]

HI all,

I'm doing stage 2 next month. If anyone has any details to share on what to expect would love to hear.

[anakin.skytracker]

Bazza,

You will have ur stage 2 soon?
Did CX told u what will be included in Stage2?

Many thx
anakin

[yep_ok_whatever]

Is it just me or does anyone who has, or is reading "aviation knowledge" finding that it could be written to a higher standard?

[Jim-J]

It just screams: ' I want it and I want IT NOW!'

[Paperplanes89]

I didn't spout out any opinions, I was merely wondering about the validity of a few rumours I have heard. The reason why people don't read this god-awful thread is that it is so littered of people bashing the scheme it would take me a year or so to find an answer to the simplest of questions. I didn't mention anything about the t&cs of the scheme or the 'morality' of the scheme on purpose because I'm sick of the pointless debate that emerges even when someone asks a simple question. ChinaBeached you are exactly the type of person who gives pprune its reputation, you seem to have made a career from pointing out the flaws of this icadet scheme. My suggestion is we should have one thread for those interested in applying and one for those who want to bash the scheme and come up with some wild predictions about pay/the state of the economy/inflation etc etc which in my opinion is borderline insanity. Yes, its not a brilliant program - far from it I expect. No, you'll never be rich. But come on lets allow people to work the financial side of things out for themselves and lets talk about more useful matters for the people who actually want to apply to CX, which is what the thread was originally intended for in my opinion.

If it's that bad then don't apply. Simple. Don't pollute the thread with garbage. Let wannabes be wannabes.

Now, I'm sure that I'll be rinsed for this post and that it has no impact on this thread, but do I really care? No, not really. But is it fair to call someone an ignorant fool for asking a question on a forum for people who are trying to find out more about pilot careers? My question wasn't exactly what is modular training, how many engines does a 737 have? Just calm down, and perhaps get out more.

Anyway, live long and prosper, hope to see you all in the sky one day. :ok:

[ChinaBeached]

"A year" to read a massive 173 pages? Wow. Therein lies your average dedicated wannabe's "passion" to read from the source they seek the answers from.

A career on this thread? No. My career is progressing well. I didn't sell out my industry, or the pilot body I seek to join to do it. Nor even attempt to justify those actions if I did. I and many, many others with the correct and accurate information point out the flaws that you ask for by your ignorant questions. Again, you seek a rumour network to search for facts instead of the common sense to phone CX themselves.

If it's that bad then don't apply. Simple. Don't pollute the thread with garbage. Let wannabes be wannabes.

If you don't like the truth or others' opinions then get off the internet and "rumour" chat sites. If in your opinion I pollute this thread, so be it. You'll find that hundreds of thousands of pilots worldwide believe the likes of your ignorant, selfish self pollute the industry as a whole. The likes of you contribute NOTHING positive to aviation. You only detract from it via this CEP and defence of it. We were all "wannabes" once, it's just that most did not actively attempt nor justify a downturn in standards or the industry as a whole to make our careers a successful reality.

Live long & prosper? Not on the iCadet package kid! You'll have to rely on dressing up in your trecky gear in your 400 sq ft flat for lone entertainment as you won't afford much else.

No. Most of us hope and pray we never see uneducated, ignorant, unskilled, must-have-it-all-now, naive kids hell bent on being a slur on aviation in the sky any day. Just in case I'll double check the TCAS system.... But I'll still get a laugh out of the immature dribble RT on the ramps worldwide!!!!

[nevet]

Anyone on here ever date a Cathay flight attendant? If so, how did it work out?

[Em773ER]

thanks CB for those figures! :ok:

the likes of paperplanes89 you guys seem to have selective attention (not good for pilots btw!!) you want to hear what you want to hear and when you hear what you dont like, you complain and whinge about how the likes of CB keep bashing the scheme when simply they/we are trying to help out to let others know the FULL facts not just the rose tinted BS CX will give you. I mean 3 years to JFO? seriously... on the old terms yes.

[AQIS Boigu]

We can read, write and argue over 170+ pages of this thread but this mess can be summarized in a few paragraphs:

Experienced pilots don't want 200hr kids in the cockpit; it's bad for the standards, it's bad for safety and it's bad for everyone's conditions.

0-200hr Gen Y/Z kids don't wanna do military/GA instructing/bush flying/regional flying because they have had it so f...ing easy in the 21st century and therefore it's all perceived as too hard. Further at their young (and immature) age they don't give a **** how much they get paid since they get this "wonderful" opportunity to bypass all the "other" flying and it's more than they would get at the supermarket down the road refilling shelves whilst going to university.

Anyone disagree???

[Harlok]

I think you guys need a reality check. what makes an airline pilot a profession so different from others? why do you feel you are entitled to a "lifestyle" when most fo the rest of the world isnt?!? Now, do you guys ever read the news or something?
I probably have more education than most of you and I have been working my ass off for longer than all of you have even though I make less and I find myself lucky i have a decent house (yes you can have a decent house in HK with less than HKD 10k rent a month, Ive been here for 10 years I know) and a good job (yes, a job paying less than HKD 50-60k a month is indeed a very good job) and i dont go around ranting about younger (or older, for that matter) people that manage to find better opportunities than i have and have had. Actually more often than not I end up feeling bad when i hear from friends and family back in my home country having lost their job or having to settle for far less than what i have because of the economic downturn.
And if you think that you are so speshul because you are entrusted with the lives of hundreds of ppl every time you go to work, you arent more speshul than a ground mechanic or engineer or a firefighter for that matter. A badly screwed bolt and a faulty electric circuit can crash a plane. Why should feel entitled to earn more than them!?? Be grateful for what you have folks because it's much much much more than what most people that are probably more brilliant, talented, educated and hard working but less lucky than you make. And in any case it will only get worse, if you read the news you'll know.
Reading your posts it feels like CX planes might fall off the sky any minute because of incompetent new hires. I keep looking up in the sky but I havent seen it happening so far, so the training that they are given mustn't be that horribly inadequate, after all. Oh. BTW...maybe there's a reason why they arent allowed to take off and land an airliner before they have seen how it's done for years... uhmm...

[Jagdfalke]

Those loose nuts and faulty circuits might well have killed a lot more people than they already have if not for the guys sitting in the pointy end.

Here is some suggested reading for you:

Qantas Flight 32
US Airways Flight 1549
United Airlines Flight 232 (my personal favourite)


Why should pilots get paid more? Because when the bolts do come loose and the circuits do fail, the ground mechanics and the engineers aren't the ones who are 10 kilometers above the ground, struggling to control several hundred tons of metal and fuel hurtling through the atmosphere at speeds approaching mach 1.

[yep_ok_whatever]

Aqis:

I partially agree. Lots of us young guys feel entitled. Not sure why but that's just this generation. Personally I don't feel that I fit into this category. If I could get a job flying in the bush I would take it, i think it would be more fun goung the GA way. The problem lies with the fact that it still costs a hell of a lot to be trained to fly in the bush.

Now you might say I am entitled because I don't want to pay for it myself. Well I would say that cost of living isn't what it used to be. I currently have a decent job, yet the amount of money I save after tax is ridiculous. Twenty to thirty years ago you could buy a home with your annual salary. Now it's more like a multiple of ten times or more of an annual salary.

I think the entitlement may come from more of a necessity than anything else.

[ChinaBeached]

whatever..... The sad irony is that I'll bet my month's salary that you have not researched and applied to any and every aviation study & training scholarship you may be eligible for, let alone bombarded every GA operator in the "bush" for a flying job, nor jumped in your car for a 6+ week road trip calling in to every said operator to press the flesh. Like your fellow hopeful iCadets you comment from an unjustified and deliberately ignorant point of view. "Too hard" just because you haven't damn-well even tried. Sorry, but you're like the fat lady complaining it's too hard to lose weight while scoffing down a triple cheese burger:- all "too hard".

You don't want to pay for it in the same vane you don't like rainy days. Yet so odd the 1000's upon 1000's of pilots did so and as a result did not have to sell out their colleagues and industry for a successful airline career. The hours they earned made them master of their own destiny, and not a slave to an untrustworthy and immoral corporation.

Entitlement comes from sheer arrogance, greed and laziness.

More irony is the fact that you think this CEP is a means to better save and plan for a future, despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary!!

A few posts back you asked for answers to your question. You received the answer yet typically ignore it because it's "too hard" so instead rely on your sense of "entitlement". So, as such, do you think you contribute to aviation or detract from it??

Thieves often steal from a sense of entitlement: he has what I want and he can afford to replace it or insurance will replace it so where's the harm? Justify it how you want, the result is still the same. "Entitlement"? What a sad and stupid joke.

[yep_ok_whatever]

CB: What is more sad than ironic is that you profess to know so much about an anonymous figure on a forum, that you would bet a months salary.

I'm all for a forum being open for debate, however your comments come off as just angry and bitter. Calm down, it's not the end of days.

[Cpt. Underpants]

It's not the end of days - yes. It's death by a thousand nibbles.

[americanwannabe]

I'm new around here..Becoming a pilot is a fairytale dream for me.. I have no flying experience at all and I got an interview message for Stage 1 in HK. I applied months ago. So long ago I forgot about this. They told me a date for November a few weeks back, but I couldn't make it out to HK. They emailed me again today for Dec 6th. Happened to be heading for vacation to Nepal/India around that time. I've managed to reroute my mileage ticket on purposely transiting HK for 3/4 of a day to take this assessment. I've been reading up on this thread today. I'm guessing I have absolutely the slimmest chance.. but hey it won't cost me any extra money to get out there, so why not give it i shot?

What do you think? 23 year old with only airline industry experience- business side(revenue accounting stuff) and no flying experience. Do I stand a remote chance? PM me if you have any tips to prepare for the assessment. All I can do is read what's out on this forum, but if you have any tips it would be greatly appreciated

[Cpt. Underpants]

Fetches popcorn, unfolds deck chair, pulls cooler box closer...

[Voiceofreason]

OK, so I waded out of this debate many pages ago. I resisted the urge for ages to not come back on and get frustrated again, but in the end, I gave in.

CB: Your figures are wrong, assumptive and misleading. I barely know where to begin, since you seem so keen to spout figures that you clearly don't actually have.

Firstly, as clearly advertised to CX employees (and anyone who applies, hence why I don't feel it's unjustified to put them here), the bands are:

SO/JFO - 10k
FO - 14k
SFO - 18k
CN1-SCN2 - 24k
SCN3-SCN6 - 30k
SCN7+ - 36k

You say 4 years as JFO when in fact JFO is more like a designation given "in transit" between SO and FO. I've never known anyone take longer than 18 months in this phase except in medical cases. In fact, I would be surprised if you (or anyone else) could name someone who has not achieved FO within 6 years of joining. Mostly, it's more like 4-5. CX simply doesn't keep SOs who can't make the grade.

Do you have any idea what it's like to live in HK? Have you ever actually spent any decent length of time here? Who are you to therefore say that $90k+ when you reach FO is "disgusting" as a package? Sure, the entry package for first year SO is quite tight ($45k a month) if you have a family, but it doesn't stay there for long.

You also seem to imply that it was a CoS08 package that gave expat housing - new joiners now are also joining on CoS08. There is only one tangible difference between what the expats were receiving then and what all new joiners are being offered now - the replacement of expat housing with the HKPA. It's still the same CoS08 that locals and expats alike joined on previously.

Likewise, I fail to see any possible logical reasoning for assuming there will be absolutely no increase to the HKPA over the course of a 42-year career, as you have assumed. My pay scales have recently been increased, so is it right to assert categorically that there will never be any increase whatsoever in the HKPA? I'm not convinced.

And 22% inflation?? Seriously?? Which planet were you living on? Show me where you picked that out from.

Once again, I come back to my core argument: it is not the expat package. It is a local package. Is it expensive to live in Hong Kong? Yes. Is it expensive to live in the UK/Australia/Canada - yes, especially when you factor in nutty tax rates. I don't see many housing allowances being offered in those places.

Above all: is it a good package? Yes. The best? No. But if it was all about the dollars, EK/QR would be the only ones who are receiving applications. It is certainly not "disgusting" or anything like it, and those who receive it may well be justifiably insulted by those kind of comments. Indeed, it is still up there with the highest paying legacy carriers around. It's just not, for experienced pilots, leading that pack any more.

For pilots with few or no hours, I'd say it's just about the best deal you will see.

People applying who compare their packages to what may have been could just as easily say "y'know, I wish I was born earlier so I could have applied when A-scales were around". Those packages are gone, and won't be back. Make the judgement not on what "might have been", but on what is offered in front of you.

/rant

[yep_ok_whatever]

Voiceofreason: your handle does you justice. It's a breath of fresh air.

[kelevra]

My first post.

Anyways, hey all! It's gonna be my second time to apply to the Cathay Pacific Cadet programme. The first time I only got up to Stage 2 the first time. I was very intimidated and overwhelmed when I first got the invite. I thought they would never get back to me.

I vaguely remember the tests. My question concerns the Aviation Knowledge booklet.

How far into the topic are we suppose to study it?

I remember when I first got it, it seemed like brief knowledge and at first I was like "this can't be right". So, for example, I started learning the different areas of the atmosphere and almost everything I can think of associated with the topic.

Another example is when I studied the theory of flight with the simple explanation and Bernoulli's principle. I considered finding his damn paper of hydrodynamica which contained the principle.

So, back to my question how in depth are we suppose to study the Aviation Knowledge booklet?

[yep_ok_whatever]

Kelevra et al:

Yes I would like to know how in depth it will be.

[ChinaBeached]

And 22% inflation?? Seriously?? Which planet were you living on? Show me where you picked that out from.You asked for it:

Rents up 22 per cent in Hong Kong as confidence returns to Asia* - ECA International (http://www.eca-international.com/news/press_releases/show_press_release?ArticleID=7310#.TrpqFjuoojA)

And to think that 10 secs of googling "hong kong rental property increase 2010" was difficult? Ooops!! I should've mentioned "TOO HARD" or I feel a sense of "ENTITLEMENT" to not need to serve facts as part of a discussion or debate??!

You owe me and those following this forum an apology - as I did you when you have corrected me in the past.

Voice, read and try to appreciate what was written. I openly mentioned to AMEND and CORRECT any data that was incorrect, especially the time lines as well as CPI figures!! Reduce those CPI figures from 5% if you wish, but once again, minimal "research" (google that word too...) shows me not far off it the mark at all: Inflation to Eclipse Hong Kong's Salary Increases in 2012 | CFO innovation ASIA (http://www.cfoinnovation.com/content/inflation-eclipse-hong-kongs-salary-increases-2012)

So, use my figures taken from the ACTUAL CEP contract offered me. If they have changed then say so and amend them where needed: by your figures, they have not. Change the duration periods!! Reduce inflation to 3%!!!! See what end figure you come out with!!!!! The HKPLA figures are not incorrect, as you attest to, but I freely and openly admitted that the time lines are very general - so stop trying to pick a fight about a moot point when I said the same from the beginning.

The iCadets will not receive a "PAY" increase between now and 42 years? Who the hell ever said anything of the like?? Of course the "salary" side will go up periodically (once every 10 or so years seems to be the going average from the last hoopla and CC debacle - ooops! And they came back with AHK not even 2 weeks after the agreement! You showed them!!) The CEP HKPLA is not by means of the contract terms & conditions slated to CPI. That is a fact you cannot deny. So I can truthfully and correctly argue that to budget for an increase in the CPI HKPLA is not viable. Only a fool would budget on what is not a contractual obligation. Like the same pilots budgeting on their allowances for mortgage payments - stupid.

YOUR remuneration increased because YOU are a HK National. As written before, because of the RDO and pressure to bring your package in line with the rest of the expat pilot group, CX used it against the pilot body instead. Give a little here (HK Nationals) but take so very, very, very much from everywhere else. They played you all for absolute suckers and must be wetting their million dollar beds at those commending the CEP terms and conditions!

Tell all the facts mate, not just the ones that are hidden behind your own train set. You claim it is a great offer because you came from the original HK National cadetship - something that low life Capt RH even wrote earlier in the year in one of his insulting and condescending updates how the CX cadetship is designed to sponsor and support the local HK national community. See one of my previous posts where it is quoted. Odd what they (he) says it is for but stranger still what they do with it.... How is his bank balance going as a result??

Go and amend my figures with more accurate time lines that I know and accept you can provide and use whatever CPI figures you want relative to the HK rental market and come back with the results. Make it transparent, as I did so it is open to debate. Even if the figure I came up with is doubled by your figures, it's nothing but a damn insult from what the package should be, for ALL CX pilots no matter which nationality.

No one has argued on this forum about wishing to have been "born earlier" to have been on A-Scale. B-Scale did not nor did the HK National cadetship accept or create lower standards due to it's selectivity & relatively small intake (although others will vehemently argue that point - not for me to say or buy into). What you cannot deny is that this CEP by the terms & conditions it offers has borne a new breed of disgracefully low standards whereas before CX represented nothing but the highest of standards. Go back and compare CX wannabe threads from pre iCadet days to now just for glimpse of the pathetic standards.

"whatever" will just do "whatever" anyone tells him or he thinks justifies his sense of "entitlement". There's a guy you want to depend on as an ally and colleague!!! whatever, you jump on anyone's back that serves to spank you the sweetest, without care for research of your own. And yeah, I am straight forward without the pleasantries regarding guys like you who crap on all that I and so many others worked & studied for for so many years..... because of your sense of "entitlement". I don't have to see or meet the snake to know what creates the hissing sound.

