FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
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Little prince. I'm moved to post here, which is something I usually avoid, 'cos your the first one that seems to be able to see the wood.
If only our (Hopefully) departed managers had you insight.
If only our (Hopefully) departed managers had you insight.
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Wee Weazley Welshman
Apologies if that offended - I didn't mean it as a comment on either company in any sort of professionally comparable terms of any sort. I have mates with both, some who slag each off, and some who think each is a top operator. I merely meant to show the direction most likely to be taken by people who have the desire and the ability to move on.
Incidentally, I note iwht interest a previous post about numbers. That had actually crossed my mind - the fact that the total number of bacons exceeded considearbly the planned expansion. I have no idea how accurate those numbers are, but there does seem to be an imbalance. A realist may therefore presume that Jim and the lads will not be unhappy to see Baconeers ride away into the sunset, the more so because there will then be no possible redundancy costs.
This the real world gents, sh1t happens all the time, and we are collectively no different to train drivers or assembly line workes as far as the laws of economics work. The one thing we never ever do is take any action; that's the only thing I admire about BA, their pilots do, often, act together to protect their jobs and Ts/Cs. That's why they are, or were, the best in the industry. You watch how they make old Willie step backwards over the pension issue, I still don't think he's a believer, but he will be in six months! We had several opportunities to achieve a similar result, but we bottled it every time - that was one of the final reasons I jacked it in and moved here - there was never going to be any improvement and the writing (which had been on the wall almost from the start) was being outlined in red an highlighted electrically for all to see.
BTW again, out new Head of Training is another top bloke, ex Manx/BRAL, and very talented. Just shows that not all of us had our heads in the sand, and that there's a great life outside BACX/BACON.
I do hope people will see the realities.
Incidentally, I note iwht interest a previous post about numbers. That had actually crossed my mind - the fact that the total number of bacons exceeded considearbly the planned expansion. I have no idea how accurate those numbers are, but there does seem to be an imbalance. A realist may therefore presume that Jim and the lads will not be unhappy to see Baconeers ride away into the sunset, the more so because there will then be no possible redundancy costs.
This the real world gents, sh1t happens all the time, and we are collectively no different to train drivers or assembly line workes as far as the laws of economics work. The one thing we never ever do is take any action; that's the only thing I admire about BA, their pilots do, often, act together to protect their jobs and Ts/Cs. That's why they are, or were, the best in the industry. You watch how they make old Willie step backwards over the pension issue, I still don't think he's a believer, but he will be in six months! We had several opportunities to achieve a similar result, but we bottled it every time - that was one of the final reasons I jacked it in and moved here - there was never going to be any improvement and the writing (which had been on the wall almost from the start) was being outlined in red an highlighted electrically for all to see.BTW again, out new Head of Training is another top bloke, ex Manx/BRAL, and very talented. Just shows that not all of us had our heads in the sand, and that there's a great life outside BACX/BACON.
I do hope people will see the realities.
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If anything the new airline will be SHORT of pilots.
Flybe gets the a/c and the pilots flying them. It will need the pilots unless it plans to not fly the a/c. There are no extra pilots in BACon.
I notice my prev post about BA leaving the regions has passed without comment.
Flybe gets the a/c and the pilots flying them. It will need the pilots unless it plans to not fly the a/c. There are no extra pilots in BACon.
I notice my prev post about BA leaving the regions has passed without comment.
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But I thought a lot of the new types are actually replacements for existing hulls? Not all, but a lot? I think most of us are too busy trying to get ANY sensible and coherent information about what is actually going to happen. I know three people who have been offered RJ course - only one has accepted, and I know one RJ guy who has accepted an Emb course. It all seems to depend who you speak to. Managers falling over themselves to tell you nothing at all - does anyone genuinely know who is going where? I would have thought that PH etc will have to stay where they are as terms of the AOC. In the same way, the Embs and Dashes are on BACON's AOC, Flybe can't just take them over. I would have thought that Hutch.Evans etc would need to remain in charge (!!!!!!) of all of these types in two different operations just to stay legal. An oddball situation - do we ever have anything else.
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Brain fade is correct
your observations about the fate of the BA mainline employees in the regions ground handling operations is spot on.A deliberate attempt to get rid of all mainline employees in the regions,this following hot on the heels of the closure of the shuttle cabin crew outstations.T5 is BA's only interest,I feel the all the eggs in 1 basket will come to haunt them for one reason or another in this unpredictable world in which we now live.
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B.E.A. and B.O.A.C.
Looks like the similar things that happened when B.O.A.C and B.E.A. joined together.
