FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
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Well, as far as I can tell, the only thing of any value that Flybe gets out of this deal, is the aircrew.
The main thing Flybe gets is customers. Instead of competing with BA Connect on similar routes, they will soon have a captive market and they can then increase their fares. This results in an increase in both passenger numbers and yields, which in itself results in bigger profits.
This is a business opportunity for Flybe, it's not simply a case of the directors buying their Flight Operations department 400 experienced pilots and some discounted aircraft leases.
Seniority will be a big issue. My concern for the BA Connect pilots is that this is a take-over. When CityFlyer was taken-over by BA, a number of CityFlyer pilots wanted a merged seniority list with BA. However, following legal advice they were told that BA did not have to do this as it wasn't a merger it was a take-over.
Good luck to everyone in BACon and Flybe.
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False Capture. What the company may be able to do legally is one question. What it will take to retain over fifty percent of BACON pilots who, to a man, are considering their career options elsewhere is another thing.
It may technically be a take over, but from where I am sitting, Flybe is just doubling its size. It is not a case of just tucking a small group of planes and pilots into the company. It is a huge root and branch expansion.
The project is dead in the water if it is approached on the basis that we will take any crap and be glad of it. If the attitude "To the Victor the spoils" prevails I am quite certain that we will all be out of here.
It may technically be a take over, but from where I am sitting, Flybe is just doubling its size. It is not a case of just tucking a small group of planes and pilots into the company. It is a huge root and branch expansion.
The project is dead in the water if it is approached on the basis that we will take any crap and be glad of it. If the attitude "To the Victor the spoils" prevails I am quite certain that we will all be out of here.
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Update
- TUPE will NOT apply as the deal with FLYBE is a ''Share Capital Deal'' ie Transfer by Share Takeover...when the company shares are sold to the new shareholders, there is no transfer of the business.
- Also BA Connect redundancy policy of double statutory is 'non-contractual' so when the company is sold by 31st December I believe the FLYBE redundancy policy applies. I know all the crew will be taken on but there will be duplication in other areas so people will be redundant. I've scanned everything to try and find FLYBE's redundancy policy but if someone could PM me.... would appreciate it!
- BA Connect staff are now classed as internal applicants with Mainline until 31st December..... not sure how this applies to aircrew.....
There is some concern as to whether FLYBE have got the gusto to take on all of this and whether they've have bitten off more than they can chew. For all our sakes, FLYBE and BA Connect, I pray it all works out but what happens when FLYBE is floated......BA increases the 15% stake to a buy-out and thank all for doing a better job of streamlining and cutting costs...
One other point. Local Westcountry news stated on Friday that FLYBE are not happy with the sale of EXT airport! Is there anything to stop them getting a compensation payout from Devon County Council and moving lock stock and barrel into BA Connect accommodation/hangars located in BHX and MAN???
Staff meetings this coming week should clarify a few more things as there are more questions than answers!!!
- Also BA Connect redundancy policy of double statutory is 'non-contractual' so when the company is sold by 31st December I believe the FLYBE redundancy policy applies. I know all the crew will be taken on but there will be duplication in other areas so people will be redundant. I've scanned everything to try and find FLYBE's redundancy policy but if someone could PM me.... would appreciate it!
- BA Connect staff are now classed as internal applicants with Mainline until 31st December..... not sure how this applies to aircrew.....
There is some concern as to whether FLYBE have got the gusto to take on all of this and whether they've have bitten off more than they can chew. For all our sakes, FLYBE and BA Connect, I pray it all works out but what happens when FLYBE is floated......BA increases the 15% stake to a buy-out and thank all for doing a better job of streamlining and cutting costs...
One other point. Local Westcountry news stated on Friday that FLYBE are not happy with the sale of EXT airport! Is there anything to stop them getting a compensation payout from Devon County Council and moving lock stock and barrel into BA Connect accommodation/hangars located in BHX and MAN???
Staff meetings this coming week should clarify a few more things as there are more questions than answers!!!
Last edited by Dash-7 lover; 5th Nov 2006 at 16:19.
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Firstly, I'm sorry that you've all been shafted like this.
Secondly, I'm sure most of my collegues will join me in wishing you all the best and for those that choose to join us will welcome you with open arms; at least we might stand a chance of having a bit of a life with more pilots on the books.