[yep_ok_whatever]

Haha I'm sorry CB, maybe it has something to do with my lack of research, my gen y arrogance and or general ignorance. But do explain how exactly I'm crapping on you?

Do you mind if I ask you a couple of straight out questions. Excuse me if they have been posted on prune before but you can't forget that I'm entitled to an answer without research due to my age and ability to crap on people heads.

How long have you been with cx for?
How long have you lived in hong kong for?
What caused you to be so bitter about the cadets (incident specific please)?

I have to say that you do have some great information that is of course important to people on this forum. It's just that your delivery is terrible. You twist peoples statements which are generally inconsequential/benign into some sort of attack on their personality.

Did you ever consider working for a politician? You'd make a good spin doctor twisting peoples words to suit your own agenda, whatever it may be.

Yes, what is your agenda? Is it to stop potential cadets from applying? To suit your own needs or to protect them from the apparent hell that is cx?

Looking forward to your sweet spanking.

[ChinaBeached]

For the very reasons you gave I won't answer your mindless questions that have been answered countless times before. Read & research, but mostly refer back to the Mark Twain quote.

a good spin doctor twisting peoples words to suit your own agendaMy "agenda" comes from first hand experience, researched facts & information received. Incoherent sheep like you label it as "spin". Again, the CEP is designed for ignorant stooges like you. If your spine were not so weak then it may not be so easily twisted. Few have presented any credible argument to defend the despicable lowering of standards as well as T's & C's at CX. One or two alone have offered corrections to errors, but that's it.

Better still, instead of making baseless accusations, why don't you grow a pair and prove what you believe I've written is wrong with researched and transparent facts?

[Voiceofreason]

You asked for it:

Rents up 22 per cent in Hong Kong as confidence returns to Asia* - ECA International

And to think that 10 secs of googling "hong kong rental property increase 2010" was difficult? Ooops!! I should've mentioned "TOO HARD" or I feel a sense of "ENTITLEMENT" to not need to serve facts as part of a discussion or debate??!


Oh dear. Rent = inflation? Try again. Not my fault you used the word "inflation" in your argument.

So, use my figures taken from the ACTUAL CEP contract offered me.

I HIGHLY doubt you were given any contract with the HKPA figures in there. How do I know? Because they aren't in there. It refers to a Pilot Allowance being paid in accordance with Company Policy. Therefore I conclude you haven't seen the contract at all.

I don't mind you quoting figures you have gleaned from somewhere and remain open to question, but when you state things as fact and categorical (which elsewhere in your post, you did) it becomes misleading.

The iCadets will not receive a "PAY" increase between now and 42 years? Who the hell ever said anything of the like?? Of course the "salary" side will go up periodically (once every 10 or so years seems to be the going average from the last hoopla and CC debacle - ooops! And they came back with AHK not even 2 weeks after the agreement! You showed them!!) The CEP HKPLA is not by means of the contract terms & conditions slated to CPI.


You insinuate that because the HKPA is not linked to any form of CPI adjustment, that it will therefore never increase. I was drawing attention to the inaccuracy of that insinuation by stating that my salary isn't either, and yet it just increased.

Who on earth budgets over what they are going to receive over the course of a 42-year career? Even if you attempt that, surely it's with a HUGE grain of salt given so many undefinable variables. You may be able to forecast the next 5-10 years POSSIBLY, but that's about it. My whole argument is that it is utterly pointless doing the kind of exercise you did in extrapolating out the HKPA over such a long period of time, and then factoring in some very hypothetical inflation rate. Both will undoubtedly change over time.

YOUR remuneration increased because YOU are a HK National.

Nope, all salaries increased recently. I became entitled to the HKPA I'm assuming for two reasons: 1) Because it became quite clear to management that we should get something - indeed, we've been harping on about it to the DFO for years. But, probably more importantly, 2) they realised they would attract no-one from overseas without it and the forgivable loan. Remains to be seen if those overseas can handle the DIRE conditions we put up with in HK on such a meagre allowance. No-one else has paid for it at all - only those who are willing to come on these terms do come. It's CX who will lose in the end if not enough come, not anyone else.

BTW, the arrival of the HKPA and forgivable loan had nothing to do with CC.

it's nothing but a damn insult from what the package should be,

What should it be? According to whom/what standard? Again, it's not insulting to me (or obviously the many, many NON-HK NATIONALS joining on it). What gives you the right to say what it should be? You don't like the offer - that much is painfully, irrevocably clear. You didn't accept it as a result. No problem.

Move on.

No one has argued on this forum about wishing to have been "born earlier" to have been on A-Scale. B-Scale

But that's effectively what you're saying when you say CX are insulting everyone and need to wind the clock back to the expat terms. THE TERMS OF THE OFFER HAVE CHANGED - DONE DEAL. ACCEPT THE NEW TERMS, OR DON'T - IT'S UP TO YOU. But it's quite clear that the only people who are going to decide what the package is are not going to be influenced by people complaining about it on here.

What you cannot deny is that this CEP by the terms & conditions it offers has borne a new breed of disgracefully low standards

Go down to ADL and tell that to the faces of the cadets on these courses. You show me EXACTLY how they are not up to the same standards of all other cadets who have passed through the system from the first time it started, and we can talk again. Your assumption that the people posting on here are the same ones CX are accepting is just a ridiculous leap of logic.

Finally, I'd just like to address your use of the words "despicable", "insulting", "disgusting" and the like. Can I simply ask: why are you so offended? If you feel your worth is higher than what you are being offered, that is entirely your decision. Go elsewhere and earn more. Others may choose differently, but does that REALLY make them "stooges" and "spineless"?

I think I've come out and given some fairly good reasons for why I think CX stopped offering expat terms, but I'll summarize them again:

1) With the RDO coming into force in HK, they can't pay different terms to people doing the same job.
2) They don't want to pay expat terms for all, because they are very expensive, and because there would then be little point in having the cadet program. I am not condoning this position, just stating it as I think management would have seen it.
3) Therefore, all new contracts must be on the same terms - improved local terms.

I think Baronblue has hit the nail square and centre on the head:

I think the deal is good for young guys with no experience as the potential over a career is great IF you accept that you are a local in Hong Kong and all that goes with that.
However, for experienced guys wanting to live an expat life Emirates is now the airline of choice with free housing, electric, water bills, 100% education, transport and a tax free income, popular celebrity location. Cathay just cannot compete, so it's relying on the in house home grown talent (the known quantity). Clearly if you want to go to Cathay these days it's because you want to live in Hong Kong.

I would only add emphasize again that for many, it's not ONLY about the money. Many would not want to move to the desert, and are more interested in life in HK, even if that means a lower package.

Fancy that, eh? We're not all mercenaries.

:ok:

[Krashman]

I turned down a QR interview because the 'sandbox' was a no go item on my wife's terms.

HK on the other hand is a different story. No compounds, no dress codes and one day (if bases are ever offered) the opportunity, if we want, to live somewhere else.

If its not for you, don't apply. If all you can think about is 'putting you time in' and going back to the UK, North America when you can get a base your in it for the wrong reasons.

I'm not just in it for the cash, although I will still make a healthy amount of it in my career at CX.

[yep_ok_whatever]

CB:

When you insult people with very little to back up your assumptions, you make a fool of yourself. You, at the same time discredit yourself and the information you have about CX and the Cadet Programme.

As much as I know you will disagree with me and call me an ignorant, entitled, douchebag, focused on nothing but destroying aviation and crapping on colleagues, your arguments, whether for or against the cx scheme have very little merit. If you are going to put facts forward, do so. Let us analyse them, some of us are smarter than you give us credit for.

[soundbite]

The silence is deafening

[crwjerk]

Why should pilots get paid more? Because when the bolts do come loose and the circuits do fail, the ground mechanics and the engineers aren't the ones who are 10 kilometers above the ground, struggling to control several hundred tons of metal and fuel hurtling through the atmosphere at speeds approaching mach 1.


Nor are they the ones who signed for the A/C, LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE for others' cock ups. Thank you.

[ChinaBeached]

The silence is deafening

Why? Because at FL370 I couldn't jump onto the internet to reply in your timeframe?

When you insult people with very little to back up your assumptions, you make a fool of yourself

You have a self proclaimed feeling of "entitlement" for the CX job because GA is "too hard" - but not that you've even tried. So where are my "assumptions" false about you? Does that make you selfish? Yes. You have not offered but ONE piece of logical evidence to defend the CEP that you so eagerly wish to join, not know any real facts. Does that make you naive? Yes. You take advice or opinions only from one side of the debate, ignoring the other side and making baseless accusations. Does that make you ignorant? Yes. Assumptions you say? No.

(I never called you a "douchebag", but since you used the word to describe yourself, I'll "assume" it to be extremely accurate).

Voice: I have the EXACT HKPLA document in my hand now. My apologies for calling it the "contract". You are right, and I take back that term "contract". But, that does not negate what is written on it and the fact that I was sent it from CX HR along with the offer of employment. PM me if you wish & I'll provide you with the names and email addresses as well as contact numbers from the precise document.

You're really pulling at straws to try to differ CPI with rental costs. I suppose GDP has little to do with living standards or interest rates on consumer confidence?? The HKPLA is completely and undeniably linked to the HK rental market fluctuations in so far as it is stagnant and not reflective of any changes. As it is, that is a fact. To "assume" CX are your friend and will raise the HKPL because they are just great guys in your eyes is laughable. There's a best seller exposing the CX corporate culture & methods of how they treat the pilot body - read it. You want to bank on CX's management's good will to just give the pilots more money. Good luck with that bet.

Yes, I insinuate that because under the terms of the contract CX have zero incentive to ever offer an increase in the HKPLA. You seem to want to bank on their well established good nature I suppose? Too funny.... Unsecured financial gambles - hang on? Wasn't that Lehman Bros and a little GFC we had recently? How did that thinking work out in the long run???

BTW, the arrival of the HKPA and forgivable loan had nothing to do with CC.

Who said it did? I didn't. I clearly stated it was from the RDO where the AOA were fighting for the HK Nationals to be on the same T's&C's as the majority of the pilot body by way of housing and rental assistance. Instead CX used it against the pilot body. Yeah...great guys.

Nope, all salaries increased recently.

And the last salary increase before that one was when? When you were still considering why you need to know algebra! And it took the threat of CC to make it happen....and then like I said, CX turned around and threw AHK in your faces.

My very hypothetical inflation rate

you say? I think I was very kind to use a flat 5%!! When the highs go upwards of 22% and the lows of around 3 - 3.5% then I think a 5% basic average is if anything damn kind to use over a 42 year period. I offered you to use another rate with your own more accurate career path time lines. You haven't. Prove me wrong.

Who on earth budgets over what they are going to receive over the course of a 42-year career?

Any intelligent person that does not consider their long term future and result at the end of the career they are entrusting a company to, that's who. To not have a gaugeable idea or consideration, like your new pal "whatever" and co., reeks of stupidity and ignorance.

For you to deny that entry level standards have not been despicably lowered is again, laughable. You truly believe that a pilot with thousands of hours of experience, often as Capt in light aircraft, > 5700 kg category turboprops, as well as jet aircraft are of a lower standard to a kid with zero hours, zero experience and zero credentials? Come on. Get a damn reality check. It is obvious why you defend it: you came from the cadet system. Now, nowhere have I EVER said that cadets can not be trained to a suitable standard. Where experience lacks, training must replace it. But what has CX down with the SO training? Recently they've lowered the FFS training from 12 to now only 6 (I believe) training sessions before being released for line ops. Again, CX show their true colours of cost cutting at the expense of standards. The common consensus amongst the many friends I have at CX is that CX is a checking airline, not a training airline. To deny that reputation is to also hold your head in the sand.

your use of the words "despicable", "insulting", "disgusting" and the like. Can I simply ask: why are you so offended?

Because that's how I and many other colleagues view this situation. Not one guy or girl I know at CX believes differently, and there are many who vary from senior Base Capts to present day DESO's. The same with colleagues at a range of other airlines - all saddened by the turn CX has taken. I use those words as I believe they are apt to describe the type of person who demands out of a sense of "entitlement" or other to actively promote the lowering of the industry as a whole, and not just CX. I and the many friends and colleagues worked and studied harder than these ignorant children can ever fathom. They decide hard work is not for them and so seek the alternative that only detracts from a once proud industry, let alone airline. But what's worse, they do so all the while without a care for what it is they are doing despite being told. Yes, those words are very deliberate and very apt. You think people who actively yet naively seek to crap on all you worked for for so many years deserves a better title?

You did not live off 2 min noodles, take it in turns to maintain the control column with your knees so keep your hands warm, drive for weeks on end to be told day in, day out no jobs were on offer, fly into the freezing layer just to maintain above LSALT for fear of losing your job if you didn't or couldn't because you needed those hours, fly in 48 deg heat 8+ sectors a day..., and so on, and so on....just for the privilege of a CX DESO interview. You don't "get it" and so you defend those like you who's hardest task in aviation has been the CX cadetship.

No Voice, we're not all mercenaries. Few if any pilots ever wanted to fly for the money. But to actively pursue a course that detracts from the industry, your (hopeful) colleagues and promotes the lowering of it shows zero integrity.

[Voiceofreason]

Not sure why I'm still bothering, but I guess I'm a sucker for punishment.

I have the EXACT HKPLA document in my hand now.

Fine, if you do. Then you would know the exact details are not how you put them in your first post. Just saying.

The HKPLA is completely and undeniably linked to the HK rental market fluctuations

Nope. It is simply an allowance. TBH, I see one day when they will simply add it into the overall payscales. All it is is an additional monthly cash allowance. Nowhere does it say it is linked to housing.

Now, I fully admit that none of my other benefits are linked in any way to the CPI or any other COLA index or similar. But then, I don't see very many other companies, let alone airlines, actually have a pay which varies according to cost of living. Perhaps the UN?

CX turned around and threw AHK in your faces

Do you even know what happened? Basically, nothing. How is that even relevant to pay increases? Yes, it was a while since the last increase, but we ended up getting another.

I offered you to use another rate with your own more accurate career path time lines. You haven't. Prove me wrong.

I replied saying it was disingenuous to try and factor in 42 years worth of inflation and completely discount the possibility of any further increase in the HKPA. There is virtually no point in doing that because if CX never increases salaries AND OTHER ALLOWANCES SUCH AS THE HKPA no times in the next 42 years, the airline will not exist. It simply will not happen. Therefore, over to you to try and factor in some kind of hypothetical increase to salaries/allowances to balance out your equation.

To not have a gaugeable idea or consideration, like your new pal "whatever" and co., reeks of stupidity and ignorance.

To make assumptions based on some back-of-a-fag packet calculations using stats and figures you selectively include to make your point reeks of bloody-mindedness and over-simplicity. Of course you can have an idea of what the package is worth RIGHT NOW. I assume you would also factor in CPI in any other pay offers too, therefore reducing it's worth in the future? To not do so would surely be misleading?

All you can do is compare what is on the table now. That's it! Who is to tell if the other airline is going to expand massively, contract massively, cease to exist or otherwise fundamentally change within the space of the next 42 years? Make your plans for the next 5-10, and re-evaluate. Such is the variability of the industry we find ourselves in.

Therefore, simply forget CPI or anything of the sort - it will be pretty similar in other places and companies too, therefore if you have the same variable across all calculations, you can discount it.

For you to deny that entry level standards have not been despicably lowered is again, laughable. You truly believe that a pilot with thousands of hours of experience, often as Capt in light aircraft, > 5700 kg category turboprops, as well as jet aircraft are of a lower standard to a kid with zero hours, zero experience and zero credentials? Come on. Get a damn reality check.

Your turn to re-read what I wrote. Never have I said that you should compare an experienced entry pilot with a cadet in terms of entry level standards. What you were saying, however (or at least how it seemed) was that the entry level standard of cadets has been lowered. I dispute this wholeheartedly.

But what has CX down with the SO training? Recently they've lowered the FFS training from 12 to now only 6 (I believe) training sessions before being released for line ops. Again, CX show their true colours of cost cutting at the expense of standards.

Do you know of any other airline that performs quite as many training sectors? Do you know how many sectors EK performs before it's check to line for DEFOs? Perhaps worth asking before you denigrate CX's standards.

You did not live off 2 min noodles, take it in turns to maintain the control column with your knees so keep your hands warm, drive for weeks on end to be told day in, day out no jobs were on offer, fly into the freezing layer just to maintain above LSALT for fear of losing your job if you didn't or couldn't because you needed those hours, fly in 48 deg heat 8+ sectors a day..., and so on, and so on....just for the privilege of a CX DESO interview.

And there we have it - we finally get to the core of the issue. You are personally upset that the goalposts have changed. CX has widened the net to attract more people into the industry, and you are saddened because you are no longer one of the "privileged few" (I use that term loosely, so don't go overboard in criticising me for it) who gets invited for a DESO interview.

Can you seriously blame the guys going for it? If it's no longer as tiresomely difficult to get in, how, again, is that your problem? You seem to be both attacking those who are making the offer (CX) and those who choose to accept it. This is a business transaction defined by market economics. You missed the boat in terms of the expat package, and I'm sorry for you for that. But other people aren't so blinded to think that it will come back, and choose the option and make the best of it. They make the choice they feel is right for them. It is egotistical in the extreme for you to assume that you know their needs/wants better than they do.

[etrang]

Interesting link CB

It seems HK rents can go DOWN as well as up. Who would have thought it? According to your link rents fell 25% in 2008/9, and from 2008 to 2010 there was still a net decline despite a 22% increase in 2009/10.