What is next on the cards with the 1st of January fast approaching with the first major step of the Flybe plan,
What is next on the cards with the 1st of January fast approaching with the first major step of the Flybe plan,
"I notice my prev post about BA leaving the regions has passed without comment"
Not totally unnoticed - from the Edinburgh Evening Post:
"107 ground staff face the axe as BA sells off Capital routes
ALAN RODEN TRANSPORT REPORTER ([email protected])
SCORES of baggage handlers and check-in staff at Edinburgh Airport face being made redundant by British Airways.
Following the planned sell-off of the loss-making subsidiary BA Connect to rival Flybe, up to half of the 218 workers in the Capital could be laid off. The airline giant today announced a review of staffing levels at four regional airports - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Manchester.
The sale of 15 Scottish routes means British Airways will not need as many ground staff at the airports. Some of the workers should be able to secure new jobs with Flybe, but dozens of others are likely to become unemployed.
A spokesman for the Transport and General Workers Union said it was too early to tell how many may be made redundant.
"It is hard to say what is going to happen. What we want is to make sure our members are fully informed of what is happening and that they are properly consulted."
He said the union was planning to hold meetings with Flybe over the jobs threat.
British Airway's operation from Edinburgh is set to be reduced to just flights to the three London airports, as well as Madrid and Rome.
BA Connect routes to Birmingham, Bristol, Hamburg, Manchester, Paris and Southampton will be taken on by Flybe.
Including London City, which will be retained by British Airways under a new subsidiary, these routes account for 53 per cent of its Edinburgh operation - suggesting nearly half of all staff could be surplus to requirements.
In Glasgow, 160 staff will be affected by the review, with 56 in Aberdeen and around 300 in Manchester. At Edinburgh, those affected all work on the check-in desks, or as baggage handlers and customer service liaison officers.
A spokesman for the airline said there would be a "significant impact" on ground operations as a result of the proposed deal.
"Up to the end of the transition period on March 25, there will be no changes," he said. "However, a significant proportion of ground-handling activity at these airports is driven by BA Connect operations. As a result, BA has launched a review of its regional ground-handling activity, which it hopes to conclude as quickly as possible. Senior managers will be visiting the four airports [to meet with staff] next week."
Not totally unnoticed - from the Edinburgh Evening Post:
"107 ground staff face the axe as BA sells off Capital routes
ALAN RODEN TRANSPORT REPORTER ([email protected])
SCORES of baggage handlers and check-in staff at Edinburgh Airport face being made redundant by British Airways.
Following the planned sell-off of the loss-making subsidiary BA Connect to rival Flybe, up to half of the 218 workers in the Capital could be laid off. The airline giant today announced a review of staffing levels at four regional airports - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Manchester.
The sale of 15 Scottish routes means British Airways will not need as many ground staff at the airports. Some of the workers should be able to secure new jobs with Flybe, but dozens of others are likely to become unemployed.
A spokesman for the Transport and General Workers Union said it was too early to tell how many may be made redundant.
"It is hard to say what is going to happen. What we want is to make sure our members are fully informed of what is happening and that they are properly consulted."
He said the union was planning to hold meetings with Flybe over the jobs threat.
British Airway's operation from Edinburgh is set to be reduced to just flights to the three London airports, as well as Madrid and Rome.
BA Connect routes to Birmingham, Bristol, Hamburg, Manchester, Paris and Southampton will be taken on by Flybe.
Including London City, which will be retained by British Airways under a new subsidiary, these routes account for 53 per cent of its Edinburgh operation - suggesting nearly half of all staff could be surplus to requirements.
In Glasgow, 160 staff will be affected by the review, with 56 in Aberdeen and around 300 in Manchester. At Edinburgh, those affected all work on the check-in desks, or as baggage handlers and customer service liaison officers.
A spokesman for the airline said there would be a "significant impact" on ground operations as a result of the proposed deal.
"Up to the end of the transition period on March 25, there will be no changes," he said. "However, a significant proportion of ground-handling activity at these airports is driven by BA Connect operations. As a result, BA has launched a review of its regional ground-handling activity, which it hopes to conclude as quickly as possible. Senior managers will be visiting the four airports [to meet with staff] next week."
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My own personal forecast on what will happen:
- Flybe is not interest in running two separate companies
- Flybe has no interest in moving any of the inherent costs from BAcon to Flybe.
- The whole of BAcon employees will be put under notice of redundancy.
- Positions will be offered in the new BA company and Flybe to everyone under notice - under Flybe or 'new BA' agreements.
