Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

[barney31]

I did already all the things you said, except where I can find the right information. Already know the things about Hong Kong, Cathay Pacific, Flight Training (& Facilities) and things like that. I have already a JAA basic book (PDF) but I don't know which chapters I need to read. Just read some of the beginnings, some chapters which are related to the chapters from the JKI?

IMHO, Read about Meteorology, Basic Navigation, Basic Engine, Fundamentals of Aerodynamics, Primary and Secondary control surfaces, Basic Flight Instruments and Principles of Flight(lift formula, stall angle, etc.)

As you probably noticed, all is very BASIC. Fully understand these first and then try to go further. Ofcourse, it is all theoretical and it would help you so much more to have some practical experience as well, and no, FS 2004 or higher, does not count as practical;-)!

[Vpilot53]

Hi guys got an interview with CX in for the Advanced Program comming up does anyone know what is involved eg questions asked and how the interview is conducted for the advanced program. How many stages and what is involved in all stages i have herd there is 3 stages with the last being flight screening, i have the JKI book and know a lot about the company

Thanks

[hihi]

Start at the beginning of this thread. There are answers for every question you pose, you just have to be willing to look for them.

[crwjerk]

How about the moderators close this thread, it's obviously not stopping the morons from asking the most stupid questions, and of course the slinging match between hihi and CB. It's all going nowhere.
DO some research, learn something, stop looking at PPRUNE for your ROTE learning.

[hihi]

Hey! this thread is free from hihi/CB shenanigans.

[CX-A330]

Thanks you cpt.undpants you have answered my questions good!! :ok:

What they really need is a spelling and grammar test.

Dan buster this is not very nice we are trying the best to improve our english and you are make fun of us. if you have the problem with our english not good as yours then post some were else please!!!

[barney31]

Dan buster this is not very nice we are trying the best to improve our english and you are make fun of us. if you have the problem with our english not good as yours then post some were else please!!! Dude, I do not think he does have problem with your English. Obviously he is able to write coherent sentences and use the correct spelling, but the point I think he is trying to make is that the universal language in aviation is english. Now, you might not have to speak and write english from Oxford, but on a CX flight-deck where crew-members come from different native backgrounds, it is imperative that everyone completely understands what the hell he or she is supposed to do! Whether it is calculating the fuel-burn, reading the MEL or tuning the Navaids, all actions need to be backed up by verbal and sometimes written communication to show that you understand what is expected from you and what you are about to do. It is already hard to deal with the different ATC-dialects, so if you can not even communicate properly to your own crew, you are asking to be the next "dissapearing blip" on the radar.

To turn it around, how would you like it if you were the skipper and I would be in the RHS just turning knobs and switches at random intervals? If I would then proceed to speak Swahili or some Sichuan dialect, I am sure you would not tolerate that.

CX-330, I really hope you catch the drift. I believe you when you are saying you are dedicated and committed to get into the CPP. Really I do. However, your level of written english is way under the mark. While you are entitled to make any submission on an forum like this, be aware that if you have used in the same "style" in your application sent to CX, you probably have to wait for quite a while to get an interview, my friend.:rolleyes:

[CX-A330]

Ok i am understand now before i am thinking dan buster is making fun sorry for misunderstand. I will talk english with my families at home and read more english to improved my english. Whem does the cathay pacific throw away the old planes and get new ones what arrival days? the airbuses a350s?? and does this qantas "industrial actions" have the effects on cathay? i see in the wikipedias the air qantas and cathay are the alliance partners! too bad lufthansa is not in the part of the alliance. Ok thanks you everyone for the help informations :ok:

[flapsupdown]

wow - not sure how to respond to that

[Cantankerously]

Thanks for this thread, it's full of great information. I went ahead and applied for the CX cadet program, it was weird they wanted high school information even though I am a university graduate. I dont think my chances are great to get picked up but again thanks for the great info.

[Mr Instructor]

Hi guys,

Does anyone have any updated info on stages 2 and 3 of the S/O programme?
Are they still doing - Stage 2: Maths test, group exercise, flight planning exercise and Interview and Stage 3: Medical, ICAO English test + another interview?

Cheers

[DIESELENGINE]

around page 146 there was a question about logbooks - "Does one have to make copies of all pages of all logbooks he/she ever had, or can it just be last pages?" Thats for the 1st interview.

Anybody got an answer to that?

Appreciate it!

[Dangerman12]

I had the same concern mate. I ended up just photocopying every page I had and they seemed to be satisfied with that. I know it's a pain but I didn't want to take the risk missing something important that they wanted to keep a record of.
:\

[Boe787ing]

hey guys, I have an interview with cathay pacific on 24th August for Stage 1, does anyone have any sort of advice to help me best prepare for this interview.

I am quite bad at diagrammatic tests and mental math question, any books or things to recommend?

This is my schedule just to let you guys know:
During the stage 1 assessment, you are required to complete the following selection sessions:
· Job Knowledge Test (45 minutes)
· Reasoning Test (45 minutes)
· Personality Test (30 minutes)
· Interview (General + Technical)(45 minutes) Technical questions will be based on the Job Knowledge booklet attached and further gauged to the individual’s experience level

I am personally a university graduate with a PPL.

kind regards,

[captain.weird]

Hi B787ing,

Do you have Stage 1 in London? When did you apply? And when did they take contact with you for Stage 1?

Best of luck mate!

[Hamid_27]

Hi all,

Just got invited for stage 2, anyone care to share some more info?

And yes, I've read all 157 pages:8.

Regarding stage 1 - London July, I appled 1 week before the interview and was invited the very next day:uhoh::eek:.

(UK/ JAA FATPL CPL IR MCC JOC 200 hours)

45 min Tech paper, I remember there being 2 different papers on the table, and the one that was given to me asked for a lot more than one could get from the basic JKI booklet. I prepared with ACE, and most importantly, the ATPL books.

20 minutes Tech interview - was asked some ATPL questions.
20 minutes with the HR lady - personal questions, and some regarding CX.

If you know your stuff you will be fine, all in all very pleasant. :E

Cheers,

Hamid_27

[momomomo]

I wonder what stage 2 is doing...

[CX-A330]

Ok i am recieved the good news i have invitations to the stage 1 of second officer program next month in HK i am excite can anyone please share the informations about stage 1??? Ok there is too many pages here to find informations about the stage 1 ok, can someone please share the informations what to study and cathay did not say they are send me a free ticket and accomodation how do they expect me to get to the hong kong!! help please what do i do?? ok thanks everyone.

[pa44seminole]

If there are too many pages of information here for you then TOUGH - everybody has to find what they're looking for. Stop being so lazy.
This thread is overgrown, with few posts of significant value, due to people posting stupid questions. The information you are looking for is already posted numerous times in this thread and it should not be posted yet again just to satisfy lazy people that want everything handed to them on a plate. Your posts are an absolute torture to read.

[Boe787ing]

hi

i have stage one in Hong Kong, I opted for this because they would not be conducting any interviews in London anytime soon and I wanted to get into this a little faster.

[captain.weird]

Hi there,

For Stage 1 you won't get a free ticket to Hong Kong, you have to plan it by yourself! For Stage 2/3 you will get the free ticket and residence at the Cathay Hotel.

Good luck!

[Boe787ing]

yes I know, but I am willing to invest £600 in an airline to ticket to get my career started a bit more early than you would if your put your preferred location London.

Maybe it was not clear but I am just asking if anyone has anymore advice or has recently in the last couple of months taken an interview and what they did to prepare for it.

Thanking you in advance,

[tupps]

Hi guys, I have come across this question.

Ground temp was 29 degrees, cloud base was 2000'. What is the temperature of a parcel of air @ 4000' using DALR and SALR.

How would you tackle this one?

I would use an average DALR, which I believe to be around 5ºF/1000'?, up to 2000', then an average SALR which I believe to be around 3ºF/1000' for another 2000', giving the answer of 13º at 4000'.

Would anyone answer it any other way?

Tupps

[barney31]

I think Cpt Weird was answering CX-330's question about the stage 1.

However, to answer your question, here is my 2 cents:
1. Just read up on all matters YOU think is important to be an commercial jet pilot(Technical, Airmanship, etc).
2. Know yourself and where you are coming from. More importantly, try to understand what you are getting into with this program and living in HKG.
3. Read all about CX (just make sure the sources are traceable and authentic)
4. Be humble and modest to your interviewers, but stand your ground if you know what you are talking about. ;)

I am quite bad at diagrammatic tests and mental math question, any books or things to recommend?Try to get hold of an basic high-school math book. It should help you with some fundamentals. It also teaches basic shortcuts for adding, subtracting, multiplying and subtracting. You can try this website for some basic practice: Numeracy Test (http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/tests/mathstest.htm)

As for the logic reasoning test. Try this website:
http://www.iqtest.dk/main.swf
It is somewhat similar to the test they use at Stage 1.

Remember these are just my 2 cents. Whatever works for you is the best option.

Good luck!:ok:

[Boe787ing]

barney31,

your 2 cents are so helpful. Again thank you for taking your time to help me.

:)

[FL999]

Does no one see that this guy's takin the piss??

[SMOC]

British Airways In A Major Recruitment Drive (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3ad964ce66-7715-40b8-9295-3f5650425dd1&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest)

As well as recruiting experienced pilots from other airlines and ex-military pilots, British Airways says it will help around 400 aspiring pilots with the cost of training through its Future Pilot Program.

You will be an F/O from day one :D

[cykzstudent]

@Tupps

Why would it be in Farenheit? That makes no sense. The answer is 20C

[edopack]

cykzstudent is right

DALR = 3C/1000ft
SALR = 1.5C/1000ft

Ground temp is 29 degrees, using DALR (3C/1000ft)
Cloud base @ 2000ft temp is 23 degrees
then you use SALR (1.5C/1000ft)
therefore temperature @ 4000ft is 20C

[barney31]

Does no one see that this guy's takin the piss?? Yes and no.
Yes, because every posting he made in this thread became more ridiculously than the former one.
No, because there are people like him wandering around this planet, trying to get an finger between the door.

So instead of busting his/her chops, I prevail to take another road and give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that is not an smart approach on a forum like this, but either way, it is my perogative to assume that this is really an actual person trying to find his way...

If not, I'll be the first to admit that I have been punk'd:O

[tupps]

Cheers guys, I had the right strategy just not the correct figures.

Tupps

[meggo]

Wow. I am really enjoying your posts. Your "engrish" is so appalling that I can't believe that you are for real! Must be taking the piss I think.

If you are for real you must be:

from a Band 5/6 HK Secondary School
not aware of Spellcheck or Grammarcheck
not worried about holding yourself up to public humiliation
not fit to communicate to a safe level in the international arena
not safe to be driving PAXs through the skies
certainly not safe to communicate when you are in a critical or pressured situation
not worried that CX may be monitoring your posts
Good Luck to all who fly with you.Note to self: Never will fly CX again because there is the remotest chance he will be my driver.

[built4flying83]

yeah A330x and other similiar new pprune joiners are usually some bitter rogue pilot in disguise trying to point out the poor standard of the upcoming cadet. Too bad these people dont get through the interview, math test, pysch test, tech test, sim ride etc.. And if they do then they are put through the ringer for 13months at a professional flight school in Australia.

[crwjerk]

Why shouldn't you be put through the ringer if you've never flown before?

[DIESELENGINE]

Ouch! dude
I just ended up calling them in Hong Kong, and asked them straight up if they want me to copy every page. They said they are trying to be little more environmentally friendly than that and just told me to bring the original :confused:

[DIESELENGINE]

above's post is for dangerman

[Dangerman12]

Haha, fair enough. For the second stage I just took the original logbook without any photocopied parts ;) For the first stage they state in the e-mail that they wanted a photocopy of a number of things. A logbook being one in that list.

Always best to ask the source though :ok:

[built4flying83]

CRWJERK

you misunderstood what i was saying. i was just pointing out that some guys are making out that zero/low hour pilots just pass the interview and then get to sit in the seat behind the captain. This is not the case, they do a 13month course, not in india or europe, but in a highly regarded Australian flight school.

[CX-A330]

Ok i am get my friend who speak good english to translate/type for me.

To all of you who think i am "taking the piss" i am not doing this to annoy anyone or to piss people off. If meggo you were smart enough you would know i am from germany from my previous post. I am not from hong kong, i am a 4th year university student studying mechanics but all of my childhood dream is to be a pilot. To everyone who thinks this is all a joke im sorry it came to this. I was warned by cpt.underpants that i should improve my english otherwise my posts are comical (funny) to you all previlleged with good english skills. I am studying hard for my upcoming stage 1 next month. If cathay really monitor this posts i make then they should be happy to see i am try to improve my english!

Thanks everyone for this thread i am still appreciate all of your inpuy negetive or positive :ok:

p.s this is CX-A330s friend who wrote this on behalf of him to anyone who does not understand.

[slotsdown]

British Airways (http://www.britishairways.com/careers)

Very interesting!!

[Em773ER]

looks like a decent opportunity with BA, but having said that i'm still a bit uneasy with the "finances" part. Looks about 70% as bad as the CX "forgivable loan" given they at least give you back each month over a period of 7 years tax free... Just my opinion but i'll leave it at that before this becomes a CX vs BA cpp debate...

[Smell the Coffee]

BA vs CX depends on what your plans are.

If you don't hold right of residency/right to work in the EU, forget BA.

The major advantage with BA as I see it, and has already been pointed out, is that you're straight in as FO on the 737/A320/321/319/318. So you log valid, recognisable hours from Day 1. That's a massive difference.

In terms of living costs, London is very expensive (no surprise there), but unlike HK, you at least have the possibility of living outside London and paying a LOT less in rent. Supermarkets very cheap, as are utilities and services (if you shop around).

Eventually with seniority, you can even commute from outside the UK (Staff Travel very good, if there are seats or jumpseats available anywhere in the cabin, you'll get them. Some cabin staff will upgrade you as you board..)

No brainer if you live in Europe...

[jimbols6]

hi
sorry if this has been answered already but Ive read most of the pages and can not find an answer. Do cathay pay you a salary during training at the flying school in Australia? and if so how much??

plus I have a PPL with over 100 hours and have completed the 14 Atpl exams would I have to sit the exams again or would I go straight to the CPL/IR stage of the course maybe just behind the people doing the advance course??

[built4flying83]

they pay you something, i cant get anyone to say the exact amount either. They provide meals and accomadation and i think about $200 a week for miscellaneous stuff on weekends/days off.

[Wing Flex]

they pay you something, i cant get anyone to say the exact amount either. They provide meals and accomadation and i think about $200 a week for miscellaneous stuff on weekends/days off. The allowance may have changed but it used to be $400AUD per month. Many of the cadets used to eat off campus (mainly in China town) towards the end of their course as they were sick of the food provided.

[Hamid_27]

@jimbols6,

I have a UK FATPL CPL IR MCC JOC with 200 hours, and at my Stage 1 interview I was told the the Hong Kong Civil aviation department wants 250 hours for the advanced entry programme(30 week). This meant that if I was successful I would have to start from the beginning with the cadets with no experience.:ouch:

They mentioned a request had been made 2 months ago to the HK CAD to reduce Total hours for CPL holders to 150 for the advanced programme.

In any case jimbols6, you will have to start from the beginning ( 61 weeks in Australia).


Also worth mentioning, On the HK CAD website, it says that if you got your licenses from an HK CAD approved integrated flight school, the requirement would be 200 hours. Sent a email to the HK CAD, will find out soon.

Due to go to Hong Kong for stage 2, anyone else in the same boat?

Note>>professional Pilots licence>>CPL>>3.2.1 >> Pilot Licences (http://www.cad.gov.hk/english/ppl.html)

[pa44seminole]

Hi all

I applied to CX on August 02nd. If accepted I would expect to be placed in the Advanced (30 week) or Transition (12 week) training course, rather than the Cadet (61 week) programme.
I haven´t had a response from CX yet; anyone here in a similar situation?
Are they recruiting for all three courses at once, or focusing on the 61-week course to begin with?
Please PM with any info.

Thanks

[Boe787ing]

so for some one with a PPL , and around 80 hours, you would look to be doing the 60 week course i take it?

[pa44seminole]

A commentary on my qualifications is not relevant. I have stated that I would expect to be placed in either of the advanced programmes. The requirements for entry to each of the programmes is available from the Cathay Pacific website and I need not repeat them here. If you were aware of these requirements you would know that a PPL and 80 hours does not meet those requirements. Additionally, had you thoroughly read and understood my post, and were oriented to answering questions constructively rather than making smart-assed remarks, you would see that I am asking about the sequence of recruitment for the various programmes and the time scales involved.

[Stallone]

Hi all

I applied to CX on August 02nd. If accepted I would expect to be placed in the Advanced (30 week) or Transition (12 week) training course, rather than the Cadet (61 week) programme.
I haven´t had a response from CX yet; anyone here in a similar situation?
Are they recruiting for all three courses at once, or focusing on the 61-week course to begin with?
Please PM with any info.

Thanks

should be recruiting on all fronts, 61week course reply will be slower since it's based on geographical location. 2nd August application is still pretty recent, perhaps you should wait a little longer before you hear anything from them.

[Cpt. Underpants]

It's true the advanced program is woefully under-subscribed.

The probable reason being that suitable candidates can get better employment elsewhere.

It's not about having the hours - it's about experience, not only twin time, but useful, experience-garnering time. Simply having the hours does not automatically qualify you for either of the shortened courses.

The long course is over subscribed with applicants - all the "no hopers" who see this as a free licence and a guaranteed good job after qualification.

It's neither free nor a good job - by any measure.

All you're doing by accepting this insult of a package is hastening the race to the bottom.

[CX-A330]

It's neither free nor a good job - by any measure.

I am not understanding what do you mean cpt.underpants? I am confuse i thought it is free training? and it is not good jobs how sir?. Ok thanks

[Cpt. Underpants]

Güten abend CX A330

The training is not free.

You are given a "credit" of about HKD1.2 million at the beginning of your course - short, medium or long.

As you train, the cost of the training is deducted from the credit.