Hong Kong has witnessed some of the biggest price increases in the world, reflected in a jump up the ranking from 9th to 3rd position over the year. The price of renting two-bedroom accommodation rose by 22% to US$2 830 a month between 2009 and 2010. This contrasts with rent falls of around 25% the previous year.

You're really pulling at straws to try to differ CPI with rental costs. I suppose GDP has little to do with living standards or interest rates on consumer confidence??

You seem very confused about economics. CPI and rental rates are quite different. The rate of change in GDP does indeed have very limited correlation with interest rates or consumer confidence. Absolute level of GDP is of course quite unrelated.

[rororo123456]

after the ICAO assessment, normally, how long does an applicant wait for the call? (next stage or rejection)

[404 Titan]

etrang
You seem very confused about economics. CPI and rental rates are quite different.
It would also appear you are confused as to the relationship of rental prices (a component of housing costs) which is a major component of the Market Basket of consumer goods and services and the CPI (inflation).
It seems HK rents can go DOWN as well as up. Who would have thought it? According to your link rents fell 25% in 2008/9, and from 2008 to 2010 there was still a net decline despite a 22% increase in 2009/10.
You sit here and accuse CB of cherry picking housing rental figures but you are guilty of exactly the same thing. The fall in rental figures you quote occurred during the Global Financial Crisis which is hardly representative of long term rental trends. The reality is that rental rates in Hong Kong from 1999 to 2009 increased by 13% according to official HK government figures. Since 2009 rental rates have increased a further 22%. That represents a 37.86% rise in rental prices since 1999.

Voiceofreason
Do you even know what happened? Basically, nothing.
BS nothing happened. CX B744BCF's were gifted to AHK rather than be wet leased to them which was the past practice.
Yes, it was a while since the last increase, but we ended up getting another.
Speak for yourself sunshine. I got zip. The last payrise I got was in 2001. How about your ask an A scaler how many payrises they have had since 1993. :yuk:

[goaround737]

Apologies for taking the thread off-topic, has anyone attended a stage 2 recently. Care to share your experiences?

[ChinaBeached]

eTraing - as per most on this thread, read & completely comprehend before activating foot-in-mouth. To deny rental prices have trended nothing but up in HK over the recent history and will do so in the future is just dumb in the face of all the evidence & data. Same with you, refer to the Mark Twain Quote.

Voice - you have obviously shown your "company man" approach to this issue. You are tainted by your cadetship background as a HK National: coming from zero experience (correct me if I'm wrong) & without receiving a housing package. Hence you defend the slap-in-the-face increase & CEP in general. You use your history & background as the basis to argue. Likewise, I use mine as I have freely admitted many times.

Now, I fully admit that none of my other benefits are linked in any way to the CPI or any other COLA index or similar. But then, I don't see very many other companies, let alone airlines, actually have a pay which varies according to cost of living.

Really? That unknown company is called "CATHAY PACIFIC" and you will find it in the "Accommodation & Rental Assistance Policy" paragraph 4.4. You are playing semantics. The rent one pays is a direct impact on one's "cost of living", so call a spade a spade, and not a "digging tool" to try to smooch more company-man points.

To make assumptions based on some back-of-a-fag packet calculations using stats and figures you selectively include to make your point reeks of bloody-mindedness and over-simplicity. Of course you can have an idea of what the package is worth RIGHT NOW. I assume you would also factor in CPI in any other pay offers too, therefore reducing it's worth in the future? To not do so would surely be misleading?

a) I do not ever consider myself using the back of fags as you eloquently put. (I just thought it fun to play with semantics, as you choose to).
b) The figures I used & you ridicule are based on the exact same figures you have & also provided. The variables of time frame & percentage change in the rental market costs I also freely admitted to be a loose ball-park figure. You claim it impossible to look into the future to try to predict financial affects. That is your choice to throw your head in the sand. But to not look into financial histories and futures based on that history, the present market climate as well as a resultant future prediction is just stupid. I though more of you than to argue from such an irrational point.
c) Of course I would factor CPI into any other pay offers. I do not invest in share portfolios in Zimbabwe because of the out of control inflation. Ooops! Am I trying to mindlessly predict the future based on the very recent past, present & future? How silly of me! Am I misleading myself for using some minimal research & appreciation of the financial climate in Zimbabwe? Come on feller - get a grip and be honest with yourself.

You obviously seem to believe that CX management are great guys & wish to bank on them improving remuneration instead of actively seeking ways to drive them down. Have you read Warham's book? He could not of written what he did if they were not completely true for fear of litigation. But for incredibly hard fought efforts & threats of CC to just keep base salaries in line with CPI, you seem to think CX management will just do this out of a matter of course from time to time?? 404Titan's words should ring home - unless you also decide to ignore those facts or taint them by some other means.

denigrate CX's standards

Eh? I merely commented on CX's reduction of FFS training for (CEP) SO's that has reduced from 12 to now only 6 as I understand it. What other airlines do was never bought into comment. My point is that CX has lowered it standards in recruitment & training for nothing but GREED. So, are 12 x FFS better than 6 for training a kid with nothing but a fresh CPL? Are 12 FFS's more expensive that just 6? Again Voice, you need to get real about what your airline is doing & not seek back-slapping justification of "but at other airlines...". Saying that "at other airlines" they do this or that does not negate the fact that CX's own standards have been reduced. Again - wake up!

And there we have it - we finally get to the core of the issue. You are personally upset that the goalposts have changed. CX has widened the net to attract more people into the industry, and you are saddened because you are no longer one of the "privileged few" (I use that term loosely, so don't go overboard in criticising me for it) who gets invited for a DESO interview.

No mate - you understate the movement of the goalposts. They have been made so wide that a blind person in a wheelchair facing the wrong direction could kick a goal and feel "entitled" to do so. And you think that makes a person "privileged"! It took experience, knowledge, study & discipline to kick the goals in the former game that was being played. Previous to this discussion, I thought more of you. I thought you could argue with substance. I over estimated you. My time in GA was nothing special but for teaching respect for the industry and fellow pilots. And I will go to town on you for the term you used. The likes of you feel that the efforts other guys went through to get where we wanted to be is worthless. You think we deemed ourselves as "the privileged few". No. We deem ourselves as EARNING the privilege to join and contribute to aviation. Nowadays those with the experience that CX used to attract rarely apply and in fact turn CX down. There is a reason for that if you would only choose to open your damn eyes. Are you trying to tell me that if pilots with the experience that used to make them competitive for a DESO job applied today that these kids with zero hours, zero credentials & zero experience could compete? There is a reason they are being interviewed. They are the result of those with experience, credentials & hours not applying or taking the job. They are the CHEAPEST OPTION, not the best candidates in the market. These kids are the product of lower standards in recruitment born by an insulting remuneration package to those who know what airline pilots are worth. They are what's left from others turning it down or not applying.

Can you seriously blame the guys going for it?

Yes. Generally speaking they detract from the industry, not contribute to it by this entry means.

If it's no longer as tiresomely difficult to get in, how, again, is that your problem?

Let me replace "tiresomely difficult" to what those of us who once sat CX on a pedestal as "privileged to be considered". My problem? With your polarised view of CX's greatness, you refuse to see a bigger picture. You don't think other airlines see CX for what it was & what they are doing now? Personally I've had many cockpit conversations as well as layover bar chats with other pilots about CX's massive backward steps. And before you try, no:- not all conversations were started by me. Some of the most outspoken have been CX crews themselves. It is the problem of all airline pilots when they see their job and career spat on by greed and ignorance from airline management as well as new joiners alike. You on the other hand prefer to sit pretty & defend it, because in your eyes YOU are better off (naively so), despite the long term airline and industry effects of this behaviour.

What you were saying, however (or at least how it seemed) was that the entry level standard of cadets has been lowered. I dispute this wholeheartedly.

You're so very wrong. The ONLY avenue for ANY applicant to CX is via the CEP. A kid with zero hours is a cadet as is an applicant with 10,000 hrs as PIC of widebody jets. So by CX's deliberate default of course the entry level standards have been lowered!! Put your money where your mouth is. Let's put the average iCadet interviewee in the 747 Classic sim and get them to perform the entire sequence on raw data, taking off from Kai Tak, tracking outbound via the backcourse, climbing/descending turns onto VOR & ADF radials & bearings, engine failures and raw data ILS to go-around, then land. If standards have not been lowered, then what's the problem? That was the minimum standards "we privileged few" had to deal with as opposed to "What do your parents think about you becoming a pilot?" Still dispute this wholeheartedly bearing in mind that ALL new joiners to CX are "cadets" now??

You seem to be both attacking those who are making the offer (CX) and those who choose to accept it.

Yes. What's your point? Greedy & immoral management as well as those condoning it by acceptance.

This is a business transaction defined by market economics.

What a defeatist load of BS. How did CX management by the likes of TT and now JS or that chief pilot sell-out RH adapt their own salary packages by market economics? They cut new joiner remuneration & as a result receive massive bonuses. That is not market economics. That is sheer and unadulterated GREED. CX's record profits came prior to the CEP taking any form of affect to their bottom line. Again, remove your head from management's sand pit.

They make the choice they feel is right for them. It is egotistical in the extreme for you to assume that you know their needs/wants better than they do.

As the overwhelming evidence proves, nearly every CEP hopeful on this thread shows little to NO knowledge of the job they seek, nor has the minimal desire to read about it first, let alone seek first hand clarification from the source. The right choice for them is, by admittance recently, due a feeling of "entitlement" or that other paths are "too hard" despite never even trying. You personally condone this because you personally came from the CX HK National cadet scheme. I have NEVER mentioned or laid claim to know what is better for them. I KNOW what is better for the industry or what will make them better pilots, or even pilots with some iota of credibility.

[CharlieVictorSierra]

goaorund737 why are you apologising?

It has become more of an entertaining 1st year economics lecture. While it is quite interesting, it is becoming more a clash of heads between already employed or previously employed CX crew over what affects the rental rates etc etc. With all due resect gentlemen, it has become tiresome to read and extremely technical, most of which I dont believe many will understand or care to read anyway!

In threads previously, it also seems that a few players are taking constant digs at eachother just for the sake of it, pulling each others sentences apart time and time again to prove a point, very seldom admitting they are wrong, thus it looks like there will be no end to the arguments. Maybe it deserves its own thread then?! I personally do not think any of it is contributing to the subject of this thread AT ALL!

The apology by goaround737 to ask a direct question about the programme (which was ignored completely, whether it was a repeated question or not) is clear evidence of this...I dont think thats really fair.

Again, with all due respect, thus please treat me with the same respect.

[ChinaBeached]

CVS - the terms & conditions are technical in nature & very few if any iCadet hopeful has tried to seek any knowledge of them, let alone listen to both sides of the debate. Let's see if in the next 5 pages we get another "How do I update my file" or "How long does it take....." or "what is the salary / housing allowance / time as SO, etc...."

This argument is extremely well placed on this thread.

I have admitted I have been wrong in previous posts and apologised when it has been pointed out.

Not contributing to the thread?? How so?? You'll find find that nearly every question asked has been asked countless times previously. Those asking just can't be bothered to read - and yes there is a lot of sifting to be done, as with any research. But if this "passion" is there as they claim then a few hours shouldn't hurt? Least of all a direct call to CX!!!???

If this "argument" has done anything I trust it highlights the emotions this iCadet program evokes, the detriment to the airline industry it makes as well as the long term ramifications of one's decision to join CX under these terms.

Tiresome & extremely technical? welcome to long haul flying.

[CX-A330]

goaround737 and glassjacket

i am just arrived back home from stage 2/3 it was a good experience, mostly friendly staff exept one who was rude. Mine interview was general same as the ones previous posted except the order they were in. Technical question is hardest part for me, but i studied good to answer most question with confident. The HR side was easy just usual why do you want to fly for us crap etc etc. You can prepare for most of parts the interviews but not all of. I am not bother to write same things. Look back at tech/HR questions posted before it was similar to those.

CharlieVictorSierra

No it all makes sense to me and interest me to see what everyone in this has to say. I am learnt recently that its good to have other opinions rather than same agreement nobody is lean anything from that. Having that said, i am agree with the likes of CB and 404-titan. That is why this CP is means to end for me if am get offered. Voice you are "entitled" to your own opinion.. even if you are wrong pal!

CX-A330

[Wannaberightseat]

I have my stage 2 next week and I on my itinerary, there is no mention of sim check. Are Cx still doing a sim check for the advanced applicants (280 hrs) or has this been scrapped?

Regards

[Cpt. Underpants]

Rightseat

All intermediate and advanced applicants do a sim check.

BTW with 280 hours, you're "intermediate", 30+ weeks course.

At the end of the day, you're still selling out, and the Cathay Pacific you aspire to will NOT be the one you may eventually join.

Grow a pair and walk away from this insult. You deserve better.

[goaround737]

CharlieVictorSierra,

haha, no admittedly the apology was with a measure of sarcasm!

Nevertheless, i am thankful to the guys like Chinabeached who take the time to post and to fill us in on the pitfalls of the icadet course and what to expect in HK. At least there will be no surprises further down the line. Having weighed all of their feedback up, and with all the negative aspects to the contract/life in mind, I’m still not put off.

CX-A330

I’ve read all the previous posts, quite interested in what areas they concentrated on with you? I will PM you in a moment!

Wannaberightseat

I have roughly the same experience as you, i haven’t been given a sim session either. i believe this was sacked off in favour of flight grading some time ago, as were the computerised tests like the slalom etc (hasn’t appeared on my itinerary anyway)

[Wannaberightseat]

Thanks for all your posts.

As for all the positive and negative points on this forum (and yes, I have read all of them), I would still jump at the opportunity should Cathay offer me a position. No doubt a select few will tell me i'm mad and shouldn;t go for it. Sorry, its my choice and I have made it. :D

For the sim, when I was on stage 1, there were 4 guys on stage 2/3 and they did have the sim check which is why I was unsure when it didn't show on my itinerary. So, conflicting replies from Capt Underpants and Goaround737.

Has anybody been to Stage 2/3 in the last couple of weeks? If so, can you post if you did have the sim check please.

Regards

[Cpt. Underpants]

rightseat PM for you

[captain.weird]

A few years ago Flight Training Adelaide provided a training to become a commercial pilot, working 3yrs as an instructor for FTA and then join CX as a SO. For this training there was no selection stages or things like that. Maybe some tests before the training but not after. Does this course still exist?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Weird, that program has to be the albatross of disgrace on this whole wannabes program:

No, it's no longer offered. Why not?

CX reneged on its contract that HAD BEEN SIGNED AND AGREED TO BY THE COMPANY AND THE PROSPECTS.

CX tore them up. Yes, just like that. It's newest employees were told that there was a new contract and if they wanted to work for CX, these were the new T&C. No expat conditions (as contractually agreed), no housing (as contractually agreed) and yes, you can try and sue, but there will be no job for you if you try.

[Wannaberightseat]

Capt Underpants. you have a PM

[Krashman]

Cpt underpants,

When you speak of 'no expat conditions'.... Is that other that HKPLA that others were posting about? Or is there something else that has been removed?

[Voiceofreason]

Thank you CB for confirming what I should have done a long time ago - simply stayed out of your blinkered "I and all others like me are worth more" mindset. If you were actually a CX pilot, I might actually continue this debate, but most likely over a beer in HK sometime. As you aren't, I simply don't understand the anger that possesses you to keep on at this. You went for a position with CX, according to you, you turned it down because the package wasn't sufficient. Case closed, in my book.

MOVE ON!

I will sign off (once and for all this time) by simply saying this: no, my bosses are no angels. Noone is. However, I will say they are employed to do the best by the company, not themselves. They are there to ensure share-holder profit. I rely on this simple example of market economics to dictate that when CX salaries are not high enough to attract enough people, they increase them. They cannot pay the lowest salaries, because they would park planes. Just as they do for accountants, engineers, cabin crew and others. No doubt you will fling the 49ers book in my face and spout some conspiracy theory about how people in positions of authority are only there to safeguard their own wealth and security, but don't waste your time: I'm simply not interested in those arguments. If you want to go through the rest of your life thinking that CX management's only reason for existence is to continually make pilots' lives a living hell, go ahead. I choose to think CX management's reason for existence is to ensure a growing, thriving company continues to make good profit. One part of that is ensuring costs don't get too high, granted. But salaries can not stop growing so as to compromise the growth of the airline.

If anyone wants to continue this debate at any time in CX City, I'd be more than happy to oblige. There are many things that CX has done wrong, but on the whole, they look after their employees.

Last point - to whoever was asking about whether the HKPA could be spent on buying an overseas property - of course! It's an allowance for you to do with as you please. Guess what - you don't even have to spend it on property if you don't want to. It has nothing to do with housing.

Thank you and good luck to all those who apply.

[Captain Dart]

Which one of the stooges are you, V.O.R.?

Larry, Curly or Moe?

[ChinaBeached]

Is that is an official Star Chamber invitation?

I wonder how many ADL instructors were asked to come to CX City for a sit down chat about their contracts torn up?

49ers book a conspiracy theory? What an utter & indigestible insult to all those who went through & continue to go through the pure hell that it still is. And we wonder where the comment that pilots will always be their own worst enemy comes from with ankle-clenchers like this.

Voice - you've lost complete credibility.

[barney31]

CB,

No doubt you will fling the 49ers book in my face and spout some conspiracy theory about how people in positions of authority are only there to safeguard their own wealth and security



As Voice will probably not answer you, I will take the stand for an short moment.
You have to learn how to slow down and read the line. He said AND. Nowhere did he state that the 49ers-book was filled with conspiracy theories. Ease down and read slowly.

