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BA pilots vote to strike

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BA pilots vote to strike

Old 13th Sep 2019, 20:15
  #301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
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Originally Posted by DCS17 View Post
Add another 100% supportive SLF here.

Looking in from the outside, all I see is an incompetent, greedy and bullying management, who have no respect for the people who are mission critical to their business.
Airlines world wide, with a few notable exceptions apply a Business School derived understanding of the company: Spread sheet driven they are completely disconnected from the operational components of ANY business let alone something as dynamic as an airline. Backed with teams of HR/IR they "run" business.

All over the world, these leeches derive salaries and add substantially to the cost structures and value add ZERO, although they see themselves as vital, for the drive down labor unit cost.
With strategic assets (like pilots) eventually something gives.

The administrative tail has wagged the airline dog for a few decades now.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 05:05
  #302 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 33
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Just a heads up to the BA guys and gals:

Until the strike is resolved, BALPA are allowed to jumpseat on mainline (not express) United flights both domestic and international (cabin seats only).

Last edited by g-code; 14th Sep 2019 at 05:27.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 06:46
  #303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
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Originally Posted by JPJP View Post



Verbose, ill informed gibberish. I do hope you’ll forgive me for not quoting your entire essay.

The B.A. pilots are on the right path, at the right time.


I suggest that you actually read my 'essay' and you might find that it was management that I was criticising:
... so maybe that 'collateral damage' is a bigger damage than BA management perceive?

I am not too sure that this will help other Pilots in the industry in general: If BA management make it an unattractive place to work then Pilots will not be so keen to move there which will mean that other airlines will not have the same worry regarding Pilots moving on, with the effect that that has on Ts&Cs.
'Bold' added to help you.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 08:36
  #304 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Posts: 137
BA Management has shown repeatedly they will not be negotiating. They would rather lose hundreds of millions in revenue than give in. They will play nasty, threaten you, spread lies in the media rather than do a deal.

It is not logical behaviour. That is simply because it is not their money they are playing with, it is shareholders. They are slowly putting Plan B in motion that will break BALPA forever, give them time they will win.

Therefore the only thing that will stop them is the shareholders, because it IS their money being lost.

The strike needs to be decisive, and force shareholders to put pressure on management. That is the only thing they will listen to.

If BALPA announce 6 months of strikes they will fold immediately before any legal action is brought. Not because of management, because of the shareholders protecting their investment.

The terms are:
15% over 3 years.
Public Apology from BA.
Cruz resignation.
Reinstatement of Benefits.
No disciplinary action against strikers.

Until then BA is grounded.

This will resolve the strike within days.

If you want to play fair and nice with Waterside, they will happily drag this out until Plan B is ready and they hold all the power over you. Scare the shareholders and you instantly win.

You have just grounded the airline. It is you that has the power.

Use it or lose it.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 11:02
  #305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Originally Posted by arem View Post
Seems to me that having cancelled all the flights on the 27th - then all the pilots should report for work on that day and ask where is my ‘plane. Just don’t tell management beforehand
Thats would be hilarious.

Wouldn’t be able to stop your pay then.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 12:17
  #306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Top of the World
Posts: 137
Just self-certify for 2 days each week. Announce a month of strikes at short notice with £billion lost revenue.

They cannot fire you all, it’d destroy the business and the shareholders wouldn’t allow it.

The longer Balpa drag this out, and the more notice they give, the less chance you have.

Stop trying to be gentlemen. Stop trying to be logical. You need to speak their language.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 13:25
  #307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Agree. They (BA) aren’t interested in negotiating seriously....yet.
The ‘sleeping tiger’ has woken. I bet the management never would have thought over 90% wouldn’t show. I think it’ll be close to 100% on the 27th if a deal isn’t done.
The IAG/BA management will continue down this path of more sanctions etc until the shareholders/investors say enough is enough.
I think BALPA should ramp up the pressure and increase the number of days for the next round of possible strikes. I applaud all those that went out, especially the first wave of guys and gals on the 9th. There is no turning back now. You must stand together.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 17:51
  #308 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
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BA management have grossly underestimated how united the union is at the moment - so much so that members from countless unions across the world are now offering up their own concessions to help BA pilots commute to work after BA removed even that. I’ve seen offers from UK based LH operators, UK based SH operators and US based carriers.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 18:57
  #309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Time for Cruz to go. He took over, or was given an airline to run, which was in good shape hence the 2b profit, no thanks to him. In his brief time he has:
1. reduced to share price to near an all time low.
2. Managed to precipitate the first pilot strike in the airlines “ 100 year “ history with the most incredible solidarity.
3. Has dumbed down the short haul product.
4 Picked up a huge fine, 183 m, for IT incompetence, the biggest penalty ever imposed by the ICO.
5. Managed to precipitate trainers and even managers to resign.
Now, compare that with the superb business performance of the late Sir Colin Marshall, who had the onerous task of vastly reducing staff numbers to get BA into shape, which he and Lord King certainly did. That said, Sir Colin managed to retain the respect of virtually all employees, and I have never heard of any unpleasantness levelled against him.

