FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
I can understand why The Little Prince would feel that way although I don't agree with his drawing a line in the sand attitude.
Such intransigence will get us nowhere. Instead, a modicum of sense and logic applied can easily come up with other alternatives.
TLP is worried that he will be disadvantaged if/when the seniority lists are merged based on DOJ, as he previously worked for BACX before jumping ship to start at the bottom of the Flybe seniority list... I would feel aggrieved or worried too in his position.
The BACon crews definitely do not want to be simply tagged onto the bottom of the Flybe list, and who could argue with that? If you had served 10 or 12 years, to have a fresh 200hr recruit above you on the seniority list, when you have had such a 'change of company' forced upon you. Such a move would inevitably lead to an exodus of crew, and let's face it, Flybe NEED crew for a recently aquired massive expansion of their network. Flight cancellations were in the offing before this merger due to lack of crews. If you do this often enough you will lose your customers, and sound the death knell.
The merged seniority list could be achieved by DOJ of whichever company which is most beneficial to the individual. For example, TLP's position would be determined by his DOJ with BRAL. Any guys currently with BACon who were previously employed by JY/BE/Flybe would use that DOJ. Obviously with the proviso that it is based on a continual service with either of the companies, and they have not been to a third airline in the interim.
Food for thought.
Such intransigence will get us nowhere. Instead, a modicum of sense and logic applied can easily come up with other alternatives.
TLP is worried that he will be disadvantaged if/when the seniority lists are merged based on DOJ, as he previously worked for BACX before jumping ship to start at the bottom of the Flybe seniority list... I would feel aggrieved or worried too in his position.
The BACon crews definitely do not want to be simply tagged onto the bottom of the Flybe list, and who could argue with that? If you had served 10 or 12 years, to have a fresh 200hr recruit above you on the seniority list, when you have had such a 'change of company' forced upon you. Such a move would inevitably lead to an exodus of crew, and let's face it, Flybe NEED crew for a recently aquired massive expansion of their network. Flight cancellations were in the offing before this merger due to lack of crews. If you do this often enough you will lose your customers, and sound the death knell.
The merged seniority list could be achieved by DOJ of whichever company which is most beneficial to the individual. For example, TLP's position would be determined by his DOJ with BRAL. Any guys currently with BACon who were previously employed by JY/BE/Flybe would use that DOJ. Obviously with the proviso that it is based on a continual service with either of the companies, and they have not been to a third airline in the interim.
Food for thought.
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Fortunately, we are bringing a substantial amount to the flybe table - long established routes, prime time slots and several million passengers.
As for moving across on the same T & C's as the BACON crews currently have - dream on! Flybe is a LOW COST carrier, they aren't going to improve anything unless they absolutely have to. And remember, it isn't a merger, the BACON crews have absolutely no bargaining power here.
If I were a BACON pilot, I'd be getting my CV dusted off right now, because the only way is down with this acquisition. Lower pay, poorer T & C's, inferior equipment. Better than being unemployed, of course.
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Harsh but, I regret, probably true. As I said several days ago, this is a takeover, not a friendly merger. While pay and T&Cs will, no doubt, be worked on over the coming years, the BACon guys and girls are in no position to demand anything from the new employer and if they think that life is going to continue as before, on what was, let's be honest, gold plated conditions (in the end) for a regional operation, then that reality check is in order - or get those CVs polished.
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Takeover my ARSE!
A takeover is when one company buys another.
Flybe have paid sweet FA for BACon!
OK, they'll have to hand over 15% of their stock when they float.
But as the company will be 50% bigger due to adding BACon, that will be no hardship.
Also as BA then will hold 15% they'll only have to buy another 35.1% of the stock if they want to repaint the tails red, white & blue and reenter the regions with exactly the set up they need.
ps. Spare a thought for the many mainline BA folk who'll soon lose their jobs due to connect closing. Seems to be that BHX, for example will soon close completely as a BA base after 35 years with the loss of 400 jobs. Other 'outstations' like MAN, GLA, EDI, BRS etc will also lose many jobs although the employees are not connect.
A takeover is when one company buys another.
Flybe have paid sweet FA for BACon!
OK, they'll have to hand over 15% of their stock when they float.
But as the company will be 50% bigger due to adding BACon, that will be no hardship.