Furthermore, you are right, the package is a down right insult. So what, does Cathay need to offer in order make the package attractive for pilots like you IF you would aspire to fly with CX? Pegged to the inflation rate? Take into account the average mean of pay scales used for flightcrew at SQ, QF, EK, EY or any competitor? Measured yearly to the GDP and adjusted accordingly? Housing allowance of 20K HKD? An secured Provident Fund?

So far, I have seen many calculations based on the rental and property markets, global economy, regional economy and all does not add up for a living in HK as an SO. So, if a wannabe wants to join (and let’s just for argument sake assume he/she is an 27 year old, single, and has about 150 hours non-PIC.), what does he/she needs get offered? Does an offer like EK or EY do more justice to the potential commercial airmen?

I know this al hypothetical and off-topic, but as some of you gents are so willing to show the bad side of this, I would like to know what a potential viable solution actually is for an company like CX.

Because essentially you all tell the kids with SJS and like, that they have to walk away from the offer or else they are spineless idiots. So, let say this happens, and every wannabe is taken another road to fulfill his/her flying aspirations by doing hours in GA or the military. At CX, This will probably in turn make the upper level managers have to reconsider the package offered. This will lead to an even more disruptive rostering, pushing discretion to the limits, and other non-desirable situations, as it is already quite on the thin line and so in that perspective, it ought to mean the airline will have to either decide to quite some frequency on routes and start parking planes. Assuming they will not let it get to that stage, does the company HAVE to start to hire DESOs and or DEFOs? What package should they get?

Now, the DFO has given already away that the old terms will not be reinstated. So, there is no use of arguing about A-scales or B-scales or whatever. What alternative for the company is left? Again not looking from a wannabe perspective, but from a corporate one.

If you are prepared to answer the above, I reckon you will gain more understanding without too much repeating yourself. As some of these “kids” are by far not up to level you argue or bring forward your arguments, it might be an alternative route to bring your message across. Just my 2 cents worth.

I reckon, the ones who actually do understand from what angle you are coming, are NOT on this thread or are reading it from the sidelines with nothing to add. Some will try to engage in the thread, but it is not something wise to do with someone like yourself who has a hardened (albeit realistic) stance towards the CPP.

Once again, you and some others made perfectly clear what a wannabe must do before he/she even considers of joining a company like CX. That much has been said, but what does the company have to do in order to keep the recruitment alive? Or is that of non-importance for the topic at hand?

It is not meant to be sarcastic or cynic, I really do not know the answer. I just would like to see what someone else has to say for the other side of the spectrum. We know what the bad side is. There must be an good side. More importantly, how does an company like Cathay work to the good side IF it is even possible to do so?

You did mention that someone needs to defend his position on why he/she is in favor off taken up the package. True, when making the decision to accept or reject the offer it is important to factor in all possible perspectives, facts and long-term issues that one can find. However, regardless of the all of the above, it is up to every individual to decide what to do. It is no problem to burn down someone from an anonymous forum. However, if you want to have a constructive and lively “debate” as you stated before, you definitely need to show more than just shoot-to-kill critics. If you could display different styles of reasoning, it would help the audience that you are capable of interacting with a more objective view. Although you can keep on burning people on here individually by needling, making fun of, etc, the constructive part of your statements will eventually (and unfortunately) be pushed sideway, because it becomes too personal. I am ASSUMING that it is not the message you would like to bring across, because I am ASSUMING you want to show the world that this company has become one of the worst airlines to work for as aircrew with the current standards(or somewhere in the vicinity of that statement). By needling you do not attack the argument, but the person and therefore your argument regarding the CPP as valid as they are, lose momentum and that is a pity. If it is your intention to just have rants, I stand corrected and will step aside.

Nevertheless, keep telling your version of what is the reality, but do remember that this forum is indeed with spineless kids with SJS, and some will not be able to argue as lively and vividly like you do. Most of them will probably lose the interest of reading your information around it and still will apply to CPP, and if offered an cadetship, accept it, regardless if they are called spineless or gutless.

Yes, you and others have “forewarned” the newbies and all that comes with it. Unfortunately, the world is not the same place as it was a view years back and using the “cold hard” facts is not intmidating to many spineless kids with SJS anymore.

You can keep on arguing and telling the same story in the same style, but at one point –in this thread-you are running around in a hamster-wheel. Is that really worth your energy and time?

Once again, it is not meant to be cynic or sarcastic to anyone personally, all I would like to see for a just a brief moment whether there could be a positive constructive side or it is just a rat-race straight down to the gutter and in an couple of years, CX will be an mere memory?

Ofcourse if you want you can bash me down too and I will lose my credibility, dignity or whatever. So be it. Then again, I am not out to bash down you, I merely am somewhat intrigued by your STYLE of writing and want to try to have some insight about what makes you and others write in such an hardened style. I know that the gloves came off a long time ago on this thread, so I reckon I will try the softer approach for once. If it needs to be this “hard” way, no worries, I will just move nicely along and leave the fighting for the grown ups.:ok:

Barney Out.

[yep_ok_whatever]

I have to agree with Barney. I for one try to ignore this thread except for a few snippets here and there. At most I come here for entertainment to watch everyone bash each other over the head. I prefer the real stories through PM's. They are much more balanced and coherent.

Just a whole bunch of repetitive ranting here, like five year olds who have drunk to much coke at a birthday party.:}

[Captain Dart]

Good news, however EK only takes experienced crew for its expat package. Maybe an option for current CX crew frustrated at slow command times, the 'doom and gloom' that seems to be always spruiked by management, or the idiotic based-tax situation.

CX has now positioned itself as 'King of the Kids', and is only interested in starry-eyed wannabes with little or no experience, who Emirates would not touch with a barge pole.

[404 Titan]

barney31

So what, does Cathay need to offer in order make the package attractive
Re-introduce full expat terms for iCadets. Let’s make it quite clear, iCadets are on “B” scale pay just like we are on. It is the housing allowance and the children’s education allowance that needs to be brought back to make the package acceptable.

Under the current expat terms a DESO for the first two years is on 50% of the full rental allowance, which in November is HK$32,950.00. After two years it goes to HK$65,900.00 as of the November figures. Once you’re an FO with eight years of total service it rises again to HK$84,700.00 and as a captain it rises to HK$103,500.00 as of the November figures. These figures do vary on a monthly basis because they are pegged to the HK Government Rental Index. Once you sign a lease though your allowance is frozen for two years which is the term of your lease.

The company did introduce an education allowance for iCadets from FO and above a few years ago but it is only for schools in HK. Under full expat terms, the education is available from when you join as a DESO and can be used for education outside HK. Why the company has chosen to only let the allowance be used for education only in HK for iCadets is a mystery to me because at the end of the day it is a no additional cost item to pay for education outside HK. Infact it is often cheaper because of the % paid for overseas schooling, exchange rates and the extremely high cost of schooling in Hong Kong.

Now having said all this, I can also see an argument for an apprenticeship period so the company isn’t out of pocket for the cost of training iCadets. What form this takes is open for debate. My proposition would be to increase from 2 years to 5 years the time an iCadet who came through the long course is on 50% of the full rental allowance. An iCadet who came through the advanced course, 4 years and someone who came through the transition course, i.e. the equivalent as a DESO, the normal 2 years. In exchange for the increased housing the company would abolish the forgivable loan after 6 years of service.

There has been a distinct lack of interest for the iCadet scheme, especially for the transition course. The company has already had to improve the iCadet package three times to try and attract people, i.e. education, HKPA and the forgivable loan.

[Zarata]

Hi guys, are there anyone going to have 2 stage interview on 28/11? Please PM me and we can arrange a meet up before head.

[Brafton]

Hi everyone,

Not to detract from the spirited conversation in this thread. I just wanted to see about getting some information. I've been a silent reader of this forum for close to a month now. Lots of good information!

I'm currently preparing for the stage 1 icadet interview which will be in HK. I haven't received any info about when this might take place just that CX asked me to confirm willingness to travel to HK for the interview.

I'm told that the Stage 1 is a bit different in HK than it is in other locations. I'm asking someone who is knowledgeable on this subject to send me a pm if they wouldn't mind answering a few questions of mine :). I'm also (obviously) interested in the whole current interview process so anyone willing to share some of that information is well is also greatly appreciated.

Best of luck to all on this forum in meeting their professional aviation goals!

PS: Many apologies for the US english!

[Flight100]

Folks, I'm seeing a lot of posts about how the iCadet program has gone down hill and is an insult to applicants, etc... etc...

I'm confused at what program you are speaking of. If you are talking about the International Cadet Application scheme, it is the same scheme used since 1988. It is the same as the local scheme used for many years, just opened to international cadets in 2009. At the time, it was never intended for anyone with lots of experience. The company saw that they could quadruple the amount of applicants by opening it to the rest of the world, and potentially get applicants who had a little more experience (as GA and training in Hong Kong is rare and extremely difficult). Cadets were never offered expat. All cadets have been local employees and knew upfront there was no housing allowance for them. Actually, the program has only gotten better as locals are now offered a $10K HKPLA.

What confuses me...when all of you applied to cathay in the passed (during the DEFO times), the cadet program was there. They were taking on the same types of applicants; people with little or no experience. You didn't seem to have a problem then, so why now do you tell applicants they are sell-outs, or stupid, or spineless (could go on for days with the insults thrown here). I'm not an applicant, but just a reader from the sidelines who is looking at both sides of the argument.

404 Titans - Again, Cadets never had expat terms. They are now, however, offered a HKPLA. From my understanding, there is a program in place similar to what you are saying for an apprenticeship. The forgivable loan, an estimated $210K AUD, is what cathay pays for the complete training of the 61 week course in Adelaide. For those who are on the 6 month advanced entry course, they will receive half of that money as a bonus when back in Hong Kong. Makes sense! Half the money given, as only half of the training is received. For those on Transition courses which only last 1-3 months, they are given 75% or more. 1/4 of the training is 3/4th the pay given back. Unfortunately, but understandibly, those who complete the full 61 weeks in Adelaide will not receive any extra bonus in Hong Kong, as the loan paid for the training. After 6 years of service, this loan is abolished and the cadet owes nothing.

Captain Dart - EK and British Airways have the same types of programs. British airways through a school in UK and EK through a school in Spain (they used to train their cadets at the same school in Adelaide that Cathay currently uses). Similarly, EK has recently opened their school to international cadets as well AND have added that they will accept P2X time. (Sounds like a direct hit at cathay as they are one of the few if not the only airline to my knowledge that gives a P2X rating)

CB - Hello again. Hope all is well. I've spoken with you before on this subject. I really don't think any cadets here (or at least any sane ones) take your experience for granted nor do they count it as nothing. I would doubt anyone applies to cathay with the hopes of making the industry worse than it is. Many are just looking for a job opportunity, and with the shiny packaging it looks great, and to some extent, is still a good opportunity given your personal situation. I agree with you, and agree more as I've read along these posts, there are many applicants to lazy to do the research themselves. This is evidenced by some of the questions being asked. I also agree, I would have thought it an insult if I applied as a DEFO and ended up in a pool, only to be offered a TT course as a "local applicant". And you have every right to be angry at Cathay for that. But you and a few others almost make it seem as though applicants that don't share your similar experiences are not "worthy" of being a part of this airline. But everyone who joins has to go through the same flight training as any other pilot in the world. And not all of them make it as I'm sure you know. A few people seem to have this misguided notion that once accepted for the cadet program, they are a part of cathay. Not the case. Cadets do fail out of training.

I understand and appreciate you and others sharing the negatives about the industry. And for the cadets that want to research this, it will help them see both sides of the spectrum. But in the end of the day, when someone decides to apply based on their circumstances, it doesn't make them spineless, stupid, or any other insults that have been hurled on this forum. It makes them an applicant. Whether or not they take the advice is on them.

Also, a lot have mentioned that Cathay has lowered the standards to the ground and will take anything and everything as long as it has a pulse. This is also not the case. For every applicant on this forum only some make it to the next interview, and only a handful make it to Adelaide, and even then are not guaranteed a job. This isn't to deter anyone or make any applicant feel as though there is no chance, but keep in mind it is very competitive and Cathay does still have a standard they are looking for. Sure its not just by flight hours (I'm sure there were guys back in the day with thousands of hours who did not make it because they did not possess the qualities that cathay looks for in its pilots).

TO ALL APPLICANTS - CB and others are right about the lack of research done. The same questions are posed on these threads over and over. I'm not talking about questions such as recent interviews, as the interview process may change. But i'm so sick of questions such as "I have an interview, what should I wear?" or "Its been 1 month and I haven't heard anything. What should I do?" or "What kind of math and english tests are given?" Go back through the pages as these questions have been answered over and over again. With that being said, Good luck to all of you. If you have heard both sides of the argument and have decided that you still would like a spot in Cathay, then by all means go for it. Wish you the best.

TO THE OTHERS - First, this forum, whether you want to agree or not, is a type of research. For those applicants who log in and ask REASONALBE questions, let them. They are not mindless drones, becasuse they ask about cathay here. To me it seems they are looking for answers.
Next, the airline is a business FIRST. Not one airline has had a flawless career where all the employees were completely happy about everything. I too have shared the opinion that the "fat cats" in management take the money while leaving the rest with nothing. But I know this is not always the case. I do Cathay is looking to sustain itself in whatever way it can. I've said before, I think they are going to ride the iCadet program for awhile, until they have to reinstate the DEFO and DESO programs.

Good luck to everyone!;)

[i follow road]

Does anyone know when CP is coming to Vancouver for Stage 1?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Does anyone know when CP is coming to Vancouver for Stage 1?


...and right on cue, the next one arrives.

[404 Titan]

Flight100

With all due respect, as you appear from your verbiage to be in CX in a position that is probably responsible for implementing this scheme, it isn’t the same and you very well know it. There are a number of glaring differences.

1. From 1988 to 2009 it was only for locals. As you have said from 2009 it is open to everyone.

2. From 1988 to 2009 it was only open to applicants with little or no previous aviation experience. Those that had experience joined as DESO’s or DEFO’s on full expat terms. Since 2009 those that would have come through the DESO or DEFO route were conveniently renamed iCadets just like all the other iCadets with no experience. The only difference is they come through the “Transitional Course”, i.e. renamed DESO course. The company had to re-introduce DESO’s or should I call them Transition Course iCadets because the number of new pilots required over the next 5-10 years cannot be supplied through the ab initio iCadet scheme. For every ab initio cadet, 5 transition course iCadets can be trained.

3. The reason why CX didn’t in the past offer housing to cadets was because it was an “Expat” allowance and the fact they were from Hong Kong, they weren’t expats, just in the same way those pilots with CX that are based in their own country don’t get a housing allowance. Do you get it now?

4. Most cadets today aren’t locals but expats. They don’t have the family support network that a local has and therefore don’t have the option to live with family in the early days of their CX career.


I have flown with a number of cadets recently and without exception they are all doing it very tough. What has alarmed me even more though is the number that aren’t even budgeting for their tax bill because “Quote” they can’t afford to. If this trend isn’t looked at by the company we will see a number of iCadets in the next 12 months in a serious financial mess.

By the way, the difference between what the company pays to an iCadet after 6 years of service in the form of a forgivable loan plus the cost of their training in Adelaide plus the HKPA and what they would have got in expat housing as a DESO is recouped by the company in three to four years by not having to pay the expat housing allowance. From then on the difference is icing on the cake for the company and is coming straight out of all the iCadets pockets for the rest of their career. I will leave it to you to work out how much that is.

[ChinaBeached]

Just a whole bunch of repetitive ranting here, like five year olds who have drunk to much coke at a birthday party.

Interesting that but for their age, they are just as qualified to apply and interview for CX.......

Repetitive? I'd happily wear that badge as opposed to yellow-bellied, spineless, ignorant, naive and a sell-out. I'll repeat that: I'd happily wear that badge as opposed to yellow-bellied, spineless, ignorant, naive and a sell-out. Therein I'm repetitive.

Barney & Flight - I appreciate the words. We can debate in a civil manner (preferred) but I trust you are open to opinions that may differ from yours and defend yours with facts, that's all. As I've written, you have to fight fire with fire sometimes. Granted that I often up the ante with a flame thrower..... No denying it. Kids like "whatever" ask for advice as to how to get into flying not via the cadetship. He rejects the answer completely as being "too hard" and his sense of "entitlement" is the over bearing character trait he demonstrates. I make no apologies for calling a spade a spade with him & the like who have gone before.

As I just wrote to one guy with the courtesy to ask from some info via a PM, you have to look at who profits from the decisions being made. CX came from record profits as they introduced the CEP. Profits were better than they had ever been in the company's history. With the CEP plan, who gained, who lost and who did it? That is the key to understanding most "business" decisions in any industry. Company stooges cry it is a just cause to keep the airline competitive. What a joke.

No, aircraft will not be parked - and if they are it will only be for a short time as CX drive up readily available and quickly trained pilots to get them in the air. To do that they will have to attract those pilots. It is blatantly obvious that this package does not.

CX paid very well and the interview was revered throughout the airline pilot world as the toughest to pass. CX therefore attracted competitive and well qualified people, and they were profitable - over $14 BILLION HKD worth of profit.

No, these kids don't see themselves as being detrimental to the industry. They are told it, they have it explained why, but they actively choose to ignore it. What they see and how they act is refelctive of the choices they make and maturity they show.

Not all pilots go through the same training. New iCadets receive less training in the sim than their DESO counterparts with many 1000's more hours: from 12 down to only 6 full flight sims. DEFO's do not need to do as many sectors as do promoted SO's. No, CX has created an out of balance world that only answers to one God: greed & money.