The longer the course, the more it costs.

12 months after qualification, you are "given" the balance as a "loan".

Short course graduates have about HKD880K remaining, medium a bit less and long course, not much at all.

The HK Revenue Department tax you in full on the "loan" when you receive it.

The "loan" is considered paid off after 6 years of service with CX.

In exchange - this is the important part - you give up expatriate benefits FOR THE DURATION OF YOUR CAREER WITH CX.

It could mean (depending on age) up to USD5 million in lost expat benefits during your career with CX.

Your "free" training will cost you US$5,000,000 ++ in your career.

Why isn't it a good job? Just google CX's record on personnel relations since 1993. Broken contracts, mass terminations (for "no particular reason") intimidation of union members, massive breaches of contract on a daily basis, frozen pay in the face of huge CoL increases, career stagnation for many, seniority bypasses, lack of regard for "scope" in contracts, refusal to negotiate with elected representatives, punitive rosters...

Please read John Warhams book "The 49'ers - The True Story" to fully understand WHO you're getting into bed with.

These are not nice people.

[jimbols6]

Hamid_27, cheers for the reply,
theres no way im taking those atpls again, im planning on taking my cpl at the end of this year so i will have a re-think then.

capt. underpants said that they are under subscribed for the advanced programme, thats not surprising as most people that finish a CPL have between 150-200 hours the 250 mark is hit around completion of the full CPL/IR (frozen ATPL) as which point there are certainly better options out there now for people to consider. So the hours for the advanced stage defiantly need to be reduced.

cheers

[ChinaBeached]

"There are no GA jobs out there....!!"

I suppose you have to look first. :ugh:

Hmmm: http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/460778-65k-going-rate-piston-twin-drivers.html

$65k AUD = $68,000 USD = 41,492 GBP for a job in GA.

[CX-A330]

Thanks you for the response cpt.underpants.

Ok can i asked the question what if someone is to deliberately failed the "line check" or the "line test" and they are fired by the CX, are they still to repay back this forgiveable loans? I am think that there is some loopholes maybe to get out of CX and then convert the HK CPL lisenses to local lisenses? ok i am only asked the question if anyone can helps that is great thanks :ok:

[built4flying83]

Short course graduates have about HKD880K remaining, medium a bit less and long course, not much at all.

The HK Revenue Department tax you in full on the "loan" when you receive it.

The "loan" is considered paid off after 6 years of service with CX.

In exchange - this is the important part - you give up expatriate benefits FOR THE DURATION OF YOUR CAREER WITH CX.

It could mean (depending on age) up to USD5 million in lost expat benefits during your career with CX.

Your "free" training will cost you US$5,000,000 ++ in your career.


the above is noted. But say 10 years ago you had a SO stay in hong kong for approx 7years and then get a base in another country. Wouldnt the SO that started today that stayed in Hong Kong for 7years and managed to get in a base be in a similair position or just slightly worse off?
I understand though if you intend on staying in hong kong for 10+ years then there is a HUUUUGE difference between the new scheme and old.

Before veryone starts getting emoitonal, what are the figures of pilots getting bases, i heared it is not many... can we predict what is going to happen in 5 years when we have such an unpredictable boom about to happen in asia?

[main_dog]

the above is noted. But say 10 years ago you had a SO stay in hong kong for approx 7years and then get a base in another country. Wouldnt the SO that started today that stayed in Hong Kong for 7years and managed to get in a base be in a similair position or just slightly worse off?

No new base slots have been awarded for over a year now. The reason the company awarded bases in the past is that by doing so it could save on the housing. With iCadets this incentive is mostly gone, so the airline would have no reason at all to award you a base.

In other words, if you accept this "deal", expect to live in HKG the rest of your life and live in very basic housing, in one of the most expensive cities on earth. Buyer beware... and good luck with your decision.

[Cpt. Underpants]

CX-A330

I'm happy you posed that question, and yes, you can deliberately fail a check ride and be terminated, and I'm fairly sure the "loan" would be unenforceable.

I love it when wannabees start thinking this way!

A bunch of CX recruitment staff just choked on their Oat Squares...

[Captain Dart]

As I wrote in Post 3092 of this epic thread, I think the guy is a wind-up merchant :hmm:.

[ryan_sharara]

Hey all, I have been reading through the older posts.

I applied for the Cathay S/O in June( I have CPL/ ME-CIR ICAO-CASA) , and they replied 2 days ago with the following email :

"Dear Mr. Sharara,

Thank you for your interest in the Second Officer Programme.



The initial interviews will be arranged in the major cities in which the flights of Cathay Pacific operate, subject to the sufficiency of eligible candidates in the same geographic areas.



At the moment, we are unable to advise you when the next schedule of interviews will take place in your preferred location in near future.



We will keep you informed of the application status after it is confirmed."


My preferred location is dubai.

Can anyone explain if like my online application is accepted ?

Or does it mean that they are still looking on my online application ??

I replied that it doesnt matter for me flying into any country to do the stage 1 interview...

Thanks guys !

Hope we all get a flying job :8

[Hamid_27]

Hi all,

Anyone going to Hong kong for Stage 2/3 on on 21st - 22nd Sep? :}

Would be cool to compare notes :E


Hamid

[CX-A330]

Yes cpt.underpants i am think of ways that people can use CX as the "means to an end" like this unfortune instructors who is messed by CX they can escape also. People we have to think outside of boxes to make things works our way, this is just my thought.

Ok Dan buster and captain f@rt how did you managed to get past this pprune security verification when signing up your accounts? I am think that it stops computers to make fake accounts... you must be the super advanced computer!! yes how does THAT feel? we insulted the computer bots like you and "smarter child" on msn.

Ok i am only kidding but this point i try to making is its not nice to be-little others based on cultural different!! you are the pilot i hope to be so act like it and stop making fun!!! be professional. ok please! look at cpt.underpants now that is the pilot i am very hope to be! :ok:

Hamid 27 friend i have the stage 1 around your time in HK!! it is different thing but if you still wanted to exchanged notes personal message me. Ok good luck!

[cloudripper]

A warm Hello to one and all!

Just had a query regarding the cadet pilot programme, selection process;

1. Do they also accept invites/ call the applicant only from HK or is it for anybody with requirements mentioned as on their website?

2. WHich venue should be chosen so as to get a call for 1st round ? I applied couple of months ago, yet no response or call -mail!

3. how are the rounds in terms of difficulty? cold anybody offer comparisons? for e.g.- comparing with SIA or anyother anybody must have attended?

I appreciate all positive responses will be made soon.

Thanks in advance,

[G_Orwell]

I apologize for getting slightly off topic.

I know it is a forum, but the amount of sarcasm and the bitterness in some of the posts coming from users claiming to be Cathay pilots, is worrying sign already.
You are diminishing your company in every thread there is in this forum.
You are constantly complaining about management, cabin crew, HR and who knows what I have missed.
If you are willing to talk trash about your company, do something about it or get one step further and go for other greener pastures!
There are a lot of opportunities out there and you seem to spot and point them... to other pilots, of course.

Now, about the program. The package is insufficient, but using arguments such as "Consider your health, pollution is awful... etc", coming from people that made that choice in the past and continue to live in HK with their families is at least...funny!

Good day

[slotsdown]

The person who wrote above can see the trash been posted by some blokes.

[SloppyJoe]

The point that is being missed is the people pointing out that this is a terrible package and not worth moving to Hong Kong for are on a far better package. They are advising against this new deal as it is, quite frankly, crap. If I got only the new HKPA I would leave, no question about it, not even one thought, I would walk into work tomorrow, hand in my notice and then call in sick for 3 months.

[USMCMBA]

As long as there is a healthy supply of young men and women who have aspirations to fly, these “ab initio” schemes or programs for low time pilots will always have “insufficient” compensation packages. It is just the basic law of supply and demand. Here in the US, most people would be surprised to find that a regional pilot makes less than $20K USD / YR for first couple of years as an F/O (not much more thereafter). In many Asian carriers, these cadet training programs for their “national” pilots, pay little and come with a bond that can be well over a decade. China Airlines (Taiwan) for example, not long ago had a recruitment drive for Taiwanese national for their cadet pilot program. It pays NT $100,000/mo (about $3,300 USD a month) and there is a 12 year contract I believe. Taiwan my understanding can be somewhat of an expensive place to live especially with the housing boom most Asian cities seem to have experienced in the recent years. It is my understanding even well respected airlines like SIA or MAS pretty much have similar terms like that of China Airlines.

In reality, there will always be a large supply of people with the misconception that a career of an airline pilot is “glamorous” as it once was. There will always be someone who will be willing to take an entry position even if the pay is low and the terms are advantageous to the employer. Better yet, there will always be a good supply of people who are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to an airline just to fly in the right seat.

If anyone can find a “well” paying job with “excellent” benefits for low time pilots, please let me know.

[WhatThe?]

Well you could always work hard and earn that well paying job....like the rest of us did before you! ohhh that might be hard though:mad:

Why should any carrier pay good money for no-experience pilots? The problem is that management seems to feel that experience is not worth anything, hence the reason why almost no-one with experience accepted the current cadet deal. :ok:

[USMCMBA]

“Well you could always work hard and earn that well paying job....like the rest of us did before you! ohhh that might be hard though

Why should any carrier pay good money for no-experience pilots? The problem is that management seems to feel that experience is not worth anything, hence the reason why almost no-one with experience accepted the current cadet deal. ”

Uuugh, yeah FYI, I do have a very well paying job, just not as a pilot or in aviation. One of the reasons why I didn't go the airline pilot route after graduating from Embry-Riddle was how little, airlines (regionals in particular) paid their pilots and how little “progression” there seemed to be (plus 9/11 didn’t help either) due to the whole seniority structure implemented at most US carriers. Hence I got an MBA from a respected AACSB accredited university and have been working in IT/ERP sales ever since. I know I travel much less than an airline pilot (get to be with family more so than my friends who went to become pilots, many are still regional pilots I might add) and have much more freedom and flexibility to do what I want, when I want. It amazed me for the longest time, seeing how my pilot friends struggled. While I was driving a brand new bimmer, they were still driving the same old beater they had in college. While I wined and dined on company expense with clients my friends are at some pilot’s lounge at some airport eating fast food or some snacks left over from a flight they were just on.

I don’t think most aspiring pilots realize how difficult it is to succeed in this profession. It is a long and challenging road and there are other paths you can take to make the big bucks (and probably not struggle as hard). Like I said before, as long as there are individuals who think being an airline pilot is “glamorous” there will always be a large pool of candidates (even ones with some experience like low time CPL" who are willing to take any “inadequate” compensation package and live the life of a “ramen noodle” budge.

[WhatThe?]

USMC i thought your post was good, but being #3200 in this quagmire of Cadet postings you would be amazed how many people think they should.

[GlassesJacketShirt]

I'm a current university student in Canada. I have a few questions regarding entry into the 61 week cadet program

1. Is it mandatory to have previous flight experience or technical knowledge in order to get accepeted.
2. Do you have to be a Hong Kong Citizen
3. What is the application process and interview process like
4. Do you have to pass a class 1 medical exam before applying
5. Would age make a difference in getting accepted?

[captain.weird]

All questions in 1 answer: do your research/homework! If you want this, and you have the right motivation, these questions would be answered..

[CX-A330]

Ok friends can i asked where is this training for cathay second officers done for airbuses and boeings assigned S/O does this cathay second officers assigned to the airbuses go to paris for airbus schools? :D (i am love paris!!!!). i am simply asked this because i told some airlines do the airbuses training in paris. i not told about training for boeings. ok thanks :ok:

also friends i am read the 49ers book and i am amaze at how much cathay is evil to the pilots!! i am hoped things have changed in cathay it is my dreams to fly for them. cross the fingers they dont asked me about 49ers in the stages 1 interviews :\

also again friends. i am graduate at university end of this year and if i pass my stages 1 interviews next month, i am not want to study stage 2 during exams do i told cathay in my stages 1 interviews that i am want to "defer" my stages 2 to when i am finish graduating. please help guys. ok thanks again.

ok can i also added 2 more things! it is true that the cathay are changed the contracts of pilots as they wants???? and it is also true that sometimes the cathay have deliberately "found some issues" in the checks to delay pilots upgrading just to reduce costs of paying this promoted pilot???? :eek:
I AM HOPE THIS IS NOT TRUE!! ok thanks

[alohajec]

oh no...i cringe in anticipation of the replies to this post.....:uhoh:

[crwjerk]

Please spontaneously combust.

[Just.A.Cadet]

Well you could always work hard and earn that well paying job....like the rest of us did before you! ohhh that might be hard though

WhatThe?, please tell us how exactly you had to work any harder than the rest of us to get your license? Cadet, or not cadet. . .

Maybe you were slogging it out bush somewhere while you tried to do your ATPLs. . . We also had to do them while working 6 day weeks. . .

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Has any1 gotten a stage one interview in the toronto area?

[thomas87]

Hello guyz/Gulz..
Was wondering anyone preparing for stage 2 interview.
Should be really helpful if we can share some preparatory notes.
PM me..
brgdz

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Honestly, has anyone without any previous flying experience been accepted into the Cathay Pacific Cadet Program or at least passed stage 1 of the interviews?

Thanks

[Em773ER]

hey there CX-A330

have a read of this thread, its a good thread (although its a bit old).

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/236365-whats-culture-cathay-like.html

and just tell the HR people during your stage 1 or email them regarding your current situation, IF you get invited to stage 2. good luck!


you hit the nail on the head WhatThe? good post :ok:

[WhatThe?]

Licences are meaningless. Experience is the variable that cadet programs are overlooking. Will a cadet get experience? YES
So at what point does a pilot cease to be a cadet with minimal skills, and become a professional with years of experience to bring with them to work?
Will a cadet become a professional? Yes.. so will they then be paid as well as the guy next to them? NO
A cadet under this program will never leave that stigma behind. You will always be considered a cadet.

I have gained five thousand hours of flight time in some of the most nasty conditions Canada can dish out, so do I bring to the table more than you do as a cadet? Yes.
When someone with a depth of knowledge gets hired they are not bringing an empty flight-bag with them, and should be paid accordingly.

Cathay used to respect this when they were hiring, it really meant something to be a CX pilot. Now a pulse and a licence, and don't forget a huge training bond are the important things.

Example:

A doctor fresh out of Medical school is a Doctor. Yes. Would you want him to do open heart surgery? Nope! But with years of experience and in-house training he will be very capable as a autonomous doctor. So the question is should he have to start out at the bottom pay scale if he moves to a new hospital? No.

[Just.A.Cadet]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I hear what you are saying, and agree to a certain extent. The idea that "licenses are meaningless" and "you will always be considered a cadet", I do not though.

After 5 years and 3,000 hours in an RPT operation, am I less experienced than a pilot that has been in the company 6 months, with 2,000 hours, and been awarded a command?
Clearly I am still in the right seat, so I am not ready for "open heart surgery" alone, but I do not bring an empty flight bag to work.

I have respect for the Captain's decisions, and I do things exactly the way they want (even though most of them have their own way of doing things).
The only time I will open my mouth is when I fear for my (our) safety. Why? My past experiences have left me with some beneficial insight into the particular situation, and I feel that I have something to offer.

I do not hide from the fact that I'm a cadet. I try and learn something every day, regardless of who or what the experience comes from.

Unfortunately, there are (plentiful) people that do decide to try and tell a Captain how to do their job. It is not fair that the rest of us are judged for their insolence.
Please don't lose sight of the fact that they should be judged as individuals, not as the rest of us. Unfortunately it comes with the industry.

Do you deserve more money than me at entry level?
YES. A cadet's contract will take care of that.
Do I deserve to be paid more than you because I've been at the company longer than you? (years down the track, rank for rank)
YES. Why must I stay on worse conditions for my whole career, for the way I chose to get a start?

Not all cadets are looking for a job on a silver platter, with a seniority number that makes them bigger and better than you. People make choices that they feel are best, hopefully for the long term.

Before you fire back, this 'deal' is not the right one. I hope it is true that it has improved recently, and that it continues to do so. I hope to see you at the interview with me when it does.

Whether you sign up as a cadet or not, we are all in the same boat eventually. I do not support or condone the way the industry is going, and there should always be an avenue for "experience".
Hopefully more people see this deal (and others) for what it is. Unfortunately there will be many that ignore the real facts.


P.S. sorry for the thread drift. I tried to make a new thread about this and the moderators said "nay". At least I can handle being treated as Just a Cadet :ok:

[ffa6890b5b874d51ae85]

Hello All.
I applied in CX for second officer program on 2nd may 2011. I have 272hr of flying exp. and I have FAA/DGCA CPL SE ME IR (Current). Current with both class 1 medicals. I chose my interview location as Hong Kong. After completing my application when I submitted I got following email.

Your application will be considered along with all other eligible applicants in your geographic area when we next select for interviews.

Thank you for your interest in the Cadet Pilot Programme.
Now its been more then 3 months I havent recived anything from CX.
When shall I expect to get a call. I know Cathay dont conduct any stage 1 interview in India but SIA does. So I choose Hong Kong as my Interview location.

[ChinaBeached]

Obviously you did not do ANY background reading before posting such an ignorant question. Don't worry, you are at the standard required. At least a sheep can be herded: precisely what CX want from this CPP I suppose.

Whether you sign up as a cadet or not, we are all in the same boat eventually.

No. Some detracted from the industry standards & others did not. We are not nor will ever be in the same boat. I pity those who are on the same flight deck together though.

[Captain Dart]

On what scale did you join the company, China? I agree with your first paragraph, but the answer to my question had better be 'A'.

[ChinaBeached]

The answer to your question has also been answered many, many, many times before.

I didn't. I refused.

[Krashman]

China
The answer to your question has also been answered many, many, many times before.

I didn't. I refused.

Dude. Chill out. Your not really adding anything to the forum by call people down.

Thank you for your interest in the Cadet Pilot Programme.
Now its been more then 3 months I havent recived anything from CX.
When shall I expect to get a call. I know Cathay dont conduct any stage 1 interview in India but SIA does. So I choose Hong Kong as my Interview location.

