SandLat650

AC,

Your roster looks nothing like mine. From about April to when I went on leave in August I pretty much did 5 on 2 off, 5 on 2 off, etc, etc. My days off were Tue/Wed - for weeks! Lots of people were the same, ending up with the same days off for weeks on end. What happened to the rolling roster?

In the last couple of months (after I got my first rostered weekend off since March), I'm back on something like 5 on, 2 off, 5 on 2 off, 5 on 2 off, 6 on 2 off. It rolls, but very slowly and I'm currently on Thur/Fri off with a Sat coming at the end of the month. It sure as hell isn't going to stall on Sat/Sun off for weeks on end and IF I actually get a rostered weekend off in the next 5 weeks, it'll probably be just one. Personally, I think I'm owed a couple but rostering probably won't agree.

From my own stand point, the rostering (!) and lack of roster stability are the 2 biggest problems in Flybe at present. They've apparently realised this and have, by all accounts, agreed to try and solve it. However, being the cynic I am, I'll believe it when I see it.

Regards

tiggerific_69

surely once all this goes ahead,the extra crew will hopefully alleviate the amount of work and maybe more weekends off will be available for all?

Cornflake

You make some very good points Prince, whether or not everyone will agree with everything you say is something else. However, it's still FAR too early to be making such big decisions, particularly after the debacle and the dust still being all in the air. Get Xmas out of the way, see which way things look likely to go and by then the CV exercises will be more complete. One of my biggest problems is that I was rather unimpressed by your Dash FM when he moved from Brymon as one of TDLF's lickspittles. He used to regularly talk about his many thousands of hours on VC10s and Nimrods (I think) and was hugely embarrassed when it was pointed out he'd actually been a Flight Engineer. As an FO he took over the ATP fleet, said he would be concentrating on 'management' and that management shouldn't be trainers, and was no sooner LHS qualified than he mysteriously became a trainer, and qualified for the extra dosh. I know it was thought he left the Fleet in an awful mess administratively when he left - I wouldn't have thought he had the nouse to run a 60 a/c fleet. Does any of that sound familiar, or has the Exeter air changed him?

Noiffsorbuts

Interesting post LP.

Everybody has got their own pet concern about this.

To some its staff travel, others its pay, pensions, rostering or what ac youll fly. Your issue is seniority.

Speaking personaly I dont give a monkeys about moving from the 145 to the 400. Actualy having sat in it for five years Id love something new and will welcome the challenge!

A word of advice if I may be so bold.

The minute anyone sits down and says "you move my piece of cheese over my dead body"............you are going to have a very unhappy bunny, because things dont work that way.

Change brings with it opportunity as well as localised **** storms

So, at the risk of sounding patronising, open your mind, accept that change is happening, not all of it to your taste and lets all get on with making this thing work without bunkering down in your individual silo.

The one thing is for certain and that is the arrival of us lot sure as hell is going to put pressure on your terms and conditions upwards as some of us know a thing or two about getting these .Those of us who battled the excretable offerings from BA in the guise of their seconded managers got some pretty good agreements despite some pretty bloody street fighting, notably over scheduling.

Bacon Slicer

Well done The Little Prince- you and I are on the same LOC/GS- good post
To the rest of you chaps, just for once have your day, and insist absolutely that PH/CP/DD are all paraded around the bases for a pleasant cup of tea and Cucumber sandwiches with the pilots, cabin crew, engineers and ground staff who's lives are to change - better still wheel Evans out as well. They are the people who need there smug faces wiping in the reality of what really was BA Connect - sell by date expired/reduced to sell. A dog's dinner if ever their was one.

At least those who were Brymon -7/-8 can walk away with heads held high,(not you RU) - I know little of the other constituents from the rock etc however.

NOIFFSORBUTTS - you need to realise that at last you are working for a business not a ****ing flying club - it is called COMMERCIAL AVIATION not BALPA CC AIRWAYS!