The original cadetship was designed for CX to "give back to the community" and support the "local community of aspiring pilots". Only as recently as earlier in the year RH quoted this in an update. CX used the cadetship's original good intent & twisted it for greed. Plain and simple. The cadetship was the road and the Racial Discrimination Ordinance (RDO) the vehicle.

Those same people defending this CEP are the ones who in the very near future will be crying "we should all stick together" and "pilots are their own worst enemies". They will complain about the poor hotel standards, crew meals and FDTL's, all the while believing it was not them or paved the way and endorsed it all. And so the spiral continues.

You can't see if you refuse to look.

[Harlok]

Titan,

I have flown with a number of cadets recently and without exception they are all doing it very tough. What has alarmed me even more though is the number that aren’t even budgeting for their tax bill because “Quote” they can’t afford to. If this trend isn’t looked at by the company we will see a number of iCadets in the next 12 months in a serious financial mess.




I appreciate all the posts in this forum, so I mean no disrespect at all but I just want to point out that I have been living in HK for almost 10 years with a salary package more or less the same as the one offered to the newly hired "iCadets", just some extra bonuses from time to time. I know a number of other expats with very respectable jobs here living on less than what I make and being comfortable with that. I assure you I am in no financial mess and I do not live in a cage. In fact I live quite comfortably, I just dont live on or anywhere near the Peak. The mean salary in the company I work for (about 100 local people, roughly half skilled workers and half office clerks/managers) is HKD 16-17k a month for 13 months. They all seem to do fine although most expats including me would find the houses they live in way too inadequate in terms of space. By that I do not mean CX pilots should make HKD 17k a month, but i just wish to put things a bit in perspective.

BTW, like Wannaberightseat I would appreciate any input about stage 2 interview esp math test and technical interview (i know some posts here have covered this issue but an unpdate on what has been asked in recent interviews and if the math test has remained the same would be great). Also, there seems to be no aptitude test (joystick PC games) anymore, am i correct?

[Flight100]

404 Titan
The first line did send a smile to my face. To clear things up, no I'm not a part of Cathay. As I stated I am not an applicant and I'm definitely not one of the BIG BOYS that put the iCadet scheme into play. Lets face it; if I was, I wouldn't be on pprune writing. I would spending my bonus check money ;)
I don't disagree with you. What we are saying is similar. The only difference I had was what the iCadet program was. iCadet was started before the implementation of TT and AE courses. The majority of people applying to this program are pilots with little to no experience (less than 200 hrs flying time). It has always been this way, even since 1988 when it was just locals. To be fair, there were local cadets (and by local it just means HKID) who did have in excess of 300 hrs who still took this road. AE and TT courses were not available at the time. What I was saying earlier is the BASIC iCadet program is still serving its main purpose. Even if shorter courses were not available and everyone had to do the 61 week training course, it would still attract the same types of people whether or not they have a HKID; pilots with little to no flying time. And for someone in another country with no experience, this seems good (on the surface). I see where you are coming from about the TT program. And as I mentioned, I would feel insulted, if I went for DESO/DEFO, and then got offered this course on local terms. I asked in a post awhile ago. Who are you upset with? The cadets who still have little to no experience and are applying to Cathay, the same way the cadets have been since 1988? Or the DESO/DEFO poolies that have made the decision to accept the Transition Training Course terms and give-up their expat benefits.
I'm figuring you are in CX. Now I will admit to you, most of the info I have on Cathay is just from doing research and speaking with a few friends who have gone through the cadet program. And no doubt there are cadets who are finding it difficult in Hong Kong. But something tells me they did not do a lot of research before applying. Even without a family base in HK, Cadets are still making it. For every cadet you talk to that says he/she is struggling to save for taxes, I'm sure there is one who is doing just fine. Furthermore, if the local HK population can make it with an average income of $15-20K HKD, I'm sure a cadet with $45K will be fine. As said before by many, the research must be done. It's not impossible, but some will have to scale back from the lifestyle that they are accustomed to. There are no secrets. Everyone understands, or at least I hope they understand, that they are joining under local terms. Even if they are expat by birth, Cathay will recognize them as a local. The homework needs to be done before they apply.

CB
LOL I have read some of the posts and I agree fight fire with fire. For some, if you have anything better than a flame thrower, USE IT. ;) However, as I've stated before, I don't the rest of them are sell-outs. As you have written, if people disagree with you that's fine. And they are free to do that. In your post you call those people "yellow-bellied, spineless, ignorant, naive, sell-outs" just because they choose to continue their interview process. As I said earlier, the current cadets with little to no experience are no more sell-outs than the ones employed by Cathay when you were applying. And during that time when Cathay had its great profit, Cadet pilots were there.
We both know Cathay is a business and they will do whatever they can to save a quick buck. There isn't one airline out there that wont do that (if there is please let me know ASAP so I can get that resume ready lol) At this point, Cathay is trying to recruit everyone through the cadet scheme. EVERY cadet will have to learn to become local. Some will find it difficult, while others will manage very well (that all depends on the person). I still think that Cathay will ride this as long as they can until they are forced to open up the DESO/DEFO positions with expat benefits. But they will try to save as much as they can for as long as they can.
So again I ask anyone, who are these words meant for? Who are you upset at? Is it the cadet pilots with no experience that have been applying since 1988? (obviously they found some success with this, or they would have stopped this years ago). Or the DEFO/DESO poolies that have decided to take a Transition Course on local terms?

On a side note - I am curious to know what the cadets from 20 years ago think about the current program today.

[buzz85]

After looking through (parts of) the forum, I am interested to locate an active post-er who is currently a cadet with the programme, a recent graduate and now employed, or an SO employed for a few years with CX.

(If you have just posted and I have failed to see this, then I apologise.)

I am currently working my way through the recruitment process, just passed Stage 1. For some background info on me, I am an approx 1000hr CPL with a business degree. In saying that I feel I will be competent to make a decision ONE WAY OR ANOTHER about CX and the programme itself, once I have been through the recruitment process and if offered the opportunity. With this, I have not yet made my mind up and am setting out to try and gather concrete facts about CX, Hong Kong, life in, cost of living, etc......not just opinions. In short, the basis of my post is to simply try to collect some RELEVANT information from someone who is or has been DIRECTLY INVOLVED (and obviously successful) with the programme and the company, but obviously not recruitment or management (as we will hear from these people in the interviews).

No disrespect to any posters, but its tough to read all of the opinions within this thread and truly understand if they are educated via experience with the programme or simply outsiders with an opinion. Further, I do appreciate that I can sift through the forum and possibly find answers to some of my questions, but I am unsure if these answers are still valid (obviously depending on posting date) and if the author is credible (ie - sifting through numerous posts to discover their experience, etc.)

I do not need to hear that, if I am successful and do accept:
-I will live in poverty (unless this is quantified in some manner - ie cost of living figures, etc)
-That I will waste 5 years and still have a frozen ATPL (unless this is quantified in some manner - ie direct experience having left CX with only the P2X hours and trying to get recognition elsewhere)
-The program is an insult to all pilots

If you can justify the above statements with credible info, I am happy to listen.

Obviously there are many factors that make a business successful from management down to the front line, but there has to be some belief that there is good in this company and the programme exists to position the company for success in the future.

I believe everyone has an opinion and you are entitled to yours. In my case, though, I would just like to try this avenue to garner some facts about CX and the programme that do not come straight from CX themselves, and even HK, so that I can form my own, somewhat informed, opinion.

Thanks!

As the homepage of PPRuNe states:
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[404 Titan]

Flight100
Who are you upset with? The cadets who still have little to no experience and are applying to Cathay, the same way the cadets have been since 1988? Or the DESO/DEFO poolies that have made the decision to accept the Transition Training Course terms and give-up their expat benefits.
I’m actually not upset with any of them. I’m upset at the company for offering it in the first place. Also for the record out of the 62 DESO's in the hold file since 2008, 61 knocked CX back when offered the new iCadet package not once, but twice.
For every cadet you talk to that says he/she is struggling to save for taxes, I'm sure there is one who is doing just fine. Furthermore, if the local HK population can make it with an average income of $15-20K HKD, I'm sure a cadet with $45K will be fine. As said before by many, the research must be done. It's not impossible, but some will have to scale back from the lifestyle that they are accustomed to.
What you seem to be failing to realise is that locals have a support network that expats generally don’t. They generally live in places and conditions you and I wouldn’t and eat food you and I wouldn’t eat on a prolonged basis. Expats generally come from countries where the houses/apartments are bigger and we eat food that is generally more expensive. The whole basis of the expat housing allowance was to attract experienced pilots to CX and allow them to live in Hong Kong in conditions similar to what they would expect in their home country. I’m sure there are some cadets that are living very frugally on what they are being paid. They reality is though I fly with more than my fair share of them and the numbers speak for themselves. Whether this is because they didn’t do enough research is debateable. I personally think it is more to do with immaturity and lack of money skills. One day they have very little money and the next they have what appears to be a lot and don’t know how to handle it.

I am aware that when the iCadet scheme was introduced it was only for ab initio candidates. This was mainly because it took some time for the HKCAD to approve the advanced and Transitional courses. The original iCadet scheme had no HKPA, children’s education allowance or the forgivable loan. While CX refuses to admit it, “suitable” applicants particularly for the Transition Course, have been and continue to be thin on the ground. To entice more applicants especially for the Transition course, the HLPA, education and the forgivable loan were introduced. What would have been more sensible would to just call Transition Course iCadets what they really are and that is DESO’s and pay them full expat allowances. CX will say they can’t do that because of the “Race Discrimination Ordinance”. As I have mentioned before the RDO doesn’t apply to cadet’s v DESO’s as cadets were and still aren’t employed based on their race, but because of their right of abode in HK and now because of their experience as in the cases for ab initio and advanced course iCadets. CX has never employed cadets based on their race therefore the RDO isn’t applicable.

Ideally I would like to see all cadets get what I have when I joined CX. I am also a realist and understand this may not happen. I believe CX should stop the charade with the iCadet program and call each candidate what they really are and stop hiding behind the RDO, i.e. they are either a cadet if they have little or no experience or they are a DESO if they have significant experience. Pay full expat allowances to DESO’s and pay the HKPA to iCadets until they have completed a fair return of service.

[Harlok]

@Buzz85
like you i passed stage 1 and icao english test too so i cannot answer you regarding how i feel about being a SO at CX. For some reason it seems that once people land a job as SOs they stop reading and adding to this forum until after many years, when they come back resentful towards new cadets.

I can give you some ideas about what to expect should you move to HK though. I am not sure if you know these websites already, i list them anyways just in case:

Expat community forums (non-aviation related)
Hong Kong Expats - Hong Kong Apartments, Expat Classifieds, Forums, Serviced Apartments in Hong Kong :: Hong Kong GeoExpat (http://hongkong.geoexpat.com/)
Hong Kong Expat - Hong Kong apartments, expat relocation, Hong Kong serviced apartments, Hong Kong property, Hong Kong property for rent, apartments for rent (http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/)

Major real estate companies/websites:
Hong Kong Property, Apartments, Homes, Real Estate for Sale, rent and lease - Square Foot (http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/)
Property Agency in Hong Kong - Midland Realty (http://www.midland.com.hk/eng/)

there are 4 main types of houses in HK -
1. buildings for the "locals" (with rents mainly subsidised by the government), I do not recommend you staying in one of these places although some are better than others,
2. newer buildings with "clubhouse" facilities which are normally rented without furniture but with built in kitchen and bathrooms,
3. "village houses" in the new territories they are all the same except that some are newer and some older, they have 3 floors and a terrace on top of the last floor and every floor is 700 square feet, some have a small garden or courtyard at the ground floor,
4. extremely expensive villas/apartments.

On a CX SO income you would probably live in either category 2 or 3 of the above. Besides HK island, popular expats areas are Discovery Bay (very close to the airport but bear in mind that cars/taxis are not permitted there, there are buses and ferries that take you to other destinations in town), Sai Kung (if you like water activities that's the place for you), Yuen Long (there are some rare reasonably priced "villas" with gardens, check Fairvew Park listings on those property websites) and Tai Po for village houses.

HK IS an expensive city, however bear in mind that the price of most things (food, non-major-brand clothes, household items) tends to be cheaper than in Western Europe. Only the housing market is very expensive, but there are plenty of ways to keep the monthly rental below or around HKD 10k a month and living in a decently spacious flat if you move out of the central area (HK island/TST). Personally i live in the new territories in a 690-700 square feet house and the building has a "club house" with an indoor and outdoor swimming pool, a gym, 2 tennis courts, 2 badmington courts, kids playground, dogs playground, a small supermarket, laundry.. and i forgot what esle. It's all downstairs all i need to do is take the lift. I spend HKD 9k a month, utilities excluded, but the landlord pays for the management fees. I have a car and it takes me about 20-30 minutes to go downtown and 20 mins to reach the airport, obviously if there is an accident on the highway it can take much longer. Public transportation is quite efficient so you don't really need a car and in fact I am considering not to keep a car if I manage to get hired by CX. Taxis are cheap at least to my Western Europe standards and they are everywhere, so if waiting and sitting on a bus or on the underground train doesnt sound good you can always hop on a taxi for HKD 15 for i think the first 2-3Km. Then its HKD 1.5 every 200 meters. You cant really go too far in HK, so unless they cheat you you wont spend a fortune if you go around by taxi more often than not as I used to do before i got a car.
Hope that helps on the HK cost of living side. I wish i could give you some insights about being a CX SO... but can't atm.:sad:

[yep_ok_whatever]

CB: Calling me a kid huh? How old are you son?:E

I ask about the negative sides of CX privately to the people I believe can give me the most accurate answers, in the most sensible fashion. That is why I ommited you from any correspondence.:ok:

And about the repetitive ranting, I wasn't just talking about you, I was also talking about others, you know, the spineless, gutless ones.

In addition, you may not have read to well into my sarcasm of previous posts, maybe re-read them like you tell everyone to re-read all the posts on this topic.

Seriously.....:cool:

[ChinaBeached]

Flight: my references and choice of words are directly & unashamedly aimed at the likes of this kid "whatever" who asks for facts, for advice & information, who does not do any research of his own and ridicules the information he has received. It is his type who (as he says) feels "entitled" to an airline career such as CX, and that other means are just "too hard".

That's whom I refer to.

I have swapped numerous PM's with those wanting information about the CEP and from my experience & from my point of view. They have the courtesy and professionalism to have a difference of opinion and support it outside of shear selfish "I feel entitled to it" character traits. Respect is earned, not taken via a cheap & nasty means that lowers the industry they seek to be a part of. Those with the professional backbone to research the facts, listen to both sides of the argument have far more spine than the likes of "whatever" and co.

My words are also aimed at those who deny the undeniable and willfully, knowingly and happily contribute to the lowering of terms & conditions not only at CX but as such are a detriment to aviation (airlines) in general. The selectively choose one side of an arguement unable to offer one miniscule of logic reasoning or based on facts.

CX seek to save a buck at the expense of standards, training and therefore safety. That has been proven. Name another reason for reducing training systems and skill training, especially for those who need it most.

Businesses have every right to look for ways to be more productive. But they have no moral right to do so at the expense of standards that directly affect safety: such as RP's, FDTL's, training systems, recruitment, competent rest facilities, etc, etc.

[barney31]

404titan,
Many thanks for your clear insight and time to give a well build statement of what should be offered to the Icadets.
If I understand it correctly, the essential line between a “bad”-package and a “decent”-offer is the housing allowance? Are most the other secondary conditions like the provident funds and education allowances (albeit only local schools) reasonably in “line”? Or do those conditions need to be reviewed as well?

I would agree on the most part, but I reckon that for CX, housing allowance is something that will be cut considerable as the overall staff expenditures would be rise to a amount that is not “sellable” to stakeholders and internal parties.

Let’s say the package is financially upgraded with the housing allowance to the standards of the DESO. If I use my “beercoaster”-accounting, it would mean that 250 entries per year would have an housing allowance collectively of 8.237.500,00 HKD, and that the second year of keeping this on the same package with 250 flight deck entries would mean the amount would be 24.712.500,00 HKD in about 2 years. There is quite some impact on the balance sheets. And this has to be backed up by the statement that "safety and quality" comes first, but unfortunately, it seems on "safety and quality" there is an boundary to use that argument according the ones who decide where to take this company....:(

Now, not looking at the rental markets which most likely will rise to even an higher level, and leaving aside the further costs for the company as the allowance will rise with more seniority and years of service, looking already at the figure above for the years, the company has to get it back somewhere on the WHOLE corporate line and “sell” it to the internal parties which in itself is already an tricky matter to do.

I can imagine this will cause a knock-on effect to other line departments such as Engineering, In-flight Services, Revenue Management, and others. The debate “who” or” what “is more important becomes very much alive and I do not think it will go very well past the “common-white-collar-workforce”(with the utmost respect to them!). Of course, I am very much speculating and by all means it is just one of the many outcomes. I am just wondering how CX is going to stay profitable when the break-even point will be harder to reach. But I am swaying way off topic here. Sorry for that.

All I want to state is that although I understand and agree with what 404titan is saying, I reckon it is not something that from an corporate (and political) point of view is NOT going to happen unless indeed, (like Dan Buster mentioned) Icadets are massively rejecting the offer and all terms for the B-Scale are reinstated. Nevertheless, I think in any way this means it will have a huge profit/loss-effect and so it even is harder to maintain a positive margin as a commercial airliner and eventually the company will have an greater RISK to lose its edge because the commercial cut-throat environment the company is moving in. It is somewhat discouraging to see.