Just keep your profile up to date by loggin in and adding any extra hours every six months or so. They can't interview everyone who has applied all at once.

Good luck

[ChinaBeached]

As opposed to wannabes posting the same mindless & ignorant questions that have been answered countless times before??

People want the answers that only suit their preconceived ideals, not facts or truths from those with international airline experience, living in HK or CX knowledge & experience.

CX now has cockpits whereby the 3 or 4 members of the operating crew can each have a different contract & CoS.

[Wannaberightseat]

Hi everyone,

I have read the entire thread of this forum and I can find alot of information but not the right answers to my questions.

After doing research, it looks like the cost of rent is around HK$20,000 per month for about 1100sq.ft in Discovery Bay.

I'm not adverse to living elsewhere where there are no expats, but to begin, I think this would seem the most sensible option.

The reason I mention Discovery Bay is because I have heard that is where most of the expats live. How true is this?

Where do the other expats generally live? I have heard that some live on HK Island. Which districts in particular?

I have been to Honk Kong several times before and know the haggling culture. I have heard, but not sure if it is true, that you haggle on rent prices??? I would have thought these would have been fixed as property and real estate is so expensive. Some feedback would be appreciated.

Looking at rental prices, the cost of buying an apartment and the blogs of people saying that we cadets will be 'stuck' in Hong Kong for up to 10 years before getting a base, would it not make financial sense to purchase???

Any positive feedback is appreciated. If you want to moan about the current contract the fine, but we have all heard it before and e will all take it into consideration.

Thanks

[nish1233456]

I applied to CX in june and put Hk as first location, but stil didnt get a reply, and Cx A330 also applied on the same days (july) i guess and apparently he has got a interview in HK , so i wish him all the best , can anyone tell why i waz not still called even we applied on closer days, can any body advice me on this . Does that mean that i am put out

[USMCMBA]

"I have been to Honk Kong several times before and know the haggling culture. I have heard, but not sure if it is true, that you haggle on rent prices??? I would have thought these would have been fixed as property and real estate is so expensive. Some feedback would be appreciated.

Looking at rental prices, the cost of buying an apartment and the blogs of people saying that we cadets will be 'stuck' in Hong Kong for up to 10 years before getting a base, would it not make financial sense to purchase???"

What I have learned in life and through thousands of deals and transactions I have done in sales is that everything in life is negotiable, no matter where you go. It never hurts to ask if they will take something lower than advertised. Start out with a reasonable offer (don't insult unless if that is your intent) and see where it goes. What is the worst they can say, "no"? Then you go on your way. Just make sure you know your pros and cons before engaging in your negotiations.

I have only been to HK once but my understanding is that HK has one of the top five most expensive real estate market in the world. Don't be surprised if that small apartment you are talking about for $20,000 HKD a month is for sale for equivalent of over $1,000,000 USD a year. But on the brighter side, I have been reading more economics journals lately stating the HK market is beginning to contract so you may find some "good" bargains.

[Zap Branigan]

Hi all

I currently hold a recreational pilots permit and have logged just over 100 hours. I have a desire to fly for a career and Cathay's program seems to fit what I'm looking for. I'm happily employed right now, in an exciting field that pays me 85K+ with bonuses and good benefits but I've always dreamed of becoming an Airline Pilot. I hold a university Degree as well a number of other military and civilian qualifications. A job as an airline pilot is something I'm willing to take a pay cut for. My questions are


What are my chances of getting selected for the program with my minimal experince in flying?
Are they currently hiring and expanding?
What would help to give me an edge besides holding a commercial license?
Has anyone on this forum been to the interview? If so, how much experience did you have before getting an inteview
If someone would help me answer these questions, I'd greatly appreciate it. I need to know if I'm wasting my time or not.

[Zap Branigan]

What are your qualifications??

[Zap Branigan]

I wish. What are your qualifications?

[Zaid28]

Greetings to all,

Anyone have an interview mid Sep. for Stg 1 interview in HK? PM please!!

Thanks

[07R]

"A bunch of CX recruitment staff just choked on their Oat Squares..."

Brilliant!

[rodrigues]

In terms of the entry prerequisites regarding the completion of senior Maths & Physics, on the CX site is outlines that completion of ATPL subjects is equivalent to a Bachelors degree or the Maths/Physics subjects, but in the application stage does not give you the option of selecting ATPL's?

Also, can anyone shed any light on wether or not CX accept university bridging courses (Australia) for Maths and/or Physics?

Thanks in advance :ok:

[sean7]

thomas87, when did you apply for the interview? and how long did it take for the stage 1 interview call?

[brisdude]

So why can't you get another job?

You HAVE to weigh everything up. Are you at an advantage career wise over guys in Aus that are on Metros or with Instructor ratings?

There is a professional courtesy that exists in every company, whether it be a 206, or Metro.

Just remember you do actually owe something to your profession. CX is great for a DESO in the SO factory but always remember - otherwise you are undercutting (yours and my) industry.

[thomas87]

i applied somewhere in 2009 and got a call in 2011 may,..

[rossiqa]

Hi everyone out there..

I recently just had my interview with Cathay Pacific in Melbourne Australia. I had ATPL,CPLA, MECIR,FIR etc 300 so hours total, and was applying for the advanced stage. I thought i did well in the interview and believed they liked me and enjoyed my company, but unfortunately i didn't get an offer. I got a rejection. I tried and i can't tell you why they rejected me but that is life. Feel free to ask any questions about it, just p.m

[&&&]

Congratulations on getting rejected. They saved you from living like a peasant in a 3rd world country on 3rd world pay.

[hihi]

Don't feel bad about the rejection. I studied long and hard and felt that i did really well in the interview but i didn't get through either. Honestly, i really do feel relieved in a weird way that i didn't get through. It's not a case of sour grapes or anything, i just feel that if i did somehow get through, that deep down i'd know i hadn't really earned my place like the other guys who have really done the hard yards to be there. I won't apply again for Cathay or any cadet scheme for that matter.

To the other hopefuls and wannabe's, think long and hard about what you are getting yourselves into. While i am sure it's not all doom and gloom, i suggest you take another look at the facts you have been presented with. The numbers in the contract aren't exactly a secret and it doesn't take much to see that you are going to be paid far less than your peers, and the forfeited allowances have an opportunity cost that runs into the millions over your career.

The cadetship is good for one thing, and that is airline interview practice. I took notes after mine and thought about what i did wrong or could have done better. This should make things easier when you get around to applying for a proper airline job.

[Dangerman12]

Bloody hell Hihi, has China Beached finally got to you?! :confused:

Unlucky mate, you sound pretty switched on, I'm sure you'll get there one way or another!

[hihi]

Haha, no CB hasn't gotten to me. I didn't disagree so much with his message, more just the way he presented it. I did have a good chat with him though and he is actually a damn nice guy.

I think all of the wannabes realise that the cadet contract is rubbish - for many (myself included) it is a case of desperation. If your current situation isn't so great, then the prospect of a job in a wide-body jet and a salary certainly has appeal, and yet despite that i still had serious doubts anyway. Can you do better? Considering the predicted growth of the airline industry over the next 10-20 years, then yes you probably can.



Just make sure you know what you are signing up for.

[VFE]

I personally never thought the deal was too bad for what it is. It is all relative to what you've experienced thus far in life. But, and the crux of the matter moreover from what I see is that if it was anywhere else them it'd be a cushy little number but "chillaxing" certainly isn't a buzz word you see CX using! For that package you'll never be able to fully relax in a comfortable company. Someone, somewhere from within will at some point be working hard against you together with the fact that CX themselves are tighter than a ducks arse (and that's water tight!). So all in all, its who presents an an offer of this kind and not so much the offer itself that defines it. A jolly charter outfit in Europe pushing this scheme would be wonderful but a multi million dollar corporate giant pushing it is another animal entirely.

It takes a hardened cookie indeed to stomach working alongside guys who've forgotten more than you know and won't mind making it clear too when those bunks need making. One things is for sure, nobody can accept an offer on the CEP and claim that they weren't warned!

VFE.

[gpar]

Hi,

Did someone ever try to update his application on the CX website ?
When I am trying to update it I get a "system error" page (after entering my username/psw).

I sent an email to flightcrew_recruitment@CX and I still didn't received any answers.
I would like to know if it is normal.

Many thanks

[1976BMW]

Thanks for your input,
A. B.:cool:

[NoseGear]

With respect Beemer, you've missed the point of the thread. The "bitter trolls" are serving Cathay pilots who live here in Hong Kong and see the pitfalls of the new contract on offer. To back up a bit, you seem to be looking for the difference between other cadetships and their relative merits. I think the cadet programs are all much of a muchness, so I see no reason to debate the respective courses, and neither are any of the other serving pilots here doing so. The content of the debate, issues, advice, whatever you like to call it is the lack of housing allowance when you arrive here in HK and the effect this will have on your lifestyle, now and in the future. This has a follow on effect on us as it is the "thin edge of the wedge" into our contracts. Do not underestimate the cost of living here, it is wildy expensive and you find yourself constantly getting your wallet out. I read recently inflation is running at 8%, house prices are way out of reach, even a small 500sqft place is 2 million. I am not getting into a big debate on living costs in HK, no doubt there will be someone here shortly to debunk the price of living in HK. I would advise you to do your own research into it.

Good luck with your endeavors.

Nosey

[CX-A330]

Hello friends i am have my stage 1 in HK 2 weeks. This flights is booked unfortunate not fly with cathay this time but hotel i have not book yet i am asked you my friends where is cheap hotel near airport?? i am look at novotel citygate but it is too expensive!!! any help is thankful!

[tupps]

You have to make your own way to the stage 1 interview if you choose HKG as your first option, or you can wait for the interview to come to you, which, as we have learnt can take over a year. If you are invited back for stage 2/3 then Cx pay for your flights, hotel and you also receive a per diem.

[sonsal]

try Royal View Hotel, tsuen wan.

[mtc]

Company says forgivable loan is pro-rated for amount you would owe back.

On another note, perhaps the ~200hr folk getting rejected round 1 has to do with the fact that more experienced pilots are applying again and are on their way to HK for round two this fall, including myself. Out of the 4 that I interviewed with here in Canada that I knew, all 4 made it to round 2 and they all have time in the thousands with airline experience. Another dude from Toronto's Porter is headed there for round 2 as well.

Curious to see who in the end takes it but apparently in CX's words the hiring is "not going well."

[VFE]

I think it will be difficult to pay a mortgage and feed a family on an SO salary.

What you guys need to remember is that you are not going for a 'job interview' here - it is to obtain a place on their Cadet Pilot Program! Following successful completion of the training you 'may' be offered a 'job' as a Second Officer.

There may be a credible argument to say that for anyone who hasn't an airline background, the whole transition from SO to FO will be extremely challenging to say the least. By the time that moment comes the airline industry will be picking up and guys will surely be hired DEFO in front of you on a higher salary. One might argue that CX is just trying to lock in a few guys to an SO position for 6 years with little hope of shifting up the command ladder? Promotion will prove tricky without the skills and experience of medium/short haul if you ask me.....

If I had airline experience already then a position on a CPP would be furthest from my sights (would sit it out and wait for DEP to open again) but I guess it's all down to personal circumstances.

VFE.

[mtc]

In the past did as far as DE went was it just for FO or did they do DESO as well? A colleague who just went there for the transition training (another with 4000+ hrs and airline experience) is going to be in Australia for 4 weeks only. Would this not seem to be as close to DE as you can get? I understand the whole "you are hired as a cadet" thing but what would be different if you were hired under the name DESO? I'm not referring to pay I know the details of the new deal.

Also, and this may be dreaming, if a person with those kind of credentials were hired, as an SO, and DEFO were required, would it not make sense to promote from within? He would hold the requirements and have CX experience, even if he had just been an SO for say 6-12 months?

[Fingersmac]

Also, and this may be dreaming, if a person with those kind of credentials were hired, as an SO, and DEFO were required, would it not make sense to promote from within?

DEFOs were hired in the past despite having DESOs with sufficient experience to be upgraded to FO. So, yes, you're most likely dreaming.

[LazyEights]

As the title of this post suggests, the "opportunities" provided by Cathay Pacific to fly for a premiere airline are fraught with pitfalls, many of which will not become clear to the new joiner until it is too late. At the centre of these issues lies new legislation passed by the HK government, which states, in a nutshell, "same job, same pay". The nett result of this being that Cathay has had to abandon the Direct Entry Pilot (DEP or expat) package in favour of a revamped Cadet Entry Pilot (CEP or local) package which it is offering to all new joiners.

Whilst this is an improvement on the previous, woefully inadequate CEP contract, any prospective new joiner should read the following in order to make the best decision they can based on the facts, not only of the package on offer, but also of life in Cathay and Hong Kong. Many of these facts CX recruiters and management are keen to either keep under wraps or they are simply not aware of them themselves.

Make no mistake about it, the managers and directors that set the bar for contract remuneration and benefits are not toughing it out at the Second Officer end of the salary scale in what is, a highly inflationary economic environment. The facts outlined in this post are provided by people with full knowledge and experience of living in Hong Kong at that level. Oh by the way, about the highly inflationary environment we just mentioned, as a CEP none of your salary or allowances are reviewed or index linked to counter that so essentially, if you sign the contract today, it will be worth less tomorrow. Doesn’t make for a great start does it?

Rank, Promotion Protection and Logging Hours
Cathay will have you join as a Second Officer (SO). Current time to Junior First Officer (J/FO) promotion is running at about 4 years. All this time will be spent at SO salary levels with no increases in allowances, no protection against inflation and no security measures in place should Cathay choose to hire direct entry FO's (DEFO) in the future. A recent court ruling has set precedent on that last point in a case brought to bear by SO's whose upgrades were delayed when Cathay hired a bunch of DEFO's when they desperately needed more pilots. They are fast reaching that point with a growing pilot shortage, so don't think it won't happen again.

Bear in mind that during all of your time as an SO, you will never be in a control seat below 20,000ft, you'll never do a take off or landing other than under assessment in the simulator, you'll never even do a walk around and importantly, you will not be able to log any meaningful hours as you will only be logging P2X time. The P2X rating is a HKCAD invention and allows SO’s to act as cruise pilots only. Hours under this rating are relevant only to the HKCAD, and even then only at a rate of 50% of your in-seat time. Typically you only sit in a control seat for half of a long haul flight, therefore you can only log half of half of your total flight duty time! Translation - you'll need to be on duty for more than 1600 long haul hours to log a pitiful 400. To add insult to injury, when you apply to your next airline, they won't be interested in any of these hours. Does that sound like a productive way to spend 4 years?

Remuneration
Cathay makes a big hoopla about the fact that they have just implemented a "Hong Kong Pilots Allowance". This is essentially a CEP Housing Allowance and we’ll look more into that later. They have also just gone through a series of pay increases in an attempt to appease growing levels of animosity within a pilot community whose pay had essentially been significantly reduced through inflation and zero pay increases over a near 10 year period. So it sounds like “win-win” doesn't it? Sadly not. With pay levels where they stand now, Cathay has managed to close the book on any further discussions about salary until 2014. They also got away with a salary increase of less than half of what the pilot community was seeking. All this from a company that posted record profits of over 1.5 billion US dollars that same financial year. Perhaps that says a bit about the negotiating prowess of the pilot Union, but that's a separate matter. All you need to know is, whatever pomp and fanfare they make about the recent salary increases, they're not enough.

Education
This is actually a semi-positive point. First, the good part. Last year, faced with a very upset group of CEP's who had had enough of their conditions of service but had little bargaining power, Cathay extended the Children's Education Allowance (CEA) to all pilots whereas before it was only available to DEP's. Coincidentally, this happened the day after more than 90 CEP's joined the pilot Union in a show of force and unity against the completely inequitable conditions of service for CEP's when compared with their DEP counterparts. But let’s not be assumptive about the motives behind this very sudden yet welcomed improvement to CEP allowances. So thank you for this Cathay, it's about time.

Now for the other side of the coin and this is particularly important for any new joiners who have children already. There is a variation to the scheme for CEP's. In order to make use of the allowance, your children must be educated in Hong Kong. "Big deal" you say? It is. School slots in Hong Kong are extremely limited, especially at the better schools. Parents are required to sign their children up years before they plan to start school and are also often asked to pay large sums of money (in some cases over HK$1M) to secure a school space - Cathay won't pay this. So you might think an easy option would be to send your children to boarding school. As a CEP, your CEA will not cover this and whilst all of your money is going on rent or savings for your house deposit, you’ll suddenly find yourself in a very difficult position. This little detail is a no cost item for Cathay as the allowance is capped at a maximum, yet they still refuse to grant the same benefit as the DEP's to CEP's. There's a word for this, discrimination. So thanks again Cathay, for reminding us how valued we are as CEP's.

Housing
Housing in Hong Kong is amongst the most expensive in the world. As a brand new SO, you'll receive a cash allowance (called the HKPA) of HK$10,000 which is taxed so it's really about HK$8,400. Cathay is adamant that this is not housing allowance, it is merely an amount to assist CEP’s with living expenses in Hong Kong. Spend it on what you please, it’s a cash allowance after all, but you’ll be spending it on rent so let’s get real and call it what it is.

The allowance is fixed regardless of how the property market behaves and at the moment, the rental market is going up. The allowance is not linked to any index, unlike the DEP housing allowance, which means that as the property market moves, so does the relative value of your HK$8,500. Using HK Government data, the rental indices increased by over 17% in 2010. In the first half of this year the rental indices have increased by over 7% and the trend is set to continue. The result of this is that the effective buying power of the HKPA will reduce by the same amount, so using the first half results, your HK$10,000 is now about HK$7,800 after tax. Consider at this point that to rent a poorly designed 500sq/ft, 1 bedroom apartment in the centre of town starts conservatively at about HK$17,500 and your options become very limited. So how about buying a house instead? Interest rates in Hong Kong are low, so borrowing money is cheap which could make this option appealing. Well, that same 500 sq/ft apartment will cost somewhere in the region of HK$6M. The bank will only loan you 60% of that so you'll need to stump up somewhere in the region of HK$2.7M including costs. On a 20 year mortgage, your monthly repayments would be about HK$19,000. Remember, interest rates are low, so as that increases, so do your repayments. Oh, did we mention that the house was poorly designed? Add another 500k to renovate it.