Bacon Slicer


p.s. better put the slicer on Ebay now, what am i bid?

The Little Prince

BACONslicers will be in much demand for the next few months - so don't sell just yet!!! Everyone who knows me knows I am Captain Moderate, rarely getting excited about anything except cabin crew, ( ). However, for the record, and for Noiifs, my post was really aimed at the people who have already used immoderate phraseology and made what sound funnily like ultimatums about wanting their cake and eating it ie continuing with their Ts and Cs even though those same Ts and Cs have helped sink their current employer and would involve seriously trashing a lot of their new colleagues!!!.
I suppose everything is up for discussion, but a sense of proportion would be adviseable from those who have just been thrown a lifeline. If you want to tie that line around your necks, then do so, but you'll be cut adrift, not even dragged along!

Mr Angry from Purley

Sandlat650
Must be lack of crew forcing lack of w/e off. AIMS has a brilliant report on weekends (i should know I asked them to provide it 15 years ago) maybe you should ask your Pilot Reps for a print out. Wonder what will happen with systems - Flybe AIMS, Bacon - RM

fudpucker

Good luck to all my old chums from Brymon days and yes, even to folks I met after Citiexpress was formed. A word of advice though, from the outside, I don't think that anybody is in a position to 'demand' anything ~ this deal has obviously been brewing for some time and IF BACON crews are still employed by BACON then BACON would be responsible for any redundancies etc. If I was JF then I would make damn sure that BA wields the knife and then I'd offer crews employment. If BACON ceases to exist then there is no TUPE protection (which is not actually worth the paper it's written on long term) and EZE/RYR could only hire so many pilots. I remember the angst (and anger) when the seniority lists of BRAL/MANX & Brymon were merged. There will be winners and losers, but if BACON crews start demanding the earth, then they will be the losers.
Good luck to all and as was said previously, let the dust settle before getting het-up about things.

EMB170

Little Prince,
you don't need to talk about seniority, as you bypassed a lot of people
who were senior to you , but that is what happens when you let a F/E at the controlls ! Now you are talking about how crap the management is/was but you were brown noseying up to them and part of it !
No, I'm not bitter I left over a year ago and have the best job I could wish for!
Good luck to the EX-Brymon Boys and Girls, I hope it works out for you!!!

Bacon Slicer

FlyingBug- can I suggest you slide that bottle of Burgundy back in the rack and replace the corkscrew back in the drawer?

100above

Little Prince
You decided to jump ship early, many of us chose not to for various reasons. Now though, the deal is about to be done and most of us will happily fly a 145 or Dash with flybe on the side rather than British Airways and then move across to a Q400 when the time comes, assuming the Q400 pay scale moves out of the dark ages and approaches that of the 146 - I guess the exodus of crews off the Q400 will force the company to address that anomaly sooner rather than later . Fortunately, we are bringing a substantial amount to the flybe table - long established routes, prime time slots and several million passengers. You know as well as we do that BA will distort the figures to suit themselves about how much of a loss we are making. Bear in mind that many of our troubles are down to BAR integration and we are still paying the price. BA want rid of their non core activities regardless of profit or loss in much the same way that CitiExpress dumped profitable routes and bases to make their presentations at Waterworld look impressive as our top class management improved the efficiency of our operation ( a quick check with Eastern, Southwest and Loganair should confirm how well those routes were actually performing). Personally I spend my days hauling nearly full Embraers off runways every day and I dont believe our commercial performance is nearly as bad as WW makes out. So as the 2 airlines merge so will the seniority lists. flybe has a massive order for new aircraft which they need to allocate to routes which are established and will make money - we are bringing them. You need more access to major European hubs like FRA and CDG - we are bringing that too. Finally to service these routes, you need crews and plenty of them - again we come as part of the package. Most of us have joined this company when it was Loganair, Manx, BRAL or Brymon - we are experienced at turboprop operations in the regions, where money was tight, turnrounds were quick and we all mucked in. Most of us will fit in well to flybe, but to suggest we slot in at the bottom of your seniority list is neither fair nor reasonable and it wont happen. We are looking forward to the future and so should you. With integration should come a chance to improve your existing Ts and Cs and salaries without impacting on profits as crews choose to stay and training costs reduce. With the massive growth and revenue we are about to bring to flybe this could be a good time for both pilot groups and help secure the continued success of flybe in a desperately competitive industry .