Regarding the mystery why CX is not willing to pay for outside schools, I reckon that the company wants to use the schools in HK (rather than opposed to go overseas) has not necessarily to do with whether it is an additional cost or not, if you sent you kids to international school, it means either some part of your family will have to live with them. I think more than not a mother (or father) has some trouble to leave their child behind when they move to HKG. If one could choose to stay on a base, it would be different story, but as that is on hold and probably will not open anytime soon, the safest bet for now is let the kids join an local HK school and at least they have an “home” to go to instead in staying in an boarding school (what is also driving of an overseas school up for the company)with you have to rely as an parent on the capable hands of teachers and dorm-mothers. Not to discredit the people running an overseas international school, but you cannot help “immediately” when things go wrong because you might be on the other side of the world. But that is just my brain trying to connect the dots too.

Once again, 404titan, ChinaBeached, VoiceofReason, Dan Buster, and all others positive or negative, thank you for the statements made, hopefully it will help some to see what is at hand here and make their decision wisely and clearly… ;)


Barney Out.

[barney31]

Dan Buster,


You are incorect. If not 1 person took up this icadet package, the B scale expat package with full hosuing would be re-introduced immediately. They would have no choice, no matter what the DFO has 'given away'. CX back flips all the time.
Yes, CX is back-flips all the time, but that is an unfortunate part of ever- changing condition in an industry that is hard to forecast what will happen next. Unfortunately only a few “wise”-men had to make a business –decision that might have an impact on the global line. I do understand your statement and by no means have to go further on it, but I think some of the stakeholders will scratch their heads if they see that the staff expenditure level will rise exceptionally if you would implement the B-scale pack “immediately”. I believe it is just not that simple to “re-instate” any issue that might have an bigger impact on the whole corporate line…
Besides that, one always has a choice. It is depended on the person who is ALLOWED to make that choice even if that will take the company into another crisis… Just my 2 cents...;)


barney out.:ok:

[ChinaBeached]

Barney,

CX made over $14 BILLION HKD PROFIT - a record amount - with a remuneration package in place that held it as a (considered) world leader, all the while attracting pilots with excellent experience, credentials & knowledge. They paid well and attracted and then screened accordingly. Again, all the while making record profits. Greed. There can be no other word for it.

This is not as much a business decision as a means for a profit chase & back pocket lining at the expense of standards, safety and reputation. Legacy? Well done TT, RH and co. You and the cohorts effectively ruined the reputation of an airline well regarded as amongst the best, if not the best. You have increased the profits but look at what expense.....

[Flight100]

404 Titan
"They reality is though I fly with more than my fair share of them and the numbers speak for themselves. Whether this is because they didn’t do enough research is debatable. I personally think it is more to do with immaturity and lack of money skills. One day they have very little money and the next they have what appears to be a lot and don’t know how to handle it."
Couldn't agree with you more. As I stated, some will find it hard to live in Hong Kong and some will find it easier. And you are right. Expats would be accustomed to living in larger places and eating different types of food. Which just reaffirms what I wrote earlier. Research needs to be done, and if applicant still feels as though they can make it, that is their decision. Doesn't make them any less of a person.
Next the forgivable loan did not come to attract people. CX found a loophole. As bonding of employees, to my knowledge, is illegal in Hong Kong, CX was able to offer a "loan" instead. That way if a cadet tries to leave (on his own accord) before six years time, he will have to pay back the loan. Therefore, its no longer a bond. Even better was to offer the shorter courses a piece of the loan as a "bonus".
And you are right. The RDO doesn't apply to TT courses as they have the experience and qualifications needed. However, it does apply to the ab-initio cadets. Therefore, they will never get expat terms.
I'm not sure of your length of employment at Cathay, but I'm curious to know if you have always thought the Cadet program was a bad/industry destroying idea? If so then I completely understand your argument. But it seems that people did not start writing about how horrible this scheme was until they opened it to international cadets, who also have the same credentials and experience as the local cadets of the past. You say you are upset at the company offering these terms, but they have always offered them to cadets. So I will rephrase my previous question. Are you against ab-initio applicants applying to Cathay, or is it the fact that people with lots of hours and experience are accepting TT terms and conditions? If its the latter then I agree with you. It is a shame to see someone with an ATPL and all of that jet time be compared with an ab-initio cadet.

CB
" Respect is earned, not taken via a cheap & nasty means that lowers the industry they seek to be a part of."
Very true, but as I've asked Titan, are you including ab-initio applicants in this group? If this is the case, were you against Cadet pilots when you applied for Cathay as a DEFO, or did that not start until international cadets were allowed? It's the same program it has been since 1988 and is no more/no less cheap and nasty as it was back then.
I do feel greed is a driving factor in what any airline/company does. It is sad, but that is the case. It's one of the problems that has caused the downfall of airlines in the USA.

For both:
I am actually asking this not to be a smart-ass, but because I really don't know. How has safety been affected because of the cadet program? The same types of cadets are being accepted, the same standard that they have had for years. And to say Cathay is anymore unsafe now because of iCadet program would be saying that Cathay was just as unsafe when only locals were allowed. And as you have all mentioned, Cadets are employed as SO's which mean they wont be allowed to sit right seat during the most critical phases of flight. But there are cadets that are now Captains at Cathay. Are they any less safe because they did not have any experience when they were hired? Has anything changed with sim times? Is there less training being given? I've heard that the students in Adelaide must go through Jet Transition Training courses and I'm wondering if Cathay has shortened sim training in Hong Kong becasue of the added sim time in Adelaide.

[barney31]

CB,

Very true, and I stand corrected, however, to make your statement a bit more accurate, I must state that you have used the ATTRIBUTABLE profit figure, which is overwhelming, but in order to give a more balanced view the OPERATING profit/loss figure is more important. This is significantly lower, because of the 14, 048M HKD, you have to subtract the hedging contracts, the one-off sale of shares from HEACO and disposal of the Air China Shares, Fuel, and other, you will “only” have an Operating profit of 9,465M HKD. This is indeed still an impressive figure, but looking at the downfall of 2008 when the company took an hit with an operating loss of 1,440 M HKD and “only” had an profit of 285 M HKD, it makes an slightly different picture. ;)
Nevertheless, it is still one of most profitable carriers in the world, and that is why the question begs why it is so hard to upgrade the offer.
Given that corporate greed is not something prone to this airline only. There are virtually nil carriers (at least none come to my mind), which will have no money-hogging management stooges.

404titan, Dan Buster, and ChinaBeached, I dearly hope that someone from the 3rd, floor or better yet, the 9th floor( and including the "taipans" at the Swire House), will read some of your postings gets an epiphany and will start something up. Who knows? There still might be some light left at the end of the tunnel… and if not, sooner or later, the consequences of going blind will not lead to be one of your happy endings.

On that note, I will leave the discussion here. I think everyone has had enough of reading through all of my mindblogs….

Godspeed to all who read this in whatever you decide to do.

Barney Out.:ok:

[ChinaBeached]

Flight: Against DEFO's? In principle, yes. It undermined the seniority system and allowed CX to reneg on promoting SO's, as well as management tearing up yet another clause of their contracts of by-pass pay.

Against the original cadet scheme for HK Nationals? No. It was set up and designed to promote the local HK community. CX is a HK airline and as such the local HK community should be shown some loyalty. What CX have done with this is just immoral and against their own words and definition of what the cadetship was all about.

Barney: I gave only the figures as quoted by TT in the document I mentioned. I did not go on to mention the approximate 70% pay increase the DFO has given himself over recent times, nor the fines the airline had to pay for CX management's illegal price fixing activities, nor the fuel hedging fiasco(s) that cost the airline millions.... All these (illegal) activities and guess what? They all received BONUSES for it!!! And then what? They cut the remuneration package for the future pilots. Immoral and greedy. Nothing more, nothing less.

One's past behaviour is the best indicator of one's future behaviour.

Aircargo Asia Pacific - Cathay Pacific pleads guilty to US price fixing charges (http://www.impactpub.com.au/aircargo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1831&Itemid=60)

Fuel hedging bets cost Cathay Pacific $1bn - Business News - Business - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/fuel-hedging-bets-cost-cathay-pacific-1bn-1242619.html)

(For the remarkable bonuses and salary increases management have given themselves, refer to the AOA publications - or someone else can give those details.)

[etrang]

I'd happily wear that badge as opposed to yellow-bellied, spineless, ignorant, naive and a sell-out.

No, beached, simply applying to be an i-cadet does not make one yellow-bellied, spineless or a sell-out (you have to have principles before you can sell them out). Naive - probably, and ignorant (at least about CX) Yes.

But it is the B scale pilots who sit back and do nothing (except whining or ranting on pprune) who are the real yellow-bellied, spineless sell-outs.

[etrang]

-You will live in poverty, the cost of living expenses for HKG are out there,

You will NOT live in poverty. The cost of living is out there. Do your own research.

And Harlok has provided some useful information on the previous page.

[ChinaBeached]

To me it does when one applies:
a) knowing full well the serious ramifications & pressure placed on one's potential colleagues at CX and willfully contributing to the lowering of standards in terms of standards, safety & training, and / or
b) selectively refusing to listen let alone appreciate how & why the overwhelming majority of pilots with the experience that counts (CX & other) know what the CEP means with regards to standards, safety & training for the airline & industry in general.

Financial security?? There is no denying that you may be able to keep your head above water in HK as a lone iCadet without dependents or (irresponsible) need to plan for a future. Save for a secure retirement? Save for a short term goal to buy a property? Plan to save to provide for a future family? Existing on (by the terms of the agreement) an ever eroding remuneration package, ie with reference to the HKPLA? The CEP offer is not sustainable for short or long term career security let alone financial security. Already guys have posted baring witness to actual iCadet accounts of being unable to even save for their tax bill and looking to run at the first given opportunity now that the realities of their error have sunk in. Therein lies the next massive headache for them. Run where? With what credentials or recognisable logged hours? With what money saved? A guy from GA, flying school instructor, regional / domestic airline or charter company with as little as 1 year experience & 500-1000 hrs TT is more employable than a 4-6 year CX iCadet on a widebody by legislation of license and log book hours. By pass pay? No, they ignore that contract term as well.

Job security? How many contracts do CX have to (illegally) tear up for you guys to get it? How many more "sign or be fired" ultimatums to lower your contracted terms & conditions have they got to do? How many more proven & public illegal activities have these guys pleaded guilty to & rewarded themselves with bonuses? How friendly & willing have CX management come to the negotiating table to discuss not pay rises, but simply keeping salaries on par with inflation alone?? (Only after threats of contract compliance and a long winded drawn out process only to throw AHK in the pilots' faces immediately afterward!!) Rostering practices?? Flight Duty & Time Limitations abused & changed continually for the worse, as endorsed by the C(X).A.D.??

How many times?? Never enough when you are ignorant, naive, spineless and a sell-out.

Too many of these iCadet wannabes only see the monthly salary as acceptable because most have zero appreciation of paying bills, rent or can even fathom the cost of a family on a single (iCadet) income, retirement or life's many expensive (!!) "what ifs". And as has also been proven here, they have all but zero regard or comprehension of the career they claim to be "passionate" about.

[etrang]

the overwhelming majority of pilots with the experience that counts (CX & other) know what the CEP means with regards to standards, safety & training for the airline & industry in general.

If you really want the situation to change, CB, its those existing CX pilots you should be talking to, not the wanabees. And if those pilots do agree with you, one has to ask; why they have done nothing to address this situation?

[ChinaBeached]

Research first etrang.... Research.....

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/458199-aoa-c-scale.html

(Many similar comments on other threads).

[ground to air]

Hey everyone,

Just got the green light for stage 2, which will prop be in January. Would really like to hear from anyone else who also just recently got their next stage email cause a study buddy is always agood thing to have.

Regards

And while I am here, with all due respect, this thread has lost its way quite afew pages ago, if it is a whinge or an anti icadet comment you want to make about this program that's fine, but why not start up your own thread where you can moan & groan as much as you like there, maybe it could be called 'I think CX icadet program is ****house' or something along those lines. I'm sure the clever ones out there will brainstorm something creative.
This thread is suppose to be for those seeking helpful information about the program & the steps involved, many of us know what we are getting ourselves into and that is our chioce & in our situations the program suits just fine. Now, whos up for abit of study...

[404 Titan]

etrang
If you really want the situation to change, CB, its those existing CX pilots you should be talking to, not the wanabees. And if those pilots do agree with you, one has to ask; why they have done nothing to address this situation?

And what would you suggest we do. Most of us here are already doing contract complience and the AOA has been trying to negotiate with the company about housing for the last 18 months. Before you answer the question I suggest you research HK labour laws and the rights of employees to take industrial action.

ground to air

While I personally dont condone some of the language used on this forum explaining the pitfalls of the iCadet scheme, they have the right to say it. If you choose to behave like an ostridge and stick your head in the sand that is your business but for your sake I hope you arent the first to complain about the costs of living here if you make it in.

[UnaMas]

Ground to air -

Hear Hear, this thread went off the rails by the same guys bantering backwards and forwards a long time ago.

And I also just found out I have been accepted to the final interview in HKG, no date as yet.

[ground to air]

404

Again, with all due respect, I have conducted my research and made my decision, and am fully aware of how to survive if I make it all the way, its not rocket science, and if one is able to get him/herself to that lvl of employment I am sure figuring out how to keep the roof over ones head will not be that much of a challenge.. after all, we are not a bunch of brick layers are we?
And yes, you are correct, everyone has the right to add their two cents, but helpful pro active two cents comments are what pple are after & not pages & pages of 3-5 personalities bickering nd tearing each others comments apart trying to prove they know the most or are the best.
Know before I am accused of bickering myself, I think enough has been siad on my behave, but I know there are afew out there that are just scratching to respond to my ostridge type attitude, Let's see if I can be proven wrong.

All the best guys.

[AQIS Boigu]

G2A,

With your attitude and language I am not surprised that you didn't get a REAL job in GA in Oz...but that's ok; why bother with GA when CX can come to the rescue...

[ground to air]

Aqis,

That's an ostridge attitude dont forget, and who is to say that I did not get a REAL GA job?

[Cpt. Underpants]

An "ostridge" "casts nasturtiums"

[boxerpilot]

Will be doing the TT stage 1 in HK on the 21st. next Monday. PM me if anyone else wants to link up. will be there from the 19th evening at Novotel Citigate.

[AQIS Boigu]

Boxerpilot,

Have you done your research?? - I am sure there has to be another job out there than CX; especially as a 39 year old with flying hours...you got kids and a wife?? CX is not after experience anymore...only young kids without hours...

[Cpt. Underpants]

Is 44 years too old? For this program, almost certainly. Sorry to say this, but at least 15 years too late, maybe more.

Is there a housing allowance? HKD10K/month. Hopelessly inadequate - unless you're happy living in 500sq ft squalor in a VERY local area. Think "projects".

Salary on course? No. Pocket money, like for your teenage kids. Most of the children on course (unlike you) have no overheads - except Noxema and Clearasil.

A suggestion: read this entire thread, beginning to end, for your answers. It will take some time, but a small investment in what could be a disastrous decision.

And prepare to be flamed.

[FIRESYSOK]

When you reach age 50, you can get to slide into the RHS and put your Cessna skills to work on the tripler. Meanwhile, you've wasted many years of your life in a one-room shanty with Formica countertops and a glorious view of the least HK has to offer.

Why still, at age 44 are you only interested in cadet programs? There have been many, many opportunities for you to make a move into the piloting profession in the USA. Be prepared to answer this question. There are twenty-somethings in the LHS of regional jets making 75K USD per annum, paying their loans back, and you're only interested in cadet schemes. Interesting.

[boxerpilot]

Well u could say I am too old too late. But essentially I am retiring from the military with a pension and the wife has a job in Perth with the kids in school there. It's not a DEFO scheme but DESO no doubt. Disposable income from rental properties so essentially looking at a 25year career in CX from 40. Guess its no A or B scale. But military hours fast jet isn't much in the World of heavies unless I wanna fast tracked jon in a Low Cost Carrier as a Direct Entry SFO on A320s. Still undecided. Keep the views and comments going guys. I hear u.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Candidly, you're not likely - given your (advanced) years and (lack of) experience - to get a look in.

Do the math. It doesn't pay off for CX.

Again, candidly, you've got SJS and need a detox.

[Bird-dog]

Bonanza41,

I went through the Cathay recruitment process for Ab-initio about 2 years ago. I got all the way to Hong kong for the final interview stages but wasn't successful. I've just turned 38 and they didn't seem to have a problem with my age. I guess the best way to find out is to apply and if you don't get a shot then you've got your answer.

Although i was understandably pissed at not getting through, in hindsight the issue of no/meagre housing allowance living in a very expensive (accommodation wise) city and a poor pay scale (relative to every other pilot I'd be flying with) made me realise that there are perhaps there were better options out there.

Make sure you do your research into the cost of living in HK and whether you'll be happy scrimping and saving at this stage of your life. Regardless, I feel your pain and good luck with whatever you decide.

Bird-dog

[AQIS Boigu]

Boxerpilot,

You seem to be quite sensible (and well balanced) about this whole thing so if you allow I would like to comment the following...

- your income situation is different to the other kids but should you really use your investments to subsidize an airline career?
- you might be able to commute to Perth if you are on the right fleet (B777)
- there won't be a Perth base later down the track
- time to upgrade to FO will be 4+ years

If you go to JQ for 2 years and then move on you could be a captain at EK/QR by the age of 45 - you will not see a command at CX till you hit 55+ (and also consider the your income from your potential airline career if you compare CX in a shoebox vs. JQ + Middle East including a villa).