For those of you that don't want to join us, good luck to you. Just remember:
Easy and Ryan ARE looking for pilots, but preference will be given to A320 series/B737 qualified pilots, the younger the better. It also takes months to be given an interview.
The recruiting window for the Charter Airlines is probably closed until next summer and anyway you'll be in the RHS for years.
Anywhere else, you take your chance with every other wannabee and 5000 hrs on a 146 isn't necessarily going to get you into Virgin or Emirates any quicker. Furthermore, the upheaval in your family life might just not be worth it. You'll also be in the RHS for years.
Flybe may not be the greatest, but at least they've said they're going to give you a job. Maybe you need to draw several deep breaths and consider the future calmly and without paying too much attention to the b!"£$%^& that all too often fills these pages.
Whatever you decide to do, best wishes to you all.
Secondly, I'm sure most of my collegues will join me in wishing you all the best and for those that choose to join us will welcome you with open arms; at least we might stand a chance of having a bit of a life with more pilots on the books.
For those of you that don't want to join us, good luck to you. Just remember:
Easy and Ryan ARE looking for pilots, but preference will be given to A320 series/B737 qualified pilots, the younger the better. It also takes months to be given an interview.
The recruiting window for the Charter Airlines is probably closed until next summer and anyway you'll be in the RHS for years.
Anywhere else, you take your chance with every other wannabee and 5000 hrs on a 146 isn't necessarily going to get you into Virgin or Emirates any quicker. Furthermore, the upheaval in your family life might just not be worth it. You'll also be in the RHS for years.
Flybe may not be the greatest, but at least they've said they're going to give you a job. Maybe you need to draw several deep breaths and consider the future calmly and without paying too much attention to the b!"£$%^& that all too often fills these pages.
Whatever you decide to do, best wishes to you all.
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BH - You sound like a management pilot.
Lucky to have a job does not wash anymore. Either the combined company has decent terms and conditions (and yes we will probably lose some of the more farcical disruption payments) or it will end up with far fewer pig pilots than it thought. Then the company will find itself lucky to employ pilots....the 145s etc still have to be flown for the next 15 months until the leases expire...checkout the cost of disposing of them before then (BALPA have all the details).
Interesting link comparing company vital statistics.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...ices_Table.pdf
Lucky to have a job does not wash anymore. Either the combined company has decent terms and conditions (and yes we will probably lose some of the more farcical disruption payments) or it will end up with far fewer pig pilots than it thought. Then the company will find itself lucky to employ pilots....the 145s etc still have to be flown for the next 15 months until the leases expire...checkout the cost of disposing of them before then (BALPA have all the details).
Interesting link comparing company vital statistics.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...ices_Table.pdf
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RMC
No, I'm not a management pilot. Just a normal line pilot that's been f"£$%^ about as much as most.
I'm not sure what you mean by "pig" - I'm new to this regional stuff. Do you mean 146? Flybe doesn't need 146 pilots, it needs Q400 pilots, and lots of them. If all the jet pilots walk, I guess they'll just operate the routes they can, ie the ones that are profitable, and bin the rest.
In the future it's not going to be a combined company. It's going to be Flybe. What the T's and C's end up like is anyones guess - good I hope. But in the end that largely depends on how the 2 CC's negociate; ours on how you guys are absorbed and yours to cut the best deal for ex BA Connect pilots. A thankless task as there will always be someone out there that'll accuse them of not having their interests at heart.
I'm sure everyone in BA Connect wishes they'd been able to stay with what they had and the company had gone from strength to strength. However, WW decided that wasn't going to be and you all got screwed. Flybe's a business and they can be ruthless if need be. Ultimately, whatever the final outcome is, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll benefit them, and not necessarily you and me.
Best Regards,
BH
No, I'm not a management pilot. Just a normal line pilot that's been f"£$%^ about as much as most.
I'm not sure what you mean by "pig" - I'm new to this regional stuff. Do you mean 146? Flybe doesn't need 146 pilots, it needs Q400 pilots, and lots of them. If all the jet pilots walk, I guess they'll just operate the routes they can, ie the ones that are profitable, and bin the rest.