- There will be no marriage of seniority lists etc. The only members of the workforce Flybe will consult with are those already employed by Flybe. BAcon crew will only be consulted on terms of redundancy.
- The new commands which would now appear in Flybe would have to be applied for by both Flybe FOs and any BAcon pilot.
- Pensions, flight tickets etc will be frozen at the point of redundancy from BAcon, under the current BAcon terms for ending of employment.
- BAcon crew will basically be forced into applying as their current type ratings are not in high demand at their current bases and the charter boys do not have any expansion plans for Summer
- Flybe cancel c. 30% of BAcon routes as being unprofitable even with Flybes costs.
-BA withdrawal from the regions and subcontract all work to third parties, as most of the Uk regions will have less BA flights than airports outside the UK.
- BA takes any new slot they can at LHR and move as much of the LGW longhaul operation to T5 as they can.
- All the new BA jobs will be based at LCY as a dual base with LHR
A personal view and it will be interesting over the next 6 months how much of this comes true.
- Flybe is not interest in running two separate companies
- Flybe has no interest in moving any of the inherent costs from BAcon to Flybe.
- The whole of BAcon employees will be put under notice of redundancy.
- Positions will be offered in the new BA company and Flybe to everyone under notice - under Flybe or 'new BA' agreements.
- There will be no marriage of seniority lists etc. The only members of the workforce Flybe will consult with are those already employed by Flybe. BAcon crew will only be consulted on terms of redundancy.
- The new commands which would now appear in Flybe would have to be applied for by both Flybe FOs and any BAcon pilot.
- Pensions, flight tickets etc will be frozen at the point of redundancy from BAcon, under the current BAcon terms for ending of employment.
- BAcon crew will basically be forced into applying as their current type ratings are not in high demand at their current bases and the charter boys do not have any expansion plans for Summer
- Flybe cancel c. 30% of BAcon routes as being unprofitable even with Flybes costs.
-BA withdrawal from the regions and subcontract all work to third parties, as most of the Uk regions will have less BA flights than airports outside the UK.
- BA takes any new slot they can at LHR and move as much of the LGW longhaul operation to T5 as they can.
- All the new BA jobs will be based at LCY as a dual base with LHR
A personal view and it will be interesting over the next 6 months how much of this comes true.
Last edited by swedish; 11th Nov 2006 at 22:17.
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nothing to do with thread:
thank you to the moderators for moving this back to rumours and news, it has appeared over the past year that if it is not BA then it is not news and moved. Wel done for recognising us mear mortals :-)
thank you to the moderators for moving this back to rumours and news, it has appeared over the past year that if it is not BA then it is not news and moved. Wel done for recognising us mear mortals :-)
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SWBKCB
Well, I'm glad.
There's been FA in the Herald not to mention Brum or Man press.
Pilots may (I'm one) be ok. Ground staff are totally screwed.
ALL BA STAFF AT EDI ARE FOR THE CHOP!
As for BA 'presence' in the 'regions'?
Apparantly a matter of supreme indifference to all.
Well, I'm glad.
There's been FA in the Herald not to mention Brum or Man press.
Pilots may (I'm one) be ok. Ground staff are totally screwed.
ALL BA STAFF AT EDI ARE FOR THE CHOP!
As for BA 'presence' in the 'regions'?
Apparantly a matter of supreme indifference to all.
Last edited by brain fade; 11th Nov 2006 at 23:58.
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You were doing so well until you got to....
.....which is illegal under UK law. But then if you haven't bothered to read the rest of the thread then how are you to know that.
The whole of BAcon employees will be put under notice of redundancy.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Well, CM - is that why the 1992 letter of 'selection' for BA(EOG) from the DanAir 'pilot pool' began
"You have not been selected for redundancy"
Has the law changed?
"You have not been selected for redundancy"
Has the law changed?
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Bonding
Anyone care to speculate what the position will be regarding bonding?
Lets face it, at some stage for the common good, BA Con will cease to exist and we will all be merged into one big (hopefully mainly happy, if everyone tries to get whats best and fairest for all..) family.
I guess at some stage in this process we will move to the Q400 (and for a lucky few) the E195, and our current bonds will become void. So what's the deal if you have the Q300 on your licence, which I imagine many of us have, but not current.
Do we need to take a full conversion course for the Q400, or is it just a differences course, which I guess would require a minimal bond. Also, could a new employer force us to take a fresh bond for the whole conversion if only a differences is required?
Not looking to stir the sh1te with this, just a genuine query.