Please keep these points in mind - if you got more questions feel free to post them; mature applicants like you will get mature answers...at least from me...

AB

[am-rj-tbt]

how long does cathay normally take to call you once you have applied to the cadet program?

[ChinaBeached]

This is indeed a tricky question and one which we have not come across as yet anywhere on this or other forums. I doubt whether even calling CX could help you.

My best advice would be to do nothing. That means no study, no research, no reading anywhere else. I'm 100% positive that if you religiously check this website every hour someone just may....just "may" post this same question again very, very soon.

[Flight100]

:DTOUCHE! CB you win! HAHAHAHAHA mate that answer almost made me spit out my drink laughing.

For the one who asked that question, take a look back through the pages. That question/answer group is there a million times. I honestly think on some it says about 8 months and some have waited longer. Good luck.

[FL999]

8 months is low-balling it though. It can take up to 3 years to get a response. However I do know of some who got a call within a month.

[bangout]

Since March it has been particularly slow since they have been pushing through all the RAF's Ex-Mil chaps. This has 'clogged' (if you will) the civvie route, but its by-and-large clear now.

Hopefully things wil be picking up!

[seneca208]

hey guys, I have tried a few times to update my incomplete application with no avail. I am getting the error "The online application system is currently unavailable, please update your application information later." However, I have tried several times over the last few months and continue to get that. Anybody else have this problem?

tried emailing CX..no response.

[ground to air]

Hi everyone,

Would like to hear from those that have been through stage 2 and experienced the Math test exam. Some examples of questions would be great and your experience on the over all day and feedback would much be appreciated.

Cheers.
PM's are more than welcomed.

[ChinaBeached]

Right on cue.... And to think I thought it may take a page or 2?

Not responding to emails? Send them a text message. Again, best advice I've got. But don't call. No. Matter. What. What if they answer?!!!

[WhatThe?]

Well done CB,

Laughing my ass off!!
We should start a money pool for stupid questions! (and keep 10% of course!)

Keep em coming lads, need a good chuckle every day!

[keigorjai]

Good evening everyone. I have applied for CPP of CX in the Mid of July 2011. Just like other candidates, I have received a confirm letter from CX after application.

Here is the e-mail that I received from CX:
(Your application will be considered along with all other eligible applicants in your geographic area when we next select for interviews.Thank you for your interest in the Cadet Pilot Programme.)


But I do not hear anything from CX these 4 months.

Cause I have a friend who applied in June 2011, and he already did his 1st interview in Oct. Also, he got an invitation for the 2nd interview.

I tried to send an e-mail to the HR department about the progress of my application. However, the e-mail has been bounce back and indicated that the e-mail address has no longer available.

Here is the message:
([email protected] is no longer used for recruitment inquiries. Please email us at [email protected] or telephone +852 2747 8247 to reach our recruitment team.)

Then, I sent an e-mail to "[email protected]". It has been a week, but no one replies my e-mail. Then, I called the phone number today, it rang for 10-15 sec; then, someone hang up the phone.

Is there anything I can do now? In addition, I am now living in HK and my application indicated that HK is the first priority that I expected for my 1st interview, the U.S. is the 2nd priority.

I feel nervous of that because I also applied for the CPP of KA. And I guess I just ruined up my initial test which has been taken 12 days ago. (I think I did ok over all on the test; but I wasn't sure about the Math part. There were totally 15 questions and I only finished 11 of its, also, I wasn't sure if I got everything correct. However, I just do not received any call, in this point, I assumed that I have failed the IT) Therefore, I am kinda expected for the back up plan now.

[buzz85]

Just speaking from my personal experience, I believe that I applied online to CX in about Aug/Sept 2011, heard back from them within a month and was scheduled for 1st interview first week November 2011.

I did apply Advanced Entry, however, so there may be a difference in wait times between the 3 programs.

Seeing as they do it world-wide and seem to have many applicants, I would take the above timeline with a grain of salt. I'm not sure I would even subscribe to past posts in this forum as the demand or supply of applicants may have changed since that whoever wrote the last post of wait times.

Just rest assured that if you are competitive and a worthy candidate, they will get a hold of you. Even then, it seems like quite the in-depth process and from what a number of people are poating, there are some considerations to take into account, even if you are successful. If you dont hear back within a reasonable amount of time, have faith you will continue on whatever life path you are supposed to be on.

Following up ground to air's previous post, if there is anyone who has (recent) Stage 2 Interview experience, an account of your time in HK and the process would be appreciated.

[keigorjai]

Thanks a lot about your sharing. I think you might be correct, you have been waited for just a month for your first interview as you applied an advanced entry. It sounds reasonable that CX interviewed with candidates who has academic background related to aviation. Would you mind to tell me where was your first interview?

In addition, one of my friends who did his first interview in Oct. He also applied both KA and CX. He already received a call from the HR of CX (2 weeks ago) about the invitation of 3rd interview.

If I was correct, he did his 1st interview in Oct (This stage consists of the interview with 2 HR ladies, reasoning and numerical test, NO TECHNICAL interview included). His 2nd interview was in Nov 3rd or something, it was an ICAO English test. Then, he received a call about 1 weeks after that and invited into the 3rd stage of interview. But the HR told my friend that the date of 3rd interview is unknown in this moment. I don't even know why and my friend didn't ask either. What he has to do now is just wait for the further information from CX. However, my friend tends to be work with KA rather than CX (Just a personal preference). And he already go through all the stages of interview from KA and achieve an opportunity for the flight grading in Dec.

He said he will go to the 3rd interview of CX anywayz, but I know he is now just totally focusing on his flight grading of KA.

[boxerpilot]

Thanks AB,

Well noted points, that is truly correct with the situation. For guys out there who still have thoughts that you will see a pay increase or overseas basing, its not gonna happen anytime soon. Timelines for upgrades may be long now coming out of the GFC and with the new aircraft coming in, bums in seats are already a problem. I hear that the Check and Training department as well as the simulator instructors as maxed out.

Had my 1st stage initial for TT yesterday in HK. Basically for guys on the 14 week programme only require to do a 30 Question Tech quiz in 30 mins and the standard interview with HR and a Training Captain. If selected. They will fly u and accommodate you for 2 nights if you are flying from anywhere closer than Oz and if you are further, u are given 3 nights with one night to recover from jetlag.

Questions were the same in general with what was posted. I had the Airbus 340 model.

Things to note :
1. Know the Aircraft that's parked in front of CX city.
2. Know the plan for A350XWB and what it may mean to the Airbus operators
3. Who is the competition to CX and what would be its business challenges. Know what competitor airlines are buying and how that may impact business
4. HR will be very concerned with your views on the 'C' scale (not openly called that) salary and would want to know how you will survive on that
5. If family is not traveling with you - how will you manage fatigue with commuting
6. If you are with the military - Would you stay in the military if you were promoted tomorrow and why not
7. For guys with instructional experience - Why would you not consider a simulator instructor job as the package is much better - (Currently still in B scale)

AB,
Finally, Its not JQ but JS that I would be going to. Jetstarasia. The challenge operating out of Singapore next year would be the launch of Scoot from SQ as well as Airasia's partnership with Malaysian Airlines for a premium business airline (I think its called Caterham Airlines or the likes) Not to mention Qantas announcement to start RedQ in KL or Singapore. With all that competition planned next year. There will be contest with JS. All being said and done, it does intrigue me with the notion the EK will be looking for A320 Captains. But aren't there many out there as well? Do you have further insights into this process and what is the going rate for EK employment in terms of requirements and experience.

Oh yeah - They did make a mistake of making me take the Reasoning test by mistake. The HR lady thought it was required. Its still the Raven 1962 Reasoning test Set. Thats all i remembered as you are given 5 minutes to do set 1 which are 12 questions and 40 minutes to do set 2 which comprised of 36 questions.

For the older guys, age did not come up, but from some of the other posts, they seem to let the guys go through till the last stage and didnt take them. Well I will update the forum and see if all the 'rumours' that they cant find people to fill the seats are really true.

Keep the posts and comments going.
Cheers

[soundbite]

It's a stock-standard question......a lot of airlines ask that question. Air Canada asks how you plan on surviving in Toronto or Vancouver on $38k.

Stop sensationalizing.

[AQIS Boigu]

Boxerpilot,

Thanks for your reply - as you can judge yourself by the questions asked our own HR people are concerned if the C scale is working - therefore I really wonder if you should pursue CX if you got other options.

You have an excellent plan and strategy in place by looking at a quick A320 command in Singapore which is good BUT you can't bank on EK taking you as a DEC on a WB jet with A320 time in five years time - Etihad and Qatar will put you on their own 320s as a DEC and then you can progress to a WB command there. I believe your master plan to gain a WB command in the Middle East via SIN is definitely more favorable to a pilot with your age.

You are in the lucky position with your experience to be able to give CX a pass whilst the majority of the kids on this forum claim the can't (although they can, they are just too lazy).

btw...for the Canadians - I rather live on $38.5k in YVR or YTO than HKG...at least it's home...plus AC's payscale goes up quite rapidly after two years whilst CX's doesn't.

Good luck,
AB

[Shirazmerlot]

Just a curiosity, is Cathay pacific still inviting applicants for interview?

[ChinaBeached]

There are only 2 ways of finding this out definitively:
1) find a lucky penny & go to creepy corner shop guy and buy a bar of chocolate. Open it. If you see a Golden Ticket - hey presto!
2) empty a box of Corn Flakes. See if a packet is at the bottom. Open it. If it's a 6 piece lego train set and not a CPP invitation then you have truly been successful.

Lastly, I would avoid their web site and any formal communication with the CX recruitment department to gain any information. Of course, disregard other information on this forum that you seek an answer from as well. Best to just rely on your "passion" a la "Use the Force".

[Krashman]

Hey guys,

I have an 11th edition of Preparing for Your Cathay Pacific Interview: The pilot`s guide

I no longer need it,
PM me if your interested in it.

Cheers

[boxerpilot]

Thanks to AB and the other gents who took the time to reply genuine queries and comments. I have to say that these forums for whatever it has been called is still very important to provide information to help anyone make an informed decision. To those that want 'quick fix' answers, spend some time looking through the 179 pages and more. The historic data will help you develop a mental picture but ultimately its your decision. As for cost of living as well as pay packages, it is a fact of life that the days of the expatriate terms are numbered. More aspiring pilots, pay to fly guys as well as the increase of GA and affordability plus fake licenses as well as inflated hours with an overall worldwide reduction in military experience due to shrinking armed forces exacerbates the problems. All corporations will be run by bean counters as well as management decisions based on prudence.
So for all young and aspiring pilots. Never forget why you have a dream. You have chosen a skill over a possibly stable 9-5 job or one subscribed by many in today's industrial age. But if u really believe in yourself and what u want, most flying jobs are regularized and many steps have been taken since the old 'cowboy' days.
I feel the frustration of the guys seeing a once proud and honorable profession being 'downsized' to being called 'overpaid, over glorified and spoilt bus drivers' by the people who don't even fly.
But make your own choice and don't look back. Remember a good point for interviews. 'loyalty'. CX has put in measures to ensure people don't jump ship by P2X hours and reward loyalty downstream. Albeit, much lower than the old A and B scale days. But look around asia... most airlines are offering C scale minus (explains Qantas move of RedQ to
KL or SG).
I have been following and tracking developments for
the Asia pacific area for the last 3 years. It's not going to get very much better.
The captains and FOs are playing musical chairs.
But as AB has rightly pointed out. The sandpit is a developing area with money.But that deal will run out at some point. Ironically for those who might be interested to know. Jetstaraisa is 70% manned by foreign nationals, ex SIA expatriates on local terms. Most recently Air Mexicana pilots and more from Europe that are having no chance of command as Captains never move. Imagine, an SFO with 14,000 hours!!
Now with Thomas cook collapse, they have also started pouring into Asia to grab jobs.
So no doubt about it, there are jobs and there are jobs. I am only in a slightly better position cos I spent 20yrs in the military on fast jets as an instructor. But to tell you guys the truth, I had to come out and spend many hours in books, magazines, forums, networking and simple commitment.
I hope the younger guys do not lose faith. But never forget this. you are joining an industry judged by your peers. U earn your own keep and you build credibility.These traits have been itierated many times by guys 'frustrated' with the 'youthful' ignorance and lack of initiative. But I have had the good fortune of information passed to me and would help a mate in need anytime. PM me if u are going for transitional training interviews and I can give u the updates.

Otherwise keep the posts coming. Fellow pilots who come through Singapore. Always open to expanding the network with like-minded people. You never know who u gonna work for or with. Cheers

[nevet]

Does anyone know when Cathay will be conducting interviews in the US?

[LouisC]

Hi guys,

I had my CX stage 1 on 11/11/11. I was just wondering if anyone knows what the waiting period is before they contact me again (whether success or fail)

Thanks

[etrang]

Either before or after the interviews in South Africa. Check with China Beached, he'll know for sure.

[packo1848]

Hi guys,

I'm currently serving in the RAF (non-flying trade) and am looking to branch out within the next year or so into aviation, I'm currently out of area and so do not have the time to look through such a massive thread to see if a similar query has been posted, so apologies if it has. I've been looking into this cadet pilot scheme with huge interest, however I wish to remain in work till the last possible moment which will mean timing my voluntary withdrawal from the forces as well as possible, I was wondering how flexible Cathay would be on interview dates, would I be able to apply whilst still serving? Also, how often do interviews come around and are they UK or HK based?

Many thanks for any help that can be given.

[tupps]

I am simply sharing my experience with someone asking a question, does my answer really need you nit-picking with immature sarcasm?

By calling them and pestering them you've now shown them your level of patience (or lack of), and this is a job that requires A LOT of patience.

So by showing a keen sense of willing and interest by inquiring about the process, I have inadvertently shown them a personal flaw in that I have no patience?

So it is your belief that I should just be sitting back not bothering to ask questions and just accept no news?

Tupps

[keigorjai]

Hi Louis, do you mind to tell me when did you apply for CPP? In addition, I am now also living in Hong Kong and I put Hong Kong as my preference about the place for the interview.

Cause I have submitted my form on 12th of July. It has been totally 4 months, I understand that some applicants have been waiting for up to 6-12 months, some of them even mentioned that they received a call for their 1st interview after more than a year of application. I am not sure, some takes 2-3 months which is much short than what we have heard in this forum.

However, I just wanna know the process from the others. Cause I have a friend who first submitted his form in June, just 6 weeks before I submitted my application. But he already did his 1st interview in Oct and ICAO English test at the end of Oct. Also, he already got invitation last week for his 3rd interview in mid of Dec.

[LouisC]

hi I applied at the end Aug this year, so it was about 2/3 months for me. But yes , you are right, the waiting period varies. People wait for as long as 1 year.

[FL999]

i applied in April 2010

i've heard nothing since


I can better that. May 2009. No dramas though, didnt hold my breath, moved on with my life, learned and experienced more than CX could ever offer. Patience is a virtue but it doesnt mean you should just sit in front of your pc clicking the refresh button, just keep moving.

[tariq58]

Hi Everyone,

Just a quick question for anyone out there,
I recently changed my Interview Location from London to Hong Kong,anybody done the same ?
I applied in September online and have not recvd any response yet although i did update my application online and recvd an email saying your application is still in process ???

[keigorjai]

I see. Thank you for your sharing. Man, I don't know what is going on with my application. Cause many people submitted their application later than I did. And they have already received their invitation. I am just being worry about it. I wish if it was just a matter of time instead of I couldn't meet the standard. :rolleyes:

[Stallone]

i applied in April 2010

i've heard nothing since

[keigorjai]

If you've applied last year (April 2010), Why don't you apply it again this year (after April 2011)? I thought you are allowed to submit your application again after you have been waited completely for 12 months. Am I correct?

[Krashman]

I think I remember once upon a time reading they wanted updates to profiles when something big changed or every 6 months

[keigorjai]

Even I have not received any rejected letter from Cathay Pacific about the Cadet Pilot Program (CPP). However, let's assume that CX does not offer any invitation to me about the first interview this year. Am I still able to apply it next year again? In addition, I graduated from the University of San Francisco and I do not have any academic background related to the aviation industry. Is that one of the reasons why CX does not send me an invitation?

Anyone has any idea or suggestion about what should I do in order to show the HR department about my improvement during this year and impress them? Because I have been worked for couple years after graduation and I just self-study about the knowledge of aviation and aircraft. I have finished to read the books (1. BAK), (2. Flying The Big Jets). And I studied some cases about the aviation accident and investigation. Sometimes, I check the news of the aviation industry and try to get familiar with the history/background of CX or KA. That's just all I did so far.

Thank you for everyone's opinion and criticize.

[brisdude]

Sorry I didn't have time to personally reply to the replies I got on here from my original post (#3423) where I mentioned I was a former iCadet and son of a former CX Captain.

Here is a few brief answers.

captain.weird "Brisdude, what do you think about your future then? Swithing to another airline or so? PM is welcome too."

- Have to wait it out. Who knows what will happen...

yep_ok_whatever "What did your old man say about the iCadet, did they encourage you to do it rather than going a GA way? Did you consider KA? I guess you have a perm id card? If you didnt consider it why not?"

- His advice was to not do it (I had previous experience though). I did consider KA but it will all be the same system sooner rather then later. Your screwed either way really. Whats the appeal of a system with even SLOWER promotion then CX?