Forgivable Loans and Bonding
Now, in an attempt to mitigate some of these astronomical costs Cathay is offering what it calls a "Forgivable Loan" to those CEP new joiners who have some previous experience. The largest loan available is in the region of HK$800k with repayment terms decaying to zero over a 6 year period. If you choose to leave before then, the repayment is pro-rata depending on your time served. This is nothing other than a thinly veiled training bond, something that is technically illegal by Hong Kong law, but Cathay has somehow repackaged it to circumvent this. There is still some question as to it’s legality. In order to be eligible for the maximum 800k, a new joiner will have to have over 500 hours experience and will therefore only require a 6 week training course in Adelaide. As a result, Cathay will recoup the cost of training this SO in less than 9 months, yet they bond for 6 years. Take into account the costs of living highlighted above and you can see how that 800k will disappear very quickly and with little beneficial effect to your life. Good thing you don’t have to pay it back then, provided you don’t leave.

In short, in 2 years time when you realize that you can’t make ends meet, your kids aren’t going to get into the school you want, you are living in a shoebox and you’re still in debt, things will come to a head.
• You will not be very employable as you have no meaningful hours thanks to the P2X rating
• Any job you do get will start you at the bottom again
• When you decide to leave, Cathay will hand you a bill for your training bond
• The Hong Kong Inland Revenue Department will hand you a bill for your tax
• You will come to the conclusion that you just spent a fortune in time and money on a job that netted you nothing and Cathay everything.

Doesn’t sound like a very nice way to go through what should be the start of a very rewarding and fulfilling career does it?

Justification
Now we can hear you saying, “so why are you there if it’s so bad?” Good question. The difference is that in the years past when CEPs joined the company Hong Kong was not as expensive as it is now. We had a chance to secure a bolt hole in Hong Kong when it was still affordable. Many CEPs who were fortunate enough to purchase a house a few years ago would not be able to afford to rent that same house now, let alone buy it. CEP’s have been fighting tooth and nail for 20 years for any improvements to their package and it is only in the last 12 months that they have managed to win any ground. Many of the CEPs in Cathay have a family support network in Hong Kong so many still live at home. Time to JFO was shorter, time to command was shorter, DEFO’s were not part of the equation. Things were just simpler and easier. This article is not meant as a comparative between the DEP package and the CEP package, but life as a DEP is considerably more comfortable and palatable than as a CEP which is why Cathay had many people wanting to join under the DEP umbrella. Where are those people now that the offer is different? Nowhere to be seen.

In conclusion, bringing yourself to Cathay on the current CEP scale is setting yourself up for a very big shock and it is not until the CEP package is vastly improved that this will change. Logging hours and extended SO time is not such a great problem so long as you can expect some quality of life through that period where you are not being productive to your career or bank balance. But that is not a reasonable expectation in Hong Kong with Cathay Pacific at this point. The global aviation industry is in a massive pilot shortage at the moment with many competitive jobs out there. Cathay is resting on it’s laurels as a premium carrier to attract star struck candidates to positions it knows it is paying peanuts for and despite being totally aware of this, it cares not. Will you sign a contract with a company that has not hired you in good faith and with the best intentions for your well-being? If so, be very careful as to the path for your future, you may find it is not as rosy a picture as you were led to believe.

[CX-A330]

thanks you sonsal and dan buster for this heads up. I am booked the royal view hotel now. Friends in my study prep for this stage 1 i am come across possibility questions i am asked in the interview. What is it that i can say to this questions?? "what makes you think you will enjoy long haul flights?"

Ok my questions is what do CX pilot do for fun during long haul flight? ok and are the "layover" long enough to explore the destinations city?? I am think i will say i get chance to explore different cities in the world! What do you think friends?

One last thing me and my wife are not plan to have kids soon, she is just finish nurse school is it easy for her to get this nurse jobs there? and if she is get nurse jobs is it possibility for us to own a apartment??

[thomas87]

anyone for second stage at HKG frm 20oct???

[LazyEights]

Dan Buster - Interesting choice of words. I just wrote exactly that in a long article highlighting some hard truth about what CX is not telling you guys who are thinking about joining.

Nutshell - The CEP package is very difficult to live on in Hong Kong to the point where you will be financially handcuffing yourselves by signing on to it. CX is trying to set the bar as low as it can and is seemingly not informing candidates of the real situation the regarding cost of living (which they really don't have any concept of on the CEP salary sale) and the ramifications of the contract it is binding you to. Tread very carefully, ask as many questions as you can and do as much research as you can because it'll be your signature at the bottom of the page.

CX-A330 / Your wife will likely have a hard time getting a job as a nurse in HK if she doesn't speak Cantonese, Mandarin and English. I have no idea about her license transfer-ability but with doctors, it's not that straight forward so assume with nurses it'll be the same. HK is notorious for wanting to assess professional skills themselves rather than just converting them from other states. It's a way to generate income for the Government.

As for buying a house in HK - unless your wife wife is going to earn a lot (which she's not as a nurse) or you have bags of money, you will not be able to purchase a house for many years. I don't know your expectations but to own something even halfway ok, you will need an absolute minimum of 2.5-3M HK dollars cash as a down payment.

Suggest you and all "FH Wannabes" read the article on previous page, consider it and digest the information within. It is provided by current CEP's who know the ins and outs of living in HK and how difficult it is.

Lazy - Out

[mtc]

Thanks for the post it paints a good picture of what to expect. A very dark and depressing picture.

What still gets me is how they would hire DEFOs when there are SOs that hold requirements for DEFO if they just came off the street. It seems crazy and is just asking for disgruntled, angry pilots.

[miguli]

I have been following this thread for two months now, that is since I learned that I would not likely see a pay-rise at my current job as PA-34 flight instructor for, oh well ever. That, by the way, was also the trigger for me to apply for Cathay.

With all the experts here I would just lie to ask you to put yourselves into my shoes for just one minute and consider the options, whichafter you are more than welcome to give any suggestion you feel I should consider:

Facts:
- 39 year old male (I know, if I was a female I would've been hired long time ago but I'm not)
- 1600 hours total now, last flight 3 hours ago, accumulating at 50-75 hours MEP each month, 1185 hours dual given of which 710 in Seneca III/Seminole. However at the moment I feel that I can wipe my bottom every evening with the hours I accumulate as none of that is is multi-crew.
- I have been to Hong Kong 8 times now, I love the city for several reasons and I am dying to get out of the western-European ****hole I live in now.
- My wife has a very reputable profession which practically allows her to get a job and live anywhere in the world. She is willing to move to Asia anytime.
- If it makes any difference, we have no kids and will most likely never have. Would be interesting to know if this makes a difference at an interview. From someone who can give an impartial, purely rational answer, that is.
- As an option, I am seriously considering feeding myself on rice alone for two years and getting a 737NG type rating but I am curious if that would help at all. There have been some instances who seem to just want the type rating and not the notorious "500 hours on type". Would I be flushing my wallet down the drain again or is it something to consider? A lot of people here feel that a wannabe-first officer should still not have to pay for his type rating but I want to be a realist in this matter.
- Oh, if it is still unclear to someone reading this, I am willing to sacrifice pay, social life (again, the wife's work has taught me a new meaning to the term "social life") and friends in order to do what I have always wanted to for a living.
- I HAVE thought about it, long and hard; bottom line is that I don't see why a man in my situation should NOT take this job? What guarantees do I have that there will ever be a better one while I'm still in contention? I currently earn 25000 HKD/month and the offer is 45000, basic math tells me I'm a fool not to take it even if the money is not my priority.

Pessimists, now is your turn...

[Jagdfalke]

You are only a few hundred hours from being able to apply with an airline. You have enough twin time to land you a regional/turboprop job. The Cathay Cadetship would be an ok option for somebody who cannot afford to pay for their training, but anyone who has enough experience to be eligible for the Cadetship transition training can probably do better elsewhere.

[LazyEights]

Miguli - Let me address some of your points.

Age 39 - I hate to say this but you may be getting a little long in the tooth although with the rate of take up at this level, the desperate may be willing to accept the desperate. Sorry to put it like that.

HK - It's a great city....... to visit. It's a great city in which to live....... if you can afford it. I don't know what your wife does, but unless it's a significant earner, in region of +40k/mth. You will be in the red each month. Take into account you will have periods of time off as an SO where you may want to travel. If your wife is 9-5'ing, she will not be joining you on those travels much. Usual leave allowance in HK offices is 10 days/yr.

Kids - As you are male, CX probably doesn't care, as i expect with other airlines. Probably a small upside because you'll be even cheaper for them to hire.

737NG - Why? Who are you applying to? Only HK Airlines flies them as a HK carrier. If you're applying to them, imagine may be a plus. If you're shooting for any other carrier, save your money. You're going to need it.

Social Life - Way to enter mid-life. Sounds like fun.... As an SO, you are a cruise pilot and radio operator. Even in the cruise you will always be PNF. Stick time = 0hrs. The novelty wears off very quickly and you will miss your Seminole like your first love.

Bottom Line - Yep it's more money but that's not your priority. Who knows, it may not be more money when the wash is done. Fair call, your options are limited at this stage. I still think you're selling out all your work to date for a very cheap price and do believe you will experience a pretty poor lifestyle in HK. It's a real pressure cooker and can't believe that there are not better, more respectful packages available to you. Corporate perhaps?

[LazyEights]

@BaronBlue - Interest rate is P-2.5ish. P being the Prime Interest Rate which is sitting at 5.25% now. Banks will loan 60% of their valuation of the property for properties valued below 8M. Above 8M it's 50%. Typically bank valuations are lower than asking prices so you need to fill the gap with cash. Maximum total loan:income ratio is 50%. ie. if you earn 40k/mth your max payments can not be more than 20k/mth. A typical example below for an unrenovated, old 500sq/ft apartment in town;

Price : 5M
Valuation : 4.2M
Downpayment : 1.68M (40% of 4.2M) + 800k (gap) = 2.48M
Agent Commission : 50k (1%)
Govt Tax : 150k (3%)
Legal Fees : ~30k (varies)
Renovations : 500k
Total Cash Required: 3.21M
Monthly Payments : 13,350/mth over 20 years

[miguli]

LazyEights,

737NG is an option if for some reason I do not end up in HK. I would then seriously consider getting a type rating as I am a realist too and see how airlines are leaning towards applicants paying for it. I know I am making a lot of people scream but I like to face the facts.

If it wasn't obvious enough from my last post, I am ready to sacrifice my 200k€ yearly earnings for something much less as long as I get to do what I was meant to do. If I have to start off as a relief pilot for some years then so be it. It's still a job in an airplane.

[miguli]

Jagdfalke,

Can you please give me just one hint where to look for a regional/turboprop job with say 2000 hrs total and 1000 MEP?
Everywhere I look I see the notorious 500 hours multi-crew requirement but don't see any feasible way of getting it.
As I said, I am seriously considering getting myself a type rating since, as I understand, some airlines (Ryanair and Primera come to mind) are already hiring those who are willing to pay for their type rating.
I have already paid for everything myself, why break the tradition :8

[tupps]

Log In | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/groups/148941511863128/)

[GlassesJacketShirt]

so is the general conensus on this thread that CX only hires cadets to become a s/o for 4-6 years then fail them at the JF/O upgrade?

[LazyEights]

GJS - No I don't think that is an accurate summary at all.

[VFE]

But CX do have a bit of a bad reputation for checking instead of training, and certainly the impression one gets at interview is that its very much a "prove yourself to us" approach as opposed to a "show us yourself and we will show who we are going forwards" type affair. 'Job' interviews should ber a two way street. Its an opportunity for a company to sell itself to you and obviously for you to sell yourself to the company. Nowhere did I feel that CX did much to impress other than prop me up in their own hotel (after tapping me up for HKD200 deposit which they never mentioned in their pre interview communications) and fly us there and back. Big willies. Their attitude at interview was very "do as you're told, serve yourself and then bugger off". Punchy corporate nonesense in other words. No sense of real welcome to CX, do you wanna cuppa old chap? Just sit down and dodge the bullets we're gonna fire. I think anyone who walks away feeling that its a warm company has had a seriously bad upbrining in life.

So, would they groom you with warm mentoring expertise, or put the fear of God into you regarding upgrade failures?

You decide!

VFE.

[LazyEights]

Don't let GJS start a strain that suggests CX are out to fail you on your upgrade. That's not the case at all. Just know that it might be a while before you actually get to your upgrade, by which time you'll be in some serious debt.

@Miguli - So be it but there are better flying jobs out there where you don't have to sell your soul for little return in the medium term. If you're willing to drop the salary, go fly something that you actually get to fly.

[Wallstreet]

Hello,

Despite reading a whole lot of the Cathay thread here, I'm still considering applying for the cadet program.
I am trying to find out how the costs of living are in HK for a single.
It seems to me there are quit a lot of cheap appartments, but I wonder if any extra costs are attached when you hire such a appartment. I see a lot of appartments in the range of 10.000 HKD.

But I wonder if there are extra costs in hiring such an appartment.
For example,

Management Fee
Government Rate
Government Rent

What rates are to be expected, and are there more costs that I'm not aware of ?

I have also found that indeed food is very expensive in Hong Kong, but you can save a hell of a lot by shopping in local supermarkets rahter then the ''expat'' supermarkets ?

I would like to make a list of living costs to see what you would have left to live from after your normal expensis.

45.000 pay
- 7000 tax
- 10.000 appartment
- 3.500 food ?
- 1.500 insurance ?
- 5000 transport through HK ?
_____________________________
that would leave: 18,000 HKD ?

Please note that I have never been in Honk Kong and I have just quessed these figures, and I may have forgot to include costs ?

Hope some of you living in Honk Kong can help me with this..

[404 Titan]

Wallstreet

Your cost of expenses isn’t anywhere near accurate/complete. I posted this a while ago. So even though the pay is accurate the expenses are now higher. The principle though remains the same. These expences are for a single person. What happens when you have a partner, get married and have kids. You need to think long term before coming here, not just at what appears to you as free flying lessons and an easy way into an airline.

Taxable Income

HK$422040 SO annual salary
HK$ 35170 Annual Discretionary Bonus (If Paid)
HK$ 27642 Hourly Duty Pay based on 84 hrs/month less 3 weeks annual leave
HK$120000 Hong Kong Pilot Allowance
HK$604852 Total income
HK$108000 Less basic tax free threshold
HK$496852 Taxable income

Tax calculation for first year of service.

HK$ 800 First 40000 @ 2%
HK$ 2800 Next 40000 @ 7%
HK$ 4800 Next 40000 @ 12%
HK$64065 Remaining 376852 @ 17%
HK$72465 Total Tax (Based on Annual Discretionary Bonus being paid)

HK$66486 Total Tax (No Annual Discretionary Bonus)

In you first year of employment in Hong Kong you also need to budget for Provisional Tax, i.e. one year’s tax in advance. Therefore you need to double the above tax figures for your first tax bill.

HK$144930 Total Tax (ADB Paid) = 34.3% of your monthly salary.
HK$132972 Total Tax (No ADB Paid) = 31.5% of your monthly salary.

This is a higher tax burden in your first year of service than most western countries.

Expenditure/month

Tax: $12100
Rent: $15000
Food: $4000
Home Phone: $500
Mobile: $120
Internet: $200
Electricity: $1000
Gas: $300
Water: $150
Public Transport: $1000
Miscellaneous: $3000
Total: $37370

[Wallstreet]

Titan,

Thank you for the reply on my questions.

So all in all
Total annual NET income: 604.852-66.486 = 538.366
Total montly NET income: 44.863

If we take average tax per year, not just year one then:
Total costs per month according to you: 31.320

I still think those expenses Can be cut, but even with this expenditure you would have about 15.000HKD left per Month.

I know I should go for the long term and that's exactly why I'm considering this Cadet program ! Even with the starting salary you have 15.000 left per month. And if you are upgraded in 4 years you would earn 40.000 more, that would leave you with about 50.000 per month, and this will only become more. I am though concerned about the inflation factor.

Honk Kong is expensive, I agree. But you won't have an huge dept for your training ! A dept of 100.000USD is not uncommon for a flight training. And your salary will rise in time, so I really don't see the point why a single man would not take this oppertunity. Tell me if I'm wrong.

I have considered a lot of possibilities, and I still think this is a good one. I hope to be selected for Cathay Pacific, but I'm also applying for the BA Cadet program.:)

[404 Titan]

Wallstreet
So all in all
Total annual NET income: 604.852-66.486 = 538.366
Total montly NET income: 44.863
No it isn’t. You have included the “Annual Discretionary Bonus” then quoted the tax on no “Annual discretionary Bonus” being paid. Also there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be paid and you certainly can’t plan your monthly budget on it.

($604,852 – $35,170(ADB) – $66486(TAX)) ÷ 12 = $41933 NET

If we take average tax per year, not just year one then:
Total costs per month according to you: 31.320
I didn’t say that at all. That is the minimum percentage you will have to budget for tax in your first year if the Annual Discretionary Bonus isn’t paid.