In trim

100 above....I totally agree with FB. Yours is one of the most reasoned posts on the topic so far, and I only hope things work out for all of you.

I was impacted by another one of BA's bizarre decisions in the past, and although I now work elsewhere, I know the uncertainty which faced us all at the time, and I wish all flybe and BA CON employees the best for a smooth transition which may well result in something quite special!!

Megaton

"I guess the exodus of crews off the Q400 will force the company to address that anomaly sooner rather than later"

FlyBE have been losing Dash pilots for ages and they have never made any meaningful attempt to retain them so I'd be very surprised if they change now. You all thought BACON management was bad?

brain fade

Apart from the fact that they make money, , FlyBE sound more & more like BACX/ Bacon but with a bit less pay and a lot more work.

I'm minded to split. Only a decent offer in T&C terms is likely to keep me.

I've no axe to grind and frankly I wish the new, combined airline only good luck and fair winds.

I'd like to see progress in;

1. Staff travel. How about existing concessions for say 5 years? Wont cost BA a cent.

2. Scheduling agreement. Much has been said about the BACon scheme, but.................... A hefty payment for a day off can often save a cancellation and result in a profitable situation for all.
Disruption payments can be avoided by good quality rostering. At BACon there was a sliding scale inasmuch as the disruption payments were reduced if they were occurring less frequently (due good rostering), but went back up if being overused (indication of short crewing or poor rostering).
This encouraged considerate rostering. Anyone got a problem with that?

3. Seniority. This is clear from all sides and I see the Flybe guys point too. Don't know how it'll turn out, but something acceptable will be negotiated I hope, otherwise the number joining Flybe will be less. Maybe that won't bother Mr. French tho'. After all he's been given a free airline so who cares who leaves? Not being cynical but there's a balance to be struck here, and it may suit Flybe for a lot of us to leave.

4. Pay. Flybe make a lot of money. I'm not taking a pay cut, especially as it sounds like Flybe pilots are flying their bollocks off!

Fingers crossed! It would be nice to just step over.

Tandemrotor

Somebody earlier in these posts was correct: BACON bring a lot to the table regarding routes and experienced pilots. Flybe pilots should also not underestimate the aspirations that will accompany the BACON pilots regarding more professional (though according to some, not more 'progressive'?) T & Cs. This is potentially a huge advantage to the long term aspirations of most flybe pilots.

What is obvious however, is that flybe have just been presented with the best Christmas present they could ever have wished for: The surrender of perhaps their closest competitor.

From my side of the fence, I too am disgusted!

What is uttter garbage, is the suggestion that BACON T & Cs somehow "helped to sink their current employer"

I know TLP is naive, but this is utter crap.

There are some significant debating points ahead, which will almost certainly be decided by commercial muscle, and not necessarily the grey areas of employment law!

If there is an alienation of ex BACON pilots, flybe pilots will not benefit in the way they otherwise could. If this is handled in an open and unprejudiced atmosphere, there will be benefits for all. Crucially because the two workforces are so similar in size. There needs to be an acceptance of 'fairness' on all sides.

If the normal 'tribal' influences hold sway however, this is going to be difficult to live through.

I wish all the very best.

ingridiines

Hello there just a quick post for those worried about losing staff travel concessions.

Flybe unlike Ryanair and Easyjet is an IATA airline with full interline agreements with most major airlines and many minor ones too enabling all staff of flybe ID90 tickets for sub load/stand by travel worldwide as well as with flybe. We have self ticketing agreements with most major airlines also which means you can get your hands on the tickets almost immediately (one call to EXT for other airlines then collect straight away at ticket desk if required in a hurry or if you are travelling on a flybe flight you can book and collect tickets anytime at any of their ticket desks).