In the future it's not going to be a combined company. It's going to be Flybe. What the T's and C's end up like is anyones guess - good I hope. But in the end that largely depends on how the 2 CC's negociate; ours on how you guys are absorbed and yours to cut the best deal for ex BA Connect pilots. A thankless task as there will always be someone out there that'll accuse them of not having their interests at heart.
I'm sure everyone in BA Connect wishes they'd been able to stay with what they had and the company had gone from strength to strength. However, WW decided that wasn't going to be and you all got screwed. Flybe's a business and they can be ruthless if need be. Ultimately, whatever the final outcome is, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll benefit them, and not necessarily you and me.
Best Regards,
BH
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Goodbye Inv
ahhhhh! you poor poor pilots! you have such a hard time! yeah as if! count yourself lucky your not ground staff......From Dan Air to crappy BAR contracts handling a BA mainline service then BAX then BACON then at the end goodbye seeya.....looks likes the end of little inv.All i can say is good luck getting any sort of service from circus air as they will be the only handling company at inv and from what i can see in the past few years it`s not going ta be a good one......
GOOD LUCK to all the cabin crew at inv hope you all have a job at the end of the day cos i`m sure us peeps on the ground will be walking soon.I`ll miss my cuppa at 0630 at -10 de-icing G-OINV......
GOOD LUCK to all the cabin crew at inv hope you all have a job at the end of the day cos i`m sure us peeps on the ground will be walking soon.I`ll miss my cuppa at 0630 at -10 de-icing G-OINV......
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Planter
'Forget it.
There are other airlines out there. Why gamble with your future.
I'm off to a BHX baby interview.
A jet job with loads of prospects.'
Unless they choose to keep Mainline BMI and sell, merge or just plain give away baby
or both
Something has got to give at that one too.
There are other airlines out there. Why gamble with your future.
I'm off to a BHX baby interview.
A jet job with loads of prospects.'
Unless they choose to keep Mainline BMI and sell, merge or just plain give away baby
or both Something has got to give at that one too.
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Planter,
If Baby has got 'loads of prospects'; How come so many Baby pilots appear to be looking elsewhere?
There are too many airlines chasing the same pax to the same destinations, especially in the Midlands.
Something has gotta give!
Binder
If Baby has got 'loads of prospects'; How come so many Baby pilots appear to be looking elsewhere?
There are too many airlines chasing the same pax to the same destinations, especially in the Midlands.
Something has gotta give!
Binder
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From where I stand, the only thing that FLYBE are getting out of this deal is a pool of trained up pilots. So you can guarantee that all we've heard so far is the GOOD news in order to prevent the stampede for the door!
Personally, I'm not gonna hang around to see if with a bit of luck I might just possibly still be flying a jet in 6 months time.
My advice to my colleagues at BACON is get out while there's jobs out there!
Personally, I'm not gonna hang around to see if with a bit of luck I might just possibly still be flying a jet in 6 months time.
My advice to my colleagues at BACON is get out while there's jobs out there!
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Whether it will apply or not is just your opinion, Dash 7 lover, and the share transaction may or may not be relevant in this case; Unless you happen to be an employment tribunal chairman, it might be fairer if you dont present opinions as facts; leave that for the tribunal. - The routes formerly flown by BACon will be flown by Flybe - that sounds like a transfer of undertaking to me, irrespective of share dealings. There seems to be a bit of wishful thinking amongst some Flybe pilots here that BACon pilots will have to be happy with what they're given and are firmly held below present Flybe pilots.
If the terms of BACon pilots are degraded in the transfer, I would strongly suggest seeking the services of BALPA or IPAs legal services, and if necessary seek enforcement at a tribunal.
If the terms of BACon pilots are degraded in the transfer, I would strongly suggest seeking the services of BALPA or IPAs legal services, and if necessary seek enforcement at a tribunal.
I am not going to speculate here, mainly because I am not holding a cristal ball in my hands and I have NO IDEA what the future is holding for the two companies, but I want to wish the wonderful people of BAcon at MAN good luck in their future endeavours. I have never work with such good bunch.
To the 146 guys in MAN, thanks a lot for making this job fun...I am not longer staying at BAcon, but I will remember you all...
Take care and truly hope everything works well for you all....