The point I am trying to make is that you will get a substantial tax bill in your first year. It is absolutely pointless averaging it out over a number of years because the HKIRD are going to want their money in that first year and you have to budget for it accordingly, i.e. up to 34.3% of your salary. In subsequent years, excluding when you are budgeting to pay the tax on the forgivable loan, you can budget for tax at about 17% per year.
I still think those expenses Can be cut
You want to tell me how you will cut those expenses by anything meaningful? Have you ever lived in Hong Kong? Have you asked any recent cadets, i.e. those that have started in Hong Kong since the beginning of the year, how much they are paying for rent? I have flown with a few now and all of them are paying between 12 – 15000 per month in rent. They looked at the cheaper places you have seen on the internet and all of them were “QUOTE”, “substandard”. Rents have also gone up about 21% in the last 18 months. Most cadets are now worried that when their leases come up for renewal in 24 months they will be forced to move into this substandard accommodation because they won’t be able to afford the new lease.
but even with this expenditure you would have about 15.000HKD left per Month.
I think you should check your maths. I work out the surplus in your first year as HK$4563 per month.
41933 – 37370 = 4563
And if you are upgraded in 4 years you would earn 40.000 more, that would leave you with about 50.000 per month, and this will only become more.You have made the assumption that you will upgrade in 4 years. Upgrades have only increased in the last 18 years that SO’s have been employed and this has been during some of the largest expansion periods in the airlines history. 4 years may be the current upgrade timing but with the airline likely to employ DEFO’s in the not too distant future, watch that upgrade time increase to between 6 – 8 years. By the way the upgrade is from SO to JFO not FO. The HKPA remains the same as SO when you are a JFO and the pay rise I can assure you isn’t HK$40,000.00.
Honk Kong is expensive, I agree. But you won't have an huge dept for your training !
Yes you will. The HKIRD will be taxing you once the forgivable loan is forgiven. That equates to a HK$187000 + $187000 (provisional tax) = HK$374000 tax bill on top of your normal tax in your 6th year. You could easily have a total tax bill in your 6th year that is in the order of HK$500,000+ but your gross salary could be as little as HK$710,000. This leaves you with a net salary of about HK$210,000 or HK$17,500 per month. How are you going to survive when in today’s dollars your expenses excluding taxes are HK$25,270?

[ryan_sharara]

Hey fellow pilots,

Do you know if CX is doing and initial interviews in Dubai, UAE ?

Thanks for any reply !
Happy Landings

[Wallstreet]

Thanks for your reply Titan,

So, the first year you won't have a lot of dollars left, some more the second year.

Do you think the upgrade time will actually increase to 6-8 years ? Carriers all around the world are ordering extra planes, those need to be filled with crews. Yes they might employ DEFO's but when the demand gets high will they not upgrade SO's faster too ? There might be a pilot shortage in the next decadeh

Demand for airline pilots set to soar - USATODAY.com (http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2011/06/Demand-for-airline-pilots-set-to-soar/48661596/1)

Is it possible Not work from HK base / plans for opening any other basis ?

Do you think the BA cadet program is better, or what would you consider a good alternative ?

Thanks !

[GlassesJacketShirt]

As S/O is it possible to live overseas, and commute to Hong Kong? so the high cost of rent wouldn't affect you

[Em773ER]

That question has been answered many times before, and it's no. CX used to offer overseas bases (excluding housing allowances) so that it would save costs, but now there is no need for that any more with us iCadets, maybe for the senior guys perhaps. You best be looking to spend the rest of your career with CX in HK. Some of us got into the CX CPP knowing what we were getting ourselves into, and I suggest you do the same. Hope that helps answer your question.

Em77W

[404 Titan]

Em773ER

I think he is referring to commuting rather than being based. As an SO it is possible but highly unadvisable, especially from North America where the loads are always high and the chances of not getting on as staff travel are very high forcing him to regularly purchase full fare tickets. Failure to be in Hong Kong for a duty is potentially a sack able offense. He also needs to consider that he will be treated by the Canadian tax authorities as a Canadian resident for tax purposes and also the Hong Kong Inland Revenue Department as a Hong Kong resident for tax purpose, potentially paying double taxation.

[CX-A330]

You are wrong i am talked to my friend is S/O for CX via cadet he is told me bases for S/Os are opening in few years he is already look to buy house in the country he is want to be based in. Does anybody knows if CX have ever ever based S/Os in germany?? Ok thanks. Stage 1 next week wish me luck friends!! :ok:

[404 Titan]

CX-A330

Your friend, with all due respect doesn’t know what he/she is talking about. CX has never offered permanent bases to SO’s and never will. If fact there is a very strong argument that permanent bases to all ranks is a thing of the past considering the legal mine field the company has found itself in since on shoring bases and the fact many bases now cost the company more, particularly for new hires, than a Hong Kong base.

[hkguy]

I would like to clarify exactly what the forgivable loan is.

I had been under the impression that it merely represented the cost of training at FTA Adelaide. So, my first understanding was that a cadet with zero flying experience will be lumbered with a $1.1m HKD training cost, which should they leave before 6 years of service the cadet would be liable to pay, however the training cost/forgivable loan will be 'forgiven' after 6 years of service. So therefore by partaking in the cadet training you are effectively bonded to give Cathay at least 6 years service.

The more I read on this and other threads, the more it sounds like this is not the case at all and the forgivable loan is simply a 'joining gift' from Cathay upon being hired as an SO which is effectively yours and a 'gift' rather than a loan as long as you work for Cathay for at least 6 years.

Can someone tell me which is correct?:confused:

Also, what is the tax situation. From what I gather, you are taxed on the whole amount once the loan is 'forgiven' at the end of your 6th year of service. Am I right? If so, that sounds fair enough to me as it is money you are being given after all, much like your monthly salary. I can see how it may be hard to pay the tax bill without having purposefully planned and saved for it though. If, however the forgivable loan is merely the cost of your FTA training, then this would mean you are paying tax on the money Cathay pay to train you, which is definitely a bit sneaky of them.

Thanks!:ok:

[404 Titan]

Wallstreet
Do you think the upgrade time will actually increase to 6-8 years ? Carriers all around the world are ordering extra planes, those need to be filled with crews.
Most of CX’s orders are replacements of older aircraft, i.e. B744, A343, older A333 and older B777. In the last 18 years upgrade times for SO's has only got worse, even during times of expansion.
Yes they might employ DEFO's but when the demand gets high will they not upgrade SO's faster too ? There might be a pilot shortage in the next decadeh
If the demand gets high it is even more reason for CX to hire DEFO’s. CX is sector limited in its training, i.e. they don’t have enough flights to do all the training they would like. Hiring DEFO’s halves the number of training sectors required to fill the seats, one DEFO course as opposed to an upgrade of an SO to JFO and an induction course for a new SO to replace him.
Is it possible Not work from HK base / plans for opening any other basis ?
Please read my post at #3264. Simple answer is no.
Do you think the BA cadet program is better, or what would you consider a good alternative ?
I couldn’t make a comment on the BA cadet scheme as I am unfamiliar with it.

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Yea, I'm also wondering about the forgiveable loan. If you were to be taxed on it, would it be possible to not take the loan at all or just keep some money aside from the loan to pay for the tax when it comes

[Sp0r3]

Yea, I'm also wondering about the forgiveable loan. If you were to be taxed on it, would it be possible to not take the loan at all or just keep some money aside from the loan to pay for the tax when it comes

I don't think you have the option to not take the loan nor leave the money aside. That money never gets to your hands. From what I can interpret with the information given, the you sign the contract acknowledging the existence of such loan given to you by Cathay and the loan is used entirely to pay for the training involved in Adelaide. Even if you have 1.1 million HKD laying around in your bank account, Cathay will still require you to take a loan from them. The loan is a mere workaround to the bonding law made by the HK government. This way, Cathay can ensure they have a warm body for 6 years without fearing that the warm body will leave any minute. As for your "1.1m 6 years bonus", a smart CPP SO will calculate the required tax amount and spread it amongst the 72 months of salary. It's a safe bet to use 15% flat rate tax than the multi-tier tax rate for that year.

[hkguy]

Ok, so you never actually the receive the 1.1million and it only represents the cost of the training in Adelaide! Wow!

That really does have an effect on the SO package, as the tax on that at 15% would be $165k, which is over $2k per month if spread over 72 months.

This tax is not money that CX are pocketing themselves, so I can't believe there is not another way they can think to bond people without costing them $165k!!!

We do definitely have the correct end of the stick with regards to this , yes?

[404 Titan]

hkguy

Don’t forget you will also have to pay provisional tax on this, so effectively doubling it. You will though get this back the following year as it is a one off “bonus” for want of a better word. To budget this over 72 months you will need to put aside HK$4600.00 per month on top of your normal budget for tax.

If you are single and earn more than HK1,518,000.00 in the financial year the HKIRD will calculate your income tax at the “Standard Rate” 15% rather than the “Progressive Rate” i.e. tiered rate that has a top marginal tax rate of 17%. You are effectively being charged the lower rate of tax between the two methods.

[Hamid_27]

Isn't the Company forgiveable loan HK$ 1.2 Million, of which training cost (depending on which course you are doing) is taken from, and what is left over is given to you as a joining bonus, which is then taxable?

I'm flying off to HK for stage 2 later today and I will ask them, and also report on the situation regarding UK 200 hour integrated flight school graduates who are looking to join the advanced 30 week course, because I personally won't except the 61 week course and start from the beginning all over again, just doesn't make any sense.

Anyone who will be there this week let me know I will be at the Headlands till Thursday if you want to have a chat.

cheers,

Hamid

[404 Titan]

Hamid_27
Isn't the Company forgiveable loan HK$ 1.2 Million, of which training cost (depending on which course you are doing) is taken from, and what is left over is given to you as a joining bonus, which is then taxable?

If you had to pay back the portion of the loan to pay for your flying training then this would be the case. As the whole loan is forgiven after six years of service then it will be 100% taxable. You have received a benefit in the form of a licence which you haven’t had to pay for directly until the loan given to you by CX is forgiven and that loan then becomes income. Income doesn’t have to be in the form of cash only.

As for the size of the loan I can’t tell you that but considering the Aussie dollar is so high against the HK dollar, I wouldn’t be surprised.
I'm flying off to HK for stage 2 later today and I will ask them
Personally I don’t think the interviews would know the answer to the question as they aren’t qualified to tell you. I will say though that it has been brought to our union’s attention that interviews may have been telling applicants that they would upgrade in no more than 18 months. Currently there is about 360 current SO’s waiting for an upgrade. It is impossible to upgrade so many SO’s in 18 months. When the DFO was asked about this by our union he said that all upgrades would be in seniority order and new hire SO’s wouldn’t be jumping the cue. As current upgrades are taking 4 years, it would appear interviewers may have been telling applicants what they wanted to hear in an attempt to dress up the job.

[Wallstreet]

In the Netherlands costs for a flight training would be considered 'negative income'. If you spend 100,000Eur, you can get this back via Tax, so you wont be paying any tax untill you have reached the 100,000 but you would still have to pay the interest.

This system does not exist in Honk Kong I assume ? If it does, Cathay is not paying Anything for your training at all.

Titan, you say you will get the tax back the next year ? So you will get 165.000*2=330.000HKD back ? Or only 165.000 ? How does this work then ? Do you need to earn enough to pay 165.000 in tax that year in order to get it back, or will they just deposit it ?

:ok:

[404 Titan]

Wallstreet

You will only get the provisional tax back, i.e. HK$165,000.00. Provisional Tax is tax paid in advanced based on a projection derived from your previous year’s income. Hong Kong doesn’t have a “Pay as you earn” income tax regime where your employer collects your tax on your behalf and pays it to the government. In Hong Kong you pay the tax directly to the government in two yearly instalments, January and April.

This system does not exist in Honk Kong I assume ? If it does, Cathay is not paying Anything for your training at all.
No this system doesn't exist in Hong Kong.

If you want to get more information regarding the HK tax system, have a read of the Hong Kong Inland Revenue Department’s web site.

Hong Kong Inland Revenue Department (http://www.ird.gov.hk/eng/welcome.htm)

[Wallstreet]

Ok, Thank you !

[jsmitty01]

I can't see anything other than Icadets upgraded as normal when their turn comes around. The Icadet T's and C's are to lower the cost base of the tech crew group, unless DEFO's are hired on the same contract (or less!) i can't see the reasoning to go and pay more for someone else. The quicker CX upgrades Icadets to FO and CPT the lower the cost base will be.

Can any current Icadet confirm that the 'forgivable loan' is pro rata?

[404 Titan]

jsmitty01

If the company was to offer anything but local terms for DEFO’s then their whole argument that the RDO prohibits them paying expat terms & conditions is blown out of the water. So yes DEFO’s when it happens will be on local terms.

Regarding cost of upgrades, one DEFO course is cheaper than one Icadet SO induction course and one JFO upgrade course. The company has done this before because of the significant cost saving factor and also because it is quicker to get qualified bums in the seats.

[Cpt. Underpants]

...qualified bums in seats - yes, but hardly competent. Oasis et al springs to mind.

[USMCMBA]

"Do you think the upgrade time will actually increase to 6-8 years ? Carriers all around the world are ordering extra planes, those need to be filled with crews. Yes they might employ DEFO's but when the demand gets high will they not upgrade SO's faster too ? There might be a pilot shortage in the next decadeh

Demand for airline pilots set to soar - USATODAY.com (http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2011/06/Demand-for-airline-pilots-set-to-soar/48661596/1)"

This is a very good article and I want to thank you for providing this link. Personally I take these kinds of articles, hyping this so called “pilot shortage” with a grain of salt as I have seen stuff like this for many years. Back in the mid 90’s when I went to Embry-Riddle, their freshman recruiting pamphlets were filled with graphs and projections of how fast the aviation sector would grow and how many pilots the airlines would need. If you read some of this stuff, you would get the sense that all the airlines would need pilots so bad, they would send recruiters to ERAU’s graduation ceremony and “pluck” them as they walk off with a degree.

The reality is, there was never a real “pilot shortage”. It seems something always happened; 9/11, bankruptcies of the big carriers, rise in fuel costs, Lehman, AIG etc etc. I believe there are still a lot of challenges ahead which may not make this “pilot shortage” happen ever. For one, with the military (US) winding down coupled with more use of drone aircraft, they will need less pilots (in cockpit) and hence there will be larger pool of highly qualified pilots coming into the commercial market as the military downsizes. There will be lower growth in the economies of US, Europe and even Asia (to include China and India) in the coming years. IATA just predicted a 29% drop in revenue in global air travel in 2012 due to the global economic slow down. It seems the average consensus from economists believe the US and EU will not recover until 2015 at best. I also believe that in the distant future (maybe next 15-30 years) it maybe very likely we will see the cockpit crew reduced to one from the current two. This may sound outrageous but if you think about it, back just 10 years ago, there were quite a few planes flying around the world with a crew of three, 30 years ago, there were commercial airliners still flying with as many five (pilot, co-pilot, engineer, navigator and radio operator). Also, I am sure eventually the technology you find in military drones, will make its way into civil aircraft just like the many other technology before it (ie fly-by wire). It is amazing what automation can do at the expense of humans. Lastly, there are still pilots on furlough, unemployed pilots and tons of pilots who forked out a pretty penny so they can earn a CPL. Active pilots in US alone, 125,738 have CPL, 144,600 with ATP, I would think that is a large pool of candidates.

Now, this whole China and India and how they will need thousands of aircraft and tens of thousands of pilots a year just to fill those cockpit… The truth is, they can find the pilots they need through their military (like most countries in Asia) and they are sending their own nationals overseas for flight training and building their own flight schools/programs as well. What they will need for the time being are experienced pilots, particularly captains, people with tons of PIC time. I can assure you, once these countries fill their cockpits with the right experience and talent with their own nationals, they will no longer need any expat pilots and the expats will be the first to be let go if there are any downsizing. So basically, unless if you are a mainland Chinese or an Indian or a captain with tons of PIC times, you will not be able to enjoy the boom in their pilot hiring.

So with all this, my conclusion is, although a pilot shortage would be nice, don’t expect it to automatically happen. The airline is a very cyclical industry. In good times, the airlines make billions, but bad times they lose billions. I have a very good friend who worked as a vice president for various departments in Lockheed in past 30 years on some very neat projects (and some highly top secret and he would only give me bits and pieces of info as teaser). He said after the L-1011 flop, they did market analysis to determine if it was feasible to design and market more commercial aircraft. He ordered a study of the airline profitability through a span of a couple of decades and found that the net profit within the time frame for all the major airline was slightly negative. Another words, in simplistic terms, the study added up all the profits and minus all the losses of all major carriers within so many years and found they actually lost money overall, as opposed to many other industries (manufacturing, services, IT etc) that had an overall profit. Keep in mind too that this study was done around early 80’s when airlines had a better margin not the cut throat environment it is now. So even if you do see some signs of a pilot shortage, pilots being hired at a “record” pace, remember, the bad times will come for the airlines like it always has. It is a matter of when, and when it does, this “pilot shortage” will never matter.

[boxerpilot]

G'day mate, I was wondering if u could send me the package that was offered to u.

cheers

[Cpt. Underpants]

Us: "The package is sub-standard, unlivable, the CoL is sky high, 4-6 years to FO upgrade, diminishing CoS, belligerent, untrustworthy (mis)management, indentured labour..."

Them: "Sounds GREAT, where do I sign?"
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Sp0r3]

G'day mate, I was wondering if u could send me the package that was offered to u.

cheers

I'm also interested in the JKI package. If anyone has a copy of it and is willing to share, that would be great!

[boxerpilot]

Good evening, I have been following the threads with interest. Pls if anyone is much the wiser, shed some advice on what you would do in my circumstance. I am a military pilot with the Singapore airforce with 2900 Hours on mostly twin jet time as well as have an FAA ATPL. I Have been offered a place with Singapire Airlines on a transition scheme. For starters, I would also like to highlight that SQ requires all cadets to go through C-172,Baron followed by the Mustang in Perth and Maroochydore. Thereafter, there is a current 1 year backlog to get on a B777 simulator to start SO training. Local terms do not provide housing and an FO's salary is approximately 60K HKG dollars. However, it takes us military guys, based on sectors and merit approximately 7yrs to make Captain where pay scales can go up to 100-120K HKG dollars average. Cost of living is similar to HK if not more.
That's why I have been intrigued by what CX has to offer and I have been advised that I would be on the 12 week course in Adelaide based on my license and past experience. With a forgiveable loan, less taxes as well as a SO's salary of 45k per month, it does appear attractive as I am looking for a 20 year career as opposed to jumping ship every 5-10 yrs. I see the risk to be greatest in the time to make command in CX. With 360 SOs, I do not expect to jump the queue and that means 12 yrs to make command whereas SQ is 7 years. Any opinions? thank u.