[ryan_sharara]

Hey fellow pilots,

First of all, I applied to Cathay Pacific on the 1st of june, and I still didnt get a reply; - I just got an email that says "At the moment, we are unable to advise you when the next schedule of interviews will take place in your preferred location in near future."

Secondly, I would like to know if there is any Stage 1 interviews in dubai soon and if so, who is going.

Hope to find a reply for that message.

[Shirazmerlot]

I received the same message from them. I applied since july 2011. I guess this is their most polite way to reject the candidates.

[keigorjai]

I've submitted my form in July 12th. And I've received an e-mail from CX one day after. More or less, the e-mail that I've received was similar to yours.

"Dear Mr XXX,

Your application will be considered along with all other eligible applicants in your geographic area when we next select for interviews.


Thank you for your interest in the Cadet Pilot Programme."


I have been waiting for my first interview for 4 and half months. I am sure that some applicants have already received their invitation (We are all in Hong Kong).


I am just worry if they rejected my application without even a notice. Anywayz, we should just keep our life goes on.

[QNH set]

The answers you seek..... won't be found on PP!

[keigorjai]

I understand. But I have sent an e-mail to CX and I call them twice before. No one answer the phone and reply my e-mail. I have no idea what should I do now. I am still thinking about the solution.

[ASDF T_T]

wait so if they don't care about experience what are they looking for?

[FL999]

being one of the lucky few who actually got a reply from cx can you please tell us what kind of people they actually consider for an interview? kids straight out of highschool? university student with an engineering/science degree? students from a flight school? or pilots with a licence and some experience?



A friend of mine got a call 1 month after applying. He had just finished high school at the time(6-8 months ago). He has no flying or working experience.

[QNH set]

He had just finished high school at the time(6-8 months ago). He has no flying or working experience.
Great asset to the flight deck!

keigorjai - How much do you want the job? you emailed once and called twice.... did you leave a voicemail??how about trying to call at the start of the business day in HK, and keep trying. maybe the person you were trying was in a meeting, getting a coffee, having lunch, in the bathroom.... many possibilities or you called when nobody was in the office, ie after hours???

im amazed at how quickly you people start throwing your toys out of the pram. you apply today and if you havent been emailed a response tomorrow you dont know what to do.... welcome to the real world! get on with your lives, the number of applicants per year (now it is open to international cadets) is in the TENS of thousands. unless your cv sticks out, you will have to be patient and wait your turn. i recommend doing something productive with your time. save your money, and build your hours! when it comes time for your interview, at least you will have something to show for the time between applying and interviewing.... it might be the difference.

[Jim-J]

QNH Set nailed it - "unless your CV sticks out...."

No work experience or flying hours to date surely does not help an applicant to get a foot in the door (even though CX offers the 61 week zero to hero program).....

No reply after initial application? Get out there and continue with life, aviating and hour building and update the online application every 6 months as already stated!

[ryan_sharara]

Oh right, does any one know if interviews in Dubai are held by Cathay Pacific these days ?

[mtc]

WAIT! Wait, wait, wait. Show a little patience. I applied 3 years ago and updated my application every couple months or so until I got the call last June. Emails and calls to them are unnecessary. When and if you meet the qualifications you will get the call. Relax!

[CharlieVictorSierra]

QNH Set nailed it - "unless your CV sticks out...."

No work experience or flying hours to date surely does not help an applicant to get a foot in the door (even though CX offers the 61 week zero to hero program).....

No reply after initial application? Get out there and continue with life, aviating and hour building and update the online application every 6 months as already stated!


So then what you saying is that a guy with no flying or work experience fresh out of school had a CV that 'popped out'? :hmm:

[Cpt. Underpants]

No. Your responsibility.

Most moving companies will offer a couple of weeks storage as part of their package.

The trick is to time your move appropriately - without harping on about housing costs, size etc., - unless there's an emotional attachment to something, sell it or have relatives mind it for you until you've had enough or ship it.

A few reasons: apartments here are REALLY space sensitive. What works in an American or European place won't necessarily work here. Think optimization.

HKG realtors "rate" area of apartments and include (pro rated) common areas like elevator shafts and lobbies. 600 sq ft isn't 600 sq ft. Could be as low as 450 sq ft in real terms.

Western furniture isn't made for HKG humidity. It swells, distorts, cracks, mildews. Not even if you're moving from FLL. There, your a/c could run all day and keep it manageable. Trying that here will flatten your meager net salary.

By keeping your eye on expat leaving sales on the Internet, you'll get the right stuff at bargain prices. There's a constant stream of newbies and PO'd leavers. Save your money, you'll need it. Bikes, scooters, TV's, sounds systems etc., are all available locally - and have the correct systems settings, voltage and so on. Besides, HKG locals are very consumer conscious and discard their old gear as soon as a newer model comes out. If you know where to go, you can get really good stuff at absurdly low prices. Just not new stuff.

On the same note, but a bit of a digression - you'll need to save, save, save your cash. You won't have much left at all. $43K before taxes is really not enough, plain and simple. Our flight attendants out earn that. Seriously. And they're locals, with local support, knowledge and infrastructure.

[Captain Dart]

...and just remember that you are signing up for a job and life in a very expensive Asian city that CX once paid A Scales to attract crew to.

Good luck. You'll need it.

[MrBawse]

A majority of successful pilots would have worked their arses off as fresh graduates or trainees. They would have done the hard yards to get their hours up and build up experience in order to land a position in the airlines. Also a lot of the advise we get from senior pilots is to not give up and concentrate and work hard towards the dream of flying etc....basically stating that you better be prepared to slave yourself and keep the struggle going during those early years.

Can people label these difficult conditions to survive as a CX SO in HK as part of that struggle? Sure it sounds tough and probably deters a few people away from applying, but I want to know whether people can 'justify' these conditions if you only look at it as a young person trying to become a successful pilot down the line and having to do his/her share of the hard yards??

[SloppyJoe]

MrBawse

If you have 0 experience and are young the CX cadet program is probably the best in the world, mostly on far superior conditions to those working their way up during the early years, an almost certain job flying a widebody logging hours in 6+ years, after your time as an SO and training. Free training!!!! with a living allowance, accommodation and meals. There is no better way to get an airline job for a 0 - low hour pilot. None of the guys posting here would dispute that even though many point out the drawbacks again and again. The point is it is not sustainable, you will not have a good life if you stay here for your whole career, every expat cadet who works for CX knows this.

CX are in for a tough time, the last of the guys on expat conditions will be upgrading to JFO next year, by the end of next year almost all the local cadets will also have upgraded to JFO, by the end of 2013 they will be upgrading the first guys who joined as international cadets. By the end of 2014 these guys will be approaching 500 - 700 ish hours in a widebody, some will leave who can find jobs back home with minimal total time. By the end of 2015 many will have left, by the end of 2016 for every SO they upgrade one or more FOs will be leaving to go home to fly. They will have two options, hugely increase the cadet package or accept the loss. What everyone who works here as an expat pilot knows is that if conditions remain as they are for expats cadets it is inevitable that most, by most I mean almost 100%, will leave. Cathay played the racial discrimination card in their favor, it will bite them as the increase in conditions will be for all not just expats as everyone is now hired as a cadet, if they can't continue with the inevitable exodus in a few years.

BarronBlue

How many years do you think it will take on this package to get to HK$93,000 a month? I think you may be surprised to hear that it will be well past 10 years at CX.


For experienced guys you have to gamble, will they increase the conditions or will they just disregard seniority and the contract, which does not mean much here in China, and hire DEFOs from third world countries once they see the crew shortage? My bet is No 2. It is inevitable that they will lose almost all expat cadets if they do nothing. The next 5 years are going to be interesting here but if you are pushing past 30 and have some hours do you really want to be getting close to 40 and having to think about starting again somewhere else? Yes it is a good deal as a start, no it is not a good deal for a career, seniority is going to be your worst enemy, starting again at 40 is a hard thing to do, never getting ahead in life is probably harder.

[kelevra]

Cathay Recruitment | Flight Training Adelaide provides world-class aviation and pilot training for international airlines, corporate pilots and private learn-to-fly students - Parafield Airport

See fine print at the bottom of the above link!

"Candidates not notified within 8 weeks may consider their application unsuccessful."

So after 8 weeks, does that mean they're telling you to try reapply, if you like, after 12 months or that's that?

I'm guessing that also means they're not sending rejection emails anymore?

[wongh97]

I don't know if that 8 weeks thing is still valid. I have heard a cadet saying that the processing of applications started getting up to 4-6 months since last year due to the amount of applications had gone up. Moreover, some said they received rejection letter from Cathay.

[kelevra]

Oh, that's good to hear. Sorta. Patient as ever and gives me time to work and study and maybe consider flight school here in Hong Kong at the aviation club.

Anybody tried or know about the flight course at HKAC?

edit: and thanks for the reply!

[schweizer2]

Hello,

I am trying to find detailed information about CX's fleet, mainly regarding what engine the airline uses to power their fleet.

Been searching for a while and cant seem to find much about the engines CX use.

Does anyone have a link to where i may find detailed information?

Thank you in advance.

[Exhale]

Hey guys,

I am trying to get the application mask on the website of cathay but for some days I only see an error page.

Does anybody know what is goin on or where I can find the application page?

[Harlok]

@schweizer2 I have the same problem, I know they mainly have RR engines but I am not sure if they use RR exclusively or not.
Also, the math test used to be 33 mins but now i think it has changed because it's a 45 minutes one. Are the math problems the same or has the content of the test itself changed?

[crwjerk]

The engines CX use have not been mentioned at all in 180 pages of people asking the same question. :ugh::ugh:

Also, the maths test is different, it's ummm...... 45-33= 12!!!
12 minutes longer. :eek:

[bangout]

If you scour the net for long enough the gen is out there, I just can't remember exactly where... The maths test is very difficult, completion isn't necessarily expected. Along the lines of 36.2% 0.0000348. Tasty.

[AviationThomas]

Don't search only in this forum for information. Go to a plane registry site find Cathay fleet and go plane by plane to see the engines ... You'll probably notice a pattern in registries-dates-engines http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Anybody with no-experience that got a date for 2nd stage in HK in January, pm me?

[mtc]

Math test for the TT training has changed from what has been posted on here before. It consisted of two parts with I think 18 questions per part. It is totally possible to finish. I did. No more multiple part questions. It is just 36 individual questions. Fractions, percentages, and aviation related questions. Like you have to clear a 4000' hill by 2000' with a six degree climb gradient. What is the distance required to clear it? Blah blah. Enjoy!

[j-dub]

Hi everyone,
Just wondering if anyone knew of more Australian interview dates?
Does anyone have any coming up in the near future. Would be much appreciated.

[Harlok]

@mtc, thanks for the infom, but do you mean 6% climb gradient? or 6 degrees climb angle. not saying anything, just wondering if it's me being confused about aviation math (which im sure i am!) or was a typing mistake, as I havent found climb gradient expressed in degrees so far.
Would be grateful for any other input regarding the aviation math test.

[kelevra]

Thanks for the update, @mtc for the maths test. I haven't encountered aviation -maths yet, just studied mostly on the theory of flight and slowly studying through flight instruments and the other technical areas.

Any suggestions where I can read/study aviation related maths?

[Krashman]

I wouldn't worry too much about the math test... basic math for the first half and the second half is situational based questions.

You probably won't be able to get through the whole thing... well unless you Rainman. Just answer the ones you know. I didn't finish and I got the offered the job.

Good luck

[brisdude]

25k a month!

Have fun mate, do proper research.

13k max.

[brisdude]

BTW - Don't put "once I am an FO" into your budget.

Spend some time in HK - just for a week or so and you will find your budget is as solid as playdo.

[mtc]

Just be familiar with the one in sixty rule. The test even states "hint - use 1 in 60 rule". I won't explain it here just go look it up. You can finish it if you know your stuff. Like I said, I did. Barely. But it is possible.

[Harlok]

@mtc and krashman - thanks heaps again for the inputs. So Ill try not to panic if i cant finish everything and Ill try to arrive prepared to answer some practical navigation/aviation math questions... im already in panic.. ugh... :eek:

[Jwight11]

Is there a published list in which Cathay Pacific recruiters visit to conduct interviews? I know they were NYC back in AUG. Does anyone know when they will come back?

[diamond1]

Is the maths test for people with a frozen ATPL or just newbies?

[daac]

Hey Jwight11, Im from NYC too ;) . I have not heard anything yet if they are coming here or not. When did you apply ?

[herrtob]

math test is simple maths for the first half and then 1in60 and then some. not a killer

[schweizer2]

Just done stage 1 today.

There were 3 of us involved this morning and the process was very straight forward. Mood felt a bit relaxed in the office, most likely due to staff being away on holidays etc.

From the 3 candidates there, I was the only one who was not on the first attempt.

When we were all there, someone came and spoke to us about how the process would go and took all our copies of resume, high school results etc.

I started the day with the 45 minutes interview, all done on personality and about me, no technical questions asked. It felt more of a casual yet formal conversation to get to know me. Non of the questions involved the history of CX, fleet, profit or anything, all questions were about me.

After the interview I was given a 5 minute break where I would then proceed and do the JKI test, very straight forward as long as you know whats in the booklet they send in advance. As stated on the cover of the booklet, it is up to the candidate to dig for more detail. Had a few questions about pressure instruments, forces acting in flight, engines and about the company itself.

When I was done with the JKI test, I handed in my results in the office and was asked if I wanted more then a 5 minute break befor starting the next test, reasoning test.

For the reasoning test, its quite simple if you are good and finding solutions to patterns, no other way to prepare other then just do Raven's progressive Matrices (APM) as that is the exact booklet they give.
The first part of this test involved 12 questions to be done in a short amount of time, no stress as it is very straight forward patterns.
Same process for the 2nd test, this time 30 questions and much harder, given more then enough time and if you have done some work on Raven's test it should be rather straight forward with the occasional tricky one.

Once this was completed I was offered yet another break so I could have a glass of water and use the toilets if needed.

Last thing to do was the personality test, cant prepare for this, just be absolutely honest. It is computer based, not given a great deal of time but more then enough to complete the task which is mainly just putting in order from best to worst which best describes me.

I was instructed that I was free to leave as soon as I finished the test on the computer.

We were told in the e-mail inviting us that Stage 1 would be held between 9:00 and 14:30, all 3 of us left the building befor 1 pm.

I felt that the staff in the office were very friendly and willing to help us with any questions that we had. Everything was very clear and each test/process was explained very well. We were encouraged to ask any questions if necessary.

Sorry if it all feels like the sentences are long winded, I have had a long day and I am quite tired, I just felt I should write my experience for people to read whilst it was still fresh in my mind.

Will let people know when I receive either a phone call to invite me for Stage 2 :ok: or the dreadful e-mail of rejection.:ugh:

Have a good night all.

[captain.weird]

Are you for the:

Long Course 61 weeks
Medium Course 30 weeks
Transition Course 12 weeks

It is very weird that you didn't got technical questions during the interview.. Was this at all of the aspirant cadets?

How did you prepare for the technical questions? Only the JKI?

??

Thanks for sharing your stage 1. Success with what will come forward!!

[liugorgor]

schweizer2:

I reckon thats a bit weird that u didnt get any tech questions! not even things about CX? :rolleyes:

Do you have any flying/aviation background?

[liugorgor]

BTW schweizer2

Just for your 2nd interview.

Here is the CX fleet and engines break down:

A340-300 CFM56-5C
A330-300 RR Trent 772
B777-200 RR Trent 877
B777-300 RR Trent 892
B777-300ER GE90-115B
B747-400/B747-400F/B747-400BCF RB211-524/P&W4056
B747-8F GEnx2B67
B747-400ERF P&W 4062

Hope it will help for your 2nd stage of interview :)

I am still waiting for my 1st interview in Sydney :(

[liugorgor]

Hi all

Just wondering anyone have CX 2012 international interview schedule?http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif

Appreciate all the shares!

[schweizer2]

hey guys,

I have actually done a lot of studying for the technical questions, did lots of research on CX aircrafts, the history, destinations etc I used a lot more then just the JKI for technical stuff. JKI booklet is definately no where near enough for a technical interview, especially if your asked to go in more details.

This was for the full 61 week course, I do hold a CPL but dont meet the hour requirements for the shorter courses.

I was asked about the technical questions that I received in my previous attempt but was not asked to answer any of them.

This could have simply been that there was no pilots available at the time of the interview, perhaps if I am invited to Stage 2 they will focus a lot on the technical side. I still highly recommend people who have a Stage 1 in the future to study technical stuff aswell, never know what will be asked in the interview. Better to be prepared then not!

Thanks for the engine info Luigorgor, had that all covered but overlooked the 747-8F!

They did ask me what fleet I could be placed on when I finish the course. Then asked me how long the 3 different courses were but that is all.

Also as far as im concerned, the other 2 candidates had a similar interview to mine, no technical questions.

Please dont take this as a "guess there is no tech questions in stage 1" It all depends on who gives the interview, so study hard!

Feel free to ask any more questions.

[daac]

Hi Schweizers2,

Congratulations!! I hope you get a call for the second interview. How long did you have to wait until they called you?

[schweizer2]

not very long, couple weeks. although it really depends on location you put etc... last time I applied I waited a very long time.

[daac]

That's good. I applied on Jun of this year and I still waiting for a response :ugh:

[daac]

I called them a couple of times already and they said that I have to wait for the next interviews.

[schweizer2]

what was your 1st location choices for the interview? If you've put USA then it all depends on when they head out that way for interviews.