And good look dealing with BALPA.......could be tricky
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fred,thumper has replied to your post.
so does anyone have any idea about whether it will actually be a TUPE transfer or not?the letter we received from the company yesterday is confusing,BA Connect will still exist and we will still be employed by them,so will there be a time when eventually we have to sign over to Flybe?
so does anyone have any idea about whether it will actually be a TUPE transfer or not?the letter we received from the company yesterday is confusing,BA Connect will still exist and we will still be employed by them,so will there be a time when eventually we have to sign over to Flybe?
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baby is growing
To the doubters out there.
Just because flybe is "expanding" you don't imagine baby getting back into it's cot do you?
Baby is gonna be 12 aircraft by the end of next year in BHX. It's got a brilliant identity and is favourite with the public.
The aircraft are 737. How that compares with the dash/emb is obvious.
I'm heading for baby, I've had enough nonsense and speculation.
I'm heading for 'relative' safety.
Planter
Just because flybe is "expanding" you don't imagine baby getting back into it's cot do you?
Baby is gonna be 12 aircraft by the end of next year in BHX. It's got a brilliant identity and is favourite with the public.
The aircraft are 737. How that compares with the dash/emb is obvious.
I'm heading for baby, I've had enough nonsense and speculation.
I'm heading for 'relative' safety.
Planter
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so far as all this TUPE/share sale etc.stuff is concerned someone who knows about these things explained it to me very simply.
Flybe is buying (ha ha! should have said been paid to take) all the share capital of BAcon.
So immediately after the transfer our legal employer remains exactly the same and all the contracts and agreements we have in place with BAcon have to be honoured.....pay, terms and conditions etc. Non contractual things like staff travel etc are a different matter.
at some stage in the (near I suspect) future Flybe will want to integrate the business totally into their operation and give us new contracts with new terms and conditions including a new seniority order where both groups are fully integrated. Clearly the terms of those new contracts will be something keenly negotiated by our Balpa reps, but I understnd that tupe WILL APPLY when this integration process takes place as it is the business and undertaking of BAcon which is THEN being transferred to Flybe.
Therefore Flybe cannot just tear up our Bacon contracts and expect us to sign up to lesser terms without facing the full wrath of employment tribunals and the courts.
As a group standing together within Balpa BAcon pilots actualy are in a position to significantly influence the terms that are offered as the law does give us significant protection.
I am sure that Flybe big shots will be reading this. At the moment we are mostly prepared to be open minded but Id say that you have a very short time within which to make a good first impression, because from what I hear just about everyone is putting out CVs elsewhere.
We have been lied to so much and bull****ted to so much that every one of us can spot dishonesty and bull from a mile. Whatever you do, give it to us straight or you'll get the instant and terminal disrespect
that is enjoyed by our David Evans and his fellow jokers.above all give us your main man to talk to, not (intending no insult) one of his sidekicks.
FACT
Flybe is buying (ha ha! should have said been paid to take) all the share capital of BAcon.
So immediately after the transfer our legal employer remains exactly the same and all the contracts and agreements we have in place with BAcon have to be honoured.....pay, terms and conditions etc. Non contractual things like staff travel etc are a different matter.
at some stage in the (near I suspect) future Flybe will want to integrate the business totally into their operation and give us new contracts with new terms and conditions including a new seniority order where both groups are fully integrated. Clearly the terms of those new contracts will be something keenly negotiated by our Balpa reps, but I understnd that tupe WILL APPLY when this integration process takes place as it is the business and undertaking of BAcon which is THEN being transferred to Flybe.
Therefore Flybe cannot just tear up our Bacon contracts and expect us to sign up to lesser terms without facing the full wrath of employment tribunals and the courts.
As a group standing together within Balpa BAcon pilots actualy are in a position to significantly influence the terms that are offered as the law does give us significant protection.
I am sure that Flybe big shots will be reading this. At the moment we are mostly prepared to be open minded but Id say that you have a very short time within which to make a good first impression, because from what I hear just about everyone is putting out CVs elsewhere.
We have been lied to so much and bull****ted to so much that every one of us can spot dishonesty and bull from a mile. Whatever you do, give it to us straight or you'll get the instant and terminal disrespect
that is enjoyed by our David Evans and his fellow jokers.above all give us your main man to talk to, not (intending no insult) one of his sidekicks.