[SMOC]

Guys doing Command right now are in their 12th year in CX, you better start thinking 15yrs at least, probably more like 20 yrs if you join today.

[captain.weird]

It is a little bit silence over here.. How are the selections went for those who had those? They would come over to Europe, but nothing seen over here...

[USMCMBA]

"Us: "The package is sub-standard, unlivable, the CoL is sky high, 4-6 years to FO upgrade, diminishing CoS, belligerent, untrustworthy (mis)management, indentured labour..."

Them: "Sounds GREAT, where do I sign?"


Sub-standard package maybe, but I know of at least 14 million unemployed Americans who would just love to have a job right now. Enough said.

[tarmac12]

Does anyone know how I can contact Cathay HR in regards to updating my application? I applied around 9 months ago and in the last 6 months have clocked up a few more hours so I went on the website to update my CV and my log in doesn't work. Went to logde a new app and got a message that one was in the system already. Tried the "forgot user id" tab and another message saying my details didn't exist! Called the numbers but no one ever anwers. Wrote emails but no reply.

Any suggestions?

Cheers

[concord84]

Hi, everybody.
Has anybody been invited for an interview next month? If so we should get in touch and exchange infos and tips.
All the best.
C84

[captain.weird]

Hi concord.. are you 0hr cadet?

[Cleared for take-off]

Any pilots out there applied for CX lately, with CPL and CIR?

Any response from CX? I've heard that some people get contacted one year after they submit their application? The title is what I received from they, saying they can't advise me when the next interview at my preferred location will be and in my application my address is an HK addr.

All the best to the ones getting interviewed :D

[concord84]

Cleared for take off,
I applied for the first time about a year ago and heard nothing....reapplied in April and got an e-mail two days ago inviting me for an interview in London, UK.
Just pe patient I would say.....it is frustrating I know....afterall am in the same situation!
All the best.
C84

[YC-W]

Hi everyone, I just submitted my application last week. Does anyone one know when is the next selection in Auckland NZ? Cheers

[Lammie]

I get the exact same thing, cannot update details, new password
doesnt work either as it doesnt recognize me.
Hmmmm....

[imran_x66]

Hello Everyone!

I am currently a 3rd Year Aerospace engineering student in England.I would like to apply for the Cathay Pacific cadet pilot programme after i finish my degree in June.I would like to know what are the interview dates in London?How long do they take to respond after you hand in you application?
Also, is there any other airline programme that is not restricted to certain nationals?


I sent and email to Cathay pacific a few days back, but no one seems to respond.I would really appreciate if anyone helps me with my queries.Cheers!!!

[concord84]

imran_x66,
6-12 months wait after you apply seem to be a pretty standard waiting time after you send your application, other cadet pilot schemes? Ever heard of BA?
I can't help with the interview dates.
If you e-mailed them a few days ago expect an answer in a few weeks if any at all, and that is with any airline not just CX.:ugh:All the best.
C84

[SMOC]

Just to keep you all informed an F/O friend with 3 small kids all under 5 has just signed lease renting for $95,000 per month!

[imran_x66]

Thnx a lot concord 84.
Yeah heard of BA but I don't think I meet all their requirement.
They require unrestricted right to live and work in the UK which I dont think I will have after I finish my degree as I am on a student Visa here.
How about Etihad? Any hope of them resuming their programme?

[Flying Mechanic]

you will be slumming it on 95000 for sure, must be Government housing in Tung Chung.

[Hold_Short]

Hi there,

Can anyone let me know why the Cathay Pilot Recruitment online process won't accept my application. After I state that:
I have over 1000hrs
Current CIR
Nil ATPLs

Says, sorry you don't meet our requirements? I have emailed to ask why but still no response. I'm guessing that if you have inexcess of 1000hrs, CIR nil ATPLS that to them is TOO MUCH experience for the cadetship. Anyhelp?

[Cleared for take-off]

Hey concord84,
When's your interview, and do you hold a JAA license?
PM me if you don't mind

[aile_striker]

Does anyone know for Stage 2 Mental Mathematics test, it says you cannot use a calculator, but do they allow you to use pen and paper?

[VFE]

Yes, but it's still a pain in the rectum aile.

However, I would personally worry more about the interview and team exercises as these give the HR team more of an impression on your abilities and suitability for CX.

VFE.

[thomas87]

can u plz give an insight into stage 2 in the manner u faced it/./??

[Kezler]

Got my business class ticket for the wife and I to go over to HK for Stage 2. doing a bit of study, anyone else in the same boat, let's compare some notes

I'll be there in Nov, anyone else going to be there, send me a PM.

[Cessna414CC]

They gave business class for you & your wife for a stage 2?

[ground to air]

Hi Guys,

Just want to hear from anyone from Sydney who has a stage 1 interview in Brisbane on the 4th of November or round that time and who is interested in a study buddy, two heads/minds are better than one.

cheers.

[dreamjob]

I was told today that a "Cathay representative" attended a local Aero club encouraging all the starry eyed trainee pilots to apply to the CX cadetship and finish their training with them. That way they can "get a number" early and be upgraded before all experienced pilots that are hired after them.

Is recruitment getting that desperate?

:ugh:

[Zack-Q]

Hi All!

I failed SIA final interview recently, have aerospace engineering degree and psychology minor and 19 dual hours with 0.2 solo hours on piper. I applied cathay & am looking at all other airlines too but didn't find any which I can apply for immediately given financial restrictions.

Being a fresh graduate, I am also wondering what careers I can start with to improve my standing as a cadet pilot applicant with Singapore Airlines or other airlines or companies. Thank you much!

Zack

[coobg002]

Hi guys, just noticed the "rapid command" tab in the flying positions section on the CX website. Is that very new or has it been around for a while. Just wondering cos it says applicants can vote to move to CX passenger flights after 3 years and these people are on bases, not in HK. Would that affect SOs getting a base and/or making it to a captain position in the long term or not? Just checking :)

[GlassesJacketShirt]

There also seems to be a first officer and second officer tab that appears to be new. Does this indicate Cathay will be accepting direct entry S/Os and F/Os soon and how will this affect the cadet programs?

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

Could anybody with knowledge of the Advanced entry course (30wk) please describe the training regime undertaken @ FTA?

PM if required

[Wannaberightseat]

Anybody interested in sharing a 747-200 sim in the south of England in November. Dates to be confirmed. PM me if interested.

[ASH1111]

You guys have got to be kidding me. We are trying to share some wisdom, and you guys just keep coming.

Do NOT complain to me in the flight deck in 4 years.

I don't want to hear it. You have all been warned.

[soundbite]

Nobody would complain to you, son. You've offered nothing constructive. Don't flatter yourself to being somebody's sounding board.

[ASH1111]

Every bit of "constructive" advice has been soundly rejected by starry eyed youngins. What more can one say than has already been said.

So....I guess.....enough said!

[soundbite]

.....and then the other troll appears. One feeds the other. Dan, you're the worst of the lot.

[Mad-Dog]

@ ASH1111, Dan Buster and amongst others...

It is my observation that most of the complaining and griping all come from you, the supposed pilots for Cathay. The wannabes are just here trying to find info on the interview process. But it is very unfortunate you guys have to try and discourage these wannabes from employment.

In case if you haven’t noticed, the profession you signed up with back then is no longer what it is today. You are now seem more as a glorified bus driver, a trained monkey in an automated flight deck. Yes, the compensation package may not be as good as it was when you became a pilot at Cathay, but that is the trend of this profession no matter where you go. Get over the fact that you will never see the salaries and treatment you may have received or expected back in “the day”.

GEEZUZ! :8

[brisdude]

Personally,

Call it "non - professional bitch network".

The "facts" presented here are more then laughable.

[brisdude]

Thank you.

[brisdude]

(Sorry for 3rd post) BUT as a bloke who grew up in HK during the 49er era, count your blessing and stop bitching about "so and so is making great money" yeah - Relative to a bloke trying to support kids.

For ***** sake - join it with a shred of integrity! It is a profession that pursues you into a career! Not a job.

Otherwise - get ****** if you think I will buy you a beer.

[flyinryan76]

Hello all....

I'm looking for a MR. FUSION who posted on here several months ago... if you're reading this please send me a PM.

OR

Is there anyone on here who has the simulator profile for the simulator eval? I would greatly appreciate it if someone could send me a PM with this info. Thanks!

[ASH1111]

This is not "back in the day", this was the package on offer up to what, 2010? And it is not a case of " well maybe its not great, but its better than...."
We ARE trying to discourage you! You are entering a dead end job, with no financial reward for that sacrifice, as you give Cathay the best years of your life accumulating experience that is unusable anywhere else.

Get a clue guys!

[soundbite]

And the sheer fact that your intention is to discourage us rather than inform us is enough for me to look elsewhere for information. Thanks for making your ulterior motives clear Ash.

It feels like we're pawns in a bigger game here. Perhaps if enough wannabees are discouraged from applying to Cathay, existing Cathay pilots can maintain their current quality of life.

I for one will certainly not halt my career progression so that a Cathay pilot can make a statement to management.

Inform us objectively, or get off the thread.

[ground to air]

Hi Guys,

I would really like to hear from anyone in Sydney who has a stage 1 interview in Brisbane on the 4th of November or round that time and who is interested in a study buddy, two heads/minds are better than one.

PLS PM me if you meet the above minimum requirements.

cheers.

[mugzy]

and the next GFC just around the corner

The 2008 GFC never ended, it's only progressing. We saw the U.S banking system collapse in 2008, now we are seeing a global debt crisis and a currency crisis, it won't just be major banks collapsing in the future but we will see countries default. It's game over.

[AndontcallmeShirley]

I am a current "iCadet".

What current CX pilots are saying here is very true.

At the moment my lifestyle is borderline satisfactory. It's certainly not great, or even "good". Eventually you will aspire for it to be more than satisfactory but under these terms it never will be. Please seriously consider exactly what I am saying because CX is a massive long-term commitment.

I'm not going to go into why its rubbish, for example the lack of job satisfaction as an SO, taking forever to upgrade, not being able to afford to do anything remotely interesting in Hong Kong, the fact your partner will almost certainly not want to live here etc etc. There are some positives, but the negatives outweight them ten-fold for me.

Looking back, I was incredibly naive to believe all the bull**** they told me about basings, upgrades etc. Its nothing like I thought it would be, or wanted it to be.

If you aspire to have any kind of lifestyle long-term then I strongly urge you to consider every other option before consider coming here.

[concord84]

If anybody is going for the selection on 15 November please PM me so we can exchange infos and tips.

To the one who keep saying to look somewhere else as conditions ar S**t I say that I'd rather be in the flight deck than ,as is the case, in the cargo hold humping bags, if you have 5000h and a type it is probably not a good choice but if you don't than there aint many options out there.
Just my point of view.
All the best to everyone.
C84

[Mad-Dog]

First off, Dan_buster, how do you mean "informing you guys objectively"? What are your tangible supporting evidence for what you are trying to say on here? I think up to this point, a lot of things presented by individuals such as you on here are subjective in nature.

Secondly, ASH, I think most people here can appreciate your help to some extent. However, the truth of the matter is, everyone should still do their own due diligence. I think anyone who comes to a board such as this to make a life changing decision and takes the advice of anyone without doing their own research (ie personally talk to HR etc) should be labeled as dumb.

Third, in case if anyone forgets, we are in probably one of the worst financial mess since the great depression! High unemployment in Europe and US, now they are saying Asia/China, your target markets, will be affected! I am sure there are tons of young men and women who are in need of a job right now. It doesn’t matter how bad a package is, it is better than being unemployed, living at home and bumming off of your parents at 25. Also, if you think the package given to current iCadets are so bad, how do you think the other guy, who took out $100,000 in student loans to learn how to fly from no hours to a CPL and is now flight instructing, making poverty level feels? Hey, not only do you live poorly, you have a mountain of debt to pay back… Great!! What about the other dude who is now flying commuters making $20-25K and “hot racking” with his buddies as they can only afford a one bedroom apt in San Francisco when three or four of them get together? How about the airlines that are gracious enough to let low time pilots sit in the right seat for a “measly” sum of up to $50,000 with no guaranteed job once they complete the 500 hour "program"? Is that better than the iCadet package???

Lastly, to all the pilots and iCadets of Cathay. If things are so bad there, if the management and pay is so bad, you do know where the door is right???

[SloppyJoe]

You need to read a post two above yours Mad-Dog. Most of the guys posting are on the old package, as am I. We stay here as the housing allowance allows us to do ok to good financially. If there was no housing almost every last expat based in HKG would quit, honestly. I know I would. Current icadets are here as they have not been for very long, just spent a year training for this job, believed everything they got told in the interview, are chasing the carrot and shiny jet still. The longest serving icadet I expect is about 2 years as an SO.

anyone who comes to a board such as this to make a life changing decision and takes the advice of anyone without doing their own research (ie personally talk to HR etc) should be labeled as dumb. What the guy posted two above you:

Looking back, I was incredibly naive to believe all the bull**** they told me about basings, upgrades etc. Its nothing like I thought it would be, or wanted it to be. You could be stuck in HKG with no life, no relationship as can't afford one, unable to enjoy life for 10 years. Seriously it could be 10 years before you can move on. 6-7 years as an SO and the rest to get enough time to get a job back home. I know local guys do ok but that is because HKG is their home.

Obviously what is best for you is what you should do but do not think that people on here are all about protecting their own package, they are not, it is about trying to let you guys know what you are getting into as HR and CX bend the truth. Recently guys have been told 18 month to upgrade, I am pushing 4 years and they are going to be changing the training system SOs do to make the HKCAD happy with the SO rating for longer than 5 years which is the legal limit of a P2X rating currently. Basings, people have been told they can get a base when they are an FO, Auckland is about a 12 year wait as an FO so you have to pass up your command to go there, Europe not much better. To get a London base as a Captain you had to join in the mid to late 80s.

Yeah have a chat with HR and base your decision on that.

When you come to HKG for an interview, if you get one, go down to the bar one evening and have a chat with some current CX guys, they will be happy to help as most are a descent bunch and see what they have to say.

[Mad-Dog]

So what does "Ok" to "good" mean? What is "good" or "ok" to you may not be to the person standing next to you. It seems with the package they are offering now, you can get by on your own, maybe not "well", but it beats being unemployed, living at home with your parents which by the way, is the case for 5 million Americans between ages 25 to 35 right now. What kind of life is that? I think right now, Cathay's icadet would good to them as it is a guaranteed job for six years (ironically that bond is also a guarantee you will likely have a job for next six years in these turbulent and unpredictable times)

Maybe I am looking at this with too much business sense (maybe because I am finance guy working for a well hated Wall St. I-bank), but what incentives does Cathay have right now to pay someone "the old package"? Is their pool of applicants drying up? Do they not have to worry about potentially a second financial crisis that is looming (this time, govt debt which is 100 times worse than Lehman). Doesn't Cathay have to make back the billions they lost during the 2008-2009 turmoil so they have a war chest that can sustain them when they lose billions again?

Your notion of not being able to enjoy life for next 10 years etc, with due respect, is it your own personal experience? How can you say someone else would go down that same road? What do you base it off of? Frankly that doesn't have any meanings to me as I control my own destiny and happiness as everyone else should.

By the way, so are now admitting you want to build hours and jump ship, was that your original plan at Cathay? If that was the case, nothing against you as that is your prerogative and how you want to control your life, but I am sure Cathy would have been thrilled to find that out back when they hired you. Maybe in a senese, they got screwed too?

So regarding HR “bending” the truth, you don't think other companies/industries no matter airline, banking, construction etc etc do that? Promises of bonuses, promotions etc that never happen? First, don’t expect anything not written into a contract will happen. This is very common with bonuses which people get screwed on or told they will become a manager "in two years" or whatever. Did you or other cadets make Cathay put into writing when you would expect to upgrade? Second, maybe Cathay had told you what they plan to do in future but their plans changed because of changes in the business environment? (Like company wants to give you bonus but they can’t because they lost money for a particular year). Bottom line, don’t expect something if it is not in writing.

FYI, I love the pay for training programs, how they advertise. “If you pay us $50K, and you finish the program “satisfactorily” after 500 hours, we “may” offer you a permanent position.” Ha! They will really hire the next sucker who is willing to pay $50K to fly in the right seat! Now that is “bending” the truth at its finest.

I think with working/flying for Cathay, you have to expect to be in Hong Kong for your whole career. CX is an airline based in a territory of the PRC and also with at least 29% owned by Air China. If you want to be based out of London, go apply with BA, want to be based in US, choose one of the US carrier. If you chose Cathay, expect to be in Hong Kong, simple as that. Why would you expect to be based in Europe or anywhere not in Asia when you work for an carrier based in Asia?

[etrang]

Every bit of "constructive" advice has been soundly rejected by starry eyed youngins. What more can one say than has already been said.

So....I guess.....enough said!

One definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

It feels like we're pawns in a bigger game here. Perhaps if enough wannabees are discouraged from applying to Cathay, existing Cathay pilots can maintain their current quality of life.

That is exactly what they are trying, and repeatedly failing, to do. Of course current Cathay pilots have a union and they could take some action themselves, but that might expose them to some risk, so they'd rather you sacrifice yourself to help them out.

I for one will certainly not halt my career progression so that a Cathay pilot can make a statement to management.

Inform us objectively, or get off the thread.

Good luck with that.

[soundbite]

Since the point of this thread is to determine financial viability of the current contract, I'd rather pay attention to a pilot with a banking background than a sarcastic cynic.

[SloppyJoe]

is the case for 5 million Americans between ages 25 to 35 right now. What kind of life is that?

You have to look at this specific industry as it requires lots of specific skills and training. There are jobs out there for pilots on A320 aircraft offering a tax free salary of over US$18,000 a month. There is a lack of qualified experienced pilots. CX could if they wanted offer a better package and attract quality experienced pilots but they chose not to as it is easier to pay a starry eyed wannabe well below market rates. They are not short of cash, they are making a fortune but finance guys like you have decided it best to get the cheapest guys possible. This is wrong, it removes jobs from people who have experience and will cause them huge problems further down the road. Many senior pilots are against this form of recruiting, cadets should be a part of it but in proportion. Expat cadets should be paid an expat package.


