FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
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I would tend to agree with remoak. I hope that the 2 companies can be harmonised with minimal grief to all concerned but make no mistake, Flybe are in the driving seat here. The CEO is no fan of pilots either. Good luck to all concerned.
Thread Starter
We will see.
A certain Ops Director at Manx airlines adopted a similar approach to yours when they took over a large chunk of Loganair. This was in the days before staff represntation when he declared himself to be a "benevolent dictator". He unilateraly decided to stick all the Logan people below the Manxies and as a result, the vast majority of the Logans sad FU, I'm off. The result - the new company picked up a massive multi million pound trainng bill and a lot of chaos and disruption as they tried to replace all the pilots they thought they would be getting.
I doubt that Flybe managment will be that stupid. Sensible pragmatic negotiations with a bit of give and take all round will be the order of the day if they want it all sorted by April.
A certain Ops Director at Manx airlines adopted a similar approach to yours when they took over a large chunk of Loganair. This was in the days before staff represntation when he declared himself to be a "benevolent dictator". He unilateraly decided to stick all the Logan people below the Manxies and as a result, the vast majority of the Logans sad FU, I'm off. The result - the new company picked up a massive multi million pound trainng bill and a lot of chaos and disruption as they tried to replace all the pilots they thought they would be getting.
I doubt that Flybe managment will be that stupid. Sensible pragmatic negotiations with a bit of give and take all round will be the order of the day if they want it all sorted by April.
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Remoak, too much noise and too much wishful thinking on your part.
The purchase of the Bacon shares by Flybe might not be subject to TUPE but the business merger and amalgamation of work forces and routes thereafter sure as hell are.
Flybe cannot dictate non-negotiated terms to ex Bacon workers which limit any of their pre existing contractual rights.
There are some non contractual areas such as staff travel where we dont have any statutory negotiating power, but you delude yourself if you think we will take anything that is thrown at us and be glad of it. I also do not think for one moment that your management would be stupid enough to expect us to do so as I cant see them wanting to spend fortunes being distracted by Industrial tribunals.
Pragamatism and good sense all round will see a satisfactory conclusion for all and it is good to hear the positive noises coming from the two CCs.
The purchase of the Bacon shares by Flybe might not be subject to TUPE but the business merger and amalgamation of work forces and routes thereafter sure as hell are.
Flybe cannot dictate non-negotiated terms to ex Bacon workers which limit any of their pre existing contractual rights.
There are some non contractual areas such as staff travel where we dont have any statutory negotiating power, but you delude yourself if you think we will take anything that is thrown at us and be glad of it. I also do not think for one moment that your management would be stupid enough to expect us to do so as I cant see them wanting to spend fortunes being distracted by Industrial tribunals.
Pragamatism and good sense all round will see a satisfactory conclusion for all and it is good to hear the positive noises coming from the two CCs.
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Just a thought - but does flyBe actually need all BACon's pilots? FlyBe expect around another 40 airframes, at 4.5 crews per frame (probably generous) = 180 pilots plus present shortfall, say 50, plus natural future wastage, another 50, gives 280. OK, let's say 300 against a current BACon strength of 450. Just a thought.
Thread Starter
Max reheat,
Unlikely to be a problem as a good 50-100 are already serving their notice or are about to resign with many facing the diffcult decision of having to choose between three or four offers.
Little prince,
If you are a true BRAL and ex Manxer as you imply, would you be willing to answer a few verification questions without phoning a friend?
Unlikely to be a problem as a good 50-100 are already serving their notice or are about to resign with many facing the diffcult decision of having to choose between three or four offers.
Little prince,
If you are a true BRAL and ex Manxer as you imply, would you be willing to answer a few verification questions without phoning a friend?
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Max Reheat
Just a wee correction to your figures - 4.5 crews x 40 aircraft = 360 pilots, not 180, so by your sums flybe need all of bacons pilots and more. There are some of our list working their notice to head off to pastures new, secondees returning to big BA, plus the pilots required to fly the 'new' RJ100 LCY operation to be taken into account, so I guess flybe will be recruiting heavily for some time to come.
Just a wee correction to your figures - 4.5 crews x 40 aircraft = 360 pilots, not 180, so by your sums flybe need all of bacons pilots and more. There are some of our list working their notice to head off to pastures new, secondees returning to big BA, plus the pilots required to fly the 'new' RJ100 LCY operation to be taken into account, so I guess flybe will be recruiting heavily for some time to come.