Its a long time since I was a BA pilot but I am an IAG shareholder, hoping for a nice gain when Cruz leaves as happened when Ayling left.

Time for change.





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Old 14th Sep 2019, 20:36
  #310 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: on a beach
Age: 63
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Originally Posted by Xulu View Post
BA Management has shown repeatedly they will not be negotiating. They would rather lose hundreds of millions in revenue than give in. They will play nasty, threaten you, spread lies in the media rather than do a deal.

It is not logical behaviour. That is simply because it is not their money they are playing with, it is shareholders. They are slowly putting Plan B in motion that will break BALPA forever, give them time they will win.

Therefore the only thing that will stop them is the shareholders, because it IS their money being lost.

The strike needs to be decisive, and force shareholders to put pressure on management. That is the only thing they will listen to.

If BALPA announce 6 months of strikes they will fold immediately before any legal action is brought. Not because of management, because of the shareholders protecting their investment.

The terms are:
15% over 3 years.
Public Apology from BA.
Cruz resignation.
Reinstatement of Benefits.
No disciplinary action against strikers.

Until then BA is grounded.

This will resolve the strike within days.

If you want to play fair and nice with Waterside, they will happily drag this out until Plan B is ready and they hold all the power over you. Scare the shareholders and you instantly win.

You have just grounded the airline. It is you that has the power.

Use it or lose it.
This is way to go!
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 20:44
  #311 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
Time for Cruz to go. He took over, or was given an airline to run, which was in good shape hence the 2b profit, no thanks to him. In his brief time he has:
1. reduced to share price to near an all time low.
2. Managed to precipitate the first pilot strike in the airlines “ 100 year “ history with the most incredible solidarity.
3. Has dumbed down the short haul product.
4 Picked up a huge fine, 183 m, for IT incompetence, the biggest penalty ever imposed by the ICO.
5. Managed to precipitate trainers and even managers to resign.
Now, compare that with the superb business performance of the late Sir Colin Marshall, who had the onerous task of vastly reducing staff numbers to get BA into shape, which he and Lord King certainly did. That said, Sir Colin managed to retain the respect of virtually all employees, and I have never heard of any unpleasantness levelled against him.

Its a long time since I was a BA pilot but I am an IAG shareholder, hoping for a nice gain when Cruz leaves as happened when Ayling left.

Time for change.
If he hasn’t already been given his notice he must surely know he’s off. The problem is that IAG would be foolish to announce his dismissal during an industrial dispute - particularly one where the employees have a significant lead - and it falls to the doomed Sñr Cruz to negotiate a deal in a scenario where he finds himself totally out of his depth.

This will drag on because IAG don’t like losing face and they are well and truly cornered. BA are taking it out on pilots but we are a very united community and we will prevail against their predictable, unlawful, unsafe, and ineffective tactics. Trying to wear pilots down with pay penalties, short-notice roster changes, and and reduced crew compliments on long-haul only reduces safety for customers. It does not dent our will at all. Proper managers could have put this to bed in days.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 20:46
  #312 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,413
A lesson from recent history in Australia

Originally Posted by Xulu View Post
BA Management has shown repeatedly they will not be negotiating. They would rather lose hundreds of millions in revenue than give in. They will play nasty, threaten you, spread lies in the media rather than do a deal.

It is not logical behaviour. That is simply because it is not their money they are playing with, it is shareholders. They are slowly putting Plan B in motion that will break BALPA forever, give them time they will win.

Therefore the only thing that will stop them is the shareholders, because it IS their money being lost.

The strike needs to be decisive, and force shareholders to put pressure on management. That is the only thing they will listen to.

If BALPA announce 6 months of strikes they will fold immediately before any legal action is brought. Not because of management, because of the shareholders protecting their investment.

The terms are:
15% over 3 years.
Public Apology from BA.
Cruz resignation.
Reinstatement of Benefits.
No disciplinary action against strikers.