So what does "Ok" to "good" mean? What is "good" or "ok" to you may not be to the person standing next to you.

You judge yourself on those around you, at CX most people are on the same deal so you see how others are doing and those ahead of you and its comforting to know that you and your family will be ok. Same with friends in HKG, most are on better packages or similar as that is what it takes in my opinion (yes) for an expat with a family to be happy in HKG. Most icadets who have been here for a while are finding it hard.

Doesn't Cathay have to make back the billions they lost during the 2008-2009 turmoil so they have a war chest that can sustain them when they lose billions again?

No, they are an extremely well off company. They have already made as PROFIT far far more than they lost during 08-09. As a wall street guy am sure you can find this info.

By the way, so are now admitting you want to build hours and jump ship, was that your original plan at Cathay?

Absolutely not. I enjoy my job and the time off it gives me. My career with Cathay will provide a comfortable and enjoyable life for me, my wife and kids. If they decide to reduce the deal that I signed up for then absolutely as it will only get worse and it is not worth living in HKG on a sub standard contract. I would rather do the same job at home for the same money.

First, don’t expect anything not written into a contract will happen.

Secondly, with Cathay don't expect anything that IS written into your contract will happen.


I am not trying to put you off. If you have 0 to very little time flying it is without doubt one of the best ways to get into aviation, a pretty boring way but still on of the best. Training paid for, job at the end if you pass, progression into a widebody in 7ish years, faster than through the GA route. Good aircraft, usually good people you work with, professional atmosphere. There are many good points but please don't think you are getting a good deal once you have experience you are not and NEVER will when at CX unless they up the package once icadets start to leave with experience. But this as you say is not written down so can't count on it, expect to be in HKG, like you said, for your whole career on a very poor package for the job you are employed to do.

[OneBarWonder]

You can 'survive' as a single guy in HK on the current package but you can't support a family on it. Listen to the people on this forum who already live here.
Try looking up the cost of housing in HK for a 3 bedroom 1000sqft apartment in the cheaper areas of HK like Tung Chung or Disco Bay. This is the minimum you would want as a Westerner and see what you get.. The numbers don't add up.
All the iCadets I know are either actively looking for other jobs already or will leave as soon as their 6 years are up and they have marketable skills. The only ones who will stay are the ones who have family here or daddies who are Captains.
It's not good.

[VFE]

What is amusing is meeting all the icadet candidates at interview and everyone ignoring the big issue of pay, tax and living costs! On deeper inspection it usually means that the candidate already has a place in HK or has affluent parents who are already established in HK ergo living conditions not an issue. For us other lesser mortals it's a bit more grim...

Dan Buster et al, have all given the skinny from the inside but even the experienced guys, already in steady jet jobs at home and married with kids are tripping over themselves for a shot at the icadet scheme - it is rather bizarre if you ask me. Guys... have a word with yourselves, please!!

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that applying to CX is a cracking way of building interview experience! Just don't get carried away - that's my advice. ;)

VFE.

[FoxtrotCharlie7]

Hi there, good night to all!
What I have just read is that Cathay Pacific cadet program is not as easy and promising as it looks. I am interested as I am single, 25 years old, almost finishing a degree in Law in Spain. Here everything is crap. When you want a first time job they tell you: 1000 € a month (if possible), workshift 40 hour a week (eventhough those 40's go all they way up to at least, 10 to 20 hours more, UNPAID :suspect:) and of course, a looooong wait to get a better salary.
Then I find CP. Then I said: lets check at pprune. A-5, sunk ! :ugh: Last 3 pages of valuable information :D, though this info is really disappointing:uhoh:. 5 years to upgrade to FO ??? So, if I get the chance and taking a very big guess, I enter CP at 27, finish course at 29, fly SO for 5 years, so it takes me to 34-35 to be FO ??? :ugh: My god ! How about flying for another company then...?

Any piece of more detailed wisdom will be appreciated

EDIT: also, another question. When you are SO, what happens with flown hours? Do they count? If they do, do they count and are useable in case you would like to fly for another airline in the future?

Cheers

[Mad-Dog]

@ Dan_Buster
If you have read my original messages, my advice here is not to listen people such as yourself who speak negatively of the cadet program at CX, rather that one should do their own due diligence as everyone’s personal situation is different.


Coincidentally, isn’t one of the biggest gripes here how “bad” financially the new iCadet package is? Wouldn’t a finance person like myself be perfect to chime into this?

[Mad-Dog]

@sloppy joe:
There are several industries that require a lot of technical skills, and many that are much more complicated than piloting an aircraft that the salary (especially for entry level position) are significantly lower than what was offered a few years ago such as IT, Engineering. Keep in mind, there are still tons of people, a lot of recent college graduates out there who are unemployed. Pilots are no different, there are tons of licensed CPL and APL in the US (approx 125K CPL and 144K ATP (not including CPL) as provided by FAA) , the supply is great especially since there are still furloughs at major airlines and many qualified commuter pilots waiting for their shot at the majors. Additionally, flying is not what it was decades ago where a piloting requires significant experience and skill. With the current automation, piloting has becoming much easier and safer, hence why there are so many ab initio programs such as one at CX. Besides, for SO, isn’t their primary duties to monitor the system and radios, literally babysit the aircraft? I do not think you need much skill for that and you can almost pick any somewhat intelligent college grad to learn what the knobs and buttons on the MCP, FMC etc does. If you think CX is the only airline to look for no experience or inexperienced pilots, I can tell you several major airlines in Asia, Europe that would gladly take someone with little or no experience and pay “below market” rates, some you even have the honor of paying them! By the way, where did you see these jobs that pay $18K a month? This wouldn’t be airlines in China that require captains right? Please let me know where if not as I know several people who are A320 FO’s looking for jobs right now.
Just because a company which is flush with cash, does not mean they have to start being generous. Being fiscally responsible is most important with running any business as it is all about the bottomline. Business 101, increase revenue and cut expense (highest expenses generally come from salary, wages, “loaded costs” which is benefits etc). Wages should be adjusted via market rates like what most companies/industries are doing right now. If you set a low salary, qualified people are willing to take it, by all means, you get as many as you can, simple law of supply and demand. If the new wannabe’s don’t like the package offered to them, they can say “screw you” and walk the other way. Tell me, what is wrong with CX or any other company trying to save (cut) costs? By the way, there was a post not long ago on this thread, a guy applied to SQ and apparently the salary is lower than what CX is offering. You can say all you want, but the cost of living in Singapore is higher than in Hong Kong. I do not know if you see on the news in Hong Kong about this “Occupy Wall Street” movement. It is really about a bunch of people (actually a lot of them ex-hippies and losers) who are discontent about big corporations. If you follow the news here in US, you will see a lot of corporations are making money, most with record amounts of cash but no one is hiring. At least Cathay can say they are hiring. Besides, FYI, the CX loss for 2009 was approx $1.1 billion, albeit they did make back what was lost in 2010 and likely 2011 (results not avail yet), the industry is forecasting a pretty turbulent 2012 for the airlines. Let me ask you, would this be a good time to start paying more money or being fiscally irresponsible knowing 2012 is likely to be another bad year and further stagnation coming?
One of the things I keep hearing on here is how difficult it is to get by in Hong Kong on the current iCadet package. I think it can generally be agreed here that an SO in the first few years would make about HK$500,000/yr before any bonuses and taxes. However has anyone actually considered the fact that the GDP per capital in HK is approximately HK $250K/yr? Another words, an iCadet in Hong Kong is being paid twice the average person in HK. Before you start to compare to any other airlines etc, here in US, an entry level job for a pilot (after investing close to $100K in training) is a flight instructor making at best $20K or about half of the average a person makes in the US. Which airline can you name where someone with no time or “low time” makes more than the GDP per capita of the country the airline is based in?
Regarding the contract, CX has been keeping up with their end correct? If not, I would suggest that they be sued in court. I have done enough business in HK to know they have one of the best legal system in Asia (probably the world) as they follow the British common law system. Be glad you are not in half the countries in Asia where a contract has no meaning.
I like your last paragraph by the way, makes good sense.
Have a good weekend.

[Mad-Dog]

@OneBarWonder:
I think you said a key phrase in your post and that is “minimum you would want as a Westerner…”
In my post above, an iCadet package is around HK$500,000/yr before bonuses and taxes. This is twice the GDP per capita of HK$250K/yr. Another words, you are making twice what an average person in Hong Kong is expected to make.
With working and living overseas, one has to be prepared to embrace the culture and living standards of that country. If you go anywhere outside N America/Europe and expect to live as a westerner, you are going to pay through the nose. In reality, it is not the company’s problem one refuses to live the local standard as an expat. It is really difficult to say you cannot “survive” or “live” in HK on the current iCadet package as you are already being paid twice what an average person makes. The iCadet package is doable, the question is, are the wannabes prepared to live like they are a local, eat the street vendor foods and put aside their western expectation?

[boxerpilot]

As correctly pointed out, it is in fact true with the situation in SQ. To say the least, I would not be looking in here if SQ provided a fantastic package. In fact, over the years, the expat community has been dwindled to almost negligible with foreigners taking local terms to remain in the company.

SQ has since started major recruitment from India for cadets and that is the sign to come. As a comparison, A wide body Captain in SQ makes less than an SFO, not counting in bonuses and different tax rates. Cost of living is also high in Singapore and it definitely is a much much smaller place to live in. Just for a comparison, you will require to buy a Certificate of Entitlement just to own a car above 1600cc. At current rate, its approximately 60K USD without even the car price yet!

Not to go about a major comparison between the two, but I think even in Asia, major airlines are losing out to pay packages to LCC and Budget operations like TigerAirways and Jetstarasia in terms of pay packages. Command comes quicker because guys I know are flying 90-100hrs a month and have to be throttled back to not bust the 1000hr/yr restrictions in Singapore.

By all standards, the industry practice of paying great expat rates looks archaic and would definitely be revised as it is evident. I would definitely look at it in a long term perspective to join a company that you see yourself in for at least 20yrs and there is really no gripes with being rewarded only after 12-15yrs when loyalty is not is question. A trait so often missing these days.

[ASH1111]

Guys, just let 'em go. I have never seen such spirited defense for a dead end job.

And to Mr. Mad Dog, I am going to be very frank with you. We do get a bit personally offended at this whole "cadet" scheme for a few reasons that I dont expect you to undestand.

The Cathay Pacific we joined was not a place we went because it was the least ugly pig at the trough. Or because, hey, it beats throwing bags on the tarmac. We all worked our butts off to get here, building 1000's of hours as Captains in our own countries. We spent months preparing for what was industry known as the toughest job to get on the planet. Out of the 20 guys I interviewed with only 6 got hired, and they were all the cream.

Yes, we get offended as people are treating with flippancy what we worked so hard to obtain. We are seeing the decline of a once great airline before our eyes, and unfortunatly the icadet is the new face of that decline.

Cheers.

[Mad-Dog]

Mr. Ash,
I can understand you being offended with this iCadet thing but what I don’t think you, or anyone else who is a seasoned pilot here understands, is, the GOOD TIMES ARE OVER!

It sucks when you work years for a job and then get pissed on. I know! You know why? Because worked hard in school and went to a prestigious college, got a position with a large investment bank in Wall St. in late 1990s, made my first million before age 25, lost some in when the internet bubble burst, made a got few other seven figure compensation package in the mid 2000’s but you know the kicker is, all that bonus etc were in stocks that are worth less than a quarter of their value today!! What is even worse is now I go to work, you get branded the scum of the earth by this stupid “Occupy Wall Street” movement. How would you like it if you went to work every day, work 15+ hour days (averaging close to 100 hours a week), make well less than what you made before, not knowing if today would be your last day since Sept of 2008 and get spit on by a bunch of lazy punks in this baseless movement. Do you think you have it bad now????


I think you have to come to grips with the fact there are hundreds of millions of people from developing countries that are just as smart, if not smarter than us, have harder work ethics coming to this new global economy and they are willing to work for a fraction of what a western is paid. Now you tell me, why do you deserve to be put on a pedestal???

Good day!

[ChinaBeached]

What is even worse is now I go to work, you get branded the scum of the earth by this stupid “Occupy Wall Street” movement. How would you like it.....

Yes, yes, yes..... Upset when it affects your status and job satisfaction but you are so full of comment about professional airman defending the STANDARDS that promote and keep SAFETY as the HIGHEST priority, and not profit margins which the likes of you (it seems) prioritise as most important.

The good times are over....

What a naive and ignorant comment. "Good times"?? Since when is paying a competitive and well earned / deserved salary, as well as terms and conditions to be deemed "good times". So I suppose in your eyes a person without a job has the right to call those with the job they earned through hard work, a hell of a lot of sacrifice, dedication and education and getting paid accordingly as "spoilt" or existing under "good times" because to the wannabe all should feel as he/she does, ie self deserving? And if it takes lowering of the profession standards as well as remuneration to short-cut a path, that is OK?

But I will agree that in all too many airlines the "GOOD TIMES" (as you put it) of highly trained and experienced pilots is over.

The 'GOOD TIMES" of passenger safety is over as well.

.........And hence the tragedy here of a once great and revered airline that is nothing but "just another airline" racing to the bottom for what? GREED.

@ Dan_Buster....my advice here is not to listen people such as yourself who speak negatively of the cadet program at CX, rather that one should do their own due diligence as everyone’s personal situation is different.

Again, utter dribble and stupidity. So, do your due diligence, just don't listen to anyone with first hand experience, knowledge and information about the very job these kids are seeking. No wonder you are so concerned about your job on "Wall St" if your levels of due diligence is to preclude such sources. You are perfectly suited to the icadet program!!!!!!

why do you deserve to be put on a pedestal???

A pedestal? No. A fair, competitive salary, as well as terms and conditions reflective of that required to pilot a sophisticated jet transport..... And not if but WHEN things go wrong the likes of "Mad Dog" will be peeing his pants and screaming from the economy seats for the dear pilot to save his life. Oooops! That kid at the controls has ZERO experience outside of the CX umbrella whose simulator training went from 12 to 10 and now SIX sessions as the iCadet aircraft handling training prior to being released to line training, all to save money. His/her TOTAL experience of "tricky" aircraft situations has been inside an air-conditioned box with the 'PAUSE SIM" or "CRASH INHIBIT" function available to Capt Nigel Black (who sells his time and profession out for free on pretty ads promoting a company who seeks to lower recruitment standards, salaries and training levels all to line their own pockets and "profit", all the while his own salary is untouched and doing just fine!!!!). That kid who you rely to save your sorry tail is paid exactly what his skills are and worth - bugger all.

And you say CX needs to make the "billions" it lost during the GFC? "Billions" Maybe if you're referring to the Zimbabwean dollar. Otherwise, you show how little you really know. CX now offer salaries and packages approximately SIXTY PERCENT lower at a time of RECORD PROFITS. Morals? Integrity? Then again, you're a banker (apparently) so I assume through conductive reasoning that such terms are alien to you.

Bet you wish CX recruited, trained, paid & treated it's pilots better at a time when you or your own are on a CX flight when an iCadet SO is alone in a cockpit while the other pilot with 1000's of hours experience (& paid accordingly) is taking a leak. Then again, you don't care because you just saved $20 on a ticket and prefer to rely on "luck" in lieu of "SAFETY".
(That $20 you think you "saved" actually made the airline probably 10 times that. And that makes the travelling public who believe as you do fools).

The HK legal system? Again, you show your ignorance. Do some reading on the CX - AOA relationship before mouthing off on labour laws that you know nothing of. A little book - best seller - was written not long ago highlighting the past 15+ years of CX's relationship with its employees, mainly pilots. Black & white contracts ignored, court case taken and won, then overturned by the highest courts without any need of precedent or justification..... And that same case is going on today 10+ years on.

And here you are mouthing off about "due diligence" regarding people getting in to conversations or situations without doing it!!! (All be it to ignore those with factual comments, experience and knowledge that may not suit the rose colour all too many seek). If you are a "banker", or any profession for that matter, then it is no difficult brain teaser to discover why you lost so much money and worry for your own job! Hell! Who would invest with you if this is your level of knowledge and comprehension????!!!

Hope those "Wall Street" protesters don't make you spill your laté. Those protester can label scum as they please. Most pilots (or reasonable humans) label scum as those who believe the shear and shameless greedy chase for more, more and more money can be at the expense of safety, standards and morals; especially at a time of record profits and self anointed massive salary bonuses. Where you lie on that issue is your own conscience, but your opinions thus far speak for themselves.

[SloppyJoe]

Mad-Dog

You really need to do more research before you start justifying the actions of the company we work for to us.

Regarding the contract, CX has been keeping up with their end correct? If not, I would suggest that they be sued in court. I have done enough business in HK to know they have one of the best legal system in Asia (probably the world) as they follow the British common law system. Be glad you are not in half the countries in Asia where a contract has no meaning.

This has been done many many time, we have won many many times, it has been overturned many many times. The HKG legal system is a joke when it comes to workers taking on companies. Blatant breaches of contract on multiple occasions to multiple people worth multi million dollar amounts.

[Pass your message]

Can anyone please tell me the oldest person recruited under the CX scheme to date?

[ground to air]

Hi Guys,

The last few pages have turned into abit of a slaying match, threat is veering alittle off track but for the rest of you, I would really like to hear from anyone in Sydney who has a stage 1 interview in Brisbane on the 4th of November or round that time and who is interested in a study buddy, two heads/minds are better than one.

PLS PM me if you meet the above requirements.

cheers.

[theboat]

Guys,

I have been doing a bit of research and found this document:

http://advertising.scmp.com/recruiter/downloads/cp_salary_guide_hk_2010.pdf

Cathay say $45000 a month for an SO, which looking at this seems okay.

The Boat.