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2+2=5
There’s some very strange arithmetic in the above posts. Anyway, FlyBe, please, please, please can I keep my 60K salary and sensible rostering. Still haven’t heard anything definite from anyone yet. Perhaps it’s time to start another rumour.
Thread Starter
Just a slight correction to my post above ref the Manx Ops Director. I have done a little research and it would appear that he was off on long term sick at the time so wasn't directly responsible for the Logan Manx merger farce. It seems that his deputies at the time were the ones who created the expensive mess. Some of the current Bacon managers were around at the time, and I don't think any of them tried to do anything about correcting it, but with a bit of luck, they will have learnt from this and wil not suggest or try such a thing again. Hopefully they will have mentioned this little part of history to their counterparts in Flybe.
Last edited by biddedout; 9th Nov 2006 at 15:46.
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Some interesting info on here but still nothing concrete from the company. I wonder whether any Buzz crew have an opinion about staying on old t & c's.
On a brighter note, maybe we could have a shake up of our CC, 4% doesn't really float my boat.
The other thread mentions redundancy pay, if other pay proposals are anything to go by it will be large pay outs for any of the positions that the CC members are in.
On a brighter note, maybe we could have a shake up of our CC, 4% doesn't really float my boat.
The other thread mentions redundancy pay, if other pay proposals are anything to go by it will be large pay outs for any of the positions that the CC members are in.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Anotherflapoperator,
I'm not entirely sure that sorting both seniority lists by DOJ is going to be fair on the Flybe crews. If, as I suspect, the BACon seniority list is a lot more top heavy than the Flybe one this will be unfair to the Flybe lot.
I think a simple merging, one of ours then one of yours, although not ideal, would be far more suitable. Provided that the proportion of crew to aeroplanes, jets to turbo props, stays roughly the same. Your relative position on the list stays the same despite your seniority number doubling.
Boobie,
You could have had a hat if you wanted one!
I'm not entirely sure that sorting both seniority lists by DOJ is going to be fair on the Flybe crews. If, as I suspect, the BACon seniority list is a lot more top heavy than the Flybe one this will be unfair to the Flybe lot.
I think a simple merging, one of ours then one of yours, although not ideal, would be far more suitable. Provided that the proportion of crew to aeroplanes, jets to turbo props, stays roughly the same. Your relative position on the list stays the same despite your seniority number doubling.
Boobie,
You could have had a hat if you wanted one!
Rebel PPRuNer
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re: Flybe speeding up fleet renewal.
Don't know what Emb's 19x line is like but I read recently that Porter's delivery dates for BBD Q400 have slipped to the right due to the demand pressure on the line. Either that or the canny Bob Deluce has taken a few bob in order to relax the schedule in favour of operators needing a/c fast perhaps?
Don't know what Emb's 19x line is like but I read recently that Porter's delivery dates for BBD Q400 have slipped to the right due to the demand pressure on the line. Either that or the canny Bob Deluce has taken a few bob in order to relax the schedule in favour of operators needing a/c fast perhaps?
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It's becoming clear that this 'move' by BA is more of a mass withdrawal from the regions than a simple attempt to pay Flybe to take Connect.
Although it seems to have been missed by the press, as the situation becomes more clear, it seems that BA will now:
1. Close BHX as a base losing about 400 posts and any presence at BHX
2. Although all the Connect flights will be 'Flybe'd', they will put out to tender the handling of the remaining 'shuttle' flights at the other 'outstations'.
Thus NO BA staff at MAN, EDI, GLA, ABZ, INV, BHX , NEW, etc.
In other words it seems like the bulk of redundancies will be non-BACon BA staff.
Any idea how many will lose their jobs?
Although it seems to have been missed by the press, as the situation becomes more clear, it seems that BA will now:
1. Close BHX as a base losing about 400 posts and any presence at BHX
2. Although all the Connect flights will be 'Flybe'd', they will put out to tender the handling of the remaining 'shuttle' flights at the other 'outstations'.
Thus NO BA staff at MAN, EDI, GLA, ABZ, INV, BHX , NEW, etc.
In other words it seems like the bulk of redundancies will be non-BACon BA staff.
Any idea how many will lose their jobs?