Until then BA is grounded.

This will resolve the strike within days.

If you want to play fair and nice with Waterside, they will happily drag this out until Plan B is ready and they hold all the power over you. Scare the shareholders and you instantly win.

You have just grounded the airline. It is you that has the power.

Use it or lose it.

On 29 October 2011, seemingly all by himself Qantas CEO Alan Joyce grounded Qantas stranding over 80,000 passengers after a board meeting on the Saturday morning.
Hand on heart he swore that it was spur of the moment decision, no advance positioning and planning; pure theatre of course it was entirely premeditated.

Rushing to intervention by the Workplace "Fair Work" Commission the pilot union missed THE Opportunity to break Joyce.

The centre piece of the justification for the immediate grounding by Qantas to the Australian regulator was "safety" Pilots would be so distressed by the "lockout" that they needed to be immediately grounded.

Had the pilot union instructed members to take time and de-stress as argued by management, a week of Operating Revenue Loss by Qantas would have sealed Joyce's fate.


Qantas IR correctly surmised the psychological impact would see pilots break ranks and rush back. The gamble worked.


Airlines cannot survive Operating Revenue loss, their expense base is very large and difficult to reduce.

The advantage pilots have at BA, is that management had clearly indicated this is a gunfight, unlike those in the antipodes arm yourselves accordingly.









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Old 15th Sep 2019, 06:24
  #313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Top of the World
Posts: 137
Yup. It wouldn’t be safe to work under this stress. You’re risking your passengers safety and your jobs.

Its really that simple.

Write an open letter to shareholders, apologising for the £7billion loss from your 6 months of contractual sickness.

It’d be over in days and you can get on with your lives, whilst teaching managers a lesson in who is important and who is disposable.

Hoping Balpa can muster the necessary.
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Old 15th Sep 2019, 07:08
  #314 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 370
Originally Posted by Xulu View Post
BA Management has shown repeatedly they will not be negotiating. They would rather lose hundreds of millions in revenue than give in. They will play nasty, threaten you, spread lies in the media rather than do a deal.

It is not logical behaviour. That is simply because it is not their money they are playing with, it is shareholders. They are slowly putting Plan B in motion that will break BALPA forever, give them time they will win.

Therefore the only thing that will stop them is the shareholders, because it IS their money being lost.

The strike needs to be decisive, and force shareholders to put pressure on management. That is the only thing they will listen to.

If BALPA announce 6 months of strikes they will fold immediately before any legal action is brought. Not because of management, because of the shareholders protecting their investment.

The terms are:
15% over 3 years.
Public Apology from BA.
Cruz resignation.
Reinstatement of Benefits.
No disciplinary action against strikers.

Until then BA is grounded.

This will resolve the strike within days.

If you want to play fair and nice with Waterside, they will happily drag this out until Plan B is ready and they hold all the power over you. Scare the shareholders and you instantly win.

You have just grounded the airline. It is you that has the power.

Use it or lose it.
BA management would be ecstatic at that sort of deal. It’s probably far less than they’re planning on.

Some recent history

• In 2016 Delta pilots voted in a 18% immediate pay raise and a 3% & 4% raise for the next 3 years. Including backpack and retirement. 30 % over 4 years. In 2012 they’d agreed to large raises as well.

• Both years priorto both contracts they’d voted down a paltry pay rise.

United management then matched the Delta deal.

• In 2014 Southwest pilots voted in a 14% immediate pay raise and 3% raise for the next 3 years. Including raises in retirement and full back pay. The year before they voted down a paltry pay offer.

Walsh and Cruz understand these numbers. And how low their costs are comparatively. Delta and United are direct competitors. All three airlines pay more than BA. in every respect. They are also firing on all cylinders - Unlike BA; who have been a management disaster for years.

The only thing holding back BA as an airline, is their management. Hopefully the shareholders see the problem.

Last edited by JPJP; 15th Sep 2019 at 07:45.
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Old 15th Sep 2019, 08:00
  #315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: St. John's Wood
Posts: 286
Originally Posted by Xulu View Post
Cruz resignation.
Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
Time for Cruz to go.
Don't forget who put Cruz in the BA CEO chair - it was IAG. And the man at the top of the IAG pyramid is Walsh. Even if Cruz disappeared tomorrow, another in the same mould would be brought in, given the same agenda by Walsh, and the cycle would repeat. BA pilots might get a breather for several months, maybe even a year or two, but they could easily be back where they are right now, before very long.