Also as BA then will hold 15% they'll only have to buy another 35.1% of the stock if they want to repaint the tails red, white & blue and reenter the regions with exactly the set up they need.
ps. Spare a thought for the many mainline BA folk who'll soon lose their jobs due to connect closing. Seems to be that BHX, for example will soon close completely as a BA base after 35 years with the loss of 400 jobs. Other 'outstations' like MAN, GLA, EDI, BRS etc will also lose many jobs although the employees are not connect.
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Would I be the only one to think this turkey was carved up long ago. It really doesn't matter what mud gets thrown here about how it should be, it will be the reality that people have to deal with, and as the old interview question goes ' have you ever had to give somebody bad news - how did you do it'.
When BA took over BCal and Dans there were winners (not many) and losers amongst pilots and other staff. Those that won did so at the expense of somebody in BA. Over time these things get forgotten and those passed over will eventually get their promotion or type change. The difference here is it will be much easier to leave the new company provided the LOCO or other regionals suit you (assuming you think any other regional is safe from a similar situation).
No matter what co you are presently with you should be considering all your options right now to be ready to face the reality when you know what it is.
I can only guess but I imagine that this is probably true for the whole of the UK regional market, if not now certainly in the near future.
I don't know how many posters are senior managers, maybe a few, but there is a negotiating table here and I don't think there are any pilots (as we know them) are invited to it, as usual these days we will be told how we're affected after he event.
Whatever else BACON possessed (routes, customers, airport access) that was for BA to use trying to sell the business not for pilots to exploit to keep their staff travel, t's and c's.
IN
overpaid support staff central to the core business - as seen by management
pilot - as seen by the customer
When BA took over BCal and Dans there were winners (not many) and losers amongst pilots and other staff. Those that won did so at the expense of somebody in BA. Over time these things get forgotten and those passed over will eventually get their promotion or type change. The difference here is it will be much easier to leave the new company provided the LOCO or other regionals suit you (assuming you think any other regional is safe from a similar situation).
No matter what co you are presently with you should be considering all your options right now to be ready to face the reality when you know what it is.
I can only guess but I imagine that this is probably true for the whole of the UK regional market, if not now certainly in the near future.
I don't know how many posters are senior managers, maybe a few, but there is a negotiating table here and I don't think there are any pilots (as we know them) are invited to it, as usual these days we will be told how we're affected after he event.
Whatever else BACON possessed (routes, customers, airport access) that was for BA to use trying to sell the business not for pilots to exploit to keep their staff travel, t's and c's.
IN
overpaid support staff central to the core business - as seen by management
pilot - as seen by the customer
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I don't understand why you guys in Flybe and Bacon don't just pick up your sticks and go and earn a hell of alot more money with one of the jet low cost operators. There are so many jobs out there only an idiot would fly a prop aircraft for 40 grand!! I know for a fact if you have Q400 command time the jet operators are more than happy to put you in the left seat of a bus/ 737/ (one guy I know got a 757 command) In my mind flying a prop should command 100 grand plus. If flybe offered that, I might think about it.
Loads of jobs lads but it's up to you.
Loads of jobs lads but it's up to you.
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bid for freedom
Well the post from Hudson Bay is one of the more sensible on here at the moment. And yes lots of us are actively pursuing the easy/Ryan route at the moment.
After all you work just as hard at easyJet, yet you earn shed loads more cash, have a stable roster and don't have to fly some rather quaint thing with air paddles on the front! If you want to fly low cost, you might as well do it in the premiership, rather than the 4th division. Still its a good job there are plenty of folk out there willing to fly for food/nothing/I'll take this and be grateful I've got a job. Otherwise there would be a shortage of jobs at the real operators.
After all you work just as hard at easyJet, yet you earn shed loads more cash, have a stable roster and don't have to fly some rather quaint thing with air paddles on the front! If you want to fly low cost, you might as well do it in the premiership, rather than the 4th division. Still its a good job there are plenty of folk out there willing to fly for food/nothing/I'll take this and be grateful I've got a job. Otherwise there would be a shortage of jobs at the real operators.
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Its a god thing
Lots of bitterness here guys. From both sides by the looks of it. First of all I have to say that as a Q400 Capt I thorougly enjoy my work. Yes it is sometimes lots of it. This month I do 5/2/6/2/5/2/6/? The 2's are the days off and they are all late finish, early start. Not ideal by a long shot, but hopefully this will change with you guys joining us. Yes I mean joining and not taken over. Thats my way of looking at it anyway.
Apart from the fact tha we make money and you dont. You are briniging a huge asset to Flybe with your routes and experience. I for one welcome the situation. Not because we loose a competitor, but because we gain a lot.