Good luck to all!

Sky God

Thanks for the sample roster, AC. Does what you actually end up flying actually resemble what you have at the start of the month in print?

LP: great to read about the healthy profits, but do they pass any of them on to the staff each year?

It’s now been five days since the announcement and I have yet to meet a FlyBe rep. They had better start selling this takeover ASAP otherwise they will acquire a demoralized and uncooperative workforce.

FlyBe should get their people around the crewrooms soon. A bit of FlyBe propaganda would be better than nothing. All I’ve heard over the past couple of days is cries of: “RED HOT POKER INBOUND!!.... RED HOT POKER INBOUND!!!”.

flying jocks

As I think all would no doubt disagree, the merger (considered a merger by virtue of relative sizes of both companies) or takeover (as it is officially) was outside the control of staff from both sides of the fence.
Timing has been crucial in proposing a sale date for BACON and at present there should be enough time for all to reflect on what has happened and subsequently decide whether they are staying or voluntarily leaving the company since it has been decided to keep the pilot community employed.
Moving on from past years and hearing people complain about being treated badly and having to suffer yet another form of disruption will not make THEIR situation any better.
There may be unfortunates in the company who have worked hard and feel that they were next in line for a promotion etc. At the end of the day, there is a business to run and the transition should be managed as smoothly as possible to avoid existing longterm BA customers from making alternative arrangements (say routeing through London) rather than get a point to point service which they are already used to and enjoy. (Perhaps executive club points could be cashed in for the first year on Flybe routes at a preferable "exchange rate" to continue interest in the business)
What we should be concentrating on are not which equipment we will get to play with when the dust settles, but minimum disruption to our lives. YES THAT IS RIGHT - we need to protect what we have got and not try to sulk too much about what failed opportunities this whole experience has caused.
As deciding seniority etc. The only fair way is by DOJ, however this should not put one pilot into the precarious position of wondering which pilot more senior can displace him/her from their present position. Promotions should be decided based on relevant experience (the same way as if you were applying for a job outside the company), so all factors eg. Total time, PIC time, jet time, turboprop time aswell as training qualifications (TRI, TRE) should be considered before looking at the list and deciding, who is next?
Those who do not wake up to that could be for a very long time

The Little Prince

Now that really does make me smile! To read old Tandem criticising "tribal influences" after his war dances against BACX and for BA BALPA is quite, quite hysterical. In fact, the only thing I've seen funnier is his description of what BACON bring to the carving block, after his insistence over the last 'n' years that we brought nothing to BA which was why we shouldn't be integrated. Then there is the almost as amusing statement that "the suggestion that BACON T & Cs somehow "helped to sink their current employer" - of course, silly old me, overheads play no part in the bottom line do they?? Remember the awful RJ serviceability and all the work that Flightline and Titan got, that was even more than the 400 quid a day being handed out to all and sundry. Great for the short term capitalists, but long term.....maybe another reason why we are shortly to see some IR from mainline.

Excuse me anyway, I have to go - I was thinking about merged seniority and I just saw an airborne pig (or was it a packet of smoked bacon) on short finals!

Xploy Ted

It is worth looking back to the merger of BRAL & Brymon. Management have a positive interest in divide & rule and will grasp any thread of disunity and play it for all it is worth.

In the end, the possibility of legal action if they forced a merger that suited them, rather than let the union resolve it won out.

Trouble was avoided in that merger by hard work from both CCs and good common sense on both sides. The protective instincts of the troops in a senirority merger are music to management ears, so be careful and go for a merged seniority solution based on fairness not protection.

BALPA need to be given the hard word along these lines too, as whilst they are your best hope, they too are human enough to want a solution rather than war. Remember that everybody in these deals has an agenda!

Good luck, you'll all need it and besides, not everyone can walk.