[404 Titan]

theboat

How many times have we got to tell people this? That is only one side of the equation. You also need to look at a comparison of the cost of living. This seems to be something most wannabes seem to be ignoring unfortunately. For the record I have flown with two iCads in the last month, both of whom are looking at leaving because of the cost of living in Hong Kong.

[Cpt. Underpants]

boat, I applaud you for at least doing a little research.

What is missing from the SCMP table is a significant issue - housing. I guess it depends on what you're used to, but for the vast majority of expats, living with mum and dad doesn't do it, nor is an option here either.

I was in Causeway Bay yesterday (not a flash neighborhood by any measure) and saw several units advertised for sale/rent at $2,000,000 to $2,400,000 range or rental at $10,000 per month.

I suppose it's doable on the CX "allowance" but it's pretty abysmal, by any measure. One room, no stove, pull chain toilet, that sort of thing.

In any other country, the buildings would be in a ghetto, or near condemned status.

I've also flown with a few iCadets these past months, and to a man, they're not optimistic nor inspired for the future - the bleak reality of an existence not a life, is looming.

Think twice.

[AndontcallmeShirley]

Cpt. Underpants-

You've hit the nail on the head:

the bleak reality of an existence not a life, is looming.

Sincerely,

One of the many disillusioned iCadets.

[Blake85]

I just finished reading this whole thread and I must say I am very disappointed :(
- I can't believe that there are people who are applying for this job not knowing what PPL is. I did a research on it when I was 12 y old knowing already what I wanted to do. FLY. Is it possible you want to do this as a career not knowing basic??? It tells me u never wanted this, and the only thing making you to consider this job was Top Gun or Catch me if you can. So sad!!!
- On the other hand, these senior captains from Cathay. Guys let us bring our own decisions. You are not aware of our current situations. Everybody see this job from their own perspective and ours are not even similar.
I am coming from the flying family and nobody was as negative as you on this thread. We have so many friends in CX and they were very honest about the negative side of this job offer, but at the same time they pointed out good parts of it.
At the moment I am flying to doggiest places in the world in company with not such a good safety record for less money that I will be left after paying accommodation in Hong Kong.
On other side I got an offer to work for a big, stable and safe airline as CX being, how you say, your "bitch" for a few years. big deal!!! Done much worst!!!! :}
The worst case scenario, I do 5y and bugger off if everything is so bad as you r saying!!!!
I know everything is Financial bull****!!!! And it's very hard to keep benefits for your senior crew when company is trying to cut money wherever possible, starting with the SO program.
But please let us be and stop being so negative while on your 3 days layovers, by yourself, bored, frustrated and too old to pick up one of the cabin crew members.
Your bitching on this page will not stop SO program and this way you will just get less and less experienced people and get stuck with these I wrote about first!!!

To everybody else, GOOD LUCK!!!!
Hong Kong is fantastic, but check it first, you have to see are you able to live there before you except this job. :ok:

[theboat]

This may be only one side of the equation, but when compared to other professional salaries it appears to be a reasonably balanced equation!
Obviously the cost of living is higher than one might like, but that does not negate the fact that the starting salary (and if you look at other professions in the link you will notice that to reach this salary takes some years) is competitive.
I am not arguing for a second that the cadet programme is the deal of the century, but it is better than having no job. That is a fact.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Fact: your take home won't take you home.

The housing portion of your after tax salary is so disproportionately large (if you choose to live in a spot where browbeaten underperforming high school students aren't flinging themselves off rooftops) that you WILL be on subsistence wages.

Factor in a belligerent, uncaring management who cannot understand the value of motivated, happy employees, and it's not worth it.

Come for the SNJ factor if you must, but there ARE many better options out there.

[theboat]

There may be better jobs out there, but that does not make this a bad job!!! Also, for a low houred inexperienced pilot I actually doubt there are many better jobs. Take BA Citiflyer's Trainee Entry Pilot scheme which is currently open. £22000 a year and you have to live within 90 minutes of London City airport. Oh, and you need a fATPL just to apply.
I can't comment on belligerent uncaring management as I have never worked at Cathay, but this appears to be becoming pretty common across the industry. The two main recruiters in the UK of low hour pilots? Ryanair and Easyjet. At least at Cathay you work for Cathay....

[Cpt. Underpants]

...so you're happy to be on a par with a (locally born and raised) bank manager, who earns about $43000 a month?

A local manager who whiles away the hours in the Tai Kok Tsui branch of DBS, takes lunch breaks from 12:30 till 2, and goes home to his 500 sq ft flat to eat (local) fish or chicken and a bowl of rice...night after interminable night?

Can't afford anything but local TV (TVA and TVB), and buses to and from work, cheek to jowl with the other 90 percentile here?

You truly believe it's "reasonable" to be paid like him?

The fact that a mistake YOU make may cost millions of dollars and possibly many lives, isn't a factor in your reckoning? Your licence (and livelihood) being on the line semi-annually isn't a factor? The endless hours staring into the dark in the wee hours on your third trans polar flight that month, doesn't reckon with you? The ****e hotels and sub standard "food" on board doesn't bother you a bit? The little bump on your forehead that itches after a few years here, isn't an issue?

I believe your reasoning is seriously flawed.

Cathay (mis) management will LOVE you. Come on down. In fact, you can pay US to fly. The jets are BIG, SHINY and NEW...

One more thing: At least at Cathay you work for Cathay....

WRONG. VETA or USAB, or VETA Canada, or VETA Australia, NZ, UK...

[theboat]

So let's get this straight. A 20 year old Cadet programme graduate can earn the same as a bank manager (local or not)? That seems pretty reasonable to me seeing as the 20 year old has absolutely zero experience in the industry!!! Is this the same 20 year old who on promotion to FO will have his pay almost double?
I believe your reasoning to be seriously flawed. Continually on this thread it is highlighted how little responsibility an SO has, yet when it suits the argument the SO can make mistakes that cost millions of dollars? Seems like flawed logic to me.
For the record I will not be coming on down to pay you to fly, as I am quite happy where I am. I am simply fed up with aspiring Cathay cadets being fed tired old rhetoric when all they are asking for is advice.
The fact is that the Cathay cadet programme is a good option for some people. Maybe not for you, and maybe not for me. However there are those out there who want to be pilots and this is one of the better ways to become one at present. It's not perfect, but can you tell me where is? What is the option for these young "wannabes"? Retain the moral high ground by not "paying to fly" or accepting lower terms and conditions than you are used to? Well if they do I hope that McDonalds have a branch on said high ground.
Also, for the record, I think it's quite arrogant to assume that a Cathay SO is worth more per month than a local bank manager.

[flyboy_nz]

I am interested in applying for the SO program. However, I would come under the Transition training (I have 1650TT and about to finish my ATPLs). I believe the time required to train would be shorter. But I have also been told that I would not receive any pay during the training. Can someone confirm this? How long does the training go for? And does Cathay provide accommodation in Adelaide during the course?

Now, I have looked at accommodation prices in HK on various property websites and on expatforum.com. I have a friend who's in HK as a Cathay SO who is paying about 20k HKD per month for a room in a flat. Factor in other living expenses which would cost another $15-20k (Cost of Living (http://www.numbeo.com)). On a salary of 45k, this seems affordable. Now, is the 45k the base salary and the SOs get flying allowance on top?

So far, how accurate am I with my estimates? The reason I am asking these questions is that I am interested in the Cathay cadet program, but I am reading a lot of negative stories about it (My SO friend is very happy, he has just started his training).

I have been offered another job which would pay for accommodation and food expenses but I would end up flying SE turbo-props for another two years whereas with Cathay, I am flying for Cathay!

It is a hard decision as I have always dreamt working for Cathay. I do not wish to give up on Cathay just because times are tough and Cathay are taking measures of cost cutting. If they are doing this for sake of making more profit and I decide not to apply, who then misses out? I end up flying turbo-props while I watch others fly for Cathay. Grass is always greener on the other side?

[ChinaBeached]

So many holes in those arguments kids.....

Oh, and you need a fATPL just to apply.

Yeah - that way the "experienced" and "qualified" pilots were pre-screened. That's how it used to be but as been said so often if you pay bananas you will attract monkeys.

I am not arguing for a second that the cadet programme is the deal of the century, but it is better than having no job. That is a fact.

No. Having the slightest fibre of INTEGRITY is better than selling out yourself, your industry and your (hopeful) colleagues.

I am simply fed up with aspiring Cathay cadets being fed tired old rhetoric when all they are asking for is advice.

No again, kid. What you are sick of is reading or asking advice and just not liking what you are told. If you seek advice then be prepared for the good and the bad. In your case - and like many before you - you choose to only want the rose coloured version. 95% of those doing the job you & other seek, for the airline you and others want to work for give you the cold FACTS, but your naivety and ignorance chooses to disregard or discredit that same advice that was asked for.

I think it's quite arrogant to assume that a Cathay SO is worth more per month than a local bank manager.

You would. Before the iCadet program pilots had "skills", "experience" and "credentials". Most even had "integrity". With those attributes came "responsibility" that the travelling public entrusted them with to, when the proverbial does hit the fan, save their life. And at the very least get them from A to B in an extremely demanding environment safely. For this suitably qualified pilots were paid accordingly. Now such pilots are just not wanted by CX because they refuse the insult that is the present package (refer the many pilots who turned down the offer from the DESO hold pool). Bankers wager ON risk for different calculated levels for profit. Pilots and airlines (used to) do all they can to remove risk wherever possible. Bankers get paid when their GAMBLE comes off. 300+ people die when an airline's GAMBLE at placing an inexperienced kid in a seat and the LUCK of the AP and systems fails: the risk did not come off.

...."bitch" for a few years. big deal!!! Done much worst!!!!

I believe the name is "Gimp". Whoring yourself is nothing to be proud of, then again you seem to defend it. Again, welcome to the new breed of CX applicant when the bar is lowered so pathetically low.

So, just call a spade a spade. Most iCadets are their not for their skills, knowledge, credentials and definitely not their experience, but because they are the CHEAPEST OPTION. Plain and simple. Sorry if that opinion (call it advice if you want) does not agree with your ego that needs a cheap and nasty short cut into a job that is detrimental to the aviation industry as a hole.

Flyboy is your perfect example. Whilst he'll get all offended, he's asked the same damn questions that have been posted a few hundred times on this and the other threads:- to which very in depth answers have been given. There lies your professionalism standards and true determination to research facts.....

I can't log into update my application!!! What do I do?? (To do what? Inform CX you just finished "Biggles Goes to the Zoo"?)

How much does it cost to rent a flat in HK??

How long will I be an SO and till I'm a / FO / Capt????

Is Cathay hiring now??

Can anyone tell me about the Cathay cadet program?

hey ewes i dust red dis stuff n wanna be like...whatever n stuff coz its reel cool n stuff dont be hat'in on me n stuff coz i wanna fly n stuff wheres hongkong n do they speek good inglish coz im gonna be a pilot like da tv shows...

Fly_boy....take the turbo prop job. OWN your hours. OWN your future. You'll be a better pilot and a better person for it. You'll earn less money in the short term but in the long term and bigger picture you will
a) maintain your integrity
b) be a better pilot
c) earn more money (long term) and retire better than an iCadet because your first 4-6 years of flying accrues HOURS. An iCadet accrues NONE. The SO P2X rating is not recognised outside of the HK CAD / CX umbrella. You don't like CX after 4-6 years as SO? Where are you going to go with what hours? You haven't even the hours or experience for light twin job meat-bombing somewhere, let alone a C210 charter job: because you have NO HOURS.
d) be in the left seat of a jet sooner
e) your colleagues will respect you.

[theboat]

You're entitled to your opinion ChinaBeached, even if it's totally wrong!

[Jim-J]

(To do what? Inform CX you just finished "Biggles Goes to the Zoo"?)

CLASSIC!!

[brisdude]

As a former "Cathay Kid" and now working for said airline - his facts are valid.

If people aren't willing to look at the basics of a long term career without checking out:

- Rental prices and areas

- Cost of living and tax laws

- Accounting your family, or future family, into the equation (schools, transport etc)

- Recreation, personal interests etc

Then there is a severe lacking in maturity and responsibility that does not reflect well.

All the information is more then easily available. If someone is too lazy or incapable to research moving to Hong Kong then how are they the sort of person that belongs on the flight deck of an airliner?

Current CX crew are not discouraging people due to a perceived mentality "we're in a club that no one else is allowed in". Garbage, if people choose to be ignorant of the facts of our industry then they are not a credit to our profession.

And I think I know what I am talking about better then someone chasing a nice uniform and a big jet they can facebook their friends about.

End rant.

[Cpt. Underpants]

So, boat - let me get this straight...

You're not an airline pilot.

You don't live in Hong Kong.

You don't work for CX.

You're not an "iCadet".

And you tell me I've got it all wrong?

I play a decent game of golf - but what you're doing is the equivalent of me shouting advice to Tiger Woods from the gallery during the Open.

The only thing you and I have in common is having read the AP3456.

I'm not surprised you're confused about responsibility and TEM.

[CX-A330]

ok i am have ideas/thought that maybe us wannabes/currence iCadets can consider to make life is better if/when we are accepted into cpp.

1. maybe 3 (or more?) icads to share an apartment, thats $30k "allowance money" to use but maybe for a small apartment. lifestyle will not be best but you can at least get by okay financially. share/reduce groceries and living expense.

2. i have not looked too much into it but if you are extreme you can considered using CX cpp to gain a HKCPL and deliberate fail line check to get fired and go back to home country and convert to local CPL etc etc

3. if u are really young and dont mind doing hard at CX for 10-12 years you can maybe have enough time to transfer to other airlines.

Not all of us have a planned to stayat CX forever. I am have my stage 2 next month fingers crossed i am make it through to flight grading. I am young with ulterior motive CX is means to an end so all this bad stuff i am willling to put up for a decade and then i am transfer. Simple if CX play with employees, then i will also play with CX... i will not plan to save as much fuel either.

[VFE]

CX-A330,

Whilst I understand your gameplan totally, I do not hold out much hope for it's success! You see, the guys interviewing at CX will have far more experience of interviewing than you have of being interviewed and as such will easily suss out your ulterior motives. You may think you are smart, and you probably are a bright cookie alright, but it's like someone who enjoys the occasional jog around their local block announcing to the world that they intend to take on Usian Bolt! They will simply pose a couple of questions at the start and then pose a couple more at counterpoint towards the end which will easily expose any contradictions inherent in your story. It is a sport to the guys in recruitment and you are just what they are looking for!

Good luck but don't expect to get past stage 2 mate. As someone already suggested - there is no point playing with CX as you will always lose. Their eyes are on you the entire time you are with them in HK and in particular at CX City... enjoy having big brother watching you as you attempt to live out your lie!! ;)

VFE.

[Battle Star Galatica]

So does anyone know if there is an intake soon from cathay?

[Battle Star Galatica]

Though an upper age limit is not mentioned in the web site, Have anyone heard of anything on this?

[dreamjob]

Wow, CX330's english has improved! :D

[flyboy_nz]

Flyboy is your perfect example. Whilst he'll get all offended, he's asked the same damn questions that have been posted a few hundred times on this and the other threads:- to which very in depth answers have been given. There lies your professionalism standards and true determination to research facts.....

None taken. Although, it seems you haven't read my post or just breezed through it and arrived to the conclusion that here comes another starry eyed dreamer. I have done my own research and was hoping someone could confirm the figures. I have used external sources to calculate the costs. The previous posts mostly talk about the high prices in rent (renting the entire flat is expensive so probably the not the best idea). So, from what it seems, on the 45k salary, it is manageable. I have budgeted for 500HKD a day on food and travelling, excluding rent. The arguments in the previous posts have been that the salary is not enough for icadets due to the living costs in HK. So, what am I missing in my calculations?

My second query is; do the cadets get paid who are in the transition pool during training? What about the ones who are in Adelaide for 30 weeks? Is accommodation provided in Adelaide? The previous posts say that FTA in Adelaide provide food and accommodation and CX give the cadets $100 per week for allowance. This was in a 2009 post. Is it still the same?

I realise I won't be logging any or minimal hours as a SO. But my plan is to join CX and end up retiring with them. So there is no question of leaving.

[ChinaBeached]

CX-A330, Battle Star and fly_boy:

I rest my case!

Brisdude is your perfect example of a guy who seems to have the balls to tell it how it is, from a point of view of actually doing it (the reason I wrote "MOST" iCadets and not all). But, the rose-coloured glass wearers will disregard it of course.

fly_boy: EVERY question you have asked has been answered in COMPLETE depth so. Even still, you seem to seek the information from a RUMOUR NETWORK!!! From your questions you haven't even bothered to telephone CX for the precise answers and get the FACTS! And how would I know?? Because did the exact same thing to get the REAL FACTS and didn't rely on hear-say, opinion and least of all a rumour network. What are you missing in your calculations (again, ALL been written before) is the LONG TERM affects of potential wife, kids, single income supporting a new family), unforeseen circumstances, savings to work towards the 30% deposit required for a place to buy, what if you NEED to leave CX and HK within 5-10 years, retirement.... You WILL NOT retire comfortably. All precise facts and precise figures have been done on this thread and others many, many times. Your housing allowance is not even factored to CPI so that $10k is worth less and less every year. By the time you get that illustrious $36k it'll be worth the same but probably less than the original $10k you received. You have done little to no research but for "my friend told me" and asking the tiresome same questions that have been repeated so many, many times on a rumour network that will affect the rest of your life.

boat:
I'm just plain "wrong"? And on what do you base this argument? The "Sticks and stones" principle or the "nah nah nah-nah nah" principle??

What? It is OK and shows integrity to undermine the industry?
It is smart to ignore FACTS, figures and opinions of those with direct knowledge & experience of HK & CX, the job, lifestyle and future? Of those with international (widebody) airline experience?
The fact that little things like study for a (f)ATPL is viewed as too difficult for you to be bothered to do in order to interview for a job?
The fact that there is no way the likes of you & most other iCadets would not be in any position to even hope to interview for CX had the standards not been lowered so very, very much?

[boxerpilot]

Just to check if any ex military pilots are on this site having gone through the 12 week course.

Thanks and regards