Some may say that we worked hard to make Flybe what it is today and therfore we should not be disadvantaged by loosing out on seniority. The same is true for you guys and when we all merge it is all of our combined efforts over the past years that will form the new company.
I dont believe the new seniority list should be done by date of joining. From what I hear (It may not be true) that would be too much of an disadvantage for us in Flybe. Equally I dont think drawing a line in the sand and put you behind all of us is fair either.
Both companies have about 350 pilots. So personally I think a merging of the seniority list's by number in seniority is the way forward. I.e. number 1 on your list becomes number 2 on our list. Number 2 on our list would then be number 3 and 2 on your list would be number 4 and so on.
By doing this I for one would all the sudden get a lot more people in front of me, but I would also have a lot more people behind me. The proporsion would remain the same.
As for those who left BA Connect and joined Flybe. Starting to make special considerations would make it all messy. It would definately upset anyone in Flybe being put back by someone who joined after them. After all They made the decission to leave and joined another company. Losing you place on the seniority list is part of that. Thats just life.
I for one welcome the news and would like to say Welcome to our company. We all have to work together to make it work and we all have to make some concessions.
BA is also giving Flybe a lot of money to take on BA Connect. I heard in the region of 120-150M. Can't vouch for the accuracy of this though. Thats why they are getting the 15% share.
Apart from the fact tha we make money and you dont. You are briniging a huge asset to Flybe with your routes and experience. I for one welcome the situation. Not because we loose a competitor, but because we gain a lot.
Some may say that we worked hard to make Flybe what it is today and therfore we should not be disadvantaged by loosing out on seniority. The same is true for you guys and when we all merge it is all of our combined efforts over the past years that will form the new company.
I dont believe the new seniority list should be done by date of joining. From what I hear (It may not be true) that would be too much of an disadvantage for us in Flybe. Equally I dont think drawing a line in the sand and put you behind all of us is fair either.
Both companies have about 350 pilots. So personally I think a merging of the seniority list's by number in seniority is the way forward. I.e. number 1 on your list becomes number 2 on our list. Number 2 on our list would then be number 3 and 2 on your list would be number 4 and so on.
By doing this I for one would all the sudden get a lot more people in front of me, but I would also have a lot more people behind me. The proporsion would remain the same.
As for those who left BA Connect and joined Flybe. Starting to make special considerations would make it all messy. It would definately upset anyone in Flybe being put back by someone who joined after them. After all They made the decission to leave and joined another company. Losing you place on the seniority list is part of that. Thats just life.
I for one welcome the news and would like to say Welcome to our company. We all have to work together to make it work and we all have to make some concessions.
BA is also giving Flybe a lot of money to take on BA Connect. I heard in the region of 120-150M. Can't vouch for the accuracy of this though. Thats why they are getting the 15% share.
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A Fond Farewell
What a surprise! Good old BA, They have taken a profitable regional airline, ran it into the ground and all for some slots at LHR, As BA have a 15% stake in Flybe, I would not be to surprised that down the road when Flybe are making a massive profit that BA will do the exact same thing to them, To all my soon to be former colleagues good luck for the future and I bid thee A Fond Farewell 
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5/2/6/2/5/2/6/?
Captskyboy, I like your pitch but I don’t like the idea of 5/2/6/2/5/2/6/? and always working lates to earlies. I’ve done it before and I certainly won’t be doing it again for anyone. As a matter of interest, how many days’ leave do you get per year? And what about request days off, part-time working, etc?
For those who are worried about their pensions: Don’t. Working those shift patterns until you are 60/65 you won’t have a problem because your life expectancy will reduce to that of the average Glaswegian - plus a small bit (Sorry, Glaswegians).
Another day has gone by and no one from management has turned-up to placate us – and so the bitterness grows.
In the unlikely event that I am ever invited to go on Desert Island Disks I shall dispense with the usual record, book and luxury. Instead I will opt for DE pegged naked on the sand, a jug of gravy and a hungry Rottweiler!
For those who are worried about their pensions: Don’t. Working those shift patterns until you are 60/65 you won’t have a problem because your life expectancy will reduce to that of the average Glaswegian - plus a small bit (Sorry, Glaswegians).
Another day has gone by and no one from management has turned-up to placate us – and so the bitterness grows.