That is the way big business works now - chew up the workers, spit them out, pocket fat 'bonuses', and move on to the next project of raping another business. These people are evil.
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Old 15th Sep 2019, 08:09
  #316 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Somerset
Posts: 76
BA Management

Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
Time for Cruz to go. He took over, or was given an airline to run, which was in good shape hence the 2b profit, no thanks to him. In his brief time he has:
1. reduced to share price to near an all time low.
2. Managed to precipitate the first pilot strike in the airlines “ 100 year “ history with the most incredible solidarity.
3. Has dumbed down the short haul product.
4 Picked up a huge fine, 183 m, for IT incompetence, the biggest penalty ever imposed by the ICO.
5. Managed to precipitate trainers and even managers to resign.
Now, compare that with the superb business performance of the late Sir Colin Marshall, who had the onerous task of vastly reducing staff numbers to get BA into shape, which he and Lord King certainly did. That said, Sir Colin managed to retain the respect of virtually all employees, and I have never heard of any unpleasantness levelled against him.

Its a long time since I was a BA pilot but I am an IAG shareholder, hoping for a nice gain when Cruz leaves as happened when Ayling left.

Time for change.





I agee with your points about the peformance but not about "Colon" Marshall as he was known. Lord King did the hard work of turning the airline round and reducing the workforce with compassion. Colon's style meant people turned up to work at Speedbird House and found their personal effects in a box outside their office meaning they had been fired. He also instituted the seagull management regime where senior managers did a job for 2 years, crapped on the staff and were then moved on to gain experience elsewhere. The whole airline would have worked better if the 4th floor had been demolished or sealed off with the SMs and Directors left to play with themselves while everybody else got on with running the airline. Colon was one of the least respected CEOs by the staff.

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Old 15th Sep 2019, 12:38
  #317 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Originally Posted by Blackfriar View Post
I agee with your points about the peformance but not about "Colon" Marshall as he was known. Lord King did the hard work of turning the airline round and reducing the workforce with compassion. Colon's style meant people turned up to work at Speedbird House and found their personal effects in a box outside their office meaning they had been fired. He also instituted the seagull management regime where senior managers did a job for 2 years, crapped on the staff and were then moved on to gain experience elsewhere. The whole airline would have worked better if the 4th floor had been demolished or sealed off with the SMs and Directors left to play with themselves while everybody else got on with running the airline. Colon was one of the least respected CEOs by the staff.
Perhaps, then, I have lived in a cosseted world, first I have heard of that, but then I had left the airline before CM.

I had thought those tactics were in the tenure of Ayling.

I live and learn.
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Old 15th Sep 2019, 15:23
  #318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by JPJP View Post


BA management would be ecstatic at that sort of deal. It’s probably far less than they’re planning on.

Some recent history

• In 2016 Delta pilots voted in a 18% immediate pay raise and a 3% & 4% raise for the next 3 years. Including backpack and retirement. 30 % over 4 years. In 2012 they’d agreed to large raises as well.

• Both years priorto both contracts they’d voted down a paltry pay rise
Not sure about southwest but the Delta paydeals have been about getting back to where they were prior to the September 11th attacks. With chapter 11 protection came many redundancies, a complete surrendering of the entire pension scheme and a circa 40% pay cut IIRC. No doubt they are very well remunerated now though! They also have a profit related bonus scheme...
BleedingOn is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2019, 15:28
  #319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 358
Originally Posted by Abbey Road View Post
Don't forget who put Cruz in the BA CEO chair - it was IAG. And the man at the top of the IAG pyramid is Walsh. Even if Cruz disappeared tomorrow, another in the same mould would be brought in, given the same agenda by Walsh, and the cycle would repeat. BA pilots might get a breather for several months, maybe even a year or two, but they could easily be back where they are right now, before very long.

That is the way big business works now - chew up the workers, spit them out, pocket fat 'bonuses', and move on to the next project of raping another business. These people are evil.
Absolutely. . . . people are missing the point calling for Cruz's head. . . . won't make any difference. Cruz may well be made the fall guy, but he's carrying out orders, so could well be kept in place. . .
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Old 15th Sep 2019, 15:37
  #320 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 16
Blackfriar,the picture you paint of Sir Colin Marshall is not the one i have of the man.
I met him several times whilst he was Chief Executive at BA and found him to be the most approachable and decent manager i have ever encountered at this airline.
The airline prospered under his leadership and enjoyed the best years for both employees and customers.
Things went downhill after he departed and we are now, where we are.
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