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Good luck to you all at BACON!
A link from the manx press yesterday
http://www.iomonline.co.im/ViewArtic...icleID=1872427
A link from the manx press yesterday
http://www.iomonline.co.im/ViewArtic...icleID=1872427
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I wish you all at FLYBE and BACON all the best with this, any takeover / merger is difficult and will need maturity on both sides to forfill a reasonable result, any attempts at one upmanship or bullying from either side eg "just go to the bottom of the list" will breed long term resentment and will be extreemly damaging. The ex Airuk / KLMuk / Buzz / KLCuk / and now some KLM guys have seen this bitter fighting for some years now and the damage and bitterness has been dreadful. Please guys learn by the mistake of others.....
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BA's CON
I still remember the countless number of times when Tim the To$$er wrote in his monthly newsletters how FLYBE would never survive in the regions!!
Dentalfloss - eat my shorts!
Dentalfloss - eat my shorts!
If its any consolation I was gutted when told easyJet had bought Go. It all worked out well though, resulting in a bigger more stable more commercially successful employer, with all that brings. I think the Flybe thing will bring about the same result. I hope it is as painless as it can be for all involved.
Cheers
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Cheers
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Little prince,
If you are a true BRAL and ex Manxer as you imply, would you be willing to answer a few verification questions without phoning a friend?
Be delighted to answer whatever questions you want to ask!
BTW, I was around at the LC takeover, and while people did leave, the vast majority stayed, whinging and moaning about KM's management (ha ha)methods, however we stayed. Eventually, things changed, and although some Manxies never could get over it, I guess we got our way - took about 6 years though. To suggest Manx had to wind their necks in at all during the takeover is simply untrue, they had the whip hand, and did pretty much as they liked. Hutch etc was not a manager then, to be fair Manx did make lots of money, and was pretty successful and largely content - yes, Norm was a dictator, Norm was very arrogant, and Norm was an out and out bully - but I repeat, the airline made money, and few voted with their feet 'cos Ts and Cs were pretty fair by Industry standards. I can assure you that Jim will be no different. He and the board will only be interested in the bottom line, and only interested in the Ts and Cs insofar as they keep sufficient pilots to maintain a profitable bottom line. That's no different to Terry L. Any doubters about the way business works should ignore the fact that Terry was a 'nice guy' with a triple issue of people skills. He was a businessman. Use the legal argument - Qui Bono from the floatation and subsequent sale. The Bish, TRPL and Norm - that was about it. BA got the LHR slots, and we all got stuffed. Don't think JF is any different.
It may well be there will be some sort of seniority deal, but I have it from Capt. Cheddar himself that no Flybe pilot will be disadvantaged by the move. The last thing is that those who remember the LC/Manx takeover should remember how long it took for things to settle down. Bases/types/personnel all moved around quite a lot, I don't believe we have seen anything resembling a final plan yet, so don't expect that just because you're a senior 146 oik with ten years in that that guarantees you ANYTHING!!!!! The Baconeers are all very welcome, they will add value to the company, but.....they have been BOUGHT, there Company may not be protected by TUPE, and they should definitely not expect to come dicatating ANYTHING! I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's business. It was no differrent for Air UK, no different for Buzz, and it will be no different for BACON. Really sorry if that offends, nothing personal, I'm not really even the messenger, just the guy waving a cup of java under your collective noses. If you really wanted to achieve anything, you should all get behind BALPA and threaten to strike, but you (and me) took all the sh1t for years from that idiot Hutch and his mates and did nothing. Even when we had a positive ballot result, we did nothing meaningfful.
I predict:
Those who can will leave. This will be people with enough experience for an EZY/Rynair type slot, where such a/c are based where they live, or who are single and have no ties so can move.
Some few will try and commute to their new base, hoping against hope that the EDI operation will be absorbed into BA and they will finally get into mainline. Dreamers. This will be a death by slow strangulation, and will be performed by the same people who gave you the current mess.
Most of the rest will whinge, complain, threaten but take the stick in their @rses and accept life. There will be some friction, but eventually things will settle down again, and due to the relatively high turnover here at Flybe, within few (3 - 5) years, the people who can cut it will again have regional jet jobs. The rest will continue on the Dash, earning a reasonable cut for a reasonable job. The bitterness against BA will take a generation to go away.