FACT
Last edited by Noiffsorbuts; 5th Nov 2006 at 10:34.
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Well as I see it,and when all's said and done it doesn't look like I'll be keeping my job come next March, this has to be considered a 'hostile' manoevre,(when I studied Economics, 'twas de riguer to announce bad news on a Friday and good news on a Monday).
Now according to the crib sheet on t'intranet, we will still be employed by BA Connect, not Flybe.
I surmise that BA Connect will become BA Connect T/a (trading as) a Flybe company. This means there will be no need for things like common seniority lists' or redundancy packages,as current BA Connect T&C will apply. This will last until the current fleet have gone, then, maybe you may get offered an interview with Flybe, which is the same as current practice n'est pas?
IMHO this is all being done to avoid TUPE, but, anyway all that would have to be claimed is that the changes were for Economic,Technical or Organisational reasons....and with no planes to fly ..or fix.. last one out please feed the cat and cancel the milk.
More TUPE info here
http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/empla...tm?IsSrchRes=1
ttfn
Now according to the crib sheet on t'intranet, we will still be employed by BA Connect, not Flybe.
I surmise that BA Connect will become BA Connect T/a (trading as) a Flybe company. This means there will be no need for things like common seniority lists' or redundancy packages,as current BA Connect T&C will apply. This will last until the current fleet have gone, then, maybe you may get offered an interview with Flybe, which is the same as current practice n'est pas?
IMHO this is all being done to avoid TUPE, but, anyway all that would have to be claimed is that the changes were for Economic,Technical or Organisational reasons....and with no planes to fly ..or fix.. last one out please feed the cat and cancel the milk.
More TUPE info here
http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/empla...tm?IsSrchRes=1
ttfn
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Meeting
MidnightCruiser - Im not an expert in industrial law but I am a staff rep now responsible for finding 40 of my tearful and stunned colleagues, including myself, employment in one form or another with whoever. I know this is a pilot forum and I'm not a pilot but I thought I would share some info that I've come across and spent all weekend researching as my phone's been ringing off the hook.
We we're all aware that there would be an end to this in one form or another but just not so soon. THE PLAN - MAKE MONEY/SOLD OFF or CLOSED DOWN - that was it!
Final note - there is a BCCG (BA Connect Consultative Group) meeting with WW on Tue 7th along with representatives from all the Unions and management to thrash out the finer points of what this means for ALL.
We we're all aware that there would be an end to this in one form or another but just not so soon. THE PLAN - MAKE MONEY/SOLD OFF or CLOSED DOWN - that was it!
Final note - there is a BCCG (BA Connect Consultative Group) meeting with WW on Tue 7th along with representatives from all the Unions and management to thrash out the finer points of what this means for ALL.
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MidnightCruiser - Im not an expert in industrial law but I am a staff rep now responsible for finding 40 of my tearful and stunned colleagues,
Final note - there is a BCCG (BA Connect Consultative Group) meeting with WW on Tue 7th along with representatives from all the Unions and management to thrash out the finer points of what this means for ALL.
Final note - there is a BCCG (BA Connect Consultative Group) meeting with WW on Tue 7th along with representatives from all the Unions and management to thrash out the finer points of what this means for ALL.
I crashed my car one morning after a night shift which i was hurt enough to HAVE to stay away from it all (quacks orders) and I believe that had I not the whole 40 people losing there jobs thing would of probably killed me.
Make sure you have some one else who can share YOUR problems with, dont keep it inside like it did, it ruined me and my life for a year - depression wasnt the word
I know that you have one or two individuals with you who played this game with me last time, dont go down with out a fight... even if the "managers" answer every question you pose with a question....
I hope that the unions do better with you than they did us. I dont think that I actually made any difference to the proceedings, just made life harder for myself. and made the upper management look like they were doing the right thing.
I wish you, "the team in your broom cupoboard" the guy girls out in the open plan and every one else that connected to that place I once loved!!
the very best of luck!PS... I still have the Horse!!!
BB
Last edited by OE-HBB; 5th Nov 2006 at 16:53. Reason: Correcting incorrect context