In the unlikely event that I am ever invited to go on Desert Island Disks I shall dispense with the usual record, book and luxury. Instead I will opt for DE pegged naked on the sand, a jug of gravy and a hungry Rottweiler!
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I don't understand why you guys in Flybe and Bacon don't just pick up your sticks and go and earn a hell of alot more money with one of the jet low cost operators. There are so many jobs out there only an idiot would fly a prop aircraft for 40 grand!! I know for a fact if you have Q400 command time the jet operators are more than happy to put you in the left seat of a bus/ 737/ (one guy I know got a 757 command) In my mind flying a prop should command 100 grand plus. If flybe offered that, I might think about it.
Loads of jobs lads but it's up to you.
Loads of jobs lads but it's up to you.
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No point making statements when we can't yet know the plan. For sure, not everyone will want to go, some will move sooner, some later. Not all RJ pilots will want to go to sunny EDI, and some non-RJ people may think that's a great idea. Until the dust settles, there's just no point speculating. The joke is that you can bet the people being loudest on here will be the ones being untruthful about their intentions.
I also think that Hutch and his mates have generated such a complete distrust of ANYTHING to do with BACON that what we are presently being told won't be believed anyway, until we finally get the last details from Flybe. Even then, people will obscure what they really think, and what they are planning. And why not - Hutch and his mates have lied, and lied and lied. For all we know, there's more to come yet!
I also think that Hutch and his mates have generated such a complete distrust of ANYTHING to do with BACON that what we are presently being told won't be believed anyway, until we finally get the last details from Flybe. Even then, people will obscure what they really think, and what they are planning. And why not - Hutch and his mates have lied, and lied and lied. For all we know, there's more to come yet!
Thread Starter
Captskyboy.
Very sensible ideas. Just for info, due to many other previous company mergers takeovers and much past managment meddling it was decided that the various lists that were merged to form the BACX / bacon list were reset to contractual (continuous service date of joining). Once the lists were fianlly put together and accepted it was agreed that dates of joining would be removed to stop any more bitching abbout who worked for who and when. We just have a list of names in an agreed order.
Merging the two lists in contractual date of joining would perhaps be more correct, but I agree with you, there might be a tendency for this to favour one side due to differences in time served in each company.
Even though I could see that this might advantage me, I think you are right, we should keep it simple just merge these lists based on position only. 1,1 2,2, 3,3...
From our own experience in BAcon, luck and base counts for more sometimes than just seniority position. Some TP peope in Flybe may end up for a time on the Bacon jets if they move towards some of the larger Bacon bases. Flybe pilot should not understimate just how many Bacon pilots would be perfctly happy on a TP including many current Jet pilots - so long as the pay levels are sorted of course. Most of the big jet wannabees have already gone and done that now and most who have stayed simply want a proper regional lifestyle (not BA's potty touring rosters) and they will happily take a TP if it means getting back to their base that was slashed under BA rule. Many I am sure would like to flow back out of our few remaining "core" bases back to places like GLA, ABZ, the South West etc. many are only flying a jet out of BHX because that is where they were forced to go.
Likewise though, I think it is a little naive of some to think that just because the 190 was intended to replace the Flybee 146's, the 146 pilots will automatically go on it. I think the MD will tend to put these airframes into bases where they can be used most effectively. This will not necessarily mean that they will all be going to current Flybe bases.
Very sensible ideas. Just for info, due to many other previous company mergers takeovers and much past managment meddling it was decided that the various lists that were merged to form the BACX / bacon list were reset to contractual (continuous service date of joining). Once the lists were fianlly put together and accepted it was agreed that dates of joining would be removed to stop any more bitching abbout who worked for who and when. We just have a list of names in an agreed order.
Merging the two lists in contractual date of joining would perhaps be more correct, but I agree with you, there might be a tendency for this to favour one side due to differences in time served in each company.
Even though I could see that this might advantage me, I think you are right, we should keep it simple just merge these lists based on position only. 1,1 2,2, 3,3...
From our own experience in BAcon, luck and base counts for more sometimes than just seniority position. Some TP peope in Flybe may end up for a time on the Bacon jets if they move towards some of the larger Bacon bases. Flybe pilot should not understimate just how many Bacon pilots would be perfctly happy on a TP including many current Jet pilots - so long as the pay levels are sorted of course. Most of the big jet wannabees have already gone and done that now and most who have stayed simply want a proper regional lifestyle (not BA's potty touring rosters) and they will happily take a TP if it means getting back to their base that was slashed under BA rule. Many I am sure would like to flow back out of our few remaining "core" bases back to places like GLA, ABZ, the South West etc. many are only flying a jet out of BHX because that is where they were forced to go.