Finally, with ref my good friend Captain Edam - he's an absolutely top bloke, as are all my management team, who will be looking out for my interests over the coming months.
If you are a true BRAL and ex Manxer as you imply, would you be willing to answer a few verification questions without phoning a friend?
Be delighted to answer whatever questions you want to ask!
BTW, I was around at the LC takeover, and while people did leave, the vast majority stayed, whinging and moaning about KM's management (ha ha)methods, however we stayed. Eventually, things changed, and although some Manxies never could get over it, I guess we got our way - took about 6 years though. To suggest Manx had to wind their necks in at all during the takeover is simply untrue, they had the whip hand, and did pretty much as they liked. Hutch etc was not a manager then, to be fair Manx did make lots of money, and was pretty successful and largely content - yes, Norm was a dictator, Norm was very arrogant, and Norm was an out and out bully - but I repeat, the airline made money, and few voted with their feet 'cos Ts and Cs were pretty fair by Industry standards. I can assure you that Jim will be no different. He and the board will only be interested in the bottom line, and only interested in the Ts and Cs insofar as they keep sufficient pilots to maintain a profitable bottom line. That's no different to Terry L. Any doubters about the way business works should ignore the fact that Terry was a 'nice guy' with a triple issue of people skills. He was a businessman. Use the legal argument - Qui Bono from the floatation and subsequent sale. The Bish, TRPL and Norm - that was about it. BA got the LHR slots, and we all got stuffed. Don't think JF is any different.
It may well be there will be some sort of seniority deal, but I have it from Capt. Cheddar himself that no Flybe pilot will be disadvantaged by the move. The last thing is that those who remember the LC/Manx takeover should remember how long it took for things to settle down. Bases/types/personnel all moved around quite a lot, I don't believe we have seen anything resembling a final plan yet, so don't expect that just because you're a senior 146 oik with ten years in that that guarantees you ANYTHING!!!!! The Baconeers are all very welcome, they will add value to the company, but.....they have been BOUGHT, there Company may not be protected by TUPE, and they should definitely not expect to come dicatating ANYTHING! I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's business. It was no differrent for Air UK, no different for Buzz, and it will be no different for BACON. Really sorry if that offends, nothing personal, I'm not really even the messenger, just the guy waving a cup of java under your collective noses. If you really wanted to achieve anything, you should all get behind BALPA and threaten to strike, but you (and me) took all the sh1t for years from that idiot Hutch and his mates and did nothing. Even when we had a positive ballot result, we did nothing meaningfful.
I predict:
Those who can will leave. This will be people with enough experience for an EZY/Rynair type slot, where such a/c are based where they live, or who are single and have no ties so can move.
Some few will try and commute to their new base, hoping against hope that the EDI operation will be absorbed into BA and they will finally get into mainline. Dreamers. This will be a death by slow strangulation, and will be performed by the same people who gave you the current mess.
Most of the rest will whinge, complain, threaten but take the stick in their @rses and accept life. There will be some friction, but eventually things will settle down again, and due to the relatively high turnover here at Flybe, within few (3 - 5) years, the people who can cut it will again have regional jet jobs. The rest will continue on the Dash, earning a reasonable cut for a reasonable job. The bitterness against BA will take a generation to go away.
Finally, with ref my good friend Captain Edam - he's an absolutely top bloke, as are all my management team, who will be looking out for my interests over the coming months.
When you casually bracket together EZY/Ryan I object.
One is a UK PLC with a well respected Board listed on the LSE which recognises BALPA and works under the aegis of UK employment law and offers a (soon to be improved under current negotiation we hope) 5 on 3 off 5 on 4 off roster. Industrial tribunals and court cases don't happen plus the CEO and the Flight Ops Director were in my crewroom within the last month wanting to explain the business plan, to listen to crews opinions and gripes and were seen taking notes.
The other is Ryanair.
Cheers
WWW
One is a UK PLC with a well respected Board listed on the LSE which recognises BALPA and works under the aegis of UK employment law and offers a (soon to be improved under current negotiation we hope) 5 on 3 off 5 on 4 off roster. Industrial tribunals and court cases don't happen plus the CEO and the Flight Ops Director were in my crewroom within the last month wanting to explain the business plan, to listen to crews opinions and gripes and were seen taking notes.
The other is Ryanair.
Cheers
WWW