I still hope that both pilot communities can pull together on this lumping together of what are two large airlines, and if BALPA, and the new management take a sensible view about building a stable long term alternative to the jet only LOCOs, we can all have a part of something different and exciting, hopefully without too much pain, for anyone. There is enough of that around for our ground services colleagues at the moment.
No one saw this coming, but at BA Con we knew something had to give, so some change was inevitable. Some of our folks will walk for whatever reason, and those that do good luck and be successful. For those on both sides of the fence that want to just see the dust settle and some meat put on the bones of the plan, please lets act like the professionals we are and avoid points scoring and barrier building. God knows we've suffered enough in the past from one side being played off against the other by the management, and you can guess who the only winners will be if thats the case.
Here's hoping for a new, aggressive and strong airline that we can all be proud of, and want to stay at and make work, not because there is a gun to your head, but because you get a fair days pay and decent and sustainable Ts & Cs, in return for a fair days work.
OAP
Lets face it, at some stage for the common good, BA Con will cease to exist and we will all be merged into one big (hopefully mainly happy, if everyone tries to get whats best and fairest for all..) family.
I guess at some stage in this process we will move to the Q400 (and for a lucky few) the E195, and our current bonds will become void. So what's the deal if you have the Q300 on your licence, which I imagine many of us have, but not current.
Do we need to take a full conversion course for the Q400, or is it just a differences course, which I guess would require a minimal bond. Also, could a new employer force us to take a fresh bond for the whole conversion if only a differences is required?
Not looking to stir the sh1te with this, just a genuine query.
I still hope that both pilot communities can pull together on this lumping together of what are two large airlines, and if BALPA, and the new management take a sensible view about building a stable long term alternative to the jet only LOCOs, we can all have a part of something different and exciting, hopefully without too much pain, for anyone. There is enough of that around for our ground services colleagues at the moment.
No one saw this coming, but at BA Con we knew something had to give, so some change was inevitable. Some of our folks will walk for whatever reason, and those that do good luck and be successful. For those on both sides of the fence that want to just see the dust settle and some meat put on the bones of the plan, please lets act like the professionals we are and avoid points scoring and barrier building. God knows we've suffered enough in the past from one side being played off against the other by the management, and you can guess who the only winners will be if thats the case.
Here's hoping for a new, aggressive and strong airline that we can all be proud of, and want to stay at and make work, not because there is a gun to your head, but because you get a fair days pay and decent and sustainable Ts & Cs, in return for a fair days work.
OAP
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Finding the right balance.
Having followed this thread for 14 pages now it is interesting to see folk falling into different categories:-
- The pragmatists, who seem to take the balanced view and seek the fairest and most practical way forward.
- The aggressors, who still seem intent on 'rape & pillage'.
- The pessimists, who see doom & gloom around every corner.
- The ostriches, who think nothing will change and the best of everything will remain.
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On of the Q400 biggest problems is its common type ratting with 300/200/100 series D8 as this means we have got the same nightmare overhead panel and switchgear as the older types. However in this case it does mean that all you bacon boys with 300 ratings should only need the differences course and this is good news as Flybe now have a "square" bond for full type ratings on the Q400. £13k ish over three years, non reducing, so if you left after 2 years and 364 days you would still owe the full wack (ouch). However since its not your choice to change type, it is being done at the companies beheist as your current types are removed from the fleet should you be bonded at all? Question for your balpa reps maybe?
The last flybe base plan I saw had only D8's in GUR after the 146's are removed and I think all of the island flights from the mainland are on Q4's already so no need for the 195 to get into the really short fields on the domestic network. Any of the bacon routes go into places in europe with runways shorter than SOU?
A bigger problem might be that the 195 isn't as good a short field aircraft as hoped.....and the Q400 isn't big enough for some routes. Hmm.
There's life left in the 146 yet possibly. Slow they might be, fuel efficient they may not be (though not bad compared to an A318!!) but they do perform some things very well and better than the others too, try getting into the Island with winds of 180/45G60 in either a Q400 or EMB145/195 then!
There's life left in the 146 yet possibly. Slow they might be, fuel efficient they may not be (though not bad compared to an A318!!) but they do perform some things very well and better than the others too, try getting into the Island with winds of 180/45G60 in either a Q400 or EMB145/195 then!
Last edited by fly-dj; 12th Nov 2006 at 14:48.
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Other jobs around INV????????????
Well done Paul, I'm sure that's pretty difficult up at INV, but very wise given that the route will almost certainly become a Q400 route and pretty definitely operated from LGW. Who are you moving to, surely not back to the Logy?
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