Likewise though, I think it is a little naive of some to think that just because the 190 was intended to replace the Flybee 146's, the 146 pilots will automatically go on it. I think the MD will tend to put these airframes into bases where they can be used most effectively. This will not necessarily mean that they will all be going to current Flybe bases.
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Some on this thread have a very distorted view on reality.
The reality is, BA Bacon employees have been thrown a lifeline by another employer, should they wish to grab that lifeline is up to them, however if they do it is to join an established and mature organisation. This is your only option. If flybe had not aquired your company you would be faced with redundancy at some point in the future, make no mistake, Bacon would have been dispanded, no question of that whatsoever.
Anyone who thinks they can dicate terms and conditions to their new employer will I imagine be shown the door pronto.
Good luck to those good people in Bacon who will see the light and accept the new terms and conditions, and their position on the bottom of the seniority list, although perhaps getting rid of seniority lists altogether might be a better idea.
The reality is, BA Bacon employees have been thrown a lifeline by another employer, should they wish to grab that lifeline is up to them, however if they do it is to join an established and mature organisation. This is your only option. If flybe had not aquired your company you would be faced with redundancy at some point in the future, make no mistake, Bacon would have been dispanded, no question of that whatsoever.
Anyone who thinks they can dicate terms and conditions to their new employer will I imagine be shown the door pronto.
Good luck to those good people in Bacon who will see the light and accept the new terms and conditions, and their position on the bottom of the seniority list, although perhaps getting rid of seniority lists altogether might be a better idea.
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Anybody know what flybe do regarding bonds. I heard a nightmare rumour yesterday that they bond for 3 years and the amount doesn't reduce overtime. Can anybody clarify this?
Thread Starter
Airlink Scotland,
Please go and buy yourself a basic Employment law book. One probable reason why BA was so keen to pay to have Flybe take Bacon off their hands is that they would otherwise have had some very complicated and potentially embarrsing issued to deal with, not least the need to reveal the BAcon, BAR and BA accounts to interested partes and the authorities. Thanks to five years of mismanagment, BAcon were already high scorers in the BA annual report for tribunal cases (mostly lost or settled).
BA / Bacon threw most of any potential profit into paying for lawyers to fight and generally lose cases against staff which could easily have been settled with a sensible discussion and a bit of give and take. Unless they are completely stupid, I canot imagine Flybe managment trying to twist and squirm their way around the many sensible laws which have been developed to protect workers from never ending attempts to errode terms and conditions.
Company mergers are very complex and the TUPE laws which have been developed to cover these situations are not ideal, but most tribunals will take a dim view of any major company which tries to blatantly avoid the meaning and intent of these rules. I have every faith in the ability of the staff reps, their many knowlgeable advisors and Flybe managment to sort this merger out sensibly without delay.
Please go and buy yourself a basic Employment law book. One probable reason why BA was so keen to pay to have Flybe take Bacon off their hands is that they would otherwise have had some very complicated and potentially embarrsing issued to deal with, not least the need to reveal the BAcon, BAR and BA accounts to interested partes and the authorities. Thanks to five years of mismanagment, BAcon were already high scorers in the BA annual report for tribunal cases (mostly lost or settled).
BA / Bacon threw most of any potential profit into paying for lawyers to fight and generally lose cases against staff which could easily have been settled with a sensible discussion and a bit of give and take. Unless they are completely stupid, I canot imagine Flybe managment trying to twist and squirm their way around the many sensible laws which have been developed to protect workers from never ending attempts to errode terms and conditions.
Company mergers are very complex and the TUPE laws which have been developed to cover these situations are not ideal, but most tribunals will take a dim view of any major company which tries to blatantly avoid the meaning and intent of these rules. I have every faith in the ability of the staff reps, their many knowlgeable advisors and Flybe managment to sort this merger out sensibly without delay.
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IT... ISN'T... A... MERGER!!!!!!!
When one company buys another (irrespective of how they pay for it), the rules are different. If you had read that basic employment law book, you would know that.
Anyone that thinks the BACON crews have any bargaining power whatsoever, is in for a nasty shock.
When one company buys another (irrespective of how they pay for it), the rules are different. If you had read that basic employment law book, you would know that.
Anyone that thinks the BACON crews have any bargaining power whatsoever, is in for a nasty shock.